This is a question I have been wondering for years, every time I make a list and I put nobz in it people blow up and tell me to loose the nobz. I have a hard time seeing as to why they are so bad they have decent stats and two wounds; they are also very customizable you can give them power claws, BC, 'eavy armor, etc. So what's their deal why does everyone consider them to be such a bad unit? I do understand that the 18 point cost is kind of a bummer and that's before upgrades. Also do the nob warbikes work well in most lists??


Cheers, C66

I'm guessing it involves cost.

I used to use Nobz all the time; with Big Choppas they become a typically unseen threat that is much cheaper than equipping them with Power Klaws

I do say this, however, as someone who stopped playing competitively after 5th edition (and doesn't play at all now). Regardless, Nobz worked well in my lists in both 6th and 7th.

G.A

Why take nobz when you can take Meganobz?

In today's gaming climate it's likely because some other unit is 8% cheaper and kills 2% more figures, blah blah blah.

If you like them, run them.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Why take nobz when you can take Meganobz?

Meganobz can't run, fire overwatch or sweep because of Slow and Purposeful. Against marines that isn't too bad as you can't sweep em anyway. Nobz are better against guard, necrons and some others. Most people play marines though, so meganobz do look better for this reason.

The simple answer is that Nobz are two boyz worth of combat effectiveness for the cost of three boyz and a precious elite slot, but can be also instant killed by str 8 and higher.

The slightly longer reason is that Nobz are incredibly cost ineffective for whatever you want them to do. If you want them as a hammer unit that smashes into melee then for 'eavy armor + even just a few power klaws you end up with a similarly costed unit for an equal number of meganobz, the one disadvantage of meganobz (being slow) counteracted by the fact that you'd have to buy a transport for either unit anyway. If you want something to stick around in a spot and hold down the area then boyz or even grots are better suits as they're harder to get rid of thanks to more bodies and they're troops. They have no support potential, They're not a chosen esque unit that can take any special weapons so they're not all that flexible (except for maybe one turn with kombi-weapons). If you want them to kill chaft, then again boyz are just better at it.

Biker nobz are better because they can avoid instant death most of the time and they're fast, but they're nowhere near as good as they were in fifth

Nobz can be beasts..Most are going for Meganobz instead (same slot) with lots of PK's and cheaper than a standard nob PK + ard..

IIRC a nob with heavy armor and powerklaw is like 2 points less than a meganob. Sure, MANz cant overwatch or sweep, but ork overwatch is a joke since we want to be in CC anyway, and our initiative is so bad I rarely sweep as it is. The biggest issue is the lack of running, meaning they cant WAAAAGH!!!, but trukks are cheap and with 2+ armor they laugh at explodes results.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
IIRC a nob with heavy armor and powerklaw is like 2 points less than a meganob. Sure, MANz cant overwatch or sweep, but ork overwatch is a joke since we want to be in CC anyway, and our initiative is so bad I rarely sweep as it is. The biggest issue is the lack of running, meaning they cant WAAAAGH!!!, but trukks are cheap and with 2+ armor they laugh at explodes results.

Actually, a PK nob costs more than a meganob.

I think that in any future codex revision Nobz need to be 16 points, and every one of their wargear options needs to drop 10% in price. (perhaps not the bike, that should only be a minor drop).

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Big Choppas be a little better. Perhaps be AP4, but AP 3 on the charge?

A nob in Eavy armor with a PK is 2pts MORE EXPENSIVE then a MA Nob.

A nob on bike is 45pts give him that needed powerklaw and your looking at a 70pt model.

A nob is I3 so even if you don't give him the PK for Initiative reasons, it won't matter much

A nob still has LD7 because reasons. SO when you do suffer a LD check, your going to lose models if your lucky or if your aren't lucky that expensive ELITE unit runs away.


In the end nobz and ALL of the equipment they can take is OVER PRICED. Nobz should be about 4pts a model cheaper, they should have access to bikes for 15-20pts at most (They currently pay 27) A PK shouldn't be priced at 25pts it should be closer to 20 maybe even 15 in the current meta of Scat bikes costing around the same price as a PK upgrade.

If you want them for Dakka your doing it wrong, if you want them for Close combat, boyz and MA Nobz are better.

The only time it is worth taking Nobz is if you are running a crazy CAD and need an extra HS slot for a Battlewagon, so you pay the 54pt tax to take a Dedicated Transport in the form of that Battlewagon.

Aren't PK the same as Power Fists? So they should cost the same.

pm713 wrote:
Aren't PK the same as Power Fists? So they should cost the same.

They are exactly the same, but the difference is that a SM army has shooty options to take out high AV and T targets, Orks have PKs.

But even by that logic PF's should be cheaper as well. Why is a PF or PK as expensive as a Scat Bike?

SemperMortis wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Aren't PK the same as Power Fists? So they should cost the same.

They are exactly the same, but the difference is that a SM army has shooty options to take out high AV and T targets, Orks have PKs.

But even by that logic PF's should be cheaper as well. Why is a PF or PK as expensive as a Scat Bike?

Because a scatbike is underpriced. The solution to bad balance is improving the balance not making it worse.

pm713 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Aren't PK the same as Power Fists? So they should cost the same.

They are exactly the same, but the difference is that a SM army has shooty options to take out high AV and T targets, Orks have PKs.

But even by that logic PF's should be cheaper as well. Why is a PF or PK as expensive as a Scat Bike?

Because a scatbike is underpriced. The solution to bad balance is improving the balance not making it worse.

Yes well, how long have we known that most of the Eldar codex is cheese and under priced? how much effort has GW put into fixing that problem? how much effort will they put into fixing that?

Everything about CC has become HARDER and more difficult to accomplish while shooting has become easier. Sweeping into new Combat is no longer a thing, Over watch is a thing, have we seen a decrease in point costs for CC units or gear? nope. GW has about as much knowledge of balance as I do of Astrophysics.

SemperMortis wrote:

pm713 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Aren't PK the same as Power Fists? So they should cost the same.

They are exactly the same, but the difference is that a SM army has shooty options to take out high AV and T targets, Orks have PKs.

But even by that logic PF's should be cheaper as well. Why is a PF or PK as expensive as a Scat Bike?

Because a scatbike is underpriced. The solution to bad balance is improving the balance not making it worse.

Yes well, how long have we known that most of the Eldar codex is cheese and under priced? how much effort has GW put into fixing that problem? how much effort will they put into fixing that?

Everything about CC has become HARDER and more difficult to accomplish while shooting has become easier. Sweeping into new Combat is no longer a thing, Over watch is a thing, have we seen a decrease in point costs for CC units or gear? nope. GW has about as much knowledge of balance as I do of Astrophysics.

Because Overwatch is so strong.

pm713 wrote:

Because Overwatch is so strong.

Depends on the army, but realistically if you successfully kill 1-2 of my boyz you generally are increasing the charge range for me by 1-2 inches on average. That 8in charge just became a 10in charge.

Sweeping into future combats was a big blow to CC. If you could charge out of reserve or out flanking or infiltrate (I think you used to out of out flank, can't remember) then it would help, but at the moment most armies just aren't afraid of CC armies. CC Deathstars? yes very scary, most have 2+ rerollables or invisibility or other nonsense that helps them get into CC and stay alive when they get there, the other units and CC armies? well not so much.

I have yet to hear anyone actually complain about CC being to powerful or hell even AS powerful as shooting, except in the context of deathstars.

SemperMortis wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Because Overwatch is so strong.

Depends on the army, but realistically if you successfully kill 1-2 of my boyz you generally are increasing the charge range for me by 1-2 inches on average. That 8in charge just became a 10in charge.

Sweeping into future combats was a big blow to CC. If you could charge out of reserve or out flanking or infiltrate (I think you used to out of out flank, can't remember) then it would help, but at the moment most armies just aren't afraid of CC armies. CC Deathstars? yes very scary, most have 2+ rerollables or invisibility or other nonsense that helps them get into CC and stay alive when they get there, the other units and CC armies? well not so much.

I have yet to hear anyone actually complain about CC being to powerful or hell even AS powerful as shooting, except in the context of deathstars.

I'm not saying cc is balanced. I am saying people love to exaggerate the issues a lot. Sweeping into other combats also nerfs shooting massively as you either run out of board space fast or lose most shooting after turn two.

It's the exact same problem as Chosen: they pay full price for expensive wargear on low durability models.

First step to balance 40k: go back to the model where upgrades vary in price based on 1 wound/multi wound.

To be fair GW has done more to make the game balanced then other games such as MtG, in other games you just spend the most money and always win.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Why take nobz when you can take Meganobz?

Meganobz can't run, fire overwatch or sweep because of Slow and Purposeful. Against marines that isn't too bad as you can't sweep em anyway. Nobz are better against guard, necrons and some others. Most people play marines though, so meganobz do look better for this reason.

You're taking transports for both anyway and Nobz have nothing in terms of Overwatch damage, so I'm honestly not sure why you mention that as though it were a selling point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, regarding sweeping, Nobz aren't nearly durable enough to want to sweep things as they'll take a bunch of fire next turn and die.

Like many things in the Ork codex, nobs suffer from being highly priced in comparison to what can be thrown against them. Especially considering the point investment you make, and what other codex option you could take instead.

 Elbows wrote:
In today's gaming climate it's likely because some other unit is 8% cheaper and kills 2% more figures, blah blah blah.

It's because a nob with a power claw and 6+ armor costs more than a nob with a power claw and 2+ armor. Does it change your math a bit?

They used to be very good on bikes before the new codex. Also, they could be troops. You can't make them troops now, so it's another drawback. And the most important issue is that you take nobz for the pk, really. The only thing they have over manz is that they're not snp. But you're paying too much for this advantage. Speed is generally not an issue. And ini3 is not exactly overly great for catching up stuff. Furthermore, snp can have an advantage against marines (>60% games) when you catch them near the board edge.

Manz have a formation that makes them fearless so they don't instantly become useless when you face a psycher deathstar. Without fearless, they just deal too low damage and get swept or run away. But they can hold up with fearless and deny scoring.

If you can make nobz mob workshop for you they are good enough.

The fem things they have going for them are:
-Sweeping advance
-WS5
-Hidden powerklaws
-Lots of S6, AP5
-Nobz on warbikes are better in melee than warbikers
-Dedicated battlewagon (compared to boyz)

I haven't had much experience with my Nobs since they've, cough, not yet made it to CC (granted I haven't played many games with they yet either).

I run a 10 man squad w/ Big Choppas apart from the Boss Nob with a PK, complemented with KFF + Painboy support.

Two changes I'm considering -
1. Drop 5 Big Choppas and get +1 PK.
2. Drop all but 1 Big Choppa and get +Eavy Armour (for more melee resilience).

What would you guys recommend?

I've just made a list recently after a small discussion about the Nobs mob. This list is built for 1850 noncompetitive play.
The Nobs were chosen over MANZ because I could get more of them in the unit for the points with out loosing models in other units.
It's a strange list 2 mobs of 20 evy' armoured shoota boys and 2 large grot mobs. not a lot of choppy power there. then 9 or 10 nobs with only 2 power klaws a WAAAGH Banner in a trukk with a Mega boss. It's easy enough to reshuffle some points for a pain boy as I have enough troop choices to do 2 CAD. Not a lot of power klaws in the list but at 43 or more points a models why do that. The plan is to multi assault in a way where one or more of the power klaws can hit a vehicle or more. counting on Penetrating hits to massively swing a combat.
I think a Mega boss will either survive a challenge or intimidate the Challenger away. The key thing I see is not to throw this at anything that can kill it. I really wish to at some point just rune 3 nobs mobs like this - the MegaBoss. I have to rebase and rearm a few nobs first.
They'll be like trukk boys...but Nobs.

Meganobz are more killy, more durable, and cost less than a regular Nob with a powerklaw. They just don't hold up quite as well to them. That being said I've got a buttload of Nob kits, and a cheaper mob with some big choppas and kombi-skorchas sounds like a good idea.

Which is better for their price Nob bikers or warbikers??

Warbikers will have more wounds. You just need to get Klaws in the squads, plus their guns aren't half-bad (even at the ever-fun BS2).

I think nob bikers are too expensive to be good. I would rather take more normal bikers.

Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

Indeed, after see the wulfen, orks players cry


In any case the main fact of the nob being rubbish is the principal problem of full ork codex (units and wargear): extreme overpriced.


Because reasons, all is really overpriced according to how durable or killing are on the table.


The ork have a problem: they have a lot of unit prices that suits into a specialist army...but on units with the stats of a cheap horde unit

Franarok wrote:
Indeed, after see the wulfen, orks players cry


In any case the main fact of the nob being rubbish is the principal problem of full ork codex (units and wargear): extreme overpriced.


Because reasons, all is really overpriced according to how durable or killing are on the table.


The ork have a problem: they have a lot of unit prices that suits into a specialist army...but on units with the stats of a cheap horde unit

Orc and Nid players both.
I don't know how the Wulfen would translate to Orcs on a fluff level but they are what Genestealers really should be.

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think nob bikers are too expensive to be good. I would rather take more normal bikers.

Minimum squad of Nob Bikers with 1 powerklaw = 160pts
Minimum squad of Warbikers with 1 Powerklaw nob = 89pts.

For similar points costs to that Nob biker squad you can take 6 Warbiker and 1 Warbiker Nob with a PK

In other words Nob bikers have 6 wounds, to Warbikers 8. Nobz have 3 PK S8 attacks (4 and S9 on charge) and 8 S4 attacks (10 and S5 on charge) vs the Warbikers having the same amount of PK attacks and 18 S3 attacks (24 and S4 on charge).

Nobz can fire 9 S5 TL shots vs the Warbikers 21.
Basically, Nob bikers suck compared to warbikers.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think nob bikers are too expensive to be good. I would rather take more normal bikers.

Minimum squad of Nob Bikers with 1 powerklaw = 160pts
Minimum squad of Warbikers with 1 Powerklaw nob = 89pts.

For similar points costs to that Nob biker squad you can take 6 Warbiker and 1 Warbiker Nob with a PK

In other words Nob bikers have 6 wounds, to Warbikers 8. Nobz have 3 PK S8 attacks (4 and S9 on charge) and 8 S4 attacks (10 and S5 on charge) vs the Warbikers having the same amount of PK attacks and 18 S3 attacks (24 and S4 on charge).

Nobz can fire 9 S5 TL shots vs the Warbikers 21.
Basically, Nob bikers suck compared to warbikers.

Yup. Honestly I find I use the bikers in so much becuase of their solid shooting which is identical between a Nob and boy.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Orc and Nid players both.
I don't know how the Wulfen would translate to Orcs on a fluff level but they are what Genestealers really should be.

From my point of view as an Ork / Nid player, Wolfen are much more Nob like than Genestealer. They are big beefy, and killy with lots of special weapons. They rely on 4+ armor and FNP.

Genestealers are infiltrators, and renders and limited wargear options. They should definitely be improved with massive points drops and ability upgrades, but I'm not really envisioning them to be much like Wulfen. Maybe more like Genestealer Cult Hybrids. (Grenades, Infiltrate, Stealth, no instinctive behavior, more attacks, and much, much cheaper). The other option is to make them beasts to fix some of their mobility problems, so I guess that makes them more like... Necron scarabs? Rending Khornedogs?

Think that to make competitive the nobs and the codex they need do a general point reduction. All the units should cost 1/3 or the 50% of the current price (depending of the unit current status)

tag8833 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Orc and Nid players both.
I don't know how the Wulfen would translate to Orcs on a fluff level but they are what Genestealers really should be.

From my point of view as an Ork / Nid player, Wolfen are much more Nob like than Genestealer. They are big beefy, and killy with lots of special weapons. They rely on 4+ armor and FNP.

Genestealers are infiltrators, and renders and limited wargear options. They should definitely be improved with massive points drops and ability upgrades, but I'm not really envisioning them to be much like Wulfen. Maybe more like Genestealer Cult Hybrids. (Grenades, Infiltrate, Stealth, no instinctive behavior, more attacks, and much, much cheaper). The other option is to make them beasts to fix some of their mobility problems, so I guess that makes them more like... Necron scarabs? Rending Khornedogs?

Genestealers are infiltrators but according to their blurb in their codex 'They are amongst the most deadly creatures in the Galaxy, combining high cunning, lightning-fast reactions and movement, with large, extremely sharp claws that can rip through the toughest armour in seconds.' sounds an aweful lot like the Wulfen right now? According to the table-top however they fill the battlefield role of clay pigeons.

I'd like to see them get rules to reflect just how terrifying they should be, these things plant eggs and in and make zombies out of victims!
I'd like to see them get faster to get into combat by way of Bounding Lope then if they win the combat roll a dice for each model removed as a casualty the same turn to see if they become brood slaves.
3-6 nothing happens
Roll of 1 or 2 the model gets back up losing armour and invulnerable saves and is now under the control of the Genestealer's controller.

I'd actually like to see all Gaunts become beasts and Hermagaunts in particular get Bounding Lope.

Nids would be epic if they had just those changes.

Genestealers are infiltrators but according to their blurb in their codex 'They are amongst the most deadly creatures in the Galaxy, combining high cunning, lightning-fast reactions and movement, with large, extremely sharp claws that can rip through the toughest armour in seconds.' sounds an aweful lot like the Wulfen right now? According to the table-top however they fill the battlefield role of clay pigeons.

To be honest, I think Genestealers are about right. What they need to work isn't to be tougher or stabbier but sneakier. The Ghosar Quintus Broodkin and Manufactorum Genestealer formations do this perfectly; your opponent gets long enough to go "wait....did you hear somethaaaaaaarrg!" before getting buried in genestealers who've infiltrated 1" away from him.


Nobz are okay. As noted, a big problem is that a basic nob costs three times the price of a basic boy - which is a fair comparison as they're from the same codex, and the boy (as a troops choice) can get Objective Secured where the Nob cannot.

The problem is that Nobz don't have one-and-a-half times the fighting power of the same weight of ork boyz. Bolt on loads of upgrades....sure, then you do, at WS5, S6, Sv4+ and Feel No Pain, but by then you're paying - as noted - close to Meganobz prices, and Meganobz are most definitely better in a scrap.

Yes, regular nobz can fire overwatch - but don't really have the firepower for that to matter - and can run - but orks have easy access to open-topped fast transports, so you can get round that easily.

A big problem is that they cap at units of ten, and another is that a big part of their durability is an extra wound. The difference between having 2 wounds and a 4+ save is most important in assaults; if two identical units fight an assault, but one has 2 wounds and one has a 4+ save, the latter will win almost all the time because saved wounds don't count towards combat results. Since Nobz are emphatically an assault unit, and furthermore are an assault unit with fairly shoddy leadership, the fact that they can easily lose a round of combat to a unit they would actually kill in the long run seriously impact their effectiveness.

Nobz were always one of my favourite units when I used to play 40k. Very characterful models, and great for the modelling side of the hobby.

In a tournament environment where every point counts, I don't doubt that nobz are unpopular, but if you're playing friendly games or low points games, they are a fun unit that are good to play.

My advice would be this: if you like the unit, run them. It's supposed to be a fun hobby at the end of the day...

They have no dependable delivery method, die to bolter fire, and die faster to str 8, and are more susceptible to bad leadership dice due to their number. Most typical opponents might play one game against you were you might slip one good nob unit in there and maybe it'll make a mess but once they know they are expensive and essentially dead to any shooting they will prioritize them. They are a weak link except maybe as a 3 man unit to play hell with your opponents shooting priorities, then only a distraction at best.

I field nobz often, anytime I get fancier then a 3 man unit they just become expensive casualties.

So how do you field them just 3 nude nobz ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or 3 +1 pwr klw. Just a a cheap klaw missile ?

 oldzoggy wrote:
So how do you field them just 3 nude nobz ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or 3 +1 pwr klw. Just a a cheap klaw missile ?

Yes, small enough to forget. If rest if the army is walking they walk, otherwise I might give them a truck. Put them next to something so they can supply an extra klaw who doesnt have to be a character.

It's not good it's just the only way your opponent might ignore them

 Rismonite wrote:
Yes, small enough to forget. If rest if the army is walking they walk, otherwise I might give them a truck. Put them next to something so they can supply an extra klaw who doesnt have to be a character.

It's not good it's just the only way your opponent might ignore them

The problem with that is that boyz are better at scoring, assaulting, and surviving, so if you'd rather take boys in that role.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Why take nobz when you can take Meganobz?

This. in the 5th edition codex, there was a balance between nobz and meganobz - nobz had +1 WS, invluns, and FNP, which made them effective at tackling a range of mean things (especially AP2 things), whereas meganobz had a dirt-cheap 2+ armor and PK, for roughly the same overall points cost.

In this codex, neither has invluns, both have the same access to FNP, and meganobz can now get +1 WS from DLS. And they are cheaper than a similarly equipped nob with worse armor ('eavy armor and PK).

So, simply put, nobz have no real advantages over MANZ anymore. Yes, they can run and sweeping advance, but that's nothing compared to the bargain 2+ armor save and PK.

That being said, I do occasionally run nobz, and they honestly aren't horrible. But anymore, any job nobz can do meganobz can do better. It's sad, because they both had their place before, but MANZ are now objectively better than nobz in all the ways that count.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Franarok wrote:
Indeed, after see the wulfen, orks players cry


In any case the main fact of the nob being rubbish is the principal problem of full ork codex (units and wargear): extreme overpriced.


Because reasons, all is really overpriced according to how durable or killing are on the table.


The ork have a problem: they have a lot of unit prices that suits into a specialist army...but on units with the stats of a cheap horde unit

Orc and Nid players both.
I don't know how the Wulfen would translate to Orcs on a fluff level but they are what Genestealers really should be.

Wulfen and Genestealers are completely different.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think nob bikers are too expensive to be good. I would rather take more normal bikers.

Minimum squad of Nob Bikers with 1 powerklaw = 160pts
Minimum squad of Warbikers with 1 Powerklaw nob = 89pts.

For similar points costs to that Nob biker squad you can take 6 Warbiker and 1 Warbiker Nob with a PK

In other words Nob bikers have 6 wounds, to Warbikers 8. Nobz have 3 PK S8 attacks (4 and S9 on charge) and 8 S4 attacks (10 and S5 on charge) vs the Warbikers having the same amount of PK attacks and 18 S3 attacks (24 and S4 on charge).

Nobz can fire 9 S5 TL shots vs the Warbikers 21.
Basically, Nob bikers suck compared to warbikers.

Yup. Honestly I find I use the bikers in so much becuase of their solid shooting which is identical between a Nob and boy.

Yup, anything Nobz can do, boyz can do better, and for cheaper.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
in the 5th edition codex, there was a balance between nobz and meganobz

There was no balance cause meganobz sucked. No fnp, no characters for bp - just raw ld7. They needed a babysitter. Nobz on the other hand, could get 5++ and back it up with 4+++ which made them on par with 2+ armor point-to point against non-ap2/id and better against ap2. Easier wound-cheezing options too. Oh, and bikes ofc. And let's not forget that every power weapon was ap2 and it was not so rare to meet a power sword sarge in a tactical squad.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Genestealers are infiltrators but according to their blurb in their codex 'They are amongst the most deadly creatures in the Galaxy, combining high cunning, lightning-fast reactions and movement, with large, extremely sharp claws that can rip through the toughest armour in seconds.' sounds an aweful lot like the Wulfen right now? According to the table-top however they fill the battlefield role of clay pigeons.

I think they fluff is just a hold over from the RT/ALIEN/Space Hulk days.

In second edition they were terrifying, capable of shredding Terminators to ribbons.
In 3rd ? edition they had the equivalent of power weapons, making them too expensive for what they did.
Then they nerfed the power weapon approach, and made plastic hormagaunts which just do the same job cheaper.

Up until the recent Genestealer Cult rules, there hasn't been much of a reason to field them, other than they look cool.

 adamsouza wrote:
Up until the recent Genestealer Cult rules, there hasn't been much of a reason to field them, other than they look cool.

They are also the weakest part of the genestealer cult. The number of times I've pulled off a turn 1 charge only to have them die in CC before they get to Swing because they lack grenades is only equaled by the number of times they've died to overwatch.

They Hybrids are like better and cheaper version of Genestealers.

Genestealers are in a rather sad state.
I think GW are too attached to the statlines of units. They add/remove/change special rules all the time, but it's very rare for them to change the numbers on a unit.

They had a chance to fix genestealers with GSC, but they opted to instead just add Stealth and Hit-And-Run. Leaving them alongside new units that out-perform them in basically every way.

Arson Fire wrote:
Genestealers are in a rather sad state.
I think GW are too attached to the statlines of units. They add/remove/change special rules all the time, but it's very rare for them to change the numbers on a unit.

They had a chance to fix genestealers with GSC, but they opted to instead just add Stealth and Hit-And-Run. Leaving them alongside new units that out-perform them in basically every way.

No offense to the rest of you guys rambling about Genestealers in a Ork Nob thread, but could you please get back on topic or make your own thread?

As far as the statline changes the only time I can think of that happening in recent memory was the SM scouts getting +1 WS/BS. Besides that I actually can't think of any, i am sure there are some, they are just escaping me atm.

I would love to see Ork Nobz get +1 T and at least +1 Leadership, maybe come stock with 4+ armor as well.

tag8833 wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Yes, small enough to forget. If rest if the army is walking they walk, otherwise I might give them a truck. Put them next to something so they can supply an extra klaw who doesnt have to be a character.

It's not good it's just the only way your opponent might ignore them

The problem with that is that boyz are better at scoring, assaulting, and surviving, so if you'd rather take boys in that role.

This 100% correct. I would like to offer they have an almost acceptable niche in being small enough to work around large blocks of boyz rather well. They can also be armed to have a character for challenges and a hidden klaw. As assault support of sorts. I never run like 6 squads of three and pretend its a mainstay, but a friendly game that I run 3 blocks of 30 boyz maybe I jam a squad of three nobz between each of the blocks of boyz

The issue with all orks is that damned 6+ armor.

Nobz would be fine at their point value except they have 6+ armor....

 sfshilo wrote:
The issue with all orks is that damned 6+ armor.

Nobz would be fine at their point value except they have 6+ armor....

And the only good upgrade for them is a PK. No weapons, no abilities, nothing.

To make Nobz better give them the 4+ armour for free it makes sense that your bigger better boys get bigger better armour

Give all Nobz 4+ armor stock and give Big Choppas rending. This makes them decently good at tearing up vehicles and can fight those high toughness and high armor targets. Not quite Wulfen levels of destruction but it gives them a needed price drop and doesn't make them inept at fighting anything with 2+ armor without having to shell out for 25 point PKs.

As it currently stands if you want to kill things in close combat you take MANz, if you aren't giving everybody PKs then your just trying to be higher strength boyz so might as well take Flash Gitz who at least have formidable guns. Bikes would be the thing to go but GW nerfed the bike cost for Nobz because whoever wrote the Ork dex had 5th edition PTSD. Also now that Nobz can't take cybork and it isn't 5++ anymore there isn't any niche for Nobz to take when you can just throw a Painboy into a MANz squad.

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

Completely disagree on your last sentence. They are a seed of hope. The fact they aren't a sucktacular melee unit gives hope to the others.

nareik wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

Completely disagree on your last sentence. They are a seed of hope. The fact they aren't a sucktacular melee unit gives hope to the others.

They're a fantastic melee unit in an Imperial army.

Odds of Orks, Tyranids or CSM getting a unit half as good given their speedbump status that GW seems to want to enforce? Not great.

nareik wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

Completely disagree on your last sentence. They are a seed of hope. The fact they aren't a sucktacular melee unit gives hope to the others.

I think the point he was making is that SM players already have all sorts of good toys to play with and good units to draw from and amazing gear to add on that is priced relatively well. Giving them a Giant Melee beat stick to go with everything else makes those armies who are COMPLETELY melee based, Nids, CSM and Orks feel like they are getting screwed over.

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

I'm a SW player and I'm bothered by Wulfen...

What really irritates me is how SW get (literally) a +1 version of basically every melee weapon. Wolf claws? S+1 LC, for the exact same price. Frost claws? S+1 AP2. And so on.

Back on topic, the fact that elite units pay HQ-level prices for weapons and gear is a big issue. A Power Klaw might be worth it on a Warboss, but not a Nob. A pair of Lightning Claws might be worth it on a Chaos Lord, but not a Chosen.

 Lukash_ wrote:
What really irritates me is how SW get (literally) a +1 version of basically every melee weapon. Wolf claws? S+1 LC, for the exact same price. Frost claws? S+1 AP2. And so on.

Back on topic, the fact that elite units pay HQ-level prices for weapons and gear is a big issue. A Power Klaw might be worth it on a Warboss, but not a Nob. A pair of Lightning Claws might be worth it on a Chaos Lord, but not a Chosen.

They aren't the same price. If you want to talk about getting +1 for things look at SM.

The pricing system for GW is strange. Some units seem to have randomly cheaper upgrades e.g. Ravenwing Huntmaster gets a 7 point power weapon IIRC.

SemperMortis wrote:

nareik wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

Completely disagree on your last sentence. They are a seed of hope. The fact they aren't a sucktacular melee unit gives hope to the others.

I think the point he was making is that SM players already have all sorts of good toys to play with and good units to draw from and amazing gear to add on that is priced relatively well. Giving them a Giant Melee beat stick to go with everything else makes those armies who are COMPLETELY melee based, Nids, CSM and Orks feel like they are getting screwed over.

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

Wulfen are not a SM unit though, they are a SW unit. SW are just as as much "completely" melee as Nids, CSM and Orks.

Like mentioned, it is hopefully a sign that melee is going to make a come back and hopefully other codex(es) get similar.

SemperMortis wrote:

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

To be fair I don't think there is anything outside of a psychic enhanced deathstar that can go up against Wulfen without getting obliterated in melee. Wulfen are the kind of unit that requires ranged firepower to deal with.

 Vankraken wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

To be fair I don't think there is anything outside of a psychic enhanced deathstar that can go up against Wulfen without getting obliterated in melee. Wulfen are the kind of unit that requires ranged firepower to deal with.

And we all know how much ranged firepower orks have at their disposal

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

To be fair I don't think there is anything outside of a psychic enhanced deathstar that can go up against Wulfen without getting obliterated in melee. Wulfen are the kind of unit that requires ranged firepower to deal with.

And we all know how much ranged firepower orks have at their disposal

Tons, just none of it is good

Ranged weapons that ignore cover? none, except the missiles from the Burna Bomber.....arguably the worst flyer in the game.

Ranged weapons with BS3 or better? Mek gunz....with their Ld5 or whatever the hell it is.

Orks' firepower is qute decent. It's enough to deal with wulfen. Not enough to deal with invisible wulfen though.

 koooaei wrote:
Orks' firepower is qute decent. It's enough to deal with wulfen. Not enough to deal with invisible wulfen though.

Only if you sunk a lot of your army into a gun line.

I tried surprising a friend who plays Mechanicus with an Ork Gunline. Battlewagons with Kill Kannons, filled with Lootas, Mek Gunz, shoota boyz. It didnt work for garbage. Orks are literally piss poor at EVERYTHING.

Think of what the orks are good at and there is an entire race that is better at it then the orks. CC? KDK are better, Gun line? tons of armies are better, Maneuverability? Eldar/Tau are better, cheap horde army? Nids and IG are better.

Nobz are supposed to be on par with other armies elite choices, they aren't.

pm713 wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:
What really irritates me is how SW get (literally) a +1 version of basically every melee weapon. Wolf claws? S+1 LC, for the exact same price. Frost claws? S+1 AP2. And so on.

Back on topic, the fact that elite units pay HQ-level prices for weapons and gear is a big issue. A Power Klaw might be worth it on a Warboss, but not a Nob. A pair of Lightning Claws might be worth it on a Chaos Lord, but not a Chosen.

They aren't the same price. If you want to talk about getting +1 for things look at SM.

The pricing system for GW is strange. Some units seem to have randomly cheaper upgrades e.g. Ravenwing Huntmaster gets a 7 point power weapon IIRC.

My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

I think melee upgrades in general (with a few exceptions) could use a price cut across the board.

Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

They should never have been able to take storm shields.

Martel732 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

They should never have been able to take storm shields.

Well if GW is known for anything, its to ensure that space wolves are almost never at a loss for shoring up potential weaknesses in units.

Martel732 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

They should never have been able to take storm shields.

They should never have had any weapons. The only one with the potential to be justified is the grenade launcher.

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

Not all of them are going to have Storm Shields. Enough shots and you'll be...okay.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

Not all of them are going to have Storm Shields. Enough shots and you'll be...okay.

And in the context of the original post, Tank Bustas maxed out are 10 boyz strong. that is 10 S8 AP3 shots, 3 of which will hit and 2-3 will wound. So that is 1-2 dead wulfen. Of course that is all situational, since neither unit will fight each other in a vacuum, but the point remains. Tank Bustas by themselves can't stop a wulfen squad.

Tank Bustas maxed out are 10 boyz strong.

Tank Bustas cap at 15.

 warhead01 wrote:

Tank Bustas maxed out are 10 boyz strong.

Tank Bustas cap at 15.

You are correct, I never field them in groups that big. But lets go with 15 Tank bustas. that is 5 hits reliably with Rokkitz, thats 2.5 wounds against Wulfen with an invul save. SO 2-3 dead wulfen, it just took a huge expensive tank hunting unit that has short range weapons and 6+ armor.

Lobbas are enough to kill 1-2 models, lootas will kill another one, tankbustas will kill another one. Also, don't forget that you have a lot of fast chaff like koptas and trukks and he doesn't. So you can perform precision bottle-neck charges. I do it with bully boyz - you cut off >50% of incoming damage and deal 100% damage yourself. It evens things out.

But the thread is about how nobz are not nearly as good as this. You don't need much to stop them - all for the same price.

I have a squad of nobz to lead my warboss because its one of the GW warbosses without megaarmor and I didn't want a mismatch retinue.

I guess MANZ are better but I can't equip them with like my nobz, that is, big choppas. Making terminators take a 15 armor saves before their powerfists/thunderhammers go off is pretty substantial. And I guess at that point why not take boyz as they do functionally the same thing, but wounding on 2s and having 2 wounds helps a heck of a lot. Plus you glance vehicles to death a lot easier I find.

But yea the ork codex has some insanely overcosted garbage. Its a colossal failure that we don't have an ap 3 melee weapon in a melee centric army.

 koooaei wrote:
Lobbas are enough to kill 1-2 models, lootas will kill another one, tankbustas will kill another one. Also, don't forget that you have a lot of fast chaff like koptas and trukks and he doesn't. So you can perform precision bottle-neck charges. I do it with bully boyz - you cut off >50% of incoming damage and deal 100% damage yourself. It evens things out.

But the thread is about how nobz are not nearly as good as this. You don't need much to stop them - all for the same price.

So if you sink a unit lobbas, a unit of Lootas and a unit of tankbustas into targetting a single unit you have a good chance to remove it...5 models.

Anyway, I think the current problem is that the staff on GW thinks that SM, Eldar and Tau should receive special rules that give them bonuses across the board with little to no downside and that Orks and CSM and nids should receive Universal special rules that are situational at best and utter nerfs at worst.

Take a look at the aforementioned Wulfen special rules. Now take a look at the Nobz special rules, do a compare and contrast.

They need to sell wulfen - everyone has nobz and termies allready.

You think they'd need to sell sanguinary guard. But they suck.

I think there is an unwritten rule that the Blood Angels can never be as good at anything as the Space Wolves.

I feel like we are starting to deviate from the topic at hand and are beginning to just talk about why SW are CC gods.

Ork Nobz are horrible because for everything they do, there is a better, cheaper unit in Codex:Orks.

the one really good unique thing they can do(massed klaws on bikes) is questionable, because too damn expensive
(5 nobz(moar wounds), 3 klaws, 2 bp just because and 2 bigChoppas=185(nobs and stuff)+ 135 (FOR 5 BIKES ONLY!!!)(compare 4 regular bikers+nob and stuff=130).
thats ca one Knight(not a grey one) in points. if you think you need no bikes youll have t4 models(now we might need 4+armour) in a battlewagon that is equal in points. (or in a trukk, but we dont wanna do that because its not very clever.)
you better start getting fearless somehow.

if you really wanna go this way, you should not forget to add a painboy and the warboss to this unit. NOW you stand a chance vs almost everything, but have a unit that is about *500 points* you almost auto-lose the game should this unit be compromised in any way. not to mention saturation and target priority.
for 500 points you could play a buzzgob stompa.

and still- beware of anything faster and bigger(no cc invuln, no matter what), instant death, stormshields etc, not to mention psychic shenannigans or just tau/eldar shooting.

orks live by their numbers. more bodies=better
a warboss or regular nob with klaw and some 20odd attacks will easily kill any regular vehicle. for anything that needs more killing, better shoot with your megakannons first and finish it with some klaw(s).
or use stompa.

There was an old thread on how to use nobz. And i think the best you can get is 3 heavy armored nobz in a trukk with one bosspole. This way you have something like a heavilly downgraded MaNz missile - without 2+, without PK but still capable of dealing with chaff, weak tanks and small scoring units for 30% cheper. Not nearly as dangerous as MANz but they benefit from waaagh and can sweep. They cost 106 pts with a ram trukk, ha and bp. Quite fragile though. If a tac squad sees 3 manz nearby, they're screwed. Nobz - it's not a guarantee.

 koooaei wrote:
There was an old thread on how to use nobz. And i think the best you can get is 3 heavy armored nobz in a trukk with one bosspole. This way you have something like a heavilly downgraded MaNz missile - without 2+, without PK but still capable of dealing with chaff, weak tanks and small scoring units for 30% cheper. Not nearly as dangerous as MANz but they benefit from waaagh and can sweep. They cost 106 pts with a ram trukk, ha and bp. Quite fragile though. If a tac squad sees 3 manz nearby, they're screwed. Nobz - it's not a guarantee.

Run that trukk in front of a trukk load of boyz and if the nobz trukk explodes they won't die from it. If they make it to combat you can charge with both units adding weight and accept challenges to the nobz squad letting the boyz nob go to town with his pk. Could work plus if you're a Brit then calling it a nob missile adds all sorts of unfortunate but funny euphemisms.