My Turkish friends speak of a coup d'etat possibly going on right now.
Electricity went off in Istanbul for 15 minutes half an hour ago, the birdges of Istanbul have been closed by Millitary, Ankara (Capital) has been shut down, attack helicopters flew low altitude in capital and fired guns people say, hospitals are now full of soldiers guarding them, Fighter jets flying at low altitude over Istanbul
Possible coup d'etat, probably haven't been told to Foreign news yet.
Fighter jets over Istanbul, curfew, bridges closed off, army in Istanbul and Ankara, even rumors of the police being disarmed - chances are it's a coup in Turkey tonight.
So yeh, tomorrow army might cut off Internet of whole Turkey and not make it reachable (except Millitary staff ofc) until coup d'etat is over, so yeah.. see yah boys
Turkey's PM has denounced an "illegal action" by a military "group", with bridges closed in Istanbul and aircraft flying low over the capital, Ankara.
Binali Yildirim said the military action was not authorised but it was not a coup. He said that the government remained in charge.
Traffic has been stopped from crossing both the Bosphorus and Fatih Sultan Mehmet bridges in Istanbul.
There are also reports of gunshots in the capital Ankara.
Considering there is a quote of the PM saying it was a coup before this, I don't think we'll know much for a bit.
On the one hand, I really want Erdogan to go. On the other hand, Hollywood tells me coups are bad and are inevitable part of an evil scheme to destroy the world (and only a British spy can save us!)
Turkish military claims to have overthrown Erdogan and taken control of country
In a statement, the Turkish military says the rule of law must remain the priority.
Not necessarily as bad as you might think. The Turkish Army, like the Egyptian Army, has general viewed itself as an independent branch of government in service to the best interests of the state. They view themselves as the people's army, not the government's. It's something that's part of their military culture and they take great pride in it. The current Turkish government hasn't been very popular in Turkey. Especially with all the tensions in Syria, with the Kurds, ISIS, and Erdogan's saber rattling/friendliness with religious groups. Of course for all I know this is just part of the military and Erdogan is the one taking over? I'm not really an expert on the internal politics of the Turkish Army.
Could be bad. Times in Turkey are tense. This could see an even more radical regime put into place (though probably not of a religious variety). It could see a rewind of the past 20 years of Turkish politics, which have not been positive.
Well, if it is a coup, I only hope it's relatively bloodless - though if Erdogan buys it, I won't be shedding many tears. The idea of a prolonged, bloody civil war in Turkey is not a pleasant one.
Dorian Jones a British journalist based in Istanbul said:
“Tanks are seen in the streets. There are reports of clashes between the police and the army,” he told Sky News, adding there were also reports that police guarding the presidential palace had been disarmed.
“I have been speaking to various friends across the city, some are reporting that they are hearing gunfire in the streets.”
If the Palace police have been disarmed, would seem to lend credence to the claim that Erdogan is out of power at this point in time.
Not necessarily as bad as you might think. The Turkish Army, like the Egyptian Army, has general viewed itself as an independent branch of government in service to the best interests of the state. They view themselves as the people's army, not the government's. It's something that's part of their military culture and they take great pride in it. The current Turkish government hasn't been very popular in Turkey. Especially with all the tensions in Syria, with the Kurds, ISIS, and Erdogan's saber rattling/friendliness with religious groups. Of course for all I know this is just part of the military and Erdogan is the one taking over? I'm not really an expert on the internal politics of the Turkish Army.
Could be bad. Times in Turkey are tense. This could see an even more radical regime put into place (though probably not of a religious variety). It could see a rewind of the past 20 years of Turkish politics, which have not been positive.
I know the military in Turkey is genereally more secular than Erdogan & company, but it's not like more instability in the region is what was needed right now. A civil war breaking out in Turkey would be completely god-awful on so many levels.
Okay. This is huge. On one hand, if it gets rid of Erdogan, that will be good. But on the other hand, more instability in the region is exactly what we don't need... Best we can hope for I think is that the coup succeeds and that the military will set Turkey back on the secular, liberal course of Ataturk and then hand over power to civilian authorities again. If the coup fails, Erdogan's wrath will be terrible, his retribution swift.
Too be far, the Turks and the Ottomans before them have a long history of getting rid of their leaders. The Jannisarys basically acted like the old Praetorian Guard.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I know the military in Turkey is genereally more secular than Erdogan & company, but it's not like more instability in the region is what was needed right now. A civil war breaking out in Turkey would be completely god-awful on so many levels.
Civil Wars get messy when the Army splits sides. An Army that's all on one side isn't much of a civil war, especially not if that Army is staging a coup in response to popular demand. We don't have much information, so this is all just conjecture, but this could turn out better for the region. A new Turkish government might back off it's hostility towards Assad, which would be a huge boon towards getting a multinational coalition going. They might also start dealing with some very harsh realities of Turkey, namely racism and exclusion that keeps Kurds outsiders in Turkey, and that isolates Turkey from Europe (Armenian genocide denial).
We just don't know yet. This could end up making things better.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I know the military in Turkey is genereally more secular than Erdogan & company, but it's not like more instability in the region is what was needed right now. A civil war breaking out in Turkey would be completely god-awful on so many levels.
Civil Wars get messy when the Army splits sides. An Army that's all on one side isn't much of a civil war, especially not if that Army is staging a coup in response to popular demand. We don't have much information, so this is all just conjecture, but this could turn out better for the region. A new Turkish government might back off it's hostility towards Assad, which would be a huge boon towards getting a multinational coalition going. They might also start dealing with some very harsh realities of Turkey, namely racism and exclusion that keeps Kurds outsiders in Turkey, and that isolates Turkey from Europe (Armenian genocide denial).
We just don't know yet. This could end up making things better.
Sure, it could. It could also spiral out of control completely. Think the refugee crisis in Europe is bad now?
welshhoppo wrote: Too be far, the Turks and the Ottomans before them have a long history of getting rid of their leaders. The Jannisarys basically acted like the old Praetorian Guard.
The problem here is that like him or not, Erdogan WAS democratically elected. Sure he wanted to be a dictator, but he isn't one yet.
What this says is that if the public elects someone the military disagrees with, they'll remove him. That effectively means that any elected politician now rules at the sufferance of the military, and can be removed if he irritates them. In other words, it ceases to be a democracy.
Ketara wrote: The problem here is that like him or not, Erdogan WAS democratically elected. Sure he wanted to be a dictator, but he isn't one yet.
What this says is that if the public elects someone the military disagrees with, they'll remove him. That effectively means that any elected politician now rules at the sufferance of the military, and can be removed if he irritates them. In other words, it ceases to be a democracy.
This is all assuming the coup comes off.
Same thing happened in Egypt. Most people cheered that one.
Iron_Captain wrote: Okay. This is huge.
On one hand, if it gets rid of Erdogan, that will be good. But on the other hand, more instability in the region is exactly what we don't need...
Best we can hope for I think is that the coup succeeds and that the military will set Turkey back on the secular, liberal course of Ataturk and then hand over power to civilian authorities again. If the coup fails, Erdogan's wrath will be terrible, his retribution swift.
Liberalism is kind of gaking itself all over these days so even if that happened it isn't a guarantee for anything long-term and that's without fully considering the home-grown Islamists who aren't going to like this at all.
Ketara wrote: What this says is that if the public elects someone the military disagrees with, they'll remove him. That effectively means that any elected politician now rules at the sufferance of the military, and can be removed if he irritates them. In other words, it ceases to be a democracy.
Political Science calls it a hybrid regime, but this isn't a new status quo in Turkey. The Turkish military has intervened into Turkish politics about a dozen times since the formation of the Republic. And of course, there's still 1993, where maybe there was a coup, maybe there wasn't.
People in the West would actually be surprised how popular the military can be in countries like Egypt and Turkey for doing this sort of thing. So long as they don't impose harsh martial law and military regimes, and a more democratic government is restored to power, it's often seen as a good thing that protect people from government going rampant.
It kind of tears at me. As an American I'm pretty much hardwired to believe in democracy as a solution to ills, however imperfect it may be. As an academic, I know better than to put stock into that hokus pokus. Erdogan wanted to be a dictator, and he was making progress in getting. Part of me is really happy that the military is jumping in and removing him (me lol typos) to protect the country. Part of me knows that's hokus pokus too. I'll probably have to wait a few years before I can know if I'm really happy or sad that this happened.
Ketara wrote: The problem here is that like him or not, Erdogan WAS democratically elected. Sure he wanted to be a dictator, but he isn't one yet.
What this says is that if the public elects someone the military disagrees with, they'll remove him. That effectively means that any elected politician now rules at the sufferance of the military, and can be removed if he irritates them. In other words, it ceases to be a democracy.
This is all assuming the coup comes off.
Same thing happened in Egypt. Most people cheered that one.
Yeah, but the military were in power before Morsi, they were just reasserting control. This is a bit different.
Ketara wrote: The problem here is that like him or not, Erdogan WAS democratically elected. Sure he wanted to be a dictator, but he isn't one yet.
What this says is that if the public elects someone the military disagrees with, they'll remove him. That effectively means that any elected politician now rules at the sufferance of the military, and can be removed if he irritates them. In other words, it ceases to be a democracy.
This is all assuming the coup comes off.
That's only if the military is only doing it for their own interests, and not the interests of the people. If the military is taking the side of the people, then it's not necessarily as bad as it looks. Lately, it seems like in some of the more westernized majority-Muslim countries (I'm thinking of Egypt as another example) the military has kind of been functioning as an alternative or a supplement to a checks and balances type system. It may not be the way we operate in the US and western Europe, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily all bad (again, with the caveat that the military acts in support of the people, and not simply the military leaders' own interests or ambitions).
Ketara wrote: The problem here is that like him or not, Erdogan WAS democratically elected. Sure he wanted to be a dictator, but he isn't one yet.
What this says is that if the public elects someone the military disagrees with, they'll remove him. That effectively means that any elected politician now rules at the sufferance of the military, and can be removed if he irritates them. In other words, it ceases to be a democracy.
This is all assuming the coup comes off.
Same thing happened in Egypt. Most people cheered that one.
Yeah, but the military were in power before Morsi, they were just reasserting control. This is a bit different.
Only because they took control from Mubarak, and then allowed elections to take place. This could potentially be the same kind of situation (or not). But we don't know that yet.
People in the West would actually be surprised how popular the military can be in countries like Egypt and Turkey for doing this sort of thing. So long as they don't impose harsh martial law and military regimes, and a more democratic government is restored to power, it's often seen as a good thing that protect people from government going rampant.
If people weren't sick of the military, though, AKP wouldn't have won so many votes. I doubt this is going to be very fun.
Guess I'm not too familiar with politics in turkey. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, could anyone estimate a 'badness' rank of this event, where a 10 is 'full blown ISIS takeover of country' and a 1 is 'welcome removal of oppressive tyrant'?
#BREAKING TURKISH JUSTICE MINISTER SAYS US-BASED IMAM FETHULLAH GULEN'S FOLLOWERS IN MILITARY ATTEMPTING TO SEIZE POWER
— Ragıp Soylu (@ragipsoylu) July 15, 2016
Who's that?
"US based" imam?
o.O
Gulen is to Erdogan what Emmanuel Goldstein is to Big Brother. A more or less imaginary enemy of the state leading this huge conspiracy that is behind everything going wrong in the country.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Guess I'm not too familiar with politics in turkey. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, could anyone estimate a 'badness' rank of this event, where a 10 is 'full blown ISIS takeover of country' and a 1 is 'welcome removal of oppressive tyrant'?
Or is it kind of hard to tell at this point?
I would go with 3 at this point. It is NOT an DaIsh take over. The military is secular and disliked Erdogan's move towards Islamization.
EDIT: I read your scale wrong, thinking 1 was DaIsh take over... Sorry
Kap'n Krump wrote: Guess I'm not too familiar with politics in turkey. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, could anyone estimate a 'badness' rank of this event, where a 10 is 'full blown ISIS takeover of country' and a 1 is 'welcome removal of oppressive tyrant'?
Kap'n Krump wrote: Guess I'm not too familiar with politics in turkey. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, could anyone estimate a 'badness' rank of this event, where a 10 is 'full blown ISIS takeover of country' and a 1 is 'welcome removal of oppressive tyrant'?
Or is it kind of hard to tell at this point?
Kind of hard to tell at this point I think, but it probably won't take incredibly long to find out. It could be below 5. It could be way over (but definitely not 10 if 10 is a ISIS/Daesh) takeover.
Ketara wrote: The problem here is that like him or not, Erdogan WAS democratically elected. Sure he wanted to be a dictator, but he isn't one yet.
What this says is that if the public elects someone the military disagrees with, they'll remove him. That effectively means that any elected politician now rules at the sufferance of the military, and can be removed if he irritates them. In other words, it ceases to be a democracy.
Turkish democracy always had that nod-from-the-military shtick going. It wasn't always obvious, but it never went away.
People in the West would actually be surprised how popular the military can be in countries like Egypt and Turkey for doing this sort of thing. So long as they don't impose harsh martial law and military regimes, and a more democratic government is restored to power, it's often seen as a good thing that protect people from government going rampant.
If people weren't sick of the military, though, AKP wouldn't have won so many votes. I doubt this is going to be very fun.
The thing is that in Turkey there is this huge divide between conservative rurals (who tend to be pro-islamist and huge Erdogan fans) and secular urbanites. The Turkish military tends to share the same values as the urban population (in fact, they are often seen as the guardian of those values). So that means that while a large portion of the population may be fed up with the army as it opposes their values and their elected government, there is another smaller but more influential part of the population that tends to see the army as champions of Ataturk's secular principles (which undoubtedly is how the Turkish military likes to see itself too) that is now taking down an out-of-control government. How much fun it is going to be depends on how much of the army is behind the coup and on what part is still loyal to Erdogan.
Senior US military source tells NBC News that Erdogan, refused landing rights in Istanbul, is reported to be seeking asylum in Germany.
— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) July 15, 2016
Report: Turkish military releases statement, saying armed forces have ‘fully seized control’ of the country.
— The Associated Press (@AP) July 15, 2016
Coming from a Turkish family, my folks and my brother are absolutely ecstatic over the news. They've been hating on Erdogan for years now. I'm really curious where this is going to go, hopefully all ends well. In the meantime I will count my lucky stars that my family came to Canada in time for me to be born here. God bless this wonderful country of maple syrup, beavers, and free health care!
reuters reports that a military helicopter opened fire in Istanbul. I hope it's just a short engagement with some very brave (and potentially very short-term-thinking) policemen...
Witzkatz wrote: reuters reports that a military helicopter opened fire in Istanbul. I hope it's just a short engagement with some very brave (and potentially very short-term-thinking) policemen...
Lots of video of it. Looks like they were shooting at the HQ of MIT (Intel service) and also at police loyal to Erdogan.
The thing is, 2 coups happened in Turkey before this attempt and the things about coups is you do it in INSTANT you !@#$ing raid houses of major government leaders and take them in your control and hold them in custody, and millitary is supposed to be working as a whole together to do it.
In this case, there is skirmishes in Millitary Headquarters which means its just a faction of Millitary group but not whole army (the army has been divided by Erodgan supporters and anti ones to two many years ago political view wise) and Erdogan being still free says that there is high chance of this coup failing.
AND if it fails, I hope that it does not, will make Erdogan even stronger.
Just saw video of a tank being mobbed by protesters. Very pleased with the discipline of the crew, looked like they tried very hard to avoid injuring civilians (though they did flatten a couple parked cars to get away from the mob).
The thing is, 2 coups happened in Turkey before this attempt and the things about coups is you do it in INSTANT you !@#$ing raid houses of major government leaders and take them in your control and hold them in custody, and millitary is supposed to be working as a whole together to do it.
In this case, there is skirmishes in Millitary Headquarters which means its just a faction of Millitary group but not whole army (the army has been divided by Erodgan supporters and anti ones to two many years ago political view wise) and Erdogan being still free says that there is high chance of this coup failing.
AND if it fails, I hope that it does not, will make Erdogan even stronger.
That's really ensured that no matter what the result is, the people of Turkey lose. By demanding that they fight for their country and religion, Erdogan and his ilk have set two possibilities:
The military loses, and Erdogan doubles down on being a tyrannical see-you-next-tuesday as punishment.
The military wins, and you suddenly have a country split between the military and anti-Erdogan residents, and Erdogan plus ranks of people he whipped into fighting back, which reeks of impending civil war.
Avatar 720 wrote: That's really ensured that no matter what the result is, the people of Turkey lose. By demanding that they fight for their country and religion, Erdogan and his ilk have set two possibilities:
The military loses, and Erdogan doubles down on being a tyrannical see-you-next-tuesday as punishment.
The military wins, and you suddenly have a country split between the military and anti-Erdogan residents, and Erdogan plus ranks of people he whipped into fighting back, which reeks of impending civil war.
This was the inevitable reaction to the coup. There is nothing else that could have happened. A lot of people voted for the AKP because they didn't want the military ruling them and some of those people are going to be very displeased with this development to put it mildly.
Richard Engel ✔ @RichardEngel
Erdogan from undisclosed location called on his supporters to take to the streets to defend him. Turkey coup
5:06 PM - 15 Jul 2016
Aaaand, the White House just couldn't help themselves:
NBC Nightly NewsVerified account
@NBCNightlyNews
BREAKING: White House: Pres. Obama, Sec. Kerry agree that all parties in Turkey should support democratically-elected government of Turkey.
If the military wins they'll be dealing with either a civil war or fighting extremists. Turkey's been taking a blind eye to such group's movements for years, so there's bound to be a deal of them invested in the current regime.
From the West's perspective I'm wondering if we'd rather stick with a dictator who aids terrorists, or another Jihadi filled quagmire. I suppose it doesn't always go that way, but colour my cynical.
Well, the military just seems to have dropped a bomb on the Turkish parliament building. They do not seem like they are going to back down.
Whether it will turn into a civil war or not really depends on how much of the military is still behind Erdogan. If the military is all behind the coup, there won't be much of a war. The military has all the weapons and equipment, it will only be a matter of time then before Erdogan and his supporters are in jail or dead. Of course, it could also end like it did in Russia where the common soldiers turned on their officers rather than shoot protesting civilians. So far however they do not seem to have any trouble shooting at protesters. On short term the outcome will be bad regardless of what happens. Long term? Who can say?
Jon WilliamsVerified account
@WilliamsJon
Istanbul Police Chief says only 104 soldiers involved in #TurkeyCoup. Leader named as Col Muharrem Kose, recently dismissed as Gulen member.
*Only 104* soldiers?
EDIT: Nevermind... "fog of war" is in effect:
Drew McCoy @_Drew_McCoy_ 3m3 minutes ago
Here we go...coup soldiers are taking over CNN Turk in Istanbul.
Jon WilliamsVerified account
@WilliamsJon
Istanbul Police Chief says only 104 soldiers involved in #TurkeyCoup. Leader named as Col Muharrem Kose, recently dismissed as Gulen member.
*Only 104* soldiers?
EDIT: Nevermind... "fog of war" is in effect:
Drew McCoy @_Drew_McCoy_ 3m3 minutes ago
Here we go...coup soldiers are taking over CNN Turk in Istanbul.
Not over yet.
Had to have been a lot more then 104 soldiers. Saw a lot of pictures of armored vehicles, aircraft, etc... this had to have been in the thousands.
It's not just happening in Istanbul either. I doubt the Istanbul police chief can speak authoritatively on the status of the coup in the rest of the country. There hasn't been much footage from Ankara from what I've seen on CNN so far...a lot could be going on there.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The Islamic Extremists are the ones opposing the coup.
their PM is, but are there terrorist bombings? or? right now it sounds mostly military involvement, so far information coming from there is sketchy at best one side claiming victory, other side claiming victory, when all is said and done if it is not a clean victory for either side it could get drawn out and ugly and effect things on a more global scale.
Hordini wrote: It's not just happening in Istanbul either. I doubt the Istanbul police chief can speak authoritatively on the status of the coup in the rest of the country. There hasn't been much footage from Ankara from what I've seen on CNN so far...a lot could be going on there.
At this point both sides are going to engage in disinformation campaigns to sway public opinion. Trying to downplay the scale of the coup, and associate it's members with groups like Fethullah Gülen is step one for the Turkish government.
Until we can get comprehensive reports, pretty much everything we see on social media and Turkish news should be taken with a grain of salt. Information warfare is key in staging a good coup. I'm sure the military and the government in Turkey are both aware of this.
It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
We should support the putsch, and not this dictator.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
godardc wrote: It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
What choice do they really have? Like him or not, he is the legitimate leader of the Turkish state ( and boy do I not like him). The world stage isn't going to actively support the overthrow of a democratically elected leader, even if he is a donkey-cave. It's just not going to happen.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
I find that the only people who ever end up with a coup trying to overthrow them are people that have the support of their citizens...
godardc wrote: It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
We should support the putsch, and not this dictator.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
We don't really know who the people of Turkey are supporting at this point. I haven't seen anything conclusive in any of the video footage so far showing them supporting one side or the other.
godardc wrote: It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
We should support the putsch, and not this dictator.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
We don't really know who the people of Turkey are supporting at this point. I haven't seen anything conclusive in any of the video footage so far showing them supporting one side or the other.
from what I saw most of the citizens were doing what any smart civilian would do, find cover fast.
godardc wrote: It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
We should support the putsch, and not this dictator.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
We don't really know who the people of Turkey are supporting at this point. I haven't seen anything conclusive in any of the video footage so far showing them supporting one side or the other.
from what I saw most of the citizens were doing what any smart civilian would do, find cover fast.
You might want to check CNN's front page. It looks like there are a lot of civilians out in certain areas at least.
godardc wrote: It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
We should support the putsch, and not this dictator.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
We don't really know who the people of Turkey are supporting at this point. I haven't seen anything conclusive in any of the video footage so far showing them supporting one side or the other.
from what I saw most of the citizens were doing what any smart civilian would do, find cover fast.
You might want to check CNN's front page. It looks like there are a lot of civilians out in certain areas at least.
well watching news now and saw a bunch of people hiding and ducking down.
godardc wrote: It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
We should support the putsch, and not this dictator.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
We don't really know who the people of Turkey are supporting at this point. I haven't seen anything conclusive in any of the video footage so far showing them supporting one side or the other.
from what I saw most of the citizens were doing what any smart civilian would do, find cover fast.
You might want to check CNN's front page. It looks like there are a lot of civilians out in certain areas at least.
well watching news now and saw a bunch of people hiding and ducking down.
Do you know where? Was it Istanbul or somewhere else? Istanbul is humongous of course so there is probably a lot of different things going on depending on what part of the city is being shown.
godardc wrote: It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
We should support the putsch, and not this dictator.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
We don't really know who the people of Turkey are supporting at this point. I haven't seen anything conclusive in any of the video footage so far showing them supporting one side or the other.
from what I saw most of the citizens were doing what any smart civilian would do, find cover fast.
You might want to check CNN's front page. It looks like there are a lot of civilians out in certain areas at least.
well watching news now and saw a bunch of people hiding and ducking down.
Do you know where? Was it Istanbul or somewhere else? Istanbul is humongous of course so there is probably a lot of different things going on depending on what part of the city is being shown.
heard the CNN building was overtaken by the people behind the coup but think it was Istanbul
Pres. Erdogan is speaking at a press conference, live on NTV rn. #Turkey
Anup Kaphle @AnupKaphle 9m9 minutes ago
"This uprising was carried by a minority of the military that can't stand unity of the country," Erdogan says in Istanbul. #Turkey
@AnupKaphle
"Turkey is not the old Turkey anymore. The uprising will be a reason to "clean up" the army," Erdogan says in Istanbul. #Turkey
I wonder if after he purges the military, he'll declare a state of emergency and try something to maintain power like suspend elections and so on. Certainly sounds like the potential beginning of things going from bad to worse.
Liz SlyVerified account
@LizSly
Turkey's PM orders warplanes still loyal to the government to take to the skies to shoot down those still loyal to the coup plotters.
I wonder how many loyalist vs coup'ers are in the air.
Or will declaring his intent to purge the military be seen as an attack on the military as a whole, and drive more people to the coup side out of loyalty to their comrades? It seems to me like the kind of thing you say when you don't have control of the situation, an attempt to scare people into obedience. If the coup is only a minority and quickly being cleaned up the last thing you want to do is say is anything that the majority could view as a threat before the coup is actually over.
Peregrine wrote: Or will declaring his intent to purge the military be seen as an attack on the military as a whole, and drive more people to the coup side out of loyalty to their comrades?
Exactly my thoughts. And the simple fact that the Army managed to get jets in the air in support of the Coup should speak to the fact that the Turkey of today is, at least partially, still the Turkey of the 90s.
Peregrine wrote: Or will declaring his intent to purge the military be seen as an attack on the military as a whole, and drive more people to the coup side out of loyalty to their comrades? It seems to me like the kind of thing you say when you don't have control of the situation, an attempt to scare people into obedience. If the coup is only a minority and quickly being cleaned up the last thing you want to do is say is anything that the majority could view as a threat before the coup is actually over.
Good points.... we're in for a looooong night at Turkey.
godardc wrote: It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
What choice do they really have? Like him or not, he is the legitimate leader of the Turkish state ( and boy do I not like him). The world stage isn't going to actively support the overthrow of a democratically elected leader, even if he is a donkey-cave. It's just not going to happen.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
I find that the only people who ever end up with a coup trying to overthrow them are people that have the support of their citizens...
I don't remember a lot of countries defended Ianoukovytch during the illegal putsch at Kiev ...
Peregrine wrote: Or will declaring his intent to purge the military be seen as an attack on the military as a whole, and drive more people to the coup side out of loyalty to their comrades? It seems to me like the kind of thing you say when you don't have control of the situation, an attempt to scare people into obedience. If the coup is only a minority and quickly being cleaned up the last thing you want to do is say is anything that the majority could view as a threat before the coup is actually over.
Good points. The military personnel supporting the coup were able to fire up a lot of heavy assets (aircraft, tanks, etc.) which is no mean feat. It's not over 'til it's over I suppose!
What if the whole coup is faked? People are already speculating this was due to an economic crisis on it's way for Turkey and Erdogan will use this coup to blame for the crisis and allow him to push his agenda further.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hordini wrote: I wonder if after he purges the military, he'll declare a state of emergency and try something to maintain power like suspend elections and so on.
An attempted Turkish military coup appeared to crumble in the early hours of Saturday after crowds answered President Tayyip Erdogan's call to take to the streets to support him.
Erdogan, who had been holidaying on the coast when the coup was launched, flew into Istanbul before dawn on Saturday and was shown on TV appearing among a crowd of supporters outside the airport, which the coup plotters had failed to secure.
The uprising was an "act of treason", and those responsible would pay a heavy price, he later told reporters at a hastily arranged news conference. Arrests of officers were under way, and it would go higher up the ranks, culminating in the cleansing of the military.
Gunfire and explosions had rocked both the main city Istanbul and capital Ankara in a chaotic night after soldiers took up positions in both cities and ordered state television to read out a statement declaring they had taken power.
But by early Saturday, Reuters journalists saw around 30 pro-coup soldiers surrender their weapons after being surrounded by armed police in Istanbul's central Taksim square.
They were taken away in police vans as a fighter jet repeatedly screeched overhead at low altitude, causing a boom that shook surrounding buildings and shattered windows.
A successful overthrow of Erdogan, who has ruled Turkey since 2003, would have marked one of the biggest shifts in the Middle East in years, transforming one of the most important U.S. allies while war rages on its border. A failed coup attempt could still destabilize a pivotal country.
Before returning to Istanbul, Erdogan appeared in a video call to the studio of the Turkish sister channel of CNN, where an announcer held up a mobile phone to the camera to show him. He called on Turks to take to the streets to defend his government and said the coup plotters would pay a heavy price.
By the early hours of Saturday morning, lawmakers were still hiding in shelters inside the parliament building in Ankara, which had been fired on by tanks. Smoke rose up from nearby, Reuters witnesses said. An opposition MP told Reuters parliament was hit three times and that people had been wounded.
A Turkish military commander said fighter jets had shot down a helicopter used by the coup plotters over Ankara. State-run Anadolu news agency said 17 police were killed at special forces headquarters there.
As the night wore on, momentum turned against the coup plotters. Crowds defied orders to stay indoors, gathering at major squares in Istanbul and Ankara, waving flags and chanting.
"We have a prime minister, we have a chief of command, we're not going to leave this country to degenerates," shouted one man, as groups of government supporters climbed onto a tank near Istanbul's Ataturk airport.
Erdogan and other officials blamed loyalists of a U.S.-based cleric for the coup attempt; his movement denied any part in it.
U.S. SUPPORT
The United States declared its firm backing for Erdogan's government. Secretary of State John Kerry said he phoned the Turkish foreign minister and emphasized "absolute support for Turkey's democratically elected, civilian government and democratic institutions".
The coup began with warplanes and helicopters roaring over Ankara and troops moving in to seal off the bridges over the Bosphorus that link Europe and Asia in Istanbul.
Reuters reporters saw a helicopter open fire in Ankara. Anadolu said military helicopters had fired on the headquarters of the intelligence agency.
In the first hours of the coup attempt, airports were shut and access to internet social media sites was cut off.
Soldiers took control of TRT state television, which announced a countrywide curfew and martial law. An announcer read a statement on the orders of the military that accused the government of eroding the democratic and secular rule of law. The country would be run by a "peace council" that would ensure the safety of the population, the statement said.
Shortly afterwards, TRT went off the air. It resumed broadcasting in the early hours of Saturday.
Anadolu said the chief of Turkey's military staff was among people taken "hostage" in the capital Ankara, but Prime Minister Binali Yildirim later said he was back in control.
"NOT A TINPOT COUP"
Early in the evening the coup appeared strong. A senior EU source monitoring the situation said: "It looks like a relatively well orchestrated coup by a significant body of the military, not just a few colonels. They've got control of the airports and are expecting control over the TV station imminently. They control several strategic points in Istanbul.
"Given the scale of the operation, it is difficult to imagine they will stop short of prevailing."
One European diplomat was dining with the Turkish ambassador to a European capital when guests were interrupted by the pinging of urgent news on their mobile phones.
"This is clearly not some tinpot little coup. The Turkish ambassador was clearly shocked and is taking it very seriously," the diplomat told Reuters as the dinner party broke up. "However it looks in the morning, this will have massive implications for Turkey. This has not come out of nowhere."
Turkey, a NATO member with the second biggest military in the Western alliance, is one of the most important allies of the United States in the fight against Islamic State, which seized swathes of neighboring Iraq and Syria.
The Pentagon said there was no impact on operations against Islamic State from the U.S. air base at Incirlik in Turkey.
Turkey is also one of the main backers of opponents of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in that country's civil war, host to 2.7 million Syrian refugees and launchpad last year for the biggest influx of migrants to Europe since World War Two.
Celebratory gunfire erupted in Syria's capital Damascus after the army claimed to have toppled Erdogan. People took the streets to celebrate there and in other government-held cities.
Turkey has been at war with Kurdish separatists, and has suffered numerous bombing and shooting attacks this year, including an attack two weeks ago by Islamists at Istanbul's main airport that killed more than 40 people.
Turkish officials blamed the attempted coup on followers of Fethullah Gulen, an influential cleric in self-imposed exile in the United States who once supported Erdogan but became a nemesis. The pro-Gulen Alliance for Shared Values said it condemned any military intervention in domestic politics.
After serving as prime minister from 2003, Erdogan was elected president in 2014 with plans to alter the constitution to give the previously ceremonial presidency far greater executive powers.
Turkey has enjoyed an economic boom during his time in office and has dramatically expanded its influence across the region. But opponents say his rule has become increasingly authoritarian.
His AK Party, with roots in Islamism, has long had a strained relationship with the military and nationalists in a state that was founded on secularist principles after World War One. The military has a history of mounting coups to defend secularism, but has not seized power directly since 1980.
Prime Minister Yildirim said a group within Turkey's military had attempted to overthrow the government and security forces have been called in to "do what is necessary".
"Some people illegally undertook an illegal action outside of the chain of command," Yildirim said in comments broadcast by private channel NTV.
"The government elected by the people remains in charge. This government will only go when the people say so."
(Reporting by Humeyra Pamuk, Ayla Jean Yackley, Nick Tattersall, David Dolan, Akin Aytekin, Tulay Karadeniz, Can Sezer, Gulsen Solaker, Ece Toksabay, Murad Sezer, Ercan Gurses, Nevzat Devranoglu, Dasha Afanasieva, Birsen Altayli and Orhan Coskun; Writing by Peter Graff; Editing by Catherine Evans and Mary Milliken)
I have to wonder, wouldn't it be easier for the U.S. to have the military at the helm, if only for a while?
Being staged would explain the general incompetence, access to jets and heavy armour from what is described as a "minority" in the military, and Erdogan waltzing back in to Istanbul like some sort of chosen man of the Gods to retake control.
Early days yet, though, and I don't want to light the fires of conspiracy for the moment.
godardc wrote: It is kinda sad that the whole world sided with erdogan.
What choice do they really have? Like him or not, he is the legitimate leader of the Turkish state ( and boy do I not like him). The world stage isn't going to actively support the overthrow of a democratically elected leader, even if he is a donkey-cave. It's just not going to happen.
What is even more sad is the people of turkey are supporting him too...
I find that the only people who ever end up with a coup trying to overthrow them are people that have the support of their citizens...
I don't remember a lot of countries defended Ianoukovytch during the illegal putsch at Kiev ...
Presumably because Ukraine didn't go from 0 to coup in a day. There's also the vote of no confidence that May or may not have been legal, depending on who you ask, whereas the military mobilising armour and air support and suddenly seizing power unambiguously is illegal.
Apparently 104 plotters have been killed. But I'm sure they were all unavoidable and everyone else accused will get a fair hearing and their humans rights respected during any investigation.
Hopefully never...the involvement of the local imams and the order to all believers to aid Erdogan in the name of Allah and the Quran is already a warning sign for a possibly too large influence of religion in government. A foreign (western) attacker would probably ramp up the religious-nationalistic propaganda to 11.
Turkey is one of those predominantly Muslim countries with a somewhat stable middle class, didn't we discuss this in the Nice thread? Let's try and not ruin another ME middle class by foreign military involvement, in my opinion.
welt.de is reporting the following: During a speech of Erdogan, the crowd in front of him was shouting: "Here is the commander, here is the army! Say it, and we kill! Say it and we die! Allahu akbar"
...I'm calling this a not-positive development. Turkey as a secular state, please, yes, but less fanatical, possibly religious Führer-like fanaticism.
With all that we know now, how many of you would say that this is a false flag operation instigated by Erdogan in order to consolidate his power and bump off his rivals?
It probably isn't a false flag, but Erdogan will use this as an opportunity to round up as much opposition as he can and remove them from power or imprison them, while introducing more authoritarian laws.
Future War Cultist wrote: With all that we know now, how many of you would say that this is a false flag operation instigated by Erdogan in order to consolidate his power and bump off his rivals?
Having helicopters fire onto the capital, dropping bombs on governmental buildings...I don't know, this false flag would have to be constructed SO carefully that EVERYBODY involved, including the thousands of soldiers on lower ranks involved in getting an operation like this done, keeps their mouth shut about the "real" reasons...it seems too elaborate to pull off, too many people involved that you can't all screen thoroughly enough to make sure they don't rat out on a scheme of this magnitude.
On the other hand, it does seem a bit weird that so many previous coups in Turkey have been successful, and now this one isn't, suddendly. A shift in the internal politics of the military, perhaps?
Spiegel.de just reported that Erdogan is getting rid of three thousand judges immediately. He IS using this to clean house and get rid of his opposition. This plot has indeed achieved the exact opposite of what it seemingly wanted to achieve.
You wouldn't need everyone to be in on it. You could have a few spies and agent provocateurs that encouraged others to start a coup, which they then undermined so that it collapsed. That way most people involved were taking part in a genuine coup and exposed themselves as anti-government, but which had no chance of succeeding. There's no way the thousands involved in this were not doing so in the belief of making a genuine attempt.
This will give a paranoid leader every bit of ammunition he has ever wanted to fight the opposition..
Turkey will become more authoritariona and totalitarian as a result from this.
At least judging from Erdogans statements.
And correct me if I'm wrong here.
But hasn't Erdogan reinstated the death penalty?
And this country wants to join the EU.
I sincerely hope the European Parliament looks at that country and sees it for what it is..
A quasi dictatorship.
When Janukovitch got sacked there were little protests from western leaders. And he was also "democratically elected".
So the support of Erdogan from the White House seems a bit odd all things considered..
I guess some elected leaders are more equal than others in this case..
Personally I'm glad my country is not a member of the EU now. I would not want Turkey to have ANY influence on our Politics at all.
But alas they do.
Erdogan currently holds the EU "hostage" by threatening to flood the continent with unchecked refugees.
This is extortion tactics from Erdogans side. And it goes a long way in showing what kind of leader he really is..
And the fact that a once Secular state has become more religious despite the fething constitution is also worrying..
Atatürk must be rotating at 12000 RPM in his grave.
Erdogan is undermining the foundations of the modern Turkish state by giving the religious nutjobs more power..
Anyone who kowtows to an old ghost story does not deserve any government post or any power at all.
I fear for Europe's future now.
I thought it strange that a coup was launched without any seeming plan to dispose of Erdogan. It would indicate either one of three things
1. Erdogan deliberately stirred it up.
2. The coup leaders assumed infinitely more military support than they actually had (not necessarily contradictory to Number 1).
3. Something occurred to pressure them into moving before they were ready.
Ketara wrote: I thought it strange that a coup was launched without any seeming plan to dispose of Erdogan. It would indicate either one of three things
1. Erdogan deliberately stirred it up.
2. The coup leaders assumed infinitely more military support than they actually had (not necessarily contradictory to Number 1).
3. Something occurred to pressure them into moving before they were ready.
Yes, it was stupid for them to initiate it if they couldn't neutralize Erdogan. First step of a successful coup d'etat -- cut off the head of the snake.
The Coup failed. and it came before the new constitution draft referrendum day of 7th August. the new constitution that officially established the Aristocracy in Thailand.
Another reasons these Turk renegade troops failed is that they failed to establish a supportive popular fronts there.
Ketara wrote: I thought it strange that a coup was launched without any seeming plan to dispose of Erdogan. It would indicate either one of three things
1. Erdogan deliberately stirred it up.
2. The coup leaders assumed infinitely more military support than they actually had (not necessarily contradictory to Number 1).
3. Something occurred to pressure them into moving before they were ready.
I've briefly heard it's #3, that the coup was known and was about to be prosecuted so the people planning it panicked
This was going to end badly no matter the outcome. It would have been a sad day for democracy if the military had taken control, but it is an equally sad day for democracy that Erdogan remains in power. Erdogan may have been elected, but being elected does unfortenately not neccessarily make you a democratic leader. Hitler probably being the saddest example of this.
Erdogan is a dictator of the purest sort, and this failed coup will only serve to further his autocratic goals. It also stinks heavily of conspiracy. It reminds me a lot of the appartment bombings in Russia.
It's a depressing situation. I would hope though that whatever he does next at least kills any chance of Turkey joining the EU. And seriously, I think now we should be kicking Turkey out of NATO.
Whilst browsing through the comments section on this story in the Guardian newspaper, I came across this interesting comment.
This could be a true comment, or it could be an opportunity to take advantage of that 2 for 1 offer on tinfoil hats at your local store.
Anyway, please remember, I'm just the messenger
original swear words edited so as not to annoy the mods.
Try this for size …
Watching events unfold on CNN Türk, it all looked very stagey to us. Of course the bloodshed is atrocious but I figure it's just more of the same to add to the list of Erdoğan's mendacious gak–stirring this past year.
For that matter, why would any military strategist choose rush hour on a Friday evening to take control of a country? In 1980 the army shut everything down in the wee hours of the morning and Turkey woke up to thousands of soldiers lining the streets of her major cities, every political figure of any significance under arrest and absolutely no one daring go on the streets because the military meant business.
Last night's fiasco with a handful of tanks and trucks here and there for show was all about how the government held it together with a handful of FaceTime accounts (interesting how that was still online when Facebook and Twitter were effectively shut down) and the support of a shower of have–a–go yobs winging it on the myth of social media.
The folk defending Gezi Parkı a couple of summers back were a real movement of people from all backgrounds whereas Erdoğan's supporters were so laid back and obviously enjoying themselves as they trooped into the airport last night the only thing missing was their sombreros and wheelie luggage.
The only words of sense came from deputy prime minister Tuğrol Türkeş who pointed the fact there were no "faces" to this coup, no senior military figures making a statement, before declining to "speculate" further.
Of course the message to America is "hand over Fethullah Gülen now you see how much trouble he's causing us and let's forget about the fact that Tazyik Erdoğan was only yesterday morning fending off laughter as he stooped to have an eminent judge lie to the public about the non–existent diploma qualifying him for the office of president along with the rest of his bullgak".
After all who needs a diploma when he's Bill Pullman or Harrison Ford or whoever plays the American President flying around in Air Force One in all them disaster movies anyway? Right?
We went from shock at 10pm GMT to scepticism at midnight and by the time the State broadcaster, TRT, was "liberated" from the clutches of a handful of soldiers in what looked like they were celebrating an impromptu Eurovision win … outright laughter.
And this morning we are treated to this gem where CNN journalists finally get their five minutes of action after pushing bull all night.
I've seen heavier fighting at Debenham's* on a sale day.
* for non-UK dakka members, Debenhams is a chain of shops.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tactical_Spam wrote: Does anyone know if the ramifications of NATO take effect if Turkey has a civil war?
Years ago, we had a fight between Greece and Turkey (both NATO members) over Cyprus, and the other NATO members either stayed neutral, or sent Henry Kissinger in to secure a 'peace deal.'
Watching the way the tanks were maneuvering and seeing the actions of some of the other rebels, I was very much under the impression they did not want to be responsible for a lot of civilian bloodshed.
I think that may have hampered them, but was very much a 'good thing'. It could have been a lot worse.
Ketara wrote: I thought it strange that a coup was launched without any seeming plan to dispose of Erdogan. It would indicate either one of three things
1. Erdogan deliberately stirred it up.
2. The coup leaders assumed infinitely more military support than they actually had (not necessarily contradictory to Number 1).
3. Something occurred to pressure them into moving before they were ready.
I've briefly heard it's #3, that the coup was known and was about to be prosecuted so the people planning it panicked
There's another option to #3 as well. If they knew they had been found out, they could have sacrificed some of the pawns and make it look like the true coup. Set it up to fail (i.e. start it in rush hour) and then go back into hiding and planning. The government thinks they have controlled it and they wait for a more opportune to try again.
However it does look like Turkey will now head the same way as Egypt; basically if you speak out expect to disappear.
So, President Obama, do you hand over this cleric as Erdogan is asking? If so, are you sending an innocent man to prison or death just because Erdogan wants all his enemies eliminated? Or are you sending an agitator to his rightful punishment? Given you were caught completely off guard by this failed coup attempt, how will you ever know?
Things like this are your legacy, Mr. President. Under your watch, the world has become a much more dangerous place.
Orks. That way he can boast about having the coolest models while crying victim because 40k hates his army and gives them no love. Oh, wait. That's me with my Bretonnians. Nevermind.
Breotan wrote: So, President Obama, do you hand over this cleric as Erdogan is asking? If so, are you sending an innocent man to prison or death just because Erdogan wants all his enemies eliminated? Or are you sending an agitator to his rightful punishment? Given you were caught completely off guard by this failed coup attempt, how will you ever know?
Things like this are your legacy, Mr. President. Under your watch, the world has become a much more dangerous place.
I can guarantee without uncertainty that he'll do the wrong thing. Why would he break the habit of a lifetime?
CptJake wrote: Watching the way the tanks were maneuvering and seeing the actions of some of the other rebels, I was very much under the impression they did not want to be responsible for a lot of civilian bloodshed.
I think that may have hampered them, but was very much a 'good thing'. It could have been a lot worse.
Some of the soldiers arrested have been saying that they thought they were undertaking drill exercises.
CptJake wrote: Watching the way the tanks were maneuvering and seeing the actions of some of the other rebels, I was very much under the impression they did not want to be responsible for a lot of civilian bloodshed.
I think that may have hampered them, but was very much a 'good thing'. It could have been a lot worse.
Some of the soldiers arrested have been saying that they thought they were undertaking drill exercises.
Some soldiers have been lynched apparently.
A good day for Erdogan.
There have been public beheadings in the streets already. I wonder why people were opposed to giving Turkish civilians VISA free travel.
CptJake wrote: Watching the way the tanks were maneuvering and seeing the actions of some of the other rebels, I was very much under the impression they did not want to be responsible for a lot of civilian bloodshed.
I think that may have hampered them, but was very much a 'good thing'. It could have been a lot worse.
Some of the soldiers arrested have been saying that they thought they were undertaking drill exercises.
Some soldiers have been lynched apparently.
A good day for Erdogan.
There have been public beheadings in the streets already. I wonder why people were opposed to giving Turkish civilians VISA free travel.
Breotan wrote: So, President Obama, do you hand over this cleric as Erdogan is asking? If so, are you sending an innocent man to prison or death just because Erdogan wants all his enemies eliminated? Or are you sending an agitator to his rightful punishment? Given you were caught completely off guard by this failed coup attempt, how will you ever know?
Things like this are your legacy, Mr. President. Under your watch, the world has become a much more dangerous place.
The US has already said they would not extradite this bloke without evidence.
Breotan wrote: So, President Obama, do you hand over this cleric as Erdogan is asking? If so, are you sending an innocent man to prison or death just because Erdogan wants all his enemies eliminated? Or are you sending an agitator to his rightful punishment? Given you were caught completely off guard by this failed coup attempt, how will you ever know?
Things like this are your legacy, Mr. President. Under your watch, the world has become a much more dangerous place.
The US has already said they would not extradite this bloke without evidence.
Your reply is a little late. When I posted that the only statement was Kerry saying the US would consider Erdogan's request. The administration's "concerns" about Erdogan's crackdown were made after I posted. Even then, President Obama hasn't really used any leverage to reign in Erdogan, has he? Turkey moves from secular to fundamentalist and Obama sits on the sidelines.
However the question remains, what will the President do? Will he hand over a (probably) innocent man to appease a wannabe dictator? Or will he enforce the rule of law and risk Erdogan fomenting anti-western sentiment in Turkey - moving the country even more towards fundamentalism?
I'd still like to know if the false flag theory has any credible evidence to support it. People are starting to double down on it and evidence to the contrary has been lacking.
Breotan wrote: . Even then, President Obama hasn't really used any leverage to reign in Erdogan, has he? Turkey moves from secular to fundamentalist and Obama sits on the sidelines.
It's almost as if Turkey is a sovereign NATO country and Erdogan is the democratically elected leader of said country.
Don't let facts get in the way of your dislike for Obama though.
Dreadwinter wrote: So wait, Obama is supposed to reign in the president of a completely different country now? Are we doing that Team America World Police thing again?
Well yes. Haven't you heard. If America acts we are bad. If America doesn't act we are bad. Go MERICA
Because we see the world with America not using its influence and you guys are apparently okay with that? Wow. Feth human rights and all that stuff, right? Go, Team Erdogan!!!!
Breotan wrote: So, President Obama, do you hand over this cleric as Erdogan is asking? If so, are you sending an innocent man to prison or death just because Erdogan wants all his enemies eliminated? Or are you sending an agitator to his rightful punishment? Given you were caught completely off guard by this failed coup attempt, how will you ever know?
Things like this are your legacy, Mr. President. Under your watch, the world has become a much more dangerous place.
The US has already said they would not extradite this bloke without evidence.
Your reply is a little late. When I posted that the only statement was Kerry saying the US would consider Erdogan's request. The administration's "concerns" about Erdogan's crackdown were made after I posted. Even then, President Obama hasn't really used any leverage to reign in Erdogan, has he? Turkey moves from secular to fundamentalist and Obama sits on the sidelines.
However the question remains, what will the President do? Will he hand over a (probably) innocent man to appease a wannabe dictator? Or will he enforce the rule of law and risk Erdogan fomenting anti-western sentiment in Turkey - moving the country even more towards fundamentalism?
I'd still like to know if the false flag theory has any credible evidence to support it. People are starting to double down on it and evidence to the contrary has been lacking.
Breotan wrote: So, President Obama, do you hand over this cleric as Erdogan is asking? If so, are you sending an innocent man to prison or death just because Erdogan wants all his enemies eliminated? Or are you sending an agitator to his rightful punishment? Given you were caught completely off guard by this failed coup attempt, how will you ever know?
Things like this are your legacy, Mr. President. Under your watch, the world has become a much more dangerous place.
The US has already said they would not extradite this bloke without evidence.
Your reply is a little late. When I posted that the only statement was Kerry saying the US would consider Erdogan's request. The administration's "concerns" about Erdogan's crackdown were made after I posted. Even then, President Obama hasn't really used any leverage to reign in Erdogan, has he? Turkey moves from secular to fundamentalist and Obama sits on the sidelines.
However the question remains, what will the President do? Will he hand over a (probably) innocent man to appease a wannabe dictator? Or will he enforce the rule of law and risk Erdogan fomenting anti-western sentiment in Turkey - moving the country even more towards fundamentalism?
I'd still like to know if the false flag theory has any credible evidence to support it. People are starting to double down on it and evidence to the contrary has been lacking.
False flag or not you don't just kick 2,5K judges (judges? wtf were 2,5K judges doing in a coup) overnight.
Evidently Erdogan had the mechanisms in place to weed out opponents at the slightest excuse.
Breotan wrote: Because we see the world with America not using its influence and you guys are apparently okay with that? Wow. Feth human rights and all that stuff, right? Go, Team Erdogan!!!!
Am I doing it right?
What exactly is Obama supposed to do here? I think before you criticize him for doing nothing you need to suggest a viable plan for getting involved in the situation, and it had better be a plan that acknowledges past screwups in picking a side in the middle east.
Dreadwinter wrote: So wait, Obama is supposed to reign in the president of a completely different country now? Are we doing that Team America World Police thing again?
Iron_Captain wrote: This was going to end badly no matter the outcome. It would have been a sad day for democracy if the military had taken control, but it is an equally sad day for democracy that Erdogan remains in power. Erdogan may have been elected, but being elected does unfortenately not neccessarily make you a democratic leader. Hitler probably being the saddest example of this.
Erdogan is a dictator of the purest sort, and this failed coup will only serve to further his autocratic goals. It also stinks heavily of conspiracy. It reminds me a lot of the appartment bombings in Russia.
Erdogan being a villain is not a big deal if he's being voted out. Military coup is utterly evil no matter what and i am all against it.
But it is good that some two thousands corrupt jugdes lost their job and get caught. but should the persecutions extended to the public supporters of these renegades?
Iron_Captain wrote: This was going to end badly no matter the outcome. It would have been a sad day for democracy if the military had taken control, but it is an equally sad day for democracy that Erdogan remains in power. Erdogan may have been elected, but being elected does unfortenately not neccessarily make you a democratic leader. Hitler probably being the saddest example of this.
Erdogan is a dictator of the purest sort, and this failed coup will only serve to further his autocratic goals. It also stinks heavily of conspiracy. It reminds me a lot of the appartment bombings in Russia.
Erdogan being a villain is not a big deal if he's being voted out. Military coup is utterly evil no matter what and i am all against it.
But it is good that some two thousands corrupt jugdes lost their job and get caught. but should the persecutions extended to the public supporters of these renegades?
So because an increasingly authoritarian and dictatorial leader tells that 6000+ people are corrupt, you believe him ?
At the height of the attempt to overthrow Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the rebel pilots of two F-16 fighter jets had Erdogan's plane in their sights. And yet he was able to fly on.
The Turkish leader was returning to Istanbul from a holiday near the coastal resort of Marmaris after a faction in the military launched the coup attempt on Friday night, sealing off a bridge across the Bosphorus, trying to capture Istanbul's main airport and sending tanks to parliament in Ankara.
"At least two F-16s harassed Erdogan's plane while it was in the air and en route to Istanbul. They locked their radars on his plane and on two other F-16s protecting him," a former military officer with knowledge of the events told Reuters. "Why they didn't fire is a mystery."
A successful overthrow of Erdogan, who has ruled the country of about 80 million people since 2003, could have sent Turkey spiraling into conflict and marked another seismic shift in the Middle East, five years after the Arab Spring uprisings erupted and plunged its southern neighbor Syria into civil war.
A senior Turkish official confirmed to Reuters that Erdogan's business jet had been harassed while flying from the airport that serves Marmaris by two F-16s commandeered by the coup plotters but that he had managed to reach Istanbul safely.
A second senior official also said the presidential jet had been "in trouble in the air" but gave no details.
Flight tracker websites showed a Gulfstream IV aircraft, a type of business jet owned by the Turkish government, take off from Dalaman airport, which is about an hour and a quarter's drive from Marmaris, on Friday night.
It later circled in what appeared to be a holding pattern just south of Istanbul, around the time when a Reuters witness in the airport was still hearing bursts of gunfire, before finally coming in to land.
But the attempt crumbled as forces loyal to Erdogan pushed the rebels back and as the Turkish leader, at one point appearing on broadcaster CNN Turk in a video call from a mobile phone, urged people to take to the streets to support him.
A former air force commander was among those being interrogated Monday amid suspicions he was the coup's ringleader.
When you have a coup... you bring down the leader.
At the height of the attempt to overthrow Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the rebel pilots of two F-16 fighter jets had Erdogan's plane in their sights. And yet he was able to fly on.
The Turkish leader was returning to Istanbul from a holiday near the coastal resort of Marmaris after a faction in the military launched the coup attempt on Friday night, sealing off a bridge across the Bosphorus, trying to capture Istanbul's main airport and sending tanks to parliament in Ankara.
"At least two F-16s harassed Erdogan's plane while it was in the air and en route to Istanbul. They locked their radars on his plane and on two other F-16s protecting him," a former military officer with knowledge of the events told Reuters. "Why they didn't fire is a mystery."
A successful overthrow of Erdogan, who has ruled the country of about 80 million people since 2003, could have sent Turkey spiraling into conflict and marked another seismic shift in the Middle East, five years after the Arab Spring uprisings erupted and plunged its southern neighbor Syria into civil war.
A senior Turkish official confirmed to Reuters that Erdogan's business jet had been harassed while flying from the airport that serves Marmaris by two F-16s commandeered by the coup plotters but that he had managed to reach Istanbul safely.
A second senior official also said the presidential jet had been "in trouble in the air" but gave no details.
Flight tracker websites showed a Gulfstream IV aircraft, a type of business jet owned by the Turkish government, take off from Dalaman airport, which is about an hour and a quarter's drive from Marmaris, on Friday night.
It later circled in what appeared to be a holding pattern just south of Istanbul, around the time when a Reuters witness in the airport was still hearing bursts of gunfire, before finally coming in to land.
But the attempt crumbled as forces loyal to Erdogan pushed the rebels back and as the Turkish leader, at one point appearing on broadcaster CNN Turk in a video call from a mobile phone, urged people to take to the streets to support him.
A former air force commander was among those being interrogated Monday amid suspicions he was the coup's ringleader.
When you have a coup... you bring down the leader.
That's...surprising, if true. Once you put your proverbial dick on the table and attempt a coup, you go balls in, not pull out lamely.
6000 in the military and judiciary arrested, 8000 police suspended. It's not credible, there should be international observers there to check that the investigation is above board.
I am not entirely sure a lot of the pictures being posted are accurate. There have already been people trying to pass off pictures from a decade ago as what is happening right now in Turkey. I honestly hope none of this stuff is happening, but it might be. If it is happening, I am not sure how Nato is going to react and even more concerning, how Putin is going to react.
So if your military coup fails in Turkey, deos that mean it all went turducken??? Get it turducken!!! Laugh, or like your dad I'll keep telling the joke in front of your friends. YOU KNOW I WILL.
Frazzled wrote: So if your military coup fails in Turkey, deos that mean it all went turducken??? Get it turducken!!! Laugh, or like your dad I'll keep telling the joke in front of your friends. YOU KNOW I WILL.
wut? Frazz, turduckens are awesome, failed coup d'etats are full of fail, turduckens are full of awesome tasty bird meat.
Do you ever wonder what the major Middle Eastern Powers are doing to sort out their own back yard?
I mean, look at Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Isreal, Egypt do they have any interest in Turkey? Do they have any interest in peace?
I understand the whole "Iraq war destabilised the region" argument but is there any effort being displayed by anyone to help Turkey with its Syrian refugees and Radical Islamic President or does all the power still lie with the the Radical states so more Secular states like Egypt can't really get involved without dangerous repercussions?
theCrowe wrote: Do you ever wonder what the major Middle Eastern Powers are doing to sort out their own back yard?
I mean, look at Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Isreal, Egypt do they have any interest in Turkey? Do they have any interest in peace?
I understand the whole "Iraq war destabilised the region" argument but is there any effort being displayed by anyone to help Turkey with its Syrian refugees and Radical Islamic President or does all the power still lie with the the Radical states so more Secular states like Egypt can't really get involved without dangerous repercussions?
Turkey is a substantial power. If I were Turkey, that last thing I would want is Iran or the Gulf State's help. Iran (Persia) is a historic enemy of Turkey/Ottoman Empire.
Pistols at Dawn wrote: If nothing else, then the past weekends excitement has 100% ended Turkeys chances of joining the EU in the next....ooohhh 25 years?
Erdogan doesn't care. He has no interest in joining the EU anymore; he's out to carve a Turkish power bloc out of the Middle East.
Ketara wrote: This is genuinely beginning to stink of 'orchestrated coup'.
I'm not convinced by that argument, but I have no doubt that Erdogan is milking the crisis for all its worth. It's more than likely he's had these hit lists drawn up for months, and was just waiting for the right moment to spring them...
Iron_Captain wrote: This was going to end badly no matter the outcome. It would have been a sad day for democracy if the military had taken control, but it is an equally sad day for democracy that Erdogan remains in power. Erdogan may have been elected, but being elected does unfortenately not neccessarily make you a democratic leader. Hitler probably being the saddest example of this.
Erdogan is a dictator of the purest sort, and this failed coup will only serve to further his autocratic goals. It also stinks heavily of conspiracy. It reminds me a lot of the appartment bombings in Russia.
Erdogan being a villain is not a big deal if he's being voted out. Military coup is utterly evil no matter what and i am all against it.
But it is good that some two thousands corrupt jugdes lost their job and get caught. but should the persecutions extended to the public supporters of these renegades?
So because an increasingly authoritarian and dictatorial leader tells that 6000+ people are corrupt, you believe him ?
No but this still does NOT condon the Coup d'Etat. It shouldn't be condon by any reasons.
Ketara wrote: This is genuinely beginning to stink of 'orchestrated coup'.
I'm not convinced by that argument, but I have no doubt that Erdogan is milking the crisis for all its worth. It's more than likely he's had these hit lists drawn up for months, and was just waiting for the right moment to spring them...
He's had the lists drawn up for a while, if the papers today are accurate. He's just been waiting for an excuse.
I don't think the chief conspirators were any less, well...conspiratorial, but I have a strong suspicion that Erdogan's known about them for a while, and played them like a fiddle (probably by getting military personnel loyal to him to play along and make them think they had a better chance than they did). Everything was too badly placed for the coup attempt (in terms of assets and timing), and too well placed for him (from military personnel, to his location, to the speed and form of his response) for this to have been unforeseen and randomised.
It might walk like a duck, quack like a duck, and have a big label saying 'I am a duck', but if it looks nothing like a duck, you get suspicious.
Iron_Captain wrote: This was going to end badly no matter the outcome. It would have been a sad day for democracy if the military had taken control, but it is an equally sad day for democracy that Erdogan remains in power. Erdogan may have been elected, but being elected does unfortenately not neccessarily make you a democratic leader. Hitler probably being the saddest example of this.
Erdogan is a dictator of the purest sort, and this failed coup will only serve to further his autocratic goals. It also stinks heavily of conspiracy. It reminds me a lot of the appartment bombings in Russia.
Erdogan being a villain is not a big deal if he's being voted out. Military coup is utterly evil no matter what and i am all against it.
But it is good that some two thousands corrupt jugdes lost their job and get caught. but should the persecutions extended to the public supporters of these renegades?
So because an increasingly authoritarian and dictatorial leader tells that 6000+ people are corrupt, you believe him ?
No but this still does NOT condon the Coup d'Etat. It shouldn't be condon by any reasons.
Two Wrongs don't make one Right.
Right, and when the guy has become a literal dictator, and begins fething with the Constitution for his own benefit or suspends it altogether, what then? A black and white absolutist perspective just does not work here.
I hate to Godwin the thread, but if this guy wants to be a 21st century Fuhrer? Would you have agreed with a Coup against Hitler prior to 1933?
Sooner or later there comes a point of no return, at which point its too late to stop a dictator's rise to power. This failed "coup" might be Turkey's point of no return.
Lone Cat's from a country where the military has overthrown the government (in the name of their dietified King usually) 12 times in the past 80 years... To put their comments into perspective.
Wyrmalla wrote: Lone Cat's from a country where the military has overthrown the government (in the name of their dietified King usually) 12 times in the past 80 years... To put their comments into perspective.
Oh, OK. Fair enough.
Still, I don't think this Coup in Turkey is anywhere near as morally black and white as he puts it. We all know what Erdogan is, and what he wants to turn Turkey into. We all know what he's doing to anyone and everyone that opposes him. What if a Coup is the only way to stop a Dictator taking power?
Wyrmalla wrote: Lone Cat's from a country where the military has overthrown the government (in the name of their dietified King usually) 12 times in the past 80 years... To put their comments into perspective.
That's right. This is why i'm so furious of any comments that condons the Coup in Turkey.
And none of these Coups lead to my national progress. Especially the last two ones did ruin my homeland considerably. Once a country that has a dream to be the next (United States of) America, is now nothing short of (Latin) america.
the 1997 Constitutions did provide an 'edible democracy' to much of the national folks who... before then, were disenfranchised. Originally there were fears that the majority of Thai citizenry --who were considered 'poorly educated' may be easily bought off by corrupt politicians (some are indeed corrupts and are gangsters). the 9 year tenure did prove otherwise.. the folks did learn to be responsive to their chosen candidates. they did experience that their representatives DID speak for them and indeed granted them more access to national infrastructures and services than before. 9 years that came with the Industrializations and IT revolutions did create a considerable numbers of political active citizens.. the previously 'silenced' voices of 'enlightenment' became loud once again in recent years because most of the nations feel the changes that uninterrupted democracy granted to. (And the military juntas failed to offer any!) so any offers given by the Aristocrats (a groups of self proclaimed 'superior people' who believes themself alturistic to its nations and fellow citizens don't) are considered lies.
And this is why I oppose the Turkish Coup against Erdogan. (as well as the 19th September 2006 Coup, and the 22nd May 2014 ones that propelled the villainous NCPO)
Wyrmalla wrote: Lone Cat's from a country where the military has overthrown the government (in the name of their dietified King usually) 12 times in the past 80 years... To put their comments into perspective.
That's right. This is why i'm so furious of any comments that condons the Coup in Turkey.
I'm not condoning it. I'm refusing to condemn it out of hand like you are.
Are you really suggesting Erdogan is a democrat? He's a wannabe Bashar Al Assad or Saddam Hussain.
Even if Erdogan is not. it is what Turkish citizens as a whole to judge in the next election, not a handful of these military men to do it. Do you expect that these wanna-be Military Juntas will keep a promise? do you expect that they will not suffer a 'Power Corrupts' syndrome? Who knows if the Coups became a success, will the Junta extorts fellow Turkish of their 'deeds'?
Lone Cat wrote: Even if Erdogan is not. it is what Turkish citizens as a whole to judge in the next election, not a handful of these military men to do it. Do you expect that these wanna-be Military Juntas will keep a promise? do you expect that they will not suffer a 'Power Corrupts' syndrome? Who knows if the Coups became a success, will the Junta extorts fellow Turkish of their 'deeds'?
And what makes you think it'll be a fair election? The guy has suspended and/or arrested thousands of soldiers, police, judges and teachers.
Lone Cat wrote: Even if Erdogan is not. it is what Turkish citizens as a whole to judge in the next election, not a handful of these military men to do it. Do you expect that these wanna-be Military Juntas will keep a promise? do you expect that they will not suffer a 'Power Corrupts' syndrome? Who knows if the Coups became a success, will the Junta extorts fellow Turkish of their 'deeds'?
And what makes you think it'll be a fair election? The guy has suspended and/or arrested thousands of soldiers, police, judges and teachers.
He must mean like the last election for Prime Minister, where there was only one name on the ballot.
Lone Cat wrote: Even if Erdogan is not. it is what Turkish citizens as a whole to judge in the next election, not a handful of these military men to do it. Do you expect that these wanna-be Military Juntas will keep a promise? do you expect that they will not suffer a 'Power Corrupts' syndrome? Who knows if the Coups became a success, will the Junta extorts fellow Turkish of their 'deeds'?
And what makes you think it'll be a fair election? The guy has suspended and/or arrested thousands of soldiers, police, judges and teachers.
He must mean like the last election for Prime Minister, where there was only one name on the ballot.
I take it from your resorting to What-about-ism that you have no valid arguments?
Anyway, we do not elect our Prime Ministers and never have.
Lone Cat wrote: Even if Erdogan is not. it is what Turkish citizens as a whole to judge in the next election, not a handful of these military men to do it. Do you expect that these wanna-be Military Juntas will keep a promise? do you expect that they will not suffer a 'Power Corrupts' syndrome? Who knows if the Coups became a success, will the Junta extorts fellow Turkish of their 'deeds'?
And what makes you think it'll be a fair election? The guy has suspended and/or arrested thousands of soldiers, police, judges and teachers.
He must mean like the last election for Prime Minister, where there was only one name on the ballot.
I take it from your resorting to What-about-ism that you have no valid arguments?
Anyway, we do not elect our Prime Ministers and never have.
It was the only mental example I had about Turkey and its totally fair elections. At the party's last election for a new leader, there was only one name on the list. And that man was also a total tool who belongs to a single man.
welshhoppo wrote: It was the only mental example I had about Turkey and its totally fair elections. At the party's last election for a new leader, there was only one name on the list. And that man was also a total tool who belongs to a single man.
Heh. Thought you were talking about the British Prime Minister.
Sorry about the confusion. But at least our conservative leader started out with more than one person on the ballot. Shame most of them dropped out and ended up getting cabinet jobs :p
Basically the Turkish post-pogrom Education ministry has recalled all Turkish researchers and professors abroad and forbid them from leaving the country unless their work is "absolutely necessary".
They're also asking chancellors to report on any possible pro-coup activity for teaching and administration staff. The Council expects a report from each chancellor no later than Aug 5th.
Well there goes that vacation to Turkey when I retire. I had wanted to see the ruins of Troy and the Hagia Sophia. Oh well. More time to eat Italian food.
Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.
kronk wrote: Is he going "Full Islamic State"? Getting rid of professors, judges, and other speedbumps that would oppose him and/or speak out against him?
Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.
Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: Well there goes that vacation to Turkey when I retire. I had wanted to see the ruins of Troy and the Hagia Sophia. Oh well.
More time to eat Italian food.
Or come to Scotland. Get some proper booze as opposed to that Bourbon rubbish you've been drinking for years
Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.
Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.
Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.
Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.
Not hiding it now....
El Presidente for life has risen.
On the plus side, I suppose Turkey's EU application is on indefinite hold for say, a 1000 years or something...
Ketara wrote: This is genuinely beginning to stink of 'orchestrated coup'.
I'm not convinced by that argument, but I have no doubt that Erdogan is milking the crisis for all its worth. It's more than likely he's had these hit lists drawn up for months, and was just waiting for the right moment to spring them...
He's had the lists drawn up for a while, if the papers today are accurate. He's just been waiting for an excuse.
I don't think the chief conspirators were any less, well...conspiratorial, but I have a strong suspicion that Erdogan's known about them for a while, and played them like a fiddle (probably by getting military personnel loyal to him to play along and make them think they had a better chance than they did). Everything was too badly placed for the coup attempt (in terms of assets and timing), and too well placed for him (from military personnel, to his location, to the speed and form of his response) for this to have been unforeseen and randomised.
It might walk like a duck, quack like a duck, and have a big label saying 'I am a duck', but if it looks nothing like a duck, you get suspicious.
The evidence I have for it not being a coup, is very unscientific and largely anecdotal, but it goes like this:
There are people I know who buy into conspiracy theories, the usual stuff about the CIA ruling the world etc etc
Anyway, they're split right down the middle on this. If they're split, and this is the first time this has happened in years, then it wasn't planned by Erdogan
Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.
Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.
Not hiding it now....
El Presidente for life has risen.
On the plus side, I suppose Turkey's EU application is on indefinite hold for say, a 1000 years or something...
Maybe when the military guide it back to a seculer post otterman empire path ... just maybe they would become EU.
djones520 wrote: On the plus side, he if keeps this up, I wouldn't be surprised to see a real coup take place.
I think the coup opportunity is gone, and would give us a civil war instead, which is the last thing we need right now. Even somebody like me living in the middle of nowhere in Scotland would notice and be affected by a civil war in Turkey...
Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.
Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.
Not hiding it now....
El Presidente for life has risen.
On the plus side, I suppose Turkey's EU application is on indefinite hold for say, a 1000 years or something...
Democracy is not the natural state of human government.
Regardless of how and why the coup came about, Erdogan obviously is using it as an excuse to consolidate semi-dictatorial control of the country.
It's a question that goes beyond this thread, but we in the West need to ask why countries like Turkey are rejecting democracy and liberal values.
If we can't get modern Turkey, with its modern secular foundation, and its proximity to Europe, then who can we get?
Yeah, Turkey was relatively secular and on its way to joining the EU and becoming even more Westernized but then Ermahgerd Erdogan gets in power and steers the country back towards theocracy. The kind of cultural change required in the ME is going to be messy, difficult and violent. It's not like Europe's reformation and enlightenment was quick and painless. When the going gets tough people are going to look for leadership and people that tell them what they want to hear/pander to their problems. In theory the Arab Spring was an opportunity for Western secularists to take power in North Africa and get countries moving in a better direction. In actuality, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt are now more prone to the influence of religious zealots both politically and culturally due to the power vacuums created. It would be great for Western moderates to be in charge but they're a minority and relatively peaceful so they didn't stand a chance against the radical Islamist minority that had the physical power to seize political power. Now it will be much harder for us to support secular reforms there short of direct military intervention.
The religious zealots are very violent as we see in all the militant groups like ISIS, but more importantly indifferent to if people they don't like get murdered/tortured/etc. After all, it's not THEM. The secularists/Westernized people there are picking their habits up from the west, and they unfortunately don't apply to the society they live in, as they generally aren't down with murder and whatnot, but the people that pose the biggest obstacle to those secularists don't give a feth if they need to spill some blood to be in charge. It's a losing battle when you still have large contingents of people in your country ready to murder anyone who disagrees with them. You can't win a fight against somebody who is ready and willing to take away your livlihood, imprison you and/or execute you with media reports, peaceful protests and social media activity and there aren't a lot of zealous armed militias ready to fight for the cause of secularism.
I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Regardless of how and why the coup came about, Erdogan obviously is using it as an excuse to consolidate semi-dictatorial control of the country.
It's a question that goes beyond this thread, but we in the West need to ask why countries like Turkey are rejecting democracy and liberal values.
If we can't get modern Turkey, with its modern secular foundation, and its proximity to Europe, then who can we get?
Yeah, Turkey was relatively secular and on its way to joining the EU and becoming even more Westernized but then Ermahgerd Erdogan gets in power and steers the country back towards theocracy. The kind of cultural change required in the ME is going to be messy, difficult and violent. It's not like Europe's reformation and enlightenment was quick and painless. When the going gets tough people are going to look for leadership and people that tell them what they want to hear/pander to their problems. In theory the Arab Spring was an opportunity for Western secularists to take power in North Africa and get countries moving in a better direction. In actuality, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt are now more prone to the influence of religious zealots both politically and culturally due to the power vacuums created. It would be great for Western moderates to be in charge but they're a minority and relatively peaceful so they didn't stand a chance against the radical Islamist minority that had the physical power to seize political power. Now it will be much harder for us to support secular reforms there short of direct military intervention.
The religious zealots are very violent as we see in all the militant groups like ISIS, but more importantly indifferent to if people they don't like get murdered/tortured/etc. After all, it's not THEM. The secularists/Westernized people there are picking their habits up from the west, and they unfortunately don't apply to the society they live in, as they generally aren't down with murder and whatnot, but the people that pose the biggest obstacle to those secularists don't give a feth if they need to spill some blood to be in charge. It's a losing battle when you still have large contingents of people in your country ready to murder anyone who disagrees with them. You can't win a fight against somebody who is ready and willing to take away your livlihood, imprison you and/or execute you with media reports, peaceful protests and social media activity and there aren't a lot of zealous armed militias ready to fight for the cause of secularism.
Again, I'm going beyond this thread, but both our nations (USA and UK) are suffering a crisis of confidence when it comes to defending our values.
In the USA, the constitution and the bill of rights seem to be going out the window, and here in my country, voter apathy and the aloofness of the political elites, grows by the year.
If we don't give a damn about our democracy, we can't expect nations like Turkey to be interested in democracy.
welshhoppo wrote: I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Kurds... there the only ones in region who deserve our help.
welshhoppo wrote: I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.
I'm sure you did. I was just taking the opportunity to show that even pre-radicalized Turkey wasn't a nice place. Post-Radicalized Turkey could be another Iran. Or worse, East LA.
welshhoppo wrote: I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.
I'm sure you did. I was just taking the opportunity to show that even pre-radicalized Turkey wasn't a nice place. Post-Radicalized Turkey could be another Iran. Or worse, East LA.
That was mostly due to the end of the Ottoman Empire, for hundreds of years they were a progressive nation full of religious freedom. They sort of spiralled out of control towards the end however as they lost control over the hundreds of minority groups that made up the different parts of it.
welshhoppo wrote: I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Kurds... there the only ones in region who deserve our help.
welshhoppo wrote: I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Kurds... there the only ones in region who deserve our help.
And also the least likely to get it. :(
I also agree, the West has ignored the plight of the Kurds since the start of the civil war.
welshhoppo wrote: I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Kurds... there the only ones in region who deserve our help.
And also the least likely to get it. :(
I also agree, the West has ignored the plight of the Kurds since the start of the civil war.
If we supported the Kurds and gave them territory in northern Iraq to form Kurdistan (or whatever they'd want to call their country) they would naturally want to expand into territory claimed by Turkey, territory that Kurds and Turkey already fight over. That would mean we'd have to support the creation of a new state that would initiate a territorial dispute and likely overt military action against a country (Turkey) that has been a NATO member since 1952. So supporting the Kurds would put us in oppostion to a NATO ally that we're obligated by the NATO treaty to support.
welshhoppo wrote: I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Kurds... there the only ones in region who deserve our help.
NO.
Kurdish groups have performed terrorists acts in Turkey, and Syria prior to the Syria freakout.
Kurdish groups in Iraq deserve our help, maybe, as a stabilizing force.
What's the repercussion when we tell Turkey "Hayır, olmuyor !". (translated to "Nope, not happening!")
Why do you assume we'll say nope? We'll stall until the election, so the next President can deal with the mess.
Alternatively we could tell Turkey to sod off, and join Russia. We had the Cold War long enough. Time to get the WWII band back together and join with Mother Russia, the UK, and China. :-)
Frazzled wrote: Well there goes that vacation to Turkey when I retire. I had wanted to see the ruins of Troy and the Hagia Sophia. Oh well.
More time to eat Italian food.
Somebody will destroy them one day for being "un-Islamic", just like Syria.
Regardless of how and why the coup came about, Erdogan obviously is using it as an excuse to consolidate semi-dictatorial control of the country.
I'm not so sure it was the Military launching the real Coup here. Are we sure it wasn't Erdogan himself launching a Coup, against the Constitution and his own fething country?
Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.
Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.
Not hiding it now....
El Presidente for life has risen.
On the plus side, I suppose Turkey's EU application is on indefinite hold for say, a 1000 years or something...
Turkey isn't rejecting democracy and liberal values. Erdogan won the election for president by 51.9% in a campaign that was surrounded with accusations of lies and chicanery.
Now the 48.1% are supposed to shut up and accept whatever Erdogan says, "because Democracy".
Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.
Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.
Not hiding it now....
El Presidente for life has risen.
On the plus side, I suppose Turkey's EU application is on indefinite hold for say, a 1000 years or something...
Turkey isn't rejecting democracy and liberal values. Erdogan won the election for president by 51.9% in a campaign that was surrounded with accusations of lies and chicanery.
Now the 48.1% are supposed to shut up and accept whatever Erdogan says, "because Democracy".
ISWYDT:
Spoiler:
Putin is looking on the outside, salivating at an opportunity to establish Turkery as his "next sphere of influence".
No but this still does NOT condon the Coup d'Etat. It shouldn't be condon by any reasons.
Two Wrongs don't make one Right.
Right, and when the guy has become a literal dictator, and begins fething with the Constitution for his own benefit or suspends it altogether, what then? A black and white absolutist perspective just does not work here.
I hate to Godwin the thread, but if this guy wants to be a 21st century Fuhrer? Would you have agreed with a Coup against Hitler prior to 1933?
Sooner or later there comes a point of no return, at which point its too late to stop a dictator's rise to power. This failed "coup" might be Turkey's point of no return.
Anything to say now, Lone Cat? The 21st Century Turkish Fuhrer I predicted and you ridiculed is coming to pass.
Kilkrazy wrote: Turkey isn't rejecting democracy and liberal values. Erdogan won the election for president by 51.9% in a campaign that was surrounded with accusations of lies and chicanery.
Now the 48.1% are supposed to shut up and accept whatever Erdogan says, "because Democracy".
They're supposed to shut up and accept whatever Erdogan says because he'll have them rounded up and arrested if they don't.
Breotan wrote: Why? I was under the impression Putin didn't like Erdogan.
Relations are thawing again. Erdogan is gong to Russia soon, I think.
Realpolitik and all that jazz.
Meanwhile NATO and Europe will do nothing major to upset one of our primary eastern bulwarks and base of operations into the mid east. Erdogan has carte blanche to do whatever he wants. he wants to be a dictator? fine. He's already committed atrocities against his own people with no one in power batting an eyelid.
This topic got overshadowed by the recent shootings and bombings in the news, but what is happening in Turkey is absolutely staggering.
The latest article on Spiegel.de mentions 128 generals and admirals dismissed, along with up to 10.000 other military personnel. Reports of torture. There are arrest warrants for 42 journalists, most of which became famous or infamous for criticizing the government openly or reporting about corruption within governmental agencies, or weapon shipments to extremists in Syria. Over 1000 schools and 15 universities closed down. Even Turkish Airlines dismissed parts of their leadership for dubious reasons, just as their state telecommunication company. Hell, even the governmental religious agency dismissed about 1000 people, teachers and preachers, for alleged "connections" to the coup.
I'm really wondering if NATO, the EU, the US and the West in general will quietly accept Erdogans rise to dictatorship for realpolitik reasons or if some country or some leader will actually openly reject this new Turkey that Erdogan is forging.
With talks of Erdogan wanting to smooth the relationship with Russia and Putin, the West might be forced to take a position sooner than later.
Witzkatz wrote: This topic got overshadowed by the recent shootings and bombings in the news, but what is happening in Turkey is absolutely staggering.
The latest article on Spiegel.de mentions 128 generals and admirals dismissed, along with up to 10.000 other military personnel. Reports of torture. There are arrest warrants for 42 journalists, most of which became famous or infamous for criticizing the government openly or reporting about corruption within governmental agencies, or weapon shipments to extremists in Syria. Over 1000 schools and 15 universities closed down. Even Turkish Airlines dismissed parts of their leadership for dubious reasons, just as their state telecommunication company. Hell, even the governmental religious agency dismissed about 1000 people, teachers and preachers, for alleged "connections" to the coup.
I'm really wondering if NATO, the EU, the US and the West in general will quietly accept Erdogans rise to dictatorship for realpolitik reasons or if some country or some leader will actually openly reject this new Turkey that Erdogan is forging.
With talks of Erdogan wanting to smooth the relationship with Russia and Putin, the West might be forced to take a position sooner than later.
For your answer check out the post war history of Spain, Portugal and Greece.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk must be spinning in his grave. Just a little more and I think we'll have an infinite energy source, just hook a turbine to his grave.
I'm starting to think Erdogan has gone full flying rodent gak crazy.
Er... could the US get their assets out easily?
Maybe move the operations to Greece?
I think that'd be a smart move to consider. Erdogan's rhetoric hasn't been really friendly to the US for some time now. He already openly accused the US of supporting or even having masterminded the coup.
Now is the time to look longer term. Like all dictators Erdogan is looking after his own power base.
For his own ends anti american, anti israeli and pro muslim protestors are allowed a say. Their power will grow as long as they are pro Erdogan. The military, the power behind the throne, is being neutered and will probably be further shackled to Erodgans whims.
When Erdogan goes - however that maybe - the vacum that is left will make the current state of affairs seem like a day at the fair.
Ashiraya wrote: I wonder if the US regrets storing nukes in Turkey now.
Called it though!
Well they are not messing with the nukes yet, but they are messing with the base they are in.
Erdogan does not need nukes. He wont want nukes, he does not need to become a nuclear terrorist. Becoming an international pariah is not on his agenda.
The Turks will not touch the nukes.
Being in the base is not the same as 'getting all the nueks!'
