Josh and I had a long discussion on whether or not you were supposed to "deploy" via Cult Ambush (if you choose to of course), or whether they just arrive on the Genestealer Cult first turn.
I had just assumed that once it was time to do Infiltrations, I take a unit that I want to Infiltrate, declare that it's using the Cult Ambush rules, roll on the Cult Ambush chart, and then "deploy" them on the board.
Josh thought that it might mean that instead, you just hold off on those until your first turn, and then roll on the table. I like this second option as it makes the Cult more powerful, but I didn't think it was right, so we did it the other way.
The other weird part is that it says you can't move in the Movement phase on the "turn" that you deploy or arrive from reserves. Well, you don't "deploy" on any turn. It's before the game starts. Does it mean the first turn? Or does it use the word "deploy" to mean the options 3+ on the table where you "set up" your models?
The Cult Ambush abilities are just a form of Infiltration. You choose to deploy which ever units that are going to Infiltrate and then choose to roll on the table if you want to use the ambush rules.
I had totally missed the part about not being able to move in the movement phase which changes a few ideas I had originally come up with.
I agree with the first part (although I also agree that it could be wrong), but I don't agree that you can't move first turn.
It says the "turn" you deploy. When you deploy it is not yet a turn. I wonder if when they say "deploy" they mean the 3+ results on the Cult Ambush table that say you "set up" your models.
There is no restriction that the Primus in a Subterranean Uprising must actually join any of the units from the Uprising itself. Could the Primus join a unit that's not from this formation, so long as that unit also deployed by Cult Ambush? For example, could he join a unit of Neophytes from the First Circle or Doting Throng? If yes, would he count as being a unit from the Subterranean Uprising, and thus allow the Neophytes to roll 2d6-pick one?
There is no restriction that the Primus in a Subterranean Uprising must actually join any of the units from the Uprising itself. Could the Primus join a unit that's not from this formation, so long as that unit also deployed by Cult Ambush? For example, could he join a unit of Neophytes from the First Circle or Doting Throng? If yes, would he count as being a unit from the Subterranean Uprising, and thus allow the Neophytes to roll 2d6-pick one?
Formation special rules do not confer to units outside of the formation. IC do not confer their rules to units they are attached to and vice versa. Otherwise they are considered to be a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Not only would the other unit not get to roll 3 dice, the primus would not either.
Josh and I had a long discussion on whether or not you were supposed to "deploy" via Cult Ambush (if you choose to of course), or whether they just arrive on the Genestealer Cult first turn.
I had just assumed that once it was time to do Infiltrations, I take a unit that I want to Infiltrate, declare that it's using the Cult Ambush rules, roll on the Cult Ambush chart, and then "deploy" them on the board.
Josh thought that it might mean that instead, you just hold off on those until your first turn, and then roll on the table. I like this second option as it makes the Cult more powerful, but I didn't think it was right, so we did it the other way.
The other weird part is that it says you can't move in the Movement phase on the "turn" that you deploy or arrive from reserves. Well, you don't "deploy" on any turn. It's before the game starts. Does it mean the first turn? Or does it use the word "deploy" to mean the options 3+ on the table where you "set up" your models?
So how do you think it should be played?
You do not deploy via Ambush. You deploy via infiltrate which allows you to roll on the table. After that you are correct, deployment is not turn so you can still move on the following (first) turn. It's more powerful to hit the table during deployment. A roll of 5 will let you shoot during deployment before the game even begins.
Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.
miniwargaming wrote: Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.
At the very least it is ambiguous. I'm still not 100% sure
iirc in the FAQ there was a similar question about letting the Genestealers and the Patriarch infiltaring when Deathwatch Overkill formation was the only way to play GSC
As I pointed out in another thread, I think the first part of the rule is what qualifies you to use Cult Ambush; you have to Infiltrate or be arriving from Reserves. However, if you meet the requirements, the rule explicitly states that *instead* of using the normal rules for deploying or arriving from reserves, you roll on the Cult Ambush table which has its own rules. At that point, I you don't use the normal rules for Infiltrate or arriving from Reserves. I would then argue that, with the Ghosar Quintis Broodkin FAQ being very relevant to this discussion as it too is a modification or replacement of the normal Infiltration rules, you would then not be affected by rules that interact with the normal rules for Infiltrating...like Servo Skulls.
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally."
Okay, from this special rule, it sounds like the unit must have already successfully been selected to Infiltrate or to successfully arrive from Reserves. At that point, you get to roll for Cult Ambush and continue from there. The next part says,
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."
So, from the sound of this, you are either deploying the unit (such as during deployment), or are arrive from Reserves. This means that the unit which is Infiltrating is now deploying via Cult Ambush.
So, due to some poor wording, it may sound like you are arriving with these units instead of deploying, but the wording itself (and ever other location that it seems to come up) specifies deploying OR arriving via the Cult Ambush, and one could only deploy via Cult Ambush if you were, in fact, deploying.
You set up before the game as per infiltrate. That part is normal and understood. When the rules refer to not moving in the movement phase that turn, they are referring to redeploying from ongoing reserves. That happened at the start of the movement phase, or rather before it, and so would put your super infiltrating units even closer to enemies than wanted.
miniwargaming wrote: Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.
The rule never has any line that says "instead of infiltrating".
40k has permission based rules. A model can only do what it has permission to do under the circumstances that allow it to do those things.
i.e. a model that is infantry has permission to move 6" during the movement phase.
The cult ambush rule has very clear requirements for when you can use it and what it does.
1 - The Requirments) The unit must either be a) infiltrating or b) arriving from reserves or ongoing reserves
2 - The Permissions) If A or B then the unit has permission to roll on the Cult Ambush Chart. It doesn't have to mind you, it just has the option to.
3 - The restrictions/permissions that are redacted) It must follow the result on the chart instead of whatever it would have been doing before rolling on the chart (i.e. you could not choose instead to infiltrate normally if you happened to roll a 1 or 2). It cannot move during the movement phase in which it arrives.
At no point in the rule does it say it replaces the infiltration that it HAS to be doing to use the chart to begin with. It does not say you can a) deploy normally, b) infiltrate, or c) cult ambush. It, in fact, says you HAVE to be doing b for any other part of the rule to take effect. Cult ambush is a roll added during infiltrate that modifies your permissions. It's still infiltrate.
You forgot one restriction, one that Yarium pointed out:
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."
If infiltrating, that's not an issue, but if the unit is coming on from reserves, you still have the restriction of having to make a Reserves roll to see what turn you come on. When you are arriving from Reserve, then you roll on the CA table to see how you're coming on. It's a point some people are ignoring in the other thread on this were ignoring, thinking that anything in reserves was also coming in on turn 1 when it isnt.
doctortom wrote: You forgot one restriction, one that Yarium pointed out:
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."
If infiltrating, that's not an issue, but if the unit is coming on from reserves, you still have the restriction of having to make a Reserves roll to see what turn you come on. When you are arriving from Reserve, then you roll on the CA table to see how you're coming on. It's a point some people are ignoring in the other thread on this were ignoring, thinking that anything in reserves was also coming in on turn 1 when it isnt.
I agree. We were specifically talking about infiltration so I was focusing in on that. But entering from reserves requires a roll like normal. You do not get permission to roll on the ambush table until you arrive from reserves. Ambush does not replace it, it only modifies it.
Lance845 wrote: I agree. We were specifically talking about infiltration so I was focusing in on that. But entering from reserves requires a roll like normal. You do not get permission to roll on the ambush table until you arrive from reserves. Ambush does not replace it, it only modifies it.
I did ask this question on Facebook after watching the BatRep (good video, BTW, Matt. Hopefully the Dice Gods will show you more favor next time, though). Hopefully I'll get a response or it'll be addressed in a GSCFAQ.
miniwargaming wrote: Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.
The rule never has any line that says "instead of infiltrating".
"....instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally." It actually does in the first sentence. Infiltration is a form of deployment, see the rulebook pg 167.
So yes, Cult Ambush is performed as a replacement to infiltration per deployment.
miniwargaming wrote: Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.
The rule never has any line that says "instead of infiltrating".
"....instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally." It actually does in the first sentence. Infiltration is a form of deployment, see the rulebook pg 167.
So yes, Cult Ambush is performed as a replacement to infiltration per deployment.
Quoting about 1/3rd of the first sentence to say that it say "instead of infiltrating" when the words "infiltrate" and "infiltrating" are nowhere in the quote you are providing is just plain crap evidence to support your argument.
Lets quote the entire sentence.
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally."
Lets take that all in together as the single statement that it is instead of picking out only the parts you want.
Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve,
The unit needs the special rule Cult Ambush and if deploying it must Infiltrate to use cult ambush. Otherwise it must be entering the table from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve. Important here. If the unit is in Reserve it must roll to enter the table from reserve. Once successful THEN it can roll on the table to see HOW it arrives. Cult Ambush does not replace the Reserves roll. Likewise, the unit MUST infiltrate to roll on the table. It cannot roll on the table UNTIL it Infiltrates.
can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table, opposite,
They don't have to do it, they have a choice. The table is on the opposite page.
instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally.
Whatever result you roll replaces the normal methods for placing your models from whichever method of entering you were using. If you Infiltrated, the roll changes the 12" etc rule to whatever result you rolled. I.E. you can not choose to continue to infiltrate normally. Once you roll on the table you must accept the result, you have no ability to go back to normal deployment methods.
A synonymous wording for the rule would be...
"A unit with this special rule may choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table if they deploy via Infiltrate or arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves. Units that choose to roll on the table must arrive according to the result."
Don't quote the last 1/3rd of a sentence and expect it to carry any weight without the other 2/3rds to define what it's actually talking about.
The sentence with only the relevant information for deployment goes like this...
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table instead of deploying normally."
Nowhere in the cult ambush rules does it say a unit "deploying via ambush" cannot charge in the first turn. And yet, in the last sentence of #6 on the CA table...
"Unlike other units that infiltrate..."
This would be because Ambush is not separate from Infiltrate. The restriction of not being able to charge is a part of CA because CA is part of Infiltrate. If it was it's own thing it would need to clarify that units deploying via CA cannot charge on their first turn. It doesn't. Because you infiltrate FIRST, and then roll on the table. The restrictions applied to Infiltrate also apply to CA unless the roll contradicts and supersedes it.
Again your adding language where it doesn't exist. Your entire argument revolves around assumptions you have made.
The rule never states you infiltrate first, it says instead of. IE in place of. Infiltration is a prerequisite for cult ambush. CA replaces infiltration from then on if you choose to use that deployment.
You can claim CA and infiltration are one and the same all you want, but you haven't demonstrated within the rules that they are. In fact the rules are demonstrating the opposite.
Red Corsair wrote: Again your adding language where it doesn't exist. Your entire argument revolves around assumptions you have made.
The rule never states you infiltrate first, it says instead of. IE in place of. Infiltration is a prerequisite for cult ambush. CA replaces infiltration from then on if you choose to use that deployment.
You can claim CA and infiltration are one and the same all you want, but you haven't demonstrated within the rules that they are. In fact the rules are demonstrating the opposite.
What are you talking about?
The rule says units that infiltrate. Not units that have the Infiltrate special rule. That is language that says you must infiltrate first.
Show me where in the CA rule it says that you cannot charge in the assault phase following deployment or entering the table from reserves. Show me. Because that is adding language that does not exist, UNLESS, like I have been saying, CA is in addition to the other methods of entering the board. In which case, THOSE methods have that restriction.
Because it is still reserves. Moving on from reserves (deploying) doesnt alter that you turned up from reserves. So you would still be restricted from charging at that point.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Because it is still reserves. Moving on from reserves (deploying) doesnt alter that you turned up from reserves. So you would still be restricted from charging at that point.
You do not deploy from Reserves. You just Deploy. Units do not begin the game in Reserves or Deep Strike Reserves unless you specifically place them there. A unit that deploys via Infiltrate never once enters Reserves. A unit that Infiltrates is not allowed to charge in the subsequent assault phase. Cult Ambush never once gives anyone that restriction.
So either a) You guys are correct and the extra wording on result 6 on the CA table is nonsense because nothing restricts your unit from assaulting after deployment anyway or b) I am right, and a unit that deploys via Infiltrate is still infiltrating even when they roll on the CA table which comes with all the restrictions Infiltrate does (unless the result on the table supersedes it).
Alright, I have deployed my units onto the battlefield and I have units from Subterranean Uprising Formation to use because all of those units MUST Infiltrate during deployment AND used CA.
"All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule."
According to the Infiltrate special rule, "Units... with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed...etc. Infiltrator can be set up anywhere on the table that is...etc. A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn." BRB p.167
Cult Ambush special rule which give me option (in which I must use) to roll on a table instead of deploying normally.
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally."
One unit roll a . So I placed them next to some poor IG squad 3" away.
"Set up the ambushing unit anywhere on the table that is more than 3" from any enemy unit. Unlike other units that Infiltrate or arrive from Reserves, the ambushing unit can charge in their first turn or on the turn they arrive from Reserves."
However on my 1st turn, I cannot move my unit any further.
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deployed or arrive on the battlefield."
Spoiler:
"A unit cannot charge, or any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrive from ReservesBRB p.136
But wait! There is a Servo-skull next to those squads.
"Enemy infiltrators cannot set up within 12" of a Servo-skull and enemy scouts can't use their pre-game move to approach within 12" of a Servo-skull." 6th-ed-Codex-Inquisition 2013
It is a good thing thing that my unit are ambushing those IG squad instead.
That my take of understanding the CA, units become ambushing units instead of infiltrators. Which I think come under the Basic vs Advanced rules in BRB pg13 where the printed codex takes precedences.
Well said, and I agree completely. Cult Ambush is it's own rule, after all a unit of genestealers has both infiltrate and cult ambush and can use either. It's pretty basic understanding to see they are two different rules and therefore servo skulls wouldn't work.
Sibuna wrote: Alright, I have deployed my units onto the battlefield and I have units from Subterranean Uprising Formation to use because all of those units MUST Infiltrate during deployment AND used CA.
"All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule."
According to the Infiltrate special rule, "Units... with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed...etc. Infiltrator can be set up anywhere on the table that is...etc. A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn." BRB p.167
Cult Ambush special rule which give me option (in which I must use) to roll on a table instead of deploying normally.
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally."
One unit roll a . So I placed them next to some poor IG squad 3" away.
"Set up the ambushing unit anywhere on the table that is more than 3" from any enemy unit. Unlike other units that Infiltrate or arrive from Reserves, the ambushing unit can charge in their first turn or on the turn they arrive from Reserves."
However on my 1st turn, I cannot move my unit any further.
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deployed or arrive on the battlefield."
Yes, they can move during their first turn. Unit that infiltrate are deployed during Deployment. Deployment is not the First Turn, it comes before any turns happen. Therefore, it is not the same turn that they arrived on the battlefield and they can move just fine.
Sibuna wrote: But wait! There is a Servo-skull next to those squads.
"Enemy infiltrators cannot set up within 12" of a Servo-skull and enemy scouts can't use their pre-game move to approach within 12" of a Servo-skull." 6th-ed-Codex-Inquisition 2013
It is a good thing thing that my unit are ambushing those IG squad instead.
That my take of understanding the CA, units become ambushing units instead of infiltrators. Which I think come under the Basic vs Advanced rules in BRB pg13 where the printed codex takes precedences.
Well, you'll just have to be more than 12" away from the servo-skull.
The rule says units that infiltrate. Not units that have the Infiltrate special rule. That is language that says you must infiltrate first.
Show me where in the CA rule it says that you cannot charge in the assault phase following deployment or entering the table from reserves. Show me. Because that is adding language that does not exist, UNLESS, like I have been saying, CA is in addition to the other methods of entering the board. In which case, THOSE methods have that restriction.
The rules for Infiltrate basically state that the unit must Infiltrate if they have the Infiltrate rule. It is not stated as an optional endeavor. The only way out of it is by putting the unit in Reserves.
Red Corsair wrote: Incorrect, you can set them up, up to 3 inches away according to the table.
But at least 12" away according to Servo Skulls. Which does create a quagmire when trying to solve it using advanced > general, since both are advanced. It's not automatically codex > rulebook (of course, here we're talking about codex vs codex). Something to discuss with opponents before the game.
Sibuna wrote: Alright, I have deployed my units onto the battlefield and I have units from Subterranean Uprising Formation to use because all of those units MUST Infiltrate during deployment AND used CA.
"All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule."
According to the Infiltrate special rule, "Units... with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed...etc. Infiltrator can be set up anywhere on the table that is...etc. A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn." BRB p.167
Cult Ambush special rule which give me option (in which I must use) to roll on a table instead of deploying normally.
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally."
One unit roll a . So I placed them next to some poor IG squad 3" away.
"Set up the ambushing unit anywhere on the table that is more than 3" from any enemy unit. Unlike other units that Infiltrate or arrive from Reserves, the ambushing unit can charge in their first turn or on the turn they arrive from Reserves."
However on my 1st turn, I cannot move my unit any further.
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deployed or arrive on the battlefield."
Yes, they can move during their first turn. Unit that infiltrate are deployed during Deployment. Deployment is not the First Turn, it comes before any turns happen. Therefore, it is not the same turn that they arrived on the battlefield and they can move just fine.
According to preparing for battle BRB p128, it refer deployment as a step in the sequence and deployment described itself as deploying. Reserve describe itself as arriving and deploying on the bottom of BRB p.135. Infiltrate doesn't mention deployment as a turn either, just when you can deploy it. It is pretty much up to interpretation now what "arrive on the battlefield" means. I cannot find it what it means.
Red Corsair wrote: Incorrect, you can set them up, up to 3 inches away according to the table.
But at least 12" away according to Servo Skulls. Which does create a quagmire when trying to solve it using advanced > general, since both are advanced. It's not automatically codex > rulebook (of course, here we're talking about codex vs codex). Something to discuss with opponents before the game.
Just to throw it out there, servo-skull rule was plubish in 2013(or the rule I was able to find) while the 7th ed brb was publish 2014. Now GSC is 2016. But let me put a question, during turn 2, I rolled for reserve and roll for cult ambush to place a unit next servo-skull. Does it prevent me from deploying within 12" of it like it does pre-game to infiltrate?
Red Corsair wrote: Incorrect, you can set them up, up to 3 inches away according to the table.
But at least 12" away according to Servo Skulls. Which does create a quagmire when trying to solve it using advanced > general, since both are advanced. It's not automatically codex > rulebook (of course, here we're talking about codex vs codex). Something to discuss with opponents before the game.
Incorrect, servo skulls specifically work on infiltration and scout moves. Cult Ambush IS a specific rule stating you may do it instead of normal deployment. Infiltration is in fact a normal form of deployment laid out in the Warhammer 40,000 The Rules on page 167.
Show me in the rules specifically where servo skulls mentions cult ambush.
I'll take it further. Units with infiltrate and cult ambush are allowed four options. Deployment by infiltration, by cult ambush, by reserves, or none of the above. Since infiltration is an option other then cult ambush this demonstrates the two rules are there own. Cult ambush simply requires infiltration as a prerequisite to unlock CA. CA states that it is an option instead of normal deployment. In order for Servo skulls to work it would need to adress CA specifically, something it most certainly does not do.
Sibuna wrote: Alright, I have deployed my units onto the battlefield and I have units from Subterranean Uprising Formation to use because all of those units MUST Infiltrate during deployment AND used CA.
"All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule."
According to the Infiltrate special rule, "Units... with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed...etc. Infiltrator can be set up anywhere on the table that is...etc. A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn." BRB p.167
Cult Ambush special rule which give me option (in which I must use) to roll on a table instead of deploying normally.
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally."
One unit roll a . So I placed them next to some poor IG squad 3" away.
"Set up the ambushing unit anywhere on the table that is more than 3" from any enemy unit. Unlike other units that Infiltrate or arrive from Reserves, the ambushing unit can charge in their first turn or on the turn they arrive from Reserves."
However on my 1st turn, I cannot move my unit any further.
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deployed or arrive on the battlefield."
Yes, they can move during their first turn. Unit that infiltrate are deployed during Deployment. Deployment is not the First Turn, it comes before any turns happen. Therefore, it is not the same turn that they arrived on the battlefield and they can move just fine.
According to preparing for battle BRB p128, it refer deployment as a step in the sequence and deployment described itself as deploying. Reserve describe itself as arriving and deploying on the bottom of BRB p.135. Infiltrate doesn't mention deployment as a turn either, just when you can deploy it. It is pretty much up to interpretation now what "arrive on the battlefield" means. I cannot find it what it means.
On page 132 the Standard Deployment method has each side setting up their armies (one side then the other side). After their armies have been deployed, you roll to see who goes first. Infiltrate states that they are deployed last, after all other units. Even though they are last, it would still be during deployment, before you have rolled to see who gets the first turn. That means it's still before the first turn, and they can move normally in the first turn.
Red Corsair wrote: Incorrect, you can set them up, up to 3 inches away according to the table.
But at least 12" away according to Servo Skulls. Which does create a quagmire when trying to solve it using advanced > general, since both are advanced. It's not automatically codex > rulebook (of course, here we're talking about codex vs codex). Something to discuss with opponents before the game.
Incorrect, servo skulls specifically work on infiltration and scout moves. Cult Ambush IS a specific rule stating you may do it instead of normal deployment. Infiltration is in fact a normal form of deployment laid out in the Warhammer 40,000 The Rules on page 167.
Show me in the rules specifically where servo skulls mentions cult ambush.
I'll take it further. Units with infiltrate and cult ambush are allowed four options. Deployment by infiltration, by cult ambush, by reserves, or none of the above. Since infiltration is an option other then cult ambush this demonstrates the two rules are there own. Cult ambush simply requires infiltration as a prerequisite to unlock CA. CA states that it is an option instead of normal deployment. In order for Servo skulls to work it would need to adress CA specifically, something it most certainly does not do.
Okay, since Servo Skulls mention specifically infiltration and scout moves, but not CA, by RAW they could be within 3". It would have been nice for you to present that in your previous post instead of merely saying "incorrect" then. Now I see the reasoning behind it. Thanks for elaborating! (That said, I would not be surprised to see a draft FAQ come and change servoskulls so that they include CA also. Until then, though, they should be able to move 3")
miniwargaming wrote: Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.
The rule never has any line that says "instead of infiltrating".
"....instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally." It actually does in the first sentence. Infiltration is a form of deployment, see the rulebook pg 167.
So yes, Cult Ambush is performed as a replacement to infiltration per deployment.
I don't know how 40K works. I have played 5 games, 5 different ways because that is how my opponents played it. So what I am going to say, is asking a question, not saying how something works.
So if we are going to deploy or put minis on the table and we want to use Cult Ambush, we have to Infiltrate them or put them in reserves or just place them on the table, but we can't do that now because minis were already deployed or put on the table by now correct? So that leaves us two options, Infiltrate them or put them in reserves. So if we want to put them on turn one, they can only be done through Infiltrate. So because we waited till all other minis were put on the table, we can either infiltrate them now correct? So we either infiltrate them or use the Cult Ambush table. I would say since we are using the Cult Ambush table, it's still an infiltrate move because it's happening when infiltrate allows minis to be put on the table now.
What I don't get is how does Cult Ambush replaces infiltrate now? Where does it say it replaces infiltrate. If its not an infiltrate move, then we can't place them on the table because 1) all minis were put on the table, so if it's not an infiltrate move, then they have to be put in reserve. So where does it say it replaces infiltrate but can still be done in an infiltrate move? Only wording that I see is put in reservers or ongoing reserves. So it is infiltrating on turn one.
*edit* Just reread the rule again on the iPad interactive version and it says "Units with this special rule that infiltrate or arrive from reserves or ongoing reserves can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush Table". It says right in the beginning Units THAT Infiltrate . So on turn one it is infiltrating. I can't see no way around this. It is saying THAT. So it's saying the unit is infiltrating. It doesn't say units that have the rule but not using it, but a unit THAT is doing the action which is infiltrating. So on turn one, it's a modified infiltrating move like Lance845 is saying.
Red Corsair wrote:Well said, and I agree completely. Cult Ambush is it's own rule, after all a unit of genestealers has both infiltrate and cult ambush and can use either. It's pretty basic understanding to see they are two different rules and therefore servo skulls wouldn't work.
miniwargaming wrote: I wonder if when they say "deploy" they mean the 3+ results on the Cult Ambush table that say you "set up" your models.
What is meant by 3+ here? I don't get it. Getting back into 40K so I really don't know all the terminology. I thought it meant a save at first.
Result#
1 enter your edge
2 out flank
3+ special results on cult ambush chart.
Thank you very much.
**edit**
Here is a question. In Warmahordes there is a rule that says if something Can't do something it overrides Something can do something. Or the other way around. Is there a rule like this in 40K?
The Infiltrate special rule refers to units with Infiltrate as "Infiltrators". Servo Skulls prevent "Infiltrators" from setting up nearby. Units with Infiltrate that use Cult Ambush are still "Infiltrators" as far as I can tell.
Sibuna wrote: Alright, I have deployed my units onto the battlefield and I have units from Subterranean Uprising Formation to use because all of those units MUST Infiltrate during deployment AND used CA.
"All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule."
According to the Infiltrate special rule, "Units... with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed...etc. Infiltrator can be set up anywhere on the table that is...etc. A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn." BRB p.167
Cult Ambush special rule which give me option (in which I must use) to roll on a table instead of deploying normally.
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally."
One unit roll a . So I placed them next to some poor IG squad 3" away.
"Set up the ambushing unit anywhere on the table that is more than 3" from any enemy unit. Unlike other units that Infiltrate or arrive from Reserves, the ambushing unit can charge in their first turn or on the turn they arrive from Reserves."
However on my 1st turn, I cannot move my unit any further.
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deployed or arrive on the battlefield."
Yes, they can move during their first turn. Unit that infiltrate are deployed during Deployment. Deployment is not the First Turn, it comes before any turns happen. Therefore, it is not the same turn that they arrived on the battlefield and they can move just fine.
According to preparing for battle BRB p128, it refer deployment as a step in the sequence and deployment described itself as deploying. Reserve describe itself as arriving and deploying on the bottom of BRB p.135. Infiltrate doesn't mention deployment as a turn either, just when you can deploy it. It is pretty much up to interpretation now what "arrive on the battlefield" means. I cannot find it what it means.
On page 132 the Standard Deployment method has each side setting up their armies (one side then the other side). After their armies have been deployed, you roll to see who goes first. Infiltrate states that they are deployed last, after all other units. Even though they are last, it would still be during deployment, before you have rolled to see who gets the first turn. That means it's still before the first turn, and they can move normally in the first turn.
Red Corsair wrote: Incorrect, you can set them up, up to 3 inches away according to the table.
But at least 12" away according to Servo Skulls. Which does create a quagmire when trying to solve it using advanced > general, since both are advanced. It's not automatically codex > rulebook (of course, here we're talking about codex vs codex). Something to discuss with opponents before the game.
Incorrect, servo skulls specifically work on infiltration and scout moves. Cult Ambush IS a specific rule stating you may do it instead of normal deployment. Infiltration is in fact a normal form of deployment laid out in the Warhammer 40,000 The Rules on page 167.
Show me in the rules specifically where servo skulls mentions cult ambush.
I'll take it further. Units with infiltrate and cult ambush are allowed four options. Deployment by infiltration, by cult ambush, by reserves, or none of the above. Since infiltration is an option other then cult ambush this demonstrates the two rules are there own. Cult ambush simply requires infiltration as a prerequisite to unlock CA. CA states that it is an option instead of normal deployment. In order for Servo skulls to work it would need to adress CA specifically, something it most certainly does not do.
Okay, since Servo Skulls mention specifically infiltration and scout moves, but not CA, by RAW they could be within 3". It would have been nice for you to present that in your previous post instead of merely saying "incorrect" then. Now I see the reasoning behind it. Thanks for elaborating! (That said, I would not be surprised to see a draft FAQ come and change servoskulls so that they include CA also. Until then, though, they should be able to move 3")
Sorry if I seemed blunt. I tend to keep my responses very short in this thread. I wasn't trying to be harsh.
Red Corsait - no problem. I'm just happy to see that result, though Davor has a point on Infiltrate. It says when you Infiltrate or come in from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves you can choose to roll on the table instead of deploying or coming on normally. It doesn't say that you're not infiltrating or coming in from Reserves, just that you're rolling on a different table to see how you deploy or come in from Reserves. Since they don't say "instead of infiltrating" and you still count as infiltrating, the Servo Skull would still be able to keep you 12" away.
Davor - good point there on the Infiltrate. And, spoiler tag's one way to handle it; I usually just go truncate the quote down to the relevant portions myself (and usually have to end up editing a time or two because I cut a bracket that should be there or left an end quote command that shouldn't )
But are they infiltrating on turn one? If someone can check the wording on infiltrate - does it refer to the models as "infiltrators" in an explicit mention of the first turn, or just deployment? (I don't have my book with me at work). Just in case that muddies it up again
BossJakadakk wrote: But are they infiltrating on turn one? If someone can check the wording on infiltrate - does it refer to the models as "infiltrators" in an explicit mention of the first turn, or just deployment? (I don't have my book with me at work). Just in case that muddies it up again
No, they aren't infiltrating on turn one. The one mention of first turn is "A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn", making it clear that Infiltrate takes place during deployment. this is made even more clear when they talk about having the combination of infiltrate and scout, saying that after you have infiltrated, you are allowed to redeploy afterwards using Scout. Scout makes clear that Scout redeployment happens before the first player's first turn.
I've always interpreted "Infiltrators" as "Units who are Infiltrating", not just any unit that has the rule. Under that interpretation, I would say Servo Skulls wouldn't affect Cult Ambush since they are not actively Infiltrating, they are deploying via Ambush.
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. If both side have Infiltrators, the player roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, then alternate deploying these units. Infiltrator can be set up anywhere on the table that is 12" from any enemy units.... A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn." BRB p.167
Unit who have the Infiltrate rule can deployed last, they have an option to roll on Cult Ambush(if they have the rule) table on how they want to setup. But they're not setting up as infiltrator but as ambushing units.
Cult Ambush
Spoiler:
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally. unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as during the movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield. Units cannot use the Cult Ambush special rule whilst they are embarked inside a vehicle"
Scout
Spoiler:
After both side have deployed (including Infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, a unit containing at least model with this special rule can choose to redeployed.
Deploying unit that Infiltrate and redeployed scout are consider normal in the basic rule, Cult Ambush is a advances rule which is abnormal.
Result 6 on Cult Ambush table: They Came From Below
Spoiler:
"Set up the ambushing unit anywhere on the table that is more than 3" from any enemy unit. Unlike other units that Infiltrate or arrive from Reserves, the ambushing unit can charge in their first turn or on the turn they arrive from Reserves."
Servo-Skull
Spoiler:
"Enemy infiltrators cannot set up within 12" of a Servo-skull and enemy scouts can't use their pre-game move to approach within 12" of a Servo-skull." 6th-ed-Codex-Inquisition 2013
Units using the Cult Ambush are set up as ambushing units, not as infiltrators
Cult Ambush "Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally. unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as during the movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield. Units cannot use the Cult Ambush special rule whilst they are embarked inside a vehicle"
So are you saying "deploying" in your bolded and underlined statement is taking the place of infiltrate since that is a type of deployment move?
Servo skulls were written long before cult ambush existed.
Cult ambush only happens if the model could infiltrate/come in from reserves- and happens in place of normally doing those.
Most of the results for cult ambush.
Given the result of '6' for cult ambush specifies:
"unlike other units that arrive from infiltrate or arrive from reserves, the ambushing unit can charge in their first turn, or on the turn they arrive from reserves"
So either cult ambush is arriving from infiltrate/reserves, or all the results allow you to assault. Given the answer from 6, the RAW indicates cult ambush is still a way of arriving from reserves or infiltrating.
Some people may choose to latch onto the word ambush and claim its something other than infiltrating or reserves, but the result of 6 clearly shows that the other results are counting as infiltrating/reserves but are modified by the ambush rule- otherwise if they were not they could assault too.
So there is a much stronger RAW case that server skulls affect ambush than not.
Some people may choose to latch onto the word ambush and claim its something other than infiltrating or reserves, but the result of 6 clearly shows that the other results are counting as infiltrating/reserves but are modified by the ambush rule- otherwise if they were not they could assault too.
So there is a much stronger RAW case that server skulls affect ambush than not.
Good point where does Ambush say it can place units during the infiltrating phase? If I am reading other peoples replies, I am almost thinking if we go by their way we don't even place units in the infiltrating phase but during the movement phase almost like doing a deep strike. So that would mean Ambushes are done after infiltrators and if your opponent has infiltrating units, they are deployed first before ambushes are done.
Oh why, GW why. You had the PERFECT chance to write Clear, Concise rules and you are still the same old GW. Smoke and mirrors, GW, smoke and mirrors. Such a shame, I was having high hopes you have changed.
Some people may choose to latch onto the word ambush and claim its something other than infiltrating or reserves, but the result of 6 clearly shows that the other results are counting as infiltrating/reserves but are modified by the ambush rule- otherwise if they were not they could assault too.
So there is a much stronger RAW case that server skulls affect ambush than not.
Good point where does Ambush say it can place units during the infiltrating phase? If I am reading other peoples replies, I am almost thinking if we go by their way we don't even place units in the infiltrating phase but during the movement phase almost like doing a deep strike. So that would mean Ambushes are done after infiltrators and if your opponent has infiltrating units, they are deployed first before ambushes are done.
Oh why, GW why. You had the PERFECT chance to write Clear, Concise rules and you are still the same old GW. Smoke and mirrors, GW, smoke and mirrors. Such a shame, I was having high hopes you have changed.
If you place units during the movement phase, how would you handle ones that have Infiltrate AND Scout? Going by what you're saying, they wouldn't be able to use the Scout move since that's done before first turn, and there isn't a movement phase during depolyment. If you go by the rules, Cult Ambush for units infiltrating would be done at the time they would infiltrate, only you roll on the CA table instead. Units coming in from Reserves would get to roll on the CA table on whatever turn they managed to make their Reserves roll and show up.
Davor wrote: Good point where does Ambush say it can place units during the infiltrating phase? If I am reading other peoples replies, I am almost thinking if we go by their way we don't even place units in the infiltrating phase but during the movement phase almost like doing a deep strike. So that would mean Ambushes are done after infiltrators and if your opponent has infiltrating units, they are deployed first before ambushes are done.
Right here: "Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally.
To infiltrate, you must be deploying using the Infiltrate Special Rule. "Deploying" is placing a unit on the table, as can be seen by its use in Deep Strike and the many Outflanking rules.
Davor wrote: Oh why, GW why. You had the PERFECT chance to write Clear, Concise rules and you are still the same old GW. Smoke and mirrors, GW, smoke and mirrors. Such a shame, I was having high hopes you have changed.
They aren't game writers. They admit it themselves. They do not care about their game. They care about their story and their Intellectual property. Never mind that one of the reasons FOR all of that is the game.
Right here: "Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally.
To infiltrate, you must be deploying using the Infiltrate Special Rule. "Deploying" is placing a unit on the table, as can be seen by its use in Deep Strike and the many Outflanking rules.
I see, wish someone pointed that out sooner. This make a little more sense, Thank you Charistoph. Cult Ambushing Units are in fact infiltrating, We do roll off who infiltrate 1st and such, and they do not charge on the 1st turn unless say otherwise. I was under the impression that you just need Infiltrate Special rule just to deployed last and since you used that rule to do that, you also don't assault on the 1st turn. Like Charistoph pointed out, units with Cult Ambush Deploy using Cult Ambush table.
The gray area I can see is the Set up i.e. deploying unit on the table since Cult Ambush refer to its unit as "ambushing units" and not as "infiltrators" when setting up.
I am however still in favor of the RAW, just because basic vs advances on BRB p.13
We also a GWFAQ draft for Ghost Quintus Broodkin for Ambush the Unhallowed saying that Servo-Skull do not negate that special rule even though that they are using the infiltrate special rule.
Sibuna wrote: The gray area I can see is the Set up i.e. deploying unit on the table since Cult Ambush refer to its unit as "ambushing units" and not as "infiltrators" when setting up.
The term "infiltrators" is used in the Infiltrate rule in such a way that it can only mean "a unit possessing the Infiltrate rule".
Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves.
Units that are being put in Reserves are not "infiltrating". Just like a "painter" doesn't stop being one when his brushes are put away, "infiltrators" do not stop being infiltrators when they aren't being sneaky during deployment.
This is further reinforced by the Draft FAQ (for whatever mileage that is worth).
Cult ambush is not infiltrate. Even if we concede the point and agree that it is a form of infiltration, it still is not standard infiltration from WH40K the rules, but some other form of infiltration plus, meaning it is a specific rule and servo skulls doesn't apply because it only overides normal infiltration and scout.
Lets also tackle the argument made several times ITT that you first infiltrate, then cult ambush. That would STILL prove cult ambush the victor and only lead to two wasted deployment and here is why. Opponent sets up servo skulls, genestealer cult player infiltrates all his units outside the 12" denial zones. GSC player now rolls on the Cult Ambush table and redeploys each unit, now using that specific rule which overrides the servo skulls and can now deploy well inside the skulls previously denied area. You have now applied the order of operations correctly, and also wasted another 30 minutes of time deploying an additional time. That is what I meant earlier ITT when I said infiltration was only a prerequisite to the advanced rule, because it is pedantic to actually force your GSC opponent into infiltrating before he would redeploy using Cult Ambush.
Davor wrote: Good point where does Ambush say it can place units during the infiltrating phase? If I am reading other peoples replies, I am almost thinking if we go by their way we don't even place units in the infiltrating phase but during the movement phase almost like doing a deep strike. So that would mean Ambushes are done after infiltrators and if your opponent has infiltrating units, they are deployed first before ambushes are done.
Right here: "Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the cult ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally.
To infiltrate, you must be deploying using the Infiltrate Special Rule. "Deploying" is placing a unit on the table, as can be seen by its use in Deep Strike and the many Outflanking rules.
I know that, I am having an open mind and trying to see my opponents view of their opinion. In other words I am not saying he is wrong yet, but going with it for an answer. I am still in the opinion it's an infiltrate move just like you have said, but instead of trying to be the "your are wrong, I am correct" mentality most of the time on the internet, I am trying to see what other people view it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: Cult ambush is not infiltrate. Even if we concede the point and agree that it is a form of infiltration, it still is not standard infiltration from WH40K the rules, but some other form of infiltration plus, meaning it is a specific rule and servo skulls doesn't apply because it only overides normal infiltration and scout.
It is. So far you are saying it's not without giving facts. Please give the facts to back the statement up.
Lets also tackle the argument made several times ITT that you first infiltrate, then cult ambush. That would STILL prove cult ambush the victor and only lead to two wasted deployment and here is why. Opponent sets up servo skulls, genestealer cult player infiltrates all his units outside the 12" denial zones. GSC player now rolls on the Cult Ambush table and redeploys each unit, now using that specific rule which overrides the servo skulls and can now deploy well inside the skulls previously denied area. You have now applied the order of operations correctly, and also wasted another 30 minutes of time deploying an additional time. That is what I meant earlier ITT when I said infiltration was only a prerequisite to the advanced rule, because it is pedantic to actually force your GSC opponent into infiltrating before he would redeploy using Cult Ambush.
Let's not tackle the ITT arguments. Not everyone goes by them and we are talking GW rules, not house rules.
I have posted the facts repeatedly. I am not going to fall into a circular argument, hit filter thread or read the past three pages. The rule uses the crucial word instead. Besides you just quote chopped out the second point I made and suggested it somehow is not valid to the discussion at hand. Please explain how it is possible to have a rules discussion if you are not going to acknowledge the points brought up ITT? I don't think you understand how YMDC works.
Now kindly address the actual point I made in that paragraph. Cult Ambush exists as it's own separate rule, that isn't actually up for debate here. So yet again, I will repeat, according to the interpretation that infiltration is required first and thus subject to limitation via servo skulls, it's utterly moot since you would infiltrate outside 12" then Cult Ambush potentially closer based on the order of operations. Servo skulls lack the specificity to affect CA which triggers off infiltration, then replaces it by using the language INSTEAD.
Red Corsair wrote: I have posted the facts repeatedly. I am not going to fall into a circular argument, hit filter thread or read the past three pages. The rule uses the crucial word instead. Besides you just quote chopped out the second point I made and suggested it somehow is not valid to the discussion at hand. Please explain how it is possible to have a rules discussion if you are not going to acknowledge the points brought up ITT? I don't think you understand how YMDC works.
Now kindly address the actual point I made in that paragraph. Cult Ambush exists as it's own separate rule, that isn't actually up for debate here. So yet again, I will repeat, according to the interpretation that infiltration is required first and thus subject to limitation via servo skulls, it's utterly moot since you would infiltrate outside 12" then Cult Ambush potentially closer based on the order of operations. Servo skulls lack the specificity to affect CA which triggers off infiltration, then replaces it by using the language INSTEAD.
Actually there are parts up to debate. It says units that infiltrate or are in reserve can roll on the table instead of deploying or coming in from reserve normally. It can mean that it's just where they come on is changed, but they are still infiltrating (since it said units that are infiltrating). Using your logic, you would have to conclude that likewise, units coming in from reserves aren't coming in from reserves when they roll on the table. yet, they have been in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves and are clearly coming in from Reserves (or ongoing reserves), it's just that they're rolling on the table to determine where. If those are still coming in from Reserves, then why are the units that were stated by the CA rule to be infiltrating not being treated as infiltrating. Seems like a double standard.
What we should be doing is looking at the intention of the servo-skull rule.
It prevents Infiltrators from setting up within 12" of it. Infiltrators normally cannot set-up within 12" of enemy units. So a servo-skull is basically a marker that represents an enemy unit for purposes of Infiltration.
Cult Ambush changes the distance you need to be from an enemy unit. Therefore I would treat it as, you cannot set up within 6" of a servo-skull on a result of 3-5, or within 3" of a servo-skull on a result of 6.
This house-rule will be used in my store to avoid arguments.
CryonicCenobyte wrote: What we should be doing is looking at the intention of the servo-skull rule.
It prevents Infiltrators from setting up within 12" of it. Infiltrators normally cannot set-up within 12" of enemy units. So a servo-skull is basically a marker that represents an enemy unit for purposes of Infiltration.
Cult Ambush changes the distance you need to be from an enemy unit. Therefore I would treat it as, you cannot set up within 6" of a servo-skull on a result of 3-5, or within 3" of a servo-skull on a result of 6.
This house-rule will be used in my store to avoid arguments.
I like this as a very good middle ground and will go forward with this until we get a FAQ.
I honestly don't think Cult ambush is effected by survo skulls at all but considering the arguments on both sides I like what CryonicCenobyte proposes.
Red Corsair wrote: I have posted the facts repeatedly. I am not going to fall into a circular argument, hit filter thread or read the past three pages. The rule uses the crucial word instead. Besides you just quote chopped out the second point I made and suggested it somehow is not valid to the discussion at hand. Please explain how it is possible to have a rules discussion if you are not going to acknowledge the points brought up ITT? I don't think you understand how YMDC works.
Now kindly address the actual point I made in that paragraph. Cult Ambush exists as it's own separate rule, that isn't actually up for debate here. So yet again, I will repeat, according to the interpretation that infiltration is required first and thus subject to limitation via servo skulls, it's utterly moot since you would infiltrate outside 12" then Cult Ambush potentially closer based on the order of operations. Servo skulls lack the specificity to affect CA which triggers off infiltration, then replaces it by using the language INSTEAD.
Actually there are parts up to debate. It says units that infiltrate or are in reserve can roll on the table instead of deploying or coming in from reserve normally. It can mean that it's just where they come on is changed, but they are still infiltrating (since it said units that are infiltrating). Using your logic, you would have to conclude that likewise, units coming in from reserves aren't coming in from reserves when they roll on the table. yet, they have been in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves and are clearly coming in from Reserves (or ongoing reserves), it's just that they're rolling on the table to determine where. If those are still coming in from Reserves, then why are the units that were stated by the CA rule to be infiltrating not being treated as infiltrating. Seems like a double standard.
Thank you very well said. I wish I could write as well as you did here.
CryonicCenobyte wrote:What we should be doing is looking at the intention of the servo-skull rule.
It prevents Infiltrators from setting up within 12" of it. Infiltrators normally cannot set-up within 12" of enemy units. So a servo-skull is basically a marker that represents an enemy unit for purposes of Infiltration.
Cult Ambush changes the distance you need to be from an enemy unit. Therefore I would treat it as, you cannot set up within 6" of a servo-skull on a result of 3-5, or within 3" of a servo-skull on a result of 6.
This house-rule will be used in my store to avoid arguments.
Good point. Not sure if correct or not, but good point non the less. I like it.
CryonicCenobyte wrote: What we should be doing is looking at the intention of the servo-skull rule.
It prevents Infiltrators from setting up within 12" of it. Infiltrators normally cannot set-up within 12" of enemy units. So a servo-skull is basically a marker that represents an enemy unit for purposes of Infiltration.
Cult Ambush changes the distance you need to be from an enemy unit. Therefore I would treat it as, you cannot set up within 6" of a servo-skull on a result of 3-5, or within 3" of a servo-skull on a result of 6.
This house-rule will be used in my store to avoid arguments.
The problem is that Servo-Skulls may state the same standards as being used by Infiltrate, but it doesn't specifically state to use Infiltrate's standards. In other words, they aren't just acting as an enemy unit marker for the purposes of infiltration, they actually represent something more. If 8th Edition or an errata came out tomorrow and an Infiltrate's range from enemy models were reduced to 6", Servo-Skulls would still prevent to 12".
So, it still comes down to codex v codex. The base rules give no instruction on this without resorting to Sequencing (which does not actually apply). Draft FAQs state that they cancel each other out or give primacy to which ever codex the question lies under. As normal for GW writing, they are inconsistent and do little to properly resolve these considerations.
CryonicCenobyte wrote: What we should be doing is looking at the intention of the servo-skull rule.
It prevents Infiltrators from setting up within 12" of it. Infiltrators normally cannot set-up within 12" of enemy units. So a servo-skull is basically a marker that represents an enemy unit for purposes of Infiltration.
Cult Ambush changes the distance you need to be from an enemy unit. Therefore I would treat it as, you cannot set up within 6" of a servo-skull on a result of 3-5, or within 3" of a servo-skull on a result of 6.
This house-rule will be used in my store to avoid arguments.
The problem is that Servo-Skulls may state the same standards as being used by Infiltrate, but it doesn't specifically state to use Infiltrate's standards. In other words, they aren't just acting as an enemy unit marker for the purposes of infiltration, they actually represent something more. If 8th Edition or an errata came out tomorrow and an Infiltrate's range from enemy models were reduced to 6", Servo-Skulls would still prevent to 12".
By RAW, yes, but that would clearly be a mistake. Any reasonable person will always take RAI over RAW unless they don't understand the definition of the word "intended".
CryonicCenobyte wrote: What we should be doing is looking at the intention of the servo-skull rule.
It prevents Infiltrators from setting up within 12" of it. Infiltrators normally cannot set-up within 12" of enemy units. So a servo-skull is basically a marker that represents an enemy unit for purposes of Infiltration.
Cult Ambush changes the distance you need to be from an enemy unit. Therefore I would treat it as, you cannot set up within 6" of a servo-skull on a result of 3-5, or within 3" of a servo-skull on a result of 6.
This house-rule will be used in my store to avoid arguments.
The problem is that Servo-Skulls may state the same standards as being used by Infiltrate, but it doesn't specifically state to use Infiltrate's standards. In other words, they aren't just acting as an enemy unit marker for the purposes of infiltration, they actually represent something more. If 8th Edition or an errata came out tomorrow and an Infiltrate's range from enemy models were reduced to 6", Servo-Skulls would still prevent to 12".
By RAW, yes, but that would clearly be a mistake. Any reasonable person will always take RAI over RAW unless they don't understand the definition of the word "intended".
All we can fall back on is RAW, barring a finalization of the Draft FAQ. We can only analyze and assume intent. Assumptions are made differently by different people until something concrete occurs. At this point, I think we're going around in circles with this thread.
There were things that could be placed by rules that use modifications on infiltration before GSC, like callidus assassins. They were also limited to 12" not some modified other result.
So my gaming group have had a chat about how this works, it's not perfect but this is how we are going to play it locally until we find a better way or some clarification from GW or an appropriate third party.
The fluff is that infiltrators come on before deployment and get to a good position.
The fluff is that ambushers were there waiting long before the battle.
The fluff is that scouts get to reposition before a battle.
The RaW are pretty clear, you first deploy using infiltrate, reserves, ongoing reserves and then choose to change deployment type to cult ambush (a separate rule).
We will deploy as per rules, when we get to infiltrators we will roll off and take it in turns until all units have infiltrated. Servo-scullz affect infiltrate. We do this because you can't place a unit within 12" of enemy models. You can force their deployment to certain areas. (We will stop once one player can't deploy anymore, if someone has decided that all the rest of the units will cult ambush. But if some units are actually infiltrating they will be deployed at this time.)
Next we chose to cult ambush (a separate rule) and do as these rules tell us to, we reposition these units on the board. Servo-scullz don't affect ambushing. If the armys are both using cult ambush, we will use the rules from infiltrating to decide, eg roll off and take it in turns. ( There is no rule for this, it is our house rule. This needs an FAQ. )
Next units can scout if they have it. Servo-scullz affect scout, so if a scout sentinel moves and its with scout rule it can't end it's move within 12" of a servo-scull. This may mean that it can't move in the scout phase as it is already with 12" due to ambush.
This fits fluff and RaW. As far as our group can agree. This is not definative but is what we will do for now.
For reserves and ongoing reserves we will do the same thing, place them using the first rule (the enemy has a chance to block deplayment and prevent them coming onto the board thus preventing them entering) then choose to cult ambush roll on the table, and perform the appropriate action. ( We can chose this even if models can't be placed as this is a separate rule, they have fulfilled their requirements under RAW. )
Once we have rolled on the cult ambush table, and the models can't be placed they are put into ongoing reserves as per rules for reserves. ( There are no rule for this, this is a house rule and needs an FAQ. )
If we can skip a deployment for a squad we will to speed things up, but if that deployment may be affected but some rule in the sequence it can't be skipped. Both players must agree at the time to skip a squad deployment .
This probably won't help anyone and many people will disagree, but it is what we are doing for the forseeble future.
Red Corsair wrote: I have posted the facts repeatedly. I am not going to fall into a circular argument, hit filter thread or read the past three pages. The rule uses the crucial word instead. Besides you just quote chopped out the second point I made and suggested it somehow is not valid to the discussion at hand. Please explain how it is possible to have a rules discussion if you are not going to acknowledge the points brought up ITT? I don't think you understand how YMDC works.
Now kindly address the actual point I made in that paragraph. Cult Ambush exists as it's own separate rule, that isn't actually up for debate here. So yet again, I will repeat, according to the interpretation that infiltration is required first and thus subject to limitation via servo skulls, it's utterly moot since you would infiltrate outside 12" then Cult Ambush potentially closer based on the order of operations. Servo skulls lack the specificity to affect CA which triggers off infiltration, then replaces it by using the language INSTEAD.
Actually there are parts up to debate. It says units that infiltrate or are in reserve can roll on the table instead of deploying or coming in from reserve normally. It can mean that it's just where they come on is changed, but they are still infiltrating (since it said units that are infiltrating). Using your logic, you would have to conclude that likewise, units coming in from reserves aren't coming in from reserves when they roll on the table. yet, they have been in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves and are clearly coming in from Reserves (or ongoing reserves), it's just that they're rolling on the table to determine where. If those are still coming in from Reserves, then why are the units that were stated by the CA rule to be infiltrating not being treated as infiltrating. Seems like a double standard.
It really isn't. Your claim doesn't change anything. You infiltrate, then replace that deployment with cult ambush or you hold them in reserve, I roll to see if they are available to enter the game per normal but can choose instead to Cult Ambush. There is absolutely no double standard. In either case your given permission to replace the deployment with a result generated from the CA table.
What your failing to reconcile is that entering from reserve or ongoing reserves just like infiltration is a form of deployment. CA gives us permission to deploy alternatively rather then normally.
Red Corsair wrote: I have posted the facts repeatedly. I am not going to fall into a circular argument, hit filter thread or read the past three pages. The rule uses the crucial word instead. Besides you just quote chopped out the second point I made and suggested it somehow is not valid to the discussion at hand. Please explain how it is possible to have a rules discussion if you are not going to acknowledge the points brought up ITT? I don't think you understand how YMDC works.
Now kindly address the actual point I made in that paragraph. Cult Ambush exists as it's own separate rule, that isn't actually up for debate here. So yet again, I will repeat, according to the interpretation that infiltration is required first and thus subject to limitation via servo skulls, it's utterly moot since you would infiltrate outside 12" then Cult Ambush potentially closer based on the order of operations. Servo skulls lack the specificity to affect CA which triggers off infiltration, then replaces it by using the language INSTEAD.
Actually there are parts up to debate. It says units that infiltrate or are in reserve can roll on the table instead of deploying or coming in from reserve normally. It can mean that it's just where they come on is changed, but they are still infiltrating (since it said units that are infiltrating). Using your logic, you would have to conclude that likewise, units coming in from reserves aren't coming in from reserves when they roll on the table. yet, they have been in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves and are clearly coming in from Reserves (or ongoing reserves), it's just that they're rolling on the table to determine where. If those are still coming in from Reserves, then why are the units that were stated by the CA rule to be infiltrating not being treated as infiltrating. Seems like a double standard.
It really isn't. Your claim doesn't change anything. You infiltrate, then replace that deployment with cult ambush or you hold them in reserve, I roll to see if they are available to enter the game per normal but can choose instead to Cult Ambush. There is absolutely no double standard. In either case your given permission to replace the deployment with a result generated from the CA table.
What your failing to reconcile is that entering from reserve or ongoing reserves just like infiltration is a form of deployment. CA gives us permission to deploy alternatively rather then normally.
I think you should re-read the cult ambush rules.
It clearly states you roll on the ambush table instead of arriving from reserves or deploying normally. If you deploy an unit by infiltrating, it cannot cult ambush the same turn as it is already deployed and cult ambush tells you to do it instead of deploying by infiltrate or reserves. If you have to do something instead you cannot do both things, they are not the same.
Further it states the cult ambush result is used instead of deploying or arriving by reserves normally. Ie they are a modification to those rules.
You pick to put units in reserve, or set aside as infiltrators.
For each unit you opt to deploy it as normal reserves, normal infiltrate, or as cult ambush when its time for the unit to deploy from deepstrike or during the infiltrate step.
it further goes onto state that cult ambushings units move onto the table as specified for other reserves, unless they table specifies something else.
Cult ambush is just a modification to infiltrate/reserves and count as using those with the modifications listed for cult ambush.
the result of '6'on the cult ambush d6 roll even again clarifies that cult ambush is reserves and infiltrate, you just get some modified rules because you are ambushing. It is not a separate totally different thing by the RAW or RAI.
"unlike other units that arrive from reserves or infiltrating, the ambushing unit can charge the turn it arrives or the first turn" - cult ambush is deploying/arriving from reserves or infiltration.
RAW and RAI servo skulls prevent cult ambush unless a faq specifies otherwise, just as it limits other infiltrators who can setup within 12" (callidus)
Red Corsair wrote: I have posted the facts repeatedly. I am not going to fall into a circular argument, hit filter thread or read the past three pages. The rule uses the crucial word instead. Besides you just quote chopped out the second point I made and suggested it somehow is not valid to the discussion at hand. Please explain how it is possible to have a rules discussion if you are not going to acknowledge the points brought up ITT? I don't think you understand how YMDC works.
Now kindly address the actual point I made in that paragraph. Cult Ambush exists as it's own separate rule, that isn't actually up for debate here. So yet again, I will repeat, according to the interpretation that infiltration is required first and thus subject to limitation via servo skulls, it's utterly moot since you would infiltrate outside 12" then Cult Ambush potentially closer based on the order of operations. Servo skulls lack the specificity to affect CA which triggers off infiltration, then replaces it by using the language INSTEAD.
Actually there are parts up to debate. It says units that infiltrate or are in reserve can roll on the table instead of deploying or coming in from reserve normally. It can mean that it's just where they come on is changed, but they are still infiltrating (since it said units that are infiltrating). Using your logic, you would have to conclude that likewise, units coming in from reserves aren't coming in from reserves when they roll on the table. yet, they have been in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves and are clearly coming in from Reserves (or ongoing reserves), it's just that they're rolling on the table to determine where. If those are still coming in from Reserves, then why are the units that were stated by the CA rule to be infiltrating not being treated as infiltrating. Seems like a double standard.
It really isn't. Your claim doesn't change anything. You infiltrate, then replace that deployment with cult ambush or you hold them in reserve, I roll to see if they are available to enter the game per normal but can choose instead to Cult Ambush. There is absolutely no double standard. In either case your given permission to replace the deployment with a result generated from the CA table.
What your failing to reconcile is that entering from reserve or ongoing reserves just like infiltration is a form of deployment. CA gives us permission to deploy alternatively rather then normally.
So, there are units in Reserves. It's time for them to come on to the table (you've rolled to determine that they may come out of Reserves). Your claim is that they're not coming out of Reserves because they're rolling on the Cult Ambush table instead of coming out of Reserves normally? Because, that's what you're saying if you're treating infiltrate the way you are. That is indeed a double standard, and is something that you have to reconcile. They still come out of Reserves even if you roll on the table, which shows that you are still with the original deployment method, only that the CA table alters where they are deployed on the table (with the possibility of some other benefits during that turn).
if you use the ruling cult ambush is infiltration then all cultists have shroud in the Cult Insurrection formation. If you look at Purestrain Genstealers they have both cult ambush and infiltration. They are obviously separate and different. cult ambush is not infiltration.
Splatacus wrote: if you use the ruling cult ambush is infiltration then all cultists have shroud in the Cult Insurrection formation. If you look at Purestrain Genstealers they have both cult ambush and infiltration. They are obviously separate and different. cult ambush is not infiltration.
No. Deploying via infiltration to use cult ambush in deployment is infiltrate. The rule Cult ambush can also be used by starting the game in reserves or when returning from ongoing reserves (your probably there from Return to Shadows). CA does not grant you infiltrate. But you do need infiltrate to deploy with CA.
Splatacus wrote: if you use the ruling cult ambush is infiltration then all cultists have shroud in the Cult Insurrection formation. If you look at Purestrain Genstealers they have both cult ambush and infiltration. They are obviously separate and different. cult ambush is not infiltration.
No. Deploying via infiltration to use cult ambush in deployment is infiltrate. The rule Cult ambush can also be used by starting the game in reserves or when returning from ongoing reserves (your probably there from Return to Shadows). CA does not grant you infiltrate. But you do need infiltrate to deploy with CA.
So acolyte hybrids can't cult ambush because they don't have infiltrate? but purestrain genestealers can because they have both.
If they don't have infiltrate from some source they can't deploy with cult ambush the first turn. You can deploy them normally and return to the shadows with them turn one then cult ambush from ongoing reserves, or you can lace them in reserves and when they arrive use cult ambush. If they do not have infiltrate you can't deploy them with cult ambush at the game start.
Which is one of the reasons the detachment and Formations that grant infiltrate is a big deal.
Splatacus wrote: if you use the ruling cult ambush is infiltration then all cultists have shroud in the Cult Insurrection formation. If you look at Purestrain Genstealers they have both cult ambush and infiltration. They are obviously separate and different. cult ambush is not infiltration.
No. Deploying via infiltration to use cult ambush in deployment is infiltrate. The rule Cult ambush can also be used by starting the game in reserves or when returning from ongoing reserves (your probably there from Return to Shadows). CA does not grant you infiltrate. But you do need infiltrate to deploy with CA.
So acolyte hybrids can't cult ambush because they don't have infiltrate? but purestrain genestealers can because they have both.
By default, on deployment, yes. If you take them in their decurion it gives everyone infiltrate so everyone can deploy with CA. But without Infiltrate you either deploy normally or start the game in reserves.
Lance845 wrote: We explain that you need infiltrate to deploy with CA but don't need it if you come in from reserves/ongoing reserves in the middle of the game.
You ask if servo skulls work against CA in the middle of the game.
Based on that answer you assume servo skulls will work against deploying via infiltrate to use CA at the beginning of the game?
Arriving from Reserves of any kind is deploying just as much as Infiltrating.
However, Servo-Skulls does not specifically state anything about "deploying", it refers to Infiltrator's being "set up" and Scouts using "their pre-game move". All of these terms are used as part of Deployment alone. Also, the Servo-Skulls addresses "infiltrators", not "units that are infiltrating". The term "infiltrators" is used when granting Outflank to these units (where you cannot actually infiltrate), and if you follow the Draft FAQ, is also used to identify as a possessor of the rule for ICs joining a unit even in Reserves.
That's part of what makes this so troublesome. Yes, CA would technically be affected if not for one troublesome fact, that both the CA and Servo-skull are codex-level rules, which the rulebook gives primacy to both at the same time. At which point, roll it off to see which was the more "successful" for this match.
The point is that infiltration and cult ambush are different abilities. just like infiltration and outflank are different. you have to have infiltrate to outflank and servo skulls don't effect that. So why would needing infiltrate to cult ambush allow servo skulls to block cult ambush.
Servo skulls don't stop cult ambush when coming from reserve later in the game. Why would they stop it at the start of the game.
Servo skulls specifically say what they can stop (infiltrate and scout move) if it was intended to stop anything that required infiltrate as a prerequisite it would be worded to include them or have a broader definition.
Splatacus wrote: The point is that infiltration and cult ambush are different abilities. just like infiltration and outflank are different. you have to have infiltrate to outflank and servo skulls don't effect that. So why would needing infiltrate to cult ambush allow servo skulls to block cult ambush.
Servo skulls don't stop cult ambush when coming from reserve later in the game. Why would they stop it at the start of the game.
Servo skulls specifically say what they can stop (infiltrate and scout move) if it was intended to stop anything that required infiltrate as a prerequisite it would be worded to include them or have a broader definition.
See what Charistoph said about Infiltrators (as opposed to units that infiltrate) As an elaboration on what he said,, you also have the infiltrate rule saying "If both sides have Infiltrators" (dealing with the players rolling off). This would cover any unit with infiltrate. According to Infiltrate rules, you would not be able to deploy intiltrators until after all non-infiltrator units have been deployed. These units would still be infiltrators when it comes time to deploy them, whether by standard infiltrate, by rolling on the Cult Ambush table, or even just by sticking them in their side's normal deployment zone as if they weren't trying to infiltrate. Since they're infiltrators no matter which method they're coming on, they would trigger the servo skull, so would be subject to the servo-skull rule.
Splatacus wrote: The point is that infiltration and cult ambush are different abilities. just like infiltration and outflank are different. you have to have infiltrate to outflank and servo skulls don't effect that. So why would needing infiltrate to cult ambush allow servo skulls to block cult ambush.
You are operating under a misconception and have provided an error. I will get to the misconception in a moment, but the error is that Outflank can be provided in one of three ways: the unit possesses the Special Rule Outflank, the unit possesses the Special Rule Scout, and/or the unit possesses the Special Rule Infiltrate. I can have a unit Outflank without having any infiltrators in my army.
Splatacus wrote: Servo skulls don't stop cult ambush when coming from reserve later in the game. Why would they stop it at the start of the game.
Servo skulls specifically say what they can stop (infiltrate and scout move) if it was intended to stop anything that required infiltrate as a prerequisite it would be worded to include them or have a broader definition.
Your misconception is that Servo Skulls stop "Infiltrate". This is not wholly accurate. They stop "infiltrators".
"Infiltrate" is used as noun for the Special Rule itself and as a verb. "Infiltrator" is a term used to identify a person who possesses the Infiltrate Special Rule, as identified in the special rule itself and the Draft FAQ, and is not limited to just a person who is infiltrating.
If there was not a No Man's Land between deployment zones, Servo Skulls placed on the zone border could prevent Infiltrators from deploying normally in their own deployment zone, even if they weren't waiting to deploy and deployed at the same time the units without Infiltrate are put on the board.
so you are saying that if you take around 3 inquisitors all with 3 skulls each that a genestealer cult army using the cult insurrection can't even set up on the board. So it takes 93 points of inquisition to table a cult army using the cult insurrection.
Splatacus wrote: so you are saying that if you take around 3 inquisitors all with 3 skulls each that a genestealer cult army using the cult insurrection can't even set up on the board. So it takes 93 points of inquisition to table a cult army using the cult insurrection.
I'm not saying this, the Servo Skulls rule is saying this, and only on one setup. And this only applies to the Deployment Phase, not anything after. Not to mention that the Skull sets up an approx 25" circle, 12" half-circle in the Deployment Zone, not a flat square, so room is possible.
Also, since I guess it needs to be stated again, the CA rule says "Units that infiltrate (verb)" in the very first sentence. The unit has to actually infiltrate in order to deploy and use the CA rules. Not that Infiltrators have any say in the matter. If your unit has infiltrate it doesn't matter where on the board you decide to put them, in your deployment zone or not, they are infiltrating. That means the Servo Skulls set a minimum distance of 12" regardless.
Lance845 wrote: Not that Infiltrators have any say in the matter. If your unit has infiltrate it doesn't matter where on the board you decide to put them, in your deployment zone or not, they are infiltrating. That means the Servo Skulls set a minimum distance of 12" regardless.
According to the rule in the rulebook, correct. According to the Draft FAQs, not so much. To Infiltrate is apparently a voluntary activity.
However, that doesn't matter since Servo-Skulls don't affect those who are infiltrating, but those units who have the Infiltrate Special Rule, as previously demonstrated by the use of "infiltrator" in the Infiltrate Special Rule.
If the unit has Infiltrate then you can deploy (turn 0) with CA.
Thanks, so if I get a 5 on the dice , can I fire at turn 0? And if I get 5 with genestealer (no ranged weapon), it say that the unit can run at mouvement phase.. turn 1?
And on the CA rule it say : " (...) and cannot move any futher during the Mouvement phase of the turn they deploy (...)"
So, if I deploy at turn "0", Can I move at turn "1"? because it's not the turn they deploy...
If the unit has Infiltrate then you can deploy (turn 0) with CA.
Thanks, so if I get a 5 on the dice , can I fire at turn 0? And if I get 5 with genestealer (no ranged weapon), it say that the unit can run at mouvement phase.. turn 1?
And on the CA rule it say : " (...) and cannot move any futher during the Mouvement phase of the turn they deploy (...)"
So, if I deploy at turn "0", Can I move at turn "1"? because it's not the turn they deploy...
For the result of 5 you would get to make a bonus shooting attack after placing the unit. which is not a run so no running. The result does not give a bonus shooting phase, it specifies a shooting attack.
On your turn 1 they would be able to move, as that is not the turn they were deployed or arrived (they were there before turn 1 if you deployed them using cult ambush during infiltration)
blaktoof wrote: For the result of 5 you would get to make a bonus shooting attack after placing the unit. which is not a run so no running. The result does not give a bonus shooting phase, it specifies a shooting attack.
On your turn 1 they would be able to move, as that is not the turn they were deployed or arrived (they were there before turn 1 if you deployed them using cult ambush during infiltration)
If they can move at turn one, why this is written : Unless otherwiss specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described of the Reserves and cannot move any futher during the Mouvement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield.
"The turn they deploy": there's no "turn 0" so if necessarily turn 1 no? Ans the Reseves arrive at a turn of a game, no the deployement phase.
blaktoof wrote: For the result of 5 you would get to make a bonus shooting attack after placing the unit. which is not a run so no running. The result does not give a bonus shooting phase, it specifies a shooting attack.
On your turn 1 they would be able to move, as that is not the turn they were deployed or arrived (they were there before turn 1 if you deployed them using cult ambush during infiltration)
If they can move at turn one, why this is written : Unless otherwiss specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described of the Reserves and cannot move any futher during the Mouvement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield.
"The turn they deploy": there's no "turn 0" so if necessarily turn 1 no? Ans the Reseves arrive at a turn of a game, no the deployement phase.
I'm just looking logic on this rule.
You are correct. There is no turn 0. They did not arrive in turn 1. They arrived during deployment before the game began. On turn 1 they would be able to move normally.
Wrong, you deploy at the start of turn 1 as far the Cult Ambush rules are concerned. Otherwise it causes far too many inconsistencies and question to crop up. It's very clearly intended that you cannot move in the first turn movement phase if you deployed with the CA table.
CryonicCenobyte wrote: Wrong, you deploy at the start of turn 1 as far the Cult Ambush rules are concerned. Otherwise it causes far too many inconsistencies and question to crop up. It's very clearly intended that you cannot move in the first turn movement phase if you deployed with the CA table.
Except that Infiltrate occurs before the game starts (and thus not in any turn) - and so if you CA whilst Infiltrating (regardless of whether this is affected by servo skulls or not) you do it before the game starts and can thus move in T1, shoot heavy weapons at full BS, etc.Maybe it was intended that you can't move first turn if you deployed with it (though I disagree), but that isn't what the rules say.
According to Codex: GSC, you deploy in turn one, since it says you cannot move in the turn you deployed, you clearly MUST deploy in a turn. Codex rules always trump main rulebook.
Stop being intentionally dense about this. The only people who take RAW over RAI are either rules-lawyering ****s trying to exploit the rules for cheap advantages, or morons who need to pick up a dictionary and read the definition of the word "intended".
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."
"of the turn they deploy"
"turn they deploy"
This wording would have no relevance if you followed the disgusting rules-lawyers b******t logic of "hurr deployment isn't a turn". The Codex says there's a turn in which models deploy, therefore deployment is now considered to be part of turn 1 as of the release of this book, or it is as far as this specific rule is concerned at the very least.
Anyone trying to convince you otherwise is attempting to cheat and you should refuse to play them. I say this as a Genestealer Cult player.
CryonicCenobyte wrote: "Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."
"of the turn they deploy"
"turn they deploy"
This wording would have no relevance if you followed the disgusting rules-lawyers b******t logic of "hurr deployment isn't a turn". The Codex says there's a turn in which models deploy, therefore deployment is now considered to be part of turn 1 as of the release of this book, or it is as far as this specific rule is concerned at the very least.
Anyone trying to convince you otherwise is attempting to cheat and you should refuse to play them. I say this as a Genestealer Cult player.
Rule 1 much? Anyway, the alternative perspective is that this codex doesn't completely re-write a major special rule and deployment for the entire game, and instead is just worded so that CA can be used for both infiltration and for coming on from ongoing reserves - as it specifies is possible. If I were infiltrating with CA, the solution is simple, just ignore the parts of the rules that don't make sense.
Maybe it was intended that if you use CA with infiltrate you're not meant to move, but the wording of the rule doesn't support it. I'd argue that if they did want that to be the case, the cult should move onto the table at the start of t1 (so after everyone sets up and avoiding seize rolls, in the normal reserve phase) rather than as infiltration occurs - before t1. It can surely only be either or, not both.
The wording of the rule absolutely supports it, and again you're being intentionally dense and getting on my nerves. I can't abide cheaters, it's just pathetic.
The wording is, VERBATIM, "cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy".
Deployment ONLY HAPPENS at the start of the game, so that part of the rule cannot be applying to the cases where you ambush from Reserve.
The rule says the TURN THEY DEPLOY, meaning deployment MUST happen during a turn.
You cannot move turn 1 if you deployed with Cult Ambush. Period. Period. Arguing otherwise is a despicable demonstration of trying to cheat for advantage and the people who do that are in direct opposition to the spirit of the game. Cut that **** out.
CryonicCenobyte wrote: The wording of the rule absolutely supports it, and again you're being intentionally dense and getting on my nerves. I can't abide cheaters, it's just pathetic.
The wording is, VERBATIM, "cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy".
Deployment ONLY HAPPENS at the start of the game, so that part of the rule cannot be applying to the cases where you ambush from Reserve.
The rule says the TURN THEY DEPLOY, meaning deployment MUST happen during a turn.
You cannot move turn 1 if you deployed with Cult Ambush. Period. Period. Arguing otherwise is a despicable demonstration of trying to cheat for advantage and the people who do that are in direct opposition to the spirit of the game. Cut that **** out.
"...the turn they deploy." There are two times a unit deploys - one is at the start of the game before the first turn (since Seizing happens after this which affects who has first turn), and when they arrive from Reserves (as an example, re-read the Deep Strike rules), which happens on Turns 2-6 (possibly Turn 1 as well, but only in a select few armies).
CryonicCenobyte wrote: "Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."
I note that you are ignoring the most important part.
Infiltrate most definitely specifies otherwise in its use of timing. To believe otherwise is to ignore what Infiltrate states.
I agree that 'deploy' is meant to refer to infiltrators who instead roll on the CA table. However, I also agree that deployment doesn't happen in a game turn, so the movement restriction in sentence 2 cannot apply to units who infiltrate and choose to roll on CA.
There's actually another plausible interpretation, though. You could argue that the movement restriction only applies to rolls of 1 and 2 on the chart, because those units are the only ones that move as part of their deployment/arrival. Sentence 2 reads, ""Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield." You could argue that results 3-6 on the table otherwise specify how the units arrive, i.e. by setting up instead of moving on, and they haven't moved at all (so any movement they make isn't further movement) and therefore the movement restriction doesn't apply to them.
It's also worth mentioning that sentence 2 refers to 'other Reserves,' which suggests sentence 2 applies only to units arriving from reserves, not infiltrators. That's probably just sloppy writing, though.
Hesperus wrote: I agree that 'deploy' is meant to refer to infiltrators who instead roll on the CA table. However, I also agree that deployment doesn't happen in a game turn, so the movement restriction in sentence 2 cannot apply to units who infiltrate and choose to roll on CA.
There's actually another plausible interpretation, though. You could argue that the movement restriction only applies to rolls of 1 and 2 on the chart, because those units are the only ones that move as part of their deployment/arrival. Sentence 2 reads, ""Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield." You could argue that results 3-6 on the table otherwise specify how the units arrive, i.e. by setting up instead of moving on, and they haven't moved at all (so any movement they make isn't further movement) and therefore the movement restriction doesn't apply to them.
It's also worth mentioning that sentence 2 refers to 'other Reserves,' which suggests sentence 2 applies only to units arriving from reserves, not infiltrators. That's probably just sloppy writing, though.
This is an argument I've been mulling over and I always think of a roll of 6. If you can move after using CA then why say the unit sets up outside of 3"? It would be better, at that point, to say setup outside of 9" and can charge turn they deploy. Alternatively, just make it a 1" deploy and just cut to the end result. The conclusion I come to is that they cannot move. They can still charge and probably will make the charge, but can still fail the charge on a roll of 2 which gives the target unit a chance to get away.
Hesperus wrote: I agree that 'deploy' is meant to refer to infiltrators who instead roll on the CA table. However, I also agree that deployment doesn't happen in a game turn, so the movement restriction in sentence 2 cannot apply to units who infiltrate and choose to roll on CA.
There's actually another plausible interpretation, though. You could argue that the movement restriction only applies to rolls of 1 and 2 on the chart, because those units are the only ones that move as part of their deployment/arrival. Sentence 2 reads, ""Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield." You could argue that results 3-6 on the table otherwise specify how the units arrive, i.e. by setting up instead of moving on, and they haven't moved at all (so any movement they make isn't further movement) and therefore the movement restriction doesn't apply to them.
It's also worth mentioning that sentence 2 refers to 'other Reserves,' which suggests sentence 2 applies only to units arriving from reserves, not infiltrators. That's probably just sloppy writing, though.
This is an argument I've been mulling over and I always think of a roll of 6. If you can move after using CA then why say the unit sets up outside of 3"? It would be better, at that point, to say setup outside of 9" and can charge turn they deploy. Alternatively, just make it a 1" deploy and just cut to the end result. The conclusion I come to is that they cannot move. They can still charge and probably will make the charge, but can still fail the charge on a roll of 2 which gives the target unit a chance to get away.
I don't know if this particular argument holds up - being forced to set up 6" further from the enemy but then move limits your tactical options a lot - the enemy can deny you the ability by placing units 13" apart, and on first turn you get a ton less versatility, especially if your opponent siezes and moves away first.
This is an argument I've been mulling over and I always think of a roll of 6. If you can move after using CA then why say the unit sets up outside of 3"? It would be better, at that point, to say setup outside of 9" and can charge turn they deploy. Alternatively, just make it a 1" deploy and just cut to the end result. The conclusion I come to is that they cannot move. They can still charge and probably will make the charge, but can still fail the charge on a roll of 2 which gives the target unit a chance to get away.
I don't know if this particular argument holds up - being forced to set up 6" further from the enemy but then move limits your tactical options a lot - the enemy can deny you the ability by placing units 13" apart, and on first turn you get a ton less versatility, especially if your opponent siezes and moves away first.
Yeah, I think that's too much of a stretch, mostly because I think it gives the rule writers a little too much credit. Frankly, I don't think they really thought through that they were replacing one rule (reserves) that takes place in the movement phase and another (infiltrate) that takes place before the game starts. Given the fact that they didn't think through that, I'm not willing to assume that they were thinking about charge ranges when they wrote the rule.
Hesperus wrote: Yeah, I think that's too much of a stretch, mostly because I think it gives the rule writers a little too much credit. Frankly, I don't think they really thought through that they were replacing one rule (reserves) that takes place in the movement phase and another (infiltrate) that takes place before the game starts. Given the fact that they didn't think through that, I'm not willing to assume that they were thinking about charge ranges when they wrote the rule.
Yeah, it's not like they don't already have a history of doing that when they write rules, such as how a Super-Heavy's multiple targeting or Power of the Machine Spirit works with the 7th Edition Shooting Sequence after they changed it.
CryonicCenobyte wrote: The wording of the rule absolutely supports it, and again you're being intentionally dense and getting on my nerves. I can't abide cheaters, it's just pathetic.
The wording is, VERBATIM, "cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy".
Deployment ONLY HAPPENS at the start of the game, so that part of the rule cannot be applying to the cases where you ambush from Reserve.
The rule says the TURN THEY DEPLOY, meaning deployment MUST happen during a turn.
You cannot move turn 1 if you deployed with Cult Ambush. Period. Period. Arguing otherwise is a despicable demonstration of trying to cheat for advantage and the people who do that are in direct opposition to the spirit of the game. Cut that **** out.
it looks as if you lost a game, because your opponent used the ca rule and you try to cheat in such a way that that doesn't happen.
As for your argument, you also deploy when you arrive from reserves and because infiltrates happens before turn 1 you can move turn 1.
But I would be happy to follow your interperation, because it makes ca only more powerfull, seeing how it doesn't realy matter who has turn 1, because my army will only come during turn 1
. So I placed them next to some poor 
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This make a little more sense, Thank you Charistoph. Cult Ambushing Units are in fact infiltrating, We do roll off who infiltrate 1st and such, and they do not charge on the 1st turn unless say otherwise. I was under the impression that you just need Infiltrate Special rule just to deployed last and since you used that rule to do that, you also don't assault on the 1st turn. Like Charistoph pointed out, units with Cult Ambush Deploy using Cult Ambush table.
, can I fire at turn 0? And if I get 5 with genestealer (no ranged weapon), it say that the unit can run at mouvement phase.. turn 1? 
because it's not the turn they deploy...