78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
Hey all, played 40k back in 2nd and some third then dropped it until 7th, I have alot of time and income, and got the wife playing last year. She wanted Eldar, while I played CSM. I now have KDK, CSM, Tyranids, and starting up Tau. Now, I have the tactical edge, but I cant help but get pissy at the strength of the eldar. I know i'm playing low tier codexes(except for KDK and soon Tau) at the moment and I expect to lose most games. I don't bring cheese, as I want to win by playing smarter then the enemy. Problem is, the whole damn eldar book is cheese lol.
My issue isn't winning or losing, but trying to have fun against 95 point warp spiders that take out entire units and jump away, being unable to shoot them off the table with their jump. The scatter bikes I have learned to be okay with, kind of lol. And My wife has no concept of tuning down her list, because while she likes to play, list building and what not is not her thing, and she doesn't really understand the insane power differences.
Basically, how would you guys keep a level head and keep this game fun in this situation lol, because i'm having a rough time of it.
21517
Post by: stealth992
Go read my recent thread titled "bring your chaos tears" share your salt with your brothers. Its a group support thread.
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
yea i've been following it lol
79109
Post by: Vashones
I play Eldar, its my first love and absolutely favorite army, and I absolutely recognize that its way overpowered compared to CSM, Tyranids, and KDK. Its actually hard to build coherent TAC lists with Eldar that are not overpowered compared to weaker armies.
Several months ago, a friend of mine asked to play a casual game against a nicely painted army. Not knowing what he would bring, I put together a Battehost list with my best painted stuff, with some Guardians in Wave Serpents and an Aspect Host with some Fire dragons and Dire Avengers. No Warp Spiders, no D weapons, no Jetbikes, no Wraithknight. He shows up to the game with a beautiful Blood Angels army. It was super fluffy; Land Raider with Assault Terminators, Assault Marines with Chaplain, Furioso Dread in a drop pod, Tactical marines in Rhinos. The game started going south for him pretty quickly by turn 2. I can see he's getting frustrated, so I start to get a little wacky, like charge marines with Dire avengers, and the Chaplain with a War Walker, just to make it interesting and to get some assaults in because that is what he was hoping to do with his army. I won, and in the end it was a fun game, but I shudder to think how angry he would be against a player who just did not care about him having a good time.
I learned that I absolutely will not run Eldar unless its an ITC event or I know roughly what I'm facing and I have had the conversation with my opponent. I own Harlequins for this very reason, to play fun casual games with. At tournaments, there are plenty of things that can compete with Eldar. For casual games, its really hard to strike that balance.
My advice: simply ask your Eldar opponent, in this case your wife, not to bring the big 3 (warp spiders, scatter bikes, wraithknights). Recognize that GW gave Eldar way too much stuff. Try and understand that many Eldar players know this already, but all we can do it match what you have; we can't keep apologizing for our army. And for god's sake, don't tell her about the Warp Hunter!
17349
Post by: SilverMK2
I play both CSM and Eldar as my two main armies.
I tend to fill out the CSM heavy slots with 4x AC havocs as you get a lot of high strength shots off a turn with them which can get MSU's running away. Similarly with the troops and fast attack choices I tend to fill up with as much melta as possible for instakilling enough models each turn to force morale checks. Raptors with x2 meltas are good for intercepting skimmers or hurty squads somewhere away from your squishy/important units.
Sticking MoN on as much as you can also helps prevent you picking up too many models from the table each turn.
Thankfully the club I play at has a good range of skills and most people are after a fun game, but CSM is a really hard army to play when you are facing forces with soooo many more tricks up their sleves than you.
When I know that I have no chance, I tend to create objectives for myself such as wiping out a specific unit, or getting to a certain point/objective.
I have to say that it is really hard sometimes playing with my Eldar to tone things down even when just bringing along random lists; I've only brought a semi-competetive list once against someone who was prepping for a tournament and pretty much tabled him by the end of turn 3... which I have certainly never gotten anywhere close to doing with my CSM 
98384
Post by: cuteywitdabooty
I didn't understand the warp spiders until I learned to play them correctly.. I get your point, I'll shelve them for a bit.. as for the knight he's been house ruled since first game.. I'll shelve the bikes too as long as you're not rolling KDK or a bunch of tau riptides...this is why I make you eggs and bacon every morning, I feel bad  )))
89756
Post by: Verviedi
This is what needs to happen more often. Open communication between people, not dakka advice posts.
99449
Post by: Reavas
Eldar are so varied its difficult to really counter them, if your going up against ordinary aspect warriors, swarm them with respawning cultists, if your going up against a wraith army... it gets a little difficult as there isn't much of a way of dealing with an army with all models above toughness 6, especially with Str D weapons taking a daemon prince is suicide, bikes with plasma are probably your best bet against them. Then there are warpspiders and jetbikes... all are very difficult to deal with.
Personally my close friend has 2 eldar armies (wraith and aspect warriors) and I play against them on regular occasions. Surprisingly my emperors children do really well against most of his troops! High initiative makes warpspiders not as good, blastmasters make short work of both wraiths and jetbikes (goodbye cover saves!) And they are massivly outranged by the blastmasters. Not so good against wraithknights and warpspiders but I do reccomend allying in some noise marines with blastermasters and give them a try. Just don't shoot any models that have more than 1 wound with them (wraithknight)
I dunno, what are all your thoughts?
21517
Post by: stealth992
Reavas wrote:Eldar are so varied its difficult to really counter them, if your going up against ordinary aspect warriors, swarm them with respawning cultists, if your going up against a wraith army... it gets a little difficult as there isn't much of a way of dealing with an army with all models above toughness 6, especially with Str D weapons taking a daemon prince is suicide, bikes with plasma are probably your best bet against them. Then there are warpspiders and jetbikes... all are very difficult to deal with.
Personally my close friend has 2 eldar armies (wraith and aspect warriors) and I play against them on regular occasions. Surprisingly my emperors children do really well against most of his troops! High initiative makes warpspiders not as good, blastmasters make short work of both wraiths and jetbikes (goodbye cover saves!) And they are massivly outranged by the blastmasters. Not so good against wraithknights and warpspiders but I do reccomend allying in some noise marines with blastermasters and give them a try. Just don't shoot any models that have more than 1 wound with them (wraithknight)
I dunno, what are all your thoughts?
There is no hope verses elder. You have to break your back to counter them, and they just need to maneuver slightly differently to counter you. Your only option as chaos is to shelve your army for now and pick up another army, or sell your army outright because you can't afford a brand new army. No use hanging on to the army either because chaos isn't going to be up to speed for at least three more years is my guess.
Or you can just keep buying chaos everything, and not play them. Just sit alone in your room for years, painting and detailing, and detailing some more. Then keep doing that for years until you own upwards of 10000 points of chaos. Keep shining their swords and sharpening their knives. Then some day, some wonderful day, when a new book comes out that will realize your armies' potential, come out from hiding. Everyone will have thought you had left warhammer 40k for good, but no, you had been training, preparing, and brooding for this moment. Return with such vengeance and hatred that you will not hold back, and you will destroy everything in your path. Like a true chaos crusade, wait for the right moment, then burst forth from the Eye of Terror and unleash your pain on the whole universe. And when they cry and complain that you are OP and that it's not fair. Reassure them that it's true. It isn't fair, but it's what they DESERVE. All of them, each and every one of them deserve to be obliterated into oblivion. And if they ask you to play with a fluffy army, tell them you will do so. But on game day bring the meanest nastiest, ugliest army you can. Give them no opportunity for victory, give them no opportunity for enjoyment. Your only goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. And when they cry, and they will cry, laugh at them, drink their salty tears, and bath in their sweet, sweet blood.
98384
Post by: cuteywitdabooty
There is no hope verses elder. You have to break your back to counter them, and they just need to maneuver slightly differently to counter you. Your only option as chaos is to shelve your army for now and pick up another army, or sell your army outright because you can't afford a brand new army. No use hanging on to the army either because chaos isn't going to be up to speed for at least three more years is my guess.
Or you can just keep buying chaos everything, and not play them. Just sit alone in your room for years, painting and detailing, and detailing some more. Then keep doing that for years until you own upwards of 10000 points of chaos. Keep shining their swords and sharpening their knives. Then some day, some wonderful day, when a new book comes out that will realize your armies' potential, come out from hiding. Everyone will have thought you had left warhammer 40k for good, but no, you had been training, preparing, and brooding for this moment. Return with such vengeance and hatred that you will not hold back, and you will destroy everything in your path. Like a true chaos crusade, wait for the right moment, then burst forth from the Eye of Terror and unleash your pain on the whole universe. And when they cry and complain that you are OP and that it's not fair. Reassure them that it's true. It isn't fair, but it's what they DESERVE. All of them, each and every one of them deserve to be obliterated into oblivion. And if they ask you to play with a fluffy army, tell them you will do so. But on game day bring the meanest nastiest, ugliest army you can. Give them no opportunity for victory, give them no opportunity for enjoyment. Your only goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. And when they cry, and they will cry, laugh at them, drink their salty tears, and bath in their sweet, sweet blood.
^^^This post right here.. I laughed way harder then I probably should have.. As he is playing me (The wife.. dun dun duuunn) by virtue of holding the most powerful weapon (we know what that is) there will be No bathing of blood or drinking of salty tears..well maybe some salty tears   Automatically Appended Next Post: but he did beat me tonight in a 1000 point army with objectives.. I rolled horribly and my dumbass forgot a a unit of scorpions hidden in terrain and didn't move them for like three turns.. He got lucky with the objectives in his favor and got 6 points right off of first turn.. but hey chaos won so he's got that going for him
97080
Post by: HuskyWarhammer
The really sad part is that, while Eldar have 3 super-powerful units, it's an easy to fix by not bringing them. Then you look at some other codices that just have entire overpowered formations (War Convocation, Decurion, Gladius) and that's a whole different level of cheese. Glad you guys are working things out
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
HuskyWarhammer wrote:The really sad part is that, while Eldar have 3 super-powerful units, it's an easy to fix by not bringing them. Then you look at some other codices that just have entire overpowered formations (War Convocation, Decurion, Gladius) and that's a whole different level of cheese. Glad you guys are working things out
WraithKnights
Scat Bikes
Warp Spiders
Fire Dragons
D-Wraiths
So what your saying is that if you remove all those units Eldar aren't that bad. True they arent but they are still head and shoulders over most other codexs.
88903
Post by: Kaiyanwang
SemperMortis wrote:HuskyWarhammer wrote:The really sad part is that, while Eldar have 3 super-powerful units, it's an easy to fix by not bringing them. Then you look at some other codices that just have entire overpowered formations (War Convocation, Decurion, Gladius) and that's a whole different level of cheese. Glad you guys are working things out
WraithKnights Scat Bikes Warp Spiders Fire Dragons D-Wraiths So what your saying is that if you remove all those units Eldar aren't that bad. True they arent but they are still head and shoulders over most other codexs.
I would not put the dragons at the level of the other four. They are designed in a childish, annoying way ("+ to the damage table? from an entire units of meltas? is not enough, let's add another +1") but, say, charge them, charge an unit of D-wraiths and then come back to me to tell the difference. Tangentially: this is the cutest thread ever.
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
Nothing like running Open topped vehicles that don't get an invul or a jink save against Fire dragons in an eldar list (or D weapons for that matter) +4 on the dmg chart means that on a 3+ my Trukks and Battlewagonz explode. Which means that they WILL explode which means I lose 50% of the models inside.
88903
Post by: Kaiyanwang
SemperMortis wrote:Nothing like running Open topped vehicles that don't get an invul or a jink save against Fire dragons in an eldar list (or D weapons for that matter) +4 on the dmg chart means that on a 3+ my Trukks and Battlewagonz explode. Which means that they WILL explode which means I lose 50% of the models inside.
I see the point but they would on a 4+ nonetheless, right? Is more of a problem of how the open topped vehicles rules were written (in short: "I hate Orks and Dark Eldar: game design principles") and removal of stuff like ramshackle. Still, I see the point, and as stated, the additional +1 of the dragons is overkill.
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
i'm okay with the dragons, they basically get free bonuses because Eldar, but I know before the game starts that one of my vehicles or walkers is dead, then I usually kill them, no big deal and part of the game =).
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
Actually against OT vehicles melta is only +3, firedragons get the +4 because reasons.
I remember one game where a unit of Killa kanz got knocked out of the game (5 kanz) by a single unit of Firedragons because +3 meant a lot of immobilized/explodes results
11860
Post by: Martel732
The Eldar are like Wolverine: they are the best at what they do. Unfortunately, that's everything.
91128
Post by: Xenomancers
You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
 Xenomancers wrote:You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.
-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.
28305
Post by: Talizvar
So this is all about what is a reasonable amount of Eldar stuff to leave at home until the army is at the same level as the next best army?
But not be like Art Jimmerson (UFC, the guy with the one boxing glove) in a fight?
Just have escalation games.
1500 point game and then the opponent keeps getting 100 points (for a tabling, 200) more for free for each loss OR the Eldar player less 100 pts per win, a handicap just like golf.
I think no-one should play with less than they should, but fielding more makes it fun!
See what it takes. 
Taking on Imperial Guard that is pretty "realistic": they deploy/reinforce IG/ AM in direct proportion to the threat level.
I do not mind playing an obviously unmatched game once, sometimes the most amazing upsets can happen.
Or you die like a dog and see if you can say you learned anything from it (other than not playing that again).
To think I had a "spare" army I gave to a cousin and it happened to be Eldar... the kicking I give myself each time I play them... it is somewhere in the realm of "no good deed goes unpunished"!
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
Lord Kragan wrote: Xenomancers wrote:You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.
-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.
Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.
Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.
almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.
Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.
Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?
So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.
91723
Post by: Nomeny
Take stuff that has long range (autocannons, havoc launchers, etc) and that can charge from deep strike. Stick a Spineshiver blade on the Raptor Talon Chaos Lord.
35714
Post by: gwarsh41
Well... if you want to start a new army that isn't suck fest central.
Renegades and Heretics.
Its a FW renegade guard army and it is a cog wrench in the meta. It has more bodies then orks and more guns than tau. Plus its battle bros with CSM and Daemons. Everything is dirt cheap and has long range. You wont mind losing bodies because a platoon of 30 is about 150pt (with upgrades) You can get al the goodies AM have, and then some, for cheaper on the most part. Bikes? Wyverns, Anything else, EARTHSHAKER CANNONS, zombies, spawn.
Also they have better zombies than Typhus.
As for your original question. I dislike fighting eldar because as an opponent I find it hard to keep up with all their special rules. I also find that the few eldar players in my area have the need to horribly table their opponents and that is no fun, so I just stopped playing against them. The last standard game I had against eldar was with my R&H, there wasn't much the eldar player could do, they couldn't hide, and they didn't have enough lasers to kill all my dudes. The opponent raged and I swore off on that opponent. Salt always comes from my opponents attitude, instead of the army they play. It sounds like in this case, you might just not want to field your CSM against eldar. I know it stinks butt, but it is the situation. I don't field my R&H against my CSM friend because we found out the hard way that it will be a rough battle unless I play them as AM. So I play my Space wolves and its a good time! He just doesn't own the models needed to make it a fair fight.
Short of that, look into Forge World stuff to balance the playing field. There is some sweet artillery chaos can get, I think there is also the sicarian, which disallows jink saves.
29836
Post by: Elbows
For friendly games, there is another shockingly simple answer: different point values. If, like most people your aim is to have a competitive, close-run game where either player can win...find a simple points ratio between your armies which let you comfortably do this. If you need to run 2250 Chaos vs. 1850 Eldar...do it. If you're not playing in a tournament, who cares. It's easier than list tailoring - the Eldar player gets to bring his/her favourite toys (as imbalanced as the game is I can imagine it's frustrating when an Eldar player spends a lot of time painting up Warp Spiders or a Wraithknight etc. and then never gets to field it because it's too powerful).
So, run unequal point values for three or four games until you find a suitable "match" and then play games at that level. It doesn't take anything away from the player with the weaker force. It's a silly fix, but worth considering.
28305
Post by: Talizvar
@Elbows: Think I proposed the "handicap" method earlier.
91128
Post by: Xenomancers
SemperMortis wrote:Lord Kragan wrote: Xenomancers wrote:You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.
-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.
Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.
Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.
almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.
Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.
Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?
So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.
I love guardians. Seriously overlooked because for the cost of 3 of them you can get a scatter bike. I take them in the battle-host which basically turns them into jump infantry because they have an auto 6 inch run and can shoot after they run.
That's a lot rending shots. Every army needs chaf - eldar chaf can bring down storm surges and wraithknights though...see - not really "toned down".
Practically every game I've played a single fire prism - it has done quality work. Falcons aren't bad ether.
Warwalkers are awesome - nuff said. Overshadowed by another super OP unit (hornets) would be auto include in any other army.
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
SemperMortis wrote:Lord Kragan wrote: Xenomancers wrote:You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.
-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.
Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.
Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.
almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.
Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.
Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?
So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.
-You mean a unit that has to fight at point-blank range (6'') to be effective all while being squishy as feth? A unit that is A1 S3 regularly and at best A2 S6 IF they charge? They also don't have fleet nor hit and run (ravenwing says hi) so their main utility is pray you killed them, which won't happen as they have too few attacks and body count. Oh did I mention that they can't use both profiles in a single turn so if they shot they are going to be gangraped if they (read: WILL) get charged?
-You think that for ALMOST the cost of a leman russ executioner you'd get more than one blast. Sure it doesnt overheat but you're paying 130pts for a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat, that's really point efficient, isn't it?.Sure the lance is penning on 4s. IF it hits. It takes 3 bloody rounds to achieve that thing you're saying it's so good about them. S5 is bad because it isn't enough to ID T3 models and has issues wounding T4 and above.
-It's not me being dense or lying it's you conflating things: they ARE tissue paper. If you think that AV12 AT BEST (and generally 10 in most vehicles) is strong go back to warhammer 101. Sacrificing all its offensive power to "maybe" survive those 6 immobilize results doesn't make them tougher, that just stalls their demise as they've been neutered. Where's that non-heating blasting going to sh- oh wait, yeah snapfiring, cannot shoot!
-you're paying 35 points for a T3 W1 model that has 1 shot at 12''. It has one shot at getting a power that does well for the circumstances. Shrouded is good... if you're already in cover which means the squad isn't firing at all so those 90pts ain't making their worth back too much.
And next time you speak about bursting someone's bubble go  yourself with a jackhammer you arrogant
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
 Elbows wrote:For friendly games, there is another shockingly simple answer: different point values. If, like most people your aim is to have a competitive, close-run game where either player can win...find a simple points ratio between your armies which let you comfortably do this. If you need to run 2250 Chaos vs. 1850 Eldar...do it. If you're not playing in a tournament, who cares. It's easier than list tailoring - the Eldar player gets to bring his/her favourite toys (as imbalanced as the game is I can imagine it's frustrating when an Eldar player spends a lot of time painting up Warp Spiders or a Wraithknight etc. and then never gets to field it because it's too powerful).
So, run unequal point values for three or four games until you find a suitable "match" and then play games at that level. It doesn't take anything away from the player with the weaker force. It's a silly fix, but worth considering.
I'll run this by her again, I tried it when we first started playing and it was a no go. But we did play 1000 point maelstrom game last night that I won, but her tactics were bad and she completely forgot about one of her units in cover lol, Only reason I won was because it was the six obj cards on turn one, which I was able to score 6 points turn one, due to a lucky D3 roll. Gonna be hard to convince her to let me have more points after that one, no matter how many times i've lost before that lol.
41291
Post by: Troy
 Verviedi wrote:This is what needs to happen more often. Open communication between people, not dakka advice posts.
If its friendly games, keep it friendly. Play scenarios. Not missions etc. but actual scenarios from stories / flights of fancy/old war scnearios. These missions do not have to be balanced in any way. One of my most enjoyable games was a game with wolves vs. Kroot. No weapons firing, and had to "leave the bodies" on the board. It looked like the remains from the first battle of Braveheart. In EPIC we did missions scenerios from WWII, titan wars (all superheavies all the time), everyone pile on the necron etc.
Alternatively just not-hey I am getting my but kicked consistently. Lets make it interesting and give me 300 extra points or such.
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
Xenomancers wrote:SemperMortis wrote:Lord Kragan wrote: Xenomancers wrote:You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.
-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.
Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.
Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.
almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.
Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.
Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?
So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.
I love guardians. Seriously overlooked because for the cost of 3 of them you can get a scatter bike. I take them in the battle-host which basically turns them into jump infantry because they have an auto 6 inch run and can shoot after they run.
That's a lot rending shots. Every army needs chaf - eldar chaf can bring down storm surges and wraithknights though...see - not really "toned down".
Warwalkers are awesome - nuff said. Overshadowed by another super OP unit (hornets) would be auto include in any other army.
Only that to kill a wraithknight you'd need 81 shots (factoring to hit and to wound rolls, FNP and the number of wounds). That's two maxed out squads of guardians. At 12'' inches. I'm pretty sure that they'll bring it down, no doubt. Specially them dying like bitches to bolter fire.
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
Lord Kragan wrote:
-You mean a unit that has to fight at point-blank range (6'') to be effective all while being squishy as feth? A unit that is A1 S3 regularly and at best A2 S6 IF they charge? They also don't have fleet nor hit and run (ravenwing says hi) so their main utility is pray you killed them, which won't happen as they have too few attacks and body count. Oh did I mention that they can't use both profiles in a single turn so if they shot they are going to be gangraped if they (read: WILL) get charged?
By Point blank range you meant 12" right? because they don't have to chuck that spear they can use that Catapult and get 2 S4 shots with Bladestorm each. So they shoot 6 shots total, get 4 hits and 2-3 wounds and a pretty good chance of a bladestorm hit so 1-2 dead marines, In CC they will get the charge because they are JET BIKES so 6 attacks at I5 =3 hits and 1-2 dead Marines before the Marines even get to swing back. So that means that the SM player lost 50% of his unit before he is even allowed to hit back not bad. As for squishy? T4 model with 3+ Armor and 4+ jink is fragile? I hate to see what you think of OP units then As far as Ravenwing? So your complaining that they aren't as good as a biker army who specialize in bikes........your making my point for me.
Lord Kragan wrote:
-You think that for ALMOST the cost of a leman russ executioner you'd get more than one blast. Sure it doesnt overheat but you're paying 130pts for a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat, that's really point efficient, isn't it?.Sure the lance is penning on 4s. IF it hits. It takes 3 bloody rounds to achieve that thing you're saying it's so good about them. S5 is bad because it isn't enough to ID T3 models and has issues wounding T4 and above.
Well no, your paying 130pts for the utility of having a S5 AP3 Large blast a S7 Ap2 Small blast or a S9 AP1 Lance shot, In essence its a tank destroyer that can drop pie plates or focus on elite infantry if necessary, or put another way, its a jack of all trades. (Actually more like a journeyman or whatever before a master)
Lord Kragan wrote:
-It's not me being dense or lying it's you conflating things: they ARE tissue paper. If you think that AV12 AT BEST (and generally 10 in most vehicles) is strong go back to warhammer 101. Sacrificing all its offensive power to "maybe" survive those 6 immobilize results doesn't make them tougher, that just stalls their demise as they've been neutered. Where's that non-heating blasting going to sh- oh wait, yeah snapfiring, cannot shoot!
Its a choice you make, that or you can pay the 15pts or whatever to give the vehicle a 5++ (most armies would salivate to get that kind of CHEAP Invul on vehicles). You seem to forget that if im shooting at you, you get to choose if you jink or not. So as the shooter I have to prioritize enough fire power in order for you to HAVE to jink, not an easy task against AV12 and generally speaking I will only get 1-3 units to Jink at best, and guess what? All that jinking means more enemy units survive to shoot again, albeit with snapshots (probably TL snapshots)
Lord Kragan wrote:
-you're paying 35 points for a T3 W1 model that has 1 shot at 12''. It has one shot at getting a power that does well for the circumstances. Shrouded is good... if you're already in cover which means the squad isn't firing at all so those 90pts ain't making their worth back too much.
*****RULE 1*******
Most Armies have ML1 psyker that cost 35pts or more, none are as spammable as Eldar that is for sure. Add to that the fact that most don't come with a FREE 4++ save. In fact in my army my ML1 Psyker is 35pts, he comes with a 6+ Save and a Force Stave.....thats about it, the table he gets to roll on is garbage and you can't upgrade his armor.
You keep forgetting I never said these units were going to be THE BEST, but what I did say was that they are better then most. And in that case I have made my point well.
91101
Post by: gummyofallbears
Lord Kragan wrote:SemperMortis wrote:Lord Kragan wrote: Xenomancers wrote:You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.
-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.
Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.
Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.
almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.
Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.
Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?
So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.
-You mean a unit that has to fight at point-blank range (6'') to be effective all while being squishy as feth? A unit that is A1 S3 regularly and at best A2 S6 IF they charge? They also don't have fleet nor hit and run (ravenwing says hi) so their main utility is pray you killed them, which won't happen as they have too few attacks and body count. Oh did I mention that they can't use both profiles in a single turn so if they shot they are going to be gangraped if they (read: WILL) get charged?
-You think that for ALMOST the cost of a leman russ executioner you'd get more than one blast. Sure it doesnt overheat but you're paying 130pts for a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat, that's really point efficient, isn't it?.Sure the lance is penning on 4s. IF it hits. It takes 3 bloody rounds to achieve that thing you're saying it's so good about them. S5 is bad because it isn't enough to ID T3 models and has issues wounding T4 and above.
-It's not me being dense or lying it's you conflating things: they ARE tissue paper. If you think that AV12 AT BEST (and generally 10 in most vehicles) is strong go back to warhammer 101. Sacrificing all its offensive power to "maybe" survive those 6 immobilize results doesn't make them tougher, that just stalls their demise as they've been neutered. Where's that non-heating blasting going to sh- oh wait, yeah snapfiring, cannot shoot!
-you're paying 35 points for a T3 W1 model that has 1 shot at 12''. It has one shot at getting a power that does well for the circumstances. Shrouded is good... if you're already in cover which means the squad isn't firing at all so those 90pts ain't making their worth back too much.
And next time you speak about bursting someone's bubble go yourself with a jackhammer you arrogant
Calm down, jeez. Frankly, viewing casually strong units in a competitive environment is quite dense.
Just because you can beat something doesn't mean it is gak. There are better options than any of the units listed in the codex, but that doesn't mean the units listed suck.
Shining spears aren't very good, I'll give you that.
Wave serpents are far from tissue paper, AV12, 4+ jink, and probably enough saturation of them to make sure they don't fold like the actual tissue paper vehicles (try playing DE or Harlequinns, that's what tissue paper really looks like)
Guardians are chaf, but they are infinitely stronger than other's chaf units. I would take guardians and a warlock over some CSM or almost every other chaff unit in the game (bar a few)
None of these units are overpowered, they are strong, but not too strong. Viewing the units listed in a vacuum isn't indicative of the units performance, if it was then Khorne Bezerkers would be considered a lot better, and the entire DE codex would be considered the weak codex of 7th.
If you are playing the 'other' eldar units in a tournament, you won't steam roll your opponent and you won't get steamrolled, but again, that does depend on the tournament.
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
Reading your comment is infuriating.
Okay, let's say 3 marines dead. Bravo your 75pts squad has killed 50pts IF they get the charge and they were out in the open out of cover. That's assuming they lost no one during overwatch too. So what if they are jetbikes?? It's not a guarantee of charging such as re-rolling charges or the fixed charge distance plus d6. And I'm pretty sure a 4+ in CC is very use- oh wait it isn't, as well as a regular marine statline (they are tough to kill, ain't they? specially by things with low AP that are SOOOO rare in this edition.). Your whole assumption relies on the marine being a punchingbag and doesn't bother with overwatch or shoots them a priori.
No I'm not making a point for you becuase this guys are bike specialists[i][u] (same as ravenwing) who have been so focused on riding their bikes that their personalities have been utterly sucked and there's only the drive to be a better biker.
Fireprism isn't bad, but it isn't OP. A leman russ can lay pain on armor while wrecking anything short of termies too.
Because a 5++ save saves you sooo often against massed firepower (read, a grav-barrage nets roughly 5 immobilizes).
Warlocks spammable? When you need to pay a 90 or 50-80 points tax? To get a warlock you need to pay at least 100pts (bikes and warlock). Certainly that looks spammable as hell. Also, all psykers come with some kind of save, like the warlock does get.
You know why they are better than many? Because those many are just plain bad and I know it from my experience as a CSM player.
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
Lord Kragan wrote:Reading your comment is infuriating.
Okay, let's say 3 marines dead. Bravo your 75pts squad has killed 50pts IF they get the charge and they were out in the open out of cover. That's assuming they lost no one during overwatch too. So what if they are jetbikes?? It's not a guarantee of charging such as re-rolling charges or the fixed charge distance plus d6. And I'm pretty sure a 4+ in CC is very use- oh wait it isn't, as well as a regular marine statline (they are tough to kill, ain't they? specially by things with low AP that are SOOOO rare in this edition.). Your whole assumption relies on the marine being a punchingbag and doesn't bother with overwatch or shoots them a priori.
No I'm not making a point for you becuase this guys are bike specialists[i][u] (same as ravenwing) who have been so focused on riding their bikes that their personalities have been utterly sucked and there's only the drive to be a better biker.
Fireprism isn't bad, but it isn't OP. A leman russ can lay pain on armor while wrecking anything short of termies too.
Because a 5++ save saves you sooo often against massed firepower (read, a grav-barrage nets roughly 5 immobilizes).
Warlocks spammable? When you need to pay a 90 or 50-80 points tax? To get a warlock you need to pay at least 100pts (bikes and warlock). Certainly that looks spammable as hell. Also, all psykers come with some kind of save, like the warlock does get.
You know why they are better than many? Because those many are just plain bad and I know it from my experience as a CSM player.
Like I said, these aren't OP units these are what the rest of the Eldar codex should have looked like. STRONG but not OP. Shining Spears are a bit weak but they are very much usable. And yes warlocks are spammable and remarkably cheap. For me to bring 6 ML1 Psykers I have to bring 2 full Ork Horde Detachments. This means I have to use ALL my HQ slots for those 6 Weirdboyz. Eldar on the other hand just have to take a couple of Guardian units or what have you and poof you get free HQ choices. not that bad. And like I said, your 35pt Psyker gets you a 4++ my 35pt Psyker gets a 6+ Save.
97080
Post by: HuskyWarhammer
Wow, it's kind of shocking how deep the salt runs against Eldar, with the arguments for Shining Spears, Warlocks, and Fire Dragons. It's gotten so far beyond legitimate debate and rather someone trying to argue the sky is green because they're an Ork and anything that's not green is OP.
92798
Post by: Traditio
XvReaperXv wrote:Basically, how would you guys keep a level head and keep this game fun in this situation lol, because i'm having a rough time of it.
So. Let's be clear on this. You're married to your opponent.
And you're asking us about how to ensure that you both have an enjoyable game?
46128
Post by: Happyjew
 Traditio wrote:XvReaperXv wrote:Basically, how would you guys keep a level head and keep this game fun in this situation lol, because i'm having a rough time of it.
So. Let's be clear on this. You're married to your opponent. And you're asking us about how to ensure that you both have an enjoyable game?
Well his wife is playing that most vile of Xenos. Though to be honest I did expect something along the lines of "Smash her filthy space elves. You'll have lots of fun." from you.
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
SemperMortis wrote:Lord Kragan wrote:Reading your comment is infuriating.
Okay, let's say 3 marines dead. Bravo your 75pts squad has killed 50pts IF they get the charge and they were out in the open out of cover. That's assuming they lost no one during overwatch too. So what if they are jetbikes?? It's not a guarantee of charging such as re-rolling charges or the fixed charge distance plus d6. And I'm pretty sure a 4+ in CC is very use- oh wait it isn't, as well as a regular marine statline (they are tough to kill, ain't they? specially by things with low AP that are SOOOO rare in this edition.). Your whole assumption relies on the marine being a punchingbag and doesn't bother with overwatch or shoots them a priori.
No I'm not making a point for you becuase this guys are bike specialists[i][u] (same as ravenwing) who have been so focused on riding their bikes that their personalities have been utterly sucked and there's only the drive to be a better biker.
Fireprism isn't bad, but it isn't OP. A leman russ can lay pain on armor while wrecking anything short of termies too.
Because a 5++ save saves you sooo often against massed firepower (read, a grav-barrage nets roughly 5 immobilizes).
Warlocks spammable? When you need to pay a 90 or 50-80 points tax? To get a warlock you need to pay at least 100pts (bikes and warlock). Certainly that looks spammable as hell. Also, all psykers come with some kind of save, like the warlock does get.
You know why they are better than many? Because those many are just plain bad and I know it from my experience as a CSM player.
Like I said, these aren't OP units these are what the rest of the Eldar codex should have looked like. STRONG but not OP. Shining Spears are a bit weak but they are very much usable. And yes warlocks are spammable and remarkably cheap. For me to bring 6 ML1 Psykers I have to bring 2 full Ork Horde Detachments. This means I have to use ALL my HQ slots for those 6 Weirdboyz. Eldar on the other hand just have to take a couple of Guardian units or what have you and poof you get free HQ choices. not that bad. And like I said, your 35pt Psyker gets you a 4++ my 35pt Psyker gets a 6+ Save.
Because orks aren't a "psichic specialist army" (they are a "meelee" specialist army) and you're making the worst comparison possible bringing a BAD codex into comparison. CSM, SM, DA (okay, theirs would cost 470, but still they'd get a near-captain with AA and a ML3), SW marines can bring six mastery 1 marines for less than 400pts and they just need to pop-up one or too formations without the need for taxes. And your 35pts psyker gets A) more toughness B) 2 wounds C) sees more uses than just being a WC battery and D) I'ts an independent character which means that he LOS on a 2+ rather than a 4+.
Nevertheless, orks are one of the worst codexii in the meta, that you try to use them as a baseline for ANYTHING is mind-boggling.
81025
Post by: koooaei
Xenomancers wrote:You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
You can make a list without jetbikes, d-scythes, spiders, wraitknights and escalation and it'd be ok to play against to literally anyone.
Eldar don't have crap units other than banshees, mind you. And even so, crap eldar units are godlike compared to crap units from other codexes. Eldar mostly have Ok, Good and FFS HOW DID THEY THINK IT'S BALANCED?!! units. Avoid the last category for casual games and it'll be fine.
93856
Post by: Galef
 koooaei wrote: Xenomancers wrote:You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
You can make a list without jetbikes, d-scythes, spiders, wraitknights and escalation and it'd be ok to play against to literally anyone.
Heck, you can still take a list with Jetbikes as long as they don't have Scatterlasers and it not be so bad. But in general, yes I would avoid Spiders, WKs & anything with D.
-
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
Lord Kragan wrote:
Because orks aren't a "psichic specialist army" (they are a "meelee" specialist army) and you're making the worst comparison possible bringing a BAD codex into comparison. CSM, SM, DA (okay, theirs would cost 470, but still they'd get a near-captain with AA and a ML3), SW marines can bring six mastery 1 marines for less than 400pts and they just need to pop-up one or too formations without the need for taxes. And your 35pts psyker gets A) more toughness B) 2 wounds C) sees more uses than just being a WC battery and D) I'ts an independent character which means that he LOS on a 2+ rather than a 4+.
Nevertheless, orks are one of the worst codexii in the meta, that you try to use them as a baseline for ANYTHING is mind-boggling.
1: Eldar are not Psychic Specialists, they are EVERYTHING Specialists. So its kind of a moot point. But lets go over Psychic armies in 40k. SMs (All different flavors), IG, Orks, Nids, Eldar, Chaos Demons and CSM. Notably Necrons, DE and Tau don't have Psykers.
SMs can bring a librarian ML 1 for 65pts. That 30 extra points gives him a 3+ armor save, better WS 1 more wound and 1 better strength, toughness and attacks. Not bad, without going into formations it would cost almost 400pts to bring 6 of these guys to a game and then add in the required troop tax so another 330pts for Scouts in 3 CADs. so 730pts gets you 6 psykers. and 6 squads of Scouts. all naked with nothing extra.
IG are in a far better position then most with the fact that their psykers don't take up a force Org slot. for 50pts they get a ML1 psyker that is the same pretty much as the Warlock except it has 2 wounds and 5++ armor instead of 4++. To summarize, they get less armor, less Initiative and cost 15pts MORE then a warlock, but they do get a 2nd wound at T3. So there is that.
Orks, we already covered but as a reminder, 35pts gets you a worse version of a Warlock, but he has higher S and T and 1 more wound, but has a 6+ save, no ability to get a better save and his psychic powers are garbage.
Nids have a weird set up, they have lots and lots of psykers to choose from but the cheapest is the zoanthrope brood which is a S4T4 WS3 version of a Warlock but with a 5+ save and 2 wounds all for 50pts. Not even remotely as good but at least it has LD10
Chaos Demons: probably the best (read that as cheapest) access to Psychic powers are the Pink Horrors 90pts gets you 10 models that = 1 ML, for 99pts you get ML2 but if you lose 1 model your back down to 1. And since they are T3 with a 5++ they will die rather quickly.
CSM have a sorcerer which is a 60pt model that is ML1 with a 3+ save and better WS, S T and 1 more wound.
So again, Warlocks are literally the cheapest and cost efficient characters out of all the factions, now I didn't go into all the sub categories because honestly I don't care about a specialist sub division of a main faction. My point is that yet again, a unit that Eldar players consider garbage is actually better then any other factions comparable characters. It is just not nearly as OP as most Eldar are used to playing with.
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
Traditio wrote:XvReaperXv wrote:Basically, how would you guys keep a level head and keep this game fun in this situation lol, because i'm having a rough time of it.
So. Let's be clear on this. You're married to your opponent.
And you're asking us about how to ensure that you both have an enjoyable game?
Well, of course we talk about it before hand, its just she doesn't understand why I think a lot of her codex is just flat out stupid, and no fun to play against. She sees it as me saying you cant take half the models you spent hours painting. And I can see her side of that, no one should have to shelve half their army for something not in their control.
81025
Post by: koooaei
XvReaperXv wrote:
Well, of course we talk about it before hand, its just she doesn't understand why I think a lot of her codex is just flat out stupid, and no fun to play against. She sees it as me saying you cant take half the models you spent hours painting. And I can see her side of that, no one should have to shelve half their army for something not in their control.
Why don't you swap armies for once. It's not only gona open her to the game from your point of view but is a fun experience overall.
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
koooaei wrote:XvReaperXv wrote:
Well, of course we talk about it before hand, its just she doesn't understand why I think a lot of her codex is just flat out stupid, and no fun to play against. She sees it as me saying you cant take half the models you spent hours painting. And I can see her side of that, no one should have to shelve half their army for something not in their control.
Why don't you swap armies for once. It's not only gona open her to the game from your point of view but is a fun experience overall.
I tried that, she doesn't want to swap because she knows she will get destroyed lol.
106626
Post by: Einachiel
Relic Sicaran
Flamers, lots of them
Nurgle bikers w T 6
Noise marines are also a nice pick
I do not recommand getting in CC unless it is of last ressort
Play a few psykers, either sorcerer or thousand sons, you won't be able to outmatch her but you'll be a thorn in her side...
Take this with a grain (or mine, depending of the case) of salt; I haven't played CSM since v6...
47138
Post by: AnomanderRake
SemperMortis wrote:...1: Eldar are not Psychic Specialists, they are EVERYTHING Specialists. So its kind of a moot point. But lets go over Psychic armies in 40k. SMs (All different flavors), IG, Orks, Nids, Eldar, Chaos Demons and CSM. Notably Necrons, DE and Tau don't have Psykers.
SMs can bring a librarian ML 1 for 65pts. That 30 extra points gives him a 3+ armor save, better WS 1 more wound and 1 better strength, toughness and attacks. Not bad, without going into formations it would cost almost 400pts to bring 6 of these guys to a game and then add in the required troop tax so another 330pts for Scouts in 3 CADs. so 730pts gets you 6 psykers. and 6 squads of Scouts. all naked with nothing extra.
IG are in a far better position then most with the fact that their psykers don't take up a force Org slot. for 50pts they get a ML1 psyker that is the same pretty much as the Warlock except it has 2 wounds and 5++ armor instead of 4++. To summarize, they get less armor, less Initiative and cost 15pts MORE then a warlock, but they do get a 2nd wound at T3. So there is that.
Orks, we already covered but as a reminder, 35pts gets you a worse version of a Warlock, but he has higher S and T and 1 more wound, but has a 6+ save, no ability to get a better save and his psychic powers are garbage.
Nids have a weird set up, they have lots and lots of psykers to choose from but the cheapest is the zoanthrope brood which is a S4T4 WS3 version of a Warlock but with a 5+ save and 2 wounds all for 50pts. Not even remotely as good but at least it has LD10
Chaos Demons: probably the best (read that as cheapest) access to Psychic powers are the Pink Horrors 90pts gets you 10 models that = 1 ML, for 99pts you get ML2 but if you lose 1 model your back down to 1. And since they are T3 with a 5++ they will die rather quickly.
CSM have a sorcerer which is a 60pt model that is ML1 with a 3+ save and better WS, S T and 1 more wound.
So again, Warlocks are literally the cheapest and cost efficient characters out of all the factions, now I didn't go into all the sub categories because honestly I don't care about a specialist sub division of a main faction. My point is that yet again, a unit that Eldar players consider garbage is actually better then any other factions comparable characters. It is just not nearly as OP as most Eldar are used to playing with.
A few points of clarification on this one. Eldar are good at psychic powers, yes, but you're discounting a lot of things here.
First point is flexibility. Craftworld Eldar have access to five disciplines (Sanctic, Divination, Telepathy, Battle, Fate), three of which (Telepathy, Battle, Fate) are worth using. Vanilla Space Marines have eleven (Biomancy, Sanctic, Malefic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy), seven of which (Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy) are worth using.
Second point is reliability/ease of access. A minimum foot Seer Council with Eldrad will be 470pts, generate nine powers and twelve Warp Charge, casts on 3+, and is stuck in a single squad. A Librarius Conclave containing two ML2 Librarians and Tigurius will be 345pts, generates seven powers and seven Warp Charge, can cast on 2+ rerollable, and can spread its powers out much more broadly. The Eldar can throw lots of Warp Charge at powers, the Space Marines can guarantee a smaller number of powers absolutely will go off.
Third point your cost-benefit analysis of psykers isn't particularly complete. A Warlock isn't an Independent Character, he's either part of a Conclave (in which he generates the same amount of Warp Charge as another army's psykers but has fewer dice to fish for powers with), or a squad leader (in which case he's a full psyker but requires 50+pts of Guardians to be used and passes Look Out, Sir! on a 4+). The most cost-effective psykers in the game give, no strings attached, a full Mastery level ( WC and power) on an Independent Character body for around 30pts/ ML, they are the Herald of Tzeentch (31.37pts/ ML), Farseer (33.33pts/ ML), and Spiritseer (35pts/ ML). They are all trumped, however, by the humble Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, which can put a full Mastery level on the table (not an Independent Character, sadly) for 18pts (Psyker (10pts), 2x Acolyte (4pts each)).
So bottom line here the Eldar, while good at psykering, are equalled or surpassed by Space Marines (who have better powers, a better caster formation, and Tigurius/Severin Loth) and Tzeentch Daemons (who usually field more Mastery levels).
Warlocks aren't considered bad because they're not as OP as the rest of the army; the Seer Council is considered mediocre because it's an expensive and inefficient unit (35pt single-wound models with little to no offensive power that need buffs to do anything at all in melee), Warlocks in Jetbike squads are considered mediocre because they don't help enough to justify losing 2-3 more bodies, and Warlocks in Guardian squads are considered mediocre because Guardian squads are considered mediocre. They're not bad at their job, but their job doesn't usually help all that much.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
 AnomanderRake wrote:
A few points of clarification on this one. Eldar are good at psychic powers, yes, but you're discounting a lot of things here.
First point is flexibility. Craftworld Eldar have access to five disciplines (Sanctic, Divination, Telepathy, Battle, Fate), three of which (Telepathy, Battle, Fate) are worth using. Vanilla Space Marines have eleven (Biomancy, Sanctic, Malefic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy), seven of which (Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy) are worth using.
How recently were 4 of those added?
When the SM book was published, they had access to the main book powers. That was all. Sure it was still a significant amount, but when that book was published there was no unique lores.
I would be incredibly surprised to see SM retain 11 Psyker trees whenever the book gets redone. Right now, the addition of the "Adeptus Astartes Psychic Powers"(Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, and Technomancy) is part of the current design philosophy which is "we don't want to publish a whole lot of new stuff, instead we're doing small patches here and there".
Second point is reliability/ease of access. A minimum foot Seer Council with Eldrad will be 470pts, generate nine powers and twelve Warp Charge, casts on 3+, and is stuck in a single squad. A Librarius Conclave containing two ML2 Librarians and Tigurius will be 345pts, generates seven powers and seven Warp Charge, can cast on 2+ rerollable, and can spread its powers out much more broadly. The Eldar can throw lots of Warp Charge at powers, the Space Marines can guarantee a smaller number of powers absolutely will go off.
A Librarius Conclave containing Tigurius also pigeonholes you into using Ultramarines Chapter Tactics or fielding the Librarius Conclave outside of the constraints of the Detachment you've chosen.
Additionally, not every SM Detachment out there has access to Librarius Conclaves.
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
Einachiel wrote:Relic Sicaran
Flamers, lots of them
Nurgle bikers w T 6
Noise marines are also a nice pick
I do not recommand getting in CC unless it is of last ressort
Play a few psykers, either sorcerer or thousand sons, you won't be able to outmatch her but you'll be a thorn in her side...
Take this with a grain (or mine, depending of the case) of salt; I haven't played CSM since v6...
I use nurgle bikers alot, problem is t6 means jack against scat bikes, which are cheaper and a troop choice.
28305
Post by: Talizvar
Funny, I was looking hard at the Deathwatch codex who are supposed to combat Xenos.
I still do not see anything that makes them a hard counter to Eldar... funny that.
I could very easily be listed a loser by choice when I have pretty much every army except Eldar, Tau or Necrons.
Dodged the bullet with Orks and Dark Eldar but that is it.
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
SemperMortis wrote:Lord Kragan wrote:
Because orks aren't a "psichic specialist army" (they are a "meelee" specialist army) and you're making the worst comparison possible bringing a BAD codex into comparison. CSM, SM, DA (okay, theirs would cost 470, but still they'd get a near-captain with AA and a ML3), SW marines can bring six mastery 1 marines for less than 400pts and they just need to pop-up one or too formations without the need for taxes. And your 35pts psyker gets A) more toughness B) 2 wounds C) sees more uses than just being a WC battery and D) I'ts an independent character which means that he LOS on a 2+ rather than a 4+.
Nevertheless, orks are one of the worst codexii in the meta, that you try to use them as a baseline for ANYTHING is mind-boggling.
1: Eldar are not Psychic Specialists, they are EVERYTHING Specialists. So its kind of a moot point. But lets go over Psychic armies in 40k. SMs (All different flavors), IG, Orks, Nids, Eldar, Chaos Demons and CSM. Notably Necrons, DE and Tau don't have Psykers.
SMs can bring a librarian ML 1 for 65pts. That 30 extra points gives him a 3+ armor save, better WS 1 more wound and 1 better strength, toughness and attacks. Not bad, without going into formations it would cost almost 400pts to bring 6 of these guys to a game and then add in the required troop tax so another 330pts for Scouts in 3 CADs. so 730pts gets you 6 psykers. and 6 squads of Scouts. all naked with nothing extra.
IG are in a far better position then most with the fact that their psykers don't take up a force Org slot. for 50pts they get a ML1 psyker that is the same pretty much as the Warlock except it has 2 wounds and 5++ armor instead of 4++. To summarize, they get less armor, less Initiative and cost 15pts MORE then a warlock, but they do get a 2nd wound at T3. So there is that.
Orks, we already covered but as a reminder, 35pts gets you a worse version of a Warlock, but he has higher S and T and 1 more wound, but has a 6+ save, no ability to get a better save and his psychic powers are garbage.
Nids have a weird set up, they have lots and lots of psykers to choose from but the cheapest is the zoanthrope brood which is a S4T4 WS3 version of a Warlock but with a 5+ save and 2 wounds all for 50pts. Not even remotely as good but at least it has LD10
Chaos Demons: probably the best (read that as cheapest) access to Psychic powers are the Pink Horrors 90pts gets you 10 models that = 1 ML, for 99pts you get ML2 but if you lose 1 model your back down to 1. And since they are T3 with a 5++ they will die rather quickly.
CSM have a sorcerer which is a 60pt model that is ML1 with a 3+ save and better WS, S T and 1 more wound.
So again, Warlocks are literally the cheapest and cost efficient characters out of all the factions, now I didn't go into all the sub categories because honestly I don't care about a specialist sub division of a main faction. My point is that yet again, a unit that Eldar players consider garbage is actually better then any other factions comparable characters. It is just not nearly as OP as most Eldar are used to playing with.
Let's go army by army, then:
A) No, it's 400pts: you take 2 3-man librarius conclaves. Period. What you're doing is maliciously restraining the marine player because you feel so, making him take an option he'd never take if he had the chance not to. Also, the eldars must pay 600pts or more points to get thier 6 warlocks naked too, and their models certainly won't have that extra toughness and better save nor the 24'' guns that pierce their armor consistently. Stop manipulating numbers to your interests, okay? Also they pay more to get the psychic hoods and a forcesword to hit at AP3.
B) Again, no: the guard pays 50-75pts less to get the psyker because they don't need the squad tax.
C)Orks is garbage. Period.
D) Except zoanthropes have a 3++ invulnerable save.Now we are lying about rules too? They are paying 15pts more for a better invuln and toughness and wounds.
E) Warlocks aren't good, but they aren't bad. At no moment I said they were garbage.
F) Marines are the most efficient characters. The conclave let's you cast all those gribbly spells on a 2+ while keep Automatically Appended Next Post:  Kanluwen wrote: AnomanderRake wrote:
A few points of clarification on this one. Eldar are good at psychic powers, yes, but you're discounting a lot of things here.
First point is flexibility. Craftworld Eldar have access to five disciplines (Sanctic, Divination, Telepathy, Battle, Fate), three of which (Telepathy, Battle, Fate) are worth using. Vanilla Space Marines have eleven (Biomancy, Sanctic, Malefic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy), seven of which (Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy) are worth using.
How recently were 4 of those added?
When the SM book was published, they had access to the main book powers. That was all. Sure it was still a significant amount, but when that book was published there was no unique lores.
I would be incredibly surprised to see SM retain 11 Psyker trees whenever the book gets redone. Right now, the addition of the "Adeptus Astartes Psychic Powers"(Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, and Technomancy) is part of the current design philosophy which is "we don't want to publish a whole lot of new stuff, instead we're doing small patches here and there".
Second point is reliability/ease of access. A minimum foot Seer Council with Eldrad will be 470pts, generate nine powers and twelve Warp Charge, casts on 3+, and is stuck in a single squad. A Librarius Conclave containing two ML2 Librarians and Tigurius will be 345pts, generates seven powers and seven Warp Charge, can cast on 2+ rerollable, and can spread its powers out much more broadly. The Eldar can throw lots of Warp Charge at powers, the Space Marines can guarantee a smaller number of powers absolutely will go off.
A Librarius Conclave containing Tigurius also pigeonholes you into using Ultramarines Chapter Tactics or fielding the Librarius Conclave outside of the constraints of the Detachment you've chosen.
Additionally, not every SM Detachment out there has access to Librarius Conclaves.
Warlocks have access to ONE of those disciplines. So there goes the flexibility of them.
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
Lord Kragan wrote:SemperMortis wrote:Lord Kragan wrote:
Because orks aren't a "psichic specialist army" (they are a "meelee" specialist army) and you're making the worst comparison possible bringing a BAD codex into comparison. CSM, SM, DA (okay, theirs would cost 470, but still they'd get a near-captain with AA and a ML3), SW marines can bring six mastery 1 marines for less than 400pts and they just need to pop-up one or too formations without the need for taxes. And your 35pts psyker gets A) more toughness B) 2 wounds C) sees more uses than just being a WC battery and D) I'ts an independent character which means that he LOS on a 2+ rather than a 4+.
Nevertheless, orks are one of the worst codexii in the meta, that you try to use them as a baseline for ANYTHING is mind-boggling.
1: Eldar are not Psychic Specialists, they are EVERYTHING Specialists. So its kind of a moot point. But lets go over Psychic armies in 40k. SMs (All different flavors), IG, Orks, Nids, Eldar, Chaos Demons and CSM. Notably Necrons, DE and Tau don't have Psykers.
SMs can bring a librarian ML 1 for 65pts. That 30 extra points gives him a 3+ armor save, better WS 1 more wound and 1 better strength, toughness and attacks. Not bad, without going into formations it would cost almost 400pts to bring 6 of these guys to a game and then add in the required troop tax so another 330pts for Scouts in 3 CADs. so 730pts gets you 6 psykers. and 6 squads of Scouts. all naked with nothing extra.
IG are in a far better position then most with the fact that their psykers don't take up a force Org slot. for 50pts they get a ML1 psyker that is the same pretty much as the Warlock except it has 2 wounds and 5++ armor instead of 4++. To summarize, they get less armor, less Initiative and cost 15pts MORE then a warlock, but they do get a 2nd wound at T3. So there is that.
Orks, we already covered but as a reminder, 35pts gets you a worse version of a Warlock, but he has higher S and T and 1 more wound, but has a 6+ save, no ability to get a better save and his psychic powers are garbage.
Nids have a weird set up, they have lots and lots of psykers to choose from but the cheapest is the zoanthrope brood which is a S4T4 WS3 version of a Warlock but with a 5+ save and 2 wounds all for 50pts. Not even remotely as good but at least it has LD10
Chaos Demons: probably the best (read that as cheapest) access to Psychic powers are the Pink Horrors 90pts gets you 10 models that = 1 ML, for 99pts you get ML2 but if you lose 1 model your back down to 1. And since they are T3 with a 5++ they will die rather quickly.
CSM have a sorcerer which is a 60pt model that is ML1 with a 3+ save and better WS, S T and 1 more wound.
So again, Warlocks are literally the cheapest and cost efficient characters out of all the factions, now I didn't go into all the sub categories because honestly I don't care about a specialist sub division of a main faction. My point is that yet again, a unit that Eldar players consider garbage is actually better then any other factions comparable characters. It is just not nearly as OP as most Eldar are used to playing with.
Let's go army by army, then:
A) No, it's 400pts: you take 2 3-man librarius conclaves. Period. What you're doing is maliciously restraining the marine player because you feel so, making him take an option he'd never take if he had the chance not to. Also, the eldars must pay 600pts or more points to get thier 6 warlocks naked too, and their models certainly won't have that extra toughness and better save nor the 24'' guns that pierce their armor consistently. Stop manipulating numbers to your interests, okay? Also they pay more to get the psychic hoods and a forcesword to hit at AP3.
B) Again, no: the guard pays 50-75pts less to get the psyker because they don't need the squad tax.
C)Orks is garbage. Period.
D) Except zoanthropes have a 3++ invulnerable save.Now we are lying about rules too? They are paying 15pts more for a better invuln and toughness and wounds.
E) Warlocks aren't good, but they aren't bad. At no moment I said they were garbage.
F) Marines are the most efficient characters. The conclave let's you cast all those gribbly spells on a 2+ while keep
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: AnomanderRake wrote:
A few points of clarification on this one. Eldar are good at psychic powers, yes, but you're discounting a lot of things here.
First point is flexibility. Craftworld Eldar have access to five disciplines (Sanctic, Divination, Telepathy, Battle, Fate), three of which (Telepathy, Battle, Fate) are worth using. Vanilla Space Marines have eleven (Biomancy, Sanctic, Malefic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy), seven of which (Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy) are worth using.
How recently were 4 of those added?
When the SM book was published, they had access to the main book powers. That was all. Sure it was still a significant amount, but when that book was published there was no unique lores.
I would be incredibly surprised to see SM retain 11 Psyker trees whenever the book gets redone. Right now, the addition of the "Adeptus Astartes Psychic Powers"(Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, and Technomancy) is part of the current design philosophy which is "we don't want to publish a whole lot of new stuff, instead we're doing small patches here and there".
Second point is reliability/ease of access. A minimum foot Seer Council with Eldrad will be 470pts, generate nine powers and twelve Warp Charge, casts on 3+, and is stuck in a single squad. A Librarius Conclave containing two ML2 Librarians and Tigurius will be 345pts, generates seven powers and seven Warp Charge, can cast on 2+ rerollable, and can spread its powers out much more broadly. The Eldar can throw lots of Warp Charge at powers, the Space Marines can guarantee a smaller number of powers absolutely will go off.
A Librarius Conclave containing Tigurius also pigeonholes you into using Ultramarines Chapter Tactics or fielding the Librarius Conclave outside of the constraints of the Detachment you've chosen.
Additionally, not every SM Detachment out there has access to Librarius Conclaves.
Warlocks have access to ONE of those disciplines. So there goes the flexibility of them.
I actually spelled out that I didn't want to include ridiculous formations, because if that is what we are doing then lets just start lumping Wraithknight spam and Scatbike spam and Warpspider spam into the mix shall we?
I was going by the basic CHEAPEST ML1 character available to each codex, the only mistake I made was the zoanthropes, I don't play against Nids to often so I forgot they get a 3++.
The fact remains that for 35pts an Eldar player can add a warlock to a number of units which buffs the eldar army immensely. And as far as acting as batteries for the better psykers.....so what? Your farseers can very easily become god like with their abilities to reroll and basically ignore perils.
If you want to play the game of who has the best what I would suggest you go look at the numerous threads already on that subject, here is a hint, Eldar usually are in 1st or 2nd place in regards to most of those polls. "Who has the best Psykers" "Who has the best Troops" and so on. Automatically Appended Next Post: ohh and I forgot to mention this earlier...Orks aren't a melee specialist army, if that was the case we would be a hell of a lot better at melee then we are. S3 and I2 on Melee troops generally isn't that great
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
"I didn't want to include formations." Fine, good for you, but the marine player that does want six psychers WILL. Stop being so self-centered and look outside the bloody box.
Then why the hell you bothered to include them? You're making comparisons about them, you're mentioning their profile, aren't you? Then do the research properly.
Inmensely is a very relative term. A few of the powers require them to put themselves in positions that will endanger them too greatly and you'll need more warpcharges than what they provide for to give said boons. So... not exactly the best designation.
You mean re-rolling ONE psychic power and the fact that we get to sacrifcie the invulnerable save just in case we suffer PotW? My god that's utterly broken, I know, it's a god of psychic might.
Three attacks base on your basic model and S4 on the charge sounds a bit like meelee oriented. Again, the point stands that orks have a bad codex, period. It doesn't demean that their specialty is meelee, only that they aren't GOOD specialists.
11860
Post by: Martel732
BA just got a new book, and there is still no reason Eldar should ever lose to them. That's true power.
70348
Post by: deathmagiks
While I appreciate a "Bash Eldar" thread as much as the next Eldar player, and while I agree that yes the baseline for the Eldar book was set surprisingly high in comparison to a number of other armies, I categorically deny that the very presence of this army on a table can cause hemorrhagic ulcers in your fun-centers.
My honest-to-Ynnead recommendation? Have a few drinks while you're playing. If you're playing at a shop or other drink-less environment, then consider a brief conversation, like perhaps some kind of beyond-puberty, voting/smoking/drinking age individuals and discuss what kind of difficulty curve you're both looking for.
Meant to be condescending? No. Meant to be humorous? Yes.
Ultimately, there really is nothing either Eldar or non-Eldar players can do about the power level of this book. Their's gentlemen's agreements (or the equivalent between Sir Does-Not-Want-Salt-Thread-Starter and his better half), there's house rules, there's special scenarios, etc. But until GW revamps the entire concept of what balance means in their little system, it falls to us. Looking for ways to do so nets you a higher chance of a positive gaming experience. Getting angry about it embitters everyone involved. Kind of like marriage, in a way...
Like Bethesda depending on a community of modders to make their shell of a game complete, GW takes for granted that we'll make their game playable. I'd rather have a 15 minute conversation before a game discussing what to bring than a 3+ hour teeth-grinding ordeal because I wrecked some poor Ork players dreams or a hair pulling match with a Necron player who seems incapable regardless of intention of losing a model to any amount of firepower.
Good Luck. Good Gaming. Good Night.
104976
Post by: nou
@OP: As a someone with similiar situation (my wife is my main opponent, but it is I who play Eldar) from what I gather from all your responses, your main problem with this is... your wife's attitude, as she opposes any sensible way to deal with this problem... If she refues point handicap, her list restrictions and any other way of ensuring even chances of winning, then she really sounds as kind of a WAAC player - and in your case "at all costs" really means "at the expediture of your fun".
But there is a slight beacon of hope for you, as you admit, that she agreed to play Maelstrom. Try Supremacy card set, as it is a bit more balanced and introduces some new ways of scoring points. And you might want to try to play on terrain heavy tables - scatterbikes are not so scary if they cannot shoot at full range and are easily tarpited in CC.
You might also try to convince her on some codex changes, but in YOUR codices - it is easier to convince someone to play against new toys than to reason them to cripple theirs.
Anyway - good luck to you and don't give up!
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
nou wrote:@ OP: As a someone with similiar situation (my wife is my main opponent, but it is I who play Eldar) from what I gather from all your responses, your main problem with this is... your wife's attitude, as she opposes any sensible way to deal with this problem... If she refues point handicap, her list restrictions and any other way of ensuring even chances of winning, then she really sounds as kind of a WAAC player - and in your case "at all costs" really means "at the expediture of your fun".
But there is a slight beacon of hope for you, as you admit, that she agreed to play Maelstrom. Try Supremacy card set, as it is a bit more balanced and introduces some new ways of scoring points. And you might want to try to play on terrain heavy tables - scatterbikes are not so scary if they cannot shoot at full range and are easily tarpited in CC.
You might also try to convince her on some codex changes, but in YOUR codices - it is easier to convince someone to play against new toys than to reason them to cripple theirs.
Anyway - good luck to you and don't give up!
After reading this thread and realizing its just not me looking for an advantage, she is willing to let me have more points as chaos. We do play on a terrain heavy table which helps a bit, except for all my combats being at I1 lol, but ill take it!
70348
Post by: deathmagiks
Drinking helps!
11860
Post by: Martel732
XvReaperXv wrote:nou wrote:@ OP: As a someone with similiar situation (my wife is my main opponent, but it is I who play Eldar) from what I gather from all your responses, your main problem with this is... your wife's attitude, as she opposes any sensible way to deal with this problem... If she refues point handicap, her list restrictions and any other way of ensuring even chances of winning, then she really sounds as kind of a WAAC player - and in your case "at all costs" really means "at the expediture of your fun".
But there is a slight beacon of hope for you, as you admit, that she agreed to play Maelstrom. Try Supremacy card set, as it is a bit more balanced and introduces some new ways of scoring points. And you might want to try to play on terrain heavy tables - scatterbikes are not so scary if they cannot shoot at full range and are easily tarpited in CC.
You might also try to convince her on some codex changes, but in YOUR codices - it is easier to convince someone to play against new toys than to reason them to cripple theirs.
Anyway - good luck to you and don't give up!
After reading this thread and realizing its just not me looking for an advantage, she is willing to let me have more points as chaos. We do play on a terrain heavy table which helps a bit, except for all my combats being at I1 lol, but ill take it!
Chaos marines have assault grenades right? But your init is lower than eldar probably anyway.
98384
Post by: cuteywitdabooty
Yea I agreed to all the stuff, if taking away units and not playing certain things makes him happy then it's an easy fix.. I'm new.. I see something and I'm like ohh shineyyy let me play with this. I have no idea what im doing I'm just painting things and rolling dice.. not really that big of a deal. I already told him to tailor my list that way I don't grab something unreasonable. I tabled the spiders and haven't played the wraith since game 1.. I also took out the units of bikes and downgraded some the scats to skurken.. after reading half the comments I might be the salty one now lol
70348
Post by: deathmagiks
 cuteywitdabooty wrote:Yea I agreed to all the stuff, if taking away units and not playing certain things makes him happy then it's an easy fix.. I'm new.. I see something and I'm like ohh shineyyy let me play with this. I have no idea what im doing I'm just painting things and rolling dice.. not really that big of a deal. I already told him to tailor my list that way I don't grab something unreasonable. I tabled the spiders and haven't played the wraith since game 1.. I also took out the units of bikes and downgraded some the scats to skurken.. after reading half the comments I might be the salty one now lol
Welcome to the community. Not sure if anyone has actually done that yet since, you know... Eldar.
Also, welcome to being an Eldar player lol. This is kinda what happens with us.
Have you chosen a craftworld's lore you like in particular? I'd be happy to help you find fluffy lists that meet with your craftworld's lore that tone down the army you're in. Alternatively, there's always themed lists besides craftworld lists that are fun and use the shiny new things.
29836
Post by: Elbows
Personally I'd bump the Chaos points before removing Eldar units - like I mentioned earlier, I don't think an Eldar player should be penalized and not be able to use certain models that he/she have painted up and spent time assembling etc.
Just toss another 300-400 points to the Chaos player and have at it.
47138
Post by: AnomanderRake
SemperMortis wrote: (Quote truncated for brevity)
I actually spelled out that I didn't want to include ridiculous formations, because if that is what we are doing then lets just start lumping Wraithknight spam and Scatbike spam and Warpspider spam into the mix shall we?
I was going by the basic CHEAPEST ML1 character available to each codex, the only mistake I made was the zoanthropes, I don't play against Nids to often so I forgot they get a 3++.
The fact remains that for 35pts an Eldar player can add a warlock to a number of units which buffs the eldar army immensely. And as far as acting as batteries for the better psykers.....so what? Your farseers can very easily become god like with their abilities to reroll and basically ignore perils.
If you want to play the game of who has the best what I would suggest you go look at the numerous threads already on that subject, here is a hint, Eldar usually are in 1st or 2nd place in regards to most of those polls. "Who has the best Psykers" "Who has the best Troops" and so on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ohh and I forgot to mention this earlier...Orks aren't a melee specialist army, if that was the case we would be a hell of a lot better at melee then we are. S3 and I2 on Melee troops generally isn't that great
Point of order. You're conflating two very different questions. Taking the answer to "what's the best generic/broadly-available ML1 psyker" and equating it to "what army has the best psykers" isn't particularly helpful.
As to the first question I'd put the Inquisition before the Eldar. An Inquisition psyker doesn't have a 4++, a fleshbane melee attack, or a pseudo-rending pistol, but I can get three for less than the price of a Warlock and I can tailor the squad they're supporting quite a bit more.
If you're going to ask "what army's got the best psykers" and then add on "...naked, without formations, without special characters, and without considering what their powers actually do for you" yes, the answer is easily Eldar. If you ask the question without qualifiers it's probably Space Marines, Eldar, and Daemons in that order. You've been making rather grandiose statements about the brokenness of Eldar psykers in a heavily constrained environment that didn't make a lot of sense to me, I don't dispute that they're good but they're not exactly outliers.
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
AnomanderRake wrote:SemperMortis wrote: (Quote truncated for brevity)
I actually spelled out that I didn't want to include ridiculous formations, because if that is what we are doing then lets just start lumping Wraithknight spam and Scatbike spam and Warpspider spam into the mix shall we?
I was going by the basic CHEAPEST ML1 character available to each codex, the only mistake I made was the zoanthropes, I don't play against Nids to often so I forgot they get a 3++.
The fact remains that for 35pts an Eldar player can add a warlock to a number of units which buffs the eldar army immensely. And as far as acting as batteries for the better psykers.....so what? Your farseers can very easily become god like with their abilities to reroll and basically ignore perils.
If you want to play the game of who has the best what I would suggest you go look at the numerous threads already on that subject, here is a hint, Eldar usually are in 1st or 2nd place in regards to most of those polls. "Who has the best Psykers" "Who has the best Troops" and so on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ohh and I forgot to mention this earlier...Orks aren't a melee specialist army, if that was the case we would be a hell of a lot better at melee then we are. S3 and I2 on Melee troops generally isn't that great
Point of order. You're conflating two very different questions. Taking the answer to "what's the best generic/broadly-available ML1 psyker" and equating it to "what army has the best psykers" isn't particularly helpful.
As to the first question I'd put the Inquisition before the Eldar. An Inquisition psyker doesn't have a 4++, a fleshbane melee attack, or a pseudo-rending pistol, but I can get three for less than the price of a Warlock and I can tailor the squad they're supporting quite a bit more.
If you're going to ask "what army's got the best psykers" and then add on "...naked, without formations, without special characters, and without considering what their powers actually do for you" yes, the answer is easily Eldar. If you ask the question without qualifiers it's probably Space Marines, Eldar, and Daemons in that order. You've been making rather grandiose statements about the brokenness of Eldar psykers in a heavily constrained environment that didn't make a lot of sense to me, I don't dispute that they're good but they're not exactly outliers.
'
The original point may have gotten lost in the mix, but it started out as a demonstration of how GOOD a warlock is, since originally it was dismissed as a toss away model. In any other codex it would be either a good HQ choice or a good addition to a squad and would be seen frequently. In the Eldar Codex not so much because they have a ton of things that are so stupidly OP that the warlock is over shadowed.
I also left out the sub factions like Inquisition and such because they really aren't a standalone army.
98384
Post by: cuteywitdabooty
deathmagiks wrote: cuteywitdabooty wrote:Yea I agreed to all the stuff, if taking away units and not playing certain things makes him happy then it's an easy fix.. I'm new.. I see something and I'm like ohh shineyyy let me play with this. I have no idea what im doing I'm just painting things and rolling dice.. not really that big of a deal. I already told him to tailor my list that way I don't grab something unreasonable. I tabled the spiders and haven't played the wraith since game 1.. I also took out the units of bikes and downgraded some the scats to skurken.. after reading half the comments I might be the salty one now lol
Welcome to the community. Not sure if anyone has actually done that yet since, you know... Eldar.
Also, welcome to being an Eldar player lol. This is kinda what happens with us.
Have you chosen a craftworld's lore you like in particular? I'd be happy to help you find fluffy lists that meet with your craftworld's lore that tone down the army you're in. Alternatively, there's always themed lists besides craftworld lists that are fun and use the shiny new things.
Thanks! I picked saim hann, Honestly.. (and I apologize ahead of time, I lack a filter).. BF told me about the Eldar and their back ground and I was like sweet, They are freaky, pleasure driven and not afraid to chase down what they want and they shoot stuff.. (Sounds like my kinda peeps and my first date)... Little did I know that they would be top tier and everyone will hate you for breathing the same air as them. I don't mind toning down the list.. and throwing him some extra points.. We did that for AoS cause yet again I picked the Stormcast Eternal.. cause you guessed it,, They are shiney!.. Notice the pattern here folks.. Easily amused.. cute and deadly.. same thing happen for dark age, I picked the nasier.. (cause come on man they have boobies!) and he picked the werewolves.. same problem.. From now on, Im making him pick my armies LOL... but def feel free to send info my way..
47138
Post by: AnomanderRake
SemperMortis wrote: (Quote retruncated)
The original point may have gotten lost in the mix, but it started out as a demonstration of how GOOD a warlock is, since originally it was dismissed as a toss away model. In any other codex it would be either a good HQ choice or a good addition to a squad and would be seen frequently. In the Eldar Codex not so much because they have a ton of things that are so stupidly OP that the warlock is over shadowed.
I also left out the sub factions like Inquisition and such because they really aren't a standalone army.
And I don't think Warlocks are anywhere near as good as you seem to. A single Warlock is a terrible HQ choice; he isn't an Independent Character, provides only self-range powers, and has no offensive potential. All he'd really accomplish is giving up First Blood really easily. As a squad the Seer Council is pretty inefficient, it's an expensive way to give another psyker more Warp Charge or an expensive tanky deathstar that can't kill anything. Warlocks in Guardian squads are okay, but their list of powers don't really benefit their squads much.
They're usable, but they're mediocre by comparison to HQ psykers and squad-leader psykers in almost any other army. Even a GK Strike Squad has powers that interact better with what the squad's there to do than a Warlock. Automatically Appended Next Post: cuteywitdabooty wrote:deathmagiks wrote: cuteywitdabooty wrote:Yea I agreed to all the stuff, if taking away units and not playing certain things makes him happy then it's an easy fix.. I'm new.. I see something and I'm like ohh shineyyy let me play with this. I have no idea what im doing I'm just painting things and rolling dice.. not really that big of a deal. I already told him to tailor my list that way I don't grab something unreasonable. I tabled the spiders and haven't played the wraith since game 1.. I also took out the units of bikes and downgraded some the scats to skurken.. after reading half the comments I might be the salty one now lol
Welcome to the community. Not sure if anyone has actually done that yet since, you know... Eldar.
Also, welcome to being an Eldar player lol. This is kinda what happens with us.
Have you chosen a craftworld's lore you like in particular? I'd be happy to help you find fluffy lists that meet with your craftworld's lore that tone down the army you're in. Alternatively, there's always themed lists besides craftworld lists that are fun and use the shiny new things.
Thanks! I picked saim hann, Honestly.. (and I apologize ahead of time, I lack a filter).. BF told me about the Eldar and their back ground and I was like sweet, They are freaky, pleasure driven and not afraid to chase down what they want and they shoot stuff.. (Sounds like my kinda peeps and my first date)... Little did I know that they would be top tier and everyone will hate you for breathing the same air as them. I don't mind toning down the list.. and throwing him some extra points.. We did that for AoS cause yet again I picked the Stormcast Eternal.. cause you guessed it,, They are shiney!.. Notice the pattern here folks.. Easily amused.. cute and deadly.. same thing happen for dark age, I picked the nasier.. (cause come on man they have boobies!) and he picked the werewolves.. same problem.. From now on, Im making him pick my armies LOL... but def feel free to send info my way..
Thinking out loud here, but if you'd be up for doing some kitbashing/conversion work and digging up an Imperial Armour book you could try Corsair jetbikes. They're a little more in line with "your kinda peeps" than the Craftworlders are usually portrayed as, and they're more flexible than Craftworld jetbikes (Craftworlders are stuck as a fast source of S6 spam, Corsair bikes can kit up for melee or run guns that can handle different targets (Dark Lances, splinter cannons)). The Chaos Marines would have a more fun time with a Jetbike unit that tried to stab them in the face than one that plays keep-away with scatter lasers.
92798
Post by: Traditio
XvReaperXv wrote:Well, of course we talk about it before hand, its just she doesn't understand why I think a lot of her codex is just flat out stupid, and no fun to play against. She sees it as me saying you cant take half the models you spent hours painting. And I can see her side of that, no one should have to shelve half their army for something not in their control.
This is what you need:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning
Since you are playing against Eldar, then you are probably going to get tabled every time.
So, no changing that.
However, you are married to your opponent.
So I'm sure that you can both find some way to condition you psychologically to look forward to getting tabled.
47138
Post by: AnomanderRake
Traditio wrote:...Since you are playing against Eldar, then you are probably going to get tabled every time...
I thought we were trying to find a way around this?
92798
Post by: Traditio
AnomanderRake wrote: Traditio wrote:...Since you are playing against Eldar, then you are probably going to get tabled every time...
I thought we were trying to find a way around this?
Lolno.
Not against Eldar cheese.
47138
Post by: AnomanderRake
I just want to say that as an Eldar player who's been making an effort to find a way to play normally with this stupid-*bleep* Codex your casual dismissal depresses me to no end.
92798
Post by: Traditio
AnomanderRake wrote:I just want to say that as an Eldar player who's been making an effort to find a way to play normally with this stupid-*bleep* Codex your casual dismissal depresses me to no end.
Well, you could always burn that stupid *bleep* Codex and use the 6th ed codex. Minus wave serpents and wraithknights, of course.
Even better: break out the 5th ed codex and use the 6th ed numbers for hull points.
But I doubt that his wife will be willing to do either of these things.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Xenomancers wrote:You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.
You are crushing competitive armies with Storm Guardians and Swooping Hawks? Wow.
81025
Post by: koooaei
Dark eldar are even boobier! It's part of being attracted to eldar. You stomp the opponent (husband) and when he whines you reciever Power From His Pain. Yep, you definitely should try dark eldar.
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
AnomanderRake wrote:SemperMortis wrote:
The original point may have gotten lost in the mix, but it started out as a demonstration of how GOOD a warlock is, since originally it was dismissed as a toss away model. In any other codex it would be either a good HQ choice or a good addition to a squad and would be seen frequently. In the Eldar Codex not so much because they have a ton of things that are so stupidly OP that the warlock is over shadowed.
I also left out the sub factions like Inquisition and such because they really aren't a standalone army.
And I don't think Warlocks are anywhere near as good as you seem to. A single Warlock is a terrible HQ choice; he isn't an Independent Character, provides only self-range powers, and has no offensive potential. All he'd really accomplish is giving up First Blood really easily. As a squad the Seer Council is pretty inefficient, it's an expensive way to give another psyker more Warp Charge or an expensive tanky deathstar that can't kill anything. Warlocks in Guardian squads are okay, but their list of powers don't really benefit their squads much.
They're usable, but they're mediocre by comparison to HQ psykers and squad-leader psykers in almost any other army. Even a GK Strike Squad has powers that interact better with what the squad's there to do than a Warlock.
Again, I am not comparing it to the BEST options out there. This is a point your really not getting. The original point was that if you removed all the GREAT OP crap from the Eldar codex that the left behind units wouldn't be playable because they are to weak. I am pointing out that for the most part that is utterly wrong. In the Ork Codex the Warlock would be better then our current psyker. In the SM Codex it would be acceptable because of the ++ with the plethora of special rules and how cheap it was. In the IG Codex again, same principle, in the Nid codex the ability to take psykers on troops choices would be amazing.
Eldar players tend to hate these arguments because they are reminded that the units they consider to be garbage are for the most part the AVERAGE unit that most other codexs have to deal with.
Guardians aren't very good in the Eldar Codex, in a number of other codex's they would be heralded as far better troops then currently available. Fire Prisms same thing. The list goes on and on, so the point is that while yes you would lose a lot of power if you were not to field Scat bikes, Wraithknights, warp spiders, fire dragons, D weapons, D wraithguard and so on you would still be left with a solid core of units that would be more then playable against the Have no codex's.
4183
Post by: Davor
How not to get salty? How about have a fun game and know that your opponent is playing an army he/she loves and enjoys playing because that is who they are, an Eldar player.
Feel pity for those people who play Eldar because they need to win with plastic toy soldiers and they only jumped on Eldar because it's the easy thing to do and know once Eldar become less powerful or a more powerful codex comes out they will jump to that codex.
Or how about just have fun no matter what because you are playing an army you love and you don't need to win with plastic toy soldiers and just enjoy it no matter how powerful your opponent's codex is and how underpowered your is. Enjoy that you can actually get a game in and just have FUN.
To get salty over something you know is an already imbalanced game and get upset with speaks more of our character than it is GW. After all if my parents were alive they would say "Davor why you so stupid and getting angry to play something you already know in right or fair. You have know one but yourself to blame buy yourself. Either accept it or walk away." Automatically Appended Next Post: I thought this was against strangers, but this is against your wife? You are salty playing your wife? She is playing an army she likes the look of. She is playing the army she likes/loves. She didn't pick an army because it's the best or easiest, but the way it looks, and fluff I believe. So you can't blame her.
As I said, be happy for her because she is an Eldar, just like you are a Chaos Space Marine. Just put in your house rules and PRACTICE. Find out where the point limit bonuses you get are. Should you get 100 points more? 1000 points more? Play games and try them out.
If anyone is salty it's you for not even trying these out. We complain about GW not doing any play testing but you don't want to be play testing either. Know that 40K is not a balanced system. So you will have to find that balance. So if it's like was said 1850 Eldar vs 2150 CSM so be it. If it works then it's perfect because she can field what she wants, and not feel bad and you can field what you want and not field bad.
40K is a mess. Accept this. Understand this. Adjust to this. You are not playing strangers, but your life partner. So just like a marriage, change it so it works. No need to be salty when playing with your wife.
When 40K didn't work for me and my kids I changed the rules so they were ok so we all had fun. Kids like the rules for Lord of the Rings that GW put out. So I made it like 40K plays like Lord of the Rings and the kids had so much more fun. Simple as that.
Change what doesn't work, add in what does work. After all who is going to say you can't make your own "house rules" when the two of you play? Change what ever you want. Change what ever she wants. If it doesn't work, try it again. It's up to you two to find out what works for you.
So is this how a marriage consoler feels like?
89756
Post by: Verviedi
Traditio wrote:AnomanderRake wrote:I just want to say that as an Eldar player who's been making an effort to find a way to play normally with this stupid-*bleep* Codex your casual dismissal depresses me to no end.
Well, you could always burn that stupid *bleep* Codex and use the 6th ed codex. Minus wave serpents and wraithknights, of course.
Even better: break out the 5th ed codex and use the 6th ed numbers for hull points.
But I doubt that his wife will be willing to do either of these things.
I'm sorry, what? Despite popular opinion, not everything in the Eldar codex is "broken OP".
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
cuteywitdabooty wrote:Yea I agreed to all the stuff, if taking away units and not playing certain things makes him happy then it's an easy fix.. I'm new.. I see something and I'm like ohh shineyyy let me play with this. I have no idea what im doing I'm just painting things and rolling dice.. not really that big of a deal. I already told him to tailor my list that way I don't grab something unreasonable. I tabled the spiders and haven't played the wraith since game 1.. I also took out the units of bikes and downgraded some the scats to skurken.. after reading half the comments I might be the salty one now lol
Take whatever you want. If you like your Eldar, play them. If your opponent is picking a weak army, simply let him take more points to make up the difference in power. Or, put a portion of your forces in Reserves to reduce their effectiveness on the board. The myth that all games have to be equal points just doesn't apply if you're playing at home. It's not like you're preparing for a tournament or anything.
You like the Wraithknight? Play it! You like Warp Spiders and Scatbikes? Play them!
Just be aware that you might be bringing 1500 pts of "good" Eldar vs 2000 pts of his weak CSM. And that's totally fine.
Remember, this is for FUN, and a big part of that is playing an army that you like. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Verviedi wrote: Traditio wrote:AnomanderRake wrote:I just want to say that as an Eldar player who's been making an effort to find a way to play normally with this stupid-*bleep* Codex your casual dismissal depresses me to no end.
Well, you could always burn that stupid *bleep* Codex and use the 6th ed codex. Minus wave serpents and wraithknights, of course.
Even better: break out the 5th ed codex and use the 6th ed numbers for hull points.
But I doubt that his wife will be willing to do either of these things.
I'm sorry, what? Despite popular opinion, not everything in the Eldar codex is "broken OP".
You guys are feeding the biggest anti-Eldar troll on Dakka. It's best to just ignore the troll.
47138
Post by: AnomanderRake
Traditio wrote:AnomanderRake wrote:I just want to say that as an Eldar player who's been making an effort to find a way to play normally with this stupid-*bleep* Codex your casual dismissal depresses me to no end.
Well, you could always burn that stupid *bleep* Codex and use the 6th ed codex. Minus wave serpents and wraithknights, of course.
Even better: break out the 5th ed codex and use the 6th ed numbers for hull points.
But I doubt that his wife will be willing to do either of these things.
I'm sorry, but this is a pretty dumb suggestion. I'm using a current/official GW Codex in a game because I want to be able to play pick-up games with strangers, asking other people to analyze my attempt to composite bits and pieces of older books/houserules on the fly is unfair. And if I'm going to break from that and start writing houserules I'm going to do a damn sight more thorough job than stapling together a half-assed patch on older books.
(Also are you seriously suggesting I take the 4e book and add hull points? That entire book was at least 25% too expensive in the era it was written for, add three extra editions of power creep and I'd be setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game.) Automatically Appended Next Post: SemperMortis wrote: AnomanderRake wrote:SemperMortis wrote:
The original point may have gotten lost in the mix, but it started out as a demonstration of how GOOD a warlock is, since originally it was dismissed as a toss away model. In any other codex it would be either a good HQ choice or a good addition to a squad and would be seen frequently. In the Eldar Codex not so much because they have a ton of things that are so stupidly OP that the warlock is over shadowed.
I also left out the sub factions like Inquisition and such because they really aren't a standalone army.
And I don't think Warlocks are anywhere near as good as you seem to. A single Warlock is a terrible HQ choice; he isn't an Independent Character, provides only self-range powers, and has no offensive potential. All he'd really accomplish is giving up First Blood really easily. As a squad the Seer Council is pretty inefficient, it's an expensive way to give another psyker more Warp Charge or an expensive tanky deathstar that can't kill anything. Warlocks in Guardian squads are okay, but their list of powers don't really benefit their squads much.
They're usable, but they're mediocre by comparison to HQ psykers and squad-leader psykers in almost any other army. Even a GK Strike Squad has powers that interact better with what the squad's there to do than a Warlock.
Again, I am not comparing it to the BEST options out there. This is a point your really not getting. The original point was that if you removed all the GREAT OP crap from the Eldar codex that the left behind units wouldn't be playable because they are to weak. I am pointing out that for the most part that is utterly wrong. In the Ork Codex the Warlock would be better then our current psyker. In the SM Codex it would be acceptable because of the ++ with the plethora of special rules and how cheap it was. In the IG Codex again, same principle, in the Nid codex the ability to take psykers on troops choices would be amazing.
Eldar players tend to hate these arguments because they are reminded that the units they consider to be garbage are for the most part the AVERAGE unit that most other codexs have to deal with.
Guardians aren't very good in the Eldar Codex, in a number of other codex's they would be heralded as far better troops then currently available. Fire Prisms same thing. The list goes on and on, so the point is that while yes you would lose a lot of power if you were not to field Scat bikes, Wraithknights, warp spiders, fire dragons, D weapons, D wraithguard and so on you would still be left with a solid core of units that would be more then playable against the Have no codex's.
...I'm not comparing the Warlock to the best options in the game. I'm comparing the Warlock to all options in the game.
If you removed all the OP crap from the Eldar book it'd still be a fine book. This is not in dispute. The Warlock just happens to be a poor example of this, since it's actually mediocre compared to the game as a whole.
Trying to analyze the Warlock by listing off its special rules in a vacuum doesn't give the entire picture; it's mediocre because the Eldar are (without the most OP units) designed as an army of specialists and the Warlock doesn't contribute materially to what most of the units it can be taken with want to be doing. He's available in five different places (the Seer Council, Guardian Defenders, Storm Guardians, Windriders, and artillery). His list of powers is highly situational, and focuses on trying to turn Guardians into generalists in an unreliable and inefficient manner.
Pretty much every other psyker in the game can get more useful powers and do things other than cast powers. (I was going to list all psykers that are better than Warlocks, but the only psykers I found that weren't were Aspiring Sorcerers, Grey Knight Purgators, and Weirdboyz.)
Guardians, Wraithlords, and all the grav-tanks are all much better examples (point of fact the Warlock, Rangers, and the Vyper are the only things in the book I wouldn't call 'good units' by comparison to the broader game).
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
Davor wrote:How not to get salty? How about have a fun game and know that your opponent is playing an army he/she loves and enjoys playing because that is who they are, an Eldar player.
Feel pity for those people who play Eldar because they need to win with plastic toy soldiers and they only jumped on Eldar because it's the easy thing to do and know once Eldar become less powerful or a more powerful codex comes out they will jump to that codex.
Or how about just have fun no matter what because you are playing an army you love and you don't need to win with plastic toy soldiers and just enjoy it no matter how powerful your opponent's codex is and how underpowered your is. Enjoy that you can actually get a game in and just have FUN.
To get salty over something you know is an already imbalanced game and get upset with speaks more of our character than it is GW. After all if my parents were alive they would say "Davor why you so stupid and getting angry to play something you already know in right or fair. You have know one but yourself to blame buy yourself. Either accept it or walk away."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought this was against strangers, but this is against your wife? You are salty playing your wife? She is playing an army she likes the look of. She is playing the army she likes/loves. She didn't pick an army because it's the best or easiest, but the way it looks, and fluff I believe. So you can't blame her.
As I said, be happy for her because she is an Eldar, just like you are a Chaos Space Marine. Just put in your house rules and PRACTICE. Find out where the point limit bonuses you get are. Should you get 100 points more? 1000 points more? Play games and try them out.
If anyone is salty it's you for not even trying these out. We complain about GW not doing any play testing but you don't want to be play testing either. Know that 40K is not a balanced system. So you will have to find that balance. So if it's like was said 1850 Eldar vs 2150 CSM so be it. If it works then it's perfect because she can field what she wants, and not feel bad and you can field what you want and not field bad.
40K is a mess. Accept this. Understand this. Adjust to this. You are not playing strangers, but your life partner. So just like a marriage, change it so it works. No need to be salty when playing with your wife.
When 40K didn't work for me and my kids I changed the rules so they were ok so we all had fun. Kids like the rules for Lord of the Rings that GW put out. So I made it like 40K plays like Lord of the Rings and the kids had so much more fun. Simple as that.
Change what doesn't work, add in what does work. After all who is going to say you can't make your own "house rules" when the two of you play? Change what ever you want. Change what ever she wants. If it doesn't work, try it again. It's up to you two to find out what works for you.
So is this how a marriage consoler feels like?
I don't have a problem not winning, I expect it, and i did have fun the first 5 or so games just playing my CSM, but it really feels like i'm just there to move targets to die, which is no fun. When you can pour 500 points of CSM shooting and not kill a unit, but the 95 point warp spiders jump all over the field killing 400+ points of units, its not fun, no matter who i'm playing. This post wasn't complaining about her army choice, or what models she wants to take, it was a post on how people deal with playing eldar and not getting mad, letting it roll of them.
Most people on here get a game a month or even less, and complain about eldar. Try bashing your face against this army 3x a week for a year and tell me if its still fun for you to just be playing the game. And yes, she has agreed to let me take more points, we are going to try some handicap next few games, see how it works out. She just needed to see it wasn't just me complaining lol.
11860
Post by: Martel732
Heldrakes are murder against the bikes at least.
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
Funny enough she gets salty as hell when I bring one lol.
11860
Post by: Martel732
Eldar don't really get to complain at this point.
71534
Post by: Bharring
I think we need to take another look at the Fire Prisim.
It has a mode of fire like a Battlecannon. Compare it to a LOT with a battle cannon. It's got better range, but both are long enough. It's got mobility and jink vs AV 14. It's got a small sidearm for small arms fire vs the LR options. Seems fair at that point....
Except that it's S5 vs S8. If you don't think that's huge, wtf. That is a huge tradeoff for viability.
It's got its Lance shot. BS4 not twinlinked. So about the same as a Las pred sans sponsons. For a lot more points. Or a Dev squad with a pair of Lascannons. You could have about double the firepower for the same points.
It has the Plasma cannon shot. Compared to a Tac squad with a PC, it has range and no gets hot. Take 4 in a Dev squad for about the same points.
So it can do any one of those jobs about half or a quarter as well as the generic version, for the same points. But it can only do one per round.
I wouldn't call that OP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't shoot 500 points of CSM and not kill Guadians. CSM will destroy them seven ways to Sunday.
47138
Post by: AnomanderRake
Last I checked I was saying that Guardians and the Fire Prism are decent to good, not OP. Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's an actual target for the Crimson Hunter! (I'm the only person at my FLGS who uses aircraft in any quantity, never had occasion to use it)
87291
Post by: jreilly89
Bharring wrote:I think we need to take another look at the Fire Prisim.
It has a mode of fire like a Battlecannon. Compare it to a LOT with a battle cannon. It's got better range, but both are long enough. It's got mobility and jink vs AV 14. It's got a small sidearm for small arms fire vs the LR options. Seems fair at that point....
Except that it's S5 vs S8. If you don't think that's huge, wtf. That is a huge tradeoff for viability.
It's got its Lance shot. BS4 not twinlinked. So about the same as a Las pred sans sponsons. For a lot more points. Or a Dev squad with a pair of Lascannons. You could have about double the firepower for the same points.
It has the Plasma cannon shot. Compared to a Tac squad with a PC, it has range and no gets hot. Take 4 in a Dev squad for about the same points.
So it can do any one of those jobs about half or a quarter as well as the generic version, for the same points. But it can only do one per round.
I wouldn't call that OP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't shoot 500 points of CSM and not kill Guadians. CSM will destroy them seven ways to Sunday.
That's why no one complains about the Prism, they complain about the Wave Serpent
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
Which is nowhere as effective as it is. Sure, you have 2d6 S6 shots with Ignores cover. They also have no AP and imply sacrifying a great defensive tool. Its damage output is midling at best now in most of its configurations.
87291
Post by: jreilly89
Lord Kragan wrote:Which is nowhere as effective as it is. Sure, you have 2d6 S6 shots with Ignores cover. They also have no AP and imply sacrifying a great defensive tool. Its damage output is midling at best now in most of its configurations.
\
What? WHAT? It's a transport, man. Having 2d6 S6 shots on a freaking transport is awesome. Plus, guess what, give it up and you can still Jink!
84364
Post by: pm713
 jreilly89 wrote:Lord Kragan wrote:Which is nowhere as effective as it is. Sure, you have 2d6 S6 shots with Ignores cover. They also have no AP and imply sacrifying a great defensive tool. Its damage output is midling at best now in most of its configurations.
\
What? WHAT? It's a transport, man. Having 2d6 S6 shots on a freaking transport is awesome. Plus, guess what, give it up and you can still Jink!
Although jinking kills all the firepower of the vehicle and the unit inside it.
71534
Post by: Bharring
Almost as good at getting 9 Grav shots on jinking troops?
It's some firepower, more than it should be, but not as fantastic as it sounds, for its points.
The Serpent compares reasonably to the Ghost Ark. Razorbacks don't do so well, unless it's Gladius, then they are OP.
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
jreilly89 wrote:Lord Kragan wrote:Which is nowhere as effective as it is. Sure, you have 2d6 S6 shots with Ignores cover. They also have no AP and imply sacrifying a great defensive tool. Its damage output is midling at best now in most of its configurations.
\
What? WHAT? It's a transport, man. Having 2d6 S6 shots on a freaking transport is awesome. Plus, guess what, give it up and you can still Jink!
It's a 100+ points transport. It can cost more than the squad it carries even without upgrades. It contributing to the army's firepower shouldn't be so outlandish. And, guess what, jinking doesn't work after getting the pen through, which is what the serpent shield is for.
Did we need the nerf? Yes. Is the serpent bad? No, barring very little stuff, there's nothing bad in this codex. I'm just saying that the current ve serpent is nowhere as bad still think.
92798
Post by: Traditio
AnomanderRake wrote:(Also are you seriously suggesting I take the 4e book and add hull points? That entire book was at least 25% too expensive in the era it was written for, add three extra editions of power creep and I'd be setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game.)
1. I said 5e, not 4e.
2. And at least you'd know how the rest of us feel. Because, you know, pretty much any "normal" game played against Eldar is already "setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game."
Seriously. The best way to play eldar is...not playing eldar.
Proxy your force as space marines.
Dire avengers count as tacticals with bolters. Wave serpents count as rhinos. Wraithknights count as dreadnoughts. Wraithguard count as terminators. Dark reapers count as devastator marines.
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
Traditio wrote:AnomanderRake wrote:(Also are you seriously suggesting I take the 4e book and add hull points? That entire book was at least 25% too expensive in the era it was written for, add three extra editions of power creep and I'd be setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game.)
1. I said 5e, not 4e.
2. And at least you'd know how the rest of us feel. Because, you know, pretty much any "normal" game played against Eldar is already "setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game."
Seriously. The best way to play eldar is...not playing eldar.
Proxy your force as space marines.
Dire avengers count as tacticals with bolters. Wave serpents count as rhinos. Wraithknights count as dreadnoughts. Wraithguard count as terminators. Dark reapers count as devastator marines.
1) Yeah, wonderful, you said 5e... except the eldar didn't get a codex in that edition. They got in 4e and it wasn't really good to boot.
2) No that's how the rest of you feel. That's how you and a handful of wimpy players utterly fixated in 3 units within the codex you fail to notice the rest for its pros and cons. I'm honestly tired of this shaming eldar players have to endure. So why not the other way around, huh? Use those nobs as banshees, etc. What about that? Go tell the others to play another army they don't want to.
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
Bharring wrote:I think we need to take another look at the Fire Prisim.
It has a mode of fire like a Battlecannon. Compare it to a LOT with a battle cannon. It's got better range, but both are long enough. It's got mobility and jink vs AV 14. It's got a small sidearm for small arms fire vs the LR options. Seems fair at that point....
Except that it's S5 vs S8. If you don't think that's huge, wtf. That is a huge tradeoff for viability.
It's got its Lance shot. BS4 not twinlinked. So about the same as a Las pred sans sponsons. For a lot more points. Or a Dev squad with a pair of Lascannons. You could have about double the firepower for the same points.
It has the Plasma cannon shot. Compared to a Tac squad with a PC, it has range and no gets hot. Take 4 in a Dev squad for about the same points.
So it can do any one of those jobs about half or a quarter as well as the generic version, for the same points. But it can only do one per round.
I wouldn't call that OP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't shoot 500 points of CSM and not kill Guadians. CSM will destroy them seven ways to Sunday.
I never said against guardians, my entire shooting phase as csm goes, tank killers hit the wave serpent, turns all pens to glances or gets its 5 up save, so a lot of firepower directed at that for a hull point or 2. Target some scat bikes but the farseer in the squad gave them the spell to re roll saves, useless again, then hell we have a unit or 2 left lets target the spiders AND ITS GONE! lol. (South park reference).
29836
Post by: Elbows
Lord Kragan wrote: Traditio wrote:AnomanderRake wrote:(Also are you seriously suggesting I take the 4e book and add hull points? That entire book was at least 25% too expensive in the era it was written for, add three extra editions of power creep and I'd be setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game.)
1. I said 5e, not 4e.
2. And at least you'd know how the rest of us feel. Because, you know, pretty much any "normal" game played against Eldar is already "setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game."
Seriously. The best way to play eldar is...not playing eldar.
Proxy your force as space marines.
Dire avengers count as tacticals with bolters. Wave serpents count as rhinos. Wraithknights count as dreadnoughts. Wraithguard count as terminators. Dark reapers count as devastator marines.
1) Yeah, wonderful, you said 5e... except the eldar didn't get a codex in that edition. They got in 4e and it wasn't really good to boot.
2) No that's how the rest of you feel. That's how you and a handful of wimpy players utterly fixated in 3 units within the codex you fail to notice the rest for its pros and cons. I'm honestly tired of this shaming eldar players have to endure. So why not the other way around, huh? Use those nobs as banshees, etc. What about that? Go tell the others to play another army they don't want to.
It's Traditio...don't waste your time.
106383
Post by: JNAProductions
I'll pitch in and say that maybe you should take a break.
Alternatively, switch armies! Let the wife try CSM, and you get to take a crack at the Eldar! (Just... You know, be a good sport. Don't laugh maniacally.)
70348
Post by: deathmagiks
So... I made a post back on page two of this clearly still-on-point-thread that I think the majority of you skipped over. I'd suggest going back and reading it.
This game, these armies, they come, intrinsically, from a company that has repeatedly expressed not only it's lack of will to balance their system wholesale, but also their lack of capability to. Let's not even touch editing...
We as players have as much responsibility to help the Chaos player enjoy his or her game as we do to have the Eldar player enjoy his or her game.
Can we drop the vitriol? There are options available. Are they perfect? No. Can you do better? Then house rule it. Or design your own game and models.
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
deathmagiks wrote:So... I made a post back on page two of this clearly still-on-point-thread that I think the majority of you skipped over. I'd suggest going back and reading it.
This game, these armies, they come, intrinsically, from a company that has repeatedly expressed not only it's lack of will to balance their system wholesale, but also their lack of capability to. Let's not even touch editing...
We as players have as much responsibility to help the Chaos player enjoy his or her game as we do to have the Eldar player enjoy his or her game.
Can we drop the vitriol? There are options available. Are they perfect? No. Can you do better? Then house rule it. Or design your own game and models.
Fantastic post, and what i'm looking for! My wife is kind of upset at some of these crazy posts about eldar players, and I agree. I don't want her to shelve units, that's unfair, so she agreed to give me a few more points next game as long as I don't bring any cheese (Still trying to convince her the heldrake is not this crazy op unit, but one step at a time lol)
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Elbows wrote:Lord Kragan wrote:Traditio 704918 8960816 wrote:(stupid nonsense)
1) Yeah, wonderful, you said 5e... except the eldar didn't get a codex in that edition. They got in 4e and it wasn't really good to boot.
2) No that's how the rest of you feel. That's how you and a handful of wimpy players utterly fixated in 3 units within the codex you fail to notice the rest for its pros and cons. I'm honestly tired of this shaming eldar players have to endure. So why not the other way around, huh? Use those nobs as banshees, etc. What about that? Go tell the others to play another army they don't want to.
It's Traditio...don't waste your time.
Exactly. Stop feeding the troll.
11860
Post by: Martel732
XvReaperXv wrote:deathmagiks wrote:So... I made a post back on page two of this clearly still-on-point-thread that I think the majority of you skipped over. I'd suggest going back and reading it.
This game, these armies, they come, intrinsically, from a company that has repeatedly expressed not only it's lack of will to balance their system wholesale, but also their lack of capability to. Let's not even touch editing...
We as players have as much responsibility to help the Chaos player enjoy his or her game as we do to have the Eldar player enjoy his or her game.
Can we drop the vitriol? There are options available. Are they perfect? No. Can you do better? Then house rule it. Or design your own game and models.
Fantastic post, and what i'm looking for! My wife is kind of upset at some of these crazy posts about eldar players, and I agree. I don't want her to shelve units, that's unfair, so she agreed to give me a few more points next game as long as I don't bring any cheese (Still trying to convince her the heldrake is not this crazy op unit, but one step at a time lol)
The helldrake misses one turn automatically, and you have to invest more points for reserve manipulation or risk a turn 3 or turn 4 arrival. It can't hold objectives while flying, and the Eldar can easily outmaneuver it.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
XvReaperXv wrote:Fantastic post, and what i'm looking for! My wife is kind of upset at some of these crazy posts about eldar players, and I agree.
I don't want her to shelve units, that's unfair, so she agreed to give me a few more points next game as long as I don't bring any cheese (Still trying to convince her the heldrake is not this crazy op unit, but one step at a time lol)
And well she should be. The trolling is ridiculous, and fortunately, you can simply [Ignore] it.
Points adjustment works great. So you for "1500" pts, you can start at 1600 vs 1400. If you keep losing, keep adding to yours and subtracting from hers. Eventually, the points delta will make balance out. Just try to play well enough that it doesn't take 2,000 pts of CSM to match her 1,000 pts of Eldar... Much less 2400 vs 600...
11860
Post by: Martel732
I second that. Points adjustment should work fine as well. Make sure you are getting the most out of your CSM units, though.
98384
Post by: cuteywitdabooty
I did offer to remove an article of clothing for every unit I kill next game lol.. Im not completely unsympathetic here and yeah don't feed the internet trolls after midnight !
40524
Post by: 455_PWR
I just wouldn't play against eldar if you feel that frustrated... they are way too op. If you dont want her to shelve units, you wil still be underpowered and lose unless you get a ton of points more (but that causes imbalance too).
However, playing against eldar with bikes, d weapons, and spiders is not a big deal if you don't mind losing. I'd say suck it up, you got your wife to play 40k, which is a win. Eventually she will get bored, need a challenge, and move on to another army (hopefully not tau lol).
My friend who play eldar doesn't use wrathguard, jetbikes, and only uses one max squad of spiders (if that, sometimes he doesn't take them at all). His army is infantry heavy with one wraithknight. He goes for fluffy lists which makes for not too bad of an army to face these days. Then again we all like fluffy armies that are not super competative. The games are a lot more fun and a lot less cutthroat.
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
cuteywitdabooty wrote:I did offer to remove an article of clothing for every unit I kill next game lol.. Im not completely unsympathetic here and yeah don't feed the internet trolls after midnight !
So it will be a turn 2 tie because the game will end for.......reasons =)
98384
Post by: cuteywitdabooty
 455_PWR wrote:I just wouldn't play against eldar if you feel that frustrated... they are way too op. If you dont want her to shelve units, you wil still be underpowered and lose unless you get a ton of points more (but that causes imbalance too).
However, playing against eldar with bikes, d weapons, and spiders is not a big deal if you don't mind losing. I'd say suck it up, you got your wife to play 40k, which is a win. Eventually she will get bored, need a challenge, and move on to another army (hopefully not tau lol).
My friend who play eldar doesn't use wrathguard, jetbikes, and only uses one max squad of spiders (if that, sometimes he doesn't take them at all). His army is infantry heavy with one wraithknight. He goes for fluffy lists which makes for not too bad of an army to face these days. Then again we all like fluffy armies that are not super competative. The games are a lot more fun and a lot less cutthroat.
He has tau already, and KDK, tyranids and necrons.. And space marines.. Lol Automatically Appended Next Post: XvReaperXv wrote: cuteywitdabooty wrote:I did offer to remove an article of clothing for every unit I kill next game lol.. Im not completely unsympathetic here and yeah don't feed the internet trolls after midnight !
So it will be a turn 2 tie because the game will end for.......reasons =)
Ha! Win win.. Who loves you baby cakes!
89756
Post by: Verviedi
Yep. This is the cutest thread on Dakka. It warms my cold cyborg heart.
70348
Post by: deathmagiks
I had a friend who moved away a while back. Awesome guy, played chaos and KDK. He actually beat JY2 (Dakka user) at one of the tournaments this year or last year if I recall (if you all know who that is) and I think took 1st place with his KDK. I think it was either the 2015 or 2016 Broadside bash.
We played a planet strike campaign before he and his wife had to move (boo, military orders!) and he had this interesting system where one could invest points in fortifying various installations of renown and strategic importance on the planet we were attempting to fight over. Had a map and everything. Actions per turn per player, back story, all that jazz. It was fun as hell (My farseer got to lvl 5 mastery for various reasons and got access to Pyromancy...).
Anyways, reason I bring this up is because his system involved an extra X number of points for how fortified an installation or location was once you attacked it. For example, my 1850 Eldar list attacked one of his fortified cities. Because of his level of fortification, he got to bring +250 points in his army and +250 points in fortifications, leaving him with a nice, cushy defensive position I had to try and out play and out wit. Since I had spent a turn scouting the area prior, it gave me a 3+ chance on a D6 to look at his list before making mine, so I was able to prepare the right combination of things for the task ahead.
This was the closest game I've ever played.
First turn I managed to Scout my 3 man war walker squad up and bright lance a Bastion to death on his left flank. It exploded, leaving a massive hole in his lines while the rest of what I had on the board moved up. He had to spend a turn hoofing certain units into the gap, lowering his shooting potential and lessening the rather withering amount of firepower I had to survive as I moved up. It didn't help as much as I hoped for as two of my serpents were taken out and the Guardians who survived the crashes forced into the copse of trees to wait for reinforcements from my deep strikers. But this kept the fire off of my Scorpions and Wraithguard as they moved into position. Only the first lines of the symphony had been played and the crescendo awaited...
That, that right there is what it's all about. Not rules in a book or who is over powered or under powered. It's about creating a memory. No one says you have to have equal points to play a good game. As absurd as this line has been taken to since it's printing... Forge that narrative, then let the points help you with the mechanics of how to put it together.
** Edited for basic grammar
98515
Post by: Lord Kragan
deathmagiks wrote:I had a friend who moved away a while back. Awesome guy, played chaos and KDK. He actually beat JY2 (Dakka user) at one of the tournaments this year or last year if I recall (if you all know who that is) and I think took 1st place with his KDK. I think it was either the 2015 or 2016 Broadside bash.
We played a planet strike campaign before he and his wife had to move (boo, military orders!) and he had this interesting system where one could invest points in fortifying various installations of renown and strategic importance on the planet we were attempting to fight over. Had a map and everything. Actions per turn per player, back story, all that jazz. It was fun as hell (My farseer got to lvl 5 mastery for various reasons and got access to Pyromancy...).
Anyways, reason I bring this up is because his system involved an extra X number of points for how fortified an installation or location was once you attacked it. For example, my 1850 Eldar list attacked one of his fortified cities. Because of his level of fortification, he got to bring +250 points in his army and +250 points in fortifications, leaving him with a nice, cushy defensive position I had to try and out play and out wit. Since I had spent a turn scouting the area prior, it gave me a 3+ chance on a D6 to look at his list before making mine, so I was able to prepare the right combination of things for the task ahead.
This was the closest game I've ever played.
First turn I managed to Scout my 3 man war walker squad up and bright lance a Bastion to death on his left flank. It exploded, leaving a massive hole in his lines while the rest of what I had on the board moved up. He had to spend a turn hoofing certain units into the gap, lowering his shooting potential and lessening the rather withering amount of firepower I had to survive as I moved up. It didn't help as much as I hoped for as two of my serpents were taken out and the Guardians who survived the crashes forced into the copse of trees to wait for reinforcements from my deep strikers. But this kept the fire off of my Scorpions and Wraithguard as they moved into position. Only the first lines of the symphony had been played and the crescendo awaited...
That, that right there is what it's all about. Not rules in a book or who is over powered or under powered. It's about creating a memory. No one says you have to have equal points to play a good game. As absurd as this line has been taken to since it's printing... Forge that narrative, then let the points help you with the mechanics of how to put it together.
** Edited for basic grammar
Now I want to play planetstrike.
|
|
