The last Tau Codex was definitely a "quick fix" codex that simply added a few units and changed a couple options. However I believe that it made the army, as a whole, significantly more diverse and more enjoyable.

What armies out there could also do with the "quick fix" treatment, and which ones simply need a complete overhaul?

As for the complete overhauls, I'd say Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Marines are the prime candidates. Technically I'd put Tyranids here too, but really, if you just reprint their codex to include all the "extras" like the drop pod, new creatures, new Zoanthrope options, etc. this would almost make them playable.




For codex's that I'd like to see updated soon-ish with the "quick fix" method (mostly as gap-fillers in the release schedule) I'd like to see Grey Knights and Blood Angels, or indeed any marine army that had yet to have the "dreadnought update". As a note with Grey Knights, would anyone else like to see all Grey Knights characters have access to the special weapons? Having an extra psycannon or psylancer in a squad might be enough to boost them in power (plus this was a classic option in the original Daemon Hunters Codex).

orks, imperial guard, tyranids, sisters, inquisition, MT's: total overhaul needed

DE, blood angels, imperial knights: quick fix is viable

All armies can be fixed by a quick fix, by just rebalancing the points in an errata and only changing a few rules.

Some armies legitimately could be fixed pretty quickly. E.g., the Eldar army is basically balanced, except for a few outliers. Change the 295 points cost for the wraithknight to 400 points, change eldar bikes to 1 heavy weapon in 3, revise warp spiders slightly, and you've got a basically balanced army.

Some armies need much more substantial revisions. Orks, Tyrranids and Chaos Space Marines come to mind.

Some armies need to be completely rebuilt from the conceptual ground up. Tau comes to mind. The tau are hated for good reason.

What it comes down to, I think, is the following:

Some codices are basically balanced (both internally and externally) except for a few outliers. Minor revisions are needed for those.

Some codices have basically been left in the dust and no longer have rules comparable to other, similar units in other codices. There is no sense in which Chaos Space Marines have capabilities comparable to vanilla space marines for their points cost. Am I really to believe that ATSKNF and chapter tactics are only worth 1 point? Major revisions are needed.

Some codices are just so completely ill-fitted for non-apocalypse games that they need to be completely redone. They need to start from square 1 and start over. Keep the models; completely redo the rules.

Some armies legitimately could be fixed pretty quickly. E.g., the Eldar army is basically balanced, except for a few outliers. Change the 295 points cost for the wraithknight to 400 points, change scatter bikes to 1 heavy weapon in 3 and you've got a basically balanced army.

Nope. The Eldar is a Deli filled with Cheese. Very few units are balanced to the rest of the game. Wraith Knights, Scatter Bikers (even without the Scatter laser), Warp Spiders, Wraith Guard, Special Characters, there is more cheese in that codex then in a grilled cheese sandwich.

SemperMortis wrote:Nope. The Eldar is a Deli filled with Cheese. Very few units are balanced to the rest of the game. Wraith Knights, Scatter Bikers (even without the Scatter laser), Warp Spiders, Wraith Guard, Special Characters, there is more cheese in that codex then in a grilled cheese sandwich.

I keep hearing this claim about wraithguard. I just don't see it. I'll start a different thread about it.

At any rate, if you want another example, I could point to Necrons.

A few minor revisions could be made, but the codex is mostly good as is.

The inballance is just the result of mismatching point efficiencies due to special rules and free stuff stacking in the other armies. Most special rules aren't bad as long as they pay for it. If they don't then we just have to reduce the point cost of the other armies, to rebalance it all out

Lets take the ork army for example. Here is my quick fix. ( note it isn't play tested or anything this is just that a quickly written down quick fix)

Ork Equipment:
Powerklaw 10 pts
Killsaw 15 pts
Warbike: 10 pts
Mega armour: 25 Pts

HQs
Painboy 30pts
Big mek 20 pts
Weirdboy 30 points ( + add a formation of weirdboyz)

Elites:
Burna boyz 10 pts
Kommando's 7 pts
Mega nobz 30 pts
Nobz 12 points

Troops:
Boyz 3 points Shoota upgrade 2 pts
Grots 2 points Runtherd 4 points

fast
deffkopta 18pts unit size 1-20
trucks 20 pts
warbuggies 15 pts.
Storm boyz 8 points

Battle wagon 50 points
Deff dread 40 points
Kanz 25 points
Nauts 150 points
Looted wagon 25 pts (and dedicated transport)
Flash gits 12 points
Stompa 350 points

This is a Quick fix that could fit on one page of a whte dwarf and it would make orks able to play with the big boyz even without having aces to all the powerful rules.

I think most, if not all, could be fixed with a quick fix. Tyranids and CSM being the hardest.

I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.

The "quick fix" is to fix everything else that's not BA.

Grav-Cannon for BA would be fine.

And MC not having busted rules to begin with.

BA are easy eneugh to fix, give em access to grav weapons. bring any outlier stats in line with codex Space Marines.


Chaos I think needs a complete re-work, points cost adjustments, tweeks to current units (it occurs to me given the fluff, we should be able to aquire infiltrate on cultists)
as well as some new units that could synergize nicely with that chaos has. (there's a 20 man open topped rhino that was shown to be in use in the heresy, given chaos that and chaos would suddenly be a LOT better)

BrianDavion wrote:
BA are easy eneugh to fix, give em access to grav weapons. bring any outlier stats in line with codex Space Marines.


Chaos I think needs a complete re-work, points cost adjustments, tweeks to current units (it occurs to me given the fluff, we should be able to aquire infiltrate on cultists)
as well as some new units that could synergize nicely with that chaos has. (there's a 20 man open topped rhino that was shown to be in use in the heresy, given chaos that and chaos would suddenly be a LOT better)

They would still suck, though. That's the problem. BA have literally none of the units and/or formations that make SM and SW good.

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
BA are easy eneugh to fix, give em access to grav weapons. bring any outlier stats in line with codex Space Marines.


Chaos I think needs a complete re-work, points cost adjustments, tweeks to current units (it occurs to me given the fluff, we should be able to aquire infiltrate on cultists)
as well as some new units that could synergize nicely with that chaos has. (there's a 20 man open topped rhino that was shown to be in use in the heresy, given chaos that and chaos would suddenly be a LOT better)

They would still suck, though. That's the problem. BA have literally none of the units and/or formations that make SM and SW good.

well keep in mind that formations are the one thing GW's been adding in these "quick fix reprints"

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.

....

BA can be fixed in less then 100 words. Seriously fixing marine equivalent armies is one of the simplest things to do.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.

....

BA can be fixed in less then 100 words. Seriously fixing marine equivalent armies is one of the simplest things to do.

Ok. Do it. Provide those 99 words or less. I await your great 40k wisdom in this regard.

Not much sarcasm intended even.

Traditio wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.

....

BA can be fixed in less then 100 words. Seriously fixing marine equivalent armies is one of the simplest things to do.

Ok. Do it. Provide those 99 words or less. I await your great 40k wisdom in this regard.

Not much sarcasm intended even.

I can do it in a lot less then 99 words.

Give Blood Angels the same rules as Vanilla Marines, Give them back the Old 4th Edition rules and boom, done.

*Drops Mic, Walks off stage.

Not 100 words, but, whenever they redo the Marine book again (so next year, at this rate :p)

Codex: Blood Angels is now considered Codex: Space Marines for all Rules purposes. Any Formation with the Blood Angels faction are now considered part of the Codex: Space Marines faction.

Codex: Blood Angels is replaced by the Codex: Space Marines book. New chapter tactics have been added:

Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels

Black Rage: Blood Angels models gain the Furious Charge Special Rule. In addition, on the first round of combat in which they charged, they gain +1 initiative.

Descent of Angels: All Deep Striking Blood Angels models only roll 1d6 for their scatter dice.

Chapter Tactics: Flesh Tearers

Black Rage: See Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels

Rip and Tear!: Flesh Tearers models gain the Rage and Rampage special rules.

Honor Guard gain the option to take Jump Packs for (price per model).

Honor Guard may take wrist mounted Stormbolters in place of their Boltguns for (points per model)

All Chapters now have access to Librarian Dreadnoughts.

Venerable Dreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts have access to Dreadnought pattern Lightning Claws. (S:user AP2 Melee, Shred, specialist weapon)

Master Apothecary is a new HQ choice for Codex: Space Marines.

Predators gain the option to take Turret mounted Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Flamestorm Cannon, and sponson mounted Heavy Flamers.

All Vehicles may take Over Charged Engines for (points)

(Aside: fluff could be that after the Baal campaign against the Tyranids, the Blood Angels decide the time has come to end the separation between the Mechanicum and themselves; thus, the vehicle technology spreads to all chapters)

Death Company are a choice for Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers chapter tactics only. (Like Crusader Squads)

Blood Angels and Flesh Tearer characters are added into Codex: Space Marines with appropriate Chapter Tactics.


There would be some dilution of 'unique' Blood Angels but the heart would still be there while gaining everything from the Codex proper. And it would enable some chapters that should have certain things (Raven Guard and jump pack Honor Guards, for example), so everyone wins, Imo.

Then again, I'm one of those people that thinks they should just recombine DA and BA into Codex: Space Marines, since they are about as close to codex adherent as Chapters like White Scars and Salamanders.

All scouts are WS/BS 4
All dreadnoughts get +2 attacks to their profile
Add disintegrator gun to the special Weapons list
Add assault ramps to the Blood Angels Vehicle Equipment list.
Heavy flamers on Dreads and Landspeeders get gain Torrent.
Add to Landraiders upgrades: personal void shield generator and Enhanced Ferromantic Rites
Blood angels get a +1 to cast on the Sanguinary discipline
SANGUINARY PRIESTs don't take up a HQ slot
BA units joined by SANGUINOR can assault from deepstrike
SANGUINARY GUARD gain hymms to the emperror
Mephiston casts on a 3+
Remove unwieldy form The Executioner’s Axe

100 words. You see buffing an army to the point that they suddenly become just as nasty as the big top armies isn't that hard.

The Adepta Sororitas Codex update could be done with a "quick Fix" - they even have a the cool new artwork already done from Leviathan............

It just needs a few more choices - Palatine as well as Canoness,
Tweek some units - Celestians, Penitent Engines in a particular.
Throw in the usual OP formations.
A couple of named mortal Sisters characters would be good - Magda Grace would work well.
Give the Exorcist access to anti-air missiles
Confirm that characters can take more than one relic - like Astartes.
Really cool would be Order specific Relics and "Chapter Tactics"

More importantly it needs new plastic models...........

BrianDavion wrote:
BA are easy eneugh to fix, give em access to grav weapons.

They already have grav weapons

Until the base game gets a significant rewrite in order to adress some of its core issues, any kind of "quick fix" to the armies will be akin to applying a human-sized bandage to a giant's arm. That said, if someone asked me about some quick fixes to CSM... well I wouldn't know where to start, but here's some tips:

- Legion rules back.
- Lieutenants back.
- Chaos Boon table goes down the gutter, the old daemonic rewards are back. Daemon Prince goes down the gutter as a default HQ choice, and goes back to a mandatory consequence of going over a certain amount of daemon boons points-wise.
- VotLW rule grants Hatred: IoM plus a veteran skill of choice.
- Chosen and Termies get WS5 and 2 wounds. Chosen get one veteran skill of choice. Termies count as having two Ccw at close combat (so the chainswords attached to their combi-weapons count for something). Points costs adjusted accordingly.
- Rhinos get the option of becoming open-topped.
- Warp Talons become useful somewhat, either a points drop, or being able to charge after arriving via deep-strike, or something. Perhaps could have the ability to go back to Reserves at any given moment if they pass a Ld check.
- The armoury is given some flavour. Daemon weapons, Kai guns, Daemon shields (+1 to Invul saves, with god-specific variants), Warp-infused ammo, etc.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The Adepta Sororitas Codex update could be done with a "quick Fix" - they even have a the cool new artwork already done from Leviathan............

It just needs a few more choices - Palatine as well as Canoness,
Tweek some units - Celestians, Penitent Engines in a particular.
Throw in the usual OP formations.
A couple of named mortal Sisters characters would be good - Magda Grace would work well.
Give the Exorcist access to anti-air missiles
Confirm that characters can take more than one relic - like Astartes.
Really cool would be Order specific Relics and "Chapter Tactics"

More importantly it needs new plastic models...........

The Sisters are very playable in this edition, but I agree, making Penitent Engines worth playing and adding AA Exos would go a long way. I think the Apocalypse formation special rules would do much of what is needed to make lackluster units competitive: rerollable FNP for Repentia, IWND for Pentitent Engines, Turn 1 DS for Seraphim, Torrent flamers for Retributers-- just rework the formation requirements and restrictions for play in smaller games. Celestians need something to make them worth using, maybe just a second AoF to make them shooty as well as choppy. Bring in the AV 13 Repressor from Forge World as a Rhino upgrade kit, and I think you'd have a very competitive army without having to abandon the flavor or the mid-ranged shooting niche. And of course, plastic models... my army has worn out an entire set of Dremel bits.

 oldzoggy wrote:
All scouts are WS/BS 4
All dreadnoughts get +2 attacks to their profile
Add disintegrator gun to the special Weapons list
Add assault ramps to the Blood Angels Vehicle Equipment list.
Heavy flamers on Dreads and Landspeeders get gain Torrent.
Add to Landraiders upgrades: personal void shield generator and Enhanced Ferromantic Rites
Blood angels get a +1 to cast on the Sanguinary discipline
SANGUINARY PRIESTs don't take up a HQ slot
BA units joined by SANGUINOR can assault from deepstrike
SANGUINARY GUARD gain hymms to the emperror
Mephiston casts on a 3+
Remove unwieldy form The Executioner’s Axe

100 words. You see buffing an army to the point that they suddenly become just as nasty as the big top armies isn't that hard.

This army still gets run over by TWC.

Martel732 wrote:
This army still gets run over by TWC

A I get it now you want that kind of "FIX"

Don't worry that can also been done in a quick fix.
Let me introduce you to the "BA auto win detachment"

Required: 1HQ, 1Elite, 1Fast
Optional 5HQ, 6Troop, 6Fast, 6 Heavy, 6 Low
Restriction BA only
All models in this detachment get
- an extra close combat weapon for free.
- +2 I
- objective secured
Sanguinary priest and land raiders are a free upgrade for infantry squads with 10+ models.
Assault terminators can re roll all their saves and Inv saves.
All power weapons are gain Instant death and all successfully inv saves have to be re rolled against them.
All flamers gain torrent.
All Melta weapons are assault 3
Rhino's gain the assault vehicle rule

There you have it a quick fix of 99 words is more then enough to turn your army into a complete OP nightmare. Now stop complaining. Your army isn't beyond saving, it is just not in the best of shape and your expectations are unrealistic.

You had to go to that length because ba can only field meqs and meqs are bad in general. We can field a limited number of bikers i suppose.

My point is that it's almost impossible to make assault meq viable at this point. Your rather unreasonable fixes show this.

Martel732 wrote:
You had to go to that length because ba can only field meqs and meqs are bad in general. We can field a limited number of bikers i suppose.

My point is that it's almost impossible to make assault meq viable at this point. Your rather unreasonable fixes show this.

No I didn't had to I just wanted to shut you up.
[Edit]I realize now that Add to Ignore would be a faster way to solve this.

maybe reprint the CSM 3.5 codex for chaos 7.5?

 oldzoggy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You had to go to that length because ba can only field meqs and meqs are bad in general. We can field a limited number of bikers i suppose.

My point is that it's almost impossible to make assault meq viable at this point. Your rather unreasonable fixes show this.

No I didn't had to I just wanted to shut you up.
[Edit]I realize now that Add to Ignore would be a faster way to solve this.

Please do so.

Martel732 wrote:
You had to go to that length because ba can only field meqs and meqs are bad in general. We can field a limited number of bikers i suppose.

My point is that it's almost impossible to make assault meq viable at this point. Your rather unreasonable fixes show this.

Blood Angels are not dedicated assault specialists.
They are still Marines, which makes the majority of their army still generalists, just like all other Loyalist Marines, bar Space Puppies. (because they don't hold to the Codex Astartes, while the Blood Angels actually do!)

Blood Angels simply have more individual units who are themselves assault specialists, such as Death Company & the various Furiosos.

If you want true melee MEQ specialists, then go play Khorne, or Black Templars, or Carcharadons or even just Chaos in general.

The ONLY thing that BA's need to 'fix' them, is to get the latest up-to-date 'Loyalist standards' applied to them, including;
- A4 Dreadnoughts
- WS4/BS4 Scouts, and access to the Land Speeder Storm.
- Grav cannon access.
- Vehicle squadrons.
- The two newer AA tanks
- Storm Talons
- Librarian Conclave
- Their own version of the standard Gladius/Lion's Blade detachment.

Going BA's means you trade out things like Thunderfire cannons & Centurions for Death Company, Furiosos & Baal Preds, while Sang Guard are replacements for more traditional Honour Guard.
Overall though, BA's are the 'uncontrolled assault marines', whereas Ravenguard are the 'sneaky assault marines'. Hence why BA's get army-wide Furious Charge. In the end though, no Blood Angel marine outside of a Death Company member or 1st company veteran is even close to an equalwhen compared to the likes of Khornate chaos marine. (let alone a damned Berserker - who BA's currently fight pretty much on par with btw, despite the 'Zerker costing at least 25% more...)

Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Maybe you missed it, but I hear that Space Marines - including Blood Angels, just got access to Eldar's Fortune power. (and that same lore even includes an invuln nuking power to boot, as well as turning any Librarian into a damned Greater Daemon!)

And BA Devs getting access to Grav cannons alone would be a massive boost. Especially if they can also get a detachment that allows for masses of free razorbacks & drop pods.

BA can't field enough libarians to get more than one copy of that power and ba don't have any units worth casting it on anyway. It's hard for ba to cast as well.

Twc can obviously get the same buff as well.

Even if ba could get grav cannons, what would we put them on? Non-skyhammer devs? Okay. They'll die before they can even fire.

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't field enough libarians to get more than one copy of that power and ba don't have any units worth casting it on anyway. It's hard for ba to cast as well.

Twc can obviously get the same buff as well.

Even if ba could get grav cannons, what would we put them on? Non-skyhammer devs? Okay. They'll die before they can even fire.

Blood Angels have some of the more powerful psykers in the game, nearly on par with grey knights

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Thats not a BA-only-problem. That stuff screws most armys up.

 Ankhalagon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Thats not a BA-only-problem. That stuff screws most armys up.

Maybe. SM can at least throw a swarm of free obj sec transports at the problem. Eldar are eldar. Tau specialize in bringing down large expensive squads.

It's hard to swallow because ba assault units basically never work as intended b/c 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Thats not a BA-only-problem. That stuff screws most armys up.

Maybe. SM can at least throw a swarm of free obj sec transports at the problem. Eldar are eldar. Tau specialize in bringing down large expensive squads.

It's hard to swallow because ba assault units basically never work as intended b/c 7th ed.

Really?! They are legit one of the most powerful units in the game! Handing out drop pods with that formation to their allies! If there is one army that def needs a nerf, it's ba and their OP formations

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Thats not a BA-only-problem. That stuff screws most armys up.

Maybe. SM can at least throw a swarm of free obj sec transports at the problem. Eldar are eldar. Tau specialize in bringing down large expensive squads.

It's hard to swallow because ba assault units basically never work as intended b/c 7th ed.

SM also specialise in bringing down large expensive squads with their grav cannons!

Also, why is yet another thread derailed by Martel just so he can whine about BA?

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't field enough libarians to get more than one copy of that power and ba don't have any units worth casting it on anyway. It's hard for ba to cast as well.

Twc can obviously get the same buff as well.

Even if ba could get grav cannons, what would we put them on? Non-skyhammer devs? Okay. They'll die before they can even fire.

It's not that hard to fill out a pair of basic CAD's with minimal Troops tax...
2x 5 Scouts + 2x min-sized Tac squads w/Melta or Heavy flamer & Pod/Razorback.
That gives you access to 4 Librarians - plenty enough to spam a single discipline and basically guarantee at least a couple of the best powers, while also still leaving plenty of pts left over to build a decent Death Company unit.

BA's are lucky enough that quick additions such as the Libby Conclave, Storm Talon & AA Tanks, plus the basic Dreadnought/Scout boosts would bring them up to par. Add in their variation of the Gladius/Lion's Blade and BA's are suddenly just as obnoxious as every other 7.5ed Loyalist Marine.

And while you may never accept it, most GSF's/Lion's Blade detachments do indeed include Grav cannon Devs. Even 2 cannons in a min-sized squad is enough to outright murder most MC's that aren't Riptides/Wraithknights.

Wishlisting is so much easier now. Used to you'd wishlist some awesome power for your army to get, but had to think of some drawback that balanced it out. Now it's just game on.

Grey Knights need a decurion that allows warp charges harnessed on a 3+ and a librarian conclave that allows the librarians to pick their powers. *evil laugh*

thraxdown wrote:
Wishlisting is so much easier now. Used to you'd wishlist some awesome power for your army to get, but had to think of some drawback that balanced it out. Now it's just game on.

Grey Knights need a decurion that allows warp charges harnessed on a 3+ and a librarian conclave that allows the librarians to pick their powers. *evil laugh*

Grey Knights are rumored to be getting their 7.5ed update & Knightcurion detachment as part of the next Warzone Fenris book.

I also predict that whatever the Thousand Sons get, it'll be at least 10x inferior, despite the fact that 1ksons are the one army outside of Daemons or Eldar who can equal or even surpass the psychic might of the GK's.

BA

WS/BS 4 scouts
Dreads w/4 attacks
Sang Priests back to 1-3 per slot
Devestators and tac access to Grav cannons /amps
Access to LSS
Access to Storm Talon
Give them access to Vehicle Squadrons
Make Termies 35 points like in the Vanilla Book
Give them some fething chapter tactics
Give Tycho back Dead Man's Hand
Make DC WS5 again
Give them access to Contemptors and Cataphractii Termies (as a first founding this should be a duuuhhh)
VV should be able to assault from DS again
Sanguinary Guard need access to Storm Shields

Wants
Mephy needs an invuln if he's gonna be 175 pts
Seths Sword needs to be AP3 or 2 (and he needs his nutshot rule back )
Access to AoD formations
Better relics

Not complicated at all. Fixed with a PDF in 15 minutes and it would un-ruin the dex.

It's not that i don't accept it. It's that grav devs are bad w/o skyhammer. I'm not debating whether people use them or not.

I've used 4x libby ba lists before. Still not enough warp charges and librarians are just kinda blech all around. It was a disaster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
BA

WS/BS 4 scouts
Dreads w/4 attacks
Sang Priests back to 1-3 per slot
Devestators and tac access to Grav cannons /amps
Access to LSS
Access to Storm Talon
Give them access to Vehicle Squadrons
Make Termies 35 points like in the Vanilla Book
Give them some fething chapter tactics
Give Tycho back Dead Man's Hand
Make DC WS5 again
Give them access to Contemptors and Cataphractii Termies (as a first founding this should be a duuuhhh)
VV should be able to assault from DS again
Sanguinary Guard need access to Storm Shields

Wants
Mephy needs an invuln if he's gonna be 175 pts
Seths Sword needs to be AP3 or 2 (and he needs his nutshot rule back )
Access to AoD formations
Better relics

Not complicated at all. Fixed with a PDF in 15 minutes and it would un-ruin the dex.

15 rules changes is not complicated? Even with those changes, still inferior to sw. There is no substitue for mcs or in the case of sw, units of mini-mcs. BA being stuck with almost all meqs is a death sentence.

Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

If you can't hang with best, is that really a solution?

All ba signature units are joke in the current game. Usually because they die or get crippled before they can assault, but sometimes because a real assault unit swats them like flies. I don't see this changing with any of the fixes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

BA lose to da, sm, gk, orks, tyranids, sometimes necrons, eldar wk, ik, and demons in assault. It's not just a sw thing.

Martel732 wrote:
If you can't hang with best, is that really a solution?

All ba signature units are joke in the current game. Usually because they die or get crippled before they can assault, but sometimes because a real assault unit swats them like flies. I don't see this changing with any of the fixes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

BA lose to da, sm, gk, orks, tyranids, sometimes necrons, eldar wk, ik, and demons in assault. It's not just a sw thing.

You seem to have completely ignored everyone saying that BA need access to the things Vanilla SM have just so you can whine about your admittedly underpowered army. In my FLGS, we consider Blood Angels and Dark Angels to be Space Marines with Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels/Dark Angels respectively. They have access to the same scouts and dreadnoughts, the same Dev squads, and the same formations. Let me tell you: A Blood Angels Skyhammer is freaking brutal! Now stop whining and admit that BA are a quick fix!

 EnTyme wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If you can't hang with best, is that really a solution?

All ba signature units are joke in the current game. Usually because they die or get crippled before they can assault, but sometimes because a real assault unit swats them like flies. I don't see this changing with any of the fixes.


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Dantes_Baals wrote:
Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

BA lose to da, sm, gk, orks, tyranids, sometimes necrons, eldar wk, ik, and demons in assault. It's not just a sw thing.

You seem to have completely ignored everyone saying that BA need access to the things Vanilla SM have just so you can whine about your admittedly underpowered army. In my FLGS, we consider Blood Angels and Dark Angels to be Space Marines with Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels/Dark Angels respectively. They have access to the same scouts and dreadnoughts, the same Dev squads, and the same formations. Let me tell you: A Blood Angels Skyhammer is freaking brutal! Now stop whining and admit that BA are a quick fix!

Won't happen cause then Martel won't be able to complain of anything

Would reprinting the CSM 3.5 codex be acceptable to CSM players, or are there updates that should be taken to account for changes in the game like overwatch or being unable to consolidate into another combat?

 EnTyme wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If you can't hang with best, is that really a solution?

All ba signature units are joke in the current game. Usually because they die or get crippled before they can assault, but sometimes because a real assault unit swats them like flies. I don't see this changing with any of the fixes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

BA lose to da, sm, gk, orks, tyranids, sometimes necrons, eldar wk, ik, and demons in assault. It's not just a sw thing.

You seem to have completely ignored everyone saying that BA need access to the things Vanilla SM have just so you can whine about your admittedly underpowered army. In my FLGS, we consider Blood Angels and Dark Angels to be Space Marines with Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels/Dark Angels respectively. They have access to the same scouts and dreadnoughts, the same Dev squads, and the same formations. Let me tell you: A Blood Angels Skyhammer is freaking brutal! Now stop whining and admit that BA are a quick fix!

Why is a BA skyhammer better than any other skyhammer? Also, you basically have turned BA into the vanilla marines, so of course that would be a quick fix. What's NOT a quick fix is doing it by other methods. I haven't ignored the posts. But just giving BA grav cannons and 4 attack dreads is not nearly enough. Giving them the formations obviously is, because then they are indistinguishable from vanilla marines. Making them vanilla marines is a trivially obvious quick fix.

Note that with this fix, however, BA signature units would still be a complete joke.

Harlies could make do with a quick fix if you just gave them a Great Harlequin HQ choice. Doesn't fix a lot of the problems, but makes it much easier to put a force together.

Tyranids are in a weird place in that I think they could be given a quickfix if they just printed all of the formations and rules in one book. However that only makes them playable, and a lot of units still need far more massive tweaks (Warriors, the two new MCs, genestealers, etc...).

Chaos definitely needs a full overhaul; it's rules are so fragmented and dated it's no longer funny. Same goes for Orks.

Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights can do with a quick fix (especially in the case of Space Wolves where you just change a few values to match the SM costs for stuff that should be identical, like the dreadnought).

The biggest one in need of a quick fix is the AdMechs, who are clearly written as one army in mind but was split up due to production deadlines. Imperial Knights can be rolled into this one for some "spring cleaning" of the webpage (cuz, really, you only need one datasheet for the knights and a few for the formations. That's all really it).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Tyranids are in a weird place in that I think they could be given a quickfix if they just printed all of the formations and rules in one book. However that only makes them playable, and a lot of units still need far more massive tweaks (Warriors, the two new MCs, genestealers, etc...).

In regars to Tyranids, really, I think it's just a rules issue that's crushing them right now...
- Synapse needs some re-working, and (I'm no bug expert by any means here), imho, the rule should also give a 4+ FnP in order to help boost those all-important leader bugs. (of which, only a Hive Tyrant is even remotely playable nowadays, thanks to being a possible FMC)

- Their psychic lores are plainly abysmal. Only CSM's are in worse shape. Keep them with their two main lores, but also give them back some access to Biomancy as it would provide a huge amount of added synergies the army is badly lacking in.

- Obviously, the points costing is an issue, but one that's incredibly easy to fix.

- Only "new' unit that really needs focusing on, is adding in a generic entry for Genestealer Cultists.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Chaos definitely needs a full overhaul; it's rules are so fragmented and dated it's no longer funny. Same goes for Orks.

Besides a 100% brand new model line, (okay, keep the 'Drake & Dinobots - but burn everything else!), Chaos really just needs GW to stop differentiating them by simply making them Marines with 0 special rules!

Our Land Raider is the perfect example of just how stupidly bass akwards our overall design is, and has been over the past decade plus.

I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

The thing is most of those would be big fixes, especially mob rule as it's their racial rule. Some other units, like the Nauts, would need to re-evaluate just what they're suppose to do.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Tyranids are in a weird place in that I think they could be given a quickfix if they just printed all of the formations and rules in one book. However that only makes them playable, and a lot of units still need far more massive tweaks (Warriors, the two new MCs, genestealers, etc...).

In regars to Tyranids, really, I think it's just a rules issue that's crushing them right now...
- Synapse needs some re-working, and (I'm no bug expert by any means here), imho, the rule should also give a 4+ FnP in order to help boost those all-important leader bugs. (of which, only a Hive Tyrant is even remotely playable nowadays, thanks to being a possible FMC)

- Their psychic lores are plainly abysmal. Only CSM's are in worse shape. Keep them with their two main lores, but also give them back some access to Biomancy as it would provide a huge amount of added synergies the army is badly lacking in.

- Obviously, the points costing is an issue, but one that's incredibly easy to fix.

- Only "new' unit that really needs focusing on, is adding in a generic entry for Genestealer Cultists.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Chaos definitely needs a full overhaul; it's rules are so fragmented and dated it's no longer funny. Same goes for Orks.

Besides a 100% brand new model line, (okay, keep the 'Drake & Dinobots - but burn everything else!), Chaos really just needs GW to stop differentiating them by simply making them Marines with 0 special rules!

Our Land Raider is the perfect example of just how stupidly bass akwards our overall design is, and has been over the past decade plus.

Tyranids only have one psychic discipline, and yes, it is not good. Shadows in the Warp also needs to be overhauled, as it doesn't work as intended.

I'd also love to see the Haruspex fixed. It has some really cool rules, and they clearly tried to make it distinctive. But only 3 attacks? WS 3? 6'' movement? Same thing with the Maleceptor. But anyway, I digress.

Martel732 wrote:
Why is a BA skyhammer better than any other skyhammer?

If you can't see why Assault Marines with meltaguns DSing in turn one is nasty, or why those same marines charging turn one with Furious Charge is equally brutal, I can't help you.

 EnTyme wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why is a BA skyhammer better than any other skyhammer?

If you can't see why Assault Marines with meltaguns DSing in turn one is nasty, or why those same marines charging turn one with Furious Charge is equally brutal, I can't help you.

Meltaguns haven't been good since 7th. It would be nice to actually get to use FC, but regular ASM still aren't scaring anyone even charging at S5.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

The thing is most of those would be big fixes, especially mob rule as it's their racial rule. Some other units, like the Nauts, would need to re-evaluate just what they're suppose to do.

Fixing one rule is a massive overhaul? Not really. And again, for Nauts, point reduction. For less than it's cost, it would be a great unit, same with the Stompa.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

The thing is most of those would be big fixes, especially mob rule as it's their racial rule. Some other units, like the Nauts, would need to re-evaluate just what they're suppose to do.

Fixing one rule is a massive overhaul? Not really. And again, for Nauts, point reduction. For less than it's cost, it would be a great unit, same with the Stompa.

Considering that one rule could completely change the dynamic of how Orks play, yes. I would consider that a massive overhaul. It's like how Necron RP went from "roll for all at the end of the phase" to "roll for each unsaved wound". It's a single rule change, but it completely changes how Necrons play (or more specifically, how others deal with Necrons).

 EnTyme wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

The thing is most of those would be big fixes, especially mob rule as it's their racial rule. Some other units, like the Nauts, would need to re-evaluate just what they're suppose to do.

Fixing one rule is a massive overhaul? Not really. And again, for Nauts, point reduction. For less than it's cost, it would be a great unit, same with the Stompa.

Considering that one rule could completely change the dynamic of how Orks play, yes. I would consider that a massive overhaul. It's like how Necron RP went from "roll for all at the end of the phase" to "roll for each unsaved wound". It's a single rule change, but it completely changes how Necrons play (or more specifically, how others deal with Necrons).

I disagree. I see a "complete overhaul" as redesigning units and models and functionally writing a new codex, ala CSM. Seriously, changing the Mob Rule is one of the few things needed to make Orks not total garbage. And it doesn't "completely change the dynamic of how Orks play", it makes them not runaway, take pinning tests, or fail every Leadership test thrown at them. It's in no way comparable to RP.

If you can, please explain to me how changing a LD rule functionally changes how Orks play.

Haven't seen anyone mention anything about the Guard as of yet.

I think there's some quick fixes that would be in order for us lowly grunts of the Imperium.

Certain orders need a bit of a reworking. I think something should be done about the Lasgun in the current meta. For being the Mechanized Army of choice at one time, the whole benefit of Tank Squadrons seems to be taken from us.

And there's a boatload of units that deserve a point shift/reworking to be usable in play.


I think Orks, as mentioned, absolutely need a few fixes to them. I find it interesting that the army lacks a simple invulnerable save. If that's the angle we're going, fine, but I'd up the FnP capabilities of the Orks (Minus just the Painboy). Also I find it hilarious you can only put one relic on a model, yet other armies are walking relic glitterbombs.

Chaos needs a huge points overhaul which is going to be somewhat difficult with all the supplemental books and books that have similar or like-units (Khorne Berserkers in mind).

The Gorkanaut would be good with a points reduction, but honestly I'd rather see it with a buff. It would be so epic to see a Gorkanaut be able to stand up to an Imperial Knight and slug it out with one, with either side having a good chance at being the winner. I'd like to see the Gorkanaut be slightly worse in shooting than a knight, but slightly better in close combat. Definitely make it a superheavy, even if it stays as a heavy support choice.

The same is true of DeafDreads and Kans. Do for them what they did for Space marine dreadnoughts. A Deff Dread with 5 attacks (plus bunus for extra arms) would be something I'd want to field. Giving an extra attack to Kans would make a unit of 5 something even dedicated combat specialists would avoid.


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Chaos Marines.... Ouch, thinking of fixing them gives me a headache. While they are about on par with Imperial Guard for amount of needed fixes, they just seem harder to fix without becoming "spiky imperials"

Marks and cult troopers need to mean something. Also Cult troops need to be upgrades to other units like in the 3.5 codex. I want Berserker Bikers, Rubric Terminators, and Death Guard Cultists dang it!

Internal and external balance needs help. Right now they basically have none. It looks like possessed will never have rules good enough to see them on the table.

As for the models, The Good Ones include the Heldrake, Dinobots, Helbrute, Terminators, Possessed, Cultists, most of the Character models (terminator Lord, etc.), Landraider, Rhino, and Warp Talons.

The ones that need replaced are cult troops, Havoks, Mutilators/obliterators, basic marines, and bikers.

 cuda1179 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chaos Marines.... Ouch, thinking of fixing them gives me a headache. While they are about on par with Imperial Guard for amount of needed fixes, they just seem harder to fix without becoming "spiky imperials"

Marks and cult troopers need to mean something. Also Cult troops need to be upgrades to other units like in the 3.5 codex. I want Berserker Bikers, Rubric Terminators, and Death Guard Cultists dang it!

Internal and external balance needs help. Right now they basically have none. It looks like possessed will never have rules good enough to see them on the table.

People need to accept that at their core, Chaos Marines really are just Space Marines gone evil. Their basic equipments & options damn well should be mirrors of each other. otherwise all we really are is Space Marines with 0 special rules to make us function, just so Loyalists don't get their feeling hurt by having a similar army to them...

Look at the history of the Land Raider to prove just how jaw-dropingly stupid Chaos designs have become;
Way back in the day, GW realised that the Land Raider simply didn't work at all, due to how the core rules did not support in any way a heavy transport that also functioned as a main battle tank. So, the Power of the Machine Spirit rule was errata'ed into place, as a way to make a transport with multiple & vastly different weapons work within the confines of the rules.
Likewise, Terminators were hot garbage back in 3rd edition, as everything of note simply murdered them. So, GW gave them a 5++ in order to help boost their playability.

Shortly afterwards, the 3.5ed Chaos codex was released, and at that time, the Chaos Land Raider, which is functionally the exact same ******* thing as the Loyalist one, was given the same PotMS rule, but simply re-named as the Infernal Device.
Why is this? Because without that same rule, the Chaos version would have stayed entirely unplayable!

Flash forwards to the great gutting of Chaos, and GW decided that in order to simple make the Chaos Land Raider different from the Loyalist version, the ID rule was outright removed, thereby dooming the Chaos vehicle to becoming an unplayable mess, which still doesn't even function at a basic level!

Chaos Marines are simply what happens when you force elite, points heavy models to play without the benefit of proper supportive rules. Until GW pulls their collective heads outa their poop chutes, and realises that Chaos Marines are really just a more extreme diversion of what are functionally still basic Space Marines, we're going to continue to be steaming monkey gak.

 cuda1179 wrote:
As for the models, The Good Ones include the Heldrake, Dinobots, Helbrute, Terminators, Possessed, Cultists, most of the Character models (terminator Lord, etc.), Landraider, Rhino, and Warp Talons.

The ones that need replaced are cult troops, Havoks, Mutilators/obliterators, basic marines, and bikers.

No. The entire model line with the exception of the Helbrute, Dinobots & Helturkey need to be purged, and re-designed from the ground up.

Our Terminator kit is easily the single worst plastic kit in the entire 40k model line, as it comes with maaaaaybe 30% of the unit's basic options... Actually, I'd challenge anyone to show me another plastic kit that can't even build the basic codex weapon load out for each squad member! (go one, I dare you!)

I agree that Terminator need more parts in the box. That is easily solved with an additional weapons spru. I still think the Landraider and Rhino are fine. The Warp talons are still good.


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I agree that there needs to be a return of the Infernal device, or at least something along those lines to make the Chaos Landraider work. Personally, I'd like a deamon possession rule as an upgrade. All weapons fire independently and at full BS, but a small chance of hitting your own guys.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Technically I'd put Tyranids here too, but really, if you just reprint their codex to include all the "extras" like the drop pod, new creatures, new Zoanthrope options, etc. this would almost make them playable.

I'd like some of what you're smoking. Tyrannocytes and Zoanthropes in competitive Tyranid lists? lol

Codex: Flyrant need a complete overhaul, badly. Imo Nids are were old Necrons were, back when they could be phased out. Tyranids army wide special rule is to commit suicide after you kill the dudes with the shoot-me-first sign. So players take 5 Flyrants with mucolids for troops to bypass the punishing 'flavourful' rule. Yes the faction has one competitive build, but it's as one dimensional as it gets.

As a main guard player I've so far run a pretty steady 50%/50% win lose ratio in 7th so I don't really see the issue with guards. Maybe I'm not playing against good enough opponents but still. Ran one tournament but have mostly been doing friendly gaming.

I can see how the rough riders and ogryns are simply terrible for their points costs, as are some of the russ variants, but I don't see this cry out for a complete overhaul some people have mentioned. Is it the lack of formations? The low perfomrnace of some units? The overall lack of cheese? When I win it's (almost always) because of objectives, not kills, and objectives seems to be what guards excell at. Also I adhore the voice of command rules and the platoon layouts, it really helps giving it a unique feel.

@Experiment 626


Firstly I completely sympathise with the plight of CSM players. I play orks and my most regular opponents play CSM. CSM rules need overhauling and their models need a lot of love. I'm with you 100%.
But:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Our Terminator kit is easily the single worst plastic kit in the entire 40k model line, as it comes with maaaaaybe 30% of the unit's basic options... Actually, I'd challenge anyone to show me another plastic kit that can't even build the basic codex weapon load out for each squad member! (go one, I dare you!)

Ork lootas/burnas. Only 4 lootas or burnas per box and a mek. Thankfully we can throw a bigshoota on the mek and he is a decent stand-in for a loota. I was furious when I bought the box though.

Also I find it hilarious you can only put one relic on a model, yet other armies are walking relic glitterbombs

Yeah that's a major irritation for older codexes....

Blood Angels aren't that difficult to fix. If they received a book the size of Angels of Death that they could split with Grey Knights (Dark Angels and Space Wolves could split a book), I am sure they could make it work.

Largely, they would need to up the Dreadnought attacks, increase Scout BS/WS, and add vehicle squadrons. Baal Predators need to be able to be taken in Squadrons and I think their special rule should give Scout back. The Overcharged Engines should be made free and included on every tank that can take them. Several units need to have a price reduction to match C:SM.

Formations aren't that hard. They need a Strike Force Detachment, a Battle Demi-Company, and some formations that play to their strengths. One of the big things they need is the ability to assault out of deep strike basically on any unit that can deep strike.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Tyranids are in a weird place in that I think they could be given a quickfix if they just printed all of the formations and rules in one book. However that only makes them playable, and a lot of units still need far more massive tweaks (Warriors, the two new MCs, genestealers, etc...).

Tyranids need a huge overhaul. Some units only need a few changes at most, some need more than that and theres a few that need a complete redesign. Shadow in the Warp and Synapse both need to be completely re-worked and our Psychic Powers and Warlord Traits are gak, I don't mind us not having access to Biomancy but we really need at least 2 disciplines, one for attack/debuffs and another for defence/buffs. Given the amount of changes needed I'm not sure where that leaves us on the formations since they'd all end up working differently.

 Moolet wrote:
@Experiment 626


Firstly I completely sympathise with the plight of CSM players. I play orks and my most regular opponents play CSM. CSM rules need overhauling and their models need a lot of love. I'm with you 100%.
But:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Our Terminator kit is easily the single worst plastic kit in the entire 40k model line, as it comes with maaaaaybe 30% of the unit's basic options... Actually, I'd challenge anyone to show me another plastic kit that can't even build the basic codex weapon load out for each squad member! (go one, I dare you!)

Ork lootas/burnas. Only 4 lootas or burnas per box and a mek. Thankfully we can throw a bigshoota on the mek and he is a decent stand-in for a loota. I was furious when I bought the box though.

Fair enough, though at least the Mek is decently useful, and/or just adding a few extra bits can easily kitbash a 5th Loota. (Burnas are kind gak out of luck though...)

Still pales in comparison to how outright unusable our Termie kit is. I mean, we only get 3 Combi-bolters/Power weapon sets, and even then, it's 2 Power axes + a Power maul!
Never mind that the kit is outright missing even a single component for;
- Power sword
- Power lance/glaive
- Lightning claw/pair of claws
- Combi-Plasma
- Icons

It actually easier to build a termie squad by simply buying 3-4 of the Termie Lord/Sorc kits! You're still missing our on the Combi-plasma entirely, (and only get a Combi-melta, but who uses single shot flamers besides crazy Tzeentch or Khorne players anyways?!), but at least you get the ability to build a functional termiecide unit of Combi-Meltas, or Lightning claw MoK/MoS crazies.

It's really a shame GW gaked up the kit so bad, because on the whole, the Termies are one of our best looking kits in terms of the overall model details.
I'd be overjoyed if we simply got a re-working of the kit that kept the main bodies/heads/shoulder pads, and instead moved all the weapon options onto a new set of sprues that at least contained;
5x Combi-bolter, designed in a way similar to the Tactical Squad combi-weapon. Then add 2x components each for melta/Flamer/Plasma, + 5 basic Bolters
2x Power sword/axe/maul each
4x Power fist
2x Chainfist
3x Pair of Lightning claws
Put the Heavy flamer + Reaper cannon onto the main body frame.

At least that kind of kit becomes completely viable. (Icons honestly need to be removed, and their rules just turned into a basic upgrade instead of being so easily sniped out)

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Blood Angels aren't that difficult to fix. If they received a book the size of Angels of Death that they could split with Grey Knights (Dark Angels and Space Wolves could split a book), I am sure they could make it work.

Largely, they would need to up the Dreadnought attacks, increase Scout BS/WS, and add vehicle squadrons. Baal Predators need to be able to be taken in Squadrons and I think their special rule should give Scout back. The Overcharged Engines should be made free and included on every tank that can take them. Several units need to have a price reduction to match C:SM.

Formations aren't that hard. They need a Strike Force Detachment, a Battle Demi-Company, and some formations that play to their strengths. One of the big things they need is the ability to assault out of deep strike basically on any unit that can deep strike.

Lol! No! Please, just no.

The very last thing this game needs is an entire army that can automatically bypass shooting in general and auto-win upon their deployment!
Between the very large amount of Jump pack units, and/or everything else that can just take Drop Pods for ultra safe deployment right on top of your opponent's army, BA's would be hilarious broken as gak.

Assault out of Deep Strike is just too powerful on the whole. No one - not even Daemons (who let's face it, are THE fluffiest Deep Strike focused army), should not have such an ability.

 cuda1179 wrote:
As for the complete overhauls, I'd say Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Marines are the prime candidates.

None of those are even close to the level of complete overhaul that Sisters of Battle need.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

Except it should be
-Reduce points on ALL Ork models
-Change ALL rule changes back to the 4th edition codex, (like Deff Rollas, Mob Rule)
-Change Mob Rule to something good or get rid of it and give Nobz LD8
-Give ALL Characters Waaagh, make the Waaagh rule better, Bring back the old benefit for the Dakkajet, you know when people actually bothered to take it.

Or conversely you could make 1 change to the Ork codex and it would make everything balanced and fair for ork players. Powerklaws are a free upgrade for any model in the entire army. There now we are good.

I'm pretty sure the space wolf terminator kit only comes with a single power weapon, and power weapons and storm bolters are their basic weapon loadout?

 Melissia wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
As for the complete overhauls, I'd say Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Marines are the prime candidates.

None of those are even close to the level of complete overhaul that Sisters of Battle need.

Sisters don't just need an overhaul, they need a full re-release.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Technically I'd put Tyranids here too, but really, if you just reprint their codex to include all the "extras" like the drop pod, new creatures, new Zoanthrope options, etc. this would almost make them playable.

I'd like some of what you're smoking. Tyrannocytes and Zoanthropes in competitive Tyranid lists? lol

Codex: Flyrant need a complete overhaul, badly. Imo Nids are were old Necrons were, back when they could be phased out. Tyranids army wide special rule is to commit suicide after you kill the dudes with the shoot-me-first sign. So players take 5 Flyrants with mucolids for troops to bypass the punishing 'flavourful' rule. Yes the faction has one competitive build, but it's as one dimensional as it gets.

This^ !!! Tyranids need a major overhaul and that means looking at the philosophy behind how the army operates, what are powers/units supposed to do, etc. SitW needs overhauling, synapse and instinctive behaviour need overhauling, Far too many units/biomorphs have poor rules/stats/point costs. The 6th ed nid dex was a terrible product the day released and was basically a copy/paste of lots of the 5th edition dex without addressing the major problems with that dex. Then we move to 7th ed and things got worse with so many changes to the game - the crappy dex did not age well at all. As NIB said to compete with the other big armies tyranids are really codex: flyrant

 EnTyme wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
As for the complete overhauls, I'd say Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Marines are the prime candidates.

None of those are even close to the level of complete overhaul that Sisters of Battle need.

Sisters don't just need an overhaul, they need a full re-release.

IE the most overhauly overhaul that ever overhauled.

 Melissia wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
As for the complete overhauls, I'd say Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Marines are the prime candidates.

None of those are even close to the level of complete overhaul that Sisters of Battle need.

Sisters don't just need an overhaul, they need a full re-release.

IE the most overhauly overhaul that ever overhauled.

And if they ever get around to it, I'll be one of the first in line to start a Sisters army. They have some of my favorite fluff in the game, but I'm not playing the ridiculous prices I see on ebay for a metal army that doesn't feel complete in the current meta.

Putting all the existing Tyranid formations and units into the codex won't make them any more playable, it just makes it more convenient to find rules. They're still the exact same rules you can use already.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Putting all the existing Tyranid formations and units into the codex won't make them any more playable, it just makes it more convenient to find rules. They're still the exact same rules you can use already.

Two things Kharn,
1: Stop making sense, it is against GW policy
2: You aren't allowed to complain that your army is garbage, it makes the SM/Tau/Eldar armies feel less excited when they table you.

SemperMortis wrote:

2: You aren't allowed to complain that your army is garbage, it makes the SM/Tau/Eldar armies feel less excited when they table you.

thats a pretty toxic thought. I prefer games that are not a one sided battle. This to say i play Tau since 4th. Edition.

But honestly... if anyone comes up with a talking like this i see no reason to hold back in any way. At least i am kind enough to allow him to whine with reason about his weak army.


In any other cases i try to get my list and such tweaked in a way both of us have fun.

 _ghost_ wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

2: You aren't allowed to complain that your army is garbage, it makes the SM/Tau/Eldar armies feel less excited when they table you.

thats a pretty toxic thought. I prefer games that are not a one sided battle. This to say i play Tau since 4th. Edition.

But honestly... if anyone comes up with a talking like this i see no reason to hold back in any way. At least i am kind enough to allow him to whine with reason about his weak army.


In any other cases i try to get my list and such tweaked in a way both of us have fun.

Shhh, remember eldar and tau players are TFG powergamers no matter what they use /s lol

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

2: You aren't allowed to complain that your army is garbage, it makes the SM/Tau/Eldar armies feel less excited when they table you.

thats a pretty toxic thought. I prefer games that are not a one sided battle. This to say i play Tau since 4th. Edition.

But honestly... if anyone comes up with a talking like this i see no reason to hold back in any way. At least i am kind enough to allow him to whine with reason about his weak army.


In any other cases i try to get my list and such tweaked in a way both of us have fun.

Shhh, remember eldar and tau players are TFG powergamers no matter what they use /s lol

How's that axe you've been grinding? Must be pretty sharp by now

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

2: You aren't allowed to complain that your army is garbage, it makes the SM/Tau/Eldar armies feel less excited when they table you.

thats a pretty toxic thought. I prefer games that are not a one sided battle. This to say i play Tau since 4th. Edition.

But honestly... if anyone comes up with a talking like this i see no reason to hold back in any way. At least i am kind enough to allow him to whine with reason about his weak army.


In any other cases i try to get my list and such tweaked in a way both of us have fun.

Shhh, remember eldar and tau players are TFG powergamers no matter what they use /s lol

That's actually not too far off for the have-not codices.

Martel732 wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

2: You aren't allowed to complain that your army is garbage, it makes the SM/Tau/Eldar armies feel less excited when they table you.

thats a pretty toxic thought. I prefer games that are not a one sided battle. This to say i play Tau since 4th. Edition.

But honestly... if anyone comes up with a talking like this i see no reason to hold back in any way. At least i am kind enough to allow him to whine with reason about his weak army.


In any other cases i try to get my list and such tweaked in a way both of us have fun.

Shhh, remember eldar and tau players are TFG powergamers no matter what they use /s lol

That's actually not too far off for the have-not codices.

The worst contenders for the OP codex are blood angel players with their ultimate formations and all that special war gear that don't see what their codex can actually do. I mean that codex is like space marines x5!

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

2: You aren't allowed to complain that your army is garbage, it makes the SM/Tau/Eldar armies feel less excited when they table you.

thats a pretty toxic thought. I prefer games that are not a one sided battle. This to say i play Tau since 4th. Edition.

But honestly... if anyone comes up with a talking like this i see no reason to hold back in any way. At least i am kind enough to allow him to whine with reason about his weak army.


In any other cases i try to get my list and such tweaked in a way both of us have fun.

Shhh, remember eldar and tau players are TFG powergamers no matter what they use /s lol

That's actually not too far off for the have-not codices.

The worst contenders for the OP codex are blood angel players with their ultimate formations and all that special war gear that don't see what their codex can actually do. I mean that codex is like space marines x5!

I know right? That relic that let's you reroll seize the initiative and you insts-win if you do seize... I dunno why people don't take that. Or the Blood dragons that Sanguinary guard ride with their S8 T8 FMC/ S10 AP2 hellstorm breath weapon. Only 20 additional points per Sanguinary Guard. A full unit of 10 has tabled my opponent more times thsn i can remember. The BA dex is like... wasaaaayyy OP man.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
As for the complete overhauls, I'd say Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Marines are the prime candidates.

None of those are even close to the level of complete overhaul that Sisters of Battle need.

Sisters don't just need an overhaul, they need a full re-release.

And yet hilariously, their actual rules are in much better shape than the poor CSM's.

Sisters have little to no trouble beat the living gak out of Chaos Marines... The only things they legit struggle with are Helturkies, and flying Nurgle Princes.

Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

He's right you know. When you guys had the hell chicken list, there were still complaints.

I agree with you there Melissia, (Not the whining part, but the sisters getting released part.) I know how bad CSM is hurting, and no matter how frustrated I am about it. I would happily give up on a CSM update for [Insert absurd number here] years if it meant Sisters got a proper update and release in plastics. Mostly cause i could actually start the army proper instead of just collecting a few models here and there.

That would ruin the internal balance though. Free klaw, play too 'upgrade' to buy choppa.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I disagree. I see a "complete overhaul" as redesigning units and models and functionally writing a new codex, ala CSM. Seriously, changing the Mob Rule is one of the few things needed to make Orks not total garbage. And it doesn't "completely change the dynamic of how Orks play", it makes them not runaway, take pinning tests, or fail every Leadership test thrown at them. It's in no way comparable to RP.

If you can, please explain to me how changing a LD rule functionally changes how Orks play.

That one rule does effectively change the way Orks play. In fact the entire reason why Orks got kicked in the nads was because that rule got changed without considerations to what it did to balance. A 6 point Ork with the old 4th edition of the rule effectively ignored it's LD7 when it's squad was over 10 models and was, more or less, a Khorne Berserker with worse armor, but for 1/4th of the points . It meant that you could feasably put them in a trukk and even if the trukk blew up, they wouldn't flee even with casualties. You also didn't have to buy characters with high LD or Bosspoles just to keep your units from running away.

Now if a trukk blew up, you'd have to test for leadership. With LD7 regardless of the number of survivors, they'll probably be running. If you tried to mitigate that LD7 with a character (say a nob) then he might end up cracking heads, losing you even more boyz. These are hyperboles but still very much possible. Now if they had kept the "gain fearless when over 11 models" then the boyz wouldn't give two squig's ass about the trukk blowing up. And this goes for every Ork unit in the book that can take more than 10 models in their unit.

Racial rules form the very basis of armies and so changing them, no matter how small, would fundamentally change how that army is played and would be a complete overhaul. If you need a comparison, just look at Space Marines VS Chaos Space Marines; one is considered indefinitely worse because it runs away when it fails a morale check and the other doesn't. That's basically the difference between 4th edition Orks and 7th edition Orks.

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

You have it fairly right in regards to what hurt the ork codex pretty badly.

The biggest problem that orks have is that we are incapable of fielding MSU armies because of that LD7, We can field 2 bikers with a nob/PK on a bike (3 total models) and if one dies then more then likely they will either flee off the table or the nob will kill the other boy reducing your bike squad to a nob/pk who can easily be shot to death, or realistically ignored until he charges you and gets overwatched to death.

Orks also have the only vehicles in the game with Pseudo leadership (Killa Kanz/Cowardly Grots)

Those same killa kanz also got a 40%ish increase in cost, (35pts to 50pts) and With the new edition rules they are effectively table ornaments.

Grey Knights are a really quick fix: give nemesis strike force assault out of deepstrike. They'd instantly go from mid-tier to highly competitive.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

Be glad you didn't get an update then. You'd have been nerfed into the trash bin just like BA were. Bad/outdated models is one thing, but at least your army has solid rules. Would you still be as content to be playing sisters if say, in Shield of Baal, you got a plastic battle sister squad and St Celestine and a printed codex that turned your army into unplayable gak? Because in all probability that's exactly what would have happened had you gotten a Shield of Baal update. They would have wrecked your dex and given you 2 MAYBE 3 plastic kits. Maybe none.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

Be glad you didn't get an update then. You'd have been nerfed into the trash bin just like BA were. Bad/outdated models is one thing, but at least your army has solid rules. Would you still be as content to be playing sisters if say, in Shield of Baal, you got a plastic battle sister squad and St Celestine and a printed codex that turned your army into unplayable gak? Because in all probability that's exactly what would have happened had you gotten a Shield of Baal update. They would have wrecked your dex and given you 2 MAYBE 3 plastic kits. Maybe none.

Not a Sisters player. I am a Blood Angels player. And don't even get me started on that.

You say "be thankful", and yet we still basically haven't had a real update that actually improved our lists since 3rd edition (everything since then has basically just been a lame rehash, and hasn't actually involved a real physical codex and we've not gained anything actually new), and haven't had new models since 2nd barring a few rare exceptions... many of which aren't for sale any more anyway (which, let's face it, is the reason our rules haven't actually had anything new and exciting in so long-- if they had something new they wanted to sell, they'd have made rules for it).

You honestly don't have much to complain about compared to that.

Agree to disagree. Army swap with a buddy who runs BA if possible and see how it feels when everyone in your group asks you if you want a handicap before the game because your book is THAT BAD. You have fun with your Sororitas, yes? Well imagine having half as much fun for half as many turns because when you nut up and refuse the handicap you almost always get tabled by turn four.

I doubt sisters will get a codex before they get a plastic release. The way I see it, is that GW won't update them or make a new line for them because no one is buying them. No one buys them because there's not been an update/new line.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

Be glad you didn't get an update then. You'd have been nerfed into the trash bin just like BA were. Bad/outdated models is one thing, but at least your army has solid rules. Would you still be as content to be playing sisters if say, in Shield of Baal, you got a plastic battle sister squad and St Celestine and a printed codex that turned your army into unplayable gak? Because in all probability that's exactly what would have happened had you gotten a Shield of Baal update. They would have wrecked your dex and given you 2 MAYBE 3 plastic kits. Maybe none.

The current Sororitas Codex is not bad but like others is fading fast as the power codexes get their OP formations, upgrades freebies and such..

The Blood Angels at least have / are getting new models - not just by GW but also via FW. They are not at the point where GW seems to be cutting the whole line because they can't be bothered to make non Marines.

According to their own fluff, Blood Angels are a codex chapter with a few oddities - like the Death Company. The 5th (?) ed codex with its explosion of Blood themes - blood guns firing blood missiles that explode in blood is as bad as the wolf riding wolf marines in wolf armour with a wolf claw sword.

As others have said the SOB are in GW made catch 22 - they don't sell because they don't make them, therefore they make less so they don't sell....I think they were going to do but didn't for some reason - why commission all the new artwork otherwise?

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

Be glad you didn't get an update then. You'd have been nerfed into the trash bin just like BA were. Bad/outdated models is one thing, but at least your army has solid rules. Would you still be as content to be playing sisters if say, in Shield of Baal, you got a plastic battle sister squad and St Celestine and a printed codex that turned your army into unplayable gak? Because in all probability that's exactly what would have happened had you gotten a Shield of Baal update. They would have wrecked your dex and given you 2 MAYBE 3 plastic kits. Maybe none.

At least Blood Angels have one of the single best model lines in the entire game...

Sisters at least get semi-decent rules that will work especially well in non-Tournament style play...

Chaos Marines have a model line that's almost as ancient as Sisters, fugly as steaming rodent gak, and our army is so bad that we typically get tabled within 2 turns.
Try playing as Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Marines that don't use any Daemons or can't even access IA:13. Our rules are designed to outright screw us over.