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You're discounting the fact that Orks were good in 5th based on the fact that they had to take specific lists to be good but not doing the same to other armies. Try playing Space Marines competetively without using formations or allies, or Necrons without the Decurion and see what happens. The issue of monobuild armies is not exclusive to the lower-tier Codices.

What was the point of this? Everyone and their mother hates gw so it's not like a new topic, just making a thread to vent?

Meet: 40k General Discussion.

Dakka is pretty much just a staging ground for GW venting. All other threads are optional extras.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
What was the point of this? Everyone and their mother hates gw so it's not like a new topic, just making a thread to vent?

What's the point of any thread?

Don't like it, don't read it. No one is forcing you to respond.

Also, OP...we are (MAYBE) getting the green tide back. The FAQ says that OOP formations are OK. We're one clarification from confirming (or denying) that the Green Tide is "OOP", and then it'll be time for this:

People should always remember that whining about whining is whining too.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You're discounting the fact that Orks were good in 5th based on the fact that they had to take specific lists to be good but not doing the same to other armies. Try playing Space Marines competetively without using formations or allies, or Necrons without the Decurion and see what happens. The issue of monobuild armies is not exclusive to the lower-tier Codices.

Discounting the fact that orks were good in 5th....ok. The only builds that were effective in 5th was Trukk Spam, Biker spam or Kan wall (to a lesser extent) while all of these were competitive (ish) none were really out standing. And the thing was that if you didn't take those specific lists you sucked because at the end of the day Orks still sucked at Close Combat (that one phase we are supposed to dominate).

Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.

What do Orks have in comparison if we don't run our super competitive tournament list of Zhadsnark's biker mob? NOTHING, our best unit is a Range 24 Rokkit that misses 2/3rds of the time, has to be ferried around in an open topped trukk with av 10/10/10 because believe it or not, that is actually more survivable then their current set up of T4 6+ save.

SemperMortis wrote:Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.

What do Orks have in comparison if we don't run our super competitive tournament list of Zhadsnark's biker mob? NOTHING, our best unit is a Range 24 Rokkit that misses 2/3rds of the time, has to be ferried around in an open topped trukk with av 10/10/10 because believe it or not, that is actually more survivable then their current set up of T4 6+ save.

I'm sensing some unhealthy hate of Space Marines judging by the fact that you've over-simplified them and implied every list you can take is powerful.

And as I said before: House-ruling! Think about it:

-- If you're annoyed that Orks are not competitive and/or under-powered and all that, then I'm willing to bet you don't play in tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong), so House-ruling won't affect you in the competitive sense.
-- That leaves going to your FLGS for games or game with friends at a non-FLGS location.
-- -- In this case, house-ruling will not only help you with your issues with Orks being weak, but also may be the incentive to game in places where house-ruling is allowed and not frowned upon (e.g. in your own house).

Selym wrote:Meet: 40k General Discussion.

Dakka is pretty much just a staging ground for GW venting. All other threads are optional extras.

And if we expanding it to all the 40K Sub-Forums: It's GW-Hate and Missing Primarchs re-runs! haha

 IllumiNini wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.

What do Orks have in comparison if we don't run our super competitive tournament list of Zhadsnark's biker mob? NOTHING, our best unit is a Range 24 Rokkit that misses 2/3rds of the time, has to be ferried around in an open topped trukk with av 10/10/10 because believe it or not, that is actually more survivable then their current set up of T4 6+ save.

I'm sensing some unhealthy hate of Space Marines judging by the fact that you've over-simplified them and implied every list you can take is powerful.

And as I said before: House-ruling! Think about it:

-- If you're annoyed that Orks are not competitive and/or under-powered and all that, then I'm willing to bet you don't play in tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong), so House-ruling won't affect you in the competitive sense.
-- That leaves going to your FLGS for games or game with friends at a non-FLGS location.
-- -- In this case, house-ruling will not only help you with your issues with Orks being weak, but also may be the incentive to game in places where house-ruling is allowed and not frowned upon (e.g. in your own house).

Selym wrote:Meet: 40k General Discussion.

Dakka is pretty much just a staging ground for GW venting. All other threads are optional extras.

And if we expanding it to all the 40K Sub-Forums: It's GW-Hate and Missing Primarchs re-runs! haha

As far as hating space Marines? no not overly, I have no great hatred towards any player base, I noticed that a lot of TFG and WAAC players gravitate towards certain armies (Tau/Eldar/Marines) but I don't judge the book by its cover. In other words I reserve my judgement of the player and his army for AFTER the first couple games. If he plays a nice game then good for him, if he brings in 3 Wraith Knights and a fethload of Scat Bikes...well I won't bother playing against him anytime soon.

I play two types of games, Friendly pickups/schedules games and in local tournaments, I have played in a number of different locations across the entire eastern seaboard of the United States.

In all of that time I have yet to meet a player who was willing to accept house rules. Mostly because Orks are so fethed up atm they need a whole new codex worth of house rules to be playable.

At tournaments house ruling is whatever the Tourney organizer wants to do, and usually they revolve around nerfing Eldar shenanigans, Tau Shenanigans and SM Shenanigans. And at the moment the only Ork build that placed in the top 100 at the LVO was Zhadsnark's FW army of biker boyz. Ironically SM Super friends and Eldar Shenanigans placed A LOT in the top 100 with a number of different builds.

Just real quick...

If you're annoyed that Orks are not competitive and/or under-powered and all that, then I'm willing to bet you don't play in tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong)

how does that make any sense? If I am annoyed that the army I Chose isn't competitive then I probably don't go to tournaments? No it is the other way around, I am annoyed that my army is so un-competitive that when I do go to tournaments I get steam rolled.

@ SemperMortis: Fair enough. Also:

SemperMortis wrote:
Just real quick...

If you're annoyed that Orks are not competitive and/or under-powered and all that, then I'm willing to bet you don't play in tournaments (correct me if I'm wrong)

how does that make any sense? If I am annoyed that the army I Chose isn't competitive then I probably don't go to tournaments? No it is the other way around, I am annoyed that my army is so un-competitive that when I do go to tournaments I get steam rolled.

In all fairness, we don't know each other, meaning that my interpretation (despite you telling me I'm horribly wrong) wasn't an unreasonable one to make. But considering you've essentially just told us that you do attend tournaments, this point is a non-issue.


But on House-Ruling: Why not do it for your casual games?

I play with House-Rules all the time, where the only potential issue is that these house rules cannot be used at my FLGS. This issue can easily be remedied by rote learning of the rules as well as rote learning of which are house rules and which are actual rules - something that I've done myself.

Best answer I can give you is that a number of people refuse to play house rules for whatever reason. And again I mention that with how terrible the ork codex is, how terrible the supplement is, how terrible the new flyer addition is, the number of house rules required to make the average ork unit competitive against mid/top tier codex's would be enormous.

Thanks for the info, I guess.

You're not alone OP. I'll be sitting out the rest of 7th & very possibly 8th edition if the rumors are even remotely true. Word has it, 8th edition will be more of the same (doubling down on formations) and ignoring the underlying problem which is half of the armies out there need a complete revision/overhaul at the codex level. Until that is resolved, no progress can be made. At present, the point system might as well not exist. Some armies have units that cost 2-3 times the point cost of others yet have the same effectiveness. Other armies have formations that straight up give them free points, or fundamentally change the effectiveness of said army while others do not. Now GW is giving models instant death weapons at no extra cost if you are willing to spend $30.00 on a single space marine. Its just getting absurd.

SemperMortis wrote:
Best answer I can give you is that a number of people refuse to play house rules for whatever reason. And again I mention that with how terrible the ork codex is, how terrible the supplement is, how terrible the new flyer addition is, the number of house rules required to make the average ork unit competitive against mid/top tier codex's would be enormous.

So in your original post, you (justifiably) complain about the lack of competitiveness in Orks, yet are still playing them; you say you're going boycott GW even though you've heavily invested in their products in the past and say that you will continue to buy their products (albiet 2nd hand products).

And by the sounds of your other posts (including the one quoted above), even your own friends won't allow house rules and you have no apparent interest in finding or developing any house rules. You also seem to be frustrated by the very limited amount of lists you can take that allow you to win at tournaments, but apparently still play them.

So my question to you is: Why are you still playing Orks?

I don't mean any disrespect by this question, but if anything, your comments seem to suggest (to me, at least) that you're better off quitting Orks or, if you're set on Orks, you're better off quiting the modelling side of the hobby.

 IllumiNini wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Best answer I can give you is that a number of people refuse to play house rules for whatever reason. And again I mention that with how terrible the ork codex is, how terrible the supplement is, how terrible the new flyer addition is, the number of house rules required to make the average ork unit competitive against mid/top tier codex's would be enormous.

So in your original post, you (justifiably) complain about the lack of competitiveness in Orks, yet are still playing them; you say you're going boycott GW even though you've heavily invested in their products in the past and say that you will continue to buy their products (albiet 2nd hand products).

And by the sounds of your other posts (including the one quoted above), even your own friends won't allow house rules and you have no apparent interest in finding or developing any house rules. You also seem to be frustrated by the very limited amount of lists you can take that allow you to win at tournaments, but apparently still play them.

So my question to you is: Why are you still playing Orks?

I don't mean any disrespect by this question, but if anything, your comments seem to suggest (to me, at least) that you're better off quitting Orks or, if you're set on Orks, you're better off quiting the modelling side of the hobby.

I will buy GW products only from second hand purchases, IE EBAY, and here on Dakka, I am currently hunting for a 3rd party website where I can buy knockoffs because I would rather not give GW any money at all, (Im aware that 2nd hand sellers use that cash to buy more GW most of the time.)

I still play tournaments because I enjoy the challenge and I want to see if I can some how tactician my way to success. If orks got better this wouldn't lessen my enjoyment, it just means that I have a more fair footing going into the game as opposed to having to hope to mork that my opponent makes a huge blunder that I can capitalize on.

Why do I still play Orks? Simple,
1: I have spent hundreds of dollars acquiring these models, I even went as far as to purchase garbage SM models, fix them up and then sell them in order to purchase my ork units.
2: I have spent HUNDREDS of hours assembling, painting, fixing, modeling and repairing my Ork army, I never will get rid of them, on top of that I have a nice healthy dose of PTSD and this hobby actually helps me somewhat dealing with some bad days I have.
3: I hold out a glimmer of hope that either GW gets a complete and total revamp and fixes the massive underlying issues with Orks and the other low tier armies, or GW goes tits up and has to sell the game to another company that is far more competent at writing rules.

And lastly, I still play Orks because I absolutely love the fluff behind the army, the colors, the ascetics of the models and basically everything orky. I want to get a giant Ork Skull Emblem to put on my car

That is why I still collect and play my Orks. At the moment I lose more often then win, but when I do win it is all that much sweeter because at the moment I Know that my army started off with a handicap and still managed to win.

Getting back to the OP's feeling on things for gaming.
Many of us who have a bit of a love-hate going is because you may have a ton of GW models for 40k.
So when the rule-set starts sucking bad it is a huge letdown.
I liked 40k for meeting other players and hopefully make a friend here and there and have good games.

40k right now sucks for pickup games, that is just the state of things right now.

I have diversified what games I play a bit more, especially toward more competitive games so I am not dependent on GW for my fun.
They seem to have some issues figuring out where their customer needs are so until they do, I play other things.

As others have pointed out, house rules and making scenarios with friends allow 40k to still shine and I get good games in there.
Their models are good looking and still worth building and painting up as part of the hobby.

I think it is a bit unfair for others to say "stop complaining" or "are you leaving or not?", many had really good times with the game and keep hoping that feeling will be back.
Usually we have too many models to keep completely out of things and still hope against hope that GW is listening and does something about the dissatisfaction out there.

I must admit the latest changes from GW and the latest FAQ are great steps for a company that stayed largely uninvolved for years.

 Korinov wrote:
People should always remember that whining about whining is whining too.

Is meta-whining. And I don't like it!

OP, none will ever deprive you of you orks, and the time you enjoyed building them. That was the point of that time. Concerning GW, I just stopped buying new stuff from them. There is other stuff, and on ebay I find older GW that I enjoy. Khazad Guard is 200% dwarfer that the fyreslayers. Just stup giving GW money and let them rot.

SemperMortis wrote:


Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.

And then you get stomped because the formations and allies are what makes Space Marine a top-tier Codex. It'd not be as badly off as Orks, but you're still pigeonholed into a few builds if you want to swing with the big boys. If it's unfair that Orks only had three different builds during 5th then surely it's unfair that Space Marines have to spam Grav, Librarians, and Gladii to win now, no?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Try playing space Marines competitively without using formations/allies? ok. Lets see what should I do, Ohh I know, field a fething Space Marine Army! Centurions, Grav, Cheap Bikers, Sternguard, Librarian powers out the donkey.

And then you get stomped because the formations and allies are what makes Space Marine a top-tier Codex. It'd not be as badly off as Orks, but you're still pigeonholed into a few builds if you want to swing with the big boys. If it's unfair that Orks only had three different builds during 5th then surely it's unfair that Space Marines have to spam Grav, Librarians, and Gladii to win now, no?

This. Takes no bikes, give all your Tac Marines plasma, take no Flyers, no formations and you'll probably lose. SM are in a good spot, as you can run a fairly decent list without spamming, but you can also go full competitive by running the best units and formations.

All codices need this, and this is why Eldar are so hated, because every unit Eldar have are at least decent, if not great.

I would like to see a BT-compatible formation. Because even without it, BT are easy af to win with.

I feel your pain OP, that new Ork flyer and the supplements where a kick in the teeth (or should that be 'teef'?).
The simple thing is that right now GW are only concerned with catering to the big 4 armies and they are they ones getting all the fun stuff. Just stick with it, or quit. Your choice.

I just stopped playing it, not that much because of imbalance but rubbish core rules.

What made me truly consider boycotting GW though (apart from AoS ofc hreh), was the artwork in 7th edition codieces. I could take a screenshot from Relic's Space Marine game and come with a better and more characterful picture than some of the shameful, pathetic crap that makes it into the official books nowadays/ spits, kicks the dog and shouts abuse at furniture

I've been buying less and less, but the last straw was the Cadian tactical cards which were completely over-priced and unbelievably lazy. The paints and rulesets are just too expensive and lacking in quality content.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I just stopped playing it, not that much because of imbalance but rubbish core rules.

What made me truly consider boycotting GW though (apart from AoS ofc hreh), was the artwork in 7th edition codieces. I could take a screenshot from Relic's Space Marine game and come with a better and more characterful picture than some of the shameful, pathetic crap that makes it into the official books nowadays/ spits, kicks the dog and shouts abuse at furniture

Oh man, the art in newer stuff is awful, it's increasingly looking like something out of League of Legends or something from Blizzard, not the 80's-esque heavy metal gothic-ness that defines 40k art.

There is only one solution!

I would suggest holding a GW vook burning, but GW would profit...

 Vaktathi wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I just stopped playing it, not that much because of imbalance but rubbish core rules.

What made me truly consider boycotting GW though (apart from AoS ofc hreh), was the artwork in 7th edition codieces. I could take a screenshot from Relic's Space Marine game and come with a better and more characterful picture than some of the shameful, pathetic crap that makes it into the official books nowadays/ spits, kicks the dog and shouts abuse at furniture

Oh man, the art in newer stuff is awful, it's increasingly looking like something out of League of Legends or something from Blizzard, not the 80's-esque heavy metal gothic-ness that defines 40k art.

I agree, it looks like they're outsourcing to deviantart.

Grimdark wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I just stopped playing it, not that much because of imbalance but rubbish core rules.

What made me truly consider boycotting GW though (apart from AoS ofc hreh), was the artwork in 7th edition codieces. I could take a screenshot from Relic's Space Marine game and come with a better and more characterful picture than some of the shameful, pathetic crap that makes it into the official books nowadays/ spits, kicks the dog and shouts abuse at furniture

Oh man, the art in newer stuff is awful, it's increasingly looking like something out of League of Legends or something from Blizzard, not the 80's-esque heavy metal gothic-ness that defines 40k art.

I agree, it looks like they're outsourcing to deviantart.

This.

Is another sign of the fact they are cutting corners, not only in the rules development. They are pushing out so much crap that pay professionals is either too expensive, or just unfeasible (they would be overloaded) so they are producing a "good deviant art level" art.

That completely murders the tone of the setting.

To the original poster. I totally get your pain. I used to love my ork army. I played the crap out of it back in 3.5 and 4 and was very competitive (I played Kult of Speed) I never thought at the time that 4th was about the best version and most balanced rule set we would ever get. I could hold my own against any army in the game except Tau. But I was dying for a new codex to bring it up to the same level as the other newer books. My other army was Dark Eldar with the other oldest book in the game.

5th came out and it had a new ork codex. And it was worse than my Kult of Speed. And new Dark Eldar came out and it was worse than the old book too. And every other army got buffed again. My third army is CSM - but bezerker heavy because I love the Worldeaters. I bet you can see where I'm going with this.

So anyways it's been a few years since I've played. All my armies got worse and worse. I've sold off my orks that I loved. I sold off the dark eldar which were fun before. I still have my Worldeaters, but I'm thinking about packing it in forever.

I guess long story short, it has always annoyed me that army balance is so terrible in 40k. Some guys seem to have the attitude, "hey Orks are just cannon fodder, you picked that craptactular army, you need to play for fun, not wins" Funny it doesn't say that on the boxes for any ork products.

 greenskinned git wrote:
I guess long story short, it has always annoyed me that army balance is so terrible in 40k. Some guys seem to have the attitude, "hey Orks are just cannon fodder, you picked that craptactular army, you need to play for fun, not wins" Funny it doesn't say that on the boxes for any ork products.

Yeah, but that's GW's attitude in regards to Orks. They don't care what state Orks are in because not only do they give no gaks about army balance in the first place, but Orks are also the "fun" army so they put even less effort into it.