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As far as allies go, the only one I've tried was Be'lakor. My bad play and some very bad luck ended up gimping me, so I didn't really get to see what he could do. I'll be interested to see how Renegade Knights do as allies with KDK.

Anyone else thinking of adding a Renegade Knight to the mix? Between Hounds, the D-thirster and an angry Knight running up the table, the threat saturation is getting a bit silly.

Fitting all the stuff in for the points is the hard part .

Also the daemon knight of khorne has a lot of benefits over the renegade knight. But is a good deal more points.

Chaos Knight seems better fit for Daemonkin no?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Chaos_Knight.pdf

-BFTBG + Daemon Knight of Khorne seems pretty good

or are people put off by forgeworld/experimental rules?

I think ITC allows them though

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Chaos Knight seems better fit for Daemonkin no?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Chaos_Knight.pdf

-BFTBG + Daemon Knight of Khorne seems pretty good

or are people put off by forgeworld/experimental rules?

I think ITC allows them though

The Khorne one is absolutely badass. Extra attacks on the charge? Rerolling stomps? Excellent...

I'm actually making my Renegade Knight more "Chaosy" and magnetising to give me the option to run as renegade or Chaos Knight.

They both have a place imo

Played a game last night 1850 Daemonkin vs Salamanders.

He was running something like this:

Tac squad, flamer
Sniper scouts
Sternguard
Vindicator
Devastators with 4 lascannons
Grav Centurions
Ironclad dread with 2 flamers
Normal dread
Stormtalon
2 Landspeeders with double flamers
Knight with the large gattling cannon and chainsword

His HQ was I think the Captain from the Badab wars that gets bonuses in challenges - he put him in with the Grav Cents.

I was running a large slaughtercult + gorepack:

D thirster

Slaughtercult:

Juggerlord with Goredrinker (Warlord)
2x 8-man Berzerkers with poweraxe, meltabombs, plasma pistol, rhino
3x 8 Bloodletters with champ
2x 1 Spawn
2x 8 Cultists
5 Possessed in rhino (wrathmonger models so they look really cool)
Gorepack:
2 squads of melta bikers
8 Hounds

We rolled and ended up playing long-way on the board and basic maelstrom, night fighting in effect, Daemonkin place/go first.

There were atleast 6 GW ruins placed around the board so decent cover, a temple of skulls in the middle and a set of the craters spread around.

I placed cultists on 2 back objectives, bloodletters in reserves and the rest of the slaughtercult + gorepack spread left to right along the 12" line from the center.

He placed everything spread out fairly evenly, scouts in ruins, speeders and stormtalon in reserve. His centurions and knight were together on his right side.

I scouted the Juggerlord with hounds ontop of the temple of skulls in the middle starting the game sitting on 4 objectives.

Then the fun began.

He rolled and...stole the initiative - doh.

Salamanders Turn 1

He moved everything up a little. Popped one of the berzerker rhinos with the lascannon devastators and fired almost everything else (vindicator, knight, grav cents) at the hound star killing 6 hounds (we play the temple of skulls as dangerous-terrain ruins plus night fighting gave them 3+ cover), taking a wound off the Juggerlord and killing 2 bikers. Not as bad as I thought it would go.

Daemonkin Turn 1

D-Thirster takes to the air and flies straight toward the knight. Everything else runs/moves flat out (rhinos) forward (except the cultists). Juggerlord with remaining 2 hounds move sideways and back a little behind a spawn since the Ironclad is coming their way. Almost no shooting.

Salamanders Turn 2

Pretty much same as last turn - more shooting. Flamer landspeeder deepstrikes next to the footslogging berzerkers and reduces them down to 3 guys (double heavy flamer salamander landspeeders are nasty). Kills off the 1 remaining biker from the unit before. Stormtalon comes on to shoot the other melta biker unit but I make all my saves (no jinking required). He pops the remaining 2 rhinos and kills 1 spawn and takes some wounds off the other. The other flamer landspeeder lands beside one of the cultists units and fries them all.

Daemonkin Turn 2

2 Bloodletter units deepstrike in his back lines, 1 misshaps back into reserves. Blood tithe summons bloodcrushers near his knight and grav cents and gives slaughtercult feel-no-pain. Meltabikers pop a landspeeder. Juggerlord, 2 hounds and the 3 berzerkers (long 10" charge for them) charge the tactial squad killing all but 1. D-Thirster lands in an attempt to line up an assault on the knight. Possessed move towards his sternguard and vindicator. 10 man berzerker squad moves toward his knight (tried to use them and the bloodcrushers to stop his knight from moving around).

Salamanders Turn 3

His knight and lascannon devs kill the D-thirster (doh). He only kills 1 possessed between the vindicator and sternguard. He sends a landspeeder to an objective. Stormtalon only kills 2 meltabikers. Grav Cents kill all the Bloodcrushers. He splits his captain off from the Grav Cents back toward a bloodletter unit and assaults them by himself - killing half of them. His ironclad moves back toward the other bloodletter unit roasting them all. Hounds, Juggerlord and 3 berzerkers killoff the last tactical and consolidate toward his lascannon devs (3 berzerkers) and his captain (Juggerlord and 2 hounds).

Daemonkin Turn 3

Last bloodletter unit arrives and is placed in the backfield. Bloodtithe turns the cultist champ into a Bloodthirster (except for the Juggerlord hes the only mortal champion left) which isn't too useful since hes in my backfield, bloodtithe also gives slaughtercult +1 attack.

Amazingly, the lonely meltabiker hits the stormtalon with a 6 (he didn't jink cause he thought no chance) then pens it, gets immobalized result and then makes the roll to destroy the zooming flyer - so awesome he earns MVP here (I also had the maelstrom card to destroy a flier). The 3 berzerks assault the 5 lascannon devastators killing 3 of them and taking no casualties (they were pissed they had to footslog this whole way and wanted revenge for their rhino).

The 8 berzerkers assault the knight taking 1 HP off with the meltabomb but losing most of them. The 4 possessed charge the sternguard, roll and get the +1 attack and init so they attack first (with 6 attacks each from +1 attack also from bloodtithe combined with rage) and kill all the sternguard.

The Juggerlord and hounds charge the captain that is still fighting a couple bloodletters - the Juggerlord challenges him and kills him in 1 attack (taking no wounds) and earning slay the worlord (I also had the maelstrom card to kill the warlord).

Salamanders Turn 4 - we decide this will be the last turn since its getting late

Things aren't looking too good for the salamanders at this point. He tries sending his ironclad to assault an objective that he needs to cash in all 3 of his maelstrom cards. To get it he needs to 7" assault my biker sitting on the objective (from where he shot down the stormtalon) but he fails the charge. The knight kills the Juggerlord finally.

Daemonkin Turn 4

Not much to do at this point, just move around and collect a few more cards and count up the game.

Daemonkin victory 12 to 6! (This makes me happy, I usually lose 3/4 times)

Takeaway:

-Bloodthirster is hard to position and survive to assault (massive fire magnet)

-3 Footslogging berzerkers can make it across the board to assault devs at the back (using long charges and consolidation to slingshot forward)

-Weird things will happen (biker shoots down stormtalon)

-The knight is scary but not super great at taking objectives

-having lots of bloodletter units deepstrike makes for a good distraction

-even though you will lose 3/4 of your army to shooting in the first 2 turns, when you assault, between rage and +1 attack from bloodtithe, you will get many many more attacks than you opponent in close combat allowing you to mop up in the assault phases for turns 3+

-possessed with 6 attacks each at str 6 is really funny (especially when noone expects much from them)

Nice batrep! Sounds like a fun game! I'll comment on your takeaway points:
-You're definitely right about the D-thirster, he is hard to get in a position to do anything. But when he does get to attack something, he absolutely kills it. I sometimes wonder if his best use is as a "distraction Carnifex" to take the fire off of your other units.

-Having that berserker unit down to 3 guys may have been the key to them making it across. It's easy for an opponent to ignore just 3 guys, whereas if there were like 8 of them they would have drawn more fire. Either way it sounds like you played pretty smart with them.

-The thing with the melta bike shooting down the Stormtalon reminds me of a time when I had a Ravenwing Attack bike shoot down a Flyrant (to be fair that Flyrant was already on its last wound). It's always fun when stuff like that happens!

-I pretty much just ignore Knights when I face them, because like you said they are not good for objective taking. They are extremely tough to take down, especially in melee. In your game, your D-thirster was your best shot at killing the Knight, which is why he focused it down.

-I agree about the Bloodletters deepstriking, that's how I always run mine. If they get into combat with MEQ they will wreck face, meaning your opponent HAS to do something about them. Giving them FnP is always nice! Flesh Hounds work great for this too and are slightly more durable, with the only downside being the lack of AP3.

-Daemonkin are super strong in the Assault phase of the game, but they have to survive a lot of shooting to reach combat. The great equalizer as far as losing all those units is the wonderful Blood Tithe table, as unlike many armies Daemonkin can replace losses.

-I think Possessed are under-appreciated. They are very much like Warp Talons in that they are squishy but when they make it into combat they can absolutely destroy almost anything except walkers. Rage + Furious Charge is nasty!

That Salamanders list VERY all over the place. Not to mention that they put the worst possible character in the Centurion squad.

So with the new FAQ from GW we get:

- Conjured or summoned Bloodthirsters can be swooping or gliding when brought in.

but we lost melta grenade attacks on our bikes (now only 1 attack).

Did we have more than 1 melta bomb before now? Thought it was just the champ.

The bloodthirster has got beeetttterrr. Arrive gliding. Allied psykers can use possession to bring in gliding KDK bloodthirsters and you can choose which type.

Some Flyers losing skyfire (and shriek auto hitting, therefore no longer being able to hit swoopers) means a bit more survivable swooping, but I don't see bloodthirsters swooping much.

Downside. No more deploying in allied transports. I which fw would faq what kdk get already cos I can't ride in an allied dreadclaw no more.

We also got - an IC with a jump pack can give rerolls on the charge even if he's in a unit without them. Could do a jump pack + korloth axe combo for a suicidal lord.

Also summponed flying daemon princes get to choose mode on arrival.

Agree - conjuring KDK bloodthirsters with BFTBG is interesting

Also, all of our walkers got more resilient since they can't be krakked to death

So here is a question that probably seems easily answered, but as a new player to KDK I thought I would ask.

If you field one Heldrake and only one because A) The auxillary choices for Bloodhost get expensive quickly and B) you're accused of cheese by your Thunderdome/triple Canoptek Harvest friends (I know right) then you need to choose the weapon correctly.

So would a lone Baledrake or a lone Hadesdrake be better? I'm asking this following the release of Death from the Skies as I'm not sure if the Baleflamer can be used in the Dogfight phase.

Not seen all the rules, but as its not a fighter, the hadesdrake won't be much better at dogfighting anyway. baledrake all the way.

How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

I forgot about that, probably because I didn't think I would need it. But re-rolling reserves/Objective Secured, alongside the Blood Host? Oooh tasty

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

Comes&Comments wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

D-thirsters and melta Bikes are good, especially with allied Be'lakor for Invis and Shrouding. Maulerfiends are okay against Knights, but you need at least 2 and preferably more. As for the Hellturkeys, either take Baleflamers or don't take them at all. BS3 Hades cannon is just not that great for the points that a Heldrake costs, whereas Baleflamer is awesome. You might consider Soul Grinders with Phlegm, as it is an ordnance weapon (basically a shorter ranged Battle Cannon). Melta Raptors make a decent alternative to bikes, although against Knights they are not as good as they cost a bit more. Perhaps the most drastic option would be to take a Kytan Daemon Engine or even a Lord of Skulls (although the Lord of Skulls is hella overcosted).

Comes&Comments wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

Take Kharn as an ally. He can one shot an invisible knight. If you can get him into combat.

Dayknight wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

It's the new Death from the Skies supplement coming out tomorrow.

ZergSmasher wrote:

Comes&Comments wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

D-thirsters and melta Bikes are good, especially with allied Be'lakor for Invis and Shrouding. Maulerfiends are okay against Knights, but you need at least 2 and preferably more. As for the Hellturkeys, either take Baleflamers or don't take them at all. BS3 Hades cannon is just not that great for the points that a Heldrake costs, whereas Baleflamer is awesome. You might consider Soul Grinders with Phlegm, as it is an ordnance weapon (basically a shorter ranged Battle Cannon). Melta Raptors make a decent alternative to bikes, although against Knights they are not as good as they cost a bit more. Perhaps the most drastic option would be to take a Kytan Daemon Engine or even a Lord of Skulls (although the Lord of Skulls is hella overcosted).

All solid advice. However I thought the hades drakes would be good since its an all knight list? I didnt think the flamers would be useful at all but maybe im missing something. Ill post a list later, its using some interesting combos. Hoping the d-thirster is worth it!

Virules wrote:

Dayknight wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

It's the new Death from the Skies supplement coming out tomorrow.

Thank you. I'm definitely going to use this supplement with the slaughtercult in the future.

 Dayknight wrote:

ZergSmasher wrote:

Comes&Comments wrote:

 Virules wrote:
How much more is a KDK Heldrake than a normal heldrake?

Just take 2 KDK Heldrakes in the flier detachment and get all the bonuses.

Please explain because i have not heard of this magic. Are we talking about a CAD or is their a specific flier detachment i haven't heard about.This could be game-changing info for me here.


Going up against an imperial knight list next week, does anyone have ideas on how to beat it? I just feel like KDK has no chance Was thinking i would spam melta bikes, D-thirster's, Maulerfiends, Hades-drakes, and ally in belakor or a sorcerer's coven to invis. Thoughts? I hate Knights.

D-thirsters and melta Bikes are good, especially with allied Be'lakor for Invis and Shrouding. Maulerfiends are okay against Knights, but you need at least 2 and preferably more. As for the Hellturkeys, either take Baleflamers or don't take them at all. BS3 Hades cannon is just not that great for the points that a Heldrake costs, whereas Baleflamer is awesome. You might consider Soul Grinders with Phlegm, as it is an ordnance weapon (basically a shorter ranged Battle Cannon). Melta Raptors make a decent alternative to bikes, although against Knights they are not as good as they cost a bit more. Perhaps the most drastic option would be to take a Kytan Daemon Engine or even a Lord of Skulls (although the Lord of Skulls is hella overcosted).

All solid advice. However I thought the hades drakes would be good since its an all knight list? I didnt think the flamers would be useful at all but maybe im missing something. Ill post a list later, its using some interesting combos. Hoping the d-thirster is worth it!

Oh, didn't realize that the opposing list was going to be all Knights. I figured it would be 3 knights and some other stuff. My bad. Still, you could use the points better than Hellturkeys when facing an all Knight list. Perhaps consider Forgefiends, as they at least get TWO hades autocannons.

:
So this is my attempt list attempt at taking on an all-knight list. Keep in mind i am taking 1500 points, my ally is taking 1000 points of tau, and my opponent is taking approximately 2500 points of knights(so 5 to my knowledge).

"The Deathstar of rage"
CAD KDK:
BT of Insensate Rage x2
Cultist x2
Chaos bikers (x2 melta) x2
858

CD Allied detachment:
BT of insensate rage (grimoire)
Nurglings
350

Air superiority Detachment (from DFtS supplement):
Chaos Raptor Gunship (Reaper autocannons with malefic ammo[Rending], legacy of ruin: War of armaggeddon[+1 invuln for all DoK in 6 inches]
270

1478


Strategy:
Keep all 3 BT's in a foot large bubble with raptor gunship in the center. This should give all the BT's at least a 4++ and the grimoired BT a 2++. I have no idea what my ally is taking but i'm going to try and force the knights to engage as far as possible from him so he can take plenty of shots. Outflank the knights going towards his squad and pelt their back armor with melta until they either turn around and engage me or keep heading for the tau. Ideally I can target a single knight at a time with the whole death star but i doubt thatll work out. I stayed away from psychic as it is not my forte but im sure it could enhance my army.

..I think you need two flyers to get the detachment don't you?

Malefic Ammo isn't worth the points. Granted you're facing an all-Knight list so it matters less, but really still isn't worth the points.

In all honesty and in keeping with the fact that this is KDK im probably going to run multiple melta-bikes and 3 maulerfiends. I just cant trust the D-thirster because it doesnt strike at initiative. Ill tell you guys how it goes

Anyone else besides me like the Wrath Thirster?

You fly it on the first turn, then breathe fire / whip things till its safe to land. The whip is awesome since his BS is so high, you basically get D3 auto str 7 (i believe) ap2 hits.

I think its more suited to fight most enemy targets because it attacks at initiative. And the flamer+whip will wipe out half of an enemy unit even before the assault begins.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Anyone else besides me like the Wrath Thirster?

You fly it on the first turn, then breathe fire / whip things till its safe to land. The whip is awesome since his BS is so high, you basically get D3 auto str 7 (i believe) ap2 hits.

I think its more suited to fight most enemy targets because it attacks at initiative. And the flamer+whip will wipe out half of an enemy unit even before the assault begins.

Unless I desperately need the STR D, then this is my go-to Bloodthirster of choice. I agree that he is more well suited all around, with the exception of gargantuans and/or high AV vehicles.

Bump. new FAQ, lets have a look.

https://www.facebook.com/1575682476085719/photos/pcb.1625001914487108/1624997304487569/?type=3&theater

No blood tithe for just killing a character outside a challenge. Fine, we knew this was coming.

the dark apotheosis/ korlath trick is banned. FIne, it was silly anyway. But you can get two bloodthirsters through fury unbound hehe,

Goredrinker stays the same after apotheosis. cool ..

Clarified a load of stuff that should be in really isn't in. Bleh whatever.


Nothing on summoning, but OK the most contentious bit about swooping/gliding has been already answered.

Blood Oath:

Hungry for blood rule clarified. Thank god for that, the arguments against were getting depressing.

hellforged hunting pack all get BFTBG. YES I like this. A lot.

I like the clarifications a lot.

Our group actually played all the rules this way already (seemed the common sense way to me anyway) but definitely had tons of arguments on the forums about all these points.

And I know a bunch of players that played all these rules the opposite so should be interesting for them.

MWG Dave (miniwargaming batreps) is known for playing any character dies anytime = blood point and thirster always arrives swooping.