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KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/02 21:53:27
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase.
Meltas are better against Super Heavy Vehicles where the whole "subsequent Immobilized result = another hull point lost" drek doesn't work, but otherwise Gravs are the better bet in nearly every situation.
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
I'm sure it'd be the target of much pre-emptive fire
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
Or we could appropriately cost the LRBT as they are...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
KommissarKiln wrote: I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.
Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?
It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".
How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10? That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.
I'm sure it'd be the target of much pre-emptive fire
...Imagine PASK on that thing
Yup, no doubt on that. I have to say that this gak joke I just made might be the Guards best solution to the MCs and GMC, and bring the most iconic tanks in 40k back. AND it will let GW gain profit from IG Faction.
Crimson Devil wrote: To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.
It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.
Grav are bad game design mainly because a model is penalised for something has paid more.
There are weapons (like some Eldar one) that target Initiative, and used to be weapons targeting Discipline (the Callidus shooting attack before the current edition - or it was before 5th?). But in both cases, a model is, or would have been, more vulnerable to such weapons the smaller the targeted score is. In other terms, there still would be a linear relationship between the greater point cost of the model cost and its survivability.
Yes, generally Initiative is not related to defense (but against some Psychic Powers and other weird effects already was), but at the very least a model would not be penalised for something has paid more. Armor and invulnerable saves sometimes can nothing against massed plasma, and a model is saved just avoiding contact with his mobility. That thing costs points too.
Grav affecting armor is dumb, because armor is expected to be the primary defense stat. I select models on my army list and say "ok these guys have a 2+, they are the toughest, get them and buy their models because I want a resilient unit" - NOPE
Grav is, by far, the lowest of the low in GW rule design. Not even the D shenanigans of the Eldar (but that and fast attacks as troops with 1 heavy weapon each is another very close abomination) or the Riptide rules puked (I refuse to say "written") by Jeremy "I cannot do math" Vetock are that bad. That stuff is overpowered, Grav is overpowered and counterintuitive. Is DUMB, which is worse than evil. You can redeem evil, you cannot redeem dumb.
And before "b-but we need it for monsters like the riptide". No you use plasma and melta like the "less fortunate". Have Ork and IG grav? Otherwise next time something even dumber than the riptide will come out as an unkillable crap. Grav are the finest example of escalation and will see worse in the future.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2016/10/03 09:25:30
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
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In my understanding grav is something given to SM chapters to compensate for the use of D weapons from the other races. Grav is kinda bad rule wise but it seems almost necessary in the current environment to make marines to keep up with more competitive armies, like Eldar or Tau. On the other hand armies like GK are heavily penalized from Grav since it makes short work of everything they bring on the table.
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Capamaru wrote: In my understanding grav is something given to SM chapters to compensate for the use of D weapons from the other races. Grav is kinda bad rule wise but it seems almost necessary in the current environment to make marines to keep up with more competitive armies, like Eldar or Tau. On the other hand armies like GK are heavily penalized from Grav since it makes short work of everything they bring on the table.
Or perhaps the problem is stuff like D weapons, scatterbikes and riptides, and GW should tune down that stuff instead of giving a broken weapon to an already good army and ignoring CSM, IG, Orks...
Why are the SM always the parameter to adjust and balance stuff? why if allows SM to remain competitive is ok?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/03 10:35:43
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
Capamaru wrote: In my understanding grav is something given to SM chapters to compensate for the use of D weapons from the other races. Grav is kinda bad rule wise but it seems almost necessary in the current environment to make marines to keep up with more competitive armies, like Eldar or Tau. On the other hand armies like GK are heavily penalized from Grav since it makes short work of everything they bring on the table.
Or perhaps the problem is stuff like D weapons, scatterbikes and riptides, and GW should tune down that stuff instead of giving a broken weapon to an already good army and ignoring CSM, IG, Orks...
Why are the SM always the parameter to adjust and balance stuff? why if allows SM to remain competitive is ok?
Because SM is GWs favoured child.
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For the Emperor and Sanguinius!
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Crimson Devil wrote: To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.
It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.
Grav are bad game design mainly because a model is penalised for something has paid more.
There are weapons (like some Eldar one) that target Initiative, and used to be weapons targeting Discipline (the Callidus shooting attack before the current edition - or it was before 5th?). But in both cases, a model is, or would have been, more vulnerable to such weapons the smaller the targeted score is. In other terms, there still would be a linear relationship between the greater point cost of the model cost and its survivability.
Yes, generally Initiative is not related to defense (but against some Psychic Powers and other weird effects already was), but at the very least a model would not be penalised for something has paid more. Armor and invulnerable saves sometimes can nothing against massed plasma, and a model is saved just avoiding contact with his mobility. That thing costs points too.
Grav affecting armor is dumb, because armor is expected to be the primary defense stat. I select models on my army list and say "ok these guys have a 2+, they are the toughest, get them and buy their models because I want a resilient unit" - NOPE
Grav is, by far, the lowest of the low in GW rule design. Not even the D shenanigans of the Eldar (but that and fast attacks as troops with 1 heavy weapon each is another very close abomination) or the Riptide rules puked (I refuse to say "written") by Jeremy "I cannot do math" Vetock are that bad. That stuff is overpowered, Grav is overpowered and counterintuitive. Is DUMB, which is worse than evil. You can redeem evil, you cannot redeem dumb.
And before "b-but we need it for monsters like the riptide". No you use plasma and melta like the "less fortunate". Have Ork and IG grav? Otherwise next time something even dumber than the riptide will come out as an unkillable crap. Grav are the finest example of escalation and will see worse in the future.
Add to the list of design flaws that grav has the fact that it is exactly as likely to damage an Imperial Guard Sentinel or a Rhino as a Land Raider or a Warlord Titan... I mean really?
The adeptus mechanicus can't stick a couple of plastic sprockets in the leg joints to keep the plates on, they invented ceremite armour to invalidate Melta, they can't come up with something to make thier main hardened battle APC more resistant than an orc Trukk?
Blood Angels are the worst evaaah. Riptides / whatever else is remotely good is the bane of game balance, and as such Grav is not OP. It is a necessity. Bolter Marines are just extra wounds, and everything else is better than a Marine with a bolter, in every way, ever. Ummm.... and only ever take one Power Fist per 5 Death Company, regardless of the relevance of mentioning that.
In this way, you can avoid summoning He-That-Repeats-The-Same-Four-Points in every post, regardless of how unrelated the thread may be. Every time. Every thread.
...
I'm serious. Every. Single. Thread.
I lol'd.
On topic, I mostly equip my (Imperial Fists tactics) Tactical squads with Grav Cannon, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, and Melta-guns, as those are the best weapons for firing on the move. I stay away from Grav Cannon on Devastators unless they're deploying in a Drop Pod or Rhino as otherwise the short range hampers them.
I do take the occasional Flamer or Grav Gun in my Tactical squads as sometimes you want to roast xenos infantry or have a unit that's not going to do much moving.
Add to the list of design flaws that grav has the fact that it is exactly as likely to damage an Imperial Guard Sentinel or a Rhino as a Land Raider or a Warlord Titan... I mean really?
The adeptus mechanicus can't stick a couple of plastic sprockets in the leg joints to keep the plates on, they invented ceremite armour to invalidate Melta, they can't come up with something to make thier main hardened battle APC more resistant than an orc Trukk?
AHAHAHA oh my gods true. who designed those things Crud-dace?
It looks something written by a guy that designed a weapon Heavy 20 often less useful than many Heavy 4. A knee-jerk reaction to the Riptide of Jeremy "cannot into math" Vetock. Kindergarden level.
Vetock: "My super robot has super shields.. a-and 2+ armor" Cruddace: "I laser it ZZZZZAAAAPPP" Vetock: "no because my super robot has a super pilot that is edgy and does drugs and has 5+ FnP" Cruddace: "cheater" Vetock: "no you cheater" Cruddace: "copycat" Vetock: "you are just jealous of my super-robot"
So little Cruddy went to design Grav weapons. Vetty will learn his place. After all,Space Marines are the bestest ever they cannot be beaten.
And I used to criticise Ward.
*Looks at camera with serious, imploring expression* Matt come back. All is forgiven. You wrote stuff that broke entire games in half, but at least you had an internal consistence. A game with your codices only (codices only written by the Talented Mr. Ward, I mean) would have been diverse and somewhat functional. Those hack frauds don't even manage to do that.
Mind it this is after they nerfed power weapons in CC in a way that unless you are a fragile eldar, you cannot have high str VP2 and strike at initiative. But now look at gravs, look at Deathwing and tell with a straight face, without crying or laughing, that they belong to the same game. Later they crapped on this concept in melee as well but whatever. They totally lack of vision. Is sad and disconcerting.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/10/04 00:08:49
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
Ah yes, because it was Grav that made Deathwing and Terminators bad for several editions, and not the fact they're not too durable for the cost and have absolutely no firepower for the cost, which is their worst offense.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, because it was Grav that made Deathwing and Terminators bad for several editions, and not the fact they're not too durable for the cost and have absolutely no firepower for the cost, which is their worst offense.
Come on now, you know that it's not what I meant. And anyway, did it make it better, or deteriorated an already bad situation of power escalation? Because that is what killed termie across editions, one piece at time.
Just, now more and more models are affected by the "Terminator Sickness".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/03 14:42:39
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, because it was Grav that made Deathwing and Terminators bad for several editions, and not the fact they're not too durable for the cost and have absolutely no firepower for the cost, which is their worst offense.
Come on now, you know that it's not what I meant. And anyway, did it make it better, or deteriorated an already bad situation of power escalation? Because that is what killed termie across editions, one piece at time.
Just, now more and more models are affected by the "Terminator Sickness".
It IS what you mean in the end though.
Terminators have been gak for years and we still have people in denial about this, and then proclaim Grav to be an offender? No. You can name ONE edition where they were even mildly useful (4th) and I still say they weren't anything to fear.
Grav is just another thing that we ignore Terminators with. Going on to say Grav is broken (it isn't but it needs to be fixed) and using Terminators as an example of a unit that suffers is pure bollocks.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
If you take away Grav-amps, then maybe lower the shots of the Grav cannon to 3/4 (maybe with a 5-10 pt decrease) and it becomes much more "even" with Melta. Melta can still wound, but is way better against AV, and Grav would be able to hurt AV but is way better against T/armour saves.
Both are still better that Plasma sadly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/03 19:37:29
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, because it was Grav that made Deathwing and Terminators bad for several editions, and not the fact they're not too durable for the cost and have absolutely no firepower for the cost, which is their worst offense.
Come on now, you know that it's not what I meant. And anyway, did it make it better, or deteriorated an already bad situation of power escalation? Because that is what killed termie across editions, one piece at time.
Just, now more and more models are affected by the "Terminator Sickness".
It IS what you mean in the end though.
Terminators have been gak for years and we still have people in denial about this, and then proclaim Grav to be an offender? No. You can name ONE edition where they were even mildly useful (4th) and I still say they weren't anything to fear.
Grav is just another thing that we ignore Terminators with. Going on to say Grav is broken (it isn't but it needs to be fixed) and using Terminators as an example of a unit that suffers is pure bollocks.
We termicided with caos quite effectively in 3rd, some still do (dunno, I left my chaos army in another country, it's been years).
And I am sorry, I explained why I think grav is stupid; I explained when I said that a model is damaged more if more points are spent on a resource (a resource that is supposed to be one of defensive ones!). This is counter-intuitive to the point system and it should not be allowed. And please let's not go on the route "b-but point system is so 1990". Is not if the designers care.
THEN I said: look at terminators, or look at other stuff if you please, is an example, and tell me if they can play together. The answer, as you say, is not. The point is that people say wee ned-ed grav for big monsters; I think that things should be tuned down or more and more units, like termies, will "go sick" and disappear.
If you want to put more words in my mouth, go ahead.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2016/10/03 22:21:36
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
pumaman1 wrote: Terminator sickness, cannot move the turn it was summoned, and prone to unde perfoming it's similar costed newer rivals
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
Grav is great, by far the best heavy weapon the Space Marines have. BUT, Melta is incredibly useful to have for Superheavy Vehicles, and occasionally for IDing things. In my competitive builds I bring a healthy mix. The most important thing to remember with Melta is that they need to be fired on the move. This means you are better taking Meltaguns instead of Multimeltas for any foot troops, or bringing your Multimeltas on mobile platforms like Land Speeders or Dreadnoughts. The Land Speeder Squadron outfitted with six Multimeltas is only OK for most Chapters, since Vehicles don't get to take advantage of Chapter Tactics. But for Salamanders with Vulkan Hes'tan? Total Win IMO for hunting those Imperial Knights.
My ten man Tactical Squad optimized for a Drop Pod is Grav-Cannon, Meltagun, Combi-Melta. If taking a Rhino, then I'll go all Grav. If building for the full Battle Company, some 5-man squads with Meltagun/Combi-melta are an ideal buy in the free Drop Pods, as well as a Command Squad with 5 Meltaguns. If mounted in Rhinos take the 5-man Tacs with Grav Cannons.
There are occasions when I miss my Plasmas or Flamers, but they're pretty rare, and Assault Squads pick up the slack on the Flamers. I will probably re-equip one Squad with Plasma/Combi-Plasma at some point, just to have it around.
Well, given that Grav isn't even an option for CSM, nevermind the fact that CSM is supposed to be the one still hanging on to "ancient" tech weapons. Its a mote issue when it comes to CSM, so obviously melta.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, given that Grav isn't even an option for CSM, nevermind the fact that CSM is supposed to be the one still hanging on to "ancient" tech weapons. Its a mote issue when it comes to CSM, so obviously melta.
As an IG player, I'm rather uninformed when it comes to Grav tech fluff. Was it recently invented or rediscovered (recently being very late m41, like the last 100 years), or is it something that's been more or less anti-retconned ("What? Grav weaponry has always been around, why are you acting like it's new?") by GW? That may have a rather potent impact on who gets access to grav if/when codices like IG, SoB, less popular SM chapters and CSM finally get their codices updated.
BA just got grav cannons and they are actually pretty hard to abuse, or even use really, with no access to skyhammer. You don't see DA with grav cannons often, either.
The Empire 
1500 pts
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