Hi people. So, these last days I was looking back at my old copies of several codex, rulebooks, etc., and a small thought occured to me : what if the Imperium was in fact multicultural ?

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that there is a strong, core, cultural pillar in the Imperium (which is the Imperial creed), but still, when you look at the different factions that compose the Imperium, you can't help but notice how many of them are different from each other.

For example, look at the Vostroyans, the Tarlarns and the Catachans. All are Imperial, yet each has it's own traditions and way of life and views about the galaxy.

Another more bleeding obvious example are the Adeptus Astartes chapters, even those that are Codex Astartes followers.

Could it be that for all its military/ dictatorial looks, the Imperium is in fact multicultural and open to pluralism (regarding human factions, of course) ?

In the end, Imperium is just a supraplanetary union, like UN or EU (but with standing army), and individual planets and systems have free reign in organizing themselves as long as they pay appropiate tithes and stick to the guidelines. Imperium is quite liberal when you start to think about it.

Is it more multicultural than we thought ?

Hard to awnser I don't know multicultural the collective mind of dakka expects the IoM to be.

But is the Imperium more multicultural than you expected them to be, defiantly.The cultural variation in the miniatures doesnt even come close to the cultural variation in the fluff. The IoM is big really big ans most parts of it are socially relatively isolated from the rest.This alone should have given rise to a huge variation of cultures due to the basic laws of evolution and the fluff writes love to go crazy with this idea.

I have never considered the Imperium to be monocultured, so... no? I mean, certain things like certain core tenets of the Imperial Creed, the practices of the Administratum and the Mechanicum, stuff like that, is going to be the same anywhere you go, but every planet is otherwise going to be fairly unique, and the people that live on those planets are going to speak their own dialect of Gothic, be physically and psychologically shaped by the environment of their planet, and have different cultural norms, mores, practices and beliefs.

The Imperium is actually quite permissive when it comes to a lot of things. Pay your tithe, worship the Emperor in some form - and they're honestly very lenient about the way you do it, so long as in the end you're paying homage to the Emperor - hand over your psykers, don't deal with aliens (with a list of exceptions if you're rich or powerful enough), and mutants are bad, mmkay (again, with a list of exceptions, and you don't HAVE to kill them if you keep them oppressed enough) and the rest doesn't matter. The Imperium as a whole doesn't care about your gender, your language, your race, or anything else like that. When it comes right down to it, you're human, and that's what matters.

The Imperium is comprised of a million worlds, many of which don't even share the same language.

So it obviously isn't monocultural.

The Imperium is extremely multicultural, but that does not change anything about it being a militaristic dictatorship. The Soviet Union was also very multicultural, yet also a militaristic dictatorship.

It is really fun, because it means you can just invent your own planetary civilisation if you like writing fluff.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Imperium is extremely multicultural, but that does not change anything about it being a militaristic dictatorship. The Soviet Union was also very multicultural, yet also a militaristic dictatorship.

It is really fun, because it means you can just invent your own planetary civilisation if you like writing fluff.

which was why GW set it up that way

Long as you follow basic laws, pay tithes, and don,t ba heratic

Impirium does not care if you have gay weddings, black, white, mega tyrant or a paradise garden utopia.
Long as the basic rules followed. They are happy.

Each planet can do as it likes as tmregard to local laws, and even to some degree how they venerate the emperor, just asking as they do so.

Ie space wolves use name allfather, others may have different names or customs, but again as long as all is "right" your good

I'd say that it's the most multicultural empire of the galaxy: the differences and the distances between the planets basically made it impossible to unit every culture in an only, unique one, even though they're partially achieving it. So, i'd say yes, the imperium does be a pulticultural empire despit of all.

The Imperium is surprisingly permissive and open-minded. It has to be. Trying to impose a monoculture on a galaxy-spanning empire of a million worlds would be an impossible task.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Imperium is extremely multicultural, but that does not change anything about it being a militaristic dictatorship. The Soviet Union was also very multicultural, yet also a militaristic dictatorship.

Less of a dictatorship and more of a feudal oligarchy. The High Lords are a council of peers from a variety of different and sometimes contradictory organizations. When Goge Vandire tried to set up an actual dictatorship everyone else in the Imperium took that rather poorly and there where reforms after it to prevent it.

I suppose one could consider the Emperor to be an absolute ruler, but he is effectively a de factor figurehead after the Heresy.

Multicultural...of human cultures sure, but its intolerant of thousands of other cultures.

Calling that the height of multiculturalism would be like having a Nazi Regime which tolerated numerous differing Germanic traditions but eradicated all other life and then calling themselves 'multicultural'. It would be a technically correct assessment but, given the context of the environment, would also be an outright deception since its criteria for 'culture' have been created to exclude anything not already included within it. In other words its already rigged its own answer in its own favor.

Not to mention for all this vaunted openness I can hardly think of ten transsexual, homosexual or gender-fluid individuals, not to mention Cryptus System has nobles using 'pleasure servitors' meaning that slavery, both labour and sexual, are still permissible. Not to mention the Imperium is rife with enormous class discrimination, most likely the prevalent form of intra-Imperium discrimination, with lower classes and the poor being maltreated, abused and killed en masse quite regularly, and the existence of numerous completely un-meritocratic aristocracies.

There's also the fact that certain institutions, such as the Schola Progenium in the latest fluff, have distinctly gendered separations of potential employment.

If you draw the lines for what multicultural means to be; "What the Imperium already has" then of course the answer you'll receive is yes.

In reality the Imperium is only a human multicultural society which does not permit any ideology or religion not sanctioned by the state.

Also calling the Imperium liberal is just...a gross abuse of comparison. Like calling a mass murderer 'noble' because he killed less people than some other person.

 Anemone wrote:
Multicultural...of human cultures sure, but its intolerant of thousands of other cultures.

Calling that the height of multiculturalism would be like having a Nazi Regime which tolerated numerous differing Germanic traditions but eradicated all other life and then calling themselves 'multicultural'. It would be a technically correct assessment but, given the context of the environment, would also be an outright deception since its criteria for 'culture' have been created to exclude anything not already included within it. In other words its already rigged its own answer in its own favor.

Not to mention for all this vaunted openness I can hardly think of ten transsexual, homosexual or gender-fluid individuals, not to mention Cryptus System has nobles using 'pleasure servitors' meaning that slavery, both labour and sexual, are still permissible. Not to mention the Imperium is rife with enormous class discrimination, most likely the prevalent form of intra-Imperium discrimination, with lower classes and the poor being maltreated, abused and killed en masse quite regularly, and the existence of numerous completely un-meritocratic aristocracies.

There's also the fact that certain institutions, such as the Schola Progenium in the latest fluff, have distinctly gendered separations of potential employment.

If you draw the lines for what multicultural means to be; "What the Imperium already has" then of course the answer you'll receive is yes.

In reality the Imperium is only a human multicultural society which does not permit any ideology or religion not sanctioned by the state.

Also calling the Imperium liberal is just...a gross abuse of comparison. Like calling a mass murderer 'noble' because he killed less people than some other person.

Being multicultural means accepting and tolerating several different cultures within a state (as opposed to monocultural nation-states). It means nothing more than that. So yes, a Nazi empire including numerous different Germanic cultures (like German, Dutch, Swedish etc.) would be multicultural even if it is extremely intolerant towards non-Germanic cultures. Being multicultural means including and being tolerant towards more than one culture. It does not neccessarily mean being tolerant towards all cultures.
Slavery, class and gender issues are completely unrelated issues, which you seem to be mixing up.

Also, since culture is a human concept, it is debatable whether it is possible for aliens to have culture. And if one concludes that they do, it is debatable whether that would constitute cultural racism for forcing human concepts on non-human species.

@Iron_Captain: There are a lot of problems with the rational argumentation of the above post so I'm going to attempt to deal with them step-by-step;

Being multicultural means accepting and tolerating several different cultures within a state (as opposed to monocultural nation-states). It means nothing more than that. So yes, a Nazi empire including numerous different Germanic cultures (like German, Dutch, Swedish etc.)

It actually means a lot more than that since it is a nebulous highly contentious term with no agreed upon universal definition, policies with greatly differing goals and can range from promoting interculturalism to promoting cultural diversity or amalgamating cultural traditions together. The most consistent features of multiculturalism is that it tends to, in political discourse, focus on conceptions of ethnic or aboriginal cultural values, and their place within a legal state, or exist as a opposition to concepts of cultural subjugation or assimilation.

Calling a concept like multiculturalism 'simple' is a disservice to the voluminous works and discussion ongoing today concerning the topic. Very, very few intellectuals would define a state which practises a form of limited diversity within its sanction a 'multicultural state'.

The other problem with this definition of multiculturalism, as you are advancing it, is that by this definition only the absolute most stringent of regimes (no regime in human history indeed) would disqualify for it.

In other words, using this definition you are applying for multiculturalism, every faction in the Warhammer 40k game which is playable are multicultural since they, within themselves, contain internal differing cultural traditions. Indeed groups such as the Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks and Chaos Cultists (certain ones) are even more multicultural since they can possess internal cultures of differing traditions which do not require state sanction, a vital component for defining any multicultural state in legal terms.

Being multicultural means including and being tolerant towards more than one culture. It does not neccessarily mean being tolerant towards all cultures.

Again a definition of multicultural so wide as to render the term pointless. If tolerance to a single culture group automatically qualifies then the word has no meaning since, conceivably, all regimes are tolerant to at least one culture (themselves). Indeed even Tyranid are tolerant of their own culture.

Slavery, class and gender issues are completely unrelated issues, which you seem to be mixing up.

No they're connected to numerous points made in posts above in which individuals discussed the 'openness' and 'liberal' nature of the Imperium. Completely correlated to those points as a way of demonstrating them as deceptions.

Also, since culture is a human concept, it is debatable whether it is possible for aliens to have culture. And if one concludes that they do, it is debatable whether that would constitute cultural racism for forcing human concepts on non-human species.

Firstly; never go to any philosophical, anthropological or sociological gathering ever and open by saying 'culture is intrinsically human' since that has been a non-issue since the decision that rationality, or the ability to possess it, is key to human difference from other life forms encountered so far. Just starting with Immanuel Kant, a luminary of philosophy, so long as an entity, human or not, could possess any rational faculties akin to ours (or even exceeding ours since we do not know) they could just as easily as us have culture.

This last point is very weak under any form of rational scrutiny since you're working from an assumption no serious intellectual would have; 'culture is only applicable to humans' as opposed to the more logical assumption of; 'culture is applicable to rational agents, as of yet in real life we know of no rational agents other than humans but if we were to meet other rational agents then they are just as capable of possessing culture as us,'.

EDIT: This last point, indeed, is actually rather frightening since there is a precedent for this line of thinking; when settlers arrived to new lands the world over they would often bring with them an assumption that if they met different people that then, these people, were 'different' and thus the same 'rules' need not apply. Fortunately that has long ago been exposed to have no form of rational basis at all and relies completely on unfounded assumptions.

Still a pity all the endless death, slavery and despair it lead to can never be undone just because it can be demonstrated to be groundless, and its not like demonstrating something to be groundless has ever stopped people from it before. Just ask Manifest Destiny.

In the realm of 40k, none of that matters. As far as the Imperium is concerned, Mankind is the *only* culture/species that matters. Everything else is a Xeno Abomination that exists only to be purged.

In 40k, Mankind was once enslaved by Xenos Empires. Then, the Great Crusade happened and Ended those Xenos. Going forward, Mankind has learned to fear and hate the Xenos, and thus purges them when they are found and as they are able to. Thus, newly-seized worlds populated by Xenos cultures are eradicated to make way for the Imperium.

@Psiensis: No, in the realm of 40k none of that matters to you. Whether or not it matters for other individuals is literally beyond the scope of your abilities to determine. Also what the Imperium is 'concerned with' has no bearing on what is or what is moral, all states are 'concerned with' something, that doesn't make it right in anyway at all, it simply reflects their beliefs.

As for that other comment, irrelevant to a discussion concerning multiculturalism as it is, here's how it runs;

In reality thousands of different societies/civilizations/polities/cultures/ethnic groups have been enslaved by thousands of other societies/civilizations/polities/cultures/ethnic groups. Fortunately no-one in reality was ever so psychotic and mindlessly evil to use this as a justification for the eradication of any non-desirable group they ever encountered.

If we were to use the logic you are espousing then every human civilization in history would be determined to destroy every single other human civilization in history because all human polities, in the ebb and flow of history, are conquered/dominated/ravaged by other societies, and if this occurring once is justification sufficient to, from that point onward, follow a policy of eradication of all other societies/civilizations/polities/ethnic groups/cultures then it would be necessary for every human nation to be dedicated to the annihilation of all other human nations.

Fortunately in reality no-one is as mindlessly evil, and irrationally incapable of justifying their claims, as that.

I find it bit disingenuous to criticize the Imperium as being deceptive due to not tolerating Xenos culture. That's not really the point of the OP, nor would any sane man try to accommodate the culture of the Orks or Dark Eldar or Chaos. I don't think any of the posters here expect the Imperium to embrace Chaos culture or Ork culture.

Nobody is claiming that the Imperium is this liberal utopia, but it is more liberal than than one would think at first glance. It has to be, due to the staggering size and distance of a galaxy-spanning empire. It would be impossible to assert any form of monoculture into said empire. The High Lords don't really care about the individual cultures or societies of each planet as long as they:

1. Pay tithes.
2. Don't worship Chaos
3. Don't consort Chaos.

The Imperium could care less if the individual planet is a liberal democracy or a oppressive monarchy or whatever. Just as long as they maintain their basic duties to the Imperium.

 Anemone wrote:

Not to mention for all this vaunted openness I can hardly think of ten transsexual, homosexual or gender-fluid individuals,

That probably has more to due with the authors writing said background lore probably have no interest in writing it up in a sci-fi wargaming series. Especially since those subjects are often controversial in real life.

There is certainly nothing to suggest in-universe the Imperium as a whole has any sort of Anti-LGBT policies. Some planets might do, while others might not.

 Anemone wrote:

not to mention Cryptus System has nobles using 'pleasure servitors' meaning that slavery, both labour and sexual, are still permissible. Not to mention the Imperium is rife with enormous class discrimination, most likely the prevalent form of intra-Imperium discrimination, with lower classes and the poor being maltreated, abused and killed en masse quite regularly, and the existence of numerous completely un-meritocratic aristocracies.

Some planets do that. Others don't, like Tanith or Perlia. Some planets have cultures we would find reprehensible. Others we would find quite familiar and pleasant. others we might find primitive or bizarre.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Imperium is a shining beacon of social justice and equality for all, just that it is surprisingly permissive and open than one might think at first glance. Which is true. The Imperium is filled with immense variety and cultures.

You have the tattooed woodlanders of Tanith with hints of animistic gods existing alongside more formalized worship.

You have the Plain's World, which are essentially Native Americans in Space.

You have the crowed filthy hives of Necromunda.

You have the mundane and placid farming backwater of Jumael

You have the pious desert world of Tallarn, etc, etc.

That is essentially the point of the OP. On one world you might have primitive tribesmen who worship the Emperor as a sun totem. On another world you might have the planetary governor holding the planet in an oppressive dictatorship. On another planet you might find an prosperous democracy that only knows Terra as a distant authority thousands of lightyears away. On another world you might find a hive world ruled by a series of worker's councils. On another world you might find a matriarchal world who worships a local saint almost as much as they worship the Emperor...

I could go on, but I think I made my point. If you wish to view the Imperium like that, then I suppose that's your prerogative, but I rather find it to be quite narrow-minded.

@Gree:

I find it bit disingenuous to criticize the Imperium as being deceptive due to not tolerating Xenos culture.

Based on what rational argumentation? The Imperium is intolerant to alien cultures, fact, meaning that any claim of 'vaunted' multiculturalism of the Imperium ignores their absolute intolerance of any alien culture. That's a fact. You might not like it, but it is true.

If you wish to avoid the issue then be more specific; 'Human multiculturalism' referring specifically only to human cultures.

I don't think any of the posters here expect the Imperium to embrace Chaos culture or Ork culture.

Agreed, hence why they're largely irrelevant to this discussion

monoculture

Having plural cultures does not automatically make a state a 'liberal' state. The Imperium is definitively not liberal. It lacks virtually any basic aspects of a liberal society; from freedom of religion, ideology, free-thinking, lack of slavery. I must say I find the Imperium's attitude to sexual slavery particularly repugnant. So much for 'human dignity' when women can be bought, sold and used as chattel for the sexual pleasure of aristocrats.

The High Lords don't really care about the individual cultures or societies of each planet as long as they:

1. Pay tithes.
2. Don't worship Chaos
3. Don't consort Chaos.

They must also worship the Emperor in a way acceptable to the Imperium, practice no ideology not permitted by the Imperium (such as workers striking for higher pay who get gunned down), must not interact with any aliens, trade with aliens or not kill aliens.

There is far more to it than that.

Just as long as they maintain their basic duties to the Imperium.

Of course since said 'basic duty' means stamping out religious or ideological freedom, supporting only state sanctioned faiths and thought patterns, conscription and having to embrace total xenocide as a policy there's actually quite a bit to said 'basic duties'.

That probably has more to due with the authors writing said background lore probably have no interest in writing it up in a sci-fi wargaming series. Especially since those subjects are often controversial in real life.

This does not change the point. The lack of something in a story doesn't excuse it. If there Imperium is so tolerant and advanced in its treatment of these individuals and groups then I ask you to demonstrate to me in the canonical fluff where they are. If you cannot then it seriously calls into question your claims, after all if transsexual or gender-fluid individuals have such an easy time in the Imperium, why do they seemingly never enter into the higher ranks in any larger numbers?

There is certainly nothing to suggest in-universe the Imperium as a whole has any sort of Anti-LGBT policies. Some planets might do, while others might not.

This is again an argument that it might be happening 'off-screen' open to the same problems. It does not matter what things 'might be' like, what matters is what the canon presents.

Again, if the Imperium is so liberal towards these groups, demonstrate it to me using extensive textual evidence please.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Imperium is a shining beacon of social justice and equality for all

You'd be surprised...

just that it is surprisingly permissive and open than one might think at first glance

Not really, it has exactly the degree of plurality I'd expect from a repulsive, inhumane, genocidal regime which has to compromise due to its lack of resources at times.

 Anemone wrote:

Based on what rational argumentation? The Imperium is intolerant to alien cultures, fact, meaning that any claim of 'vaunted' multiculturalism of the Imperium ignores their absolute intolerance of any alien culture. That's a fact. You might not like it, but it is true.

Because, as stated in the OP, it's about multi- culturalism in a human context. Nobody else here was positing otherwise and I find it to be unnecessary nitpicking that rather misses the point of the thread.

Also, I wasn't making an argument. I was just stating my opinion on things. If people wish to disagree with me that that is their right as a fan of 40k. It matters little to me.

 Anemone wrote:

Having plural cultures does not automatically make a state a 'liberal' state. The Imperium is definitively not liberal. It lacks virtually any basic aspects of a liberal society; from freedom of religion, ideology, free-thinking, lack of slavery.

Liberal in the sense it's willing to accommodate other cultures. Some are bad to us, some are good to us.

 Anemone wrote:
I must say I find the Imperium's attitude to sexual slavery particularly repugnant. So much for 'human dignity' when women can be bought, sold and used as chattel for the sexual pleasure of aristocrats.

Certainly some planets do. Others don't. The Imperium (if it notices the affairs of a single planet) probably does not care either way.

 Anemone wrote:

They must also worship the Emperor in a way acceptable to the Imperium,

A distinction so broad to be almost meaningless. It's noted in the fluff that the Imperial religion had countless different variations and offshoots. The Ecclesiarchy tries to often subtle interpret local religions and faiths to be some form of Emperor worship. (Because direct conversion is often impractical on a galactic scale. Really, both Black Library and Fantasy Flight Games offer a very interesting look into the Imperial religions.

Really, most major religions on modern day earth could be construed or interpreted as some form of Emperor worship.

 Anemone wrote:
practice no ideology not permitted by the Imperium (such as workers striking for higher pay who get gunned down), s.

Some planets would certainly be like that. Others might treat that very different, or acquiescence. Planetary government differs between each planet for example.

I'm not sure the Imperium has any wide galactic policy on pay rates for workers, especially going across different planets, populations, cultures and local forms of currency that would all apply. Such a thing would be impossible to enforce.

 Anemone wrote:
must not interact with any aliens, trade with aliens or not kill aliens.

Ah, yes, my apologies. My third point should be ''don't consort with xenos'' rather than Chaos (as I had already pointed that out in my second point)

And considering the general temperments of xenos in this setting, an entirely sensible policy.

 Anemone wrote:

Of course since said 'basic duty' means stamping out religious or ideological freedom,

As I said, that can be quite broad.

Different planets have different Imperial cults and different ideologies. We see this don't we in the various supplementary material in Black Library or in FFG roleplay games, on the different cultures and governments that each world has.

I mean, even in individual organizations we have ideological variation. Questioning authority in the Space Wolves and Raptors is treated differently than it would be in the Novemarines or Ultramarines. Fellow Astartes probably have more in common with each other than a Valhallan and a Elysian.

 Anemone wrote:

, supporting only state sanctioned faiths and thought patterns,

Again, both so broad as to be meaningless, and impossible given the size of the galaxy.

I mean, we already see this in the supplementary material. The Tallarn have a different attitude towards Emperor worship than the Valhallans do. The Vostroyans have a local saint cult that is exclusive to them. The Tanith had their own animistic beliefs existing alongside their own brand of Emperor worship. The people of the Endymion cluster worship the Astartes in a primitive way. etc, etc, etc.

 Anemone wrote:

This does not change the point. The lack of something in a story doesn't excuse it. If there Imperium is so tolerant and advanced in its treatment of these individuals and groups then I ask you to demonstrate to me in the canonical fluff where they are.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think it's fairly obvious why said Black Library writers or Codex writers don't think that LGBT issues are particularly relevant in a wargaming series.

The Imperium being tolerate or advanced on those groups is also meaningless. (Although it's less ''tolerance'' and more ''apathetic''. After all, why should a galactic empire care about the sexual orientations of it's citizens?) That would more likely be dealt with the on the individual planet's level. It's rather hard to think that the High Lords care very much about an individual's sexual orientation when they have to rule a galactic empire.

But to answer your question, I believe an implied lesbian couple shows up in the Cain series as part of the 597th. Neither Cain or Kasteen make much comment on it either way.

 Anemone wrote:

If you cannot then it seriously calls into question your claims, after all if transsexual or gender-fluid individuals have such an easy time in the Imperium, why do they seemingly never enter into the higher ranks in any larger numbers?

I wasn't really making any claims, just pushing forth my opinion and interpretation of the setting, as well as trying to offer a helpful explanation. I do think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here. After all, we are discussing what amounts to background lore for plastic toy soldiers.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. This is the internet after all. Such things are commonplace.

There probably are such individuals in the Imperium, we just don't see them due to the written material covering an infinitesimally tiny portion of the ten thousand year history of a galactic empire. (Although I suppose one could interpret most high-ranking Magos of the Mechanicus as being gender-fluid, many being essentially brains in a metal body who would barely qualify as human, let alone as a man or a woman)

 Anemone wrote:

This is again an argument that it might be happening 'off-screen' open to the same problems. It does not matter what things 'might be' like, what matters is what the canon presents.

Well the canon doesn't really present it either way does it? There is no pieces of fluff stating that LGBT individuals are persecuted.

Well I suppose you can put forth supposition, but that's it, just supposition.

I mean, can you offer evidence? Like actually hard evidence and quotes? Not supposition based on the absence of something. Evidence of a galactic wide policy? Otherwise it's just supposition.

 Anemone wrote:

Again, if the Imperium is so liberal towards these groups, demonstrate it to me using extensive textual evidence please.

Less liberal and more ''apathetic on a grand scale".

And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

@Gree:

Because, as stated in the OP, it's about multi- culturalism in a human context. Nobody else here was positing otherwise and I find it to be unnecessary nitpicking that rather misses the point of the thread.

Also, I wasn't making an argument. I was just stating my opinion on things. If people wish to disagree with me that that is their right as a fan of 40k. It matters little to me.

But I believe it to be exactly important not to draw our categories in such a way as to affirm our own answers in a matter such as this, its important not to keep reducing what is necessary to define oneself as 'liberal' or 'multicultural' until it is so infinitesimal that it suits one's own needs. Anyone can fit any definition if one constantly refines the definition to suit the needs of the answer, however on a matter pertaining to the plurality of a polity such a method is deceptive, it is again akin to a Nazi group defining itself as open, pluralistic and liberal simply for tolerating differing Germanic tendencies, but annihilating all other.

Certainly some planets do. Others don't. The Imperium (if it notices the affairs of a single planet) probably does not care either way.

Precisely, as I said, the Imperium's attitude is repugnant, it tolerates and permits galactic sexual slavery (and regular slavery) of billions of innocent men and women. Billions of women are forced against their will to serve as objects for the amusement of Imperial Aristocrats, raped, and the system tolerates and permits this. That's the policy of the Imperial government.

As I said; repugnant.

A distinction so broad to be almost meaningless. It's noted in the fluff that the Imperial religion had countless different variations and offshoots. The Ecclesiarchy tries to often subtle interpret local religions and faiths to be some form of Emperor worship. (Because direct conversion is often impractical on a galactic scale. Really, both Black Library and Fantasy Flight Games offer a very interesting look into the Imperial religions.

Really, most major religions on modern day earth could be construed or interpreted as some form of Emperor worship.

It is not at all so broad to be meaningless; since countless planets are scoured of life in the setting for professing different faiths, not to mention what of agnostics and atheists? Or do they simply not count for this 'liberal system'? How can a system be open and pluralistic if it does not permit even something as simple as professing belief in a different faith to the one the state sanctions or professing no belief in any faith?

Some planets would certainly be like that. Others might treat that very different, or acquiescence. Planetary government differs between each planet for example.

I'm not sure the Imperium has any wide galactic policy on pay rates for workers, especially going across different planets, populations, cultures and local forms of currency that would all apply. Such a thing would be impossible to enforce.

Irrelevant; the fact remains that the Imperial government both permits and tolerates many hundreds of worlds which employ slave labour and allow nothing akin to unions or rights for their workers. There are several planets in fluff, many I can describe, which employ such methods, I have to be honest I cannot think of a single Imperial Planet I've read about described as a democracy with freedom of religion, thought and which permits worker's rights, unionization or anything approaching a comprehensive and impartial justice system.

Please give me an example of one of these worlds.

Again, both so broad as to be meaningless, and impossible given the size of the galaxy.

I mean, we already see this in the supplementary material. The Tallarn have a different attitude towards Emperor worship than the Valhallans do. The Vostroyans have a local saint cult that is exclusive to them. The Tanith had their own animistic beliefs existing alongside their own brand of Emperor worship. The people of the Endymion cluster worship the Astartes in a primitive way. etc, etc, etc.

They have differing outlooks on how you worship the Emperor, none of this changes that they all must worship the Emperor, they cannot choose to worship the Flying Spaghetti monster (expressly define him as a separate entity from the Emperor) nor can they express a desire or belief in no deity, nor can they choose to be agnostic and claim uncertainty, they must worship the Emperor.

Honestly I don't see how you're arguing for religious and ideological freedom in the Imperium, it's explicitly an organization with a broad state sanctioned religion and ideology which is intolerant of any subversion of these state sanctioned aspects.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think it's fairly obvious why said Black Library writers or Codex writers don't think that LGBT issues are particularly relevant in a wargaming series.

It doesn't matter 'why' they don't write it, it still remains that because they do not write it, it does not exist. If you want me to believe that the Imperium is an enormously progressive state with wonderful egalitarian treatment of LGBT then give me examples thereof. Otherwise the only evidence we can go on is how no-one of the LGBT groups seem to exist in their universe...a problem normally condemned by LGBT groups is exactly the lack of representation of individuals from said group within stories. After all no-one in thousands of stories is LGBT or expressly comments on LGBT groups, does this now automatically mean all those stories are progressive in their treatment of people from LGBT groups simply because they don't specifically condemn them? Is that your bar for 'progressive'?

Furthermore the argument that because none of this is expressly contradicted it means it cannot be criticized or doubted seems untenable to me, after all by this logic I could declare canon that Sapient Cheese Wheels rule the galaxy from the shadows since no-one ever expressly denies this fact.

I wasn't really making any claims, just pushing forth my opinion and interpretation of the setting, as well as trying to offer a helpful explanation. I do think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here. After all, we are discussing what amounts to background lore for plastic toy soldiers.

When the backstory of the setting involves real people expressing real admiration and desire to emulate child murderers, rapists and institutional slavery I do feel its important. I love playing 40k, I like the fluff, I play Sisters, but I never believe that what my in-story army does is 'right', 'liberal' or 'moral'.

But to answer your question, I believe an implied lesbian couple shows up in the Cain series as part of the 597th. Neither Cain or Kasteen make much comment on it either way.

Your only example is an implication of a lesbian couple among minor characters in a single Black Library novel? I doubt any person of LGBT would feel the Imperium has any representative aspect of their orientation, a pity since apparently its meant to be completely egalitarian in this regard, makes me wonder why more such individuals don't emerge among the High Lords or Imperial Guard Commanders if the society is so egalitarian.

 Anemone wrote:
Your only example is an implication of a lesbian couple among minor characters in a single Black Library novel? I doubt any person of LGBT would feel the Imperium has any representative aspect of their orientation, a pity since apparently its meant to be completely egalitarian in this regard, makes me wonder why more such individuals don't emerge among the High Lords or Imperial Guard Commanders if the society is so egalitarian.

On the other hand you don't really get much mention of heterosexual activities either. 40K is Grimdark Eternal War, not happy-go-lucky sexual encounters with enchanting representatives of whatever inclination someone would find plesant to meet. For the most part your sexual orientation is irrelevant to the IoM. Unless your planet has a severe drop in birth rates (making it harder to tithe IG regiments) no one is going to care about whether Munitorium Serf Bob fancies Serf Alice or Charlie.

 Anemone wrote:
@Gree:

But I believe it to be exactly important not to draw our categories in such a way as to affirm our own answers in a matter such as this, its important not to keep reducing what is necessary to define oneself as 'liberal' or 'multicultural' until it is so infinitesimal that it suits one's own needs. Anyone can fit any definition if one constantly refines the definition to suit the needs of the answer, however on a matter pertaining to the plurality of a polity such a method is deceptive, it is again akin to a Nazi group defining itself as open, pluralistic and liberal simply for tolerating differing Germanic tendencies, but annihilating all other.

If you want then take that stance, then that's your right.

I think it's a semantics and missing the point here.

 Anemone wrote:

Precisely, as I said, the Imperium's attitude is repugnant, it tolerates and permits galactic sexual slavery (and regular slavery) of billions of innocent men and women. Billions of women are forced against their will to serve as objects for the amusement of Imperial Aristocrats, raped, and the system tolerates and permits this. That's the policy of the Imperial government.

Well the attitude of the Cryptus system is certainly like that.. That's repugnant, but probably not of concern to the Imperium if they even notice at all. Other planets very likely would have different policies.

Tanith or Perlia probably doesn't have that.

 Anemone wrote:

It is not at all so broad to be meaningless; since countless planets are scoured of life in the setting for professing different faiths, not to mention what of agnostics and atheists?.

Can you provide example of planets scoured of life? Preferably with in-depth details and examples? After all, we have plenty of examples in the lore of the Imperial cult being rather lax in it's specific tenants.

I mean yeah, nobody is denying that outright denying the Emperor is probably not a good idea, but within that context the Imperium is remarkably permissive to the point where one could essentially worship almost anything as long as they added some lip service to the Emperor. It's semantic really.

 Anemone wrote:
Or do they simply not count for this 'liberal system'? How can a system be open and pluralistic if it does not permit even something as simple as professing belief in a different faith to the one the state sanctions or professing no belief in any faith?

You can be open and pluralistic to different degrees. You are assuming black and white extremes. The Imperium is not completely far right nor completely far left. It's a patchwork of things that often require compromise.

 Anemone wrote:

Irrelevant; the fact remains that the Imperial government both permits and tolerates many hundreds of worlds which employ slave labour and allow nothing akin to unions or rights for their workers. .

And you have many other planets which very much don't run that gauntlet. As I said, supreme apathy runs both ways.

 Anemone wrote:
I have to be honest I cannot think of a single Imperial Planet I've read about described as a democracy with freedom of religion, thought and which permits worker's rights, unionization or anything approaching a comprehensive and impartial justice system.

Please give me an example of one of these worlds.

Well, I can give you aspects of each.

(This is all purely from memory. I fI sat down and went trough my collection I could probably find more)

Pavonis apparently has a democratically elected governor.

Religion has multiple variations throughout the Imperium. That I've covered extensively.

Thought has been covered extensively. If there was no freedom of thought then the Space Wolves would have to adhere to the Codex Astartes, the Sons of Medusa would not be allowed to exist as they are, the Catachans would not be allowed to be individualistic (or any Guard regiment really) the Vostroyans would not be allowed their local practices and cults. If there was no freedeon of thought that every Astartes Chapter would be exactly identical and every one in the Imperium would be exactly identical, but that's not the case is it?

I mean, even the Inquisition has dozens of political factions.

If the Imperium truly had no freedom of thought that everything would be a single grey mass of people.

Beyond that in 40k, you very likely do have planets where everything is peaceful and democratic and fine. It's just that in most cases those planets probably aren't very exciting to write about. Thsi being a wargame and all.

 Anemone wrote:

They have differing outlooks on how you worship the Emperor, none of this changes that they all must worship the Emperor, they cannot choose to worship the Flying Spaghetti monster (expressly define him as a separate entity from the Emperor) nor can they express a desire or belief in no deity, nor can they choose to be agnostic and claim uncertainty, they must worship the Emperor.

Honestly I don't see how you're arguing for religious and ideological freedom in the Imperium, it's explicitly an organization with a broad state sanctioned religion and ideology which is intolerant of any subversion of these state sanctioned aspects.

Semantics really. The Imperium is tolerant of subversion, provided it follows a very vague and very basic tenant.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the Imperium allows complete freedom of religion. That would be nonsense in the constraints of the setting. But in that limits it's surprisingly flexible and open. One can pretty much worship anything as long as it's vaguely connected to the Emperor.

We have examples of the Emperor being worshiped as a sun totem, or merely the ultimate warrior, or an omnipotent god. Of course religion is one of the tenants of the Imperium. Nobody is claiming that the Imperium is shining beacon of liberal thought and social justice. But even in that there is a remarkable degree of flexibility. Worship to the Emperor is nothing more than a very broad and rather vague to be practically meaningless.

So in the ''Flying Spaghetti Monster" example would probably end up to be much the ''same difference'' to the local worshipers after a few generations of Ecclesiastical association. On many planets, Emperor-worship might be a polite lip service.

Of course it's not completely egalitarian or perfect, but nobody is really claiming that here. What it is, is that the Imperium is surprisingly open-minded and tolerant to an extent. Otherwise all those examples I freely provided would not exist.

(Although if you want to get into the differences of worship, most of the Astartes are technically atheists. They even have a special agreement with the Ecclisiarchy. The Mechanicus worship the Omnissiah, although what kind of relation that has to the Emperor is of much debate.)

 Anemone wrote:

It doesn't matter 'why' they don't write it, it still remains that because they do not write it, it does not exist. .

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Certainly Black Library writers have not written much on it, but that does not mean that they don't exist in the Imperium, or that they don't occupy high positions. Anything other than that is supposition.

 Anemone wrote:

If you want me to believe that the Imperium is an enormously progressive state with wonderful egalitarian treatment of LGBT then give me examples thereof.

Can you give examples otherwise? I mean, one cannot prove a negative, but I would be interesting in seeing examples of discrimination against LGBT groups in the Imperium. I mean actual evidence, not the absence of evidence.

Nobody is arguing that the Imperium is this greatly progressive state or shining ideal, just that it's remarkably so by the constraints of the setting.

 Anemone wrote:

Otherwise the only evidence we can go on is how no-one of the LGBT groups seem to exist in their universe...a problem normally condemned by LGBT groups is exactly the lack of representation of individuals from said group within stories. After all no-one in thousands of stories is LGBT or expressly comments on LGBT groups, does this now automatically mean all those stories are progressive in their treatment of people from LGBT groups simply because they don't specifically condemn them? Is that your bar for 'progressive'?

I think you are hastily jumping to conclusions here on some sort of perceived injustice.

I mean, you can criticize the Black Library authors for not including LGBT characters in their stories, but that's not the same as the Imperium's in-universe policy towards them now is it? Unless you have explicit examples otherwise?

 Anemone wrote:

Furthermore the argument that because none of this is expressly contradicted it means it cannot be criticized or doubted seems untenable to me, after all by this logic I could declare canon that Sapient Cheese Wheels rule the galaxy from the shadows since no-one ever expressly denies this fact.

Indeed, that would be your right as a poster and I would respect your opinion even if I disagree with it.

Though by that logic shouldn't it apply to you? After all, you keep on asking for examples while putting forth assertions of your own without any sort of examples behind it. Only the lack of evidence for the LGBT issue.

Can you put forth some examples of a galactic-wide anti-LGBT policy that isn't supposition from lack of evidence either way?

 Anemone wrote:

When the backstory of the setting involves real people expressing real admiration and desire to emulate child murderers, rapists and institutional slavery I do feel its important. I love playing 40k, I like the fluff, I play Sisters, but I never believe that what my in-story army does is 'right', 'liberal' or 'moral'.

If that's how you feel, then that's how you feel.

I must respectfully disagree and I think you are looking at a very complex and nuanced empire in very absolute terms. The Imperium is a patchwork of things that most often revolve on compromise and negotiation between different powers. It's not a situation of black and white morality and there is often a bunch of wiggle room. Nor do I think that the practices of one planet really reflect the rest of the Imperium or even necessarily it's central government.

For those examples in the Cryptus system you have a Tanith or a Pavonis. For every shrine world in the Imperium you have people like Cain who disdain ''Emperor-botherers'' and such.

I don't really think many people here are expressing ''admiration'' for the Imperium, rather merely remarking how it is. Which is true. The Imperium is remarkably open-minded and tolerant of things to an extent. It very much has to be, given it's extent.

Or are you perhaps denying that the Space Wolves eschew the Codex Astartes, Vostroyans worship local saints, or the planet of Acreage worships the Emperor as a Sky King? After all, those are things that certain differ from Imperial norm.

 Anemone wrote:

Your only example is an implication of a lesbian couple among minor characters in a single Black Library novel? I doubt any person of LGBT would feel the Imperium has any representative aspect of their orientation, a pity since apparently its meant to be completely egalitarian in this regard, makes me wonder why more such individuals don't emerge among the High Lords or Imperial Guard Commanders if the society is so egalitarian.

Well, so far it's more direct evidence than you've provided in this regard.

You are also putting forth a strawman. Nobody is arguing that the Imperium is completely egalitarian or a shining beacon of social justice, just that it's surprisingly flexible after first glance.

We don't even know the names of the High Lords, so who can say how many might be gay or gender-fluid? Countless billions of Guard commanders exist in the universe, but who can say how many are gay when only a few hundred at best have been detailed in the fluff?

supporting only state sanctioned faiths

Agreed. The one thing which can be said for them is that the ecclesiarchy seems to be a bit analogous to dark-ages christianity and/or the Roman state religion; it tends to go in and try to over-write the existing faith and plagiarize the best bits rather than trying to smash it down and re-build.

Which is why you get the Emperor revered as Sky-Father, a spirit in the sun, first amongst ancestor spirits, a straight-out-of-catholicism god, and umpty-ump other variations.

That's not the same as 'freedom of religion' - Certainly agnostic or atheist, however, is not acceptable, and the Imperium has non-trivial formal (Sororitas) and informal (Redemtionists, Frateris Militia, Confessors) forces who will take issue with anyone seen as diverging unacceptably from the party line.

Exactly what the line between "acceptable variation" and "unacceptable variation" in doctrine is the sort of thing agreed by Ministorum hierarchs, and - this being the Imperium - probably changes with no notice when a new Cardinal-Astral is installed, and throne help anyone now on the wrong side of the line.

That's the policy of the Imperial government.

At the risk of making light of a horrible subject, I'll quote Yes Minister.
"Government Policy? Do not suggest that for a moment! The idea is unthinkable! That could never be Government Policy. Only Government Practice."

The Imperium does not advocate slavery. But nor does it in any way lift a finger to prevent it. As long as you are not in violation of 'Lex Imperialis' - the Imperium's federal level law - the Imperium as an organisation doesn't care how corrupt, brutal, or kinky you are. It judges you soley on your competence, and its only real measure for competence is that you meet your tithes and external duties (Administratum, Militarum, Psykana and Ecclesiarchal) and your world is nice and stable such that the Imperium doesn't have to intervene to keep it orderly and secure.

The same is not, of course, true of individuals within it. Taking an example, the Recongregator faction of the Inquisition sees one of its main functions as eliminating imperial officials who are corrupt and abusive, and one of the stories in the Deathwatch collection Xenos Hunters is a radical inquisitor starting a planetary civil war to do just that, because the slave-holding, oppresive regime "did not deserve to survive".

At the same time, note that the recongregators are a radical faction - meaning seen by the bulk of the Inquisition as a bit wierd at best.

I have to be honest I cannot think of a single Imperial Planet I've read about described as a democracy with freedom of religion, thought and which permits worker's rights, unionization or anything approaching a comprehensive and impartial justice system.

Please give me an example of one of these worlds.

You definitely will not. There are no shortage of worlds mentioned in passing who are democratic to a greater or lesser extent (a couple of Caine novels, for example, mentioning election, and in one case re-election of planetary governors, as well as those which are inherited), but no matter how you select your planetary governor, if your proposed candidate is not acceptable to the imperium, tough.

Unionisation is not uncommon - trade guilds are mentioned in a lot of novels and are often quite influential (take the guild city mentioned in Phalanx, which is essentially an entire minor hive city built around the headquarters of the five most influential guilds)

Workers rights.....highly variable. Again, the Imperium has no base legal minimum rights applicable to anything but its own servants (i.e. the minimum treatment/resources an administratum cleric can expect from a world he's based on). It doesn't care how much said world as to exploit the hell out of its own citizens to meet said requirements.



No, the Imperium is not a nice place to live (mostly). But my one comment is that describing 'the Imperium' is much like describing 'the Inquisition' as if it was a monolithc entity - it's a meaningless task.

So much that matters to everyday citizens is delegated to individual worlds that a world can be a living hell, a near-paradise or anything in between, and the Imperium is too busy fighting off alligators to worry about the living standards of its people.

@Spetulhu: What are you talking about? There are far more heterosexual, explicitly so, couples in 40k than homosexual couples. I'm still waiting for evidence of a single explicit homosexual couple within 40k.

Based on what are you arguing that sexual orientation is irrelevant? If this were true why do we not see any homosexual, transgendered or gender-fluid individuals among the characters presented in Warhammer fluff?

This is equivalent to me watching the Star Wars Movies and then arguing that the movies are representative of LGBT individuals simply because no-one ever explicitly mentions them at all.

I mean you do realize that a large part of what groups supporting tolerance of LGBT rights try to do is promote positive reflection (which in Warhammer's case would mean just being treated as existing) in sources? The argument you're making here is; "No-one ever treats LGBT as something that exists in the universe, hence clearly everything is fine," when in reality we use a near exact opposite argument; "This setting does not have any representation of LGBT individuals at all despite rationally having the grounds to do so, it hence can be termed as excluding LGBT individuals and discussion."

Well the attitude of the Cryptus system is certainly like that.. That's repugnant, but probably not of concern to the Imperium if they even notice at all. Other planets very likely would have different policies.

Tanith or Perlia probably doesn't have that.

That changes nothing, that's equivalent to saying; "The Nazi's killed people in Dachau but not in Berlin, hence its fine," the Imperium is the government of all those worlds, meaning the practices it permits and tolerates on those worlds are its fault. Nothing you say changes that the Imperium is a government which both permits and tolerates sexual slavery (among many other travesties) and that for all this talk of 'liberal' attitude the fact remains that the Imperium remains a government which permits the constant and repeated rape of billions of women throughout the galaxy. It does not matter that in certain districts it does not occur, that does not change what the Government permits and tolerates. It is legal in the Imperium to practice sexual slavery.

Can you provide example of planets scoured of life? Preferably with in-depth details and examples? After all, we have plenty of examples in the lore of the Imperial cult being rather lax in it's specific tenants

I don't really see why I should have to provide an example of a world destroyed for religious reasons in the Imperium, you can search that easily, since you've yet to give me the textual source for a comprehensive homosexual couple prominent in the Imperium or a world which is a democratic body which provides worker's rights and an impartial justice system. Once you address that question of mine, which I gave before you, then I will respond to this question, but I'm not simply going to turn around and provide examples simply to change the topic.

I mean yeah, nobody is denying that outright denying the Emperor is probably not a good idea, but within that context the Imperium is remarkably permissive to the point where one could essentially worship almost anything as long as they added some lip service to the Emperor. It's semantic really.

Interesting, so you believe if a non-Astarte denied the Emperor's divinity they'd be fine?

Besides nothing you said changes my point; you still have to add lip service to the Emperor, meaning you're still curtailed by the state-sanctioned religion, you still do not have freedom of religion in any form, you cannot express faith in a deity other than the Emperor and you cannot express doubt or a lack of belief in the divinity of the Emperor. Honestly since you cannot dispute this point I fail to see how you argue that the Imperium provides freedom of religion, including atheism and agnosticism, when all you're saying is that the Imperium provides the freedom to interpret one faith in different ways.

Your argument here amounts to saying; "A Christian state which requires all citizens to express faith in the Christian God but allows them to freely choose whatever denomination they want, has religious freedom," completely ignoring the fact that any citizen within this polity has no right to select a faith other than the Christian God, be an atheist or agnostic. The Imperium is not liberal.

You can be open and pluralistic to different degrees. You are assuming black and white extremes. The Imperium is not completely far right nor completely far left. It's a patchwork of things that often require compromise.

No, I'm not assuming black and white, I'm simply pointing out that the Imperium is far to totalitarian to be called liberal and that attempts to dress it up as an 'open', 'free' and 'liberal' society of compassion are deceptive.

And you have many other planets which very much don't run that gauntlet. As I said, supreme apathy runs both ways.

This changes nothing, its equivalent to a slave-owning Empire going; "But in our capital we have no slaves, so there's really no problem, we just keep them working in the mines and plantations, not in our houses," does that sound liberal or compassionate to you? Your only defense seems to be that some places aren't practicing atrocities daily and then claiming that this automatically negates the atrocities being officially permitted and performed across the Imperium constantly;

Additionally, having read the fluff of 40k, I am very hard pressed to find any examples of these paradise-like democratic, compassionate and advanced planets you keep mentioning where no form of slavery or servitude exists and politics is free and impartial. My reading seems to suggest that all planets i read about in the fluff usually practice some form of slavery, including servitors who are lobotomized slaves, never have an impartial justice system and that's without even getting into the politics. The Imperium is not liberal.

Well, I can give you aspects of each.

That's not what I asked for, give me a planet which is as perfect as you are describing, if you are so certain they exist in the Imperium, show them to me please.

Pavonis apparently has a democratically elected governor.

Wasn't it ruled by virtual-hereditary industrial cartels which treated their employees very poorly? I'll admit my memory is hazy but you yourself seem uncertain of its democratic credentials considering your use of 'apparently'.

Religion has multiple variations throughout the Imperium.

Yes, multiple variations, multiple denominations, not actually multiple different religions or respect for atheists or agnostics. This is akin to saying a state which allows many denominations of one religion, but murders all practitioners of other religions, atheists or agnostic somehow has freedom of religion. It does not make sense.

Thought has been covered extensively. If there was no freedom of thought then the Space Wolves would have to adhere to the Codex Astartes, the Sons of Medusa would not be allowed to exist as they are, the Catachans would not be allowed to be individualistic (or any Guard regiment really) the Vostroyans would not be allowed their local practices and cults. If there was no freedeon of thought that every Astartes Chapter would be exactly identical and every one in the Imperium would be exactly identical, but that's not the case is it?

I mean, even the Inquisition has dozens of political factions

Differing political thought patterns do not equate freedom of thought; or otherwise both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were liberal intellectual societies simply because internal differences in thinking and opinion existed.

So in the ''Flying Spaghetti Monster" example would probably end up to be much the ''same difference'' to the local worshipers after a few generations of Ecclesiastical association. On many planets, Emperor-worship might be a polite lip service.

No it wouldn't; the locals desire to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (defined as an entity separate to the Emperor) and refuse to accept the Emperor as their deity, insist that it is the Flying Spaghetti Monster not the Emperor. They would all be killed for a failure to convert, as the Cannoness was doing on Lysios.

(Although if you want to get into the differences of worship, most of the Astartes are technically atheists. They even have a special agreement with the Ecclisiarchy. The Mechanicus worship the Omnissiah, although what kind of relation that has to the Emperor is of much debate.)

The Omnissiah does not count, officially the Mechanicus recognize the Emperor has the Omnissiah so it is again a matter of variation, denomination, not of a different religion. In fact you often seem to suggest that a different denomination is the same as a different religion.

The Astarte are a fine example, sure, but that's why I'm not discussing them.

Nobody is arguing that the Imperium is this greatly progressive state or shining ideal, just that it's remarkably so by the constraints of the setting.

Why is it remarkable by the setting? The Craftworld Eldar, Exodites, Tau, Nicassar, Kroot, Diasporex, Interex and many others don't practice sexual slavery or internal repression of differing faiths, why is it remarkable that the Imperium does these things other nations don't do?

I think you are hastily jumping to conclusions here on some sort of perceived injustice.

I mean, you can criticize the Black Library authors for not including LGBT characters in their stories, but that's not the same as the Imperium's in-universe policy towards them now is it? Unless you have explicit examples otherwise?

I'm sorry but I really have to clarify; is the argument you are making that, because LGBT characters never appear in any Warhammer story ever, that the Imperium is tolerant and accepting of LGBT individuals?

Indeed, that would be your right as a poster and I would respect your opinion even if I disagree with it.

But why would you disagree with it? You are already stating that simply because no explicit anti-LGBT discrimination is shown in the Imperium that it automatically is tolerant of them, since no explicit denial of the Consortium of Cheese Wheels is ever made how can you disagree with it under your own logic? By your logic you must now accept as canon any statement made which is not directly or explicitly denied.

I must respectfully disagree and I think you are looking at a very complex and nuanced empire in very absolute terms. The Imperium is a patchwork of things that most often revolve on compromise and negotiation between different powers. It's not a situation of black and white morality and there is often a bunch of wiggle room. Nor do I think that the practices of one planet really reflect the rest of the Imperium or even necessarily it's central government.

None of this changes that the Imperium is a government which practices and tolerates slavery, child slavery, sexual slavery, institutionalized slavery, institutionalized torture, collective punishment, corruption, a rigged justice system, a lack of political representation, worker's rights, child murder, mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, repression of political and religious freedoms and far more.

We don't even know the names of the High Lords, so who can say how many might be gay or gender-fluid? Countless billions of Guard commanders exist in the universe, but who can say how many are gay when only a few hundred at best have been detailed in the fluff?

So, again, to clarify your argument is; "Since we don't see LGBT characters there's no problem since we just happen to never see them but they are all off-screen being perfectly fine," do you understand how much this exact approach is used to justify the exclusion of any LGBT characters in stories? How much this is campaigned against since it is a tool which enables an individual to treat a segment of a population as not existing in a story and then 'justifying' it? It begins to seem like your goal is simply defending the Imperium as a utopia.

Interesting fact about the High Lords is that, of the twenty-six or so we know, only three have ever been anything but male. A lack of female representation too in this egalitarian and liberal society then.

@Iocarno24: I appreciate the Yes Minister joke, always loved that show, however I'd dispute it; Is it anywhere ever said the Imperium is opposed to slavery as a concept?

Interesting, so you believe if a non-Astarte denied the Emperor's divinity they'd be fine?

They actively do so in several sources. To quote the most extreme case; Bjorn the Fell-handed talking to an Inquisitor Lord at the time:

"Calling him a God is what started this bloody mess in the first place."

Is it anywhere ever said the Imperium is opposed to slavery as a concept?

Other than the Imperium's original goal of 'liberating and uniting the scattered worlds of man' (quote describing the theoretical purpose of the great crusade in Collected Visions), no. But that's the point I was trying to make; the Imperium is not opposed to slavery. Nor does it actively encourage it. What you do within the boundaries of your authority, they don't really care about as long as nothing forces them to take notice.

'Government policy' says that the Imperium is a united polity striving for the survival of humanity. Policy says the Inquisition is a unified body with the authority of the God-Emperor himself and that no-one would ever dream of disobeying them. Policy says a lot of things.

The Administratum is a bunch of bureaucrats. They would never, every say "go and brutally enslave a world, smash the economy into the bedrock and strip-mine every resource they have, then abandon the survivors once the world is no longer of use to us".

They'll write a report on possible ways to provide resources to sustain the Achillus crusade which will result in a world's ecosphere and lithosphere being as thouroughly ravaged as if a hive fleet had pulled in for a drive-thru buffet (taking an example from the RPGs). You won't use words like 'exploit', 'oppress' or 'enslave' because you don't.

The fact that your instructions on the new tithe levels essentially forced somone else to do that on your behalf is a different issue. They did that, not you, and the Administratum will happily reach for the hammer of the Arbites, or even the Ordos, if you can't meet their properly sanctioned and entirely fair tithe levels (this kind of crud is what kicked off the Badab War).

The only other example I can give is the whole 'penal world' thing; a lot of penal worlds (or other convict-systems like the space station in Soul Drinkers) are big on supplying slave labour to the Imperium. Savlar is the one whose name springs to mind due to the guard regiments.

However, in each case, they're always criminals used for slave labour - no matter how petty the crime (and 'being born a mutant is a legally recognised crime, unethical as that may be) - the Imperium on occasion being very exacting about this.

In the sould drinkers story mentioned above, the convict labour forces shipped through the station were sent along with information of what they'd been convicted of. Some of the records were clearly utter drivel (especially when the 'criminals' were children of original convicts born on penal worlds), but the administratum didn't care if the criminal conviction was believable, just that one existed.

Which, to me, implies an official policy that only a criminal can be treated as slave labour under normal policies, but that (as with a lot of government policies) no-one gives a feth about the truth as long as the paperwork looks right on a cursory inspection.

There are exceptions even to this; the original population of armageddon was rounded up, sterilized, and put into forced labour camps to rebuild the world before it was repopulated in the wake of Angron's invasion, but that was done under the orders of the Inquisition, to whom Administratum policy and even Imperial High Law is, at best, a series of vague guidlines.

Ok, setting aside the other stuff going on here, I think the 'Imperium is not Multicultural' argument has some legs.

The trick is, 'mono-cultural'/'multicultural' are descriptions of societies, and the Imperium is not really a society (at least; in the traditional sense). It's more a geopolitical entity*, that is made up of a large number of smaller distinct societies (be they the interplanetary 'Adepta' societies, or the societies of individual worlds).

Those myriad societies though, I would argue, are almost all 'mono-cultural' and not 'multicultural'.

Consider, a typical member of a modern day 'Multicultural' society is going to experience that multiculturalism in the form of foods from different cultures, regularly seeing art or media from cultures not their own, regularly seeing/interacting with practitioners of said alternative cultures, etc. However for a typical member of most Imperial Societies, they are only ever going to be dealing with the culture of their own world (or own 'Adepta'), which is likely global (given the characterisation of most Imperial Worlds as 'Worlds of Hats'). Even the worlds with less repressive-state controlled governments are not going to be awash in the people/food/media/ideas of other worlds, due to the generally isolating nature of Imperial space travel/traffic.

So, no, the 'Imperium' is not multicultural, it may contain a huge & diverse number of cultures, but that is not the same thing.

*am I using that right?

locarno24 wrote:

No, the Imperium is not a nice place to live (mostly). But my one comment is that describing 'the Imperium' is much like describing 'the Inquisition' as if it was a monolithc entity - it's a meaningless task.

So much that matters to everyday citizens is delegated to individual worlds that a world can be a living hell, a near-paradise or anything in between, and the Imperium is too busy fighting off alligators to worry about the living standards of its people.

I think this more or less sums up what my stance is on this matter.

The Imperium is not a monolithic or united entity, so I find it silly to criticize the Imperium for the actions of a certain segment of the population. It's akin to judging the Imperium based on how Tanith is goverened, or how the Salamanders treat people.

 Anemone wrote:

Nazi's killed people in Dachau but not in Berlin, hence its fine," the Imperium is the government of all those worlds, meaning the practices it permits and tolerates on those worlds are its fault.

Not at all. Hitler's government is far more centralized than the Imperium (Who frequently has entire sections of it going out of contact from Terra for decades, or even centuries). Many with their own wildly different cultures and beliefs (The Nazis mostly spoke the same language for the same part). The difference between someone in the Cryptus system and the planet Tanith is much, much greater than it is between Dachau and Berlin.

Nazi Germany was more or less a monolithic entity, whereas the Imperium really isn't a monolithic entity. So I find tarring the whole Imperium with the same brush to be a rather disingenuous thing.

A better comparison would be to looking at feudal Europe, but even that doesn't really really compare to the sheer mass and breadth of the Imperium. It would be impossible for the Imperium to enforce every single detail on every single local customs on every single world. Such a thing would be logistically impossible and ridiculous.

 Anemone wrote:

Nothing you say changes that the Imperium is a government which both permits and tolerates sexual slavery (among many other travesties) and that for all this talk of 'liberal' attitude the fact remains that the Imperium remains a government which permits the constant and repeated rape of billions of women throughout the galaxy. It does not matter that in certain districts it does not occur, that does not change what the Government permits and tolerates. It is legal in the Imperium to practice sexual slavery.
ept?

It is legal on some parts of the Imperium to do that. That fact that it happens is irrelevant when discussing the larger Imperium due to the sheer size and diversity of it that makes it impossible to standardize any sort of thing. As I've said above, I don't necessarily find the Imperium's central government to be at fault for that sort of thing.

And may I have some sort of quote or passage from the relevant text on the "pleasure servitors''? I'm curious to see the exact context. Is it ever specified that they are sex slaves or is that your assumption?

 Anemone wrote:

I don't really see why I should have to provide an example of a world destroyed for religious reasons in the Imperium, you can search that easily, since you've yet to give me the textual source for a comprehensive homosexual couple prominent in the Imperium or a world which is a democratic body which provides worker's rights and an impartial justice system. Once you address that question of mine, which I gave before you, then I will respond to this question, but I'm not simply going to turn around and provide examples simply to change the topic.
ept?

Why not? You made the claim first and I'm not required to prove a negative. Absence of evidence of not evidence of absence.

Never mind I already addressed your strawman example and you chose to ignore it.

After all, that is quite the double standard you have going here. I'm not certain what prevents you from posting your evidence to support your claims as I put out some of the exmaples I've read. I mean, I'm not making an argument, but if you are then logically the burden of proof would fall upon you to support your claims.

Nor do I consider it changing the topic at all. After all, I'm just asking you to provide evidence you claimed in your very first post.

 Anemone wrote:

Interesting, so you believe if a non-Astarte denied the Emperor's divinity they'd be fine?

No, I don't think anyone is claiming that.

 Anemone wrote:

Besides nothing you said changes my point; you still have to add lip service to the Emperor, meaning you're still curtailed by the state-sanctioned religion, you still do not have freedom of religion in any form, you cannot express faith in a deity other than the Emperor and you cannot express doubt or a lack of belief in the divinity of the Emperor. Honestly since you cannot dispute this point I fail to see how you argue that the Imperium provides freedom of religion, including atheism and agnosticism, when all you're saying is that the Imperium provides the freedom to interpret one faith in different ways.

I'm not arguing about anything. Just stating my interpretation of the setting. One is unlikely to convince someone to change their opinion on the internet. Such things are in my experiance, a fruitless waste of time. Hence why I'm just offering my opinions of things.

I don't think anybody here is arguing complete freedom of religion, just that the Imperial religion itself is very flexible on it's exact tenants.

 Anemone wrote:

Your argument here amounts to saying; "A Christian state which requires all citizens to express faith in the Christian God but allows them to freely choose whatever denomination they want, has religious freedom," completely ignoring the fact that any citizen within this polity has no right to select a faith other than the Christian God, be an atheist or agnostic. The Imperium is not liberal.

Again, I'm not arguing. I'm just stating my opinion of the setting.

I do certainly consider the Imperium to be liberal in the sense it's flexible and open towards denomination of it's own religion.

 Anemone wrote:

No, I'm not assuming black and white, I'm simply pointing out that the Imperium is far to totalitarian to be called liberal and that attempts to dress it up as an 'open', 'free' and 'liberal' society of compassion are deceptive.

No, I think you are assuming things in black and white, which is why you are treating the Imperium as some monolithic united entity.

I mean, if you feel it's far too totalitarian, then that's fine. That's your right a a poster. I really don't see it that way and I think it's ignoring the vast diversity and complexity of the Imperium.

Nor is anyone arguing that the Imperium is this open and free society. That's a strawman you are putting out.

 Anemone wrote:

This changes nothing, its equivalent to a slave-owning Empire going; "But in our capital we have no slaves, so there's really no problem, we just keep them working in the mines and plantations, not in our houses," does that sound liberal or compassionate to you?

In terms of allowing what each planet does? Yes in the sense that ''each planet generally has it's own practices and values". That is after all a product of the setting. The Imperium probably can't make sure each and every single planet follows the exact economic and cultural practices.

 Anemone wrote:

Additionally, having read the fluff of 40k, I am very hard pressed to find any examples of these paradise-like democratic, compassionate and advanced planets you keep mentioning where no form of slavery or servitude exists and politics is free and impartial.

Where do I keep on mentioning these planets?

I mean, I can keep on putting out examples of the cultural and societal diversity, but I'm not putting forth your strawman if that's what your asking.

 Anemone wrote:

My reading seems to suggest that all planets i read about in the fluff usually practice some form of slavery, including servitors who are lobotomized slaves, never have an impartial justice system and that's without even getting into the politics. The Imperium is not liberal.

If that's how you interpret the setting, then that is your right. That certainly isn't my reading of things.

I don't necessarily consider servitors to be slaves actually. the exact practice of servitors differs between worlds. Some are vat-grown, others are noted to be condemned criminals, others failed aspirants. I don't doubt some planets probably employ servitors like that, but others are probably just grown meat-sacks or a capital punishment for criminals.

 Anemone wrote:

That's not what I asked for, give me a planet which is as perfect as you are describing, if you are so certain they exist in the Imperium, show them to me please.

I don't think I ever claimed that life in the Imperium is perfect. Obviously if you set up a strawman I'm not obligated to find it for you, especially given I never really claimed anything like that.

 Anemone wrote:

Wasn't it ruled by virtual-hereditary industrial cartels which treated their employees very poorly? I'll admit my memory is hazy but you yourself seem uncertain of its democratic credentials considering your use of 'apparently'.

It's been a while since I've read it, but I do recall they had some sort of assembly or parliament.

Otherwise I would probably just point to locarno24's post on the Imperium's government.

 Anemone wrote:

Yes, multiple variations, multiple denominations, not actually multiple different religions or respect for atheists or agnostics. This is akin to saying a state which allows many denominations of one religion, but murders all practitioners of other religions, atheists or agnostic somehow has freedom of religion. It does not make sense.

Nobody is arguing that the Imperium has complete freedom of religion, as I've said before, just that it is remarkably liberal and flexible with what it currently has.

 Anemone wrote:

Differing political thought patterns do not equate freedom of thought; or otherwise both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were liberal intellectual societies simply because internal differences in thinking and opinion existed.

Ah, so some difference of thought does indeed exist then. It's not just a grey faceless mass then.

And what about all the cultural and differing belief practices that greatly differ to Imperium norm then? Like the Space Wolves and the Catachans.

 Anemone wrote:

No it wouldn't; the locals desire to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (defined as an entity separate to the Emperor) and refuse to accept the Emperor as their deity, insist that it is the Flying Spaghetti Monster not the Emperor. They would all be killed for a failure to convert, as the Cannoness was doing on Lysios.

On some planets maybe. On others it might very well be like that. The lore mentions that the Ecclisiarchy likes to subvert local religions and identify them with the Emperor.

 Anemone wrote:

Why is it remarkable by the setting? The Craftworld Eldar, Exodites, Tau, Nicassar, Kroot, Diasporex, Interex and many others don't practice sexual slavery or internal repression of differing faiths, why is it remarkable that the Imperium does these things other nations don't do??

The Disporex and Interex are 30k so I'm fine with dismissing them as an example.

Can you prove that the Kroot or Nicassar don't do those things?

The Tau certainly do that. Or at the very least in more recent fluff. The Damocles anthology for example has humans forced to take on Tau names and culture. Tau are expressedly forbidded to any cross-caste activity or beliefs to the extent that the Tau drag away and kill those who believe that. (One Water Caste representative very much worries about that). I suppose the Craftworld Eldar are ore egalitarian than the planets of the Cryptus system, but comparing that to the vastness of the Imperium is largely meaningless.

You might as well compare Commander Farsight's morality to Gregor Eisenhorn as a judgement of the Inquisition or Eldrad to Ciaphas Cain as a judgement of the entire Imperial Guard.

 Anemone wrote:

I'm sorry but I really have to clarify; is the argument you are making that, because LGBT characters never appear in any Warhammer story ever, that the Imperium is tolerant and accepting of LGBT individuals?

I'm not making an argument, just stating my view of things.

I'm not arguing that either (Though I certainly take that as my interpretation of the setting). We simply don't know either way, which is why I find it odd people jump to conclusions.

 Anemone wrote:

But why would you disagree with it? You are already stating that simply because no explicit anti-LGBT discrimination is shown in the Imperium that it automatically is tolerant of them, since no explicit denial of the Consortium of Cheese Wheels is ever made how can you disagree with it under your own logic? By your logic you must now accept as canon any statement made which is not directly or explicitly denied.

Why would I have to accept it? The 40k setting is all about interpretation, opinions and heresay. 40k ''canon'' is incredibly contradictory and subjective even at the best of times. (For example, how the details of the Horus Heresy changed greatly compared to the Index Astartes and the Horus Heresy novel series)

If I wanted to, I could ignore Black Library as being non-canon or regard Leviathan and Exterminatus as being non-canon. I'm fine if other people do likewise. You might find this surprising, but I'm fine with people having different opinions and interpretations than me.

 Anemone wrote:

None of this changes that the Imperium is a government which practices and tolerates slavery, child slavery, sexual slavery, institutionalized slavery, institutionalized torture, collective punishment, corruption, a rigged justice system, a lack of political representation, worker's rights, child murder, mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, repression of political and religious freedoms and far more.

Certainly some planets in the Imperium practice that. That's not the same to varying degrees in the rest of the Imperium. The Imperium isn't really a monolithic entity like that.

 Anemone wrote:

So, again, to clarify your argument is; "Since we don't see LGBT characters there's no problem since we just happen to never see them but they are all off-screen being perfectly fine," do you understand how much this exact approach is used to justify the exclusion of any LGBT characters in stories?

I'm not making an argument, just positing my view on the setting.

 Anemone wrote:

How much this is campaigned against since it is a tool which enables an individual to treat a segment of a population as not existing in a story and then 'justifying' it? It begins to seem like your goal is simply defending the Imperium as a utopia.

I don't think I ever claimed the Imperium is a utopia. That's your strawman. I'm never entirely certain what in-universe treatment of individuals necessarily has to do with the out-universe way authors write it.

 Anemone wrote:

Interesting fact about the High Lords is that, of the twenty-six or so we know, only three have ever been anything but male. A lack of female representation too in this egalitarian and liberal society then.

How do you know they started life as male? They might be transgender for all we know.

And nobody here is claiming that the Imperium is necessarily egalitarian or liberal. That's a strawman.

@Iocarno24: I specifically said a non-Astarte denying the divinity of the Emperor, to my knowledge Bjorn is an Astarte.

Also I don't see anywhere in your answer a section in which the Imperium expresses any explicit opposition to slavery. Indeed the government tolerates it on hundreds of planets so it is clearly not illegal in the same way consorting with aliens, practising a religion other than the Emperor's or rejecting religion is.

The Imperium permits slavery but does not permit atheism or agnosticism. Fact. And of course the central government must be held liable for the policies it permits. If the Imperium were shown to crush slavery and it only existed illegally I'd be inclined to agree with you, but clearly that's not how they feel at all.

@Pendix: Actually I hadn't thought of that at all, but it is a good point, any Multiculturalism exists predominately in a culturally exclusive bubble.

@Gree:

I think this more or less sums up what my stance is on this matter.

The Imperium is not a monolithic or united entity, so I find it silly to criticize the Imperium for the actions of a certain segment of the population. It's akin to judging the Imperium based on how Tanith is goverened, or how the Salamanders treat people.

But Iocarno does express a judgement here; that the Imperium is not a nice place to live.

Putting that aside; of course you judge a government by the actions taken by its membership. All governments are judged by what their officials and military branches do. What else would you judge a government by?

Nazi Germany was more or less a monolithic entity, whereas the Imperium really isn't a monolithic entity. So I find tarring the whole Imperium with the same brush to be a rather disingenuous thing.

So your argument is the Imperium is simply sui generis and can't be discussed? Also Nazism was not monolithic, that'd be like describing the Soviet Union as monolithic, an outdated way of thinking of historical events to simplify them, all nations are highly complex working entities, they are never monolithic.

It is legal on some parts of the Imperium to do that. That fact that it happens is irrelevant when discussing the larger Imperium due to the sheer size and diversity of it that makes it impossible to standardize any sort of thing. As I've said above, I don't necessarily find the Imperium's central government to be at fault for that sort of thing.

It is legal, that's all that matters, this means that it is legal to practice both sex slavery and regular slavery in the Imperium. You might be fine with that but I definitely would not approve of a government which condones and tolerates the sexual slavery of women.

Honestly what would you find the Imperium's central government liable for then? You seem to absolve them of everything? If nothing's their fault then what do they do?

And may I have some sort of quote or passage from the relevant text on the "pleasure servitors''? I'm curious to see the exact context. Is it ever specified that they are sex slaves or is that your assumption?

In the Shield of Baal the head of the Flavian Dynasty has a 'female slave-servitor' clad in porcelain who serves him 'willowy nymph' decanters of alcohol and acts as a tv screen for him.

Nor do I consider it changing the topic at all. After all, I'm just asking you to provide evidence you claimed in your very first post.

When you offer the evidence to the questions I asked prior I shall do so.

One is unlikely to convince someone to change their opinion on the internet. Such things are in my experiance, a fruitless waste of time.

This I agree with completely

I do certainly consider the Imperium to be liberal in the sense it's flexible and open towards denomination of it's own religion.

So that's your definition of liberal? So by your definition the Nazi's were liberal as they were open to multiple denominations of the Christian religion?

Nor is anyone arguing that the Imperium is this open and free society.

Then what are you arguing?

In terms of allowing what each planet does? Yes in the sense that ''each planet generally has it's own practices and values". That is after all a product of the setting. The Imperium probably can't make sure each and every single planet follows the exact economic and cultural practices.

None of this addresses the point I made; the Imperium permits slavery, some places in the Imperium don't practice slavery, but that does not change that the Imperium permits slavery and tolerates it with no opposition. Again does that sound liberal or compassionate to you?

Where do I keep on mentioning these planets?

When you keep mentioning democratic planets, if the Imperium has these enlightened democratic worlds I want to read about them

I don't necessarily consider servitors to be slaves actually.

What?

Some are vat-grown

So growing a slave race is absolutely moral in your opinion?

Otherwise I would probably just point to locarno24's post on the Imperium's government.

In which he mentions how brutal it is and never describes it as 'liberal', 'open' or 'compassionate'. Well if that's what you're saying then I agree completely and am glad we've arrived at the same point

complete freedom of religion

It doesn't have freedom of religion, it has a single state-sanctioned faith and ideology which you must adhere to on pain of death.

just that it is remarkably liberal and flexible with what it currently has.

What is remarkable about it?

Ah, so some difference of thought does indeed exist then. It's not just a grey faceless mass then.

And what about all the cultural and differing belief practices that greatly differ to Imperium norm then? Like the Space Wolves and the Catachans.

Now you are creating strawmen.

As for the second point; as I said earlier that is an example of intra-Imperium cultures, so then be specific and state the Imperium is only, to an extent, human multicultural. I said earlier already that it is acceptable, but then be specific and not deceptive.

On some planets maybe. On others it might very well be like that. The lore mentions that the Ecclisiarchy likes to subvert local religions and identify them with the Emperor.

Precisely, subvert, the people would still not be allowed to worship the religion they wanted to; the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a distinct deity from the Emperor, no relation between them at all.

Honestly since you've already accepted there isn't freedom of religion in the Imperium, only variation of a single dominant mono-faith, I'm not sure why you're still arguing this point.

Regardless the fact remains; your point simply underlines the message that people are not permitted to worship the religion they wish too if they wish too have a religion separate to worshiping the Emperor.

Can you prove that the Kroot or Nicassar don't do those things?

Can you prove that they do? You seem to be quite taken with the idea that if something is not explicitly stated it must not be true.

Additionally the evidence I'd use is how neither the Kroot or Nicassar have ever sought to compel the Tau to embrace their faiths and ideologies, or how the Kroot maintain their own ideology within the Tau Empire and do not assimilate or force upon others their views.

The Tau certainly do that. Or at the very least in more recent fluff. The Damocles anthology for example has humans forced to take on Tau names and culture. Tau are expressedly forbidded to any cross-caste activity or beliefs to the extent that the Tau drag away and kill those who believe that. (One Water Caste representative very much worries about that).

I'd agree that the Tau's Caste system is there most repressive aspect by far, in many ways the Tau Empire is most repressive of their own species, since they allow all member species to continue practicing any religions or cultural traditions they want, including worship of the Emperor if they want to in Skilltaker.

I suppose the Craftworld Eldar are ore egalitarian than the planets of the Cryptus system, but comparing that to the vastness of the Imperium is largely meaningless.

Alright then; which part of the Imperium are the Craftworld Eldar or Imperium less egalitarian than then?

You might as well compare Commander Farsight's morality to Gregor Eisenhorn as a judgement of the Inquisition or Eldrad to Ciaphas Cain as a judgement of the entire Imperial Guard.

Why not? In a story how else, other than using characters, do you make judgements?

You seem to be indicating you just think we can't say anything about the matter at all.

(Though I certainly take that as my interpretation of the setting).

So do you always then assume if a story doesn't have reference to LGBT individuals within it that it has a progressive and enlightened attitude of tolerance to them? You don't consider the problem of exclusion by treating them as not existing at all?

Why would I have to accept it? The 40k setting is all about interpretation, opinions and heresay. 40k ''canon'' is incredibly contradictory and subjective even at the best of times. (For example, how the details of the Horus Heresy changed greatly compared to the Index Astartes and the Horus Heresy novel series)

If I wanted to, I could ignore Black Library as being non-canon or regard Leviathan and Exterminatus as being non-canon. I'm fine if other people do likewise. You might find this surprising, but I'm fine with people having different opinions and interpretations than me.

So there is honestly then no point to discussion with you since your position amounts to; "believe what you want and its canon,"?

I'm never entirely certain what in-universe treatment of individuals necessarily has to do with the out-universe way authors write it.

What?

How do you know they started life as male? They might be transgender for all we know.

Your argument is that because we don't know the full bio of each High Lord of Terra we should just assume any of them could be transgender? Why do none of them identify as women then? Or as Intersex? Why do they all identify as men?

And nobody here is claiming that the Imperium is necessarily egalitarian or liberal.

Haven't you called the Imperium 'liberal' three times now?

The Imperium is multicultural, that is a fact. It dosen't matter what you culture is, as long as A) you're worshipping the Emperor and B) you're not a Chaos scum.

@Xathrodox: The Imperium is 'Human multicultural' is a fact. What qualifies for a 'Multicultural' society is a very subjective measure.

Additionally there are more requirements then the ones you listed. Additional requirements include;

-Not being an alien
-Not consorting with aliens
-Not being unwilling to murder any alien man, woman, child or entity you ever encounter
-Surrendering of technological development and maintenance to the system of the Mechanicus
-Providing the required Tithe

These are all major socio-political conditions and not simply small and simple requirements, in reality these are enormous resource and political demands upon states. Simply dismissing them as minor isn't very accurate to how much an impact on a society such requirements would have.

If your culture doesn't include these requirements, as well as the two you mentioned before, then it will be forcibly compelled to comply to them once possible.

Does the monoculture thing come from most of the models being painted as white or something? Being as vast as it is it would be impossible to be monocultured, yet these threads show up all the time still.

Models and artwork. But it's also a cycle. The artwork is designed to look as close to the models as possible, and then people use the artwork as a reference for painting the models, so we don't see the level of variation that we know exists, as represented in FFG and BL publications.

 Anemone wrote:

But Iocarno does express a judgement here; that the Imperium is not a nice place to live.

Hence my more or less part. I do disagree with him on that.

We see this don't we? Supplementary material has their share of nice pastoral worlds or quiet civilized places that don't soom too different from modern 20th century earth. I certainly would't mind living on Perlia or Thracian for example.

 Anemone wrote:

Putting that aside; of course you judge a government by the actions taken by its membership. All governments are judged by what their officials and military branches do. What else would you judge a government by?

Oh, I can judge it. I just find that portion of the Imperium to be rather insignificant compared to the grand scheme of things.

 Anemone wrote:

So your argument is the Imperium is simply sui generis and can't be discussed? Also Nazism was not monolithic, that'd be like describing the Soviet Union as monolithic, an outdated way of thinking of historical events to simplify them, all nations are highly complex working entities, they are never monolithic.

Once again, I'm not making an argument. I'm just stating my personal opinion on the setting. You seem to be under the strange impression that I am.

And yes, I do consider the Imperium vastly different. The size, technology and cultures of the Imperium is vastly different than a single planet bound nation. By the nature of a galactic empire it inherently is.

 Anemone wrote:

It is legal, that's all that matters, this means that it is legal to practice both sex slavery and regular slavery in the Imperium.

It's legal in Cryptus yes. How much that means in the wider Imperium is irrelevant. You might have another planet where slavery is illegal. Does that mean that slavery in the Imperium is now illegal?

 Anemone wrote:

Honestly what would you find the Imperium's central government liable for then? You seem to absolve them of everything? If nothing's their fault then what do they do?

I would place liability for the actual galaxy-spanning decisions the High Lords do. Anything else would be at at a case by case basis given the various levels of technology and culture on each individual nation.

For example, I would find it silly to hold the central government of the Imperium responsible for the local government policies of a distant backwater planet ten thousand light years away that hasn't had contact with the Imperium in over two centuries.

 Anemone wrote:

In the Shield of Baal the head of the Flavian Dynasty has a 'female slave-servitor' clad in porcelain who serves him 'willowy nymph' decanters of alcohol and acts as a tv screen for him.

Okay, where does it say she is a sex slave? So far it seems pretty mundane to me.

 Anemone wrote:

When you offer the evidence to the questions I asked prior I shall do so.

How convenient for you. Despite making said claims first you don't have to provide evidence for them.

 Anemone wrote:

This I agree with completely

Than why exactly are you bothering to reply?

I would say at this point neither of us is going to budge on the issue, so why not agree to disagree then? Unless you wish to argue into ad nauseam.

 Anemone wrote:

So that's your definition of liberal? So by your definition the Nazi's were liberal as they were open to multiple denominations of the Christian religion?

As I said before, liberal by comparison.

The Imperium very much could try to enforce a strict code of religion and protocols on each world. They don't. The Imperial religion and government is fairly flexible for a galactic empire worshiping a god-emperor. It has to be.

That's why you have a variety of cultures and governments. That's why you have a dizzying array of different Imperial cults and beliefs.

 Anemone wrote:

None of this addresses the point I made; the Imperium permits slavery, some places in the Imperium don't practice slavery, but that does not change that the Imperium permits slavery and tolerates it with no opposition. Again does that sound liberal or compassionate to you?

Some planets permit slavery. That very much means little in the wider scheme of things

The Imperium doesn't really care about local laws as long as they follow some very broad guidelines about tithes, the Emperor and suchlike.

The slavery it itself doesn't seem liberal, but the practice of generally having an apathetic hand? Yes, I consider that fairly liberal.

 Anemone wrote:

When you keep mentioning democratic planets, if the Imperium has these enlightened democratic worlds I want to read about them

I never claimed where where worlds with the exact set of specifications which you demanded to see in your strawman.

I mean, I can point out to locarno24's post. Some planets do have democracies. Some have trade unions. Others have more relaxed systems of goverment. Not many have the very narrow set of liberal guidelines that you demand.

 Anemone wrote:

What?

Some are criminals. Many nations today used forced labor for criminals. Depending on the crime I don't consider it an invalid punishment at all.

 Anemone wrote:

So growing a slave race is absolutely moral in your opinion?

I don't necessarily consider them slaves. See above.

Being that, it would very much depend on how sapient said meat-sack is when first grown. I certainly don't consider it a problem if it's just a bunch if organs grown and added to technology.

But beyond that I make no moral judgements. Merely that everything should be observed on a case by case basis.

 Anemone wrote:

In which he mentions how brutal it is and never describes it as 'liberal', 'open' or 'compassionate'. Well if that's what you're saying then I agree completely and am glad we've arrived at the same point

I don't think I ever particularly claimed any of those things...

Brutal, yet apathetic in most cases towards the planetary government and religion. Hence my point.

 Anemone wrote:

It doesn't have freedom of religion, it has a single state-sanctioned faith and ideology which you must adhere to on pain of death.

A state sanctioned religion that is so broad and vague to be almost meaningless.

I don't think anyone here ever claimed it was complete freedom of religion, yet at the same time such a wide tolerance for different variations is at the same time flexible.

 Anemone wrote:

What is remarkable about it?

That it is comparatively flexible despite the supposed totalitarian nature and grimdark nature of the setting. The Imperium is remarkably hands off apart from a few very broad guidelines and duties.

You can have for example a constitutional monarchy that worships the Emperor as a sun god. You can have another world that regards the Emperor as a multi-facted being and another that identified him in general as a animistic spirit god living in the planet.

 Anemone wrote:

Now you are creating strawmen.

No, that is very much you. You are the one who pushed forward everything as a moral absolute and one who pushes everything to a faceless thoughtless mass or a perfect egalitarian paradise.

 Anemone wrote:

As for the second point; as I said earlier that is an example of intra-Imperium cultures, so then be specific and state the Imperium is only, to an extent, human multicultural. I said earlier already that it is acceptable, but then be specific and not deceptive.

I don't consider it to be deceptive at all. Especially considering the nature of the Imperium as something to not be monolithic. All those examples I provided are indeed various forms of deviation and thought from the Imperial norm.

Yeah, obviously the Imperium is human multicultural. I don't consider that to be a mark against them or deceptive at all when considering the nature of other Xenos and Chaos cultures in the galaxy.

 Anemone wrote:

Precisely, subvert, the people would still not be allowed to worship the religion they wanted to; the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a distinct deity from the Emperor, no relation between them at all.

As I said, semantics. Such a thing would eventually be de facto associated with the Emperor.

 Anemone wrote:

Honestly since you've already accepted there isn't freedom of religion in the Imperium, only variation of a single dominant mono-faith, I'm not sure why you're still arguing this point.

Again, I'm not arguing. I'm just stating my interpretation of things.

I never argued that there was complete freedom of religion in the Imperium, just a remarkable degree of flexibility between that one (very broad) religion.

 Anemone wrote:

Regardless the fact remains; your point simply underlines the message that people are not permitted to worship the religion they wish too if they wish too have a religion separate to worshiping the Emperor.

Yes and?

I'm not sure how that changes my point. I do consider it remarkable for such a single religion to have so many different variations and be tolerated to such an extent.

 Anemone wrote:

Can you prove that they do? You seem to be quite taken with the idea that if something is not explicitly stated it must not be true.

No, that is your strawman. I'm merely on the position that we simply don't know.

 Anemone wrote:

Additionally the evidence I'd use is how neither the Kroot or Nicassar have ever sought to compel the Tau to embrace their faiths and ideologies, or how the Kroot maintain their own ideology within the Tau Empire and do not assimilate or force upon others their views.

Ah, so in other words no real proof then.

 Anemone wrote:

Why not? In a story how else, other than using characters, do you make judgements?

Because one character is not a representative of an entire organization? Just like locarno24's point? The Inquisition is so vast and fragmented that to base a judgement off of it from a single Inquisitor is pointless.

 Anemone wrote:

You seem to be indicating you just think we can't say anything about the matter at all.

Of course you can. That is your right as a poster. Just as I can point out why I personally disagree with it.

 Anemone wrote:

So do you always then assume if a story doesn't have reference to LGBT individuals within it that it has a progressive and enlightened attitude of tolerance to them? You don't consider the problem of exclusion by treating them as not existing at all?

Neither of those things. I simply conclude it's an element that different on each planet and diverse culture of the Imperium. Some have equal rights. Others might not.

 Anemone wrote:

So there is honestly then no point to discussion with you since your position amounts to; "believe what you want and its canon,"?

If you wish to discuss opinions than that's fine. I always enjoy a healthy, respectful debate.

Nor do I consider my stance odd. I mean, after all that's what Black Library essentially tells us. Have you read Aaron Dembski-Bowden or Marc Gasigone's takes on the subject? It's very interesting.

''It's all true, and none of it is,''

 Anemone wrote:

What?

It's exactly as it sounds. Just because Black Library authors chose to not just certain LGBT characters into their stories does not mean that in-universe, such individuals are mistreated.

 Anemone wrote:

Your argument is that because we don't know the full bio of each High Lord of Terra we should just assume any of them could be transgender? Why do none of them identify as women then? Or as Intersex? Why do they all identify as men?

How do we know they all identify as men or that they used to be women? It's about as valid as anything you've said.

 Anemone wrote:

Haven't you called the Imperium 'liberal' three times now?

''Liberal'' in the sense that it is markedly open and flexible with some very broad guidelines. Not ''Liberal'' in the sense that it's the Star Trek Federeation as an enlightened example of humanistic values. I've already tried to explain this on multiple occasions.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anemone wrote:

-Not being an alien
-Not consorting with aliens

I would fold all of this under ''loyal to the Emperor'' in general. Nobody seriously expects xenos to happily join the Imperium.

 Anemone wrote:

-Not being unwilling to murder any alien man, woman, child or entity you ever encounter

A bit iffy on that one. We have plenty of examples of terrified civilians running away from alien invaders. I don't think anyone seriously expects the non-military aspects of the Imperium to take action in combat.

 Anemone wrote:

-Surrendering of technological development and maintenance to the system of the Mechanicus

Depends more on how much influence the Mechanicus has on the particular planet.

 Anemone wrote:

-Providing the required Tithe

The Imperium taxes it's worlds yes, but so does most functioning governments.

 Anemone wrote:

These are all major socio-political conditions and not simply small and simple requirements, in reality these are enormous resource and political demands upon states. Simply dismissing them as minor isn't very accurate to how much an impact on a society such requirements would have.

I don't consider the first three to be that major actually. Especially given the relentlessly hostile nature of most xenos in the universe.

 Anemone wrote:

If your culture doesn't include these requirements, as well as the two you mentioned before, then it will be forcibly compelled to comply to them once possible.

On paper at least.

In practice few people are going to care that some backwater world is using some modified tractors to farm or might be trading a few xenos items on the black market. The phobia of aliens or a sensible de facto policy. I mean, we have examples of the local officials (and it always comes down to the local officials doing these things. It would be impossible for a central authority to enforce that constantly on a galaxy-wide basis) giving a blind eye to Tau influence or ambassadors. I mean, in the Cain novels the Imperium has actually engaged in realpolitik with Tau diplomats.

The major things to the central government of the Imperium is that the tithes are paid on time and the system is generally loyal to the Emperor. Things like tech-deviation and even the local religion usually have alot of flexibility and sway and would generally have to come under the influence of the local officials.

 Anemone wrote:
Additionally there are more requirements then the ones you listed. Additional requirements include;

-Not being an alien
-Not consorting with aliens
-Not being unwilling to murder any alien man, woman, child or entity you ever encounter
-Surrendering of technological development and maintenance to the system of the Mechanicus
-Providing the required Tithe

Actually, there is one more that is often overlooked:
- Have a singular representative that the Imperial government can hold as responsible for that world.

 Anemone wrote:
These are all major socio-political conditions and not simply small and simple requirements, in reality these are enormous resource and political demands upon states.

Certainly, but even within that framework there is going to be room for a huge amount of cultural variation (greater than we know on our own earth). Afterall, the best way to generate distinct and different cultures is through separation and isolation, things the Imperium has in spades.

Ofcourse, to qualify, those strictures are also going to create certain trends (for instance; Monarchies & Dictatorships are going to be more common due to the 'Singular Rep' requirement), but that's not the same thing as cultural homogeneity.

Wipes read a join date as a post date

As a point of order, the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas is often on the Council of Terra, so at least one High Lord is female.

@Gree:

We see this don't we? Supplementary material has their share of nice pastoral worlds or quiet civilized places that don't soom too different from modern 20th century earth. I certainly would't mind living on Perlia or Thracian for example.

I would. Since I wouldn't be able to practice the faiths or ideologies I believe in. In fact I'd be killed for it. Millions of us would be killed for it. Is that your idea of a nice place? A place where if you hold your own ideology or faith then the state murders you?

Oh, I can judge it. I just find that portion of the Imperium to be rather insignificant compared to the grand scheme of things.

Then what is significant? You've rendered everything into insignificance at this stage, your goal seems to simply be to make it impossible to have meaningful discourse

You might have another planet where slavery is illegal. Does that mean that slavery in the Imperium is now illegal?

Give me an example of a planet in which it is explicitly stated that slavery is against the law.

As for what it would mean; Did the fact that European colonial powers didn't enslave their own people mean that they weren't slaving nations? Is your argument that if slavery is only restricted to certain groups its okay? Its fine? You do realize no polity in history applies slavery to all individuals, there are always classes of society excluded from the slaving process, that does not change a society or polity being a slaver state or nation. The Imperium is, due to its practice thereof, an explicit slaver state. But apparently slavery is popular here much to my dismay.

For example, I would find it silly to hold the central government of the Imperium responsible for the local government policies of a distant backwater planet ten thousand light years away that hasn't had contact with the Imperium in over two centuries.

Why? That is exactly how government accountability works. A central government is supposed to step in. You do realize that if a state in a nation begins, for example, enslaving its population people don't expect the Central Government to just stand back and do nothing, that would be seen as immoral. The duty of the Central Government would then be to step in and stop this.

Hence, obviously, the Imperium's Central Government is liable.

Okay, where does it say she is a sex slave? So far it seems pretty mundane to me.

Really?

How convenient for you. Despite making said claims first you don't have to provide evidence for them.

Very invective but ultimately meaningless, the same goes for you and I'm still awaiting any of your proofs.

Than why exactly are you bothering to reply?

Because you do? Obviously? You do realize a conversation is a two-way-street (at least) thus there's no more burden on me to end it than there is on you. If you want to end it fine, that's your right, but I don't need to stop posting anymore than you do.

As I said before, liberal by comparison.

To what? Orks and Chaos? That's a meaningless discussion.

The Imperium isn't liberal, didn't you just later in your previous post say that you never called the Imperium liberal? While which is it, would you describe the Imperium as liberal or not?

That's why you have a variety of cultures and governments. That's why you have a dizzying array of different Imperial cults and beliefs.

Human ones practicing the exact same state sanctioned faith and ideology within broad guidelines, two enormous restrictions on all citizens of the Imperium (although subjects would be more appropriate). I mean, to use an easy example, no Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Atheist or Agnostic would be allowed to live in the Imperium, they'd be killed when found out.

That's liberal to you?

The slavery it itself doesn't seem liberal, but the practice of generally having an apathetic hand? Yes, I consider that fairly liberal.

You consider apathy liberal? You consider a literal state-sanctioned faith and ideology enforced by pain of death liberal? So to your mind Saudi Arabia and every country on Earth must be shining beacons of liberalism? In fact even historically speaking you must then believe, by this logic, that every state or polity that has ever existed was highly liberal?

So what's illiberal then?

I never claimed where where worlds with the exact set of specifications which you demanded to see in your strawman.

But that is specifically what I asked for but, instead of answering the question by admitting you didn't have any, you dodged it till now.

I don't necessarily consider them slaves.

I'll be honest, putting aside a fantasy world for a while, your view on individual life and rights frightens me.

Brutal, yet apathetic in most cases towards the planetary government and religion. Hence my point.

Your point being that it is liberal? That's the word I see you use to describe it most of the time, yet Iocarno never described it as such. So what is your point, that the Imperium is liberal?

A state sanctioned religion that is so broad and vague to be almost meaningless.

Not at all meaningless! It means anyone who refuses to accept the divinity of the Emperor in some form or who refuses to believe in the Emperor is killed!

Those are lives, ended, for their having differing beliefs and opinions, how can you say that it is meaningless?

No, that is very much you.

No, you!

See, I can do it too, but it doesn't prove much.

As I said, semantics. Such a thing would eventually be de facto associated with the Emperor.

You don't know what semantics means do you? The difference between, say, worshiping Vishnu to worshiping Allah are not semantics at all, those are deeply held beliefs by individuals.

Again in this situation people desiring to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a separate deity to the Emperor would be compelled to abandon this belief of theirs. Honestly why are we still on this point, its indisputable. The Imperium will not allow people to worship a deity they regard as separate to the Emperor.

I do consider it remarkable for such a single religion to have so many different variations and be tolerated to such an extent.

So in your opinion Nazi Germany is remarkable for permitting numerous denominations of a religion? You believe it is remarkable the moment a state simply permits numerous denominations of a single religion?

You do realize all states in existence have permitted numerous denominations of at least one religion (most states have permitted more than this, or the Imperium, ever has)

I'm merely on the position that we simply don't know.

Then why speak? Surely all you can do is stay silent on the matter since in your opinion there is nothing to say. It is very Wittgenstein of you.

Just as I can point out why I personally disagree with it.

But your reasons for disagreeing are simply to repeat; 'we don't know,' over and over. It makes any discussion impossible.

Honestly what's the point of talking then? You've made clear your position amounts too; 'believe what you want' and that's it. By your logic I legitimately could just say Sapient Cheese Wheels rule everything and it'd be as canon as anything else.

It's exactly as it sounds. Just because Black Library authors chose to not just certain LGBT characters into their stories does not mean that in-universe, such individuals are mistreated.

Again do you actually think that simply not showing these individuals is fine? Do you realize how much campaigning goes into trying to open the world to the appearance and presence of LGBT individuals more by allowing them to have appearances in stories, positive appearances? Why, by this logic, do we have women in stories? Or minorities? Or Humans? Since off-screen everything is always honky-dory, why do we exclusively seem to focus all our attention so much on men? Isn't there something to question there?

How do we know they all identify as men or that they used to be women?

Because they use masculine terms when referring to themselves? When thinking about themselves? I'd think that were obvious.

Also, seriously, is your argument now that all High Lords of Terra are maybe Transgendered individuals? or Intersex individuals? Why doesn't this show up in their Lexicanum bios? Why are they simply referred to as males then?

''Liberal'' in the sense that it is markedly open and flexible with some very broad guidelines.

So you did call it liberal.

I would fold all of this under ''loyal to the Emperor'' in general. Nobody seriously expects xenos to happily join the Imperium.

Then "Loyalty to the Emperor" simply becomes a complex and colossally large requirement, if you want to group them together under one heading that's fine, but it changes nothing.

Why should xenos have to join the Imperium? Why should anyone have to join the Imperium? Based on what rational argumentation is their any need to join the Imperium?

A bit iffy on that one. We have plenty of examples of terrified civilians running away from alien invaders. I don't think anyone seriously expects the non-military aspects of the Imperium to take action in combat.

By unwilling I meant if one had the ability to. But if you wish a more precise rephrase;

-One must never spare the life of an alien when possible, assist aliens, or prevent their destruction in any means capable to you. One must also hate them completely and desire the death of every alien man, woman, child and thing in the galaxy.

Depends more on how much influence the Mechanicus has on the particular planet.

No it doesn't depend, Imperial policy is that the Mechanicus has oversight over technology.

Please give me an example of a world with an attitude towards technology not either overseen by the Mechanicus or influenced by them. You just claim things with no substantiation.

The Imperium taxes it's worlds yes, but so does most functioning governments.

We aren't discussing if what it does are 'normal' or not, we're just discussing what is required.

I don't consider the first three to be that major actually. Especially given the relentlessly hostile nature of most xenos in the universe.

I don't really know what to say to that. If you don't consider them major I can't help, but simply from the facts of politics, economics and society all three those things are very major, and always have been.

@Pendix: Good point, that's another requirement, thanks for pointing it out.

Also I agree with your second point; as I've said the Imperium definitely has a degree of Human multiculturalism, but even that is only to an extent. Additionally, as you say, it has a strong tendency towards repressive and unrepresentative systems.

Indeed the class discrimination within the Imperium is exceeded only by its racial discrimination.

@Psiensis: Didn't I specifically say that of the twenty-six known High Lords of Terra three were women? That obviously included her. Besides she's vanished a while ago meaning that the current High Lords have no female member.

Not that this is strange mind you, I find it odd that someone's arguing that the Imperium is egalitarian towards genders when in the fluff we've been overwhelmingly presented with the fact that males dominate virtually all important positions by an incredibly skewed ratio.

Also having a token female on the High Lords wouldn't suddenly make them egalitarian. That'd be like Saudi Arabia allowing one female advisor and then going; "We have complete equality between women and men," whilst still having a system in which virtually all top and important positions are held solely by males.

Yup, and also being a citizen that always abides to law and follows his superiros. After all, it's all about knowing each other's place in the Imperium of Man.

 Anemone wrote:

Because you do? Obviously? You do realize a conversation is a two-way-street (at least) thus there's no more burden on me to end it than there is on you. If you want to end it fine, that's your right, but I don't need to stop posting anymore than you do.

I kinda stopped reading about here. I could make a more extensive reply to your post, except I think at this point neither of us will change our stance on this. So let’s just agree to disagree then.

@Gree: Understood, we'll leave it at that then. Cheers.

Yeah for the most part they are "multi cultural." So long as you don't worship a god other then the Big E you can have your normal traditions. Seeing as how humanity was spread across the stars on various environments they are going to produce different humans

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Yeah for the most part they are "multi cultural." So long as you don't worship a god other then the Big E you can have your normal traditions. Seeing as how humanity was spread across the stars on various environments they are going to produce different humans

long as you change "insiert gods name" and use some variation on the Big E, your fine.

you can use different names, diffrent worship but long as your not too crazy your good.

 Anemone wrote:
@Pendix: . . . Also I agree with your second point; as I've said the Imperium definitely has a degree of Human multiculturalism . . .

To clarify; as I was saying in my first post, the Imperium doesn't have 'Multiculturalism' as we practice or experience it, each world is functionally a mono-culture. Rather it has a sort-of 'many-cultural-ism', in that it is home to a huge variety of separate & distinct cultures (more varied, even, than we know on our humble little rock).

 Anemone wrote:
Additionally, as you say, it has a strong tendency towards repressive and unrepresentative systems.

Sorry, I didn't say that. I said there would be trends, I even offered an example of one, but I made no speculation on the strength of them, or the levels of repression or representation.

I mean, if you want to have a conversation about the effects of Imperial Strictures on individual worlds cultures (or politics), I'm happy too, (and I think you've sorta been having that conversation with other posters), but don't put words into my mouth.

@Pendix: I'd dispute what's been shown is any more multicultural then what exists in reality, certainly I've never seen anything in GW Fluff as diverse and comprehensive as cultural differences between Zulu, Basotho, Volga German and many others.

I don't think one can really compare the culture as presented in GW fluff to how depthful and complex culture is in reality, GW fluff culture tends to be a very thin layer defined primarily by religious uniformity, discrimination of all sorts and virulent intolerance.

As for the second bit; apologies I must have misunderstood your comment concerning Monarchies and Dictatorships, my mistake.

 Anemone wrote:
@Pendix: I'd dispute what's been shown is any more multicultural then what exists in reality, certainly I've never seen anything in GW Fluff as diverse and comprehensive as cultural differences between Zulu, Basotho, Volga German and many others.

Certainly, 'what's been shown' is not very diverse, but is that an issue with the setting, or an issue with how it is written about/portrayed (and is there a difference?).

We have this problem in 40K, where we are often told, usually by an omniscient narrator, about how the Imperium, parts of the Imperium, or other parts of the setting, works, in big broad brushstrokes. Only, when the attendant fiction starts to drill down into specific stories or subjects, it suddenly doesn't seem to work that way anymore, there is a (I'd almost say fundamental) disconnect.

We are often told about the capabilities of Space Marine, or of their gear (such as boltguns), usually in relatively realistic terms, in codices, and BRBs, and other sourcebooks. Then we get specific stories, (or computer games, for instance), where the Space Marines are portrayed with capabilities vastly in excess of the picture painted in the other material. So marked is this disparity the community has coined the term "Movie Marines".

This whole thing brings up a difficult question, of which is the 'real' 40K? The answer is suppose to be "both; 40K is what you make it". But that hardly resolves vehement internet arguments.

 Anemone wrote:
I don't think one can really compare the culture as presented in GW fluff to how depthful and complex culture is in reality, GW fluff culture tends to be a very thin layer . . .

I'd also like to note that that, at least, is a challenge native to all fictional settings, and I don't believe any have really succeeded in portraying cultures that are as deep and complex as real ones, it's just not possible to do (though there is a sliding scale of failure).

 Anemone wrote:
As for the second bit; apologies I must have misunderstood your comment concerning Monarchies and Dictatorships, my mistake.

It's all good; I just like to ensure people have a clear idea about what I am (and am not) saying.

You pretty much just have to pay your taxes and worship the Emperor - anything else can be overlooked if you have a good enough excuse.

It's not unknown nor unacceptable to hire Xenos mercenaries, trade with races such as the Demiurg, or for alien technology to be traded for (so long as the local Adeptus Mechanicus representative puts the appropriate oils of sanction on it, or what not).

I think the imperium is more multicultural than what is depicted.

I know I was super happy to see an African features marine head in the Deathwatch box. It was a small gesture but meant a lot to see.

Hope they continue to do so and bring in more cultural features and female models. It really is understated how much it means to see features similar to yours in a bunch of places

As I see it the Imperium, although often compared to a feudal state also takes many elements from other Empires such as Imperial Rome and the British Empire.

Technically the central body prefers a light touch, backed by a really big hammer.

As a part of the Imperium your world will be governed by a single person (sex is irrelevant) who is directly responsible for the tithe of warriors, material and whatever else the Imperium deems is correct to pay for its benign protection.

Various Imperial bodies will and enact summary or judicial judgment on your citizens - the Inquisition, The Church, the Mechancium, the Arbites.
You will send all Psykers to the Black Ships.
You will not trade with Aliens
You will hold the Emperor up as the supreme God of the universe and Man, if that means that He is identified with a supreme being already in your culture that's all fine and any Gods that are beneath him are fine.
You will persecute the Mutant.

Other than that just get on with your life.

Want to have democracy - no worries, obey the previous and all will be well. Want to have same sex marriages or the like - why do we care, obey the Imperial dictates. Want to have a dictatorship that enslaves everyone other than the ruling family - if you like, pay your tithe. Want to discriminate against white people - we don't care, pay your tithe. Want to have men as second class citizens - so what - pay your tithe. Slavery is illegal here - don't care, pay your tithe.

The are a vast array of cultures that have adapted or grown within this dictates and many that have been stamped out because they can't.

If a Imperial Governor is appointed from a Imperial Noble or other withy then he or she may well exploit the hell out of the place for their own pleasure- similar to Roman governors.

As long as you pay your taxes and worship the Emperor, The Empire will leave you alone, unless some fanatic faction inquisitor comes to visit!

@Pendix:

Certainly, 'what's been shown' is not very diverse, but is that an issue with the setting, or an issue with how it is written about/portrayed (and is there a difference?).

I agree completely with this.

But at the same time the point I was trying to make was a little different, though the above remains true always. The point is that the Imperium has numerous worlds with a singular dominant cultural theme;

Compare our Earth which has had the Aztec Empire, the Shogunate of Japan, the Kingdom of Shaka Zulu and the British Empire to, say, Fenris with only a Norse influenced cultural theme across the entire planet, or Catachan a world purely made of the Vietnam American culture (and even then only one very specific aspect of it).

Worlds in the Imperium tend to have a single dominant mono-culture (usually an incredibly shallow appropriation of something from the real world) rather than a planet with numerous vastly differing cultural traditions and origins.

The Imperium has a very crude and simplistic cultural diversity among humans. Each World tends to have one culture and that's it, as opposed to the real Earth which, despite being one planet, sees thousands of very diverse cultures emerging on it.

This whole thing brings up a difficult question, of which is the 'real' 40K? The answer is suppose to be "both; 40K is what you make it". But that hardly resolves vehement internet arguments.

A fine answer but, at the same time, it does render most discussion meaningless since I can then, completely, assert that the Sapient Cheese Wheel alliance rules the galaxy.

It should end the arguments because, honestly, if everyone holds to this position then any argument should end instantly with both parties just accepting that whatever they want to believe is true. The existence of further arguments means that clearly not everyone believes this since otherwise there isn't much point to debate. In my opinion of course.

@Crazyterran: It's also not known of for planets to be wiped out for doing such things. In fact the rulebook states its only permitted when it is hidden or on the fringes of the Imperium.

Besides 'just' worshiping the Emperor isn't a small thing. If someone came and told you that everyone has to convert to Christianity right now or die would it be a 'small thing'? Of course not, the Imperium invades and compels the single most important part of any existence; your beliefs and ideals. The Imperium demands conversion to a singular ideology and the extermination of anything which does not conform to this ideology.

I honestly become so frightened that the fanbase seems to think compelled subservience to a single state-sanctioned ideology and the eradication of all other life which does not conform is somehow 'small' or 'trivial'. It means billions die for having their own thoughts and beliefs. Billions is probably to small an estimate; men, women, children real people with families and loved ones, aspirations and goals, wiped out for not desiring to conform to a single ideology enforced by pain of death on them.

I am so glad that in the real world our position towards singular ideologies enforced on pain of death tends to not be so accommodating.

@Leth:

I think the imperium is more multicultural than what is depicted.

I just don't understand this. If it is depicted a certain way...then why do you think it is more multicultural than that? I just...what's your evidence for declaring it more multicultural then it is depicted?

Hope they continue to do so and bring in more cultural features and female models. It really is understated how much it means to see features similar to yours in a bunch of places

Agreed completely, I really like this sentiment too, its why I feel so disappointed about the lack of anything LGBT related at all in the Imperium and yet then claiming it to be an egalitarian body. It clearly isn't egalitarian or liberal at all.

Honestly for the declarations of 'there are no good guys' there seem to be a lot of efforts to claim the Imperium is a 'good guy'.

Besides 'just' worshiping the Emperor isn't a small thing. If someone came and told you that everyone has to convert to Christianity right now or die would it be a 'small thing'? Of course not, the Imperium invades and compels the single most important part of any existence; your beliefs and ideals. The Imperium demands conversion to a singular ideology and the extermination of anything which does not conform to this ideology.

Belief is not always the most important thing to everyone - often people are far more concerned with simply living.

Its not that simple - its more akin to the Roman Empire where the Emperor as supreme deity is overlaid onto any existing structure.

So in current monotheistic religions - its a name change and details of the worship and tenants of faith. Monotheistic religions usually have a supreme God / goddess who can be co-opted. Most religions change and adapt to changing worlds and situations.

The Imperium has a very crude and simplistic cultural diversity among humans. Each World tends to have one culture and that's it, as opposed to the real Earth which, despite being one planet, sees thousands of very diverse cultures emerging on it.

That's the problem when you try to depict a million world empire - its easier to say - yeah this is the Aztec planet, this is the Viking planet etc etc. When authors actually delve into worlds they can be much more interesting but they usually don' because that's not what they have been asked to do for the most part.

its why I feel so disappointed about the lack of anything LGBT related at all in the Imperium

That's more an issue with the company that owns it not wanting to cause any controversy and the model making aspect being increasingly reluctant to commission female models sadly.

It is (to me at least) irritating that some of the more recent Codex fluff has been going against the more interesting and diverse elements of that shown in BL and other official sources - but I honestly think that GW feels that its market was always and remains predominately white males (teenage to elderly) who like playing toy soldiers and are reluctant to have anything other than what they think would appeal to them,

The Imperium is mulit-cultural and liberal only in the same way as the Roman and British empires was - they have vast swathes of land and people that have hugely different cultures and seldom intervene in details such as marriage, sexual orientation etc unless it directly intervenes with the few "universal" laws they uphold. If it does - they crush anything that does not conform. Otherwise they simply don't care and often new cultural ideas and styles become vogue in the heart of Imperial power.

Its one of the reasons that early Christianity had such problems - it would not compromise.

Oddly enough you mention the LGBT thing. Well in the fluff you see it quite often, it's just not treated as anything special. "Hey this noble likes dudes" and that is literally the end of it, and it only comes up if it is relevant to the conversation. It is not scandalous or something to raise an eyebrow at because it is considered par for the course and not worry bringing up out of context. Reminds me of Mass Effect 3 where Cortez says "my husband died at X planet" and shep doesnt even flinch, they don't make it some major plot point or applaud him for being gay. It only came up because he mentioned his spouse dying otherwise you wouldn't know.

As to how it is depicted I meant in the model range. Most of the range is almost exclusively Caucasian and this translates to the depictions in the art. However I understand the difficulty of adding this into the range, it's hard to get diversity within diversity on a limited sprue. Unless you come out with dedicated diversity packs it's going to seem very stereotypical and limited. I do wish more quality third party artists did this sort of thing but I recognize the perceived limited market.

 Leth wrote:
Oddly enough you mention the LGBT thing. Well in the fluff you see it quite often, it's just not treated as anything special. "Hey is noble likes dudes" and that is literally the end of it. It is not scandalous or something to raise an eyebrow at because it is considered par for the course. Reminds me of Mass Effect 3 where Cortez says "my husband died at X planet" and shep doesnt even flinch, they don't make it some major plot point or applaud him for being gay..

I always thought that was a more adult and better way - its not anything unusual or even particularly interesting - its just normal - isn't that how it should be depictured.

The two women universally thought to be lesbian in Cain's unit are not singled out with Cain just mentioning that they are not interested in men - he has no interest in their relationship - although arguably he should in the aspect of a trooper being involved with her superior - but then he is probably happy that he is not having to deal with the pregnancy issues that have arisen elsewhere in the mixed sex unit.

There should not be a need to make an issue of how is sleeping with whom in the same way as there should be good and bad (and shades of grey) LGBT people - because they are just people.

 Pendix wrote:
Ok, setting aside the other stuff going on here, I think the 'Imperium is not Multicultural' argument has some legs.

The trick is, 'mono-cultural'/'multicultural' are descriptions of societies, and the Imperium is not really a society (at least; in the traditional sense). It's more a geopolitical entity*, that is made up of a large number of smaller distinct societies (be they the interplanetary 'Adepta' societies, or the societies of individual worlds).

Those myriad societies though, I would argue, are almost all 'mono-cultural' and not 'multicultural'.

Consider, a typical member of a modern day 'Multicultural' society is going to experience that multiculturalism in the form of foods from different cultures, regularly seeing art or media from cultures not their own, regularly seeing/interacting with practitioners of said alternative cultures, etc. However for a typical member of most Imperial Societies, they are only ever going to be dealing with the culture of their own world (or own 'Adepta'), which is likely global (given the characterisation of most Imperial Worlds as 'Worlds of Hats'). Even the worlds with less repressive-state controlled governments are not going to be awash in the people/food/media/ideas of other worlds, due to the generally isolating nature of Imperial space travel/traffic.

So, no, the 'Imperium' is not multicultural, it may contain a huge & diverse number of cultures, but that is not the same thing.

*am I using that right?

Thank the Emperor for this post. I was about to give up on this thread untill I read this. I've currently moved away from my usual habitat and don't have my books on hand so the following references will be largely unspecific, but at least I have some information to provide. The following will largely be based on the following materials:
Necromunda salvation, junktion and core rulebook.
DH 1st and 2nd Ed
Comissar Cain series
Eisenhorn series
Ravenor series
Enforcer Shria Calpurcia series
Scourge the heretic (by Sandy Mitchell)
The last chancers (13th penal legion)
Let the galaxy burn (compilation of 38short stories)
Codex Catachan (3d ed)

Regarding culture mix in the Imperium:
No one can deny the diffrences between all the worlds in the Imperium. The most obvious cultural diffrences fall between vanilla humans, the astartes worlds, the mechanicus worlds and the abhuman worlds. No one can argue the diffrence between for example the culture of Ogryns to those of the Astartes, both technically citizens of the Imperium.
As regard to human-human worlds cultural exchanges we have evidence of it being common.
1 example is from the first Shria Calpurcia novel "Enforcer" (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). The main character goes through the procedure of stimulating her Immune system against known diseases on the world to be visited. This is relevant because of course such practice needs to be massed due to the diffrences in bacteria and viruses on diffrent worlds. Upon this world she's taught that conversations are not as important as where you walk during them. For example, walking to a window means complentation, walking to a done means denial and walking to a garden or other shrubbery means acceptance. Clearly a cultural diffrence from what she's used to, since it confuses her greatly. They mention how it's a practice that takes outsiders quite some time to grasp usually.
2 example is from one of Cains many Space battles. He mentions holo movies repeatedly and how romanticised they are compared to the real deal. He mentions a particular movie where the ships fight at point blank range and how popular theese movies are on several worlds.
3 is from Eisenhorn where he mentions how his student, Ravenor, would produce written works that would be of huge interplanitary popularity
4 is from let the galaxy burn where we follow a doctors quest to cure a plauge. He is very surprised and diffrences in medical practice within the Imperium.
5 is from the DH books where pilgrims are mentioned to sometimes simply be individuals who wish to travel and see more of the Imperium, and the church's pilgrimages is a good way, being sponsored and all.
6 and perhaps the best argument is also from the Cain series. In many of the books travel guides are mentioned for the Imperium citizens who doesn't want to spend to much and yet see more of the Imperium. From this it's clear that travelling for leisure for the Imperiums middle class is not as restricted as one might expect.
So now we have covered world to world diffrences and cultural exchange in conversation, medicine, movies, books and travelling. Since it's clear that there is a diffrence in culture between various planets this goes to prove that said planets also have cultural exchanges, hence the term multicultural being prominent.

Regarding the economics of the Imperium:
To spread media someone must stand to gain from it. In 40k corporations are largely unheard of but the economical heavyweights are still around as seen in the nobility. We know traders are a huge deal, both the rouge trader variant and their regular countrtparts and hence we know that profit made from economic gain easily justifies cultural products that can be sold. In DH 1ed we get a clear look on the currency used in the calixis sector (called thrones). In Ravenor diffrent accounts are often mentioned as Ravenor use them to bribe/buy his way to various ends. In one scenen bounty Hunter Nayle buss information from a woman using coins, hence we can point on various currencies being used by the Imperiums citizens. This is relevant because it highlights the cultural diffrences of diffrent worlds. I personally find it baffling that there isn't a "ordo economics" in the Inquisition that's tasked with safeholding the Imperiums financial intrests (in the form of various reasources)

Regarding social policies of the Imperium:
The Imperium has a codex of law that's enforced by the adeptus arbites. All governments of the Imperium (with some exceptions) need to follow theese laws, or they will find themselves at odds with the arbites and possibly the Inquisition. I'd expand on this further if I had my books.

Regarding marriage in the Imperium:
Marriage is a sanctified practice by the ecclisiarchy and thus by the Imperium as a whole. In Scourge the heretic the 15 or so years old assasin mentions how she doesn't know much about intercourse but that it's apparently an acceptable practice if you're married through the church. Marriage plays a huge role in the ruling elites power plays, as seen in the novel lasgun wedding.

Regarding the Imperiums colaboration with xenos:
We have several cases of this happening despite it being against the law. A few races are allowed to exist because they don't pose a threat or because the Imperium can benefit from them. Examples are the Hrud and the Jokkaero.
There's numerous examples of orcs and kroot being hired as mercenaries.
In Eisenhorn a new type of crops of xenos origin is the new best thing on the market. Eisenhorn makes a mental note to deal with it but as I recall he never actually does so.
Many worlds enjoy somewhat friendly relations with the Tau. Comissar Cain is commonly found negotiating for peace rather then war.

Conclusion:
The Imperium is multicultural. Xenos are supposed to be eradicated but the opposite is sometimes the case. This took forever to write.

Good post

Many worlds enjoy somewhat friendly relations with the Tau. Comissar Cain is commonly found negotiating for peace rather then war.

Interestingly he has more issues dealing with human collaborators (even young pretty ones) than Xenos. He is a pragmatic but also a true believer in the God-Emperor as is Amberley.

Whilst planets and officials do deal with the Xenos - they usually suffer sanction because of it, unless under the auspices of a higher authority - ie the Inquisition.

Imperial Marriages between nobles are often arranged by a specialist branch of the Adepta Sororitas

The assassin in Scourge the Heretic was brought up by redemptionists who are hard line even by Imperial standards and not that reflective of your average Imperial citizen.

@Mr Morden:

Belief is not always the most important thing to everyone - often people are far more concerned with simply living.

It is important enough that millions have died for it.

Besides now you're just making the argument that people will accept repression because they fear for their lives, how does that diminish how horrific it is to force such a thing upon them?

It doesn't actually change anything of what I said.

Its not that simple - its more akin to the Roman Empire where the Emperor as supreme deity is overlaid onto any existing structure.

And like all Empires which practiced religious persecution the Roman Empire murdered and oppressed groups in order to force their compliance through fear. Surely you aren't saying this is a good thing?

I'm just not quite sure what your point is, none of this changes that the Imperium horribly oppresses and compels obedience through threat of death against any who desires to believe (whether religious or ideological since atheists and agnostics would be killed to) something different. Surely you aren't defending that as liberal or good?

That's the problem when you try to depict a million world empire - its easier to say - yeah this is the Aztec planet, this is the Viking planet etc etc. When authors actually delve into worlds they can be much more interesting but they usually don' because that's not what they have been asked to do for the most part.

That is why it is so, for sure, but it doesn't change that it is still so. The Imperium practices generally only one culture on an entire planet, which is way less diverse than what our one tiny world has managed.

The Imperium is mulit-cultural and liberal only in the same way as the Roman and British empires was

But no historian alive today would describe either of those Empires as 'Liberal', 'Multicultural' or 'Inclusive'. Indeed in history an important focus particularly with British colonial mandates and holdings is exactly how extensive, intrusive and complex the influence they had was. It was far from a 'hand's off' rulership method, in modern historical academia no-one would accept a statement like 'The British Empire permitted colonies to go on exactly as they wished save for a few core rules' since its utterly untrue, no Empire in history has ruled over holdings without incredibly changing, altering and shifting the culture, legal system, politics and beliefs of the area.

One simply has to look at the history of the Basotho or Xhosa, or the Kaingang for that.

So comparing the Imperium to the British Empire, or even worse the Roman Empire, just means comparing them to Empires we today see as having had massive effects of changing the cultures they influenced and foisting mores upon them from a top-down approach.

@Leth:

Well in the fluff you see it quite often

Where?

No, seriously, I really want to know, this actually means a lot to me. I've searched and searched and other than references to decadent and disgusting nobles and Dark Eldar the most I've ever found is an implication of lesbianism among side characters.

If you can answer just one question for me please tell me your sources, please, I'd love to know about this 'quite often' LGBT in Warhammer 40k, it would mean a lot to me.

@Nerak:

The Imperium is multicultural. Xenos are supposed to be eradicated but the opposite is sometimes the case.

The Imperium is Human Multicultural, within certain restrictions, and only permits Xenos interaction when it does not have the resources to do otherwise. Applauding that as being progressive would be like applauding a murderer for not killing a person because they ran out of time to do it in.

Honestly what's the obsession with arguing that the Imperium is morally good? I thought the premise of the universe was that it wasn't.

Hmm I never said the Imperium was good?

The Imperium is Human Multicultural, within certain restrictions, and only permits Xenos interaction when it does not have the resources to do otherwise

Which is what I said - so we agree?

The argument whether the Imperium is good or bad is entirely unrelated and depends if you are arguing from our viewpoint or theirs.

And like all Empires which practiced religious persecution the Roman Empire murdered and oppressed groups in order to force their compliance through fear. Surely you aren't saying this is a good thing?

I'm just not quite sure what your point is, none of this changes that the Imperium horribly oppresses and compels obedience through threat of death against any who desires to believe (whether religious or ideological since atheists and agnostics would be killed to) something different. Surely you aren't defending that as liberal or good?

I never mentioned good or bad - I said thats what Empires did and do now - From my reading of the Roman Empire - Religious cults were normally only opressed if they werepoltical active against the Empire and /or refused to acknowledge official deities - if you simply towed the line or added the Roman pantheon to your own / changed the names - they did not care what the locals did - in some cases they would even adpot them and bring them back to the centre of power. Even the persecution of Christinaity was ad hoc and usually done for poltical reasons - lest find a scapegoat - hey there this is weird mnior cult thats being a pain - lets blame them for X and Y..

Besides now you're just making the argument that people will accept repression because they fear for their lives, how does that diminish how horrific it is to force such a thing upon them?

No I am saying that millions have died for religion adn faith and billions have not - not because they were in fear but also because in many cases they did not care - look at modern day - most of the West (by that I mean any civilised nation) simpy don't unsderstand ISIS because they do have that kind of absolute and unbending Faith - misguided, homicidel faith but there it is - how many of us on this froum would die rather than Worship the Emperor if that was the choice?

I wouldn't.

Not everyone has or indeed needs an exlcusive religious Faith. You can be a good moral individual and not have it,

@Mr Morden:

Hmm I never said the Imperium was good?

Apologies, I must have misunderstood what you were saying then.

Which is what I said

Oh, apologies, I though you were calling the Imperium Liberal and Inclusive. Never mind then.

From my reading of the Roman Empire

To be clear the Roman Empire is far, far, FAR more benevolent than the Imperium is. There has never in history, thank goodness, been a regime as oppressive and cruel as the Imperium.

That being said I still don't grasp what your point is; yes Romans (like all cultures) adapted religion and ideology as they went, but it also remains a fact that they persecuted and killed people based on religion and ideology as well, nothing changes this.

religion adn faith

It doesn't need to be religion or faith it can be ideologies too. For example the Imperium would kill anyone arguing for an accountable government, a representative system or a rational system of governance to replace the Emperor and High Lords.

If I recall correctly one of the Space Marine Codexes even has a fluff blurb about a force of Marines wiping our rebels on a planet where the dangerous notions of 'democracy' had taken root.

Beliefs need not be only religious, indeed ideological beliefs can cause as much harm, and good, as religious ones.

look at modern day - most of the West (by that I mean any civilised nation) simpy don't unsderstand ISIS because they do have that kind of absolute and unbending Faith

I'd rather avoid being drawn into this conversation on this forum so I won't go further than saying that that is a bit of an oversimplification of a far more complicated situation.

Not everyone has or indeed needs an exlcusive religious Faith. You can be a good moral individual and not have it

Completely agree...but I don't understand what point you're making by bringing it up? After all an atheist or agnostic are as likely to be killed by the Imperium as a Hindu, Satanist, Muslim or Christian.

None of this changes that the Imperium brutally and oppressively compels conformity to their state-sanctioned ideology and religion on pain of death. In the Imperium you can't even choose not to have a faith because the Imperium already has an exclusive faith and if you are not part of it then they will kill you.

 Anemone wrote:


None of this changes that the Imperium brutally and oppressively compels conformity to their state-sanctioned ideology and religion on pain of death. In the Imperium you can't even choose not to have a faith because the Imperium already has an exclusive faith and if you are not part of it then they will kill you.

That's not quite true. Many space marine chapters (in fact pretty much all first founding ones) are noted for not following the Imperial Creed in seeing the Emperor as a God, with most that worship him being the exception to the rule. Many of them retain their homeworld culture's beliefs and superstitions with only those that are extremely deviant or under investigation by the Inquisition being put under question.

Likewise, the Adeptus Mechanicus is another example of the Imperium not being as black and white as you assume it to be, since many amongst the tech-priests don't see the Emperor as the Omnissiah and the Cult Mechanicus is a distinct entity from that of the Ecclesiarchy. Hell, there was the Moirae schism where the founding of the Sons of Medusa chapter was a result of believers on the other side being allowed to leave the Iron Hands and form their own chapter, so clearly there's some lee-way.

I said the Imperium was as liberal as two large and brutal human empire in the past - - They allowed considerable cultural and religious freedoms, mainly because they didn’t care and as long as neither interfered with tax collecting and general exploitation.

The Imperium of Man is similar, but more hard line on the religious front - but then it has cause to be - worship of Chaos does actually bring Daemons and the like, witches are real etc etc. Thats not something our world has to worry about.

I always thought that the point of the Imperium was that much of it is cruel and oppressive but that it has to be to survive, context is important. It is a bloated and terrible regime but within its confines humanity survives and prospers. Depending on the world and many are shown to be somewhat darker versions of our own - but certainly not Orwellian or even as bad as ISIS - there are ones that are this or worse but not all.

For example the Imperium would kill anyone arguing for an accountable government, a representative system or a rational system of governance to replace the Emperor and High Lords

.

For their own planet - you can have an elected and accountable governor - just that he or she has to report ot the Imperium of Man - who protect it from the evils of the universe - its a somewhat darker version of those in Traveller, Fading Suns, Dune etc etc - a sci-fi trope.

Yes the Imperium as whole tends to be Faithful and would believe that to overthrow the Emperor is to try to overthrow God. One could argue quite well that the High Lords represent the Imperium already? The Adeptus Mechanicum is arguably a Meritocracy - well sort of.

If I recall correctly one of the Space Marine Codexes even has a fluff blurb about a force of Marines wiping our rebels on a planet where the dangerous notions of 'democracy' had taken root. Beliefs need not be only religious, indeed ideological beliefs can cause as much harm, and good, as religious ones.

Have to cite the source as don't recall it - democracy is shown to exist and work fine within the Imperium on a planetary scale at least.

None of this changes that the Imperium brutally and oppressively compels conformity to their state-sanctioned ideology and religion on pain of death. In the Imperium you can't even choose not to have a faith because the Imperium already has an exclusive faith and if you are not part of it then they will kill you.

Yes and no - Yes if you stand up and confront the Church you will be punished - killing may not be immediate depending on your actions - don't go to Church - penance, lashes etc.

You can choose not to believe in Him but unless you speak of your belief out loud, it’s unlikely to matter - pay your taxes and tithes, recite the words, get on with your life - you can even maintain your old shrines, temples etc.

Its hard for me to understand true Faith but I have friends who have it. It’s interesting……
What complicates the whole thing is that the Emperor as a God is palpably real but he is not alone......If God comes round and throws stones at the windows of Atheists how do you remain an atheist (paraphrasing Pratchet)

To sum up – we both agree that the Imperium of Man is a brutal regime that allows cultural differences to flourish within certain boundaries – and consequently can be said to be multicultural as the OP suggests.
However it would be hard to describe it as a force for good, at best it’s simply how the human race survives – by repression, torture, genocide and worse.

Its difficult to make any judgment on anyone who lives in such a universe. Is what they do justified, maybe, likely not but its what they think they have to do and in universe there is no currently viable alternative.

Two of my favourite 40k characters – Cain and Amberely are basically decent individuals, rational, considered, believers in the Emperor and capable of loving relationships. They would not blink at burning a heretic or a Xenos collaborator – mainly because they know where it leads. By our standards they are fanatics, by the Imperiums they are bleeding heart liberals.

Even races like the Eldar are not really utopian – they have a strict and regulated cultural imperative and structure – break the rules not only can you be expelled but you can lose your soul and those of everyone you know and love.
If you want Utopian you need to live in the Culture.

End ramble!!!

 Nerak wrote:
Thank the Emperor for this post. I was about to give up on this thread untill I read this.

Happy to oblige!

 Nerak wrote:
... snip...

That's all . . . very interesting actually. I don't read much of the Black Library stuff, myself, mainly getting my 40K fluff fix from codices, rulebooks & rpg sourcebooks. The idea of interstellar trade of consumer goods being somewhat commonplace is a new one for me, particularly consumer media. I always assumed interstellar trade was primarily in bulk resources or industrial/military goods. Sure, in certain regions of Imperial Space it would be more likely, (such as around Ultramar), but common enough to crop up in multiple different series by different authors, I had no idea. Less isolation than I thought.

 Nerak wrote:
This took forever to write.

The topic of "The culture of the Imperium" is a big, really big, subject, and it can be a struggle to break down what you want to say about it into manageable chucks. Which is my principal problem at the moment.

I think the example with democracy he is talki about is when they overthrew the planetary governor and tried to install a democratic government.

On the LGBT front I am sorry I can't think of many off the top of my head. I know I have not seen a main character where it has come up but I feel like a lot of side characters have show those tendencies, it was just super subtle or not important. It's rough because there are few opportunities in the fluff for it to really come up in a nuanced way.

This thread is out of control.

Can someone call the Inquisition and order Exterminatus ?

 Warzoner wrote:
Hi people. So, these last days I was looking back at my old copies of several codex, rulebooks, etc., and a small thought occured to me : what if the Imperium was in fact multicultural ?

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that there is a strong, core, cultural pillar in the Imperium (which is the Imperial creed), but still, when you look at the different factions that compose the Imperium, you can't help but notice how many of them are different from each other.

For example, look at the Vostroyans, the Tarlarns and the Catachans. All are Imperial, yet each has it's own traditions and way of life and views about the galaxy.

Another more bleeding obvious example are the Adeptus Astartes chapters, even those that are Codex Astartes followers.

Could it be that for all its military/ dictatorial looks, the Imperium is in fact multicultural and open to pluralism (regarding human factions, of course) ?

As long as the Emperor gets his due, some variation of the Imperial Creed is followed, and you don't truck with Chaos or unsanctioned aliens, the Adeptus Terra could care less how you run the planet.


Remain loyal and keep the tithes on time, and you'll have no problem with the Imperium.

I would even go more extreme. You don't have to be a law abiding citizen to be part of the imperium. Who knows what those nasty undershipper or underhivers are doing and still they are part of the culture. Sure it isn't the official intention of the system to have hidden death cults in their sewer systems but hey its there away.

Two of my favourite 40k characters – Cain and Amberely are basically decent individuals, rational, considered, believers in the Emperor and capable of loving relationships. They would not blink at burning a heretic or a Xenos collaborator – mainly because they know where it leads. By our standards they are fanatics, by the Imperiums they are bleeding heart liberals.

Ultimately, that's the point of this debate, I guess. The Imperium is not brutally opressive for fun. The world would not become a better place "if only people thought about it" and applied what looks like "basic common sense".

The vast majority of humanity are basically decent, rational individuals. But they have ended up (over the millenia) in a situation where the way they act is the rational response.

Regardless of religious connotations, the Emperor is physically real. Daemons are a real thing (albeit that this is not exactly common knowledge). Alien races are provably plotting to steal your world and devour you whole.

The phrase " more multicultural than we thought ? " is a good way to sum it up; that is not the same as anything we would call "multicultural", in the same way the imperium is not anything we would call "democratic" or "tolerant".

It does have space for a staggering variety of cultures, because ultimately it's a 'high culture' - essentially the off-planet trade and nobility and so on - and internal to your planet you can have whatever culture you like as long as the Imperium is not threatened or inconvenienced by it. If it is, it'll burn you down to the bedrock without a second's thought.

@Grimskul: To being with we've already removed Space Marines from the conversation earlier due to the fact that, baring two chapters, they're largely supposed to be atheists and have always been exempt from the worst repression of the Imperium.

Space Marines get away with a lot which would get a normal citizen of the Imperium executed.

Using Space Marines as a 'standard' for 'freedom' in the Imperium is like using the most privileged caste of a society and their freedoms and then determining the moral worth of the society by that. In other words it makes no sense.

Regardless of what some individual techpriests feel it does not change that their dogma, policy and officially instructed and taught doctrine is that the Emperor is the Omnissiah. Some no doubt do not share this opinion but they are an exception, the official position of the Mechanicus is that the Emperor is the Omnissiah. Arguing from exceptions doesn't change the dominant trend which exists, it'd be like pointing out that Nazi officers existed who did treat Jews well and then arguing that as a result official Nazi policy and doctrine was benevolent to Jews.

None of this changes that the Imperium compels and removes freedom to select one's own ideology and religion outside of these very large constraints;

Again the vast majority of people alive today, for example, would be executed by the Imperium for believing in what they believe in (ideologically as well as religiously). I would hope no one suggests that's a good thing.

@Mr Morden: But neither of the Empire's you used as an example would be described as 'liberal' by a historian or political scientist, so the label doesn't fit.

The Imperium man is far more violent and brutal, it resorts to far larger mass executions than either group ever did as regularly policy, there simply isn't a comparison between the Roman or British Empire (or any polity and human history) and the brutality of the Imperium. There is a reason one is fictional the Imperium is ridiculously brutal and murderous, in reality regimes can never become that completely totalitarian and vicious to their own populace because they depend on support from their populace, to some extent, to survive.

How do the High Lords form a representative government? They are a group of bureaucrats representing arms of state? If a country's high priest of their state religion, chief administrator, top general, top admiral, chief of the secret police and top scientist/industrialist got together would they automatically be a representative government? Of course not.

Also what I was referring to was the Sulsalid campaign where the Raptors wipe out a planet who's populace had overthrown their leaders, the reasons for this (and the extermination) we are told is because they were in favour of; "heretical ideals of progress and democracy"

Are you actually suggesting that there is nothing wrong with forcing people to hide their faith or ideology? To pretend to believe something which they don't? Are you honestly describing as liberal a regime in which you're best defense for its 'freedoms' is that you could lie and pretend to worship the Emperor but secretly not?

I agree the Imperium can be described as Human Multicultural, yes.

Also I do disagree with the notion that it is hard to judge people, I would never say so because then one might as well not discuss ethics or morality if one is willing to simply postulate that eventually it stops mattering and you can't make a judgement. But that is my opinion and no doubt the my academic background talking.

@Leth: That is a pity but, oh well, I just can't think of any in any of the lore I've ever read so I was wondering where this plurality you mentioned came from.

When you say side character how small a role do you mean though? Do you mean Space Marine sidekick-level or do you mean 'vaguely implied in the background'-minor level like the girl's from the Cain story? Cause if its the former then that doesn't really help much, still means its a case of Hide your Gays.

Don't see why there are few cases for it to come up in a nuanced way in fluff. In any novel where you're dealing with human main characters one of them could simply have a non-standard sexual orientation or gender-identity. Then you can have the added bonus of certain marginalized groups being able to identify strongly with the character in that regard.

@oldravenman3025: Of course 'remain loyal' also means practice no dogma/religion/ideology not sanctioned by the state.

So I'd be dead. All atheists would be dead. All Agnostics would be dead. All utilitarians would be dead. Any religious individual unwilling to abandon their faith for the Emperor would be dead. Any communist would be dead.

Amazing how many people we're killing for what they believe in? Almost as if the Imperium were intolerant.

@Iocarno24: Though I agree broadly with most of what you say I'd absolutely refute that the Imperium is in anyway a purely rational or necessary structure or entity. There are clearly large aspects of itself it could alter/amend/reform/change in order to become more efficient and is not some victim state which will instantly end the moment it changes.

in reality regimes can never become that completely totalitarian and vicious to their own populace because they depend on support from their populace, to some extent, to survive.

Mao's China, Cambodia, North Korea, Stalin’s Russia - and thats just off the top of my head and in recent history. Such regimes depend on the populace not to do anything out of fear - it works, has been proven to work many many times. Regimes normally fall to outside influences acting on the populace, not inernal revolutions - you need someone to supply a populace with hope, weapons and money to do so.

People are much much more likely to simply toe the line and survive - its human nature. I have never said the Imperium is good but their actions can be justified by the universe in which they live - the same as every dictator has done so - Look at Sulla (someone who is so often sadly ignored in history) - he terrorised the entire state, slaughtered tens of thousands, many more in warfare, put entire towns to the sword - all in the cause of protecting what he saw as the Roman way of life, then he retired. Rome was incredably brutal and certian relgions were proscribed, mainly if they were poltically active.

Ask anyone in history why they did the terrible things they did - not the great leaders and generals but the soldiers, the burecrats, the common man - it’s not because they were evil, it usually far more mundane - because that’s what they were told to do, because they feared that if they did not worse would happen to them, because they thought that by doing terrible things the world would be a better place.

I would contend that if we lived in their world most of us would act in much the same way.

The High Lords - as far as I aware we do not know how the High Lords rise to that role from within their own organisation or indeed the exact mechanism by which one becomes a High Lord except that there are lots of political machinations etc. They are not elected but then they do represent in some way the vast majority of the Imperium.

The Sulsalid campaign does not show that the Imperium cracks down on "democracy" but that if you overthrow the Imperial Governor you will be punished - If the Governor had been overthrown by a bunch of corrupt nobles or a corporate cabal - the Imperial authorities would have reacted in the same manner.

We know from other equally valid sources that planetary governments can be elected - some are, some are not.

Are you actually suggesting that there is nothing wrong with forcing people to hide their faith or ideology? To pretend to believe something which they don't? Are you honestly describing as liberal a regime in which you're best defense for its 'freedoms' is that you could lie and pretend to worship the Emperor but secretly not?

You will note that I never said anything about the moral value of the Imperium - just said it acted like historical human Empires have done and do now - or even worse - see North Korea, ISIS. They are liberal in the sense that they neither care nor interfere in the vast majoirty of a persons life.

Religon is one of the exceptions - but again - and you keep ignoring this - this is matter of survivial and reality -

You don't worship , lets say the Christian God in our world and choose another god or Gods what happens?

In the Imperium of Man, the wrong religion can damn you, your friends, your family, your city, your world.

Mao's China, Cambodia, North Korea, Stalin’s Russia - and thats just off the top of my head and in recent history. Such regimes depend on the populace not to do anything out of fear - it works, has been proven to work many many times. Regimes normally fall to outside influences acting on the populace, not inernal revolutions - you need someone to supply a populace with hope, weapons and money to do so.

Other than Cambodia all three those regimes enjoyed incredibly popular support from large swathes of the population due to the perception that they were supporting nationalistic values. Mao's China, Stalin's Russia and North Korea kill far less people, even percentile, than the Imperium does primarily because the Imperium wipes out entire planet's based on suspicions over individuals.

Literally the most important feature of those regimes is their ability to mobilize populace through support (generally propaganda) in order to support them. Why do you think individuals such as that always enjoy such high popularity within their own nations?

That is not to deny the role fear and repression played, at all, but it was targeted against sectors of the population (normally intelligentsia and such) who posed a threat, in North Korea, the Soviety Union and Maoist China the regimes always enjoyed broad and enormous support from the largest segment of the population; the lower economic classes, it is how they rise to power, they gain man power support.

The situation, historically, is far more complex than claiming they 'ruled by fear' and they certainly never doled out executions anywhere near the scale as the Imperium does.

The Khmer Rouge is a different story, there is a reason they were incredibly dependent on foreign aide.

I have never said the Imperium is good but their actions can be justified by the universe in which they live

If you're claiming they're justified in what they're doing how are you not claiming they are good? If they're justified then their behaviour is moral, or what do you mean by justified?

the same as every dictator has done so

We don't call dictator's justified.

Look at Sulla

Sulla wasn't justified. No academic work today is going to claim Sulla was justified. Rome was brutal, yes, completely agree there.

Ask anyone in history why they did the terrible things they did - not the great leaders and generals but the soldiers, the burecrats, the common man - it’s not because they were evil, it usually far more mundane - because that’s what they were told to do, because they feared that if they did not worse would happen to them, because they thought that by doing terrible things the world would be a better place.

I don't understand the point you're making here, of course people rarely believe what they are doing is evil but how does that change anything?

Hitler believed what he was doing is good, does that make Hitler justified?

I would contend that if we lived in their world most of us would act in much the same way.

Well I'd be dead, most of my family would be dead so I'd probably disagree with that notion.

The High Lords - as far as I aware we do not know how the High Lords rise to that role from within their own organisation or indeed the exact mechanism by which one becomes a High Lord except that there are lots of political machinations etc. They are not elected but then they do represent in some way the vast majority of the Imperium.

That's not a representative government, the broad populace are never given an opportunity to be involved in selecting their leadership.

Seriously the Imperium isn't representative or democratic at all, its highly totalitarian, that's part of its very aesthetic.

You will note that I never said anything about the moral value of the Imperium - just said it acted like historical human Empires have done and do now - or even worse - see North Korea, ISIS. They are liberal in the sense that they neither care nor interfere in the vast majoirty of a persons life.

No regime in human history has been as oppressive as the Imperium is. There is a reason one can only exist in fictional material.

Also the Imperium interferes in what one is allowed to think and believe, that's an enormously important and large part of a person's life so I can't imagine you're trying to denigrate it to simply being 'oh well guess I can't hold the beliefs and viewpoints I wish too, nothing major' to many billions of human beings our ability to select and make up our own minds concerning our thoughts, believes, values and ideologies are sacrosanct and vital to any kind of description of 'freedom' or 'liberal' order.

In the Imperium of Man, the wrong religion can damn you, your friends, your family, your city, your world.

It can also have no effect at all as seen in the case of Nicassar, Kroot, Orks and such.

Or you could simply not have a religion, like Tau or most Space Marines, in which case nothing horrible seems to happen.

Or what about if you're unsure and want to be an agnostic?

Or why stick with faith, what about ideology? What if you support worker's rights, minimum wage, fair working hours, representative government, an end to slavery, an end to torture, fair trials, impartial courts, a secular state?

None of this is important?

I'm not exactly sure what the argument now is, is what you're saying that the Imperium is at best as liberal as the British Empire and the Roman Empire? Cause neither of those are polities we'd call liberal.

I would seriously query that the Imperium - even as a state constantly at war, kills more people as a percentage than Stalins Russia or North Korea. And Fear was and is a constant element of how the country runs.

In Stalins Russia - no one was safe - it didn't matter who you were - the peasent in the out of the way village or the highest party offical - you and your family could be killed at any time - but like the Imperium o f Man, Stalin (and other dictators) justified it by internal and external threats. "These things must be done - to safeguard us all" exactly the same as the Imeprium.

Why do you think the Imperium does not enjoy massive popular support - what is different about it? It protects its citizens against threats, moral and physcial, provides basic needs and religious centres.

If you're claiming they're justified in what they're doing how are you not claiming they are good? If they're justified then their behaviour is moral, or what do you mean by justified?

Because the world is not black and white, sometimes good people do bad thngs to make a better world, sometimes bad people do good things - if the alternative is worse than the actions taken - how can it not be justified? I don't understand how context does not seem to matter -

We don't call dictator's justified.

Originaly the term Dictator was exactly that, epsecially when sued for a short term of emergency power
.

Sulla wasn't justified. No academic work today is going to claim Sulla was justified

Not sure I would agree, he tried but ultimately failed to confirm the power of the republic in a period of crisis and civil war. I love his epitath "No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full".

Well I'd be dead, most of my family would be dead so I'd probably disagree with that notion.

I wouldn't nor would my family or firends. - Are you saying you would be dead on relgious or plotical grounds?
What would you do to express your religion -speak out, hold protests, blow people up? The first might just get you punished or locked up, the last will get you killed.
Same question for your politics - again you can agitate for specific rights or ideas - but don;t be surpirsed if that gets you investigated, beaten, imprisoned or perhaps killed. On some worlds many of the rights you are saying are required (although almost all are extremely rare except in the most recent history and even then patchy) would be in place, some they wouldn;t.

What if you support worker's rights, minimum wage, fair working hours, representative government, an end to slavery, an end to torture, fair trials, impartial courts, a secular state?

How many states in the world today uphold all or indeed most of these?

No regime in human history has been as oppressive as the Imperium is

Highly debatable - again Khmer Rouge? Stalin, Hitler, - you did not have religious or politcial freedom in any of these states.

It can also have no effect at all as seen in the case of Nicassar, Kroot, Orks and such.

Really - Orks? They make the imperium look like a fun place to live if you happen to be an ensalved human or other race, - you are branded, kept naked with minimum food and worked till death - and then they eat you - if you are lucky, subject to torture for laughs - thats the reality of the Ork world - but the Orks as they ar enot human don;t care - they exist for violence and have no real fear - they haev been described in universe as the perfect culture - but to exisit in it - you have to be a Ork.

Kroot are subject to the perils of the warp, mutation, etc

We donlt know about the Nicassar - we have a few pages that tell us aboout them - how do you knwo they don't have a structure to elimnate weak psykers, condcut any worship etc?

Tau - small race in a big universe - the Tau - as yourself said are a caste system that imposes your role from birth - are you taking that as a model for a multicutural, liberal soceity? They are blunt as a race so limited exposure to the perils of the warp - once Chaos Cults start arising on conquered human wolrds we will see how they react? They might need to allow the former Imperials to police Psykers in the old ways.

We are actually agreeing - I am saying that the Imperium is not liberal or no more so than any other great Empire, (although in some areas - role of women, sexual identiy, etc they are more advanced than many nations today) but is multicutural.



Finally lets look at the OP

Could it be that for all its military/ dictatorial looks, the Imperium is in fact multicultural and open to pluralism

I would say yes, yes it is?

In all those cases history in written by the victors.

For the love of God, Anemone, what the heck do you want to hear? That Imperium is evil-evil-evil nazi regime with the Hitler in disguise sitting on the Golden Throne? You're tackling obvious points, which have been discussed gazillion of times.

Imperium of Man is as liberal as it can possibly be in a galaxy where almost anything tried to shoot, kill, chop and eat a man for thousands and thousands of years. I'd actually wish it'd be less liberal than it is now in the official fluff.

This is from 1d4chan, and sums up the situation of the Imperium rather well, I think:

1d4chan wrote:
The Imperium isn’t grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn’t survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single s**t decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man, woman and child suffering a s**t life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.

@Mr Morden:

I would seriously query that the Imperium - even as a state constantly at war, kills more people as a percentage than Stalins Russia or North Korea. And Fear was and is a constant element of how the country runs.

I wouldn't, at all, since in the real world we don't use as hyperbolic statistics as the writers of Warhammer are fond of.

Fear was an element, as I said, but it was always balanced by ensuring mass support from the larger segments of the populace. Always.

In Stalins Russia - no one was safe - it didn't matter who you were - the peasent in the out of the way village or the highest party offical - you and your family could be killed at any time - but like the Imperium o f Man, Stalin (and other dictators) justified it by internal and external threats. "These things must be done - to safeguard us all" exactly the same as the Imeprium.

Simply not true, Stalin (because he lived in the real world) simply had limitations on what level of executions he could perform if he wished to remain in power. To use a simple example; whilst the Imperium destroys multiple populated planets on a regular enough basis Stalin could never, for example, wipe out the entire population of a Soviet Metropole or Urban Centre since his power base would not survive that degree of indiscriminate execution.

Its a very simple and obvious difference.

Why do you think the Imperium does not enjoy massive popular support - what is different about it? It protects its citizens against threats, moral and physcial, provides basic needs and religious centres.

When did I say the Imperium doesn't enjoy massive popular support?

I believe the Imperium enjoys massive popular support for the exact same reasons Hitler's regime, Stalin's regime and other brutal regimes did. Never disputed its popular support.

Because the world is not black and white, sometimes good people do bad thngs to make a better world, sometimes bad people do good things - if the alternative is worse than the actions taken - how can it not be justified? I don't understand how context does not seem to matter -

No, but that's not how ethical reasoning works, if you're arguing that a person, a moral person, had to take a certain action at a point in time then you are arguing it was a moral action;

Which is it, are you saying their actions are moral or not?

Originaly the term Dictator was exactly that, epsecially when sued for a short term of emergency power

That's not a response to the point really.

Historically slavery was permitted and optimist meant 'belief we lived in the most ideal possible world' but that does not mean that slavery is now morally justified or that the word optimist retains its same meaning.

The fact remains that no academic today writes of dictators as justified.

So what are you saying, are you saying dictators are justified or not?

Not sure I would agree

That is your opinion but I am afraid the bulk of academic literature would disagree with you and I am far more inclined to believe they are correct then a single online opinion.

Additionally how does confirming the power of the Republic (whether he succeeded or not) justify his actions morally? On what ethical grounds are you justifying him here?

Are you saying you would be dead on relgious or plotical grounds?

Both. I must admit this discussion has become rather grim now, but in a humorous way, discussing how I, my friends and family would be killed for our views. At least its only hypothetical.

What would you do to express your religion

Speak out, attend my religious gatherings, discuss my faith with interested parties, petition for freedom of religion and religious expression and continue ethical discussions concerning issues of theodicy and such. Of course I'd also deny any divinity of the Emperor and point out that he has no rational argumentation to support his opinions since he relies on one of the oldest fallacies in history, since the times of Plato.

How many states in the world today uphold all or indeed most of these?

Again what does this have to do with anything?

If I were to argue for the ethical right for egalitarian treatment would the answer; "But what about Saudi Arabia?" Mean anything? Of course not.

you did not have religious or politcial freedom in any of these states.

Simply incorrect. You had few religious and political freedoms (although admittedly mostly political, religious persecution took a back seat compared to politics in those regimes, though of course still horrible). There is simply no polity in human history which has no political or religious freedom.

Really - Orks?

I don't know how but you seem to have confused the point of this response, apologies if I was unclear then, I'll give a more explicit explanation;

You argued that the Imperium's religious intolerance was justified because, unlike here, it would damn you.

Then I pointed out that numerous groups exist (Orks and Kroot) who do not become damned due to their religion.

Additionally groups like the Tau and Space Marines are atheists and are not damned either.

The point had nothing to do with 'benevolent' regimes, it was about your point concerning religion.

once Chaos Cults start arising on conquered human wolrds we will see how they react?

Well we already have one example of it where they put a stop to a regular ritual war on a planet and then the Word Bearers attack them and they engage in a conflict so...apparently they attempt to defend the human population of the planet.

They might need to allow the former Imperials to police Psykers in the old ways.

They haven't had to police the Nicassar yet.

but is multicutural.

Human multicultural

I would say yes, yes it is?

I would say it is human multicultural and open only to a degree of pluralism (a narrower form than societies I would call pluralistic here)

Where we differ Mr Morden is that I do not believe the Imperium is 'justified' or 'good' in any moral sense. I do not believe it is egalitarian nor do I believe it is pluralistic or inclusive. I believe it is a totalitarian, corrupt, repressive, xenocidal, expansionist, hate-mongering, racist state which happily promotes the concept of slaughtering children.

I simply can't agree, nor see reason to agree, with that position.

This is particularly in light of how afraid I am when I see people online advocate racial genocide and child murdering as 'moral'. Particularly since the understanding I have gained from Warhammer fluff over the years is that the Imperium is a horrible place and not to be seen as great or heroic but as horrid and repulsive.

Additionally the commonly bandied around 'everyone is evil' rings hollow when, seemingly, online fans continue to claim the Imperium is justified in everything it does and thus not evil.

@Ross_R:

That Imperium is evil-evil-evil nazi regime with the Hitler in disguise sitting on the Golden Throne? You're tackling obvious points, which have been discussed gazillion of times.

Literally no-one here, but me, has said that. So I have no idea what you're even referring to. You, yourself, literally in your next paragraph refute this very statement.

Also the Emperor is not Hitler in disguise, he's a far worse monstrosity by body-count and advocates the same repugnant conception of totalitarian authority and racial superiority. Not to mention Manifest Destiny. The sort of person who uses the arguments uses to justify the deaths of the Amerindians, the Harero, the Native Americans, the Jews and so many other billions of people throughout history;

The argument that the 'other' is a cockroach you should crush beneath your boot, take their things and murder them to the last innocent child. If you wish to believe this is a 'good' thing then I am deeply concerned, as I continue to be by the online fanbase of this game. Nothing has put me off 40k more than discovering its online fanbase appears to believe the Imperium is justified in the vast majority of what it does.

Imperium of Man is as liberal as it can possibly

Factually incorrect and unverifiable

I'd actually wish it'd be less liberal than it is now in the official fluff.

I continue to be surprised and concerned

@Psiensis:

This is from 1d4chan, and sums up the situation of the Imperium rather well, I think:

1) 1d4chan is reliable for factual information?

2) Doesn't that outright contradict statements by Vulkan and others that the Imperium has degraded and should improve itself?

3) Also simply not true, and again unverifiable

Then again 1d4chan is a site which writes gleefully about the murder of surrendering non-combatants. I guess we can always use more War Crimes in our lives.

 Warzoner wrote:
Hi people. So, these last days I was looking back at my old copies of several codex, rulebooks, etc., and a small thought occured to me : what if the Imperium was in fact multicultural ?

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that there is a strong, core, cultural pillar in the Imperium (which is the Imperial creed), but still, when you look at the different factions that compose the Imperium, you can't help but notice how many of them are different from each other.

For example, look at the Vostroyans, the Tarlarns and the Catachans. All are Imperial, yet each has it's own traditions and way of life and views about the galaxy.

Another more bleeding obvious example are the Adeptus Astartes chapters, even those that are Codex Astartes followers.

Could it be that for all its military/ dictatorial looks, the Imperium is in fact multicultural and open to pluralism (regarding human factions, of course) ?

Well, the Imperium of Man is, basically, an "Empire" according traditionalist views. The same traditionalist concept of the "Empire" regards a spiritual/temporal Principle which is the centre of the orbit of independent "objects" (in the political theory the various estates, domains and realms within the Empire). Translating to WH40K, therefore, insofar each element of the Empire worships the Emperor, it is a full part of the system based on the Principle (the Divinity of the Emperor and the adherence to His rule) and on the subjects orbitating around it. No cultural or even national elements have to be common to all (if any) element of the Empire. Therefore, until a planet (or a continent o a sub-continental realm) worship the Emperor and follows His rule, this realm is part of the Imperium. Thus, the actual unifying network, far more than Administratum, is the Ecclesiarchy, whose presence defines the belonging of the individual realm to the Empire.
A pretty fair term of comparison is the Catholic Church, especially after the Second Vatican Council: the Principle is the authority of the Pope as Christ's Vicar and Peter's successors, the "orbitating objects" are the local dioceses, monastic orders, and so on, all autonomous and characterized by their own "culture" and way of life (of course within Catholic restraints, in this case).

Just to say - fun discussion

I am, now a little confused about what we are arguing about!

We both agree that the Imperium as a human Empire is multicultural - which was the whole point of the OP?

Am I right in saying that you think that Imperium's policies cannot be justified and hence it is "evil" from the point of view of us, -the immensely privileged inhabitants of relatively advanced civilisation. Also that we should judge all historical figures, cultures and organisation from the same point of view and not take into account the world they live in?

Simply not true, Stalin (because he lived in the real world) simply had limitations on what level of executions he could perform if he wished to remain in power. To use a simple example; whilst the Imperium destroys multiple populated planets on a regular enough basis Stalin could never, for example, wipe out the entire population of a Soviet Metropole or Urban Centre since his power base would not survive that degree of indiscriminate execution.

Stalin, Mao and others killed huge swathes of people, and contrary to your previous statement – often targeted the average man or woman. In terms of scale – Stalin did things big

After the brief Nazi occupation of the Caucasus, the entire population of five of the small highland peoples and the Crimean Tatars – more than a million people in total – were deported without notice or any opportunity to take their possessions. As a result of Stalin's lack of trust in the loyalty of particular ethnicities, ethnic groups such as the Soviet Koreans, the Volga Germans, the Crimean Tatars, the Chechens, and many Poles were forcibly moved out of strategic areas and relocated to places in the central Soviet Union, especially Kazakhstan in Soviet Central Asia. By some estimates, hundreds of thousands of deportees may have died en route. According to official Soviet estimates, more than 14 million people passed through the Gulag from 1929 to 1953, with a further 7 to 8 million being deported and exiled to remote areas of the Soviet Union (including the entire nationalities in several cases]

Also remember that Stalin said: “There are no Soviet prisoners of war, only traitors.” In respect to Order No.270. That, IIRC included his own son.

If you're arguing that a person, a moral person, had to take a certain action at a point in time then you are arguing it was a moral action; Which is it, are you saying their actions are moral or not?

I don’t quite understand it but if you are asking if I feel that the actions that say Amberly takes are justified within her own universe - I would say yes, yes they are:

Example: She allows genestealer infected Tau to be taken back to their people in the hope that the Hive Fleets are deflected towards Tau Space.

That seems perfectly reasonable for someone making decisions at the level she does and in order to save entire planetary populations.

So what are you saying, are you saying dictators are justified or not?

A dictatorship under the old meaning could be justified and in fact we have the same thing now during wartime when states exert emergency powers that give power to one person or a small group.

A dictatorship under the modern meaning – I can’t think of a reasonable justification for one for us - but a state at constant war for 10,000 years - thats something we simply cant understand.

Again what does this have to do with anything?

Because I think you are making moral / value judgements of whether historical and fictional empires are moral or liberal – I am not.

You have similar or more religious or political freedoms in the Imperium as you did under dictatorships – I am not sure why you think there are none – most religions could likely be adjusted to fit the Imperial religion which is what an entire organisation within the Imperium does. All relgiions have changed and adpated ove the centuries and millenia - none are what they were when they first started.

You argued that the Imperium's religious intolerance was justified because, unlike here, it would damn you.
Then I pointed out that numerous groups exist (Orks and Kroot) who do not become damned due to their religion.
Additionally groups like the Tau and Space Marines are atheists and are not damned either.

If Orks fall into the worship of Chaos – they are equally damned, same with Kroot – as do those that consume warp tainted meat, in btoh cases the culture kills the tainted ones - same as the Imperium

Space Marines can be damned – little thing called the Horus Heresy happened! They have to be internally policed and watched by themselves and the Inquisition.

Tau – their bluntness has protected them so far but as they emerge into the greater galaxy – this will change – a full blown Chaos Cult erupting on a human dominated sept world or two will be a disaster. They are having to become more and more aware of the reality of the Warp and what it can do to races like Humanity.

They haven't had to police the Nicassar yet

That we know of - but then the Tau may be using mind control helmits on the Vespid - could they do other things with the Nicassar out of sight,

Or the Nicassar must police themselves somehow – all psychic races have to do so somehow – Eldar have their Path system, Orks have their Gods and brutal culture that simply does not allow non-compliance with orkiness. We just don’t know the details yet. It may be they have an equally brutal internal system to the Imperium or something like the Caste system – we don’t know.

Where we differ Mr Morden is that I do not believe the Imperium is 'justified' or 'good' in any moral sense. I do not believe it is egalitarian nor do I believe it is pluralistic or inclusive. I believe it is a totalitarian, corrupt, repressive, xenocidal, expansionist, hate-mongering, racist state which happily promotes the concept of slaughtering children.
I simply can't agree, nor see reason to agree, with that position.
This is particularly in light of how afraid I am when I see people online advocate racial genocide and child murdering as 'moral'. Particularly since the understanding I have gained from Warhammer fluff over the years is that the Imperium is a horrible place and not to be seen as great or heroic but as horrid and repulsive.
Additionally the commonly bandied around 'everyone is evil' rings hollow when, seemingly, online fans continue to claim the Imperium is justified in everything it does and thus not evil.

As a fictional state in a fictional universe, when I read about the characters and listen to their arguments and justifications – it all makes sense to me. It’s often a horrible place, but it’s often not when BL authors actually try to write something other than bolter porn.

Where you and I also differ is things like “Happily promotes the concept of slaughtering children” – no they don’t do it happily, they do it because (rightly or wrongly) they believe it must be done – they have no other choice.

It reminds me of another Sci-fi universe - Trek - and in particular the DS9 episode In the Pale Moonlight - a much lighter universe - well DS9 goes deeper and darker into it

In the Pale Moon Light (S:6 E:19) Brilliant episode - and Sisko's last words in the episode sum up exactly how and why the Imperium does what it does. in my view:

"That was my first moment of real doubt, when I started to wonder if the whole thing was a mistake. So I went back to my office. And there was a new casualty list waiting for me. People are dying out there every day! Entire worlds are struggling for their freedom! And here I am still worrying about the finer points of morality! No, I had to keep my eye on the ball! Winning the war, stopping the bloodshed, those were the priorities! So I pushed on. And every time another doubt appeared before me, I just found another way to shove it aside."

So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover up the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning of all... I think I can live with it... And if I had to do it all over again... I would. Garak was right about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it.

As the actor who plays Garek says:

In a separate interview, Robinson made a similar point, stating that this episode demonstrated how Deep Space Nine explored more difficult issues than the other Star Trek series. He commented, "[B]asically it exposes the American innocence, that we want to do these things in the world, but we're not really willing to take the consequences of our actions, and sometimes we have to do very dirty things, and we have to hurt people, and we pretend that that doesn't exist, that Americans would never do that. We dealt with issues like that and I don't think... you know... the other shows really went as far as we did."

@Mr Morden:

Just to say - fun discussion

I will have to admit I do not find it fun personally, simply continues to increase my ever-growing dread at what people are happy to support and laud. But I'm in a clear minority, not that anything of that changes my opinion, since minority and majority has no bearing on right or wrong.

We both agree that the Imperium as a human Empire is multicultural - which was the whole point of the OP?

You have also asserted it is open and pluralistic, which I deny and see a complete lack of evidence for, and additionally you've claimed the Imperium to be a moral regime which I also disagree with.

Am I right in saying that you think that Imperium's policies cannot be justified and hence it is "evil" from the point of view of us, -the immensely privileged inhabitants of relatively advanced civilisation. Also that we should judge all historical figures, cultures and organisation from the same point of view and not take into account the world they live in?

It is 'evil' from the point of view of ethical reasoning; the same as Alexander, Hitler and billions of others.

Time period is not an excuse to immorality, otherwise the concept of morality is pointless.

Stalin, Mao and others killed huge swathes of people, and contrary to your previous statement – often targeted the average man or woman. In terms of scale – Stalin did things big

This statement does not at all dispute what I said; neither Stalin, Hitler or Mao ever executed the entire population of one of their Urban Centers, they could not, whereas the Imperium can.

Clear difference.

Also remember that Stalin said: “There are no Soviet prisoners of war, only traitors.” In respect to Order No.270. That, IIRC included his own son.

Yes he did say this; but despite it there were Soviet prisoners of war and not nearly all of them were executed. Political rhetoric changes nothing of the reality. In reality a successful leader, even like Stalin, cannot kill as many of his supporters as the Imperium does. Hence why Stalin never had an entire Major Urban Center destroyed.

Example: She allows genestealer infected Tau to be taken back to their people in the hope that the Hive Fleets are deflected towards Tau Space.

That seems perfectly reasonable for someone making decisions at the level she does and in order to save entire planetary populations.

Yes, we disagree completely then, that is a war crime and horrible, it is akin to the spreading of a biological disease to kill off an entire country.

Would you have approved of a biological agent being introduced which killed all Germans in World War 2?

A dictatorship under the old meaning could be justified and in fact we have the same thing now during wartime when states exert emergency powers that give power to one person or a small group.

A dictatorship under the modern meaning – I can’t think of a reasonable justification for one for us - but a state at constant war for 10,000 years - thats something we simply cant understand.

Not how ethical reasoning works.

Also, again, no academic would agree with you, we do not term any historical dictatorship as being 'justified' we accept that they happened, that they were wrong, but that they still happened.

I am not sure why you think there are none

By definition there is no religious freedom because you must follow the state-sanctioned religion. That is literally just a fact.

As for political freedoms; I never said they had 'none' I just don't describe them as liberal or progressive.

Space Marines can be damned – little thing called the Horus Heresy happened! They have to be internally policed and watched by themselves and the Inquisition.

Based on this reasoning all Space Marines should be forced to convert to the religion of the Emperor.

Which is it; is the Imperium right to kill all atheists and agnostics or is it not liberal to do so?

Tau – their bluntness has protected them so far but as they emerge into the greater galaxy – this will change – a full blown Chaos Cult erupting on a human dominated sept world or two will be a disaster. They are having to become more and more aware of the reality of the Warp and what it can do to races like Humanity.

Speculation.

Where you and I also differ is things like “Happily promotes the concept of slaughtering children” – no they don’t do it happily, they do it because (rightly or wrongly) they believe it must be done – they have no other choice.

They do it happily, they teach individuals to see it as a glorious religious undertaking to kill all other life and creeds in the galaxy.

It is literally seen as an honourable higher calling and Manifest Destiny. It is done very happily and with no remorse most of the time. Why do you think so much of the fanbase expresses such joy at the massacre of non-humans? Or the death of anything contrary to the Imperium?

You can't deny they do it happily, they literally teach it as a creed of ultimate good. You yourself have mentioned before in the Cain series a child's nursery rhyme about making fun of burning heretics.

It is exactly that worst kind of 'othering', that disgusting, depressing, stomach-churning, genocide inducing degradation of something but on a scale a thousand times worse than anything we've ever had on earth. It's horrific and wrong, completely, and yet many seem to admire and desire it.

At least it puts to rest any doubts I have; the prevailing opinion here is clearly not 'everyone's bad' it remains 'everyone but the Imperium is bad,'.

As for the Star Trek bit; thank goodness in actual war we don't take that position (that all that matters is winning by any means possible) since then we should be killing each other constantly with biological weapons, nuclear weapons and worse simply in the name of ultimate victory. Thank goodness its a naive fictional concept which finds no purchase in actual academic discourse on war.

 Anemone wrote:
@Mr Morden:

Its not that simple - its more akin to the Roman Empire where the Emperor as supreme deity is overlaid onto any existing structure.

And like all Empires which practiced religious persecution the Roman Empire murdered and oppressed groups in order to force their compliance through fear. Surely you aren't saying this is a good thing?

I'm just not quite sure what your point is, none of this changes that the Imperium horribly oppresses and compels obedience through threat of death against any who desires to believe (whether religious or ideological since atheists and agnostics would be killed to) something different. Surely you aren't defending that as liberal or good?

The Imperium is mulit-cultural and liberal only in the same way as the Roman and British empires was

But no historian alive today would describe either of those Empires as 'Liberal', 'Multicultural' or 'Inclusive'. Indeed in history an important focus particularly with British colonial mandates and holdings is exactly how extensive, intrusive and complex the influence they had was. It was far from a 'hand's off' rulership method, in modern historical academia no-one would accept a statement like 'The British Empire permitted colonies to go on exactly as they wished save for a few core rules' since its utterly untrue, no Empire in history has ruled over holdings without incredibly changing, altering and shifting the culture, legal system, politics and beliefs of the area.

Actually the Roman empire in terms of religious belief was incredibly tolerant! Even after the deification of the Emperor (aka Imperial Cult), most common people outside Rome itself never followed the Imperial Cult outside of the ruling elite. The Imperial cults was also more the deification of already dead Emperors and Heroic individuals for political purposes and even this was widely recognised by it's practitioners. The practice continued into early Christianity, influenced the eventual deification of Christ and also early Christianities deification of Saints (seen many individuals simply replaced their pagan gods with saints). Most people were left to follow their own beliefs and cultures until the arrival of early Christianity, which in turn eventually had to turn a blind eye to pagan practices as long as they were done under the image of the christian faith.

You also say Rome forced compliance of religion and culture using fear, in reality the opposite was more often true, Rome itself would appropriate other cultures traditions to make other cultures feel more roman. You do see religious cults travelling the empire, such as Egyptian Cults rising in Britain etc but they were mostly taken up and abandoned due to whatever seemed fashionable. The very reason the Roman empire was successful was because it allowed a wide variety of cultures! By comparison it was Carthage's downfall as they were the precise opposite, they would often try to force cultural and religious conversion which is why they were so viciously resisted in Iberia and felt even their own colonists who adopted slightly different religious and cultural practices were basically foreigners and not to be trusted (aka Hannibal). Modern historians actually do call the Roman Empire extremely multicultural, if anything more multicultural than many modern progressive western societies.

Within the Roman Empire itself, reactions to troublesome religions such a Druidism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism and early Christianity wasn't the result of religious or cultural intolerance, but instead the fact they were used as a manner to create and support armed uprisings. Akin to how Extremist Islam is used today and the western world reaction to it. By comparison the British Empire was incredibly intolerant and racist, seeing they looked down on anyone who wasn't Western European or lived in the European Manner. You do have the issue of the failed Roman cities in Britain, but that's more of an issue of a lack of infrastructure to support Mediterranean style towns and Cities rather than religious or cultural reasons.

Now going back to the Imperium of Man, they are very similar, albeit they require that the only religions followed are either the worship of the God Emperor or worship of the Machine God. The intolerance to xeno's is no different, in their minds, to an intolerance in tribal societies to a lion mauling and eating half a village. Even then they have many exceptions to the rule and on some worlds xenos are traded with and some xenos in a limited extent even live within the imperium. Also the worship of the God Emperor is so diverse and adaptable that if you went from one world to another their religious beliefs and legends would be completely different. Most basic human probably have never even heard of him. A lack of tolerance to Chaos is basically the same, you can't call them intolerant for not tolerating religions or cultures that are trying to kill and destroy them.

Also I feel your main mistake is trying to analyse cultures based on your own personal and incredibly modern ethics and morals. The very first rule in anthropology and studying cultures and societies in general is not to place your own morals or beliefs onto them, that will often twist your view. The Imperium knows very well, much of what it does is horrific and evil, but it's there to save mankind as a whole rather than raise the standards of an individuals living. That's the job of a planets population to do themselves if they wish.

If it really worries you / upsets you - we can desist the conversation - thats not the point of these forums!

This is all about a fictional universe, its just a dark fantasy - these can be unsettling.

@Baldeagle91: Don't take any of this personally, our disagreements and such can never have a bearing on how we are as people, but to say I disagree is an understatement.

Your points about Rome are incredibly naive, bordering on utopian in how you describe them, and don't gel with historical academia on the Roman Empire at all, they sound more like a pop-history book concerning Rome.

The Roman Empire was relatively tolerant for its time period. That doesn't change how horrible a place it was. Nor was it unique in this regard, all regimes were like that. Calling it a religiously tolerant state or permitting anything resembling blanker religious freedom is simply incorrect.

But since we're not here to discuss history I'll leave it at that.

As for the worship of the God-Emperor; it is still a state-sanctioned religion which permits no alternative. You can dress it up however you wish but nothing will change that. It is literally a theocratic state with a single state-sanctioned religion where failure to embrace said faith is punishable by death.

I am glad I do not live in a place like that.

As for the comments surrounding anthropology and sociology; first of all I'm assuming you're argument isn't pure subjectivity since, if it is, we'd have to argue about that first since I reject that notion, putting aside that it is true that for anthropology we want to look at what is there to understand it but that doesn't remove moral judgements either;

When seeking to understand why Hitler did X or a specific Culture did Y we do not want our morality to interfere with our understanding, in history or anthropology, however that doesn't change our moral judgement of it either. We separate them into two separate faculties.

Honestly though, this is it for me, since its now clear that literally what's being argued for is that the Imperium is 'good' and 'liberal' and 'moral' I have no more interest or energy since how obviously and patently false those all are.

I have, at least, confirmed by fears that the online fanbase really doesn't believe 'everyone is evil' but simply believes 'everyone but the Imperium is evil'

@Mr Morden: Firstly, thank you for the consideration, that is very kind of you.

However dark doesn't bother me, what bothers me is people arguing child murder, class discrimination, slavery, sexual slavery and genocide are moral. I play Sisters, an army of fanatical, genocidal monsters. I have no problem playing Sisters and I love my army. I just would never ever describe my army as 'moral', 'liberal', 'multicultural', 'justified' or 'inclusive'.

I'm astonished so many people online seem to genuinely believe the Imperium is 'good'. I'm equally astonished since many of them seem to claim on some places 'everyone's evil' and then other places insist 'the Imperium is the only good guy'

That being said I will probably desist soon simply because my capacity for arguing the nuance of gleefully murdering surrendering non-combatants has its limits.

The offer is genuinely appreciated though, thank you.

 Anemone wrote:

@Ross_R:

....

Imperium of Man is as liberal as it can possibly

Factually incorrect and unverifiable

I'd actually wish it'd be less liberal than it is now in the official fluff.

I continue to be surprised and concerned

Well, if my point of view is unverifiable, this means the opposite one - yours- is unverifiable as well. /thread?

And I surely don't know why are you surprised. You fail to see the obvious.

The Imperium of Man is a theocratic Empire (i.e. a tradionalist-oriented empire), definitively not a theocratic State. It has none of the features a modern State has.

 Anemone wrote:
@Baldeagle91: Don't take any of this personally, our disagreements and such can never have a bearing on how we are as people, but to say I disagree is an understatement.

Your points about Rome are incredibly naive, bordering on utopian in how you describe them, and don't gel with historical academia on the Roman Empire at all, they sound more like a pop-history book concerning Rome.

The Roman Empire was relatively tolerant for its time period. That doesn't change how horrible a place it was. Nor was it unique in this regard, all regimes were like that. Calling it a religiously tolerant state or permitting anything resembling blanker religious freedom is simply incorrect.

But since we're not here to discuss history I'll leave it at that.

As for the worship of the God-Emperor; it is still a state-sanctioned religion which permits no alternative. You can dress it up however you wish but nothing will change that. It is literally a theocratic state with a single state-sanctioned religion where failure to embrace said faith is punishable by death.

I am glad I do not live in a place like that.

As for the comments surrounding anthropology and sociology; first of all I'm assuming you're argument isn't pure subjectivity since, if it is, we'd have to argue about that first since I reject that notion, putting aside that it is true that for anthropology we want to look at what is there to understand it but that doesn't remove moral judgements either;

When seeking to understand why Hitler did X or a specific Culture did Y we do not want our morality to interfere with our understanding, in history or anthropology, however that doesn't change our moral judgement of it either. We separate them into two separate faculties.

Honestly though, this is it for me, since its now clear that literally what's being argued for is that the Imperium is 'good' and 'liberal' and 'moral' I have no more interest or energy since how obviously and patently false those all are.

I have, at least, confirmed by fears that the online fanbase really doesn't believe 'everyone is evil' but simply believes 'everyone but the Imperium is evil'.

While the Roman Empire indeed had it's nasty moments, religious and cultural freedom was something generally universally agreed on by virtually all academics and historians. It was far by perfect but if you look from Greece, to Briton, to Gaul, to Iberia, to north africa to the near east and persia, all of their conquered area's had religious and cultural freedom. In fact the least cultural freedom was within Rome itself where it took hundreds of years for the lower classes to attain rights denied to them via religion. It's why you see the masses often continuing to live basically unchanged. The one exception would be in the incredibly early years of Rome during the kingdom and republic, where the defeat of a city meant the defeat of their cities 'god'. It's extremely confusing seeing you could have two gods with the same role and name but seen as different due to their host city/town. It eventually got so complicated and confusing the Romans completely reformed their religious system.

Also having studied Roman history for years and having written multiple dissertations on it I'm fairly confident I'm qualified to say the Romans were not afraid to create religious practices to directly affect political behaviour and switch within a generation or two whether it was a political, social or deeply religious act. Religion was used at a time to deny plebeians political representation within and outside Rome, while allied nations within the empire were given free reign to rule as they wised within certain boundaries (sound familiar?).

Stating "That doesn't change how horrible a place it was" doesn't also mean anything. The meadows in Nottingham is a horrible place, east LA is a horrible place, the medieval period was a horrible place, pre-historic Europe was a horrible place. You can have multiculturalism with murder, slaves and gladiatorial combat, you seem to be confusing multiculturalism with political correctness and an completely ethical state. Would you argue that the UK isn't multicultural because it encourage immigration from the empire and commonwealth for dirt cheap (almost slave) labour after WW2? Have a trip to Leicester and you know off the bat it's multicultural!

Back to 40k.... actually in the Imperium there is an alternative to the God Emperor... the Machine God.... which while in theory being the same being it's openly known by everyone involved this is merely a political move to keep production on forge worlds going along. Also the Imperial Faith in practice has very few guidlines. On some worlds the Emperor is seen as multiple different deities, others he is not a physical being, others he is all powerful, others he has very human flaws. In reality often all it means for most worlds is keeping their own religion but changing all the names and figureheads to represent the God Emperor. Sometimes this is extremely conscious to the worshippers, other times it is not.

And yes by our definition the Imperium is evil, but by ancient standards for a multitude of reasons our current society is evil, philosophically even by todays standards we are evil. Simply stating *The Imperium can't be multicultural because it is evil* is an incredibly weak argument. And the online community has long since felt the Imperium is incredibly "evil", but one of the slightly better ones, by comparison Tau used to be Mary Sues, but even now they're also seen as evil due to their actions. The Imperium, like any nation or state in a 'total war' will commit even actions due to the belief they are necessary evils, every nation on the planet has done such actions, you could philosophically argue a necessary evil action is not really evil, but I'm not going to continue to argue the meaning of evil.

If you had a race of trillions to protect, and the required action that was to sacrifice a few billion and reduce many more to slavery would you do it? Even then it still doesn't deny multiculturalism.

However dark doesn't bother me, what bothers me is people arguing child murder, class discrimination, slavery, sexual slavery and genocide are moral. I play Sisters, an army of fanatical, genocidal monsters. I have no problem playing Sisters and I love my army. I just would never ever describe my army as 'moral', 'liberal', 'multicultural', 'justified' or 'inclusive'.

Again, I'm not arguing the Imperium is a good place. I would certainly never justify the Imperium as 'moral'. But 'moral' and 'necessary' aren't necessarily the same thing; executing basically innocent civilians, man, woman and child, on the grounds of what might happen due to the exposure to the daemonic a crime against humanity. No excuses.

But, and here's the really crappy thing in the 41st millennium, it's usually the best option. Because the Imperium has lost cities, worlds, sectors, armies and chapters to darkness and corruption when it tried to do things the other way.

That's, ultimately, the worst thing about Inquisitors. They're educated individuals. Most of them have a decent understanding of philosophy and ethics. And despite whatever positive instincts they have, they are voluntarily choosing to the worst mass-murderers, tyrants and oppressors in the history of the species. Because it's the only option for the history of the species not ending with them.

I have, at least, confirmed by fears that the online fanbase really doesn't believe 'everyone is evil' but simply believes 'everyone but the Imperium is evil'

Not even slightly. 40k is a setting where there essentially are no good guys. Even the supposed 'nice guy' factions have some serious character flaws their respective fans tend to gloss over.

Some people are better than others. Some worlds are better places to live than others. It's probably possible (somewhere) to find an Imperial world which hasn't been attacked in a few millennia which is genuinely a nice, pretty civilised place even by modern standards. But that's mostly due to the vagaries of fate and the actions of the planet's inhabitants, not the Imperium at large.

@Ross_R:

Well, if my point of view is unverifiable, this means the opposite one - yours- is unverifiable as well. /thread?

That really isn't how rational argumentation works. A point of view being unverifiable has no necessary causal link on an opposing point of view, they might be related, or they might not, but you can't simply claim they're related and have it count as fact.

And I surely don't know why are you surprised. You fail to see the obvious.

Because I clearly expect better of people than I should?

The Imperium of Man is a theocratic Empire (i.e. a tradionalist-oriented empire), definitively not a theocratic State. It has none of the features a modern State has.

Let's call it a polity then so there is no ambiguity

@Baldeagle91:

In fact the least cultural freedom was within Rome itself where it took hundreds of years for the lower classes to attain rights denied to them via religion

So directly contrary to the prior stated bit? Not to mention clashes with Judaism or Christianity, the persecution of the Bacchanals, Druidism and then later, after the reformation to Christianity, the persecution of pagans.

You can have multiculturalism with murder, slaves and gladiatorial combat, you seem to be confusing multiculturalism with political correctness and an completely ethical state

No you seem to be following the argument incorrectly, confusion has emerged again;

I already a while ago said that the Imperium is Human multicultural to a certain extent, then I got into a lengthier discussion concerning 'justifiably' and 'morality' concerning the regime of the Imperium separate to any question of being 'multicultural'.

Back to 40k.... actually in the Imperium there is an alternative to the God Emperor... the Machine God....

We've already dealt with this; the position and dogma of the Imperium is that they are the same being so this doesn't qualify at all.

On some worlds the Emperor is seen as multiple different deities

Doesn't change that you have to worship the Emperor.

Honestly are you arguing for religious freedom in the Imperium?

Because what about any human being who wants to worship a divinity other than the Emperor? Or doesn't want to worship any divinity at all? Or is unsure and would prefer to be explicitly agnostic? If the Imperium has religious freedom these would all three be permissible alternatives, are they permissible in the Imperium?

And yes by our definition the Imperium is evil, but by ancient standards for a multitude of reasons our current society is evil, philosophically even by todays standards we are evil.

So you are making an argument fully from subjectivity?

Simply stating *The Imperium can't be multicultural because it is evil*

When did I say that?

And the online community has long since felt the Imperium is incredibly "evil"

Really? Where? Why did you put "evil" in commas then?

but one of the slightly better ones

Worse than who?

every nation on the planet has done such actions

All nations do evil, yes, that doesn't make it good

If you had a race of trillions to protect, and the required action that was to sacrifice a few billion and reduce many more to slavery would you do it?

The Imperium is in no situation where it is faced with such a stark binary choice as you've contrived here

@Iocarno24:

Again, I'm not arguing the Imperium is a good place. I would certainly never justify the Imperium as 'moral'. But 'moral' and 'necessary' aren't necessarily the same thing; executing basically innocent civilians, man, woman and child, on the grounds of what might happen due to the exposure to the daemonic a crime against humanity. No excuses.

I'm honestly surprised anyone else online shares this view.

I've clearly been born into some bizarre and strange twilight realm since in my gaming community none of us ever argue the Imperium is a good guy or moral nation. We accept its a horrible tyranny.

Because it's the only option for the history of the species not ending with them.

Unverifiable

Most of them have a decent understanding of philosophy and ethics

The espoused philosophy of the Emperor barely scrapes by Undergraduate level, if that is the high-point of their argumentation then they are not very educated

Not even slightly.

Considering you are the only person to disagree with that notion it does, again, actually confirm itself.

40k is a setting where there essentially are no good guys

Aside from the Imperium apparently

Even the supposed 'nice guy' factions have some serious character flaws their respective fans tend to gloss over.

Aside from the Imperium apparently. No-one here seems to feel they're glossing over character flaws.

All my days Anemone..... what they hell is your beef with the Imperium?

It's a well known fact that it is on the brink of collapse, millions if not billions die daily, chaos is attempting to wipe out humanity and that aliens and mutations are doing the same. The funniest part is where you claim the imperium is not trying to protect mankind nor that there is a very real threat of mankind being wiped out.... well I think Nids, Orks, Necrons, DE and to a lessar extend chaos would like to have a word with you about that. That's ignoring the more minor xeno factions who would be more than happy to see mankind wiped out.

Most people understand the Imperiums many evils, but simply state they are a necessary evil seeing everything that has happened within the history of the Imperium. Lobotomising humans to make cyborgs? Reason being full mechanical robots almost wiped humanity out. Lack of religious freedom as you see it? Chaos using their cults to make Demon Worlds and slaughtering billions of individuals. Hunting or enslaving mutants? Mutations often are a precursor of an Chaos influence or a Genestealer cult infestation. Exterminus? It's often more cost effective for the Imperium as a whole to do such actions.

It's not a time or life any sane person on the forums would want, but most do recognise the horrors of the 41st century that the Imperium has to face and more liberal moral actions in the past in this universe has almost destroyed humanity multiple times.

So directly contrary to the prior stated bit? Not to mention clashes with Judaism or Christianity, the persecution of the Bacchanals, Druidism and then later, after the reformation to Christianity, the persecution of pagans.

Christianity was originally persecuted within the empire due to Judaism not pagan Romans. Even later on the amount of persecution faced by early Christianity was extremely over hyped by later Christian writers, often a few hundred years after the claimed events. Persecutions of Christians were sporadic and locally inspired, and almost never state-sanctioned. In the first two centuries Christianity was a relatively small sect which was not a significant concern of the Emperor. The Persecution in Lyon for example has a single source.... from a christian two hundred years after the claimed events. Trajan and Decidus has issues, but they did with all religions who failed to honour the emperor god. Even then Decidus act was less seriously religiously based and quite openly admitted as an act of swearing fealty to the empire, it's modern equivalent would be arresting someone in america who failed to swear allegience to the flag (which is technically illegal albeit no punishment).

Druidism & Judaism were oppressed due to their violent uprisings rather than their religion (non druid pagans in britain were left to continue their practices despite being almost identical) with judaism enjoying relative freedoms despite this. Bacchanalia was a roman festival anyway so claiming they are intolerant due to trying to reform it is no different to the church of england deciding to allow same sex marriage. Also the notable exception is the post Christianity Roman Empire which I already stated.

The espoused philosophy of the Emperor barely scrapes by Undergraduate level, if that is the high-point of their argumentation then they are not very educated

No. The Emperor is poor at philosophy for a reason common to most despots; there's only so much you have to respect someone's beliefs when you have about thirty million space marines at your disposal and they don't. He does slightly better at argument & counter argument in The Last Church when he (briefly) bothers to explain himself to someone who doesn't know who he is (and even that's not great because he eventually falls back on "I can see the future and it's necessary"), but that's the only occasion I can think of where he doesn't resort to "Because I'm right. Shut up." (Blam!)


Inquisitors, by comparison, do have a lot of political and philosphical factions precisely because they do have peers. When you have a conclave of individuals, all of whom have theoretically unlimited legal authority, an innate sense of constructive paranoia, and master-crafted automatic weapons, a lively and well-reasoned political debate is kind of essential if anyone expects to get out of the meeting room alive!

There is a fair amount of logical debate between factions when you look at the background of the Inquisitor game and Dark Heresy RPG.

The various faction sourcebooks explaining what the factions actual beliefs are, and their relationships with other factions, lead to some interesting discussions.

Polypsykana is a good example - Serpentis (can't remember his first name) writes a letter to other members of the faction where he lays out the fundamental contradiction in the Ordo Hereticus' functions:

a) They are the guardian of the Emperor's domains, and the destructive capability of untrammeled rogue psykers on Imperial worlds is immense. There have been enough worlds either overthrown by chaos cults led by unsanctioned wryd, or consumed by daemonic incursions or other psychic phenomena starting with same (from Lord Varlak, to Inquisitor Ascendant, to Eisenhorn:Malleus to Scourge The Heretic, to Phalanx), that this is not a debatable point.

b) They are the guardians of the Emperor's means of government - critically (in this case) the Astropathicus and Astronomican, both of which essentially require psykers as a consumable component, and without which the Imperium ceases to exist almost immediately as a functional galactic polity - with catastrophic consequences for non self-sufficient worlds, quite aside from any external threats.

c) They are the guardians of the Emperor's dream for mankind - its transition into a psychically aware species. But in order to meet the first two requirements - which are critical components in the species survival in the first place - the 'crop' of emergent psykers is largely exterminated or dragooned into service in a manner which will result in their destruction, continuously selecting against the emergence of the psyker gene as a dominant part of mankind's genome.


Equally the Recongregator sourcebook is an interesting read; the "tuppence ha'penny" codex version of their beliefs is "the Imperium sucks, let's burn it down and start again" but in reality it's more complex than that, with genuine thought given in how to provide progress (defined mostly but not exclusively as removing corrupt or inept individuals) without kicking over the whole rotting edifice, given that said individuals tend to hold unlimited personal authority, are hereditary posts or at least controlled by political factions and have most of the resources of their territory held in their personal name, rather than being associated with an office.

Because it's the only option for the history of the species not ending with them.

Unverifiable

Obviously. Because the only way to prove that would be to disband the Inquisition and let the consequences happen - which has some obvious downsides.

But there are enough cases (see the Siege Of Vraks Imperial Armour, Daemon codex, chaos marine codex, and more black library and FFG books than I can shake a pointy stick at) to prove that allowing a daemonic, rebel or xenos taint - the serious 'moral threat' stuff - to take hold costs the Imperium hugely in worlds and armies, to the extent that systems, sectors and even whole regions of imperial space essentially collapsing and being lost indefinitely is not a theoretical risk at all; it has, on numerous different scales, occured previously.

Not even slightly.

Considering you are the only person to disagree with that notion it does, again, actually confirm itself.

I'm not convinced that people on this thread are claiming the Imperium as the 'good guys', but even so, it's far from the whole online community. Taking a quick use of the search function:

 dietrich wrote:
Keep in mind, the Imperium is not 'good' either

 Clthomps wrote:
The Imperium is the "Third Reich in Space"

So yea i would say they are evil.

 combo wrote:
If the Imperium was anything other than human you would consider their traits "evil"
the fact that they are the humans seems to make people think they are good guys.

But you asked purely from a Moral stand point and I answered as such, however if you asked me from a real politik approach I would answer the Imperium really dont have any alternative in their situation.

The fact that you added "morally" to that question means that structural and military constraints should be ignored and only a moral view point considered. Therefore the Imperium are evil.

Magister187 wrote:
Most of the Galaxy exists in a shade of gray, the only real reason you might side with Imperium is that it is mankind, which you happen to be a member of (and the reason people assume they are the "good" guys.) But they are no more good then Eldar, Tau, Orks, etc. That's how I see it anyway.

 AlexHolker wrote:
Think of it like a fight between Doctor Doom and Galactus. Even though Doctor Doom is evil, you'd still want him to win because he's just "be the boss" evil, not "eat people" evil.

 Psienesis wrote:
the Imperium is evil as feth...

....Sorry. Got bored of copy-pasting at this point.
But no, I've never felt that people think of the Imperium as 'good', 'moral', 'ethical' or anything other than the single most important, and only vaguely redeeming, quality it has; 'still here after 10,000 years despite the best efforts of a slew of enemies who'd like to see humanity extinct'.

@Baldeagle91:

what they hell is your beef with the Imperium?

Besides the attempts of people in reality to justify its child murder, racism and repression? Nothing, those are my only beefs with it.

It's a well known fact that it is on the brink of collapse

No its an ad nausem repeated catch phrase with little to now realistic representation considering the regime is 8000 years old and has suffered no major territorial setbacks in that time, and continues to be the dominant hegemony by a clear margin despite 8000 years of Chaos, Orks, Tyranids and others trying to destroy it.

Besides none of this alters the fact that a statement that the Imperium does absolutely only what it must is unverifiable. That's simply a fact.

That's ignoring the more minor xeno factions who would be more than happy to see mankind wiped out.

Why not? Mankind, Orks, Tyranids and Chaos Daemons are the only major factions in the setting who wish to exterminate all other lifeforms in the galaxy. Even the Necrons, now, are willing to allow other races to live as vassals.

Mankind, Orks, Tyranids and Chaos Daemons are the only existential threats to all other life in the galaxy. They are the primary threats of the 40k galaxy.

Most people understand the Imperiums many evils, but simply state they are a necessary evil seeing everything that has happened within the history of the Imperium.

In which case they aren't evil because you're arguing they are justified;

Which is it, are you saying the Imperium is evil or are you saying that the Imperium is justified and hence not evil?

I assume the latter, since that's what most people here are saying, hence my surprise at your earlier post where you said the Imperium is 'evil'. At least now I understand your use of commas since it wasn't true, you clearly don't believe the Imperium to be 'evil' or evil.

Lobotomising humans to make cyborgs? Reason being full mechanical robots almost wiped humanity out.

So...your reasoning is; 'we cannot make AI, let us now turn to lobotomy,'

Lack of religious freedom as you see it?

Lack of religious freedom as fact.

I see you avoided answering my questions.

but most do recognise the horrors of the 41st century that the Imperium has to face and more liberal moral actions in the past in this universe has almost destroyed humanity multiple times.

Wasn't humanity destroyed because enormous Warp Storms broke out, their AI was corrupted by Chaos and turned on them and their was a spate of Psyker emergence they didn't know how to handle?

Only one of those is connected to liberalism.

Trajan and Decidus has issues, but they did with all religions who failed to honour the emperor god

The why doesn't matter, the persecution occurring is all that matters.

Druidism & Judaism were oppressed due to their violent uprisings rather than their religion

This is an incredibly over-simplistic reduction to cast a utopian view of Rome.

Look, honestly, I'm not going to continue the historical side of the discussion. You have such a utopian idealization of Rome (and the Imperium), considering simply the time period it existed in, that it isn't worth it to me. I apologize.

@Iocarno24:

He does slightly better at argument & counter argument in The Last Church

The Last Church is, legitimately, horrible. Its as if the Emperor and Priest never even attended an Undergraduates course in basic Theology let alone Philosophy of Religion.

Dark Heresy

Haven't read it so can't comment much here.

I'm not convinced that people on this thread are claiming the Imperium as the 'good guys', but even so, it's far from the whole online community. Taking a quick use of the search function:

I was referring to this thread.

Additionally doesn't the search function search the entire site? You know how many more you'd get if you looked for 'The Imperium is not evil,'

I don't want to trash what you've done, I take a tiny heart that a small minority of people even here don't argue that genocide, child slaughter and sexual slavery are good, but it doesn't change the point;

This is a tiny minority, the majority believe the Imperium is good and that all other factions within the setting are evil.

And, again, I was really only referring to this thread.

Still I take a tiny bit of heart from those comments. I just am pretty sure if I look into it you'll find at least five people arguing against each one of those comments.

That tiny bit of heart has been destroyed though; I did take a look at the threads you pulled those comments from and, in the majority, they were minority opinions whilst the majority expressed opinion was the Imperium was good and the most moral faction in the game.

To be fair though this really is becoming a more meta conversation and as I've said my energy I'm willing to spend on a discussion of as absurd a point as 'the Imperium is good' is out so I believe I'll call it there. The fluff simply doesn't grip me at all anymore, particularly following Death Masque and Traitor's Hate/Angel's Blade. One faction so overwhelmingly dominant and superior to all other factions just renders all fluff boring to me, as if it is written for Imperium fans and Imperium fans only. I'll stick to playing the game and try to distance myself from the fluff since I highly doubt the fluff will ever amount to anything beyond Imperium victories. Goodbye for now.

Hello I am back - miss me

I tink we have now moved into a different strand for this thread - "Is the Imperium of Man good or evil."

My thoughts on this rather than the multicultural element which I think is done and settled (?)

Is it good or evil - As an entity it is both, like most races in the 40k universe.

My reasoning: The Imperium of Man does very evil things in order to survive and protect humanity against numerous threats (the good bit).
Specifically it is willing to sacrfice the one or the few to save the many. (compartively "few" can mean entire planets if that might save entire sectors)

We know from numerous in universe examples that the warp is a dangerous force that seeks entry into the matieral realm and it often does through religious cults - allowing freedom of religion has been shown to provide the Powers of Choas easier entry into the universe. All elements of the Imperium are protected from this fate by an imposed religion and the srcutiny of various organisations including the Holy Inquisition.
We know that various races seek to exterminate, conquer or enslave the human race (and each other)
We also know that ALL races have some from of portection from the Warp and its powers:

Chaos: Either a force of nature like Orks and Tyranids or the most Evil part fo the setting.
Dark Eldar: Can;t really think of anything that makes them not evil - they enjoy what they are...........
Eldar: They are cosntantly aware that they can either sucumb to Chaos and/or be devoured alive by it - as well as their soul, They cling to the paths to keep them safe but they are also willing sacrfice entire wolrds to save a single member fo their own population,. I woudl say they are less evil than the Imperium as they do nto seek conflict but if they did regain their population size and power they are likely to act the same as the Necrons.
Necrons: Souless and mechanical - they are the nearest to Law versus Chaos. They ae alos prone to madness and have a powerful and extreme death cult that seeks the death of ALL life. many of the Dynasty's are happy to have non Necron subject races others follow the "Surrender AND Die" way. Overall about the same as the Imperium but the Destoryer Cult makes them IMO more evil - especially when combined with the Flayer Virus.
Orks: They live to fight and fight to live - if you are an Ork in their society then it is perfect, if you are not and have them misfortune to be captured and enslaved its pure, but short lived hell - in spite of this I would not class them as actually evil but more a force of nature. trycky though as they do "evil" things as part fo their very nature.
Tyranids: Again a force of nature that wants to eat everything - now its debatable if the Tyranid has any form of greater consious that would understadn the concept of evil and that devouring sentient races is evil?
Tau - the nearest we have to good guys in the whiole setting - although recently GW has been slowly moving them to a darker side - they have some dubious practices hinted at, they follow a caste system from birth that none seem to want - or are able to question? Waht happens if a Tau tries to - can they even do so? Farsight seems to suggest they can - so what happened to any others?

 Anemone wrote:

And I surely don't know why are you surprised. You fail to see the obvious.

Because I clearly expect better of people than I should?

Because you cannot understand the simple fact that not everything is friendship and magic. Sometimes it is just impossible to do things the peaceful way, doesn't matter how hard you try.

locarno24 wrote:
But, and here's the really crappy thing in the 41st millennium, it's usually the best option. Because the Imperium has lost cities, worlds, sectors, armies and chapters to darkness and corruption when it tried to do things the other way.

Without borrowing Anemone's axe & grindstone, I would contend that the Imperium's actions are not the result of the pursuit of the 'best' outcome, but rather the 'safest' outcome. If we want to characterize the Imperium's governing institutions in any way, I think extremely risk adverse is an easy one.

It's further worthy to note that the whole "worship only the emperor" clause, exists not because demons will start crawling out of your nose the moment you think "hey maybe he's just a guy". Technically; they could just police the Alien & Chaos cults, and be just as safe. However the Ecclesiarchy is incredibly powerful, and the other Imperial Institutions don’t want to risk a empire-shattering war (this is why the Apostasy was so important), so it gets the leeway to pursue absolute galactic conversion.

 Pendix wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
But, and here's the really crappy thing in the 41st millennium, it's usually the best option. Because the Imperium has lost cities, worlds, sectors, armies and chapters to darkness and corruption when it tried to do things the other way.

Without borrowing Anemone's axe & grindstone, I would contend that the Imperium's actions are not the result of the pursuit of the 'best' outcome, but rather the 'safest' outcome. If we want to characterize the Imperium's governing institutions in any way, I think extremely risk adverse is an easy one.

It's further worthy to note that the whole "worship only the emperor" clause, exists not because demons will start crawling out of your nose the moment you think "hey maybe he's just a guy". Technically; they could just police the Alien & Chaos cults, and be just as safe. However the Ecclesiarchy is incredibly powerful, and the other Imperial Institutions don’t want to risk a empire-shattering war (this is why the Apostasy was so important), so it gets the leeway to pursue absolute galactic conversion.

Well you could arguably police the alien cults, chaos cults by their very nature mean any chaos worship can result in demons spawning everywhere. I even have some older fluff where pskers who simply don't realise their power result in an entire worlds loss to demon and the creation of a new demon world.

However yes, the turn from Imperial truth into the Imperial Cults was not necessary nor a good thing. "However" many people would argue it's impossible to remove all religious belief from humans without a desire to believe in some higher power, you can argue it's partially human nature. I saw some studies that showed many people are genetically inclined via brain structure to be religious and believe in spiritual events (and ghost, spirits etc). By comparison some people are inclined to be atheists, depending on brain structure you can use electrical and magnetic conditions to affect the first type to believing a feeling spirits are closer, while the second type remain mostly unaffected (thus why ghost sightings crop up near power lines). Also religious people generally live longer and healthier lives (despite all the wars they start) and have more children, thus encouraging it to continue in future genetrations.

Been a while since I checked on this thread that I started. I see that it has spiralled towards the question of weither of not the Imperium is good or bad. I think we need to step back and look at some important elements before thinking about it.

- The Imperium is fractured.

-Up to this point, I think we all agreed that the Imperium was pretty much multicultural, and not only that, but a decentralized macro-society made up of many micro-societies, all of this over the span of 10k years (which mean it had several iterations).

-As such, I think it's impossible to label it as good or bad, simply because it's not a monolithic entity. Some parts of the Imperium might be more ''humanists'' than others, and some parts might be more ''bad''. For example, if I recall correcty, I think we would all agree that the worlds that are part of the Ultramar system are more advanced and humane than, said, the worlds near the Eye of Terror.

-If we are referring to the central core of the Imperium (Terra and its administrarium), one might be convinced to label it as bad or just amoral, considering how it can easily order an exterminatus or the purge of a whole world simply like one would order a coffee. But then again, one must remember that even Terra and its administration are a multi-faceted institution, with individuals and groups playing their cards to further their own agenda (some selfish, other not).

-As such, I think it might be near impossible to label it good or bad, considering how fractured and divided it is, even thought it tries to be or at least tries to appear to be united.