My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

40k was all but dead in my old area. Asking for 50+ dollars for a 5 man squad that you'll need many duplicates of just killed any potential for newbies. I can only imagine the horrors NZ and Australia went through.

When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW. And I'm a middle-aged adult with disposable income. I can't imagine what a kid of modest means who wanted to play would do...picks a cheaper game, I assume. I don't think kit bashing and converting is something people would naturally gravitate towards or be comfortable with without some guidance.

Yeah, 10 dollars for one figure is well over the top. Even worse in some cases like Tyranid Warriors.

I got shooed out of the local GW store for suggesting to another player that he might get better value for his money if he kitbashed Marauders of Chaos with Cadians for his Cultists, rather than buy another DV set.

I miss the old days.

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

That's pretty common due to the mark up afforded on concessions and the relatively low cost of most CCGs. Not surprising at all.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

All stores do. Warhammer is probably better sold in major outlets like Target. but GW likes charging ther boutique prices, compared to going out and competing against other "toys". Plus, GW knows that without a place to play the game, interest in the hobby wanes. Most houses find a 4x6 playing surface, plus space for mini's daunting.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

All stores do. Warhammer is probably better sold in major outlets like Target. but GW likes charging ther boutique prices, compared to going out and competing against other "toys". Plus, GW knows that without a place to play the game, interest in the hobby wanes. Most houses find a 4x6 playing surface, plus space for mini's daunting.

Agreed. I want nothing more than a dedicated 40k room but my apartment is just not equipped to handle that. Hell, even the 5 bedroom house I lived in with my family before I got a job and moved out didn't really have any one room suited to such a thing.

I also wish GW would, as you say, spread their models elsewhere and charge a sane price to help get people into it more. Even if they sold to Hobby Lobby's and the like, which already sell models and would be appealing to people ALREADY into the modeling hobby to begin with.

I wish local stores could move product other than card games. My local store gets my orders once in a while when I need them, but it's just a small shot in the arm. The models they have on the shelves rarely move (Also doesn't help they have models not many want on their shelves).

It's even worse if you play a horde army. An infantry squad for my Guard runs about $29 here. Doesn't seem bad at first, until you realize you need like 15 of them, and the kit doesn't have half the options for the squad, which requires the purchase of other kits/blister to obtain. I can understand why some stores are dropping it like third period French.

Switch to older editions I'm eyeballing new army that brand new from GW costs me about 155e for 1000 pts army. Add in daemon prince model(you need one anyway) and you are around 1500pts which is plenty. Not too expensive.

Eldar start I got was also roughly same cost and around 900 pts.

If you stick with GW's current rules no wonder you need to keep buying more and more. That's their plan. Cast off chains and take control of your games and most of your problems go away

 jasper76 wrote:
When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW.

If you're going to a local gaming store not dedicated to 40K and named GW, this is a fething gakky attitude to have (hell, even if it is called GW, if you want it to stay open, you're gonna need to buy stuff). They're just trying to make money, and if you want to play there, you need to keep them afloat. I made sure I bought everything from my old FLGS, including getting them to order from FW.

Can you blame them for not bothering with 40K when even people with disposable income have the same attitude as you have?

 Griddlelol wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW.

If you're going to a local gaming store not dedicated to 40K and named GW, this is a fething gakky attitude to have (hell, even if it is called GW, if you want it to stay open, you're gonna need to buy stuff). They're just trying to make money, and if you want to play there, you need to keep them afloat. I made sure I bought everything from my old FLGS, including getting them to order from FW.

Can you blame them for not bothering with 40K when even people with disposable income have the same attitude as you have?

Umm...You do know "not give money to GW" and "not give money to FLGS" are not mutually exclusive?

Anyway nobody should be forced to buy stuff from FLGS for overprice to keep them float. It's FLGS job to come up with ideas players want to spend money there. Simply complaining about others for your trouble isn't going to be working.

Here's a thought. Let's say online stores would sell for exact same price. Who would buy from them then if FLGS is available? Less service, same price.

FLGS's need to keep changing to keep up. It's not players job to keep them floating. It's theirs. Same concept that worked in '90's won't go far anymore. Those FLGS's who realize that will survive, those who dont' won't and any artificial attempts like from PP are ultimately going to fail. And result is going to be even worse than if they hadn't tried...

jasper76 wrote:FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

That's basically my experience at my FLGS. I don't really buy GW stuff there (other than paint). That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

Thus my advice to shop owners.

Keep them canned drinks coming. I'll pay for that.

That 40 dollar kit? No thanks. I can get that for far cheaper on ebay.

tneva82 wrote:


Anyway nobody should be forced to buy stuff from FLGS for overprice to keep them float. It's FLGS job to come up with ideas players want to spend money there. Simply complaining about others for your trouble isn't going to be working.

Of course they're not forced to, but don't bitch about it if suddenly the shop closes, or stops 40K events. If you want your local store to stay open, you need to spend money there. Assuming it's going to stay around as some sort of free club where you can play with miniatures you bought from eBay is naive.

 Griddlelol wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Anyway nobody should be forced to buy stuff from FLGS for overprice to keep them float. It's FLGS job to come up with ideas players want to spend money there. Simply complaining about others for your trouble isn't going to be working.

Of course they're not forced to, but don't bitch about it if suddenly the shop closes, or stops 40K events. If you want your local store to stay open, you need to spend money there. Assuming it's going to stay around as some sort of free club where you can play with miniatures you bought from eBay is naive.

Again: If store wants to keep up working it can. It might require changing how they operate but if they aren't willing to do that it's stores fault.

Plenty of stores have been able to do that fighting against ebay etc succesfully. How? Adapting. They need to provide value to be had in them. Then money comes in.

I put in happily money in to FLGS. Provided they actually provide something in return that's worth it. Not just "buy from us because...Otherwise we collapse."

Well duh. Those who don't work for their money don't get money. Just because something worked in '90's doesn't mean it works now so better upgrade that style of operation then. You are only 2 decades old fashioned...

My store which is one of the largets o nthe west coast (if not THE largest) has always been supportive of all games, but they have not directly run a 40K event in like 5 years before the one this weekend. We the players have run them ourselves and been allowed to use their space to do it and its mostly been player run things. they have a large staff, and yet...not one of them knows enough about 40K to even try to run an event. the one this weekend had problems, though we resolved them beforehand, and I am REALLY hoping its a harbinger of things to come. It would be nice if i could play more and organize less because i kind of end up organizing a LOT.

GW stuff of all kinds has been drying up near me. There's only one place that still runs routine events that gets any kind of turnout left in the state, and it's thr store in the middle of the largest city in the state. My old haunt used to be disappointed if only 12 people showed up to an event and we used to routinely get 20 or more for monthly tournaments, but pretty much every event of late was cancelled when either only 3 people showed up or nobody signed up at all.

The cost and awful state of the rules have killed the community for the most part.

people worry too much about the "styate of 40K". if people would just play and stop wishing life was perfect, it would also probably help.

I mean lets not kid ourselves. We saw the models and said "daaaaayng, those are cool" and then we found out there were RULES for actually PLAYING them and we said "well shoot, i wanna play a Tau Empire force then, they look awesome" or whatever faction it was for you.

And then you learned how to play and had your teeth kicked in about a dozen times while learning, but that was okay because it was just so cool that you could do this.

and then as you start to win, and refine lists and complete collections, we start to lose the sense of wonder and start to slip into our selfishness and our natural inclination to be critical.

And then we start worrying about things that have nothing to do whatsoever with the core truth: these are world class awesome models AND theres rules for playing them. WHUUUUUUUT? But yes!

I have never lost that sense of wonder. i still love that i can play with these things,. Love it. I get annoyed by rules, i like to win like everyone else, but honestly, even if I'm on a bad streak, i keep coming back because its the funnest thing I have done besides Dungeons and Dragons (which is still probably my favorite game to play and likely always will be).

Anywho, the local FLGS needs active promotor personalities with a positive mental attitude to revitalize their stores trade i nthe stuff. Doom and gloom is a self perpetuating fail machine. So get facebook pages and forums started. Delete the negative nancies and start organizing stuff, keeping people informed on stuff and keep it front and center in their minds and the groups will return. they did here. i resurrected this communtiy locally when it was tough to get more than 6 to an event. We now have 20-30. it's great.

But it took someone like me willing to organize and go about THREE extra miles in order to kind of keep in touch and keep people playing and keep people informed.

Its work. it shouldnt be necessary. but the Land of Should is a lonely place. No one lives there and we only occassionally visit. No sense dwelling on Should's. Situation is King and if the situation is dire and you REALLY wanna turn it around, I promise you, you can.

Nobody is demanding perfection from 40k, but if you're having to essentially take on another job, one that ostensibly at least two other entities get paid to do (GW and the FLGS) just to have a chance to engage in a hobby, while fighting steep cost issues and major product flaws (mainly poor rules), that's going to be beyond the means of most people and beyond the desires of almost everyone else, especially for a product aimed at a demographic that isn't typically endowed with such resources. To say nothing of the pitfalls of "deleting negative nancies" and whatever goes on with that.

I did it. labors of love.

My FLGS seems to have the extra heavy markup tax on 40k.
The local "deal" place would sell a Imperial Knight for say $80.
These guys: $170. (??!!)
Made it even more funny with the "Renegade" box set at $190 at the cheap place.

40k is picking up at the local FLGS for gaming but they sure make it REAL hard buying from them with their crazy markup.

GW treats stores like crap their contracts are horrendous for the small business owner it's no wonder with the loss of interest more and more are calling it quits.

Store owners have to go with what makes money and right now that's magic and x-wing.

 Jancoran wrote:
people worry too much about the "styate of 40K". if people would just play and stop wishing life was perfect, it would also probably help.

Well, yes, obviously the quality of a product is going to be less of an issue for people the more they lower their standards...


While the cool models are certainly what drew me into the game in the first place, it was the fact that the rules for playing with them were fun that kept me actually playing up until 6th edition. Issues with the rules can be overlooked if there are enough other positives that keep the game entertaining. But the last two editions went too far in the 'unfun' direction with no increase in the standard of the rules to balance that out... a situation that was just made worse by GW's reluctance to actually support their product.


Their current focus on getting FAQs out and the slowing down of the superfluous printed material cycle has me cautiously optimistic as to what the future may bring... but right now, despite still really loving the miniatures and the background, and really wanting to play this game, it's just too hard to enjoy it.

 Jancoran wrote:
I did it. labors of love.

Congratulations on your success, Janc. You are one of the few who could manage to resurrect a mighty community for a wargame of waning popularity. But your answer to Vakathi's challenge is unhelpful. Not everyone is you.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I did it. labors of love.

Congratulations on your success, Janc. You are one of the few who could manage to resurrect a mighty community for a wargame of waning popularity. But your answer to Vakathi's challenge is unhelpful. Not everyone is you.

I'm not special. Try. That's what you can do. Try or quit. I don't have quitting in me. Quitting is a choice. Trying is a choice. Telling people not to try? That's unhelpful.

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I did it. labors of love.

Congratulations on your success, Janc. You are one of the few who could manage to resurrect a mighty community for a wargame of waning popularity. But your answer to Vakathi's challenge is unhelpful. Not everyone is you.

I'm not special. Try. That's what you can do. Try or quit. I don't have quitting in me. Quitting is a choice. Trying is a choice. Telling people not to try? That's unhelpful.

I appreciate your words.

I definitely know where you are coming from. I live about 45 minutes from the closest game store that seems to have a wargaming community. The local store in my town is, in essence, a card shop that also happens to rent videos, and has a small section of GW stuff. I have seen on their events calendar that they have a 40k day on Sundays and I am going to see what I have to work with. The store doesn't seem to have any terrain, just loads of tables that the card gamers play on, but I am determined. I am sick and tired of telling myself that wargaming isn't worth doing because my friends aren't into it (aka no built-in circle of opponents/friends), and I am sick and tired of having to drive an hour to do any sort of gaming. It ends soon and, God help me, I will build a community.

 Coldhatred wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I did it. labors of love.

Congratulations on your success, Janc. You are one of the few who could manage to resurrect a mighty community for a wargame of waning popularity. But your answer to Vakathi's challenge is unhelpful. Not everyone is you.

I'm not special. Try. That's what you can do. Try or quit. I don't have quitting in me. Quitting is a choice. Trying is a choice. Telling people not to try? That's unhelpful.

I appreciate your words.

I definitely know where you are coming from. I live about 45 minutes from the closest game store that seems to have a wargaming community. The local store in my town is, in essence, a card shop that also happens to rent videos, and has a small section of GW stuff. I have seen on their events calendar that they have a 40k day on Sundays and I am going to see what I have to work with. The store doesn't seem to have any terrain, just loads of tables that the card gamers play on, but I am determined. I am sick and tired of telling myself that wargaming isn't worth doing because my friends aren't into it (aka no built-in circle of opponents/friends), and I am sick and tired of having to drive an hour to do any sort of gaming. It ends soon and, God help me, I will build a community.

well my advice to start is get a face book and a forum up. Then start getting people to post there and networking with the players you find. Also ask the owner to put out a flyer promoting the website and the facebook page. Slowly people will filter to it. Keep in the owners ear and getting him more flyers and talking up the fun it is to play. Then hold an event and again use thoe avenues to advertise. Turnout will be small at first so maybe a BBQ Hammer to promote it where its free to play and you provide food and good times as the prize. 1000 points is generally fun and whaty we found was that people REALLY liked the 2 v 2 format as a friendly way to play.

anyways keep at it. it takes time.

EDIT: One more thing: the phone is a wonrous invention. use it to call stores OUT of area so you can see what events they are doing and then make sure to keep your own pool informed on those. news from the front lines can be encouraging to people who are teetering. Sometimes being the one left out is a powerful tipping point motivator.

 Traditio wrote:
That's basically my experience at my FLGS. I don't really buy GW stuff there (other than paint). That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

Thus my advice to shop owners.

Keep them canned drinks coming. I'll pay for that.

That 40 dollar kit? No thanks. I can get that for far cheaper on ebay.

Please don't think that buying a can of soda is making any meaningful contribution to a game store. Obviously you have no obligation to pay higher prices for something just to "support your local store", but don't congratulate yourself for how generous you are when you're buying your gaming stuff elsewhere, taking advantage of the free gaming space, and maybe buying a token $1 thing here and there. That's being smug and condescending, not a valued customer and "paying your dues".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
That's basically my experience at my FLGS. I don't really buy GW stuff there (other than paint). That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

Thus my advice to shop owners.

Keep them canned drinks coming. I'll pay for that.

That 40 dollar kit? No thanks. I can get that for far cheaper on ebay.

Please don't think that buying a can of soda is making any meaningful contribution to a game store. Obviously you have no obligation to pay higher prices for something just to "support your local store", but don't congratulate yourself for how generous you are when you're buying your gaming stuff elsewhere, taking advantage of the free gaming space, and maybe buying a token $1 thing here and there. That's being smug and condescending, not a valued customer and "paying your dues".

If stores want a pay to play model they can start charging for tablespace or offering memberships. If not they'll need to accept that they're not the only game in town for purchasing product and allow people to game withough buying.

Peregrine wrote:Please don't think that buying a can of soda is making any meaningful contribution to a game store. Obviously you have no obligation to pay higher prices for something just to "support your local store", but don't congratulate yourself for how generous you are when you're buying your gaming stuff elsewhere, taking advantage of the free gaming space, and maybe buying a token $1 thing here and there. That's being smug and condescending, not a valued customer and "paying your dues".

I'm not congratulating myself or trying to make myself generous. I'm merely stating a fact in response to a point made by someone else. Another dude noted that his local store doesn't really make much from 40k, and that the money primarily comes in from things like MTG and concessions.

This basically conforms to my own experience.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
If stores want a pay to play model they can start charging for tablespace or offering memberships. If not they'll need to accept that they're not the only game in town for purchasing product and allow people to game withough buying.

Like I said, you have no obligation to buy at your local store if you don't like their prices. You don't owe them anything just because they put up a shelf of 40k stuff. But don't talk about how generous you are and how you always support your local store when you all you buy is an occasional can of soda.

And why should stores allow you to game without buying? If you aren't buying anything then you aren't a customer, so kicking you out costs them very little.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
I'm not congratulating myself or trying to make myself generous.

That's exactly what you did:

That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

You aren't "paying your dues" by buying a can of soda while never buying any gaming stuff, you're just taking advantage of the free gaming space.

Peregrine wrote:That's exactly what you did:

That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

You aren't "paying your dues" by buying a can of soda while never buying any gaming stuff, you're just taking advantage of the free gaming space.

Several points:

1. The sales price of those cans of soda, water, etc. are comparable to similar items purchased at a convenience store. If I go into a convenience store to use their bathroom and purchase a soda on the way out, would you say the same thing that you are now?

2. I could easily not purchase drinks from them. There are people at the FLGS who actually purchase their snacks and drinks from a nearby convenience store (personally, I think that this practice is positively tacky).

3. I do, in fact, occasionally purchase gaming things from them (e.g., dice and paint).

4. Again, I wish to stress that I'm not wishing to pat myself on the back. I'm simply stating a fact.

I'm personally not inclined to purchase a 40 dollar tactical squad at an FLGS when I could get the same squad on ebay for 10-20.

I do, however, purchase concessions over the duration of my stay.

For what it's worth, I'd like to point out that, from what I understand, movie theaters basically operate on this model.

The ticket price that you pay doesn't support the theater. It's pretty much used to cover the licensing costs for showing the movie in the first place. They pretty much make all of their profits through concessions (thus the high prices of concessions).

 jasper76 wrote:
When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW. And I'm a middle-aged adult with disposable income. I can't imagine what a kid of modest means who wanted to play would do...picks a cheaper game, I assume. I don't think kit bashing and converting is something people would naturally gravitate towards or be comfortable with without some guidance.

Yeah, 10 dollars for one figure is well over the top. Even worse in some cases like Tyranid Warriors.

I picked up kitbashing/converting on my own. Admittedly well-after I started being able to pay for my own models.

This is one of my best:

http://i.imgur.com/vz481VT.jpg

The helmet is a recurring piece in many of my minis of my partner's roleplaying character. I actually used to buy Space Wolves Pack boxes just so I could get those heads. There's two of them in each box.

Eventually after the sprues piled up for several years I felt obligated to start a small Space Wolves army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
If stores want a pay to play model they can start charging for tablespace or offering memberships. If not they'll need to accept that they're not the only game in town for purchasing product and allow people to game withough buying.

Like I said, you have no obligation to buy at your local store if you don't like their prices. You don't owe them anything just because they put up a shelf of 40k stuff. But don't talk about how generous you are and how you always support your local store when you all you buy is an occasional can of soda.

And why should stores allow you to game without buying? If you aren't buying anything then you aren't a customer, so kicking you out costs them very little.

I shop directly from my local GW. : D

They're a lot better than most of the GWs I hear about. Pushiness isn't a thing. They offer to help find stuff at most. Admittedly I don't know if that's just because they recognize me and know that I only show up when I'm going to buy stuff.

Plus they're a physical location with an online order point thingy so I can use my debit card to buy stuff instead of relying on my mom's credit card for online purchases. : D

I play my games at home with my mom (yay for nerdy gamer parents!) due to social anxiety issues though. The GW has gaming tables open for use, and the staff have invited me to the 40k nights, but I keep having to turn them down.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW.

If you're going to a local gaming store not dedicated to 40K and named GW, this is a fething gakky attitude to have (hell, even if it is called GW, if you want it to stay open, you're gonna need to buy stuff). They're just trying to make money, and if you want to play there, you need to keep them afloat. I made sure I bought everything from my old FLGS, including getting them to order from FW.

Can you blame them for not bothering with 40K when even people with disposable income have the same attitude as you have?

I do not use the flgs for playing games. There's too much of an age gap. On top of that, my flgs is a half hour+ drive from my home. Since I started 40k, I've thrown plenty of business there, but if they're counting on me to stay afloat, they have a losing business strategy.

30 minutes doesnt seem very far.

 Jancoran wrote:
30 minutes doesnt seem very far.

For a game? It's kind of inconvenient. 15 minutes is about the most I'd travel for someplace I want to visit once or twice a week. I think 30-45 is the "there's a concert there I wanna go see"

 Griddlelol wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Anyway nobody should be forced to buy stuff from FLGS for overprice to keep them float. It's FLGS job to come up with ideas players want to spend money there. Simply complaining about others for your trouble isn't going to be working.

Of course they're not forced to, but don't bitch about it if suddenly the shop closes, or stops 40K events. If you want your local store to stay open, you need to spend money there. Assuming it's going to stay around as some sort of free club where you can play with miniatures you bought from eBay is naive.

I do not agree with you. It is not the customer's job to keep businesses afloat.

If a FLGS no longer supports GW wh40k, it is because it is NOT profitible for that flgs.

I hope GW continues to ignore devotees such as yourself. Just keep smiling and open your wallet and give them your money for overpriced plastic toys. Heck, if you let them bend you over they can collect this months rent.

@Jancoran: It's not that far in the grand scheme of things, but it's not right around the corner, either.

Anywho, it's not my fault that GW overprices their toys. It's not my fault that my flgs is in the business of selling their overpriced toys, and it's not my responsibility to buy overpriced toys just to help keep a business stay afloat (they will be fine anyways, as card games are their cash cow)

 jasper76 wrote:
@Jancoran: It's not that far in the grand scheme of things, but it's not right around the corner, either.

Anywho, it's not my fault that GW overprices their toys. It's not my fault that my flgs is in the business of selling their overpriced toys, and it's not my responsibility to buy overpriced toys just to help keep a business stay afloat (they will be fine anyways, as card games are their cash cow)

Sure. We have a plethora of gaming options here, two major ones within about 20-30 minutes away and if i'm willing to tack on ten minutes there's a third. So I am spoiled rotten. I know I can get a couple games in so a 30 minute drive seems worth it to me.

Customers only duty is to themselves to find the best deal, they don't owe stores a living.

It's up to the store to attract people in to spend their money, if they can't it's on them not the customers.

hobojebus wrote:
GW treats stores like crap their contracts are horrendous for the small business owner it's no wonder with the loss of interest more and more are calling it quits.

Store owners have to go with what makes money and right now that's magic and x-wing.

Xwing doesn't make any flgs much money either in fact no minature game makes a lot of money for a flgs.
The problem with minature games are they don't move units quickly and sit on the shelf once the players in your area have whatever models they need. Xwing is just as bad with some sales when a new wave hits and stagnant shelves for months after. My flgs now went from a wall unit of xwing to a small rack in the center by discounted box games for xwing. And nearly every minature is sold as the same 40%-50% markdown to flgs. Xwing promotes flgs by selling them a store championship kit $60 or more with promo cards. However when my flgs runs an event they make more off the $10 registration fee then they do selling additional models.
The best thing GW did was set up the tank shock event because it sold them a $40 kit (which imho could have been a bit better then cardboard tokens and instead made acrylic tokens rewards) but it made the flgs stock more profitable by selling them stock at an additional 20% discount and allowed the flgs to get a preset order of models for around 60% off msrp. So when someone buys that $50 kit GW only recieves $20. Whoever thinks GW is overcharging for that price is insane. Most of the profit goes to the flgs.

Jancoran wrote:
Warhammer is probably better sold in major outlets like Target.

Not saying you are wrong, but I find it will be Hard to sell toys in a place like Target, Walmart what ever is, all those toys are already put together, painted, no extra work has to be done. If you want to paint and model, then 40K will be stuck where the models are. Thing is you don't play with models, so 40K products are what then?

GW would never fly of the shelf. Most people don't know what 40K is. So seeing a $50 price tag for a tank that is not even put together, then you need to buy glue, paint and then assemble it yourself, it would be easier for Mommy or Daddy to just buy a cheaper, or I should say BIGGER toy that is already painted and assembled for their little Timmy. I know I would. Why would I pay $50 for something that is basically the size of my hand but I can get a big toy that is like 2 feet long for $50.

So yeah 40K can never sell in Target or what not unless GW has their own little space there to promote "The Hobby". ( should there be a tm on The Hobby? )

I can't see why the OP is upset about his store that he doesn't go to or buy from is dropping 40K. After about 10 or more years of my city not selling GW stuff, a store finally opened up and I buy from there, at full price. Why? Because he offers a place to play and people to get together. We all thought nobody played 40K in our area so it's a nice surprise to see there are players. So I buy and support the store now. Yeah sucks not having a small discount, but sucks even more not having any players. So it's a good trade off.

Davor wrote:

I can't see why the OP is upset about his store that he doesn't go to or buy from is dropping 40K.

I'm mildly upset because I'm worried that this could lead to local player interest in 40K drying up. It's the only hobby shop that sells games in my area.

And I do buy 40k stuff from them occassionally, and they are my regular source for hobby paints.

 jasper76 wrote:

Davor wrote:

I can't see why the OP is upset about his store that he doesn't go to or buy from is dropping 40K.

I'm mildly upset because I'm worried that this could lead to local player interest in 40K drying up. It's the only hobby shop that sells games in my area.

And I do buy 40k stuff from them occassionally, and they are my regular source for hobby paints.

How will 40K drying up in a store you to play in or buy in affect you? After all you are still getting in your games it seems. Don't get that part.

It goes both ways. We don't have the full story so really can't say what should be done. I see it both ways.

First you are correct. There is a reason why you don't shop there. Be it the gaming is bad, or you are getting better deals else where. If the store really wanted your business, they should be doing something to keep it. If they don't, they shouldn't be surprised when you shop else where. It's up to the store to keep you and do everything they can to keep you. Since you shop else where, that store is not doing anything to keep you. So of course you will shop else where. That is business 101. Give the customer what they want.

That being said, read what you are saying. OCCASIONALLY and buying Paints. Now you are not wrong in shopping else where as I said. Thing is, how many others are "shopping elsewhere" now? One person might not hurt, but a lot of people shopping else where, playing elsewhere and "occasionally buying, and just buying paints will not help a store survive. You know for small stores to buy GW they have to go through a lot of hassle, aggravation to be able to sell GW stuff? Even though it sounds like great savings for us, the store buys what at 40% or so, so they are getting a 60% mark up. Thing is that is what $25? So you buying $5 here and there for paint and then buy a $50 product that is what a $25 or $30 sale for the store. Not really a lot of money for them now is it?

Look at it this way. Would you bother jumping through hoops to just sell a $5 pot of paint or the occasional sale or two?

I do buy 40K products from them occasionally. However, I only buy 40K products occasionally in general these days. It's not my responsibility to buy items more frequently just to keep the business running smooth. I have my own problems.

I don't play games at the flgs because I'm 40 years old and the vast majority of people who play there are teens to early twenties. Probably like many people, I prefer to socialize with people in my own general age group, and think it's creepy as gak for a middle age man to be hanging out with teenagers. So I play games with people around my age and we play in each others houses.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
30 minutes doesnt seem very far.

For a game? It's kind of inconvenient. 15 minutes is about the most I'd travel for someplace I want to visit once or twice a week. I think 30-45 is the "there's a concert there I wanna go see"

You wouldn't survive long in West Texas, then. We don't measure distance in "miles" we measure it in how long it takes to get there.

 EnTyme wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
30 minutes doesnt seem very far.

For a game? It's kind of inconvenient. 15 minutes is about the most I'd travel for someplace I want to visit once or twice a week. I think 30-45 is the "there's a concert there I wanna go see"

You wouldn't survive long in West Texas, then. We don't measure distance in "miles" we measure it in how long it takes to get there.

I wouldn't go to Texas for lots of reasons, let alone the distance

 Jancoran wrote:
people worry too much about the "styate of 40K". if people would just play and stop wishing life was perfect, it would also probably help.

I mean lets not kid ourselves. We saw the models and said "daaaaayng, those are cool" and then we found out there were RULES for actually PLAYING them and we said "well shoot, i wanna play a Tau Empire force then, they look awesome" or whatever faction it was for you.

And then you learned how to play and had your teeth kicked in about a dozen times while learning, but that was okay because it was just so cool that you could do this.

and then as you start to win, and refine lists and complete collections, we start to lose the sense of wonder and start to slip into our selfishness and our natural inclination to be critical.

And then we start worrying about things that have nothing to do whatsoever with the core truth: these are world class awesome models AND theres rules for playing them. WHUUUUUUUT? But yes!

I have never lost that sense of wonder. i still love that i can play with these things,. Love it. I get annoyed by rules, i like to win like everyone else, but honestly, even if I'm on a bad streak, i keep coming back because its the funnest thing I have done besides Dungeons and Dragons (which is still probably my favorite game to play and likely always will be).

Anywho, the local FLGS needs active promotor personalities with a positive mental attitude to revitalize their stores trade i nthe stuff. Doom and gloom is a self perpetuating fail machine. So get facebook pages and forums started. Delete the negative nancies and start organizing stuff, keeping people informed on stuff and keep it front and center in their minds and the groups will return. they did here. i resurrected this communtiy locally when it was tough to get more than 6 to an event. We now have 20-30. it's great.

But it took someone like me willing to organize and go about THREE extra miles in order to kind of keep in touch and keep people playing and keep people informed.

Its work. it shouldnt be necessary. but the Land of Should is a lonely place. No one lives there and we only occassionally visit. No sense dwelling on Should's. Situation is King and if the situation is dire and you REALLY wanna turn it around, I promise you, you can.

I agree 100% with this sentiment. It isn't a matter of doing other people's jobs, as others have suggested, it is simply a matter of being involved in a hobby that requires a community. For example, I often organize narrative campaigns for the local store. There is no entry fee, I am not paid anything, neither is the store, but it gives people something to do other than pickup games or tournaments. We have a good two dozen players, and it does seem to be growing. In my experience, it is incredibly important to make sure there are different styles of play available, so that you can reach as many people as possible.

40k is blooming here. But 90% of models are recasts.

I have to say we're lucky on the northern half of the East coast it would seem. The gaming store I play at regularly has games running and there are multiple stores in the general vicinity up and down the coast that run regular events. There's some solid gaming opportunities in the Pennsylvania/Delaware/New Jersey areas.

I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Their bread and butter is really MtG (and other CCGs) and Heroclix. Why? Sealed events. Everybody wins. The shop sells product, the gamers take home new stuff, and get to play an event all at the same time. MtG does an excellent job of this with things like giving away intro packs, exclusive cards, launch events, etc. That's the kind of thing that gets people into stores. (People are also a lot more likely to casually drop $5-10 on cards instead of $50 on a set of models) 40K will never be a "booster pack" kind of game, but GW could do itself and its stores some favors with more special events and prize support.

 WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Could be worse. They could have opened up a store literally underneath a FLGS and have to watch people heading upstairs and totally ignoring them

 WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Their bread and butter is really MtG (and other CCGs) and Heroclix. Why? Sealed events. Everybody wins. The shop sells product, the gamers take home new stuff, and get to play an event all at the same time. MtG does an excellent job of this with things like giving away intro packs, exclusive cards, launch events, etc. That's the kind of thing that gets people into stores. (People are also a lot more likely to casually drop $5-10 on cards instead of $50 on a set of models) 40K will never be a "booster pack" kind of game, but GW could do itself and its stores some favors with more special events and prize support.

While I agree with your second paragraph, 40k is definitely more a hobby than MtG, Hero Clix, etc. The reason those support the store (and every other store) is that A) they're addictive, B) relatively cheap to buy, and C) no need to assemble/paint. Literally rip it open and play.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Their bread and butter is really MtG (and other CCGs) and Heroclix. Why? Sealed events. Everybody wins. The shop sells product, the gamers take home new stuff, and get to play an event all at the same time. MtG does an excellent job of this with things like giving away intro packs, exclusive cards, launch events, etc. That's the kind of thing that gets people into stores. (People are also a lot more likely to casually drop $5-10 on cards instead of $50 on a set of models) 40K will never be a "booster pack" kind of game, but GW could do itself and its stores some favors with more special events and prize support.

While I agree with your second paragraph, 40k is definitely more a hobby than MtG, Hero Clix, etc. The reason those support the store (and every other store) is that A) they're addictive, B) relatively cheap to buy, and C) no need to assemble/paint. Literally rip it open and play.

I wouldn't claim 40K is more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix - its like saying building model ships in a bottle is more of a hobby than golf because with golf you just grab a bunch of clubs and go out to the green.

 Stormonu wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Their bread and butter is really MtG (and other CCGs) and Heroclix. Why? Sealed events. Everybody wins. The shop sells product, the gamers take home new stuff, and get to play an event all at the same time. MtG does an excellent job of this with things like giving away intro packs, exclusive cards, launch events, etc. That's the kind of thing that gets people into stores. (People are also a lot more likely to casually drop $5-10 on cards instead of $50 on a set of models) 40K will never be a "booster pack" kind of game, but GW could do itself and its stores some favors with more special events and prize support.

While I agree with your second paragraph, 40k is definitely more a hobby than MtG, Hero Clix, etc. The reason those support the store (and every other store) is that A) they're addictive, B) relatively cheap to buy, and C) no need to assemble/paint. Literally rip it open and play.

I wouldn't claim 40K is more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix - its like saying building model ships in a bottle is more of a hobby than golf because with golf you just grab a bunch of clubs and go out to the green.

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

jasper76 wrote:I do buy 40K products from them occasionally. However, I only buy 40K products occasionally in general these days. It's not my responsibility to buy items more frequently just to keep the business running smooth. I have my own problems.

I don't play games at the flgs because I'm 40 years old and the vast majority of people who play there are teens to early twenties. Probably like many people, I prefer to socialize with people in my own general age group, and think it's creepy as gak for a middle age man to be hanging out with teenagers. So I play games with people around my age and we play in each others houses.

Fair enough, I am like you then. Thing is, you didn't say it, so it came to me, that you bought else where. That is what I thought was wrong with what you said in your original post.

What I never got about MtG and other CCGs is what's to stop people just lamnating their own cards.

People say 40K is more expensive but it's a matter how of how much money you choose to spend. At my flgs one time I saw a guy drop something like $200 on 4 cards for a tournament, and after he played the tournament, he sold the back to the store at a steep loss. I see people spending $50+ on cards there regularly. Since it's more instant gratification with what you get in a bunch of cards that you can instantly add to your deck, it might be more addictive gaming wise than a modeling game. I think there's probably alot of people who spend just as much or more than your average 40K player in cardgames

 koooaei wrote:
40k is blooming here. But 90% of models are recasts.

A Mate who was our groups uber fanboy just bought pollux and the new 30k dreadnought from Russia both half the price of forgeworld and zero flaws.

When even the apologists of the group go to recasts you know prices have gone beyond what's reasonable.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

Not requiring assembly or painting doesn't make a game less time intensive... It just means players spend less time painting or modelling. I've met MtG players who spend far, far more time and money on their hobby than I do on 40k.

Just some thoughts...

GW stuff is part game figures, part collectibles. While there are some figures whose pricing makes you scratch your head ( daemonettes at 60 something per box..wth?) for the most part the price per figure....is comparable to other sci fi and fantasy figures. Now, I have something like 100 saxons and vikings on my to do list, and while GW figs come in around 4 dollars a figure, historical plastics are around 1 - 1.50. For a very monopose figure with few options and not as many bitz. It is give or take.

So I would not say they are over priced. Expensive...yes.

MTG...if you want to be competitive, than you are spending as much money if not more than a 40K player. And in theory, a 40K army's figures never become unplayable ( My wolf guard army was....but thats an exception). MTG does require you to switch figures and buy whole new decks. Which again, if you want to be competitive...can cost money. ( but with cash payouts and sellable prices, you can make a living at Magic, but not 40K.

Err GW's always messing around with power levels in order to invalidate older models and make you buy the newer kits.

You can still use the older squads but your hindering yourself by doing so.

All the years I've played I can count on one hand how many opponents brought painted armies, overwhelmingly I've faced bare grey plastic because they care far more about playing than painting and modelling.

And now the games in such a poor state £5 a toy soldier is unacceptable.

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

Not requiring assembly or painting doesn't make a game less time intensive... It just means players spend less time painting or modelling. I've met MtG players who spend far, far more time and money on their hobby than I do on 40k.

But that's what I mean. Less time painting or modeling = more time playing or building decks, etc.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

Not requiring assembly or painting doesn't make a game less time intensive... It just means players spend less time painting or modelling. I've met MtG players who spend far, far more time and money on their hobby than I do on 40k.

But that's what I mean. Less time painting or modeling = more time playing or building decks, etc.

Building deck=painting and modeling effectively. Preparing for the game.

tneva82 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

Not requiring assembly or painting doesn't make a game less time intensive... It just means players spend less time painting or modelling. I've met MtG players who spend far, far more time and money on their hobby than I do on 40k.

But that's what I mean. Less time painting or modeling = more time playing or building decks, etc.

Building deck=painting and modeling effectively. Preparing for the game.

Yes, but not in the way I presented. OP asked why MtG and Heroclix were so popular, I presented the above. MtG and such are much less time consuming to prepare and play. Can you spend hours and hundreds of $$$ on decks? Sure, but you can also spend $10 on a premade deck, open it, and play. Much harder to do with 40k.

Can you even buy anything for £10 these days that's not paint or glue?

tneva82 wrote:


Building deck=painting and modeling effectively. Preparing for the game.

I disagree. Building deck=making an army on paper/battlescribe/what ever.

Painting and modeling=taking cards/pre painted minis out of the box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Yes, but not in the way I presented. OP asked why MtG and Heroclix were so popular, I presented the above. MtG and such are much less time consuming to prepare and play. Can you spend hours and hundreds of $$$ on decks? Sure, but you can also spend $10 on a premade deck, open it, and play. Much harder to do with 40k.

This is so true. My son just wants to play. That is why he loves MtG so much. Cheaper for him to get and he doesn't have to put anything together. I had to put Necrons together for him to play with me, but because of the crappy rules and how disorganized they are, he doesn't have fun playing anymore and rather focus his energy on MtG.

*edit*
Price point is also true. While he maybe have spent, $500 on MtG, that is over time. So while MtG can be just as expensive with GW in the long run, thing is, with MtG you can buy something for $5-$50 right away that he can save for and not the $100+ kits that GW is offering. So yes MtG is CHEAPER than GW when buying small purchases like a booster a week or what not, and playing in leagues once a week. It's still cheaper than GW.

The LGS gaming scene has become a lot more casual and board-game oriented over the years. 40K is strictly geared toward garage/basement play among friends and official tournaments. GW doesn't want to fit anywhere in between, because they are in the business of producing models and not games. What does an LGS have to do with models? 20 years ago you had American chain stores like Hobbytown that sold model kits, toy train sets and the like. They sold GW minis, but they didn't provide an environment for gaming because who wants a bunch of fat, smelly gamers scaring away kids who just want to build model kits? Yet Hobbytown was a much more appropriate vendor for GW than any LGS, because gaming stores are generally geared towards selling comics, cards and toys. GW doesn't make toys. They don't make games. They make models.

Meanwhile gaming stores don't want to sell paint, super glue or model kits. They want to sell instant gratification in neat little packages. They want children and casuals. They want the cute girl who thinks it'd be fun to put on spock ears and attend a convention once in her life, not the crusty grognard who spends his whole life dragging himself to conventions and tournaments across the country in order to justify collecting and building what is effectively a $10,000 model train set.

GW is reaching out to the casuals and the LGS crowds with new products like that 40K toy board game, but I doubt it will catch on or carry the company in a new direction. They had Heroquest and Space Hulk in the 90s, after all. As long as they stay a model company, they don't fall under the umbrella of "toys and games". Asking to play Warhammer at your LGS is like asking to play badminton at your LGS.

Wow, so many people think it is the job of the customer to keep the business afloat. I would highly suggest anyone who feels that way to go take a quick economics class.

I haven't bought a model from my FLGS in a long time. Not because I don't care about them, or because I don't play at that location or whatever, but because if I have $50 to spend on GW stuff for the month I would rather take that on to EBAY where I can buy upwards of 20 Stormboyz or two Mek Gunz rather then spend it at my FLGS ( who has to special order because they can't afford to keep much stock) and instead of getting 20 Storm Boyz or 2 Mek Gunz I end up with 10 Stormboyz or 1 Mek Gun (plus tax).


I do support my Store by purchasing drinks, snacks, Paint, Comics and dice from them, but I will not support GW ever again. They over price everything, they put the bare minimum of effort into writing rules, and they do not support the game well enough to justify me giving them the kind of money they ask for me to play the hobby.

SemperMortis wrote:

I do support my Store by purchasing drinks, snacks, Paint, Comics and dice from them, but I will not support GW ever again. They over price everything, they put the bare minimum of effort into writing rules, and they do not support the game well enough to justify me giving them the kind of money they ask for me to play the hobby.

I can never understand this "I will not support GW no more, but buy from eBay".

Why play the game then if you will not support the company? Yes I know it's one thing to get something cheaper if need be but it sounds you have something to grind against GW. So why play there game if you hate them that much?

Also how is a store going to survive on just drinks, snacks paint, comics and dice. Unless you don't play there, then ok, but if you play there, but don't buy from there, that is just wrong.

Davor wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

I do support my Store by purchasing drinks, snacks, Paint, Comics and dice from them, but I will not support GW ever again. They over price everything, they put the bare minimum of effort into writing rules, and they do not support the game well enough to justify me giving them the kind of money they ask for me to play the hobby.

I can never understand this "I will not support GW no more, but buy from eBay".

Why play the game then if you will not support the company? Yes I know it's one thing to get something cheaper if need be but it sounds you have something to grind against GW. So why play there game if you hate them that much?

Also how is a store going to survive on just drinks, snacks paint, comics and dice. Unless you don't play there, then ok, but if you play there, but don't buy from there, that is just wrong.

Because simply put, back when I started playing the company was decent. Now however? not so much. The company cares so little about its customer base that it is amazing that they are still able to turn a profit.

As far as why I still play? Because I love the game that I started playing 20 years ago. I also have a lot of money invested into this hobby and I would prefer to see them do a reboot and fix their glaring problems then to give them money and make them think everything is ok.

How does a store survive on drinks and snacks (convenience stores can answer that pretty easily) or hobby paints/dice and comic? Well ask comicbook stores they can answer that one for you as well.

I don't buy from my local store because they have exactly 3 boxes of Ork figures, 2 of boyz and 1 of nobz, I don't need any of that.

Davor wrote:

Why play the game then if you will not support the company? Yes I know it's one thing to get something cheaper if need be but it sounds you have something to grind against GW. So why play there game if you hate them that much?

Liking a game and liking the company that makes it aren't the same thing...

Also how is a store going to survive on just drinks, snacks paint, comics and dice.

By selling a lot of them?

insaniak wrote:By selling a lot of them?

This.

This.

A thousand times this.

Walking into my FLGS and purchasing sodas over the course of several hours is qualitatively no different from purchasing coffee and hanging out at McDonalds or Starbucks.

Yes, I'm using their tables. But it's not like I'm taking it with me when I leave.

 Traditio wrote:

Walking into my FLGS and purchasing sodas over the course of several hours is qualitatively no different from purchasing coffee and hanging out at McDonalds or Starbucks. .

Well, no, not exactly.

McDonalds and Starbucks have businesses specifically built around a model of selling very large quantities of food and/or beverages. Their stores are designed to fit this model.

Gaming stores are specifically built around a model of selling games. They often sell food and beverages in order to capture a little extra cash that would otherwise be walking out the door, but it's not actually what they are designed to do and so they are poorly equipped to maximise profits or move sufficient volume of sales from it in the same way as a store that actually sells such things as their primary focus.



The problem for games stores comes from the perception that they should also be a gaming venue, despite this causing all sorts of issues with keeping a store profitable... the main one being that it needs an awful lot of space, and that space has to be paid for. Some stores work around this by charging for table use. Some run as many organised (and paid for) events as possible to generate revenue that way. Some just treat it as a loss leader that will (hopefully) encourage sales while gamers are hanging about in the store.

And, of course, if the store closes, that gaming venue goes away, and gamers find themselves looking for somewhere else to play... which is where the perceived responsibility of the customer to support the store's chosen business model comes from.


That shouldered responsibility is always going to be dependent on just how much any given customer actually cares about that specific venue remaining open.

SemperMortis wrote:
Because simply put, back when I started playing the company was decent. Now however? not so much. The company cares so little about its customer base that it is amazing that they are still able to turn a profit.

I am like you, trust me, I know what you mean. I feel the exact same way. For me though not supporting someone means not having to do nothing with them anymore. That is all I meant. I guess "not supporting" we interpret that name differently.

How does a store survive on drinks and snacks (convenience stores can answer that pretty easily) or hobby paints/dice and comic? Well ask comicbook stores they can answer that one for you as well.

insaniak wrote:

Davor wrote:

Why play the game then if you will not support the company? Yes I know it's one thing to get something cheaper if need be but it sounds you have something to grind against GW. So why play there game if you hate them that much?

Liking a game and liking the company that makes it aren't the same thing...

Batter wife syndrome then? Or maybe just a broken marriage. "I still love him/her, but will not have sex, will not clean cook or support but we will still stay together for reasons."

Traditio wrote:

insaniak wrote:By selling a lot of them?

This.

This.

A thousand times this.

Walking into my FLGS and purchasing sodas over the course of several hours is qualitatively no different from purchasing coffee and hanging out at McDonalds or Starbucks.

Yes, I'm using their tables. But it's not like I'm taking it with me when I leave.

So then if a store survives by selling soda/drinks/snack/food, then to me they are in the wrong business.

Or if this is how stores make profits, or the answer then why does GW not do this?

Again, they are in the wrong business then. From what I have read or talked to the stores, they are not making much money on snacks and drinks. I guess each area is different then. I am just going by what I have seen in my area. And their answer most times the only reason they surveys is MtG, not soda/drinks/snacks or food.

GW shops are a different kettle of fish they don't pay their own bills like a flgs has to, they don't buy in their stock or pay wages the parent company does.

One man stores have one priority and that's sales which should be easy but due to prices being bonkers it's very hard to convince someone to start these days.

hobojebus wrote:
GW shops are a different kettle of fish they don't pay their own bills like a flgs has to, they don't buy in their stock or pay wages the parent company does.

One man stores have one priority and that's sales which should be easy but due to prices being bonkers it's very hard to convince someone to start these days.

nailed it, which is why most FLGS provide tables for people to play on, they might not charge for that table but they need them to attract the MTG people who pay through the nose, and to get those GW fans to come in and pay $1 for a can of soda that costs $.20 to purchase. They don't make as much money off the GW fans but they know they are an important part of the community and most have branched out to other hobbies as well as regularly purchasing new codexs, paints, brushes, dice, and the occasional new release.

As for why I still play and I don't support GW? Well I didn't answer that well last time. I will continue to play because I love the game, I will still show up to events and I will still get more models. What I won't do is pay GW any of that money. I will get them off EBAY or 3rd party vendors, because realistically I don't care about GW's licensing agreements and they can't do anything about it until I try to start selling myself which I won't do because of laziness

GW has shot themselves in the foot so many times that it has become a running joke in our community. No New FAQS/Errata in years. No public forums to communicate with GW, hell until recently you couldn't even contact them via Facebook.

The only way to contact GW was to E-mail or call directly, and then instead of talking to someone who can do something about the communities issues you talk to a glorified telemarketer who tells you that it isn't their fault, they can't do anything about it, but that they will try and see if someone who can do something about it will take a peak at it.

GW has known for YEARS the game is horribly imbalanced, and they want to keep it that way, they are hoping enough TFG WAAC players come about that they can make 1-3 armies super OP so that those WAAC TFG players go run and buy HUGE amounts of models for that army and rinse and repeat. Balance has never been a strong point for this company, but in recent years it has become terrible.

Davor wrote:


Batter wife syndrome then? Or maybe just a broken marriage. "I still love him/her, but will not have sex, will not clean cook or support but we will still stay together for reasons."

No, not very much like that at all.

So then if a store survives by selling soda/drinks/snack/food, then to me they are in the wrong business.

That would depend on just what sort of business they're in.

If they're getting to be a games store and not actualy making any money selling games, then yes, that would seem to be an issue.

If they're trying to be a gaming venue, and that's working for them, then they're doing it right...

 insaniak wrote:

Davor wrote:


Batter wife syndrome then? Or maybe just a broken marriage. "I still love him/her, but will not have sex, will not clean cook or support but we will still stay together for reasons."

No, not very much like that at all.

Then what would it be like?

If they're trying to be a gaming venue, and that's working for them, then they're doing it right...

I agree, thing is Nobody said gaming venue though, they said gaming stores.

Davor wrote:


Then what would it be like?

It would be like when someone has a miniatures game that they enjoy playing, despite not liking the prices of the miniatures for that game, or the business practices of the company that makes it.

Let's avoid trivialising one of the biggest social issues of Western culture by trying to equate collecting toy soldiers with domestic violence, shall we?

I don't like how Coca Cola operates death squads who murder peasants in Colombia, but I'll still pay for a Coke every now and then.

Good for you...?

Davor wrote:

If they're trying to be a gaming venue, and that's working for them, then they're doing it right...

I agree, thing is Nobody said gaming venue though, they said gaming stores.

In this context, I think it's more than fair to equate them given that we're talking about going in to use the facilities of a store (whether that's gaming tables, painting tables, card tables, etc).

Indeed. As gaming stores are expected to also be gaming venues, all it really comes down to is which way they choose to try to make their money.


As the internet gradually takes over from brick-and-mortar shopping, I suspect that more stores will have to look at ways to make the venue side of the business more profitable, because chasing the already-elusive retail dollar is going to get progressively harder.

SemperMortis wrote:
As for why I still play and I don't support GW? Well I didn't answer that well last time. I will continue to play because I love the game, I will still show up to events and I will still get more models. What I won't do is pay GW any of that money. I will get them off EBAY or 3rd party vendors, because realistically I don't care about GW's licensing agreements and they can't do anything about it until I try to start selling myself which I won't do because of laziness

I support your opinion in the sense that it is your money and you can choose to pay or play what you want, when you want to, but don't you think that buying products from third party vendors (provided they are not recasters) is not really functionally any different from buying from a FLGS? And that in either case, you're buying GW product off of someone who, going back down the line of resales, eventually bought it from GW?

Buying it from them gets them to put more money in GW's hands, since when you deplete a reseller's stock they (typically) need to replenish that stock. I understand the need to save money, as the costs behind buying some plastic or resin figurines is pretty ridiculous, but I think arguing that you don't support a FLGS because of your principles against supporting GW is kind of a fallacy. I myself buy most stuff off eBay, but I do support my store from time to time with model purchases in return for using their space.

Just my two cents. Not trying to devalue your position, I just think you might try thinking about this in a different way.

 Gratlugg wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
As for why I still play and I don't support GW? Well I didn't answer that well last time. I will continue to play because I love the game, I will still show up to events and I will still get more models. What I won't do is pay GW any of that money. I will get them off EBAY or 3rd party vendors, because realistically I don't care about GW's licensing agreements and they can't do anything about it until I try to start selling myself which I won't do because of laziness

I support your opinion in the sense that it is your money and you can choose to pay or play what you want, when you want to, but don't you think that buying products from third party vendors (provided they are not recasters) is not really functionally any different from buying from a FLGS? And that in either case, you're buying GW product off of someone who, going back down the line of resales, eventually bought it from GW?

Buying it from them gets them to put more money in GW's hands, since when you deplete a reseller's stock they (typically) need to replenish that stock. I understand the need to save money, as the costs behind buying some plastic or resin figurines is pretty ridiculous, but I think arguing that you don't support a FLGS because of your principles against supporting GW is kind of a fallacy. I myself buy most stuff off eBay, but I do support my store from time to time with model purchases in return for using their space.

Just my two cents. Not trying to devalue your position, I just think you might try thinking about this in a different way.

Ohh no, im talking about recasting 3rd parties. Companies that GW shuts down for violating a number of laws.

I did mention i buy everything else from the FLGS near me. Dice, Comics, paints and what not. I just refuse to give GW any money.

One thing stores need to do obviously is don't sell "don't have it".

Was looking for citadel and vallejo air colours. I need to order them online anyway due to nearest store being 60km away. Anyway figured maybe I'll buy from finnish store on principle they might deliver faster than english one...Well let's see.

Vallejo air: Nope. Zip. Nada. Nothing.
Citadel air: Few available, most(including all I wanted) 2-3 WEEKS from order.

British store: All available. One paint I saw as not in store with delivery 2-5 days. DAYS. Not WEEKS like finnish store.

Guess which one I went from? Postage is free for same for roughly same priced order as well. Okay postage takes 2-3 days more but ah well. 2-3 days more is still shorter than 2-3 weeks last time I checked.

Since I tend to be one shop to rule them all rather than order from n+1 store guess which one also has higher chance of getting other orders...

I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

Our local gaming store isn't doing to well on the modeling side of things. They make most of their money from snacks and CCG. Even the comic book store attached doesn't do well...people walk in, check out a comic, and then buy it online to have it always available.

Personally, I think the business model needs to change for the BM stores. I remember watching the movie Kick Ass, and was blown away at the comic store they hang out in. It seemed to me to be more of a food/sit down place that happened to carry nerdy gear and comics, rather than a store. It seems a much better model than selling stuff people can get online at a bigger discount and relying on good will.

When we did play 40k, games could take between 2-4 hours per game, and nobody wants to leave and get food. But the only thing to eat is about 15 min away. If they served real food there, rather than candy, I'd pay for it. I'd probably buy 1-2 meals a day there, along with snacks throughout the day to support them. But I'm not going to buy a overpriced kit I don't need just to support them, I don't need or want any more models.

Akiasura wrote:
Our local gaming store isn't doing to well on the modeling side of things. They make most of their money from snacks and CCG. Even the comic book store attached doesn't do well...people walk in, check out a comic, and then buy it online to have it always available.

Personally, I think the business model needs to change for the BM stores. I remember watching the movie Kick Ass, and was blown away at the comic store they hang out in. It seemed to me to be more of a food/sit down place that happened to carry nerdy gear and comics, rather than a store. It seems a much better model than selling stuff people can get online at a bigger discount and relying on good will.

When we did play 40k, games could take between 2-4 hours per game, and nobody wants to leave and get food. But the only thing to eat is about 15 min away. If they served real food there, rather than candy, I'd pay for it. I'd probably buy 1-2 meals a day there, along with snacks throughout the day to support them. But I'm not going to buy a overpriced kit I don't need just to support them, I don't need or want any more models.

Okay, now I'm imagining the Kick Ass coffee shop/comic book store with game tables. I may have to look into the logistics of something like this.

 Cobra66 wrote:
I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

Err...no, ffg goes to great lengths, pp does but GW left us to rot with no erretas or faq's for years.

Bretonions had the same book for over a decade...A DECADE for feths sake.

They only started again because sales are tanking.

But despite that there's limits to what you can take in 40k. In MTG it's free from all restrictions. That was his point. In MTG you can take deck of best cards only. All you need to do is buy hell of a cards to get them or buy singles. Either way literally pay to win(or at least increase your chances of winning dramatically).

He wasn't talking about faqs or erratas.

Cobra66 wrote:I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

So you have become TFG who needs to win then. Or you just have become TFG for making a super deck. A lot of people I know play MtG for fun as well as completion. When they play me they don't have the super duper deck that you just made.

Also how the heck is 40K balanced?

hobojebus wrote:

 Cobra66 wrote:
I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

Err...no, ffg goes to great lengths, pp does but GW left us to rot with no erretas or faq's for years.

Bretonions had the same book for over a decade...A DECADE for feths sake.

They only started again because sales are tanking.

So true.

Davor wrote:

Cobra66 wrote:I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

So you have become TFG who needs to win then. Or you just have become TFG for making a super deck. A lot of people I know play MtG for fun as well as completion. When they play me they don't have the super duper deck that you just made.

Also how the heck is 40K balanced?

So you assume MTG players aren't only interested in building most powerful deck but somehow every 40k player is...

Or is that one standard for MTG players and another for 40k players?

Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

7th was a blatant cash grab it utterly failed to fix major issues, most of the fluff was copy and pasted over from 6th, and letting you take super heavies in normal games was gobsmackingly moronic, certainly not worth buying only two years after 6th.

I quit because of 7th it was no longer a game I wanted to play, unless 8th is a massive improvement i'll dump my stuff on eBay get what I can for them.

tneva82 wrote:

Davor wrote:

Cobra66 wrote:I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

So you have become TFG who needs to win then. Or you just have become TFG for making a super deck. A lot of people I know play MtG for fun as well as completion. When they play me they don't have the super duper deck that you just made.

Also how the heck is 40K balanced?

So you assume MTG players aren't only interested in building most powerful deck but somehow every 40k player is...

Or is that one standard for MTG players and another for 40k players?

HUH? Cobra66 said he could go out and do it. He didn't say he would make a friendly deck but a most powerful one. That is what I was commenting on. I said if he did that he just became TFG. Where did I say all MtG or 40K players do this? Where is this assuming everyone does or doesn't do anything?

hobojebus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

7th was a blatant cash grab it utterly failed to fix major issues, most of the fluff was copy and pasted over from 6th, and letting you take super heavies in normal games was gobsmackingly moronic, certainly not worth buying only two years after 6th.

I quit because of 7th it was no longer a game I wanted to play, unless 8th is a massive improvement i'll dump my stuff on eBay get what I can for them.

What fits into the picture is that a GW store manager told one of my friends recently that "40k is dead". Surprising statement, maybe not.

 wuestenfux wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

7th was a blatant cash grab it utterly failed to fix major issues, most of the fluff was copy and pasted over from 6th, and letting you take super heavies in normal games was gobsmackingly moronic, certainly not worth buying only two years after 6th.

I quit because of 7th it was no longer a game I wanted to play, unless 8th is a massive improvement i'll dump my stuff on eBay get what I can for them.

What fits into the picture is that a GW store manager told one of my friends recently that "40k is dead". Surprising statement, maybe not.

Store managers will also tell you that 7th didn't make normal 40k more like Apocalypse.

 wuestenfux wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

7th was a blatant cash grab it utterly failed to fix major issues, most of the fluff was copy and pasted over from 6th, and letting you take super heavies in normal games was gobsmackingly moronic, certainly not worth buying only two years after 6th.

I quit because of 7th it was no longer a game I wanted to play, unless 8th is a massive improvement i'll dump my stuff on eBay get what I can for them.

What fits into the picture is that a GW store manager told one of my friends recently that "40k is dead". Surprising statement, maybe not.

I don't think 40k is dead, I believe that it is surely dying though. The interest in the game has dropped off significantly. I used to go to Saturday/sunday game days and see 10-20 people at the store, Even the larger stores with 8+ tables had people waiting to use the tables. Now? Most of that space is being used for storage or other stock because 40k doesn't draw nearly as much.

Here is my take as a very new player.

The game is fething expensive and people shame you for finding cheaper alternatives.

I love my local store and I buy from them where I can. I even have even asked them to place orders for me even though I could have done it faster, easier, and probably cheaper through the GW website myself.

But I've also scoured ebay and craiglist looking for good deals and been called a scumbag (somewhat playfully, granted) for it.

And that's just the dang models. You also need books. Supplements. Templates. You need a way to transport your stuff. You're talking about hundreds of dollars on its own.

It's just so much damn money.

Qlanth wrote:
Here is my take as a very new player.

The game is fething expensive and people shame you for finding cheaper alternatives.

I love my local store and I buy from them where I can. I even have even asked them to place orders for me even though I could have done it faster, easier, and probably cheaper through the GW website myself.

But I've also scoured ebay and craiglist looking for good deals and been called a scumbag (somewhat playfully, granted) for it.

And that's just the dang models. You also need books. Supplements. Templates. You need a way to transport your stuff. You're talking about hundreds of dollars on its own.

It's just so much damn money.

Yes it is, so much damn money. Thing is, you want it or not. I want but will not pay the price GW asks. So I don't buy.

As for anyone shaming you, they are a holes. Nobody should shame anyone for you trying to find alternative ways to play. You are better off not even associating people like that. They are scum. Hopefully I just didn't call your family scum now.

Davor wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Davor wrote:

Cobra66 wrote:I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

So you have become TFG who needs to win then. Or you just have become TFG for making a super deck. A lot of people I know play MtG for fun as well as completion. When they play me they don't have the super duper deck that you just made.

Also how the heck is 40K balanced?

So you assume MTG players aren't only interested in building most powerful deck but somehow every 40k player is...

Or is that one standard for MTG players and another for 40k players?

HUH? Cobra66 said he could go out and do it. He didn't say he would make a friendly deck but a most powerful one. That is what I was commenting on. I said if he did that he just became TFG. Where did I say all MtG or 40K players do this? Where is this assuming everyone does or doesn't do anything?

If you rely on opponent handicapping himself that applies to 40k at which point there's no point commenting on 40k because it's handled by players.

But unlike MTG 40k at least has some sort of system besides gamers agreement to balance things out. It's not perfect but at least unlike game isn't designed "he who spends most money has most powerful army". Unlike MTG.

Except of course, that like most games, 40k has a shifting meta over time that must be kept up with, so what may have been cheap and funcional last year wont work this year and youll need a new army

Likewise, with MTG, you can get amazing cards relatively cheap if you draw them from a pack, granted its luck of the draw, but its there. It is the secondary market driven by supply and demand that makes it so expensive if you are after specific cards, but WotC themselves doesnt charge anyone $30 for a card, the secondary market does.

Qlanth wrote:
Here is my take as a very new player.

The game is fething expensive and people shame you for finding cheaper alternatives.

The greatest trick GW ever pulled was convincing the world that other tabletop games are an "alternative" to 40k.

Checkers is for Checkers players, Warmachine is for Warmachine players, Battletech is for Battletech players, 40k is for 40k players. There are no "alternatives" to any of these games. You either play the game or you don't.

If the FLGS crowd makes fun of you for suggesting a different game, they're world-class D-bags and you don't want to play any sort of game with them. They're not going to magically transform into decent human beings because you convince them to play a game of Warmachine. A TFG by any other name is still TFG, and everything TFG touches turns to crap.

 Real News wrote:
The greatest trick GW ever pulled was convincing the world that other tabletop games are an "alternative" to 40k.

Checkers is for Checkers players, Warmachine is for Warmachine players, Battletech is for Battletech players, 40k is for 40k players. There are no "alternatives" to any of these games. You either play the game or you don't.

If the FLGS crowd makes fun of you for suggesting a different game, they're world-class D-bags and you don't want to play any sort of game with them. They're not going to magically transform into decent human beings because you convince them to play a game of Warmachine. A TFG by any other name is still TFG, and everything TFG touches turns to crap.

Nice rant, but the post you quoted was talking about alternative sources for 40k models (buying used stuff on ebay, etc) not playing other games instead of 40k. Read before ranting next time?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
40k was all but dead in my old area. Asking for 50+ dollars for a 5 man squad that you'll need many duplicates of just killed any potential for newbies. I can only imagine the horrors NZ and Australia went through.

Or the same thing in the US if you play Sisters.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Could be worse. They could have opened up a store literally underneath a FLGS and have to watch people heading upstairs and totally ignoring them

Sydney Central Good Games.
I've looked into the basement GW...lets just say ignorance is not missing much.

Sorry, back on topic.
My FLGS doesn't charge for tables, holds at least one mini tournament a week, a one day tournament every month and is trying to kick off a 6 month planet strike-ish campaign, all for 40k. The reason is that the 40k community goes out of their way to make sure the FLGS wants them around, they build and donate terrain, they clean up after their games (MtG and Yugioh players are terrible, they leave rubbish everywhere), the 40k community pitches in and donates to a store credit pool that goes to the best new player encouraging new people into their community. The reason the FLGS keeps a $5000 GW shelf is because the 40k community makes it worth it to the store.

It's the FLGS job to stay afloat but it's not their job to keep a community that isn't making them any money.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except of course, that like most games, 40k has a shifting meta over time that must be kept up with, so what may have been cheap and funcional last year wont work this year and youll need a new army

Likewise, with MTG, you can get amazing cards relatively cheap if you draw them from a pack, granted its luck of the draw, but its there. It is the secondary market driven by supply and demand that makes it so expensive if you are after specific cards, but WotC themselves doesnt charge anyone $30 for a card, the secondary market does.

You think it's going to be cheap by luck of the draw to get deck of ONLY the most powerful cards? Ie no inferior card if there's better card available...

Good luck! Might just as well try your luck with lotto if you think you don't need to buy crapload of packs to get that deck.

Yes you CAN get deck cheaply. You just are outclassed by somebody who spends up crapload of money either by buying ridiculous number of packs or buying them singly. That's pretty much pay to win...Since there's no restrictions BESIDES your real money in deck building you have just 2 options. Pay a lot or accept worse deck.

tneva82 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except of course, that like most games, 40k has a shifting meta over time that must be kept up with, so what may have been cheap and funcional last year wont work this year and youll need a new army

Likewise, with MTG, you can get amazing cards relatively cheap if you draw them from a pack, granted its luck of the draw, but its there. It is the secondary market driven by supply and demand that makes it so expensive if you are after specific cards, but WotC themselves doesnt charge anyone $30 for a card, the secondary market does.

You think it's going to be cheap by luck of the draw to get deck of ONLY the most powerful cards? Ie no inferior card if there's better card available...

I did say it was luck of the draw, but there are mechanisms to obtain very good cards very cheaply to at least somewhat offset the cost of buying them all individually, and doing so also gets you the more mundane stuff the fill up most of the deck.

Likewise, if you're not playing at high levels of competition with people spending lots of money, this works perfectly well. With 40k, you can be playing super casually and still run into both gigantic balance issues *and* different armies costing vastly different sums. An IG army for example will generally cost 40-100% more than a Space Marine army just due to the larger number of models required.

tneva82 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except of course, that like most games, 40k has a shifting meta over time that must be kept up with, so what may have been cheap and funcional last year wont work this year and youll need a new army

Likewise, with MTG, you can get amazing cards relatively cheap if you draw them from a pack, granted its luck of the draw, but its there. It is the secondary market driven by supply and demand that makes it so expensive if you are after specific cards, but WotC themselves doesnt charge anyone $30 for a card, the secondary market does.

You think it's going to be cheap by luck of the draw to get deck of ONLY the most powerful cards? Ie no inferior card if there's better card available...

Good luck! Might just as well try your luck with lotto if you think you don't need to buy crapload of packs to get that deck.

Yes you CAN get deck cheaply. You just are outclassed by somebody who spends up crapload of money either by buying ridiculous number of packs or buying them singly. That's pretty much pay to win...Since there's no restrictions BESIDES your real money in deck building you have just 2 options. Pay a lot or accept worse deck.

MTG player here, you do know that there are many formats for MTG aside from standard, right? Draft is $15 to $30, sealed is slightly more and those formats are don't allow you to play with cards outide of the 3 or 6 packs you get. There are also formats like pauper (all commons), commander (100 card singleton). MTG has budget options where no amount of money gives you an advantage.

 Canadian 5th wrote:


MTG player here, you do know that there are many formats for MTG aside from standard, right? Draft is $15 to $30, sealed is slightly more and those formats are don't allow you to play with cards outide of the 3 or 6 packs you get. There are also formats like pauper (all commons), commander (100 card singleton). MTG has budget options where no amount of money gives you an advantage.

Well at least there is one thing that GW would love about this format. It's a random. All cards are random and GW just loves random.

Imagine playing a 40K league or even and everything was random to the faction you play to the minis you can use. Just like poker, it would be luck of the draw.

Well any fool can make a chart and tell you to roll a die, means they can employ fewer real games developers.

Davor wrote:

Imagine playing a 40K league or even and everything was random to the faction you play to the minis you can use. Just like poker, it would be luck of the draw.

This sounds like fun to me.

 jasper76 wrote:

Davor wrote:

Imagine playing a 40K league or even and everything was random to the faction you play to the minis you can use. Just like poker, it would be luck of the draw.

This sounds like fun to me.

There was an FLGS that did a 40k "draft" tournament where you assembled your list from the available models provided, taking turns buying units.

You'll have to search for that thread. I'd do that with my buddies, but I wouldn't take my models for other people to use I didn't know well.

 kronk wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

Davor wrote:

Imagine playing a 40K league or even and everything was random to the faction you play to the minis you can use. Just like poker, it would be luck of the draw.

This sounds like fun to me.

There was an FLGS that did a 40k "draft" tournament where you assembled your list from the available models provided, taking turns buying units.

You'll have to search for that thread. I'd do that with my buddies, but I wouldn't take my models for other people to use I didn't know well.

My FLGS is doing a Get Started box league. All you do is pick a faction that has a Get Started box and using only the minis in the box, make an army for 400 points. I think it goes for 6 months or or so. We play 2 games per month. I think that can be the closest to a blind like Magic, but can't be a blind because we have to assemble and paint our minis ahead of time.

I am just shocked how much fun it can be playing at 400 points with only the contents you have.