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On a side note the Kytan is about 100 points overcosted. Keeping in mind the Lord of skulls, that isn't too bad, but the last game I played against one I dropped it with Multiple Melta servitors and a single Grav cannon. It really needs a shield or an improved demon save or something.

I won't run Knights because they seem way too steam punk for 40k and everybody and their sister brings em, so it's gonna get smoked. I've seen the Brass Scorpion in action and that's the superheavy run if it wasn't absurdly fragile and monetarily expensive.

EDIT: Anybody have /know the rules and restrictions for the skull cannon formation? As of now I only have one and usually summon it as a bullet sponge because it's the only thing I can summon that my opponent is typically afraid of enough to unload on it (it hits like a freight train on the charge and will usually swing any combat in my favor if given the xhance ). However I could justify picking up a couple more for that kind of nastiness. And yea, that's definitely something that sits in reserve T1.

Technically the Brass Scorpian isn't available to KDK. It was last updated before KDK came out and hasn't been updated to be an option for KDK since.

Apparently FW ruled otherwise. Check the middle of the last page. Nordic us emailed FW and they said as long as it's a Khorne specific unit with the mark you're good to go.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Apparently FW ruled otherwise. Check the middle of the last page. Nordic us emailed FW and they said as long as it's a Khorne specific unit with the mark you're good to go.

1) Emails aren't official sources for the rules
2) Brass Scorpian doesn't have a Khorne specific mark

No but it is a Khorne specific Demon engine. It's all in the name. The Greater Brass Scorpion of Tzeentch? Naw, Nurgle...wait that doesn't sound right either. Slaneesh. Must be Slaneesh. OH YEA! It's the Greater Brass Scorpion of KHORNE

EDIT: No matter what ones opinion on the validity of emails is, I can't think of any logical reason why a Khorne Engine can't be run alongside a Khorne specific book. Lord of War or no.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
No but it is a Khorne specific Demon engine. It's all in the name. The Greater Brass Scorpion of Tzeentch? Naw, Nurgle...wait that doesn't sound right either. Slaneesh. Must be Slaneesh. OH YEA! It's the Greater Brass Scorpion of KHORNE

EDIT: No matter what ones opinion on the validity of emails is, I can't think of any logical reason why a Khorne Engine can't be run alongside a Khorne specific book. Lord of War or no.

The rules clear its a no. And even by FW's email it's still no.

So let's just take a hellforged hunting pack

Where does it explicitly say a Scorpion can't be taken in KDK? I've got the dex in hand and can't find gak. Couldn't find anything under its entry on FW either.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Where does it explicitly say a Scorpion can't be taken in KDK? I've got the dex in hand and can't find gak. Couldn't find anything under its entry on FW either.

Where does it say you CAN? 40k is a permissive rule set. You need to be given permission to do something. Nothing is giving you permission to take the Brass Scorpion in KDK which is why you can't take it.

If you say so chief. A conflicting release time frame, a low-priority GW written secondary dex and "permissive" rules that have yet to be written are needed to take a Khorne unit in a Khorne codex. Don't take this the wrong way, but I seriously pity the meta you play in because we both know those rules will never be written. Especially seeing as how the primary chaos book isn't due for an update until the second quarter of next year. In this case my people go by rule of common sense. As would anyone without a forgeworld phobia who isn't sporting a black "rules" uniform complete with skull and crossbones and red armband.

EDIT: CrownAxe the latter part of the post wasn't a shot at you. I was merely pointing out that someone who would refuse a game against KDK with a Scorpion, Knight or Kytan in it because rules from two different sets of writers in an out of sync time line don't specifically say you can take them is a pretty hardcore rules nazi. It's like a homeschooling parent refusing to acknowledge to their kids that 2+2=4 because the textbook omitted it.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
If you say so chief. A conflicting release time frame, a low-priority GW written secondary dex and "permissive" rules that have yet to be written are needed to take a Khorne unit in a Khorne codex. Don't take this the wrong way, but I seriously pity the meta you play in because we both know those rules will never be written. Especially seeing as how the primary chaos book isn't due for an update until the second quarter of next year. In this case my people go by rule of common sense. As would anyone without a forgeworld phobia who isn't sporting a black "rules" uniform complete with skull and crossbones and red armband.

In a local meta you would have no problem playing it, as I doubt most people would deny you the right to play it - However. if you go to local tournaments or any sort of competitive play, it will be illegal to bring it. I think that's the point that's trying to be made It depends on who you play against but if you play against an opponent you don't know, he DOES have the right (currently) to deny you the unit in your army.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
If you say so chief. A conflicting release time frame, a low-priority GW written secondary dex and "permissive" rules that have yet to be written are needed to take a Khorne unit in a Khorne codex. Don't take this the wrong way, but I seriously pity the meta you play in because we both know those rules will never be written. Especially seeing as how the primary chaos book isn't due for an update until the second quarter of next year. In this case my people go by rule of common sense. As would anyone without a forgeworld phobia who isn't sporting a black "rules" uniform complete with skull and crossbones and red armband.

Why does telling you how the rules work make me me have "forgeworld phobia"? I play a Forge World army for gods sake (Renegades). Besides you can still take a Brass Scorpion you just have to take it in a CSM detachment (oh no, that's so awful /sarcasm). Your play group can play 40k however they want but that doesn't change what the RAW is and most tournaments and some players play that way.

And by the way, its a permissive rule set so that the game works. Other wise I can say "well the rules don't say I can't just declare my self the winner so GG"

Check the post again Mr Axe. It's a shame that competitive play would refuse such an obvious connection when they're perfectly willing to fudge around with the Taus dex even though the rules are there and written in plain english. I mean if KDK couldn't have access to LOWS or something maybe, but that stupid Khorne mower is in the book. It seems like a pretty easy fix too. Certain TOs can be asked to review the rules. I can't imagine why they would keep it illegal. Rules that should exist but don't due to modern technology's inability to keep up with HG Wells. I mean if they can omit and tweak contemporary rules that do exist I don't see why they can't bridge a gap that common sense has but GW ignores.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Check the post again Mr Axe. It's a shame that competitive play would refuse such an obvious connection when they're perfectly willing to fudge around with the Taus dex even though the rules are there and written in plain english.

Not every tournament is ITC

 CrownAxe wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Check the post again Mr Axe. It's a shame that competitive play would refuse such an obvious connection when they're perfectly willing to fudge around with the Taus dex even though the rules are there and written in plain english.

Not every tournament is ITC

It was just one example. I mean most tourneys have their stipulations do they not? Some don't allow unbound, some ask certain gorgon zola to be left at home, others have restrictions on CADs/detatchments. All of which conflict with preexisting rules. I have no idea why this is a point of contention. Especially in this thread. Meh I guess there's the way things are and the way things oughtta be. Even though common sense has my back, I submit.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Even though common sense has my back, I submit.

It's not common sense we're debating - It's the written rules of which the game is based. We completely agree that it should be usable - No contention there. I also completely agree that if I have an opponent that asks, he should be allowed to field it. No skin off my nose.

The point is, that you cannot have it as a guarantee at events and certain opponents. To have it brought, it requires an opponent or an event that agrees to break the written rules to have it present. As much as it sucks, it's a fact we have to live with until some official letter of consent is made; Either via a FAQ or a written rule in the rulebook.

Besides, looking for common sense in 40k is already a pilgrimage that drives most men mad

My own personal experience here, not related to the ongoing debate above, rather about the army itself.

First off, I don't play as Chaos at all. I'm a Blood Angels player, though I'm sure some here will welcome me with open arms due to our 'mutations' LOL. But I'll provide my (the enemy) viewpoint for those concerned.

Last week was my first battle against Chaos since 5th edition. My opponent fielded a Khorne army, obviously, with the likes of Kharn, Bezerkers, 3 squads of cultists, LR Crusader, Forgefiends, Bloodletters, hounds, Bloodthirster, etc.

I fielded:

Mephiston (because MURDERSWORD)
Chaplain with JP

5 Death Company with JP
15 Death Company on foot/vehicle
5 Tactical Terminators

Cassor the Damned (Death Company Dred)
Raphen's Death Company (5 DC with JP)

Land Raider Crusader
Predator Annihilator

I immediately noticed how many guys my opponent had and how they could pretty much cover every part of his deployment zone. I was outnumbered. And those Forgefieds look far more capable than they actually are (DISTRACTION CARNIFEX).

I've also researched Kharn and wondered how he'd fare against Mephiston. It was pretty much a given that I'd need to charge him along with 15 DC, especially if he's accompanied by Bezerkers, which in this game he was.

Anyway, the game itself seemed fairly balanced early on, but then my Death Company started to murder everything. They swept through his hounds, 3 squads of cultists, his bezerkers and a Forgefiend. My opponent made the mistake of separating Kharn from his Bezerkers and then charging my dropped squad of Terminators. he killed 3 no problem, but then the remaining 2 punched him in the face with their powerfists and he died.

As his Bezerkers were on their own, my large DC squad swept them aside, but not before they'd taken out my Raphen squad.

His bloodthirster and a squad of weird looking beast things with pale skin attacked my other DC squad and my Chaplain. After three turns of CC that combat was reduced to a single DC marine with a powerfist and his Bloodthirst who was on 1 wound.

His LR and Rhino survived, along with several bloodletters.

I lost my predator in the 1st turn and then around 12 DC marines in total and 3 Terminators.

His strengths seemed to lie with being able to cover a lot of the board, but not having enough to support his CC squads as they moved forward.

His Bloodthirster was effective, but isolated, same goes for Kharn, the Bezerkers and the bloodletters, who were fodder for Moriar in the end.

If I learned anything that I can put across here, use a combination that works well together. And whatever surges forward in the army, make sure it's supported, and not just by more of the same type. If he'd used his Bloodthirster, Kharn and the Bezerkers together, they'd have murdered anything they came across, probably with the exception of Mephiston and his accompanying squad of 15 DC. His Forgefiends were also pretty static throughout the game. they could have moved up along with his CC squads. As he'd taken out my Predator in turn 1 there wasn't really much in terms of ranged weaponry that could have hurt them.

But his number 1 sin was spreading out his army too much.

Really toying with the Fist of Khorne in 1850.

If you run it. 20 berserkers naked and champion with powerfist/icon of wrath?

Anyone got any opinions on the formation?

Locking the shootiest units in CC while the rest of the army runs up field is just too tempting

You might as well add The Icon Of Wrath at that point. After almost everyone is dead you'll want to make those changes more likely.

A note on turning cultist champions into Bloodthirsters or Daemon Princes:

I keep trying in the last half of the game to turn a cultist champion into a Bloodthirster (often because all other IC are dead or already Bloodthirsters)

And I have failed the leadership roll many many times and he is just sucked into the warp.

At that point often you just need something fast to grab objectives - so I believe the wise thing to do would be to try and turn him into a Daemon Prince because atleast if you fail you will get a spawn which can still objective grab instead of nothing.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
A note on turning cultist champions into Bloodthirsters or Daemon Princes:

I keep trying in the last half of the game to turn a cultist champion into a Bloodthirster (often because all other IC are dead or already Bloodthirsters)

And I have failed the leadership roll many many times and he is just sucked into the warp.

At that point often you just need something fast to grab objectives - so I believe the wise thing to do would be to try and turn him into a Daemon Prince because atleast if you fail you will get a spawn which can still objective grab instead of nothing.

haha, briliant. the gods are fickle.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
A note on turning cultist champions into Bloodthirsters or Daemon Princes:

I keep trying in the last half of the game to turn a cultist champion into a Bloodthirster (often because all other IC are dead or already Bloodthirsters)

And I have failed the leadership roll many many times and he is just sucked into the warp.

At that point often you just need something fast to grab objectives - so I believe the wise thing to do would be to try and turn him into a Daemon Prince because atleast if you fail you will get a spawn which can still objective grab instead of nothing.

This is a good reason to have the Lord with the Axe of Ruin... double thirsters, and you have much less chance of failing the roll! Keeping him alive until you have 8 tithe to spend is another matter though.

So, what do you guys think about using the new Renegade Knights?
Sure they dont get BftBG, but dual Battlecannon or dual Gatlin Cannon might be an interesting alternative as long range fire support alternative to the fw chaos knight.

i tried it yesterady with double gatling cannon and missiles, it works fine wiht KDK, just annoying it has no BFTBG, but it fire really a lot, different role than chaos knight, more in the background firing and anything treathening ,less close combat.

I'm going to get the Renegades box and paint/model one of the Knights as a Khorne knight, so that I can use it as the FW one or a Renegade. All weapons will be magnetized of course!

has anyone had any luck with the d-thirster or ff? Not striking at initiative has made him all but useless and the ffiend seems over costed af for the damage it does. I just don't think the d-thirster is viable without psyker support

CumsnComments wrote:
has anyone had any luck with the d-thirster or ff? Not striking at initiative has made him all but useless and the ffiend seems over costed af for the damage it does. I just don't think the d-thirster is viable without psyker support

I can't speak for the Forgefiend, as I don't have one, but my D-thirster has done some work for me. He often gets killed early on, but he usually draws fire from my other units until he dies. When he does make it into combat, he usually obliterates whatever he charges. He's kind of a hero or a zero in most games. As has been mentioned before in this thread and others, the key to KDK is threat saturation. If they focus down one or two units, the rest are going to get their charges in and start wrecking face. Allying in Be'lakor does help keep a D-thirster alive, but good threat saturation makes it less necessary to have psyker buffs.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

CumsnComments wrote:
has anyone had any luck with the d-thirster or ff? Not striking at initiative has made him all but useless and the ffiend seems over costed af for the damage it does. I just don't think the d-thirster is viable without psyker support

I can't speak for the Forgefiend, as I don't have one, but my D-thirster has done some work for me. He often gets killed early on, but he usually draws fire from my other units until he dies. When he does make it into combat, he usually obliterates whatever he charges. He's kind of a hero or a zero in most games. As has been mentioned before in this thread and others, the key to KDK is threat saturation. If they focus down one or two units, the rest are going to get their charges in and start wrecking face. Allying in Be'lakor does help keep a D-thirster alive, but good threat saturation makes it less necessary to have psyker buffs.

Forgefiend is definitely overcosted a little compared to other codexes, but it does bring something great to the army - a ton of S8 shooting. He's often the star of my army.
Big tip for the Forgefiend though: almost always use Daemonforge on the first turn. Only wait unless you are absolutely positive the enemy has no way of killing it on the turn after AND you have poor targets this turn. The earlier you use it, the more likely you are to realise the benefit, the more impact it has on the game, and the more likely you are to regain the hullpoint later on.
8 S8 shots (even only at BS3) gives you a good chance to
- get first blood
- pop open most transports ready for hounds to charge.
- kill T4 multiwound models like Bloodcrushers, Crisis Suits or Broadsides
- wound and possibly ground a FMC



D-Thirster... a bit hit and miss. Literally lol - even with 8 attacks on the charge, missing with 4 of them severely cuts down his damage potential!
The problem I have with him is that most things that need to get D-slapped are going to deal significant damage to the Thirster in combat, possibly even kill it before it strikes. I'm thinking Thunderwolves or any other thunderhammer / stormshield unit. The things that the D-thirster doesn't worry about, are also complete overkill to hit with D-weapons. The thing I've found that he's best at is taking out vehicles or lone MC's - Leman Russ, Whirlwinds, Riptides, that kind of thing. And he makes a good fire magnet.

Forgefiends are complete gak.

There's a formation from the Black Legion sorta fixing the issue, and they still suck. Paying a bit more for frickin Furious Charge only makes things worse.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Forgefiends are complete gak.

There's a formation from the Black Legion sorta fixing the issue, and they still suck. Paying a bit more for frickin Furious Charge only makes things worse.

Used the formation. Still a waste of of points when i could get allied support for cheaper. Maybe its my meta but what really kills the forgefiend for me is the ruins/cover saves everywhere at my FLGS.


On a more positive note. What have you guys found to be the best allies for your lists?

I typically run allied csm with:
kharn,
cultisists
chaos rapier batteries.

Kharn is joined to some bloodletters or cultists for bftbg.(fluffy)
Cultsits backfield camp
Rapier batteries for long range anti-tank, sometimes joined by a herald for bftbg but the effectiveness is dubious at best.