So currently I have a small dilemma.
I've recently returned to the hobby and was able to find a local GW store nearby with great staff and nice atmosphere.
In the same building one floor up there is a hobby store focused mainly on TCG like MTG but also have the GW products except at a cheaper price (10%).
Now I haven't actually been to the other hobby store but I've heard that it doesn't support the tabletop hobby that much(meaning no paint tables etc.).
IF I was to buy products from upstairs and take them downstairs to paint and assemble etc etc, would this be considered 'wrong'?
I mean 10% on small stuff ain't a lot but with the bigger boxed products 10% discount seems too good to not consider.
I think there's a strong argument to be made for 'pay where you play.' If you don't support the store you actually play in, it's not going to stay open.
I'd mix and match. Get your 10% off big boxes, but if you're going upstairs for a $1 saving and then coming back down to paint, that's not supporting the place who's facilities you're taking up.
This entire scenario is neither 'wrong' or 'right', it's entirely based around your own set of experiences and morals.
If you look at this objectively, the store with the discount offers no way for you to enjoy those discounted mini's onsite, therefor, you will want to go to a place where you CAN enjoy them - i.e. downstairs.
You can always mention it to the place with the gaming space
"I'd like to support you, but Joe upstairs is doing this stuff for 10% less, can you do anything here?" and maybe he'll match it or throw in some paints or something.
Herzlos wrote: You can always mention it to the place with the gaming space
"I'd like to support you, but Joe upstairs is doing this stuff for 10% less, can you do anything here?" and maybe he'll match it or throw in some paints or something.
Herzlos wrote: You can always mention it to the place with the gaming space
"I'd like to support you, but Joe upstairs is doing this stuff for 10% less, can you do anything here?" and maybe he'll match it or throw in some paints or something.
Inherently it is wrong yes. You'd be buying from another shop and then taking up space another paying customer could be using in the GW. It's essentially if you bought a take away from somewhere and then went into another restaurant to use their cutlery and tables because the original place didn't have any.
At the end of the day it's up to the discretion of the management of the GW, but you are taking up a paying customers space there if you were to do it.
Herzlos wrote: You can always mention it to the place with the gaming space
"I'd like to support you, but Joe upstairs is doing this stuff for 10% less, can you do anything here?" and maybe he'll match it or throw in some paints or something.
He says it's a GW store in the OP.
So, yeah...
Good spot, however it's still fair to ask. As I understand it they have a little leeway to give out freebies rather than reduce prices.
Keep a careful eye out for the other store having stock problems in the future though.
I have a FLGS which offers 8% discount via a 5€ voucher you get every 60€ of purchases.
Not big and not significant, especially compared to the online discounts you can get... BUT I almost exclusively play there so I get all my supplies and models from them that they stock (with the exception of brushes. I aint buying GW brushes).
It's just... fair. I use their services for free, so I "pay" with buying from them.
I have a FLGS which offers 8% discount via a 5€ voucher you get every 60€ of purchases.
Not big and not significant, especially compared to the online discounts you can get... BUT I almost exclusively play there so I get all my supplies and models from them that they stock (with the exception of brushes. I aint buying GW brushes).
It's just... fair. I use their services for free, so I "pay" with buying from them.
That's not what the guy was asking. He was saying about buying the stuff from the hobby store and then going down stairs to use the GW's facilities to build, paint etc as the hobby shop doesn't support that. That's trying to take advantage of free facilities without supporting the actual GW.
And this is why the whole bring your own glue, clippers etc happened at GW because people were buying their models elsewhere and then taking them into GW and using the stuff there to put their models together.
I wouldn't do it but you have every right to go in and use the painting tables on offer. I mean don't literally pitch up in store with another shops bag and start building models, that would make it just too obvious!
Of course GW have every right to ask you to leave and never come back.
Just ask the GW manager if it is okay with him if you buy the models upstairs for a discount and then bring them downstairs to paint in his store.
If he is okay with this it is all good and if he is not then don't it.
If however you feel bad making that request then I think you already know the answer to your question.
If GW choose to offer access to their painting or gaming tables without restriction, that's their choice, nobody is obligated to give them money if they also choose not to compete on price. If they want people to pay/buy something to use them, make that the policy and enforce it, otherwise both they and the rest of us should have nothing to say on the matter.
If GW choose to offer access to their painting or gaming tables without restriction, that's their choice, nobody is obligated to give them money if they also choose not to compete on price. If they want people to pay/buy something to use them, make that the policy and enforce it, otherwise both they and the rest of us should have nothing to say on the matter.
Of course it's the low thing to do. You don't buy a product from a store and then walk into a competing store and use their facilities to use the product. You should be kicked out for that. And as far as I was aware, it was their policy barring manager discretion. It's because of situations like this we lost the ability to use store supplied paints and materials.
If GW choose to offer access to their painting or gaming tables without restriction, that's their choice, nobody is obligated to give them money if they also choose not to compete on price. If they want people to pay/buy something to use them, make that the policy and enforce it, otherwise both they and the rest of us should have nothing to say on the matter.
Of course it's the low thing to do. You don't buy a product from a store and then walk into a competing store and use their facilities to use the product. You should be kicked out for that. And as far as I was aware, it was there policy barring manager discretion. It's because of situations like this we lost the ability to use store supplied paints and materials.
Is it allowed? Then it's not a low thing to do, it's allowed. Is it not allowed? The issue is moot since it's not allowed and so won't happen.
There is no rational way to argue the OP's scenario would somehow be immoral because the scenario can only occur if his actions are considered permissable by the "competing store", and if they're fine with it what's it to do with you?
When I played Star Wars CCG, it was nearly 100% at a store. I bought my cards through the store, even though I could get it cheaper online. The store provided a place to play, meet other players, and hosted tournaments. I am a big believer in pay where you play.
Now, I do not play in game stores except on rare occasions. As such, I have no qualms buying online. I do support a local game store with some purchases as it is nice to have one nearby, but I don't "owe them anything", so to speak.
Davor wrote: Is it wrong? Depends. Is it right? No. Is it low thing to do? YES.
LOL No.
Free market.
GW want people buying and playing in their store? Then compete with the people providing a better offer. Consumer choice.
They don't wanna compete and be an island? Fine, but that is entirely up to them. The should be adapting to the local market environment. They provide 10% off in that shop to equal the price of the competitor and give the bonus of a gaming space..........they'd probably wipe them out. They can afford to, being a corporate entity.
They choose not to, then they can't complain when other shops hoover up sales that GW aren't really fighting for.
I have a local coffee shop and the other week I noticed they have covered up the plug sockets by the tables. The reason they've done it is because people were coming in and setting up their laptops to use the free electricity and wifi. Apparently some of them were refusing to buy anything - just wanting to use the 'free' services. The tables were getting clogged-up with freeloaders forcing out the normal customers. That abuse has forced the cafe to remove a potentially useful service because of the actions of a few.
That's a parallel situation to the OP's case. GW aren't providing the gaming and hobby space out of the goodness of their hearts or as an obligation. They want people to buy things to support the cost of supplying those services.
Can you buy things upstairs and bring them down to use GW's facilities? Yes, although if they catch you they probably won't be pleased.
Should you do it? Depends on whether are happy freeloading. If everyone did it then the services wouldn't be supplied. Do you value the services that they are providing?
I'm pretty shocked by some of the posts here that seem to be unable to identify when something is morally wrong. Just because you can probably get away with something doesn't make it 'right'.
Its a free market. Put a sign up saying NO COFFEE NO FREELOADING CHEAPO SCUM.
GW wana provide a place to play, fine. Then also provide the incentive for people to buy and use in there too, as if they are going elsewhere for 10% off, then that 10% off clearly counts for something. GW get the money at the end of the day anyway.
If GW choose to offer access to their painting or gaming tables without restriction, that's their choice, nobody is obligated to give them money if they also choose not to compete on price. If they want people to pay/buy something to use them, make that the policy and enforce it, otherwise both they and the rest of us should have nothing to say on the matter.
Of course it's the low thing to do. You don't buy a product from a store and then walk into a competing store and use their facilities to use the product. You should be kicked out for that. And as far as I was aware, it was there policy barring manager discretion. It's because of situations like this we lost the ability to use store supplied paints and materials.
Is it allowed? Then it's not a low thing to do, it's allowed. Is it not allowed? The issue is moot since it's not allowed and so won't happen.
There is no rational way to argue the OP's scenario would somehow be immoral because the scenario can only occur if his actions are considered permissable by the "competing store", and if they're fine with it what's it to do with you?
just because something is allowed, doesn't mean it isn't low
If this is good games sydney they were there before the gw moved into the basement like space under them if I remember right so don't feel bad. That being said I don't play in either, the GW isn't local enough for me to play in thus I haven't really set foot in it, but I have been to that GG to pick up stuff a couple of times like dice or deck boxes.
At a minimum I buy all of my paints/brushes/glue from the same FLGS. If I order something online or go somewhere else is if they do not stock/order the product. ex. Reaper Bones, Battlefoam, and so on they do not stock.
Nope, nothing wrong with it. It would be kind of TFG behavior to do it the other way around, taking up space at the independent store and never buying anything, but this is a GW store we're talking about. And GW stores deserve to be driven out of business.
You could just split the difference. I'd say that if you are only buying from the cheaper guys, that's probably pretty bad. However, if every time you decide to put models together at the GW store you purchased something there as well, I'd say it's okay. (and I don't mean buying a marine biker at GW after buying a Battleforce at the Independent store. Make things proportional).
Peregrine wrote: Nope, nothing wrong with it. It would be kind of TFG behavior to do it the other way around, taking up space at the independent store and never buying anything, but this is a GW store we're talking about. And GW stores deserve to be driven out of business.
Entirely serious. GW stores are a cancer on the hobby, if they all closed overnight we'd be much better off.
If that's really true, then I feel quite disturbed that you'd quite happily wipe out quite a few hundred peoples jobs (and in some cases careers) for the sake of petty spite over a hobby.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: If that's really true, then I feel quite disturbed that you'd quite happily wipe out quite a few hundred peoples jobs (and I some cases careers) for the sake of petty spite over a hobby.
GW stores are low-wage retail jobs, no better than working at a grocery store or walmart or whatever. They're easily replaceable jobs, and not careers at all. And GW stores have a very high turnover rate anyway thanks to their impossible sales quotas and constant opening/closing of stores, if you're counting on having a GW retail job longer than a few months you're making a significant mistake.
Also, there will always be independent stores. In fact, with GW's parasites gone from the industry, there will be even more room for independent game stores to exist. And those stores will be creating jobs, offsetting whatever is lost from ending GW's retail chain. Probably more than offsetting, even, since most independent store owners aren't stupid enough to try to run single-person stores.
Jimsolo wrote: I think there's a strong argument to be made for 'pay where you play.' If you don't support the store you actually play in, it's not going to stay open.
exactly. Unless you get s too good to pass discount, that's also my philosophy
You buy GW product to use in a GW store. As long as you don't shout at everyone buying directly from the store that they should get upstairs instead, no problem IMO. You are a GW customer. You assembling/painting minis there should be considered advertising to other shoppers in a sense.
Then again I have no store that I have any sort of connection with, so I don't care about them meeting sales targets. I have, however, bought stuff in a store with nice guys running it (GW Paris) to reward them (seriously, nice dudes, great tables, great display armies and a painting competition with an actual, never claimed Golden Demon as a prize...no wonder several French GD winners apparently frequent that store) OR made a point to not buy anything because one of the clerks is a pushy arsehole (GW Mannheim). Seriously, trying to start an argument when I tell them that I have Overkill preordered already and just came in to look at their display minis of it? Yeah, no.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: If that's really true, then I feel quite disturbed that you'd quite happily wipe out quite a few hundred peoples jobs (and I some cases careers) for the sake of petty spite over a hobby.
GW stores are low-wage retail jobs, no better than working at a grocery store or walmart or whatever. They're easily replaceable jobs, and not careers at all. And GW stores have a very high turnover rate anyway thanks to their impossible sales quotas and constant opening/closing of stores, if you're counting on having a GW retail job longer than a few months you're making a significant mistake.
Also, there will always be independent stores. In fact, with GW's parasites gone from the industry, there will be even more room for independent game stores to exist. And those stores will be creating jobs, offsetting whatever is lost from ending GW's retail chain. Probably more than offsetting, even, since most independent store owners aren't stupid enough to try to run single-person stores.
There's no such thing as an easily replaceable job, you'd be daft to think so. But careers can certainly happen. A friend of mine not too long ago had served in a store in South East England in Surrey for a number of years has recently progressed to a Nottingham head office job. So it's there if you work for it. Even if it is a low pay job, for some people, it gives them the opportunity to live while seeking something better. It's a good entry job for a while. Wishing for their demise is hardly a rational act.
I didn't even read it, but if you have to ask, probably it is.
After reading it... Yeah, I'd say that's wrong. You're buying from one store, then taking up space in another. It's not horribly wrong or anything-but it's definitely kinda a d move.
If GW choose to offer access to their painting or gaming tables without restriction, that's their choice, nobody is obligated to give them money if they also choose not to compete on price. If they want people to pay/buy something to use them, make that the policy and enforce it, otherwise both they and the rest of us should have nothing to say on the matter.
Of course it's the low thing to do. You don't buy a product from a store and then walk into a competing store and use their facilities to use the product. You should be kicked out for that. And as far as I was aware, it was there policy barring manager discretion. It's because of situations like this we lost the ability to use store supplied paints and materials.
Is it allowed? Then it's not a low thing to do, it's allowed. Is it not allowed? The issue is moot since it's not allowed and so won't happen.
There is no rational way to argue the OP's scenario would somehow be immoral because the scenario can only occur if his actions are considered permissable by the "competing store", and if they're fine with it what's it to do with you?
just because something is allowed, doesn't mean it isn't low
What?
This literally isn't even arguable, so I can't fathom how some of you have managed to convince yourself that it is.
If a store doesn't want people to use their tables, painting or gaming, with product purchased elsewhere they are entirely free and within their rights to make table use conditional on whatever terms they choose. They are entirely in control of the situation. So how on earth do you twist that so it's a customer's fault if they choose not to impose any conditions?
Particularly given we're talking about a GW store here, which are ostensibly supposed to be more than mere retail outlets, places designed to encourage and develop people's involvement with the hobby. I mean crikey, you guys realise that if we follow your hilarious "logic", then someone who gets GW models as a Christmas present that their family/friends bought from GW's own webstore online, they would be being "low" if they went in to a GW store for some painting lessons? That it would mean a regular GW customer who spends a fortune on the hobby would be being "low" if they went to the local GW's game night with their Death Korps of Krieg army from Forgeworld?
Herzlos wrote:And to be fair, GW are still making about 60% of the retail price on the stuff you bought upstairs, so it's not as if they lose out.
The guy running the GW won't see any of it though, or whoever decides to close the stores.
While you may be giving "it" to GW, the person running the store is human. As a few posts said, the turn over rate is high, the quotas are high, so it's already hard and stressful to work at GW. Thing is, as I said, it's a human person "average Joe" who just lost a sale and now might loose his job.
So yes it's a low move, "Hi, I just saved some pennies, or even $50 but I am going to use your store and now you have a good chance at loosing your job because of lost sale(s)".
If that is not a low move, then I don't know what is then.
Overdose wrote: So currently I have a small dilemma.
I've recently returned to the hobby and was able to find a local GW store nearby with great staff and nice atmosphere.
In the same building one floor up there is a hobby store focused mainly on TCG like MTG but also have the GW products except at a cheaper price (10%).
Now I haven't actually been to the other hobby store but I've heard that it doesn't support the tabletop hobby that much(meaning no paint tables etc.).
IF I was to buy products from upstairs and take them downstairs to paint and assemble etc etc, would this be considered 'wrong'?
I mean 10% on small stuff ain't a lot but with the bigger boxed products 10% discount seems too good to not consider.
What do you guys think?
Any opinions?
I would get the deals as long as I could. Your store upstairs is living on borrowed time...
Others have said it, There is no right or wrong, but If you do it in such a way as to rub the GW stores face in it, you indirectly give the redshirts an issue that will put them in a position of possibly getting fired/ replaced.
If you do it smart, you go in with the stuff from upstairs in the GW boxes, in a GW bag. put together, paint and play, and go about your business. If you go upstairs to LGS#2, buy your models, paint or whatever, and then run downstairs and go into the store with the competitions bag/ product, and drop it down and start working on it/ unboxing, etc. you open up an issue for the Redshirts that they honestly will send you packing for.
Yes, your going to get a load of gak, expect it. BUT if you go in with the GW bag, with the GW stuff in said bag, they won't give you any static. (You heard it hear first.)
Overdose wrote: So currently I have a small dilemma. I've recently returned to the hobby and was able to find a local GW store nearby with great staff and nice atmosphere.
In the same building one floor up there is a hobby store focused mainly on TCG like MTG but also have the GW products except at a cheaper price (10%).
Now I haven't actually been to the other hobby store but I've heard that it doesn't support the tabletop hobby that much(meaning no paint tables etc.).
IF I was to buy products from upstairs and take them downstairs to paint and assemble etc etc, would this be considered 'wrong'?
I mean 10% on small stuff ain't a lot but with the bigger boxed products 10% discount seems too good to not consider.
What do you guys think? Any opinions?
I would get the deals as long as I could. Your store upstairs is living on borrowed time...
Others have said it, There is no right or wrong, but If you do it in such a way as to rub the GW stores face in it, you indirectly give the redshirts an issue that will put them in a position of possibly getting fired/ replaced.
If you do it smart, you go in with the stuff from upstairs in the GW boxes, in a GW bag. put together, paint and play, and go about your business. If you go upstairs to LGS#2, buy your models, paint or whatever, and then run downstairs and go into the store with the competitions bag/ product, and drop it down and start working on it/ unboxing, etc. you open up an issue for the Redshirts that they honestly will send you packing for.
Yes, your going to get a load of gak, expect it. BUT if you go in with the GW bag, with the GW stuff in said bag, they won't give you any static. (You heard it hear first.)
Go into a store without a recipet that you didn't buy it from? For what ever reason since it's a one man store, 1) the person should know he didn't buy it from him 2) if by chance the employee doesn't know he bought it, but sees you "unboxing" (put it in quotes since I am assuming you are meaning taking the shrink wrap off) the product he bought and knowing he didn't sell this kit to anyone, he can consider it theft. Then you have to explain and SHOW proof that you bought it upstairs then explain to why you didn't buy it from him. Yes it is understandable you want it cheaper, but then explain why are you using his store instead of going home to paint/model what ever.
See some people say GW needs to adapt and offer services if people are buying from other stores. Thing is, GW is offering a service. A place to paint and model. Or at least this store is. So why should the original poster get this service for free especially since the store he bought it from doesn't offer this service.
After all OP put yourself in the GW workers shoes. How would you feel someone comes in and didn't buy anything from you but using the stores paints and what not, and now you might not have a job because sales are going else where.
There is a reason why people say "pay where you play", or in your case "pay where you model". Now here is a question. Why are you going to the GW store instead of home to do your modelling and painting?
Yodhrin wrote: That it would mean a regular GW customer who spends a fortune on the hobby would be being "low" if they went to the local GW's game night with their Death Korps of Krieg army from Forgeworld?
That's the opinion of the guy who runs the local GW store. It's really frustrating.
Davor wrote: So yes it's a low move, "Hi, I just saved some pennies, or even $50 but I am going to use your store and now you have a good chance at loosing your job because of lost sale(s)".
Using someone's store doesn't cost them anything, and you're only buying the $50 thing once. If you buy at the GW store then the independent store doesn't get the $50 sale, and maybe someone there loses a job. You aren't obligated to buy extra stuff as a charity donation, this is a business we're talking about.
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Davor wrote: So why should the original poster get this service for free especially since the store he bought it from doesn't offer this service.
Because they can. GW is the company that decided to offer gaming/painting/etc space without charging extra to use it, people have no obligation to donate to GW like it's a charity. And any GW product you buy is still giving money to GW, so why shouldn't you be able to use GW's space to work on your GW product?
Davor wrote: So yes it's a low move, "Hi, I just saved some pennies, or even $50 but I am going to use your store and now you have a good chance at loosing your job because of lost sale(s)".
Using someone's store doesn't cost them anything, and you're only buying the $50 thing once. If you buy at the GW store then the independent store doesn't get the $50 sale, and maybe someone there loses a job. You aren't obligated to buy extra stuff as a charity donation, this is a business we're talking about.
So why isn't the other store offering this service if it doesn't cost them anything?
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Davor wrote: So why should the original poster get this service for free especially since the store he bought it from doesn't offer this service.
Because they can. GW is the company that decided to offer gaming/painting/etc space without charging extra to use it, people have no obligation to donate to GW like it's a charity. And any GW product you buy is still giving money to GW, so why shouldn't you be able to use GW's space to work on your GW product?
Just because they can doesn't mean it's right. A lot of things people do because they can, doesn't make it right or morale. While this is way overboard, using the "I can excuse" is no excuse. People can murder. People can steal. Does this make it morale or right? So no, just because someone can is still a low move.
It's only because it's a GW store you are saying this is ok. How about we turn this around. How about if the OP buys from the GW downstairs but has no gaming table but then the OP goes upstairs to play at the non GW store if it had gaming tables. Is this ok then? Or are you just saying because it's GW and they deserve this because GW is the Evil Empire?
Davor wrote: So yes it's a low move, "Hi, I just saved some pennies, or even $50 but I am going to use your store and now you have a good chance at loosing your job because of lost sale(s)".
Using someone's store doesn't cost them anything, and you're only buying the $50 thing once. If you buy at the GW store then the independent store doesn't get the $50 sale, and maybe someone there loses a job. You aren't obligated to buy extra stuff as a charity donation, this is a business we're talking about.
It costs them work time dealing with a person who won't be buying anything but when they could be focusing on a customer who could be buying something.
It costs them store space where they could be teaching a potential new player how to paint and model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Davor wrote: So why should the original poster get this service for free especially since the store he bought it from doesn't offer this service.
Because they can. GW is the company that decided to offer gaming/painting/etc space without charging extra to use it, people have no obligation to donate to GW like it's a charity. And any GW product you buy is still giving money to GW, so why shouldn't you be able to use GW's space to work on your GW product?
Because you didn't support the store you got it from. Why should they let you treat the store as a personal workspace when you're not helping the staff hit their targets and make sure they stay open?
I think I know the store you're talking about - just down the road from the QVB? Haven't been there for a while, but I'm pretty sure the GW stock from the hobby store upstairs is pretty limited, so in practice it mightn't matter much depending what you wanted to buy.
However, I buy quite a bit online from the Combat Company (mainly because they sell a lot of hobby materials that you can't buy from GW, like plasticard, airbrush stuff, etc.) and they have a 10% discount on GW products, which is useful for the larger items. However, I still buy from my local GW on an ad hoc basis or for the smaller things (like tac squads, HQs and paints). I figure it's a kind of fair way to do things, supporting both an independent and my local GW.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: It costs them work time dealing with a person who won't be buying anything but when they could be focusing on a customer who could be buying something.
It costs them store space where they could be teaching a potential new player how to paint and model.
No, it really doesn't. The two seconds it takes for the GW manager to greet you is not "costing them work time". You are, presumably, not standing on the table and asking the manager a hundred inane questions. If you were, my answer would be different. A random person coming in to paint does not suddenly create an infinite attention vortex.
At my local GW, I have never, ever seen the latter scenario occur. Even when four newbies at once come in, and the modelling space is almost full, the manager still manages to teach them adequately. And remember, every single slot in the P/M space is very rarely full due to people generally not coming in all day to paint. Most people either buy something and leave after a bit, or walk around and chat, or play games.
Because you didn't support the store you got it from. Why should they let you treat the store as a personal workspace when you're not helping the staff hit their targets and make sure they stay open?
Marketing. Full tables attract people. If a store is empty, it will get less business. If there are people painting, and people can walk up and see what they're doing and eat the eye candy, they're more likely to take an interest in the hobby. By the logic you're displaying, I should be feeling guilty for coming in with my GW models, because I keep them in a KR case, or paint them with W+N brushes, or prime them with Army Painter. You are attempting to use the logic that just because you didn't devote every step of the process to that one store, you're not welcome.
It is your hobby and your money, you are not obligated to buy where you play. I find it really strange that GW both distributes and sell their own product in their own store. The FLGS has to buy their product from GW at a discount and then resells it to cover their costs and overhead, whereas the GW store makes a much larger profit that goes straight to them. Yes they have overhead costs for the store but in the end they make a greater profit than your FLGS.
One thing I didn't explain enough in the OP was that I didn't plan to use the GW store's tools and paints for my stuff (also I don't think GW allows people to use the store paint like they did before)
I would obviously take all my kits and paints to do my things.
And obviously I wouldn't buy something from upstairs and then run down back to GW unpack the stuff and start building.
Some may ask why not just paint at home?
Personally I like painting and modelling while chatting with people and looking at what other people are doing for painting tips etc.
Oh and to add, would using a W+N series paintbrushes or non-GW equipment at a GW store draw attention in a bad way?
Sorry if my questions seem obvious but I've never had a situation like this before and I just want to be careful if you guys get where I'm coming from.
i think spikey bits did a review on paintbrushes and the W+N are fairly equal to GW's one line of brushes. If someone gives you flack over that tell them to go pound sand.
As I said before, no. I use my W+N paintbrushes, B&J brush soap, and random independent hobby tools at my store. I've never got flak unless I recommend them over GW tools in store, because that actually hurts business.
Overdose wrote: So currently I have a small dilemma.
I've recently returned to the hobby and was able to find a local GW store nearby with great staff and nice atmosphere.
In the same building one floor up there is a hobby store focused mainly on TCG like MTG but also have the GW products except at a cheaper price (10%).
Now I haven't actually been to the other hobby store but I've heard that it doesn't support the tabletop hobby that much(meaning no paint tables etc.).
IF I was to buy products from upstairs and take them downstairs to paint and assemble etc etc, would this be considered 'wrong'?
I mean 10% on small stuff ain't a lot but with the bigger boxed products 10% discount seems too good to not consider.
What do you guys think?
Any opinions?
I would get the deals as long as I could. Your store upstairs is living on borrowed time...
Others have said it, There is no right or wrong, but If you do it in such a way as to rub the GW stores face in it, you indirectly give the redshirts an issue that will put them in a position of possibly getting fired/ replaced.
If you do it smart, you go in with the stuff from upstairs in the GW boxes, in a GW bag. put together, paint and play, and go about your business. If you go upstairs to LGS#2, buy your models, paint or whatever, and then run downstairs and go into the store with the competitions bag/ product, and drop it down and start working on it/ unboxing, etc. you open up an issue for the Redshirts that they honestly will send you packing for.
Yes, your going to get a load of gak, expect it. BUT if you go in with the GW bag, with the GW stuff in said bag, they won't give you any static. (You heard it hear first.)
Go into a store without a recipet that you didn't buy it from? For what ever reason since it's a one man store, 1) the person should know he didn't buy it from him 2) if by chance the employee doesn't know he bought it, but sees you "unboxing" (put it in quotes since I am assuming you are meaning taking the shrink wrap off) the product he bought and knowing he didn't sell this kit to anyone, he can consider it theft. Then you have to explain and SHOW proof that you bought it upstairs then explain to why you didn't buy it from him. Yes it is understandable you want it cheaper, but then explain why are you using his store instead of going home to paint/model what ever.
See some people say GW needs to adapt and offer services if people are buying from other stores. Thing is, GW is offering a service. A place to paint and model. Or at least this store is. So why should the original poster get this service for free especially since the store he bought it from doesn't offer this service.
After all OP put yourself in the GW workers shoes. How would you feel someone comes in and didn't buy anything from you but using the stores paints and what not, and now you might not have a job because sales are going else where.
There is a reason why people say "pay where you play", or in your case "pay where you model". Now here is a question. Why are you going to the GW store instead of home to do your modelling and painting?
I'm going to say- No. Your wrong, and I'll tell you why.
GW does not care where you got the model from, it is a GW model at the end of the day. You are in a GW store, thereby helping to "Spread the word". They ( the worker Bees and Manager) care when you bring in a competitor's bag/ alternative game system and use their facilities. Your ideas that you discuss there in your response to me are arbitrarily your belief system. Players are under no obligation what-so-ever to "Pay where they play, model where they play, pay for the facilities.
GW has, at this time, unless they are built up a little differently in other locations- a small area to paint and model, a table or two to three, (at most) to play, a demo game area, and walls with products, and a register area with a couple of rows with books/ paints, modeling supplies, etc. Some things they may or may not have, and you are welcome to look them up on the computer terminal/ area with the catalog, where you can order them from your local store.
GW redshirts, ( or are they blue now?) are in the store to push product, GW product. If you come in with a GW bag, have a little conversation, and banter, and ask, they will likely let you go ahead and paint and model in their area, or play or hang out, as long as you want to, because you are a living, breathing sales tool of the product, showing OTHER people that you are a fan, and buy the products. In other words- They don't care. You are there, with the products, and you are another player/ modeler/ sales tool that can help to pimp out the product.
I know- because I asked, by the way.
They didn't have anything to say, but I used common courtesy, and took my GW stuff into a GW store and built and painted in their modeling and painting area, and even went so far as to trade some bits.... While we discussed the upcoming chaos stuff, the new cultists at the time, and the inner workings of the game. It isn't about being confrontational, either. Its about the modeling, playing, and interaction aspect, because once upon a time, GW pushed their store as "Gaming Centers".
Want to know another good thing for you to do? Not just bring your own stuff in to build, paint, and play, but to come in, and even donate some of your old paints, or bits.
( shudder...ohhh...) It goes a LONG way to have a good relationship with your local community, no matter what store you buy from, because all of the stores are interactive, and you know/ meet people who know each other and you.
The rest of your post pretty much answers itself. GW is pushing game systems, they aren't for TCG's, or RPG's, though I would wonder if the 40KRPG system would be cool, or old school fantasy, their tables are like three or four feet by five, or six. Not really enough room for expanded play or large scale awesomeness, but enough for a couple of one offs, or some interaction with your mates.
I'm saying that they don't care, but also that you shouldn't make it a point to rub your local GW employees face in it if you get a thing from somewhere else, out of common courtesy. We call that type of action- Biting the hand that feeds.
n0t_u wrote: If this is good games sydney they were there before the gw moved into the basement like space under them if I remember right so don't feel bad. That being said I don't play in either, the GW isn't local enough for me to play in thus I haven't really set foot in it, but I have been to that GG to pick up stuff a couple of times like dice or deck boxes.
Um, other way around, dude. The GW moved their store into that downstairs location when upstairs was a SF bookshop called "Galaxy" (I was there for the opening of both - GW moved across from the Hilton basement arcade because they were redeveloping the hotel site). It was where their FIRST "Battle bunker" in the country was located back in the late 90s. It also picked up the crowd from another store when the Matraville store closed (just prior to Apocalypse first coming out).
After Galaxy relocated, it became a music store, and after THAT closed down, GG started up in that venue as an expansion from their only other CBD store (railway square). Marty from that store got his start up here as a local boy. Props to Marty for building that crowd up.
How is this even still a discussion? The OP clearly states that the store he can get the discount from DOESNT HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY - there isn't a moral grey area here, it's a non-issue because both stores aren't equal in that regard.
If they were, 'play where you pay' would actually be applicable.
I would say that if you bought it from the GW store, then build it there. That's the polite thing to do.
If you like the atmosphere and staff of the GW why turn them sour against you?
But by all means, don't be afraid to shop where you can save the money, or better yet, find the model you want. The store above doesn't sound like he has much interest in the game, does that reflect in the variety of his GW models?
Frankenberry wrote: How is this even still a discussion? The OP clearly states that the store he can get the discount from DOESNT HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY - there isn't a moral grey area here, it's a non-issue because both stores aren't equal in that regard.
If they were, 'play where you pay' would actually be applicable.
And then he plays at the other place. Did you miss that. He is not paying where he plays.
Frankenberry wrote: How is this even still a discussion? The OP clearly states that the store he can get the discount from DOESNT HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY - there isn't a moral grey area here, it's a non-issue because both stores aren't equal in that regard.
If they were, 'play where you pay' would actually be applicable.
Thing is he implicitly said it wasn't about a place to play. I see buying the stuff upstairs and going into GW to play as no different than getting stuff online and going in to play. That's perfectly reasonable, otherwise ForgeWorld and online only stuff you ordered to your house should likewise not be allowed.
However this is about buying stuff one place and then going elsewhere to open it, assemble it and paint it. That's a slap in the face to the gw manager who can blatantly see you come in with product bought elsewhere, and taking up his guaranteed limited space.
It's rude to the store staff and it's rude to the customers who choose to buy their stuff there if you're giving literally nothing back to the store.
If you bought the stuff online or elsewhere build/paint it at home, or at least buy the supplies (glue etc.) From the place who's space you're taking up.
Chapter Master Angelos wrote: It's rude to the store staff and it's rude to the customers who choose to buy their stuff there if you're giving literally nothing back to the store.
Except the store in this case isn't a separate entity, it's part of GW. Talking about it as an individual store is like saying how, when you're at the grocery store, there's a moral difference between going to cash register #2 and cash register #7.
n0t_u wrote: If this is good games sydney they were there before the gw moved into the basement like space under them if I remember right so don't feel bad. That being said I don't play in either, the GW isn't local enough for me to play in thus I haven't really set foot in it, but I have been to that GG to pick up stuff a couple of times like dice or deck boxes.
Um, other way around, dude. The GW moved their store into that downstairs location when upstairs was a SF bookshop called "Galaxy" (I was there for the opening of both - GW moved across from the Hilton basement arcade because they were redeveloping the hotel site). It was where their FIRST "Battle bunker" in the country was located back in the late 90s. It also picked up the crowd from another store when the Matraville store closed (just prior to Apocalypse first coming out).
After Galaxy relocated, it became a music store, and after THAT closed down, GG started up in that venue as an expansion from their only other CBD store (railway square). Marty from that store got his start up here as a local boy. Props to Marty for building that crowd up.
Frankenberry wrote: How is this even still a discussion? The OP clearly states that the store he can get the discount from DOESNT HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY - there isn't a moral grey area here, it's a non-issue because both stores aren't equal in that regard.
If it was the Sydney CBD GW and the Good Games upstairs, then that GG store DOES have gaming space - miniature games have specific days when they get priority - tables, Boards, terrain, the works. If GW stopped doing the Battle bunker thing, I think it might even have MORE playing space (they've had at least 5 games of infinity going at once on days that I've been in (thursdays) and that uses about 2-3 times as much terrain as 40k or AoS, and it still doesn't use ALL of it).
Sure, weekends are going to be full of magic:the cash cow players, but that's pretty much how games stores stay afloat these days. They tend to have friday/saturdays for those (release days tend to be then at least).
Notice how its the same people saying its fine to buy your stuff elsewhere and then put them together in GW that are saying GW hasn't gotten better in the last year in the other post.
If GW choose to offer access to their painting or gaming tables without restriction, that's their choice, nobody is obligated to give them money if they also choose not to compete on price. If they want people to pay/buy something to use them, make that the policy and enforce it, otherwise both they and the rest of us should have nothing to say on the matter.
Of course it's the low thing to do. You don't buy a product from a store and then walk into a competing store and use their facilities to use the product. You should be kicked out for that. And as far as I was aware, it was there policy barring manager discretion. It's because of situations like this we lost the ability to use store supplied paints and materials.
Is it allowed? Then it's not a low thing to do, it's allowed. Is it not allowed? The issue is moot since it's not allowed and so won't happen.
There is no rational way to argue the OP's scenario would somehow be immoral because the scenario can only occur if his actions are considered permissable by the "competing store", and if they're fine with it what's it to do with you?
just because something is allowed, doesn't mean it isn't low
What?
This literally isn't even arguable, so I can't fathom how some of you have managed to convince yourself that it is.
If a store doesn't want people to use their tables, painting or gaming, with product purchased elsewhere they are entirely free and within their rights to make table use conditional on whatever terms they choose. They are entirely in control of the situation. So how on earth do you twist that so it's a customer's fault if they choose not to impose any conditions?
Particularly given we're talking about a GW store here, which are ostensibly supposed to be more than mere retail outlets, places designed to encourage and develop people's involvement with the hobby. I mean crikey, you guys realise that if we follow your hilarious "logic", then someone who gets GW models as a Christmas present that their family/friends bought from GW's own webstore online, they would be being "low" if they went in to a GW store for some painting lessons? That it would mean a regular GW customer who spends a fortune on the hobby would be being "low" if they went to the local GW's game night with their Death Korps of Krieg army from Forgeworld?
Get a haud o' yersels.
I never said you should buy everything at the place where you play/hobby, I just said that just because something is allowed, it doesn't mean its not low. So in other words, as far as I know, its not illegal to fart in someones face, but that doesn't mean its ok to do it. But if you play at a store I think you should support it, because even a GW store needs to make money if it wants to stay.
Deathklaat wrote: It is your hobby and your money, you are not obligated to buy where you play. I find it really strange that GW both distributes and sell their own product in their own store. The FLGS has to buy their product from GW at a discount and then resells it to cover their costs and overhead, whereas the GW store makes a much larger profit that goes straight to them. Yes they have overhead costs for the store but in the end they make a greater profit than your FLGS.
That's actually not true. In traditional retail chains you'd be right, but the turnover in gw stores is so low that they are better off selling at a discount and not incurring the overheads. I worked in one of the busier uk stores, (multi man, 7 day opening) and we couldn't take in a week what I used to turn over in a day when I managed a shoe shop. The only reason they haven't closed them all together is because they are very good for recruitment, which leads to tables...
I'd just be aware that no one has an entitlement to anything beyond what their money has purchased, so if you do go and use the tables, it's only an issue if you make one should they ask you not too.
Rolsheen wrote: Notice how its the same people saying its fine to buy your stuff elsewhere and then put them together in GW that are saying GW hasn't gotten better in the last year in the other post.
Notice how people who say it's immoral and wrong all say that GW has improved and is the bestest now?
I never play or have ever played in a GW, but buy where you like. GW want people buying direct they should work for it and not rely on guilt tripping.
Frankenberry wrote: How is this even still a discussion? The OP clearly states that the store he can get the discount from DOESNT HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY - there isn't a moral grey area here, it's a non-issue because both stores aren't equal in that regard.
If they were, 'play where you pay' would actually be applicable.
And then he plays at the other place. Did you miss that. He is not paying where he plays.
And that's only possible because the place where he plays allows that. Did you miss that? Because it seems everyone still seems to be sailing calmly past that one rather significant point - GW are the ones who control this situation, so if they're OK with it, what bloody right do any of you lot think you have to try and shame someone for going along with them to save themselves a bit of money?
Seriously, that's an actual question, I want a logical, rational explanation for why a customer is at fault for doing something that a store doesn't prevent them from doing. Not appeals to emotion about the poor, suffering GW staff member, not constantly restating the limitations you choose to impose on yourselves as if it makes you morally superior: explain how it is objectively wrong to take a GW product to a GW store to model, paint, and play with irrespective of where the product was bought, given it is evidently not GW company policy to prevent such behaviour.
Then explain how any such argument would not also apply to people who buy from the GW webstore rather than the local GW store, or from FW rather than the local GW store, or who get given models as gifts by people who didn't buy at the local GW store, and given that it would necessarily apply to all those, explain why you're still desperately clinging to this fallacious nonsense of an idea.
EDIT: And that was a general "you", it's not aimed at kronk specifically.
Rolsheen wrote: Notice how its the same people saying its fine to buy your stuff elsewhere and then put them together in GW that are saying GW hasn't gotten better in the last year in the other post.
Notice how people who say it's immoral and wrong all say that GW has improved and is the bestest now?
Why add on 'is the bestest now'?
Claiming that GW have improved and GW are the bestest are very different things.
In regards to the OP, I think it just depend on what you want. If you like having gaming and/or building space, then they should support the shop that offers that.
I like having a local place that offers gaming space, so I try to get what I want from them first before looking elsewhere.
Frankenberry wrote: How is this even still a discussion? The OP clearly states that the store he can get the discount from DOESNT HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY - there isn't a moral grey area here, it's a non-issue because both stores aren't equal in that regard.
If they were, 'play where you pay' would actually be applicable.
And then he plays at the other place. Did you miss that. He is not paying where he plays.
Maybe I wrote that wrong, what I was trying to say was:
They said they 'pay' at the store with the discount
Said store doesn't have a place to 'play'
Other store has an area to play but no discount
So making the argument they should 'play where they plays' doesn't make sense because they can't
What I'm trying to say I guess is that there isn't a moral aspect to this dilemma because both stores aren't equal in their ability to provide a gaming area. If they were, I could at least understand the need for the discussion.
I think Pay where you Play and this is a little different, if only because the product you are purchasing in that one store is still supporting the company that owns the other! Compare situations.
FLGS 1: You play here.
FLGS 2 : You pay here.
You play with your GW products at 1 but you spend your money at 2. You support 1 in no way.
GW Store: You play here.
FLGS: You pay here.
You may be spending your money at the FLGS, but it is a GW product, and thus you are supporting the company that runs the GW Store. Doesn't really help that store as much, but a healthy company is good for the retail locations.
The real head-scratcher is how the FLGS is able to offer a discount when the GW Store is right below them. If anything you'd normally expect something as direct as a GW store to be the one with the big discounts.
So I guess I am saying is that Pay Where You Play is a wonderful rule but especially in this circumstance it is a lot more grey. I'd just as the manager. If the place above has been around for a while with that discount, no doubt the GW Store Manager has been asked before.
For those who reply: I have never been to a GW Store, so I apologize if my ignorance is showing.
Rolsheen wrote: Notice how its the same people saying its fine to buy your stuff elsewhere and then put them together in GW that are saying GW hasn't gotten better in the last year in the other post.
GW gets the money either way it's not like he's buying 2nd hand then taking it to an independent store, neither option the OP presents harm's GW because they are still making 700% profit given it costs them pennies per sprue.
It's actually immoral to pay more than you have to in this case as your inflicting harm on yourself by paying retail and not getting the discount, the faceless corporation gets its money either way.
Chapter Master Angelos wrote: It's rude to the store staff and it's rude to the customers who choose to buy their stuff there if you're giving literally nothing back to the store.
Except the store in this case isn't a separate entity, it's part of GW. Talking about it as an individual store is like saying how, when you're at the grocery store, there's a moral difference between going to cash register #2 and cash register #7.
Presumably he's referring to the fact that he likes his manager and wants him to keep his job, rather than being worried that he's not giving GW as a whole his money.
Directed to people with similar posts:
It is not "bad" to buy things from stores other than your local GW. I try to save money wherever possible, but still buy paint, the occasional box set and direct only stuff from there because the community and my manager are pleasant (other than his FW Policy, which is understandable but annoying), and I view buying stuff from him as directly supporting him and his store.
Deathklaat wrote: I find it really strange that GW both distributes and sell their own product in their own store.
You mean really strange like Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Disney and any number of other "branded" stores?
As for the OP - buy what you want from where you want. But honestly, pay where you play and perhaps buy the bigger kits from upstairs but assemble them at home. Despite the pile of internet tough guy/contrarians/Cartman "I do what I want" types here, you clearly feel that it's the wrong thing to do or you wouldn't have posted the question here.
Deathklaat wrote: i think spikey bits did a review on paintbrushes and the W+N are fairly equal to GW's one line of brushes. If someone gives you flack over that tell them to go pound sand.
If you're essentially in their house and you tell them or anyone else there to "pound sand" then they have every right to tell you to feth right off out of there.
Having said that, a few points:
W&N gak all over GW's brushes which are merely decent. Regardless of what some reviewer says. Internet reviews said that Army Painter brushes were good as well and they're hot garbage.
You can probably get away with non-GW brushes, though.
However. Remember you're in a GW retail environment. I personally wouldn't bring non-GW paints in with the exceptions of, say, older GW paints and perhaps a small supplement of some odd homebrew paints/mixes and mediums.
I personally use way more Vallejo than GW these days, though I do still use GW, AP, Warpaints, Reaper, P3, etc, etc. But if in a GW store it's a dickish move to bring in your Vallejo or Army Painter sets. If you want more freedom to paint and build anything you like, set up a painting day with some guys at your place. It can actually be quite a lot of fun, and you're free to watch/listen to/use/drink/eat anything you like.
OTOH, If you want the companionship of working in a GW store, then respect it as you would anyone else's house. When I had a local GW, I'd buy paint and WD there as needed, as well as the odd blister or box, but it wasn't my main go-to for GW shopping. But then it was a tangential space in my hobby existence at best. I never went in there to play or paint, but would sometimes meet my wife at that mall after we both finished work to do some shopping, and as I worked much closer to the mall would kill time in there, and often enjoyed using my waiting time to chat and help people out with their painting and modelling. Always wished I had my own brushes with me (and clean water!) instead of other people's messed-up brushes but hey! So I do understand the enjoyment of painting in a store with others.
Just remember that the managers of those GW stores are under a lot of pressure to meet sales targets, and their jobs are pretty much always on the line. You don't sound like a FTW (in either sense) guy, so just respect the little community that you seem to have there.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Hmmm, I have an odd question to add - why paint at the GW?
Me, I paint all sorts of places, including fast food restaurants. (And run games in the food court at the mall.)
I am generally of the 'Pay Where You Play' mindset - and that includes eating at the place where I am painting.
I'm going to say that the GW has the community and other people that share the hobby. Also, I've read quite a few times that you paint at your local Burger King (or White Castle? one of those) - which is cool that you have that thing going locally - but you also have to recognise that it's far from usual right to the point of weirdness and likely to attract unwanted attention of the especially unpleasant sort in a lot of places around.
Seriously, that's an actual question, I want a logical, rational explanation for why a customer is at fault for doing something that a store doesn't prevent them from doing. Not appeals to emotion about the poor, suffering GW staff member, not constantly restating the limitations you choose to impose on yourselves as if it makes you morally superior: explain how it is objectively wrong to take a GW product to a GW store to model, paint, and play with irrespective of where the product was bought, given it is evidently not GW company policy to prevent such behaviour.
Put aside your righteous internet hate of GW as a corporation for a moment. Then look up affective empathy and imagine the full application of it in relation to the humans in the store, particularly the manager, who he has specifically said he likes and is a nice guy. Use your skills at cognitive empathy to do so.
If that fails and you can only think in terms of direct benefit to yourself and no-one else, than use Bottle's logic of wanting to keep the venue open and available as written above.
Maybe I wrote that wrong, what I was trying to say was:
They said they 'pay' at the store with the discount
Said store doesn't have a place to 'play'
Other store has an area to play but no discount
So making the argument they should 'play where they plays' doesn't make sense because they can't
What I'm trying to say I guess is that there isn't a moral aspect to this dilemma because both stores aren't equal in their ability to provide a gaming area. If they were, I could at least understand the need for the discussion.
You're being deliberately obtuse. Despite the two stores "inequality", he absolutely can "pay where he plays" (which is the more common phraseology). He just needs to change where he pays.
"pay where you play" = "play where you pay". Having a discount or table space is very specifically not a part of that equation, especially as it's the usual argument used between online shopping at a larger discount than a FLGS.
Korinov wrote: Long story short, whatever you do with your money, as long as you don't break any laws, is not wrong.
You are correct. It doesn't make it wrong. Thing is, it doesn't make it right either. In the end what makes it right or wrong is the person who this applies to. If the original poster thinks it's ok, then it's ok,. If he/she thinks it wrong, then it's wrong. Him/her even asking if it's ok answers it right there. He/she thinks it's wrong otherwise he/she wouldn't be asking.
Korinov wrote: Long story short, whatever you do with your money, as long as you don't break any laws, is not wrong.
Something can be legal but still wrong, and vice-versa. There are plenty of examples of unjust and "wrong" laws from all eras right up to today, but I'll just say "Godwin" and end that little tangential argument before it goes any further.
Maybe I wrote that wrong, what I was trying to say was:
They said they 'pay' at the store with the discount
Said store doesn't have a place to 'play'
Other store has an area to play but no discount
So making the argument they should 'play where they plays' doesn't make sense because they can't
What I'm trying to say I guess is that there isn't a moral aspect to this dilemma because both stores aren't equal in their ability to provide a gaming area. If they were, I could at least understand the need for the discussion.
You're being deliberately obtuse. Despite the two stores "inequality", he absolutely can "pay where he plays" (which is the more common phraseology). He just needs to change where he pays.
"pay where you play" = "play where you pay". Having a discount or table space is very specifically not a part of that equation, especially as it's the usual argument used between online shopping at a larger discount than a FLGS.
I'm not being deliberately anything, thank you.
I was looking at this backwards and you just clarified it - no reason to assume how I'm understanding something.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Free market, buy where you get the best deal. GW'll have to compete like any other company would.
They're competing by providing a better store experience - and that's paid for by the higher price per box. They could just go "yeah, you're only allowed to sit down here with boxes that you bought here" (see: any restaurant), but they're being nice about it. If you only care about the pricepoint thats fine, but don't complain once your local GW shuts down and your hobby space is gone. It was your choice after all.
That being said I mostly buy my stuff at 3rd party webstores at ~20% off, but I never stay at my local GW since we have an independent wargaming club where I play (and pay for membership) and I strongly prefer to paint/assemble at home. But I'll make sure to actually drive to the local GW and order there if i need GW webstore exclusive stuff.
nekooni wrote: They're competing by providing a better store experience - and that's paid for by the higher price per box.
Maybe in rare cases where the independent stores in the area don't support GW games, but not as a general rule. The GW store experience is worse in every way compared to a decent independent store. Higher prices, less gaming space, limited product selection, and ridiculous hours. Their only "advantage" is the artificial scarcity where they don't let independent stores sell some of their products, take away that and there's no reason to ever go into a GW store.
You're being deliberately obtuse. Despite the two stores "inequality", he absolutely can "pay where he plays" (which is the more common phraseology). He just needs to change where he pays.
"pay where you play" = "play where you pay". Having a discount or table space is very specifically not a part of that equation, especially as it's the usual argument used between online shopping at a larger discount than a FLGS.
I'm not being deliberately anything, thank you.
I was looking at this backwards and you just clarified it - no reason to assume how I'm understanding something.
Fair enough - the way you'd written it appeared completely as though you were being deliberately obtuse in the typical way that people are in these arguments - and indeed are being so in this thread. As it appears that was not the case, I apologise.
And here's an example of the very same:
nekooni wrote: They're competing by providing a better store experience - and that's paid for by the higher price per box.
Maybe in rare cases where the independent stores in the area don't support GW games, but not as a general rule. The GW store experience is worse in every way compared to a decent independent store. Higher prices, less gaming space, limited product selection, and ridiculous hours. Their only "advantage" is the artificial scarcity where they don't let independent stores sell some of their products, take away that and there's no reason to ever go into a GW store.
We're not talking about a "generalised GW vs FLGS that supports the hobby" here. We're talking specifically about the two stores in the OP's experience. The LGS that sells GW with 10% off, but does not support gaming or playing, and the GW store next to it with friendly staff and a community that the OP enjoys spending time with to the point of preferring to assemble and paint in store. The advantages in this specific case are clear. Your generalised dislike of GW stores is misplaced and useless in this thread as the LGS offers none of the "added value" that you're going on about. By your own words, this is one of those "rare cases" and there doesn't seem to be a "maybe" involved.
You're being deliberately obtuse. Despite the two stores "inequality", he absolutely can "pay where he plays" (which is the more common phraseology). He just needs to change where he pays.
"pay where you play" = "play where you pay". Having a discount or table space is very specifically not a part of that equation, especially as it's the usual argument used between online shopping at a larger discount than a FLGS.
I'm not being deliberately anything, thank you.
I was looking at this backwards and you just clarified it - no reason to assume how I'm understanding something.
Fair enough - the way you'd written it appeared completely as though you were being deliberately obtuse in the typical way that people are in these arguments - and indeed are being so in this thread. As it appears that was not the case, I apologise.
And here's an example of the very same:
nekooni wrote: They're competing by providing a better store experience - and that's paid for by the higher price per box.
Maybe in rare cases where the independent stores in the area don't support GW games, but not as a general rule. The GW store experience is worse in every way compared to a decent independent store. Higher prices, less gaming space, limited product selection, and ridiculous hours. Their only "advantage" is the artificial scarcity where they don't let independent stores sell some of their products, take away that and there's no reason to ever go into a GW store.
We're not talking about a "generalised GW vs FLGS that supports the hobby" here. We're talking specifically about the two stores in the OP's experience. The LGS that sells GW with 10% off, but does not support gaming or playing, and the GW store next to it with friendly staff and a community that the OP enjoys spending time with to the point of preferring to assemble and paint in store. The advantages in this specific case are clear. Your generalised dislike of GW stores is misplaced and useless in this thread as the LGS offers none of the "added value" that you're going on about. By your own words, this is one of those "rare cases" and there doesn't seem to be a "maybe" involved.
Confusion was entirely on my side of things, thanks for clearing things up.
Overdose wrote: So currently I have a small dilemma.
I've recently returned to the hobby and was able to find a local GW store nearby with great staff and nice atmosphere.
In the same building one floor up there is a hobby store focused mainly on TCG like MTG but also have the GW products except at a cheaper price (10%).
Now I haven't actually been to the other hobby store but I've heard that it doesn't support the tabletop hobby that much(meaning no paint tables etc.).
IF I was to buy products from upstairs and take them downstairs to paint and assemble etc etc, would this be considered 'wrong'?
I mean 10% on small stuff ain't a lot but with the bigger boxed products 10% discount seems too good to not consider.
What do you guys think?
Any opinions?
So, you've "heard" (you haven't actually asked?) that they don't support the tabletop hobby ?
If it IS the Good Games upstairs from GW town Hall, then they not only DO allow people to paint models in there (I've seen several miniature painters working on their stuff IN the store, at one of the rear tables. Marty, the manager should be able to set you straight.) they also have boards AND terrain for playing the games.
Miniatures have specific gaming days, though (40k has one, infinity has one, etc). You will have to supply your own paints and glue/tools, but you have to do that for GW anyway (GW stopped doing it because people were abusing the "privilege" and taking pots of paint - and also the tools home ).
Is it allowed? Then it's not a low thing to do, it's allowed. Is it not allowed? The issue is moot since it's not allowed and so won't happen.
There is no rational way to argue the OP's scenario would somehow be immoral because the scenario can only occur if his actions are considered permissable by the "competing store", and if they're fine with it what's it to do with you?
You do know rules and laws in general don't deal with morals and ethics? So "just because it's allowed by law means it's ethical" doesn't fly.
Azazelx wrote: We're not talking about a "generalised GW vs FLGS that supports the hobby" here. We're talking specifically about the two stores in the OP's experience. The LGS that sells GW with 10% off, but does not support gaming or playing, and the GW store next to it with friendly staff and a community that the OP enjoys spending time with to the point of preferring to assemble and paint in store. The advantages in this specific case are clear. Your generalised dislike of GW stores is misplaced and useless in this thread as the LGS offers none of the "added value" that you're going on about. By your own words, this is one of those "rare cases" and there doesn't seem to be a "maybe" involved.
But we are talking about the general case, at least in the post I responded to. Saying "GW competes by offering a better experience to justify higher prices" presents it as a case of GW deliberately using that strategy and having a successful business plan. In reality GW's strategy is to provide a terrible experience and high prices, they just happened to have the sheer luck to be in a situation where their closest competition doesn't provide a great experience either. And, based on chromedog's comment, it seems like GW isn't even doing that much, the OP is just mistaken about the state of the independent store.
Let's not forget GW goes out of their way to destroy independent stores by deliberately delaying deliveries while their own stores have the item day one.
hobojebus wrote: Let's not forget GW goes out of their way to destroy independent stores by deliberately delaying deliveries while their own stores have the item day one.
No they don't, do they stock their own stores first yes as does every other company in the world. Saying they deliberately delay orders is nonsense.
Rolsheen wrote: No they don't, do they stock their own stores first yes as does every other company in the world. Saying they deliberately delay orders is nonsense.
Obviously there's no proof (or GW would be in some serious legal trouble), but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that GW has done exactly that. GW opens a store in the same area as successful independent stores, and suddenly the independent stores have trouble getting inventory even when there's no apparent supply problem for stores in general. The only real question is whether GW still does this, as most of the stories seem to be years in the past.
"Wrong?"...meh. That can be debated until the cows come home and even then there will always be two sides to the debate left standing.
I will just say that 10% isn't much of a discount. Frankly, it's not something that even pops up on my radar. You can get 20% off, or better, just about everywhere on the web, Ebay, Dakka Swap Shop, etc. so is all I have to say to that offer.
Back OT, with my opinion of said FLGS discount being that it's not worth the time and GW being a center for the exclusive enjoyment and support of tabletop gaming, hobbying and camaraderie for only 10% more, I don't think there's a debate. Support where you play. If funds are that tight, sure, I understand, but back to my original comment that you can do better than 10%.
It's wrong. Your local GW runs off of its customers. Every purchase you make online or at some next store hurts your local GW. If it wasn't for your money, there would be no free painting or gaming tables for you to use and no Games Workshop for you to visit.
123ply wrote: It's wrong. Your local GW runs off of its customers. Every purchase you make online or at some next store hurts your local GW. If it wasn't for your money, there would be no free painting or gaming tables for you to use and no Games Workshop for you to visit.
Then maybe GW should think about offering a 10% discount to compete with the local independent store instead of asking for charity donations from its customers.
(Plus, see earlier comments about how GW stores going out of business is a good thing for the community.)
Rolsheen wrote: No they don't, do they stock their own stores first yes as does every other company in the world. Saying they deliberately delay orders is nonsense.
Obviously there's no proof (or GW would be in some serious legal trouble), but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that GW has done exactly that. GW opens a store in the same area as successful independent stores, and suddenly the independent stores have trouble getting inventory even when there's no apparent supply problem for stores in general. The only real question is whether GW still does this, as most of the stories seem to be years in the past.
Even recently I've heard accounts of GW not being reliable in completing what they say they'll do. Like not being able to get the quantity of stock agreed upon previously or not at the agreed time. I've had the experience of ordering GW products from an FLGS and the store owner being given the run around on when the stock would actually arrive. It probably happens more to smaller stores who don't order as much, but it is a bad practice either way.
123ply wrote: It's wrong. Your local GW runs off of its customers. Every purchase you make online or at some next store hurts your local GW. If it wasn't for your money, there would be no free painting or gaming tables for you to use and no Games Workshop for you to visit.
It's likely that the GW store you frequent was put there with the express knowledge and purpose to take business away from an otherwise successful local store (that's probably still ordering GW product). They often use sales numbers from stores in the area to decide where to place their own stores. So in this case, perhaps it's not wrong to buy elsewhere.
GW local stores are part of a brand awareness thing/undercutting tactic. If you're still playing GW games, it's okay to hang out there and play. They're owned and operated by GW, period.
Sucks for the manager though since you're not helping their numbers, but that's the life of a one employee store. It's not going to be pretty for him either way.
I personally wouldn't like doing what the OP mentioned. I buy from other retailers/sites online, but I wouldn't bring my models into my local GW and use their space to build/paint said models.
I completely understand the points others have raised, but for me it doesn't sit right.
I'm not a fan of GW business practices, but my local GW Manager is a pretty decent guy, so i'm happy to buy what I can at his store (mainly paints) to help support him personally.
D4V1D0 wrote: I personally wouldn't like doing what the OP mentioned. I buy from other retailers/sites online, but I wouldn't bring my models into my local GW and use their space to build/paint said models.
I completely understand the points others have raised, but for me it doesn't sit right.
I'm not a fan of GW business practices, but my local GW Manager is a pretty decent guy, so i'm happy to buy what I can at his store (mainly paints) to help support him personally.
They get the money either way, those sprues your buying for £10 cost them pennies to produce their profit margin selling to independents at 55% is still huge.
Rolsheen wrote: No they don't, do they stock their own stores first yes as does every other company in the world. Saying they deliberately delay orders is nonsense.
Obviously there's no proof (or GW would be in some serious legal trouble), but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that GW has done exactly that. GW opens a store in the same area as successful independent stores, and suddenly the independent stores have trouble getting inventory even when there's no apparent supply problem for stores in general. The only real question is whether GW still does this, as most of the stories seem to be years in the past.
There's been issues here since the GW store moved into the mall a mile away. Not a constant thing, but there's been several instances where we can't get something because it's bsckordered or got messed up or something but the GW guy just got a dozen in.
D4V1D0 wrote: I personally wouldn't like doing what the OP mentioned. I buy from other retailers/sites online, but I wouldn't bring my models into my local GW and use their space to build/paint said models.
I completely understand the points others have raised, but for me it doesn't sit right.
I'm not a fan of GW business practices, but my local GW Manager is a pretty decent guy, so i'm happy to buy what I can at his store (mainly paints) to help support him personally.
They get the money either way, those sprues your buying for £10 cost them pennies to produce their profit margin selling to independents at 55% is still huge.
This is just "giving the middle finger to GW" talk. Who is they? The GW store is not getting the money at all. GW corporate? Yes they get the money either way. Again, the store employee now just lost a sale and is going to even have a harder time now to meet his quota.
While off topic but still appropriate about the GW store not getting a sale, if you buy something that the GW store sells but yet order it online and pick it up at the store, that is a lost sale for the store since the don't get no money for it at all. That is 100% going to cooperate or at least GW online store.
I have a FLGS which offers 8% discount via a 5€ voucher you get every 60€ of purchases.
Not big and not significant, especially compared to the online discounts you can get... BUT I almost exclusively play there so I get all my supplies and models from them that they stock (with the exception of brushes. I aint buying GW brushes).
It's just... fair. I use their services for free, so I "pay" with buying from them.
That's not what the guy was asking. He was saying about buying the stuff from the hobby store and then going down stairs to use the GW's facilities to build, paint etc as the hobby shop doesn't support that. That's trying to take advantage of free facilities without supporting the actual GW.
Which in essence is the same to purchasing online for bigger discount and then using FLGS their facilities to play.
Buy elsewhere, use their stuff.
I pay where I play.
Or in this casem I pay where I paint.
D4V1D0 wrote: I personally wouldn't like doing what the OP mentioned. I buy from other retailers/sites online, but I wouldn't bring my models into my local GW and use their space to build/paint said models.
I completely understand the points others have raised, but for me it doesn't sit right.
I'm not a fan of GW business practices, but my local GW Manager is a pretty decent guy, so i'm happy to buy what I can at his store (mainly paints) to help support him personally.
They get the money either way, those sprues your buying for £10 cost them pennies to produce their profit margin selling to independents at 55% is still huge.
This is just "giving the middle finger to GW" talk. Who is they? The GW store is not getting the money at all. GW corporate? Yes they get the money either way. Again, the store employee now just lost a sale and is going to even have a harder time now to meet his quota.
While off topic but still appropriate about the GW store not getting a sale, if you buy something that the GW store sells but yet order it online and pick it up at the store, that is a lost sale for the store since the don't get no money for it at all. That is 100% going to cooperate or at least GW online store.
No my middle finger is giving money to their competition I don't buy GW products anymore.
It's not up to the customer to support a shop it's up to the shop to entice you to buy from them, the customer never owes any company a living.
D4V1D0 wrote: I personally wouldn't like doing what the OP mentioned. I buy from other retailers/sites online, but I wouldn't bring my models into my local GW and use their space to build/paint said models.
I completely understand the points others have raised, but for me it doesn't sit right.
I'm not a fan of GW business practices, but my local GW Manager is a pretty decent guy, so i'm happy to buy what I can at his store (mainly paints) to help support him personally.
They get the money either way, those sprues your buying for £10 cost them pennies to produce their profit margin selling to independents at 55% is still huge.
This is just "giving the middle finger to GW" talk. Who is they? The GW store is not getting the money at all. GW corporate? Yes they get the money either way. Again, the store employee now just lost a sale and is going to even have a harder time now to meet his quota.
While off topic but still appropriate about the GW store not getting a sale, if you buy something that the GW store sells but yet order it online and pick it up at the store, that is a lost sale for the store since the don't get no money for it at all. That is 100% going to cooperate or at least GW online store.
No my middle finger is giving money to their competition I don't buy GW products anymore.
It's not up to the customer to support a shop it's up to the shop to entice you to buy from them, the customer never owes any company a living.
So imagine there are two FLGS in your area and one has a nice big store with tables and a painting area and the other one doesn't, it's really this tiny cramped store with no space at all for anything but product shelves, but they have a "we undercut the other FLGS by 10%!" policy instead: Are you going to buy your stuff at the cheaper store then walk over to the other FLGS, sit down and start assembly of your freshly purchased miniatures? And think that's just fine?
*edit* Don't get me wrong - you really don't "owe" a company anything. But if everyone behaves like that the nice, big store with tables will have to close down and that's your own fault then.
I personaly think its moraly wrong to use a store and not buy anything from it however i would buy the larger stuff from upstairs ie £80 then build it or at least start on it else where . Then i would have no problem using the gw store . The gw store does get somthing from it because the store looks full and busy which genrates intress as does your building painting ect .
More than being "wrong" or "right", it's more a question about if you wish to keep the staff you like at this store or not. Because their job depends on how much they sell each month. If the shop isn't profitable, it will be closed and you can suck yourself to find another place to paint and build your models for "free".
Since you buy GW products, GW as a whole won't really care about that. However, supporting the place where you often go and have fun is good not only for you, but also for the guy(s) who manage(s) this place as well.
I do a lot of shopping around to find deals on my 40k stuff, but when I got out to play somewhere and we use their tables and their terrain than I feel like I should buy at lease something. Paint, brushes, more models, and or other games. Just something to contribute to that store.
I get 10% off at my LGS and I barely shop there anymore (I've spent my fair share keeping it open, imo). Like mentioned earlier, there are several ways to get better discounts. Emotional appeals don't work on me because it's not my responsibility to keep stores in business, it's on them to provide me incentives to shop there, and it just so happens that independent retailers offering me upwards of 30% off RRP is the kind of incentive I look for now. I play at the LGS, I play at the local GW, I will occasionally buy small things at the GW (but only after an interaction with the manager about said product, i.e. we're talking about paints and he convinces me on a color or something - I consider that him "making the sale," and so I'll give him the money for it), and still buy things at the LGS here and there, but the majority of my hobby shopping is done with discounts in mind, now.
If I were to lose either store, it would be disappointing, but not disappointing enough to look at an $800 charge and a $1000 charge and choose to pay the $1000.
People are gonna hit you with the "10% isn't enough to justify walking upstairs and not supporting the GW," and you're going to have to make your own decision on that. 10% covers taxes, gives you more money to buy more product, or just leaves some in your bank account, whatever you prefer.
GW provides a space to play/paint/assemble, and unless they attach conditions to it, there are no conditions. You just being there playing/painting helps the store by improving its image.
Also, LOL bigtime @ the comment about "If the store owner sees you come in with product, take off the cellophane and begin assembling he can just accuse you of theft because you don't have a receipt proving you purchased it." In that instance, I would proudly show the receipt from the other store - that hypothetical is nothing but a poor scare tactic.
I skimmed through a fair amount of this thread, so apologies if some of this is duplicate. This is intended as practical advice to the OP and not as a response to anything anyone in particular has said.
Full disclaimer... I used to be a GW store manager about 10 years ago. I no longer work in retail.
Points...
1. The GW tables are intended as a free courtesy for paying customers OF THAT STORE. The Store Manager doesn't get paid based on GW's corporate sales. He gets paid based on his own sales. If you're not buying stuff at his store, you're not a paying customer and the tables aren't really there for your use. Having said that, it's always better for business if the store looks busy. As a a manger, I'd happily let anyone use the 'hobby table' to assemble and paint models purchased elsewhere with the understanding that if actual paying customers come in and need space... well, you're going to lose your seat. Paying customers have to take priority. Same for the gaming tables. If we both know you got all your models from another store or off eBay, etc, don't expect priority and do expect to occasionally get shifted when someone else needs a table. If you don't like that, go elsewhere. It's not like I'll lose sales when you leave.
2. Pay where you play is a saying for a reason. If you like having tables to play on, support the business. Not buying models at the GW store will, in the long run, cause the GW store to close. Yes, you'll still get your models upstairs for 10% off, but you'll have nowhere to play. Yes, you can always find a new place, but if you don't support that new place, you'll be in the same boat.
3. If you have to ask if something is wrong, it usually is. Justify how you want, but you're taking advantage of a store's hospitality while actively undermining its viability. That feels wrong to me. At the very least, it's a jerk move.
D4V1D0 wrote: I personally wouldn't like doing what the OP mentioned. I buy from other retailers/sites online, but I wouldn't bring my models into my local GW and use their space to build/paint said models.
I completely understand the points others have raised, but for me it doesn't sit right.
I'm not a fan of GW business practices, but my local GW Manager is a pretty decent guy, so i'm happy to buy what I can at his store (mainly paints) to help support him personally.
They get the money either way, those sprues your buying for £10 cost them pennies to produce their profit margin selling to independents at 55% is still huge.
This is just "giving the middle finger to GW" talk. Who is they? The GW store is not getting the money at all. GW corporate? Yes they get the money either way. Again, the store employee now just lost a sale and is going to even have a harder time now to meet his quota.
While off topic but still appropriate about the GW store not getting a sale, if you buy something that the GW store sells but yet order it online and pick it up at the store, that is a lost sale for the store since the don't get no money for it at all. That is 100% going to cooperate or at least GW online store.
No my middle finger is giving money to their competition I don't buy GW products anymore.
It's not up to the customer to support a shop it's up to the shop to entice you to buy from them, the customer never owes any company a living.
So imagine there are two FLGS in your area and one has a nice big store with tables and a painting area and the other one doesn't, it's really this tiny cramped store with no space at all for anything but product shelves, but they have a "we undercut the other FLGS by 10%!" policy instead: Are you going to buy your stuff at the cheaper store then walk over to the other FLGS, sit down and start assembly of your freshly purchased miniatures? And think that's just fine?
*edit* Don't get me wrong - you really don't "owe" a company anything. But if everyone behaves like that the nice, big store with tables will have to close down and that's your own fault then.
False equivalency fallacy right there, we are not talking about independent stores but a GW store that's not under the same preasures.
Buying from the net or a flgsGW makes money so you should not feel guilty for playing at their stores with their products.
D4V1D0 wrote: I personally wouldn't like doing what the OP mentioned. I buy from other retailers/sites online, but I wouldn't bring my models into my local GW and use their space to build/paint said models.
I completely understand the points others have raised, but for me it doesn't sit right.
I'm not a fan of GW business practices, but my local GW Manager is a pretty decent guy, so i'm happy to buy what I can at his store (mainly paints) to help support him personally.
They get the money either way, those sprues your buying for £10 cost them pennies to produce their profit margin selling to independents at 55% is still huge.
This is just "giving the middle finger to GW" talk. Who is they? The GW store is not getting the money at all. GW corporate? Yes they get the money either way. Again, the store employee now just lost a sale and is going to even have a harder time now to meet his quota.
While off topic but still appropriate about the GW store not getting a sale, if you buy something that the GW store sells but yet order it online and pick it up at the store, that is a lost sale for the store since the don't get no money for it at all. That is 100% going to cooperate or at least GW online store.
No my middle finger is giving money to their competition I don't buy GW products anymore.
It's not up to the customer to support a shop it's up to the shop to entice you to buy from them, the customer never owes any company a living.
So imagine there are two FLGS in your area and one has a nice big store with tables and a painting area and the other one doesn't, it's really this tiny cramped store with no space at all for anything but product shelves, but they have a "we undercut the other FLGS by 10%!" policy instead: Are you going to buy your stuff at the cheaper store then walk over to the other FLGS, sit down and start assembly of your freshly purchased miniatures? And think that's just fine?
*edit* Don't get me wrong - you really don't "owe" a company anything. But if everyone behaves like that the nice, big store with tables will have to close down and that's your own fault then.
False equivalency fallacy right there, we are not talking about independent stores but a GW store that's not under the same preasures.
Buying from the net or a flgsGW makes money so you should not feel guilty for playing at their stores with their products.
You're also working under some false assumptions. You need to stop equating the local GW store to GW Corporate. They're not the same. The local store will suffer if it doesn't make sales and its employees will lose their jobs just as they would if they worked at an FLGS that wasn't making sales.
Super high level...
Let's assume it costs GW $30 to produce, package and ship to a store a $100 MSRP item. Let's also assume that GW gives stores a 40% off retail discount when ordering, so they're effectively selling that $100 item to a store for $60.
FLGS Scenario: FLGS purchases the item for $60. GW has spent a total of $30 selling the product. GW makes $30 profit.
"Good" GW Store Scenario: GW store purchases the item for $60. GW store spends an additional $30 in payroll/rent/etc to sell the product for $100. GW Overall has now spent a total of $60 selling the product. GW Overall makes $40 profit. Better than a FLGS. But...
"Bad" GW Store Scenario: GW store purchases the item for $60. GW store spends an additional $50 in payroll/rent/etc to sell the product for $100. More is spent because fewer customers are buying things and it takes longer to make the same sale. GW Overall has now spent a total of $80 selling the product. GW Overall makes $20 profit. Worse than a FLGS.
Super simplified, but you can see how in the OP's situation, shopping elsewhere and then just using the facilities creates a "bad" GW store scenario. GW WILL close that store when the lease is up. If the OP is ok with losing that gaming space, keep shopping elsewhere. If he wants to keep the gaming space, shop at the GW store. It's a value proposition. Is the 10% price difference worth more or less than having somewhere to game?
hobojebus wrote: It's not up to the customer to support a shop it's up to the shop to entice you to buy from them, the customer never owes any company a living.
That is true and you are correct. But the thing is, the GW store is enticing you to buy there because it offers a place to paint for the OP and game for others. If the GW store closed down, the OP doesn't have a place to paint now since he said the other store doesn't do this and it's enticing people by offering a discount. So both stores are enticing.
Usually I am sour on GW so surprised I am defending them here, or more to the fact I think I am defending the Pay where you play/paint debate instead of actually saying shop at GW. So I still say it's not the right thing to do.
The places where I play offers GW products, but the gaming scene is so dead here (like 4 players in the town) that their stuff is all old and they don't bring in new product unless you order it through them (i did once and it took nearly a month for the product to arrive, so I'm not doing that again). I buy paints and glue from them and use their tables, but I don't buy models from them. I don't feel bad however, because I'm a long time customer and buy most of my other hobby stuff from them (video games, tcgs). There's nothing inherently wrong about seeking the best deal, but if you are going to use their facilities, buy something from them, even if it is just paints and glue.
Catfiish wrote: The places where I play offers GW products, but the gaming scene is so dead here (like 4 players in the town) that their stuff is all old and they don't bring in new product unless you order it through them (i did once and it took nearly a month for the product to arrive, so I'm not doing that again). I buy paints and glue from them and use their tables, but I don't buy models from them. I don't feel bad however, because I'm a long time customer and buy most of my other hobby stuff from them (video games, tcgs). There's nothing inherently wrong about seeking the best deal, but if you are going to use their facilities, buy something from them, even if it is just paints and glue.
I agree completely with your last sentence. If you want to use the 'free' facilities, buy something.
If I was a GW manager, and you just went upstairs, bought your models, then came downstairs and took up valuable space in my store to build, paint, and play with said models my store didn't make any money off, I would tell you to feth off.
ShieldBrother wrote: If I was a GW manager, and you just went upstairs, bought your models, then came downstairs and took up valuable space in my store to build, paint, and play with said models my store didn't make any money off, I would tell you to feth off.
But that's just me.
And after doing that in front of other customers you'd probably be selling even less product
Funnily enough I used to play at the local GW while buying most my stuff at the local FLGS, I did that back when I didn't really care about the GW employees/managers. Now the GW manager is a nice and friendly guy I feel bad and so stopped playing there while I don't buy there.
End result? The store gets even less of my money because before I at least occasionally impulse buy stuff while I was in there playing a game.
Personally I think if stores want to make money off their tables they should just charge for their use. That's what the store down the road does and I have no problem paying a few bucks to use a table for an evening.
Using the guilt method to try and get people to buy in your store isn't a great business practice IMO. I'll support the local store if I feel like supporting the local store, whether or not they provide tables doesn't make a huge difference to me.
Unfortunately for GW stores, I don't feel much compulsion to buy from them and would sooner see them closed than pay full price at a GW store.
ShieldBrother wrote: If I was a GW manager, and you just went upstairs, bought your models, then came downstairs and took up valuable space in my store to build, paint, and play with said models my store didn't make any money off, I would tell you to feth off.
But that's just me.
As a former GW manager, it's more like...
If they go upstairs, buy stuff, then come downstairs to hobby, you take them aside and tell them that the facilities are for paying customers and if a paying customer needs their seat, they'll get it. Also, if they mention that product can be purchased elsewhere at a discount, they're out of the store. It's one thing to purchase elsewhere and use in my store. It's another to actively undermine the store by suggesting customers shop elsewhere. It's a delicate balance. A packed shop sells more product than an empty shop, but you still need to purge toxic community members.
Really, just set ground rules. The wording is different, but these were two of mine. Worked out fine 99% of the time.
1. The hobby and gaming tables are primarily for paying customers. If you buy things in my store, you get first dibs on the tables. If you bought them elsewhere, you can still use the tables, but only if they're free. If there is a waiting list, you get bumped down the list. 2. There will be absolutely zero tolerance of talking about buying things that I sell elsewhere. This is a business, not a gaming club. Anyone undermining the store by suggesting customers shop elsewhere will be asked to leave.
You need to balance being an open and welcoming community with the greater need to make a profit. If you can't make a profit, it doesn't matter how many people hang out in your store. The rent man doesn't care about occupancy. He cares about rent.
Have you tried asking at the FLGS is there are any local clubs ? Those tend to be where communitys grow rather than the scorched and salted earth of GW mandatory and regulated fun of 'GW be all of the hobby, all else is heresy and witchcraft"
Turnip Jedi wrote: Have you tried asking at the FLGS is there are any local clubs ? Those tend to be where communitys grow rather than the scorched and salted earth of GW mandatory and regulated fun of 'GW be all of the hobby, all else is heresy and witchcraft"
Gaming clubs don't tend to be a thing in North America. You either play in a store or at home. It's rare to find a gaming club. They do exist, but are few and far between. North American gaming communities tend to be centered on stores. A good FLGS if you're lucky. GW if you're not. Then again, the majority of North Americans will never see a GW store. There are so few with most states having no stores.
Maybe but I figured as OP flag shows OZ, a price per SQ/M issue would arise leading to smaller FLGS's and maybe a club culture (yes OZ is huge but its really only able to support humans about 50miles in-land!)
I think that's quite the major difference between UK and US that larger stores means you don't have to club, yes the UK has some sizeable stores but they even they tend to be city-centric as that's the size of customer base you need to be viable
I agree, game clubs are rare in the states and most games workshop stores are small. Our local GW has two tables and the building size should only have one..
So if there is games going with 8-10 people in the store, you just hope everyone has showered and has deodorant before coming to the store.
If the original poster has concern try to find a neutral place to play..plus if you keep your purchases to the other store why shouldn't the store you are playing
at charge for tables.. because if you are doing it.. more than likely other players are doing it also
I've started to see a lot of people post "is this wrong??" forum questions.. I just don't know how to take this.. has morality gone away that much??
So next week we will see.. "I can not afford Games Workshop.. Should I rob a bank??"
I could be considered a "sap" but I figure if you use the facilities of a business, they should get your business.
I believe in rewarding "good behavior".
I have my own dilemma with my FLGS.
Their stuff is about 30% more expensive (the markup is a wee bit greedy) than a place up the road BUT the FLGS hosts a huge play area.
I find the big ticket items greater than $100 I go up the road, incidental stuff or the odd $30-$60 kit I will buy at the FLGS.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Maybe but I figured as OP flag shows OZ, a price per SQ/M issue would arise leading to smaller FLGS's and maybe a club culture (yes OZ is huge but its really only able to support humans about 50miles in-land!)
Most of the GW shops around here are actually quite large, larger than the ones I went to while I was in the USA. Even the one in the city centre where rent must be a fortune is quite large (though I noticed they moved out of the shopping district a few years ago and in to the business district).
But the OP isn't in the same city as me, so maybe they're smaller in Sydney.
There are plenty of clubs as well though, and a few dedicated gaming stores that have proper large areas for gaming with 10+ tables.
For the most part i buy from my store i play at, the only stuff i dont get from it is brushes, primer, non gw models, and afew other things. i would feel bad though if i bought everything online or in other stores though.
Talizvar wrote:I could be considered a "sap" but I figure if you use the facilities of a business, they should get your business.
I believe in rewarding "good behavior".
I have my own dilemma with my FLGS.
Their stuff is about 30% more expensive (the markup is a wee bit greedy) than a place up the road BUT the FLGS hosts a huge play area.
I find the big ticket items greater than $100 I go up the road, incidental stuff or the odd $30-$60 kit I will buy at the FLGS.
I feel for you. I am like you. I don't know if it's a 30% mark up where I buy, he just charges what the GW site charges. So no mark up there. I could have saved about $100 by driving 2 hours, (1 hour there, 1 hour back) and I bought it from my FLGS at full price. The way I see it, when we did have comic stores selling GW product but then they all closed up shop so for over 10 years the only way to buy GW stuff was through the interent or driving else where. Now I have a store open up shop, I can buy from him, and we have a place to play now.
So I out weigh, saving a $100, collecting dust in my basement and not get no games, or pay full price, collect dust in my basement, but now I can get gaming now. So a lot of times at least form me, the savings are not really savings when I can't get no games and be motivated to just model anymore like I did for the last 10 years or more. Maybe that is why I have such a huge collection downstairs collecting dust. No motivation to model paint since I can't get any games. Ironically now I can get games but have other issues that prevent me from modelling and painting now. :(
PrehistoricUFO wrote: I feel like I'm loitering if I don't give some business to the places I hobby/game in.
I'll buy, at the very least, a paint pot. Pretty much the cheapest thing that I can use.
This is how I feel as well. The only time I buy models as the GW are when they're web-only (so they get some credit), but other than that I don't actually buy models from GW directly at all. I buy all my paint there though.
I've started to see a lot of people post "is this wrong??" forum questions.. I just don't know how to take this.. has morality gone away that much??
So next week we will see.. "I can not afford Games Workshop.. Should I rob a bank??"
Short answer. it's pretty bad, part of the reason my local FLGS shut up was people buying online and then using the limited tablespace, this was over a decade ago and the 'special snowflake' culture has only gotten worse since
Rolsheen wrote: No they don't, do they stock their own stores first yes as does every other company in the world. Saying they deliberately delay orders is nonsense.
Obviously there's no proof (or GW would be in some serious legal trouble), but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that GW has done exactly that. GW opens a store in the same area as successful independent stores, and suddenly the independent stores have trouble getting inventory even when there's no apparent supply problem for stores in general. The only real question is whether GW still does this, as most of the stories seem to be years in the past.
I have to agree with Perry here. This definitely was a thing in the past that I have firsthand experience of. More recently (but before Saturday became release day), it happened in a slightly different way - the GW store would get their stock in advance on the release date, so it was ready to be on shelf at opening time, while the indy stockists could (and often did) get their stock on opening day. Theoretically it was to prevent indies breaking street date and so "equal", but indy stores need to unpack, inventory, etc - and the GW stock going from delivery box to the shelf isn't their highest priority in an operating multi-product line business.
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BigWaaagh wrote: "Wrong?"...meh. That can be debated until the cows come home and even then there will always be two sides to the debate left standing.
I will just say that 10% isn't much of a discount. Frankly, it's not something that even pops up on my radar. You can get 20% off, or better, just about everywhere on the web, Ebay, Dakka Swap Shop, etc. so is all I have to say to that offer.
Discount culture is significantly different outside the US. OP is located in Australia - so there's also shipping if he buys from eBay, the GW embargo to deal with, etc. There are ways around the embargo, but they're not as simple as just choosing what you want to purchase and buying it. I've been trying to get a few things for literally months with no luck - and sometimes you can miss out on products entirely if you want to play the online buying game.
Back OT, with my opinion of said FLGS discount being that it's not worth the time and GW being a center for the exclusive enjoyment and support of tabletop gaming, hobbying and camaraderie for only 10% more, I don't think there's a debate. Support where you play.
I'm a big supporter of pay where you play - if they have it. This is made easier at my FLGS which serves hot food, so I'll spend the equivalent of a small purchase buying a burger, chips and drink while playing games. Better than giving it to a nearby fast food chain.
They make it hard with general purchases. I'll look there first, but their stock is fairly limited for the games I play and I work a short distance from the retail outlet of one of the southern hemispheres biggest online stores, so general purchases usually go to them. But that's, again, only after knowing that my FLGS doesn't have what I want. All pre orders go through the FLGS though, and they generally pre-empt me by asking if I want to pre order any upcoming Infinity stuff.
Initially, my thoughts were that it wouldn't bother me to buy game stuff in one store (or online, as I generally do), and play in another - especially if the store you normally buy from doesn't has play space (whether upstairs or online).
However, after some thought, it did strike me that this is akin to ordering from Domino's pizza and going to eat it at Pizza Hut. Most people would consider that at least rude, and I'd imagine the store owner would be within his right to ask an offender to leave.
I think the smart thing to do for the store owner would be to give out a card or other token for free play at the tables (counts as part of purchase - maybe have a "good 'til" date), and administer a small table charge for those who don't purchase from the store. That'd give folks like me, who often buy online because the store doesn't keep certain items/lines in stock, a place to play, but still help covering the month-to-month rent.
o.O I see that false story is still growing legs here....
There is nothing "WRONG" at all, stop putting that line of thinking out there. Its a miniatures paint and play game, why on earth is that line of thought even entertained?
If you ask the manager, and not be blatantly obvious about it. They are GW products, its a GW store. Nothing to do with that at all. Some of these white knights are acting like your bringing in a Mantic army to a GW store, or Warmahordes... Please put away that sword, before someone falls on it.
GW stores are not even like they used to be, its not like your kicking a puppy here. One or two tables, and a small area to paint/ build the kits at... hardly enough to shut the store down over... just because you bring in a couple of units to put together.
Smart thing is to honestly- Ask if its cool. Its not like the OP was being a nutter over it in any sense of the word. Chastising the idea is even beyond the pale of common sense and into the oversensitive. (Heaven forbid you save any money on an already over expensive game, because you get a small discount in another location... What exactly are you getting that line of thinking?)
And that line about "Pay where you play... where exactly are you discussing? What GW store are you talking about where you have been recently that is honestly like that anymore? I want to see pictures of that one.
There isn't even enough room in these stores to walk sideways in, let alone have more then a couple of games going on it, AND the hobby aspect. They have already, for the past couple of years, killed that dead horse.
There is also, nothing "Free" about those stores BTW. From entry to exit, the hard sell is the order of the day. Just because you can even bring anything to paint/ play with anyway is a testament to how cool that your particular store is. I'd bring in that stuff without a second thought if it was part in parcel of my GW hhhobby army.
Remember, "GW HHHobby centers..." Save the defenseless shopkeep from the evil of saving a couple of dollars! LOL!
You playing at a GW store is free advertising for GW. They should be paying you, especially if your army is painted to a high standard.
So long as someone else sees you having fun, you are creating a positive brand impression for a corporation. No one is going to remember your name, no one is going to think about the fact you took up some space for a few hours, the only positive thing that could come from it all is someone else deciding they want to engage in the hobby.
That said, I help run a friend's FLGS and get product at cost. Pretty much the only thing I can't buy cheap is Forgeworld. There is a sense of community at the FLGS, with the tournaments we organize. We don't care about where someone bought something, we care about having a large enough base of players that people will remain interested in the hobby.
When I play at a GW store, it's an act of protest. The shopkeep doesn't let me use any of my Forgeworld units or non-GW cultist models - he inspects every model I put on the board before the game starts. He comes over to force me to listen to bad advice about winning with CSMs, mostly as a way of punishing me for being there. He is constantly telling me about new things I have to have and offering to ring me up right now.
In response, I take as long as humanly possible at the table, ask all the questions I can about rules every time he is with a customer, I argue about RAW and RAI as obnoxiously as possible with whomever I am playing - often taking both sides in the same game. I leave cards for the FLGS in the bathroom and stuck to the bottom of scenery detailing the discounts over store prices. The cards have a map for how to get to the store, you can walk it when the weather is nice.
There are other dimensions to the relationship. He knows what I am there for, I know what he is there for, it's a stupid game of cat and mouse. But I would never buy anything from the GW store.
Stormonu wrote: Initially, my thoughts were that it wouldn't bother me to buy game stuff in one store (or online, as I generally do), and play in another - especially if the store you normally buy from doesn't has play space (whether upstairs or online).
However, after some thought, it did strike me that this is akin to ordering from Domino's pizza and going to eat it at Pizza Hut. Most people would consider that at least rude, and I'd imagine the store owner would be within his right to ask an offender to leave.
I think the smart thing to do for the store owner would be to give out a card or other token for free play at the tables (counts as part of purchase - maybe have a "good 'til" date), and administer a small table charge for those who don't purchase from the store. That'd give folks like me, who often buy online because the store doesn't keep certain items/lines in stock, a place to play, but still help covering the month-to-month rent.
For that analogy to work you'd need to be taking mantic models to play 9th age at a GW store.
GW is in no way the victim here they are making money either way.
techsoldaten wrote: In response, I take as long as humanly possible at the table, ask all the questions I can about rules every time he is with a customer, I argue about RAW and RAI as obnoxiously as possible with whomever I am playing - often taking both sides in the same game. I leave cards for the FLGS in the bathroom and stuck to the bottom of scenery detailing the discounts over store prices. The cards have a map for how to get to the store, you can walk it when the weather is nice.
If you don't mind paying a little extra compared to your FLGS discount you can also order stuff online and have it delivered to his store. The local GW employee here keeps begging people to come into the store and use the in-store order point to buy their online orders because otherwise it doesn't count towards the employee's sales quotas. Nothing says " you" like going out of your way to make sure someone doesn't get credit for a sale. Except saying " you" to them directly, I guess.
Peregrine wrote: If you don't mind paying a little extra compared to your FLGS discount you can also order stuff online and have it delivered to his store. The local GW employee here keeps begging people to come into the store and use the in-store order point to buy their online orders because otherwise it doesn't count towards the employee's sales quotas. Nothing says " you" like going out of your way to make sure someone doesn't get credit for a sale. Except saying " you" to them directly, I guess.
Yeah, but then I have to give him my phone number and he gets to snoop through my purchases. I have seen him going through boxes and calling people to tell them to come pick up their stuff. He's always complaining that the mail orders delivered to his store don't count towards his quota and talking to people on his phone keeps him from running his store. When he does get on the phone, the conversation lasts about 10 seconds and is devoid of anything resembling friendliness. People sometimes call him back because he rushes through conversations so fast they can not understand him.
I have also caught him arguing with people when something goes missing more than once, likely because he put the kit in the wrong bag and gave it away to someone else. People will take the same box off the shelf and ask if they can have it to complete their order. His response is no, call customer service, which I suppose is the only thing he can actually do once the order is that screwed up.
The other thing about the GW store is the army cabinets. Some stores invest in putting up nice models, but not this one. The house armies are a Warhammer Empire army which shouldn't even exist anymore, and an Imperial Fists army that looks like it was painted with Elmer's Glue and Crayola markers. I tell him he should learn to paint if he's going to sell things for people to paint, and he tells me I just don't understand his style (which could be best described as Stucco.)
To make up for it, he's constantly nagging people to put their armies on display in his cabinet. The cabinet has an front facing door with a broken lock anyone can open, and it's right next to the front door. Models have vanished from there a few times, which makes sense when you think about the fact a) he doesn't get to sell them so he doesn't really care and b) people would be more likely to steal the nice models instead of the Ronald McDonald marines he keeps around. There is a nice looking Fire Raptor sitting in the cabinet right now, in this store where FW is forbidden. I think the only reason it's still there is because people know he will get all over their case if they try to use it on the tables.
So no, I don't need to spend money there and there is nothing wrong with that. Spending money would just make the problem worse. My job is to entertain myself for a few hours by tormenting the shopkeep, playing a game, or both.
Peregrine wrote: If you don't mind paying a little extra compared to your FLGS discount you can also order stuff online and have it delivered to his store. The local GW employee here keeps begging people to come into the store and use the in-store order point to buy their online orders because otherwise it doesn't count towards the employee's sales quotas. Nothing says " you" like going out of your way to make sure someone doesn't get credit for a sale. Except saying " you" to them directly, I guess.
Yeah, but then I have to give him my phone number and he gets to snoop through my purchases. I have seen him going through boxes and calling people to tell them to come pick up their stuff. He's always complaining that the mail orders delivered to his store don't count towards his quota and talking to people on his phone keeps him from running his store. When he does get on the phone, the conversation lasts about 10 seconds and is devoid of anything resembling friendliness. People sometimes call him back because he rushes through conversations so fast they can not understand him.
I have also caught him arguing with people when something goes missing more than once, likely because he put the kit in the wrong bag and gave it away to someone else. People will take the same box off the shelf and ask if they can have it to complete their order. His response is no, call customer service, which I suppose is the only thing he can actually do once the order is that screwed up.
The other thing about the GW store is the army cabinets. Some stores invest in putting up nice models, but not this one. The house armies are a Warhammer Empire army which shouldn't even exist anymore, and an Imperial Fists army that looks like it was painted with Elmer's Glue and Crayola markers. I tell him he should learn to paint if he's going to sell things for people to paint, and he tells me I just don't understand his style (which could be best described as Stucco.)
To make up for it, he's constantly nagging people to put their armies on display in his cabinet. The cabinet has an front facing door with a broken lock anyone can open, and it's right next to the front door. Models have vanished from there a few times, which makes sense when you think about the fact a) he doesn't get to sell them so he doesn't really care and b) people would be more likely to steal the nice models instead of the Ronald McDonald marines he keeps around. There is a nice looking Fire Raptor sitting in the cabinet right now, in this store where FW is forbidden. I think the only reason it's still there is because people know he will get all over their case if they try to use it on the tables.
So no, I don't need to spend money there and there is nothing wrong with that. Spending money would just make the problem worse. My job is to entertain myself for a few hours by tormenting the shopkeep, playing a game, or both.
After reading all this I'm seriously looking for The Big Lebowski (with appropiate meme)...
You should absolutely go upstairs and support the independent store, and get 10% off whilst doing it. Worrying about supporting GW over an Independent, is like worrying about supporting Walmart over your local greengrocer. Those SoBs couldn't care less about you, they'd gouge you for everything you have, given half a chance. You don't owe them anything.
I have found something strange in the "relationship" with my FLGS: They seem to get into a falling out with the companies I WANT game stuff from.
I like 40k, for a few months here and there they do not order from GW because they made the FLGS owner angry for some reason.
I like X-wing but for some reason he cannot / will not get their product in due to some distribution issue.
Plus some toy store down the road is the cheapest place around for FFG stuff and it seems it is because of whatever falling out with the distributor had happened.
He had some Malifaux stuff and now there is nothing.
He allows ALL games for in-store play and most I like he either has limited selection or none at all.
The store IS in Bolt Action in a big way but almost everything is the starter boxes so anything different I have to order from Warlord games.
There is a pretty big Pathfinder group and I see almost nothing for the game.
The owner plays with a large group with the latest D&D and again... very little to be found.
I try to buy his stuff but unless I develop a serious Magic the Gathering habit, he is making it actively difficult to support his shop.
As best I can tell, MTG is the #1 thing that is keeping his doors open and it is huge missed opportunities having active gaming and no product in-store.
Jacksmiles wrote: And to the people saying it's like buying food at one place and eating it at a totally different chain, that's not true, either.
You're taking GW product to a GW to assemble/paint/play.
If you want to use the food analogy, it's actually more like buying McDonald's in a Walmart then taking it to a McDonald's to eat it.
Not really. You need to seperate GW Corporate from GW retail stores. They're not the same thing. Also, I'll guarantee that second McD's manager wouldn't be happy if he was consistently paying rent, employees, electric, etc just to provide people a place to eat food they bought elsewhere... even at another McD's.
No different from any other gaming store, really. GW gaming stores are just unique in that they only sell one manufacturer's products and they happen to be owned by that manufacturer. In pretty much all other ways, they're the same as any other gaming store. They have to make sales to pay employees, pay rent, pay for new product and pay the bills. If you're doing something that undermines the manager's ability to do these things, expect to be asked to leave. The store owner isn't going to keep the store open if it's not turning a profit.
It boils down to this...
If keeping the GW store open is a priority, purchasing elsewhere but using the store's facilities is a bad decision because it undermines your priority.
The stores will stay open or close down at the whim of the market. This is really more of a question about whether or not there is a moral or ethical issue with using a for-profit business's facilities, provided to encourage sales, with no intention of ever buying anything from said business. The business in question being the downstairs GW store and NOT GW Corporate.
Based on a lot of the replies here I think that the safe move would be to open a store called "Paints & Glue". As a retailer you have no incentive to tie up your finances by carrying inventory that people want to buy elsewhere, so you should focus your business model exclusively on the peripheral purchases of convenience hobby items, soda, chips and candy bars. Basically following a model similar to how small closet sized gas stations operate. Without retail space you could run the business in a very small location further letting you reduce your business costs as you won't need shelves or anything beyond a single employee as all you need is about 10 square feet of junk food and a paint rack, it's amazing just how wrong game stores have been approaching the business all these years.
Oddly enough, there was a hobby group that rented out a space under a corner store in the basement.
They had vending machines, rented storage space, monthly membership fee, printed apparel and affiliations with a hobby shop and a pizza place.
They actually would make a profit and use the extra for annual tournaments at the local veteran's hall and have money left over for prizes.
I have seen some gaming coffee shops taking off but they are more board game places.
I think a pleasantly lit space with nice chairs and tables could do well.
If you happen to sell stuff on the side, all the better.
Then the space can be booked for occasions for a minimal fee.
I have visions of the coffee-shop front, a warehouse in the back and you could order like in Lee Valley: from the store catalogue and have it brought to you (minimize theft too!).
I think keeping a nice looking well maintained space (and well ventilated!) would be key.
A good space off to the side would be for the various "hangers-on" that are not into gaming and are waiting on someone who is.
MTG night, LAN parties... gaming birthday parties are conceivable.
A proper ventilated booth for priming models... to be able to provide services people who live in apartments or less than understanding parents may be the thing.
Peregrine wrote: If you don't mind paying a little extra compared to your FLGS discount you can also order stuff online and have it delivered to his store. The local GW employee here keeps begging people to come into the store and use the in-store order point to buy their online orders because otherwise it doesn't count towards the employee's sales quotas. Nothing says " you" like going out of your way to make sure someone doesn't get credit for a sale. Except saying " you" to them directly, I guess.
This does not happen, or if it does, happens infrequently enough that I'm not in when it happens. In my experience, he only mentions it when people ask about making orders from in-store. Not sure exactly why anyone would choose to ship to a GW store instead of their house.
Yeah, but then I have to give him my phone number and he gets to snoop through my purchases. I have seen him going through boxes and calling people to tell them to come pick up their stuff. He's always complaining that the mail orders delivered to his store don't count towards his quota and talking to people on his phone keeps him from running his store. When he does get on the phone, the conversation lasts about 10 seconds and is devoid of anything resembling friendliness. People sometimes call him back because he rushes through conversations so fast they can not understand him.
I have also caught him arguing with people when something goes missing more than once, likely because he put the kit in the wrong bag and gave it away to someone else. People will take the same box off the shelf and ask if they can have it to complete their order. His response is no, call customer service, which I suppose is the only thing he can actually do once the order is that screwed up.
The other thing about the GW store is the army cabinets. Some stores invest in putting up nice models, but not this one. The house armies are a Warhammer Empire army which shouldn't even exist anymore, and an Imperial Fists army that looks like it was painted with Elmer's Glue and Crayola markers. I tell him he should learn to paint if he's going to sell things for people to paint, and he tells me I just don't understand his style (which could be best described as Stucco.)
To make up for it, he's constantly nagging people to put their armies on display in his cabinet. The cabinet has an front facing door with a broken lock anyone can open, and it's right next to the front door. Models have vanished from there a few times, which makes sense when you think about the fact a) he doesn't get to sell them so he doesn't really care and b) people would be more likely to steal the nice models instead of the Ronald McDonald marines he keeps around. There is a nice looking Fire Raptor sitting in the cabinet right now, in this store where FW is forbidden. I think the only reason it's still there is because people know he will get all over their case if they try to use it on the tables.
So no, I don't need to spend money there and there is nothing wrong with that. Spending money would just make the problem worse. My job is to entertain myself for a few hours by tormenting the shopkeep, playing a game, or both.
Kriswall wrote: Not really. You need to seperate GW Corporate from GW retail stores. They're not the same thing. Also, I'll guarantee that second McD's manager wouldn't be happy if he was consistently paying rent, employees, electric, etc just to provide people a place to eat food they bought elsewhere... even at another McD's.
Of course they're the same thing. Unlike the McDonald's franchise the GW store is a wholly-owned part of GW. There is no franchise owner with control over rent, employees, etc, who gets whatever profit the store makes (after paying the franchise fees). GW corporate handles all of the rent/salaries/etc, GW corporate takes all of the profit, and GW corporate absorbs any losses. The GW store "manager" is hired by GW corporate to run the cash register and interact with employees, just like any other low-level retail worker.
They have to make sales to pay employees, pay rent, pay for new product and pay the bills.
No they don't, not at all. The employee's salary is paid by GW. Rent is paid by GW. Bills are paid by GW. New product is delivered by GW, not purchased like an independent store purchases inventory. If the store fails to make enough money nobody goes bankrupt, GW simply pays more than that particular store is bringing in. They could continue doing that indefinitely if they wish, and probably will until the lease is up.
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Verviedi wrote: This does not happen, or if it does, happens infrequently enough that I'm not in when it happens. In my experience, he only mentions it when people ask about making orders from in-store.
Check the store's facebook page.
Not sure exactly why anyone would choose to ship to a GW store instead of their house.
IIRC you can get free shipping to a store on an order that won't qualify for free shipping to your house. Or spite.
Verviedi wrote: This does not happen, or if it does, happens infrequently enough that I'm not in when it happens. In my experience, he only mentions it when people ask about making orders from in-store.
Check the store's facebook page.
Not sure exactly why anyone would choose to ship to a GW store instead of their house.
IIRC you can get free shipping to a store on an order that won't qualify for free shipping to your house. Or spite.
-EDIT- Found it, didn't scroll down enough.
Oh, thank you. I didn't know that. I'll have to make use of that the next time I order something. Granted, this will probably occur sometime in 2035. I'd love it if I could ship FW to the store for free shipping, but alas...
Jacksmiles wrote: And to the people saying it's like buying food at one place and eating it at a totally different chain, that's not true, either.
You're taking GW product to a GW to assemble/paint/play.
If you want to use the food analogy, it's actually more like buying McDonald's in a Walmart then taking it to a McDonald's to eat it.
Not really. You need to seperate GW Corporate from GW retail stores. They're not the same thing. Also, I'll guarantee that second McD's manager wouldn't be happy if he was consistently paying rent, employees, electric, etc just to provide people a place to eat food they bought elsewhere... even at another McD's.
It's more consistent of an analogy, however. The second manager may not be happy, but you're still eating McD's in a McD's. It's closer to how the situation actually plays out - the "eating Burger King in a McDonald's" would apply better if OP was building Malifaux or another game system entirely in the GW, which is understandably against company policy. Plus the analogy breaks when GW invites us to hobby in their stores without a requirement, whereas restaurants actually don't want you to bring outside food in.
This is really more of a question about whether or not there is a moral or ethical issue with using a for-profit business's facilities, provided to encourage sales, with no intention of ever buying anything from said business.
True. But being there when no one else is, or when others are and making it look more full, it still serves the purpose of encouraging sales, even if those sales aren't coming from you, doesn't it?
Real question: Are GW store employees truly given the level of decision-making people are asserting with their "I'd tell you to feth right off" statements? Like, what happens when the customer calls corporate GW to complain about a manager kicking them out for building GW products at the GW hobby station in the GW store?
I agree that you should buy product at the FLGS if you have one as, if you don't, then you will no longer have a FLGS. And you need to buy more than paint/candy as they make no profit on that stuff. My problem is that 40K has gotten so expensive that I find myself buying almost exclusively off ebay for the simple fact that I buy everything I can used anymore. I do buy my x-wing stuff and supplies at the FLGS and I am planning on picking up the Scarab Occult Termies there.
I buy 90% of my stuff online. But EVERYTIME I use a store to play I purchase $10-$50 worth of product (unless there is an entry fee for an event, then I pay that). It's my way of saying thank you for letting me play here and being available for me to do so.
There is one dedicated Independent Retailer where I live, there used to be a few bookstores that sold Warhammer but when my FLGS moved to its current location it bought up all the Warhammer minis being sold by any store around (thats how you keep sales up kids)
But i mostly use FW models now, so I buy stuff online.
I Buy local for most everything. the exceptions are quick sale items that I know my store will not have a chance of getting, like the deathwatch dice, skaven scramblers dice, ect.
In my opinion it entirely depends on the store. I've seen a lot of stores that barely stocked anything or encouraged the game; why would I bother to buy anything then where I have to order it and wait weeks for it to arrive and then pay full retail price for it anyways?
As a general rule, I place orders of several large things online almost 100% of the time because for bulk purchases the discount means I can often add another thing entirely. For single box purchases (e.g. I want a new box of X), paints (unless it's a specific range I need a specific color for) and the rest, I'll buy at the shop if they have it.
I find it peculiar that wargaming continues to want to thrive in an era where you go to a game shop to play, instead of having a club and simply using space somewhere. I've seen far too many stores that would become hostile if you dared to play a game they didn't stock (e.g. if you wanted to play Infinity at a store that didn't stock it, you'd be given dirty looks as though you are "stealing" from them), that stock nothing and doesn't support a game beyond "I have tables". IMHO just having tables isn't enough to get people to give you their business.
Kriswall wrote: Not really. You need to seperate GW Corporate from GW retail stores. They're not the same thing. Also, I'll guarantee that second McD's manager wouldn't be happy if he was consistently paying rent, employees, electric, etc just to provide people a place to eat food they bought elsewhere... even at another McD's.
Of course they're the same thing. Unlike the McDonald's franchise the GW store is a wholly-owned part of GW. There is no franchise owner with control over rent, employees, etc, who gets whatever profit the store makes (after paying the franchise fees). GW corporate handles all of the rent/salaries/etc, GW corporate takes all of the profit, and GW corporate absorbs any losses. The GW store "manager" is hired by GW corporate to run the cash register and interact with employees, just like any other low-level retail worker.
Wow... how absolutely insulting to anyone who has ever run a retail establishment. Being characterized as a "low-level retail worker" hired to "run the cash register and interact with employees" shows either a shocking lack of understanding or an utter disdain for people you consider beneath you. I used to run a Games Workshop store. I also used to run small retail electronics stores. I've had a number of other jobs and currently work as a project manager at one of the largest private banks in the world. The retail management jobs were the hardest and most demanding thus far. I respect a successful retail manager a hell of a lot more than I respect most of the people in my current field. Most people I know would never make it in the long run as a retail manager.
A store operator has to wear so many different hats. To name just a few... 1. Customer Service Rep 2. Community Manager/Event Planner 3. Tournament Referee 4. HR guy (hiring/training/arranging cover for illness/vacation) 5. Trainer 6. Salesperson 7. Stockboy 8. Janitor 9. Register Guy 10. Hobbyist (assembling/painting store stuff) 11. etc, etc
The store operator has to do all of this for comparatively little pay, knowing that if he doesn't run a profitable operation, the store will close and he'll lose his livelihood. Getting sick means missing your goals. Going on vacation means missing your goals.
Now, you don't have to care about this guy. You don't have to participate in making him successful... but, c'mon man. Don't be a jerk and make his life harder by taking advantage of all the background work he does with no intention of ever buying anything. You may sleep better at night by telling yourself that you're using GW's tables and not this manager's tables, but who do you think cleaned the table the night before, planned and organized the events you're playing in, assembled and painted the terrain on the table you're using?
Just my thoughts. Obviously, everyone feels differently, but DO NOT make the mistake of thinking that a GW store manager/operator is just a register jockey who's been trained to rattle off certain sales phrases. It's insultingly uninformed and makes you sound like a jerk, which I'm assuming was not your intent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jacksmiles wrote: Real question: Are GW store employees truly given the level of decision-making people are asserting with their "I'd tell you to feth right off" statements? Like, what happens when the customer calls corporate GW to complain about a manager kicking them out for building GW products at the GW hobby station in the GW store?
Entirely depends on your regional manager guy and your relationship with him. When I was there and someone complained, my boss would call me and ask what happened. I'd tell him and he'd just say "cool, just make sure you're considering impact on the community as a whole". That was it. Over the course of my working there, I had to ask several people to never come back. It happens. I can think of two specific examples where I told someone they needed to either buy something once in a while or hobby at home. One of them was a little embarrassed and started buying stuff once a month or so. The other threw a fit, called corporate and was shocked when I wasn't immediately fired. He never came back, which was a non-issue because he wasn't a paying customer. That's the key. If you're not a paying customer of Store X, my experience is that GW Corporate doesn't really care how you feel about Store X.
Don't forget a plumber.. I known a FLGS owner for a long time..
He is always amazed how some people can break a toilet.
But if you are not buying anything from the store or very little and other gamers
know the same trick.. how long do you think the store will last with no income
or a reason to continue stocking items that don't sale.
A store operator has to wear so many different hats. To name just a few...
1. Customer Service Rep
2. Community Manager/Event Planner
3. Tournament Referee
4. HR guy (hiring/training/arranging cover for illness/vacation)
5. Trainer
6. Salesperson
7. Stockboy
8. Janitor
9. Register Guy
10. Hobbyist (assembling/painting store stuff)
11. etc, etc
The store operator has to do all of this for comparatively little pay, knowing that if he doesn't run a profitable operation, the store will close and he'll lose his livelihood. Getting sick means missing your goals. Going on vacation means missing your goals.
And this is why "low-level retail worker" hired to "run the cash register and interact with employees" is kinda correct (in the context to GW, the corporation). GW doesn't pay them for all the other stuff you mentioned (they just expect it to be done). It surely sucks for the people working there (especially in one-man stores) but it doesn't look like GW cares and you, the consumer, are not obligated to buy something just make their life easier (just in general, not talking about the morality of buying all your stuff online and then playing at a store).
In this relationship they are just low-level retail worker because while they have many responsibilities they don't have much (or any?) real power.
I think a good example would be
Ive brought a nearly new car lets say a bmw from a private seller. Now bmw have already made the money from the sale of the car and i got it cheaper which is good for me . Now can i go and hang out in there show rooms and just chill out on there comfy sofas all day sitting in the diffrent cars .
Some people coming in to the store to buy a bmw mite have to wait for me to move so they can look around a car or mite go else where to sit on a comfy sofa to decide if there going to buy the car .Im pretty sure that i would be told to leave.
The tables and painting stations are there for the use of paying customers there a bonus you get for buying things from them.
Gw are not providing you a rent and bill free space to use for you own enjoyment .
Another point gw have already made the money once the flgs has order it. It dosnt really matter if you buy it or not .
its not down to gw to provide you with the paint station
its the flgs that should be giving you that bonus if you buy from them.
Now.on gaming nights ect then its diffrent as the store is inviting you to play games its activly ask for players
Even homless shelters arnt free they rely on donations
it does make me wonder why just because you have brought an effectivly second hand product or a second hand product you get to have a free place to "live" for a couple of hours
Thats why i say moraly its wrong because you are taking somthing that was not intended for you to have
Gw dosnt advertise free paint station time as far as im aware
ian wrote: I think a good example would be
Ive brought a nearly new car lets say a bmw from a private seller. Now bmw have already made the money from the sale of the car and i got it cheaper which is good for me . Now can i go and hang out in there show rooms and just chill out on there comfy sofas all day sitting in the diffrent cars .
Some people coming in to the store to buy a bmw mite have to wait for me to move so they can look around a car or mite go else where to sit on a comfy sofa to decide if there going to buy the car .Im pretty sure that i would be told to leave.
The tables and painting stations are there for the use of paying customers there a bonus you get for buying things from them.
Gw are not providing you a rent and bill free space to use for you own enjoyment .
Another point gw have already made the money once the flgs has order it. It dosnt really matter if you buy it or not .
its not down to gw to provide you with the paint station
its the flgs that should be giving you that bonus if you buy from them.
Now.on gaming nights ect then its diffrent as the store is inviting you to play games its activly ask for players
Even homless shelters arnt free they rely on donations
it does make me wonder why just because you have brought an effectivly second hand product or a second hand product you get to have a free place to "live" for a couple of hours
Thats why i say moraly its wrong because you are taking somthing that was not intended for you to have
Gw dosnt advertise free paint station time as far as im aware
Games Workshop store ad, on the GW site as per their discussion, not mine.
Seriously, your discussing a game store and the moral ambiguity of playing with the toys.
GW has gaming, hobby and painting in the stores. Each and every one has this, its part of the "Charm".
The reason that they PROVIDE this service is to increase the hobby, and sales. It is a sales gimmick, and in turn helps to promote the hobby aspect. If your local GW manager is saying a thing about it, he will soon be an EX manager. All he cares about is a sales target, if you get some stuff from store A, and some stuff from store B, no one cares. seriously. If you think other wise, please join the real world. That store is in that specific location, BTW to COMPETE with your local FLGS's. Its not there just because GW thought it was a nice place to work. They did a cost analysis, sales targeting, and crunched numbers. You have a game community, they spend XYZ, GW wants a cut. AND they judge it a good investment to get in on your local area. Seriously.
BMW, like GW, is a luxury Item. using the false narrative of a moral ambiguity is a lot like someone begging for change on the street, only to find out that they are a millionaire. Or more like one of those Mega churches, begging for your chump change and last dollar as they pass the plate around, while someone goes home in a Limo.
The GW "HHHobby Centers" are part in parcel to the charm of the "HHHobby". From the horses mouth, it is a hobby center and store, designed to push the hobby, sells the product and be a general all around pitch to increase the popularity of the hobby. If the Manager is not doing that, He will also be an Ex GW employee.
Your Example of the BMW is on par, seeing as the last time I was in one, I not only got a cup of good coffee, but the BMW's were there to be taken for a ride, and the sales person was not in there to sell Hondas. The cup of coffee is equal to the painting/ modeling stations, The game play area is along the lines of the nice couch to sit on. BOTH of these companies are international companies, they do not haggle about small change. ( I.E. bringing in a model and putting it together, painting it, and playing in the store, As long as it is a GW model. Shoe would be on the other foot if I was to go to a BMW store with a Honda, and have them work on it while I sit in the store, looking at a magazine that I brought in about Honda's. OR in line with me bringing in Warmachine, and playing a game on their table.
And to the "Ex GW employee", I say nuts to that as well. You know that that was a false dichotomy, especially when we are talking about a company that has on occasion called its "Valued Customers" Plebes, Yokels, and the clever other gifs that they spout off about as they act morally superior to other low wage employees in sales and store work. Get over it, its a minimum wage sales job for temporary work. NOT a serious "career", unless you cut your teeth right. (Just like any other employment.)
Here is an overview of how they operate from Indeed.com , and here is the strongest statement yet of the working psychology-
" The stores are, at time of writing, mostly one-man shows. This means that you are responsible and in charge 99% of the time, which is as good and as bad as it sounds. The other significant aspect of the business model is the company's vision of the stores as "hobby centers." This means that customers (or otherwise) are encouraged to remain in the store for extended (i.e. all day if they choose) periods of time to participate in the hobby (playing games or building/painting models). All of this alters the usual perspectives on work environment and management. You essentially have no coworkers, but you will see core groups of regulars on a weekly basis, so learning to "work" with them becomes a must (since ideally, you want them to be customers on a regular basis as well). Also, as mentioned, you are the management--at the local level. There is literally no one looking over your shoulder for months at a time. So consider the pros and cons of that. Whether or not you can thrive in this culture will be entirely up to what you are suited for."
And
"GW expects a high level of commitment from all of its employees. This can be a positive if you drink their Kool Aid and like the way it tastes. If you disagree with company policy or see a contradiction between the values that management espouses and their behavior, get out before you burn out. Follow those two broad and cryptic guidelines and you'll love working for GW. I certainly did, until I didn't."
Very rare that I see a BMW employee say this...
Indeed. com discussion for working at BMW. ( A completely different level of sales, BTW.)
My day started pretty great 8:45 in the morning, still early, but not extremely early. I would wash cars that were serviced, loaned out or on the lot that hadn't been cleaned. Sometimes if there was time, I would clean up the inside of the dealership too.
What I learned was that I can always improve as long as you work at it, even if slow. I also learned the importance of communication and keeping negative comments or attitudes to yourself.
The management was very good. Solved any concerns immediately and in a quick fashion. Family oriented, worked around schedule, if needed. Friendly, yet firm and encouraging not demanding.
My co-workers were amazing people as well. Very helpful and lent a hand when needed. Went to the source when problems occurred and approachable.
The hardest part of the job was keeping up with the fast pace, when sometimes understaffed, but unwilling to hire someone else to help.
The most enjoyable part of the job was getting the exercise and the approachable attitude of most people there. Honored my schedule and stayed predictable through out.
I used to be a GW manager... tough racket...
In the end, You are building your models, don't think a thing about it. Have fun and worry more about the changing names of the paints then hurting GW's delicate feelings.
Thing about GW is that the prices that support their stores are already built into their pricing model.
You've already bought their product and the painting stations are more of their advertisement scheme, using them is part of the perks for buying their product. They don't have free paints to use anymore so you still have to use the paint you own in their shop.
You've paid for it, you use it.
This is significantly different from buying elsewhere and using an independent shop's resources. An independent doesn't have a large corporation to prop him up, support as much as you can.
Kriswall wrote: Most people I know would never make it in the long run as a retail manager.
That could be said about huge swathes of jobs.
An actual small business owner has to do all those things as well, but they have the added stress of paying the rent, having tens if not hundreds of thousands of their own dollars on the line (or possibly having borrowed it and needing to pay it back), having to deal with multiple distributors and has to worry about putting food on the table if they don't make enough sales to cover all the other costs. A GW store manager might quit or get fired if they don't make enough sales, but it's a long way off the ball and chain you carry if you are the actual store *owner*.
The main thing I feel sorry about GW store managers is they're hamstrung by GW. GW store managers are actively competing AGAINST GW's other sales channels, whether it's the online store or independent retailers who have more freedom to price match, reductions and offer incentives. I bought a kit from GW the other day for the first time in a couple of years. I show up, it's not in stock.... it is in stock at the FLGS down the road but whatever I'll support the GW store manager because he's a nice guy so I'll order it in. To order it in I have to pay for it on the spot (which is crap, I don't do that anywhere else). It takes me longer to go through the process of ordering it than if I'd just bought it online (which is crap, at the FLGS if I want something I just tell him what I want and give him my phone number). And now when it comes in I have to go back to the shop to pick it up (unlike ordering online where it would have been sent to my door for free).
So I've paid more, have to wait longer, it's consumed more of my time, and I'll still have to go out of my way to pick it up
GW should be doing their best to assign credit to store owners for as much as possible, not hamstringing them like that. They don't get credit for fostering a community which is really their foremost purpose within the GW as a whole.
But that's GW's fault, not mine, I'm not going to personally feel responsible for him for working for a stupid company.
me I find no conundrum with the OP's question I buy where it is cheapest (currently eBay), but then again I don't frequent the few local game stores either and paint at home.
as to the OP's question, buy at the cheap place and paint at home.
xraytango wrote: Thing about GW is that the prices that support their stores are already built into their pricing model.
You've already bought their product and the painting stations are more of their advertisement scheme, using them is part of the perks for buying their product. They don't have free paints to use anymore so you still have to use the paint you own in their shop.
You've paid for it, you use it.
This is significantly different from buying elsewhere and using an independent shop's resources. An independent doesn't have a large corporation to prop him up, support as much as you can.
This is spot on, GW's retail chain has long been a stone dragging them down part of the high costs is subsidizing the shops.
If you've bought something from anywhere besides eBay you've paid to use their stores.
Each store is designed to complement the customer experience. As well as containing all the products a customer could desire, they feature display cabinets, painting stations and gaming tables all designed to inspire our customers and provide an environment in which to demonstrate our products.
The store is there based on you being a customer .
You are not a customer if you have brought the product off a 3rd party. The third party is then gw customer.
To suggest that gw is running these stores as primarly advertising just isnt it if they just wanted to promot there product they could save 1000s of pounds by using flgs to promote there products.
The stores are there for you to primarly buy from and in turn you get the benifits .
Its already been pointed out that if everybody stoped buying from there then the store would close . Which again suggest that if the stores primary focus is as a shop.
If you just use a gw store for your own free place to "live" for a couple of hours then you are taking advatage. Just because other people are providing enough money for the store to be viable dosnt mean you are entiled to have that benifit.
Now i am basing this on a busy store where there is a demand for painting stations and tables and you are stoping other people benifiting . There should always be a space left for customers buying from the store and if not, then at that point you are taking a benfit away from another person which is why i say moraly thats wrong .
On the other hand if the store is dead then gw does get a benifit from you being there and in that case painting your "own" models is ok as your promoting the hobby .
Like most things in life its not black and white
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have one question that you should ask yourself .
If you had just brought a model from the gw store and wanted to have help and advice whislt building it as your a new player . but you couldnt do that because the space was being taken up by people who had brought second hand models into paint and hadnt contributed to that store being viable in any way
ian wrote: To suggest that gw is running these stores as primarly advertising just isnt it if they just wanted to promot there product they could save 1000s of pounds by using flgs to promote there products.
To suggest that gw is running these stores as primarly sales just isnt it if they just wanted to sell there product they could save 1000s of pounds by using flgs to sell there products.
The simple truth here is that GW's stores are primarily about marketing, not sales. GW can sell their products through independent stores and through their own online store, and in fact that's the standard in the US. What they can't get anywhere else is the opportunity to market their products in an environment where onlyGW's products can be sold. The goal of GW's retail stores is to lock you into the GW-only system where you don't buy third-party paints, tools, conversion parts, etc. Even if you make your final purchase elsewhere GW is still making money on the sale, and still has you committed to buying only GW products.
Its already been pointed out that if everybody stoped buying from there then the store would close . Which again suggest that if the stores primary focus is as a shop.
It suggests no such thing. First of all, we don't know that GW would close a store just because in-store sales do not cover all of the store's expenses. It's quite possible that GW would leave the store open if sales of GW products through other channels in that area are still strong, implying that the store's marketing function is still contributing to sales. Or maybe they wouldn't. But the "if everyone stopped buying" scenario ignores the fact that a situation where nobody buys anything anymore pretty strongly implies that GW's sales are weak everywhere else as well, and the store isn't marketing successfully. It would be very hard to imagine a real-world scenario where the 40k community in an area is strong but nobody is buying.
Now i am basing this on a busy store where there is a demand for painting stations and tables and you are stoping other people benifiting.
IOW, you're basing it on something other than a GW store.
There should always be a space left for customers buying from the store and if not, then at that point you are taking a benfit away from another person which is why i say moraly thats wrong.
How are you "taking away" a benefit that nobody had in the first place? If I can't say "I'm using this table now, move your stuff out of my way" then I never had the right to that table. You're making the assumption that there is a "buy stuff and get table space in exchange" deal going on, despite the store making no such agreement.
If you had just brought a model from the gw store and wanted to have help and advice whislt building it as your a new player . but you couldnt do that because the space was being taken up by people who had brought second hand models into paint and hadnt contributed to that store being viable in any way
How would you feel about that ?
I'd feel like the store is doing a terrible job of helping new customers, and I'd wonder what idiot decided that a single employee is sufficient staff for such a busy store. I'd probably wonder why the single employee is over hanging out with the regulars instead of doing their job. And I'd certainly wonder why the store doesn't have some kind of formal policy of "only models purchased in this store may be built or painted here" or table-use credits for in-store purchases or whatever, and allows any random person who wants to use the space to come in and take it. Finally, I'd wonder why I suddenly became so incompetent at life that I can't even build a plastic model kit without having someone hold my hand through the process, and probably stab myself to death with a $50000 Games™ Workshop™ Hobby™ Knife™ out of shame.
However, at no point would I think to blame the people who are making use of what the store offers.
Firstly how about a 14 year old who is new to hobbying and has never even put a model together ,im sure they could do with some help.
The managers are under heavy sales targets for a reason . If its about advertising then there would be a suitable targets created to measure that ie how many people attend club nights ,how full are the painting stations.
Its a retail shop in a retail location paying retail rates. The primary focus is sell models and advertise .
This is diffrent from saying that they are giving everbody a free place to hang out because in a busy store if your never a customer then your freeloading off of everybody else they are the reason why the store is open.
If everybody was to buy online gw could just advertise online there would be no need for a store and you would lose your free painting station.
Each store is designed to complement the customer experience.
Its not a free place for anybody to hang out and once a non customer is becoming a detriment to paying customers its time for them to consider if moraly there fine with that
And unfortunatly in this world there are plenty of people who will take what they want without thinking about how there actions mite impact on somebody else
The reason people are saying the cost of GW models is paying for being able to play at GW stores even if you didn't buy them at a GW store is we know GW stores lose money. It's right there in their financial reports, GW stores lost 3.4 million pounds last year.
GW stores are part of a larger business plan, they specifically talk about loss-making stores in their financial reports because that's part of their plan.
What that means is you're paying for their hobby stores regardless of whether you actually buy from them because the cost of a model has the cost of a GW retail store added on top of it even if you didn't buy it from the GW retail store.
So it's totally justified for customers to feel they bought the ability to play in a GW store even if they didn't buy in a GW store.
The problem is GW's business plan doesn't extend to store managers. Store manager's success is only judged on sales, when really it should be judged on how many people pass through the doors, how many intro games are played, how many tournaments are run and how many people attended, how much involvement the store has in the local clubs, how much the local community either grows or shrinks (as measured through not only the store's sales but also webstore sales).
If you bought GW product you are a GW customer. The only distinction is you might not be a customer of that specific manager.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battlesong wrote: And you need to buy more than paint/candy as they make no profit on that stuff.
If you buy a kit every few months just so you don't feel like a dick about playing in the store, they aren't really making much profit off you anyway. Especially if it's an FLGS who's offering 15% discount, that means on a $50 kit they're charging $42, $30 of which goes to GW and they only make $12.
I have no problem with a game store that charges for use of the tables and also charges for food and drink in addition to selling miniatures. They're a business and they're in it to make money so if they think it's worth money for me to be playing on their tables, charge me money to play on the tables. Don't try and hide the cost of the tables in the miniatures when probably 90% of your miniature buying customers are never going to use the tables and don't guilt the table users in to buying miniatures they don't want to buy. Offer coupons to play on the tables for customers who buy models if you want people to be more likely to buy models from your store than the store next door.
Sitting in the corner fuming about how the person playing at the table hasn't spent enough money in the last year to justify your time or even worse actually telling people to stop playing on the tables if they aren't buying if a terrible way to run a business IMO.
That GW insists on running their own stores like that is their problem, not mine.
Retail - provides the focus for the Hobby in their areas. They only stock Games Workshop product. They are where we recruit the majority of our new customers. To do so the stores don't offer the full range of our product, just new release product and the appropriate extended range. At the year end we had 451 Games Workshop stores in 20 countries. Our stores contributed 41% of the year's sales. We have 355 one man stores, small sites, each one staffed by only one store manager. We also have 96 multi-man stores, which are constantly reviewed to ensure they remain profitable. If not, they will be closed and replaced with one man stores.
This is from the 2016 anual report i havnt read it all ,but that doesnt sound like the stores are there just to advertise there products
if there not profitable then there gone (i do relise its replaced with one man stores but im sure it also mean shutting down non profit ones)
And so is your gaming table painting station or at the very least less avaiable space.
Pay where you play
And if your stopping customers from playing games or using tables that they have contirbutate to because they support the store
Then please give them prority because from a moral view point they are the ones keeping the store open
Yeah, so the multi-man stores are constantly reviewed and if not they are not making a profit they replaced with one man stores.
Obviously it would be ideal if GW stores were making a profit, but GW persists with stores even though on a whole they are losing them money.
That means the cost of having those stores is subsidised by sales through the webstore and independents, if it wasn't those stores would be out of business.
Even in your own quote it says "To do so the stores don't offer the full range of our product, just new release product and the appropriate extended range". GW store managers have to compete with a webstore and independent stores that are often better stocked than their own shelves. GW obviously views them as a part of a whole, not a singular entity, they just treat them like singular entities when judging store managers because it suits them in that particular circumstance.
We opened 48 new stores in the year including 7 relocated stores. These new stores generated £2.1 million of sales and made a loss of £0.1 million. Due to the under performance of some of our new stores in Continental Europe, we have paused any new store openings in this territory for 2016/17. Our main focus for store openings will be North America. This will allow us to focus on improving our existing store performance.
More information to surport that stores need to be profitable
ian wrote: Then please give them prority because from a moral view point they are the ones keeping the store open
From a moral point of view they're a business trying to win my money and if they fail to do that, it's their problem, not mine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ian wrote: We opened 48 new stores in the year including 7 relocated stores. These new stores generated £2.1 million of sales and made a loss of £0.1 million. Due to the under performance of some of our new stores in Continental Europe, we have paused any new store openings in this territory for 2016/17. Our main focus for store openings will be North America. This will allow us to focus on improving our existing store performance.
More information to surport that stores need to be profitable
Since you love quoting the annual report....
Total segment operating profit is as follows and is reconciled to profit before taxation below:
Retail -3,410,000
Retail stores lost 3.4 million pounds, the year prior they lost 1.5 million pounds.
Obviously they aren't TRYING to lose money, but the fact they are and yet still persisting with it shows that stores are part of a larger business plan.
Thats fine but what about the space your taking from there loyal customers .
Why should they have to miss out thefe the reason the store is there. ( a degree of common sense is required here its if your always stopping customers playing )
Its not black and white and the moral issue is for the stores customers not the store itself
ian wrote: Thats fine but what about the space your taking from there loyal customers .
Why should they have to miss out thefe the reason the store is there. ( a degree of common sense is required here its if your always stopping customers playing )
Its not black and white and the moral issue is for the stores customers not the store itself
Then it's up to the store to tell the players "hey guys, someone else wants to play, can you wrap it up after this game".
Or, they should just charge for the tables and reduce model prices instead of expecting customers to decide whether they've spent enough money this month to play on the tables.
Again, I'm not responsible for their failing business practices. I won't and can't give them enough money to keep their doors open if they don't know how to manage themselves.
Im sorry but i think you need to reread the annual report
Page 43
Retail cost 35930000 to operate
Retail profit was 3410000
They made 3.4 million i hope that was just a simple mistake .as i cannot see and minus on the figures.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If your not supporting the store by buying from them and you are negitivly affecting paying customers . Then you have to ask yourself is this fair. Because they are the reason the store stays open
Again everybody has there own level of morals . I would go out of my way to support the people who support the store by giving them prority
This argument has been based on somebody buying all of there models from another place and using a gw store .Once you start at least buying some models from the store then your supporting the store so theres no issue .
Now things get very murky very quickly if you start trying to figure out how much you have to buy to use the store ect and at that point only time will tell how long the store stays open
ian wrote: Im sorry but i think you need to reread the annual report Page 43 Retail cost 35930000 to operate Retail profit was 3410000
They made 3.4 million i hope that was just a simple mistake .as i cannot see and minus on the figures.
Notice how it's in brackets? Brackets mean a negative.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ian wrote: Then you have to ask yourself is this fair.
Fair is that it's a business and they need to find a way of making money and ideally that doesn't involve guilting people in to buying models.
Look, personally I DON'T play at my local GW because I also don't buy models. While I personally couldn't give a crap I'm sure other people do and I don't want to feel unwelcome doing something that is supposed to be fun.
But it's an arse about way of doing business because all it means is if I'm not playing there, I'm not going to the store at all, thus I'm ALSO not impulse buying anything from the store like I did back in the good old days. End result? The store is even more likely to close than it was before. Fact is I almost never buy GW models anymore anyway, I have almost all the GW models I want and funnily enough a large chunk of them were bought from GW stores, but a time before the current manager was there.
I wish people would just just separate the idea of buying models and using the tables. Don't think buying models entitles you to play in the store because you're personally propping up the store. Frankly the amount you personally spend is probably insignificant, most players just buy their crap and then never play in the store, THOSE are the people keeping the store open. Also don't think because someone didn't buy their models from said store it disentitles them to play in the store because it's up to the store owner to decide whether or not it's worth having tables set up and they can be the ones to choose whether they keep the tables, remove the tables or start charging for the use of the tables. If the store owner wants to be cranky and push people out then feth 'em, I hope they close/get fired. Stores with cranky staff are rarely successful in the long run.
I'd rather see the store close than have an unfriendly environment due to me not having bought the prerequisite unstated amount of models required for me to be welcome.
I think gaming stores need to stop thinking they're operating like a restaurant (where you aren't allowed to eat there unless you bought the food there) and start acting more like a pool hall (where you don't have to be buying drinks from the bar to play on the tables because you're paying for the table by itself).
ian wrote: A quick paragraph provided from the link above
Each store is designed to complement the customer experience. As well as containing all the products a customer could desire, they feature display cabinets, painting stations and gaming tables all designed to inspire our customers and provide an environment in which to demonstrate our products.
The store is there based on you being a customer .
You are not a customer if you have brought the product off a 3rd party. The third party is then gw customer.
To suggest that gw is running these stores as primarly advertising just isnt it if they just wanted to promot there product they could save 1000s of pounds by using flgs to promote there products.
The stores are there for you to primarly buy from and in turn you get the benifits .
Its already been pointed out that if everybody stoped buying from there then the store would close . Which again suggest that if the stores primary focus is as a shop.
If you just use a gw store for your own free place to "live" for a couple of hours then you are taking advatage. Just because other people are providing enough money for the store to be viable dosnt mean you are entiled to have that benifit.
Now i am basing this on a busy store where there is a demand for painting stations and tables and you are stoping other people benifiting . There should always be a space left for customers buying from the store and if not, then at that point you are taking a benfit away from another person which is why i say moraly thats wrong .
On the other hand if the store is dead then gw does get a benifit from you being there and in that case painting your "own" models is ok as your promoting the hobby .
Like most things in life its not black and white
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have one question that you should ask yourself .
If you had just brought a model from the gw store and wanted to have help and advice whislt building it as your a new player . but you couldnt do that because the space was being taken up by people who had brought second hand models into paint and hadnt contributed to that store being viable in any way
How would you feel about that ?
My personal Anecdotal answer is from my personal perspective- The local game community breeds their own. I don't need a GW "Employee" to teach me anything other then to avoid them at all costs, and go to my local cabal of Grognards, and Neophytes, as we discuss our own local scene, and continue to evolve our own LOCAL GAMING COMMUNITY.
The minute I rely on an international gaming company to tell me about the error of my ways in saving some money and playing games is the day that My local Game community will die.
I don't know about you, but on our end in the states, the GW's idea on how to run a "Game Store" is completely backwards and does not work very well over here. GW tries to compete with your already established local community, and in turn sucks out a large chunk of the marrow of the "Community" by putting the store near or in the same local as Independent FLGS.
Not only does their practices shatter a tight knit community, they do themselves a disservice in continuing to foster an "Us against Them" mentality. Combine that with the company practices of "Store Hours", "One Man Stores", "Overpriced Product", and they honestly set up the new guy, freshly indoctrinated, manager for failure.
I don't know how the "Business Model" works in Australia, but from where I came from, on several different occasions, in several different cities in the U.S. I have watched the opening, and closing of these GW stores go in for the kill, even with the help of the local gaming community- They usually end up in either two different outcomes-
1. The Local game store loses business and goes out of business.
or
2. The Local GW goes out of business.
There is no third option. In Virginia, Maryland, North Carolina, Kentucky, South Carolina, Michigan, Massachusetts, New York, and Now, Florida. Your local game store is the bonified hub of gaming. When the decision to pull the trigger and set up a GW in the same area, it goes much the same as has been alluded to in other discussion, first there is an elation, because after all, You are a GW player, your local game store has GW stuff, but you get to go in and embrace the suck of a company store. Then the GW store inches into the "Buy or get out" phase, and by then- your local game store has lost their cliental and goes into Defcon 4 stage where they are scared !@#$less about their survival as they cut their store staff, lose the GW orders, have them delayed, etc. and then rely on locals to keep them afloat, as they either wither and die, or reconfigure their sales mode and branch out into other venues.
GW is backed by an international corporation with a wide staff and deep pockets, they can afford to play that game, Your LGS does not.
As I can see in the Aussie Model, I do not see it on par with America, or Europe, I see it worse. I'll let our Aussie friends discuss how it works there...
A kid goes in, he has a finite amount of lunch money, BOTH stores should make it their mission to milk them, and do anything they can to keep the youngster in the hobby. A local game community and the store is to cultivate the kid in his chosen profession. GW is already going to make $1-2,000.00 on him/ her regardless, letting them paint a model that they got on a discount, being a GW model, is not going to do anything to GW in the slightest.
Sorry i did not relise brackets meant negitive . The only time i would have a problem with sombody that was just using the store and not contributing and i wasnt getting any games because they where always playing that sistuation is just not fair .
Davor wrote: When does brackets mean negative? I always thought the - ment negative, not brackets. Is this a UK thing or something?
I dunno why but accountants like to use brackets to represent negative numbers. Maybe because they didn't want to get confused if there's a $ sign as well?
As an engineer it seems stupid to me, but then so do a lot of the things economists and accountants do
I dont actual play at a store im lucky enough to have a mate who has set up a "club" at his house so im pretty lucky .
And i do agree adults make comprimises so if your not suporting the store dont hog the tables .
And thats my point it isnt fair so like the op orginal question is it wrong . No but its not fair on the people supporting the store if your not and they lose out on painting tables and games
hobojebus wrote: adults find a way to make things work through compromises.
No we don't. We can't make compromises when someone wants to play Unbound in 40K. We couldn't make compromises when we wanted to play Age of Sigmar. Or at least that is what the internet says. It's "Play my way because it's the only way." Remember Dakka says we shouldn't have to talk to our opponent before a game.
If your store was an independent, then I would say yes, they need all the help they can get, and its only fair that you support the store by buying their products to use in their store.
But its not, Its GW, its a multi million pound multinational company with many different sales channels, they control the prices of their products, they have the power to make stuff cheaper, to get you to come into the GW store, rather than the competition if they so wish.
As people have already said, they allow other stores to sell the same stuff they do at a discount, its on them really.
The stores have always been massive merchandising tools more than anything, in the UK especially, hence why they keep them in action even though they are not making much, if anything.
It will be interesting to see if they eventually do close the stores that are losing them money.
If it were me and I was wanting to go and hang around in the GW, I would at least buy some paints from the GW in question, just so I dont look like a freeloader, but I would not feel bad about taking in GW minis in to work with that I have bought elsewhere.
I can understand some people not giving a crap about it too, when I was younger, I would not have given a flying feth about what was morally right or wrong, as long I was getting the best deal.
If it was a different non-GW game store, I'd say it's wrong. But being GW it's more grey-area. Their company owns the product you bought. You aren't bringing a competitors product in. You painting and assembling the stuff can sell it to anybody walking in; you're kind of working for them for free. Talk with the boss there and see what he says. Likely won't be a big deal, especially if he sees the value of somebody assembling and painting product he sells while curious parties are coming in and looking. But if he does have issue with it, don't argue, just thank him for discussing it.
ian wrote: Im sorry but i think you need to reread the annual report
Page 43
Retail cost 35930000 to operate
Retail profit was 3410000
They made 3.4 million i hope that was just a simple mistake .as i cannot see and minus on the figures.
Notice how it's in brackets? Brackets mean a negative.
Indeed.
One thing to note is that despite the misunderstanding you can both be right. That retail loss will almost certainly include Procurement, Fit out, Decant/delivery, UK based management of overseas locations (+ travel) and attributable overheads. Setting up shops (and GW aren't that shoddy in terms of specification) isn't cheap. So there is a decent chunk of on-cost here all of which is an investment in increasing turnover, increasing player recruitment and moving as much full RRP purchasing through GW retail channels as possible.
None of which to say is that individual GW stores in the main do not make a profit as per the report quoted.
ian wrote: Im sorry but i think you need to reread the annual report
Page 43
Retail cost 35930000 to operate
Retail profit was 3410000
They made 3.4 million i hope that was just a simple mistake .as i cannot see and minus on the figures.
Notice how it's in brackets? Brackets mean a negative.
Indeed.
One thing to note is that despite the misunderstanding you can both be right. That retail loss will almost certainly include Procurement, Fit out, Decant/delivery, UK based management of overseas locations (+ travel) and attributable overheads. Setting up shops (and GW aren't that shoddy in terms of specification) isn't cheap. So there is a decent chunk of on-cost here all of which is an investment in increasing turnover, increasing player recruitment and moving as much full RRP purchasing through GW retail channels as possible.
None of which to say is that individual GW stores in the main do not make a profit as per the report quoted.
MY POST STARTS HERE:::
One of the issues with looking at a 3.4mm loss in terms of retail operations is that GW has historically (at least based on my personal conversations with previous senior mgmt) looked at the stores as a form of advertising and customer acquisition venue. If a store runs at a loss, but brings in a constant stream of new customers who purchase online and at other venues, it's a net win for the company. As such, it could be argued that the 3.4mm loss is really more of an advertising/marketing expense. Making money would obviously be better, but losing money on the retail operations isn't that big a deal.
I live in Australia and I fly to the U.K. 2 - 3 times a year, I peer order from a 20% discount store and get a bulk order sent to my hotel. I then fly back home and sell the stuff on eBay for a 30% aus discount this effectively pays for my entire trip and I effectively get my hobby for free.
Is it wrong that GW sells stuff with such a high mark up that is it possible for me to do this?
ian wrote: Im sorry but i think you need to reread the annual report Page 43 Retail cost 35930000 to operate Retail profit was 3410000
They made 3.4 million i hope that was just a simple mistake .as i cannot see and minus on the figures.
Notice how it's in brackets? Brackets mean a negative.
Indeed.
One thing to note is that despite the misunderstanding you can both be right. That retail loss will almost certainly include Procurement, Fit out, Decant/delivery, UK based management of overseas locations (+ travel) and attributable overheads. Setting up shops (and GW aren't that shoddy in terms of specification) isn't cheap. So there is a decent chunk of on-cost here all of which is an investment in increasing turnover, increasing player recruitment and moving as much full RRP purchasing through GW retail channels as possible.
None of which to say is that individual GW stores in the main do not make a profit as per the report quoted.
MY POST STARTS HERE::: One of the issues with looking at a 3.4mm loss in terms of retail operations is that GW has historically (at least based on my personal conversations with previous senior mgmt) looked at the stores as a form of advertising and customer acquisition venue. If a store runs at a loss, but brings in a constant stream of new customers who purchase online and at other venues, it's a net win for the company. As such, it could be argued that the 3.4mm loss is really more of an advertising/marketing expense. Making money would obviously be better, but losing money on the retail operations isn't that big a deal.
You need to delete an extra [ \ quote] you have after my post for it to format properly.
But yeah, that was the whole point, if GW stores are a form of advertising or a loss maker intended to get people in to the game, you can argue that the cost of GW stores is tied up in the cost of the miniatures regardless of whether you bought them from a SPECIFIC GW store. GW stores are just part of a larger picture, not singular entities in and of themselves (like an FLGS might be).
The fact that there's a distinction between buying from one GW source and then gaming in a different GW store entirely comes down to the fact GWHQ base their judgement of a manager on sales rather than all the other stuff that actually goes in to creating a community.
In the end you could buy at one GW store and play at a different GW store and GW themselves wouldn't give a crap, the end result is the same, the only one being slighted is that specific store manager. Hell, you could buy $1000 worth of product from a store, a month later get a new manager as far as the new manager is concerned it doesn't matter where you got the models, it's not going on their sales record anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
balazra wrote: I live in Australia and I fly to the U.K. 2 - 3 times a year, I peer order from a 20% discount store and get a bulk order sent to my hotel. I then fly back home and sell the stuff on eBay for a 30% aus discount this effectively pays for my entire trip and I effectively get my hobby for free. Is it wrong that GW sells stuff with such a high mark up that is it possible for me to do this?
This is a large part of the reason I think GW's regional pricing is so bad. People can literally buy stuff at retail price overseas (or better yet retail minus discount) and get stuff cheaper than an Australian FLGS can get it wholesale.
GW try and shut down international sales channels, but there's always going to be grey market imports and local stores just can't compete with that.
Let the local market find it's own way by giving FLGS's globally competitive wholesale prices. If the FLGS can't afford to match international prices, then so be it, but GW aren't even giving the FLGS's the chance to compete. It's really no wonder at all that FLGS's over here seem to be moving further and further away from GW as each year rolls by (it seems TheCombatCompany which is one of the largest Australian online stores might be dropping GW? They haven't listed Blood Bowl on their site).
Kriswall wrote:MY POST STARTS HERE:::
One of the issues with looking at a 3.4mm loss in terms of retail operations is that GW has historically (at least based on my personal conversations with previous senior mgmt) looked at the stores as a form of advertising and customer acquisition venue. If a store runs at a loss, but brings in a constant stream of new customers who purchase online and at other venues, it's a net win for the company. As such, it could be argued that the 3.4mm loss is really more of an advertising/marketing expense. Making money would obviously be better, but losing money on the retail operations isn't that big a deal.
I am sorry, I don't understand this. What does millimeters suppose to do with this?
Kriswall wrote:MY POST STARTS HERE:::
One of the issues with looking at a 3.4mm loss in terms of retail operations is that GW has historically (at least based on my personal conversations with previous senior mgmt) looked at the stores as a form of advertising and customer acquisition venue. If a store runs at a loss, but brings in a constant stream of new customers who purchase online and at other venues, it's a net win for the company. As such, it could be argued that the 3.4mm loss is really more of an advertising/marketing expense. Making money would obviously be better, but losing money on the retail operations isn't that big a deal.
I am sorry, I don't understand this. What does millimeters suppose to do with this?
mm is also shorthand for millions. Apologies. I work in the financial industry. It's short for a thousand thousands... i.e. a million.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Free market, buy where you get the best deal. GW'll have to compete like any other company would.
I agree with this, it's your money, you need to look out for your own finances.
I also agree. It appears the original question has been distorted slightly and now the discussion has turned to should you pay where you play (or paint/build etc) You don't owe the store, be it GW or indeed a flgs anything, if you're on good terms with them then maybe you'll purchase there in the hopes of supporting it or out of some other loyalty. I know my flgs makes more profit out of food and drink then they do out of model sales and I always buy these. But when you can save serious money by purchasing your models or equipment elsewhere it's a no brainer.
Maybe GW should start serving coffee and cakes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although I'd hate to think what they would charge : )
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Free market, buy where you get the best deal. GW'll have to compete like any other company would.
I agree with this, it's your money, you need to look out for your own finances.
I also agree. It appears the original question has been distorted slightly and now the discussion has turned to should you pay where you play (or paint/build etc) You don't owe the store, be it GW or indeed a flgs anything, if you're on good terms with them then maybe you'll purchase there in the hopes of supporting it or out of some other loyalty. I know my flgs makes more profit out of food and drink then they do out of model sales and I always buy these. But when you can save serious money by purchasing your models or equipment elsewhere it's a no brainer. Maybe GW should start serving coffee and cakes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although I'd hate to think what they would charge : )
You know how stupid this is? Yes buy else where because you can save money but pay and buy more expensive product as well. WTF?
If going by this logic, I should buy my GW product else where because it's cheaper, then go to the grocery store so I can buy my snacks and drinks cheaper then go to the store and just play or paint there. Even more money saved.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Free market, buy where you get the best deal. GW'll have to compete like any other company would.
I agree with this, it's your money, you need to look out for your own finances.
I also agree. It appears the original question has been distorted slightly and now the discussion has turned to should you pay where you play (or paint/build etc) You don't owe the store, be it GW or indeed a flgs anything, if you're on good terms with them then maybe you'll purchase there in the hopes of supporting it or out of some other loyalty. I know my flgs makes more profit out of food and drink then they do out of model sales and I always buy these. But when you can save serious money by purchasing your models or equipment elsewhere it's a no brainer.
Maybe GW should start serving coffee and cakes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although I'd hate to think what they would charge : )
You know how stupid this is? Yes buy else where because you can save money but pay and buy more expensive product as well. WTF?
If going by this logic, I should buy my GW product else where because it's cheaper, then go to the grocery store so I can buy my snacks and drinks cheaper then go to the store and just play or paint there. Even more money saved.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit.
My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army.
I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
ian wrote: Thats fine but what about the space your taking from there loyal customers .
Why should they have to miss out thefe the reason the store is there. ( a degree of common sense is required here its if your always stopping customers playing )
The reason the store is there is something you quoted before:
ian wrote: Retail - provides the focus for the Hobby in their areas. They only stock Games Workshop product. They are where we recruit the majority of our new customers. To do so the stores don't offer the full range of our product, just new release product and the appropriate extended range. At the year end we had 451 Games Workshop stores in 20 countries. Our stores contributed 41% of the year's sales. We have 355 one man stores, small sites, each one staffed by only one store manager. We also have 96 multi-man stores, which are constantly reviewed to ensure they remain profitable. If not, they will be closed and replaced with one man stores.
I don't see where it says seating/table priority is given to those who specifically buy there.
ian wrote: Its not black and white and the moral issue is for the stores customers not the store itself
We're not talking about laws or something where morality goes up against the word of law. We're talking about something quantifiable: Money. Specifically, why I'm supposed to spend it in a GW store if I'm going to be playing there sometimes. Guilt isn't quantifiable and is a real gak marketing strategy. So you need to actually determine a system of meritocracy for who gets to use the tables, and right now it's essentially "people who are doing hobby things involving GW products." Don't like it? Talk to GW. I mean, by this same logic, if one were to be done buying GW stuff (which I am for the foreseeable future - I've got my army that I will be playing and am realizing I'm liking other systems a hell of a lot more so I'm spending my money there), one wouldn't be deserving to play upon the Holy Tables of the One Man Store because one wouldn't be spending any money there. But do people really have a problem with that? Are we supposed to be constantly pumping money into one thing and we aren't allowed to stray from the True Path? The reason people are having a problem with OP is because OP IS still buying things, just not from the GW. What if OP were buying things from one GW that's closer to work, and hobbying in a GW that's closer to home? What if OP wasn't spending any more money on GW at all because OP is done with their army, but still likes to play in the store? Those will also create the perception that OP isn't following your "moral" code.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit.
My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army.
I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them.
I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it.
I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money.
GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me.
If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably)
Is my point of view that confusing?
Is it wrong to buy my food at subway then go into a local resturant to eat it? They still get the enjoyment of my company and my mess, I get their enjoyable eating space.
The owner should be happy I want to loiter in their building.
OgreChubbs wrote: Is it wrong to buy my food at subway then go into a local resturant to eat it? They still get the enjoyment of my company and my mess, I get their enjoyable eating space.
The owner should be happy I want to loiter in their building.
Not a metaphor for the actual situation (assuming you mean you're buying food at a Subway restaurant and going into another named restaurant to eat it), because as I've said before, this is actually more akin to Burger King saying "Hey come in and use our tables for Burger King stuff," so you buy Burger King at location A (or a street vendor, because the discussion is really about a 3rd party retailer) and you go and eat at a different Burger King.
It's not like taking Burger King into an Olive Garden. It's taking Burger King to a Burger King, one which has told you to come in with Burger King.
Edit: Also, how ya enjoying those recasts you've talked about purchasing? Lol
OgreChubbs wrote: Is it wrong to buy my food at subway then go into a local resturant to eat it? They still get the enjoyment of my company and my mess, I get their enjoyable eating space.
The owner should be happy I want to loiter in their building.
Not a metaphor for the actual situation (assuming you mean you're buying food at a Subway restaurant and going into another named restaurant to eat it), because as I've said before, this is actually more akin to Burger King saying "Hey come in and use our tables for Burger King stuff," so you buy Burger King at location A (or a street vendor, because the discussion is really about a 3rd party retailer) and you go and eat at a different Burger King.
It's not like taking Burger King into an Olive Garden. It's taking Burger King to a Burger King, one which has told you to come in with Burger King.
Edit: Also, how ya enjoying those recasts you've talked about purchasing? Lol
You are forgetting something all GW shops are not owned buy 1 guy. Each one is indivually owned and operated, so you are taking money away from Paul the GW shop frachise user who is hopping to earn a living. By taking up space you are hurting a person trying to make a living with a hobby he enjoys.
It is as tho I buy my power from teds power then have the owner of the local power company come to my house to fix it for free.
OgreChubbs wrote: Is it wrong to buy my food at subway then go into a local resturant to eat it? They still get the enjoyment of my company and my mess, I get their enjoyable eating space.
The owner should be happy I want to loiter in their building.
Not a metaphor for the actual situation (assuming you mean you're buying food at a Subway restaurant and going into another named restaurant to eat it), because as I've said before, this is actually more akin to Burger King saying "Hey come in and use our tables for Burger King stuff," so you buy Burger King at location A (or a street vendor, because the discussion is really about a 3rd party retailer) and you go and eat at a different Burger King.
It's not like taking Burger King into an Olive Garden. It's taking Burger King to a Burger King, one which has told you to come in with Burger King.
Edit: Also, how ya enjoying those recasts you've talked about purchasing? Lol
You are forgetting something all GW shops are not owned buy 1 guy. Each one is indivually owned and operated, so you are taking money away from Paul the GW shop frachise user who is hopping to earn a living. By taking up space you are hurting a person trying to make a living with a hobby he enjoys.
It is as tho I buy my power from teds power then have the owner of the local power company come to my house to fix it for free.
Since when are GW shops franchises? They're corporately owned.
You are forgetting something all GW shops are not owned buy 1 guy. Each one is indivually owned and operated, so you are taking money away from Paul the GW shop frachise user who is hopping to earn a living.
Except, as I think has been mentioned in this thread, and I have a vague recollection of telling you directly before, not a single GW store is a franchise. GW does not operate the franchise model, all GW stores are run by GW staff on a salary plus bonus basis.
You are correct that they're not owned by "1 guy" in that GW is a publicly owned company, but even then, barely.
GW stores are not a franchise like McDonald's, every GW store is owned by GW (leased whatever) every staff members an employee of GW.
If you buy GW from a flgs or online you are subsidizing their stores so you have every right to use their stores, only way to buy models without GW getting a cut is used of eBay and even then GW still got paid by the guy selling them.
It may suck for the manager if you buy elsewhere but you don't owe them a living, if he wants your business it's on him to entice you to buy there.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
Food and miniatures aren't analogous in this situation. It's like comparing apples to plastic scale models of apples that you use to play a wargame.
Buying food in a gaming store is largely an issue of convenience. You need to buy food to eat (you might not need to buy new models to play a game). Buying the food in the gaming store is partly a matter of convenience because I need to eat and I'm a store that sells food. If I need to play a game, the convenience of being in the store that sells miniatures doesn't really do much for me, I still have to go home and spend a month or ten painting them before I play a game with them.
The fact restaurants have "no outside food" policies works because of the immediate nature of buying food then consuming it.
Honestly, I personally love supporting flgs, as they seem more "authentic" to me. I was wrong apparently, as if GW stores are theoretically created and run by 1 man, then it would be a similar scenario.
As for your dilemma, if the flgs upstairs doesn't have anywhere to play/paint, suggest it to them! Say "Hey, i love the discounts on your models and the store, but I have to go downstairs to paint or play. Any possibility of a work area?". Hopefully they'll consider it, as that'd bring in more business.
Take this all with a grain of salt though, as there are no nearby flgs with 40k where I live, so i use GW.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit.
My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army.
I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them.
I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it.
I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money.
GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me.
If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably)
Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
It's a silly argument on your part to say buying over costed models is justified on the grounds I will buy over costed food or drink.
I can wait for my models and will shop at the best price. If I want to eat straight away I'll do so wherever's convenient. Otherwise I buy at the supermarket like everyone else and still try to get the best price.
Not to mention the fact that buying discount models over retail price models may be a difference of $5 (low end), while buying the overcosted snack compared to a supermarket snack may be a difference of $0.5, which could be less than the gas it would take to get you to the other place.
The price differences are not comparable. I will pay 50 cents for the convenience of eating that food immediately and spending less on gas or saving time walking to the place. I will not pay 100 dollars for the convenience of buying models that I will not be playing with that day in the store.
Jacksmiles wrote: The price differences are not comparable. I will pay 50 cents for the convenience of eating that food immediately and spending less on gas or saving time walking to the place. I will not pay 100 dollars for the convenience of buying models that I will not be playing with that day in the store.
QFT. Let's remember, the majority of GW stores are one man stores, and it's really the community of players that show up where you get your value. When is the last time a manager played a game with you?
We should be talking about ways to incentivize the community to show up at stores instead of ways of helping retail managers meet their quotas.
Historically, my local GW store does more to chase away players than to get them into the hobby with their sales-focused approach to customer service. I remember a time when a kid came in with his mother, assembled all the boxes needed to build a complete Space Marine army, then rang up the purchase for $4,000. The sale was cancelled and the kid was being yelled at on the way out of the store.
Jacksmiles wrote: The price differences are not comparable. I will pay 50 cents for the convenience of eating that food immediately and spending less on gas or saving time walking to the place. I will not pay 100 dollars for the convenience of buying models that I will not be playing with that day in the store.
QFT. Let's remember, the majority of GW stores are one man stores, and it's really the community of players that show up where you get your value. When is the last time a manager played a game with you?
We should be talking about ways to incentivize the community to show up at stores instead of ways of helping retail managers meet their quotas.
Historically, my local GW store does more to chase away players than to get them into the hobby with their sales-focused approach to customer service. I remember a time when a kid came in with his mother, assembled all the boxes needed to build a complete Space Marine army, then rang up the purchase for $4,000. The sale was cancelled and the kid was being yelled at on the way out of the store.
I haven't played in my local GW store since 2004 because of the manager Tim a former friend who cancelled vets night with no forewarning at all and destroyed the group because we didn't have everyone's details.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
Food and miniatures aren't analogous in this situation. It's like comparing apples to plastic scale models of apples that you use to play a wargame.
Buying food in a gaming store is largely an issue of convenience. You need to buy food to eat (you might not need to buy new models to play a game). Buying the food in the gaming store is partly a matter of convenience because I need to eat and I'm a store that sells food. If I need to play a game, the convenience of being in the store that sells miniatures doesn't really do much for me, I still have to go home and spend a month or ten painting them before I play a game with them.
The fact restaurants have "no outside food" policies works because of the immediate nature of buying food then consuming it.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
It's a silly argument on your part to say buying over costed models is justified on the grounds I will buy over costed food or drink. I can wait for my models and will shop at the best price. If I want to eat straight away I'll do so wherever's convenient. Otherwise I buy at the supermarket like everyone else and still try to get the best price.
Ah moving the goal posts now eh? If you are going to use the excuse "buy cheaper elsewhere because of huge mark ups" don't make excuses for not doing so.
Clanan wrote: So what about FLGS vs. FLGS? This issue has been bugging me because of the following:
FLGS 1 is 5 mins away, nice tables and scenery but no discounts.
FLGS 2 is 15 min away, few/bad tables, 30% discount on GW.
I buy all my small stuff at #1 but it's soo hard losing 30% discount on bigger items... I wish I could just pay them a subscription to support them.
I'm happy to pay for good tables, what I have a problem with is feeling like I have to pay for models in order to use the "free" tables.
If someone has spent days setting up an awesome table, that's cool, I appreciate the work that went in to it and I'm happy to pay a few bucks to play on it so over time the store can recoup the costs of putting the table together.
I'm all for separating the costs of models from tables. Charge what you can for the models in and of themselves and charge what you feel is fair for the tables themselves, don't overcharge for models to compensate for the cost of making the tables then wonder why no one wants to buy your overpriced models
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
Food and miniatures aren't analogous in this situation. It's like comparing apples to plastic scale models of apples that you use to play a wargame.
Buying food in a gaming store is largely an issue of convenience. You need to buy food to eat (you might not need to buy new models to play a game). Buying the food in the gaming store is partly a matter of convenience because I need to eat and I'm a store that sells food. If I need to play a game, the convenience of being in the store that sells miniatures doesn't really do much for me, I still have to go home and spend a month or ten painting them before I play a game with them.
The fact restaurants have "no outside food" policies works because of the immediate nature of buying food then consuming it.
You can't eat/drink in most flgs apart from stuff bought on the premises and this is fine, I pay a few more pounds, and the store owner makes more profit. My models however can be bought 20-25% cheaper elsewhere and so I save serious money on a standard sized 40k army. I'm happy for those people who think this is 'stupid' to keep paying more. They're happy. I'm happy. Everyone's a winner.
Ah so now it's not a GW store it's ok then eh? I thought we were talking on principle. Now I see it's a different story.
Everyone's a winner? How is the poor manager or the person running the one man store a winner now? Now we are just making excuses to make ourselves feel better for "giving it to GW cooperate".
I'm getting confused by your stance. I buy my models at the best price I can get them. I understand some people buying at their flgs or local GW out of loyalty but I don't do it. I purchase food and drink whilst at my flgs which helps the store to make money. GW overcharge for everything, always have, always will. They don't get anything directly from me. If GW served food and drink, and I played on one of their tables (which I don't) then I would proabaly buy something to eat or drink, as I wouldn't be able to take anything in (presumably) Is my point of view that confusing?
My stance is, people shouldn't make excuses about "saving money" when thy buy other stuff that they are clearly being overcharged when they buy other products. That is a hypocrite.
After all the debate/arguement is GW puts up a huge mark up on their products so it's ok to shop else where. Well buying a bottle of water is a huge mark up as well so going by the "shop else where because of the mark up" should mean we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water or what ever at the FLGS because we can also buy it cheaper. That is all I am saying, using that excuse is not a very good one because we don't do what we are saying. So if the excuse is don't buy from GW because we can it cheaper, we shouldn't be buying that bottle of water as well because we can buy it cheaper also.
Since we do buy that bottle of water, the excuse of "buy it else where because it's cheaper" is no longer valid now is it.
It's a silly argument on your part to say buying over costed models is justified on the grounds I will buy over costed food or drink. I can wait for my models and will shop at the best price. If I want to eat straight away I'll do so wherever's convenient. Otherwise I buy at the supermarket like everyone else and still try to get the best price.
Ah moving the goal posts now eh? If you are going to use the excuse "buy cheaper elsewhere because of huge mark ups" don't make excuses for not doing so.
It's not moving the goalposts, it's explaining why purchasing food with a markup is different to purchasing miniatures with a markup.
There's some things you can get away with a mark up, there's some things you can't. A 50% markup on a bottle of water that originally cost $1 is something you can get away with for the sake of convenience for your customers who is going to drink that bottle of water on the spot. A lesser 30% markup but on a $100 item that your customer is going to take home to assemble anyway is not something you can get away of (at least not often enough to foster a good customer base).
hobojebus wrote: Conflating food sales for model sales is a false equivalency fallacy to begin with he's not moving goal posts at all.
Yes it is moving the goal posts. Now the excuse is being used of why it's ok to pay mark up on products. Remember the goal post was "paying more and you can get less by buying else where". So if that is the excuse we are using then we shouldn't be buying marked up food. After all the point was "paying for more."
If this is not the case then it should have been clearly said then, and a lot of people were not saying it. So yes the goal posts are moved once you say it's ok for this but not for that.
Look I agree, buy where you play/paint be it water bottle, food, paint, burshes, what ever. That is not the debate. The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
Conflating food sales for model sales is a false equivalency fallacy to begin with he's not moving goal posts at all.
Yes it is moving the goal posts. Now the excuse is being used of why it's ok to pay mark up on products. Remember the goal post was "paying more and you can get less by buying else where". So if that is the excuse we are using then we shouldn't be buying marked up food. After all the point was "paying for more."
If this is not the case then it should have been clearly said then, and a lot of people were not saying it. So yes the goal posts are moved once you say it's ok for this but not for that.
Look I agree, buy where you play/paint be it water bottle, food, paint, burshes, what ever. That is not the debate. The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
Oh give it a break, no, you're wrong.
Firstly, you're inventing goalposts that were never set by the people you are arguing with.
Secondly, the post you originally quoted specifically talked about saving "serious money", saving $25 on a $100 is much closer to "serious money" than paying a bit more for a bottle of water.
Thirdly, you've acted like Huron was talking about the moral aspect, but YOU are the one who bought that stuff up. So if you think the moral goalposts are being moved it's simply because you were the only one shooting for that particular goal in the first place. No one else has bought up the moral or "on principle" aspect of it except you, we're just talking about PRACTICALITY.
Fourthly, we've give you the reasons why buying food from an FLGS is not analogous to buying overpriced models which you have not addressed.
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Davor wrote: The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
No, that wasn't the debate. That was only one facet of the debate and ignoring things like the practicality, convenience and the significance of the amount of money being saved is disingenuous.
hobojebus wrote: Conflating food sales for model sales is a false equivalency fallacy to begin with he's not moving goal posts at all.
Yes it is moving the goal posts. Now the excuse is being used of why it's ok to pay mark up on products. Remember the goal post was "paying more and you can get less by buying else where". So if that is the excuse we are using then we shouldn't be buying marked up food. After all the point was "paying for more."
If this is not the case then it should have been clearly said then, and a lot of people were not saying it. So yes the goal posts are moved once you say it's ok for this but not for that.
Look I agree, buy where you play/paint be it water bottle, food, paint, burshes, what ever. That is not the debate. The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
A 50 cent markup on a candy bar is not comparable to a 20 dollar markup on a model. I gave reasons for buying the candy bar from a place you're already at, namely that it's ACTUALLY CHEAPER to do so in many cases rather than jumping in your car and using gas (that costs money, maybe around the same 50 cents, maybe more) to go somewhere else, or using your time (time is money, folks!) to walk somewhere (instead of using gas). Alternatively, if you're at a place selling a model for $100, and there's another place selling that same model for $75, it's worth driving (let's say that distance also costs 50 cents) - you still SAVED MONEY, a significant amount, even ($24.50 in this example), or you can walk it (time is money, still) and you've saved whatever amount - depends on how you value your time (could be that to you, walking doesn't save money because you value your time so highly, that's okay too).
It's not moving the goal posts when the goal posts are and have always been saving money. Does it cost more to buy a snack at a lgs? Probably. Do I need to spend money/time-equivalent-to-money to go somewhere else to buy it cheaper? A resounding yes, and there's a good chance doing so costs the same amount as just buying it at the lgs. Such is absolutely NOT the case when looking at models that I can get for $25 less compared to the candy bar's $0.50 less elsewhere.
Also, "pay where you play" IS the debate, because we're saying the place needs to earn our money in another way besides just "I have tables." For the thousandth time, if I can get a $1000 order for $800 elsewhere, those tables aren't worth the $200 to me, although they ARE worth the 50 cents extra I'll pay on a snack. So people are saying "Hey because there's a high margin on snacks, and they're still cheap as feth, I'll buy those to support my lgs owner."
Davor wrote: The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
No, that wasn't the debate. That was only one facet of the debate and ignoring things like the practicality, convenience and the significance of the amount of money being saved is disingenuous.
No I am not wrong. That was the debate, saving money. Nobody ever once said about practicality or convenience or what not before until I said people were making excuses.
I can't remember who said it but someone did say "it's just giving it to GW" and then a few people replied "no it was about saving money", well if it was about saving money then people shouldn't be saying GW has a huge mark up and that is why people should buy else where". All I am saying you can't use that excuse because the FLGS have huge mark ups as well. I just find it funny when someone brings up why that excuse is wrong and then comes up with an excuse why their stance has changed then.
Want me to give it up? Don't tell me I am wrong. I have my opinion, you have your opinion. Don't agree, that is fine, but don't tell me I am wrong when I am not. I am not anymore wrong than you are.
hobojebus wrote: Flgs buys at 55% and sells at a discount their profit margin is way smaller than GW's, they make the sprues for pennies and sell for tens of pounds.
Flgs also have to pay rent, wages, utilities and taxes GW stores get that handled by the company.
Once again your using a false equivalency fallacy.
No I am not. I am saying if we are going on "principal" like someone claimed here, and now I forget who it was, then principle we should stick to. Once we stop going on principle were just doing the "stick it to GW then".
How about the person who works in that GW store? He pays taxes. He needs to pay his utilities when he/she goes home. They have a rent or mortgage as well. Again, no difference.
Look I agree with the whys. I am not complaining about that. All I am talking about is when someone said it's the principle and claiming "buy cheaper else where", but then making excuses when they don't do it. Simple as that. I do it as well. Before my current FLGS I bought GW where I could save the most money. I fully understand.
What about the guy driving the bus your screwing over by driving to work, or the convenience store owner you boned by using the vending machines at your cafeteria etc etc.
Emotional appeals like that are plain weak, I don't owe the shop manager a living any more than I owe anyone else.
Davor wrote: The debate was buying else where because it's cheaper. Now people are buying products that are marked up and they are doing exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.
No, that wasn't the debate. That was only one facet of the debate and ignoring things like the practicality, convenience and the significance of the amount of money being saved is disingenuous.
No I am not wrong. That was the debate, saving money. Nobody ever once said about practicality or convenience or what not before until I said people were making excuses.
I can't remember who said it but someone did say "it's just giving it to GW" and then a few people replied "no it was about saving money", well if it was about saving money then people shouldn't be saying GW has a huge mark up and that is why people should buy else where". All I am saying you can't use that excuse because the FLGS have huge mark ups as well. I just find it funny when someone brings up why that excuse is wrong and then comes up with an excuse why their stance has changed then.
Want me to give it up? Don't tell me I am wrong. I have my opinion, you have your opinion. Don't agree, that is fine, but don't tell me I am wrong when I am not. I am not anymore wrong than you are.
Maybe I should have been more specific, you are wrong about saying people moving the goalposts.
That's not up for debate, you're just wrong. People aren't moving the goalposts because right from the get go it wasn't simply about "saving money" it was about "saving serious money" and right from the get go we weren't talking about the principle of it.
I can understand why there was a bit of confusion there, but no one I can see has talked about "saving money on principle" except you, so therefore no one has moved any goalposts.
Davor wrote: No I am not. I am saying if we are going on "principal" like someone claimed here, and now I forget who it was, then principle we should stick to.
I think you should find that person and address your arguments directly to them because I can't find anyone who has used that argument, the only time the word "principle" was used in this thread (thank you ctrl+F) was Bottle arguing why he/she DOES buy from a GW store and yourself.
So yeah, we were never arguing saving money on principle to begin with. Maybe someone was talking about something several pages back that more closely matches your argument, but if that's the case then I'd say the discussion has simply naturally progressed because it's not what we've been talking about recently.
IMO I'd be sad if the local GW store OR the local FLGS store closed.... but I don't take personal responsibility for peoples' bad business practice and while I like the GW store manager, he's the one who chose to work for a store that doesn't give him the flexibility to bargain a discount, not my fault.
If we're talking on principle, on principle I think it's a store owner's job to get me to buy there and on principle guilting me with tables is not a sound business plan and on principle I don't think store owners should try and subsidise the cost of tables with more expensive miniatures because 90% of people aren't going to use the tables anyway.
I don't try and save money on principle, that's just purely a matter of practicality. I try and not throw money away if I can avoid it but it has nothing to do with principles, it's just the practical aspect of trying to avoid unnecessary large hits on my bank balance.
If we were talking about saving money on principle I'd not be doing this hobby in the first place. But I do try and get the most out of my (sadly) meagre budget.
The way I see it the store is providing a service that it's not charging for. If you truly want to support the store talk to the manager. Explain to him the problem and work out a solution. For example, the store could provide free hobby space for building/painting only for things that were purchased there (easy to prove with the bill). In the end you can't fund the store all on your own, so regardless where you personally buy your models the store will fail if it is run badly and fails to adapt.
hobojebus wrote: What about the guy driving the bus your screwing over by driving to work, or the convenience store owner you boned by using the vending machines at your cafeteria etc etc.
Emotional appeals like that are plain weak, I don't owe the shop manager a living any more than I owe anyone else.
Then why are people using the emotional appeal of the Local Gaming store needing to pay for rent, hydro, workers and what not? You don't own the local Friendly Gaming store anything at all either.
Many types of stores depend on "loss leaders" or things they pay for or take a loss on to get you in the store so you spend your money.
Square footage is expensive, freeing up the space to game and not for product is very much an example.
Your patronage in buying product in the store pays for that space.
It is "wrong" if the owner feels that those who come to game do not help pay for that space.
You pay for it or lose it.
Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.
Talizvar wrote: Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.
Now now, my fellow Canadian. We can't talk like this, we might hurt some people's feelings for actually saying the truth and need people to make excuses so they can feel better for their actions. I am sure a few people will come in and say how this is "not leeching" and will need to try and prove us wrong instead of respecting our opinion of something.
Talizvar wrote: Many types of stores depend on "loss leaders" or things they pay for or take a loss on to get you in the store so you spend your money. Square footage is expensive, freeing up the space to game and not for product is very much an example. Your patronage in buying product in the store pays for that space.
On the flip side, people who still buy product but don't use the gaming space are paying for a service they don't use.
I doubt any gaming store will be kept afloat by the purchases of the people who are playing in store, I don't think those people should subsidise the tables.
Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.
Or until the owner comes up with a better business plan.
Pushing the blame on to customers for not buying is insane and a great way to go out of business quickly. If people aren't buying in your store, it's a problem the owner needs to fix, not blame the customers.
Talizvar wrote: Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.
Now now, my fellow Canadian. We can't talk like this, we might hurt some people's feelings for actually saying the truth and need people to make excuses so they can feel better for their actions. I am sure a few people will come in and say how this is "not leeching" and will need to try and prove us wrong instead of respecting our opinion of something.
Well, to speak to those who may feel entitled to the use of the space "free and clear", do not fool yourself into thinking it is not noticed.
My local FLGS owner I have seen over time make things difficult for those who do not eventually buy at his store.
No sense having the valued patrons compete for space with those who are not.
I have had some interesting exchanges with the guy myself like:
Q "Hey! I would love to buy something but you seem to not carry what I want!"
A "Not my problem you like product from companies that like hiring former used car salesmen and tax collectors for staff. I would suggest you "diversify" your tastes."
Q "What the heck? You actually HAVE some FFG stuff in the store, did you kiss and make-up with your distributor or did you get a wrong shipment?"
A "When I can monthly go see a friend in a far city who has a better distributor than the one for my area, you get your stuff... monthly. No Christmas cards for my guy here."
Q "What is with all the new GW stuff? Does this mean they value your money again?"
A "When they clued-in that they do not run my store or get to tell me what I can or cannot have, I then buy their stuff. They are slow learners."
Q "Well, I guess I better pay for the place **again** when does rent come due and I will try to come by?"
A "Not to worry, I appear to have found even more people to support my business and their habit, I did not even have to hand out free samples at the street corner!"
Q "Look at all the MTG players... why do you carry any other product or put up with us tabletop gamers?"
A "It would help if you joined the group here, but you guys make up for it in character and clearing out shelf space."
The owner is a pretty quirky guy but seems to enjoy harassment of this nature: it gives him permission to dish it back.
Talizvar wrote: Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.
Now now, my fellow Canadian. We can't talk like this, we might hurt some people's feelings for actually saying the truth and need people to make excuses so they can feel better for their actions. I am sure a few people will come in and say how this is "not leeching" and will need to try and prove us wrong instead of respecting our opinion of something.
Well, to speak to those who may feel entitled to the use of the space "free and clear", do not fool yourself into thinking it is not noticed.
My local FLGS owner I have seen over time make things difficult for those who do not eventually buy at his store.
No sense having the valued patrons compete for space with those who are not.
I have had some interesting exchanges with the guy myself like:
Q "Hey! I would love to buy something but you seem to not carry what I want!"
A "Not my problem you like product from companies that like hiring former used car salesmen and tax collectors for staff. I would suggest you "diversify" your tastes."
Q "What the heck? You actually HAVE some FFG stuff in the store, did you kiss and make-up with your distributor or did you get a wrong shipment?"
A "When I can monthly go see a friend in a far city who has a better distributor than the one for my area, you get your stuff... monthly. No Christmas cards for my guy here."
Q "What is with all the new GW stuff? Does this mean they value your money again?"
A "When they clued-in that they do not run my store or get to tell me what I can or cannot have, I then buy their stuff. They are slow learners."
Q "Well, I guess I better pay for the place **again** when does rent come due and I will try to come by?"
A "Not to worry, I appear to have found even more people to support my business and their habit, I did not even have to hand out free samples at the street corner!"
Q "Look at all the MTG players... why do you carry any other product or put up with us tabletop gamers?"
A "It would help if you joined the group here, but you guys make up for it in character and clearing out shelf space."
The owner is a pretty quirky guy but seems to enjoy harassment of this nature: it gives him permission to dish it back.
The difference between a FLGS owner and a player: he was dumb enough to pay for retail space.
I have 'volunteered' at a FLGS on and off for over a decade. The number of months the store runs profitably in any given year can be counted on one hand. The owner would do better financially working 2 minimum wage jobs full time than 'investing' in the community. The customers range in age from 10 to 80 years old, so he has to be sensitive to the needs of more than 3 generations of people. The products he sells include miniatures, cards, military models, trains, gaming systems, books, paints, and an assortment of other stuff, so he has to be able to field questions on a set of hobby interests so diverse it makes us all look like noobs. An average day for him is about 12 hours spent sitting on a stool.
Despite all this, he still manages to work with a community of hobbyists to take some of that space and use it for events. More than 40% of the retail space is dedicated to gaming tables, which are in use just about every night of the week and all the time on weekends. Most of the people who show up are not there to buy anything, they are there to play with other people. Sometimes, the kids make fun of him, the parents get uppity about prices he cannot control, and the old timers tie him up in nostalgic talk about anything they choose for HOURS.
You have to be a little quirky to sign up for this. Other people would call it punishment.
Last Sunday. Kill Teams-my Necrons versus his Chaos Space Marines.
Must have been a slow night at the register.
I'm impressed at my local GW the manager still manages to get games in with people. It seems like he usually plays against people who are also in the store painting, so if the game gets put on hold for half an hour while the manager deals with customres it's no big deal because the opponent just paints for a while instead.
hobojebus wrote: What about the guy driving the bus your screwing over by driving to work, or the convenience store owner you boned by using the vending machines at your cafeteria etc etc.
Emotional appeals like that are plain weak, I don't owe the shop manager a living any more than I owe anyone else.
Then why are people using the emotional appeal of the Local Gaming store needing to pay for rent, hydro, workers and what not? You don't own the local Friendly Gaming store anything at all either.
The only time I've seen this brought up is in RESPONSE to people saying the GW employee needs to do those things, as if they're the only ones. That's not emotional appeal, that's pointing out that others are using an emotional appeal to give preferential treatment.
Other than that, the talking about buying snacks at the lgs is STILL ABOUT SAVING MONEY, it just seems like you don't understand what that can mean, though I've tried explaining it twice. It might cost me 50 cents more to buy a candy bar at the lgs, but it might also cost me 50 cents in gas to get to a convenience store, and that EVENS IT OUT, in fact saves me money to my mind because my time has a value as well, and it would take time to go to the convenience store. You can't even out the cost of models in the same way!
Talizvar wrote: Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.
Now now, my fellow Canadian. We can't talk like this, we might hurt some people's feelings for actually saying the truth and need people to make excuses so they can feel better for their actions. I am sure a few people will come in and say how this is "not leeching" and will need to try and prove us wrong instead of respecting our opinion of something.
We're all aware of how economics work (well, maybe not ALL of us). We're just saying the use of tables isn't valued equally or greater than the money we would have to spend to shop at a place, and it's not our responsibility to make it so, by going into our own heads and rewiring ourselves to say "Hey you know what, I SHOULD spend a large amount of extra money even though I'm allowed to be here without doing so!"
hobojebus wrote: What about the guy driving the bus your screwing over by driving to work, or the convenience store owner you boned by using the vending machines at your cafeteria etc etc.
Emotional appeals like that are plain weak, I don't owe the shop manager a living any more than I owe anyone else.
Then why are people using the emotional appeal of the Local Gaming store needing to pay for rent, hydro, workers and what not? You don't own the local Friendly Gaming store anything at all either.
It's only mentioned because people are conflating a privately owned shop with a retail store, the difference has to be pointed out.
You don't owe someone running a flgs a living no where have I said you do, all I've done is point out the flgs has costs a GW store does not.
if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.
I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.
hobojebus wrote: if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.
I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.
I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?
You don't owe someone running a flgs a living no where have I said you do, all I've done is point out the flgs has costs a GW store does not.
if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.
GW stores still have a cost to run, a failing store will tend to replace it's managers for not hitting sales goals but those stores are still not immune to the effects of being closed down if they are not turning a profit. GW frequently closes down stores, they close almost as many stores as they open each year so just like the FLGS they are in fact impacted by gamers not buying at their location. Their pricing threshold may be structured differently than a FLGS but they still have to remain within a reasonable target otherwise the store is a complete write off and it'll be closed down when their leases comes up for renewal. GW doesn't keep stores open that are running in the red. That may be great news for the people who want GW to burn, but it's a loss for anyone that uses the store even infrequently.
Over the last few years I've watched GW in our area all but shrink and disappear. They used to have several large shops with tables that supported the gaming community, then all of those locations closed and were replaced by one man closet stores that don't offer any space to play, then we saw even further shrinkage as half of the one man stores were closed within another years time. Everytime a store closes be it GW or an Indy FLGS the community gets smaller and gamers have fewer places to meet each other and network. You can't meet new friends on Amazon which is why people still need physical stores or clubs (and in the US stores fill in for the roles of the clubs)
You don't owe someone running a flgs a living no where have I said you do, all I've done is point out the flgs has costs a GW store does not.
if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.
GW stores still have a cost to run, a failing store will tend to replace it's managers for not hitting sales goals but those stores are still not immune to the effects of being closed down if they are not turning a profit. GW frequently closes down stores, they close almost as many stores as they open each year so just like the FLGS they are in fact impacted by gamers not buying at their location. Their pricing threshold may be structured differently than a FLGS but they still have to remain within a reasonable target otherwise the store is a complete write off and it'll be closed down when their leases comes up for renewal. GW doesn't keep stores open that are running in the red. That may be great news for the people who want GW to burn, but it's a loss for anyone that uses the store even infrequently.
Over the last few years I've watched GW in our area all but shrink and disappear. They used to have several large shops with tables that supported the gaming community, then all of those locations closed and were replaced by one man closet stores that don't offer any space to play, then we saw even further shrinkage as half of the one man stores were closed within another years time. Everytime a store closes be it GW or an Indy FLGS the community gets smaller and gamers have fewer places to meet each other and network. You can't meet new friends on Amazon which is why people still need physical stores or clubs (and in the US stores fill in for the roles of the clubs)
I agree with your post response there. I too have seen GW fall on their own sword as they drive the gaming community away, so as in the end the argumentative of "Oh, you HAVE to buy everything from GW, because... you'll run them out of business... as I watch the yearly price hike from 15-45.00, the degraded quality of the products, the less that you get in a box getting priced out of hand, and the game itself die, as GW continued to gut their golden goose.
The false narrative being thrown about here is that because the kid received a discount, that it was somehow "Wrong" that he build his GW kit in a GW store. The talk being thrown about here would be laughable if people didn't honestly believe it. As if the kid in question was never going to buy another GW product, again... I mean, seriously, That kid received a minimal discount, and people are braying on about closing the store because of it... ( I mean, never mind that that same kid is going to have to buy a rulebook, a codex, additional units, additional dice, paint, brushes, glue, green stuff, additional army units, maybe a novel or two... or three, the calendar, the Forge world gear, ETC, ETC ............ on and on, and on.)
All of the products have already been sufficiently MARKED UP, even on a bad day, and all the while said same GW shop is already cutting into the local game community, and all with a whopping one to three tables, a minimal hobby area, and a small shop. Point of order on that "Shrinking shop" issue as well- these stores are engaged in commerce, the shops have these areas in the stores at a whim to, make the products live, as people who walk by the shop see people putting the gear together. I mean, seriously, the hyperbole being thrown around is a little much.
hobojebus wrote: if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.
I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.
I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?
Yes it is, it's up to him and only him to meet his targets.
It's the free market you either do your job well or you get replaced.
Nobody owes anybody a living, it's a dog eat dog world where the strong do eat and the weak are meat.
hobojebus wrote: if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.
I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.
I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?
Yes it is, it's up to him and only him to meet his targets.
It's the free market you either do your job well or you get replaced.
Nobody owes anybody a living, it's a dog eat dog world where the strong do eat and the weak are meat.
Have you ever dealt with gamers?
This is an incredibly ridiculous statement to make.
hobojebus wrote: if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.
I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.
I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?
Yes it is, it's up to him and only him to meet his targets.
It's the free market you either do your job well or you get replaced.
Nobody owes anybody a living, it's a dog eat dog world where the strong do eat and the weak are meat.
That is true and I fully agree. Thing is you don't flaunt the product you buy from someone else in that person's face when his hands are tied on what he can and can not do.
hobojebus wrote: if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.
I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.
I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?
Yes it is, it's up to him and only him to meet his targets.
It's the free market you either do your job well or you get replaced.
Nobody owes anybody a living, it's a dog eat dog world where the strong do eat and the weak are meat.
Have you ever dealt with gamers?
This is an incredibly ridiculous statement to make.
No but I've worked in retail customer service and have had to deal with customers face to face, I've had them lie to my face I've had them start fights I've had them steal stuff.
By comparison introvert gamers would be child's play and not deserving of special consideration.
Peregrine wrote: The other thing about the GW store is the army cabinets. Some stores invest in putting up nice models, but not this one. The house armies are a Warhammer Empire army which shouldn't even exist anymore, and an Imperial Fists army that looks like it was painted with Elmer's Glue and Crayola markers. I tell him he should learn to paint if he's going to sell things for people to paint, and he tells me I just don't understand his style (which could be best described as Stucco.)
To make up for it, he's constantly nagging people to put their armies on display in his cabinet. The cabinet has an front facing door with a broken lock anyone can open, and it's right next to the front door. Models have vanished from there a few times, which makes sense when you think about the fact a) he doesn't get to sell them so he doesn't really care and b) people would be more likely to steal the nice models instead of the Ronald McDonald marines he keeps around. There is a nice looking Fire Raptor sitting in the cabinet right now, in this store where FW is forbidden. I think the only reason it's still there is because people know he will get all over their case if they try to use it on the tables.
I had terrain disappear from a local store that way - my terrain, and I was letting the store use it.
Then the manager wanted to know when I would replace the terrain he had allowed to be stolen....
Hell freezing over may have been part of my reply.
The Auld Grump - I don't just nurse a grudge - I raise it through childhood and makes sure that it gets into a good college.
Financial self-interest says buy where it's cheapest. Enjoyment self-interest says you want to keep the GW store in business, as it's where you paint/play.
GW stores aren't just retail, they're also a service. That's how they compete with their lower priced FLGS. They have much higher stock levels and much greater variety of product, so they usually have what you want.
There's no wrong/right in this matter. GW makes money no matter where you buy your GW product. But if you want to keep the GW store in business, it's wiser to support it.
hobojebus wrote: if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.
I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.
I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?
If we're trying to tug on heart strings here, I absolutely care less about a guy working at GW getting fired than I care about an FLGS going down the tube. Even if the GW store closed, I'm not going to feel as sorry for them as if an FLGS closed.
Why?
Because losing your job sucks, but having to close a small business is waaaaaay worse. If you're fired you're still getting paid up until you get fired and once you're fired and find a new job, that's basically the end of the story. If a small business fails it's often costing the owner a huge amount of personal stress and financial loss and when it finally closes they often have 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars tied up in the business either out of pocket or in debt. A small business owner is getting paid out of the store's profits so if the store isn't making profits, the owner isn't getting paid and may have to fire staff to avoid going even more horribly in debt.
GW is a multi million dollar multi national company, if a store closes they can absorb the loss and can treat it as a learning experience.
You also have the fact if an FLGS is making profit, that profit is typically staying in the community, if a GW makes profit above paying rent and the manager, that money is going overseas to the aforementioned multi-million dollar company.
John Prins wrote:Financial self-interest says buy where it's cheapest. Enjoyment self-interest says you want to keep the GW store in business, as it's where you paint/play.
GW stores aren't just retail, they're also a service. That's how they compete with their lower priced FLGS. They have much higher stock levels and much greater variety of product, so they usually have what you want.
There's no wrong/right in this matter. GW makes money no matter where you buy your GW product. But if you want to keep the GW store in business, it's wiser to support it.
Even that's not always true. Often the FLGS will have both a discounted price AND tables you can play on. The FLGS just a couple of minutes down the road from the local GW has tables you pay to play, but the tables are so much better, bigger and enough of them that you can actually organise a proper event.
Also since GW cut down the amount of product a store carries, it's not uncommon for the GW to not have something in stock that the two nearby FLGS's do have in stock.
Even that's not always true. Often the FLGS will have both a discounted price AND tables you can play on. The FLGS just a couple of minutes down the road from the local GW has tables you pay to play, but the tables are so much better, bigger and enough of them that you can actually organise a proper event.
That is not, however, how the original question was framed. My point was that IF the GW store is offering something the FLGS is NOT, and you paint/game in the GW store, it makes good sense to support the GW store despite higher prices, because they are offering you a service you value.
If the FLGS is offering everything the GW store is plus lower prices, they have out-competed GW on every front. And if this is the case, then by all means support the FLGS instead - you need never even step into a GW store at all.
If we're trying to tug on heart strings here, I absolutely care less about a guy working at GW getting fired than I care about an FLGS going down the tube. Even if the GW store closed, I'm not going to feel as sorry for them as if an FLGS closed.
Why?
Because losing your job sucks, but having to close a small business is waaaaaay worse. If you're fired you're still getting paid up until you get fired and once you're fired and find a new job, that's basically the end of the story. If a small business fails it's often costing the owner a huge amount of personal stress and financial loss and when it finally closes they often have 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars tied up in the business either out of pocket or in debt. A small business owner is getting paid out of the store's profits so if the store isn't making profits, the owner isn't getting paid and may have to fire staff to avoid going even more horribly in debt.
GW is a multi million dollar multi national company, if a store closes they can absorb the loss and can treat it as a learning experience.
You also have the fact if an FLGS is making profit, that profit is typically staying in the community, if a GW makes profit above paying rent and the manager, that money is going overseas to the aforementioned multi-million dollar company.
While we discussed the upcoming chaos stuff, the new cultists at the time, and the inner workings of the game. It isn't about being confrontational, either. Its about the modeling, playing, and interaction aspect, because once upon a time, 
is all I have to say to that offer.
So I still say it's not the right thing to do.
you" like going out of your way to make sure someone doesn't get credit for a sale. Except saying " 
