Hello all, Im not sure what section this should be put in so if a MOD see's fit to move it that would be welcome. Anyhow, onto the show.

After moving to CSM with the release of Traitors Hate, I am left with a few questions on how three things work.

a) Can the supplement Crimson Slaughter be used to create a Black Crusade detatchment? Black Legion is fine to use due to it being listed as a chaos space marine faction but the Slaughter is worded in a different way. Which is, that it uses the CSM codex to make up its composition rather than outwardly stated that it is a CSM force ala Black Legion.

b) The Heldrake Terror Pack formation states that when a model from its formation makes a vector strike against a pinned target that it deals extra hits. My question is thus. In pinning rules it says that the unit being pinned returns to a normal state at the end of its FOLLOWING turn. To me this reads that if a unit is pinned in my shooting phase then it is gone to ground for both my turn AND his next turn, leaving the unit still in a pinned state at the beginning of my next turn to where I can vector strike it. My opponent says this is not the case and the the pinned unit returns to a normal state at the end of his turn making the special rule of the Heldrake Terror Pack useless. Which of us is right?

c) The Terminator Annihilation Force has a special rule called Target Updated. In which it states that if the recipient of the Targeted for Annihilation special rule dies or is removed from play that you (the controlling player) can pick a new enemy unit as a replacement unit. My question is that since CSM terminators have no way of returning to reserves that they cannot deep strike a second time to make use of the rule on the new target. Which would make the rule useless.

Now once more, im sorry if this is the incorrect section for these questions. If anyone has answers id be very grateful for them. Thanks in advance.

I'm not sure for A & B off-hand, but for C, this is in case you nominate a light target (say a Rhino) as your Targeted for Annihilation and it went off after you Deep Strike, or some other unit killed it beforehand.

One thing I'm personally wondering about is that the rules specifically say Deep Strike and not Deep Strike Reserve, so it could be amusing to see if this combos with Gate of Infinity...

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I'm not sure for A & B off-hand, but for C, this is in case you nominate a light target (say a Rhino) as your Targeted for Annihilation and it went off after you Deep Strike, or some other unit killed it beforehand.

One thing I'm personally wondering about is that the rules specifically say Deep Strike and not Deep Strike Reserve, so it could be amusing to see if this combos with Gate of Infinity...

Hey, thanks for answering. The rule says Deep Strike and not Deep Strike reserve. Im aware of Gate but its a sanctic power and not sure that is worth the extra chance to peril just to get a few more bolter shots on a target. But it could be.

I wasn't thinking Bolter shots. Burning Brand on the other hand. It's still rather silly mind you.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I wasn't thinking Bolter shots. Burning Brand on the other hand. It's still rather silly mind you.

Now you are cooking with gas. And a great idea. But, i am not sure if a attached charecter is subject to the units special rules. Would be great to find out however as it would be a nasty combo.

A) CS and BL work the same. You can make any csm detachment or formation also a supplement formation which gives the detachment/formation extra rules. Both are of faction: csm.

B) Pinning wears of at the end of the opponents following turn, aka the turn after yours. So you pin something in your turn, they remain pinned during the opponents turn and when your next turn starts they are unpinned again and since vectorstriking happens in the movement phase you don't get a chance to pin them again. The only way to vector strike a pinned unit would be to pin it during the opponents turn or during your movement phase, so unless you are charged and overwatch with a pinning weapon I'm not sure how you're supposed to make this happen. So yes, that bonus rule is all but pointless.

Or you'd need to get super exotic and get the auloth legacy and put it on a hell talon. Now it's bombs are pinning and they also hit in the movement phase, but ...erm...why?

C) It's not useless, but it's not as amazing as you first think. It's hatred(everything) so it's better than the decurion hatred and still applies when they charge the unit later. Plus you have a minimum of 3 units which are unlikely to arrive at the same time, so you can kill the target unit and then nominate a new one for the units that didn't make their reserve roll.

And as for reserves, it specifies them deploying by deepstrike, which means putting them in deepstrike reserve and arriving either naked or in a flyer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Table wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I wasn't thinking Bolter shots. Burning Brand on the other hand. It's still rather silly mind you.

Now you are cooking with gas. And a great idea. But, i am not sure if a attached charecter is subject to the units special rules. Would be great to find out however as it would be a nasty combo.

Any random character, no. The formation requires a lord or sorcerer though, which benefit from the formation rules and can take the brand. Funnily enough you could also throw quite a lot of blight grenades with this.

Could you pin a target if you wrecked its transport with a Vector Strike (or with the Terminator formation)? I'm guessing their intent was "Keep the Heldrakes around, lower Leadership, then get extra hits in." It's still a very incidental bonus at that. The rule seems more intended for "following up" breaking your opponent after an assault, so it's still gimmicky. An extra Ld penalty bubble would be nice for Daemons though if they comboed it with Nurgle's bell.

You could if those caused pinning, but neither of them do.

A-Yes, you totall can. do note though, that the formation The Tormented does NOT work well with CS due to the fact they cannot have any units with VotOW, and a deamon price can't not have one.

B-Your opponent is correct. the effect ends in the end of your opponent's turn. getting an enemy unit pinned in your own movement phase is absurdly difficult and can generally only be done by vector striking a transport and blowing it up (overwatch does not work, you can't pin in overwatch), or some sort of special ability that lets you shoot in the movement phase on a unit that happens to be pinning.


C-the hatred part still works (as little at that's worth), and it works perfectly well if the target died/left the field before the terminator squad has deepstruck. I assume the "died before we got here" is the reason why that rule exists.

Excellent answers! Its to bad about pinning. I was making a Slanneshi warband based around pinning and vector striking heldrakes. Oh, what could have been.

Welcome to CSM- where our special rules aren't that special.

 BoomWolf wrote:
A-Yes, you totall can. do note though, that the formation The Tormented does NOT work well with CS due to the fact they cannot have any units with VotOW, and a deamon price can't not have one.

B-Your opponent is correct. the effect ends in the end of your opponent's turn. getting an enemy unit pinned in your own movement phase is absurdly difficult and can generally only be done by vector striking a transport and blowing it up (overwatch does not work, you can't pin in overwatch), or some sort of special ability that lets you shoot in the movement phase on a unit that happens to be pinning.


C-the hatred part still works (as little at that's worth), and it works perfectly well if the target died/left the field before the terminator squad has deepstruck. I assume the "died before we got here" is the reason why that rule exists.

Checked the rules again. You're right. Pinning just says"... [the unit] must take a Leadership test once the firing unit has finished its shooting attack for that phase." emphasis mine. Pinning doesn't specify the shooting phase so would work in any phase, except that overwatch fire can't cause morale or pinning tests. You can, however go to ground from overwatch fire, which makes zero sense to do, but you can. Indeed the last sentence in going to ground says that if you go to ground from overwatch, the charge fails. Which isn't going to happen, like ever. Unless you rigged the dice something fierce.

People seem to overlook the fact that the Terror Pack's bonus goes against units that are falling back as well, so the rule isn't 100% useless. Pointless to include pinning in there, but the rule itself can still be used.

Didn't say the rule as a whole is useless, said the part about pinned/gonetoground units is (practically) useless as the scenario is impractical as it gets.

Unis falling back are often not your prime targets either. and units that fall back on your movement phase are also not very common. practically everything is ATSKNF (auto regroup in their turn), fearless or dead meat anyway.

The formation rules are pretty lousy.
And that's fne because its the "spam heldrakes" formations. and heldrakes are pretty awesome even without formations.

 Roknar wrote:
A) CS and BL work the same. You can make any csm detachment or formation also a supplement formation which gives the detachment/formation extra rules. Both are of faction: csm.

But there is still no way to get the free votlw for a cyclopia cabale, right? As the cabale is not listed as part of the Black Crusade Detachment?

Regarding C, it's not useless at all. The sequence goes like this:

1. Roll for all your reserves together.
2. Deploy a unit from this formation onto the table via deep strike.
3. Immediately make a shooting attack with the unit.
4. If the target is destroyed, immediately pick a new target.
5. Repeat steps 2-4 until all units from the formation are deployed.

So you can potentially kill multiple targets during the movement phase. Pity there aren't many weapons in a terminator squad worth firing multiple times in a turn.

You could try to pin someone with 6-th Strategic warlord trait and than start your drake on board using a landing pad. Also, they can go to ground from movement phase shooting like csm or marine termie shooting or genestealer cult ambush shooting. It might even come into play once...in gaming history.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
A) CS and BL work the same. You can make any csm detachment or formation also a supplement formation which gives the detachment/formation extra rules. Both are of faction: csm.

But there is still no way to get the free votlw for a cyclopia cabale, right? As the cabale is not listed as part of the Black Crusade Detachment?

I wish. I'd be all over that. You take the cabal in parallel to the detachment and unfortunately the free VotLW doesn't apply army wide, it's only detachment wide. I actually prefer the BL formations because of how much smaller they are, but between tax units and mass VotLW they don't really work out all that well. I like playing BL but I still try to minimize the impact of VotLW. Even for fun games it's too expensive to just buy it on everything.

 Cheexsta wrote:
Regarding C, it's not useless at all. The sequence goes like this:

1. Roll for all your reserves together.
2. Deploy a unit from this formation onto the table via deep strike.
3. Immediately make a shooting attack with the unit.
4. If the target is destroyed, immediately pick a new target.
5. Repeat steps 2-4 until all units from the formation are deployed.

So you can potentially kill multiple targets during the movement phase. Pity there aren't many weapons in a terminator squad worth firing multiple times in a turn.

There's an article on BoLS that uses this sequence as an example of why it's actually really good. You use it as counter for Interceptor. Use your Termies to kill whatever has interceptor, then bring in your Raptor Talon formation unopposed.

 Roknar wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
A) CS and BL work the same. You can make any csm detachment or formation also a supplement formation which gives the detachment/formation extra rules. Both are of faction: csm.

But there is still no way to get the free votlw for a cyclopia cabale, right? As the cabale is not listed as part of the Black Crusade Detachment?

I wish. I'd be all over that. You take the cabal in parallel to the detachment and unfortunately the free VotLW doesn't apply army wide, it's only detachment wide. I actually prefer the BL formations because of how much smaller they are, but between tax units and mass VotLW they don't really work out all that well. I like playing BL but I still try to minimize the impact of VotLW. Even for fun games it's too expensive to just buy it on everything.

Yeah, that's the bad thing about chaos. Even now that we got a lot of supplements it doesn't really help since you can't really connect them. It would be a blast if we could take the balestar of mannon in a black crusade detachment cabal...
However, it is possible to take a core choice of the black crusade detachment as Black legion and the auxillary choice as crimson slaughter, right?

Yes. You would have to take the crusaude detachment as vanilla csm though. Then you can still make any od the individual detachments anything you want. Except for a few exceptions, like the command formation or the veterans of the legions, since those aren't real formations. On the plus side it allows you to take special characters or a daemon prince in an otherwise CS army. The command choice would be vanilla csm after all.

Wrong, the entire Crusade is a single detachment and a such must be the same supplement

The crusade detachment is a csm detachment and follows csm rules, the formations that make it up are also csm detachments and any csm formation can also be made into a supplement formation. They are still csm formations. They are also all still faction:csm.

 Cheexsta wrote:
Regarding C, it's not useless at all. The sequence goes like this:

1. Roll for all your reserves together.
2. Deploy a unit from this formation onto the table via deep strike.
3. Immediately make a shooting attack with the unit.
4. If the target is destroyed, immediately pick a new target.
5. Repeat steps 2-4 until all units from the formation are deployed.

So you can potentially kill multiple targets during the movement phase. Pity there aren't many weapons in a terminator squad worth firing multiple times in a turn.

As someone that does Termicide a lot, it is mostly about running afterwards for a sweet maybe-going-to-survive squad.

 koooaei wrote:
You could try to pin someone with 6-th Strategic warlord trait and than start your drake on board using a landing pad. Also, they can go to ground from movement phase shooting like csm or marine termie shooting or genestealer cult ambush shooting. It might even come into play once...in gaming history.

Only Flyers with the Hover rule can start on a Skyshield.

Heldrakes have Hover.

If you're running a Warband, free VotLW for upped Leadership helps alleviate one of the main weaknesses of Chaos. If you're running Lost and the Dammed or (even) the Maelstrom, Crimson Slaughter at least gives Fear on assorted units that wouldn't get if (Spawn and Cultists. Spooky, spooky cultists).

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You could try to pin someone with 6-th Strategic warlord trait and than start your drake on board using a landing pad. Also, they can go to ground from movement phase shooting like csm or marine termie shooting or genestealer cult ambush shooting. It might even come into play once...in gaming history.

Only Flyers with the Hover rule can start on a Skyshield.

A requirement that the Heldrake meets

 CrownAxe wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You could try to pin someone with 6-th Strategic warlord trait and than start your drake on board using a landing pad. Also, they can go to ground from movement phase shooting like csm or marine termie shooting or genestealer cult ambush shooting. It might even come into play once...in gaming history.

Only Flyers with the Hover rule can start on a Skyshield.

A requirement that the Heldrake meets

My mistake. I didn't think they had hover for some reason. . .

Cheexsta wrote:Regarding C, it's not useless at all. The sequence goes like this:

1. Roll for all your reserves together.
2. Deploy a unit from this formation onto the table via deep strike.
3. Immediately make a shooting attack with the unit.
4. If the target is destroyed, immediately pick a new target.
5. Repeat steps 2-4 until all units from the formation are deployed.

So you can potentially kill multiple targets during the movement phase. Pity there aren't many weapons in a terminator squad worth firing multiple times in a turn.

So, if you have three units of terminators as per the minimum of this formation, and you deploy one unit, which destroys the target, you can deploy another unit elsewhere on the board?
Or can you deploy ALL units via Deep Strike, unload, and (if you kill the first target) deep strike elsewhere on the board next turn?

BoomWolf wrote:Wrong, the entire Crusade is a single detachment and a such must be the same supplement

I thought this was the case. Can anyone give a clear yes/no?

The clear answer is that a detahment may only containa single faction, by default. Marines then hav ea furhter restriction on the detachment having a single chapter tactic, however I do not believe Chaos has the same restriction

Thus CS CSM and BL CSM are still faction CSM

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:Regarding C, it's not useless at all. The sequence goes like this:

1. Roll for all your reserves together.
2. Deploy a unit from this formation onto the table via deep strike.
3. Immediately make a shooting attack with the unit.
4. If the target is destroyed, immediately pick a new target.
5. Repeat steps 2-4 until all units from the formation are deployed.

So you can potentially kill multiple targets during the movement phase. Pity there aren't many weapons in a terminator squad worth firing multiple times in a turn.

So, if you have three units of terminators as per the minimum of this formation, and you deploy one unit, which destroys the target, you can deploy another unit elsewhere on the board?
Or can you deploy ALL units via Deep Strike, unload, and (if you kill the first target) deep strike elsewhere on the board next turn?

So say you have 3 Units of Termies, Units A, B, and C. Unit A deepstrikes in and has to make it's shooting attack immediately. It makes it, kills target. You now have to choose a new target. Now you may deepstrike unit B. If Unit B kills the new target, you have to choose a new target. Deep strike Unit C.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The clear answer is that a detahment may only containa single faction, by default. Marines then hav ea furhter restriction on the detachment having a single chapter tactic, however I do not believe Chaos has the same restriction

Thus CS CSM and BL CSM are still faction CSM

Wrong.

A detachment is either ENTIRELY CS, ENTIRELY BL, or ENTIRELY neither.

Just like you can't mix a few of them in one CAD, you cant mix several "subfactions" of formations in a single multi-formation-detachment.
Each is legal on its own (barring specific issues like CS and units that has VotOW), but they cannot be part of the same detachment.
The black crusade detachment, in it's entirety, must be relegated to a single "subfaction"

No, a supplement is the same faction that the parent codex is. They are not sub factions. Both supplements are literally CSM. Even the supplement only formations are CSM and have the appropriate faction symbol.

A CAD from a supplement is of faction CSM and ONLY faction CSM, but it gets the Supplement special rules, which force you to build your army in a certain way.

Subfactions aren't a thing to my knowledge. You are either a proper faction or take on the faction of your parent dex. Thus a CSM black crusade detachment limits your units to the csm codex but poses no further restrictions. Making an auxiliary a supplement formation in addition to the csm formation that it already is and stays, just adds further restrictions to that particular formation. It doesn't violate any rules.

 BoomWolf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The clear answer is that a detahment may only containa single faction, by default. Marines then hav ea furhter restriction on the detachment having a single chapter tactic, however I do not believe Chaos has the same restriction

Thus CS CSM and BL CSM are still faction CSM

Wrong.

A detachment is either ENTIRELY CS, ENTIRELY BL, or ENTIRELY neither.

Just like you can't mix a few of them in one CAD, you cant mix several "subfactions" of formations in a single multi-formation-detachment.
Each is legal on its own (barring specific issues like CS and units that has VotOW), but they cannot be part of the same detachment.
The black crusade detachment, in it's entirety, must be relegated to a single "subfaction"

Incorrect, you will notice you cited no rules.

BL are faction chaos marines. Thus they are not restricted from being in the same detachment as vanilla CSM.

Mix all you want.. vanilla chaos marines, black legion, crimson slaughter.. idk what that wolf guy is talking about, he is horribly WRONG.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Mix all you want.. vanilla chaos marines, black legion, crimson slaughter.. idk what that wolf guy is talking about, he is horribly WRONG.

I mean, not ALL you want. Each detachment/formation can only be one of the "sub-factions." Unless there is a way to have a formation that is both Black Legion AND Crimson Slaughter, but that just doesn't sit well with me (just opinion, if you can argue it I'll give it to ya). I only own the Black Legion supp, but I hear that Crimson Slaughter detachments can't have VotLW, and I know Black Legion units HAVE to take it.

So I follow the logic of using the Traitor's Hate Decurion, making formations within it CS or BL as desired provided doing so doesn't break restrictions. But if you make the Traitor's Hate Decurion CS or BL, then all the formations within it would be whatever you chose, because the whole mega-detachment got that affiliation applied to it.

I refer back to my picture. CSM detachments/formations become both csm and supplement, so technically you can apply both supplements to one formations or detachment. The only problem you run into is that none of them allow you to both take VotLW and not take VotLW at the same time. A hypothetical future formation might make it possible, who knows. Obviously not intended though.

The entire decurion becomes vanilla csm if that's what you take it as, and then you can turn the individual formations into their supplement version. You need to be careful about the non-formations though. Like the veterans of the legions. Those are bound to whatever the decurion is bound to.

Also, if you make the decurion a supplement detachment than all the models in that decurion are subject to the supplement rules, even if the sub formations aren't necessarily a supplement formation. So you wont't be able to mix if you do that. There isn't much of a benefit in doing so mind you. The hq in the command "formation" doesn't actually have be the warlord after all.

I also just realized that the command formation is 0-5, so you could take 5 daemon princes XD.

You completely and utterly misunderstood me, and then cited the very thing that proves me right.
Amusing actually.

A UNIT does not belong to a "subfaction" (note the use of brackets because subfaction isn't an official term, I define it as a set of rules that applies to an entire detachment, much like chapter tactics, black legion, farsight enclaves, etc.) , an entire formation or an entire detachment is.

Ergo, you cannot have in a single CAD both units that ARE Black Legion, and units that ARE NOT Black Legion.
Either everyone is Black Legion, or nobody is Black Legion. (in that formation/detachment)

Now, while each individual formation can be Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter or neither freely, your Black Crusade however can't contain formations that belong to different "subfactions" as it is all a single detachment, and the rules for the "subfaction" must be applied to the entire detachment, or not at all.
So one formation in the crusade is BL/CS, every other formation must also be so.


Also, a single detachment can't be both Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion not because any rules specifically forbids it, but because they got clashing restrictions, the first being forbidden from taking VotOW, and the later is forced to take it. There is simply no way to follow both sets of restrictions at once. (if it was possible to form an entire detachment that has no units that could take VotOW at all, it could technically work. but such setup does not exist.)

I'm not sure if you understood him correctly.
Example:
Your Black Crusade detachment is CSM, comprised of a warband that is CSM/BL and a Cult of Dextruction that is CSM/CS, nothing clashes. All parts of the detachment are CSM, and, as the rules allow, they are ALSO a certain subfaction. Their rules don't collide as they only apply to their formation, not the detachment. So you would have Oblits with fear, that can't use the free votlw. Or you could have a Chaos Lord with Daemonheart in the raptorformation as part of a Black Crusade detachment.

Yes, it does clashes on your example.

All parts are CSM, but the BL/CS rules must apply to the ENTIRE detachment, or none at all.
And as the entire Black Crusade is a single detachment, you can't have parts of the Black Crusade be Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter and some parts not be, just like a Tau Hunter Contingent can't have some of its formations Farsight Enclaves while others are not.

Yes, a stand-alone formation can take whatever "subfaction" he wants, but once you combine them to a Black Crusade, they are all one detachment, and as such need to adhere to detachment-wide rules.

In a CAD you can't mix supplements and vanilla per slot, since the entire detachment is either csm, BL and/or CS. The decurion is slightly different however. In two ways actually.
A CAD is not a csm detachment by default and so if you make it a Black Legion detachment it's a black legion detachment and only black legion. Which then applies a number of extra rules.
It's also comprised of roles, which you fill with individual units rather than formations.

Every model in the decurion is subject to whatever rules come with the supplement you choose, however it is always a csm detachment in addition to whatever supplement you choose. You don't even get a re-roll on the supplement warlord traits because it's written with vanilla csm in mind. All of the non-formations like the command formation are limited to whatever the decurion is declared as, just like in a CAD.
Unlike a CAD though, the decurion consists of individual formations. Those are csm formations by default. The supplements then allow you to make ANY csm formation ALSO into a supplement formation. Thus applying the supplement rules to that particular formation. They are normal formations, they don't somehow magically work different because they are part of a detachment.

So with an example, you take the decurion as vanilla csm. Say you take a command formation, that would then restricts those HQs to the vanilla dex relics since they can't benefit from the supplement.
Then you take a warband formation. This is by default also a csm formation and as such can become a supplement formation as well. Any HQ in that formation is now able to take the supplement relics and all models in that particular formation must adhere to the restrictions that particular formation gets in addition to being a csm formation. And given how a csm detachment actually means diddly squat, it doesn't interfere with either supplement restrictions.

Again, this is different from a CAD, the supplements only work on a detachment/formation level. You can't apply the supplement rules on a role level. And they work from the top down. A maelstrom of gore Black Legion formation applies it's rules to all models in that formation, it can't affect other formations or models.

Should you apply the supplement at the decurion level, it would still be a csm detachment, but all models in that decurion must adhere to the supplement special rules. You could STILL make a formation a CS formation. Because of our unit options, this doesn't actually work though.
However, it is actually possible to field such a CAD. Belakor is an hq that doesn't have VotLW nor does he have the option to take it, the same is true for cultists and CS are allowed to take all the cult units minus TSons, so you could use belakor, cultists, cult units and all sorts of vehicles. Of course it would be utterly pointless since the only benefit of doing so would be to unlock all relics on one character, but you can't actually take any relics.

So you when you take a csm decurion with a supplement formation, the decurion checks whether all models in it are of faction csm (they are) and then the maelstrom would further check whether the models in that have VotLW (in the case of BL) and if they do you're golden.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, it does clashes on your example.

All parts are CSM, but the BL/CS rules must apply to the ENTIRE detachment, or none at all.
And as the entire Black Crusade is a single detachment, you can't have parts of the Black Crusade be Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter and some parts not be, just like a Tau Hunter Contingent can't have some of its formations Farsight Enclaves while others are not.

Yes, a stand-alone formation can take whatever "subfaction" he wants, but once you combine them to a Black Crusade, they are all one detachment, and as such need to adhere to detachment-wide rules.

Which detachment wide rule is broken. Cite it.

Actually, we can take it a step further. You keep talking about subfactions when that concept simply doesn't exist.
There is no such thing as crimson slaughter possessed or black legion chosen. There are only formations and detachments that can be declared a supplement formation.
Being a CS detachment has no inherent function, but there are a number of special rules that affect units in a CS detachment. In the case of CS it prevents any model within that detachment to have VotLW and any possessed in that detachment have to use a different table from the vanilla possessed.

This actually means that you can't field CS possessed in an unbound army unless they are part of a formation, because there is no unit entry for CS possessed. There is only the slaves to the voices special rule which changes how possessed work in a CS detachment. And since there are no detachments in an unbound army there is no detachment to turn into a CS detachment and gain those rules. That's all there is to the supplements.
I suppose you could argue that your warlord is still considered to be part of the primary detachment and as such it would work but that's really besides the point.

So by using a vanilla Black Crusade detachment and then declaring that the warband is also a CS formation, the models in that warband are now affected by Harbingers of the tormented, Slaves to the voices and renegades of the dark millenium.
I don't see where you're getting this idea that these are somehow cascading special rules.

You seem to somehow misunderstand me yet.

My point being, is that because the supplement rules (And i can't for the life of me understand why the "subfaction" name confuses you. it doesn't mean anything else but the collective supplement rules) are applied on a DETACHMENT basis, and that the Black Crusade is just one detachment (and technically speaking, one formation that consist of multiple smaller formations), then the entire thing must have the rules for the "subfaction" apply, or not apply, because the CS/BL rules are noted to be applied to a detachment, not to a part of it.

Trying to say "well, the Back Crusade is core CSM, but the Warband alone is under supplement rules" doesn't work, because you have to apply the supplement to the entire detachment, or not at all. you can't just pick and choose what parts are supplement, just like you can't have a part of a CAD be a supplement.

Meaning, the entire thing is using the supplement, or the entire thing is not using the supplement-as a single detachment. the fact its "still CSM" is irrelevant to the question of whether the supplement itself is properly applied or not, and in your case it does not.


And for the love of god your avatar is distracting XD

Le sigh lol. We seem to be talking past each other.
The entire thing is either vanilla or vanilla+supplement. It is never only supplement.
Vanilla + supplement means every model in the entire thing has to follow the supplement rules. Pure vanilla means everything has to be a unit with faction CSM, period. It has no other restrictions.

In either case the entire thing is made up of other formations. In the case of pure vanilla that means that those can be csm+supplement. In which case they are still faction csm and don't violate any rule. They can coexist perfectly fine.
I made an illustration that might make more sense.

The only restriction the vanilla crusade detachment emplaces is that you use units from faction CSM. You then get the decurion command benefits.
Then you go ahead and take two warbands for example. You make one warband into vanilla+BL and the other vanilla+CS, because the rules say you can turn any vanilla formation into vanilla + supplement. The warbands are formations so you can use that rule.
Then the BL warband gets some additional special rules and the CS warband gets a different set of special rules.

The crusade restrictions apply to all models in both warbands, the extra special rules only apply to all models in their respective warband. All BL models that can take VotLW must take it, no model in the CS warband may have VotLW. Neither warband affects anything else in the crusade detachment. They can live happily next to each other without interfering with each other.

In this way you can mix the supplements in a black crusade detachment. On the flipside, when you use a vanilla+supplement crusade detachment the traitors hate special rule and friends apply to all models in the crusade detachment which is a lot more restricting.
You could technically even make it vanilla+supplement+supplement, but there is no way to select units such that you can adhere to both supplement rules. I gave an example where it is actually possible in a normal CAD.

You are spotlighting the fact that they are all CSM, and that what you say makes perfect sense from the prespective of the black crusade itself, yet completely brushing aside the simple fact you are ignoring how supplements work.

The supplement itself effects a detachment.
The two warbands in your chart, are both part of the SAME detachment.
If the detachment is not BL/CS, than NOTHING in that detachment is BL/CS. the fact the detachment is built out of several warbands simply does not change that fact.

I have a few questions:

1) If I use Favored Scions in the Chaos Warband, and roll two results, one of which turns my character into a Spawn or Prince, and the other which gives another non-transformative Boon, do I get to apply "both" to the same model? I would assume no, because they're technically different models.

2) Are Daemon Princes that transform from Dark Apotheosis part of the same detachment? Ex, could I then theoretically cast Boon of Mutation on one, and get the bonus from Favored Scions?

The early supplements did not allow using more than one supplement on a detachment. Did not BL and CS have this restriction as well?

 BoomWolf wrote:
You are spotlighting the fact that they are all CSM, and that what you say makes perfect sense from the prespective of the black crusade itself, yet completely brushing aside the simple fact you are ignoring how supplements work.

The supplement itself effects a detachment.
The two warbands in your chart, are both part of the SAME detachment.
If the detachment is not BL/CS, than NOTHING in that detachment is BL/CS. the fact the detachment is built out of several warbands simply does not change that fact.

I really don't know how I can make this any clearer.
I already posted a picture that allows you to say that ANY csm detachment or formation is ALSO a Supplment detachment/formation, aka in addition to being a csm detachment/formation.
Clearly a warband formation within a crusade detachment is a csm formation. As such you can make it a supplement formation.

The actual rules then look something like: "All models in a supplement formation or detachment must do so and so".
The warbands are supplement formations and so the rules apply to models/units in that that formation. They do NOT say : "any model/unit in an army containing a supplement formation must do so and so."

So clearly the rules only apply to the individual warband formations and the units therein in the case of my example.
A csm detachment applies no special rules or restrictions other than limiting you to csm units, which the supplement units are.

I gave you a rule that clearly states that you can have a supplement formation within another detachment. It makes no exception on when this is allowed.
Unless there is a rule that prevents you from doing so, mixing in supplement formations in a black crusade is legal.
I can't find anything in the brb or traitors hate that forces you to make all formations in a decurion/detachment the same type like you say. where are you getting this from?
The BRB has like one sentence on supplements, namely that they are of the same faction as their parent dex.
The supplements themselves only tell you that you can convert detachments/formations and traitor's hate says that units in the formations are also part of the detachment, not the other way round. They have the special rules of both, which doesn't introduce any conflicts.

Plus, the supplements only apply a few special rules to a formation, nothing more. Those formations and their units are no different from a normal csm formation from a rules perspective. Using a supplement is simply a matter of declaring that a formation is using the supplement rules.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:
The early supplements did not allow using more than one supplement on a detachment. Did not BL and CS have this restriction as well?

Scroll up, I added a picture of the relevant rule from the black legion supplement. They changed that part of the supplements in the newer versions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I have a few questions:

1) If I use Favored Scions in the Chaos Warband, and roll two results, one of which turns my character into a Spawn or Prince, and the other which gives another non-transformative Boon, do I get to apply "both" to the same model? I would assume no, because they're technically different models.

2) Are Daemon Princes that transform from Dark Apotheosis part of the same detachment? Ex, could I then theoretically cast Boon of Mutation on one, and get the bonus from Favored Scions?

1) I don't think that is actually covered by the rules beyond the active player controlling order of events. So I would allow it. A prince isn't meant to benefit from boons, but as long as you can let just about anything roll on the boon table via gift of mutation, I'd hardly consider this an issue. That's HIWPI mind you.

2) There was a thread about that not so long ago. IIRC the answer is yes. An ascended character would be part of the warband. Whether or not boon of mutation is affected by the favoured scions rule though is a different matter.

Last night something funny came up.

Me and a bud played a 2Vs3 game, 6000pts each side, my KDK ,his Black Legion using Traitor's Hate formation Vs 1 Guard army, 1DW/BA and 1000pts of Grey Knigths.

Very fluffy battle.

So my mate used the displacement power in the Geomortis discipline, he put a Termi Lord wiht its termi retinue in a ruin, he had the Dimensional Key, first turn, he use his power, to move the terrain, assault, and kill some models, with this he activates the key, hurray! no scatter in DS for everyone!.

This combo makes DSing units way more convinient, had my 2 termicide come in and pop leman russes like it was nothing thanks to that.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The early supplements did not allow using more than one supplement on a detachment. Did not BL and CS have this restriction as well?

Scroll up, I added a picture of the relevant rule from the black legion supplement. They changed that part of the supplements in the newer versions.

So, if I have access to the original book and it specifically states this, it makes your point invalid? The copy I have shows that limit in the bold section when the rules are first being introduced, which is not included in your screenshot.

It could also be said that you do not have permission to make a Crimson Slaughter Detachment as a Black Legion Detachment (or vice versa). It only applies to those that are solely showing up as a "Chaos Space Marines" Detachment. Kind of the same way I can't take an Apothecary and make him a Company Champion.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The early supplements did not allow using more than one supplement on a detachment. Did not BL and CS have this restriction as well?

Scroll up, I added a picture of the relevant rule from the black legion supplement. They changed that part of the supplements in the newer versions.

So, if I have access to the original book and it specifically states this, it makes your point invalid? The copy I have shows that limit in the bold section when the rules are first being introduced, which is not included in your screenshot.

I suppose so, but only if you allow using the older version though. Still it only prevents a detachment that is both black legion and crimson slaughter. The example with the dual warband would still be valid since formations are detachments, unless you're limiting that to "proper" detachments, in which case BoomWolf would be correct. In that case you couldn't use any formation with the supplement rules however, not even the ones from the newer supplements.
The old supplements say that you can only use one supplement when choosing a detachment. So you couldn't have a main supplement black crusade with formations from another, but can choose one warband in a vanilla crusade to be of a supplement and the another to be of a different supplement since they are separate detachments.

 Charistoph wrote:

It could also be said that you do not have permission to make a Crimson Slaughter Detachment as a Black Legion Detachment (or vice versa). It only applies to those that are solely showing up as a "Chaos Space Marines" Detachment. Kind of the same way I can't take an Apothecary and make him a Company Champion.

That is correct and all of the traitor's hate detachments and formations are chaos space marine detachments by default. The supplements then make them csm and supplement formations, which is why they would still count as csm formations for the other supplement to make dual supplement formation, however pointless that would be.

That's not the point tough. A csm Black crusade with a warband that applies BL rules and one that applies CS rules is not using double supplements. The crusade is pure csm, the BL warband is using BL rules and the other CS rules. And both warbands are still using csm rules.
From the point of view of each warband the other may as well not exist. They only care about the detachment they belong to, which is csm, which is totally fine.

I fail to see how this would cause any conflict.

 Roknar wrote:
I suppose so, but only if you allow using the older version though. Still it only prevents a detachment that is both black legion and crimson slaughter. The example with the dual warband would still be valid since formations are detachments, unless you're limiting that to "proper" detachments, in which case BoomWolf would be correct. In that case you couldn't use any formation with the supplement rules however, not even the ones from the newer supplements.
The old supplements say that you can only use one supplement when choosing a detachment. So you couldn't have a main supplement black crusade with formations from another, but can choose one warband in a vanilla crusade to be of a supplement and the another to be of a different supplement since they are separate detachments.

Sure if a new edition of the book was made. Was a new Black Legion supplement made?

I haven't followed 40K news for a couple months, so I honestly do not know.

 Roknar wrote:
That is correct and all of the traitor's hate detachments and formations are chaos space marine detachments by default. The supplements then make them csm and supplement formations, which is why they would still count as csm formations for the other supplement to make dual supplement formation, however pointless that would be.

That's not the point tough. A csm Black crusade with a warband that applies BL rules and one that applies CS rules is not using double supplements. The crusade is pure csm, the BL warband is using BL rules and the other CS rules. And both warbands are still using csm rules.
From the point of view of each warband the other may as well not exist. They only care about the detachment they belong to, which is csm, which is totally fine.

I fail to see how this would cause any conflict.

I thought that the point was to have two different supplements both providing their benefits to one detachment, not just different parts of a detachment (only possible because of the odd state of the Choice-based detachments).

The problem is, the supplements do not allow them to be active in only part of a detachment. Sure, you are fulfilling it when assigning it to one Formation of the Detachment, but you violate it by restricting it to only that part of the Detachment and not the larger whole detachment.

May as well have your Troops as Black Legion and your Elites as Crimson Slaughter for all the end results will look like.

Black legion was updated. Added in the cyclopian cabal for one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black legion was updated. Added in the cyclopian cabal for one.

And per standard GW practice did not take down the 2014 Erratas. Awesome.

Thank you.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I suppose so, but only if you allow using the older version though. Still it only prevents a detachment that is both black legion and crimson slaughter. The example with the dual warband would still be valid since formations are detachments, unless you're limiting that to "proper" detachments, in which case BoomWolf would be correct. In that case you couldn't use any formation with the supplement rules however, not even the ones from the newer supplements.
The old supplements say that you can only use one supplement when choosing a detachment. So you couldn't have a main supplement black crusade with formations from another, but can choose one warband in a vanilla crusade to be of a supplement and the another to be of a different supplement since they are separate detachments.

Sure if a new edition of the book was made. Was a new Black Legion supplement made?

I haven't followed 40K news for a couple months, so I honestly do not know.

Yea, both supplements got an update that changed the rules slightly and gave them formations.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
That is correct and all of the traitor's hate detachments and formations are chaos space marine detachments by default. The supplements then make them csm and supplement formations, which is why they would still count as csm formations for the other supplement to make dual supplement formation, however pointless that would be.

That's not the point tough. A csm Black crusade with a warband that applies BL rules and one that applies CS rules is not using double supplements. The crusade is pure csm, the BL warband is using BL rules and the other CS rules. And both warbands are still using csm rules.
From the point of view of each warband the other may as well not exist. They only care about the detachment they belong to, which is csm, which is totally fine.

I fail to see how this would cause any conflict.

I thought that the point was to have two different supplements both providing their benefits to one detachment, not just different parts of a detachment (only possible because of the odd state of the Choice-based detachments).

The problem is, the supplements do not allow them to be active in only part of a detachment. Sure, you are fulfilling it when assigning it to one Formation of the Detachment, but you violate it by restricting it to only that part of the Detachment and not the larger whole detachment.

May as well have your Troops as Black Legion and your Elites as Crimson Slaughter for all the end results will look like.

How is that a violation? What rule is forcing you to make the encompassing detachment also into a supplement detachment? Neither of you have explained why you think this is.

The only question you have to ask for the supplement rules is whether or not the units in question are in a supplement formation. To which the answer is yes.
Units in a formation inside a black crusade detachment are part of two detachments. The individual formation and the crusade. They don't form a new mixed detachment if that makes sense.
This is different to normal detachments and only works because of the rules of black crusade detachment.

So a unit in the BL warband is part of a BL formation and thus is subject to those rules. It is also subject to the rules of the crusade detachment. The crusade stands on it's own though, units in the crusade are not subjects to the rules of the formations that make up the crusade.

Mathematically speaking, the warband is a subset of the crusade. Units in the warband are part of both, but if you ask the question: Is this unit part of a black legion detachment? The answer is yes, regardless of what it is a part of. Is it part of the crusade? Yes, again regardless of what "sub formation" it is in.
The supplement rules ask exactly that question. Is this model/unit part of a supplement formation? Neither supplement cares about anything else.
Where are you getting the notion from that the crusade needs to also become a supplement formation?

I mean, the brb only says that supplement is the same faction as it's parent dex. it also says a unit can't belong to two detachments.
The supplement says you can declare a csm detachment to also be a supplement formation. A supplement formation is essentially just a name. They also have rules that apply to units in such detachments.
Traitor's hate allows you to override the brb rule where a unit can't be part of two detachments and provides a detachment made up of formations.

None of that prevents a formation in the black crusade to be a supplement formation.
Am I missing something or which part exactly are we in disagreement of?

Oh and the part about toops being black legion and elites crimson slaughter doesn't work. I touched on that earlier in the thread. You can only apply the rules to a detachment or formation as a whole. Which the warband formation is. A battlefield role is not.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
That is correct and all of the traitor's hate detachments and formations are chaos space marine detachments by default. The supplements then make them csm and supplement formations, which is why they would still count as csm formations for the other supplement to make dual supplement formation, however pointless that would be.

That's not the point tough. A csm Black crusade with a warband that applies BL rules and one that applies CS rules is not using double supplements. The crusade is pure csm, the BL warband is using BL rules and the other CS rules. And both warbands are still using csm rules.
From the point of view of each warband the other may as well not exist. They only care about the detachment they belong to, which is csm, which is totally fine.

I fail to see how this would cause any conflict.

I thought that the point was to have two different supplements both providing their benefits to one detachment, not just different parts of a detachment (only possible because of the odd state of the Choice-based detachments).

The problem is, the supplements do not allow them to be active in only part of a detachment. Sure, you are fulfilling it when assigning it to one Formation of the Detachment, but you violate it by restricting it to only that part of the Detachment and not the larger whole detachment.

May as well have your Troops as Black Legion and your Elites as Crimson Slaughter for all the end results will look like.

How is that a violation? What rule is forcing you to make the encompassing detachment also into a supplement detachment? Neither of you have explained why you think this is.

I thought I said it quite clearly. Can you have these supplements only affect part of a detachment, or does it have to affect a detachment, as in the whole detachment?

 Roknar wrote:
The only question you have to ask for the supplement rules is whether or not the units in question are in a supplement formation. To which the answer is yes.
Units in a formation inside a black crusade detachment are part of two detachments. The individual formation and the crusade. They don't form a new mixed detachment if that makes sense.
This is different to normal detachments and only works because of the rules of black crusade detachment.

But if this Formation is part of another Detachment, then THAT Detachment is only partially pointed out as being joined to this supplement, and thus where the problem lies.

 Roknar wrote:
So a unit in the BL warband is part of a BL formation and thus is subject to those rules. It is also subject to the rules of the crusade detachment. The crusade stands on it's own though, units in the crusade are not subjects to the rules of the formations that make up the crusade.

Mathematically speaking, the warband is a subset of the crusade. Units in the warband are part of both, but if you ask the question: Is this unit part of a black legion detachment? The answer is yes, regardless of what it is a part of. Is it part of the crusade? Yes, again regardless of what "sub formation" it is in.
The supplement rules ask exactly that question. Is this model/unit part of a supplement formation? Neither supplement cares about anything else.
Where are you getting the notion from that the crusade needs to also become a supplement formation?

Because either a supplement is for the entire detachment or it allowed to affect a partial detachment. If it is only affecting a Formation that is a Choice of a Detachment, then that supplement is only affecting a portion of that Detachment. Units in a Choice-based Detachment are part of two different Detachments (as noted in their rules).

 Roknar wrote:
Oh and the part about toops being black legion and elites crimson slaughter doesn't work. I touched on that earlier in the thread. You can only apply the rules to a detachment or formation as a whole. Which the warband formation is. A battlefield role is not.

Then you misunderstood the point of it. The Choices of a Choice-based Detachment like the Decurion occupy the same purpose as the Role slots in a Role-based Detachment. When looking at the Crusade with one or more, but not all, Formations as being a Black Legion Detachment, but not the whole Crusade, it is the equivalent of looking at a Combined Arms Detachment with only one or two Roles being part of the Black Legion, but not all of them.

In other words, you are looking at it from the bottomside-up, and I am looking at it from the topside-down. The individual Warband Formations can be supplement exclusive, no problem, but when joined as part of a Crusade, the rest of THAT detachment must also be in line otherwise the Crusade is a Detachment with only part of of its units as coming from that supplement.

Do you understand?

Sorry, I was probably editing my response before you answered, so could you respond to this as well before I answer?

"I mean, the brb only says that supplement is the same faction as it's parent dex. it also says a unit can't belong to two detachments.
The supplement says you can declare a csm detachment to also be a supplement formation. A supplement formation is essentially just a name. They also have rules that apply to units in such detachments.
Traitor's hate allows you to override the brb rule where a unit can't be part of two detachments and provides a detachment made up of formations.

None of that prevents a formation in the black crusade to be a supplement formation.
Am I missing something or which part exactly are we in disagreement of? "

 Roknar wrote:
Sorry, I was probably editing my response before you answered, so could you respond to this as well before I answer?

"I mean, the brb only says that supplement is the same faction as it's parent dex. it also says a unit can't belong to two detachments.
The supplement says you can declare a csm detachment to also be a supplement formation. A supplement formation is essentially just a name. They also have rules that apply to units in such detachments.
Traitor's hate allows you to override the brb rule where a unit can't be part of two detachments and provides a detachment made up of formations.

None of that prevents a formation in the black crusade to be a supplement formation.
Am I missing something or which part exactly are we in disagreement of? "

The BRB is not in question here. It is the rules of the Black Legion itself which is in question. Per its own statement you provided, the Black Legion supplement works on Chaos Space Marine detachments. Nothing in it states that it works on Crimson Slaughter Detachments.

In addition, it does not state that it works on just part of Chaos Space Marine Detachments, which is what would allow it to be used on a a single Choice Formation of a Choice Detachment like the Black Crusade. Remember, that by using a Choice Detachment, the Formation is not an independent Formation, but also part of another Detachment as well, and we still have to recognize it in all parts of how we are applying supplement rules.

Thanks for replying. finally geting somehwere with this.
The black legion supplement works on a csm detachment, as does the crimson slaughter and given how the detachment doesn't stop being a csm detachment, the CS supplement allows you to declare it as a CS detachment as well in it's own right. Both only care about the detachment being a csm detachment. They don't provide any restriction like the old supplements did.

It seem we disagree on the part about choice formations. From my point of view, a choice formation isn't any different than a normal formation. As such you can apply the supplement to such a formation and that's it. It isn't concerned about being part of a larger detachment. And as it is still a csm formation, the crusade detachment is also legal.
The units making up the formation are part of the formation and part of the crusade detachment and are subject to the rules of both. That alone doesn't cause a conflict.
There are no rules that say you can't have mixed formations, or battlefield roles for that matter. The only reason you can't have mixed battlefield roles is because the supplements only work on detachments and formations. It's not actually forbidden.

The supplements aren't being applied to only part for a detachment or formation, they are being applied to the entirety of the choice formation. The rules specifically allow you to apply this to both formations and detachments.

You said that mixing is the equivalent of having mixed battlefield roles. The only rules governing how choice formations work is in their respective books. Traitor's hate says the crusade detachment is a mix of specific formations and army list entries instead of battlefield roles. Some compulsory, some optional. And that units in a formation that is part of the crusade is part of both. That's it. It doesn't say anything about treating those formations differently than individual formations. It doesn't impose any additional restrictions.

Additionally, it works both from the top down and from the bottom up. From the top, the crusade is a csm detachment made up of formations. Using my example, it is made up of 2 warband formations ( and let's just throw in a spawn to make it legal). If you make those two formations supplement formations, nothing changes. It is still made up of 2 core formations. And from the bottom up a unit is part of a formation and the detachment. Assuming the unit is of faction csm and can follow the supplement rules, it's good.

The only difference between a purely csm formation and a supplement formation is that the supplement formations have an additional restriction,such as:"This is Black Legion formation". That is literally the only difference between a supplement formation and a csm formation. From an army organisational perspective they are identical.
The formations don't even get additional rules per se. The supplement rules exist outside of the formation so to speak and apply to units within a supplement formation, they aren't formation special rules in the ordinary sense.

I guess my point is that a supplement formation is only different from a unit's perspective. They don't change how you organize your army, they only change how some units work.
A supplement formation only adds a restriction. That restriction has no more effect on it's encasing detachment than the restriction saying the raptor talon lord needs a jump pack.
I believe I get where you're coming from now, but RAW doesn't support your version. It may not be intended this way but there is no rule that prohibits you from having choice formations with additional restrictions. And that is the only difference between a supplement formation and a regular formation. Provided of course you can still make legal unit configurations.

 Roknar wrote:
Thanks for replying. finally geting somehwere with this.
The black legion supplement works on a csm detachment, as does the crimson slaughter and given how the detachment doesn't stop being a csm detachment, the CS supplement allows you to declare it as a CS detachment as well in it's own right. Both only care about the detachment being a csm detachment. They don't provide any restriction like the old supplements did.

But it only describes doing so for a CSM detachment, not a CSM AND CS detachment.

 Roknar wrote:
It seem we disagree on the part about choice formations. From my point of view, a choice formation isn't any different than a normal formation. As such you can apply the supplement to such a formation and that's it. It isn't concerned about being part of a larger detachment. And as it is still a csm formation, the crusade detachment is also legal.
The units making up the formation are part of the formation and part of the crusade detachment and are subject to the rules of both. That alone doesn't cause a conflict.
There are no rules that say you can't have mixed formations, or battlefield roles for that matter. The only reason you can't have mixed battlefield roles is because the supplements only work on detachments and formations. It's not actually forbidden.

Than you are ignoring the fact that a Formation taken as a Choice has its units in two different detachments at the same time.

Can a detachment be partially made up of units with rules from a supplement? The "it doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't work because we are looking for where it says you can.

 Roknar wrote:
The supplements aren't being applied to only part for a detachment or formation, they are being applied to the entirety of the choice formation. The rules specifically allow you to apply this to both formations and detachments.

But that Choice Formation is also part of a larger Detachment. It is this key point you keep seeming to forget.

When you look at the larger detachment, only some of its units are listed as being from the BL/CS supplement. Where is the rule that allows you to partially dedicate a detachment to a supplement? I am asking on behalf of the larger detachment, not the smaller one now.

 Roknar wrote:
You said that mixing is the equivalent of having mixed battlefield roles. The only rules governing how choice formations work is in their respective books. Traitor's hate says the crusade detachment is a mix of specific formations and army list entries instead of battlefield roles. Some compulsory, some optional. And that units in a formation that is part of the crusade is part of both. That's it. It doesn't say anything about treating those formations differently than individual formations. It doesn't impose any additional restrictions.

No, I did not say it was the equivalent of having mixed battlefield roles. I said that having some, but not all, Choices be Black Legion would be like taking a CAD and having your Troops from Black Legion and your Elites from Crimson Slaughter. You are only applying the supplement to part of the detachment, not to all of it.

By taking the formation as part of the larger detachment, you are recognizing that detachment as the ultimate organization of that portion of your army. You cannot legally separate the Formation from the Detachment for the purposes of the supplement and still expect to benefit from its Command Benefits. It would be like a Space Marine Chapter Master separating itself from a unit of Centurions, but still expecting to use their Slow and Purposeful. It does not work that way, and there are zero rules to support such an action.

 Roknar wrote:
Additionally, it works both from the top down and from the bottom up. From the top, the crusade is a csm detachment made up of formations. Using my example, it is made up of 2 warband formations ( and let's just throw in a spawn to make it legal). If you make those two formations supplement formations, nothing changes. It is still made up of 2 core formations. And from the bottom up a unit is part of a formation and the detachment. Assuming the unit is of faction csm and can follow the supplement rules, it's good.

So long as that entire Crusade Detachment are following the same supplement rules, correct. Otherwise, if you have Formation #1 as Black Legion and Formation #2 as Crimson Slaughter or just simply NOT Black Legion, then your detachment is 33% Choices Black Legion and 66% Choices not.

To put this in to CAD terms, you have your Troops as Black Legion, but your Elites are not. This is not supported as being allowed by the rules you referenced.

 Roknar wrote:
The only difference between a purely csm formation and a supplement formation is that the supplement formations have an additional restriction,such as:"This is Black Legion formation". That is literally the only difference between a supplement formation and a csm formation. From an army organisational perspective they are identical.
The formations don't even get additional rules per se. The supplement rules exist outside of the formation so to speak and apply to units within a supplement formation, they aren't formation special rules in the ordinary sense.

And you are ignoring the point. The problem is not in the Formations themselves, the problem is when you look at the Crusade Detachment as a whole, is it a Black Legion Detachment, yes or no? Your answer is, "partially". That answer is not allowed in the rules you referenced. It is not forbidden, either, but we need to find where it is allowed.

 Roknar wrote:
I guess my point is that a supplement formation is only different from a unit's perspective. They don't change how you organize your army, they only change how some units work.
A supplement formation only adds a restriction. That restriction has no more effect on it's encasing detachment than the restriction saying the raptor talon lord needs a jump pack.
I believe I get where you're coming from now, but RAW doesn't support your version. It may not be intended this way but there is no rule that prohibits you from having choice formations with additional restrictions. And that is the only difference between a supplement formation and a regular formation. Provided of course you can still make legal unit configurations.

The problem isn't from the unit's perspective or the Formation's perspective. It is when you look at the Crusade Detachment and say, "This part of the Detachment is Black Legion, but this part is not". Remember, the actual Black Legion Special Rules state that this is in regards to a detachment, NOT the unit.

I'm not ignoring the fact that part of the crusade is a supplement formation. I'm saying it's irrelevant.
It's not just because it's not forbidden.

A supplement formation is a normal csm formation with an additional restriction, no more no less.
The supplements give you a blanket permission to add that restriction to any csm formation. The supplements use the word "any", that's not me paraphrasing. "Any" formation must thus include every possible formation, regardless of the presence of a larger detachment. To say otherwise would be imposing limits on the scope that simply aren't given in the supplement. So if this is giving you permission then traitor's hate would have to revoke or restrict that permission. It does not. This is where we clash.

 Charistoph wrote:
But it only describes doing so for a CSM detachment, not a CSM AND CS detachment.

Being a csm formation is enough. In order to apply the supplement restriction you need to ask exactly one question: Is this a csm formation? Nothing else matters, because that's what the supplements tell you to do.
This is equivalent to asking: is 1 a number? Whether or not it is an uneven or an even number makes no difference.

 Charistoph wrote:
Can a detachment be partially made up of units with rules from a supplement?

Yes. If this wasn't allowed the decurions wouldn't work because the units in the formations have extra rules and restrictions applied to them that are not from the crusade nor are they shared by other units in the crusade. A supplement formation only adds one restriction, it doesn't add any rules. It just says it is now also a supplement formation. To say you can't add a restriction would also break the normal formations, since they too add additional restrictions that the crusade does not have.

 Charistoph wrote:
But that Choice Formation is also part of a larger Detachment. It is this key point you keep seeming to forget.

When you look at the larger detachment, only some of its units are listed as being from the BL/CS supplement. Where is the rule that allows you to partially dedicate a detachment to a supplement? I am asking on behalf of the larger detachment, not the smaller one now.

...

So long as that entire Crusade Detachment are following the same supplement rules, correct. Otherwise, if you have Formation #1 as Black Legion and Formation #2 as Crimson Slaughter or just simply NOT Black Legion, then your detachment is 33% Choices Black Legion and 66% Choices not.
...

I'm not forgetting it, I'm saying it doesn't matter. For a crusade detachment to be legal you need 1 core and 1 auxiliary choice. A core formation with an additional restriction is still a core formation. The crusade doesn't care what the various restrictions are for the formations that make it up. It only matters if it it's a core/auxiliary choice or not.

Being functionally only 33% BL makes no difference. It would only make a difference if the supplements or traitor's hate specifically limited you by saying that any csm detachment may not consist of other types of formations. Which is a stretch since supplement formations are not different types either. There are only formations with more or less restrictions. Making it a supplement formation is only a figure of speech so to speak. It doesn't change the way the formation behaves or how the crusade treats them.

 Charistoph wrote:

And you are ignoring the point. The problem is not in the Formations themselves, the problem is when you look at the Crusade Detachment as a whole, is it a Black Legion Detachment, yes or no? Your answer is, "partially". That answer is not allowed in the rules you referenced. It is not forbidden, either, but we need to find where it is allowed.

The answer wouldn't be partially. The answer would be no, but that's not a question that is relevant in the first place.
On the one hand you need to ask whether or not your list is battleforged. For this you would need to ask if the crusade detachment is using at least one cor and one auxiliary. Yes.
Then you decide to add some restrictions to some of it's formations and ask again, is it still 1+ core and 1+ aux? Yes.
So it's a legal way of building the army.
Then you go ahead and configure your units, some of which must have VotLW , some of which may not. That's fine.
Being part of the crusade means that any units have VotLW as an option. The warbands would force it one way or another. Neither unit would be in conflict with the restrictions from the crusade

The only point where this might not be legal, is, as you state, the supplement or the crusade detachment itself prohibiting you from mixing supplement formations. As I stated in the beginning, the supplement allows it, by virtue of including all formations. Traitor's hate does not change that. Since we are given permission that is neither forbidden nor limited at any point, it must be legal.

If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation.

Straight from the updated Black Legion. The "or Formation" being present is what would allow having formations within the Black Crusade Detachment to have differing supplement options, without the overall Black Crusade detachment conflicting with the rule. Because it calls out formations explicitly, the overarching detachment does not become Black Legion (and thus does not disallow any Crimson Slaughter formations) by taking a core choice as a Black Legion formation.

Declaring a core choice as a Black Legion formation does not force the whole Crusade detachment into being Black Legion. However, if you were to declare that the Crusade detachment is a Black Legion detachment, this WOULD prevent Crimson Slaughter formations from being taken.

 Roknar wrote:
I'm not ignoring the fact that part of the crusade is a supplement formation. I'm saying it's irrelevant.
It's not just because it's not forbidden.

A supplement formation is a normal csm formation with an additional restriction, no more no less.
The supplements give you a blanket permission to add that restriction to any csm formation. The supplements use the word "any", that's not me paraphrasing. "Any" formation must thus include every possible formation, regardless of the presence of a larger detachment. To say otherwise would be imposing limits on the scope that simply aren't given in the supplement. So if this is giving you permission then traitor's hate would have to revoke or restrict that permission. It does not. This is where we clash.

Not just an additional restriction, additional rules. I'm not just focusing on this from a Black Legion perspective, but for all supplements, and some give benefits, not restrictions.

And if you think that this is just about "any" formation, then you are wrong. This is about being just part of a detachment. This is reviewing what it actually states and limiting it to the permission it grants, not about restrictions that do not exist.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
But it only describes doing so for a CSM detachment, not a CSM AND CS detachment.

Being a csm formation is enough. In order to apply the supplement restriction you need to ask exactly one question: Is this a csm formation? Nothing else matters, because that's what the supplements tell you to do.
This is equivalent to asking: is 1 a number? Whether or not it is an uneven or an even number makes no difference.

Oh, it does matter. Do you have permission to do this to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment? The answer is "no". You are only looking at the "CSM Detachment" and thinking, "that's enough", and ignoring the "and Crimson Slaughter Detachment" portion.

Your analogy is poor since we are looking at something that isn't as locked as a number. At best, we are looking at the difference between 1.0 and 1.3. If we are only looking at the ones value, then yes they are the same. But if we consider all of it, we'll be seeing that they are not the same.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Can a detachment be partially made up of units with rules from a supplement?

Yes. If this wasn't allowed the decurions wouldn't work because the units in the formations have extra rules and restrictions applied to them that are not from the crusade nor are they shared by other units in the crusade. A supplement formation only adds one restriction, it doesn't add any rules. It just says it is now also a supplement formation. To say you can't add a restriction would also break the normal formations, since they too add additional restrictions that the crusade does not have.

I don't think you understood the question.

The "Decurion"/Choice Detachments work because the rules that set them up state that they work. They specifically state in their rules:

Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Necron Decurion Detachment are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. If your Warlord is part of a Formation or an Army List Entry that makes up part of a Decurion Detachment, that entire Decurion Detachment is your Primary Detachment.

The picture you quoted states:

If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation.

Detachments drawn from the Black Legion may use the Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives from these pages in addition to those in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Black Legion Detachments and Formations also have the special rules shown below.

So, it is not just a restriction, it adds rules to the setup. No where does it allow you to assign this designation to just a portion of a detachment. This isn't about adding a restriction, it is about finding permission.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
But that Choice Formation is also part of a larger Detachment. It is this key point you keep seeming to forget.

When you look at the larger detachment, only some of its units are listed as being from the BL/CS supplement. Where is the rule that allows you to partially dedicate a detachment to a supplement? I am asking on behalf of the larger detachment, not the smaller one now.

...

So long as that entire Crusade Detachment are following the same supplement rules, correct. Otherwise, if you have Formation #1 as Black Legion and Formation #2 as Crimson Slaughter or just simply NOT Black Legion, then your detachment is 33% Choices Black Legion and 66% Choices not.

I'm not forgetting it, I'm saying it doesn't matter. For a crusade detachment to be legal you need 1 core and 1 auxiliary choice. A core formation with an additional restriction is still a core formation. The crusade doesn't care what the various restrictions are for the formations that make it up. It only matters if it it's a core/auxiliary choice or not.

Being functionally only 33% BL makes no difference. It would only make a difference if the supplements or traitor's hate specifically limited you by saying that any csm detachment may not consist of other types of formations. Which is a stretch since supplement formations are not different types either. There are only formations with more or less restrictions. Making it a supplement formation is only a figure of speech so to speak. It doesn't change the way the formation behaves or how the crusade treats them.

Why does it not matter? Where does it state that it does not matter? Where does it state that you can have 33% of a detachment as a Black Legion Detachment?

The Formation in question is not just a detachment alone, it is a portion of the Crusade Detachment. If it was not part of the Crusade Detachment, then this discussion would be pointless. This is not how the Crusade Detachment is treating the Formation. It is how you are taking one part of a detachment, applying some Special Rules to it (by the Black Legion supplements own statements), and leaving the rest as not. You do not have permission to treat a Choice Formation as a completely separate detachment from the Crusade without removing it as a fulfilling Choice and that Formation losing the Crusade's Command Benefits.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

And you are ignoring the point. The problem is not in the Formations themselves, the problem is when you look at the Crusade Detachment as a whole, is it a Black Legion Detachment, yes or no? Your answer is, "partially". That answer is not allowed in the rules you referenced. It is not forbidden, either, but we need to find where it is allowed.

The answer wouldn't be partially. The answer would be no, but that's not a question that is relevant in the first place.

If the answer is no, then the Black Legion supplement would have no influence on the Formation in question. This isn't a rule that is gives permission to be done partially. You may want to try and divorce the Warband from the Crusade only for the purposes of the supplement acknowledgement, but you are not given permission to do this at any point without divorcing ALL of it.

 Roknar wrote:
Then you decide to add some restrictions to some of it's formations and ask again, is it still 1+ core and 1+ aux? Yes.

And there's your problem. Where does it state that you are allowed to "add some restrictions to some of it"?

You have yet to demonstrate this point has been written as a permission.

 Roknar wrote:
The only point where this might not be legal, is, as you state, the supplement or the crusade detachment itself prohibiting you from mixing supplement formations. As I stated in the beginning, the supplement allows it, by virtue of including all formations. Traitor's hate does not change that. Since we are given permission that is neither forbidden nor limited at any point, it must be legal.

No, we are not given permission to have one portion of the detachment under the auspices of a supplement while the rest of the detachment is not under the same auspices. The supplement does not allow for it. That it can be included in any CSM Formations is not in question. That it can only be set up for one portion of the Detachment is in question, because that one formation is still part of that Detachment.

You are focusing solely on the one Formation and still ignoring/forgetting that it is still part of another detachment as well. You are ignoring/forgetting it by saying it does not matter without providing anything but your own assurance that it does not matter. Where is the permission to say it does not matter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacksmiles wrote:

If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation.

Straight from the updated Black Legion. The "or Formation" being present is what would allow having formations within the Black Crusade Detachment to have differing supplement options, without the overall Black Crusade detachment conflicting with the rule. Because it calls out formations explicitly, the overarching detachment does not become Black Legion (and thus does not disallow any Crimson Slaughter formations) by taking a core choice as a Black Legion formation.

Declaring a core choice as a Black Legion formation does not force the whole Crusade detachment into being Black Legion. However, if you were to declare that the Crusade detachment is a Black Legion detachment, this WOULD prevent Crimson Slaughter formations from being taken.

I still need to see permission for it to be "part of a detachment". You are not given permission to divorce the Warband from the Crusade for the purposes of the supplement without also divorcing the Warband from every other part of the Crusade.

Yes, it is a Formation, that is not at issue. What is at issue is that the Formation is also part of another detachment, and that is the part you both are ignoring in order to justify this position.

 Charistoph wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation.

Straight from the updated Black Legion. The "or Formation" being present is what would allow having formations within the Black Crusade Detachment to have differing supplement options, without the overall Black Crusade detachment conflicting with the rule. Because it calls out formations explicitly, the overarching detachment does not become Black Legion (and thus does not disallow any Crimson Slaughter formations) by taking a core choice as a Black Legion formation.

Declaring a core choice as a Black Legion formation does not force the whole Crusade detachment into being Black Legion. However, if you were to declare that the Crusade detachment is a Black Legion detachment, this WOULD prevent Crimson Slaughter formations from being taken.

I still need to see permission for it to be "part of a detachment". You are not given permission to divorce the Warband from the Crusade for the purposes of the supplement without also divorcing the Warband from every other part of the Crusade.

Yes, it is a Formation, that is not at issue. What is at issue is that the Formation is also part of another detachment, and that is the part you both are ignoring in order to justify this position.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm just taking the permission to treat a formation alone as a Black Legion formation and using that to allow a formation to be a Black Legion formation. Per the RAW in the supplements (this is the only faction where this can even come up right now, correct?), I don't see how it's not allowed. The permission to make a formation a BL formation is being followed, and there is nothing there about it enforcing those rules to formations outside of what you declare a BL formation. The formation is part of a larger detachment, yes, but we are given permission to make that formation BL and it doesn't state it affects the larger detachment in any way.

Nothing divorces it from the detachment after it is declared to be Black Legion, RAW.

EDIT: The way it's worded says to me "I declare this formation to be Black Legion. Zip zang zoom, it is done." I'm not seeing where you guys are saying it means everything from the detachment must entirely then become Black Legion, due to the rule saying just "Make any formation this if you want to." Any. It doesn't then put restrictions on it. That's why I see it this way.

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm not ignoring it, I'm just taking the permission to treat a formation alone as a Black Legion formation and using that to allow a formation to be a Black Legion formation. Per the RAW in the supplements (this is the only faction where this can even come up right now, correct?), I don't see how it's not allowed. The permission to make a formation a BL formation is being followed, and there is nothing there about it enforcing those rules to formations outside of what you declare a BL formation. The formation is part of a larger detachment, yes, but we are given permission to make that formation BL and it doesn't state it affects the larger detachment in any way.

Nothing divorces it from the detachment after it is declared to be Black Legion, RAW.

Yes, you are ignoring it.

Units that would be receiving Black Legion rules in a Warband Choice of a Crusade are part of two detachments, the Warband detachment and the Crusade detachment.

By placing the Black Legion only on the Warband Choice, you have one detachment that is Black Legion (the Warband), but only a part of another detachment that is Black Legion (the Crusade).

This is the equivalent of declaring the Troops of a CAD as Black Legion, but leaving the HQ, Elites, and other Roles as either default CSM or Crimson Slaughter.

Either acknowledge ALL of the detachment as being part of one supplement, or demonstrate permission to apply it to only one portion of the detachment.

 Charistoph wrote:
Oh, it does matter. Do you have permission to do this to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment? The answer is "no".

I agree, but not having permission to do it isn't the same as prohibiting it.
The supplement allows you to apply the supplement rules to a csm formation.
In so doing it allows you to make a csm & black legion formation into a cs formation, because the rule says you can apply the CS rules to a CSM formation, which it is. And no other rule prohibits this.
It's not a mixed CSM & BL formation, it's a CSM formation. It is also a BL formation. It's both simultaneously, not a new third version.
You don't need further permission than that, because you already have permission. You can only do things that you have permission to do and the supplement gives you this permission.

It's the same for the crusade detachment. So what if only part of it is a BL formation?
You are given express permission to apply the supplement rules to a formation. You don't need to be given further permission to apply the rules to part of a detachment.
There is nothing to indicate that the warband within a crusade does not count as a formation. The supplements allows you to apply the rules to a formation because they say so. That's all the permission you need. You're just doing as it says.

There are no rules that prohibit having part of a crusade detachment consist of formations with extra rules.
Yes, you don't have explicit permission to go and add rules to part of a crusade. Instead you have permission to take any formation you want and apply the supplement rules.
This results in a crusade detachment with formations from different supplements, but that is not actually prohibited anywhere.

This isn't about not breaking any rules. When you follow the rules as written you end up with a crusade detachment that has mixed supplements. At no point are you doing more than you are permitted to do.
And you end up with a list that does not break any rules.

Being part of a crusade doesn't matter because there are no rules that say it matters. There are however rules that say you can apply the supplement rules to certain formations.
Is it a csm formation? Then go ahead and apply your supplement rules. So now you have a unit that both may and must take VotLW? Fine, it can do that, since taking VotLW or not are both allowed in a csm formation.

Charistoph,

If the words "Detachment or" were removed from the Black Legion rules such that they only mentioned Formations, would you then allow a single Chaos Warband inside a Black Crusade Detachment to be Black Legion?

Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Oh, it does matter. Do you have permission to do this to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment? The answer is "no".

I agree, but not having permission to do it isn't the same as prohibiting it.
The supplement allows you to apply the supplement rules to a csm formation.
In so doing it allows you to make a csm & black legion formation into a cs formation, because the rule says you can apply the CS rules to a CSM formation, which it is. And no other rule prohibits this.
It's not a mixed CSM & BL formation, it's a CSM formation. It is also a BL formation. It's both simultaneously, not a new third version.
You don't need further permission than that, because you already have permission. You can only do things that you have permission to do and the supplement gives you this permission.

Which leads to being the "it doesn't say I can't" argument.

Roknar wrote:It's the same for the crusade detachment. So what if only part of it is a BL formation?
You are given express permission to apply the supplement rules to a formation. You don't need to be given further permission to apply the rules to part of a detachment.
There is nothing to indicate that the warband within a crusade does not count as a formation. The supplements allows you to apply the rules to a formation because they say so. That's all the permission you need. You're just doing as it says.

Again, the issue is not with the Formation, it is with the whole detachment. Pay attention.

Permission is needed to grant it to part of a detachment. By only applying it to one Choice, you are only applying it to only part of a detachment. You do not have permission to separate the formation from the detachment for any purposes.

Roknar wrote:There are no rules that prohibit having part of a crusade detachment consist of formations with extra rules.

True, so long as they are the Special Rules of that Formation. The Supplement rules are not of that Formation.

Roknar wrote:Yes, you don't have explicit permission to go and add rules to part of a crusade. Instead you have permission to take any formation you want and apply the supplement rules.

You are contradicting yourself then. You say you don't have permission to do something, but the state you have permission to do something. This does not work so long as the Warband Formation is tied to the Crusade Detachment.

Roknar wrote:This isn't about not breaking any rules. When you follow the rules as written you end up with a crusade detachment that has mixed supplements. At no point are you doing more than you are permitted to do.
And you end up with a list that does not break any rules.

When going by House Rules, correct. However, when going by the Rules Written by GW, there is no permission to grant use of a supplement to only part of a detachment. By applying a supplement to a portion of the Crusade Detachment, you are doing more than you are permitted to do.

Roknar wrote:Being part of a crusade doesn't matter because there are no rules that say it matters. There are however rules that say you can apply the supplement rules to certain formations.
Is it a csm formation? Then go ahead and apply your supplement rules. So now you have a unit that both may and must take VotLW? Fine, it can do that, since taking VotLW or not are both allowed in a csm formation

And you completely missed the point. Being part of the Crusade matters because it is a detachment. By applying the supplement to just one Warband, the Crusade Detachment is set up as only being partially dedicated to the supplement. Something you do not have permission to do.

Cal Hoskins wrote:Charistoph,

If the words "Detachment or" were removed from the Black Legion rules such that they only mentioned Formations, would you then allow a single Chaos Warband inside a Black Crusade Detachment to be Black Legion?

Possibly, but that has not been brought up, as it? "Detachment" is not removed from the qualifications.

CHaristoph, I believe the issue is that the Warband is still a Formation, despite being part of a Detachment, and as such fulfills the requirement of Detachment or Formation.

However, I don't think it was intended to affect only part of a multi-formation detachment, and suspect it is meant to apply to Detachments/Formations as a whole. If you understand what I am trying to say.

The trouble is that it's typical GW writing.

Happyjew, what you said makes perfect sense, but I see that as distinctly RAI. The supplements don't actually take into account detachments made up of formations, RAW.

Charistoph, I do see what you mean about ignoring that it makes part of a detachment BL while part of it is not. However, I still disagree with you that it's not allowed. I'm at work so responding to each point in a multi-quote is tough, but here's another point:

"Detachment" doesn't HAVE to be removed from the qualifications. Saying "or" means one or the other. By making a formation BL we are following RAW. Obviously this is agreed on.

Whether or not a formation within a Decurion-style detachment can use a supplement while others do not is the dispute. You ask where we get permission to do so. We are pointing at "or formation." We have permission to make any formation Black Legion. This is 100% true. What we needed was GW to tell us how this interacts with a detachment that is filled up with formations, but they didn't. It's a permissive rule set, and sure, maybe my argument is "It doesn't say I can't" to you, but to me, my argument is "It says I can."

It says I can make this formation BL.

Sitting here thinking it more as I type this response, I do believe RAI it's meant to apply to whatever the highest level detachment is (if wording it that makes sense), but as written? It's worded in such a way that I wouldn't argue with anyone at the store over it.

The conversation I had with myself in my head:
A. "I make this formation BL, but not the Crusade detachment."
B. "Then the Crusade detachment is partially BL, there's no permission for partial."
A. "That doesn't matter, I have permission to make the formation BL regardless."
B. "True, but then I actually DO have a partial BL detachment, still, which doesn't make much sense because how is a detachment partially BL?"
A. "Doesn't matter, all that matters is that I made this formation BL, which follows the permission granted."

Maybe Side A in my brain is just being stubborn, but it really looks like it's right to me currently. I'm gonna wait for GW to weigh in on it now, because that "or" really hangs me up. Considering formations ARE detachments, there's no need for an "or formation" in the statement.

Perhaps I should have elaborated. I did not contradict myself.
I'm saying there are two ways to apply the supplement rules in a crusade formation.
One would be to make part of a crusade detachment a supplement formation. You don't have permission to do this.
The other is to apply the rules directly to a csm formation. You have permission to do this.

When that formation happens to be part of a crusade detachment, the end result is the same, but you are reaching it in a different manner.
Do you agree that end result is not in dispute, only how you get there?

Happyjew wrote:CHaristoph, I believe the issue is that the Warband is still a Formation, despite being part of a Detachment, and as such fulfills the requirement of Detachment or Formation.

However, I don't think it was intended to affect only part of a multi-formation detachment, and suspect it is meant to apply to Detachments/Formations as a whole. If you understand what I am trying to say.

That's actually what I have been saying. It does not state that it can only affect part of a detachment, so we cannot apply it to only part of a detachment.

Yes, Roknar is trying to apply it to only the Formation part of it, but in order to do so, you have to ignore the fact that Formation is also part of another Detachment, and we do not have permission to make this declaration to only a portion of a detachment.

To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

Jacksmiles wrote:Happyjew, what you said makes perfect sense, but I see that as distinctly RAI. The supplements don't actually take into account detachments made up of formations, RAW.

It does and it doesn't. It recognizes Detachments and Formations. It just doesn't allow for just portions of the Choice Detachments that are Formations to be separated out from a Detachment for this purpose any more than Chapter Tactics does.

Jacksmiles wrote:Charistoph, I do see what you mean about ignoring that it makes part of a detachment BL while part of it is not. However, I still disagree with you that it's not allowed. I'm at work so responding to each point in a multi-quote is tough, but here's another point:

"Detachment" doesn't HAVE to be removed from the qualifications. Saying "or" means one or the other. By making a formation BL we are following RAW. Obviously this is agreed on.

Whether or not a formation within a Decurion-style detachment can use a supplement while others do not is the dispute. You ask where we get permission to do so. We are pointing at "or formation." We have permission to make any formation Black Legion. This is 100% true. What we needed was GW to tell us how this interacts with a detachment that is filled up with formations, but they didn't. It's a permissive rule set, and sure, maybe my argument is "It doesn't say I can't" to you, but to me, my argument is "It says I can."

It says I can make this formation BL.

Which then makes only a portion of the Crusade, BL. Where is the permission to do that? Permission to do it to a Formation is insufficient for being able to ignore it for the other detachment that it is connected to.

Jacksmiles wrote:Sitting here thinking it more as I type this response, I do believe RAI it's meant to apply to whatever the highest level detachment is (if wording it that makes sense), but as written? It's worded in such a way that I wouldn't argue with anyone at the store over it.

The conversation I had with myself in my head:
A. "I make this formation BL, but not the Crusade detachment."
B. "Then the Crusade detachment is partially BL, there's no permission for partial."
A. "That doesn't matter, I have permission to make the formation BL regardless."
B. "True, but then I actually DO have a partial BL detachment, still, which doesn't make much sense because how is a detachment partially BL?"
A. "Doesn't matter, all that matters is that I made this formation BL, which follows the permission granted."

Maybe Side A in my brain is just being stubborn, but it really looks like it's right to me currently. I'm gonna wait for GW to weigh in on it now, because that "or" really hangs me up. Considering formations ARE detachments, there's no need for an "or formation" in the statement.

The problem is, and I've said this many times, "Where does it state this does not matter?" This is a decision that you all are making without anything written to support this. Just because it is allowed for a Formation does not mean we get to ignore it when that Formation is part of a larger detachment.

Roknar wrote:Perhaps I should have elaborated. I did not contradict myself.
I'm saying there are two ways to apply the supplement rules in a crusade formation.
One would be to make part of a crusade detachment a supplement formation. You don't have permission to do this.
The other is to apply the rules directly to a csm formation. You have permission to do this.

When that formation happens to be part of a crusade detachment, the end result is the same, but you are reaching it in a different manner.
Do you agree that end result is not in dispute, only how you get there?

Not quite. You have already noted you do not have permission to do it one way, you don't get to bypass it by coming at it from a different direction because by doing so you do the very thing you state is not permitted in the first sentence comes to pass.

If the Formation was operating on its own, this would not be an issue, but it is not, it is part of another detachment. As soon as you apply the supplement's rules to that formation you are immediately applying it to only a part of the larger detachment. You must either disengage the supplement's rules from the Formation or apply it to all of the Crusade Detachment in order to comply with the standard you have already recognized. There is zero wiggle room in this without completely disconnecting the Warband from the Crusade. As soon as you disconnect one part of it, it all must be disconnected. We do not have permission to do things part way here.

 Charistoph wrote:

"Which then makes only a portion of the Crusade, BL. Where is the permission to do that? Permission to do it to a Formation is insufficient for being able to ignore it for the other detachment that it is connected to. "

"Not quite. You have already noted you do not have permission to do it one way, you don't get to bypass it by coming at it from a different direction because by doing so you do the very thing you state is not permitted in the first sentence comes to pass. "

That's exactly my point though. The supplement gives you permission to apply it to a formation. You can't ignore that. Even if it is part of a crusade it is still a formation.
It works because while it is not permitted in the first sentence is not prohibited either. It's simply not covered in the rules at all, because they somehow managed to neglect that possibility when they updated the supplements.

To say you can't apply the supplement rule because it is part of a detachment is also to say it isn't a formation anymore. It would be a different concept, like a battlefield role but not.
As far as the rules go however, the only sensible thing (for me anyway) is to say that a formation that is part of a detachment is still also a formation and thus all rules that apply to them must also apply here. That then also includes the supplement.

It might be weird but in the same way you can't ignore that the formation is part of a detachment, likewise, you can't ignore that the only condition the supplement rules state is that it must be a formation or detachment.
Unless you say that such a formation does not count as a formation, then you can apply the supplement rules because they give you permission to do this. And since the there are no rules governing how formations in a detachment differ from a normal formation one way or another, there is no basis to say that this becomes an illegal configuration.

As I understand it you shoot with each Terminator unit in the Terminator Annihilation Force as soon as they land, so you:

1. Deploy a unit
2. Roll for scatter, scatter
3. Shoot at declared target
4. Repeat at 1 until you run out of units from formation arriving from Deep Strike

It's worth noting that the Terminator Annihilation Force gains Hatred against whatever the current target might be. Adds an extra little oomph against Non-Imperial targets, so it can be handy to acquire a new target that you might want to charge after the drop on the first turn.

Spawn come with Fear.

Heldrakes can find pinned units in the Movement phase in several ways. The first is from passenger units deploying from wrecked or exploded vehicles. These vehicles can be wrecked or exploded via Vector Strikes, Ramming, and the aforementioned Terminator Annihilation Force's shooting upon deployment. Units can also be forced to fall back via Tank Shock.

Units can be forced to fall back if they fail a morale check from 25% casualties in the movement phase, but that happens at the end of the phase after everything has already done vector strikes and the like. Still, if they're falling back in the Psychic Phase and the Shooting Phase, they'll automatically fail another morale check and fall back another 2-3D6".

 Roknar wrote:
That's exactly my point though. The supplement gives you permission to apply it to a formation. You can't ignore that. Even if it is part of a crusade it is still a formation.
It works because while it is not permitted in the first sentence is not prohibited either. It's simply not covered in the rules at all, because they somehow managed to neglect that possibility when they updated the supplements.

But by doing so you you are performing an action in which you do not have permission to perform.

 Roknar wrote:
To say you can't apply the supplement rule because it is part of a detachment is also to say it isn't a formation anymore. It would be a different concept, like a battlefield role but not.
As far as the rules go however, the only sensible thing (for me anyway) is to say that a formation that is part of a detachment is still also a formation and thus all rules that apply to them must also apply here. That then also includes the supplement.

Incorrect. I am not saying that it isn't a Formation. I am saying that it is not just a Formation. It is not standing alone. We are not talking about just one detachment, but two in the same "area" of the army. You cannot do something to the Warband without it affecting the Crusade in some way. That is the distinction you are ignoring for no reason but your own satisfaction.

 Roknar wrote:
It might be weird but in the same way you can't ignore that the formation is part of a detachment, likewise, you can't ignore that the only condition the supplement rules state is that it must be a formation or detachment.
Unless you say that such a formation does not count as a formation, then you can apply the supplement rules because they give you permission to do this. And since the there are no rules governing how formations in a detachment differ from a normal formation one way or another, there is no basis to say that this becomes an illegal configuration.

There are rules that govern how a formation in a detachment differ from a normal formation, and I quoted you one.

Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Gladius Strike Force are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. If your Warlord is part of a Formation or an Army List Entry that makes up part of a Gladius Strike Force, that entire Gladius Strike Force is your Primary Detachment.

Unless the Crusade is missing a paragraph like this in the rules that set it up, you do not have a case because you are ignoring it. If it is missing this paragraph, then it is not is not capable of having the full power of these Choice Detachments.

The only action you're performing - formation X is CS - is one explicitly allowed. You arevNOT saying "the rest aren't CS", you are making no declaration at all.

 Charistoph wrote:
To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

The reason you can't do that is because both the rules for Chapter Tactics and the Gladius Strike Force itself tell you that you can't. The Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and Black Crusade rules do not list a similar restriction.

Being able to apply the supplement rules hinges on whether or not a formation in a crusade detachment is a formation or something else.
If it is a formation (of any sort) you can use the supplement rules. If it's something else, then you can't.
I am convinced that it is a formation, you aren't. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

This is similar to a rule targeting a character. An independent character is more than a character, but that doesn't matter.
You are told to target a character and an independent character is still a character and thus you can target the IC.
You don't need extra/double permission to be able to target a character that is infantry or jump or whatever. You only need permission once to target a character.
As far as I'm concerned a formation inside a detachment is still a formation. No matter what else it might be.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The only action you're performing - formation X is CS - is one explicitly allowed. You arevNOT saying "the rest aren't CS", you are making no declaration at all.

But by not declaring the rest of the detachment as CS/BL, you are declaring them as NOT that.

To go back to it, where does it state that you can only declare part of a detachment. You cannot.

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

The reason you can't do that is because both the rules for Chapter Tactics and the Gladius Strike Force itself tell you that you can't. The Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and Black Crusade rules do not list a similar restriction.

What is the difference in standards? You declare this for a detachment (not part of a detachment) with the Supplements. With Chapter Tactics, its all models from a detachment or Formation.

I am considering the exact same standards that Roknar is using to make this statement. I am only considering the Formations individually with this set up of Chapter Tactics. This is perfectly legal according to him.

Roknar wrote:Being able to apply the supplement rules hinges on whether or not a formation in a crusade detachment is a formation or something else.
If it is a formation (of any sort) you can use the supplement rules. If it's something else, then you can't.
I am convinced that it is a formation, you aren't. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

It can be something else, though. It can be a detachment. And the rules YOU quoted stated that it is for a detachment as well. What you have yet to present is that it can be applied to only part of a detachment. It doesn't matter if part of that detachment is a detachment all its own, you haven't been given permission to separate that Formation from the Detachment for this consideration.

Roknar wrote:This is similar to a rule targeting a character. An independent character is more than a character, but that doesn't matter.
You are told to target a character and an independent character is still a character and thus you can target the IC.
You don't need extra/double permission to be able to target a character that is infantry or jump or whatever. You only need permission once to target a character.
As far as I'm concerned a formation inside a detachment is still a formation. No matter what else it might be.

You rather state my point here. I am saying that you cannot disassociate one part of a detachment from the other any more than you can separate the Character Unit Type from a model with the Independent Character Rule.

In addition, you continue to ignore what I have stated several times now. The fact that the Warband Formation is its own detachment is not question. It is the fact that it is part of another detachment that you are ignoring for convenience. You do not get to ignore this factor any more than the Character's special rules for an Independent Character.

You seem to have misread what I wrote.
I didn't dismiss the possibility that they are something else.
Using a formation as part of another detachment creates three possible scenarios.
Either a formation remains a formation no different from a stand alone formation, either it becomes a formation + something, or it becomes something else entirely.

The supplements provide no exception or limitation to their scope. Thus the first two options would allow you to apply the rules. More on that later.
Option three prevents their use, but option three does a lot more than that.

Traitor's hate says a crusade has formations and army list entries instead of battlefield roles.
Units are part of the crusade and part of the various formations.
That is all we know.

Option three isn't explained in the rules anywhere. This also means that the whole decurion concept falls apart because it's never explained how to handle such a thing. If they're not formations, then how do you use them? The BRB only explains how to use formations, detachments and army list entries.
Traitor's hate only mentions formations. That's good enough for me to assume that the choice formations are formations and follow all their rules.

Targeting a formation within a detachment is of a smaller scope than the permission to target any formation.
The permission to apply the rules to *any* formation includes, by definition, standalone formations, formations within detachments, formations +1, formations within formations and whatever other future kind of formation there ever will be.
Therefore you don't need to specifically include the notion of applying the supplement rules to a crusade choice formation. It is implicit. Assuming of course that such a formation does indeed count as a formation. And I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.

So I have to disagree with "you haven't been given permission to separate that Formation from the Detachment for this consideration." Like I just said, *any* formation (or detachment , as you noted) includes the crusade choice formations provided you consider them formations. Which I do, as per option one or two.

 Charistoph wrote:
But by not declaring the rest of the detachment as CS/BL, you are declaring them as NOT that.

This is not true. It is neither consequence nor an action you do.
The two declarations are not linked. You are saying this entire warband is BL/CS. No more, no less.
In order for that to declare the others not BL/CS you would need some kind of restriction like the old supplements had, that said you can only use the rules of one supplement.
That's not the case here.

 Roknar wrote:
You seem to have misread what I wrote.
I didn't dismiss the possibility that they are something else.
Using a formation as part of another detachment creates three possible scenarios.
Either a formation remains a formation no different from a stand alone formation, either it becomes a formation + something, or it becomes something else entirely.

And the Choice Detachments specifically state that they become a Formation + part of another Detachment. In a way, it IS something else because normally a unit can only be part of one detachment, yet these are part of two.

 Roknar wrote:
The supplements provide no exception or limitation to their scope. Thus the first two options would allow you to apply the rules. More on that later.
Option three prevents their use, but option three does a lot more than that.

You've already agreed that there is a limit, but it is one that is provided by lack of permission. That limit being, you do not have permission to apply this to only part of a detachment.

 Roknar wrote:
Traitor's hate says a crusade has formations and army list entries instead of battlefield roles.
Units are part of the crusade and part of the various formations.
That is all we know.

Really? It doesn't state that the units are part of both detachments? That would be new and cause a couple problems.

 Roknar wrote:
Option three isn't explained in the rules anywhere. This also means that the whole decurion concept falls apart because it's never explained how to handle such a thing. If they're not formations, then how do you use them? The BRB only explains how to use formations, detachments and army list entries.
Traitor's hate only mentions formations. That's good enough for me to assume that the choice formations are formations and follow all their rules.

Then I think you missed something or you are misrepresenting.

Is the Crusade a Detachment made by the collection of Formations and specific lists of units selected by the type of Choice they are listed as?

If yes, then you select the Crusade Detachment and then select the Formations to make up its Core Choice(s) and add Command and Auxiliary Choices as points, models, and desire fit. You are proposing to then make part of that Detachment Black Legion. This is the same as taking a Combined Arms Detachment and effectively declaring a Troops Selection as Black Legion, in terms of a partial dedication.

If not, then you have been misrepresenting the Crusade throughout all these posts.

 Roknar wrote:
Targeting a formation within a detachment is of a smaller scope than the permission to target any formation.
The permission to apply the rules to *any* formation includes, by definition, standalone formations, formations within detachments, formations +1, formations within formations and whatever other future kind of formation there ever will be.
Therefore you don't need to specifically include the notion of applying the supplement rules to a crusade choice formation. It is implicit. Assuming of course that such a formation does indeed count as a formation. And I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.

I disagree. You need permission to add it partially to a Detachment in order for it to work, especially since you have to select the Detachment in question before selecting the Formation in question. This supplement was brought up to date in the last few months, correct? This type of Detachment has been around for years now, so those things would (should) be in consideration. It's not like the Blood Angels situation, after all.

This Warband we are speaking of is not just a Formation, but part of a larger Detachment. Would you let someone get away with doing that with Chapter Tactics in a Gladius Strike Force? The standards are exactly the same.

 Roknar wrote:
So I have to disagree with "you haven't been given permission to separate that Formation from the Detachment for this consideration." Like I just said, *any* formation (or detachment , as you noted) includes the crusade choice formations provided you consider them formations. Which I do, as per option one or two.

Then you do not even consider what I am saying. You do not see the Warband Formation as part of another Detachment, or you consider it being added to the Detachment happens later.

This Formation is both its own detachment, as well as being part of another. If you do not have permission to apply it to just part of a Detachment, you are fine when looking at it from just the Formation, but you fail when you are looking at it from the perspective of the Detachment.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
But by not declaring the rest of the detachment as CS/BL, you are declaring them as NOT that.

This is not true. It is neither consequence nor an action you do.
The two declarations are not linked. You are saying this entire warband is BL/CS. No more, no less.
In order for that to declare the others not BL/CS you would need some kind of restriction like the old supplements had, that said you can only use the rules of one supplement.
That's not the case here.

There is a consequence. Those other units/models will not be benefiting/restricted by those supplemental rules. As an opposing player I would need to know which are and which are not Black Legion Chaos Space Marines, Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marines, or Chaos Space Marines. Technically, you are making those declarations in your army build.

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

The reason you can't do that is because both the rules for Chapter Tactics and the Gladius Strike Force itself tell you that you can't. The Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and Black Crusade rules do not list a similar restriction.

What is the difference in standards? You declare this for a detachment (not part of a detachment) with the Supplements. With Chapter Tactics, its all models from a detachment or Formation.

The difference is this: Chapter Tactics are assigned on a per unit basis and limited to a single Chapter Tactic per Detachment/Formation. Chaos Supplement rules are assigned on a per Formation/Detachment basis and lack any kind of limit to mixing.

The Chapter Tactics rules include "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter" and the Gladius Strike Force Rules include "All units in the Detachment must have the Space Marines Faction and must be drawn from the same Chapter". See how those both include the words "all" and "must"? The Chaos Supplement rules lack any kind of similar wording.

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

The reason you can't do that is because both the rules for Chapter Tactics and the Gladius Strike Force itself tell you that you can't. The Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and Black Crusade rules do not list a similar restriction.

What is the difference in standards? You declare this for a detachment (not part of a detachment) with the Supplements. With Chapter Tactics, its all models from a detachment or Formation.

The difference is this: Chapter Tactics are assigned on a per unit basis and limited to a single Chapter Tactic per Detachment/Formation. Chaos Supplement rules are assigned on a per Formation/Detachment basis and lack any kind of limit to mixing.

The Chapter Tactics rules include "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter" and the Gladius Strike Force Rules include "All units in the Detachment must have the Space Marines Faction and must be drawn from the same Chapter". See how those both include the words "all" and "must"? The Chaos Supplement rules lack any kind of similar wording.

The Chapter Tactic Rule is assigned on a per unit basis. The specific form of Chapter Tactic is assigned to the detachment, no partials are permitted.

Moving from there, the Demi-Company is its own Formation Detachment, and that is sufficient for Roknar's consideration.

He is ignoring the fact that there is another detachment involved in the situation and we do not have permission to assign this supplement to only part of the detachment any more than we can assign the specific form of Chapter Tactic to just part of the Gladius Strike Force.

 Charistoph wrote:

He is ignoring the fact that there is another detachment involved in the situation and we do not have permission to assign this supplement to only part of the detachment any more than we can assign the specific form of Chapter Tactic to just part of the Gladius Strike Force.

The problem is, though, that there is permission to use it with a formation, and that permission did not distinguish between a formation that stands by itself or a formation that is included as part of a detachment. Since there is permission to use it in a formation, in order to not be able to use that formation in a detachment there would need to be something specific that would negate that permission (the case of trying to stick a formation or a model/unit in a formation that has VotLW into a detachment that doesn't let you have that, using a pertinent example here). If the detachment in that case is a general CSM one, and one sticks in a formation with units with VotLW, and another formation using a supplement prohibiting models in that formation from having VotLW, that would be legal from RAW as 1) there is no restriction on only one supplement per detachment with the newest vestions of the supplements and 2) you already have permission to use the supplements on formations, and do not have anything specific prohibiting that permission. It might not be what GW intends (and certainly wasn't with the earlier versions of the supplements, but with the changes with the updates for these their thinking may have changed), but it's still covered by RAW. It would be a good thing for them to cover in a FAQ for the Traitor's Hate supplement.

 doctortom wrote:
The problem is, though, that there is permission to use it with a formation, and that permission did not distinguish between a formation that stands by itself or a formation that is included as part of a detachment. Since there is permission to use it in a formation, in order to not be able to use that formation in a detachment there would need to be something specific that would negate that permission (the case of trying to stick a formation or a model/unit in a formation that has VotLW into a detachment that doesn't let you have that, using a pertinent example here). If the detachment in that case is a general CSM one, and one sticks in a formation with units with VotLW, and another formation using a supplement prohibiting models in that formation from having VotLW, that would be legal from RAW as 1) there is no restriction on only one supplement per detachment with the newest vestions of the supplements and 2) you already have permission to use the supplements on formations, and do not have anything specific prohibiting that permission. It might not be what GW intends (and certainly wasn't with the earlier versions of the supplements, but with the changes with the updates for these their thinking may have changed), but it's still covered by RAW. It would be a good thing for them to cover in a FAQ for the Traitor's Hate supplement.

1) You have permission to apply the supplement to one type of an army's detachment, but if that army is also another type of army, you don't not have permission to apply it to that. I cannot apply the Black Legion Supplement to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment. True or False?

2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

3) The Crusade is a Detachment. True or False?

4) In this example, the Warband is a Formation Choice purchased as part of the Crusade Detachment. True or False?

5) The Supplement does not permit the ability to separate the Warband Formation Choice from the Crusade Detachment it was chosen to be a part of, for any reason. True or False?

These are the questions I keep asking, and all I get is "True, but it doesn't matter" with no rules to support the "it doesn't matter".

 Charistoph wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
The problem is, though, that there is permission to use it with a formation, and that permission did not distinguish between a formation that stands by itself or a formation that is included as part of a detachment. Since there is permission to use it in a formation, in order to not be able to use that formation in a detachment there would need to be something specific that would negate that permission (the case of trying to stick a formation or a model/unit in a formation that has VotLW into a detachment that doesn't let you have that, using a pertinent example here). If the detachment in that case is a general CSM one, and one sticks in a formation with units with VotLW, and another formation using a supplement prohibiting models in that formation from having VotLW, that would be legal from RAW as 1) there is no restriction on only one supplement per detachment with the newest vestions of the supplements and 2) you already have permission to use the supplements on formations, and do not have anything specific prohibiting that permission. It might not be what GW intends (and certainly wasn't with the earlier versions of the supplements, but with the changes with the updates for these their thinking may have changed), but it's still covered by RAW. It would be a good thing for them to cover in a FAQ for the Traitor's Hate supplement.

1) You have permission to apply the supplement to one type of an army's detachment, but if that army is also another type of army, you don't not have permission to apply it to that. I cannot apply the Black Legion Supplement to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment. True or False?

True, if the detachment is already defined as being one subfaction/supplement, you can't apply the other. That is not what I described as being something allowed, however, I described something different.

 Charistoph wrote:
2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

False. If the detachment is one made up of formations, you DO have permission to applly a supplement to individual formations, provided there is no limitations from the detachment itself to prevent it. Another supplement being applied to the detachment (as you have in post #1) is such a limitation. If the detachment is merely a vanilla CSM detachment, however, you could have one formation be a Black Legion formation 9if it meets requiements) and one being a Crimson Slaughter formation (providing it meets requirements). It would have to be a vanilla CSM detachment that is made up of formations, however. (This could be extended to other armies if you had a vanilla decurion type detachment made up of different formations, and two supplements that you could apply to formations therein).

 Charistoph wrote:
These are the questions I keep asking, and all I get is "True, but it doesn't matter" with no rules to support the "it doesn't matter".

You can't do it to a formation in a detachment that already has a supplement applied to it, You don't have a rule permitting replacing a supplement for part of a detachment with another supplement. I'm not arguing that you can do it for a detachment of formations from a supplement though. As I said, however, if it's a vanilla detachment made up of formations, as long as a supplement is not applied to the detachment as a whole, you can apply different supplements to different formations within it as long as you meet the requirements for those supplements and there isn't a specific limitation for the detachment itself.

 doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

False. If the detachment is one made up of formations, you DO have permission to applly a supplement to individual formations, provided there is no limitations from the detachment itself to prevent it. Another supplement being applied to the detachment (as you have in post #1) is such a limitation. If the detachment is merely a vanilla CSM detachment, however, you could have one formation be a Black Legion formation 9if it meets requiements) and one being a Crimson Slaughter formation (providing it meets requirements). It would have to be a vanilla CSM detachment that is made up of formations, however. (This could be extended to other armies if you had a vanilla decurion type detachment made up of different formations, and two supplements that you could apply to formations therein).

You answered the question with an answer of what you wanted to hear and not the question itself.

Where does it state you can do this to only part of a detachment? The fact that this part is also a detachment of its own is irrelevant unless you can satisfy the permission for both detachments.

Where does it state permission to separate the detachment in to parts like this?

 Charistoph wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

False. If the detachment is one made up of formations, you DO have permission to applly a supplement to individual formations, provided there is no limitations from the detachment itself to prevent it. Another supplement being applied to the detachment (as you have in post #1) is such a limitation. If the detachment is merely a vanilla CSM detachment, however, you could have one formation be a Black Legion formation 9if it meets requiements) and one being a Crimson Slaughter formation (providing it meets requirements). It would have to be a vanilla CSM detachment that is made up of formations, however. (This could be extended to other armies if you had a vanilla decurion type detachment made up of different formations, and two supplements that you could apply to formations therein).

You answered the question with an answer of what you wanted to hear and not the question itself.

Where does it state you can do this to only part of a detachment? The fact that this part is also a detachment of its own is irrelevant unless you can satisfy the permission for both detachments.

Where does it state permission to separate the detachment in to parts like this?

It states that you can do it to a detachment or a formation. If a detachment is made up of formations, you have permission to do it to a formation in the detachment because you have permission to do it to a formation. You have to show that there is some restriction to revoke the permission to apply it to a formation. That the formation is part of a detachment is relevant only in that there might be something with the detachment that will give reason to prohibit the permission. The mere fact that the formation is also part of a detachment is not reason in and of itself to prohibit being able to apply the supplement to a formation.

Your turn, where does it state that being part of a detachment automatically override the permission to apply the supplement to a formation if the supplement states it may be applied to a detachment or a formation? You already have permission to apply it to a formation in that case, and saying"detachment or formation" is not in and of itself a prohibition on applying it to a formation.

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

The difference is this: Chapter Tactics are assigned on a per unit basis and limited to a single Chapter Tactic per Detachment/Formation. Chaos Supplement rules are assigned on a per Formation/Detachment basis and lack any kind of limit to mixing.

The Chapter Tactics rules include "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter" and the Gladius Strike Force Rules include "All units in the Detachment must have the Space Marines Faction and must be drawn from the same Chapter". See how those both include the words "all" and "must"? The Chaos Supplement rules lack any kind of similar wording.

The Chapter Tactic Rule is assigned on a per unit basis. The specific form of Chapter Tactic is assigned to the detachment, no partials are permitted.

This is simply incorrect. This is directly from the Chapter Tactics rules: "When choosing an army, you must make a note of which Chapter each unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule is drawn from." If Chapter Tactics were decided only when a group of units were placed inside a Detachment/Formation then you could never have any Iron Hands (or whatever) in an Unbound Army where they are completely outside any Detachment/Formation.

The rules go on to say "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter." Without this sentence nothing would prevent Ultramarines and Raven Guard from being in the same Detachment/Formation.

The Black Legion supplement says "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation." It has no further requirements or limitations.

Chapter Tactics summary: Pick a unit, assign it a Chapter. Don't put different Chapters in the same Detachment/Formation.
Black Legion summary: Pick a Detachment/Formation, assign it Black Legion rules. <See how there is no equivalent rule here?>

On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

To tackle this from another angle, would you say that the various Deathwatch Kill Team Doctrines (for example, Aquila Doctrine: Non-Vehicle model from this Formation can re-roll any To Wound rolls and armour penetration rolls of 1.) apply to the Leader of a Strategium Command Team?

 Charistoph wrote:

1) You have permission to apply the supplement to one type of an army's detachment, but if that army is also another type of army, you don't not have permission to apply it to that. I cannot apply the Black Legion Supplement to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment. True or False?

2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

3) The Crusade is a Detachment. True or False?

4) In this example, the Warband is a Formation Choice purchased as part of the Crusade Detachment. True or False?

5) The Supplement does not permit the ability to separate the Warband Formation Choice from the Crusade Detachment it was chosen to be a part of, for any reason. True or False?

These are the questions I keep asking, and all I get is "True, but it doesn't matter" with no rules to support the "it doesn't matter".

There is only one pertinant question to ask.
To quote Cal Hoskins: "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."

This is the rule we are applying. Read what it says. Don't add any meaning or rules to it. Just read it as is and I'm not being condescending here.
It has a single condition. It asks a single very specific question.
Is this formation a csm formation? (or alternatively: is this detachment a csm detachment?, depending on what you're using it on.)

The answer to that question is either yes or no.
Answering it with yes means you may apply the rules as per the supplement rules.

You are being asked what type of construct the warband is. Such a question is unconcerned about the location of it. That has nothing to do with 40k.
That's why it doesn't matter whether or not the warband is part of a detachment.
The question does't care and once you answer it with yes, you are given explicit permission to apply the rules to that same formation.
Once again, the rule tells you to apply the supplement rules to that specific formation.
It doesn't give you a limited scope to work with. It tells you to do it, no ifs or buts.

By focusing on where the formations is, rather than what it is, you are looking for an answer in the wrong place.
Does that answer why "it doesn't matter" ?

doctortom wrote:It states that you can do it to a detachment or a formation. If a detachment is made up of formations, you have permission to do it to a formation in the detachment because you have permission to do it to a formation. You have to show that there is some restriction to revoke the permission to apply it to a formation. That the formation is part of a detachment is relevant only in that there might be something with the detachment that will give reason to prohibit the permission. The mere fact that the formation is also part of a detachment is not reason in and of itself to prohibit being able to apply the supplement to a formation.

Your turn, where does it state that being part of a detachment automatically override the permission to apply the supplement to a formation if the supplement states it may be applied to a detachment or a formation? You already have permission to apply it to a formation in that case, and saying"detachment or formation" is not in and of itself a prohibition on applying it to a formation.

And the Detachment is chosen first, not the Formation. Where can we then assign it to just part of the Detachment? Just because it is a Formation itself? How is that satisfied for the whole detachment itself, then? That is the reason for that question.

I cannot, in good conscience, separate that Formation from being part of the whole detachment.

Cal Hoskins wrote:This is simply incorrect. This is directly from the Chapter Tactics rules: "When choosing an army, you must make a note of which Chapter each unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule is drawn from." If Chapter Tactics were decided only when a group of units were placed inside a Detachment/Formation then you could never have any Iron Hands (or whatever) in an Unbound Army where they are completely outside any Detachment/Formation.

The rules go on to say "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter." Without this sentence nothing would prevent Ultramarines and Raven Guard from being in the same Detachment/Formation.

And this second part is what assigns it at the detachment level. I'm sorry you didn't understand what I meant by that.

And it is considering it from the detachment level, not a unit level, just like the supplement does.

Cal Hoskins wrote:The Black Legion supplement says "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation." It has no further requirements or limitations.

Chapter Tactics summary: Pick a unit, assign it a Chapter. Don't put different Chapters in the same Detachment/Formation.
Black Legion summary: Pick a Detachment/Formation, assign it Black Legion rules. <See how there is no equivalent rule here?>

No. I don't. I see the same standard being applied here. Just as we don't get to ignore the Chapter Tactics rules for the sake of individual Formations in a Strike Force, why should we get to ignore them for the Crusade?

Cal Hoskins wrote:On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

Because while you can do it for a Chaos Space Marine detachment, you do not have permission to do it for a Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine detachment.

Cal Hoskins wrote:To tackle this from another angle, would you say that the various Deathwatch Kill Team Doctrines (for example, Aquila Doctrine: Non-Vehicle model from this Formation can re-roll any To Wound rolls and armour penetration rolls of 1.) apply to the Leader of a Strategium Command Team?

I am insufficiently aware of Deathwatch Kill Team rules to answer this question. Nor did you provide enough information for me to answer it cold.

Roknar wrote:There is only one pertinant question to ask.
To quote Cal Hoskins: "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."

This is the rule we are applying. Read what it says. Don't add any meaning or rules to it. Just read it as is and I'm not being condescending here.
It has a single condition. It asks a single very specific question.
Is this formation a csm formation? (or alternatively: is this detachment a csm detachment?, depending on what you're using it on.)

The answer to that question is either yes or no.
Answering it with yes means you may apply the rules as per the supplement rules.

You are being asked what type of construct the warband is. Such a question is unconcerned about the location of it. That has nothing to do with 40k.
That's why it doesn't matter whether or not the warband is part of a detachment.
The question does't care and once you answer it with yes, you are given explicit permission to apply the rules to that same formation.
Once again, the rule tells you to apply the supplement rules to that specific formation.
It doesn't give you a limited scope to work with. It tells you to do it, no ifs or buts.

By focusing on where the formations is, rather than what it is, you are looking for an answer in the wrong place.
Does that answer why "it doesn't matter" ?

No, "where" it is in this case is part of defining "what" it is, and that is not the part you are comprehending about my case. It's "what" is the fact that it is part of two detachments, its own and a larger one. While you are focusing on one, you are discounting the other and how it looks like from this perspective.

Can you satisfy the standards and allowed permissions for both aspects of its organization? The answer you have acknowledged is no, you cannot. This means you are operating under a double standard.

 Charistoph wrote:

No, "where" it is in this case is part of defining "what" it is, and that is not the part you are comprehending about my case. It's "what" is the fact that it is part of two detachments, its own and a larger one. While you are focusing on one, you are discounting the other and how it looks like from this perspective.

Can you satisfy the standards and allowed permissions for both aspects of its organization? The answer you have acknowledged is no, you cannot. This means you are operating under a double standard.

A formation isn't part of itself? Not sure what you meant by that.

Otherwise this is exactly what I meant by you focusing on the where. You're getting lost in details when you need to ask yourself if it is a formation.
You also asked "Just because it is a Formation itself? How is that satisfied for the whole detachment itself, then? That is the reason for that question. "

The way the supplement is worded is very specific.
The supplement only asks if it is a formation. That is the ONLY conditional. I can't stress this enough. You can't add additional limitations.
So yes, "just" being a formation is sufficient. By virtue of being a formation, you have already answered the question.
Whatever else the formation may be, as soon as even a part of it is designated a formation, you can give a positive answer to the question the supplement poses.
It is a formation in a detachment, but is it a formation? That's all that matters.
That in turn gives you the permission you need to make the warband a supplement formation.

There is no double standard. Units have no issue to obey supplement as well as vanilla rules. The crusade still consists of formations, supplement or otherwise.
There is no restriction that says the crusade can't have the supplements applied to choice formations.
There is no restriction that says the crusade must consist of equal types of formations.
Everything checks out.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

No, "where" it is in this case is part of defining "what" it is, and that is not the part you are comprehending about my case. It's "what" is the fact that it is part of two detachments, its own and a larger one. While you are focusing on one, you are discounting the other and how it looks like from this perspective.

Can you satisfy the standards and allowed permissions for both aspects of its organization? The answer you have acknowledged is no, you cannot. This means you are operating under a double standard.

A formation isn't part of itself? Not sure what you meant by that.

Probably because I didn't say or imply that. It's pretty easy to not be sure of something that wasn't said.

 Roknar wrote:
Otherwise this is exactly what I meant by you focusing on the where. You're getting lost in details when you need to ask yourself if it is a formation.
You also asked "Just because it is a Formation itself? How is that satisfied for the whole detachment itself, then? That is the reason for that question. "

The "Formation" is the Choice. The "whole detachment" is the larger detachment we are speaking of that the Formation is a Choice in.

 Roknar wrote:
The way the supplement is worded is very specific.
The supplement only asks if it is a formation. That is the ONLY conditional. I can't stress this enough. You can't add additional limitations.
So yes, "just" being a formation is sufficient. By virtue of being a formation, you have already answered the question.
Whatever else the formation may be, as soon as even a part of it is designated a formation, you can give a positive answer to the question the supplement poses.
It is a formation in a detachment, but is it a formation? That's all that matters.
That in turn gives you the permission you need to make the warband a supplement formation.

Now, let's look at it from the perspective of the Crusade.

You have a large detachment. Part of that detachment has had the supplement applied to it. Where is this partial application allowed any more than it is in Chapter Tactics?

Being a Formation alone does not give carte blanche to ignore the larger detachment as if it wasn't even there.

 Roknar wrote:
There is no double standard. Units have no issue to obey supplement as well as vanilla rules. The crusade still consists of formations, supplement or otherwise.
There is no restriction that says the crusade can't have the supplements applied to choice formations.
There is no restriction that says the crusade must consist of equal types of formations.
Everything checks out.

The double standard is that you state it cannot be applied to just part of a detachment, and then you apply it to just part of a detachment.

Look at it from the perspective of the Crusade. Can you fulfill the standards to both detachments at the same time?

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

Because while you can do it for a Chaos Space Marine detachment, you do not have permission to do it for a Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine detachment.

A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:To tackle this from another angle, would you say that the various Deathwatch Kill Team Doctrines (for example, Aquila Doctrine: Non-Vehicle model from this Formation can re-roll any To Wound rolls and armour penetration rolls of 1.) apply to the Leader of a Strategium Command Team?

I am insufficiently aware of Deathwatch Kill Team rules to answer this question. Nor did you provide enough information for me to answer it cold.

Sorry, here's a link, if you click on the pictures they get big enough to read if you squint. https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/1015

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

Because while you can do it for a Chaos Space Marine detachment, you do not have permission to do it for a Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine detachment.

A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:To tackle this from another angle, would you say that the various Deathwatch Kill Team Doctrines (for example, Aquila Doctrine: Non-Vehicle model from this Formation can re-roll any To Wound rolls and armour penetration rolls of 1.) apply to the Leader of a Strategium Command Team?

I am insufficiently aware of Deathwatch Kill Team rules to answer this question. Nor did you provide enough information for me to answer it cold.

Sorry, here's a link, if you click on the pictures they get big enough to read if you squint. https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/1015

No, it would not, because that "Leader" is not part of the Kill Team. Technically speaking, neither would the Kill Team. unless other rules stated elsewhere specifically state that the Kill Team gets to use its Formation Special Rules, as those units can only belong to one detachment at a time (it should though, GW's been doing this since Strike Force Ultra if not earlier). By taking the Command Team Formation, you are dedicating them to that detachment unless permission is specifically granted elsewhere.

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:
A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

What blocks it? Nothing in the supplement books says they are exclusive. You just pick a CSM Detachment and declare it to get the supplement rules. Then repeat that with the other supplement. Is there any kind of wording anywhere that even implies you can't do both? If Crimson Slaughter CSMs still count for things like Preferred Enemy CSM, why would they not count for the Black Legion rules?

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

Because while you can do it for a Chaos Space Marine detachment, you do not have permission to do it for a Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine detachment.

A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

This is what I meant by lack of permission is not a restriction. It's the same concept with the crusade detachment.
You are not given permission to apply the black legion rules to a crimson slaughter detachment, correct.
But, and this is important, that lack of permission is not in and of itself a restriction. It does NOT say you may not do that.

Instead you are given permission to apply the BL rules to a csm formation. A CS warband is a CSM formation.
Being a csm formation fulfills the condition the supplement sets and allows you to apply the BL rules.

"If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."
"Unless it is is a Crimson Slaughter detachment or formation, you can, if you wish, say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."

See the difference there? The supplement rules don't give you specific permission to apply the rules to a CS formation. So you don't have permission to do that, true.
But that's not what you're doing at all. You are applying the rules to a csm formation as per the rules written in the supplement.
And not having permission to apply them to a CS formation is not enough to stop that. You need to actively prohibit it.
The rules that allow you to apply the supplement rules are ignorant to the fact that it is also something else. So that fact must be recognized somewhere else to stop the supplement rules from working.

As such, that prohibition does not exist for the crusade detachment. You can follow the supplement rules as written without a hitch.
So unless there is an active restriction that you can't apply the supplement to a formation within a crusade, it is legal. The supplements are blissfully ignorant to the fact that the formation is part of something else.

I am making no declaration at all, when I make no declaration. Excluded middle fallacy, for a start.

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:
A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

What blocks it? Nothing in the supplement books says they are exclusive. You just pick a CSM Detachment and declare it to get the supplement rules. Then repeat that with the other supplement. Is there any kind of wording anywhere that even implies you can't do both? If Crimson Slaughter CSMs still count for things like Preferred Enemy CSM, why would they not count for the Black Legion rules?

Because one deals with the Faction the model is from (supplements do not change Faction), while the other is questioning the type of detachment it is in.

But that is just my perspective.

Roknar wrote:This is what I meant by lack of permission is not a restriction. It's the same concept with the crusade detachment.
You are not given permission to apply the black legion rules to a crimson slaughter detachment, correct.
But, and this is important, that lack of permission is not in and of itself a restriction. It does NOT say you may not do that.

Doing things because you do not have a specific restriction against it is falling back on the "it doesn't say I can't" argument. Where does it say you can apply it to part of a detachment or a detachment that has another supplement applied to it?

 Charistoph wrote:

Roknar wrote:This is what I meant by lack of permission is not a restriction. It's the same concept with the crusade detachment.
You are not given permission to apply the black legion rules to a crimson slaughter detachment, correct.
But, and this is important, that lack of permission is not in and of itself a restriction. It does NOT say you may not do that.

Doing things because you do not have a specific restriction against it is falling back on the "it doesn't say I can't" argument. Where does it say you can apply it to part of a detachment or a detachment that has another supplement applied to it?

"It doesn't say you can't" is only half the argument though.
Having neither a restriction nor a permission means not being able to to anything.
This is different. In this case the supplement gives you permission to change a csm formation.
There aren't enough restrictions in place to limit that permission.

I can't declare a lord to use the supplement rules and gain access to it's relics just because it doesn't say I can't. I would need permission to do that.
The opposite is true too. In this case the supplement gives you permission to change a formation. I would need a restriction to prevent that from affecting a formation in a detachment, since a formation in a detachment is still a formation.
Being a different type of formation or being part of another is not enough. The supplement completely bypasses that and the crusade does nothing to prevent that.

The supplement asks if it is a csm formation. In order to prevent a BL supplement to be applied to a CSM formation that also happens to be a CS formation you would need to reflect that distinction that in the question.
Or alternatively have some other rule interfere, such as the mutually exclusive* supplement rules.

* They aren't mutually exclusive at a formation level, it's just that none of the formations offer a mix of units that would allow you to satisfy both rules. If GW were to put out a hypothetical errata that removes the option to have VotLW from warpspmiths, you could suddenly field a BL+CS fist of the gods.

To come back to your question: "Where does it say you can apply it to part of a detachment or a detachment that has another supplement applied to it?"
It doesn't say that anywhere. It also doesn't say you cannot.
There is however, a supplement that says you can apply the rules to a formation.
There isn't anything that says you can't apply that to a part of a detachment or a detachment that has another supplement applied to it.
So the only option left is to do as the supplement rule tells you to.

That leaves you in a state where part of a detachment has been altered, but that itself is not prohibited at a detachment level. And it doesn't cause a conflict on the unit level either.
You are being given permission to do something else, from an unrelated source if that makes more sense.

 Roknar wrote:



The way the supplement is worded is very specific.
The supplement only asks if it is a formation. That is the ONLY conditional. I can't stress this enough. You can't add additional limitations.
So yes, "just" being a formation is sufficient. By virtue of being a formation, you have already answered the question.
Whatever else the formation may be, as soon as even a part of it is designated a formation, you can give a positive answer to the question the supplement poses.
It is a formation in a detachment, but is it a formation? That's all that matters.
That in turn gives you the permission you need to make the warband a supplement formation.

Well, it matters if you're dealing with a CSM detachment. And, really, you're dealing with a Crimson Slaughter Detachment here, which you don't have permission to apply it to. The formation would already exist as a CS formation before you try to apply the Black Legion faction to it. If the detachment were a vanilla CSM detachment I don't see any problem, but it does look like it's a problem if you're trying to change a formation in a detachment that's already defined as another faction.

Of course, it's obvious people's mileage varies on this. Charistoph seems to be on the side of not having two formations with different supplement factions in the same detachment, ever, You and Cal seem to be on the side of letting it happen all the time. I think it's a middle ground where it has to be a vanilla CSM detachment, where the formations aren't automatically given the supplement's faction before you look to apply a different supplement. I'm not convinced any side is going to convince the other on this (though I might be pleasantly surprised).

If I gave the impression that it works on anything other than a CSM formation/Detachment then that wasn't my intent.
In order for any of this to work it needs to be vanilla CSM formation initially.

You can't change the CS formations from the supplements for example.
But if you're dealing with a CSM formation, the supplements allow you to make that formation a CS formation in addition to still being a CSM formation.
So since it is still a CSM formation you can then apply the BL rules to that CSM formation. Which gives you a CS+BL+CSM formation.

"If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."
It doesn't specify that it has to be a csm formation only and it doesn't say that it becomes a BL/CS formation exclusively. Pretty pointless in practice but I don't see a problem as per RAW.

 Roknar wrote:
If I gave the impression that it works on anything other than a CSM formation/Detachment then that wasn't my intent.
In order for any of this to work it needs to be vanilla CSM formation initially.

You can't change the CS formations from the supplements for example.
But if you're dealing with a CSM formation, the supplements allow you to make that formation a CS formation in addition to still being a CSM formation.
So since it is still a CSM formation you can then apply the BL rules to that CSM formation. Which gives you a CS+BL+CSM formation.

"If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."
It doesn't specify that it has to be a csm formation only and it doesn't say that it becomes a BL/CS formation exclusively. Pretty pointless in practice but I don't see a problem as per RAW.

Okay. The problem I see though is that if you are taking a CS detachment, you have already made the formations in it CS formations before you can do anything else, so you would not be changing a vanilla CSM formation. Even if the CS detachment is using formations that were originally CSM detachments, they would still be CS formations by dint of being part of a CS detachment. At that point I don't think you could change any of those detachments to be a BL detachment any more than you could change a CS specific formation from a supplement. I don't think you can end up with a CS/BL/CSM potpourri formation.

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:
A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

What blocks it? Nothing in the supplement books says they are exclusive. You just pick a CSM Detachment and declare it to get the supplement rules. Then repeat that with the other supplement. Is there any kind of wording anywhere that even implies you can't do both? If Crimson Slaughter CSMs still count for things like Preferred Enemy CSM, why would they not count for the Black Legion rules?

Because one deals with the Faction the model is from (supplements do not change Faction), while the other is questioning the type of detachment it is in.

But that is just my perspective.

What makes you think that when the rules say "Chaos Space Marines Detachment" they don't mean "Detachment from the Chaos Space Marines Faction"? If it doesn't mean this, what does it mean? Does it mean one thing some times, and another at other times? How is anyone supposed to know?

 Roknar wrote:

* They aren't mutually exclusive at a formation level, it's just that none of the formations offer a mix of units that would allow you to satisfy both rules. If GW were to put out a hypothetical errata that removes the option to have VotLW from warpspmiths, you could suddenly field a BL+CS fist of the gods.

I think a Heldrake Terror Pack or a Trinity of Blood would qualify. Now, I'm not saying there is a whole lot of point in doing that, but it seems legal.

Oh boy lol.
The crusade would be CSM and CS though, not just CS, so the choice formations would inherit both types as well imho. Then it would still work. Not quite sure how applying the supplements on a crusade level would affect the choice formations though.


But yea, any form of just CS or BL wouldn't work. You could apply the BL rules to that same crusade though to end up with a broken mess lol

Charistoph - Suppose the rule instead said "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or unit is also a Black Legion Detachment or unit." Would you then argue that I cannot include a Black Legion sorcerer and a non-Black Legion CSM squad in the same CAD because the CAD is a Detachment and the rule didn't give me permission for partial Detachments?

Just wanted to make sure. If I take a black legion black crusade detachment. The whole chosen as troops thing doesn't do anything right. I.e. Can I take squads of chosen as the mandatory 2 chaos space marine units

Battlefield roles mean next to nothing in a crusade detachment.
You need one core and one auxiliary formation. that's it. Black Legion or not. There are no mandatory two troop choices in a crusade detachment.

should you be referring to the 2 units of csm in a warband formation, then no. Those are two units of csm, period.