Which current Codex is weakest

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**Martel732**

mrhappyface wrote:
How is 15 melta guns not enough? I just did some quick calculations and the chance of a melta wounding a daemon prince (i.e. a MC) is 10 wounds in every 27 shots, that includes the DP's 5++. So in order to kill a DP you only need 13-14 melta shots. So well done heavily underpowered units of meltas managed to kill a 300pt model in one round of fire.

Many of them will never reach the target, and the ROF sucks.

**mrhappyface**

If you don't think they will reach their target there is another solution for BA that CSM don't get: drop pods.
As for the rate of fire, yes it is only 1 shot but it is a S8 AP2 weapon that costs (I am just guessing because I don't own a BA codex) about 15pts. In the warhammer universe you exchange volume of fire for strength, the same as traiding expensive elite units for cheap cannon fodder.

**Martel732**

Even with pods, you can't get enough within range. Your pods get in the way of each other and targets can be bubblewrapped, etc.

There's also reserve shenanigans that can completely make a drop scheme unless. This can be mitigated by buying empty pods, but BA certainly don't have the points to spare for this.

I don't see the trade off you describe for many other weapons like scatterlasers or grav. There are mathematical sweet spots in this game and melta is not in one of them. It's a bad MC solution.

**Experiment 626**

mrhappyface wrote:
If you don't think they will reach their target there is another solution for BA that CSM don't get: drop pods.
As for the rate of fire, yes it is only 1 shot but it is a S8 AP2 weapon that costs (I am just guessing because I don't own a BA codex) about 15pts. In the warhammer universe you exchange volume of fire for strength, the same as traiding expensive elite units for cheap cannon fodder.

BA's pay the same pts cost for a Meltagun that CSM's pay. The difference is that ours all come on much more expensive platforms, with 0 built-in special rules and our only delivery system being either Rhinos, or unsupportable Deep Strike.

**mrhappyface**

@martel
Bubble tapping a DP is hard because it isn't an independent character so it can't join a unit and no one is going to spend 50pts on cultists so the DP has an intervening unit cover save that is equal to its invulnerable save.

I can't comment on your second point as I have never been able to use drop pods so I don't know their tactics.

As for your last point you are comparing a reasonably balanced weapon to two of the most OP weapons in the game. Just because some armies get OP weapons doesn't mean every army should.

**Martel732**

mrhappyface wrote:
@martel
Bubble tapping a DP is hard because it isn't an independent character so it can't join a unit and no one is going to spend 50pts on cultists so the DP has an intervening unit cover save that is equal to its invulnerable save.

I can't comment on your second point as I have never been able to use drop pods so I don't know their tactics.

As for your last point you are comparing a reasonably balanced weapon to two of the most OP weapons in the game. Just because some armies get OP weapons doesn't mean every army should.

I disagree. Because if everyone were OP then no one would be. Also, I'd argue the defensive capabilities of MCs are OP, requiring OP weaponry. The MCs can't even be engaged by scatterlasers effectively, which tells you something is seriously wrong!

**mrhappyface**

@Experiment
What negative difference are you describing there? It costs CSM 137pts for a squad with 4 meltas, a combi-melta and no way of getting into melta range. I am presuming that BA don't pay much more for a 5 man melta squad AND you still have more options of ways to get them across the board.

**Experiment 626**

Martel732 wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
@martel
Bubble tapping a DP is hard because it isn't an independent character so it can't join a unit and no one is going to spend 50pts on cultists so the DP has an intervening unit cover save that is equal to its invulnerable save.

I can't comment on your second point as I have never been able to use drop pods so I don't know their tactics.

As for your last point you are comparing a reasonably balanced weapon to two of the most OP weapons in the game. Just because some armies get OP weapons doesn't mean every army should.

I disagree. Because if everyone were OP then no one would be. Also, I'd argue the defensive capabilities of MCs are OP, requiring OP weaponry. The MCs can't even be engaged by scatterlasers effectively, which tells you something is seriously wrong!

I hear Guide is a thing...

**CrownAxe**

Martel732 wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
@martel
Bubble tapping a DP is hard because it isn't an independent character so it can't join a unit and no one is going to spend 50pts on cultists so the DP has an intervening unit cover save that is equal to its invulnerable save.

I can't comment on your second point as I have never been able to use drop pods so I don't know their tactics.

As for your last point you are comparing a reasonably balanced weapon to two of the most OP weapons in the game. Just because some armies get OP weapons doesn't mean every army should.

I disagree. Because if everyone were OP then no one would be. Also, I'd argue the defensive capabilities of MCs are OP, requiring OP weaponry. The MCs can't even be engaged by scatterlasers effectively, which tells you something is seriously wrong!

Nothing about the regular MC rules actually gives MCs more durability. Its all the specific statline of specific MCs

**Dantes_Baals**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Let's see your BA list that's going to clock that list. I'm curious as to what you think is good. Keep in mind that in my case, I can't mindlessly stack grav because I could end up against demons.

Dante - 220pts

Techmarine - 50pts

5 Scouts - 55pts

5 Scouts - 55pts

Com Squad w/4x Meltagun, Jump packs - 165pts

Dreadnought w/2x Twin-Autocannons - 120 pts
Drop Pod w/Deathwind launcher - 50pts

Dreadnought w/2x Twin-Autocannons - 120 pts
Drop Pod w/Deathwind launcher - 50pts

3 Bikes w/2 Grav guns + Combi-Grav - 103 pts

3 Bikes w/2 Grav guns - 93 pts

Land Speeder w/Heavy Bolter + Asscan - 80pts

Sang Priest - 60 pts

5 Tacticals w/Heavy flamer - 80 pts
Drop Pod - 35 pts

5 Scouts - 55pts

8 Death Company w/2x Power fist, Jump packs - 234 pts

Fragioso w/Heavy flamer - 140 pts
Drop Pod - 35 pts
= 1750pts

Nurgle list has to try and deal with Death Company, which really, only the DP is capable of, and really doesn't want to since they're eat him alive with hidden power fists.
Dante + Meltaguard is a back-up melee threat, and can nuke Rhinos/Plaguemarines.

Scouts for board control, which is hilarious considering Chaos has no innate Infiltrate beyond 2 named IC's.

Grav eats everything bar Cultists in the CSM codex.
Fragioso puts out enough auto-hits & with decent enough strength that it's deadly to even 2+ save units. (Rending helps a lot!)

Autocannon Dreads are good for HP'ing Rhinos to death, and thanks to twin-linked, can annoy the Hellturkey. (the only really problematic model in the CSM list) Techmarine is there because he fills the otherwise 'meh' HQ slot the cheapest, and to bolster some Ruins that the Dreads can anchor themselves in.
The Drop Pods are merely there for board control. Dropping empty pods to break apart/delay the opponent is an amazing ability all Loyalists have. The Deathwind launchers are also just cheap enough that they're worthwhile for adding some extra damage to the mix. (really handy where Daemons are hugely popular)

Land Speeder is cheap annoyance, and is viable against an army that severely lacks anti-tank to begin with. Good RoF for either going after Rhinos, or else knocking down T5 flying DP's. (or just finishing off that last straggler or two.)

Basically, the BA's can out MSU CSM's by a mile, and also present too many targets that CSM's simply don't have enough shooting or melee capabilities to deal with. Just the cheapness alone of BA units in general as compared to their CSM counterparts gives BA's the leg-up.

Chaos Marines pay far too much, for far too little.

If we're playing maelstrom then BA have a pretty good shot. If were playing objectives or killpoints, BA are in trouble (despite the tailoring). The grav bikers and Dantes unit as the only real threats. After the DP destroys the dreads and the nurgle bikers tarpit the DC, everything else gets shot off the board as soon as it pods in while the grav bikers get gobbled up by the baleflamer. I can see the 6th turn starting with Dante and a handful of surviving BA standing around shaking their fists at the flyers they can't touch. Nice try. And just because the juggerlord can't go toe to toe with the meanest CC death star in the game you think he's underpowered? You really must want CSM to become the new eldar..

**mrhappyface**

@martel
The power race of one thing trying to be more OP than the other lead to the situation that 40k is in where evryone has to take high strength weapons just in case your opponent brings super heavies and GMC, this increase in high strength in standard armies also lead to the demise of regular tanks which most armies just laugh at now.

As for scatterlasers they have a 4 in every 27 shots chance to wound. Therefore you only need 7 scatterlasers to kill a DP in one turn.

**Experiment 626**

mrhappyface wrote:
@Experiment
What negative difference are you describing there? It costs CSM 137pts for a squad with 4 meltas, a combi-melta and no way of getting into melta range. I am presuming that BA don't pay much more for a 5 man melta squad AND you still have more options of ways to get them across the board.

I know full well that CSM's options are all much worse - I'm a Chaos player!

Actually, 5 Havocs w/4x melta + combi-melta & Rhino is 5pts cheaper than a BA Command squad w/Jump packs & 4x meltas!
However, those Havocs give-up their far superior weapon option (Autocannon) and are competing for slots alongside Oblits, Vindicators & Maulerfiends, all of which are better to begin with.

**Dantes_Baals**

Depends on the target. If its a vehicle that has to go ASAP then the havocs are the way to go. I honestly don't know what kind of dunce would go after an MC with meltaguns.

The command squad is competing for a slot with DC, Fragiosos, sternguard,VV and hammernators. Furiosos, hammernators, and fisted DC all have a better chance of dropping a MC.

I play both armies BTW and I'd MUCH rather give up a CSM HS slot than a BA Elite slot for a single purpose unit.

**Experiment 626**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Depends on the target. If its a vehicle that has to go ASAP then the havocs are the way to go. I honestly don't know what kind of dunce would go after an MC with meltaguns.

The command squad is competing for a slot with DC, Fragiosos, sternguard,VV and hammernators. Furiosos, hammernators, and fisted DC all have a better chance of dropping a MC.

I play both armies BTW and I'd MUCH rather give up a CSM HS slot than a BA Elite slot for a single purpose unit.

BA's however can get a 4th Elites slot + the added perk of old school Furious Charge by simply taking their Baal Strike Force detachment, while also having enough cheap Troops options to viably bring 2 such detachments in a single list.
I'm pretty sure BA's can 'get by' with 8 potential Elites slots!

Outside of spamming Cultists however, (who don't do that much when it comes down to it), CSM's don't spam multiple CAD's well at all, since everything else is so badly over costed.
And when your local meta doesn't allow for FW, then we don't even have The Purge detachment to help us cheat a bit with either.

**Martel732**

Baal strike force is never worth giving up obj sec.

**Experiment 626**

Martel732 wrote:
Baal strike force is never worth giving up obj sec.

Wow, so you *only* have 6 Elites instead of 8 when running double CAD's. How tragic.

**pm713**

I feel like other people value Objective Secured way more than I do.

**Martel732**

It's really huge when you can just move something within 3" of an objective and score it without beating the enemy unit there.

**pm713**

Most of my games end up avoiding that issue by killing things nearby first or having a fast unit like bikes. Hence obj sec rarely comes into play.

**Martel732**

BA can't kill those things nearby. That's part of their problem .

**svengarr**

The weakest codex is easily elder and tau. there codex is designed to make it hard to find players to play against. I feel pretty bad for them.

**Dantes_Baals**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Baal strike force is never worth giving up obj sec.

Wow, so you *only* have 6 Elites instead of 8 when running double CAD's. How tragic.

Don't pretend like CSM can't do dual CAD as well.

Again, I'm with ya Martel. Observe is absolutely 100 percent better than BSF. If our dex could reliably kill gak, BSF might be worth it. But as it stands, even if we go BSF and choose to fight for an objective, the hilarious part is that we'll most likely lose.

**King Pariah**

I'm inclined to say either BA or CSM, with leanings toward CSM. Beating them has been comparable to a walk in the park with the Crimson Slaughter supplement and I am pretty sure I have put forth more effort into blowing my nose than when I trounce them using Necrons.

**bomtek80**

Inquisitors have a pretty bad stand alone codex as well.

**Unit1126PLL**

It is worth noting that Sisters lose to the CSM dex because CSM have an AP3 template that IDs the sisters on a flying platform.

Sisters have no skyfire.

**Furyou Miko**

Martel732 wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.

No, they don't. What they lack is a delivery method for their excellent tool for dealing with MC/GMC.

Which is what?

4 WS4 S6AP1 attacks per 17 point model with Hatred.

Unit1126PLL wrote:It is worth noting that Sisters lose to the CSM dex because CSM have an AP3 template that IDs the sisters on a flying platform.

Sisters have no skyfire.

SoF still makes us better off against the Baledrake than Space Marines are.

**Unit1126PLL**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:Sororitas, because they lack tools to deal with MC/GMC.

No, they don't. What they lack is a delivery method for their excellent tool for dealing with MC/GMC.

Which is what?

4 WS4 S6AP1 attacks per 17 point model with Hatred.

Unit1126PLL wrote:It is worth noting that Sisters lose to the CSM dex because CSM have an AP3 template that IDs the sisters on a flying platform.

Sisters have no skyfire.

SoF still makes us better off against the Baledrake than Space Marines are.

I would trade SoF for access to 2+ armour on an HQ, some skyfire, and even just a formation or two.

And as for repentia....

...blegh. They are good if they hit their target, but no durability and no ability to assault out of transports means they just die in droves. They are literally less durable than guardsmen or orks, and are somehow expected to assault in this edition.

**Furyou Miko**

I wouldn't trade SoF for any of those things... but I play with Forge World, so that might colour my opinion since Repressors and Avengers are all we need anyway. Oh, there's a laundry list of other things it would be nice to have, but when it comes to making a viable list, a flier and the best non-assault transport in the game pretty much have us covered.

Then again, playing Sisters might have something to do with my low opinion of the value of 2+ saves.

As for Repentia, you just described my original point: We lack delivery methods. Repentia hit like the Doom Train when they can hit, and a LR with Frag Launchers or a SR is perfect for them. But we don't get that kind of option.

Hence: we lack delivery methods.

**Unit1126PLL**

Furyou Miko wrote:
I wouldn't trade SoF for any of those things... but I play with Forge World, so that might colour my opinion since Repressors and Avengers are all we need anyway. Oh, there's a laundry list of other things it would be nice to have, but when it comes to making a viable list, a flier and the best non-assault transport in the game pretty much have us covered.

Then again, playing Sisters might have something to do with my low opinion of the value of 2+ saves.

As for Repentia, you just described my original point: We lack delivery methods. Repentia hit like the Doom Train when they can hit, and a LR with Frag Launchers or a SR is perfect for them. But we don't get that kind of option.

Hence: we lack delivery methods.

I actually play with Forge World too, but to take a page from the Chaos players ITT: "It isn't in the codex so we can't use it."

Without a flier or Repressors, sisters are terribad.

**Munga**

I've had my helbrute glanced to death in assault by tac marines :(