Short version I tried to look up tournament results for all 2015 40k tournaments and found that theres no place that has a listing of all named tourneys and results. So the next best thing is to ask you guys, what are the rankings based on tournament performance and overall perceived codex strength of all current factions (codices/supplements) in 40k?
Long version recently I played a game versus my friend an Astra Militarum (so hard not to call them Imperial Guard...) player. Where I fielded my Grey Knights army (second time playing them since new codex). My friend quit 40k long ago, and as a returning player we kept it simple at 1,000 pts. His army had some infantry, a basilisk, a leman russ battle tank, a vendetta and a chimera for his command squad. My Grey Knights were 2 full units of interceptors, a 5-man strike squad bare bones and a 5-man terminator squad bare bones and a brother captain.
I figured it should be an easy win for him since to my knowledge and online research Grey Knights in power armour are the worst of the worst in the new GK codex. Considering he had a bunch of AP3 pie plates I figured it would be a short fun game to get his feet wet and a foolproof Guard victory. I got first turn, deployed my interceptors combat squads shunted turn 1 right to his door and incinerated most of his infantry. A fun little gimmick I thought and basically waited for him to crush my guys with pie plates.
Long story short, I ended up winning the game by a landslide. My friend felt that I used a tournament list for a friendly game and that it was Grey Knights cheese (to his recollection Grey Knights from 5th ed were the boogieman). I told him that it was the complete opposite and that from my perspective his army list was much more competitive than mine and that Astra Militarum is used more frequently in competitive play than Grey Knights. And is in my opinion a much stronger faction in current 40k competitive meta.
How would you guys list then in proper order. Please try to avoid basing everything off rumors or bias.
For example: I LOVE Tyranids and by all means they are my #1 favorite army, but even I know they've been shafted one too many times and the codex is not a strong one, even though I've seen tournament results that show Tyranids attending and even winning several. I still wouldn't put tyranids in the top 10 of current competitive factions.
I hear Eldar and Tau are killing it right now. But I actually own these armies aswell even if I haven't played a single game of 40k with their new codices, I read through them worked out some lists and I can def see that there's a lot of power gaming potential there. So I'd place them in top 10 because I can back what I've heard about them, with what I've read up in their new codex.
IG are pretty awful in 7E, both because of the core rules and having been overshadowed by far more powerful books.
Oldzoggy's chart actually tracks about how most people would answer pretty well. Eldar, Necrons, SM's, and Tau are rising very high, while armies like CSM's, Harlies, IG, BA's, GK's, etc are largely left in the dust.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/680065.page
This is my personal opinion, and im gonna put them in groups.
Hard not to be Broken: Eldar
Strong Baseline, hard to screw up: Necrons, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii
Good if you know what you're doing: Grey Knights, Imperial Guard (with their Mont'ka Formations), Harlequins, Tyranids, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Daemons, Khorne Daemonkin, Tau
Can be good, but a lot is bad: Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels
Are in a really bad spot right now: Chaos Space Marines
Note that i am not speaking from a tournament perspective, im talking from a casual one that focuses on making a decent TAC list.
Most of the "Good if you know what you're doing" list has multiple decent builds that can compete with the "Strong Baseline" group. Sisters of Battle are largely the exception here, but they have such a small unit selection that making lists that seem drastically different is hard in the first place. In any case their 1 basic build is solid and is fluffy on top of it.
The Can be Good list has large, glaring issues and are very difficult to play and cant compete properly in the current meta. Orks in particular are odd, depending on your meta they could shift up or down a level.
I know some people will disagree with me on the Tau, but the Tau do actually require you to know what you are doing. Though spamming 3 Riptides is still potent, its gotten less useful.
Judging from what I've seen and played against it goes
Top tier: Eldar (Warp Spiders, Scatterbikes, Wraithknight, Tau allies), Necrons (Decurion, but may struggle in Maelstrom games), Tau (Utterly hilarious firepower), SMs (Gladius Strike Force is God in Maelstrom).
Upper mid: AdMech and Skitarii (Some of their formations are really good), Chaos Daemons (Screamerstars still work), DAs, GKs, SWs, KDK.
Lower mid: DE (not much experience with them, hear experienced players can have really good results), BAs, Harlequins, IG.
Scrub tier: Orks, Nids, CSMs.
Asura Varuna wrote: Tier 1: Eldar, Necrons, SM, DA, Tau
Tier 2: Chaos Demons, Admech/Skitarii, Knights, SWs, Nids
Tier 3: GKs, IG, DE, Harlequins
Tier 4: Orks, CSM
I agree with this list. Plus at this point, the armies that I feel need to be fixed first are Tau (too powerful), Orks and CSM (needs buffing). And SM could do with a little bit of a nerf, though they're generally pretty good at the moment.
Asura Varuna wrote: Tier 1: Eldar, Necrons, SM, DA, Tau
Tier 2: Chaos Demons, Admech/Skitarii, Knights, SWs, Nids
Tier 3: GKs, IG, DE, Harlequins
Tier 4: Orks, CSM
I agree with this list. Plus at this point, the armies that I feel need to be fixed first are Tau (too powerful), Orks and CSM (needs buffing). And SM could do with a little bit of a nerf, though they're generally pretty good at the moment.
The list also reads most powerful - least powerful left to right as well as in the actual tiers. Seems odd that you'd want to nerf the Tau and not the Eldar or Necrons, who have both been more broken and for longer. I'm basing these power ratings with ITC FAQ taken into account. I just realised I forgot to include KDK, but they'd sit at the top of Tier 3. CSM simply need a complete and utter overhaul to bring them into the meta. It's not even just a matter of a few points breaks or a few special rules from formations - the whole design paradigm of the codex is clunky and dated and needs to be reworked from the ground up. I think Orks are probably in the same boat there.
Asura Varuna wrote: The list also reads most powerful - least powerful left to right as well as in the actual tiers. Seems odd that you'd want to nerf the Tau and not the Eldar or Necrons, who have both been more broken and for longer. I'm basing these power ratings with ITC FAQ taken into account. I just realised I forgot to include KDK, but they'd sit at the top of Tier 3. CSM simply need a complete and utter overhaul to bring them into the meta. It's not even just a matter of a few points breaks or a few special rules from formations - the whole design paradigm of the codex is clunky and dated and needs to be reworked from the ground up. I think Orks are probably in the same boat there.
Well I can't speak to Eldar since I haven't read their codex, seen them played or played against them. As for Tau, I've been tabled by Tau in a 2,000 point game and only destroyed 1x Riptide and 2x Pathfinder models (not squads - models). The half a dozen other games I've played against Tau have yielded similar results. As for Necrons, I've been on roughly par with them (using my BT army), the Necrons usually having a slight advantage. So based on my experience with Necrons, I don't think they need to be nerfed, though I could put that down to my opponents not using particularly OP lists.
And I definitely agree with you in regards to the CSM codex. As far as KDK, I can't speak to them because, like the Eldar, I know nothing about them.
Eldar, Necrons, Deamons, and Space Marines are the big 4. With Tau coming in a far 5th as an upper mid tier as of the last year of ITC and other tournaments data. Even newer data suggests this and the gap between higher armies and mid tier armies is widening with all of their updates. Consequently Tau is in a weird spot where it can stomp anything lower than it but doesn't have much of a chance to win an ITC tournament.
The Tau are almost in their own weird tier at his point. Tier 1.5 compared to Tier 1. Admech/Skitarri lists would be in the 1.5 tier as well.
IllumiNini wrote: Well I can't speak to Eldar since I haven't read their codex, seen them played or played against them. As for Tau, I've been tabled by Tau in a 2,000 point game and only destroyed 1x Riptide and 2x Pathfinder models (not squads - models). The half a dozen other games I've played against Tau have yielded similar results. As for Necrons, I've been on roughly par with them (using my BT army), the Necrons usually having a slight advantage. So based on my experience with Necrons, I don't think they need to be nerfed, though I could put that down to my opponents not using particularly OP lists.
And I definitely agree with you in regards to the CSM codex. As far as KDK, I can't speak to them because, like the Eldar, I know nothing about them.
This is largely my findings. Ive never had a problem with Necrons as their entire shtick is "really durable". On top of this none of their units stand out as OMGWTFBBQ Op like the Wraithnight or Scatbikes. Tau i just hate fighting cuz i play Orks and Orks have always hated Tau, my Tzeentch Daemons on the other hand didnt mind and my SoB dont care all that much either.
Gamgee wrote: The Tau are almost in their own weird tier at his point. Tier 1.5 compared to Tier 1. Admech/Skitarri lists would be in the 1.5 tier as well.
Agreed the Ad Mech armies bounce around depending on how they're built.
Most of the Necron hate I see is due to people wanting to remove models from the table with a snow shovel and it just doesn't happen against Necrons. Plus the big meta weapons (grav, etc) tend to be far less effective against their multiple saves. You're much better off playing to the scenario than trying to table them, but a lot of people don't seem to cope well with this idea.
prrety similar thread pops up regularly. Accepted rankings are
1: eldar
2-4: SM/Tau/Necrons, depending on which army the person ranking them plays
5: Deamons
As for stuff bellow the top 5, in no particular order (because you'll get a different answer based on the poster bias to their own army)
upper mid: DA, SWs, Nids(flying circus barely keeps them here), Admech/Skitarii, Knights, KDK lower mid: DE, IG, GK, Harliquins, Sisters
Bottom Teir: BA, Orks
OMFG help us: CSM
I'm not ranking oddities such as Tempestus or random supplements such as Assassins.
Of course every other person you ask with probably have a slight change to this.
pwntallica wrote: prrety similar thread pops up regularly. Accepted rankings are
1: eldar
2-4: SM/Tau/Necrons, depending on which army the person ranking them plays
5: Deamons
As for stuff bellow the top 5, in no particular order (because you'll get a different answer based on the poster bias to their own army)
upper mid: DA, SWs, Nids(flying circus barely keeps them here), Admech/Skitarii, Knights, KDK lower mid: DE, IG, GK, Harliquins, Sisters
Bottom Teir: BA, Orks
OMFG help us: CSM
I'm not ranking oddities such as Tempestus or random supplements such as Assassins.
Of course every other person you ask with probably have a slight change to this.
Well, it's pretty much a near universally held truth that Chaos Marines are the game's weakest army.
BA players can try to claim CSM's are better off, but they're completely wrong... BA's at least work solidly in non-competitive metas. Chaos Marines don't even get to do that, unless you stick entirely to Codex: Nurgle + Drakes.
RuneGrey wrote: Most of the Necron hate I see is due to people wanting to remove models from the table with a snow shovel and it just doesn't happen against Necrons.
It's more not being able to do *anything* and then having their entire army in your deployment zone turn 2.
There's a difference between not being able to wipe them off the table with a snow shovel, and not being able to do anything meaningful at all against them. When you get something like a basic 13pt Necron Warrior being nearly as resilient against small arms fire as a 40pt Terminator and actually more resilient against stuff like plasma guns or demolisher cannons, and Wraith units that take more S10 fire to kill than a Titan (or literally enough Lasgun fire to slay half a company of Space Marines), it's hard for that army *not* to be extraordinarily powerful when an opponent just can't do anything meaningful to such a force, and playing to the scenario only does so much good when the Necron army can largely do whatever it wants without your actions being able to affect them because they just shrug off everything thrown at them.
When you can't interact with the opponent's army, you can't play to the scenario well either.
My meta doesn't have any Eldar players, so I won't speak to them based only on speculation, but Necrons, SM, Tau, and Demons are pretty well-balanced against each other. I haven't played our SW player since their new supplement dropped, but the rules looked promising to me. DA can hold their own when played well. Everything else struggles mightily against the top-tier armies.
Here is a great analysis from LVO 2016, its VERY clear who are competitive and who are not.
"...top spots are the domain of Eldar, Space Marine, Necron and Daemon players – all others need not apply, or are at the very least facing a very uphill battle."
I always find it funny that people rank DA so high when I have so much trouble with them, but then I realize I'm doing it wrong because I use terminators. All the good DA list either use Lion's blade or a gimmicky deathstar bike list, often pairing with space wolves.
Gamgee wrote: Eldar, Necrons, Deamons, and Space Marines are the big 4. With Tau coming in a far 5th as an upper mid tier as of the last year of ITC and other tournaments data. Even newer data suggests this and the gap between higher armies and mid tier armies is widening with all of their updates. Consequently Tau is in a weird spot where it can stomp anything lower than it but doesn't have much of a chance to win an ITC tournament.
The Tau are almost in their own weird tier at his point. Tier 1.5 compared to Tier 1. Admech/Skitarri lists would be in the 1.5 tier as well.
Agreed 100%. Tau's inability to deal with psychic shenanigans keeps them from being a top tier army. They end up being glass cannons that can't kill things. ITC also gimps tau deliberately by not allowing them to use their best formation (heavy retribution Cadre).
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Colonel17 wrote: For Daemons, isnt the upper-tier ranking only for Tzeench psyker spam, with the other factions being much weaker?
yeah but Tzeench incusrions warpflame host with fly circus is easily the most powerful army in the game.
kingbobbito wrote:I always find it funny that people rank DA so high when I have so much trouble with them, but then I realize I'm doing it wrong because I use terminators. All the good DA list either use Lion's blade or a gimmicky deathstar bike list, often pairing with space wolves.
If it helps any, in 100% of the tournaments I have played in this year, I am The Worst Eldar Player. And it should be noted that this went off primary faction, so a DA Bikestar list with Space Wolves, Saint Celestine and a Imperial Knight (as a hypothetical) count as "Dark Angels".
Colonel17 wrote:For Daemons, isnt the upper-tier ranking only for Tzeench psyker spam, with the other factions being much weaker?
Likely, but there isn't the data (or really enough data even if I had it) to sub-divide most factions.
Eldar and SM are by far the most powerful armies in 40k, followed by Tau, Necrons and Daemons.
Then there are some mid tiers like SW, IK, Genestealers, Ravenwing and probably Ad Mech/Skitarii.
The rest of the armies are on the same level.
If you take competitive lists orks, tyrandis and dark eldars for example can defeat some mid tiers armies without relying on an insane amount of luck. I think grey knights, sisters and blood angels are among the worst, but I'm not considering the new celestine, probably I can include the Astra Militarum too.
The problem is that many bottom tier armies are played with completely fluffy list so you can have a wrong perception of them. Orks can be tough with bullyboyz and troop bikers, dark eldar with many reavers and the corpsethief claw can surprise everyone, tyranids with lots of flyers are hard to deal with.
VarianceHammer wrote: Forgive raising this thread from the grave once more, but it feels more appropriate to occasionally bump it than to start this anew...
I'll be honest I don't really understand your model for calculating army advantage.
I agree with the logic though.
1. Eldar are seen as the best faction (proof - its the most popular army at LVO 2017 and most tournaments). This assumes people are aiming to win and have a choice of what they bring. While this isn't going to be universally true (respect to the solitary MT player) it is probably sufficient.
2. Knowing Eldar are the most popular army players need to be able to deal with Eldar if they want to win.
3. This probably makes Eldar less successful than you would expect because armies are geared with them in mind.
This is probably also true with your standard Gladius SM list and Tau.
Beyond that though the key thing for a tournament army is consistency. For instance I think Genestealers are too dependent on cult ambush to prevail over a tournament. When it works you can be massively ahead by the end of your turn 2. When it doesn't however you are probably screwed and in a tournament where you need to win every game I feel the dice will abandon you at some point. Everyone can have a bad shooting phase but this is more critical.
The other thing is how its played - with a focus on objectives unless you table.
This is why I feel Necrons dominate casual tables which often ignore objectives (the line up your stuff, run it at each other for 4-5 turns, just look at who has the most stuff left because kill points never died school of play) but do badly at ITC. They are quite slow and inflexible with not great Ob Sec options. Dark Eldar by contrast are pretty terrible in that situation but if you can avoid being shot off the table they are arguably better at getting maelstrom points and objectives.
morgoth wrote: People seem to vastly underestimate CSM... they're far stronger than Orks or DE or Harlequins.
That one guy managed to win through full MSU in a very specific mission package doesn't make the DE good in any way.
They give up all manner of kill points for maelstrom or straight KP and they suck at any kind of real combat.
I'd say people seems to underestimate orks and DE, I've never had any problems with my orks and DE agiainst CSM, and I always considered them the worst army in entire 40k with sisters and AM, before the latest releases. Now they can be mid tier, but the most competitive orks and DE lists are not worse. No one is going to win tournaments with them because they're very difficult to play and quite expensive, I've barely seen a couple of times the typical competitive orks or DE lists in tournament, usually they're full of fluff. CSM instead are way more common, that's the only reason about having more victories in tournaments.
How many times you faced orks lists with 20+ troop bikes and the bullyboyz? what about reavers spam and the corpsethief claw? Problem with armies like these is that many players like fluffy units so people have a wrong perception about them. It mostly depends on the players' experience really, all these armies are not among top tiers but if well played can be above average for sure.
Okay, I'm starting to feel a little worried that my brand new still-to-be-played deathwatch army isnt even considered in all of thede tier lists or the discussion as a whole... Even Genestealers and Harlies get their place, why no love for deathwatch? Are they that bad?
Morkphoiz wrote: Okay, I'm starting to feel a little worried that my brand new still-to-be-played deathwatch army isnt even considered in all of thede tier lists or the discussion as a whole... Even Genestealers and Harlies get their place, why no love for deathwatch? Are they that bad?
They're just really new so there isn't a long history of feeling for them.
Deathwatch is believed to be stronger than Harlequins and Dark Eldar from what I've seen.
Death watch is the 100000th imperium army, that's why it's not that popular yet, gen cult is very new too but they're quite different compared to other armies, that's why you see several of their lists in tournaments.
-v10mega wrote: with itc in mind this is my list:
read left to right, strongest-weakest
Tier 1: Eldar, Daemons, Renegades, DA Tier 2: Necrons, CSM, Space marines
Tier 3: Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels, space wolves, grey knights, KDK, Knights
Tier 4: SoS, Harlies, Deathwatch, Tyranids, whatever else?
SM should probably be in Tier 1, you forgot Tau (probably Tier 2 in ITC), and if TWC and Wulfen are involved, Space Wolves could easily be Tier 2. Other than that, probably about right.
-v10mega wrote: with itc in mind this is my list:
read left to right, strongest-weakest
Tier 1: Eldar, Daemons, Renegades, DA Tier 2: Necrons, CSM, Space marines
Tier 3: Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels, space wolves, grey knights, KDK, Knights
Tier 4: SoS, Harlies, Deathwatch, Tyranids, whatever else?
SM should probably be in Tier 1, you forgot Tau (probably Tier 2 in ITC), and if TWC and Wulfen are involved, Space Wolves could easily be Tier 2. Other than that, probably about right.
Is SM still tier 1 without electro-displacement (ITC)?
Is that with Gladius or Skyhammer stuff?
Shouldn't Imperial Knights be better off than the rest of tier 3?
Also, Renegades and Dark Angels... what?
Is it the ForgeWorld Renegades?
How come DA are so high, is it because of the mission package of the ITC which is so skewed towards (what exactly)?
SM definitely tier 1, SW and DA tier 2, renegades surely not tier 1. Tau can be tier 1 or 2, probably 1. I'd also add gen cult tier 2 and ad mech/skitarii tier 2 or 3, probably 3.
The article linked on the LVO shows how strong Daemons really are.
The data also doesn't support what people are quoting to be the tiers here in this thread.
Tau, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, and Tyranids all performed fairly similar, when adjusted for player skill, at the LVO, which was barely better than average. So if your "middling" tier is tier3, all of these armies (at the LVO) would belong there.
Bring platoons with heavy weapon teams in the infantry squads, bring mass wyvers, veterans and CCS in chimeras with plasma and melta guns, bring forgeworld manticores/medusas, and ignore cover!
Melissia wrote: ... HWTs in infantry squads? That's a bit of a waste tbh.
Also that list you described just doesn't have the staying power and firepower needed for a modern top tier list.
Yup that way the guardsman are ablative wounds for the heavy weapon teams, as well as objective holders, and support the fight against MC's. With 120+ bodies on the table, conscripts, artillery, heavy teams, and comissars, there's plenty of staying power!
Melissia wrote: ... HWTs in infantry squads? That's a bit of a waste tbh.
Also that list you described just doesn't have the staying power and firepower needed for a modern top tier list.
Yup that way the guardsman are ablative wounds for the heavy weapon teams, as well as objective holders, and support the fight against MC's. With 120+ bodies on the table, conscripts, artillery, heavy teams, and comissars, there's plenty of staying power!
you just wasted ~190ish pt to get one heavy weapon iirc. Not to mention there's no mobility to take objectives, or staying power once you're there. 50 bodies might seem like a lot, but T3 5+ can only take you so far.
-v10mega wrote: with itc in mind this is my list:
read left to right, strongest-weakest
Tier 1: Eldar, Daemons, Renegades, DA Tier 2: Necrons, CSM, Space marines
Tier 3: Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels, space wolves, grey knights, KDK, Knights
Tier 4: SoS, Harlies, Deathwatch, Tyranids, whatever else?
It'd still not agree with this.
I'd rate Space Wolves and Knights above CSM and Space Marines above CSM as well.
CSM are one of those armies that is wholly dependant on a jigsaw puzzle of dataslates and supplements - and ironically their 'best' supplement, Traitor Legions has also crippled them someone by making the staple choices somewhat less desirable (KDK compared to World Eaters) or by adding extra tax to units that didn't have Tax before (Be'lakor now requires a seperate CAD or ally detachment) - this is turn, with ITC rules hurts even more - they have a 3 detachment rule so by forcing something you could originally have stuck into a single Force Org or detachment into another you actually start cutting off other options.
That in mind - CSM literally hover between mid T3 (even then their performance will depend against their match ups - Death Guard and World Eaters will do amazing if they don't come across Triptide or Grav spam Convocations, otherwise they'd do terribly) and mid T4 (You cannot seriously tell me Word Bearers have any sort of promise from Traitor Legions....)
Melissia wrote: ... HWTs in infantry squads? That's a bit of a waste tbh.
Also that list you described just doesn't have the staying power and firepower needed for a modern top tier list.
Yup that way the guardsman are ablative wounds for the heavy weapon teams, as well as objective holders, and support the fight against MC's. With 120+ bodies on the table, conscripts, artillery, heavy teams, and comissars, there's plenty of staying power!
you just wasted ~190ish pt to get one heavy weapon iirc. Not to mention there's no mobility to take objectives, or staying power once you're there. 50 bodies might seem like a lot, but T3 5+ can only take you so far.
That's why you have conscripts with run run run, chimera vets to compliment them. Also, for a last cannon this way it's 70 points, and that comes with 8 bodies with each las cannon in the platoon, 10 total wounds. That's not a waste at all, considering they can be verasitle on what they fire at, and are difficult to remove with a commissar in a platoon blob!
I have an 1850 list that off of the top of my head looks like this:
HQ:
Company Command Squad A:
Company Commander
3 Plasma veterans
Vox Caster Veteran
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Company Command Squad B:
Company Commander
3 Plasma veterans
Vox Caster veteran
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Troops:
Company Platoon:
Platoon Command squad
Commissar
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Commissar with 50 conscripts
Veteran Squad:
3 Melta gun veterans
7 normal veterans
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Veteran Squad:
3 Melta gun veterans
7 normal veterans
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
I personally feel that Grey Knights are in the middle. We can be competitive but we have exactly 1 competitive build, Terminator+Dreadknight+Psyker spam, and the other 3/4 of the codex is garbage. So we just need an internal balance overhaul.
What GKs would need is IMO,
1) Add Drop Pods. I think we're literally the only loyalist marines who don't have them. We use them in the fluff, so we should at least have access.
2) Change Psycannons back to just being Assault so that PAGKs can actually use them.
3) Give us back psybolts for 20 points per squad. Our only access to melta is on relatively poor vehicle choices, least you can do is make all those stormbolters a little more useful. And give us a reason to run vehicles for psybolt buffed autocannons and bolters.
That would fix the internal balance and give a little more anti-tank.
Martel732 wrote: You can have psybolts, but not as +1 str. That never made any sense. They need to be anti-psyker rounds and anti-daemon rounds.
+1 str actually makes sense. fluffwise, they should be both +1 str AND ignore invulns. For balance, it can just be +1 str.
+1str also already exists as precedent. Psycannons are assault cannons with psybolts and suspensors. Psybolts give +1str, and suspensors let it move and fire.
Martel732 wrote: You can have psybolts, but not as +1 str. That never made any sense. They need to be anti-psyker rounds and anti-daemon rounds.
+1 str actually makes sense. fluffwise, they should be both +1 str AND ignore invulns. For balance, it can just be +1 str.
+1str also already exists as precedent. Psycannons are assault cannons with psybolts and suspensors. Psybolts give +1str, and suspensors let it move and fire.
Well, I disagree. I don't care what they are the fluff. +1 str is too much. GK are anti-daemon, not anti-everything.
"+1str also already exists as precedent. "
A really terrible one that still causes me to laugh when bad things happen to GK on the tabletop.
So you think GKs should suck vs everything except Daemons?
Having to pay extra points for Str5 Stormbolters seems fair when you have no melta or lascannon access outside vehicles nobody wants to take(aside the Stormraven).
Grey Templar wrote: So you think GKs should suck vs everything except Daemons?
Having to pay extra points for Str5 Stormbolters seems fair when you have no melta or lascannon access outside vehicles nobody wants to take(aside the Stormraven).
Depends. Do you think you've paid off the karma from 5th yet? GK made that edition miserable as soon as they came out.
You act like melta and lascannons are desirable or relevant. How cute. Melta is sometimes, vs SHW or SHV. But lascannons are pure garbage in 7th. Your own Dreadknight demonstrates why.
Melissia wrote: ... HWTs in infantry squads? That's a bit of a waste tbh.
Also that list you described just doesn't have the staying power and firepower needed for a modern top tier list.
Yup that way the guardsman are ablative wounds for the heavy weapon teams, as well as objective holders, and support the fight against MC's. With 120+ bodies on the table, conscripts, artillery, heavy teams, and comissars, there's plenty of staying power!
you just wasted ~190ish pt to get one heavy weapon iirc. Not to mention there's no mobility to take objectives, or staying power once you're there. 50 bodies might seem like a lot, but T3 5+ can only take you so far.
That's why you have conscripts with run run run, chimera vets to compliment them. Also, for a last cannon this way it's 70 points, and that comes with 8 bodies with each las cannon in the platoon, 10 total wounds. That's not a waste at all, considering they can be verasitle on what they fire at, and are difficult to remove with a commissar in a platoon blob!
I have an 1850 list that off of the top of my head looks like this:
HQ:
Company Command Squad A:
Company Commander
3 Plasma veterans
Vox Caster Veteran
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Company Command Squad B:
Company Commander
3 Plasma veterans
Vox Caster veteran
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Troops:
Company Platoon:
Platoon Command squad
Commissar
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Commissar with 50 conscripts
Veteran Squad:
3 Melta gun veterans
7 normal veterans
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Veteran Squad:
3 Melta gun veterans
7 normal veterans
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
So problems with that:
The guardsmen squads are ~8 wounds on T3 5+, or more with the defense line, but that then requires an order for them to not fire snap shots. Not to mention it's 81pt for one lascannon shot (70 if you don't count the PCS as a tax for it).
Conscripts are still T3 5+, and no save outside of whatever cover they can grab/GTG. They might stick around until the last man, but that won't take long.
Vets are decent, but with so few vehicles they'll be without a transport pretty quickly, which makes it hard to get those melta guns in range.
Wyverns/arty are good obviously, but with side AV10, they'll go down to mid strength shots pretty quick.
The manticore also has a minimum range of 36", so firing with them can be pretty hard depending on who goes first, and how fast they are.
Melissia wrote: ... HWTs in infantry squads? That's a bit of a waste tbh.
Also that list you described just doesn't have the staying power and firepower needed for a modern top tier list.
Yup that way the guardsman are ablative wounds for the heavy weapon teams, as well as objective holders, and support the fight against MC's. With 120+ bodies on the table, conscripts, artillery, heavy teams, and comissars, there's plenty of staying power!
you just wasted ~190ish pt to get one heavy weapon iirc. Not to mention there's no mobility to take objectives, or staying power once you're there. 50 bodies might seem like a lot, but T3 5+ can only take you so far.
That's why you have conscripts with run run run, chimera vets to compliment them. Also, for a last cannon this way it's 70 points, and that comes with 8 bodies with each las cannon in the platoon, 10 total wounds. That's not a waste at all, considering they can be verasitle on what they fire at, and are difficult to remove with a commissar in a platoon blob!
I have an 1850 list that off of the top of my head looks like this:
HQ:
Company Command Squad A:
Company Commander
3 Plasma veterans
Vox Caster Veteran
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Company Command Squad B:
Company Commander
3 Plasma veterans
Vox Caster veteran
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Troops:
Company Platoon:
Platoon Command squad
Commissar
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Commissar with 50 conscripts
Veteran Squad:
3 Melta gun veterans
7 normal veterans
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Veteran Squad:
3 Melta gun veterans
7 normal veterans
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
So problems with that:
The guardsmen squads are ~8 wounds on T3 5+, or more with the defense line, but that then requires an order for them to not fire snap shots. Not to mention it's 81pt for one lascannon shot (70 if you don't count the PCS as a tax for it).
Conscripts are still T3 5+, and no save outside of whatever cover they can grab/GTG. They might stick around until the last man, but that won't take long.
Vets are decent, but with so few vehicles they'll be without a transport pretty quickly, which makes it hard to get those melta guns in range.
Wyverns/arty are good obviously, but with side AV10, they'll go down to mid strength shots pretty quick.
The manticore also has a minimum range of 36", so firing with them can be pretty hard depending on who goes first, and how fast they are.
Guard wise, it's about as good of a list I could throw together.
Melissia wrote: ... HWTs in infantry squads? That's a bit of a waste tbh.
Also that list you described just doesn't have the staying power and firepower needed for a modern top tier list.
Yup that way the guardsman are ablative wounds for the heavy weapon teams, as well as objective holders, and support the fight against MC's. With 120+ bodies on the table, conscripts, artillery, heavy teams, and comissars, there's plenty of staying power!
you just wasted ~190ish pt to get one heavy weapon iirc. Not to mention there's no mobility to take objectives, or staying power once you're there. 50 bodies might seem like a lot, but T3 5+ can only take you so far.
That's why you have conscripts with run run run, chimera vets to compliment them. Also, for a last cannon this way it's 70 points, and that comes with 8 bodies with each las cannon in the platoon, 10 total wounds. That's not a waste at all, considering they can be verasitle on what they fire at, and are difficult to remove with a commissar in a platoon blob!
I have an 1850 list that off of the top of my head looks like this:
HQ:
Company Command Squad A:
Company Commander
3 Plasma veterans
Vox Caster Veteran
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Company Command Squad B:
Company Commander
3 Plasma veterans
Vox Caster veteran
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Troops:
Company Platoon:
Platoon Command squad
Commissar
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Infantry Squad, lascannon team
Commissar with 50 conscripts
Veteran Squad:
3 Melta gun veterans
7 normal veterans
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
Veteran Squad:
3 Melta gun veterans
7 normal veterans
In a Chimera with multi laser, and heavy bolter with dozer blades
So problems with that:
The guardsmen squads are ~8 wounds on T3 5+, or more with the defense line, but that then requires an order for them to not fire snap shots. Not to mention it's 81pt for one lascannon shot (70 if you don't count the PCS as a tax for it).
Conscripts are still T3 5+, and no save outside of whatever cover they can grab/GTG. They might stick around until the last man, but that won't take long.
Vets are decent, but with so few vehicles they'll be without a transport pretty quickly, which makes it hard to get those melta guns in range.
Wyverns/arty are good obviously, but with side AV10, they'll go down to mid strength shots pretty quick.
The manticore also has a minimum range of 36", so firing with them can be pretty hard depending on who goes first, and how fast they are.
Guard wise, it's about as good of a list I could throw together.
What would you bring at 1850?
Something similar, but probably with more auto cannons instead of lascannons, and valks for the vets.
Martel732 wrote: You can have psybolts, but not as +1 str. That never made any sense. They need to be anti-psyker rounds and anti-daemon rounds.
+1 str actually makes sense. fluffwise, they should be both +1 str AND ignore invulns. For balance, it can just be +1 str.
+1str also already exists as precedent. Psycannons are assault cannons with psybolts and suspensors. Psybolts give +1str, and suspensors let it move and fire.
And when Grey Knights become better at killing Eldar than anything else we'll all sit here and go...
Huh. 5th edition's back. Guess they made up for the Sins of Ward while us CSM players still get shafted by the Sins of Haines.
Martel732 wrote: Valkyries are fantastic for objective capping. I can tell you that for sure.
Their damage output is so bad though... Also chimeras help saturate the field with mech.
Vs what? Vs infantry it's fine. S4 large blast is not great, but it can do work vs crap that's holding an obj usually. Firewarriors, tac marines, whatever. Multilaser is sweet.
Martel732 wrote: Valkyries are fantastic for objective capping. I can tell you that for sure.
Their damage output is so bad though... Also chimeras help saturate the field with mech.
Vs what? Vs infantry it's fine. S4 large blast is not great, but it can do work vs crap that's holding an obj usually. Firewarriors, tac marines, whatever. Multilaser is sweet.
Could also grab vendetta instead I suppose with their 2 TL lascannons (they're 10 transport cap still right?) And yeah, multi laser is pretty good compared to most IoM heavy weapons.
Grey Templar wrote: So you think GKs should suck vs everything except Daemons?
Having to pay extra points for Str5 Stormbolters seems fair when you have no melta or lascannon access outside vehicles nobody wants to take(aside the Stormraven).
Depends. Do you think you've paid off the karma from 5th yet? GK made that edition miserable as soon as they came out.
You act like melta and lascannons are desirable or relevant. How cute. Melta is sometimes, vs SHW or SHV. But lascannons are pure garbage in 7th. Your own Dreadknight demonstrates why.
That karma was paid for by the codex sucking in previous edition. We deserved every once of cheese 5th edition gave us. The balance is paid in full.
Anyway, my point is that GKs simply don't have much in the way of ranged anti-tank. Buffing our bolter and autocannon type weapons a little seems like ample compensation.
On the other hand, name a tank in 7th ed that's actually a problem. I guess the free ones, lol. BA are no better off against that and we have melta coming out our ears.
GK have the original broken MC and massacre almost any list in CC (including mine). They can take a number in the "we get shot to pieces before CC" line of depression. Against GK, I have to run away and pray they don't catch me.
Martel732 wrote: You can have psybolts, but not as +1 str. That never made any sense. They need to be anti-psyker rounds and anti-daemon rounds.
+1 str actually makes sense. fluffwise, they should be both +1 str AND ignore invulns. For balance, it can just be +1 str.
+1str also already exists as precedent. Psycannons are assault cannons with psybolts and suspensors. Psybolts give +1str, and suspensors let it move and fire.
And when Grey Knights become better at killing Eldar than anything else we'll all sit here and go...
Huh. 5th edition's back. Guess they made up for the Sins of Ward while us CSM players still get shafted by the Sins of Haines.
Martel732 wrote: On the other hand, name a tank in 7th ed that's actually a problem. I guess the free ones, lol. BA are no better off against that and we have melta coming out our ears.
GK have the original broken MC and massacre almost any list in CC (including mine). They can take a number in the "we get shot to pieces before CC" line of depression. Against GK, I have to run away and pray they don't catch me.
Any tank? The mechanicus ordinatus stuff is pretty nasty.
Here is a great analysis from LVO 2016, its VERY clear who are competitive and who are not.
"...top spots are the domain of Eldar, Space Marine, Necron and Daemon players – all others need not apply, or are at the very least facing a very uphill battle."
There was a newer one from 2017 iirc in this thread.
Martel732 wrote: Is it? I've never heard a single complaint about it.
The choice is between a 180" range primary weapon 1 10" D AP1 blast w/ machine destroyer (Sagittar), or a beam style weapon (Ulator) that uses a 7" blast as the beam with 72" range, that's S5 vs infantry/bikes/beasts/cav/jetbikes, S8 vs MCs/non tank vehicles, S10 vs tanks, and D vs GMC/SHV/Fortifications, and is AP2. It also has pinning, armorbane, ignores cover, and instant death, and is fired by placing the template in contact with the front arc of the vehicle, and moving it in a straight line away (which means it never targets anything, so it can affect invis units). Both come with 3 volkite culverins (heavy 4 S6 AP5 45" with deflagrate).
Defensively it has 14/13/13 with 14HP and is a SHV obviously, restores one HP on a 6 if it lost a HP on the controlling player's turn, and a modified flare shield that starts as a -3 modifier for shooting attacks (both the D chart and strength) from the front/side arcs (or any side for barrage) but decreases the modifier to a -2 on the 2nd turn, and -1 on the 3rd or later turns, along with armored ceramite, and a 6++.
the Sagittar is 700pt, the Ulator is 1075pt, so expensive but dangerous, and very likely to survive for a few turns.
The balance in these tournaments (ITC, Adepticon) are definitely altered by their rules.
For instance, Adepticon just flat out bans AoD psychic powers. Why not let the underpowered marine factions use them, like BA & GK? It's not like having Electrodisplacement is going to suddenly make BA top tier.
I don't understand why these TOs go through the process of fundamentally changing some rules, while leaving things that are overpowered alone. It seems more like the motivation is to maintain the status quo of current 40k, when you just flat out ban some stuff.
DKs still suck down way more firepower than their points indicate, especially compared to equally costed vehices. T6 2+ is still brutal against most units.
They're ~225 points. They should soak a ton of firepower.
And from my experience they still die to stuff like plasma. Only 4 wounds. I've also lost track of the number of times I've died to a random bolter shot.
They are very good. But they're not even close to OP.
Wolfblade wrote: There was a newer one from 2017 iirc in this thread.
Martel732 wrote: Is it? I've never heard a single complaint about it.
The choice is between a 180" range primary weapon 1 10" D AP1 blast w/ machine destroyer (Sagittar), or a beam style weapon (Ulator) that uses a 7" blast as the beam with 72" range, that's S5 vs infantry/bikes/beasts/cav/jetbikes, S8 vs MCs/non tank vehicles, S10 vs tanks, and D vs GMC/SHV/Fortifications. It also has pinning, armorbane, ignores cover, and instant death, and is fired by placing the template in contact with the front arc of the vehicle, and moving it in a straight line away (which means it never targets anything, so it can affect invis units). Both come with 3 volkite culverins (heavy 4 S6 AP5 45" with deflagrate).
Defensively it has 14/13/13 with 14HP and is a SHV obviously, restores one HP on a 6 if it lost a HP on the controlling player's turn, and a modified flare shield that starts as a -3 modifier for shooting attacks (both the D chart and strength) from the front/side arcs (or any side for barrage) but decreases the modifier to a -2 on the 2nd turn, and -1 on the 3rd or later turns, along with armored ceramite, and a 6++.
the Sagittar is 700pt, the Ulator is 1075pt, so expensive but dangerous, and very likely to survive for a few turns.
... What :-o? Please tell me you totally made that up as a joke!
Wolfblade wrote: There was a newer one from 2017 iirc in this thread.
Martel732 wrote: Is it? I've never heard a single complaint about it.
The choice is between a 180" range primary weapon 1 10" D AP1 blast w/ machine destroyer (Sagittar), or a beam style weapon (Ulator) that uses a 7" blast as the beam with 72" range, that's S5 vs infantry/bikes/beasts/cav/jetbikes, S8 vs MCs/non tank vehicles, S10 vs tanks, and D vs GMC/SHV/Fortifications. It also has pinning, armorbane, ignores cover, and instant death, and is fired by placing the template in contact with the front arc of the vehicle, and moving it in a straight line away (which means it never targets anything, so it can affect invis units). Both come with 3 volkite culverins (heavy 4 S6 AP5 45" with deflagrate).
Defensively it has 14/13/13 with 14HP and is a SHV obviously, restores one HP on a 6 if it lost a HP on the controlling player's turn, and a modified flare shield that starts as a -3 modifier for shooting attacks (both the D chart and strength) from the front/side arcs (or any side for barrage) but decreases the modifier to a -2 on the 2nd turn, and -1 on the 3rd or later turns, along with armored ceramite, and a 6++.
the Sagittar is 700pt, the Ulator is 1075pt, so expensive but dangerous, and very likely to survive for a few turns.
... What :-o? Please tell me you totally made that up as a joke!
No, that's a real thing. It's a LoW for Cult mech armies (maybe skit too? I don't recall offhand.)
Keep in mind, one of these is most of an army generally, and you still need to buy the Admech CAD to unlock it which clocks in at a minimum of another ~400points for a bare bones HQ and troops, giving you a very low model count.
Maybe if you could take the ordinatus with say, guard or something that lets you put bodies on the field, but as is, it's really hard to maintain a board presence AND have clear firing lines to not murder your own army. It's good, but even with skittari you're running pretty thin on the numbers. The ulator scares everything, but only if they line up/have a low unit count.
(and it does count as a LoW for skittari I think, which means you just need to grab one of the IoMHQs like Cawl for a CAD)
Mock up list is:
Cawl (for the 4++ turn 1 to make some of the skittari more durable)
Comes out to 1850 with 9 units for the archmagos canticles, and everything can pop a +3 BS doctrina if needed for big damage turn 1
Klowny wrote: Where does everyone think the Ynnari rank?
Probably above CWE, as jetbikes don't get a boost from battle focus, but they do get the soulburst action. On the downside warp spiders are slightly less mobile.
Chaos Deamons, Dark Angels Wolfstar, Chaos Deamon, Cult Mechanicus War Convo, Eldar-Tau, Corsairs, Farsight Enclaves and Chaos Deamons. Also I think a Dark Eldar player almost made the top 11 with a majority DE army and only a tiny amount of Eldar.
So those are all doing good int eh current meta, but this was not factoring in the new Eldar release at all. So it's already out of date. From what I hear both GS 2 and GS3 adds some super powerful options to their respective factions. It all remains to see how the meta will play out.
I didn't say to nerf GK. I said don't give them psybolt ammo with nonsense rules like universal +1 str. GK can't work well because 2+ that's not on an MC doesn't work well.
Terminator spam's working out just fine for me. Its definitely a challenge though.
Psybolt ammo would give some needed shooting power thats somewhat lacking at the moment. Especially since its unlikely that Terminator armor is going to get some sort of buff anytime soon.
No, they'd suck with or without psybolt ammo in the game. I just think psybolt ammo is an incredibly ham-fisted "fix", and I honestly want nothing form that horrible 5th ed codex back in the game. At least Eldar have a tradition of being bs. GK were vomited forth from Matt Ward as the marines +3 special snowflakes.
GKs weren't broken in 5th because of Psybolt ammo. Or indeed anything in particular from the codex. They were simply optimized for 5th Edition's game mechanics more than anybody else. They took advantage of the core game mechanics more than other factions.
You'll remember that after other factions began getting 5th edition codices the GKs quickly fell behind. They were only super powerful for maybe the first year, then quickly leveled off.
Grey Templar wrote: GKs weren't broken in 5th because of Psybolt ammo. Or indeed anything in particular from the codex. They were simply optimized for 5th Edition's game mechanics more than anybody else. They took advantage of the core game mechanics more than other factions.
You'll remember that after other factions began getting 5th edition codices the GKs quickly fell behind. They were only super powerful for maybe the first year, then quickly leveled off.
They were the 2nd last 5th ed codex. They were never behind. Do you mean 6th?
And yes, psybolt ammo was broken. S6 heavy bolters? S7 assault cannons? S8 autocannons?
And yes, psybolt ammo was broken. S6 heavy bolters? S7 assault cannons? S8 autocannons?
Nope. Not even close. Nobody cares about heavy bolters, str5 or str6, they still suck. Str7 assault cannons are just Psycannons, those are not broken. Str8 autocannons were only on Dreadnoughts, and calling Dreadnoughts OP is just laughable. Str5 bolters were strong, but it was the only trick we had. Stormbolters are widely considered pretty weak-sauce.
And Psybolts wasn't free. It was 20 points per squad. It made your dudes 2.5 points more expensive each, didn't benefit the Psycannons, special characters had to buy their own psybolts at 5 points each.
And yes, psybolt ammo was broken. S6 heavy bolters? S7 assault cannons? S8 autocannons?
Nope. Not even close. Nobody cares about heavy bolters, str5 or str6, they still suck. Str7 assault cannons are just Psycannons, those are not broken. Str8 autocannons were only on Dreadnoughts, and calling Dreadnoughts OP is just laughable. Str5 bolters were strong, but it was the only trick we had. Stormbolters are widely considered pretty weak-sauce.
And Psybolts wasn't free. It was 20 points per squad. It made your dudes 2.5 points more expensive each, didn't benefit the Psycannons, special characters had to buy their own psybolts at 5 points each.
I'm beginning to think you never played 5th. It would explain a lot. Or you can't be objective in any way.
The click form Str 5 to str 6 is even more critical in 7th ed. No way should psybolts come back.
And yes, psybolt ammo was broken. S6 heavy bolters? S7 assault cannons? S8 autocannons?
Nope. Not even close. Nobody cares about heavy bolters, str5 or str6, they still suck. Str7 assault cannons are just Psycannons, those are not broken. Str8 autocannons were only on Dreadnoughts, and calling Dreadnoughts OP is just laughable. Str5 bolters were strong, but it was the only trick we had. Stormbolters are widely considered pretty weak-sauce.
And Psybolts wasn't free. It was 20 points per squad. It made your dudes 2.5 points more expensive each, didn't benefit the Psycannons, special characters had to buy their own psybolts at 5 points each.
I'm beginning to think you never played 5th. It would explain a lot. Or you can't be objective in any way.
I've been playing since 3rd edition.
5th Edition Grey Knights were broken for a short period of time, but it wasn't anything in particular about the codex, and it certainly wasn't Psybolts. It was a combination of just having a bunch of strong stuff that all together combined to being better than other codices. There was nothing you could point to and say "X is broken".
Really, I just think you are butthurt over your army sucking for such a long time and you're taking it out on boogymen from 2 editions in the past. Bringing back psybolts isn't going to make Grey Knights OP, nor is it going to make BAs better. Ask for better stuff for your codex, don't rail against other codices getting nice things.
Due to the vehicle penetration lottery, psybolts weren't as horrifying vs vehicles as they would be in 7th, I'll grant you that. But given that they were up against a motley collection of 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition lists with varying degrees of competence, the psybolts were WAY over the top at the time.
Have no fear. We've seen GWs idea of good things for the BA. Rather lackluster, that. The GK special snowflakes haven't gotten their stuff yet, but I'm sure it'll be far superior.
I definitely agree BAs need a bunch of help, but nerfing other codices down to your level isn't the answer
I think the opposite, some codexes need a huge nerf and armies like orks, AM, tyranids and even BA should be near mid-top tiers with their current rules. Some things are way too overpowered and giving new overpowered things to other armies would be a bad answer. Things like D weapons should never existed.
I definitely agree BAs need a bunch of help, but nerfing other codices down to your level isn't the answer
I think the opposite, some codexes need a huge nerf and armies like orks, AM, tyranids and even BA should be near mid-top tiers with their current rules. Some things are way too overpowered and giving new overpowered things to other armies would be a bad answer. Things like D weapons should never existed.
I am ok with some D weapons when it is like an expensive model and a single shot. My big issue is D templates and entire squads of it. Take wraithguard. take em back to str 10 ap2 12" guns and one per 5 can pay points for a str d 12" shot. their str D flamers are just... outright game breaking though. Also super heavies str D explosion is dumb. oh look that squad attacked and killed a imperial knight... and vanished into the warp with it.
They're also contributing to the warp charge pool, have 2 set powers that aren't trash, are less spendy than other terminators and have virtually 0 tax to them as well as having OK weapon options, grenades and come stock with non-unweildy weapons.
Marmatag wrote: Wait, how to do GK have the best terminators?
Not joking, genuinely curious, did I miss something?
They're troops.
And...?
If you really want terminators most other factions have formations that make it just as easy to get them, with better benefits.
ObSec and AP3 force weapons for basically no extra cost. Pretty solid considering how awful most stock terminator squads are these days.
This.
Further, you can deepstrike them on top of objectives in your opponent's deployment zone and bunker them down to hold it.
2+, 5++ and whatever cover you can find makes them pretty hard to dislodge for SM, Cron and Eldar dakka, they're not exactly wimps in Melee either. So they're hard to shift and if you can't shift them they get the points.
Other Terminators take up more useful force org slots and aren't particularly useful in those slots.
GKs basically don't have to pay the troop tax most factions have to deal with. Taking 2 units of relatively useless and inefficient stuff so you can field your list. Terminators do the bulk of the work for the army, so you lose no efficiency.
Chaos Deamons, Dark Angels Wolfstar, Chaos Deamon, Cult Mechanicus War Convo, Eldar-Tau, Corsairs, Farsight Enclaves and Chaos Deamons. Also I think a Dark Eldar player almost made the top 11 with a majority DE army and only a tiny amount of Eldar.
So those are all doing good int eh current meta, but this was not factoring in the new Eldar release at all. So it's already out of date. From what I hear both GS 2 and GS3 adds some super powerful options to their respective factions. It all remains to see how the meta will play out.
IIRC, the Dark Eldar army was barely out of the top 8. Reaver spam backed by venoms, and a small amount of Craftworld
Marmatag wrote: Wait, how to do GK have the best terminators?
Not joking, genuinely curious, did I miss something?
They're troops.
And...?
If you really want terminators most other factions have formations that make it just as easy to get them, with better benefits.
ObSec and AP3 force weapons for basically no extra cost. Pretty solid considering how awful most stock terminator squads are these days.
This.
Further, you can deepstrike them on top of objectives in your opponent's deployment zone and bunker them down to hold it.
2+, 5++ and whatever cover you can find makes them pretty hard to dislodge for SM, Cron and Eldar dakka, they're not exactly wimps in Melee either. So they're hard to shift and if you can't shift them they get the points.
Other Terminators take up more useful force org slots and aren't particularly useful in those slots.
tactical terminators should be troops in every space marine/ CSM codex at a squad size of 3 and 1 heavy weapon per 3
Speaking as a 'cron player, DE have some merit here. They're effective if you put them all in raiders and such with some heat lances. That and their small massed numbers works somewhat well against the 10-man warrior squads, as they auto 4+ on wounds and can put dozens of shots into them. I'm not even complaining about my armies power level, they're really good. But I am saying DE can be pretty good with some fast glass cannons. Incubi aren't the best, but the hit at I5 and can really dish it out.
Asura Varuna wrote: Tier 1: Eldar, Necrons, SM, DA, Tau
Tier 2: Chaos Demons, Admech/Skitarii, Knights, SWs, Nids
Tier 3: GKs, IG, DE, Harlequins
Tier 4: Orks, CSM
Harlequins are Number 2, IG number 4, I would but BA at 3,. and Cosairs at 1 without any nerfs (ITC nerfs places them in number 2), KDK number 3
I play Harlequins and follow them as to I wanted to play tournaments with them. They given the right powers can also deal with SMDS's if they are not Psychic shut down. DS's are for sure a weakness and honestly... Loads of basic dudes. Large AFSM hoard armies like 50 SM with 12 vehicles. They do great against Elite or low count armies, also great against Knights and Grav spam.
