Why in the world are Scions Ld 7?

This literally makes no sense. Based on GW own descriptions these are super soldiers (not on par with Space Marines obviously...). GW claims they are virtually incorruptible and Commissars are drawn from the same pool of men who end up becoming Scions. Would it really of been that bad to give a standard Scion Ld 8?

Might not really be a big deal in the grand scheme of things but it is something that kind of irked me and made me take a second glance.

Meh. I am still going to make them work as my main army.

It's fairly absurd that they're just BS4 guardsmen with AP3 wet-noodle guns. Alas, GW doesn't seem to get why they're not particularly popular and Stormtroopers haven't been spectacularly functional since...ever. They *should* have a higher Ld and WS to fill the archetypal "stormtrooper" role, but alas.

Skitarii Vanguard ended up with pretty much the exact rules and weapons I'd always hoped for Stormtroopers to have since 4E.

Yeah thats a shame... Now look were it got us. They have there own faction...

My buddies and I just came back to the game and I chose to take up Astra Militarum.

I decided I would make my entire army out of Scions because standard guardsmen are not something I really like. I do however like the Guard vehicle models.

I thought to myself since I am buying so many boxes of Scions why not try and run them as an army of their own. Needless to say they don't really work on their own especially because of the extreme lack of long ranged support.

Maybe a 500 pt contingency of Inquisition or Space Marines will help fill it out. Not really sure at this point.

There has to be a way and I will not give up hope!

^^ Scions in Taurox Primes, which can be loaded up with some long range weapons, work pretty well in my experience.

Yeah, the fact that they don't have better leadership than a standard Guardsman is pretty lame. I think they should autopass orders too, since they're supposed to be these obedient, programmed, elite soldiers.

TheMostWize wrote:
My buddies and I just came back to the game and I chose to take up Astra Militarum.

I decided I would make my entire army out of Scions because standard guardsmen are not something I really like. I do however like the Guard vehicle models.

I thought to myself since I am buying so many boxes of Scions why not try and run them as an army of their own. Needless to say they don't really work on their own especially because of the extreme lack of long ranged support.

Maybe a 500 pt contingency of Inquisition or Space Marines will help fill it out. Not really sure at this point.

There has to be a way and I will not give up hope!

In the fluff, the way Scions operate is very similar to the game.

They don't tend to operate alone, usually supporting the rest of the Imperial forces, who provide them with ranged support as the Scions as the tip of the spear to strike at key enemy targets.

I'd suggest get some Guardsmen, use minimal Veteran Squads in an Allied Detachment and fill the rest in with ranged units, or ally in some Artillery Company Formation from the Kauyon book (I think).

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's fairly absurd that they're just BS4 guardsmen with AP3 wet-noodle guns. Alas, GW doesn't seem to get why they're not particularly popular and Stormtroopers haven't been spectacularly functional since...ever. They *should* have a higher Ld and WS to fill the archetypal "stormtrooper" role, but alas.

Skitarii Vanguard ended up with pretty much the exact rules and weapons I'd always hoped for Stormtroopers to have since 4E.

2nd ed they weren't that bad. 130pts for squad rather than 100pts which includes hotshot weapons(+1S) and mandatory veteran ability for which you don't pay anything. One of the best especially due to lasguns being probably 1's to hit rerolled though extra cover help is pretty sweet. Any cover and even space marines are hitting on 5+. Hard cover and marines are hitting on 6's(short of them coming close enough to get plus modifiers).

Though still albeit bit lackluster but not as horrible as current ones. Biggest problem being that the price of squad is fixed regardless of what ability to give. Since they vary from 5 pts to 25 pts what you pay for your hotshot lasguns is effectively variable.

(run and shoot is also funny though -1 to hit sucks a bit)

Stormies are only Ld7? Ugh. Standards must be slipping at the Scholam...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Stormies are only Ld7? Ugh. Standards must be slipping at the Scholam...

Lol obviously. However the Commissars that come from the same group of candidates are still LD 9 and 10. I mean give them stubborn at least or something to make up for the lack of Ld. I would bet that they are a little bit more disciplined and dedicated to a fight then standard guardsmen.

A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

And a Commissar has LD 9 and 10 respectively. Yes I do think it is very possible that the Scions could be as fearless as the Space Marines. Doesn't mean they are stronger it just means they have a dedication to their cause strong enough that they are willing to stand and fight a little longer. Space Marines probably should be fearless. Or maybe leave them at Ld 8 and give them stubborn.

You are certainly correct that many things about Ld do not make sense. But there are certain instances I am sure it still makes sense. Do hive creatures still give units within range fearless?

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

Scions with LD8 wouldn't be as brave as space marines though.

Not that i expect LD to change. That's been set since 2nd ed.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

Ld isnt just about fearlessness, its a combination of what once was three stats, Intelligence, Cool (ability to maintaim under fire), and Leadership (ability to command).

That said, in most cases, Stormtrooper training in those regards would be very similar to Space Marines. They dont have power armor or generic enhancements, but they have years of intense training and indoctrination through most of their early lives, not all that meaningfully different from a Space Marine.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

They have ATSKNF - which is better

Stormtroopers are indoctronated.

Soroitas are religious fanatics - Ld8

Storm troops would be better off with boosted weapon skill and Assault weapons instead of some pathetic short ranged rapid fire weapon. Then again little in the Elites section of the Guard codex makes much sense or is anywhere near good for its points cost so...

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

They have ATSKNF - which is better

Stormtroopers are indoctronated.

Soroitas are religious fanatics - Ld8

Fearless is way better IMO. ATSKNF is unrealible - it's great when you can chose to pass or fail though - then it's a lot better.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

Ld isnt just about fearlessness, its a combination of what once was three stats, Intelligence, Cool (ability to maintaim under fire), and Leadership (ability to command).

That said, in most cases, Stormtrooper training in those regards would be very similar to Space Marines. They dont have power armor or generic enhancements, but they have years of intense training and indoctrination through most of their early lives, not all that meaningfully different from a Space Marine.

Yea this is all I was getting at. These aren't guardsmen who are taken off the street handed a lasgun given some basic infantry training and told to go win a war. These guys go through years and years of training and literally raised to be soldiers. In reality it doesn't matter all that much the codex suffers from many other issues. I just thought it was very odd that they are placed on a level of Intelligence, Leadership and calm under pressure as a guardsmen who has had significantly less training than them.

Has anyone here tried to play them as their primary detachment?

TheMostWize wrote:
Yea this is all I was getting at. These aren't guardsmen who are taken off the street handed a lasgun given some basic infantry training and told to go win a war. These guys go through years and years of training and literally raised to be soldiers. In reality it doesn't matter all that much the codex suffers from many other issues. I just thought it was very odd that they are placed on a level of Intelligence, Leadership and calm under pressure as a guardsmen who has had significantly less training than them.

Has anyone here tried to play them as their primary detachment?

Well that's how they have been since 2nd ed. Though there you could take veteran skill to help them in moral department(either ignore all ld checks except break tests which they only take if they lose half the members in turn or 3d6 pick 2 lowest).

But yeah that's actually kinda odd. I think we introduce +1LD for them muy pronto. They don't suck quite as bad as in 7th ed but they are still bit lackluster for points.

MFW Stormtrooper comes from the german unit which stormed and infiltrated enemy trenches.

They're nothing like it.

Tbh, they need a firing mode selector or doctrines or both or soemthing. or should cost like 10ppm, lel. I still like them tho.

Or just pump them to str4, ap3. Now that should make them real elite.

there is the fluff justification for tau fire warriors having ld7 as well. A willingness to fight, but a desire to preserve their forces for a more important engagement in the future.

 drunken0elf wrote:
MFW Stormtrooper comes from the german unit which stormed and infiltrated enemy trenches.

They're nothing like it.

Tbh, they need a firing mode selector or doctrines or both or soemthing. or should cost like 10ppm, lel. I still like them tho.

Or just pump them to str4, ap3. Now that should make them real elite.

Don't get me wrong I still love them it's why I want to base my army around them. I am not a WAAC player I like to play things that I think look cool and I think the Scions look great. That and I have never played guard before so I figured why not try something new as I make my transition back into the hobby.

 drunken0elf wrote:
MFW Stormtrooper comes from the german unit which stormed and infiltrated enemy trenches.

They're nothing like it.

Tbh, they need a firing mode selector or doctrines or both or soemthing. or should cost like 10ppm, lel. I still like them tho.

Or just pump them to str4, ap3. Now that should make them real elite.

Aye, thats why I always hoped for them to get something like the Skitarii Vanguard rules. An Assault 3 S3 18" gun and a bit of CC and infiltrate/DS ability. Drop the AP3, give them WS4 and change the gun as above and tack on Furious Charge and a pistol/CCW combo with Ld8/9(sergeant) and run them a bit cheaper and all of a sudden they become both useful and thematically appropriate.

AP3 on Rapid Fire 18" S3 guns is pretty fething pointless, and they pay out the nose for it.

For some daft reason I have a soft spot for these guys, my biggest problem is that there isn't much to differentiate them from veterans and secondly their deepstrike going to waste if using transports.
The recurring ideas I've seen posted are making them WS4 and hotshots assault 2 to cover the whole storming the trenches kind of thing.
Ld 8 and stubborn would be nice but it treads on the toes of comissars, either the commissar role would need to change (I'm thinking of being able give orders to just their squad for the basic sort and maybe reserve rerolls for the lord commissar to simulate political influence giving him more resources, oh and give them both deepstrike so they can stick with their squads) or an alternative boost for morale, how about rerolling all leadership tests when with in 6" of an objective and call it "mission comes first".
Finally give command squads 2 orders per turn, and squads the opportunity to swap deepstrike for the ability to assault from transports when deployed by Taurox or Valkyrie.

Would make them half decent shock troops for bullying weaker troops off objectives but would still get demolished by CC and shooting specialists.

P.S bit of an after thought, alternatively they could have and inspiring presence rather than treading on the toes of command squads and perhaps give FnP and furious charge due to troops pushing on through injuries or a frenzied charge to the exemplar of imperial law beside them.
Just seems a bit odd having the elite being spurred on by fear of death after surviving the scholem

ragnorack1 wrote:
For some daft reason I have a soft spot for these guys, my biggest problem is that there isn't much to differentiate them from veterans and secondly their deepstrike going to waste if using transports.
The recurring ideas I've seen posted are making them WS4 and hotshots assault 2 to cover the whole storming the trenches kind of thing.
Ld 8 and stubborn would be nice but it treads on the toes of comissars, either the commissar role would need to change (I'm thinking of being able give orders to just their squad for the basic sort and maybe reserve rerolls for the lord commissar to simulate political influence giving him more resources, oh and give them both deepstrike so they can stick with their squads) or an alternative boost for morale, how about rerolling all leadership tests when with in 6" of an objective and call it "mission comes first".
Finally give command squads 2 orders per turn, and squads the opportunity to swap deepstrike for the ability to assault from transports when deployed by Taurox or Valkyrie.

Would make them half decent shock troops for bullying weaker troops off objectives but would still get demolished by CC and shooting specialists.

P.S bit of an after thought, alternatively they could have and inspiring presence rather than treading on the toes of command squads and perhaps give FnP and furious charge due to troops pushing on through injuries or a frenzied charge to the exemplar of imperial law beside them.
Just seems a bit odd having the elite being spurred on by fear of death after surviving the scholem

Yea I am likely going to run them as Veterans in my army for the time being just because for the points the veterans are essentially better with a wider range of options like the Chimera as a transport. I agree there are several things that would make them more useful and actually playable but I doubt that any of it would actually happen.

Having served in the military and working side by side with MARSOC for several raids I can honestly say there is a different attitude when men have been trained extensively to be warfighters. Sure the average guy has courage to a certain point and there are always going to be the John Basilone types in the world. But working with special forces there is a sense of confidence in ability that makes you stay in the fight a little longer and push through things that are a little tougher because you know the things you have learned in all your training will help you resolve the situation.

It certainly seems as though they treat the scions as guardsmen who get AP3 guns and that is all and the fact that have had the training they have means nothing.

Not really sure where the disconnect is but oh well. At least they are good looking models.

S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

TheMostWize wrote:
However the Commissars that come from the same group of candidates are still LD 9 and 10. I mean give them stubborn at least or something to make up for the lack of Ld.

Their command squads have Clarion-Vox Net, that gives all Scion squads within 18" LD9 for Fear/Pinning/Morale.

Just saying, as I haven't seen it mentioned yet in the thread.

Even Assault 2 alone would be a massive buff.

I was also really sad that the new Scions didn't come with CCW alongside their hotshot laspistol like their previous incarnations as stormtroopers, it was cool going "commando" and charging guys like Tau with 3 attacks each on the charge.

 master of ordinance wrote:
S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

Weren't they using hellguns in the old editions which was str4? or am I mistaking it with the inquisition stormtroopers?

And yes the str4 would be a nice buff that would make them a lot better while still making them fair priced. Oh and the sgt tax.. we don't need it . 22 points for a 1 wound sgt with a worst gun then the regular scion is jjust wrong.

TheMostWize wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A space marine has LD 8. Do you think they are at the level of fearlessness of a space marine? Really? Space marines should be fearless. Nothing makes sense about LD in this game.

Ld isnt just about fearlessness, its a combination of what once was three stats, Intelligence, Cool (ability to maintaim under fire), and Leadership (ability to command).

That said, in most cases, Stormtrooper training in those regards would be very similar to Space Marines. They dont have power armor or generic enhancements, but they have years of intense training and indoctrination through most of their early lives, not all that meaningfully different from a Space Marine.

Yea this is all I was getting at. These aren't guardsmen who are taken off the street handed a lasgun given some basic infantry training and told to go win a war. These guys go through years and years of training and literally raised to be soldiers. In reality it doesn't matter all that much the codex suffers from many other issues. I just thought it was very odd that they are placed on a level of Intelligence, Leadership and calm under pressure as a guardsmen who has had significantly less training than them.

Has anyone here tried to play them as their primary detachment?

Last time I checked weren't guardsmen supposed to be the best of the best from a recruiting worlds planet.... I thought a mandatory blamming was given to governors who provided substandard troops without reason?

I would say fluffwise they're closer to normal guardsmens LD than SM.... especially seeing traditionally stormtroopers didn't A) used to be as indocrinated as they are now or B) Only represent inquisitorial storm troopers

Their fluff in regards to having intensive, from childhood, training isnt new (just the absurd harry potter Hogwarts torture porn Schola stuff), and they used to be Ld8 base before the 5E book. They certainly have every reason to be at least Ld8 base, Sisters are, IG sergeants are, SM Scouts are, Stormtroopers have gone through at least as much as these units.

 drunken0elf wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

Weren't they using hellguns in the old editions which was str4? or am I mistaking it with the inquisition stormtroopers?

Well 2nd ed they were S4, -1 armour save(same as lasgun. Actually apart from S4 they WERE lasguns).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Last time I checked weren't guardsmen supposed to be the best of the best from a recruiting worlds planet.... I thought a mandatory blamming was given to governors who provided substandard troops without reason?

I would say fluffwise they're closer to normal guardsmens LD than SM.... especially seeing traditionally stormtroopers didn't A) used to be as indocrinated as they are now or B) Only represent inquisitorial storm troopers

Some IG's get very good training comparable or better than what real world armies get, some get lesser. Planets are required to provide periodically certain number of regiments but how they provide is another thing.

Some provide basic training, some provide good training, some provide drafted criminals...

Vaktathi & I have discussed this several times in the past. In short, because whomever is writing the rules at Games Workshop has no idea what they are doing. Stormtroopers (not calling them scions) like many units in the imperial guard (not calling it AM), are for the most part broken. Sure they can be used in niche situations and excel, but the vast majority of the time you are better off with alternative choices. They do not fulfill the role they were meant to (shock troops/objective takers).

Ogryn, Bullgryn, Stormtroopers, Rough Riders, Ratlings...the list goes on of terrible units that put you at a disadvantage the moment they are deployed. They have been terrible edition after edition. Despite what common sense would suggest, rather than improving said units by lowering their point cost & increasing utility, GW has decided to double down time & time again by ignoring them or making them worse.

We have to keep in mind that this is the company who turned down Blizzard entertainment & lost billions of dollars as a result, decided to wage war with independent friendly local gaming stores in a move to force everyone to purchase through their online store minimizing the games exposure to a fraction of what it used to be.

Keep up the great work GW

TheMostWize wrote:
My buddies and I just came back to the game and I chose to take up Astra Militarum.

I decided I would make my entire army out of Scions because standard guardsmen are not something I really like. I do however like the Guard vehicle models.

In are enough options to get Guard vehicles in this edition.

Guard Transport

chimaera -> Get them from the inquisiton. For the tax of one inquisitor ( 25 points decent stats weapons and LD 10! ) and 3 dirt cheap msu units (with the best weapon options) you can buy 3 of them.
The bonus of this is is that I chimaera are superior. They have firing holes instead of crappy las batteries.

Guard Fast stuff
Sentinels -> Emperor's Talon Recon Company
Any Flyer you would like -> Use the Air supremacy detachment

Guard heav stuff.

Rus tanks -> Emperor's Fist Armoured Company
Artillery tanks -> Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company:

Bane blades ->Emperor's Fury Super-Heavy Company

Try running scions with fortifications, they really open up options for them. (Especially wall of martyrs sets)

Storm Troopers have been needing a buff for the last few editions and there is not much that we can do sadly. I would probably go along with

+1 WS
Hellgun (NOT Hotshot) becomes S4 AP3 Assault 3
Hell Volleygun becomes Salvo 3/5
LD becomes 8. Sarge 9
All models get a Hellpistol and CCW

And suddenly they become useable. They are still far squishier than Marines but now they have the gear and ability to be scary and used as they where intended.

tneva82 wrote:

 drunken0elf wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

Weren't they using hellguns in the old editions which was str4? or am I mistaking it with the inquisition stormtroopers?

Well 2nd ed they were S4, -1 armour save(same as lasgun. Actually apart from S4 they WERE lasguns).

S4, -1 armoursave... why aren't they still using hellguns? Sounds like a much needed buff that they deserve.

Yea I agree that they could use some tweaks. Everything on every book cannot be the best unit in the book and I think everyone understands that.

The problem as has been stated is that there are so many units in 40k that have literally no role. They are so bad at everything that no one will take them because something else fits the role better. Or perhaps they are too specialized and because of that you don't waste points on something that can do one thing before it stands there the rest of the game. Maybe making all units more specialized would help this instead of having units be able to fulfill 3 battlefield roles all at one time.

 drunken0elf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 drunken0elf wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
S4 AP3 assault 2/3

I could live with that - they would be worth their points (finally).

Weren't they using hellguns in the old editions which was str4? or am I mistaking it with the inquisition stormtroopers?

Well 2nd ed they were S4, -1 armour save(same as lasgun. Actually apart from S4 they WERE lasguns).

S4, -1 armoursave... why aren't they still using hellguns? Sounds like a much needed buff that they deserve.

Hellguns post 2nd ed were S3 AP5.

 drunken0elf wrote:
S4, -1 armoursave... why aren't they still using hellguns? Sounds like a much needed buff that they deserve.

They already have access to S4.

Volleygun - S4 AP3, Salvo 2/4, 24"

The S3 Lasguns themselves are somewhat redeemed by the Tempestus orders, which can either confer Sniper or Rending. There's also a WL trait that increases the range of the their rifles out to 24". Of course, Guard players don't get either of those perks, or Scions/DTs with Obsec.

I've noticed that old school Guard players ("It's not Astra Militarum! I'm calling them Stormtroopers! Get off my lawn!") have a markedly negative view of Scions, whereas players who embraced the MT codex seem overall positive.

Is there any advantage at all to running Scions as IG Elites?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 drunken0elf wrote:
S4, -1 armoursave... why aren't they still using hellguns? Sounds like a much needed buff that they deserve.

They already have access to S4.

Volleygun - S4 AP3, Salvo 2/4, 24"

The S3 Lasguns themselves are somewhat redeemed by the Tempestus orders, which can either confer Sniper or Rending. There's also a WL trait that increases the range of the their rifles out to 24". Of course, Guard players don't get either of those perks, or Scions/DTs with Obsec.

I've noticed that old school Guard players ("It's not Astra Militarum! I'm calling them Stormtroopers! Get off my lawn!") have a markedly negative view of Scions, whereas players who embraced the MT codex seem overall positive.

Is there any advantage at all to running Scions as IG Elites?

Access to Platoons (which is an "advantage" that is extremely situational at best and really not worth losing ObSec. for, though it technically allows you to run more Scions as Guard elites than you can run in a Scions CAD) as well as being able to receive the Ignores Cover order, which is indeed a big one. Also having access to a wide range of fire support options within the same detachment.

Volleyguns? top kek. for 10pts, we go for a melta hands down.

The "weak" guns you are all referring to can be made rending or sniper and are ap3.

Orders are much better than the AM book, especially with the volley gun.

 sfshilo wrote:
The "weak" guns you are all referring to can be made rending or sniper and are ap3.

Orders are much better than the AM book, especially with the volley gun.

Storm troopers are most assuredly lack luster and their weaponry is the clearest reason for that. They do not adequately eliminate enemy infantry units in such a way as render them capable of taking an objective. Rending is essentially useless when the weapon is already ap3 and even then, the largest limitation to damage output is the strength of the weapon. Sniping is quite hilarious as if I wanted a sniper unit I would buy the ratling units which have a much longer range, can infiltrate, and cost less. With sniping, they lose their mobility and thus lose the ability to, you know, storm objectives. But they are just marginally better than guardsman and don't deserve the ability to shoot space marines, or other "stronger" units.

Why can't an imperial guard unit be able to storm an objective with specially trained troops?

 sfshilo wrote:
The "weak" guns you are all referring to can be made rending or sniper and are ap3.

Orders are much better than the AM book, especially with the volley gun.

yes, Orders help, but are also a highly variable factor and additional cost, and usually still will not make them worth their points, there's too many problems with the weak S and short range to overcome with just Orders in most cases.

 sfshilo wrote:
The "weak" guns you are all referring to can be made rending or sniper and are ap3.

Orders are much better than the AM book, especially with the volley gun.

I assume that everyone loves sniping with 18" ranged guns or rending with AP3?

The real reason guard players won't use them for purposes outside of Drop Melta is that they already have one of the best anti-infantry options in 40k, the Wyvern. AV12 Chimera hulls and 48" Barrage have a much better synergy with their troops choices.

More orders from the Command Squad would be nice, and the Command Vehicle rule for the Taurox Prime. But considering Tempestus can go toe-to-toe with Battle Company -- in a CAD with no bonuses -- I don't think the actual unit is wildly broken, at least in its own codex.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/05/04/militarum-tempestus-broadside-bash-tournament-report/

Yoyoyo wrote:
The real reason guard players won't use them for purposes outside of Drop Melta is that they already have one of the best anti-infantry options in 40k, the Wyvern. AV12 Chimera hulls and 48" Barrage have a much better synergy with their troops choices.

More orders from the Command Squad would be nice, and the Command Vehicle rule for the Taurox Prime. But considering Tempestus can go toe-to-toe with Battle Company -- in a CAD with no bonuses -- I don't think the actual unit is wildly broken, at least in its own codex.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/05/04/militarum-tempestus-broadside-bash-tournament-report/

They cost as much as Space Marines do but have a far shittier profile, a weapon that is barely useful and no special rules or abilities to make up for this. There is no way anyone can claim Stories are balanced.

Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

Tac Squads also have a LOT for the 2 point difference between the two. Chapter Tactics, ATSKNF, drop pods for alpha striking, better stats. And they don't need orders to be effective.

TheMostWize wrote:
Why in the world are Scions Ld 7?

This literally makes no sense. Based on GW own descriptions these are super soldiers (not on par with Space Marines obviously...). GW claims they are virtually incorruptible and Commissars are drawn from the same pool of men who end up becoming Scions. Would it really of been that bad to give a standard Scion Ld 8?

Space marines are standard Ld 8.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

No, Tactical squads just have:
Better weapons
Better WS
Better S
Better T
Better I
Better LD
Better saves
Access to the Rhino
Access to Drop pods
ATSKNF
Chapter Tactics
etc

Care to continue?

 Grimskul wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

Tac Squads also have a LOT for the 2 point difference between the two. Chapter Tactics, ATSKNF, drop pods for alpha striking, better stats. And they don't need orders to be effective.

Agreed on most points, save for the drop pod one. As a separate unit, they should not factor in a straightforward discussion.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

No, Tactical squads just have:
Better weapons
Better WS
Better S
Better T
Better I
Better LD
Better saves
Access to the Rhino
Access to Drop pods
ATSKNF
Chapter Tactics
etc

Care to continue?

1. The bolter is NOT better than the Hellgun in lots of situations. Plus most of the weapons you get for Tacticals (Flamer, Plasma Gun, and Melt Gun) are available to Scions. You can argue for Grav Guns, but nobody buys those on Tactical Marines.
2. Better S, T, and I is irrelevant to shooting squads. Plus with the FAQ on grenades they're not destroying vehicles. They're both folding to real melee units.
3. ATSKNF is a double edged sword. I love being swept just so I can shoot the bloody unit.
4. MTC and Deep Strike can be seen as Chapter Tactics, but I'll mostly concede on this point.

Tactical Marines suck. The inability to take two Special Weapons at any number and a very meh basic weapon doesn't do anyone favors. Also, there's nothing really making the Rhino a better vehicle than the Taurox.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

they can get DS thats far safer, comes with all sorts of shennanigan options, for a very low price, while being superior in just about every way. MTC is pretty minor as far as abilities go, especially in an infantry unit thats dies like basic guardsmen in assaults.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

they can get DS thats far safer, comes with all sorts of shennanigan options, for a very low price, while being superior in just about every way. MTC is pretty minor as far as abilities go, especially in an infantry unit thats dies like basic guardsmen in assaults.

The Scions can get that too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

No, Tactical squads just have:
Better weapons
Better WS
Better S
Better T
Better I
Better LD
Better saves
Access to the Rhino
Access to Drop pods
ATSKNF
Chapter Tactics
etc

Care to continue?

1. The bolter is NOT better than the Hellgun in lots of situations.

in most situations it is. Better S, better range, AP only matters against Sv4/3 units, and can be heavily mitigated by cover, and in a straight up fireight in the open, the two units are trading equal casualties, except the SM's have better range

2. Better S, T, and I is irrelevant to shooting squads. Plus with the FAQ on grenades they're not destroying vehicles. They're both folding to real melee units.

but the Scions autolose to the Tacs in CC which they are ostensibly kitted to fight. The Tacs can hold or at least hurt anything that isnt a dedicated CC unit, the Scions cannot.

. ATSKNF is a double edged sword. I love being swept just so I can shoot the bloody unit.

its generally far more favorable than not, and the LD difference doesnt hurt either.

Also, there's nothing really making the Rhino a better vehicle than the Taurox.

aside from being far cheaper to do the same job with the same resiliency.The Taurox Prime is painfully expensive for what it offers.

The thing I hate most about Scions is that their HQ can issue one order max, and it's almost always better to issue that order on the HQ itself than another unit because that HQ is packing more special weapons. It's so incredibly frustrating and restricting, not to mention unfluffy.

Classic dakka. "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas".

Engage snark

Your deepstrike woes: if only the Imperium has a 3pt item that could reduce your scatter to D6, while simultaneously shutting down Scout and Infiltration. I guess the search continues.

Rhinos outperforming Taurox Primes: perhaps Taurox Primes might be more useful with 48" S7/S8 shooting and used as fast fire support from cover, rather than gamely transporting troops with native Deepstrike. Oh well. Until then, buying 35pt FA Rhinos from the SM codex really helps Scions get an edge.

Tacs outshooting Scions: I guess we're still patiently waiting on high-volume S4 AP3 shooting to help Scions gain an advantage. *cough* Volleygun *cough* When will the evil GW hear our pleas?

Poor Leadership: It's too bad there's not a Special Rule that buffs them to LD9. Boy. That would be reeeeealllly useful.

CC woes: Let's give them full BS Overwatch! And a IC that has a 4++, Zealot, and let's the whole squad reroll saves! But most importantly, let's not spend points on it.

Ignoring Cover: Well I certainly can't think of anything in the entire Imperium. Can you?

In hindsight, I think the major problem with Scions is that they aren't part of the Imperium. If only we could use allies to help overcome their weaknesses!

Disengage snark

I don't mean to be abrasive but do you see what I'm saying? It's not a forgiving unit, and synergy is necessary. Drop Pods are simple because their scatter and reserves mitigation are inherent. But 6x of them cost over 200pts. You can buy a Comms Relay, Servo-Skulls, and Fleet Officer for the same effect, and it's probably a better investment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ExFideFortis wrote:
The thing I hate most about Scions is that their HQ can issue one order max, and it's almost always better to issue that order on the HQ itself than another unit because that HQ is packing more special weapons. It's so incredibly frustrating and restricting, not to mention unfluffy.

Definitely agree on that, though.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Classic dakka. "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas".

Or in this case: We are trying to make an unusable unit use-able

Your deepstrike woes: if only the Imperium has a 3pt item that could reduce your scatter to D6, while simultaneously shutting down Scout and Infiltration. I guess the search continues.

And is not part of the Guard codex. If a codex is so strong because it can ally then, well, I guess we are all equal because we can ally with Eldar.

Rhinos outperforming Taurox Primes: perhaps Taurox Primes might be more useful with 48" S7/S8 shooting and used as fast fire support from cover, rather than gamely transporting troops with native Deepstrike. Oh well. Until then, buying 35pt FA Rhinos from the SM codex really helps Scions get an edge.

The Rhino actually has more armour than the Taurox and is a lot cheaper. Players do not want yet another overpriced IFV, we wanted something that could get our lose quarters troops into position rapidly, not a long range support transport that is heinously overpriced.

Tacs outshooting Scions: I guess we're still patiently waiting on high-volume S4 AP3 shooting to help Scions gain an advantage. *cough* Volleygun *cough* When will the evil GW hear our pleas?

The Volleygun? If that thing is giving you nightmares then go home now. Tacs have a longer range and better overall strength. That AP3 only ever matters if the target is toting a 3+/4+ save and even then terrain will remove its usefulness.

Poor Leadership: It's too bad there's not a Special Rule that buffs them to LD9. Boy. That would be reeeeealllly useful.

Is this another one of those obscure once-per-turn rules from the storm trooper mini codex?

CC woes: Let's give them full BS Overwatch! And a IC that has a 4++, Zealot, and let's the whole squad reroll saves! But most importantly, let's not spend points on it.

If we could we would. But Imperial Guard psykers are stupidly expensive.

Ignoring Cover: Well I certainly can't think of anything in the entire Imperium. Can you?

One order. Per turn. If you pass a LD check on the sole target unit. And are within order range. Have fun.

In hindsight, I think the major problem with Scions is that they aren't part of the Imperium. If only we could use allies to help overcome their weaknesses!

The same can be said for most of the weak codexes. The issue is that you start bringing a couple more allies here and there just to shore up those weaknesses and then you need that one because it does what that unit does but better and then you take another.... And suddenly you find that you are pretty much playing your allied army primarily with your once main one allied too it. And the you realise that your Guard units are nothing but dead weight and you drop them.

I don't mean to be abrasive but do you see what I'm saying?

That you have never given the IG codex a read through ever?

It's not a forgiving unit, and synergy is necessary. Drop Pods are simple because their scatter and reserves mitigation are inherent. But 6x of them cost over 200pts. You can buy a Comms Relay, Servo-Skulls, and Fleet Officer for the same effect, and it's probably a better investment.

Comms relay is of little use, Servo Skulls require Inquisitors, Fleet Officers only serve to either hasten your or slow your opponents reserves.

Volley guns seem great on paper but they are really, REALLY terrible in practice. Salvo kills them. Just deep-struck in? (and you better have because that is why you are paying the points to use these guys over IG veterans). Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots! You are never going to get to use those tasty 4x24" shots because you are guaranteed to be dead next turn, as you just deep struck within 12 inches of a unit worth shooting volleyguns at, IE. something that will savage you in melee, even if it is just basics tacs.

Why everyone saying to use the Volleygun? It's almsot as bad as going for the grenade launcher lol.

At least the Grenade Launcher is an assault weapon so you can fire it from deepstrike to full effect. And it costs a lot less too.

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

No, Tactical squads just have:
Better weapons
Better WS
Better S
Better T
Better I
Better LD
Better saves
Access to the Rhino
Access to Drop pods
ATSKNF
Chapter Tactics
etc

Care to continue?

1. The bolter is NOT better than the Hellgun in lots of situations.

in most situations it is. Better S, better range, AP only matters against Sv4/3 units, and can be heavily mitigated by cover, and in a straight up fireight in the open, the two units are trading equal casualties, except the SM's have better range

2. Better S, T, and I is irrelevant to shooting squads. Plus with the FAQ on grenades they're not destroying vehicles. They're both folding to real melee units.

but the Scions autolose to the Tacs in CC which they are ostensibly kitted to fight. The Tacs can hold or at least hurt anything that isnt a dedicated CC unit, the Scions cannot.

. ATSKNF is a double edged sword. I love being swept just so I can shoot the bloody unit.

its generally far more favorable than not, and the LD difference doesnt hurt either.

Also, there's nothing really making the Rhino a better vehicle than the Taurox.

aside from being far cheaper to do the same job with the same resiliency.The Taurox Prime is painfully expensive for what it offers.

1. The extra point of strength only matters on 5+/6+ guys. And then you're both wounding any T6 Monstrous Creature on a 6+. Better range means little on BOTH units, as one can Deep Strike naturally and the other just buys Drop Pods.
2. Scions aren't equipped to attack ANYONE in melee, and I literally laughed out loud when you said Tactical Marines can hold their own. Also, if you're getting hit by Tactical Marines in melee a lot, it is because you're bad at this game.
3. You can't just say ATSKNF is favorable in most situations without naming said situations. I'd rather just lose it. I like being able to shoot things, thanks.
4. Taurox weren't meant to just get something from A to B. They're also Teleport Homers so that you don't have to buy everyone a Taurox. That's about worth the extra cost looking at them as faux Drop Pods.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[a bunch of nonsense]

Oh look, yet another Marine player falling back on the L2P crutch when confronted with Imperial Guard players asking for viable units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

 master of ordinance wrote:
At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

2x Volleyguns will destroy most infantry units in two turns of shooting. You don't need more damage output.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[a bunch of nonsense]

Oh look, yet another Marine player falling back on the L2P crutch when confronted with Imperial Guard players asking for viable units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

Honestly? L2P IS a good argument if you're constantly assaulted by Tactical Marines and think they're any bit close to holding their own in melee.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[a bunch of nonsense]

Oh look, yet another Marine player falling back on the L2P crutch when confronted with Imperial Guard players asking for viable units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

Honestly? L2P IS a good argument if you're constantly assaulted by Tactical Marines and think they're any bit close to holding their own in melee.

Compared to scions? Yeah they kinda are capable of holding their own.... obviously they're not going to be better than dedicated CC units.... because *shock horror* they're not dedicated CC units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. The extra point of strength only matters on 5+/6+ guys.

or 2+sv targets, vehicles, or units in cover and alloows them to maintain a firelower balance against Scions which are ostensible special kitted to hunt them.

Better range means little on BOTH units, as one can Deep Strike naturally and the other just buys Drop Pods.

except the SM's can be far more aggressive with their drop in safety and its far more possible for the scions to end up out of double tap range, and it matters if either unit is engaging a target they didnt DS near.

. Scions aren't equipped to attack ANYONE in melee, and I literally laughed out loud when you said Tactical Marines can hold their own.

Did you not read where I qualified that as against non dedicated CC units, which is true

Also, if you're getting hit by Tactical Marines in melee a lot, it is because you're bad at this game.

K...we'll just avoid how its possible for things that can deep strike right amongst an opponents lines to end up in cc a turn later.

3. You can't just say ATSKNF is favorable in most situations without naming said situations. I'd rather just lose it. I like being able to shoot things, thanks.

Pretty much any situation in which Ld matters and you dont want the unit swept.

. Taurox weren't meant to just get something from A to B.

right...but theyre still absurdly expensive and fragile for it

Yoyoyo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

2x Volleyguns will destroy most infantry units in two turns of shooting. You don't need more damage output.

For what it costs the Volleygun should be a lot better. When you consider that Grenade Launchers are actually a better choice then you really should see that Volley Guns are largely useless due to how much they cost right now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[a bunch of nonsense]

Oh look, yet another Marine player falling back on the L2P crutch when confronted with Imperial Guard players asking for viable units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

Honestly? L2P IS a good argument if you're constantly assaulted by Tactical Marines and think they're any bit close to holding their own in melee.

Maybe that is because *drum roll* the Tactical Marines are actually better than IG units in close combat and a Tactical squad assaulting an Infantry or hell, even a Storm troops (the guys who are supposed to do close quarters) will utterly annihilate the Imperial Guard for minimal losses in return.

 master of ordinance wrote:
When you consider that Grenade Launchers are actually a better choice then you really should see that Volley Guns are largely useless due to how much they cost right now.

It would take you between 13-14 turns to kill a Tac Squad with Grenade Launchers.

Against MEQ? They're not a better choice.

I have to respond to Vaktathi later as my phone won't let me go back and forth to quote and respond, but aren't Volley Guns 10 points?

The problem is that that they should have marine stats but marines hve marines stats

The volleyguns are a subpar choice. For 10pts, it way better to Get melta, especially on a deepstriking unit. If they would be 5pts or have a different firing profile they could be possible worthwhile. But it is competing vs meltas and plasmas. And the guard knows they can never have enough plasma and melta.

Only way i can see the volleyguns being good is if you set up a scion command squad with 4 of them in a ruin or something to bunker up an objective and not move them all game. But for 10pts less you get a vet squad with 3plasmas and the better cover save doctrine (forgot whatit is called).

Tempestus isn't exactly hurting for firepower. A twinlinked plasma command with Rapidfire will put 5.9W down on Marines, or 6.2W with the Krak Grenade. Two Vet plasma squads in Rapidfire range will do about 6.7W. The cost is 145pts for the Command Squad, compared to 340pts minimum for the Vets once you factor in Chimeras.

Guard now has Multilasers, Lasguns, and Heavy Bolters coming out their ears. Tempestus is going to buy 200pts of Taurox Primes instead of Chimeras, and with a pretty standard AC/ML loadout, we don't actually get any anti-infantry shooting whatsoever (well, AP6 Frag Missiles).

Melta is great on Scions, especially with scatter mitigation and reserves tricks. Don't get me wrong. But the Volleygun is useful if you want some anti-infantry punch. Guard's just not typically in a position where that's what they require.

The actual, boring maths answer to the OP's question is that D6 / 2D6 rolls don't allow very much granularity, and sticking Marines just north of average doesn't leave much room to make anything else very varied. :-(

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tempestus isn't exactly hurting for firepower.

For what they cost and what their upgrades cost, yes they are.

A twinlinked plasma command with Rapidfire will put 5.9W down on Marines, or 6.2W with the Krak Grenade. Two Vet plasma squads in Rapidfire range will do about 6.7W. The cost is 145pts for the Command Squad, compared to 340pts minimum for the Vets once you factor in Chimeras.

And the command squad is a quarter the size of the Vets and currently DS'ing in rather than hurtling about in what is at least a semi decent IFV. The Command squad will be wiped out, the Vets will actually have a chance of lasting long enough to do something worthy. The two Chimera born Vet sections are by far the better choice here.

Guard now has Multilasers,

Sub par, essentially a HB with a pip more S but two less(more) AP

Lasguns,

You are having a joke right? The Lasgun is so underpowered I sometimes wonder why I bother wasting the time firing them

and Heavy Bolters coming out their ears.

Heavy Bolters are considered heavily underwhelming when compared to every other heavy weapon out there. And this is before we remember that the Guard do not get any of the Marines super special snowflake buffs for them.

Tempestus is going to buy 200pts of Taurox Primes instead of Chimeras,

WHHAAAATTTT?! Have you even been listening to anything we have been saying? The Tauroox is the most suboptimal transport in the game right now. Hell, it has less armour than a Rhino and the Prime costs nearly a hundred points. Chimeras are far superior.

and with a pretty standard AC/ML loadout,

can argue, its a semi decent loadout. Or would be if the vehicle cost less than half what it does.

we don't actually get any anti-infantry shooting whatsoever (well, AP6 Frag Missiles).

AC's

Melta is great on Scions,

Agreed

especially with scatter mitigation and reserves tricks.

Also agreed, though once again we a re paying through our noses for it

Don't get me wrong.

I have a horrible feeling I have been getting you far too right

But the Volleygun is useful if you want some anti-infantry punch.

*Would be useful if it cost a lot less than it does

Guard's just not typically in a position where that's what they require.

Almost never.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tempestus isn't exactly hurting for firepower.

For what they cost and what their upgrades cost, yes they are.

A twinlinked plasma command with Rapidfire will put 5.9W down on Marines, or 6.2W with the Krak Grenade. Two Vet plasma squads in Rapidfire range will do about 6.7W. The cost is 145pts for the Command Squad, compared to 340pts minimum for the Vets once you factor in Chimeras.

And the command squad is a quarter the size of the Vets and currently DS'ing in rather than hurtling about in what is at least a semi decent IFV. The Command squad will be wiped out, the Vets will actually have a chance of lasting long enough to do something worthy. The two Chimera born Vet sections are by far the better choice here.

Guard now has Multilasers,

Sub par, essentially a HB with a pip more S but two less(more) AP

Lasguns,

You are having a joke right? The Lasgun is so underpowered I sometimes wonder why I bother wasting the time firing them

and Heavy Bolters coming out their ears.

Heavy Bolters are considered heavily underwhelming when compared to every other heavy weapon out there. And this is before we remember that the Guard do not get any of the Marines super special snowflake buffs for them.

Tempestus is going to buy 200pts of Taurox Primes instead of Chimeras,

WHHAAAATTTT?! Have you even been listening to anything we have been saying? The Tauroox is the most suboptimal transport in the game right now. Hell, it has less armour than a Rhino and the Prime costs nearly a hundred points. Chimeras are far superior.

and with a pretty standard AC/ML loadout,

can argue, its a semi decent loadout. Or would be if the vehicle cost less than half what it does.

we don't actually get any anti-infantry shooting whatsoever (well, AP6 Frag Missiles).

AC's

Melta is great on Scions,

Agreed

especially with scatter mitigation and reserves tricks.

Also agreed, though once again we a re paying through our noses for it

Don't get me wrong.

I have a horrible feeling I have been getting you far too right

But the Volleygun is useful if you want some anti-infantry punch.

*Would be useful if it cost a lot less than it does

Guard's just not typically in a position where that's what they require.

Almost never.

And that's when we realise everything excep vets or the wyvern is just plain subpar in the guard codex. Scions have a few nifty tricks up their sleeves, but it's sadly not enough.

and ona side note, would the ability to use chimeras in the scion codex be a buff for them? Taurox seems... meh.

What's the utility of a Chimera in the event you want to Deepstrike? It's BS3, it lacks Fast, it has less range, it has less firepower, and it's effectively AV10 once it's midfield.

Scions can already get cheaper Chimeras with more firing ports and Psybolts through Inquisition. Not worth it.

It's going to ruffle feathers (again) but the Taurox Prime is simply a better vehicle once the troops are disembarked.

Yoyoyo wrote:
What's the utility of a Chimera in the event you want to Deepstrike? It's BS3, it lacks Fast, it has less range, it has less firepower, and it's effectively AV10 once it's midfield.

Scions can already get cheaper Chimeras with more firing ports and Psybolts through Inquisition. Not worth it.

It's going to ruffle feathers (again) but the Taurox Prime is simply a better vehicle once the troops are disembarked.

The taurox Prime lacks the armour to survive past turn one/two. It is literally utter gak for what you are paying for it.

Chimeras are: a lot cheaper, have better armour, the Command Vehicle rule, more capacity IIRC, are Amphibious, actually have fire points, etc.
What competition is there between the two? One is an overpriced under armoured fugly as hell model whilst the other is a pricey but at least worth it model that looks nice.

And if it comes down to it, my Guard can have Chimers through the Inquisition too.

Didn't we already have this conversation once?

Taurox Primes are like Typhoon Speeders or a DE Ravager that got hacked into a transport. Of course they're expensive.

I don't really care if you don't like the model. What does that have to do with the rules?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Didn't we already have this conversation once?

Taurox Primes are like Typhoon Speeders or a DE Ravager that got hacked into a transport. Of course they're expensive.

I don't really care if you don't like the model. What does that have to do with the rules?

Because the Typhoon and ravager are both Skimmers, can both Jink,making them a lot more durable, can both move over terrain and are both a lot more agile than the overpriced scrap heap that is the taurox.

Doesn't the Taurox have MTC? So it's actually better at moving through terrain. Jink also removes all your firepower.

pm713 wrote:
Doesn't the Taurox have MTC? So it's actually better at moving through terrain. Jink also removes all your firepower.

But Jink keeps you alive long enough to deliver your cargo. The Taurox will be destroyed early on owing to it lack of armour or defensive abilities.

TheMostWize wrote:
Why in the world are Scions Ld 7?

This literally makes no sense. Based on GW own descriptions these are super soldiers (not on par with Space Marines obviously...). GW claims they are virtually incorruptible and Commissars are drawn from the same pool of men who end up becoming Scions. Would it really of been that bad to give a standard Scion Ld 8?

Might not really be a big deal in the grand scheme of things but it is something that kind of irked me and made me take a second glance.

Meh. I am still going to make them work as my main army.

Well I mean they are really meant to be led still. Also, i play a Militarum Tempestus force and to be perfectly honest, with as many as there are to field in the force, morale matters sometimes but they often get blown up wholesale before morale matters. But in a Maelstrom game, they are quite good at keeping the pressure on an enemy and taking points from them. Its the Primary missions that they struggle with kind of forcing them to go second just to have a shot at them. but that's okay too. That means you get the chance at the end of regrouping instead of being on the receiving end.

Morale matters but they are an MSU style of force so you weather it with sheer numbers if you can.

 master of ordinance wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Doesn't the Taurox have MTC? So it's actually better at moving through terrain. Jink also removes all your firepower.

But Jink keeps you alive long enough to deliver your cargo. The Taurox will be destroyed early on owing to it lack of armour or defensive abilities.

That seems an exaggeration. It can get close enough to deliver cargo in a turn and unlike most vehicles can use cover without risking breaking itself.

but chimeras don't have fire points. They have LASGUN ARRAYS! WOOPTY fething doo!

FW also blessed us with AC chimeras I believe.

The Autocannon is nice but it won't change much. Here's the dilemma with a Chimera as fire support:

- If a Chimera moves more than 6", it will fire at BS1.
- If you move less than 6", you troops might not reach their Objectives.
- If you deploy it forward, you're exposing the AV10 sides.

Not to mention, one BS3 Autocannon isn't exactly astonishing firepower anyway. Guard does have some pretty awesome artillery, though.

FYI, if you convert the Taurox into either a half-track or fully-wheeled vehicle, it looks SOOOOOO much better.

I like the Taurox Battle Cannon plus TL Auto Cannon combo. It does work.

Might be a typo but I'm pretty sure the Battle Cannon isn't twin-linked.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Might be a typo but I'm pretty sure the Battle Cannon isn't twin-linked.

Twin-linked Battle Cannons belong on Macharii, not Tauroxes.

Also, really? That dinky little thing can have a battle cannon like a Leman Russ has?

No it doesnt get a Russ battlecannon, it gets an S7 AP4 small blast.

 Vaktathi wrote:
No it doesnt get a Russ battlecannon, it gets an S7 AP4 small blast.

Did the writers forget that Imperial Guard already had a weapon called a Battle Cannon?

 drunken0elf wrote:
but chimeras don't have fire points. They have LASGUN ARRAYS! WOOPTY fething doo!

FW also blessed us with AC chimeras I believe.

Chimeras have firing points.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
No it doesnt get a Russ battlecannon, it gets an S7 AP4 small blast.

Did the writers forget that Imperial Guard already had a weapon called a Battle Cannon?

I think its specifically labelled as a "Taurox Battlecannon" and not "Battlecsnnon" but GW's writing has gone so downhill of late that I really just have no idea what they think anymore.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
No it doesnt get a Russ battlecannon, it gets an S7 AP4 small blast.

Did the writers forget that Imperial Guard already had a weapon called a Battle Cannon?

I think its specifically labelled as a "Taurox Battlecannon" and not "Battlecsnnon" but GW's writing has gone so downhill of late that I really just have no idea what they think anymore.

Ehh, I guess it's not any worse than half the Space Wolves wargear having Wolf in the name or Blood Angels stuff all referencing blood.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's going to ruffle feathers (again) but the Taurox Prime is simply a better vehicle once the troops are disembarked.

Ummm... A Taurox Prime pays 30 points more and all it has over the Taurox is a gakky autocannon.

 Grimskul wrote:
I was also really sad that the new Scions didn't come with CCW alongside their hotshot laspistol like their previous incarnations as stormtroopers, it was cool going "commando" and charging guys like Tau with 3 attacks each on the charge.

Renegades at least get this, so you can still run that style of tempestus

The new formation seems like it might actually be halfway decent.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Might be a typo but I'm pretty sure the Battle Cannon isn't twin-linked.

I'm pretty sure its awesome.

I average a pretty good number of hits with the Battle Cannon plus Autocannon combo. High STR, good AP. It works well for a small vehicle like that and that the Prime is a fast vehicle is just huge. Love the range it gives me.

Awesome isn't twin-linked Jancoran, you're arguing a different point. Anyway...

 Jancoran wrote:
I average a pretty good number of hits with the Battle Cannon plus Autocannon combo. High STR, good AP. It works well for a small vehicle like that and that the Prime is a fast vehicle is just huge. Love the range it gives me.

What are you targeting? I think I'd like the Battle Cannon more if it was Heavy 2.

Taurox Primes with MLs are more expensive, but they're also a lot more dangerous. S7 isn't enough to pen Quantum Shielding, Glance AV14, it's much less likely to Penetrate AV12, it can't double out T4 targets, and AP4 can't force Jink on most bike units. Those are significant downsides. Plus, you can add a HKM with the exact same weapon profile, which is unusual on most units. It's a straight firepower boost in this case. 3x Krak Missiles and a TL-Autocannon at 110pts is a lot of outgoing firepower.

I get that they're cheaper but that's a lot of quality shooting to give up. S8 and AP3 is a breakpoint for so many popular units.

Yoyoyo wrote:


Awesome isn't twin-linked Jancoran, you're arguing a different point. Anyway...

What are you targeting? I think I'd like the Battle Cannon more if it was Heavy 2.

Taurox Primes with MLs are more expensive, but they're also a lot more dangerous. S7 isn't enough to pen Quantum Shielding, Glance AV14, it's much less likely to Penetrate AV12, it can't double out T4 targets, and AP4 can't force Jink on most bike units. Those are significant downsides. Plus, you can add a HKM with the exact same weapon profile, which is unusual on most units. It's a straight firepower boost in this case. 3x Krak Missiles and a TL-Autocannon at 110pts is a lot of outgoing firepower.

I get that they're cheaper but that's a lot of quality shooting to give up. S8 and AP3 is a breakpoint for so many popular units.

Awesome is twin linked. Beleive me.

Im targetting things like Necron Warriors in Decurions, I'm shooting up Tau Drone Nets, I'm shooting Eldar Jetbikes, or the usual after combat clumped group of Daemonkin Khorne dogs or... I dunno. Im hitting normal stuff i guess. Smashing up Battle Company Rhinos.

Quantum Shielding is left to the melta crews obviously. The transports job isnt to be THE heavy hitter. It just does.

I like them and use them. But i REALLY love the fact that they are Fast vehicles. That is so awesome. Definitely its best attribute.

To be clear about what I meant, Jancoran :

Are you rerolling scatter if a Taurox Battlecannon misses?

Yoyoyo wrote:
The Autocannon is nice but it won't change much. Here's the dilemma with a Chimera as fire support:

- If a Chimera moves more than 6", it will fire at BS1.
- If you move less than 6", you troops might not reach their Objectives.
- If you deploy it forward, you're exposing the AV10 sides.

Not to mention, one BS3 Autocannon isn't exactly astonishing firepower anyway. Guard does have some pretty awesome artillery, though.

And the Taurox has the exact same weaknesses, baring the Prime which is a fast vehicle. But you are paying a premium for the Prime.and as it has less armour, cant jink , and is an obvious priority target, it will vanish very quickly.

 War Kitten wrote:

 drunken0elf wrote:
but chimeras don't have fire points. They have LASGUN ARRAYS! WOOPTY fething doo!

FW also blessed us with AC chimeras I believe.

Chimeras have firing points.

EDIT : well GW is slowed. They put the firepoint rule in the fluff page but don't put them at the end of the codex where all the rules and units are condensed for easy reference...

Yoyoyo wrote:
To be clear about what I meant, Jancoran :

Are you rerolling scatter if a Taurox Battlecannon misses?

TL Auto Cannons. Though I suppose if you get the right Psychic power you could!

 master of ordinance wrote:
But you are paying a premium for the Prime.and as it has less armour, cant jink , and is an obvious priority target, it will vanish very quickly.

That's the trick. You need to create a list that helps to spread out target priority.

I'm sure you've noticed Guard has similar problems fielding Hellhounds.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
But you are paying a premium for the Prime.and as it has less armour, cant jink , and is an obvious priority target, it will vanish very quickly.

That's the trick. You need to create a list that helps to spread out target priority.

I'm sure you've noticed Guard has similar problems fielding Hellhounds.

Given that the Prime can only be given too Stormies and Command sections there is no real way to confuse your opponent. At least with Hellhounds one has the option of taking the Eradicator instead which is a far superior vehicle for the same cost.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
But you are paying a premium for the Prime.and as it has less armour, cant jink , and is an obvious priority target, it will vanish very quickly.

That's the trick. You need to create a list that helps to spread out target priority.

I'm sure you've noticed Guard has similar problems fielding Hellhounds.

Given that the Prime can only be given too Stormies and Command sections there is no real way to confuse your opponent. At least with Hellhounds one has the option of taking the Eradicator instead which is a far superior vehicle for the same cost.

I think he means "too many targets" rather than "which one is the big one?". Generally lists are played openly so no "what tauros has the big gun or big squad?"

I regularly play them as my primary detachment of as a flying formation, for me they play a lot like eldar, but able to take imperials as allies, the fact that they are short range kind of means you have to be selective and let's be honest, they are T3 with a 4+ they are going to die to a stiff breeze anyway so there ld7 is rarely an issue for me.

the brand new Formation for Militarum Tempestus is pretty awesome. 1 commissar, one Scion unit, one scion commnd unit, one Taurox Prim. While the Cmmissar lives, his Scion squad if slain can parachute back in! very cool.

 Jancoran wrote:
the brand new Formation for Militarum Tempestus is pretty awesome. 1 commissar, one Scion unit, one scion commnd unit, one Taurox Prim. While the Cmmissar lives, his Scion squad if slain can parachute back in! very cool.

This will be one of the singular times we are in agreement. I'm making a Skitarii/Inquisitor list with two of these formations, with one dedicated transport to get three Taurox.