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...then why are you opposing S5 Stormbolters?

 Quickjager wrote:
...then why are you opposing S5 Stormbolters?

Because BAs suck

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
...then why are you opposing S5 Stormbolters?

Because BAs suck

No, they'd suck with or without psybolt ammo in the game. I just think psybolt ammo is an incredibly ham-fisted "fix", and I honestly want nothing form that horrible 5th ed codex back in the game. At least Eldar have a tradition of being bs. GK were vomited forth from Matt Ward as the marines +3 special snowflakes.

GKs weren't broken in 5th because of Psybolt ammo. Or indeed anything in particular from the codex. They were simply optimized for 5th Edition's game mechanics more than anybody else. They took advantage of the core game mechanics more than other factions.

You'll remember that after other factions began getting 5th edition codices the GKs quickly fell behind. They were only super powerful for maybe the first year, then quickly leveled off.

Klowny wrote:
Where does everyone think the Ynnari rank?

Somewhere under the heading "Please Delete".

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs weren't broken in 5th because of Psybolt ammo. Or indeed anything in particular from the codex. They were simply optimized for 5th Edition's game mechanics more than anybody else. They took advantage of the core game mechanics more than other factions.

You'll remember that after other factions began getting 5th edition codices the GKs quickly fell behind. They were only super powerful for maybe the first year, then quickly leveled off.

They were the 2nd last 5th ed codex. They were never behind. Do you mean 6th?

And yes, psybolt ammo was broken. S6 heavy bolters? S7 assault cannons? S8 autocannons?

Martel732 wrote:


And yes, psybolt ammo was broken. S6 heavy bolters? S7 assault cannons? S8 autocannons?

Nope. Not even close. Nobody cares about heavy bolters, str5 or str6, they still suck. Str7 assault cannons are just Psycannons, those are not broken. Str8 autocannons were only on Dreadnoughts, and calling Dreadnoughts OP is just laughable. Str5 bolters were strong, but it was the only trick we had. Stormbolters are widely considered pretty weak-sauce.

And Psybolts wasn't free. It was 20 points per squad. It made your dudes 2.5 points more expensive each, didn't benefit the Psycannons, special characters had to buy their own psybolts at 5 points each.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


And yes, psybolt ammo was broken. S6 heavy bolters? S7 assault cannons? S8 autocannons?

Nope. Not even close. Nobody cares about heavy bolters, str5 or str6, they still suck. Str7 assault cannons are just Psycannons, those are not broken. Str8 autocannons were only on Dreadnoughts, and calling Dreadnoughts OP is just laughable. Str5 bolters were strong, but it was the only trick we had. Stormbolters are widely considered pretty weak-sauce.

And Psybolts wasn't free. It was 20 points per squad. It made your dudes 2.5 points more expensive each, didn't benefit the Psycannons, special characters had to buy their own psybolts at 5 points each.

I'm beginning to think you never played 5th. It would explain a lot. Or you can't be objective in any way.

The click form Str 5 to str 6 is even more critical in 7th ed. No way should psybolts come back.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


And yes, psybolt ammo was broken. S6 heavy bolters? S7 assault cannons? S8 autocannons?

Nope. Not even close. Nobody cares about heavy bolters, str5 or str6, they still suck. Str7 assault cannons are just Psycannons, those are not broken. Str8 autocannons were only on Dreadnoughts, and calling Dreadnoughts OP is just laughable. Str5 bolters were strong, but it was the only trick we had. Stormbolters are widely considered pretty weak-sauce.

And Psybolts wasn't free. It was 20 points per squad. It made your dudes 2.5 points more expensive each, didn't benefit the Psycannons, special characters had to buy their own psybolts at 5 points each.

I'm beginning to think you never played 5th. It would explain a lot. Or you can't be objective in any way.

I've been playing since 3rd edition.

5th Edition Grey Knights were broken for a short period of time, but it wasn't anything in particular about the codex, and it certainly wasn't Psybolts. It was a combination of just having a bunch of strong stuff that all together combined to being better than other codices. There was nothing you could point to and say "X is broken".

Really, I just think you are butthurt over your army sucking for such a long time and you're taking it out on boogymen from 2 editions in the past. Bringing back psybolts isn't going to make Grey Knights OP, nor is it going to make BAs better. Ask for better stuff for your codex, don't rail against other codices getting nice things.

Due to the vehicle penetration lottery, psybolts weren't as horrifying vs vehicles as they would be in 7th, I'll grant you that. But given that they were up against a motley collection of 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition lists with varying degrees of competence, the psybolts were WAY over the top at the time.

Have no fear. We've seen GWs idea of good things for the BA. Rather lackluster, that. The GK special snowflakes haven't gotten their stuff yet, but I'm sure it'll be far superior.

That's like complaining that Guard are broken if they ever get buffed, because leafblower was a thing.

 Melissia wrote:
That's like complaining that Guard are broken if they ever get buffed, because leafblower was a thing.

Maybe. But artillery seems very appropriate and psybolts don't. Find another way to make GK work.

Psybolts are appropriate. Psychically charged bolt rounds that hit harder than a normal bolt round makes total sense.

Wait, how to do GK have the best terminators?

Not joking, genuinely curious, did I miss something?

They're the cheapest.

 Marmatag wrote:
Wait, how to do GK have the best terminators?

Not joking, genuinely curious, did I miss something?

They're troops.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Psybolts are appropriate. Psychically charged bolt rounds that hit harder than a normal bolt round makes total sense.

It makes more sense to affect warp-based creatures and effects. Not universal +1 str.

 Grey Templar wrote:


I definitely agree BAs need a bunch of help, but nerfing other codices down to your level isn't the answer

I think the opposite, some codexes need a huge nerf and armies like orks, AM, tyranids and even BA should be near mid-top tiers with their current rules. Some things are way too overpowered and giving new overpowered things to other armies would be a bad answer. Things like D weapons should never existed.

 Blackie wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


I definitely agree BAs need a bunch of help, but nerfing other codices down to your level isn't the answer

I think the opposite, some codexes need a huge nerf and armies like orks, AM, tyranids and even BA should be near mid-top tiers with their current rules. Some things are way too overpowered and giving new overpowered things to other armies would be a bad answer. Things like D weapons should never existed.

I am ok with some D weapons when it is like an expensive model and a single shot. My big issue is D templates and entire squads of it. Take wraithguard. take em back to str 10 ap2 12" guns and one per 5 can pay points for a str d 12" shot. their str D flamers are just... outright game breaking though. Also super heavies str D explosion is dumb. oh look that squad attacked and killed a imperial knight... and vanished into the warp with it.

Actually i really like single shot d weapons to give large expensive powerful models a hard counter. Get too greedy and become vulnerable to d.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Wait, how to do GK have the best terminators?

Not joking, genuinely curious, did I miss something?

They're troops.

And...?

If you really want terminators most other factions have formations that make it just as easy to get them, with better benefits.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Wait, how to do GK have the best terminators?

Not joking, genuinely curious, did I miss something?

They're troops.

And...?

If you really want terminators most other factions have formations that make it just as easy to get them, with better benefits.

ObSec and AP3 force weapons for basically no extra cost. Pretty solid considering how awful most stock terminator squads are these days.

They're also contributing to the warp charge pool, have 2 set powers that aren't trash, are less spendy than other terminators and have virtually 0 tax to them as well as having OK weapon options, grenades and come stock with non-unweildy weapons.

The point everyone is dancing around is, yea they might be the best terminators but they're still TERMINATORS; thus they default to being trash.

Trash? Hardly. Underpowered, yes.

Grey Knights run terminators better than anyone else. Even enough to be mildly competitive.

They're also the only real choice in the codex. Cause PAGK are awful.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Wait, how to do GK have the best terminators?

Not joking, genuinely curious, did I miss something?

They're troops.

And...?

If you really want terminators most other factions have formations that make it just as easy to get them, with better benefits.

ObSec and AP3 force weapons for basically no extra cost. Pretty solid considering how awful most stock terminator squads are these days.

This.
Further, you can deepstrike them on top of objectives in your opponent's deployment zone and bunker them down to hold it.
2+, 5++ and whatever cover you can find makes them pretty hard to dislodge for SM, Cron and Eldar dakka, they're not exactly wimps in Melee either. So they're hard to shift and if you can't shift them they get the points.

Other Terminators take up more useful force org slots and aren't particularly useful in those slots.

GKs basically don't have to pay the troop tax most factions have to deal with. Taking 2 units of relatively useless and inefficient stuff so you can field your list. Terminators do the bulk of the work for the army, so you lose no efficiency.

 Gamgee wrote:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/02/07/las-vegas-open-2017-top-8-lists-pictures/

So in order.

Chaos Deamons, Dark Angels Wolfstar, Chaos Deamon, Cult Mechanicus War Convo, Eldar-Tau, Corsairs, Farsight Enclaves and Chaos Deamons. Also I think a Dark Eldar player almost made the top 11 with a majority DE army and only a tiny amount of Eldar.

So those are all doing good int eh current meta, but this was not factoring in the new Eldar release at all. So it's already out of date. From what I hear both GS 2 and GS3 adds some super powerful options to their respective factions. It all remains to see how the meta will play out.

IIRC, the Dark Eldar army was barely out of the top 8. Reaver spam backed by venoms, and a small amount of Craftworld

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Wait, how to do GK have the best terminators?

Not joking, genuinely curious, did I miss something?

They're troops.

And...?

If you really want terminators most other factions have formations that make it just as easy to get them, with better benefits.

ObSec and AP3 force weapons for basically no extra cost. Pretty solid considering how awful most stock terminator squads are these days.

This.
Further, you can deepstrike them on top of objectives in your opponent's deployment zone and bunker them down to hold it.
2+, 5++ and whatever cover you can find makes them pretty hard to dislodge for SM, Cron and Eldar dakka, they're not exactly wimps in Melee either. So they're hard to shift and if you can't shift them they get the points.

Other Terminators take up more useful force org slots and aren't particularly useful in those slots.

tactical terminators should be troops in every space marine/ CSM codex at a squad size of 3 and 1 heavy weapon per 3

Speaking as a 'cron player, DE have some merit here. They're effective if you put them all in raiders and such with some heat lances. That and their small massed numbers works somewhat well against the 10-man warrior squads, as they auto 4+ on wounds and can put dozens of shots into them. I'm not even complaining about my armies power level, they're really good. But I am saying DE can be pretty good with some fast glass cannons. Incubi aren't the best, but the hit at I5 and can really dish it out.