Well that was the final straw for me. I have been holding out hope since they said they were going to come out with a new Ork Codex for 7th edition that Orks might finally be competitive with other armies outside of 1 or 2 builds.
Since then we had the codex release, which nerfed every viable ork list. They released Mork/gorkanauts and Flash Gitz which are utter trash. Nerfed anything fun in the codex (IE Ramshackle) and to add insult to injury, took away the ability to take an invul save for the entire faction (KFF is a 5+- because it doesn't function in CC, you know...where orks are supposed to excel at).
Then GW teased Orks again with the Waaagh Ghaz supplement which turned out to be a big steaming pile of garbage. So many amazing builds in that supplement which could have been simply amazing, but instead of giving them rules that made them worth taking, they made them fething useless. Case and point, Blitz Brigade. Take 5 Battle Wagonz and they gain Scout. And then it goes on to say in detail that you are never allowed to assault 1st turn from those Battlewagonz, thereby making it a giant, expensive and USELESS Formation. Gimmicky? yes. Competitive? No.
Then GW realized that they had fethed the orks royally. No Decurion style formation, no real units worth a damn compared to the top tier codexs so what did they do? They re-released the exact same Waaagh Supplement but added in the Orkurion (Which is tied with IG for WORST decurion style formation) and a bunch of other equally useless formations and detachments.
And now, finally, GW gave us another new flyer! I think Orks have probably the most or second most flyers of any faction outside of FW. And all of them are terrible. Teasing us with a new flyer that might be worth taking. Finally we might have a unit that can help our completely underwhelming codex. Nope, its an even more expensive flyer then we currently have, its AV10/10/10. And best of all, it has blast weapons so if it jinks to stay alive (you know AV10 and all) it can't FIRE ITS WEAPON!
So with all of that being done to the Army that I have invested hundreds of hours into and god knows how much money I am officially Boycotting Games-Workshop and ALL of their stores and products. I am still going to play, I am still going to buy new models, just never from GW or stores that sell their products. I am now going to waste my money on chinese knock offs, Ebayers who are selling at deep discounts and from you dakkanauts who have had enough of GW completely and are liquidating your armies.
Final thoughts? Feth GW and specifically which ever snotling is in charge of writing Ork rules.
Desubot wrote: Go play Spartan games stuff. its relatively cheap to start and a ton of fun.
I have spent to much time and money on my Ork army to just up and leave the community. I am just going to Boycott Games-Workshop products and I am going to actively encourage every player I meet to do the same. I am currently looking for some 3rd Party websites to order from, failing that, all future purchases will be from Dakka's trading forum and Ebay. I will not give a single Dollar to GW ever again.
Seriously, everyone's known for awhile Orks are not competitive. The new Ork flyer would be no different. You play Orks or CSM or DEldar or Guard because you like them, not because they're actually competitive. You play SM, Necrons, Eldar, or Tau if you want to be competitive.
Desubot wrote: Go play Spartan games stuff. its relatively cheap to start and a ton of fun.
I have spent to much time and money on my Ork army to just up and leave the community. I am just going to Boycott Games-Workshop products and I am going to actively encourage every player I meet to do the same. I am currently looking for some 3rd Party websites to order from, failing that, all future purchases will be from Dakka's trading forum and Ebay. I will not give a single Dollar to GW ever again.
So....you're still gonna play the game, just talk gak about it?
There's nothing stoping you from playing with friends and ignoring new rules and revisions.
It sucks but just weather it out with people who are happy to accommodate the fairer ruling.
A lot of us have been where you are now - and the wheel turns. I figure 40k will sooner or later finally morph into a version of the game it inspired (Age of Sigmar), making the question of tightly written, balanced tournament rules as explicitly moot as they have always been implicitly. At that point, a great deal of people are going to enjoy 40k a lot more. You may be one of them. I know I will be!
Seriously, everyone's known for awhile Orks are not competitive. The new Ork flyer would be no different. You play Orks or CSM or DEldar or Guard because you like them, not because they're actually competitive. You play SM, Necrons, Eldar, or Tau if you want to be competitive.
Desubot wrote: Go play Spartan games stuff. its relatively cheap to start and a ton of fun.
I have spent to much time and money on my Ork army to just up and leave the community. I am just going to Boycott Games-Workshop products and I am going to actively encourage every player I meet to do the same. I am currently looking for some 3rd Party websites to order from, failing that, all future purchases will be from Dakka's trading forum and Ebay. I will not give a single Dollar to GW ever again.
So....you're still gonna play the game, just talk gak about it?
So it is to much to hope that GW can at least make an attempt to balance the game out and give orks a fighting chance against other factions?
So if I want to be competitive I have to play one of four factions, anything else and it is my own fault because I want to play an army that I like?
And yes, I am still going to play the game and I am going to talk a massive amount of GAK about GW in general and their fethtastic rules specifically.
Play other games. X-wing is cheap to start, cheap to expand, incredibly simple, and tactically deep while being well balanced. Easy to convince friends to get in as well because of the pre-painted models.
I'll also echo Spartan's offerings as being well done games with increasingly excellent miniatures.
Finally, plenty of GW's old Specialist Games are free to download and cheap to play with either proxies or looting Ebay/the swapshop. BFG is a great example, as I'm currently convincing a group of people to shift some attention from 40k (which we all had a lot of issues with) to BFG.
Turn back the clock and go to 5th ed . Orks were great in 4th and 5th. Between the 5th codex and Imperial Armour 8 you can find a use for just about any model in the current line.
Seriously, everyone's known for awhile Orks are not competitive. The new Ork flyer would be no different. You play Orks or CSM or DEldar or Guard because you like them, not because they're actually competitive. You play SM, Necrons, Eldar, or Tau if you want to be competitive.
Desubot wrote: Go play Spartan games stuff. its relatively cheap to start and a ton of fun.
I have spent to much time and money on my Ork army to just up and leave the community. I am just going to Boycott Games-Workshop products and I am going to actively encourage every player I meet to do the same. I am currently looking for some 3rd Party websites to order from, failing that, all future purchases will be from Dakka's trading forum and Ebay. I will not give a single Dollar to GW ever again.
So....you're still gonna play the game, just talk gak about it?
So it is to much to hope that GW can at least make an attempt to balance the game out and give orks a fighting chance against other factions?
The bad rules of 40k have been known for years, even back into early 6th. Hoping they'll balance the game and give Orks a better chance? Yep, misguided. Orks are there to be bullied by Space Marines, same with CSM.
So if I want to be competitive I have to play one of four factions, anything else and it is my own fault because I want to play an army that I like?
Basically. If you find a casual setting, you'll be fine, but if you want to go to ITC Tournaments or the like, you'll need to bring competitive lists.
And yes, I am still going to play the game and I am going to talk a massive amount of GAK about GW in general and their fethtastic rules specifically.
Erm, kay. I think you'd have a better time selling your stuff and going to X-Wing or Warma/Hordes, but you do you.
Semper, that feel is pretty widespread ive bought nothing from GW in well over a year, and nothing substantial in probably 3 years. I would highly suggest looking into games like Dropzone Commander or Xwing.
Manchu wrote: A lot of us have been where you are now - and the wheel turns. I figure 40k will sooner or later finally morph into a version of the game it inspired (Age of Sigmar), making the question of tightly written, balanced tournament rules as explicitly moot as they have always been implicitly. At that point, a great deal of people are going to enjoy 40k a lot more. You may be one of them. I know I will be!
40k is pretty much already there, which is the problem for many. AoS has hardly seen widespread success and acceptance relative to the old WHFB. For my own meta, events that routinely drew 18-24 in 4E and 5E now struggle to get half a dozen people, the last event had 4 people show up, while AoS never took off, sales have been nonexistent and nobody is showing up to play according to my FLGS. Obviously anecdotal, but seems to not be uncommon.
Having a balanced ruleset has zero downside for the fluff/scenario player, and has great advantages for competitive, pickup, and beginner play.
TL;DR 40k is already very close to AoS, and that seems to be the problem, not the solution.
Vaktathi wrote: Semper, that feel is pretty widespread ive bought nothing from GW in well over a year, and nothing substantial in probably 3 years. I would highly suggest looking into games like Dropzone Commander or Xwing.
Manchu wrote: A lot of us have been where you are now - and the wheel turns. I figure 40k will sooner or later finally morph into a version of the game it inspired (Age of Sigmar), making the question of tightly written, balanced tournament rules as explicitly moot as they have always been implicitly. At that point, a great deal of people are going to enjoy 40k a lot more. You may be one of them. I know I will be!
40k is pretty much already there, which is the problem for many. AoS has hardly seen widespread success and acceptance relative to the old WHFB. For my own meta, events that routinely drew 18-24 in 4E and 5E now struggle to get half a dozen people, the last event had 4 people show up, while AoS never took off, sales have been nonexistent and nobody is showing up to play according to my FLGS. Obviously anecdotal, but seems to not be uncommon.
Having a balanced ruleset has zero downside for the fluff/scenario player, and has great advantages for competitive, pickup, and beginner play.
TL;DR 40k is already very close to AoS, and that seems to be the problem, not the solution.
I hate to sound like TFG complaining about the super power armies but....yeah. I know a number of Ork Players who have quit the hobby entirely (They sold me a number of models that I now own) I know a few IG and Chaos guys who just gave up and switched to either a new hobby or gave up on Wargaming in general. I also know of a Tyranid player who got so ticked off at GW that he just stopped playing entirely and routinely showed up to events just to convince players to switch to bolt action.
What I don't see happening is Marine, Eldar, Tau and Necron players giving up on the hobby. I just don't understand how GW can't figure this out. They lose players when they make the game imbalanced towards a few factions and nerf the others into the ground.
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DarknessEternal wrote: Why are you still here on the GW-centric forum if you're "done" with them.
Answer: You're not done. You just want to whine.
meaning you haven't bothered to read anything I posted, but thanks for the insightful comment. I am assuming your primary army is Space Elves, Marines or Tau.
Nobody knows why GW does what it does, there seems to be little business reasoning behind many of their decisions and even less game design thought behind them.
DarknessEternal wrote: Why are you still here on the GW-centric forum if you're "done" with them.
Answer: You're not done. You just want to whine.
people can still like the game universe and previous editions of the game even if they've had it with GW. Part of the reason for forums like this is for peopple to discuss and vent their frustrations with the community as a whole..
Here's my question on the Wazbomb: Why, WHY would I EVER want one of these things when, RIGHT OVER HERE in the SAME FREAKING KIT we have the Blitza bommer, which is:
1) 45 points(?) cheaper
2) has MORE firepower (a TL supa-shoota and BS3 big shoota >>>>> one BS ONE shot at S4+D6 AP1, and a S7AP2 large blast that only scatters 1d6 >>> S8AP2 TL small blast 99.9999% of the time)
3) Exactly the same defensive stats, minus the KFF..which....why should I care? why do I want a 5++ on a plane with jink anyway?
the_scotsman wrote: Here's my question on the Wazbomb: Why, WHY would I EVER want one of these things when, RIGHT OVER HERE in the SAME FREAKING KIT we have the Blitza bommer, which is:
1) 45 points(?) cheaper
2) has MORE firepower (a TL supa-shoota and BS3 big shoota >>>>> one BS ONE shot at S4+D6 AP1, and a S7AP2 large blast that only scatters 1d6 >>> S8AP2 TL small blast 99.9999% of the time)
3) Exactly the same defensive stats, minus the KFF..which....why should I care? why do I want a 5++ on a plane with jink anyway?
For funzies. Look, it's pretty damn obvious Ork players don't get rules to be good, they get fun fluffy rules. It's the same reason Mad Dok has a 6+ FNP but gives himself and his unit a 5+
the_scotsman wrote: Here's my question on the Wazbomb: Why, WHY would I EVER want one of these things when, RIGHT OVER HERE in the SAME FREAKING KIT we have the Blitza bommer, which is:
1) 45 points(?) cheaper
2) has MORE firepower (a TL supa-shoota and BS3 big shoota >>>>> one BS ONE shot at S4+D6 AP1, and a S7AP2 large blast that only scatters 1d6 >>> S8AP2 TL small blast 99.9999% of the time)
3) Exactly the same defensive stats, minus the KFF..which....why should I care? why do I want a 5++ on a plane with jink anyway?
It is the same problem for almost every single Ork release this edition. Great idea, great model, complete lack of rules to flesh out the model, usually followed by a complete lack of dakka.
The best unit in the entire ork codex ( in my opinion) for shooting is the Mek Gun. for like 40pts you can have a S8 AP2 Range 36 small blast weapon that is BS3 (Grots) The only downside to the Mek Gun? Leadership, they don't even benefit from the craptastic mob rule so unless you put a character in that unit with a decent LD value then as soon as those grots lose 25% you can kiss that unit good bye.
And even with that I am still convinced that GW fethed up and accidentally gave us a good unit, im sure those were meant for SM or Eldar but the rules writers got confused.
I yet await the Age of Horus, when competitiveness is no longer the mark of what armies see the table, when my CSM can leave their warpsleep to frolic with the Orks once more, and I can spend all the moneys assembling the ridiculous Haemonculus coven I've wanted all these years ...
... but until then, I'll keep enjoying the feth out of rules systems produced by Mantic, Wyrd and Corvus Belli
Boss Salvage wrote: I yet await the Age of Horus, when competitiveness is no longer the mark of what armies see the table, when my CSM can leave their warpsleep to frolic with the Orks once more, and I can spend all the moneys assembling the ridiculous Haemonculus coven I've wanted all these years ...
... but until then, I'll keep enjoying the feth out of rules systems produced by Mantic, Wyrd and Corvus Belli
- Salvage
pretty much this. at this point bring on age of whatever. it cant be worse. and money paws dont scare me. everyone in my area has stopped playing. if even 2 or 3 people were to get into a new version, thats better than the current zero
I don't think that they'll notice your absence.
I'm not sure what is worse though... someone complaining about how crappy the rules are and continuing to play or someone who is going to go and boycott something but just not from specific sources.
you do realize they still get your money right?
the_scotsman wrote: Here's my question on the Wazbomb: Why, WHY would I EVER want one of these things when, RIGHT OVER HERE in the SAME FREAKING KIT we have the Blitza bommer, which is:
1) 45 points(?) cheaper
2) has MORE firepower (a TL supa-shoota and BS3 big shoota >>>>> one BS ONE shot at S4+D6 AP1, and a S7AP2 large blast that only scatters 1d6 >>> S8AP2 TL small blast 99.9999% of the time)
3) Exactly the same defensive stats, minus the KFF..which....why should I care? why do I want a 5++ on a plane with jink anyway?
First your not looking at the whole picture.
The new wing leader abilities can grant +1 S to all weapons or +1 shots to all weapons. Now add one of those to the wazbom. 2 twin linked kmk shots (or 2 teleport blasta shots) , 2 smasha gun shots , and 4 twin linked suppa shoota shots. Or S9 kmk (or teleport blasta) and S4+1+1d6 smasha gun and S7 suppa shoota.
Also there is a formation that is a Wazbom and 3 other flyers that they all get a 3++ in a certian pattern and interceptor.
Also the kff extends 6" around the flyer protecting other units.
You can just look at a unit and say it's garbage untill you see how it gets to interact with other units and in formations/patterns. Or before you even play with the unit.
Also if a blitz bomber jinks ot can't drop a bomb so the Wazbom has the option not to jink and still get some sort of save, the bomber does not.
usernamesareannoying wrote: I don't think that they'll notice your absence.
I'm not sure what is worse though... someone complaining about how crappy the rules are and continuing to play or someone who is going to go and boycott something but just not from specific sources.
you do realize they still get your money right?
Reasonably sure if I find a good Chinese or other 3rd party then GW won't be getting a Penny from me. And GW can sue those companies all they want, most are in countries that just tell them to go feth themselves.
As far as buying used? well that really depends on what that person is doing with the money. A quick glance at the Dakka store and you can see a lot of people are getting out of the hobby and switching to another game. Or they are getting rid of their armies to go buy the new flavor of the month. Meaning the sales for the Ork army will go down, granted as you mentioned I am but 1 person, but I intend to encourage as many people as I can to stop buying GW products. Will I be effective? no, GW won't even notice, and even if they did notice they wouldn't care because if you look at their market value, it has gone down every year for a number of years and they still don't seem to give a flying feth about the community.
The game is not intended to be balanced nor is it supposed to a competition between 2 players each trying to win. It's intended for 2 miniature collectors to get together and tell a story using their miniatures. Now, it wouldn't be a very good story if the badguys/gribblies/faceless mooks won so those armies have been designed to be worse than the "hero" armies.
You just gotta accept that 40k is not a wargame. It's storytime. And the story's not about Orks. If you want to play the role of the winner, then play a winner faction.
the_scotsman wrote: Here's my question on the Wazbomb: Why, WHY would I EVER want one of these things when, RIGHT OVER HERE in the SAME FREAKING KIT we have the Blitza bommer, which is:
1) 45 points(?) cheaper
2) has MORE firepower (a TL supa-shoota and BS3 big shoota >>>>> one BS ONE shot at S4+D6 AP1, and a S7AP2 large blast that only scatters 1d6 >>> S8AP2 TL small blast 99.9999% of the time)
3) Exactly the same defensive stats, minus the KFF..which....why should I care? why do I want a 5++ on a plane with jink anyway?
First your not looking at the whole picture.
The new wing leader abilities can grant +1 S to all weapons or +1 shots to all weapons. Now add one of those to the wazbom. 2 twin linked kmk shots (or 2 teleport blasta shots) , 2 smasha gun shots , and 4 twin linked suppa shoota shots. Or S9 kmk (or teleport blasta) and S4+1+1d6 smasha gun and S7 suppa shoota.
Also there is a formation that is a Wazbom and 3 other flyers that they all get a 3++ in a certian pattern and interceptor.
Also the kff extends 6" around the flyer protecting other units.
You can just look at a unit and say it's garbage untill you see how it gets to interact with other units and in formations/patterns. Or before you even play with the unit.
+1 S and +1 shots per gun is a very nice bonus, but you are also failing to notice that you are required to take a FORMATION to get that bonus. Pretty sure most of those formations require 3 or more flyers. So Your paying for 3 flyers to make 1 of them useful. Furthermore 3 Ork flyers with this new one added in will cost you somewhere around 400pts And here is the best part. They are all AV10 all around. So if you fight against any army with AA or an army that has a good RoF you will lose those 400pts rather quickly. 1 unit of ML Devestators by itself can take down an Ork flyer a turn with slightly above average rolling. Hell the Ork Traktor Kannon will eat that formation, the entire formation, in 2 turns max.
Not a single Ork Flyer is currently worth its points. This new one is just the biggest offender atm.
usernamesareannoying wrote: I don't think that they'll notice your absence.
I'm not sure what is worse though... someone complaining about how crappy the rules are and continuing to play or someone who is going to go and boycott something but just not from specific sources.
you do realize they still get your money right?
Reasonably sure if I find a good Chinese or other 3rd party then GW won't be getting a Penny from me. And GW can sue those companies all they want, most are in countries that just tell them to go feth themselves.
As far as buying used? well that really depends on what that person is doing with the money. A quick glance at the Dakka store and you can see a lot of people are getting out of the hobby and switching to another game. Or they are getting rid of their armies to go buy the new flavor of the month. Meaning the sales for the Ork army will go down, granted as you mentioned I am but 1 person, but I intend to encourage as many people as I can to stop buying GW products. Will I be effective? no, GW won't even notice, and even if they did notice they wouldn't care because if you look at their market value, it has gone down every year for a number of years and they still don't seem to give a flying feth about the community.
Except they are showing signs they do care, hence the FAQS and asking the community what they think.
Except they are showing signs they do care, hence the FAQS and asking the community what they think.
Yeah, which is a very nice way of saying "we appreciate your input, but go feth yourself". That is until they actually start enacting some change to the game that they are asking about.
I started with Dark Angels near the beginning of 3rd/end of 2nd. 3rd edition was great. Then they needed us in 4th and 5th... we had the worst codex ever. 6th we got a good update and became a lot better with more options. 7th is just ok, unless you play ravenwing or green wing (which are now super good).
I will always keep my dark angels because
#1 - I like the fluff, colors, symbols, etc
#2 - spent alot of time and money on them
#3 - I like to display and collect minis too, esp if they have history
#4 - editions and rules change alot, there will be ups and downs
Just remember #4. I have been through 6 codex books, and 6 editions in the past 17 years. We were the worst army from 4th to 6th edition, which was many years, and most people knew it. The orcs have been bland and non competaive (mostly due to the formation balance as you eluded to with the decurion comment).
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: The game is not intended to be balanced nor is it supposed to a competition between 2 players each trying to win. It's intended for 2 miniature collectors to get together and tell a story using their miniatures. Now, it wouldn't be a very good story if the badguys/gribblies/faceless mooks won so those armies have been designed to be worse than the "hero" armies.
You just gotta accept that 40k is not a wargame. It's storytime. And the story's not about Orks. If you want to play the role of the winner, then play a winner faction.
Ah, yes, the wonderful story of the Wraithknight who could dodge missiles simply by dipping his toe in some ruins. Maybe we can spin an epic yarn about the time Chief Librarian Tigrius didn't know what powers he could harness right up until the moment he got to the battlefield. Oh, and let's not forget the mighty tale of Battle of Plasticia Rockkus where a bunch of Tau Riptides blew up a bunch of Imperial Guard soldiers and vehicles.
40k isn't good for storytime or competitive gaming. It's not really good for... anything.
usernamesareannoying wrote: I don't think that they'll notice your absence.
I'm not sure what is worse though... someone complaining about how crappy the rules are and continuing to play or someone who is going to go and boycott something but just not from specific sources.
you do realize they still get your money right?
if he DID buy from chinese recasters they wouldnt see a dime of that money. and you can only "not miss" so many people before it affects you. The problem is GW has had alot of those people they wont miss in the last 5-10 years. and while there have been positives since roundtree took over for sink em kirby, it may be a case of to little too late if it does not turn around soon.
SemperMortis wrote: I have spent to much time and money on my Ork army to just up and leave the community. I am just going to Boycott Games-Workshop products and I am going to actively encourage every player I meet to do the same.
So you're going to continue as part of the community but spread negativity everywhere you go.
SemperMortis wrote: I have spent to much time and money on my Ork army to just up and leave the community. I am just going to Boycott Games-Workshop products and I am going to actively encourage every player I meet to do the same.
So you're going to continue as part of the community but spread negativity everywhere you go.
SemperMortis wrote: I have spent to much time and money on my Ork army to just up and leave the community. I am just going to Boycott Games-Workshop products and I am going to actively encourage every player I meet to do the same.
So you're going to continue as part of the community but spread negativity everywhere you go.
Sounds like a great plan.
One can be part of the WARGAMING community (of which GW is part of) without playing GW games.
GW is finally waking up. They have a LOT of Kirby-turds to clean up before they can be a decent company. I would recommend sticking around for a while...just in case orks get their 7.5 book.
But if you're determined to flounce, go out with style. Send Roundtree a letter (not an email.) He IS a player, supposedly. Make it a good one. There is just the tiniest chance that your input may not fall on deaf ears.
the_scotsman wrote: Here's my question on the Wazbomb: Why, WHY would I EVER want one of these things when, RIGHT OVER HERE in the SAME FREAKING KIT we have the Blitza bommer, which is:
1) 45 points(?) cheaper
2) has MORE firepower (a TL supa-shoota and BS3 big shoota >>>>> one BS ONE shot at S4+D6 AP1, and a S7AP2 large blast that only scatters 1d6 >>> S8AP2 TL small blast 99.9999% of the time)
3) Exactly the same defensive stats, minus the KFF..which....why should I care? why do I want a 5++ on a plane with jink anyway?
First your not looking at the whole picture.
The new wing leader abilities can grant +1 S to all weapons or +1 shots to all weapons. Now add one of those to the wazbom. 2 twin linked kmk shots (or 2 teleport blasta shots) , 2 smasha gun shots , and 4 twin linked suppa shoota shots. Or S9 kmk (or teleport blasta) and S4+1+1d6 smasha gun and S7 suppa shoota.
Also there is a formation that is a Wazbom and 3 other flyers that they all get a 3++ in a certian pattern and interceptor.
Also the kff extends 6" around the flyer protecting other units.
You can just look at a unit and say it's garbage untill you see how it gets to interact with other units and in formations/patterns. Or before you even play with the unit.
+1 S and +1 shots per gun is a very nice bonus, but you are also failing to notice that you are required to take a FORMATION to get that bonus. Pretty sure most of those formations require 3 or more flyers. So Your paying for 3 flyers to make 1 of them useful. Furthermore 3 Ork flyers with this new one added in will cost you somewhere around 400pts And here is the best part. They are all AV10 all around. So if you fight against any army with AA or an army that has a good RoF you will lose those 400pts rather quickly. 1 unit of ML Devestators by itself can take down an Ork flyer a turn with slightly above average rolling. Hell the Ork Traktor Kannon will eat that formation, the entire formation, in 2 turns max.
Not a single Ork Flyer is currently worth its points. This new one is just the biggest offender atm.
You don't need the formation to be a wing leader, wings are 1-3 flyers each wing gets a wing leader with a bonus.
A unit of devs is not killing a flyer with a 3++ in a turn. Either is a Traktor kannon. 4 missile flakk shots hits 3 time, of those 3, 2 will glance or pen, with a 3++ Your lucky if one gets through. Not sure how a unit of devs takes a flyer out a turn.
Unless an army has a ton of skyfire that's high S, they will have a hard time dealing with 3++ flyers.
Also if you have a flyer and your opponent does not they get -1 to reserve rolls , goes to a -2 if you have the flyer detachment. Stack that on the -1 on strategic table, giving a reserve style army a -3 to reserve rolls could cripple them.
Darth_Mox wrote:
He never said he was done with Forge World...
They're one and the same.
Grimtuff wrote:
One can be part of the WARGAMING community (of which GW is part of) without playing GW games.
He said that he was going to continue playing 40K whilst telling everyone he could not to support GW.
If he had said that he was going to quit GW and find a new game to support then that's great. Continuing to play 40K whilst being a pit of negativity for everyone around him is quite different. We've already got one Martel...
Again, just because someone is done with GW or the curent edition of the game ir whatever doesnt mean they cant stick around and enjoy the background universe or discuss other aspects, especially given that most people dont get in more than a handful of games a year
If I played for competition I wouldn't repeatedly fight the same Tau list with my subpar SM lists time after time. I get that Orks are bad, don't get me wrong, but they are the most random army we have.
Sir, may I interest you in SAGA / Frostgrave / Ronin / Lion Rampant? Good rules, nice models, reasonable prices and none of this constant 'update' nonsense meaning new books and supplements being bought every other week.
You play Orks or CSM or DEldar or Guard because you like them, not because they're actually competitive. You play SM, Necrons, Eldar, or Tau if you want to be competitive.
You just listed my forces.... I wish they were competitive
hobojebus wrote: It happens to us all, go play other better cheaper games and leave GW to rot.
Unless you play Space Elves, Space Marines or Tau. Maybe Necrons as well.
Nah, I played marines and elves and still left the game. The codices don't mean squat when the rules are crap to start with.
Good luck with your journey away from GW. You've taken your first step into a wider hobby ( GW are a part of the wider wargaming hobby, not a hobby unto themselves)
Or, you could wait until they release the ork specific FAQ and see what changes/ eratta are made. You've never been able to assault from scout, the formation is there to get you into prime second turn assault range/ deffrolla threat.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Or, you could wait until they release the ork specific FAQ and see what changes/ eratta are made. You've never been able to assault from scout, the formation is there to get you into prime second turn assault range/ deffrolla threat.
And your not allowed to assault from deep strike or from outflanking and yet a number of armies have access to those very same abilities.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Or, you could wait until they release the ork specific FAQ and see what changes/ eratta are made. You've never been able to assault from scout, the formation is there to get you into prime second turn assault range/ deffrolla threat.
And your not allowed to assault from deep strike or from outflanking and yet a number of armies have access to those very same abilities.
maybe but it's still p[retty uncommon and the formations that allow it are considered some of the most powerful in the game
Killing off CSM and Tyranids in a row almost got me quitting that game for good . AdMech-fancodices were the solution. For a while. But that screaming mess, that 40k became since 7th edition did it. I play 40k about 1-2 times a year now. With a 30k-army. The rest of the time I play 30k only, because its much more fun. WFB is pretty much dead here. AoS(GWs folly) was dead from the headstart here. Because GW decided to piss off every fething WFB-player here with first ET and than AoS. KoW became a thing. Firestorm Armada....not so much, sadly.
They have to get it together and don`t write a personel game for Jervis, but for the customers, dammit. FW can do it. Why the heck GW can`t? Its just bonkers.
40k needs a restart, like with the 3rd edition. FaQ-ing only will not rescue that pile.
And yeah. I can turn the game for our new Tau to a freaking nightmare with the Ordo Reductor. But why should I? I want a fun and neat game, not driving him away.
What the hell, we have more and more houserules and restrictions here now than ever before, regarding 40k. 30k needs none.
Sorry for the rant, but the frustration needs to go somewhere.
As much as I can sympathize with wanting a more functional Ork codex, in all fairness, I'm not at all upset about not allowing first turn charges from Scouting battlewagons, that's a definite "if you go first you auto-win the game" ability against many armies.
I'd much prefer to see GW cut out the grossly overpowered crap than spread it around more.
Why? Tau and Eldar are competitive, but no one wants to play against us anymore because of our "OP" books, so our armies gather dust on shelves right alongside the bad, unplayable ones. What good does being competitive do you when you're not even "allowed" to play the game anymore?
Being a top-tier army is a fething curse, just as bad as being bottom-tier. Maybe even worse, because at least with a bottom-tier army you can still participate. Hardly anyone would turn down a game with Orks or Tyranids like they would Tau or Eldar.
JimOnMars wrote: GW is finally waking up. They have a LOT of Kirby-turds to clean up before they can be a decent company. I would recommend sticking around for a while...just in case orks get their 7.5 book.
But if you're determined to flounce, go out with style. Send Roundtree a letter (not an email.) He IS a player, supposedly. Make it a good one. There is just the tiniest chance that your input may not fall on deaf ears.
I've sent an email regarding the Ork Orkurion update and my disappointment in it. Whether or not my ideas were passed down to the design team I don't know, but I did read somewhere they they know the Ork Codex is bad, but they didn't know the direction they wanted it to go in.
JimOnMars wrote: GW is finally waking up. They have a LOT of Kirby-turds to clean up before they can be a decent company. I would recommend sticking around for a while...just in case orks get their 7.5 book.
But if you're determined to flounce, go out with style. Send Roundtree a letter (not an email.) He IS a player, supposedly. Make it a good one. There is just the tiniest chance that your input may not fall on deaf ears.
I've sent an email regarding the Ork Orkurion update and my disappointment in it. Whether or not my ideas were passed down to the design team I don't know, but I did read somewhere they they know the Ork Codex is bad, but they didn't know the direction they wanted it to go in.
I read that too about their understanding of orks. It was on Faet and the whole post was a rumour at best. To the OP I would say every ork player shares your pain. Things seem to be changing behind the scenes at GW. I suggest you wait and see cos Orks are da best at being da worst so it can only get better from here (or stay the same)
I play at max 1500 points in my group so orks are really barely ok at <1k and tend to suck everywhere else until you get to about 2k where their formations can have a basic synergy. The ironic worst part is that orks take a lot of time to build paint and play by dint of the number of models and are also probably joint worst for real world price per point on the field. Why would anyone start collecting them now?
one problem is, Orks as a whole are at their core supposed to be a very light hearted kitbash friendly race etc. but GW's moving away from that style in general so they're in an oddplace.
now me if I was GW I'd do a digital suplement called "an incomplete loota's guide" that basicly provided stats for a number of "common looted vehicle types as well as guide lines for looting other stuff" so suddenly Orks would have a wide set of rules for new toys. Looted Lemen russes, looted Land Raiders, Looted Chimeras etc.
I'd also introduce a new bit sprue called the "ork looter sprue" that can be ordered on the website. ideally the goal would be to expand ork options and move vehicles.
Play other non GW games and write your orks off as a loss. Don't waste your time and energy complaining about GW while playing 40k, it's just not going to make things better. Just move on and try other non GW games, you will be a lot happier of a person.
I feel your pain. Everyone arrives at that point for some reason. At least you don't play Sisters, Dark Eldar and Chaos Marines like I do.
The amount of abuse my armies have taken is absurd. And I actually quit 40K for Fantasy for the last 7 years basically to get into something I loved. But then they axed that too and now I'm left with this half baked garbage called AOS.
I basically just collect now. GW basically seems to hate everything I love in this universe and have directly destroyed or ignored all the things that I want.
What exactly were you expecting from this thread? Sympathy? Shows of support? Uproars of agreement followed by similar pledges of boycotting GW?
You want to boycott GW because they have no apparent interest in balancing the army you invested in any time soon? Fine, go ahead; but how does that concern us?
Plus the way I see it is that Orks are not meant to be competitive. Orks are meant to be fun with hilarious fluff who say "Dakka Dakka" to make their stubbers shoot. Play for fun and not for competitive play, and I'll guarantee you'll have a better time (regardless of what army you play). Need more incentive/help? House rule it. The rules are a guideline, not law.
Why? Tau and Eldar are competitive, but no one wants to play against us anymore because of our "OP" books, so our armies gather dust on shelves right alongside the bad, unplayable ones. What good does being competitive do you when you're not even "allowed" to play the game anymore?
Being a top-tier army is a fething curse, just as bad as being bottom-tier. Maybe even worse, because at least with a bottom-tier army you can still participate. Hardly anyone would turn down a game with Orks or Tyranids like they would Tau or Eldar.
There is almost no point in playing those armies with BA. I do it to give people games, but no one gets anything out of it. And I have forfeited two of my last five games because I couldn't sit through it.
What exactly were you expecting from this thread? Sympathy? Shows of support? Uproars of agreement followed by similar pledges of boycotting GW?
You want to boycott GW because they have no apparent interest in balancing the army you invested in any time soon? Fine, go ahead; but how does that concern us?
Plus the way I see it is that Orks are not meant to be competitive. Orks are meant to be fun with hilarious fluff who say "Dakka Dakka" to make their stubbers shoot. Play for fun and not for competitive play, and I'll guarantee you'll have a better time (regardless of what army you play). Need more incentive/help? House rule it. The rules are a guideline, not law.
Can we get a "Martel732 complaining about BA in a non-BA related thread" bingo square please?
Grumble, But this is a "Rage/somewhat boycott GW but not really because I still need the rules but will only buy 3rd party stuff or trade" thread. He's still playing despite the abuse Orks have gotten.
Normally I would lament along with you OP on this issue, as 40k has been such a mess these last few years. However, I am giving GW much more the benefit of the doubt on things lately with the improvements they've made. I'd at least tell you to wait until the book-specific FAQs are complete before giving up entirely, and even then I'd just move to holding pattern.
I can't really understand the "Orks/Chaos/DEldar are just uncompetitive" tone of some of these comments, they sound like they're coming from Imperial players who just want to be able to fight opponents that aren't the same faction. There is simply no good reason that any of these factions should be poor...there's really no reason *any* faction should be better than another, especially from GW's perspective (that of making the most money possible). Keeping things balanced benefits all player groups. And 40k as a game is frankly just too expensive to not be well put together.
I do see more light these days though. The FAQs are actually being put out as rough drafts, something I don't remember GWever doing. They've recognized that putting effort into the game itself is what is necessary to keep people buying, the mysterious class of wealthy collectors can only do so much to sustain the company.
All the talk about GW showing "glimpses of improvements" and making "clear steps into the right direction" is little more than the rambling of desperate hostage customers.
GW's (and by extent, 40k's) biggest issues at the moment, and for a long while:
1. Bad rules (an unsurmountable, inflated mess of bad rules as of recently).
2. Crazy expensive prices.
None of that has been solved, and it doesn't seem it will be solved anytime soon. The FAQs are nice, yes. But they won't fix the game. The game has deep issues that are only getting worse as time passes, with new formations, detachments, special rules, campaign books, supplements, etc. that make it virtually impossible of keeping track of the very game you're playing. It's insane. 40k needs a complete reboot from the ground, and there is no such a thing in the inmediate future.
As for the pricing, again the box bundles are fine, but the box bundles are mostly made up of kits that have been around for a while. The newer stuff just keeps getting more and more expensive. Look at the Wulfen... five plastic, humanoid-sized, infantry models for 45€. That's my favourite "Rountree is turning things around" signal.
I'm also sure that, if AoS had been the success GW expected, 40k would have gone down the same route by now.
Cling to hope all you want, the ship is sinking. I won't be completely sunk by tomorrow, nor by next month, buth both 40k and GW suffer from deep issues no quick patching is going to fix. And the sooner the game is discontinued, for the community to take over (as it happened to Epic, Bloodbowl and now Fantasy), the better. Because GW wouldn't be able to properly write a rules system even if their lives were at the stake.
Korinov wrote: All the talk about GW showing "glimpses of improvements" and making "clear steps into the right direction" is little more than the rambling of desperate hostage customers.
GW's (and by extent, 40k's) biggest issues at the moment, and for a long while:
1. Bad rules (an unsurmountable, inflated mess of bad rules as of recently).
2. Crazy expensive prices.
None of that has been solved, and it doesn't seem it will be solved anytime soon. The FAQs are nice, yes. But they won't fix the game. The game has deep issues that are only getting worse as time passes, with new formations, detachments, special rules, campaign books, supplements, etc. that make it virtually impossible of keeping track of the very game you're playing. It's insane. 40k needs a complete reboot from the ground, and there is no such a thing in the inmediate future.
As for the pricing, again the box bundles are fine, but the box bundles are mostly made up of kits that have been around for a while. The newer stuff just keeps getting more and more expensive. Look at the Wulfen... five plastic, humanoid-sized, infantry models for 45€. That's my favourite "Rountree is turning things around" signal.
I'm also sure that, if AoS had been the success GW expected, 40k would have gone down the same route by now.
Cling to hope all you want, the ship is sinking. I won't be completely sunk by tomorrow, nor by next month, buth both 40k and GW suffer from deep issues no quick patching is going to fix. And the sooner the game is discontinued, for the community to take over (as it happened to Epic, Bloodbowl and now Fantasy), the better. Because GW wouldn't be able to properly write a rules system even if their lives were at the stake.
You know for all your talk about how GW is an unplayable mess, how come around here the Only tabletop wargames that are played in Large amounts are GW games(40k and AOS) and X-wing. And it is the same just about everywhere in the country and some parts of the world I've been to.
Infinity, Mallafaux, Battletech and Warmahordes all have thier places and I encounter them In many places, but GW and X-Wing (Armada as well) dominate in number of players with the above mentioned stuff being relegated to side games.
Is 40K a tight Ruleset? No, not at all, are things unbalanced? Sure. But the game is still Playable, and fun for huge swathes of the wargaming community.
In the end, if you are mad about the state of your army and the fine thats great. Go ahead and Quit, take a break, or find a new game, no one should expect you to play a game you aren't having fun with after all.
But by the same token, it's not your place to start telling others not to play, how they should spend their money, or honestly Rant about how you should "stick it to the Great evil". All it does is make you sound like a bitter wannabe edge lord out to try and ruin others fun.
If you're done? Be done, and let others get on with their own lives.
Nobody is saying GW isn't still the 400lb gorilla in the room.
That said, it's not the 800lb gorilla it used to be. Its popularity relies a *lot* on inertia, you can see this in all sorts of things, where massive problems don't cause something to just die off instantly. It's a well known IP that many people are familiar with even if they don't play the game, and has been around since the 80's which cannot be said for things like Infinity, Firestorm Armada, Dropzone Commander, Malifaux, etc. That gives 40k a huge advantage.
Relative to what it used to be, GW has far more competition, and there are now some game stores that don't carry GW at all, something that would have been unheard of 10 years ago, and GW's non-40k stuff has been massively eclipsed by other games. Fantasy used to be the #2 tabletop game behind 40k, then it dropped behind Warmahordes ~2009, and became almost extinct by the time they launched AoS, which *is* extinct in many places.
The fact that X-wing is even being talked about as on par with GW's games shows that the market is changing.
For my piece, in my experience, 40k isn't the behemoth it once was. 40k tournaments are no longer by far the largest wargaming events or play nights anymore, it's fragmenting a lot depending on local store groups. My favorite LGS got 4 people to show up to the last 40k tournament, where once they routinely had 18-24 in 4E and 5E. Their Warmahordes event had 9 people show up. At the big store downtown, Infinity and Flames of War are no less popular than 40k at this point and receive almost equal shelf space. So yes, 40k is still a huge presence, but it's not the *only* presence that it used to be, nor even the majority presence it used to be everywhere. It's far more variable these days.
Finally, this is an internet discussion forum about a toy soldier game. If you don't like what someone has to say, you can just not enter the conversation, instead of telling them not to discuss the topic on an internet discussion board dedicated to the topic.
Chapter Master Angelos wrote: You know for all your talk about how GW is an unplayable mess, how come around here the Only tabletop wargames that are played in Large amounts are GW games(40k and AOS) and X-wing. And it is the same just about everywhere in the country and some parts of the world I've been to.
Infinity, Mallafaux, Battletech and Warmahordes all have thier places and I encounter them In many places, but GW and X-Wing (Armada as well) dominate in number of players with the above mentioned stuff being relegated to side games.
Either you provide some solid evidence to back such claims or it won't get past the usual "at my place we play X a lot so X must be doing amazing worldwide".
In the end, if you are mad about the state of your army and the fine thats great. Go ahead and Quit, take a break, or find a new game, no one should expect you to play a game you aren't having fun with after all.
I haven't quit yet because first, I'm not "mad" about the state of my main army (CSM suck, but I can live with that), and second, I have the luxury of playing in an environment where I don't mind losing, because I still have fun.
If I were to rely on pick-up games, I would have never bothered with starting to play 40k in the first place.
But by the same token, it's not your place to start telling others not to play, how they should spend their money, or honestly Rant about how you should "stick it to the Great evil". All it does is make you sound like a bitter wannabe edge lord out to try and ruin others fun.
I have not done that in the slightest.
I've just stated that the "GW has learnt from their mistakes" and "GW is finally going back to the good old ways" claims are self-deluded bullgak. The rules are not improving (FAQs are band aids to a wide open and festering gut), prices keep going higher.
People are so desperate to be thrown a bone after so many years of neglect, disrespect and insult, that some will accept anything as a sign that "things are finally changing". They aren't. At least not in any substantial way.
Well, from my neck of the woods - GW appears to have a big following if you look at how many people have forces.
When you look at who's buying new things for their forces, it starts to tell a different story - there are few new kits being bought, fewer new forces being started and a lot of the 'new' stuff is actually kit-bashed and proxied using non-GW kits.
Many of the GW players have been more frequently seen playing X-Wing (which I dislike, but then, I dislike Star Wars due to everyone always going on about it and it's cultural saturation) and other more indy games such as SAGA.
Chipping in for the lulz: 4E and 5E 40k used to be rather popular in my area, along with the Fantasy editions at the time. However, since then, not only have players been dropping out due to high prices and poorly written and imbalanced rules, but no new recruits have been found either.
And since 40k is often the first point of contact that many have with wargaming, this has put the potential recruits off wargaming entirely in my area.
I have only three people who are even vaguely into the idea of wargaming and miniature creation. One of them is me, another is a GW fan who refuses to play anything that isn't strictly GW produce (won't allow houserules or converted models), and the other is a guy who likes building and painting Tau, but can't stand the tedium of spending hours on end staring at rulebooks and having half your gametime spent doing nothing.
I think more people are interested in a 40k video game (like Space Marine or Dawn of War) than they are in the table-top game. Who can blame them? A video game is vastly cheaper, often better-written (note that GW isn't actually involved in this process...), and often offers something different every time you play it.
Does the TT game do this? No, not really.
At this point, the only thing that interests me in the slightest in 40K is the background. The TT game is dead to me.
Selym wrote: Chipping in for the lulz: 4E and 5E 40k used to be rather popular in my area, along with the Fantasy editions at the time. However, since then, not only have players been dropping out due to high prices and poorly written and imbalanced rules, but no new recruits have been found either.
This is exactly my experience. My local group has few new recruits, and of those, most are people who played before but moved to the area recently, we've had one truly *new* person actually stick around in the last ~18 months or so (who got in with Eldar, his brother who got in with Orks quickly tired and stopped showing up). Most of the routine faces are those that have been playing since 5E or earlier, while Fantasy/AoS is entirely dead aside from a couple people who show up once a month or so to play 7th.
One more thing, OP...If you play orks, you can get a good game from AS, BA, CSM, DE, IG, GK, SW & Nids. Some are harder than others for orks, but you can beat all of these armies a lot of the time. If you always lose to these armies, then....l2p?
Selym wrote: Chipping in for the lulz: 4E and 5E 40k used to be rather popular in my area, along with the Fantasy editions at the time. However, since then, not only have players been dropping out due to high prices and poorly written and imbalanced rules, but no new recruits have been found either.
And since 40k is often the first point of contact that many have with wargaming, this has put the potential recruits off wargaming entirely in my area.
I have only three people who are even vaguely into the idea of wargaming and miniature creation. One of them is me, another is a GW fan who refuses to play anything that isn't strictly GW produce (won't allow houserules or converted models), and the other is a guy who likes building and painting Tau, but can't stand the tedium of spending hours on end staring at rulebooks and having half your gametime spent doing nothing.
Doesn't allow conversions? What kool aid is this guy drinking to think that? GW themselves actively encourage converting models.
You should tell that to the last three GW managers I've met. I once got threatened with a store ban for using blu-tac as a cheap moulding material on a nurgle dreadnought.
JimOnMars wrote: One more thing, OP...If you play orks, you can get a good game from AS, BA, CSM, DE, IG, GK, SW & Nids. Some are harder than others for orks, but you can beat all of these armies a lot of the time. If you always lose to these armies, then....l2p?
even among the power armies some arent that bad in a friendly setting. space marines have some insane power builds, but there are a lot of "average builds" you can do with em too.
I was in Manchester the other day so I called into a few stores and what little GW stuff they had was hidden away and was all older stuff nothing that came out this year.
I also went into the GW store had a natter with a staff member he said on their busiest nights they had 16 players, that shows how bad things are.
This isn't a small town it's a big city and they get 16 players, back in 2004 stoke store had 20-30 people some nights and that's a small store with four tables.
They must drastically improve rules and slash prices soon or they will go bust.
hobojebus wrote: I was in Manchester the other day so I called into a few stores and what little GW stuff they had was hidden away and was all older stuff nothing that came out this year.
I also went into the GW store had a natter with a staff member he said on their busiest nights they had 16 players, that shows how bad things are.
This isn't a small town it's a big city and they get 16 players, back in 2004 stoke store had 20-30 people some nights and that's a small store with four tables.
They must drastically improve rules and slash prices soon or they will go bust.
Manchester is the store I frequent. There is an element of truth in this. There are less regular players for AoS. Things seem to be picking up but not quite 20-30 people. The only time I've seen that many was in Derby for the birthday event. Warhammer World was apparently packed with at least 100 (but I've been there and it blows any GW store, flagship or outlet, out the water for what it provides).
I'm with the OP on this with the Orks pretty much, I like the background and stuff for the Orks but I would never pick them up looking at how much effort I would put into a horde only to have a struggling force that would be mostly outdated when they finally do fix them up properly again. To me the fun of horde melee armies like the Orks died when overwatch came into the game, specifically the Tau's version of it really.
40k is great and all with the background and the models I enjoy the look of (that's what keeps me going in it of course ), but the imbalance between armies is really frustrating. I shelved my Eldar army when the update came out as I spent ages working on a foot wraith themed list and really enjoyed it, but seeing the power they and the wraithknight got while stuff like leaving the wraithlord even more in the dust and the rest of the army, it lost it's charm to me; more so with how I would need to take even more wraithknights to run the list I have, two was pushing it back then so I liked to use just a single and with the upgrade to GMC and the power it got overall I'd think one is enough. However now I'm working on Imperial Knights, but I feel a pure knight list has a lot more room for weaknesses than Eldar would; the wraithknight really kind of scares me a bit with them.
Selym wrote: You should tell that to the last three GW managers I've met. I once got threatened with a store ban for using blu-tac as a cheap moulding material on a nurgle dreadnought.
Tell them to get fethed. That kind of behaviour is a blight on this hobby no matter what game. I'd love to hear their opinions on the early work of John Blanche and Mike McVey and other GW staff of that time.
Scratch that. Would they even know who Mike McVey was? I've heard stories of certain Warhammer World staff not recognising his name.
n0t_u wrote: I'm with the OP on this with the Orks pretty much, I like the background and stuff for the Orks but I would never pick them up looking at how much effort I would put into a horde only to have a struggling force that would be mostly outdated when they finally do fix them up properly again. To me the fun of horde melee armies like the Orks died when overwatch came into the game, specifically the Tau's version of it really.
40k is great and all with the background and the models I enjoy the look of (that's what keeps me going in it of course ), but the imbalance between armies is really frustrating. I shelved my Eldar army when the update came out as I spent ages working on a foot wraith themed list and really enjoyed it, but seeing the power they and the wraithknight got while stuff like leaving the wraithlord even more in the dust and the rest of the army, it lost it's charm to me; more so with how I would need to take even more wraithknights to run the list I have, two was pushing it back then so I liked to use just a single and with the upgrade to GMC and the power it got overall I'd think one is enough. However now I'm working on Imperial Knights, but I feel a pure knight list has a lot more room for weaknesses than Eldar would; the wraithknight really kind of scares me a bit with them.
Pretty much this, I love the fluff, I love the idea behind the Orks, I love the ascetics, I love everything about the Ork army except that when I play against most armies I know I am showing up at a distinct disadvantage, even before we put models on the table.
Eldar have been top tier basically every edition
SM have been mid to top tier every edition
Tau have been mid to top tier every edition (since they were released)
Necrons have been mid to top tier every edition.
Orks? We were maybe mid to maybe middle high in 5th and 6th edition, but only if you spammed Nob Bikers and used the wound allocation shenanigans.
Why do we have to have codex's every edition that are down in the mud, dead to the competitive world, and those same codices never EVER become top tier, at least not that I have yet to see. (Bottom tier armies: Orks, DE, Chaos, IG and Tyranids) These armies have 1-2 competitive builds, none of which are the best, but definitely competitive, but the codex as a whole is such utter trash that unless you constantly run those 1-2l lists your going to be losing to most other armies well above 50% of the time.
(None of my statements are based on player skill level but on over all power inside the codex. I have beaten up a bad Eldar player who brought Scat bikes and a Wraith Knight, and I have been tabled by almost the exact same list played by a merely competent player.)
You're discounting the fact that Orks were good in 5th based on the fact that they had to take specific lists to be good but not doing the same to other armies. Try playing Space Marines competetively without using formations or allies, or Necrons without the Decurion and see what happens. The issue of monobuild armies is not exclusive to the lower-tier Codices.
Also, OP...we are (MAYBE) getting the green tide back. The FAQ says that OOP formations are OK. We're one clarification from confirming (or denying) that the Green Tide is "OOP", and then it'll be time for this:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're discounting the fact that Orks were good in 5th based on the fact that they had to take specific lists to be good but not doing the same to other armies. Try playing Space Marines competetively without using formations or allies, or Necrons without the Decurion and see what happens. The issue of monobuild armies is not exclusive to the lower-tier Codices.
Discounting the fact that orks were good in 5th....ok. The only builds that were effective in 5th was Trukk Spam, Biker spam or Kan wall (to a lesser extent) while all of these were competitive (ish) none were really out standing. And the thing was that if you didn't take those specific lists you sucked because at the end of the day Orks still sucked at Close Combat (that one phase we are supposed to dominate).
Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.
What do Orks have in comparison if we don't run our super competitive tournament list of Zhadsnark's biker mob? NOTHING, our best unit is a Range 24 Rokkit that misses 2/3rds of the time, has to be ferried around in an open topped trukk with av 10/10/10 because believe it or not, that is actually more survivable then their current set up of T4 6+ save.
SemperMortis wrote:Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.
What do Orks have in comparison if we don't run our super competitive tournament list of Zhadsnark's biker mob? NOTHING, our best unit is a Range 24 Rokkit that misses 2/3rds of the time, has to be ferried around in an open topped trukk with av 10/10/10 because believe it or not, that is actually more survivable then their current set up of T4 6+ save.
I'm sensing some unhealthy hate of Space Marines judging by the fact that you've over-simplified them and implied every list you can take is powerful.
And as I said before: House-ruling! Think about it:
-- If you're annoyed that Orks are not competitive and/or under-powered and all that, then I'm willing to bet you don't play in tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong), so House-ruling won't affect you in the competitive sense.
-- That leaves going to your FLGS for games or game with friends at a non-FLGS location.
-- -- In this case, house-ruling will not only help you with your issues with Orks being weak, but also may be the incentive to game in places where house-ruling is allowed and not frowned upon (e.g. in your own house).
Selym wrote:Meet: 40k General Discussion.
Dakka is pretty much just a staging ground for GW venting. All other threads are optional extras.
And if we expanding it to all the 40K Sub-Forums: It's GW-Hate and Missing Primarchs re-runs! haha
SemperMortis wrote:Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.
What do Orks have in comparison if we don't run our super competitive tournament list of Zhadsnark's biker mob? NOTHING, our best unit is a Range 24 Rokkit that misses 2/3rds of the time, has to be ferried around in an open topped trukk with av 10/10/10 because believe it or not, that is actually more survivable then their current set up of T4 6+ save.
I'm sensing some unhealthy hate of Space Marines judging by the fact that you've over-simplified them and implied every list you can take is powerful.
And as I said before: House-ruling! Think about it:
-- If you're annoyed that Orks are not competitive and/or under-powered and all that, then I'm willing to bet you don't play in tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong), so House-ruling won't affect you in the competitive sense.
-- That leaves going to your FLGS for games or game with friends at a non-FLGS location.
-- -- In this case, house-ruling will not only help you with your issues with Orks being weak, but also may be the incentive to game in places where house-ruling is allowed and not frowned upon (e.g. in your own house).
Selym wrote:Meet: 40k General Discussion.
Dakka is pretty much just a staging ground for GW venting. All other threads are optional extras.
And if we expanding it to all the 40K Sub-Forums: It's GW-Hate and Missing Primarchs re-runs! haha
As far as hating space Marines? no not overly, I have no great hatred towards any player base, I noticed that a lot of TFG and WAAC players gravitate towards certain armies (Tau/Eldar/Marines) but I don't judge the book by its cover. In other words I reserve my judgement of the player and his army for AFTER the first couple games. If he plays a nice game then good for him, if he brings in 3 Wraith Knights and a fethload of Scat Bikes...well I won't bother playing against him anytime soon.
I play two types of games, Friendly pickups/schedules games and in local tournaments, I have played in a number of different locations across the entire eastern seaboard of the United States.
In all of that time I have yet to meet a player who was willing to accept house rules. Mostly because Orks are so fethed up atm they need a whole new codex worth of house rules to be playable.
At tournaments house ruling is whatever the Tourney organizer wants to do, and usually they revolve around nerfing Eldar shenanigans, Tau Shenanigans and SM Shenanigans. And at the moment the only Ork build that placed in the top 100 at the LVO was Zhadsnark's FW army of biker boyz. Ironically SM Super friends and Eldar Shenanigans placed A LOT in the top 100 with a number of different builds.
Just real quick...
If you're annoyed that Orks are not competitive and/or under-powered and all that, then I'm willing to bet you don't play in tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong)
how does that make any sense? If I am annoyed that the army I Chose isn't competitive then I probably don't go to tournaments? No it is the other way around, I am annoyed that my army is so un-competitive that when I do go to tournaments I get steam rolled.
If you're annoyed that Orks are not competitive and/or under-powered and all that, then I'm willing to bet you don't play in tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong)
how does that make any sense? If I am annoyed that the army I Chose isn't competitive then I probably don't go to tournaments? No it is the other way around, I am annoyed that my army is so un-competitive that when I do go to tournaments I get steam rolled.
In all fairness, we don't know each other, meaning that my interpretation (despite you telling me I'm horribly wrong) wasn't an unreasonable one to make. But considering you've essentially just told us that you do attend tournaments, this point is a non-issue.
But on House-Ruling: Why not do it for your casual games?
I play with House-Rules all the time, where the only potential issue is that these house rules cannot be used at my FLGS. This issue can easily be remedied by rote learning of the rules as well as rote learning of which are house rules and which are actual rules - something that I've done myself.
Best answer I can give you is that a number of people refuse to play house rules for whatever reason. And again I mention that with how terrible the ork codex is, how terrible the supplement is, how terrible the new flyer addition is, the number of house rules required to make the average ork unit competitive against mid/top tier codex's would be enormous.
You're not alone OP. I'll be sitting out the rest of 7th & very possibly 8th edition if the rumors are even remotely true. Word has it, 8th edition will be more of the same (doubling down on formations) and ignoring the underlying problem which is half of the armies out there need a complete revision/overhaul at the codex level. Until that is resolved, no progress can be made. At present, the point system might as well not exist. Some armies have units that cost 2-3 times the point cost of others yet have the same effectiveness. Other armies have formations that straight up give them free points, or fundamentally change the effectiveness of said army while others do not. Now GW is giving models instant death weapons at no extra cost if you are willing to spend $30.00 on a single space marine. Its just getting absurd.
SemperMortis wrote: Best answer I can give you is that a number of people refuse to play house rules for whatever reason. And again I mention that with how terrible the ork codex is, how terrible the supplement is, how terrible the new flyer addition is, the number of house rules required to make the average ork unit competitive against mid/top tier codex's would be enormous.
So in your original post, you (justifiably) complain about the lack of competitiveness in Orks, yet are still playing them; you say you're going boycott GW even though you've heavily invested in their products in the past and say that you will continue to buy their products (albiet 2nd hand products).
And by the sounds of your other posts (including the one quoted above), even your own friends won't allow house rules and you have no apparent interest in finding or developing any house rules. You also seem to be frustrated by the very limited amount of lists you can take that allow you to win at tournaments, but apparently still play them.
So my question to you is: Why are you still playing Orks?
I don't mean any disrespect by this question, but if anything, your comments seem to suggest (to me, at least) that you're better off quitting Orks or, if you're set on Orks, you're better off quiting the modelling side of the hobby.
SemperMortis wrote: Best answer I can give you is that a number of people refuse to play house rules for whatever reason. And again I mention that with how terrible the ork codex is, how terrible the supplement is, how terrible the new flyer addition is, the number of house rules required to make the average ork unit competitive against mid/top tier codex's would be enormous.
So in your original post, you (justifiably) complain about the lack of competitiveness in Orks, yet are still playing them; you say you're going boycott GW even though you've heavily invested in their products in the past and say that you will continue to buy their products (albiet 2nd hand products).
And by the sounds of your other posts (including the one quoted above), even your own friends won't allow house rules and you have no apparent interest in finding or developing any house rules. You also seem to be frustrated by the very limited amount of lists you can take that allow you to win at tournaments, but apparently still play them.
So my question to you is: Why are you still playing Orks?
I don't mean any disrespect by this question, but if anything, your comments seem to suggest (to me, at least) that you're better off quitting Orks or, if you're set on Orks, you're better off quiting the modelling side of the hobby.
I will buy GW products only from second hand purchases, IE EBAY, and here on Dakka, I am currently hunting for a 3rd party website where I can buy knockoffs because I would rather not give GW any money at all, (Im aware that 2nd hand sellers use that cash to buy more GW most of the time.)
I still play tournaments because I enjoy the challenge and I want to see if I can some how tactician my way to success. If orks got better this wouldn't lessen my enjoyment, it just means that I have a more fair footing going into the game as opposed to having to hope to mork that my opponent makes a huge blunder that I can capitalize on.
Why do I still play Orks? Simple,
1: I have spent hundreds of dollars acquiring these models, I even went as far as to purchase garbage SM models, fix them up and then sell them in order to purchase my ork units.
2: I have spent HUNDREDS of hours assembling, painting, fixing, modeling and repairing my Ork army, I never will get rid of them, on top of that I have a nice healthy dose of PTSD and this hobby actually helps me somewhat dealing with some bad days I have.
3: I hold out a glimmer of hope that either GW gets a complete and total revamp and fixes the massive underlying issues with Orks and the other low tier armies, or GW goes tits up and has to sell the game to another company that is far more competent at writing rules.
And lastly, I still play Orks because I absolutely love the fluff behind the army, the colors, the ascetics of the models and basically everything orky. I want to get a giant Ork Skull Emblem to put on my car
That is why I still collect and play my Orks. At the moment I lose more often then win, but when I do win it is all that much sweeter because at the moment I Know that my army started off with a handicap and still managed to win.
Getting back to the OP's feeling on things for gaming.
Many of us who have a bit of a love-hate going is because you may have a ton of GW models for 40k.
So when the rule-set starts sucking bad it is a huge letdown.
I liked 40k for meeting other players and hopefully make a friend here and there and have good games.
40k right now sucks for pickup games, that is just the state of things right now.
I have diversified what games I play a bit more, especially toward more competitive games so I am not dependent on GW for my fun.
They seem to have some issues figuring out where their customer needs are so until they do, I play other things.
As others have pointed out, house rules and making scenarios with friends allow 40k to still shine and I get good games in there.
Their models are good looking and still worth building and painting up as part of the hobby.
I think it is a bit unfair for others to say "stop complaining" or "are you leaving or not?", many had really good times with the game and keep hoping that feeling will be back.
Usually we have too many models to keep completely out of things and still hope against hope that GW is listening and does something about the dissatisfaction out there.
I must admit the latest changes from GW and the latest FAQ are great steps for a company that stayed largely uninvolved for years.
Korinov wrote: People should always remember that whining about whining is whining too.
Is meta-whining. And I don't like it!
OP, none will ever deprive you of you orks, and the time you enjoyed building them. That was the point of that time. Concerning GW, I just stopped buying new stuff from them. There is other stuff, and on ebay I find older GW that I enjoy. Khazad Guard is 200% dwarfer that the fyreslayers. Just stup giving GW money and let them rot.
Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.
And then you get stomped because the formations and allies are what makes Space Marine a top-tier Codex. It'd not be as badly off as Orks, but you're still pigeonholed into a few builds if you want to swing with the big boys. If it's unfair that Orks only had three different builds during 5th then surely it's unfair that Space Marines have to spam Grav, Librarians, and Gladii to win now, no?
Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.
And then you get stomped because the formations and allies are what makes Space Marine a top-tier Codex. It'd not be as badly off as Orks, but you're still pigeonholed into a few builds if you want to swing with the big boys. If it's unfair that Orks only had three different builds during 5th then surely it's unfair that Space Marines have to spam Grav, Librarians, and Gladii to win now, no?
This. Takes no bikes, give all your Tac Marines plasma, take no Flyers, no formations and you'll probably lose. SM are in a good spot, as you can run a fairly decent list without spamming, but you can also go full competitive by running the best units and formations.
All codices need this, and this is why Eldar are so hated, because every unit Eldar have are at least decent, if not great.
I feel your pain OP, that new Ork flyer and the supplements where a kick in the teeth (or should that be 'teef'?).
The simple thing is that right now GW are only concerned with catering to the big 4 armies and they are they ones getting all the fun stuff. Just stick with it, or quit. Your choice.
I just stopped playing it, not that much because of imbalance but rubbish core rules.
What made me truly consider boycotting GW though (apart from AoSofc hreh), was the artwork in 7th edition codieces. I could take a screenshot from Relic's Space Marine game and come with a better and more characterful picture than some of the shameful, pathetic crap that makes it into the official books nowadays/ spits, kicks the dog and shouts abuse at furniture
I've been buying less and less, but the last straw was the Cadian tactical cards which were completely over-priced and unbelievably lazy. The paints and rulesets are just too expensive and lacking in quality content.
Plumbumbarum wrote: I just stopped playing it, not that much because of imbalance but rubbish core rules.
What made me truly consider boycotting GW though (apart from AoSofc hreh), was the artwork in 7th edition codieces. I could take a screenshot from Relic's Space Marine game and come with a better and more characterful picture than some of the shameful, pathetic crap that makes it into the official books nowadays/ spits, kicks the dog and shouts abuse at furniture
Oh man, the art in newer stuff is awful, it's increasingly looking like something out of League of Legends or something from Blizzard, not the 80's-esque heavy metal gothic-ness that defines 40k art.
Plumbumbarum wrote: I just stopped playing it, not that much because of imbalance but rubbish core rules.
What made me truly consider boycotting GW though (apart from AoSofc hreh), was the artwork in 7th edition codieces. I could take a screenshot from Relic's Space Marine game and come with a better and more characterful picture than some of the shameful, pathetic crap that makes it into the official books nowadays/ spits, kicks the dog and shouts abuse at furniture
Oh man, the art in newer stuff is awful, it's increasingly looking like something out of League of Legends or something from Blizzard, not the 80's-esque heavy metal gothic-ness that defines 40k art.
I agree, it looks like they're outsourcing to deviantart.
Plumbumbarum wrote: I just stopped playing it, not that much because of imbalance but rubbish core rules.
What made me truly consider boycotting GW though (apart from AoSofc hreh), was the artwork in 7th edition codieces. I could take a screenshot from Relic's Space Marine game and come with a better and more characterful picture than some of the shameful, pathetic crap that makes it into the official books nowadays/ spits, kicks the dog and shouts abuse at furniture
Oh man, the art in newer stuff is awful, it's increasingly looking like something out of League of Legends or something from Blizzard, not the 80's-esque heavy metal gothic-ness that defines 40k art.
I agree, it looks like they're outsourcing to deviantart.
This.
Is another sign of the fact they are cutting corners, not only in the rules development. They are pushing out so much crap that pay professionals is either too expensive, or just unfeasible (they would be overloaded) so they are producing a "good deviant art level" art.
To the original poster. I totally get your pain. I used to love my ork army. I played the crap out of it back in 3.5 and 4 and was very competitive (I played Kult of Speed) I never thought at the time that 4th was about the best version and most balanced rule set we would ever get. I could hold my own against any army in the game except Tau. But I was dying for a new codex to bring it up to the same level as the other newer books. My other army was Dark Eldar with the other oldest book in the game.
5th came out and it had a new ork codex. And it was worse than my Kult of Speed. And new Dark Eldar came out and it was worse than the old book too. And every other army got buffed again. My third army is CSM - but bezerker heavy because I love the Worldeaters. I bet you can see where I'm going with this.
So anyways it's been a few years since I've played. All my armies got worse and worse. I've sold off my orks that I loved. I sold off the dark eldar which were fun before. I still have my Worldeaters, but I'm thinking about packing it in forever.
I guess long story short, it has always annoyed me that army balance is so terrible in 40k. Some guys seem to have the attitude, "hey Orks are just cannon fodder, you picked that craptactular army, you need to play for fun, not wins" Funny it doesn't say that on the boxes for any ork products.
greenskinned git wrote: I guess long story short, it has always annoyed me that army balance is so terrible in 40k. Some guys seem to have the attitude, "hey Orks are just cannon fodder, you picked that craptactular army, you need to play for fun, not wins" Funny it doesn't say that on the boxes for any ork products.
Yeah, but that's GW's attitude in regards to Orks. They don't care what state Orks are in because not only do they give no gaks about army balance in the first place, but Orks are also the "fun" army so they put even less effort into it.
Something I often wonder about balance, is how would they take 23 different factions (counting up the tick boxes on the GW website under the 40k armies tab, which yes, does include variants of the same army ie, Dark Angels / Blood Angels etc) and make them -
1) a fluffy standalone faction
2) a faction that is in it's own right strong, yet balanced against the other factions which may have similar strengths / weaknesses to each other
3) completely balanced against those other factions whilst retaining their own unique identity
4) not make one factions weaknesses so easy to exploit for another faction whose strengths directly target those weaknesses, that army a will never play army b due to a - you guessed it - balance queries.
"Balance" to me (a none tournament gamer if it matters to anyone) is a bit of a misnomer, as all that balance implies is that everyone is stat level 4, with the only difference being the appearance of the model and the background written in to the Codex.
I'm not saying that people are wrong for hunting balance, I just genuinely can't imagine how much work would have to go in to seeking balance for every faction. It'd surely mean that GW would have to revisit and release every codex at the same time, all with updated rules, which would take them years to do, and cost the end user a ridiculous amount of cash or frustration as they strive to get every codex for every army that they collect before realising that they can't afford to do so there "feth you GW for making this goal unattainable"...
Do you think that the way to fix the issue then, would be to do away with standalone Codex's, and roll every single formation, army entry, background story in to one super codex, the approximate size cost and weight of the big rule books? That way for - for example - £60, every gets every unit for every faction all updated at the same time which have all been playtested against eachother and balance can never be called in to query because they've all been released and play-tested on the same rule set?
To the OP: You know, I'm kind of with you. Earlier this year I went through a phase of wanting to get back into 40k, so much. I loved my 7th edition Necron codex, and wanted to start expanding my collection by a ton. I started painting a lot of my stuff, trying new lists, ext.
Then, of course, my morale starts to fall again. Another supplement for Imperial ponies with more psychic powers they don't need. Eldar and Imperials getting more stuff from Forgeworld, while Necrons remain in 5th edition as far as Forgeworld is concerned (and all of that stuff is pretty bad now. Definitely not worth the price). Tau getting, what, 2 or so supplements? The Ork supplement that was a joke, as well as the Daemon one. I'm still waiting on a Necron supplement.
Then, to further add to it, we have Death from the Skies. Two factions that either A. Have plenty of fliers (Orks) or B. Have really, really good Fliers and formations (Space Marines) both get another model that they'll try to push. Then, you have bloated rules added to a bloated game, at the cost of another 60 bucks.
Then, of course, they finally release an FAQ. Granted, some good came out of it (people can stop whining about Praetorians). But, Ghost Arks are useless and Conclave got an unnecessary nerf.
I'm sorry, but, what's keeping me into this game? Everyone at my store now has 1 or more Imperial Knights, or if their xenos, 2-3 Wraithknights/Stormsurges. We even have a few new people who seemed cool until they dropped Triptide + Doublesurge on the table. Meanwhile, I get to remember the times when I had a GC.
Seriously, though. Every day I grow closer to shelving my models again for awhile. X-wing has proven to be a lot more entertaining.
kitch102 wrote: I'm not saying that people are wrong for hunting balance, I just genuinely can't imagine how much work would have to go in to seeking balance for every faction. It'd surely mean that GW would have to revisit and release every codex at the same time, all with updated rules, which would take them years to do, and cost the end user a ridiculous amount of cash or frustration as they strive to get every codex for every army that they collect before realising that they can't afford to do so there "feth you GW for making this goal unattainable".
Other games manage it just fine. This is 40kseventh edition for feth's sake. They had seven editions and almost 30 years. There is no excuse.
You know, the same was said about Fantasy. Community-driven rulesets as Ninth Age have already proven the traditional excuses by GW and their apologists are a load of bull.
Korinov wrote: Other games manage it just fine. This is 40kseventh edition for feth's sake. They had seven editions and almost 30 years. There is no excuse.
You know, the same was said about Fantasy. Community-driven rulesets as Ninth Age have already proven the traditional excuses by GW and their apologists are a load of bull.
A good algorithm for points and some means of containing the powers or special rules within the various formations.
I see too many models that are priced completely out of line with their capabilities (good or bad).
If even a token attempt was made, it would have a huge impact.
"Balance" to me (a none tournament gamer if it matters to anyone) is a bit of a misnomer, as all that balance implies is that everyone is stat level 4, with the only difference being the appearance of the model and the background written in to the Codex.
Then I think you're going off the wrong idea of what balance entails. Balance does not mean everything is the same on the tabletop, it means that every unit has a role or function and is appropriately costed for that role and their abilities. A glance at literally any other game shows not only that it can be done, but can done quite well with a lot of variety.
I'm not saying that people are wrong for hunting balance, I just genuinely can't imagine how much work would have to go in to seeking balance for every faction. It'd surely mean that GW would have to revisit and release every codex at the same time, all with updated rules, which would take them years to do, and cost the end user a ridiculous amount of cash or frustration as they strive to get every codex for every army that they collect before realising that they can't afford to do so there "feth you GW for making this goal unattainable"...
Yeah, it'd take work. Quite a lot. I'd estimate it'd be the amount of work that a multi-million dollar studio with a team in the dozens all working on rules with a massive community for feedback and a few decades of experience to pull from could probably work through.
And, again, looking at literally any other game not only demonstrates that it is perfectly attainable, several offer their rules for free.
There's nothing special about 40k that makes it exempt from the basics of game design that every other game seems to get right, hilariously enough, even other GW games are examples of this.
Do you think that the way to fix the issue then, would be to do away with standalone Codex's, and roll every single formation, army entry, background story in to one super codex, the approximate size cost and weight of the big rule books? That way for - for example - £60, every gets every unit for every faction all updated at the same time which have all been playtested against eachother and balance can never be called in to query because they've all been released and play-tested on the same rule set?
No need to roll everything in one codex. One book, sure, divided internally appropriately. Separate books could work too. But the idea of balancing against eachother simultaneously is one of those things GW should have been doing two decades ago.
GW could also just offer their codices for free as rules only versions in PDFs, then sell a nice bound book with pictures and fluff and rules for the collectors or for people who want to support the company further.
Why? Tau and Eldar are competitive, but no one wants to play against us anymore because of our "OP" books, so our armies gather dust on shelves right alongside the bad, unplayable ones. What good does being competitive do you when you're not even "allowed" to play the game anymore?
Being a top-tier army is a fething curse, just as bad as being bottom-tier. Maybe even worse, because at least with a bottom-tier army you can still participate. Hardly anyone would turn down a game with Orks or Tyranids like they would Tau or Eldar.
I was thinking about this post when I work up this morning (yea, I need a life) and I agree. If Orks got moved into middle-teir status I would be happy.
If you want to win tournaments, take a tournament list.
Remember the 4th ed rulebook? It had stats for major units for most of the factions, so you could play the game without any codices. It didn't have all the options, and probably not all the units, but it was a nice, simple set of stats. I miss that simplicity - it's hard keeping track of all the rules changes and updates. I like the idea of extra datasheets for new units, but the death from the skies, which apparently supersedes the rulebook, is really annoying.
I do too, but GW found a way to make more money off you, in particular the 7th edition way of doing thins.
£50 for the rulebook and some photos/story that I doubt many people will have bought the purchase for, £30 for your Codex, £45 for your supplement (again with a fluff book that isn't the main reason you buy it for). So, £125 or so if you find deals, just for the rules of the game.
Not gonna lie, with that amount of money, my Infinity 300 pt army (as is standard for ITS tournaments) could be just about completed. Maybe 2/3 if I also bought the rulebook.
I was thinking about putting on my QQ mask and leaving the hobby too. It's certainly my most expensive interest and doesn't really provide me with much satisfaction.
( - shame, but I can see why people would leave. I've decided to stick it out, since I play only with my housemate and a select few mates, and I feel GW are moving slowly in the right direction at the moment... )
corpuschain wrote: Remember the 4th ed rulebook? It had stats for major units for most of the factions, so you could play the game without any codices. It didn't have all the options, and probably not all the units, but it was a nice, simple set of stats. I miss that simplicity - it's hard keeping track of all the rules changes and updates. I like the idea of extra datasheets for new units, but the death from the skies, which apparently supersedes the rulebook, is really annoying.
They did this in 5th as well if I remember right, one of the Eldar vehicles was typoed in the little book with one of it's armour facings as 2.
greenskinned git wrote: I guess long story short, it has always annoyed me that army balance is so terrible in 40k. Some guys seem to have the attitude, "hey Orks are just cannon fodder, you picked that craptactular army, you need to play for fun, not wins" Funny it doesn't say that on the boxes for any ork products.
Yeah, but that's GW's attitude in regards to Orks. They don't care what state Orks are in because not only do they give no gaks about army balance in the first place, but Orks are also the "fun" army so they put even less effort into it.
which is hilarious because they are so popular as an army. They are literally destroying their own sales by making Orks terrible.
Im still looking for a 3rd party website so if anyone has any suggestions feel free to PM Me
For whatever reason, GW cannot get Orks right these days, the last phoned-in codex all but killed my interest in 40k (fortunately 30k came along and has been winning me over, but Jesus, what a crock that ork codex was, a lazy, shoddy book).
It's a shame the powers that be failed to get the ork flyer right, but it's far from a surprise, the current game is a mess of bloat and churn and I could not imagine possessing the patience to play it, let alone try and add in the new (additional bloat) flying rules. They just have zero passion for orks, zero interest beyond 'show up and get shot to pieces by the other guy'. I used to BREAK space marine armies at the end of 5th, I didn't even fear the GK because the principals of taking on power armor were mostly the same...mostly...
My remaining 40k armies gather dust for now, awaiting the potential for growth and update in a new edition and unless we see some radical return to the playability of late 4th, early 5th edition, then that won't happen either.
I have two Xenos armies, Orks and Dark Eldar, I have spend thousands on them, I will not invest thousands of dollars more to play as someone else's NPC. It's an insult to me as a customer to offer me a subpar set of rules because my models do not sell in the numbers the other guy's does.
It continues to amaze me how GW does the bare minimum any company should do and people get all hopeful.
If new releases were coming out at a reduced price that would be a good sign, if they released an erreta actively changing stuff to buff some armies and nerf others that would be a good sign.
Putting older kits into army deals and doing faqs is what they should of been doing all along.
Until the games balanced and prices are slashed they remain on the same track to bankruptcy.
They are working as fast as they can to shovel themselves out of a giant pile of kirby-doo. There is no way Roundtree can just snap his fingers and have a balanced game without making it worse.
He HAS to get the rules fixed, and that is an enormous task. Once that's done he can address balance. Will he do so? Unknown, but give him a chance. Almost every week we hear about some improvement or another. Why rag on him now?
kitch102 wrote: Something I often wonder about balance, is how would they take 23 different factions (counting up the tick boxes on the GW website under the 40k armies tab, which yes, does include variants of the same army ie, Dark Angels / Blood Angels etc) and make them -
JimOnMars wrote: They are working as fast as they can to shovel themselves out of a giant pile of kirby-doo. There is no way Roundtree can just snap his fingers and have a balanced game without making it worse.
He HAS to get the rules fixed, and that is an enormous task. Once that's done he can address balance. Will he do so? Unknown, but give him a chance. Almost every week we hear about some improvement or another. Why rag on him now?
to be fair, he's been in the position a while and GW is still releasing garbage rules and overpowered stuff like crazy.
corpuschain wrote: Remember the 4th ed rulebook? It had stats for major units for most of the factions, so you could play the game without any codices. It didn't have all the options, and probably not all the units, but it was a nice, simple set of stats. I miss that simplicity - it's hard keeping track of all the rules changes and updates. I like the idea of extra datasheets for new units, but the death from the skies, which apparently supersedes the rulebook, is really annoying.
It was actually third edition that had reasonably complete army lists in the core rulebook. It was done since third was such a radical change from second, and no codexes would be available in the launch window; they all had to be completely redone. Other versions may have had stuff, but third was the one with army lists in the Big Black Book.
jreilly89 wrote: You play Orks or CSM or DEldar or Guard because you like them, not because they're actually competitive. You play SM, Necrons, Eldar, or Tau if you want to be competitive.
You want to know a really, really funny thing?
Orks were competitive through 4th and 5th.
CSM were competitive in 3rd and a significant chunk of 4th.
Dark Eldar were competitive through 5th and a fair chunk of 6th.
Guard were moderate in 3rd and 4th, strong through 5th.
These armies were all top tier armies at one point with very different and distinct playstyles.
With the exception of Guard they've all also been starter box armies too - people's first introduction to non imperial in 40k.
It's possibly to have multiple top tier armies existing at the same time. It's not an alien concept. Through most of 4th edition this was the case - Eldar, Guard, CSM, SM, Tau and Tyranids were all fairly solid top tier armies at that time.
In 5th you had SM, Eldar, Orks, Guard, Dark Eldar and Tyranids .
6th is really the only edition where the Holy Trinity of Power Creep truly came in - you could see the difference in codex writing - almost like they started off weak (CSM, DA), got carried away with power ramping (Eldar, Tau, SM) and then got promptly told off and told that was not the planned design direction - resulting in sub par codexes following the Trinity. Then they decided to change their direction altogether around the same time that 7th dropped - generally, the post-7th Decurion codices have all been equally as strong as one another...with KDK being the only strange glitch (because it did nothing to address the problem with the majority of the CSM units - I mean, sure Mark and Daemon rules stacking are nice and a good patch to some units...but not the answer we need.).
To the OP- If your looking for a auto-win button with Orks, your not getting it. Play Mealstrom, use Ghaz, use allies, stop playing WAAC players. Start asking your opponents to let you plus up your army points wise. Find the/a way to fun. Forge your narrative harder. Or don't, GW isn't going to fix it.
I think a lot of players are like this, missing the point entirely. I DO NOT WANT AN EASY WIN BUTTON! What I want is a "Give me a chance" button!!
The fact that you even suggest using Ghaz is hilarious, can you think of another LoW that can die to sweeping advance? For that matter can you think of a single LoW that still swings at Initiative 1 without having a D weapon?
I don't want to use allies because I have invested a lot of time, money and effort into my Ork army, I shouldn't have to purchase a 2nd army to be competitive.
I don't play against WAAC Players if I can help it. When I am playing friendly games if it isn't against Tyranids, CSM or DE I know that I am in for a rough ride. They don't have to be Net LIsting and min maxing to kick the crap out of me if they are Eldar/Tau/SM or Crons.
When I play in tournaments I get my butt handed to me because the only competitive list the Orks have at the moment involves Zhadsnark's biker boyz and is easily beaten by simply having access to flamers or other Ignores Cover weapons (IE Every Tau Weapon)
I just want to play a game that I love on an equal footing with everyone else, is that really so much to ask for from a company that makes millions?
Most of you by my count are a bunch of hypocrites, you complain about leaving and you moan about the codecies and suppliments yet you still use them, and your still here. If you don't like it then you have all the right to bugger off instead of moaning and ruining the community for other people. Although on the other hand the people at my local store have a good laugh at how silly threads like this become, so I guess your good for something.
If you want to make things better then activley do so, complaining does nothing but make the community toxic, and I imagine thanks to you GW think that their main consumer base consists of whiny teenage girls.
Atleast the whiny online community is very differant from those at local stores. If you contribute constructive critisism its great! And I applaud you, don't get me wrong. But those people are not the most vocal of the group
Reavas wrote:Most of you by my count are a bunch of hypocrites, you complain about leaving and you moan about the codecies and suppliments yet you still use them, and your still here. If you don't like it then you have all the right to bugger off instead of moaning and ruining the community for other people. Although on the other hand the people at my local store have a good laugh at how silly threads like this become, so I guess your good for something.
This! haha. 100% This! And @ the OP: As I said in my first reply to this thread:
What exactly were you expecting from this thread? Sympathy? Shows of support? Uproars of agreement followed by similar pledges of boycotting GW?
You want to boycott GW because they have no apparent interest in balancing the army you invested in any time soon? Fine, go ahead; but how does that concern us?
You want a level playing field? Fine, I get that and totally agree. You think GW isn't doing anything to help Ork players? I can agree with this, too. But what good was starting this thread ever going to do for your current situation? (The answer to this question is obviously "Nothing").
SemperMortis wrote:I just want to play a game that I love on an equal footing with everyone else, is that really so much to ask for from a company that makes millions?
Not, it isn't. But think about this:
The (relatively) recent additions to the Ork army include a pretty gakk flyer and a supplement which (depending on who you ask) is also gakk. This should tell you that GW has no immediate plans to buff the Orks. With that in mind, what it your whinging going to do about the situation? (The answer is absolutely nothing).
This brings me back to my original advice with a bit extra kicked in:
House rule things. I know it's a lot of effort, but there are a whole bunch of ideas out there (including many on this website) that you could draw from, and if you look hard enough, you might even find someone's (preliminary) attempt at a new Ork codex. Even if the rules you choose to use as house rules are gakk and/or unfinished, can they really do much worse than the current rules for them? As for people refusing to play House Rules, I can definitely understand that at Tournaments and it's not unreasonable at FLGS's. But: If it's your friends that are refusing to play with your house rules that are there for no other purpose than to make the game more fair, then I'd question them on this.
If there's absolutely nobody that will play house rules with you, then ignore the above point.
If it's really that bad, stop playing or be selective about which opponents you face. Don't go to tournaments to play with your Orks. Don't play people who run cheese lists. In other words, don't put yourself in a position where you know you have no chance of winning (or even having a game remotely representative of a close game). For example, I don't play against Tau armies anymore (for the most part) because the models I have prevent me from taking a list that's competitive against Tau. I know that's not quite the same thing as your situation, but I think it makes my point.
If this was any kind of competitive fighting game and a character/faction is still low tier even after a sequel, you don't see people giving up the entire game because of balance.
Don't kid yourself. Complaining here isn't going to do jack. You don't want balance, you just want to feel more special as if a company owes you anything about how to handle your own personal satisfaction.
I am an IG player. I have frustrations like anyone else. Death from the skies just outright makes valkyries suck. Almost on par with rough riders. Loss of skyfire, no amendment to the terrible hellstrike missiles, and basically auto-losing my valkyrie in a dogfight vs. Eldar? Awesome. But they gave me ObSec on the valk so it is okay, right?
Trust me when I say I feel your pain.
To the OP- If your looking for a auto-win button with Orks, your not getting it. Play Mealstrom, use Ghaz, use allies, stop playing WAAC players. Start asking your opponents to let you plus up your army points wise. Find the/a way to fun. Forge your narrative harder. Or don't, GW isn't going to fix it.
I think a lot of players are like this, missing the point entirely. I DO NOT WANT AN EASY WIN BUTTON! What I want is a "Give me a chance" button!!
The fact that you even suggest using Ghaz is hilarious, can you think of another LoW that can die to sweeping advance? For that matter can you think of a single LoW that still swings at Initiative 1 without having a D weapon?
Kinda hard to be swept when you have a 2++ rerollable with FNP and fearless with Graznik and two other warbosses and a luckystick. I can see trying to "help" you is pointless. Just give up the game. Try checkers, its balanced.
Also, thanks for "laughing" at me for trying to help you out. My mistake. Welcome to my block list. Lol. Makes Dakka a better place.
Well for starters, Ghaz NEVER has a 2++ rerollable. It is physically impossible for him to get that, so whomever you play that has this is cheating you. Ghaz can get a 2++ however if you are willing to spend around 1,200 points to give him that save. Your obviously suggesting the Ghazcurion which is laughable at best. I'm sorry that by pointing out how broken the rules are for the Ork army I have offended you. If you already blocked me then ohh well, it was good talking to you.
If this was any kind of competitive fighting game and a character/faction is still low tier even after a sequel, you don't see people giving up the entire game because of balance.
Don't kid yourself. Complaining here isn't going to do jack. You don't want balance, you just want to feel more special as if a company owes you anything about how to handle your own personal satisfaction.
Wow thanks for putting words in my mouth. Here I was thinking I was mad at a company that has taken hundreds if not thousands of my dollars for a game, and instead of providing me with decent rules to play that army with they instead phone it in for the Ork faction. But hey im sure you know what im thinking far better then I do.
As a Side note, I have written several letters and e-mails to GW and I have called once to ask if there was anyway we could talk with the Ork developers in order to understand wtf they are doing. Guess how much good that did?
As far as the point of this thread? Really there isn't one, mostly I was just venting having reached my limit of idiotic ork supplements and codices. So for those handful of people who decided to read all of those posts just to get to the point where they could say "BYE!" To bad for you, as I pointed out in the original post, I am not quitting I am just boycotting GW in the vain hopes that one day they will lose enough customers to understand they need to make a balanced game.
If so, how, in Gork's name, do you think Roundtree will know about your magic boycott?
I have been writing letters since GW decided mid edition to turn the power levels up to 11. I wrote more letters after the first Ghaz supplement was released. I wrote even more letters when they re-released the Ghaz Supplement and filled it with a bunch of copy paste from other ork books and the last supplement and then proceeded to explain to us how spending 1,200 pts to give ghaz a 2++ and army wide Fearless is worth it.
And Finally I wrote a last letter to GW after they released this recent trash and told them verbatim that I will be boycotting their company until they can fix the glaring issues in the game and that I will be encouraging others to do so as well.
Now I know a lot of people are going to say "Well who cares what you think, do you think GW gives a feth about you!" and to that I say, I care, and NO I know for a fact that GW will just laugh this off. Losing 1 person who spends maybe $200 a year on this hobby won't bother them at all, but its a step in the right direction. Maybe if more and more people did likewise they would take it a bit more seriously then they currently do.
I used to not understand how GW gets along until there was the poll that showed how many armies each player had. I only have one list, and half of that is from the last century. Literally. I am not their target audience. They guy who can just buy the latest OP stuff for one of his six armies is.
IllumiNini wrote: So you created this thread for no other reason than to vent.
And not only that, you think boycotting them is a step in the right direction to getting what you want.
Wow... Just wow...
Thank you for reiterating what I said, it really helps me understand how useless your comments are "Wow...Just wow..." so insightful.
So instead of trying to change the game the only way I am capable of doing so, boycotting and writing letters, I should just sit back and take it like a good little boy? is that your advice? What army do you play IllumiNini?
SemperMortis wrote: So instead of trying to change the game the only way I am capable of doing so, boycotting and writing letters, I should just sit back and take it like a good little boy?
I've given you options:
House Rule; Be selective with respect to your opponents; or Stop Playing.
And considering the point of this thread, I don't think you're in any position to be judging the purpose or insightful-ness of other people's comments....
SemperMortis wrote: So instead of trying to change the game the only way I am capable of doing so, boycotting and writing letters, I should just sit back and take it like a good little boy?
I've given you options:
House Rule; Be selective with respect to your opponents; or Stop Playing.
And considering the point of this thread, I don't think you're in any position to be judging the purpose or insightful-ness of other people's comments....
And as I have pointed out several times my area doesn't use House Rules, I also like playing tournaments and House ruling is pretty much against the rules (at least your own home brew). I am very selective with my opponents, but if I chose to never play against an army that is significantly more powerful then my Orks I will only ever play against BA, DE, IG, CSM and Nids. And in my area there are very few of any of those.
And considering the point of this thread I think I am in the perfect position to judge the uselessness of your comments that you have repeated multiple times, completely ignoring my comments in return
SemperMortis wrote: And considering the point of this thread I think I am in the perfect position to judge the uselessness of your comments that you have repeated multiple times, completely ignoring my comments in return
I haven't ignored you, just repeating myself in the hopes that you might understand that if you're unhappy with the current state of the game, you current situation as far as games, and GW's apparent lack of making Orks better, then if you want to keep playing, maybe the onus to do something about it is on you.
If you disallow list tailoring, at least Orks are kinda counter-meta. Grav at least is inefficient against them, as well as any low AP weapon. When I face Orks, I have precious few flamers and such because my lists are full of melta and grav, both of which suck against Orks.
Realy the best thing for you to do OP is drop 40k and get into a new system.
Boycotting isn't really going to do much unless you can get a few thousand people doing it at the same time.
Writing letters will do basically nothing without there pocket hurting.
But other games gaining more players, pushing at GW as they lose money and players will get them to look.
Don't expect 40k to change until they are forced to change it.
Leaving the 40k hobby does alot more, and you can return latter in life if it becomes good again.
Bringing and supporting other games is what will force GW to really look into how they support there own game.
Martel732 wrote: If you disallow list tailoring, at least Orks are kinda counter-meta. Grav at least is inefficient against them, as well as any low AP weapon. When I face Orks, I have precious few flamers and such because my lists are full of melta and grav, both of which suck against Orks.
This as well. Every time I play against my mate who also plays Orks, we purposefully don't tell each other our lists until after both lists have been written and finalised to prevent list tailoring. I also try to take less vehicles that I otherwise would to make it that much more fair for them.
SemperMortis wrote: And considering the point of this thread I think I am in the perfect position to judge the uselessness of your comments that you have repeated multiple times, completely ignoring my comments in return
I haven't ignored you, just repeating myself in the hopes that you might understand that if you're unhappy with the current state of the game, you current situation as far as games, and GW's apparent lack of making Orks better, then if you want to keep playing, maybe the onus to do something about it is on you.
I do wish to keep playing and I have decided to do something about it, pretty sure I spelled this out in the 1st post and several times since then. I am boycotting GW products and supporting their 3rd party competition instead. I am also actively encouraging others to do likewise, I finally found a 3rd party website that sells models and I plan on purchasing some soon to see how they come out, if they are good then im going to inform players of the website and encourage them to buy there instead of from GW. (The Local store is a game store not a GW store and has VERY limited stock if any most of the time.)
This quickly becomes an issue of "have not" armies complaining together against GW and the "Have" armies defending GW because at the moment their armies are in ascendancy
IllumiNini wrote: So you created this thread for no other reason than to vent.
And not only that, you think boycotting them is a step in the right direction to getting what you want.
Wow... Just wow...
More and more people are getting tired of GW. Many people are becoming or have been dissatisfied. Many have already quit.
You might not agree with me that starving out GW is not the right step.
You still think that by supporting GW with your money is the right way to get them to change the game.
GW wont care about him or me, but if enough of us boycott GW then they will have to change their attitudes and the way they go about doing business.
The original poster and I wont get what we want. We wont get anytime soon. But that also means GW wont get what they want from us and that is the money from our wallets.
SemperMortis wrote: And considering the point of this thread I think I am in the perfect position to judge the uselessness of your comments that you have repeated multiple times, completely ignoring my comments in return
I haven't ignored you, just repeating myself in the hopes that you might understand that if you're unhappy with the current state of the game, you current situation as far as games, and GW's apparent lack of making Orks better, then if you want to keep playing, maybe the onus to do something about it is on you.
What? are you going to tell him that ITS HIS FAULT for choosing to play ORKs?
SemperMortis wrote: And considering the point of this thread I think I am in the perfect position to judge the uselessness of your comments that you have repeated multiple times, completely ignoring my comments in return
I haven't ignored you, just repeating myself in the hopes that you might understand that if you're unhappy with the current state of the game, you current situation as far as games, and GW's apparent lack of making Orks better, then if you want to keep playing, maybe the onus to do something about it is on you.
I do wish to keep playing and I have decided to do something about it, pretty sure I spelled this out in the 1st post and several times since then. I am boycotting GW products and supporting their 3rd party competition instead. I am also actively encouraging others to do likewise, I finally found a 3rd party website that sells models and I plan on purchasing some soon to see how they come out, if they are good then im going to inform players of the website and encourage them to buy there instead of from GW. (The Local store is a game store not a GW store and has VERY limited stock if any most of the time.)
In the end you are still supporting the games if your playing at a store, not all army's have access to suitable models from 3rd party producers. And more specialist units make that harder, so people will get a bit less but will stil have to get stuff from GW.
Grief wrote: More and more people are getting tired of GW. Many people are becoming or have been dissatisfied.
Honesntly, I am too, but it hasn't affected me actually playing the game.
Grief wrote:You might not agree with me that starving out GW is not the right step.
I don't agree with it at all since it's not going to guarantee the results you want.
Grief wrote:You still think that by supporting GW with your money is the right way to get them to change the game.
I don't think my money is going to make GW see the light and create a better game, but at this point, I'd rather support them and see the game continue rather than see it disappear because they went bankrupt.
Grief wrote:GW wont care about him or me, but if enough of us boycott GW then they will have to change their attitudes and the way they go about doing business.
As noble as this idea is, it's not guaranteed or even one of the most likely scenarios.
Grief wrote:The original poster and I wont get what we want. We wont get anytime soon. But that also means GW wont get what they want from us and that is the money from our wallets.
Finally there's a point we can agree on! haha
SemperMortis wrote:I do wish to keep playing and I have decided to do something about it, pretty sure I spelled this out in the 1st post and several times since then. I am boycotting GW products and supporting their 3rd party competition instead. I am also actively encouraging others to do likewise, I finally found a 3rd party website that sells models and I plan on purchasing some soon to see how they come out, if they are good then im going to inform players of the website and encourage them to buy there instead of from GW. (The Local store is a game store not a GW store and has VERY limited stock if any most of the time.)
Well if you still disagree with me and think this is going to change anything about GW or the rules they release, then best of luck to you.
a_dead_thing wrote:Use your Orks as a proxy tyranids army.
Procying like this never ends wel. Ends up being too much to remember.
SemperMortis wrote: And considering the point of this thread I think I am in the perfect position to judge the uselessness of your comments that you have repeated multiple times, completely ignoring my comments in return
I haven't ignored you, just repeating myself in the hopes that you might understand that if you're unhappy with the current state of the game, you current situation as far as games, and GW's apparent lack of making Orks better, then if you want to keep playing, maybe the onus to do something about it is on you.
What? are you going to tell him that ITS HIS FAULT for choosing to play ORKs?
Thats is some kind of messed up logic.
I'm not saying it's his fault, but I'm saying the onus is on him to do something about it as far as himself is concerned since GW obviously wont'.
Well as you can see I do not post much but as an avid Ork Player I feel your Pain. Me I was never into list building but just used to Play with Loads of boyz in a 1500 pt game. at least 150 of them. This used to frighten a lot of opponents because the fearless rule helped get your troops across the board before low model count made leadership then an issue.
Now the new mob rule has totally messed that list and since 7th edition came in I have seen the Power creep come in. I Have a fair few armies. Ultramarines, Flesh Tearers, Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Grey Knights, Orks, Eldar and Necrons. Of those armies to me Orks are at the bottom. They never used to be. Those people that say house rule things is difficult when you only have the option to Play at a GW Store. Shift work makes it very difficult to get to clubs. To me giving orks invuln saves or FNP is not in keeping to me with the ethos of the army. The fluff seems to imply that orks works in mobs just bring back the old mob rule that may help alleviate some of the problems that orks have.
Sales are actually doing amazing here where I live, the store I go to is often packed with people and tables are pretty hard to get a hold of. With new models and packaging, especially the getting started packa are flying off the shelves. As much as it is to your distaste they are doing better than they have been in a while, with the new FAQ reaching out to customers aswell they are further solidifying themselves at the top
On no, starbucks has stopped producing the drink I want! So I'm going to coffee bean to get a drink, then drink it at starbucks, and shouting to everyone that the drink I love at starbucks is gone!
Anyway I believe IllumniNini and a couple of people have pretty good suggestions. Either you stop the game, and move on to another which is more practical, or just send them a mail, or post on their facebook in a technical standpoint. Sure the codex may not be fixed right away, but then again, big companies are more often than not unable to react fast with these kinds of changes. What makes you think they aren't fixing it right now?
Also, if you want to play competitively, why not suggest ITC into your meta? They nerf the stronger armies such as tau and some parts of eldar. And of course, if you were super competitive, why haven't you changed your army yet? And if you really love your orks so much, why would losing mean so much to you? And if you really want to be competitive with your orks, why are you only whining about losing instead of finding ways to win a game? Write up tactics for your orks for different scenarios. Test out what is best ork for the job.
So what if orks become the best codex one day? Does that mean you'll win all tournaments? And if you lose, you're just gonna blame something else then? Like rolling badly on one instance?
Sometimes the journey is more fun and more fulfilling than the end goal.
Reavas wrote: Sales are actually doing amazing here where I live, the store I go to is often packed with people and tables are pretty hard to get a hold of. With new models and packaging, especially the getting started packa are flying off the shelves. As much as it is to your distaste they are doing better than they have been in a while, with the new FAQ reaching out to customers aswell they are further solidifying themselves at the top
In your area they might be doing well, in the area I just moved away from 2 stores closed within 6 months of each other. Another store stopped carrying GW products entirely. At the end of the day the only two stores still carrying GW products was the GW store itself and a HUGE comic book/nerd store that also sold a ton of wargaming stuff and GW only made up a small portion of their total stock.
Again this is only MY experience. But on the other hand, GW hasn't released its quarterly earnings yet but up until now it has been BAD, VERY BAD for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bleak wrote: On no, starbucks has stopped producing the drink I want! So I'm going to coffee bean to get a drink, then drink it at starbucks, and shouting to everyone that the drink I love at starbucks is gone!
Anyway I believe IllumniNini and a couple of people have pretty good suggestions. Either you stop the game, and move on to another which is more practical, or just send them a mail, or post on their facebook in a technical standpoint. Sure the codex may not be fixed right away, but then again, big companies are more often than not unable to react fast with these kinds of changes. What makes you think they aren't fixing it right now?
Also, if you want to play competitively, why not suggest ITC into your meta? They nerf the stronger armies such as tau and some parts of eldar. And of course, if you were super competitive, why haven't you changed your army yet? And if you really love your orks so much, why would losing mean so much to you? And if you really want to be competitive with your orks, why are you only whining about losing instead of finding ways to win a game? Write up tactics for your orks for different scenarios. Test out what is best ork for the job.
So what if orks become the best codex one day? Does that mean you'll win all tournaments? And if you lose, you're just gonna blame something else then? Like rolling badly on one instance?
Sometimes the journey is more fun and more fulfilling than the end goal.
Beyond the fact that your being mildly insulting in the first part of your post let me RE-address some of the things already covered which you seem to have glossed over TLDR?
Orks have sucked since 7th dropped. Everyone with a brain could see that, since then they have released 4 count them 4 supplements for the Ork army, each one more atrocious then the last. So how do I know they aren't actively trying to fix the problem? Because they keep releasing more and more garbage.
ITC Does absolutely nothing to help power up the orks, while it does nerf some of the more blatant offenders in the Top Tier army it doesn't alleviate the problems with the Ork Codex therefore it doesn't help them enough to get them close to those power levels, LVO had the top ork player in something like 80+ place.
Why Haven't I changed my Army yet? Well because I am not SUPER competitive, I am just competitive, which is why I am playing a COMPETITIVE game. If I really loved orks why do I mind losing so much? because it isn't fun to show up to a game and spend more time setting up my models for the game then actually using them once the game starts. Ever watched a Green tide run into a Scat Bike spam? 50+ dead orks turn 1.
Why am i whining about losing instead of finding ways to win? Because as I pointed out THE ABSOLUTE BEST the orks could manage at LVO was barely in the top 100. Which means that against the top tier codex's I am almost always going to lose unless they decide to run a fluffy list that doesn't include the most common units in their codices such as Scat Bikes, Wraith Guard, Wraith Knights, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, Riptides, Stormsurges, Ghostkeels, Broadsides, and the list goes on.
I just ask of you to stop belittling me and the Ork Codex. Their isn't a L2P button I can hit that instantly makes Burna Boyz worth their points, or Nobz or Killa Kanz, Or Deff Dreadz, or Morkanauts, or Gorkanauts or Stompas or Ghazghkuul, or Stormboyz or Burna Bombas, or Dakka Jets or the other 2 Ork Flyers, or weirdboyz.
Nice ro see that the L2P police have successfully hijacked the thread.
To OP, move to another game. It will be cheaper, more fun, and will likely involve a company that doesn't think that gakking on their customers is the way to go.
Unfortunatley, GW is unlikely to ever improve.
To those pf you who somehow think that it's the OP's fault for playing orks, wtf are you smoking? Are youseriously saying that ifall of your armies had been invalidated, you would be happy to suck GW off and by a few grand's woryh of another army?
Should you be happy about never being given the chance to enjoy the army you identify with?
If that is your view, you are part of the reason 40k sucks rn.
Reavas wrote: Sales are actually doing amazing here where I live, the store I go to is often packed with people and tables are pretty hard to get a hold of. With new models and packaging, especially the getting started packa are flying off the shelves. As much as it is to your distaste they are doing better than they have been in a while, with the new FAQ reaching out to customers aswell they are further solidifying themselves at the top
In your area they might be doing well, in the area I just moved away from 2 stores closed within 6 months of each other. Another store stopped carrying GW products entirely. At the end of the day the only two stores still carrying GW products was the GW store itself and a HUGE comic book/nerd store that also sold a ton of wargaming stuff and GW only made up a small portion of their total stock.
Again this is only MY experience. But on the other hand, GW hasn't released its quarterly earnings yet but up until now it has been BAD, VERY BAD for them.
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bleak wrote: On no, starbucks has stopped producing the drink I want! So I'm going to coffee bean to get a drink, then drink it at starbucks, and shouting to everyone that the drink I love at starbucks is gone!
Anyway I believe IllumniNini and a couple of people have pretty good suggestions. Either you stop the game, and move on to another which is more practical, or just send them a mail, or post on their facebook in a technical standpoint. Sure the codex may not be fixed right away, but then again, big companies are more often than not unable to react fast with these kinds of changes. What makes you think they aren't fixing it right now?
Also, if you want to play competitively, why not suggest ITC into your meta? They nerf the stronger armies such as tau and some parts of eldar. And of course, if you were super competitive, why haven't you changed your army yet? And if you really love your orks so much, why would losing mean so much to you? And if you really want to be competitive with your orks, why are you only whining about losing instead of finding ways to win a game? Write up tactics for your orks for different scenarios. Test out what is best ork for the job.
So what if orks become the best codex one day? Does that mean you'll win all tournaments? And if you lose, you're just gonna blame something else then? Like rolling badly on one instance?
Sometimes the journey is more fun and more fulfilling than the end goal.
Beyond the fact that your being mildly insulting in the first part of your post let me RE-address some of the things already covered which you seem to have glossed over TLDR?
Orks have sucked since 7th dropped. Everyone with a brain could see that, since then they have released 4 count them 4 supplements for the Ork army, each one more atrocious then the last. So how do I know they aren't actively trying to fix the problem? Because they keep releasing more and more garbage.
ITC Does absolutely nothing to help power up the orks, while it does nerf some of the more blatant offenders in the Top Tier army it doesn't alleviate the problems with the Ork Codex therefore it doesn't help them enough to get them close to those power levels, LVO had the top ork player in something like 80+ place.
Why Haven't I changed my Army yet? Well because I am not SUPER competitive, I am just competitive, which is why I am playing a COMPETITIVE game. If I really loved orks why do I mind losing so much? because it isn't fun to show up to a game and spend more time setting up my models for the game then actually using them once the game starts. Ever watched a Green tide run into a Scat Bike spam? 50+ dead orks turn 1.
Why am i whining about losing instead of finding ways to win? Because as I pointed out THE ABSOLUTE BEST the orks could manage at LVO was barely in the top 100. Which means that against the top tier codex's I am almost always going to lose unless they decide to run a fluffy list that doesn't include the most common units in their codices such as Scat Bikes, Wraith Guard, Wraith Knights, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, Riptides, Stormsurges, Ghostkeels, Broadsides, and the list goes on.
I just ask of you to stop belittling me and the Ork Codex. Their isn't a L2P button I can hit that instantly makes Burna Boyz worth their points, or Nobz or Killa Kanz, Or Deff Dreadz, or Morkanauts, or Gorkanauts or Stompas or Ghazghkuul, or Stormboyz or Burna Bombas, or Dakka Jets or the other 2 Ork Flyers, or weirdboyz.
If that is insulting to you, then you should know what it feels like and what some of us are seeing. And like I said there are many ways to go about playing the game. And anyone with a brain would also stop doing disservice to themselves by wasting time doing something so impractical. Sure if you just stated if you wanted to boycott GW and join another game system, that is FINE. I jumped over to other games systems before as have many other players. But by playing the game and spreading the hate, it becomes oxymoronic and you're seriously wasting your time. Why not spend that time playing a new game? Getting to know more players?
And also, you should play with people who are just as like minded as you. There is no point going into a tournament which people who brings crazy lists to fight, and going to tournies like this means a lower tier army may not even be seen on the table and since you expected it why go in at all? Why not meet people who are willing to bring fun fluffy list who are just as competitive as you? One of my armies is tau, and I can say that if you are playing maelstrom, there is a good chance of orks getting into close combat with tau. And only the storm surge in the army don't get swept when they lose combat.
I'm not belittling you because you don't win as much using an ork codex. On the contrary, if you contact GW directly through email or fb(They are pretty active now) and start to ask them to redress your grievances and give them a set of points logical to what is wrong with the codex now it will be so much more effective and I will also stand by you. (i play pure harlequins too btw)
I do understand many codices are not worth their salt now(looking at CSM) so you can either write to them and see if they are willing to change(which might take a while), whilst playing another game at the moment. Or just complaining and trying to boycott and yet still play the race that is currently bad just because.
@Selym, its not the OP's fault for playing orks. But its not our fault we think that his time should be spent on better things to do, or maybe playing another game.
( - shame, but I can see why people would leave. I've decided to stick it out, since I play only with my housemate and a select few mates, and I feel GW are moving slowly in the right direction at the moment... )
Our gaming group will stay.
We play regularly (Wednesday and Saturday) WMH, 40k (mostly apo games), and bolt action. AoS not so much, but we've started a league with 6 players.
So I saw this thread in Dakka Dakka General Discussions called "I am done with Games-Workshop" so naturally I clicked on it, expecting to see some good-natured discussion of which Space Marine chapter is your favorite, or which primarch would win in a fight. I'm sure you can imagine my dismay when all I found was a bunch of complaining about Orks! But I read on hoping to finally get to some discussion about which chapter master is the kewlest, but 6 pages later still nothing but complaining!
I looked at my Ultramarines sitting sadly in my display case. "Why does the bad man say mean things about GW? Don't you love us?" This made me angry! This slight to my honor cannot go unanswered. I leap into the fray! To the OP:
1. Why do you care so much about winning? Orks are supposed to be a fun army. I'm pretty sure if you care about winning that makes you a WAACTFG. I play for fun. Have fun! No complaining!
2. Try playing against different armies. Afterall it's ultimately the responsibility of the players to make sure the game is balanced. If you're having trouble against Eldar or Tau maybe you should suggest to your opponent that they play pure Deathwing Srrike Force or Legion of the Damned instead so that both of you can enjoy the game.
3. Try making your own rules up. Ultimately it's your responsibility as a GW customer to design your own balanced ruleset to fix the problems with your army and convince your opponent to let you use them.
4. Have you tried using tactics? This can greatly aid you in achieving victory! Use your tactics and you can prevail.
5. If you think Eldar/Tau/SM/Necrons have it so easy maybe you should buy, assemble and paint one of those armies. It's your fault for playing Orks!
6. Maybe you should try another game system. You will not be missed! But whatever you do don't continue to complain about GW because it makes baby Jesus cry. Can't you see this is no good for the community! Leave GW alone!
Reavas wrote: Most of you by my count are a bunch of hypocrites, you complain about leaving and you moan about the codecies and suppliments yet you still use them, and your still here. If you don't like it then you have all the right to bugger off instead of moaning and ruining the community for other people. Although on the other hand the people at my local store have a good laugh at how silly threads like this become, so I guess your good for something.
If you want to make things better then activley do so, complaining does nothing but make the community toxic, and I imagine thanks to you GW think that their main consumer base consists of whiny teenage girls.
Atleast the whiny online community is very differant from those at local stores. If you contribute constructive critisism its great! And I applaud you, don't get me wrong. But those people are not the most vocal of the group
I on the other hand have a good laugh at people having a laugh at people who criticise the rubbish that is 7th edition but don't leave, there are many vialable reasons for staying in spite of the game's sad state.
Btw the game must be considered really good by those guys I guess, some denial lol.
angelofvengeance wrote: As has been mentioned a few times here, they are going to great lengths lately to change that.
Rules still gak, prices still stupidly expensive.
Considering rules and prices are the main problems of GW products, and have been for a while, you'll have to be more precise about those "great lenghts", because I don't see them.
If so, how, in Gork's name, do you think Roundtree will know about your magic boycott?
I have been writing letters since GW decided mid edition to turn the power levels up to 11. I wrote more letters after the first Ghaz supplement was released. I wrote even more letters when they re-released the Ghaz Supplement and filled it with a bunch of copy paste from other ork books and the last supplement and then proceeded to explain to us how spending 1,200 pts to give ghaz a 2++ and army wide Fearless is worth it.
And Finally I wrote a last letter to GW after they released this recent trash and told them verbatim that I will be boycotting their company until they can fix the glaring issues in the game and that I will be encouraging others to do so as well.
Now I know a lot of people are going to say "Well who cares what you think, do you think GW gives a feth about you!" and to that I say, I care, and NO I know for a fact that GW will just laugh this off. Losing 1 person who spends maybe $200 a year on this hobby won't bother them at all, but its a step in the right direction. Maybe if more and more people did likewise they would take it a bit more seriously then they currently do.
I fully support you taking this action. If I knew more about the Ork codex, I would do the same, but alas I know next to nothing.
Forget the naysayers - this is exactly how one effects change in a democratic, captialist culture. I doubt you're the only one - X-Wing Armada is the biggest selling game at the moment and that must be scary to GW.
For the record, I still spend lots of money on GW models (and am therefore not boycotting) because I'm primarily a modeller.
I use a lot of house rules when i game, so yes, I must also acknowledge that the rules are gak.
krodarklorr wrote: To the OP: You know, I'm kind of with you. Earlier this year I went through a phase of wanting to get back into 40k, so much. I loved my 7th edition Necron codex, and wanted to start expanding my collection by a ton. I started painting a lot of my stuff, trying new lists, ext.
Then, of course, my morale starts to fall again. Another supplement for Imperial ponies with more psychic powers they don't need. Eldar and Imperials getting more stuff from Forgeworld, while Necrons remain in 5th edition as far as Forgeworld is concerned (and all of that stuff is pretty bad now. Definitely not worth the price). Tau getting, what, 2 or so supplements? The Ork supplement that was a joke, as well as the Daemon one. I'm still waiting on a Necron supplement.
Then, to further add to it, we have Death from the Skies. Two factions that either A. Have plenty of fliers (Orks) or B. Have really, really good Fliers and formations (Space Marines) both get another model that they'll try to push. Then, you have bloated rules added to a bloated game, at the cost of another 60 bucks.
Then, of course, they finally release an FAQ. Granted, some good came out of it (people can stop whining about Praetorians). But, Ghost Arks are useless and Conclave got an unnecessary nerf.
I'm sorry, but, what's keeping me into this game? Everyone at my store now has 1 or more Imperial Knights, or if their xenos, 2-3 Wraithknights/Stormsurges. We even have a few new people who seemed cool until they dropped Triptide + Doublesurge on the table. Meanwhile, I get to remember the times when I had a GC.
Seriously, though. Every day I grow closer to shelving my models again for awhile. X-wing has proven to be a lot more entertaining.
The 40K experience is primarily based on your opponent pool. If your a GT player, its min/max and face raping. Local meta may have "that guy" or group of guys. Or Moneyhammer. Exploitation/internet/cheese meta. Fluffhammer. You have to find a game that fits your local meta.
@krodarklorr: Come play with us. If someone brought a stupid build the opponent or opponents would be given plenty of heads up. Not to say we have a no cheese zone but your won't have to face it as a "pick up" scenario, i.e. invisible Knights are frowned upon. To that point we have 3 ork players and 2 CSM players that have no problem winning games. Necrons still have strong kung-fu in our meta(undefeated in our escalation league).
Not a lot of internet builds in our club. Tournament style play is for tournaments and glory hounds. There is only war here...
We play X-wing and Armada as well.
To the OP- If your looking for a auto-win button with Orks, your not getting it. Play Mealstrom, use Ghaz, use allies, stop playing WAAC players. Start asking your opponents to let you plus up your army points wise. Find the/a way to fun. Forge your narrative harder. Or don't, GW isn't going to fix it.
Heck, I'd love to find a new gaming group to play with. Even my X-wing group has become more along the lines of too competitive for my tastes.
angelofvengeance wrote: As has been mentioned a few times here, they are going to great lengths lately to change that.
Your definition of great lengths and mine clearly differ, faq's are something they should of been doing all along, as are army starter kits that's just basic stuff other companies do.
Prices on new stuff are still insane and rules still laughable as said above, and roundtrees already said prices Arnt gonna change so there's no reason to think this is the start of things turning around.
To the OP- If your looking for a auto-win button with Orks, your not getting it. Play Mealstrom, use Ghaz, use allies, stop playing WAAC players. Start asking your opponents to let you plus up your army points wise. Find the/a way to fun. Forge your narrative harder. Or don't, GW isn't going to fix it.
I think a lot of players are like this, missing the point entirely. I DO NOT WANT AN EASY WIN BUTTON! What I want is a "Give me a chance" button!!
The fact that you even suggest using Ghaz is hilarious, can you think of another LoW that can die to sweeping advance? For that matter can you think of a single LoW that still swings at Initiative 1 without having a D weapon?
Kinda hard to be swept when you have a 2++ rerollable with FNP and fearless with Graznik and two other warbosses and a luckystick. I can see trying to "help" you is pointless. Just give up the game. Try checkers, its balanced.
Also, thanks for "laughing" at me for trying to help you out. My mistake. Welcome to my block list. Lol. Makes Dakka a better place.
Well for starters, Ghaz NEVER has a 2++ rerollable. It is physically impossible for him to get that, so whomever you play that has this is cheating you. Ghaz can get a 2++ however if you are willing to spend around 1,200 points to give him that save. Your obviously suggesting the Ghazcurion which is laughable at best. I'm sorry that by pointing out how broken the rules are for the Ork army I have offended you. If you already blocked me then ohh well, it was good talking to you.
If this was any kind of competitive fighting game and a character/faction is still low tier even after a sequel, you don't see people giving up the entire game because of balance.
Don't kid yourself. Complaining here isn't going to do jack. You don't want balance, you just want to feel more special as if a company owes you anything about how to handle your own personal satisfaction.
Wow thanks for putting words in my mouth. Here I was thinking I was mad at a company that has taken hundreds if not thousands of my dollars for a game, and instead of providing me with decent rules to play that army with they instead phone it in for the Ork faction. But hey im sure you know what im thinking far better then I do.
As a Side note, I have written several letters and e-mails to GW and I have called once to ask if there was anyway we could talk with the Ork developers in order to understand wtf they are doing. Guess how much good that did?
As far as the point of this thread? Really there isn't one, mostly I was just venting having reached my limit of idiotic ork supplements and codices. So for those handful of people who decided to read all of those posts just to get to the point where they could say "BYE!" To bad for you, as I pointed out in the original post, I am not quitting I am just boycotting GW in the vain hopes that one day they will lose enough customers to understand they need to make a balanced game.
OP- Lucky Stikk. Look it up.
I swear sometimes I feel I'm the only one that actually reads the rules...
I think you can call it the cry of the "entitled".
Many have decades with the GW40k game and massive armies of models.
It sucks when you cannot get "a good game in" and may not have chosen any of the power-creep armies.
If this was any kind of competitive fighting game and a character/faction is still low tier even after a sequel, you don't see people giving up the entire game because of balance.
I believe there is less financial investment in that hobby or to maintain it to be current.
Don't kid yourself. Complaining here isn't going to do jack.
Probably not, but GW is beginning to make changes so you do have to ask where are they looking for ideas?
You don't want balance, you just want to feel more special
I could easily correct that with buying Tau or Eldar... I think there is a bit more motivation than that.
Most people want "balance", games are awesome when factions within them have completely different methods of play and can be a close fight.
as if a company owes you anything about how to handle your own personal satisfaction.
Companies DO owe there customers what they want or they stop buying.
A fairly simple and effective response.
Look at their annual reports: it is harder for them to get dividends so it is hitting their upper management in their wallets and glory-be: they suddenly are making changes.
Companies can ignore their customers at their peril, GW just could do it longer since they had more "fat" to sell off.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So I saw this thread in Dakka Dakka General Discussions called "I am done with Games-Workshop" so naturally I clicked on it, expecting to see some good-natured discussion of which Space Marine chapter is your favorite, or which primarch would win in a fight. I'm sure you can imagine my dismay when all I found was a bunch of complaining about Orks! But I read on hoping to finally get to some discussion about which chapter master is the kewlest, but 6 pages later still nothing but complaining! I looked at my Ultramarines sitting sadly in my display case. "Why does the bad man say mean things about GW? Don't you love us?" This made me angry! This slight to my honor cannot go unanswered. I leap into the fray! To the OP:!
Not sure if sarcasm, trolling or serious misunderstanding of topic... I too jump into the fray.
1. Why do you care so much about winning? Orks are supposed to be a fun army. I'm pretty sure if you care about winning that makes you a WAACTFG. I play for fun. Have fun! No complaining!
Oh yes, fun! I love losing! 10 games straight in a row!
I challenge myself on how to lose in the most fun way possible!
To choose to play less competitive is fine, but still managing some wins are part of the point in war-game.
2. Try playing against different armies. Afterall it's ultimately the responsibility of the players to make sure the game is balanced. If you're having trouble against Eldar or Tau maybe you should suggest to your opponent that they play pure Deathwing Srrike Force or Legion of the Damned instead so that both of you can enjoy the game.
Or they can turn around and "suggest" you play something better?
I am sure each of you have a few extra hundred dollars lying around to buy an army that sucks.... er, "has character".
3. Try making your own rules up. Ultimately it's your responsibility as a GW customer to design your own balanced ruleset to fix the problems with your army and convince your opponent to let you use them.
I believe that is the "lets roll-off" method: you can "mis-remember" any rule you want, disagree with your opponent and then have a 50-50 chance of using that rule!
Brilliant!
Yes, not only forge the narrative but forge the rules as well.
I am a gamer, not a blacksmith Jim!
4. Have you tried using tactics? This can greatly aid you in achieving victory! Use your tactics and you can prevail.
But chance is a cruel mistress.
Very little tactics survive the unrelenting avalanche of dice rolls.
Heck, my generals and psychers have no clue what knowledge or skills they have until the day of battle.
I love planning my tactics around complete unknowns.
5. If you think Eldar/Tau/SM/Necrons have it so easy maybe you should buy, assemble and paint one of those armies. It's your fault for playing Orks!
But it can be so much fun to have your codex updated to suck though!
Plus I think that comment of finding spare cash lying around to get the flavor of the month army can be problematic.
6. Maybe you should try another game system. You will not be missed! But whatever you do don't continue to complain about GW because it makes baby Jesus cry. Can't you see this is no good for the community! Leave GW alone!
GW does no research so they cannot be blamed for their ignorance!
We have no right to complain because the world can go wrong anywhere at any moment... that is life.
BUT in the faint hope of irritating others in power to change we will continue to whine as strongly as possible to fight for our rights as consumers.
1. Why do you care so much about winning? Orks are supposed to be a fun army. I'm pretty sure if you care about winning that makes you a WAACTFG. I play for fun. Have fun! No complaining!
No arguments here, except that they should also stand a hope in hells chance against other armies.
2. Try playing against different armies. Afterall it's ultimately the responsibility of the players to make sure the game is balanced. If you're having trouble against Eldar or Tau maybe you should suggest to your opponent that they play pure Deathwing Srrike Force or Legion of the Damned instead so that both of you can enjoy the game.
If the OP is in a similar meta to mine that may be an issue.
3. Try making your own rules up. Ultimately it's your responsibility as a GW customer to design your own balanced ruleset to fix the problems with your army and convince your opponent to let you use them.
I have to say, this is the best idea I have heard in a long time.
4. Have you tried using tactics? This can greatly aid you in achieving victory! Use your tactics and you can prevail.
As a Guard player I can say that, at best, this is hit and miss against the Eldar/Tau/SpaceMarine/Necron overlords.
5. If you think Eldar/Tau/SM/Necrons have it so easy maybe you should buy, assemble and paint one of those armies. It's your fault for playing Orks!
Oh if only it was so easy as that. Dropping £500+ worth of investment for another £300+ is not fun. But do not worry, your valuable contribution to GW will ensure that they can afford to release their next supplement: Superfriends plotinium alliance, which will feature major buffs for the top four codexes as well as special formations that let you pass all rolls on a rerollable 2+.
It seems to me that the whole "codex" model of the game is what causes the problems.
Instead of releasing rules, then putting out new codices for those rules over a long period of time (which causes inevitable power creep), just make the rule book contain everything.
Or release the rules in one go, after writing them in tandem.
Unfortunatley, GW's market policy makes this impossible as they are only able to survive by using money grabs to get them through the quarter. If everyone on Dakka refrained from buying GW stuff for a full month, someone would notice.
Griddlelol wrote: It seems to me that the whole "codex" model of the game is what causes the problems.
Instead of releasing rules, then putting out new codices for those rules over a long period of time (which causes inevitable power creep), just make the rule book contain everything.
There is a good reason not to have it all in the rule book, space. Ideally a codex like book is so you can place rules and information more specific to that army/race.
Other games do it just fine, 40k can also.
The issues GW face is multilayered and built up over years now, the big issues is they never really improoved upon what they had and sorta just added to it. Now the game is bursting with issues and they are just adding along to it like they always have.
GW release new edition of rules to often, and take to long to update there codexes before they redo the rules. It's little wonder they don't seem to understand what's going on, there design is way outta there. It's hard to even follow what kind of games they are playing with how some army's seem to get updates.
To the OP- If your looking for a auto-win button with Orks, your not getting it. Play Mealstrom, use Ghaz, use allies, stop playing WAAC players. Start asking your opponents to let you plus up your army points wise. Find the/a way to fun. Forge your narrative harder. Or don't, GW isn't going to fix it.
I think a lot of players are like this, missing the point entirely. I DO NOT WANT AN EASY WIN BUTTON! What I want is a "Give me a chance" button!!
The fact that you even suggest using Ghaz is hilarious, can you think of another LoW that can die to sweeping advance? For that matter can you think of a single LoW that still swings at Initiative 1 without having a D weapon?
Kinda hard to be swept when you have a 2++ rerollable with FNP and fearless with Graznik and two other warbosses and a luckystick. I can see trying to "help" you is pointless. Just give up the game. Try checkers, its balanced.
Also, thanks for "laughing" at me for trying to help you out. My mistake. Welcome to my block list. Lol. Makes Dakka a better place.
Well for starters, Ghaz NEVER has a 2++ rerollable. It is physically impossible for him to get that, so whomever you play that has this is cheating you. Ghaz can get a 2++ however if you are willing to spend around 1,200 points to give him that save. Your obviously suggesting the Ghazcurion which is laughable at best. I'm sorry that by pointing out how broken the rules are for the Ork army I have offended you. If you already blocked me then ohh well, it was good talking to you.
If this was any kind of competitive fighting game and a character/faction is still low tier even after a sequel, you don't see people giving up the entire game because of balance.
Don't kid yourself. Complaining here isn't going to do jack. You don't want balance, you just want to feel more special as if a company owes you anything about how to handle your own personal satisfaction.
Wow thanks for putting words in my mouth. Here I was thinking I was mad at a company that has taken hundreds if not thousands of my dollars for a game, and instead of providing me with decent rules to play that army with they instead phone it in for the Ork faction. But hey im sure you know what im thinking far better then I do.
As a Side note, I have written several letters and e-mails to GW and I have called once to ask if there was anyway we could talk with the Ork developers in order to understand wtf they are doing. Guess how much good that did?
As far as the point of this thread? Really there isn't one, mostly I was just venting having reached my limit of idiotic ork supplements and codices. So for those handful of people who decided to read all of those posts just to get to the point where they could say "BYE!" To bad for you, as I pointed out in the original post, I am not quitting I am just boycotting GW in the vain hopes that one day they will lose enough customers to understand they need to make a balanced game.
OP- Lucky Stikk. Look it up.
I swear sometimes I feel I'm the only one that actually reads the rules...
OMG!!!! I Can't believe I forgot about the LUCKY STICK! wow I am so stupid, if Only I had known about that item on ghaz he would totally be amazing.......ohh wait, he isn't allowed to take that item because he doesn't have access to Ork Relics. So if your an ork player and have been doing that you are cheating.
I swear sometimes I feel I'm the only one that actually reads the rules...
Are you suggesting that you give Ghaz the Lucky Stikk?
Really dude, the internet is hopeless... WAAAGH Council: Give it to one of the Warbosses in Mega armour or the big mek in MA.
And that warboss or Big Mek has a 2+ rerollable, NOT a 2++ rerollable, and doesn't benefit ghaz at all except to give him +1 WS
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also
This is what I said
The fact that you even suggest using Ghaz is hilarious, can you think of another LoW that can die to sweeping advance? For that matter can you think of a single LoW that still swings at Initiative 1 without having a D weapon?
This is what you said Byte
Kinda hard to be swept when you have a 2++ rerollable with FNP and fearless with Graznik and two other warbosses and a luckystick. I can see trying to "help" you is pointless. Just give up the game. Try checkers, its balanced.
Then I pointed out Ghaz never has a 2++ rerollable and you said he can have a 2++ rerollable with DLS. Then I showed you that your wrong and here we are
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh and a side note, Its Grotsnik not Graznik.
I truly cannot understand what these venting threads are supposed to achieve. Is it just to make everyone notice you're quitting or some sort of therapeutical engagement?
Neither can I fathom what people think complaining about the game (especially if you've quit ages ago/don't even play) will actually do, aside from create negative content no one enjoying the game is interested in to read in it's own subforum.
GW is currently doing massive leaps in order to improve many things as we have concretically seen, and recovering from a Kirby led age of bad decisions. They are also currently communicating, so why not communicate your shortcomings to them directly instead, since then, you know, you might actually affect something.
I swear sometimes I feel I'm the only one that actually reads the rules...
Are you suggesting that you give Ghaz the Lucky Stikk?
Really dude, the internet is hopeless...
WAAAGH Council: Give it to one of the Warbosses in Mega armour or the big mek in MA.
And that warboss or Big Mek has a 2+ rerollable, NOT a 2++ rerollable, and doesn't benefit ghaz at all except to give him +1 WS
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also
This is what I said
The fact that you even suggest using Ghaz is hilarious, can you think of another LoW that can die to sweeping advance? For that matter can you think of a single LoW that still swings at Initiative 1 without having a D weapon?
This is what you said Byte
Kinda hard to be swept when you have a 2++ rerollable with FNP and fearless with Graznik and two other warbosses and a luckystick. I can see trying to "help" you is pointless. Just give up the game. Try checkers, its balanced.
Then I pointed out Ghaz never has a 2++ rerollable and you said he can have a 2++ rerollable with DLS. Then I showed you that your wrong and here we are
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh and a side note, Its Grotsnik not Graznik.
Just do yourself a favor and quit. You really dont come across as someone pleasant to play anyways. I imagine a lot of pouting and fit throwing.
Nothing says the DLS doesn't/can't affect the squad. It says saves "they" make. Not "he, the bearer, the model" makes. So until GW decides to clarify (like grenades and bombs in CC). It should be played RAW. But, since your done. Should'nt be a concern for you.
Runic wrote: I truly cannot understand what these venting threads are supposed to achieve. Is it just to make everyone notice you're quitting or some sort of therapeutical engagement?
Neither can I fathom what people think complaining about the game (especially if you've quit ages ago/don't even play) will actually do, aside from create negative content no one enjoying the game is interested in to read in it's own subforum.
GW is currently doing massive leaps in order to improve many things as we have concretically seen, and recovering from a Kirby led age of bad decisions. They are also currently communicating, so why not communicate your shortcomings to them directly instead, since then, you know, you might actually affect something.
What it does do is see if there are other people of like mind in the community, possibly starting a general boycott movement that will force GW to either engage in actual change to the current company policy or lose business to the point where it affects them.
As far as your comment that they are making "massive leaps in order to improve many things" well no they aren't. They released a FAQ they used to do this fairly regularly, its been years since they did it. So they are just going back to the previous status quo. And the other things they are doing? like releasing Get started boxes? Most games do that already, and the units they include are usually the worst sellers for that army, Case and point is the Ork get started box which contains a deff dread and nobz, two of the worst units in our codex.
GW needs to fix the basic rules, they need to fix the prices of their models, they need to balance the entire game out. Until that is done, they aren't doing anything massive or improving anything.
Just do yourself a favor and quit. You really dont come across as someone pleasant to play anyways. I imagine a lot of pouting and fit throwing.
Nothing says the DLS doesn't/can't affect the squad. It says saves "they" make. Not "he, the bearer, the model" makes. So until GW decides to clarify (like grenades and bombs in CC). It should be played RAW. But, since your done. Should'nt be a concern for you.
Well for starters I am not done with the game which i have said multiple times, which apparently you can't understand.
As far as DLS is concerned you are cheating blatantly. And it isn't RaW. it is however you cheating your opponent.
"In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that they make." it sure as hell doesn't say his unit can, and it literally says THE BEARER.
Runic wrote: I truly cannot understand what these venting threads are supposed to achieve. Is it just to make everyone notice you're quitting or some sort of therapeutical engagement?
Neither can I fathom what people think complaining about the game (especially if you've quit ages ago/don't even play) will actually do, aside from create negative content no one enjoying the game is interested in to read in it's own subforum.
GW is currently doing massive leaps in order to improve many things as we have concretically seen, and recovering from a Kirby led age of bad decisions. They are also currently communicating, so why not communicate your shortcomings to them directly instead, since then, you know, you might actually affect something.
What it does do is see if there are other people of like mind in the community, possibly starting a general boycott movement that will force GW to either engage in actual change to the current company policy or lose business to the point where it affects them.
As far as your comment that they are making "massive leaps in order to improve many things" well no they aren't. They released a FAQ they used to do this fairly regularly, its been years since they did it. So they are just going back to the previous status quo. And the other things they are doing? like releasing Get started boxes? Most games do that already, and the units they include are usually the worst sellers for that army, Case and point is the Ork get started box which contains a deff dread and nobz, two of the worst units in our codex.
GW needs to fix the basic rules, they need to fix the prices of their models, they need to balance the entire game out. Until that is done, they aren't doing anything massive or improving anything.
Finding other miserable "like minded" people on the internet means less than nothing... have you ever read the FB comments on the Fox News page, or Youtube comments on any video with a woman in it?
The fact that the mods here pretty much encourage these kind of threads is only reason I'll never give a dime to dakka.
I truly cannot understand what these venting posts are supposed to achieve. Is it just to make everyone notice you dislike anything negative being said about GW or some sort of baseless whining about threads you happen to dislike?
Neither can I fathom what people think complaining about complaining (especially if you don't even read the OP or thread) will actually do, aside from create negative content no one enjoying the forum is interested in to read in its own thread.
SemperMortis wrote: What it does do is see if there are other people of like mind in the community, possibly starting a general boycott movement that will force GW to either engage in actual change to the current company policy or lose business to the point where it affects them.
They have already clearly changed their policies and are changing things up.
SemperMortis wrote: As far as your comment that they are making "massive leaps in order to improve many things" well no they aren't.
They are. They have:
-Introduced new starter sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
-Introduced new starter painting sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
-Introducing a competitive rules system for Age of Sigmar, directly because of demand
-Reinstated Specialist Games
-Started content feeds on social media
-Restarted FAQ:s for their games and even drafting them
-Reopened communications with the community
-Changed the problematic Codex model into the more fluid Campaign model
-Circumvented direct downpricing of miniatures by selling things like Imperial Knight Renegade, which in practice is simply a way to sell miniatures at a discount
SemperMortis wrote: They released a FAQ they used to do this fairly regularly, its been years since they did it. So they are just going back to the previous status quo. And the other things they are doing? like releasing Get started boxes? Most games do that already,
So if something has been done before, and stopped inbetween, and is now being returned to you don't consider that change? That's the very definition of change by any stretch of logic imaginable.
SemperMortis wrote: GW needs to fix the basic rules, they need to fix the prices of their models, they need to balance the entire game out. Until that is done, they aren't doing anything massive or improving anything.
I agree that these things need to be done. However doing all that in this small of a time period with the new CEO and their new winds is simply impossible, and everyone who is a realist knows that. It is clear however they aim to atleast some of this (a new revised rulebook is coming out, and the FAQs are a clear indication.)
What I got from this is they aren't doing enough for you. However, it doesn't change the fact that they aren't doing big changes, all of them something people have been asking for a long time and with a speed that seems quite fast for content of this size on a practical level. It is obvious that not everyone can truly understand the amount of people, time and resources required to make things a reality. I wish it was so, but judging by some demands it clearly isn't.
Runic wrote: I truly cannot understand what these venting threads are supposed to achieve. Is it just to make everyone notice you're quitting or some sort of therapeutical engagement?
Neither can I fathom what people think complaining about the game (especially if you've quit ages ago/don't even play) will actually do, aside from create negative content no one enjoying the game is interested in to read in it's own subforum.
GW is currently doing massive leaps in order to improve many things as we have concretically seen, and recovering from a Kirby led age of bad decisions. They are also currently communicating, so why not communicate your shortcomings to them directly instead, since then, you know, you might actually affect something.
What it does do is see if there are other people of like mind in the community, possibly starting a general boycott movement that will force GW to either engage in actual change to the current company policy or lose business to the point where it affects them.
As far as your comment that they are making "massive leaps in order to improve many things" well no they aren't. They released a FAQ they used to do this fairly regularly, its been years since they did it. So they are just going back to the previous status quo. And the other things they are doing? like releasing Get started boxes? Most games do that already, and the units they include are usually the worst sellers for that army, Case and point is the Ork get started box which contains a deff dread and nobz, two of the worst units in our codex.
GW needs to fix the basic rules, they need to fix the prices of their models, they need to balance the entire game out. Until that is done, they aren't doing anything massive or improving anything.
Just do yourself a favor and quit. You really dont come across as someone pleasant to play anyways. I imagine a lot of pouting and fit throwing.
Nothing says the DLS doesn't/can't affect the squad. It says saves "they" make. Not "he, the bearer, the model" makes. So until GW decides to clarify (like grenades and bombs in CC). It should be played RAW. But, since your done. Should'nt be a concern for you.
Well for starters I am not done with the game which i have said multiple times, which apparently you can't understand.
As far as DLS is concerned you are cheating blatantly. And it isn't RaW. it is however you cheating your opponent.
"In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that they make." it sure as hell doesn't say his unit can, and it literally says THE BEARER.
"In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that they make."
So it should read, "In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that he/the model makes." It doesn't.
-Introduced new starter sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
They have been doing this for years, they just called it by a different name an it wasn't as effective. BlackReach and that nonsense are New User sets.
-Introduced new starter painting sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
They have released painting sets forever, simply by putting "new starter" in front of it doesn't make it new, it just means they have a "New" label.
-Introducing a competitive rules system for Age of Sigmar, directly because of demand
Not a single person I know of wanted AoS, most dislike it and it has caused a rather big problem for most Fantasy communities. (That what I gather from my Fantasy friends and Dakkas fantasy players)
-Reinstated Specialist Games
They never stopped doing this to my knowledge
-Started content feeds on social media
So they caught up to current tech, that is supposed to be a change? They also started using the internet to about 2 decades ago.
-Restarted FAQ:s for their games and even drafting them
This they have done, but realistically they should never have stopped. That whole BS about them being a modelling company and not a gaming company really agitated me.
-Reopened communications with the community
We have yet to see how true this is, by asking our opinion that does not mean they are actually listening. It is very easy to open up a facebook page and then just simply ignore it.
-Changed the problematic Codex model into the more fluid Campaign model
False, horribly utterly false. I don't know that many people who want to do away with codex's and switch to campaign's instead.
-Circumvented direct downpricing of miniatures by selling things like Imperial Knight Renegade, which in practice is simply a way to sell miniatures at a discount
They have been doing bundles forever, this doesn't make it any better though. Usually they lump in something you don't want or they only reduce the price by 5%
So it should read, "In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that he/the model makes." It doesn't.
That is such a horrible interpretation of the English language that it is laughable. You actually accused me earlier of being a WAAC/TFG player....and your the one that is turning a well written rule inside out to make it look like it benefits the entire unit when it is clearly intended (and written as such) to only benefit the wielder.
SemperMortis wrote: What it does do is see if there are other people of like mind in the community, possibly starting a general boycott movement that will force GW to either engage in actual change to the current company policy or lose business to the point where it affects them.
They have already clearly changed their policies and are changing things up.
SemperMortis wrote: As far as your comment that they are making "massive leaps in order to improve many things" well no they aren't.
They are. They have:
-Introduced new starter sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
-Introduced new starter painting sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
-Introducing a competitive rules system for Age of Sigmar, directly because of demand
-Reinstated Specialist Games
-Started content feeds on social media
-Restarted FAQ:s for their games and even drafting them
-Reopened communications with the community
-Changed the problematic Codex model into the more fluid Campaign model
-Circumvented direct downpricing of miniatures by selling things like Imperial Knight Renegade, which in practice is simply a way to sell miniatures at a discount
SemperMortis wrote: They released a FAQ they used to do this fairly regularly, its been years since they did it. So they are just going back to the previous status quo. And the other things they are doing? like releasing Get started boxes? Most games do that already,
So if something has been done before, and stopped inbetween, and is now being returned to you don't consider that change? That's the very definition of change by any stretch of logic imaginable.
SemperMortis wrote: GW needs to fix the basic rules, they need to fix the prices of their models, they need to balance the entire game out. Until that is done, they aren't doing anything massive or improving anything.
I agree that these things need to be done. However doing all that in this small of a time period with the new CEO and their new winds is simply impossible, and everyone who is a realist knows that. It is clear however they aim to atleast some of this (a new revised rulebook is coming out, and the FAQs are a clear indication.)
What I got from this is they aren't doing enough for you. However, it doesn't change the fact that they aren't doing big changes, all of them something people have been asking for a long time and with a speed that seems quite fast for content of this size on a practical level. It is obvious that not everyone can truly understand the amount of people, time and resources required to make things a reality. I wish it was so, but judging by some demands it clearly isn't.
Runic, this is the feeling I got as well. Until GW hand delivers a good Ork codex free of charge and a check for all the models he bought, Semper will never be happy.
Runic wrote: I truly cannot understand what these venting threads are supposed to achieve. Is it just to make everyone notice you're quitting or some sort of therapeutical engagement?
Neither can I fathom what people think complaining about the game (especially if you've quit ages ago/don't even play) will actually do, aside from create negative content no one enjoying the game is interested in to read in it's own subforum.
GW is currently doing massive leaps in order to improve many things as we have concretically seen, and recovering from a Kirby led age of bad decisions. They are also currently communicating, so why not communicate your shortcomings to them directly instead, since then, you know, you might actually affect something.
What it does do is see if there are other people of like mind in the community, possibly starting a general boycott movement that will force GW to either engage in actual change to the current company policy or lose business to the point where it affects them.
As far as your comment that they are making "massive leaps in order to improve many things" well no they aren't. They released a FAQ they used to do this fairly regularly, its been years since they did it. So they are just going back to the previous status quo. And the other things they are doing? like releasing Get started boxes? Most games do that already, and the units they include are usually the worst sellers for that army, Case and point is the Ork get started box which contains a deff dread and nobz, two of the worst units in our codex.
GW needs to fix the basic rules, they need to fix the prices of their models, they need to balance the entire game out. Until that is done, they aren't doing anything massive or improving anything.
Just do yourself a favor and quit. You really dont come across as someone pleasant to play anyways. I imagine a lot of pouting and fit throwing.
Nothing says the DLS doesn't/can't affect the squad. It says saves "they" make. Not "he, the bearer, the model" makes. So until GW decides to clarify (like grenades and bombs in CC). It should be played RAW. But, since your done. Should'nt be a concern for you.
Well for starters I am not done with the game which i have said multiple times, which apparently you can't understand.
As far as DLS is concerned you are cheating blatantly. And it isn't RaW. it is however you cheating your opponent.
"In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that they make." it sure as hell doesn't say his unit can, and it literally says THE BEARER.
"In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that they make."
So it should read, "In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that he/the model makes." It doesn't.
Byte, you're grasping at straws. That is absolutely not RAI and if you tried to play that, most people would laugh at you/refuse to play that.
Byte wrote: I'll put it up to my group and figure it out. I've been playing 40k for 20 years. The rules are written for exclusion. Its what they don't say. Anyway no reason to labor the point. Our meta will make a ruling, no big deal. One of our members runs the tournies at one of our stores so we'll get it ironed out.
The OP is right. Orks are worthless. He should burn his.
Don't be bloody stupid. Burning them is a childish thing to do. If anything, box them up for storage, sell them on eBay or donate them to a gaming club. Then find something else to do with your time.
SemperMortis wrote: As far as your comment that they are making "massive leaps in order to improve many things" well no they aren't.
They are. They have:
-Introduced new starter sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier -Introduced new starter painting sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier -Introducing a competitive rules system for Age of Sigmar, directly because of demand -Reinstated Specialist Games -Started content feeds on social media -Restarted FAQ:s for their games and even drafting them -Reopened communications with the community -Changed the problematic Codex model into the more fluid Campaign model -Circumvented direct downpricing of miniatures by selling things like Imperial Knight Renegade, which in practice is simply a way to sell miniatures at a discount
You realise none of this matters when the game is a pile of gak?
40k is a complete fustercluck right now. All of the above is moot until they fix the game.
SemperMortis wrote: As far as your comment that they are making "massive leaps in order to improve many things" well no they aren't.
They are. They have:
-Introduced new starter sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
-Introduced new starter painting sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
-Introducing a competitive rules system for Age of Sigmar, directly because of demand
-Reinstated Specialist Games
-Started content feeds on social media
-Restarted FAQ:s for their games and even drafting them
-Reopened communications with the community
-Changed the problematic Codex model into the more fluid Campaign model
-Circumvented direct downpricing of miniatures by selling things like Imperial Knight Renegade, which in practice is simply a way to sell miniatures at a discount
You realise none of this matters when the game is a pile of gak?
40k is a complete fustercluck right now. All of the above is moot until they fix the game.
You're right, forget everything they've done. Double down on Formation powers, raise prices by 100%, and shut down Specialist games. That'll show them! COMING THIS DECEMBER, AGE OF THE EMPEROR, NOW WITH ONLY FORMATIONS AND D WEAPONS!!!
-The new starter sets are different than the ones before and only include easy to assemble kits that are also pre-undercoated. They are vastly different from the old ones and clearly there is more effort with beginners in mind.
-There is also a new Dark Vengeance Style box coming, with more simplified rules than before from which new players can more easily transfer to the full game.
-People you know not liking Age of Sigmar doesn't alter the fact it is going through change.
-Specialist Games was infact shut down years ago, you must've missed it then.
-Content feeds weren't there before, now they are. That is a change, despite it being common.
-"They should've or shouldn't have done it" - is besides the point. The FAQs are a recent change all the same.
-There is already evidence that they are listening, feel free to read up on the FAQ posts and their results, and why they made the FAQ in the first place.
-The Codex problem has been discussed for years, I don't know why or how you've missed it. Campaign format eliminates most of the issues with the Codex format.
-They have done bundles before. They have rarely sold miniatures at a 40% discount (which is what you have in some of the bundles today.) The bundles have better value than before.
It seems to me you are argumenting that the factual changes wouldn't be changes because them somehow not counting as change, in your opinion;
1. I present to you that Age of Sigmar is an example of change, since it has incoming competitive rules because of demand, it has even been stated it is done because of demand.
2. You answer with "no one I know even likes Age of Sigmar." That is completely besides the point and the topic itself. Someone not liking Age of Sigmar doesn't affect it going through a change in any way.
But it is clear to me that you interpret everything they are doing as standing for nothing, and also answer with views that havent got much to do with the original point itself. Therefore it seems to me discussing the matter is not of much use. You are entitled to your view and opinion. Seeing that quote above makes me content that putting Grimtuff on ignore 7 months ago was a good decision. He is ofcourse, entitled to his opinion.
-Introduced new starter sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
They have been doing this for years, they just called it by a different name an it wasn't as effective. BlackReach and that nonsense are New User sets.
-Introduced new starter painting sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
They have released painting sets forever, simply by putting "new starter" in front of it doesn't make it new, it just means they have a "New" label.
The new starter sets are designed for a market GW has never targeted (toy stores) at a different price point, and include the model, paint, and paintbrush -- everything someone needs other than cutters. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't, but GW should get credit for trying.
-Introducing a competitive rules system for Age of Sigmar, directly because of demand
Not a single person I know of wanted AoS, most dislike it and it has caused a rather big problem for most Fantasy communities. (That what I gather from my Fantasy friends and Dakkas fantasy players)
It doesn't change that by many accounts, Fantasy had terrible sales, AoS is a relatively better seller for a lot of stores, and most importantly, that GW listened and is making changes into the next iteration of the game (like adding in points back into the game). I know this is a pointless circular argument and that just ends some people who hate AoS versus some people who like it, but again, GW should be credited for listening. It's better than the alternative, right?
So I guess the agreement is to burn a random GW model box? (contents may vary...) To appease the rage-quit gods?
Well, there is much gaming happiness out there so I can afford to "take a break" from GW and see if they improve their situation to my liking at some later date.
Talizvar wrote: Well, there is much gaming happiness out there so I can afford to "take a break" from GW and see if they improve their situation to my liking at some later date.
I'd say there is not a more sensible and civil way to go about it. This might be a bit funny, but it's an internet forum and I feel like saying kudos for something this reasonable.
"In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that they make."
So it should read, "In addition, the BEARER can choose to re-roll any failed to hit or to wound rolls or saving throws that he/the model makes." It doesn't.
NOPE.
"They" here refers to the Singular They:
Singular they is the use in English of the pronoun they, or its inflected or derivative forms, such as them, their, themself, or themselves, as a gender-neutral pronoun to refer to a single person or an antecedent that is grammatically singular. It typically occurs with an antecedent of indeterminate gender, as in sentences such as:
"Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Would they please collect it?"[1]
"The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay."[2]
"But a journalist should not be forced to reveal their sources."[2]
Note pronoun/antecedent agreement. Antecedent is "Bearer" and pronoun (singular) is "They." "The Unit" is not referred, and therefore is not the antecedent.
Byte wrote: Thanks for the cut and paste. Already saw all that jibber jabber blah blah. That still doesn't explain how magically only one grenade can be used in the assualt phase. Do we really know what GW means. No. Even with the jibber jabber blah blah.
As I already indicated, the issue is resolved. Ill go back and edit my posts as to not clutter the thread. As it doesnt seem people actually read through them.
Pronoun/antecedent agreement is not jibber jabber. It's pronoun/antecedent agreement.
Not sure why that's tough to understand. It is not to me.
No, that does not refer to grenades, only your false claim on DLS.
GW will issue an update on the FAQs soon. Then we will know if it is an errata in FAQ clothing or whether they will go back to multiples.
Byte wrote: I'll put it up to my group and figure it out. I've been playing 40k for 20 years. The rules are written for exclusion. Its what they don't say. Anyway no reason to labor the point. Our meta will make a ruling, no big deal. One of our members runs the tournies at one of our stores so we'll get it ironed out.
The OP is right. Orks are worthless. He should burn his.
Don't be bloody stupid. Burning them is a childish thing to do. If anything, box them up for storage, sell them on eBay or donate them to a gaming club. Then find something else to do with your time.
Stupid? Rude much? The internet make you forget your manners? No reason to not keep it civil.
Suggesting that someone burn all their stuff because the game isn't to their liking IS bloody stupid. There's nothing rude about what I just said there.
I like how one guy burned his minis and it became a crown argument for GW lemings when faced with a critique of the game. "Orks are crap, I stop giving GW money" - answer, burn your minis lololol. It's a bit boorish, isn't it?
Why burn your models? Like wow shock and short term factors are great but long term you spent all that money just for a pretty fire?
If you must make a dent, put them up for sale. Not only do you cut your losses as opposed to lose all your money, but someone else gets your models to use as they enjoy the hobby and GW doesn't get your money (which I assume is the intent of burning stuff)
I believe, that as a customer, I should be presented with all the armies with either a) a warning that some of them aren't competitive or b) the strong attempt on the side of the company to have all armies possess a strong chance of winning, in a vacuum. My aesthetics choices in choosing one or other variety of tiny toy soldier to spend a shedload of money on should not punish or elevate me when playing the game they are designed to be used in.
As it stands, that is very far from the truth. Whilst 'tiers' have always existed, whilst 'codex creep' can also be said to have always existed, right now the Orks are bitterly bad in the current rules. GW can and should be doing better than this, and I believe much of the blame lies on letting all the genies out of the bottles in terms of D weapons and spammable options on elite armies, with a strong emphasis on shooting, leaving the horde armies, with a strong emphasis on melee, to suffer. Coupled with the obnoxiously awful ork codex (hi, we're going to take a 3 editions old codex and nerf it to gak, because someone complained about nob bikers 8 years ago...) and most especially the disgusting change to the mob rule, is it honestly any wonder Ork players are peevish?
If timmy and jonny walk into GW and spend their hard earned pocket money on an army each and timmy got army X and jonny got army Y, given that timmy and jonny are equally skilled players, there should be a near-to balanced number of wins, loses and draws, based on the codices, rules and sway of scenario/terrain/other random influences.
I don't think having a screaming meltdown is the answer, I don't think abandoning the games and minis is either, but sharing your opinions, frustrations and suggestions with GW politely might yield better results. They do seem to be taking baby steps back into the light after hiding in their bunker for the last 10 years, so lets encourage them to open a dialogue.
As to those piling on the OP with criticism, I'm also the owner of an ork army and share his great disappointment, having watched my years of modeling, converting and painting reduced to showing up to be the npc targets for some heroic types who are just autoplaying. Its frustrating, its also not a case of being a bad player or hating the game, we want to play the game, we thought we could, we spent a large amount of money and dedication on the armies to do so and then get offered product that fails very badly to meet our expectations, whilst those around us who made other, purely aesthetic initial choices, get dramatically more in-game potential.
We are often told the 'balanced' game is impossible, but the 'more balanced' game shouldn't be, and right now we are a long way off that.
Runic wrote:GW is currently doing massive leaps in order to improve many things as we have concretically seen, and recovering from a Kirby led age of bad decisions.
It seems the "blame Kirby for everything" trend has hit hard among the lines of GW apologists. The same people who one or two years ago were saying literally "everything is fine, nothing is broken". Hardly a surprising change of narrative anyway, it was to be expected.
Now let's see those "massive leaps".
Introduced new starter sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
Virtually what every other model company does and has been doing for years and decades.
Introduced new starter painting sets for new hobbyists to get into the hobby easier
You mean the twenty-five years old kits with pots of paint that will barely allow "new hobbyists" to give said kits three basic colors? Because first, they aren't really cheap products to begin with, and second, they're being marketed as toys and sold in toy shops.
Introducing a competitive rules system for Age of Sigmar, directly because of demand
Wasn't Age of Sigmar a non-competitive game, meant for True Hobbyists(TM) willing to forge the narrative as hard as neccesary? Wasn't the non-inclusion of a points system hailed as a great move by GW barely a year ago? Has the Narrative(TM) changed already on that matter?
With points or without them, AoS is still a turd of a game. Dead on arrival. The community has moved on and won't likely come back.
Reinstated Specialist Games
I'm curious about this. Could you tell me where I can find those reinstated "Specialist Games" in GW's website? Thanks in advance.
Started content feeds on social media
2016 here. Are you truly serious about this being a "massive leap"?
Restarted FAQ:s for their games and even drafting them
Releasing FAQs for their own games, something virtually every games company out there does, is meant to be another "massive leap"?
Reopened communications with the community
Same response as "started content feeds on social media".
Changed the problematic Codex model into the more fluid Campaign model
Completely subjective statement. In any case, the switch has done nothing to improve the absurdly bloated mess that 40k has become, as the Campaign books keep piling more formations and special rules on top of more formations and special rules, while the core issues of the game are left unnatended.
Circumvented direct downpricing of miniatures by selling things like Imperial Knight Renegade, which in practice is simply a way to sell miniatures at a discount
The discounts are nice. Also pretty much every other company does it, and has been doing it for years and years.
In short,
Azreal13 wrote: Evidently one man's "great lengths" or "massive leaps" is many other's "bare minimum."
The only way I can understand someone calling all these baby steps "massive leaps" is to live in some sort of bubble where only GW exists, so when GW (with the water up to their necks) starts doing pretty much what every other model company has been - quite successfully - doing for years, we're supposed to drop any kind of complaining or negative remarks to everything they've done wrong and keep doing wrong. Their rules are still gak, their prices - discounted or not - are still too high.
You're doing the same thing as the guy before, and argumenting that change isn't change or doesn't count as such because it doesn't appease you personally. You seem like one of the people who would never be happy with the game in the end, no matter what was done to it. It's evident by the fact that no improvement counts as such for you. That also tells me you already know what you've decided and your view won't be changed.
Be unhappy about GW and their changes, I hope you get something out of it I guess.
It doesn't matter if you accept it or not or don't see it, that's the way it is still. I have nothing more to add, as what I say is true and perceivable by anyone and simply a fact. I see no reason to continue when I have been stating what is factually correct to beginwith. You won't accept it as a fact despite it being so, that means an impasse.
GW has changed a lot of stuff and almost all of it is something people have been asking for. Period.
Crimson Devil wrote: GW has burned a lot of bridges over the last several years and not everyone is forgiving as you seem to be.
The thing is, that some are reading too much into it. I haven't stated anything about forgiveness, or if something is a common practice by default these days, or not. I am completely aware that the moves done by GW are commonpractice for many competitors.
I have stated GW has done big changes, and most of them are something people have been asking for.
Crimson Devil wrote: Lets be real Runic, who've never been very critical of GW regardless of their actions.
I do not understand what you mean/are after with this. Does a persons standing somehow affect factually perceivable details, such as change in a companys behaviour? I can't even begin to imagine someone not seeing all the altered approaches they have taken compared to say, 1,5 years ago. Come on, it's obvious. I already articulated as clearly as possible, that I am simply stating that GW has made big changes, and most of them things that people have been asking for.
I refuse to be sidetracked. Continously repeating a correct statement hardly does anything. It doesn't change the reality of clearly perceivable changes made by the company, and it also doesn't change the opinion of someone who has made up their mind and refuse to acknowledge what is crystal clear. Therefore I have nothing more to add. Some see the changes, some don't/refuse to acknowledge them and that's pretty much that.
Still too little, too late.
And forgiving them, to turn 40k in a mess, and dumping more crapy rules on it, as well as killing my first and favourite system?
Never.
I believe in 2nd chances. Not in.... 10th chances.
I don't know why people get their knickers in a twist when someone wants to burn their army. I couldn't give two feths about the money I might get selling them, to me it's all the same if they are on ebay, in the trash can or on a funeral pyre, the fire is just more entertaining.
If I ever reach the point where I decide to throw in the towel and get rid of all my models I'll probably burn them just for the fun of it.
Crimson Devil wrote: Lets be real Runic, who've never been very critical of GW regardless of their actions.
I do not understand what you mean/are after with this. Does a persons standing somehow affect factually perceivable details, such as change in a companys behaviour? I can't even begin to imagine someone not seeing all the altered approaches they have taken compared to say, 1,5 years ago. Come on, it's obvious. I already articulated as clearly as possible, that I am simply stating that GW has made big changes, and most of them things that people have been asking for.
I refuse to be sidetracked. Continously repeating a correct statement hardly does anything. It doesn't change the reality of clearly perceivable changes made by the company, and it also doesn't change the opinion of someone who has made up their mind and refuse to acknowledge what is crystal clear. Therefore I have nothing more to add. Some see the changes, some don't/refuse to acknowledge them and that's pretty much that.
Sorry but making a face book page and then saying they better be nice comments or your banned isn't a big change, they don't want to hear complaints now anymore than they did in 2004 when they closed their forums down.
These are small half arsed changes and that's being generous.
Talizvar wrote: Well, there is much gaming happiness out there so I can afford to "take a break" from GW and see if they improve their situation to my liking at some later date.
I'd say there is not a more sensible and civil way to go about it. This might be a bit funny, but it's an internet forum and I feel like saying kudos for something this reasonable.
Thanks for the kind words.
If it were not for Fantasy Flight games, I would probably be trying to pound on GW to give me the "good" game I want/need/require... so I am no saint. I do admit from your observation we do tend to see many strong words about people and companies to do with our hobby.
I think it stems from looking forward to hobby/play time after the work week and experiencing some disappointment due to rules or misunderstandings with other players.
Any whining/complaining from me in other postings is because having experienced 40k since 2nd edition I can see a multitude of means to tighten up balance a bit and still have GW sell those all important models.
Plus I tend to get upset when postings like this "I am done." is greeted with "Great! We didn't want you anyway!" which does not lead to a very inclusive community.
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: I don't know why people get their knickers in a twist when someone wants to burn their army.
It reminds me of when the PS4 launched and people would smash the newly purchased system in front of everyone lined-up.
A trolling of sorts?
Cutting off your nose to spite your face?
Showing how little an object of desire means to you in front of those who DO care?
I roll that behavior in with those who enjoy spreading unhappiness in the world for giggles.
Sorry but making a Facebook page and then saying they better be nice comments or your banned isn't a big change, they don't want to hear complaints now any more than they did in 2004 when they closed their forums down.
These are small half arsed changes and that's being generous.
I'd say they have better things to do than micro-manage dickish comments from trolls/people. If you have a complaint, write a letter/email. Depending on your manner of communication, they may or may not address it. It's no different from being on here. Rule #1 is BE POLITE.
Further to that, you can't please everyone, but you can certainly try.
Sorry but making a Facebook page and then saying they better be nice comments or your banned isn't a big change, they don't want to hear complaints now any more than they did in 2004 when they closed their forums down.
These are small half arsed changes and that's being generous.
I'd say they have better things to do than micro-manage dickish comments from trolls/people. If you have a complaint, write a letter/email. Depending on your manner of communication, they may or may not address it. It's no different from being on here. Rule #1 is BE POLITE.
Further to that, you can't please everyone, but you can certainly try.
This. I'm sure 50% of the comments on GW would be either "Suck my ****" or posting illicit pictures. A company doesn't want bad comments on it's Facebook? Ohhhh nooo!!
Talizvar wrote: Plus I tend to get upset when postings like this "I am done." is greeted with "Great! We didn't want you anyway!" which does not lead to a very inclusive community.
+1 to this
I would like to add, that usually when someone is quitting the hobby -- it's not because their army just got nurfed. That may be an excuse, but usually there is a long line of underlying currents and that's the trigger that broke the camels back.
Crimson Devil wrote: Lets be real Runic, who've never been very critical of GW regardless of their actions.
I do not understand what you mean/are after with this. Does a persons standing somehow affect factually perceivable details, such as change in a companys behaviour? I can't even begin to imagine someone not seeing all the altered approaches they have taken compared to say, 1,5 years ago. Come on, it's obvious. I already articulated as clearly as possible, that I am simply stating that GW has made big changes, and most of them things that people have been asking for.
I refuse to be sidetracked. Continously repeating a correct statement hardly does anything. It doesn't change the reality of clearly perceivable changes made by the company, and it also doesn't change the opinion of someone who has made up their mind and refuse to acknowledge what is crystal clear. Therefore I have nothing more to add. Some see the changes, some don't/refuse to acknowledge them and that's pretty much that.
You have made a habit of defending GW regardless of their actions and you seem to get off on being condescending. Add those together and few will take your argument seriously regardless of whether you're right or wrong about the subject.
GW's recent behavior could imply a long term change. We simply don't know. What i can tell you is GW has used up almost all my trust with them. So it will take some time and more good actions on their part before I give them the benefit of the doubt again. For some fans it's already too late.
To the OP, I think Orks are pretty balanced for 30k, and fluffy too. Try giving that a shot? It's way more fun and balanced and got me back into the hobby after giving up on 40k over a year ago.
I get the OP's frustration here, the rules don't match the fluff with Orcs, and losing all the time begins to suck very quickly.I've just started a CSM warband, so it seems I'm also on a hiding to nothing as everyone here says they are currently a bit pants. So why bother? Why not?
I've only recently got back into painting 40K stuff. If the rules are really crap, I'll use older rules, it's not worth the anguish otherwise.
@Ace from Outer Space - You can play your CSM warband against my blood angels, or the OP's Orks, and have a great time
Fighting the Eldar with Orks can feel a little like trying to go up against Legolas in an LoTR movie. Yeah, I get it -- that doesn't make for much of a game.
The reality in 40k for people who actually play it is that if you want to play a weaker faction against one of the strongest ones, it's up to the players to sort it out. If that isn't acceptable as a starting point, 40k isn't the right game for you. That's neither in defense of nor attack on GW's way of doing things; it's just the reality for the perceivable future.
Personally? I don't mind at all, because it's not like a computer game where the parameters (or rules) are fixed. It's a tabletop game where my opponent is going to be 3 feet away from me, and either he or she is someone whom I may agree on an enjoyable game with, or they aren't someone I want to play a game with anyways.
@Crimson Devil - Nahhhhh.... I'm the one who tends to defend most of what GW does
Mostly because when I look online at forums, a huge percentage of the people who attack GW do so because they don't like the price of the models or GW's attitude towards them.
From my perspective, the price of the models are fine as an absolute dollar amount, in terms of how much enjoyment I derive per dollar, and they are also fine when compared to the price of alternative, comparable collections like ones by Privateer Press. Again, just my perspective, I have never felt that GW didn't care about me (quite to the contrary), but frankly, all I really need out of a gaming company to give them my money is a really awesome models, decent customer service, and an enjoyable game.
In a similar way, I'll play a MMORPG with awesome graphics and mediocre gameplay, or one with mediocre graphics and awesome gameplay, and enjoy both. If the company falls short of my expectations, I'm not going to bash them -- I'll just go spend my time on something else, and if they come out with something I like in the future, maybe I'll buy that. The computer game isn't my entire life, so I won't scream that my 10,000 hour elvish hero is now a waste of my life and that I hate the company forever. I just look at it as, I've enjoyed 10,000 hours, and now, time to move to something else.
I get that some other people have different tabletop gaming priorities than me -- to me, the models are absolutely the most important thing, and the lore, second -- and that they, like the OP, are just done with GW, because what they want they haven't been able to get out of GW for a long time. Really, for these people, NOTHING, GW could do would repair that relationship. What GW is trying to do is make people who are receptive to their products and who like their games and models a little happier, and to that end, I think what they have been doing recently is a net positive. It should result in a lower rate of attrition of players to other games, and some of the initiatives (like more boardgames or build+paint sets) may even result in some new customers.
Sorry but making a Facebook page and then saying they better be nice comments or your banned isn't a big change, they don't want to hear complaints now any more than they did in 2004 when they closed their forums down.
These are small half arsed changes and that's being generous.
I'd say they have better things to do than micro-manage dickish comments from trolls/people. If you have a complaint, write a letter/email. Depending on your manner of communication, they may or may not address it. It's no different from being on here. Rule #1 is BE POLITE.
Further to that, you can't please everyone, but you can certainly try.
This. I'm sure 50% of the comments on GW would be either "Suck my ****" or posting illicit pictures. A company doesn't want bad comments on it's Facebook? Ohhhh nooo!!
Well if they hadn't mishandled their long term customers so atrociously they wouldn't be faced with such hostility in the first place, they burnt the bridges not the customers.
If they ever hope to get out of this massive hole they dug themselves they need to eat some crow, better would be an apology.
Gamers have long memories ex GW customers won't forget how they were treated just because they made a face book page.
@Crimson Devil - Nahhhhh.... I'm the one who tends to defend most of what GW does
Yes you are one of GW's staunchest defenders and I disagree with you on a lot things. I've never seen you be a deliberate dick to anybody. Exasperating as all hell, yes. But never rude.
krodarklorr wrote: To the OP: You know, I'm kind of with you. Earlier this year I went through a phase of wanting to get back into 40k, so much. I loved my 7th edition Necron codex, and wanted to start expanding my collection by a ton. I started painting a lot of my stuff, trying new lists, ext.
Then, of course, my morale starts to fall again. Another supplement for Imperial ponies with more psychic powers they don't need. Eldar and Imperials getting more stuff from Forgeworld, while Necrons remain in 5th edition as far as Forgeworld is concerned (and all of that stuff is pretty bad now. Definitely not worth the price). Tau getting, what, 2 or so supplements? The Ork supplement that was a joke, as well as the Daemon one. I'm still waiting on a Necron supplement.
Then, to further add to it, we have Death from the Skies. Two factions that either A. Have plenty of fliers (Orks) or B. Have really, really good Fliers and formations (Space Marines) both get another model that they'll try to push. Then, you have bloated rules added to a bloated game, at the cost of another 60 bucks.
Then, of course, they finally release an FAQ. Granted, some good came out of it (people can stop whining about Praetorians). But, Ghost Arks are useless and Conclave got an unnecessary nerf.
I'm sorry, but, what's keeping me into this game? Everyone at my store now has 1 or more Imperial Knights, or if their xenos, 2-3 Wraithknights/Stormsurges. We even have a few new people who seemed cool until they dropped Triptide + Doublesurge on the table. Meanwhile, I get to remember the times when I had a GC.
Seriously, though. Every day I grow closer to shelving my models again for awhile. X-wing has proven to be a lot more entertaining.
The 40K experience is primarily based on your opponent pool. If your a GT player, its min/max and face raping. Local meta may have "that guy" or group of guys. Or Moneyhammer. Exploitation/internet/cheese meta. Fluffhammer. You have to find a game that fits your local meta.
@krodarklorr: Come play with us. If someone brought a stupid build the opponent or opponents would be given plenty of heads up. Not to say we have a no cheese zone but your won't have to face it as a "pick up" scenario, i.e. invisible Knights are frowned upon. To that point we have 3 ork players and 2 CSM players that have no problem winning games. Necrons still have strong kung-fu in our meta(undefeated in our escalation league).
Not a lot of internet builds in our club. Tournament style play is for tournaments and glory hounds. There is only war here...
We play X-wing and Armada as well.
To the OP- If your looking for a auto-win button with Orks, your not getting it. Play Mealstrom, use Ghaz, use allies, stop playing WAAC players. Start asking your opponents to let you plus up your army points wise. Find the/a way to fun. Forge your narrative harder. Or don't, GW isn't going to fix it.
Heck, I'd love to find a new gaming group to play with. Even my X-wing group has become more along the lines of too competitive for my tastes.
I always find there are multiple sides to any story. This gaming club that Krodorklorr is talking about...it doesn't have one...single tournament player in it. There is maybe one guy with some Tau that admits hes pretty competitive, but even he is very easy to get along with and by no means a douche bag. Other than that, its a total mixed bag of all that GW has to offer. One thing that EVERY table seems to have..is plenty of laughter and good times.
Krokodorklorr may not have experience this, but honestly, considering that I have seen him damn near go off the deep end on a rant fest when he loses, I can see why he has problems getting into a game. When his Decurion detachment was nigh unstoppable under the rules at the time, there was no complaining.
Several members of that gaming club are members here, and seeing as how none of them are the douchebags that they are being made out to be, the didn't feel the need ro reply. I did, simply because there are other gamers from our local area they may end up with a poor impression. All gamers, regardless of experience, army, or play style are welcome. There really is only two unwritten rules at our shop:
1.Dont be a bitch when you lose.
2 Don't be a dick when you win.
Talys wrote: Mostly because when I look online at forums, a huge percentage of the people who attack GW do so because they don't like the price of the models or GW's attitude towards them.
I hear a few complaints of price but there is typically some means of shopping around and mitigating the cost.
GW's corporate "attitude" is certainly interesting but is so impersonal it is hard to get too upset unless really set on getting their attention.
Do not forgot those who remember the "bygone" days when "balance" seemed to be a game design target.
I was a modeler before I was into tabletop gaming so I can understand the "models first" viewpoint and happily for you: that is GW's present target audience.
What kept me playing 40k at first was that it was a reasonably complex game, with lots of stories fleshing out that universe.
It seemed to promise something much like the Napoleonic tabletop battles in a science fiction setting.
So from around 6th to 7th edition it just seemed too much for the completionist like me to keep up on and balance issues = "broken" to me.
<snip>
I get that some other people have different tabletop gaming priorities than me -- to me, the models are absolutely the most important thing, and the lore, second -- and that they, like the OP, are just done with GW, because what they want they haven't been able to get out of GW for a long time. Really, for these people, NOTHING, GW could do would repair that relationship. What GW is trying to do is make people who are receptive to their products and who like their games and models a little happier, and to that end, I think what they have been doing recently is a net positive. It should result in a lower rate of attrition of players to other games, and some of the initiatives (like more boardgames or build+paint sets) may even result in some new customers.
I agree we are now back to "baby steps" and they are looking promising (the new "board-game" models even have me all excited).
I think with most, all would be forgiven if they could just balance out the gosh-darn game. When I see a new GW product on the shelf and it is looking pretty and all, I think about the rules in 40k and think "why bother?".
The game gets those dusty, carefully painted models out into the world with your peers which may even brighten their day.
It is a crime that the rules do not get similar care and attention as the models do.
It is a crime that the rules do not get similar care and attention as the models do.
40k/AoS would probably be the gold standards for wargaming rules if this were the case
I really am not sure when the bygone days of balance were -- the only version of 40k that I ever recall being balanced was Rogue Trader, when we made our own lists and printed them on dot matrix printers I think that as you go back in editions, when the Internet wasn't as prevalent and people didn't share uber lists as much, imbalance was less of an issue, because strategy, listbuilding and tactics weren't instantly disseminated and dissected. I've just been ok with imbalanced factions because the people I want to play with want an enjoyable game, and therefore will accommodate, "your ork army kinda sucks so I'll take some models off". I'm actually more displeased with internal imbalance within a faction that leads to having no reason to take a model other than that it's a cool model or some to fulfill narrative.
Anyways, I just think the stuff GW has done recently -- especially the extremely detailed FAQs -- is a good start in terms of making the gaming crowd that likes 40k a bit happier.
Talys wrote: I'm actually more displeased with internal imbalance within a faction that leads to having no reason to take a model other than that it's a cool model or some to fulfill narrative.
Agreed, each should have some role or why have it... "no model gets left behind".
Especially the effort you put in, hard to justify fielding a "useless" model and it just sits on the shelf.
Anyways, I just think the stuff GW has done recently -- especially the extremely detailed FAQs -- is a good start in terms of making the gaming crowd that likes 40k a bit happier.
Like I said: baby steps.
I just wish I knew what metrics they use to determine any of these changes they make are of benefit that cannot be measured in raw sales (like the FAQ you mentioned).
Would be nice to funnel some positive feedback to them in the hopes they continue their good behavior.
Crimson Devil wrote: You have made a habit of defending GW regardless of their actions and you seem to get off on being condescending. Add those together and few will take your argument seriously regardless of whether you're right or wrong about the subject.
GW's recent behavior could imply a long term change. We simply don't know. What i can tell you is GW has used up almost all my trust with them. So it will take some time and more good actions on their part before I give them the benefit of the doubt again. For some fans it's already too late.
I have made a habit of stating things exactly the way they are. To someone who is biased to the negative, that may falsely seem like something else. The problem probably lies in said persons ability to view things in an objective an neutral light. If someone can't do it, it's not anyone elses problem. Also, if someone doesn't take a correct argument seriously it really doesn't matter to me that much. Correct is still correct in the end. And yes, I also have a hard time taking someone seriously if they are acting childishly or have a clear history of their main goal being the spreading of the negative and actively looking to annoy.
I respect respectable people, as evidenced by effortless communication with people who aren't chronically and actively spreading a negative atmosphere by vaurious, sometimes inflammatory means. I have respect for output just like Talizvar's earlier in this thread, as indicated by my post about giving him kudos. He stated his thoughts in a reasonable and calm manner, without making a dramatic, useless show of it. What a great way to communicate that he isn't currently enjoying the game, and what his next steps will be. I have no respect for knee-jerking man-tantrums, or bitter griefing. And I never will. I imagine the goal of a hobby forum is to be mainly positive, and not mainly negative, surely? Lately I have simply ignored users I find bring nothing but the negative/griefing to the table, as is everyones right on this forum. Probably the best approach all in all.
When it comes to the latter, I understand if your trust is "used up."
Sorry but making a Facebook page and then saying they better be nice comments or your banned isn't a big change, they don't want to hear complaints now any more than they did in 2004 when they closed their forums down.
These are small half arsed changes and that's being generous.
I'd say they have better things to do than micro-manage dickish comments from trolls/people. If you have a complaint, write a letter/email. Depending on your manner of communication, they may or may not address it. It's no different from being on here. Rule #1 is BE POLITE.
Further to that, you can't please everyone, but you can certainly try.
This. I'm sure 50% of the comments on GW would be either "Suck my ****" or posting illicit pictures. A company doesn't want bad comments on it's Facebook? Ohhhh nooo!!
Well if they hadn't mishandled their long term customers so atrociously they wouldn't be faced with such hostility in the first place, they burnt the bridges not the customers.
If they ever hope to get out of this massive hole they dug themselves they need to eat some crow, better would be an apology.
Gamers have long memories ex GW customers won't forget how they were treated just because they made a face book page.
You: "I can't talk trash on the GW page so their new changes are clearly complete fail"
Others: "Yeah but if they allowed that sort of thing (hint: every serious company moderates their social media) the page would be a total mess"
You: "Yeah well, they deserve it. *hmph*"
It doesn't matter what GW does for people like you, you'll always find something to bash on them about.
It doesn't matter what GW does for people like you, you'll always find something to bash on them about.
This is such a silly argument, I mean really, do you actually believe that?
GW doing positive things that people don't actually care about obviously isn't going to make those people happy.
I couldn't give a flying feth about GW's social media interaction if it doesn't lead to rules that aren't such a hideous mess.
GW have so many core problems that make people unhappy that doing a few positive periphery things are obviously going to be met with "well that's nice but I don't give a gak".
Sorry but making a Facebook page and then saying they better be nice comments or your banned isn't a big change, they don't want to hear complaints now any more than they did in 2004 when they closed their forums down.
These are small half arsed changes and that's being generous.
I'd say they have better things to do than micro-manage dickish comments from trolls/people. If you have a complaint, write a letter/email. Depending on your manner of communication, they may or may not address it. It's no different from being on here. Rule #1 is BE POLITE.
Further to that, you can't please everyone, but you can certainly try.
This. I'm sure 50% of the comments on GW would be either "Suck my ****" or posting illicit pictures. A company doesn't want bad comments on it's Facebook? Ohhhh nooo!!
Well if they hadn't mishandled their long term customers so atrociously they wouldn't be faced with such hostility in the first place, they burnt the bridges not the customers.
If they ever hope to get out of this massive hole they dug themselves they need to eat some crow, better would be an apology.
Gamers have long memories ex GW customers won't forget how they were treated just because they made a face book page.
You: "I can't talk trash on the GW page so their new changes are clearly complete fail"
Others: "Yeah but if they allowed that sort of thing (hint: every serious company moderates their social media) the page would be a total mess"
You: "Yeah well, they deserve it. *hmph*"
It doesn't matter what GW does for people like you, you'll always find something to bash on them about.
So they are trying to fix rules that a bunch of people already paid like 50 bucks for on top of their plastic costs? Fine. Golf clap. Now try making 80% of your own models NOT worthless.
Sorry but making a Facebook page and then saying they better be nice comments or your banned isn't a big change, they don't want to hear complaints now any more than they did in 2004 when they closed their forums down.
These are small half arsed changes and that's being generous.
I'd say they have better things to do than micro-manage dickish comments from trolls/people. If you have a complaint, write a letter/email. Depending on your manner of communication, they may or may not address it. It's no different from being on here. Rule #1 is BE POLITE.
Further to that, you can't please everyone, but you can certainly try.
This. I'm sure 50% of the comments on GW would be either "Suck my ****" or posting illicit pictures. A company doesn't want bad comments on it's Facebook? Ohhhh nooo!!
Well if they hadn't mishandled their long term customers so atrociously they wouldn't be faced with such hostility in the first place, they burnt the bridges not the customers.
If they ever hope to get out of this massive hole they dug themselves they need to eat some crow, better would be an apology.
Gamers have long memories ex GW customers won't forget how they were treated just because they made a face book page.
You: "I can't talk trash on the GW page so their new changes are clearly complete fail"
Others: "Yeah but if they allowed that sort of thing (hint: every serious company moderates their social media) the page would be a total mess"
You: "Yeah well, they deserve it. *hmph*"
It doesn't matter what GW does for people like you, you'll always find something to bash on them about.
No it's "I can't give honest fact based none sugar coated critique so it's a pointless effort"
I'm on the ffg forums and when they do something the community does not like they tend to listen, that's an amazing concept I know but thats the difference between a company that gives a damn and GW.
A social media page that only allows positive reinforcement is worthless because they are still ignoring valid complaints.
The remain positive -rule is there because no company has the resources to moderate tens of thousands of users inflammatory posts.
I have given them a complaint in Facebook using the message option, regarding Forgeworld flyers being unusable with the new Death From The Skies rules, and I have received a response. They stated FW is aware of this and it will be fixed, but not this instant. *kneejerk tantrum rage*
There's "GW ignoring valid complaints" trumped right there.
They received a valid complaint/complaints, they didn't ignore it, they instead acknowledged it, apologized for the inconvenience and indicated that steps are being taken. Just no way around it, stop trying.
A pointless example in the end, since it has already been trumped before by the fact they are drafting their FAQ and it's full of complaints they have already taken notice of, evidenced by actual responses.
Now someone might think this is, again, defending GW.
It's telling the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. The reason for the FB page rules is obvious, and legitimate complaints being reacted to instead of being ignored factual. That's in the now, for context. Before they did not react nor interact for a long time, publicly anyway. That is also the truth.
The "remain positive" rule has the same vibe as the requests from some users that have asked mods to "control" the negativity in this very forum: the desire of leaving any kind of public criticism out, and turn social media into a resonating eco chamber of clapping yes-men.
Which we know is how GW has worked internally for a long time.
Korinov wrote: The "remain positive" rule has the same vibe as the requests from some users that have asked mods to "control" the negativity in this very forum: the desire of leaving any kind of public criticism out, and turn social media into a resonating eco chamber of clapping yes-men.
I disagree about the desire being that extreme. To me it seems that normal, civil criticism is tolerated quite well. The other kind "criticism" -not so much. And that's good asfar as I'm concerned.
Korinov wrote: The "remain positive" rule has the same vibe as the requests from some users that have asked mods to "control" the negativity in this very forum: the desire of leaving any kind of public criticism out, and turn social media into a resonating eco chamber of clapping yes-men.
Which we know is how GW has worked internally for a long time.
Okay, try this. Go on literally any other products Facebook and scream obsenities or hurl insults at them. Tell me when you get blocked. Most negatives, when written in a polite and constructive way, still get a response from GW's design team. They do not, and should not, have to respond to comments saying "OMG YOU'RE PRICING IS TOO HIGH" or "GW SUCKS!!!"
Korinov wrote: The "remain positive" rule has the same vibe as the requests from some users that have asked mods to "control" the negativity in this very forum: the desire of leaving any kind of public criticism out, and turn social media into a resonating eco chamber of clapping yes-men.
Which we know is how GW has worked internally for a long time.
Okay, try this. Go on literally any other products Facebook and scream obsenities or hurl insults at them. Tell me when you get blocked. Most negatives, when written in a polite and constructive way, still get a response from GW's design team. They do not, and should not, have to respond to comments saying "OMG YOU'RE PRICING IS TOO HIGH" or "GW SUCKS!!!"
Yeah this -- they receive plenty of reasonable criticism, but also so so much insane and unreasonable nerd-rage... at the end of the day we're talking about toys, and the level of emotion and grudge-holding about these toys would probably be considered markers for mental illness in other walks of life.
Go to ANY business's facebook page and post the kind of vitriol you generally see from GW-haters and watch how fast it goes away.
Positive criticism is fine, negative criticism... kinda not so much.
I acknowledge the game has problems (I've played MTG at a competitive level for over 20 years; I helped playtest Sabertooth Games' 40KCCG way back when; I feel I understand game balance reasonably well).
Many of these can be solved with 'forge your own narrative', 'agree on the rules you are playing' - which is a cop-out, but a solution the rulebook itself suggests...
I think the company is moving in a positive direction. Give them time. What's the rush?
I've played since RT (around 1990). Trust me, there was brokenness way back when, too.
Cieged wrote: I've never understood threads like this. I suspect I never shall. If you're not enjoying yourself with Warhammer/GW;
1) Change something about the game or how you're playing it to facilitate fun. Or;
2) Play a different game that you find fun.
I feel my numeric list would be quite lengthy indeed before I got to, "make online thread to convince others this is unfair/unfun."
After 20 years of buying and playing I've more than earnt the right to express my displeasure at the current sorry state of the game and the company running it into the ground.
Cieged wrote: I've never understood threads like this. I suspect I never shall. If you're not enjoying yourself with Warhammer/GW;
1) Change something about the game or how you're playing it to facilitate fun. Or;
2) Play a different game that you find fun.
I feel my numeric list would be quite lengthy indeed before I got to, "make online thread to convince others this is unfair/unfun."
After 20 years of buying and playing I've more than earnt the right to express my displeasure at the current sorry state of the game and the company running it into the ground.
I would like to pointlessly interject to tell you to worship GW or gtfo.
Korinov wrote: The "remain positive" rule has the same vibe as the requests from some users that have asked mods to "control" the negativity in this very forum: the desire of leaving any kind of public criticism out, and turn social media into a resonating eco chamber of clapping yes-men.
Which we know is how GW has worked internally for a long time.
Okay, try this. Go on literally any other products Facebook and scream obsenities or hurl insults at them. Tell me when you get blocked. Most negatives, when written in a polite and constructive way, still get a response from GW's design team. They do not, and should not, have to respond to comments saying "OMG YOU'RE PRICING IS TOO HIGH" or "GW SUCKS!!!"
Yeah this -- they receive plenty of reasonable criticism, but also so so much insane and unreasonable nerd-rage... at the end of the day we're talking about toys, and the level of emotion and grudge-holding about these toys would probably be considered markers for mental illness in other walks of life.
Go to ANY business's facebook page and post the kind of vitriol you generally see from GW-haters and watch how fast it goes away.
They could have said "remain civil" or "remain polite". They went with "remain positive" instead. At this stage, we all know what GW and their apologists understand by "positive": stfu and forge the narrative harder!
They could have said "remain civil" or "remain polite". They went with "remain positive" instead. At this stage, we all know what GW and their apologists understand by "positive": stfu and forge the narrative harder!
Yeah how awful of them. You act like this constant negativity just arrived and is a fresh idea... this whine has been going on for DECADES - it's just so so tired. The original GW forums from around 20 years ago were shut down for the same reasons. It's seriously crazy... I wonder what sort of sickness (is it Nurgles Rot?) that makes someone hold onto a hateful grudge so long over --> toys.
They could have said "remain civil" or "remain polite". They went with "remain positive" instead. At this stage, we all know what GW and their apologists understand by "positive": stfu and forge the narrative harder!
Yeah how awful of them. You act like this constant negativity just arrived and is a fresh idea... this whine has been going on for DECADES - it's just so so tired. The original GW forums from around 20 years ago were shut down for the same reasons. It's seriously crazy... I wonder what sort of sickness (is it Nurgles Rot?) that makes someone hold onto a hateful grudge so long over --> toys.
Nah, my theory is its Tzeench's manipulation turning a large portion of the fanbase into complaining children so that GW will cease production thus chaos destroys the universe. We can only expect this sort of meta narrative from Tzeench... although the presence of GUOs in the fanbase does support your theory
Why do the people who lament threads like these always participate in them? How many threads never see 10 pages with almost 10K views that are more worthwhile? Honestly, love GW or hate GW, but why piss and moan and bump a thread that you don't see any worth in?
For the same reason people pop into pro - or positive GW threads to tell people how much they hate the game, the company, the models, and how they're never playing 40k again.
the_Armyman wrote: Why do the people who lament threads like these always participate in them? How many threads never see 10 pages with almost 10K views that are more worthwhile? Honestly, love GW or hate GW, but why piss and moan and bump a thread that you don't see any worth in?
We don't lament, most are apathetic, and for some people from that apathy sometimes breeds contempt, but for others revel in the malcontent felt by people miffed by GW, which I find really interesting as its something almost wholly unique to the internet. But in any case, to summize "we bump for da lulz"
It doesn't matter what GW does for people like you, you'll always find something to bash on them about.
This is such a silly argument, I mean really, do you actually believe that?
GW doing positive things that people don't actually care about obviously isn't going to make those people happy.
I couldn't give a flying feth about GW's social media interaction if it doesn't lead to rules that aren't such a hideous mess.
GW have so many core problems that make people unhappy that doing a few positive periphery things are obviously going to be met with "well that's nice but I don't give a gak".
Actually I do, do you not?
Couple of posters under yours is serial complainer Martel. 14k posts about how BA is awful and he's still here complaining.
Also you're speaking for all gamers as if you're some kind of authority. You aren't. Personally a little communication from GW makes me moderately happy. Your argument boils down to "I don't give a feth" and yet my argument is the silly one... lol?
Cruentus wrote: For the same reason people pop into pro - or positive GW threads to tell people how much they hate the game, the company, the models, and how they're never playing 40k again.
It's effectively the nerd version of 'I vape/I'm vegan."
Cruentus wrote: For the same reason people pop into pro - or positive GW threads to tell people how much they hate the game, the company, the models, and how they're never playing 40k again.
Actually, I find it much more logical that someone who likes a product spend their time defending or promoting it, than someone who doesn't like a product spend their time attacking or complaining about it. Mostly, this is because I'm a guy who likes spending time on things I like, rather than protesting things I don't like, but I guess that's just me.
Among other things, no matter how much some people groan and moan, GW isn't going out of business any time soon, nor will their company likely change in a seismic way; so someone unhappy with GW can piss their life away screaming about how awful it is to little avail... or spend the same time nurturing their chosen pastime and enjoy themselves. I understand folks who are fed up and post their displeasure, but the folks who are fed up that seem to post hundreds or thousands of posts to that effect just amazes me.
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MarsNZ wrote: Couple of posters under yours is serial complainer Martel. 14k posts about how BA is awful and he's still here complaining.
To his credit though, Martel knows what he's talking about and he's stuck with BA despite all their shortcomings
. Orks were great in 4th and 5th. Between the 5th codex and Imperial Armour 8 you can find a use for just about any model in the current line.
I wish they were competitive 
- shame, but I can see why people would leave. I've decided to stick it out, since I play only with my housemate and a select few mates, and I feel 
