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Great insight to KDK - thanks for sharing !

Ok I got a question... I'm sitting on a Blood Throne / Skull Cannon kit... which is more useful and why?

Skull Cannon all the way! Strength 8 large blast is deadly, even if the AP value is kind of meh. Plus it makes it so your units without Assault Grenades can charge enemies in cover without being gimped.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Skull Cannon all the way! Strength 8 large blast is deadly, even if the AP value is kind of meh. Plus it makes it so your units without Assault Grenades can charge enemies in cover without being gimped.

That's good, because that was the way I was leaning. If I put the kit together right, I can squeeze a basic herald out of the kit in addition to the cannon, which can be useful to plug in as a cheap HQ.

I built mine as a Skull Cannon mainly for summoning purposes. They are great for that. I have the Herald from the kit, although I'm debating on whether to put him on a base or convert a Juggernaut from an old WotC Star Wars Junk Golem miniature and put him on that.

Building a skullcannon is the only way to get a plastic Herald afaik. I put mine on a spare Juggernaught from the Start collecting Khorne Daemon boxes http://i.imgur.com/ldKHVQ5.jpg.

You can field up to 4 cannons in a Charnel Cohort for example.

I play it as a MSU army mostly and I am having major success with it. Last saturday I scored the most points at a tournament, where both Tau and Eldar were represented, simply due to the fact that I had board control and they couldn't get rid of me fast enough.

The 1850 point list was this:

Slaughtercult 1:
- Chaos Lord (Juggernaught, Blood-forged armor, Sigil, powerfist)
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Slaughtercult 2:
- Herald on Juggernaught
- 5 x Possessed
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 8 Bloodlettters (Bloodreaper upgrade)
- 4 x Spawn

Gorepack
- 3 x Bikers
- 3 x Bikers
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds
- 10 x Fleshhounds

Total:
1848 points.

With so many fast units, so many wounds and a smart play in turn 1 with cover, it takes an absolutely stunning amount of firepower to get that list down. Due to the many small units, buffs such as FnP and +1A can be devastating. You have STR 6 on many units as well, so you can take most things down (your major weakness being AV13/14 walkers and flyers) and even if you can't kill it, you can tank it with your hounds. Essentially, the opponent has 1 shooting phase if you start and 2 if they start, and then they have your in their face - That can stress out even the most hardboiled veteran, as they have to choose what to focus down; You hounds or your spawn.

Save a few unit Bloodletters in reserve and deepstrike them in later in the game for that extra mayhem and strategy as you know by then where you need to focus your power.

Enjoy the slaughter

I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

My Juggerlord killed one in Close Combat with his fist, but that's the only reliable way to kill them. Otherwise just ignore them entirely and if they get close, tarpit them with dogs. Being fearless, they will hold it for 2-3 turns, unless you're unlucky with stomps. By that time you can have more summoned in or just throw some bloodletters at it as well.

You don't need to kill it - Just make sure it's worthless for your opponent.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

You still only get 1 point, as it just means you are running the decurion - So no matter the amount of Slaughtercults, you only get 1 point at the start of your turn. And yes, both Slaughtercults get a secondary boon - You can even choose two different secondaries, as the secondary "applies to all units in the formation". So if you buy a expensive boon at the start of your turn, you can pick'n'choose for each cult, depending on your needs

 Nordicus wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

My Juggerlord killed one in Close Combat with his fist, but that's the only reliable way to kill them. Otherwise just ignore them entirely and if they get close, tarpit them with dogs. Being fearless, they will hold it for 2-3 turns, unless you're unlucky with stomps. By that time you can have more summoned in or just throw some bloodletters at it as well.

You don't need to kill it - Just make sure it's worthless for your opponent.

Your other option is to throw a blood thirster at it, by keeping it busy with dogs and/or cultists you can get to your 8 tithe pretty quick.

Vomikron is spot on about this army and board control, you can ignore most of the big baddies as they are so preoccupied trying to kill Khorne dogs they never get around to kill things that matter. And if they do ignore the dogs, well the dogs are too fast to ignore lol.

I am really opinionated on the slaughtercult, that amount of possessed is a really big point sink if you are playing anything 1500 or below; 1850 and up they seem to do really well as you have enough points to have them AND flood the board with units. The ONLY issue I have with that list is you are going to struggle against any Imperial MSU list like marines or foot guard that can match you in units, but have more firepower in each unit. (Hence my propensity for Cannons lol.)

Cannons cannot be stressed enough, I've heard too many Khorne players shun them because: 1. They use to suck. 2. "You can get them for free" (But then you are NOT getting the blood thirster or khorne dogs?) 3. It's AP5.

A rundown of what the Cannon can do:
1. Ignore Cover with S8 Large Blast
2. AV 12, most units will not be able to hurt this in CC
3. 12" Move + 2D6 Charge with D6 S7 Hammer of wrath and 4 S5 AP3 attacks on the charge? YES PLEASE.
4. No rider, so in CC they HAVE to attack AV 12 front.
5. It cannot be immobilized, cool
6. Oh you are stunned/weaponless/assaulted? You are Khorne, get in the damn fight lol.
7. All your daemon forces do not have grenades, NO PROBLEM HERE's A SKULL.
8. It eats people, and then gains a Hullpoint back.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

The trick is to use two Blood host detachments with one slaughtercult each, instead of one Blood Host detachment with two Slaughtercults. Or is there any rule that forbids taking two detachments of the same kind?

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

The trick is to use two Blood host detachments with one slaughtercult each, instead of one Blood Host detachment with two Slaughtercults. Or is there any rule that forbids taking two detachments of the same kind?

As far as I know, you can take two detachments of the same kind. That's why it's common to see double CAD army lists. At least, according to ITC rulings, which many tournaments seem to use these days. That being said, it may be different for Decurion-level detachments, I'd have to dig around and find out. I think in most cases those types of detachments are too big to take two of in a normal list, but a double Blood Host is probably doable in a KDK list if you minimize the toys you take.

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I actually really like that list! How do you deal with knights and such though? Just tarpitting and speed bumps?

Also, two slaughter cults = 2 blood points a turn? And do they both get the secondary buff?

The trick is to use two Blood host detachments with one slaughtercult each, instead of one Blood Host detachment with two Slaughtercults. Or is there any rule that forbids taking two detachments of the same kind?

I'm no big city rules lawyer, but I see no reason why you couldn't do that.

Must... resist... the... urge... to triplehost for guaranteed turn 1 FNP

The cheapest I could run triple bloodhost is 1400 points, and 450 of those points are sunk into possessed. And that's taking Helbrutes as the auxiliary units... hardly effective. I think Dual slaughtercult is the highest I'd ever run (if even that), unless we are talking about Apocalypse type games.

I frequently do see Daemonkin across the table. My experience has been that they struggle against me. I haven't lost a game in ten matches against them.

I cannot explain why because they do seem on the surface to have some fantastic rules. They really do MSU well. I don't know how to explain the losses other than to report them. I play a miriad of armies too, so I mean I have faced it with Night Lords, Dark Eldar, Militarum Tempestus, Tau Empire and Adeptas Sororitas.

In all those matches, it just seemed that the Blood Tythe points weren't giving enough return. Its a very cool and fluffy concept so I enjoy the games but....

Sad but true. Other than the D-thirster and maybe a charged up Goredrinker, I don't think we're great at dealing damage. Lots of low strength AP - attacks, but those only go so far.

I guess I'm just weird because I don't actually play mine as MSU as much as some people. I like to maximize the number of Bloodthirsters I take, (one with the slaughtercult, one as a Commander, etc) and let the Bloodhost do more of my Tithe generation for me, as well as trying to rack up kills from my champion units to get Skull Throne tithe points. It's worked really well for me so far, the only thing that gives me grief is that Objective Secured is hard to get on some of your best units. I'd really love a Gorepack (or even a Brazen Onslaught) that is ObSec.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I guess I'm just weird because I don't actually play mine as MSU as much as some people. I like to maximize the number of Bloodthirsters I take, (one with the slaughtercult, one as a Commander, etc) and let the Bloodhost do more of my Tithe generation for me, as well as trying to rack up kills from my champion units to get Skull Throne tithe points. It's worked really well for me so far, the only thing that gives me grief is that Objective Secured is hard to get on some of your best units. I'd really love a Gorepack (or even a Brazen Onslaught) that is ObSec.

Can you post your list here so i can steal it and show my regular opponents what you're doing? I'm always interested in learning and I am sure any help will be appreciated by him at this point.

Sure! Which size list did you want? I have played mostly 1850 or 2k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I'll just tell you my general strategy. I take a Blood Host, including a Slaughtercult (with a BT as a HQ, 10-man Bloodletter squads for the troops), a Lord of Slaughter D-BT (1 per slaughtercult is allowed), and an Maulerfiend to fill out the War Engine slot for the Blood Host.

Then I take an CAD with a D-BT as the HQ, sprinkle in my other units for flavor, like a 10-model unit of Flesh Hounds and a few Bloodcrushers. I keep regular 10-man Cultist squads (robbed from DV) in both the Blood Host and the CAD, as their champions can be useful sacrificial lambs for either more Blood Tithe points (for dying in a challenge) or as a meat-suit for any summoned Bloodthirsters to spring from.

I upgrade every unit that can take an upgraded champion, they are only a handful of points each and useful for generating tithe points from challenges (or losing them).

I don't start many units in reserve unless I feel I have to. The over-saturation of targets helps make it hard for my opponent to determine what to focus on. 2 D-thirsters on the board are a huge threat, and the regular thirster isn't much of a slouch either, since it can instant-death enemy characters with the axe before they get to roll if you are lucky (also generating Tithe points).

Having the Slaughtercult is vital, because it allows me to utilize all those Blood Tithe points more effectively. I can maintain FNP for darn near the whole game, and still summon units occasionally. If having 3 Bloodthirsters running around on the board is brutal, having 4 or 5 is just cruel and sadistic.

There are some caveats though.

1. I have faced primarily other assault-oriented armies, such as Orks, Tyranids, and Space Wolves (we are all players from back in 5th edition when assaulting was fun).

2. I have not won every game I played with my KDK army. I've won maybe 2/3 games. Usually I lose because of the decision to assault an objective, thinking that I will be able to clear a unit from it easily enough, but having horrible dice rolls and slogging it out for 2-3 more combat phases than I had anticipated.

3. I haven't played against truly shooty armies yet like IG or Tau. I'd probably have to adjust my strategies for those.

That's the gist of it.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Sure! Which size list did you want? I have played mostly 1850 or 2k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I'll just tell you my general strategy. I take a Blood Host, including a Slaughtercult (with a BT as a HQ, 10-man Bloodletter squads for the troops), a Lord of Slaughter D-BT (1 per slaughtercult is allowed), and an Maulerfiend to fill out the War Engine slot for the Blood Host.

Then I take an CAD with a D-BT as the HQ, sprinkle in my other units for flavor, like a 10-model unit of Flesh Hounds and a few Bloodcrushers. I keep regular 10-man Cultist squads (robbed from DV) in both the Blood Host and the CAD, as their champions can be useful sacrificial lambs for either more Blood Tithe points (for dying in a challenge) or as a meat-suit for any summoned Bloodthirsters to spring from.

I upgrade every unit that can take an upgraded champion, they are only a handful of points each and useful for generating tithe points from challenges (or losing them).

I don't start many units in reserve unless I feel I have to. The over-saturation of targets helps make it hard for my opponent to determine what to focus on. 2 D-thirsters on the board are a huge threat, and the regular thirster isn't much of a slouch either, since it can instant-death enemy characters with the axe before they get to roll if you are lucky (also generating Tithe points).

Having the Slaughtercult is vital, because it allows me to utilize all those Blood Tithe points more effectively. I can maintain FNP for darn near the whole game, and still summon units occasionally. If having 3 Bloodthirsters running around on the board is brutal, having 4 or 5 is just cruel and sadistic.

There are some caveats though.

1. I have faced primarily other assault-oriented armies, such as Orks, Tyranids, and Space Wolves (we are all players from back in 5th edition when assaulting was fun).

2. I have not won every game I played with my KDK army. I've won maybe 2/3 games. Usually I lose because of the decision to assault an objective, thinking that I will be able to clear a unit from it easily enough, but having horrible dice rolls and slogging it out for 2-3 more combat phases than I had anticipated.

3. I haven't played against truly shooty armies yet like IG or Tau. I'd probably have to adjust my strategies for those.

That's the gist of it.

could you seek such a game out and do a batrep? I want to be able to show him, win or lose, how he can adjust to that. I am truly not a Chaos Daemons fan and its one of only thre armies I don't own so its the one thing i can't advise him on as far as being on your side of the table.

Video batrep is even cooler or with pics but words will do as long as its clear enough fro him to follow why you did what you did.

now you can play a more effective MSU (korne also with his murder horde) with demons formations so suppose no reasons to play demonkin, just my opinion.

I've found that the whole thing basically operates as Codex: Gorepack. Gorepack is one of the best formations in the game.

2 D-Thirsters, a bunch of Bloodletters at MSU, and a Gorepack with Bikers carrying a bunch of Melta goes wonderful.

I wonder what could be done do deal with the Tau Ghostkeel formation. Last game my opponent infiltrated them 18" close to my cannons, moved 6" and blew all three bits with fusion blasters turn 1. Is the only solution to Bubble wrap em with fast units (hounds) so you can atleast catch them even after they JSJ?

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
I wonder what could be done do deal with the Tau Ghostkeel formation. Last game my opponent infiltrated them 18" close to my cannons, moved 6" and blew all three bits with fusion blasters turn 1. Is the only solution to Bubble wrap em with fast units (hounds) so you can atleast catch them even after they JSJ?

You could just hold them in reserves

 Jancoran wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Sure! Which size list did you want? I have played mostly 1850 or 2k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I'll just tell you my general strategy. I take a Blood Host, including a Slaughtercult (with a BT as a HQ, 10-man Bloodletter squads for the troops), a Lord of Slaughter D-BT (1 per slaughtercult is allowed), and an Maulerfiend to fill out the War Engine slot for the Blood Host.

Then I take an CAD with a D-BT as the HQ, sprinkle in my other units for flavor, like a 10-model unit of Flesh Hounds and a few Bloodcrushers. I keep regular 10-man Cultist squads (robbed from DV) in both the Blood Host and the CAD, as their champions can be useful sacrificial lambs for either more Blood Tithe points (for dying in a challenge) or as a meat-suit for any summoned Bloodthirsters to spring from.

I upgrade every unit that can take an upgraded champion, they are only a handful of points each and useful for generating tithe points from challenges (or losing them).

I don't start many units in reserve unless I feel I have to. The over-saturation of targets helps make it hard for my opponent to determine what to focus on. 2 D-thirsters on the board are a huge threat, and the regular thirster isn't much of a slouch either, since it can instant-death enemy characters with the axe before they get to roll if you are lucky (also generating Tithe points).

Having the Slaughtercult is vital, because it allows me to utilize all those Blood Tithe points more effectively. I can maintain FNP for darn near the whole game, and still summon units occasionally. If having 3 Bloodthirsters running around on the board is brutal, having 4 or 5 is just cruel and sadistic.

There are some caveats though.

1. I have faced primarily other assault-oriented armies, such as Orks, Tyranids, and Space Wolves (we are all players from back in 5th edition when assaulting was fun).

2. I have not won every game I played with my KDK army. I've won maybe 2/3 games. Usually I lose because of the decision to assault an objective, thinking that I will be able to clear a unit from it easily enough, but having horrible dice rolls and slogging it out for 2-3 more combat phases than I had anticipated.

3. I haven't played against truly shooty armies yet like IG or Tau. I'd probably have to adjust my strategies for those.

That's the gist of it.

could you seek such a game out and do a batrep? I want to be able to show him, win or lose, how he can adjust to that. I am truly not a Chaos Daemons fan and its one of only thre armies I don't own so its the one thing i can't advise him on as far as being on your side of the table.

Video batrep is even cooler or with pics but words will do as long as its clear enough fro him to follow why you did what you did.

I do have a game coming up on Saturday... I could try to do a batrep, but I'm not very good at them.

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:I wonder what could be done do deal with the Tau Ghostkeel formation. Last game my opponent infiltrated them 18" close to my cannons, moved 6" and blew all three bits with fusion blasters turn 1. Is the only solution to Bubble wrap em with fast units (hounds) so you can atleast catch them even after they JSJ?

Well for starters, I would not run them as a single unit, to force split fire as often as possible. You can run 8 separate War Engines with a single Blood Host detachment, which leaves plenty of room for cannons and maulerfiends both if you are so inclined. Secondly, I'd deploy them behind LOS-blocking terrain such as a tall building or hills, especially if I knew I wasn't getting first turn. Otherwise I'd probably keep them in reserves.

blackmage wrote:now you can play a more effective MSU (korne also with his murder horde) with demons formations so suppose no reasons to play demonkin, just my opinion.

Did you have any reasoning/supporting evidence behind that, or....?

 sfshilo wrote:
I am really opinionated on the slaughtercult, that amount of possessed is a really big point sink if you are playing anything 1500 or below; 1850 and up they seem to do really well as you have enough points to have them AND flood the board with units. The ONLY issue I have with that list is you are going to struggle against any Imperial MSU list like marines or foot guard that can match you in units, but have more firepower in each unit. (Hence my propensity for Cannons lol.)

While I realize that most people don't like the possessed, I wouldn't underestimate that unit when it comes to the tax of the slaughtercult. A few reasons why:

- They are both Marines & Daemons, so the get furious charge, counter-attack AND rage at the same time. This give a normal possessed 4 STR 6 attacks on the charge and 1/3 chance of AP3. That is Death Company level of nasty.

- They are typically ignored by the enemy army, as they have 100 hounds and daemons in their face by the end of turn 1. It's a excellent backfield unit that can slowly move up and they can, and will, kill anything that moves past midfield as your opponent is busy laying down fire on all the rush units.

- Being part of the Slaughtercult gives them 2 boons each turn, for the price of one. Use the +1 Attack for the entire army, and Fnp on the Slaughtercult; You know have a unit composed of 5 guys with 3+/5++ save, 5+ FnP, 5 x STR 6 attacks on the charge, a chance of either having +1I and +1A or AP3 and they cause fear. That is brutal.

Don't rush them forward, but keep them in the backline and move them up. I have had my possessed be a gamechanger in turn 4 and 5, as the opponent totally underestimated and ignored them. It should be noted, that I usually run 2 small Slaughtercults instead of 1 big, as I prefer to have more Chaos Spawn and Juggerheralds/-Lords.

I have had my possessed be a gamechanger by turn 4-5 in many of my games (Highlight being 5 of them taken down a Baneblade by glancing hits alone). They can be very usefull

blackmage wrote:
now you can play a more effective MSU (korne also with his murder horde) with demons formations so suppose no reasons to play demonkin, just my opinion.

Great opinion, well supported and shows you play KDK

On a real note:
I dont think the Murderhorde will replace KDK, I feel out of the new daemon formations khorne has some of the weaker ones (still good but just not as good as the other chaos god ones) and the tax to get the corrupted objectives is a bit too steep for my liking. Another thing that makes KDK stand above normal Khorne Daemons is the fact that there is no daemonic instability, fearless bloodletters, hounds, and the like are truly a stong asset. KDK is a strong army, and will be so long as you can play it at the skill level it requires. Daemons in general have always been an army that required some decent skills whether you are managing all the gifts, warp storm, and power tables properly, or knowing your combos and how units interact.

KDK also has the advantage of still getting some of the best CSM units without the need for a different detachment or source so you can still ally in daemons, its probably the best way to run CSM in general unless you are fishing for bel'akor (overrated imo), a black mace DP, or Kharn (who is underrated imo). So salty about Kharn and skarbrand not being in the KDK book.

Edit: Also the new daemon stuff just dropped, to come out and just assume they will play a better MSU is a fallacy, things need to be played a bit more than a weekend to truly see how they will stack up.

I definitely agree it's a better way to run CSM. I feel like you get most of the units you want from CSM codex anyway, with the Tithe table to boost them as a bonus. Mark of Khorne cultists with FNP are no slouch for the points!

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
I wonder what could be done do deal with the Tau Ghostkeel formation. Last game my opponent infiltrated them 18" close to my cannons, moved 6" and blew all three bits with fusion blasters turn 1. Is the only solution to Bubble wrap em with fast units (hounds) so you can atleast catch them even after they JSJ?

Well to be fair this can be done from 48" away too by all kinds of armies. So reserves is really a good idea