Hi all, i'm recently coming back into 40k after leaving it at 5th ed and have noticed one big thing for my space marines.
Grav Weaponry!
I am pretty much a Salamanders player and so have always loved the AP1 goodness of the melta gun but I notice that grav guns are potentially better as they're 18" S* AP2 Salvo 3/5 compared to the melta which is 12" S8 AP1......
The Grav Cannon I feel is too expensive at 35 points so I will take multi-melta for the heavy slot but for the assault slot I feel 3/5 shots would be better than 1?
No contest. Devastators should take Grav cannons. Tac squads Melta guns, bikes Grav. Never plasma. Flamers only on assault squads. That's pretty much the order for any SM list, especially the BattleCo. Skyhammer is the only time is take MMeltas, and even then Id do 4 Grav Cannons 4 MM.
Note that grav guns are salvo 2/3, it’s the cannons that are 3/5
I’ll admit to being turned off by the points of the cannons initially. But they’ve won me over for use in tac squads. They are the only heavy weapon that can be fired effectively on the move. That’s a big deal. And while they might be expensive, they excel and putting wounds on things that are both expensive themselves, and otherwise hard for use to deal with.
I still run a full melta tac squad (MM/M, c-melta) but a full grav squad is also seeing the table quite a bit these days.
Grav has basically replaced plasma in my lists. WYSWYG/model restrictions will still see some pop up, but for the most part grav does the job better then plasma.
To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.
It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.
There is a lot of Grav hype up in here!!! HYYYYPEEE!!
Grav is great, don't get me wrong. But there is a point to bring melta - Super Heavy Vehicles/Walkers. The best way to kill them is Melta, D-weapons, and a crap ton of attacks in melee (while avoiding I1 stomps).
Due to the lack of vehicle use in 40katm (including SHV), Grav is a great option. However, there is a resurgance of SHW to stomp out stars: Khorne Brass Scorpions, Imperial Knights, etc. (Local Gaming Group, even Nova had more than usual)
Grav is a lot more practical for Take-All-Comers list as their use is a lot more common, but including a few meltas can come in clutch.
I'd be inclined to do the opposite: meltaguns and grav-cannons. Multimeltas will have to snap-fire on any unit that's moving, unless they're relentless (so, Land Speeders...) Grav-cannons, OTOH, are the one heavy weapon you can usefully fire on the move.
Crimson Devil wrote: To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.
It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.
Riptide and Dreadnkight were the original sin, though. Grav is necessary to harm these units, and even then, can still fail due to saves and sometimes layered saves.
Everyone is forgetting one niche for plasma: demons.
Crimson Devil wrote: To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.
It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.
Riptide and Dreadnkight were the original sin, though. Grav is necessary to harm these units, and even then, can still fail due to saves and sometimes layered saves.
Everyone is forgetting one niche for plasma: demons.
Plasma has a few other niches.
On non relentless units on the move, it’s better in a number of range bands, and depending on the T/Sv. of a target, there are some places it does better there as well. Also very light vehicles. It’s also a little bit more consistent. While grav’s to-wound roll is variable, plasma wounds everything from a grot up to some mid/large monsters on a 2+. Only at T6 and above does it start to lag, and depending on the armor save, grav might not be doing any better there.
Are these reasons to take it? Not really. Grav is better in more situations, against more targets. But plasma is not useless, just overshadowed. And the things grav is not good vs, we can probably just drown in bolter fire anyway.
Martel732 wrote: Assuming your list bothers with bolters. I minimize those wretched things at all costs.
True, but how low can you go? The damn things are everywhere!
Particularly the most popular place for grav: bikes. If up against green tide/demons/whatever, just use the TL’d bolters you get for free with the ride.
Or any place grav cannons get spammed. Hurricanes in the cents, or if packing them in a tac squad to fill the CAD tax, basic bolter boys.
Bolters don't work too well vs greater demons, though. Those guys have it made all around; immune to small arms, immune to grav. You can't punch them to death unless you are TWC.
Crimson Devil wrote: To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.
It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.
Riptide and Dreadnkight were the original sin, though. Grav is necessary to harm these units, and even then, can still fail due to saves and sometimes layered saves.
Everyone is forgetting one niche for plasma: demons.
Plasma has a few other niches.
On non relentless units on the move, it’s better in a number of range bands, and depending on the T/Sv. of a target, there are some places it does better there as well. Also very light vehicles. It’s also a little bit more consistent. While grav’s to-wound roll is variable, plasma wounds everything from a grot up to some mid/large monsters on a 2+. Only at T6 and above does it start to lag, and depending on the armor save, grav might not be doing any better there.
Are these reasons to take it? Not really. Grav is better in more situations, against more targets. But plasma is not useless, just overshadowed. And the things grav is not good vs, we can probably just drown in bolter fire anyway.
There exists something need special ammo Sternguard to deal with. Which are not only Greater Daemons, but also 15 Nurgle Spawns. Which is the ban of space marines.
Grav is good vs most things, but there are some exceptions, like the aforementioned Daemons, as well as Grotesques, which brings a smile to my face whenever grav is shot at them.
I sometimes find sternguard disappointing against MEQs, but they fill a nice hole vs tough, low save units or similiar and monstrous creatures who don't have a good save. The poison 2+ fills a nice hole.
Grav cannons are great in general. Melta still fills a gap when you run into a knight or similiar!
Take grav on whatever you can that can be put on relentless platforms, anything that grav is not effective against gets murdered by bolters. It is quite frankly the most powerful mechanic right now with the ability to drop it in via skyhammers and scout it up on bike armies.
Jimsolo wrote: I think Salamanders Melta trumps grav. If there's an option between the two, I'd take the Melta.
That's ONLY if you take Vulkan though, and he isn't exactly the hardest character to kill (which means an easier than usual Slay the Warlord). Plus if you MC a Combi-Grav, you'll most likely land all three shots instead of just two.
Martel732 wrote: Assuming your list bothers with bolters. I minimize those wretched things at all costs.
Welp, if bolters are so bad, I'll have to make do with these lasguns....
I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
Martel732 wrote: Assuming your list bothers with bolters. I minimize those wretched things at all costs.
Welp, if bolters are so bad, I'll have to make do with these lasguns....
I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Lasguns can be made very effective with misfortune. Bolters can't.
Blood Angels are the worst evaaah. Riptides / whatever else is remotely good is the bane of game balance, and as such Grav is not OP. It is a necessity. Bolter Marines are just extra wounds, and everything else is better than a Marine with a bolter, in every way, ever. Ummm.... and only ever take one Power Fist per 5 Death Company, regardless of the relevance of mentioning that.
In this way, you can avoid summoning He-That-Repeats-The-Same-Four-Points in every post, regardless of how unrelated the thread may be. Every time. Every thread.
To the OP, in general any relentless platform will do wonderfully with a Grav-based weapon. Multi-meltas are seldom great as one-shot weapons just don't kill vehicles as reliably as they used to. Big clusters of Melta-guns can do well, but are still unreliable vs the toughest of targets. They can kill a big bad vehicle in one go... but don't count on it.
I love the idea of Salamanders, but even after taking Vulkan they've never been able to do as well as Ultramarines, in my experience.
JNAProductions wrote: 4 Meltas in Melta Range have about a 45% chance of blowing up a Land Raider.
By marine counts thats 70+40=110points. Two grav-cannons with a cherubim will pump (24+70+5=99pts) 10 shots, hit 9 times and average 2.7 immobilized results meaning they too have a solid chance of wrecking the landraider all while providing anti-horde (50% of killing 5+ saves, and stripping a good couple of wounds even against 6+ saves) and elite (ignoring armor saves AND getting volume shots) while boasting twice the ran
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
Meltas are better against Super Heavy Vehicles where the whole "subsequent Immobilized result = another hull point lost" drek doesn't work, but otherwise Gravs are the better bet in nearly every situation.
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
I'm sure it'd be the target of much pre-emptive fire
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
Or we could appropriately cost the LRBT as they are...
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
I'm sure it'd be the target of much pre-emptive fire
...Imagine PASK on that thing
Yup, no doubt on that. I have to say that this gak joke I just made might be the Guards best solution to the MCs and GMC, and bring the most iconic tanks in 40k back. AND it will let GW gain profit from IG Faction.
Crimson Devil wrote: To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.
It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.
Grav are bad game design mainly because a model is penalised for something has paid more.
There are weapons (like some Eldar one) that target Initiative, and used to be weapons targeting Discipline (the Callidus shooting attack before the current edition - or it was before 5th?). But in both cases, a model is, or would have been, more vulnerable to such weapons the smaller the targeted score is. In other terms, there still would be a linear relationship between the greater point cost of the model cost and its survivability.
Yes, generally Initiative is not related to defense (but against some Psychic Powers and other weird effects already was), but at the very least a model would not be penalised for something has paid more. Armor and invulnerable saves sometimes can nothing against massed plasma, and a model is saved just avoiding contact with his mobility. That thing costs points too.
Grav affecting armor is dumb, because armor is expected to be the primary defense stat. I select models on my army list and say "ok these guys have a 2+, they are the toughest, get them and buy their models because I want a resilient unit" - NOPE
Grav is, by far, the lowest of the low in GW rule design. Not even the D shenanigans of the Eldar (but that and fast attacks as troops with 1 heavy weapon each is another very close abomination) or the Riptide rules puked (I refuse to say "written") by Jeremy "I cannot do math" Vetock are that bad. That stuff is overpowered, Grav is overpowered and counterintuitive. Is DUMB, which is worse than evil. You can redeem evil, you cannot redeem dumb.
And before "b-but we need it for monsters like the riptide". No you use plasma and melta like the "less fortunate". Have Ork and IG grav? Otherwise next time something even dumber than the riptide will come out as an unkillable crap. Grav are the finest example of escalation and will see worse in the future.
In my understanding grav is something given to SM chapters to compensate for the use of D weapons from the other races. Grav is kinda bad rule wise but it seems almost necessary in the current environment to make marines to keep up with more competitive armies, like Eldar or Tau. On the other hand armies like GK are heavily penalized from Grav since it makes short work of everything they bring on the table.
Capamaru wrote: In my understanding grav is something given to SM chapters to compensate for the use of D weapons from the other races. Grav is kinda bad rule wise but it seems almost necessary in the current environment to make marines to keep up with more competitive armies, like Eldar or Tau. On the other hand armies like GK are heavily penalized from Grav since it makes short work of everything they bring on the table.
Or perhaps the problem is stuff like D weapons, scatterbikes and riptides, and GW should tune down that stuff instead of giving a broken weapon to an already good army and ignoring CSM, IG, Orks...
Why are the SM always the parameter to adjust and balance stuff? why if allows SM to remain competitive is ok?
Capamaru wrote: In my understanding grav is something given to SM chapters to compensate for the use of D weapons from the other races. Grav is kinda bad rule wise but it seems almost necessary in the current environment to make marines to keep up with more competitive armies, like Eldar or Tau. On the other hand armies like GK are heavily penalized from Grav since it makes short work of everything they bring on the table.
Or perhaps the problem is stuff like D weapons, scatterbikes and riptides, and GW should tune down that stuff instead of giving a broken weapon to an already good army and ignoring CSM, IG, Orks...
Why are the SM always the parameter to adjust and balance stuff? why if allows SM to remain competitive is ok?
Crimson Devil wrote: To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.
It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.
Grav are bad game design mainly because a model is penalised for something has paid more.
There are weapons (like some Eldar one) that target Initiative, and used to be weapons targeting Discipline (the Callidus shooting attack before the current edition - or it was before 5th?). But in both cases, a model is, or would have been, more vulnerable to such weapons the smaller the targeted score is. In other terms, there still would be a linear relationship between the greater point cost of the model cost and its survivability.
Yes, generally Initiative is not related to defense (but against some Psychic Powers and other weird effects already was), but at the very least a model would not be penalised for something has paid more. Armor and invulnerable saves sometimes can nothing against massed plasma, and a model is saved just avoiding contact with his mobility. That thing costs points too.
Grav affecting armor is dumb, because armor is expected to be the primary defense stat. I select models on my army list and say "ok these guys have a 2+, they are the toughest, get them and buy their models because I want a resilient unit" - NOPE
Grav is, by far, the lowest of the low in GW rule design. Not even the D shenanigans of the Eldar (but that and fast attacks as troops with 1 heavy weapon each is another very close abomination) or the Riptide rules puked (I refuse to say "written") by Jeremy "I cannot do math" Vetock are that bad. That stuff is overpowered, Grav is overpowered and counterintuitive. Is DUMB, which is worse than evil. You can redeem evil, you cannot redeem dumb.
And before "b-but we need it for monsters like the riptide". No you use plasma and melta like the "less fortunate". Have Ork and IG grav? Otherwise next time something even dumber than the riptide will come out as an unkillable crap. Grav are the finest example of escalation and will see worse in the future.
Add to the list of design flaws that grav has the fact that it is exactly as likely to damage an Imperial Guard Sentinel or a Rhino as a Land Raider or a Warlord Titan... I mean really?
The adeptus mechanicus can't stick a couple of plastic sprockets in the leg joints to keep the plates on, they invented ceremite armour to invalidate Melta, they can't come up with something to make thier main hardened battle APC more resistant than an orc Trukk?
Blood Angels are the worst evaaah. Riptides / whatever else is remotely good is the bane of game balance, and as such Grav is not OP. It is a necessity. Bolter Marines are just extra wounds, and everything else is better than a Marine with a bolter, in every way, ever. Ummm.... and only ever take one Power Fist per 5 Death Company, regardless of the relevance of mentioning that.
In this way, you can avoid summoning He-That-Repeats-The-Same-Four-Points in every post, regardless of how unrelated the thread may be. Every time. Every thread.
...
I'm serious. Every. Single. Thread.
I lol'd.
On topic, I mostly equip my (Imperial Fists tactics) Tactical squads with Grav Cannon, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, and Melta-guns, as those are the best weapons for firing on the move. I stay away from Grav Cannon on Devastators unless they're deploying in a Drop Pod or Rhino as otherwise the short range hampers them.
I do take the occasional Flamer or Grav Gun in my Tactical squads as sometimes you want to roast xenos infantry or have a unit that's not going to do much moving.
Add to the list of design flaws that grav has the fact that it is exactly as likely to damage an Imperial Guard Sentinel or a Rhino as a Land Raider or a Warlord Titan... I mean really?
The adeptus mechanicus can't stick a couple of plastic sprockets in the leg joints to keep the plates on, they invented ceremite armour to invalidate Melta, they can't come up with something to make thier main hardened battle APC more resistant than an orc Trukk?
AHAHAHA oh my gods true. who designed those things Crud-dace?
It looks something written by a guy that designed a weapon Heavy 20 often less useful than many Heavy 4. A knee-jerk reaction to the Riptide of Jeremy "cannot into math" Vetock. Kindergarden level.
Vetock: "My super robot has super shields.. a-and 2+ armor" Cruddace: "I laser it ZZZZZAAAAPPP" Vetock: "no because my super robot has a super pilot that is edgy and does drugs and has 5+ FnP" Cruddace: "cheater" Vetock: "no you cheater" Cruddace: "copycat" Vetock: "you are just jealous of my super-robot"
So little Cruddy went to design Grav weapons. Vetty will learn his place. After all,Space Marines are the bestest ever they cannot be beaten.
And I used to criticise Ward.
*Looks at camera with serious, imploring expression* Matt come back. All is forgiven. You wrote stuff that broke entire games in half, but at least you had an internal consistence. A game with your codices only (codices only written by the Talented Mr. Ward, I mean) would have been diverse and somewhat functional. Those hack frauds don't even manage to do that.
Mind it this is after they nerfed power weapons in CC in a way that unless you are a fragile eldar, you cannot have high str VP2 and strike at initiative. But now look at gravs, look at Deathwing and tell with a straight face, without crying or laughing, that they belong to the same game. Later they crapped on this concept in melee as well but whatever. They totally lack of vision. Is sad and disconcerting.
Ah yes, because it was Grav that made Deathwing and Terminators bad for several editions, and not the fact they're not too durable for the cost and have absolutely no firepower for the cost, which is their worst offense.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, because it was Grav that made Deathwing and Terminators bad for several editions, and not the fact they're not too durable for the cost and have absolutely no firepower for the cost, which is their worst offense.
Come on now, you know that it's not what I meant. And anyway, did it make it better, or deteriorated an already bad situation of power escalation? Because that is what killed termie across editions, one piece at time.
Just, now more and more models are affected by the "Terminator Sickness".
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, because it was Grav that made Deathwing and Terminators bad for several editions, and not the fact they're not too durable for the cost and have absolutely no firepower for the cost, which is their worst offense.
Come on now, you know that it's not what I meant. And anyway, did it make it better, or deteriorated an already bad situation of power escalation? Because that is what killed termie across editions, one piece at time.
Just, now more and more models are affected by the "Terminator Sickness".
It IS what you mean in the end though.
Terminators have been gak for years and we still have people in denial about this, and then proclaim Grav to be an offender? No. You can name ONE edition where they were even mildly useful (4th) and I still say they weren't anything to fear.
Grav is just another thing that we ignore Terminators with. Going on to say Grav is broken (it isn't but it needs to be fixed) and using Terminators as an example of a unit that suffers is pure bollocks.
If you take away Grav-amps, then maybe lower the shots of the Grav cannon to 3/4 (maybe with a 5-10 pt decrease) and it becomes much more "even" with Melta. Melta can still wound, but is way better against AV, and Grav would be able to hurt AV but is way better against T/armour saves.
Both are still better that Plasma sadly.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, because it was Grav that made Deathwing and Terminators bad for several editions, and not the fact they're not too durable for the cost and have absolutely no firepower for the cost, which is their worst offense.
Come on now, you know that it's not what I meant. And anyway, did it make it better, or deteriorated an already bad situation of power escalation? Because that is what killed termie across editions, one piece at time.
Just, now more and more models are affected by the "Terminator Sickness".
It IS what you mean in the end though.
Terminators have been gak for years and we still have people in denial about this, and then proclaim Grav to be an offender? No. You can name ONE edition where they were even mildly useful (4th) and I still say they weren't anything to fear.
Grav is just another thing that we ignore Terminators with. Going on to say Grav is broken (it isn't but it needs to be fixed) and using Terminators as an example of a unit that suffers is pure bollocks.
We termicided with caos quite effectively in 3rd, some still do (dunno, I left my chaos army in another country, it's been years).
And I am sorry, I explained why I think grav is stupid; I explained when I said that a model is damaged more if more points are spent on a resource (a resource that is supposed to be one of defensive ones!). This is counter-intuitive to the point system and it should not be allowed. And please let's not go on the route "b-but point system is so 1990". Is not if the designers care.
THEN I said: look at terminators, or look at other stuff if you please, is an example, and tell me if they can play together. The answer, as you say, is not. The point is that people say wee ned-ed grav for big monsters; I think that things should be tuned down or more and more units, like termies, will "go sick" and disappear.
If you want to put more words in my mouth, go ahead.
Grav is great, by far the best heavy weapon the Space Marines have. BUT, Melta is incredibly useful to have for Superheavy Vehicles, and occasionally for IDing things. In my competitive builds I bring a healthy mix. The most important thing to remember with Melta is that they need to be fired on the move. This means you are better taking Meltaguns instead of Multimeltas for any foot troops, or bringing your Multimeltas on mobile platforms like Land Speeders or Dreadnoughts. The Land Speeder Squadron outfitted with six Multimeltas is only OK for most Chapters, since Vehicles don't get to take advantage of Chapter Tactics. But for Salamanders with Vulkan Hes'tan? Total Win IMO for hunting those Imperial Knights.
My ten man Tactical Squad optimized for a Drop Pod is Grav-Cannon, Meltagun, Combi-Melta. If taking a Rhino, then I'll go all Grav. If building for the full Battle Company, some 5-man squads with Meltagun/Combi-melta are an ideal buy in the free Drop Pods, as well as a Command Squad with 5 Meltaguns. If mounted in Rhinos take the 5-man Tacs with Grav Cannons.
There are occasions when I miss my Plasmas or Flamers, but they're pretty rare, and Assault Squads pick up the slack on the Flamers. I will probably re-equip one Squad with Plasma/Combi-Plasma at some point, just to have it around.
Well, given that Grav isn't even an option for CSM, nevermind the fact that CSM is supposed to be the one still hanging on to "ancient" tech weapons. Its a mote issue when it comes to CSM, so obviously melta.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, given that Grav isn't even an option for CSM, nevermind the fact that CSM is supposed to be the one still hanging on to "ancient" tech weapons. Its a mote issue when it comes to CSM, so obviously melta.
As an IG player, I'm rather uninformed when it comes to Grav tech fluff. Was it recently invented or rediscovered (recently being very late m41, like the last 100 years), or is it something that's been more or less anti-retconned ("What? Grav weaponry has always been around, why are you acting like it's new?") by GW? That may have a rather potent impact on who gets access to grav if/when codices like IG, SoB, less popular SM chapters and CSM finally get their codices updated.
BA just got grav cannons and they are actually pretty hard to abuse, or even use really, with no access to skyhammer. You don't see DA with grav cannons often, either.
Capamaru wrote: In my understanding grav is something given to SM chapters to compensate for the use of D weapons from the other races. Grav is kinda bad rule wise but it seems almost necessary in the current environment to make marines to keep up with more competitive armies, like Eldar or Tau. On the other hand armies like GK are heavily penalized from Grav since it makes short work of everything they bring on the table.
They invented Grav before they allowed StrD weapons in normal 40k
I know it may be succumbing to the power creep a lot, but I feel it'd be nice for, say, Guard to have Str D Deathstrike missiles, and access to grav like the boys in (mostly) blue. Or bikes...
Grav isn't universally effective the way Str D (which Eldar, Tau, and others) is effective. Grav may have a lot of shots and kill 2+ and 3+ well, but going after 4+ and 5+ is a lot harder. The shot count mitigates that a little, but it isn't perfect. When Str D entered the regular game, any argument against Grav went down the drain. Same with super-powered MCs and GCs. Get rid of Riptides, WK, and the like and I will gladly give up Grav.
As for Grav v. Melta, I run both. 5x Combi-Melta for one Sternguard squad, 5x Combi-Grav for the other. I also pack a Melta Bomb on some Scouts and on my Librarian.
As to plasma, if you have swapped your bolter out for grav, you have lost killing power against light infantry. Plasma is however still effective against that target type. It's not all about maximizing effectiveness against x type of target, because generally that minimizes effectiveness against other types of targets. Because you cannot always determine what target you get to shoot at.
This does not apply to units that have bolters on top of grav, naturally.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Grav isn't universally effective the way Str D (which Eldar, Tau, and others) is effective.
Lul, Wut?! Tau? IS you serious?! with the literally 1 platform that requires another mechanic in marker-lights (the most fragile platform) to make them strength D per missile fired? and was introduced in the kayon/last codex not having had it since 6th ed or prior? or vortex missiles or mind powers, or titans, or all that other BS.
For all the talk of marker light fragility, they seem awful hard to get off the table in practice. Especially when I'm losing 1/3 of my list a turn. Anything that gets close to the marker lights gets obliterated instantly.
well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.
Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D
casvalremdeikun wrote: Grav isn't universally effective the way Str D (which Eldar, Tau, and others) is effective.
Lul, Wut?! Tau? IS you serious?! with the literally 1 platform that requires another mechanic in marker-lights (the most fragile platform) to make them strength D per missile fired? and was introduced in the kayon/last codex not having had it since 6th ed or prior? or vortex missiles or mind powers, or titans, or all that other BS.
Go ahead and count the number of Str D items in the Space Marine codex and get back to me. Don't worry, it won't take long.
Also, between cheap PF teams, Drone formations, and practically every model in the Tau codex having MLs, if you are running completely out of ML before you can fire all of your Destroyer Missiles off, you are doing aomething terribly wrong.
They might not be as agreguous as Eldar, but Tau still have Str D to reliably throw around, and they still have Riptides to make up the difference.
Blood Angels are the worst evaaah. Riptides / whatever else is remotely good is the bane of game balance, and as such Grav is not OP. It is a necessity. Bolter Marines are just extra wounds, and everything else is better than a Marine with a bolter, in every way, ever. Ummm.... and only ever take one Power Fist per 5 Death Company, regardless of the relevance of mentioning that.
In this way, you can avoid summoning He-That-Repeats-The-Same-Four-Points in every post, regardless of how unrelated the thread may be. Every time. Every thread.
pumaman1 wrote: well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.
Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D
I own no IoM stuff other than BA stuff. Maybe that answers your question right there.
General game play in the best of cases: I get first turn, everything in drop pods dies to interceptor. My stuff moves up and shoots ineffectually because BA. Tau turn: the front 1/3 of my army dies. My turn, move up, shoot ineffectually, try a few assaults, most fail because overwatch, the ones that succeed wipe their target so they can get shot again on the Tau turn. Tau turn: 1/3 more of my list dies; they have moved out of assault range of my remaining forces. Next turn: I shoot ineffectually and fail to get any assaults. Tau turn: I'm tabled.
pumaman1 wrote: well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.
Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D
I own no IoM stuff other than BA stuff. Maybe that answers your question right there.
General game play in the best of cases: I get first turn, everything in drop pods dies to interceptor. My stuff moves up and shoots ineffectually because BA. Tau turn: the front 1/3 of my army dies. My turn, move up, shoot ineffectually, try a few assaults, most fail because overwatch, the ones that succeed wipe their target so they can get shot again on the Tau turn. Tau turn: 1/3 more of my list dies; they have moved out of assault range of my remaining forces. Next turn: I shoot ineffectually and fail to get any assaults. Tau turn: I'm tabled.
Perhaps an actual battle report? not a hyperbolic battle report. IF everything drop pods died to interceptor, there shouldn't be terribly many quality shots left to shoot in their own turn to wipe out 1/3 your army. I am more than willing to follow to a battle report thread as well. to try and salvage the thread topic as much as possible.
There are so many ways to avoid good interception. The tau (short of the drone formation) also has to intercept with the lack of markerlight support. Meaning you'll get most of your cover saves, shooting at BS3, and the intercepted gets to place the model anyway they want to avoid the lose of their special/heavy weapons. And that's just on the top of my head on the first topic of concern.
Don't forget as pumaman1 mentioned, if you are getting intercepted dead. The tau's turn of shooting becomes extremely limited.
There are always ways to mitigate damage done to you. Even LoS works pretty well when you're a marine with a 3+ sv. SMS will be able to hit you, yes, but it still needs to hit on 4s with rerolls, 3s to wound, and you get a 3+ sv. Also you can't be intercepted out of LOS (period, RAW). There are tournaments that FAQ the BRB ruling.
Or drop pod in and not disembark, so that they intercept the drop pod. Even if it explodes, a lot nice taking s4 ap- hits than s8 ap2 hits. Its open topped, so if it survives (which 50/50 it will versus s8) its open topped so you only lose marginal distance.
Melta being relegated to 12" is probably a bigger factor than i think has been addressed yet. if it was extended to 16" this discussion would be much closer.
All drones I see are now the formation. It's better than any of my 30 formations :\ The assault from deepstrike at least has some hope against Eldar vs scatbikes and warp spiders Against Tau, it's useless because interceptor.
Fair enough, not having anything like drop pods, i missed that point.
I know there is another thread arguing about drop pod doors, but theoretically model with doors up and block LOS that way.
pumaman1 wrote: Fair enough, not having anything like drop pods, i missed that point.
I know there is another thread arguing about drop pod doors, but theoretically model with doors up and block LOS that way.
Yea, but that blocks my LOS as well. And then I have to walk around the bloody thing to get to the Tau, so they end up shooting that unit anyway. Every single movement rule in the game favors shooting lists. It's natural that Tau get a disproportionate advantage from this. I'm aware that Tau can't stop psychically fueled deathstars, but Orks, DE and BA are fresh out of those. At least CSM gets access to the almighty invis.
The bottom line here is that melta is t-totally useless vs Eldar and Tau. That's a huge reason grav is so popular.
Martel732 wrote: All drones I see are now the formation. It's better than any of my 30 formations :\
Archangels orbital intervention force
You can use: 3 units of the assault or regular terminators
Bonus: all units must be put in reserve and roll together. No reroll.
When the deep strike, regular terminator can fire twice and assault terminator can charge (but count has a disoriented charge)
you shoot in the movement phase the first time, intercept is at the end of the movement phase, you can kill all my intercepting marker lights before then even do anything that turn.. and then anyone who's 5+ did anything or had a 1 to wound gets to charge the ever deadly dudes, and make them take a -ld check and sweep them.. used in conjunction with
Lucifer Armoured Task Force: one Techmarine, 3-5 Predator units (Regular and/or Baals) and 1-3 Land Raiders (Regular, Crusader or Redeemer). Everything gets Scout and all tanks become Fast, including the Land Raiders. Scouting Fast Land Raiders is a phenomenal delivery system for Hammernators. A Baal Pred or a Land Raider Redeemer already halfway up the field turn 1 does nasty, nasty things to infantry... The scout in the deployment doesn't count as a scout move, so you can move 12" in deployment, move 6" disembark 6" (ie enemy's deployment zone) and charge. even if they deploy at the back, i now have too many targets to pick from that are too good at killing all my non-riptides, which leads to a you winning via points, or focusing down the riptides
Without an actual report, I'm assuming your Tau "friend" runs an extremely optimized Tau list. Even so, there are still ways to work around Tau interception. The tau player should never be able to maximize their firepower every singe turn. If that was the case - it would be user error rather than codex creep.
It's hard to get a grasp on what actually - realistically - goes on in a game between you and your Tau opponents without an actual report.
There are ways an optimized BA list can win against an optimized Tau list. I've seen it. It may require some luck and a lot of skill, but optimized versus optimized it is possible.
But I can not disagree with you more when your games are going as you described without a lack of strategy on your part. Maybe you are describing the game with some hyperbole or maybe you are literally throws units directly as them without a care in the world. I honestly think you need to readjust your list if you are struggling this much against a semi-competitive codex (semi referring to how often you see them in top8 in larger tournaments).
Against most Tau weapons, cover does no good because it doesn't penetrate power armor. They just roll up 100 wounds and force saves to failure. For the weapons that DO penetrate armor those conveniently get the marker light buffs. That makes cover 100% useless vs Tau and so movement becomes a trivial exercise.
Martel732 wrote: All drones I see are now the formation. It's better than any of my 30 formations :\
Archangels orbital intervention force
You can use: 3 units of the assault or regular terminators
Bonus: all units must be put in reserve and roll together. No reroll.
When the deep strike, regular terminator can fire twice and assault terminator can charge (but count has a disoriented charge)
you shoot in the movement phase the first time, intercept is at the end of the movement phase, you can kill all my intercepting marker lights before then even do anything that turn.. and then anyone who's 5+ did anything or had a 1 to wound gets to charge the ever deadly dudes, and make them take a -ld check and sweep them.. used in conjunction with
Lucifer Armoured Task Force: one Techmarine, 3-5 Predator units (Regular and/or Baals) and 1-3 Land Raiders (Regular, Crusader or Redeemer). Everything gets Scout and all tanks become Fast, including the Land Raiders. Scouting Fast Land Raiders is a phenomenal delivery system for Hammernators. A Baal Pred or a Land Raider Redeemer already halfway up the field turn 1 does nasty, nasty things to infantry... The scout in the deployment doesn't count as a scout move, so you can move 12" in deployment, move 6" disembark 6" (ie enemy's deployment zone) and charge. even if they deploy at the back, i now have too many targets to pick from that are too good at killing all my non-riptides, which leads to a you winning via points, or focusing down the riptides
There's nothing to indicate that the orbital intervention force fires during the movement phase. All indications is that interceptor goes first. As it should.
IMO Grav is more useful than D. Most D weapons are only good against single models, and are only available on a few platforms. Grav is good against both single models and squads, and is available on the core SM unit. Grav is better against MEQs.
D is only really outshines Grav against Superheavy Vehicles, and MCs without an armor save. Said MCs are rare, and Melta covers Superheavy Vehicles well enough.
Insectum7 wrote: IMO Grav is more useful than D. Most D weapons are only good against single models, and are only available on a few platforms. Grav is good against both single models and squads, and is available on the core SM unit. Grav is better against MEQs.
D is only really outshines Grav against Superheavy Vehicles, and MCs without an armor save. Said MCs are rare, and Melta covers Superheavy Vehicles well enough.
Generally speaking, it is true. However, things like 3 StrD blast barrage, with ignore cover psychic buff is something much more terrifiying to anything I think.
*30k Player Jumps In*
"Volkite"
*Dashes Away at 200mph to avoid the hate*
But Seriously (In a 10 man Devastator Equilivent terms) 40 S6 AP5 shots at 45" range that Causes more S6 AP5 hits is nothing to sniff at
*The Math* (Assume all 10 man Squads are in Ruins and are in range and havent moved)
VOLKITE
40 shots at BS4 means 13.2 Will miss (Legion Squads Equip every member with a heavy weapon)
26.8 Hits means that 4.466 fail to wound (22.334 Wounds)
Against 3+, 7.444 will fail, Resulting in 7.444 "Deflagrate" Hits
6.204 of those Wound
This results in another 2.068 Marines Dying
Total: 9.512 Kills
GRAV
45 Shots result in 15 misses
30 Hits Result in 20 Wounds
4+ Cover results in 10 Failed Saves
Total: 10 Kills
MELTA
9 Shots Result in 6 Hits
6 Hits Make 5 Wounds
4+ Cover Reduces this to 2.5 Failed Saves
Total: 2.5 Kills
So (With Rounding) Melta Does the Least with only 3 Kills On Average, Grav and Volkite both Beat that with 10 Kills
Against AV12, Volkite gets 4.466 Glances and Grav Gets 5, Melta just Blows up the Vehicle
Volkite is the Handymans version of Grav, High Enough Strength and Number of Shots to Hurt Many Things, and a Good Enough AP (or rule) to not be terrible against GEQs
Good Old Grandpa Volkite shows the Kids who is boss
commander dante wrote: *30k Player Jumps In*
"Volkite"
*Dashes Away at 200mph to avoid the hate*
But Seriously (In a 10 man Devastator Equilivent terms) 40 S6 AP5 shots at 45" range that Causes more S6 AP5 hits is nothing to sniff at
*The Math* (Assume all 10 man Squads are in Ruins and are in range and havent moved)
VOLKITE
40 shots at BS4 means 13.2 Will miss (Legion Squads Equip every member with a heavy weapon)
26.8 Hits means that 4.466 fail to wound (22.334 Wounds)
Against 3+, 7.444 will fail, Resulting in 7.444 "Deflagrate" Hits
6.204 of those Wound
This results in another 2.068 Marines Dying
Total: 9.512 Kills
GRAV
45 Shots result in 15 misses
30 Hits Result in 20 Wounds
4+ Cover results in 10 Failed Saves
Total: 10 Kills
MELTA
9 Shots Result in 6 Hits
6 Hits Make 5 Wounds
4+ Cover Reduces this to 2.5 Failed Saves
Total: 2.5 Kills
So (With Rounding) Melta Does the Least with only 3 Kills On Average, Grav and Volkite both Beat that with 10 Kills
Against AV12, Volkite gets 4.466 Glances and Grav Gets 5, Melta just Blows up the Vehicle
Volkite is the Handymans version of Grav, High Enough Strength and Number of Shots to Hurt Many Things, and a Good Enough AP (or rule) to not be terrible against GEQs
Good Old Grandpa Volkite shows the Kids who is boss
It could be partially tangential but.. what, at this point, justifies the "gets hot" on Plasma? In 3rd, when I started, it made sense because in the landscape of the general weaponry, Plasma was pretty powerful. Eldar cheated even then (and Tau, shortly after) but was 1 point less of Str. I digress.
Now... what's the point? Is the fluff? The same fluff that lead those hack frauds to write "gets hot" on the first draft of Hotshot volley guns?
Put it up against some Wraithknights, Riptides or heavier vehicles and we'll see if it pulls it's weight.
VS Riptide (Nova Charged Shield)
VOLKITE
40 Shots result in 26.667 hits
26.667 hits result in 13.333 Wounds
13.333 Wounds result in 2.222 Failed Saves
This results in 2.222 "Deflagrate" Hits
1.111 of those wound
This results in another 0.185 failed saves
Total=2.407 Wounds
GRAV (Not Moved)
45 Shots Result in 30 Hits
30 hits result in 15 wounds
5 Failed Saves
Total=5 Wounds
GRAV (Moved)
27 Shots Result in 18 Hits
18 Hits result in 6 wounds
6 Wounds Result in 2 Failed Saves
Total=2 Wounds
Plus Volkite has a 45" Range, whereas Grav has only 36"/18" range and lowers its shots if you moved (of which volkite would still outrange Grav by 3 inches even if the Grav Squad had Relentless)
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
Or we could appropriately cost the LRBT as they are...
It could be partially tangential but.. what, at this point, justifies the "gets hot" on Plasma? In 3rd, when I started, it made sense because in the landscape of the general weaponry, Plasma was pretty powerful. Eldar cheated even then (and Tau, shortly after) but was 1 point less of Str. I digress.
Now... what's the point? Is the fluff? The same fluff that lead those hack frauds to write "gets hot" on the first draft of Hotshot volley guns?
Realistically? It's just the fluff. Gets Hot is ridiculously unnecessary and absolutely ridiculous that it still exists on vehicle weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pumaman1 wrote: well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.
Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D
So your argument is that because Blood Angels can ally in things like Titans or someone can drop a huge chunk of money on a really poor quality resin model(Thunderhawk)...
BA have access to more Strength D than Tau, who literally just have to put Markerlights on a target and have a Stormsurge with Destroyer Missiles on the field?
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
Or we could appropriately cost the LRBT as they are...
It could be partially tangential but.. what, at this point, justifies the "gets hot" on Plasma? In 3rd, when I started, it made sense because in the landscape of the general weaponry, Plasma was pretty powerful. Eldar cheated even then (and Tau, shortly after) but was 1 point less of Str. I digress.
Now... what's the point? Is the fluff? The same fluff that lead those hack frauds to write "gets hot" on the first draft of Hotshot volley guns?
Realistically? It's just the fluff. Gets Hot is ridiculously unnecessary and absolutely ridiculous that it still exists on vehicle weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pumaman1 wrote: well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.
Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D
So your argument is that because Blood Angels can ally in things like Titans or someone can drop a huge chunk of money on a really poor quality resin model(Thunderhawk)...
BA have access to more Strength D than Tau, who literally just have to put Markerlights on a target and have a Stormsurge with Destroyer Missiles on the field?
I was thinking 120 for the basic Russ and adding back Lumbering Behemoth on top of that and working from there to see how people feel.
Put it up against some Wraithknights, Riptides or heavier vehicles and we'll see if it pulls it's weight.
VS Riptide (Nova Charged Shield)
GRAV (Not Moved)
45 Shots Result in 30 Hits
30 hits result in 15 wounds
5 Failed Saves
Total=5 Wounds
GRAV (Moved)
27 Shots Result in 18 Hits
18 Hits result in 6 wounds
6 Wounds Result in 2 Failed Saves
Total=2 Wounds
Plus Volkite has a 45" Range, whereas Grav has only 36"/18" range and lowers its shots if you moved (of which volkite would still outrange Grav by 3 inches even if the Grav Squad had Relentless)
Did you EVEN TRY to do the math???? It's totally wrong, in all the possible ways! Oh god, it's... how could you mess up so much? Like seriously, you didn't even get the wounding ratios to coincide between the two cases. Can you explain me how you go from wounding 2/3 of the hits to 1/3 of the hits just by moving??
The math would go the following way:
They make 40 shots (remember, you only can have 4 heavy wepons per squad) of grav cannons BUT 10 will be at BS5 (you didn't factor the signum at all), 30 at BS4 AND they'll re-roll failed to hit rolls as per the armorium cherub's special ability or the devastator doctrine from the ultras or the demi-company (so they can re-roll thrice). Also, grav-cannons have grav-amps as standard, they re-roll to wounds so that means that in your previous example you unintentionally lowered the damage output from the grav-marines (assuming the number of shots you said is the same) by a third (they'd have scored 13,35 wounds in that case, so it's a notable difference)
Thus it would be like this (against nova-charged riptide, no stimulant injector):
Grav (not moved)
40 shots roughly become 36.4 hits (10x0,972+32x0.89)
36.4 hits become 35.39 wounds, because they wound based on armor AND they re-roll to wound, so they have a 2+ re-rollable to wound the riptide.
That translates into a whooping 11.79 wounds unsaved, which I think is almost enough to slaughter a triptide (they were four wounds, weren't they?)
Grav (moved)
24 shots result in 21.882 hits
21.882 hits result in 21.38 wounds.
7.05 unsaved wounds, enough to kill a single ripitide in a round of shooting, which is curiously almost the same cost as one of the squads.
Also Grav cannons are 24''/12'' but it wouldn't matter if you take them in a skyhammer (which honestly, you SHOULD) because they'll be relentless AND they'll be right close to the target. So taking into account the inherent synergies of their codex and proper special rules, they'd utterly outdo the other guys.
Realistically? It's just the fluff. Gets Hot is ridiculously unnecessary and absolutely ridiculous that it still exists on vehicle weapons.
IIRC, gets hot on vehicles it was reintroduced in 6th, in 5th vehicles had cooling systems or something; am I wrong?
BTW, shortly thereafter the re-introduction of vehicles with gets hot, they introduced a Dark Angels flyer with few HP and a plasma weapon.
Is clear more than ever that the Hack Frauds (I will use capital letters) either do not playtest, or develop stuff independently and do not cross-check what the other """"designers"""" are doing.
Put it up against some Wraithknights, Riptides or heavier vehicles and we'll see if it pulls it's weight.
VS Riptide (Nova Charged Shield)
GRAV (Not Moved)
45 Shots Result in 30 Hits
30 hits result in 15 wounds
5 Failed Saves
Total=5 Wounds
GRAV (Moved)
27 Shots Result in 18 Hits
18 Hits result in 6 wounds
6 Wounds Result in 2 Failed Saves
Total=2 Wounds
Plus Volkite has a 45" Range, whereas Grav has only 36"/18" range and lowers its shots if you moved (of which volkite would still outrange Grav by 3 inches even if the Grav Squad had Relentless)
Did you EVEN TRY to do the math???? It's totally wrong, in all the possible ways! Oh god, it's... how could you mess up so much? Like seriously, you didn't even get the wounding ratios to coincide between the two cases. Can you explain me how you go from wounding 2/3 of the hits to 1/3 of the hits just by moving??
The math would go the following way:
They make 40 shots (remember, you only can have 4 heavy wepons per squad) of grav cannons BUT 10 will be at BS5 (you didn't factor the signum at all), 30 at BS4 AND they'll re-roll failed to hit rolls as per the armorium cherub's special ability or the devastator doctrine from the ultras or the demi-company (so they can re-roll thrice). Also, grav-cannons have grav-amps as standard, they re-roll to wounds so that means that in your previous example you unintentionally lowered the damage output from the grav-marines (assuming the number of shots you said is the same) by a third (they'd have scored 13,35 wounds in that case, so it's a notable difference)
Thus it would be like this (against nova-charged riptide, no stimulant injector):
Grav (not moved)
40 shots roughly become 36.4 hits (10x0,972+32x0.89)
36.4 hits become 35.39 wounds, because they wound based on armor AND they re-roll to wound, so they have a 2+ re-rollable to wound the riptide.
That translates into a whooping 11.79 wounds unsaved, which I think is almost enough to slaughter a triptide (they were four wounds, weren't they?)
Grav (moved)
24 shots result in 21.882 hits
21.882 hits result in 21.38 wounds.
7.05 unsaved wounds, enough to kill a single ripitide in a round of shooting, which is curiously almost the same cost as one of the squads.
Also Grav cannons are 24''/12'' but it wouldn't matter if you take them in a skyhammer (which honestly, you SHOULD) because they'll be relentless AND they'll be right close to the target. So taking into account the inherent synergies of their codex and proper special rules, they'd utterly outdo the other guys.
To top it off I'd also mention that the presence of Grav will basically force the Riptide to Nova it's shield, whereas the Volkites will not, leaving the Riptide free to overcharge his weapons instead. Grav also has Concussive, making an unkilled Riptide I 1 in combat, which is occasionally useful. If you run the numbers vs. a Wraithknight, Grav will pull even further ahead (Volkites are wounding on 6's, Gravs on 3 and re-rolling.) Grav can (and will) hurt a Land Raider, Volkite can't touch it.
There's no contest, it's Grav Cannons all day every day from a competitive standpoint. Volkites are a nifty Heavy Bolter. They're great against light/medium vehicles and medium troops in cover, but they just can't handle the heavier hitters nearly as well as Grav.
TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.
Lord Kragan wrote: TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.
Riptides that fail Nova die to grav pretty readily. They go from soaking 78% of wounds to only 55%.
Against AV12, Volkite gets 4.466 Glances and Grav Gets 5, Melta just Blows up the Vehicle
Volkite is the Handymans version of Grav, High Enough Strength and Number of Shots to Hurt Many Things, and a Good Enough AP (or rule) to not be terrible against GEQs
Good Old Grandpa Volkite shows the Kids who is boss
Also, it grav doesn't glance, it immobilizes. That is huge because that means that, assuming we shoot at wave serpent squadron or a 3-vehicle squadron with 3hp, we are dealing 7HP's (1 from immobilized and 2 from the following one). Also, doing 1hp is a bigger deal than the volkite as it can stop that vehicle on its tracks. And don't get me started against AV13/AV14 or flare shields.
Lord Kragan wrote: TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.
Lord Kragan wrote: TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.
1/3, on a roll of 1 or 2, no saves allowed.
He might have been assuming it was a Riptide from the Riptidewing formation. Quick math says its 1/3 of failing with another 1/3 of failing - due to the reroll failed attempts. I'm assuming that's how he got the 1/6.
The real math is 1/3 chance of failing and another 1/3 off of the original 1/3 chance of failing. Or more simply 1/9 (11% fail rate, 89% success rate)
Against AV12, Volkite gets 4.466 Glances and Grav Gets 5, Melta just Blows up the Vehicle
Volkite is the Handymans version of Grav, High Enough Strength and Number of Shots to Hurt Many Things, and a Good Enough AP (or rule) to not be terrible against GEQs
Good Old Grandpa Volkite shows the Kids who is boss
Also, it grav doesn't glance, it immobilizes. That is huge because that means that, assuming we shoot at wave serpent squadron or a 3-vehicle squadron with 3hp, we are dealing 7HP's (1 from immobilized and 2 from the following one). Also, doing 1hp is a bigger deal than the volkite as it can stop that vehicle on its tracks. And don't get me started against AV13/AV14 or flare shields.
IMO that's a liability, not an advantage. Every casualty you take is going to cost you points and damage output. How much does does a full Volkite cost anyways?
Edit: Devastators also max at 4. What are you using for reference?
IMO that's a liability, not an advantage. Every casualty you take is going to cost you points and damage output. How much does does a full Volkite cost anyways?
Edit: Devastators also max at 4. What are you using for reference?
Sorry, my bad
Due to how Heavy Support Squads work, i assume the Sgt takes a heavy weapon as well
A Full Volkite Squad costs 335
If all 10 men of a Devastator squad could take 10 Grav Cannons, it would cost 490 points
2 Devastator Squads with 4 Grav Cannons each (5 men) costs 420 points
Plus Heavy Support Squad sgts can take Artificer Armour for 10 points, to tank weak arms fire/AP3 Weapons (Every HH player hates it) and can take Hardened Armour, allowing them to reroll failed saves VS Blast and Template Weapons for 25 points and counts as void hardened in Zone Mortalis
So in total they cost 370 points and are more survivable than Devastators
I like having mathematical statistics to look at, even if it involves weaponry not really relevant to me. However, seeing as this is the "Big melta vs grav debate," how would the weapons fare against a unit such as an Imperial Knight? Statistically speaking, is melta or grav more dangerous to an IK? When the weapons are in optimal conditions (close range for meltas, stationary for grav)? What about in suboptimal conditions? Which is more points effective for this particular purpose? If I knew the numbers, I'd go do the math myself, but I'm not familiar with IK or grav stats. Let's go get some data.
Melta is much better vs IK, because IK ignore immobilized.
You need nine BS 4 grav gun shots to generate a single hull point BEFORE the ion shield. The grav cannon fares better, only needing five BS 4 grav cannon shots to generate a single hull point.
A BS 4 melta shot strips 0.55 base hull points, plus another 0.32 from explodes results for a total of 0.87 per melta shot. So it is roughly one hp per melta shot, or about the same damage as the five grav cannon shots.
IMO that's a liability, not an advantage. Every casualty you take is going to cost you points and damage output. How much does does a full Volkite cost anyways?
Edit: Devastators also max at 4. What are you using for reference?
Sorry, my bad
Due to how Heavy Support Squads work, i assume the Sgt takes a heavy weapon as well
A Full Volkite Squad costs 335
If all 10 men of a Devastator squad could take 10 Grav Cannons, it would cost 490 points
2 Devastator Squads with 4 Grav Cannons each (5 men) costs 420 points
Plus Heavy Support Squad sgts can take Artificer Armour for 10 points, to tank weak arms fire/AP3 Weapons (Every HH player hates it) and can take Hardened Armour, allowing them to reroll failed saves VS Blast and Template Weapons for 25 points and counts as void hardened in Zone Mortalis
So in total they cost 370 points and are more survivable than Devastators
I'd rather just have the single ten man Deavstator unit with 4 Cannons for 280, plus a Drop Pod (potentially free Pod, or potentially Relentless on arrival.) It's more flexible (can Combat Squad against lighter armies and engage heavier targets like 13+ armor, 2+ armor and T8 WKs), more mobile (Pod), more resilient (Can take casualties before main guns are affected) and costs less.
There just is something not right about spending 370 for ten Power armored guys who can't damage an Imperial Knight from the front, and would struggle against a Wraithknight. The targets that Grav is not good against tend to be targets that Bolters are effective against, whereas if you're taking Volkites you still have to bring additional options in order to handle tougher targets.
Lord Kragan wrote: TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.
1/3, on a roll of 1 or 2, no saves allowed.
Errr, no, I mixed up: it's actually 66% chance: half the time we go first and the riptide DIES, and out of that other half we get a 33% chance of not working up. So 66% of the riptide NOT getting the shield pumped.
IMO that's a liability, not an advantage. Every casualty you take is going to cost you points and damage output. How much does does a full Volkite cost anyways?
Edit: Devastators also max at 4. What are you using for reference?
Sorry, my bad
Due to how Heavy Support Squads work, i assume the Sgt takes a heavy weapon as well
A Full Volkite Squad costs 335
If all 10 men of a Devastator squad could take 10 Grav Cannons, it would cost 490 points
2 Devastator Squads with 4 Grav Cannons each (5 men) costs 420 points
Plus Heavy Support Squad sgts can take Artificer Armour for 10 points, to tank weak arms fire/AP3 Weapons (Every HH player hates it) and can take Hardened Armour, allowing them to reroll failed saves VS Blast and Template Weapons for 25 points and counts as void hardened in Zone Mortalis
So in total they cost 370 points and are more survivable than Devastators
I'd rather just have the single ten man Deavstator unit with 4 Cannons for 280, plus a Drop Pod (potentially free Pod, or potentially Relentless on arrival.) It's more flexible (can Combat Squad against lighter armies and engage heavier targets like 13+ armor, 2+ armor and T8 WKs), more mobile (Pod), more resilient (Can take casualties before main guns are affected) and costs less.
There just is something not right about spending 370 for ten Power armored guys who can't damage an Imperial Knight from the front, and would struggle against a Wraithknight. The targets that Grav is not good against tend to be targets that Bolters are effective against, whereas if you're taking Volkites you still have to bring additional options in order to handle tougher targets.
Yeah but its heresy, we get S8+ Weapons by the Shedload (and AP3/2/1 By the Shedload as well)
Plus Shedloads of Rad Weaponry, which Lowers Toughness
Electrodisplacement. Attach a Librarian to your Devastators. Use some Scouts to get into position, then use Electrodisplacement to swap their positions. Electrodisplacement makea no mention of counting as moving, so your Grav Cannon Devastators will count as being stationary. Fire all 20 Grav Cannon+Grav Amp shots at the intended target.
All for the low price of a Librarian and some Scouts on top of your Devastator Squad. Hardly a cheap strategy. :( Especially since it isn't even remotely guaranteed to go off.
A Stimtide is saving a little over half its wounds. So with the drop pod and 12 Grav Cannon shots, 8 will land and 7 will likely wound. The Riptide therefore survived and will kill everything next turn, granted it'll be at maybe 2 wounds left.
And yet it dies like a bitch to grav-cannons, doubly so if it's a skyhammer or with a cataphractii captain.
Do you not see the issue here?
If something that requires you to dump 15-20 shots(depending on if you moved or not) wounding at 2+ with AP2 is 255 points...there's a problem.
Additionally? Please. Skyhammer at a Tau army that is battlesuit heavy and has EWOs. See what happens.
I can tell you from running the Raven Guard formations and Detachments in Kauyon that it doesn't end well.
Riptides and Wraithknights are, at this juncture, two of the most broken things in 40k thanks to a combination of points costs and ridiculous survival aspects.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: A Stimtide is saving a little over half its wounds. So with the drop pod and 12 Grav Cannon shots, 8 will land and 7 will likely wound. The Riptide therefore survived and will kill everything next turn, granted it'll be at maybe 2 wounds left.
And yet it dies like a bitch to grav-cannons, doubly so if it's a skyhammer or with a cataphractii captain.
Attaching a Captain like that to Devastators is a great way to lose lots of points.
Eh, no... devastators with a cherub, which is 5pts so not exactly bank breaking (specially considering you're deeming the riptide got a 25pts upgrade) and I'm already factoring in, will get 11 hits and 10.747 wounds... so maybe eleven. That's a dead riptide.
And yet a cataphractii captain with shield eternal/chain of the gorgon will tank neatly the wounds
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: A Stimtide is saving a little over half its wounds. So with the drop pod and 12 Grav Cannon shots, 8 will land and 7 will likely wound. The Riptide therefore survived and will kill everything next turn, granted it'll be at maybe 2 wounds left.
And yet it dies like a bitch to grav-cannons, doubly so if it's a skyhammer or with a cataphractii captain.
Attaching a Captain like that to Devastators is a great way to lose lots of points.
Eh, no... devastators with a cherub, which is 5pts so not exactly bank breaking (specially considering you're deeming the riptide got a 25pts upgrade) and I'm already factoring in, will get 11 hits and 10.747 wounds... so maybe eleven. That's a dead riptide.
5 points for a reroll of all failed to hit rolls for a single model within the squad.
So yeah, while not exactly bank breaking...not exactly a great item either.
And yet a cataphractii captain with shield eternal/chain of the gorgon will tank neatly the wounds
So basically it requires you to take an Iron Hands detachment.
Huh, weird, don't know why but though it was a re-roll for all the uni. Then again I haven't touched the game in seven mothst. Nevermind then.
Nevertheless, aside from liking the models, there's really not much of a reason to not play vanilla instead of any other flavour in the current game. As it is, vanilla marines are the most OP army in the game thanks to the epic power of grav.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: A Stimtide is saving a little over half its wounds. So with the drop pod and 12 Grav Cannon shots, 8 will land and 7 will likely wound. The Riptide therefore survived and will kill everything next turn, granted it'll be at maybe 2 wounds left.
And yet it dies like a bitch to grav-cannons, doubly so if it's a skyhammer or with a cataphractii captain.
Attaching a Captain like that to Devastators is a great way to lose lots of points.
Eh, no... devastators with a cherub, which is 5pts so not exactly bank breaking (specially considering you're deeming the riptide got a 25pts upgrade) and I'm already factoring in, will get 11 hits and 10.747 wounds... so maybe eleven. That's a dead riptide.
And yet a cataphractii captain with shield eternal/chain of the gorgon will tank neatly the wounds
It isn't as the Riptide will save half of those, which means less than six wounds.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: A Stimtide is saving a little over half its wounds. So with the drop pod and 12 Grav Cannon shots, 8 will land and 7 will likely wound. The Riptide therefore survived and will kill everything next turn, granted it'll be at maybe 2 wounds left.
And yet it dies like a bitch to grav-cannons, doubly so if it's a skyhammer or with a cataphractii captain.
Attaching a Captain like that to Devastators is a great way to lose lots of points.
Eh, no... devastators with a cherub, which is 5pts so not exactly bank breaking (specially considering you're deeming the riptide got a 25pts upgrade) and I'm already factoring in, will get 11 hits and 10.747 wounds... so maybe eleven. That's a dead riptide.
And yet a cataphractii captain with shield eternal/chain of the gorgon will tank neatly the wounds
It isn't as the Riptide will save half of those, which means less than six wounds.
there is no debate, grav is the best weapon in the entire game, slightly better than D weapons when you factor in doctrines for re-roll to hit and re-rolls to wound that marine players get with grav amps. Especially when playing ITC rules and gimped ranged D.
PyrhusOfEpirus wrote: there is no debate, grav is the best weapon in the entire game, slightly better than D weapons when you factor in doctrines for re-roll to hit and re-rolls to wound that marine players get with grav amps. Especially when playing ITC rules and gimped ranged D.
Doctrines aren't always available. So don't factor those in, unless it's an Ultramarines player or someone using the Gladius.
PyrhusOfEpirus wrote: there is no debate, grav is the best weapon in the entire game, slightly better than D weapons when you factor in doctrines for re-roll to hit and re-rolls to wound that marine players get with grav amps. Especially when playing ITC rules and gimped ranged D.
Doctrines aren't always available. So don't factor those in, unless it's an Ultramarines player or someone using the Gladius.
With Centos we're rocking 4 Tac Doctrines a game
Yes, grav is pretty incredible at the moment (I don't think it will last), but those re-rolls pour on that special reliability sauce.
)
