No Supplements, detachments from other books or anything like this, just the most powerful build possible from your current codex how would you rank them?
I think its probably going to be DE, Tyrnids or Orks.
I wouldn't know about DE but Orks and Tyranids can easily handle themselves without supplements (granted that's with their most powerful builds, i.e. Ork boyz hordes and Tyranid flying circuses).
Definitely CSM are the weakest codex, I almost always have to take daemon/renegade/FW units in order to even have a chance of winning a battle.
mrhappyface wrote: I wouldn't know about DE but Orks and Tyranids can easily handle themselves without supplements (granted that's with their most powerful builds, i.e. Ork boyz hordes and Tyranid flying circuses).
Definitely CSM are the weakest codex, I almost always have to take daemon/renegade/FW units in order to even have a chance of winning a battle.
I only play purely for gaks & giggles, and love me my Tzeentchian hordes... but man, it's getting to the point that it's just not even funny anymore how truly awful our codex is.
It'd be nice for once to not be that guy who is forced to ask every potential opponent to take pity on them and dial back their lists to 'limp noodle Lv.0 difficulty please'.
CSM, Orks and IG all share the same spot IMO. They have different strengths and weakness but that's really arguing over semantics compared to how easily they all get trashed by nearly every other army.
Zewrath wrote: CSM, Orks and IG all share the same spot IMO. They have different strengths and weakness but that's really arguing over semantics compared to how easily they all get trashed by nearly every other army.
Except that both Orks & IG can readily trash the poor CSM's quite easily...
People seem to forget that Chaos Marines are the only army in the game that literally come with 0 special rules/abilities in their base form. EVERYTHING a Chaos Marine can take has to be paid for; Marks of Chaos, VotLW, Icons...
Yet these basic forms of added special rules come built into every other basic unit in the game. The only things anyone else ever pays for is wargear/transport, etc...
Chaos Marines have been playing at a massive pts handicap since 2007, while also receiving not a single new upgrade or similar. (only "new" things we've had in 10 years is a solid flyer, a single mediocre daemon engine, a single badly overcosted daemon engine, and two pretty much unplayably awful units!)
Meanwhile, even the likes of Orks & IG have been getting new toys & 'oodles of new and/or re-worked model kits.
Seriously, go look in your local GW store at the IG/Ork/DE/BA sections of the 40k wall. You'll find a nearly complete model line with plenty of options, even if those armies struggle to compete against the top lists from the 7.5ed books.
Now go look at the garbage heap that's the CSM section, and you soon realise that we have a half-missing model line that's still stuck in 3rd/4th edition.
+1 BA is the worst. Well... It was the worst, and then they nerfed it so idk what it is right now.
They're supposed to be fast, elite, melee badasses. However they can't fight in CC nearly as well as normal Marines (who are pretty craptastic at chopping stuff in the first place). Even if they could fight, they have no way to get to CC without being blown off the table and the kicker is they can only be considered a melee army if they charge. If they get charged, they may as well be a bunch of drunkards with swords who don't know how to use them. Needless to say their shooting is nothing to write home about. I'd say BA shooting is marginally worse than CSM and a smidge better than DE ONLY becauseof overcharged engines At the end of the day though, DE or CSM. will pimp slap BA in combat every time.
If you really want to know this look for LVO result statistics or some other big tournament results and ignore all comments here. All players seem to be biased that their own army is the worst.
oldzoggy wrote: If you really want to know this look for LVO result statistics or some other big tournament results and ignore all comments here. All players seem to be biased that their own army is the worst.
No they're really not...
High level competitive tournaments are about the single worst measuring stick possible for the bottom feeders, since their lists tend to be either bolted onto another army as allies (BA's/IG/DE), or else at best take just the 1-3 or so decent units in a min CAD and then spend 75%+ of their pts on a proper army (CSM's).
The only garbage tier army who can get valid results from tourney data are Tyranids, because they have no actual ally options & are thus forced to only ever run mono-Codex. (as pretty much every single event in existence bans CtA level allies!)
mrhappyface wrote: I wouldn't know about DE but Orks and Tyranids can easily handle themselves without supplements (granted that's with their most powerful builds, i.e. Ork boyz hordes and Tyranid flying circuses). Definitely CSM are the weakest codex, I almost always have to take daemon/renegade/FW units in order to even have a chance of winning a battle.
CSM player
Experiment 626 wrote: Chaos Marines. Even Orks & Tyranids at least have 1 cookie-cutter build that can drag them up to the upper middle tables at a Tournament.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Owning both Dark Eldar and Orks, it's difficult to decide which of my armies sucks the most in this edition with their utterly gak army books.
Probably Orks, after all those years and editions surviving on the once great Kelly book, to then get almost universal nerfs and that... that mob rule change... that fething affront.
Yeah, I can do things with my Dark Eldar, my orks just break my heart these days. And I used to break face with them, a lot.
You get the idea, polls and discussions like these are just as informative as shouting matches between toddlers. There is noting wrong with these discussions, It is just that most players are extremely biased. If you want an answer search for actual data or collect your own data based on the huge collection of online casual battle reports.
the_scotsman wrote: Every army I own is the weakest army, every army that beats me is the most overpowered. Every player I beat is a terrible scrub who needs to L2P.
Have we summed up the thread yet?
No, what I have gathered is that there are 2-3 codices that are considered weak by almost everyone. Everyone else is kinda meh. and then there are some super powers.
the_scotsman wrote: Every army I own is the weakest army, every army that beats me is the most overpowered. Every player I beat is a terrible scrub who needs to L2P.
Have we summed up the thread yet?
No, what I have gathered is that there are 2-3 codices that are considered weak by almost everyone. Everyone else is kinda meh. and then there are some super powers.
Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, Dark Angels, Tau, Daemons can play on their own and roflstomp their way to the top tables in any tournament.
Space Wolves are still unknown for the most part just how well they've made out with their CotW expansion changes, though Wulfen are freaking insane!
Khornekin, Ad Mech/Skittari & Sisters do well enough, but really require allies and/or get shoehorned easily into set builds to hang out with the big boys.
Grey Knights, Guard, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels have a couple good formation(s), but absolutely require allied help to compete. However, all of them have stellar ally pools to draw from.
Orks, Tyranids are entirely shoehorned into a cookie-cutter build to compete.
Chaos Marines now only exist as Sorcerers, min Cultist 'tax', and occasionally some Nurgle Oblits/Bikers/Spawn, min/maxed Plaguemarines & Helturkey.
Mostly, you can actually remove the title "Chaos Space Marines" from the codex cover, and replace it instead with "IA:13 and/or Daemons with a few Sorcerers & sometimes friends".
the_scotsman wrote: Every army I own is the weakest army, every army that beats me is the most overpowered. Every player I beat is a terrible scrub who needs to L2P.
Have we summed up the thread yet?
No, what I have gathered is that there are 2-3 codices that are considered weak by almost everyone. Everyone else is kinda meh. and then there are some super powers.
Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, Dark Angels, Tau, Daemons can play on their own and roflstomp their way to the top tables in any tournament.
Space Wolves are still unknown for the most part just how well they've made out with their CotW expansion changes, though Wulfen are freaking insane!
Khornekin, Ad Mech/Skittari & Sisters do well enough, but really require allies and/or get shoehorned easily into set builds to hang out with the big boys.
Grey Knights, Guard, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels have a couple good formation(s), but absolutely require allied help to compete. However, all of them have stellar ally pools to draw from.
Orks, Tyranids are entirely shoehorned into a cookie-cutter build to compete.
Chaos Marines now only exist as Sorcerers, min Cultist 'tax', and occasionally some Nurgle Oblits/Bikers/Spawn, min/maxed Plaguemarines & Helturkey.
Mostly, you can actually remove the title "Chaos Space Marines" from the codex cover, and replace it instead with "IA:13 and/or Daemons with a few Sorcerers & sometimes friends".
So what you're saying is, csm models can be used in competitively viable KDK lists, or allied with competitive daemons and can reach top tables
While meanwhile, orks and nids who have no allies or DE who have only appeared as minimum allies for Eldar (and who are now totally obsolete with corsairs) are in way better shape?
Oh, and remember that viable cookie cutter Ork build with the green tide formation? Yeah, GW updated the supplement that was in to remove it
There's no point in tacking on allies to BA. The BA just drag down whatever list they are in. Just replace the whole BA list with a vanilla list. They do everything better. I actually wish flesh tearer strike force didn't exist, because then everyone wouldn't steal our drop pods.
Based on what you can do with the codex alone, no allies or dataslates?
I'm going to have to say CSM. Was looking through the codex the other day to try a piece together a Thousand Sons army, and 90% of the codex is just so... bland or downright useless.
That 10% of "decent" is basically the Helturkey, MoN Bikers, Cultists, ML3 Psykers, Havoc Launchers and Flying DP's.
BA are a close second, they only have one unit of interest to me, Assault Marines with Meltaguns, which vanilla do not get.
Martel732 wrote: " but absolutely require allied help to compete."
There's no point in tacking on allies to BA. The BA just drag down whatever list they are in. Just replace the whole BA list with a vanilla list. They do everything better. I actually wish flesh tearer strike force didn't exist, because then everyone wouldn't steal our drop pods.
That's all part of Seth's master plan to rebuild the Flesh Tearers. He's saving all of those rental fees so he can buy a better codex.
Zewrath wrote: CSM, Orks and IG all share the same spot IMO. They have different strengths and weakness but that's really arguing over semantics compared to how easily they all get trashed by nearly every other army.
Except that both Orks & IG can readily trash the poor CSM's quite easily...
People seem to forget that Chaos Marines are the only army in the game that literally come with 0 special rules/abilities in their base form. EVERYTHING a Chaos Marine can take has to be paid for; Marks of Chaos, VotLW, Icons...
Yet these basic forms of added special rules come built into every other basic unit in the game. The only things anyone else ever pays for is wargear/transport, etc...
Chaos Marines have been playing at a massive pts handicap since 2007, while also receiving not a single new upgrade or similar. (only "new" things we've had in 10 years is a solid flyer, a single mediocre daemon engine, a single badly overcosted daemon engine, and two pretty much unplayably awful units!)
Meanwhile, even the likes of Orks & IG have been getting new toys & 'oodles of new and/or re-worked model kits.
Seriously, go look in your local GW store at the IG/Ork/DE/BA sections of the 40k wall. You'll find a nearly complete model line with plenty of options, even if those armies struggle to compete against the top lists from the 7.5ed books.
Now go look at the garbage heap that's the CSM section, and you soon realise that we have a half-missing model line that's still stuck in 3rd/4th edition.
Ignoring the completely irrelevant part about the model line, no, CSM can quite easily beat IG when they optimize, maxing out warp charges and fishing for invisibility on Spawns and/or bikes with MoN and grats, you can now proceed to ignore 99% of any relevant firepower from IG and destroy any vehicle they have due to AV10 rear (none of which can overwatch or hit you because of invisibility) and don't use the infantry blob argument, none uses them anymore because they achieve nothing and die easily to massed fire and even then, you got helldrakes to fix that problem.
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Zewrath wrote: CSM, Orks and IG all share the same spot IMO. They have different strengths and weakness but that's really arguing over semantics compared to how easily they all get trashed by nearly every other army.
Also, read the bold part.
Perhaps you should've read my post properly, instead of insisting that your special snowflake army is the biggest dumpster fire of the other two sitting next to you.
CSM are the most strongest codex ever. We have Possessed that make 2 S5 attacks for mere 26 points, sometimes even with Ap3, and all that on already mighty superhuman space marine statline.
There are horrifying Monstrous creatures that have Toughness 5, 4 Wounds and 5++ for just 160 points. They are incredible against gravguns cause they dont have armor in-built.
And lets not forget about the mighty Mutilators causing the enemy to leave their positions and run in fear as they materialise around them, preparing to charge.
Also no other faction have Giant Crabs with power claws iirc, nor do they have d66 table of Hammer of Wrath.
But nothing gives more fun than seeing your Helbrute with Plasma cannon shoot at the enemy with blazing hatred, melting himself in 2 turns while opponent ignores it as not enough treat.
Sonic Keyboard wrote: CSM are the most strongest codex ever. We have Possessed that make 2 S5 attacks for mere 26 points, sometimes even with Ap3, and all that on already mighty superhuman space marine statline.
There are horrifying Monstrous creatures that have Toughness 5, 4 Wounds and 5++ for just 160 points. They are incredible against gravguns cause they dont have armor in-built.
And lets not forget about the mighty Mutilators causing the enemy to leave their positions and run in fear as they materialise around them, preparing to charge.
Also no other faction have Giant Crabs with power claws iirc, nor do they have d66 table of Hammer of Wrath.
But nothing gives more fun than seeing your Helbrute with Plasma cannon shoot at the enemy with blazing hatred, melting himself in 2 turns while opponent ignores it as not enough treat.
I enjoyed every part of that post. Here, take all my exalts!
Unit1126PLL wrote: Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.
Really? spamming melta isn't a good enough way to bring down a MC? How about the ridiculous organ gun in the back field shooting D6 S8AP1 shots a turn? is that not enough ways to kill a MC or GMC?
Just as a reminder, the topic is which CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not codex with supplements and allies, im asking for the CODEX which is weakest BY ITSELF.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.
Really? spamming melta isn't a good enough way to bring down a MC? How about the ridiculous organ gun in the back field shooting D6 S8AP1 shots a turn? is that not enough ways to kill a MC or GMC?
Just as a reminder, the topic is which CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not codex with supplements and allies, im asking for the CODEX which is weakest BY ITSELF.
No, melta is an antitank gun. The way you kill MCs is high ROF. A meltagun is basically a gravgun with one shot, a short range, and sometimes wounds worse against certain targets (like Wraithknights).
And no, a tank that 50% of the time is about the same as a lascannon predator is not a good way to kill an MC or GMC. Unless you think the Predator Annihilator is a great way to kill MCs or GMCs...
Unit1126PLL wrote: Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.
Really? spamming melta isn't a good enough way to bring down a MC? How about the ridiculous organ gun in the back field shooting D6 S8AP1 shots a turn? is that not enough ways to kill a MC or GMC?
Just as a reminder, the topic is which CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not codex with supplements and allies, im asking for the CODEX which is weakest BY ITSELF.
Melta sucks vs MCs. They can practically ignore it because of the poor ROF.
All 'umie dexs rely powa's of da warp an all dey frenz jus ta keep us from krumpin'em in a gud fite
soon as big mek figas out ow dem elfie gitz fire dem big gunz on dem big elfie warbosses wez gunna boltum to da deff dreadz an show dem umie gitz we dun need no stinkin elfie battle brudderz
now lemme sho ya dis new stick da weirdboy giv me 'ee sed it make boyz invisable like da umies with da funny grav gunz.
we gonna cast it on dem stormboyz and doze bikerboyz an dey gun giv it anuver go see?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.
Really? spamming melta isn't a good enough way to bring down a MC? How about the ridiculous organ gun in the back field shooting D6 S8AP1 shots a turn? is that not enough ways to kill a MC or GMC?
Just as a reminder, the topic is which CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not codex with supplements and allies, im asking for the CODEX which is weakest BY ITSELF.
No, melta is an antitank gun. The way you kill MCs is high ROF. A meltagun is basically a gravgun with one shot, a short range, and sometimes wounds worse against certain targets (like Wraithknights).
And no, a tank that 50% of the time is about the same as a lascannon predator is not a good way to kill an MC or GMC. Unless you think the Predator Annihilator is a great way to kill MCs or GMCs...
So having a squad of sisters with a Melta and a multi melta which usually means 1-2 wounds isn't good? its all about rate of fire? so what are the other sisters doing with there bolters?
The MC in question also matters a lot. A Carnifex actually is somewhat afraid of meltaguns, a couple squads with a couple meltas each backed up by boltguns can likely kill it in one round. An FNP'd Riptide with a 3++ invul is going to take ~40 meltagun shots to kill.
Vaktathi wrote: The MC in question also matters a lot. A Carnifex actually is somewhat afraid of meltaguns, a couple squads with a couple meltas each backed up by boltguns can likely kill it in one round. An FNP'd Riptide with a 3++ invul is going to take ~40 meltagun shots to kill.
That's a carnifex in the open with no venomthrope support. But yes, it takes fewer than a Riptide.
Hmm Tyrants Legion might be the weakest army list but as for the codex... Harlequins do seem to be the weakest. Without allies they lack a number of the tools needed to get by in today's meta:
- small open topped assault transports
- no reliable way to get past overwatch
- no durability outside of blessing (which for some reason cannot be cast within a transport...)
- over dependence on melee and this edition's bias away from assault (why don't solitaires hit on 2's?)
- over dependence on formations (especially so when some clubs/tourneys restrict formations altogether)
- very little in terms of ranged offense
- incredibly restrictive detachment made worse with no HQ
mrveng wrote: CSM by far. Can't even call it current as it hasn't been updated in ages. Can't compete with any other armor without help from Daemons or FW.
It's not even, "with help from Daemons or FW", but rather, it's to the point of just being a Daemon or FW army with a couple Sorcs, min Cultists and maybe some Oblits or Spawn bolted on as an afterthought!
Even the lowly BA's aren't that bad... They've got some decent formations, and allying in the likes of Tiggy + Gravcents alone can really pick up what's still a 50%+ 'Codex: Blood Angels' army.
You're actually lucky if you see even 20% of a Chaos army bring anything from the CSM codex, and the only time you'll even see an honest, actual "Chaos Space Marine" is in a purely 'for fun/target practice only' army.
Martel732 wrote: "nd allying in the likes of Tiggy + Gravcents alone can really pick up what's still a 50%+ 'Codex: Blood Angels' army. "
No, it really can't. Because the 50% could have been vanilla marines.
BA formations are largely garbage.
You can still get a decent BA army with;
HQ: Lv2 Libby + Sang Priest
Elites: 1-2 Fragiosos in Pods + obligatory DC unit
Troops: min Scouts for table control, or maybe 1 Scout + 5 Podded Tacticals w/Heavy flamer/Melta+combi-melta.
Fast: lone Drop Pod on it's own (for Tiggy + Gravcents), + 2x 3 Bikers w/all grav
Add in Tiggy + Gravcents.
Throw the Sang Priest into the Gravcentstar and now they also gain FnP to boot!
Sure it's not exactly how Blood Angels should play, but that's still a helluva lot better situation than what the poor CSM's are in... At least with Blood Angels you (shockingly) see some actual Blood Angel marines show up!
Do both armies need help? Absolutely they do!
But overall, the problems Blood Angels face is simply that they're still pre-7.5ed Marines. I'd bet my hat that when they get their update, they'll get all the basic SM goodies such as grav cannons, squadroned vehicles w/bonuses, Bloodcurion on par with at least DA's Lion's Blade, (hopefully) the Dreadnought boost...
That's a lot better than what it's going to take to bring Chaos Marines back up to anything close to respectable.
Martel732 wrote: "nd allying in the likes of Tiggy + Gravcents alone can really pick up what's still a 50%+ 'Codex: Blood Angels' army. "
No, it really can't. Because the 50% could have been vanilla marines.
BA formations are largely garbage.
You can still get a decent BA army with;
HQ: Lv2 Libby + Sang Priest
Elites: 1-2 Fragiosos in Pods + obligatory DC unit
Troops: min Scouts for table control, or maybe 1 Scout + 5 Podded Tacticals w/Heavy flamer/Melta+combi-melta.
Fast: lone Drop Pod on it's own (for Tiggy + Gravcents), + 2x 3 Bikers w/all grav
Add in Tiggy + Gravcents.
Throw the Sang Priest into the Gravcentstar and now they also gain FnP to boot!
Sure it's not exactly how Blood Angels should play, but that's still a helluva lot better situation than what the poor CSM's are in... At least with Blood Angels you (shockingly) see some actual Blood Angel marines show up!
Do both armies need help? Absolutely they do!
But overall, the problems Blood Angels face is simply that they're still pre-7.5ed Marines. I'd bet my hat that when they get their update, they'll get all the basic SM goodies such as grav cannons, squadroned vehicles w/bonuses, Bloodcurion on par with at least DA's Lion's Blade, (hopefully) the Dreadnought boost...
That's a lot better than what it's going to take to bring Chaos Marines back up to anything close to respectable.
This thread is about single codexes, so if you're gonna throw tiggy and a centstar in with. BA I'll throw in Belakor and an invisible chaos reaver titan for CSM. Which CODEX is the weakest is the threads title. Fragiosos are only good for template spamming hordes, scouts suck ass without a LSS to move them about (and BA don't get LSS not to mention BA scouts are still WS, BS 3) and their super combaty dreads have half as many attacks as any other marine dread. Lets not forget DC (arguably BAs best unit) is a fething joke if they don't get the charge.
Chaos has the Typhus+Plague Marine msu, nurgle bikers, hellturkeys, 3x oblits and shrouded filth mace ML3 nurgle DP build. Throw in a second. CAD (still CSM dex only) with a juggerlord with spawn entourage (or an unmarked ML3 sorc and another turkey), some cultists and another unit of oblits and there's no BA dex list that comes close. Hell, not even with formations.
Martel732 wrote: "nd allying in the likes of Tiggy + Gravcents alone can really pick up what's still a 50%+ 'Codex: Blood Angels' army. "
No, it really can't. Because the 50% could have been vanilla marines.
BA formations are largely garbage.
You can still get a decent BA army with;
HQ: Lv2 Libby + Sang Priest
Elites: 1-2 Fragiosos in Pods + obligatory DC unit
Troops: min Scouts for table control, or maybe 1 Scout + 5 Podded Tacticals w/Heavy flamer/Melta+combi-melta.
Fast: lone Drop Pod on it's own (for Tiggy + Gravcents), + 2x 3 Bikers w/all grav
Add in Tiggy + Gravcents.
Throw the Sang Priest into the Gravcentstar and now they also gain FnP to boot!
Sure it's not exactly how Blood Angels should play, but that's still a helluva lot better situation than what the poor CSM's are in... At least with Blood Angels you (shockingly) see some actual Blood Angel marines show up!
Do both armies need help? Absolutely they do!
But overall, the problems Blood Angels face is simply that they're still pre-7.5ed Marines. I'd bet my hat that when they get their update, they'll get all the basic SM goodies such as grav cannons, squadroned vehicles w/bonuses, Bloodcurion on par with at least DA's Lion's Blade, (hopefully) the Dreadnought boost...
That's a lot better than what it's going to take to bring Chaos Marines back up to anything close to respectable.
This thread is about single codexes, so if you're gonna throw tiggy and a centstar in with. BA I'll throw in Belakor and an invisible chaos reaver titan for CSM. Which CODEX is the weakest is the threads title. Fragiosos are only good for template spamming hordes, scouts suck ass without a LSS to move them about (and BA don't get LSS not to mention BA scouts are still WS, BS 3) and their super combaty dreads have half as many attacks as any other marine dread. Lets not forget DC (arguably BAs best unit) is a fething joke if they don't get the charge.
Chaos has the Typhus+Plague Marine msu, nurgle bikers, hellturkeys, 3x oblits and shrouded filth mace ML3 nurgle DP build. Throw in a second. CAD (still CSM dex only) with a juggerlord with spawn entourage (or an unmarked ML3 sorc and another turkey), some cultists and another unit of oblits and there's no BA dex list that comes close. Hell, not even with formations.
Typhus - 230pts
DP w/DoN, Black Mace, Wings, Armour, Lv3 - 340pts!!!
3x Oblits w/MoN - 228 pts
= 1748pts
If you can't make even a strait-up Codex: BA list that can clock that, then your codex isn't the problem.
Replacing the useless Typhus with a Nurgle Bike Lord build still runs 165pts.
An AoBF Jugger Lord is a whopping 170pts, for a model who's worse in every way when compared to a Thunderwolf Lord, and is forced to always offer/accept any Challenges. Plus another minimum 100pts for 2x10 Cultists + 96pts for 3 MoK Spawn. (which also means no challenge bot to prevent the Lord from going stupid)
Helturkies were nerfed to crap when 7th hit.
Nurgle Mace Princes are hugely overrated because they're still Daemon Princes, which are the game's worst MC. (seriously, if you can't deal with a T5/W4/3+/5++ model that costs 300+pts, then your problem isn't with your army...)
You badly overrate the capabilities of CSM's, and love to ignore the fact that BA's at least have all the basic Loyalist strengths. (ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Drop Pods, Grav, etc...)
Let's see your BA list that's going to clock that list. I'm curious as to what you think is good. Keep in mind that in my case, I can't mindlessly stack grav because I could end up against demons.
Orks, CSM and DE all sit around drinking squig beer, the blood of the innocent and ... well you probably don't want to know... down at the bottom discussing it.
Martel732 wrote: Let's see your BA list that's going to clock that list. I'm curious as to what you think is good. Keep in mind that in my case, I can't mindlessly stack grav because I could end up against demons.
Dante - 220pts
Techmarine - 50pts
5 Scouts - 55pts
5 Scouts - 55pts
Com Squad w/4x Meltagun, Jump packs - 165pts
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-Autocannons - 120 pts
Drop Pod w/Deathwind launcher - 50pts
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-Autocannons - 120 pts
Drop Pod w/Deathwind launcher - 50pts
3 Bikes w/2 Grav guns + Combi-Grav - 103 pts
3 Bikes w/2 Grav guns - 93 pts
Land Speeder w/Heavy Bolter + Asscan - 80pts
Sang Priest - 60 pts
5 Tacticals w/Heavy flamer - 80 pts
Drop Pod - 35 pts
5 Scouts - 55pts
8 Death Company w/2x Power fist, Jump packs - 234 pts
Fragioso w/Heavy flamer - 140 pts
Drop Pod - 35 pts
= 1750pts
Nurgle list has to try and deal with Death Company, which really, only the DP is capable of, and really doesn't want to since they're eat him alive with hidden power fists.
Dante + Meltaguard is a back-up melee threat, and can nuke Rhinos/Plaguemarines.
Scouts for board control, which is hilarious considering Chaos has no innate Infiltrate beyond 2 named IC's.
Grav eats everything bar Cultists in the CSM codex.
Fragioso puts out enough auto-hits & with decent enough strength that it's deadly to even 2+ save units. (Rending helps a lot!)
Autocannon Dreads are good for HP'ing Rhinos to death, and thanks to twin-linked, can annoy the Hellturkey. (the only really problematic model in the CSM list) Techmarine is there because he fills the otherwise 'meh' HQ slot the cheapest, and to bolster some Ruins that the Dreads can anchor themselves in.
The Drop Pods are merely there for board control. Dropping empty pods to break apart/delay the opponent is an amazing ability all Loyalists have. The Deathwind launchers are also just cheap enough that they're worthwhile for adding some extra damage to the mix. (really handy where Daemons are hugely popular)
Land Speeder is cheap annoyance, and is viable against an army that severely lacks anti-tank to begin with. Good RoF for either going after Rhinos, or else knocking down T5 flying DP's. (or just finishing off that last straggler or two.)
Basically, the BA's can out MSUCSM's by a mile, and also present too many targets that CSM's simply don't have enough shooting or melee capabilities to deal with. Just the cheapness alone of BA units in general as compared to their CSM counterparts gives BA's the leg-up.
Chaos Marines pay far too much, for far too little.
I feel like you completely ignored me and list tailored. I also think that list is not as good as you think it is. BA do get a lot better if you list tailor and you opponent doesn't. I'll admit that.
Martel732 wrote: I feel like you completely ignored me and list tailored. I also think that list is not as good as you think it is. BA do get a lot better if you list tailor and you opponent doesn't. I'll admit that.
No, it's not tailored. It's pretty much what our local BA player was using before shelving their army and going back to expand on their GK's. (hence why he was running twin-autocannon Dreads, which were really just 'temporarily borrowed' by the BA's!)
It was designed as a 'poor mans GSF', with as many cheap units as possible, and a couple of heavy lifters.
Initially it started out with more Tacticals, but the returns just weren't there... The Scouts at least gave Infiltrate, and were less than half the cost of the min Tacs + Pod. (he stopped using Rhinos/Razorbacks in 7th due to the HP issues and being taxed for the Over-charged engines)
Honestly, it did okay vs. other non-Tourney MEQ's, 'Nids, Tau (before their Taucurion & Stormsurge BS), Orks, DE and even some Eldar lists. It rocked the hell out of CSM's that didn't heavily ally.
It got stomped hard by anything hyper competitive obviously.
How is 15 melta guns not enough? I just did some quick calculations and the chance of a melta wounding a daemon prince (i.e. a MC) is 10 wounds in every 27 shots, that includes the DP's 5++. So in order to kill a DP you only need 13-14 melta shots. So well done heavily underpowered units of meltas managed to kill a 300pt model in one round of fire.
mrhappyface wrote: How is 15 melta guns not enough? I just did some quick calculations and the chance of a melta wounding a daemon prince (i.e. a MC) is 10 wounds in every 27 shots, that includes the DP's 5++. So in order to kill a DP you only need 13-14 melta shots. So well done heavily underpowered units of meltas managed to kill a 300pt model in one round of fire.
Many of them will never reach the target, and the ROF sucks.
If you don't think they will reach their target there is another solution for BA that CSM don't get: drop pods.
As for the rate of fire, yes it is only 1 shot but it is a S8 AP2 weapon that costs (I am just guessing because I don't own a BA codex) about 15pts. In the warhammer universe you exchange volume of fire for strength, the same as traiding expensive elite units for cheap cannon fodder.
Even with pods, you can't get enough within range. Your pods get in the way of each other and targets can be bubblewrapped, etc.
There's also reserve shenanigans that can completely make a drop scheme unless. This can be mitigated by buying empty pods, but BA certainly don't have the points to spare for this.
I don't see the trade off you describe for many other weapons like scatterlasers or grav. There are mathematical sweet spots in this game and melta is not in one of them. It's a bad MC solution.
mrhappyface wrote: If you don't think they will reach their target there is another solution for BA that CSM don't get: drop pods.
As for the rate of fire, yes it is only 1 shot but it is a S8 AP2 weapon that costs (I am just guessing because I don't own a BA codex) about 15pts. In the warhammer universe you exchange volume of fire for strength, the same as traiding expensive elite units for cheap cannon fodder.
BA's pay the same pts cost for a Meltagun that CSM's pay. The difference is that ours all come on much more expensive platforms, with 0 built-in special rules and our only delivery system being either Rhinos, or unsupportable Deep Strike.
@martel
Bubble tapping a DP is hard because it isn't an independent character so it can't join a unit and no one is going to spend 50pts on cultists so the DP has an intervening unit cover save that is equal to its invulnerable save.
I can't comment on your second point as I have never been able to use drop pods so I don't know their tactics.
As for your last point you are comparing a reasonably balanced weapon to two of the most OP weapons in the game. Just because some armies get OP weapons doesn't mean every army should.
mrhappyface wrote: @martel
Bubble tapping a DP is hard because it isn't an independent character so it can't join a unit and no one is going to spend 50pts on cultists so the DP has an intervening unit cover save that is equal to its invulnerable save.
I can't comment on your second point as I have never been able to use drop pods so I don't know their tactics.
As for your last point you are comparing a reasonably balanced weapon to two of the most OP weapons in the game. Just because some armies get OP weapons doesn't mean every army should.
I disagree. Because if everyone were OP then no one would be. Also, I'd argue the defensive capabilities of MCs are OP, requiring OP weaponry. The MCs can't even be engaged by scatterlasers effectively, which tells you something is seriously wrong!
@Experiment
What negative difference are you describing there? It costs CSM 137pts for a squad with 4 meltas, a combi-melta and no way of getting into melta range. I am presuming that BA don't pay much more for a 5 man melta squad AND you still have more options of ways to get them across the board.
mrhappyface wrote: @martel
Bubble tapping a DP is hard because it isn't an independent character so it can't join a unit and no one is going to spend 50pts on cultists so the DP has an intervening unit cover save that is equal to its invulnerable save.
I can't comment on your second point as I have never been able to use drop pods so I don't know their tactics.
As for your last point you are comparing a reasonably balanced weapon to two of the most OP weapons in the game. Just because some armies get OP weapons doesn't mean every army should.
I disagree. Because if everyone were OP then no one would be. Also, I'd argue the defensive capabilities of MCs are OP, requiring OP weaponry. The MCs can't even be engaged by scatterlasers effectively, which tells you something is seriously wrong!
mrhappyface wrote: @martel
Bubble tapping a DP is hard because it isn't an independent character so it can't join a unit and no one is going to spend 50pts on cultists so the DP has an intervening unit cover save that is equal to its invulnerable save.
I can't comment on your second point as I have never been able to use drop pods so I don't know their tactics.
As for your last point you are comparing a reasonably balanced weapon to two of the most OP weapons in the game. Just because some armies get OP weapons doesn't mean every army should.
I disagree. Because if everyone were OP then no one would be. Also, I'd argue the defensive capabilities of MCs are OP, requiring OP weaponry. The MCs can't even be engaged by scatterlasers effectively, which tells you something is seriously wrong!
Nothing about the regular MC rules actually gives MCs more durability. Its all the specific statline of specific MCs
Martel732 wrote: Let's see your BA list that's going to clock that list. I'm curious as to what you think is good. Keep in mind that in my case, I can't mindlessly stack grav because I could end up against demons.
Dante - 220pts
Techmarine - 50pts
5 Scouts - 55pts
5 Scouts - 55pts
Com Squad w/4x Meltagun, Jump packs - 165pts
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-Autocannons - 120 pts
Drop Pod w/Deathwind launcher - 50pts
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-Autocannons - 120 pts
Drop Pod w/Deathwind launcher - 50pts
3 Bikes w/2 Grav guns + Combi-Grav - 103 pts
3 Bikes w/2 Grav guns - 93 pts
Land Speeder w/Heavy Bolter + Asscan - 80pts
Sang Priest - 60 pts
5 Tacticals w/Heavy flamer - 80 pts
Drop Pod - 35 pts
5 Scouts - 55pts
8 Death Company w/2x Power fist, Jump packs - 234 pts
Fragioso w/Heavy flamer - 140 pts
Drop Pod - 35 pts
= 1750pts
Nurgle list has to try and deal with Death Company, which really, only the DP is capable of, and really doesn't want to since they're eat him alive with hidden power fists.
Dante + Meltaguard is a back-up melee threat, and can nuke Rhinos/Plaguemarines.
Scouts for board control, which is hilarious considering Chaos has no innate Infiltrate beyond 2 named IC's.
Grav eats everything bar Cultists in the CSM codex.
Fragioso puts out enough auto-hits & with decent enough strength that it's deadly to even 2+ save units. (Rending helps a lot!)
Autocannon Dreads are good for HP'ing Rhinos to death, and thanks to twin-linked, can annoy the Hellturkey. (the only really problematic model in the CSM list) Techmarine is there because he fills the otherwise 'meh' HQ slot the cheapest, and to bolster some Ruins that the Dreads can anchor themselves in.
The Drop Pods are merely there for board control. Dropping empty pods to break apart/delay the opponent is an amazing ability all Loyalists have. The Deathwind launchers are also just cheap enough that they're worthwhile for adding some extra damage to the mix. (really handy where Daemons are hugely popular)
Land Speeder is cheap annoyance, and is viable against an army that severely lacks anti-tank to begin with. Good RoF for either going after Rhinos, or else knocking down T5 flying DP's. (or just finishing off that last straggler or two.)
Basically, the BA's can out MSUCSM's by a mile, and also present too many targets that CSM's simply don't have enough shooting or melee capabilities to deal with. Just the cheapness alone of BA units in general as compared to their CSM counterparts gives BA's the leg-up.
Chaos Marines pay far too much, for far too little.
If we're playing maelstrom then BA have a pretty good shot. If were playing objectives or killpoints, BA are in trouble (despite the tailoring). The grav bikers and Dantes unit as the only real threats. After the DP destroys the dreads and the nurgle bikers tarpit the DC, everything else gets shot off the board as soon as it pods in while the grav bikers get gobbled up by the baleflamer. I can see the 6th turn starting with Dante and a handful of surviving BA standing around shaking their fists at the flyers they can't touch. Nice try. And just because the juggerlord can't go toe to toe with the meanest CC death star in the game you think he's underpowered? You really must want CSM to become the new eldar..
@martel
The power race of one thing trying to be more OP than the other lead to the situation that 40k is in where evryone has to take high strength weapons just in case your opponent brings super heavies and GMC, this increase in high strength in standard armies also lead to the demise of regular tanks which most armies just laugh at now.
As for scatterlasers they have a 4 in every 27 shots chance to wound. Therefore you only need 7 scatterlasers to kill a DP in one turn.
mrhappyface wrote: @Experiment
What negative difference are you describing there? It costs CSM 137pts for a squad with 4 meltas, a combi-melta and no way of getting into melta range. I am presuming that BA don't pay much more for a 5 man melta squad AND you still have more options of ways to get them across the board.
I know full well that CSM's options are all much worse - I'm a Chaos player!
Actually, 5 Havocs w/4x melta + combi-melta & Rhino is 5pts cheaper than a BA Command squad w/Jump packs & 4x meltas!
However, those Havocs give-up their far superior weapon option (Autocannon) and are competing for slots alongside Oblits, Vindicators & Maulerfiends, all of which are better to begin with.
Depends on the target. If its a vehicle that has to go ASAP then the havocs are the way to go. I honestly don't know what kind of dunce would go after an MC with meltaguns.
The command squad is competing for a slot with DC, Fragiosos, sternguard,VV and hammernators. Furiosos, hammernators, and fisted DC all have a better chance of dropping a MC.
I play both armies BTW and I'd MUCH rather give up a CSMHS slot than a BA Elite slot for a single purpose unit.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Depends on the target. If its a vehicle that has to go ASAP then the havocs are the way to go. I honestly don't know what kind of dunce would go after an MC with meltaguns.
The command squad is competing for a slot with DC, Fragiosos, sternguard,VV and hammernators. Furiosos, hammernators, and fisted DC all have a better chance of dropping a MC.
I play both armies BTW and I'd MUCH rather give up a CSMHS slot than a BA Elite slot for a single purpose unit.
BA's however can get a 4th Elites slot + the added perk of old school Furious Charge by simply taking their Baal Strike Force detachment, while also having enough cheap Troops options to viably bring 2 such detachments in a single list.
I'm pretty sure BA's can 'get by' with 8 potential Elites slots!
Outside of spamming Cultists however, (who don't do that much when it comes down to it), CSM's don't spam multiple CAD's well at all, since everything else is so badly over costed.
And when your local meta doesn't allow for FW, then we don't even have The Purge detachment to help us cheat a bit with either.
Martel732 wrote: Baal strike force is never worth giving up obj sec.
Wow, so you *only* have 6 Elites instead of 8 when running double CAD's. How tragic.
Don't pretend like CSM can't do dual CAD as well.
Again, I'm with ya Martel. Observe is absolutely 100 percent better than BSF. If our dex could reliably kill gak, BSF might be worth it. But as it stands, even if we go BSF and choose to fight for an objective, the hilarious part is that we'll most likely lose.
I'm inclined to say either BA or CSM, with leanings toward CSM. Beating them has been comparable to a walk in the park with the Crimson Slaughter supplement and I am pretty sure I have put forth more effort into blowing my nose than when I trounce them using Necrons.
Unit1126PLL wrote:Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.
No, they don't. What they lack is a delivery method for their excellent tool for dealing with MC/GMC.
Which is what?
4 WS4 S6AP1 attacks per 17 point model with Hatred.
Unit1126PLL wrote:It is worth noting that Sisters lose to the CSM dex because CSM have an AP3 template that IDs the sisters on a flying platform.
Sisters have no skyfire.
SoF still makes us better off against the Baledrake than Space Marines are.
I would trade SoF for access to 2+ armour on an HQ, some skyfire, and even just a formation or two.
And as for repentia....
...blegh. They are good if they hit their target, but no durability and no ability to assault out of transports means they just die in droves. They are literally less durable than guardsmen or orks, and are somehow expected to assault in this edition.
I wouldn't trade SoF for any of those things... but I play with Forge World, so that might colour my opinion since Repressors and Avengers are all we need anyway. Oh, there's a laundry list of other things it would be nice to have, but when it comes to making a viable list, a flier and the best non-assault transport in the game pretty much have us covered.
Then again, playing Sisters might have something to do with my low opinion of the value of 2+ saves.
As for Repentia, you just described my original point: We lack delivery methods. Repentia hit like the Doom Train when they can hit, and a LR with Frag Launchers or a SR is perfect for them. But we don't get that kind of option.
Furyou Miko wrote: I wouldn't trade SoF for any of those things... but I play with Forge World, so that might colour my opinion since Repressors and Avengers are all we need anyway. Oh, there's a laundry list of other things it would be nice to have, but when it comes to making a viable list, a flier and the best non-assault transport in the game pretty much have us covered.
Then again, playing Sisters might have something to do with my low opinion of the value of 2+ saves.
As for Repentia, you just described my original point: We lack delivery methods. Repentia hit like the Doom Train when they can hit, and a LR with Frag Launchers or a SR is perfect for them. But we don't get that kind of option.
Hence: we lack delivery methods.
I actually play with Forge World too, but to take a page from the Chaos players ITT: "It isn't in the codex so we can't use it."
Without a flier or Repressors, sisters are terribad.
It amazes me that the race that uses force field technology more than almost any other has no way of getting a melee invuln save.
I really think a lot of the Ork codex weakness can be mitigated by someone really well practiced with that army. A friend of mine is just getting back into the tournament circuit with them and does fairly well. He won a battle mat in the LVO and just placed fourth, I believe, in a team tournament.
It amazes me that the race that uses force field technology more than almost any other has no way of getting a melee invuln save.
I really think a lot of the Ork codex weakness can be mitigated by someone really well practiced with that army. A friend of mine is just getting back into the tournament circuit with them and does fairly well. He won a battle mat in the LVO and just placed fourth, I believe, in a team tournament.
Please don't overthink this and believe I am attacking you, I honestly don't know what you are saying here.
Are you saying, The Ork codex is fine and L2P?
or
are you saying the Ork codex would be best served by someone with a lot of experience in the actual army being involved in the next codex which should come out sometime in the 2020s going by current Ork Codex releases.
Atm, this is how I personally see it. The Imperial Guard, which I play, isn't a bad Army but right now they are struggling as they are in need of a major update. They can still be competitive however they need a lot of point reductions for most of their units and tanks, and they need to have their formations updated to be on par with current armies. Also, Forgeworld needs to stop being lazy and update the Death Korps of Krieg and Elysians as well. One if the biggest issue with the Imperial Guard is that there are numerous Army lists and formations with different point values and rules comma and they all need to be updated to where they are all on the same page.
Other then that, would have to say CSM, Orks, and DE are the ones struggling the most besides the IG. Sisters of Battle are the weakest as the are the Forgotten Army atmlol.
Ironwolf45 wrote: Atm, this is how I personally see it. The Imperial Guard, which I play, isn't a bad Army but right now they are struggling as they are in need of a major update. They can still be competitive however they need a lot of point reductions for most of their units and tanks, and they need to have their formations updated to be on par with current armies. Also, Forgeworld needs to stop being lazy and update the Death Korps of Krieg and Elysians as well. One if the biggest issue with the Imperial Guard is that there are numerous Army lists and formations with different point values and rules comma and they all need to be updated to where they are all on the same page.
Other then that, would have to say CSM, Orks, and DE are the ones struggling the most besides the IG. Sisters of Battle are the weakest as the are the Forgotten Army atmlol.
Sisters are in no way a 'weak' army... Sure their options are among the fewest in the game, but their power list(s) are definitely around the middle of what are considered the 'mid tier' armies. (ie: Wolves, Ad Mech/Skittari, BA's w/allies, GK's, DE/Covens w/Eldar allies, Flyrant spam 'Nids, etc...)
Sisters beat the living snot out of both Orks & CSM's with relative ease thanks to all those templates + meltas/Exorcists.
Yeah it's a common misconception that sisters are a weak army. Admittedly one would think that because they are rarely seen on the table, and rarely get updates.
But in practice when you take marines, drop their point costs by removing several irrelevant melee stats like WS S and I, while also getting rid of atsknf so they don't obnoxiously block the rest of your army's shooting after getting assaulted, have them focus on specialized anti infantry and anti vehicle weapons, and give them cool shenanigans like being able to ignore cover or rend at key times...turns out they're pretty good!
If sisters had affordable models, I'd absolutely run BA/sisters pod spam for competitive lists. Dropping in 4 rending heavy flamers from one unit or 4 ignore cover meltas all for roughly the price of a marine tac squad in a pod with special + combi is super efficient.
It amazes me that the race that uses force field technology more than almost any other has no way of getting a melee invuln save.
I really think a lot of the Ork codex weakness can be mitigated by someone really well practiced with that army. A friend of mine is just getting back into the tournament circuit with them and does fairly well. He won a battle mat in the LVO and just placed fourth, I believe, in a team tournament.
Please don't overthink this and believe I am attacking you, I honestly don't know what you are saying here.
Are you saying, The Ork codex is fine and L2P?
or
are you saying the Ork codex would be best served by someone with a lot of experience in the actual army being involved in the next codex which should come out sometime in the 2020s going by current Ork Codex releases.
Eh, I think Orks have a couple strong builds and can really surprise someone who underestimates them. But! I think overall the codex is crap, a lot of the upgrades are just slapped on (look at Cybork Body on Mad Dok.....why?!?!?) and overall they could use some buffs, as the only really strong Ork players run either FW or all bike armies.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I actually play with Forge World too, but to take a page from the Chaos players ITT: "It isn't in the codex so we can't use it."
Without a flier or Repressors, sisters are terribad.
I've seen some very effective FWF lists. They just use Immolators instead of Repressors and either ignore fliers or take an ADL with a canoness on it.
Sisters in Immolators are expensive Marines in Razorbacks since Marines can get free razors now.
And to take a page from Chaos players ITT about the ADL: "It isn't in the codex so we can't use it." I know this is an absurd rule, but it seems to be the standard we are using.
Eh, I think Orks have a couple strong builds and can really surprise someone who underestimates them. But! I think overall the codex is crap, a lot of the upgrades are just slapped on (look at Cybork Body on Mad Dok.....why?!?!?) and overall they could use some buffs, as the only really strong Ork players run either FW or all bike armies.
There are a few strong ork builds as you said, but they are Forge World builds not Codex Ork of hell even the Supplement builds.
I heard from a lot of people that they thought the new Ghaz Death Star inside the Orkurion was going to be OP cheese and would win a lot....but really no. Nothing in the codex or supplement is worth taking in any kind of tournament, lots of options for fun friendly games but nothing that is really competitive.
Even the Green tide wasn't really competitive, it was mostly just a scare tactic. If your attacked it from two different sides the green tide would spend the rest of the game piling in and your opponent would just zip around grabbing objectives and doing whatever he wanted to the remainder of your army (which wasn't very big because you had to invest a minimum of 650ish points into the green tide, or optimize it out at around 3 times that.)
Sisters in Immolators are expensive Marines in Razorbacks since Marines can get free razors now.
And to take a page from Chaos players ITT about the ADL: "It isn't in the codex so we can't use it." I know this is an absurd rule, but it seems to be the standard we are using.
Marines aren't terribad either :p
The opinions of Chaos players are to be taken with salt - they're a good example of what we could be, if we didn't have faith in our army and the Emperor.
morfydd wrote: Cybork on Mad Dok ..thats a leftover from every previous version where cybork=5+Invulnerable and having a DOK or Pain Boy attached = an FNP
True but a 5++ was factored into a lot of models cost in the previous codex. Even the ability to attain a 5++ was factored into the cost, and instead of adjusting the cost of models with that 5++ or access to it to adjust to a 6+ FNP they did nothing.
Mad dok in essence is paying for a 5++ that he doesn't get.
IMO, the three horde armies (Orks, IG, and Tyranids) all suffer from the same thing: lack of an ability to replenish their troops. A horde army should be all about drowning the enemy in bodies (we have more soldiers than you have bullets!). Rules like the Tyranid Endless Swarm formation (if I remember the name correctly) would go a long way toward making them more competitive. There would still be other issues, such as an inability for the Tyranids to get into melee, but imagine if an IG blob army could "Call for Reinforcements!" once per turn and restore 2d6 models to infantry squads or something similar.
I'd say chaos marines are in a difficult spot but can do ok in the hands if someone who knows how to play the army. In my experiance alot of people try to play them like a shooting army or like a loyalist army yet that is not how they work
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: I'd say chaos marines are in a difficult spot but can do ok in the hands if someone who knows how to play the army. In my experiance alot of people try to play them like a shooting army or like a loyalist army yet that is not how they work
CSM's are an army that works best by simply bringing Daemons, Khornekin, and/or IA:13 in their place.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: I'd say chaos marines are in a difficult spot but can do ok in the hands if someone who knows how to play the army. In my experiance alot of people try to play them like a shooting army or like a loyalist army yet that is not how they work
CSM's are an army that works best by simply bringing Daemons, Khornekin, and/or IA:13 in their place.
Really my experiances with the army would beg to differ
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: I'd say chaos marines are in a difficult spot but can do ok in the hands if someone who knows how to play the army. In my experiance alot of people try to play them like a shooting army or like a loyalist army yet that is not how they work
CSM's are an army that works best by simply bringing Daemons, Khornekin, and/or IA:13 in their place.
Really my experiances with the army would beg to differ
Anecdotes are not susbabtial evidence in of themselves.
the_scotsman wrote: Every army I own is the weakest army, every army that beats me is the most overpowered. Every player I beat is a terrible scrub who needs to L2P.
Have we summed up the thread yet?
No, what I have gathered is that there are 2-3 codices that are considered weak by almost everyone. Everyone else is kinda meh. and then there are some super powers.
Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, Dark Angels, Tau, Daemons can play on their own and roflstomp their way to the top tables in any tournament.
Space Wolves are still unknown for the most part just how well they've made out with their CotW expansion changes, though Wulfen are freaking insane!
Khornekin, Ad Mech/Skittari & Sisters do well enough, but really require allies and/or get shoehorned easily into set builds to hang out with the big boys.
Grey Knights, Guard, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels have a couple good formation(s), but absolutely require allied help to compete. However, all of them have stellar ally pools to draw from.
Orks, Tyranids are entirely shoehorned into a cookie-cutter build to compete.
Chaos Marines now only exist as Sorcerers, min Cultist 'tax', and occasionally some Nurgle Oblits/Bikers/Spawn, min/maxed Plaguemarines & Helturkey.
Mostly, you can actually remove the title "Chaos Space Marines" from the codex cover, and replace it instead with "IA:13 and/or Daemons with a few Sorcerers & sometimes friends".
What about harlies, knights and the good ol' inquisition?
Trying not to be biased here because the switch from the old to new ork codex was more brutal than kicking a grot with a steel toe boot, so I think its gotta be CSM. My friend plays CSM and while he has clearly better stats/weapons/wargear/everything his gak is so expensive point-wise that he gets like 5 terminators to my 60 slugga boys. And then I just win by sheer number of dice rolls.
Anyone else really really really hate that Big Meks have to replace their gun to get a KFF? And they can't have burnas? And the KFF isn't against melee as well? My Big Mek I modeled with a custom burna and KFF so I'm just really salty
Don Savik wrote: Trying not to be biased here because the switch from the old to new ork codex was more brutal than kicking a grot with a steel toe boot, so I think its gotta be CSM. My friend plays CSM and while he has clearly better stats/weapons/wargear/everything his gak is so expensive point-wise that he gets like 5 terminators to my 60 slugga boys. And then I just win by sheer number of dice rolls.
Anyone else really really really hate that Big Meks have to replace their gun to get a KFF? And they can't have burnas? And the KFF isn't against melee as well? My Big Mek I modeled with a custom burna and KFF so I'm just really salty
I'm still irritated that the regular meks can't take big shootas anymore. Now my 3 big shoota meks (blasted loota box with only 4 lootas ) have been lobotomized by the Inquisition to be count as jokero.
Don Savik wrote: Trying not to be biased here because the switch from the old to new ork codex was more brutal than kicking a grot with a steel toe boot, so I think its gotta be CSM. My friend plays CSM and while he has clearly better stats/weapons/wargear/everything his gak is so expensive point-wise that he gets like 5 terminators to my 60 slugga boys. And then I just win by sheer number of dice rolls.
Anyone else really really really hate that Big Meks have to replace their gun to get a KFF? And they can't have burnas? And the KFF isn't against melee as well? My Big Mek I modeled with a custom burna and KFF so I'm just really salty
I'm still irritated that the regular meks can't take big shootas anymore. Now my 3 big shoota meks (blasted loota box with only 4 lootas ) have been lobotomized by the Inquisition to be count as jokero.
Yeah I never did figure out why they sell Lootas/burnas in sets of 5 but only include 4 weapons for you to utilize. My Big mek is going to keep his GD Big Shoota and he is going to count as another Loota for all intents and purposes. Granted at this point I hardly utilize Lootas because they tend to die whenever any other army farts in their general direction. And I never field Burnas for the same reason...well that and the change to flamer rules means I can't wipe out a unit with flamers anymore unless I am lucky enough to get that close to them...and generally at that point I would be better off saving the flamers for CC anyway
Don Savik wrote: Trying not to be biased here because the switch from the old to new ork codex was more brutal than kicking a grot with a steel toe boot, so I think its gotta be CSM. My friend plays CSM and while he has clearly better stats/weapons/wargear/everything his gak is so expensive point-wise that he gets like 5 terminators to my 60 slugga boys. And then I just win by sheer number of dice rolls.
Anyone else really really really hate that Big Meks have to replace their gun to get a KFF? And they can't have burnas? And the KFF isn't against melee as well? My Big Mek I modeled with a custom burna and KFF so I'm just really salty
I'm still irritated that the regular meks can't take big shootas anymore. Now my 3 big shoota meks (blasted loota box with only 4 lootas ) have been lobotomized by the Inquisition to be count as jokero.
Yeah I never did figure out why they sell Lootas/burnas in sets of 5 but only include 4 weapons for you to utilize. My Big mek is going to keep his GD Big Shoota and he is going to count as another Loota for all intents and purposes. Granted at this point I hardly utilize Lootas because they tend to die whenever any other army farts in their general direction. And I never field Burnas for the same reason...well that and the change to flamer rules means I can't wipe out a unit with flamers anymore unless I am lucky enough to get that close to them...and generally at that point I would be better off saving the flamers for CC anyway
magnetize or buy a single boyz box, you get a 5th flamer, and can use the big shoota for a proxy of a 5th deffgun.
the meks come in handy if you elect to do a stompa filled with big mek, 3 meks, and 4 lootas grouped with 3 meks. inside (4 firing points in a stompa)
) have been lobotomized by the Inquisition to be count as jokero.
