One of the founding principals of the Imperium and a prime human feeling is hate for all things Xenos. It is essentially law that any human, Space Marine, etc shoot and kill any Xenos on sight even irrationally because the Emperor wills it. If the Tau sends you a diplomatic envoy you kill it, if Orks freebooters suggest you hire them you kill it, if Eldar suggest you fight Chaos together you kill it. The Imperium of Man prides itself on relentless almost comically irrational hate for anyone who is not like them and xenophobia outdoing even the Nazis of human history.

SO HOW IN THE WORLD IS CREED/CELESTINE/SPACE WOLVES now working with Necrons, Dark Eldar, and worst of all the ELDAR? Fighting Chaos is no excuse for this unspeakable irredeemable heresy. The fluff has it so even the inquisitor is going along with this. Humans are naturally hateful mean vicious creatures. We clubbed all the Neanderthals to death on our own planet because they were so bloody ugly. We exterminated countless "peaceful/trading" Xenos civilizations during the Great Crusade along with the hostile ones because they were a threat even if they were at medieval age tech living in huts and we liked it. This is why all the other minor Xenos like space-mining Demurig and Kroot hate us because the Imperium/humans are insane genocidal murderers but we are proud of this. Be to human is to kill Xenos - because they are like parasites and cockroaches in the milky way galaxy that is only meant for beautiful humanity.

Is anyone upset that GW has ruined the fluff? The book even hints that the Astronomicon is ELDAR TECH? Wtf is this Heresy. Imperium would never rely on flithy Xenos technology as a centerpeice of humanity. 40k is ruined. This is complete bullcrap. Humanity is pure and holy we would never work with flithly Eldar, Dark Eldar, and the rest of them. All the previous times in the fluff it was only a temporarily alliance for extremely short periods and we planned to betray and kill them afterwards.

Are you guys happy with this heretical Necron/Eldar/Imperium alliance going on? I just can't.. Wow. I hope after Chaos is defeated, Imperium has a plan to butcher every single Eldar in their stupid glass-dome paradise city ships because this is such unspeakable heresy on the levels never seen before.

I thought I heard Fall of Cadia ends with the Imperium getting access to webway gates.

If this is true, it reinforces another Imperial maxim: take what the Xenos have and make it ours.

GW is not important enough to feel insulted.

A narrative Campaign they said. Narr ative. Narr... eine Kampagne für Narren.

Back on Track, I didn't buy any of this 7th ed Campaign stuff, so if they ruin the Background of 4ok I am going to ignore the whole fluff-heresy ASAP.

Humans work with Xenos all the time. It's a picking the lesser of two evils thing; they may be zealous xenophobes in general, but they're usually not stupid.

 n0t_u wrote:
Humans work with Xenos all the time. It's a picking the lesser of two evils thing; they may be zealous xenophobes in general, but they're usually not stupid.

We only work with them to kill them later though after they help us kill other Xenos at this moment. The fools muhaha. Right?

Well, from what I understand from the first book, the imperium aren't working with necrons in general, they're just being helped by one necron, trazyn.

And necron assistance isn't beyond the pale - the necron's aim for the galaxy is to eventually seal off the warp forever, and thus the necrons are incentivized to contain the eye of terror, and the best way to do that is to prevent cadia's destruction.

And as an aside, cadia was an ancient necron tomb world, and is home to several warp-sealing pylons. So, again, trazyn wants chaos to keep from spilling through.

As for the eldar, the just showed up at the end and basically said, "hey, if you don't want to blow up, come through this portal".

And like nOT_u said, imperium may be xenophobic, but they're smart enough to recognize help when it comes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, I've wondered this for a while: Was the emperor ultra-xenophobic? He probably saw humans as superior (what race doesn't consider themselves superior), and he did wage war against xenos for control of terrority, but I'm not sure if he did so out of outright hatred, or simply because they were in his way.

DorianGray wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Humans work with Xenos all the time. It's a picking the lesser of two evils thing; they may be zealous xenophobes in general, but they're usually not stupid.

We only work with them to kill them later though after they help us kill other Xenos at this moment. The fools muhaha. Right?

If you want to simplify it down to irrational hatred yeh. There's mutual respect at times.

The Imperium of the High Lords is a complete mockery and a treason of what the Emperor had in mind for humanity.

If only we could find a bunch of his sons to lead humanity into a golden age once more... I heard one of them is waiting for the writer to let him out of the Rock.

I've always thought the whole "always kill all aliens no matter what" was one of the more moronically stupid parts of the fluff, so no. I'm not upset.

Also both answers are basically the same, just two different ways of saying not happy with it.

I don't mind them working together (this time) but I don't want this to lead to some garbage super bros scenario where all the "good" races work together to defeat the big bads. GW's writing doesn't inspire me enough to think they will avoid that played out trope. More importantly the (I assume) eventual Orks involvement better not have them playing the henchmen/mook role for another faction.

 Vankraken wrote:
I don't mind them working together (this time) but I don't want this to lead to some garbage super bros scenario where all the "good" races work together to defeat the big bads. GW's writing doesn't inspire me enough to think they will avoid that played out trope. More importantly the (I assume) eventual Orks involvement better not have them playing the henchmen/mook role for another faction.

These are my thoughts too.

I don't like the Imperium willingly working with xenos but I can tolerate it as long as the promise of someone getting stabbed in the back (preferably the filthy arrogant Eldar) at the end of the day still exists.

"This will allow you access to the Webway, Mon'kiegh, use it to aid us in the fight against the great enemy"
"We thank you for your assistance, Eldar, but we shall never aid foul xenos creatures such as yourselves. The Emperor sends his regards."
"Uwawawawa....?"
<Bolter fire ensues>

When your head canon doesn't match the fluff, you will always get disappointed.
I think you have been reading too much 30k.

I just really hope that webway portal all the marines walked through led back to dungeon somewhere in Commoragh.

I'm quite happy, actually. I always hated blind hate for the xenos, the "Order" races should be able to stick together. My favorite Black LIbrary books usually have unlikely allies working together, so I was over the moon with Trazyn, (probably the best Necron, ever. Trollzyn is amazing) giving an hand and Eldars joining the fray.

And hell, the final battle according to Yriel's vision has all factions of Eldar and mankind fighting together, so we shall see if that vision comes true or not

There are multiple instances of this stuff in the fluff. Humans working with tau, orks for hire, etc... Its rarer but not unheard of when things are desperate.

Could the poll perhaps have an option of "yes, I am content with the fluff in fall of Cadia" rather than just two iterations of nope? Clearly their are people, as seen in this thread, who don't mind the collaberation.

I myself don't mind it: I could definitely see the Necrons, Dark Eldar, Eldar, etc. using the humans to rid themselves of the threat of chaos only to take advantage of the Imperium's weakened position after the war and I could see the desperate Imperium on the verge of the greatest war they have engaged in finally caving to Xenos help. Of course it doesn't matter either way, for in the end all will be chaos! MWAHAHAHAHA!

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
I don't mind them working together (this time) but I don't want this to lead to some garbage super bros scenario where all the "good" races work together to defeat the big bads. GW's writing doesn't inspire me enough to think they will avoid that played out trope. More importantly the (I assume) eventual Orks involvement better not have them playing the henchmen/mook role for another faction.

These are my thoughts too.

I don't like the Imperium willingly working with xenos but I can tolerate it as long as the promise of someone getting stabbed in the back (preferably the filthy arrogant Eldar) at the end of the day still exists.

"This will allow you access to the Webway, Mon'kiegh, use it to aid us in the fight against the great enemy"
"We thank you for your assistance, Eldar, but we shall never aid foul xenos creatures such as yourselves. The Emperor sends his regards."
"Uwawawawa....?"
<Bolter fire ensues>

On one hand I don't want the "every good guy faction bands together to defeat every bad guy faction" scenario, and I want orks to stay orky. On the other hand I don't want any betrayal to be caused by lawful stupid obligations/shenanigans, but instead for a reason that highlights the relationship between the IOM and the xenos in an interesting way.

the xenophilia in this thread is truely at a nausea inducing level.

if they pull a sigmar with order, chaos, death, and destruction ill be very unhappy

There have been imperial/xenos team ups since adeptus titanicus days.

When an imperial titan force, outnumbered by Chaos opponents spotted unfamiliar titans approaching from a different direction - turned out to be Eldar, there to also stop Chaos.

"Make no mistake, human. We do not fight with you, we fight AGAINST Chaos."

So it's just another "alliance of convenience" that the fluff is full of. Besides, if the BA aren't too good to ally with necrons, then it's good enough for the others.

Lol, nope GW hasn't ruined their fluff. They just created an explosive situation in their grim dark fictional future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obeying the law is for the working class and footsoldiers. Making dubious deals and being screwed over by them is the luxury of the elite ; )

I always liked the idea of the Imperium being desperate enough to throw in with all manner of Xenos species - helps ring home how dark things to come are going to be. Besides, it's not like they're going to work together if the Imperium ever makes it out of whatever GW has planned in the future in one piece.

Inquisition uses xenos all the bloody time, that's what Ordo Xenos radicals do.

The absolute moral superiority of the heart of the imperium and the ecclesiarchy are very different to the practical realities of the war fronts, especially when confronted by either of the big bads in Chaos or Nids.

As much as I have read into the situation on Cadia, it seemed more like bloody common sense than fluff ruining.

Necrons want to rule everything. Again. Can't do that if the warp (which they created fighting the C'Tan) is being a pain in the arse by allowing some crazy gak to come out of it.
Eldar and Dark Elder helping also is sense. They know more than any race the perils of chaos and the warp (they gave birth to Slaanesh, so I guess they don't want Humans doing the same mistake they did.)
If they add Orks, I'm hoping it's just because there will be one XBAWKS HEAUG fight. And Orks love fights!

In all, I think GW have pulled a blinder. While not to everyone's taste, it's certainly more thrilling than half the "universe ending stuff" that's happened the last 10+ years.
Just my 2 pence anyways.

This isn't really necon race who wants to rule anything as much as it is a single necron lord who sees the benefit of interacting with those idiots who keep messing with the containment devices meant to keep the horrific fallout of the last big war at bay.

DorianGray wrote:
One of the founding principals of the Imperium and a prime human feeling is hate for all things Xenos. It is essentially law that any human, Space Marine, etc shoot and kill any Xenos on sight even irrationally because the Emperor wills it. If the Tau sends you a diplomatic envoy you kill it, if Orks freebooters suggest you hire them you kill it, if Eldar suggest you fight Chaos together you kill it. The Imperium of Man prides itself on relentless almost comically irrational hate for anyone who is not like them and xenophobia outdoing even the Nazis of human history.

SO HOW IN THE WORLD IS CREED/CELESTINE/SPACE WOLVES now working with Necrons, Dark Eldar, and worst of all the ELDAR? Fighting Chaos is no excuse for this unspeakable irredeemable heresy. The fluff has it so even the inquisitor is going along with this. Humans are naturally hateful mean vicious creatures. We clubbed all the Neanderthals to death on our own planet because they were so bloody ugly. We exterminated countless "peaceful/trading" Xenos civilizations during the Great Crusade along with the hostile ones because they were a threat even if they were at medieval age tech living in huts and we liked it. This is why all the other minor Xenos like space-mining Demurig and Kroot hate us because the Imperium/humans are insane genocidal murderers but we are proud of this. Be to human is to kill Xenos - because they are like parasites and cockroaches in the milky way galaxy that is only meant for beautiful humanity.

Is anyone upset that GW has ruined the fluff? The book even hints that the Astronomicon is ELDAR TECH? Wtf is this Heresy. Imperium would never rely on flithy Xenos technology as a centerpeice of humanity. 40k is ruined. This is complete bullcrap. Humanity is pure and holy we would never work with flithly Eldar, Dark Eldar, and the rest of them. All the previous times in the fluff it was only a temporarily alliance for extremely short periods and we planned to betray and kill them afterwards.

Are you guys happy with this heretical Necron/Eldar/Imperium alliance going on? I just can't.. Wow. I hope after Chaos is defeated, Imperium has a plan to butcher every single Eldar in their stupid glass-dome paradise city ships because this is such unspeakable heresy on the levels never seen before.

Humanity and the Eldar have been connected, in terms of the fickleness of fate, since the Dark Age of Technology. It's just that now that is hitting the fan, some Eldar and Humans are realizing that. And it may be key to survival.


It's been assumed by many fans that the Astronomican was based on Eldar science (since it was a product of psychic technology) for the longest time. Ditto for the Imperial Webway Project.


As for Trollzyn's game, I don't know what his long term goals are. But I'm hoping that the Silent King (and other Necron lords) plays a role in the storm brewing up since Cadia fell.

The notion of extreme xenophobia has always been more of a guideline than an actual rule.

Fluff is rife with examples of the Imperium working with aliens, stealing their tech, or helping them when there's something to gain, and that's been the case for a long, long time.

As anyone can see from the poll results that NO ONE is happy with the fluff in Fall of Cadia. GW blew it AGAIN.

The Imperium needs to go back to raving genocidal racist murderers of aliens as they have always been and as the Emperor wills it. I hope this series ends with the extinction of the Eldar race with the human's taking over the Webway and hunting down all their craftworlds and destroying all their spirit stones.

Huh.

Oh.

Well then.

*Flies away*

Something tells me op is more xenophobic than anyone else in the imperium...you should become an inquisitor!

besides it doesn't help when you give no other option beside the negative ones. The poll is clearly bias in a "I am not happy and everything should go my way" sort of way.

Personally I love the change. It allows GW to keep the "Imperium is doomed" without a huge change, as the Eldar/Necron begin ignoring them to focus on Chaos. It could also allow an Imperial civil war between moderates and conservatives.

Choose your sides now, ladies and gentlemen.

Another point of view is that of the Imperials on Cadia. They are going to die if they stay on the planet. The xeno's which have proven allies of convenience, offer them a chance to live and get proper revenge on Abby. They would be absolutely mental and failing in their duties to the emperor if they passed up the chance.


Also, look at this from a non-imperial perspective. For me, its the Chaos Fans (My 2nd favourite after guard). Did chaos succeed? Technically, but I reckon most fans would be upset with how they did. However, for once Chaos felt like a proper unstoppable force, coming so close to their goal that the eldar and necrons both focused on them.
I don't know any eldar fans, so I can't say much for their perspective.
If the necron fans like Trazy, then they probably loved this. If they don't, then maybe not.

Bottom line, its not always about the Imperium winning by themselves, or the Imperial fans always getting the fluff they want. I think most people get that, but it bears repeating.

DorianGray wrote:
As anyone can see from the poll results that NO ONE is happy with the fluff in Fall of Cadia. GW blew it AGAIN.

The Imperium needs to go back to raving genocidal racist murderers of aliens as they have always been and as the Emperor wills it. I hope this series ends with the extinction of the Eldar race with the human's taking over the Webway and hunting down all their craftworlds and destroying all their spirit stones.

When your only poll options are "I don't like it" & "Mouthfrothingly hate it! Raaagh!", it's not surprising you only have results of people saying the didn't like it.... you didn't give anyone a chance to vote to say they like it or are fine with it or whatever.

This is worse than the many polls made by another user... and that's saying something.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
This is worse than the many polls made by another user... and that's saying something.

lol, sick burn

Not insulted at all, but as a Black Legion player and a Cadian player I feel that my 9 year old nephew could have come up with a better narrative.

DorianGray wrote:
One of the founding principals of the Imperium and a prime human feeling is hate for all things Xenos. It is essentially law that any human, Space Marine, etc shoot and kill any Xenos on sight even irrationally because the Emperor wills it. If the Tau sends you a diplomatic envoy you kill it, if Orks freebooters suggest you hire them you kill it, if Eldar suggest you fight Chaos together you kill it. The Imperium of Man prides itself on relentless almost comically irrational hate for anyone who is not like them and xenophobia outdoing even the Nazis of human history.

SO HOW IN THE WORLD IS CREED/CELESTINE/SPACE WOLVES now working with Necrons, Dark Eldar, and worst of all the ELDAR? Fighting Chaos is no excuse for this unspeakable irredeemable heresy. The fluff has it so even the inquisitor is going along with this. Humans are naturally hateful mean vicious creatures. We clubbed all the Neanderthals to death on our own planet because they were so bloody ugly. We exterminated countless "peaceful/trading" Xenos civilizations during the Great Crusade along with the hostile ones because they were a threat even if they were at medieval age tech living in huts and we liked it. This is why all the other minor Xenos like space-mining Demurig and Kroot hate us because the Imperium/humans are insane genocidal murderers but we are proud of this. Be to human is to kill Xenos - because they are like parasites and cockroaches in the milky way galaxy that is only meant for beautiful humanity.

Is anyone upset that GW has ruined the fluff? The book even hints that the Astronomicon is ELDAR TECH? Wtf is this Heresy. Imperium would never rely on flithy Xenos technology as a centerpeice of humanity. 40k is ruined. This is complete bullcrap. Humanity is pure and holy we would never work with flithly Eldar, Dark Eldar, and the rest of them. All the previous times in the fluff it was only a temporarily alliance for extremely short periods and we planned to betray and kill them afterwards.

Are you guys happy with this heretical Necron/Eldar/Imperium alliance going on? I just can't.. Wow. I hope after Chaos is defeated, Imperium has a plan to butcher every single Eldar in their stupid glass-dome paradise city ships because this is such unspeakable heresy on the levels never seen before.

Hmm well its happened in the official fluff since day one - the Imperium of Man has its pragmatic moments and characters and throughout the fluff, be that Codex, White Dwarf or Black Library there are hundreds of instances of co-operation between humanity and various Xenos.

Many of these are quire small, others huge - they range from Ambassadors, Space Wolves honouring fallen Eldar through to fleets co-operating in open battle in the Gothic Sector.

Almost all are short term alliances against a common foe - usually Chaos or Tyranids. These alliances seldom last longer than the conflict as neither side really trusts the other.

The elder themselves said way back in the old Adeptus Titanicus rules something along the lines "Mon-Keigh, understand that we do not fight with you, we fight against Horus"

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
As anyone can see from the poll results that NO ONE is happy with the fluff in Fall of Cadia. GW blew it AGAIN.

The Imperium needs to go back to raving genocidal racist murderers of aliens as they have always been and as the Emperor wills it. I hope this series ends with the extinction of the Eldar race with the human's taking over the Webway and hunting down all their craftworlds and destroying all their spirit stones.

When your only poll options are "I don't like it" & "Mouthfrothingly hate it! Raaagh!", it's not surprising you only have results of people saying the didn't like it.... you didn't give anyone a chance to vote to say they like it or are fine with it or whatever.

This is worse than the many polls made by another user... and that's saying something.

From reading the original post, and seeing the poll, I strongly suspect the OP has a very dry sense of humour (that's a compliment from a Brit btw).

DorianGray wrote:
One of the founding principals of the Imperium and a prime human feeling is hate for all things Xenos. It is essentially law that any human, Space Marine, etc shoot and kill any Xenos on sight even irrationally because the Emperor wills it. If the Tau sends you a diplomatic envoy you kill it, if Orks freebooters suggest you hire them you kill it, if Eldar suggest you fight Chaos together you kill it. The Imperium of Man prides itself on relentless almost comically irrational hate for anyone who is not like them and xenophobia outdoing even the Nazis of human history.

Humans have worked with Eldars in the past as well. What's so special snowflakety snowflake here to get so upset?

"It was fine when they did it before but now it's bad"?

tneva82 wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
One of the founding principals of the Imperium and a prime human feeling is hate for all things Xenos. It is essentially law that any human, Space Marine, etc shoot and kill any Xenos on sight even irrationally because the Emperor wills it. If the Tau sends you a diplomatic envoy you kill it, if Orks freebooters suggest you hire them you kill it, if Eldar suggest you fight Chaos together you kill it. The Imperium of Man prides itself on relentless almost comically irrational hate for anyone who is not like them and xenophobia outdoing even the Nazis of human history.

Humans have worked with Eldars in the past as well. What's so special snowflakety snowflake here to get so upset?

"It was fine when they did it before but now it's bad"?

Of course it is. It is the main focus of a relevant narrative! We can't have them be rational (or follow other cases of canon) for once instead of frothing morons.

Am I the only one who finds it a bit creepy when they see people in this fandom rabidly cheering for the mass speciocide of fictional aliens?

 Robin5t wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it a bit creepy when they see people in this fandom rabidly cheering for the mass speciocide of fictional aliens?

Nope. I thought this was an RP thread for a good minute.

Also, yeah, this poll is the biggest troll-poll I've seen on this site thus far - and I didn't think it could get worse. The results are so skewed probably because the poll question and the topic question are complete opposites, and the poll only has one answer in reality, because no matter what you pick, it affirms OP's position because both answers equal being unhappy with the story.

The very good story, I might add.

DorianGray wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Humans work with Xenos all the time. It's a picking the lesser of two evils thing; they may be zealous xenophobes in general, but they're usually not stupid.

We only work with them to kill them later though after they help us kill other Xenos at this moment. The fools muhaha. Right?

Then I suggest you also kill all psykers, ratlings and ogryns to begin with. Then move on to wulfen and the death company. If you want to be pure then be pure.

 Imateria wrote:
I just really hope that webway portal all the marines walked through led back to dungeon somewhere in Commoragh.

Came here to say exactly this.

Hundreds of Templars cautiously retreat through the alien portal, only to find themselves materialising in the Crucibael arena at the heart of Commorragh. Betrayed and disoriented, they're cut down to a man (despite their brave and valiant struggles).

Deep within the bowels of Commorragh, sick and twisted minds set to work creating their latest masterpiece.

*Cue release of new Dark Eldar covens GMC made of chopped-up bits of Templar

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
As anyone can see from the poll results that NO ONE is happy with the fluff in Fall of Cadia. GW blew it AGAIN.

The Imperium needs to go back to raving genocidal racist murderers of aliens as they have always been and as the Emperor wills it. I hope this series ends with the extinction of the Eldar race with the human's taking over the Webway and hunting down all their craftworlds and destroying all their spirit stones.

When your only poll options are "I don't like it" & "Mouthfrothingly hate it! Raaagh!", it's not surprising you only have results of people saying the didn't like it.... you didn't give anyone a chance to vote to say they like it or are fine with it or whatever.

This is worse than the many polls made by another user... and that's saying something.

I am with you here. I voted no because I am not insulted by them breaking the fluff.

Finally we get to see a "Come the Apocalypse" scenario that the allies chart depicts.

I don't mind If humans worked with some factions of the Tau, Eldar and maybe a Kabal that vastly separates itself from Com town...

In fact it's stupid to fight all these aliens at once... why not make some pals?

Because usually those 'pals' will stab you in the back at a second's notice?

Hard to forge lasting alliances (or 'act sensibly') when damn near every single alien race you encounter is hostile.

The reason the Imperium is as xenophobic as it is...is because they've learnt the hard way that consorting with xenos gets you killed.

bollocks. The Imperium has been at the forefront of arriving somewhere and just saying we don´t like you DIE.

Just read the Horus Heresy

 rawne2510 wrote:
bollocks. The Imperium has been at the forefront of arriving somewhere and just saying we don´t like you DIE.

Just read the Horus Heresy

Yep. Learnt from their experiences during The Old Night.

In 40k, aliens are nasty b*stards. Humanity are nasty b*stards. Anyone that's not a nasty b*stard tends to die quickly as the other nasty b*stards sense an opportunity.

Rampant xenophobia is a genuinely sensible foreign policy for them.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
bollocks. The Imperium has been at the forefront of arriving somewhere and just saying we don´t like you DIE.

Just read the Horus Heresy

Yep. Learnt from their experiences during The Old Night.

In 40k, aliens are nasty b*stards. Humanity are nasty b*stards. Anyone that's not a nasty b*stard tends to die quickly as the other nasty b*stards sense an opportunity.

Rampant xenophobia is a genuinely sensible foreign policy for them.

In fairness, the heresy places as much blame on the Imperium itself as the Xeno's

Interex- Mainly a case of misunderstanding, but the Imperium still escalated the situation into War.
Auretian- Hrous declares war on them without provokation, but nobody gives a damn.
Laer- The Imperium actually considered making friends with them, but Fulgrim wouldn't have any of that.
Diasporex- They have xeno's, so they must die.

None of those started a full out war with the Imperium, although in fairness none were exactly pacifistic cultures. But there is a literal mountain of fluff about Xeno and Human working together and then parting amicably. Obvious examples include:
The entire fething planet of Tallarn with the Eldar.
A whole bunch of Tau fluff.
Battlefleet Gothic's fluff.
Both of Cain's books that feature the Tau
The 2nd Gaunt's Ghosts book.
The thing with the blood angels and the Necrons.
And finally, although it hurts my soul to bring it up, the alliance between Gabe and Macha in the DoW books.

Bottom line, there has been cooperation all the time, from Tallarn back in the old edition to BA/Necrons recently. Why is this particular fluff a problem?

Mudrat wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
bollocks. The Imperium has been at the forefront of arriving somewhere and just saying we don´t like you DIE.

Just read the Horus Heresy

Yep. Learnt from their experiences during The Old Night.

In 40k, aliens are nasty b*stards. Humanity are nasty b*stards. Anyone that's not a nasty b*stard tends to die quickly as the other nasty b*stards sense an opportunity.

Rampant xenophobia is a genuinely sensible foreign policy for them.

In fairness, the heresy places as much blame on the Imperium itself as the Xeno's

Interex- Mainly a case of misunderstanding, but the Imperium still escalated the situation into War.
Auretian- Hrous declares war on them without provokation, but nobody gives a damn.
Laer- The Imperium actually considered making friends with them, but Fulgrim wouldn't have any of that.
Diasporex- They have xeno's, so they must die.

None of those started a full out war with the Imperium, although in fairness none were exactly pacifistic cultures. But there is a literal mountain of fluff about Xeno and Human working together and then parting amicably. Obvious examples include:
The entire fething planet of Tallarn with the Eldar.
A whole bunch of Tau fluff.
Battlefleet Gothic's fluff.
Both of Cain's books that feature the Tau
The 2nd Gaunt's Ghosts book.
The thing with the blood angels and the Necrons.
And finally, although it hurts my soul to bring it up, the alliance between Gabe and Macha in the DoW books.

Bottom line, there has been cooperation all the time, from Tallarn back in the old edition to BA/Necrons recently. Why is this particular fluff a problem?

In regards to the Tallarn, it wasn't just any Eldar. It was freakin' Biel Tan . The biggest Human haters among the Craftworld Eldar.


The hardy folks of Tallarn must have made one hell of an impression on the Biel Tan Eldar.

That's why I said some forms of Eldar, Tau and DE.

In order for this to work I'm not saying sit down every night and tell jokes while you both eat at the dinner table. I'm talking about having a common understanding that there are better people and things to fight out there then two semi civilized governments or entities warring it out. Examples include Orks, Nids, Chaos, Crons, other dangerous alien races.

This is going on to be horrible to say but think of the Imperium like Nazi Germany or Rome. You can't fight everyone and have lines surrounding your territory and expect to win or be successful. Nazi Germany were fighting a front against the Soviets and the US and her allies. The Romans were fighting fronts with Asian and the Barbarians to the North-West.

Sometimes having friendships that normally wouldn't happen but beneficial to both factions is the lessor of two evils. I think some Eldar would appreciate this and I know the Tau would seeing as how small their empire is.

usmcmidn wrote:


This is going on to be horrible to say but think of the Imperium like Nazi Germany or Rome. You can't fight everyone and have lines surrounding your territory and expect to win or be successful. Nazi Germany were fighting a front against the Soviets and the US and her allies. The Romans were fighting fronts with Asian and the Barbarians to .

ueh.... by the time west RE fell majority of their armed forces was "barbarian". Auxilla we're traditionally barbarians (e.g. Caesars Britain campaign, batavian auxilla swam rivers and flanked the natives.

Romes early success in Italy, a large part was binding other "italian" cities to them. (and the reason Hannibal lost was the strength of these alliances).

Romes fell for a lot of reasons, but not xenophobia.

Nazi Germany, especially easy front, had people from all over Europe in SS and Romania, Bulgaria, Finland fought ussr directly.

also Nazi Germany had excellent relation with and support for/from Muslim leaders.

EDIT: And East time famously had the varangian guard. After manzikert most of ERE army was mercenary until its final fall.

For diplomacy/foreign policy west Rome is almost identical to the tau.

 Fruzzle wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:


This is going on to be horrible to say but think of the Imperium like Nazi Germany or Rome. You can't fight everyone and have lines surrounding your territory and expect to win or be successful. Nazi Germany were fighting a front against the Soviets and the US and her allies. The Romans were fighting fronts with Asian and the Barbarians to .

ueh.... by the time west RE fell majority of their armed forces was "barbarian". Auxilla we're traditionally barbarians (e.g. Caesars Britain campaign, batavian auxilla swam rivers and flanked the natives.

Romes early success in Italy, a large part was binding other "italian" cities to them. (and the reason Hannibal lost was the strength of these alliances).

Romes fell for a lot of reasons, but not xenophobia.

Nazi Germany, especially easy front, had people from all over Europe in SS and Romania, Bulgaria, Finland fought ussr directly.

also Nazi Germany had excellent relation with and support for/from Muslim leaders.

EDIT: And East time famously had the varangian guard. After manzikert most of ERE army was mercenary until its final fall.

For diplomacy/foreign policy west Rome is almost identical to the tau.

Thanks for this. As a casual historian I probably would have gone mouth-frothingly crazy and then typed something much less eloquent.

Mudrat wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:


This is going on to be horrible to say but think of the Imperium like Nazi Germany or Rome. You can't fight everyone and have lines surrounding your territory and expect to win or be successful. Nazi Germany were fighting a front against the Soviets and the US and her allies. The Romans were fighting fronts with Asian and the Barbarians to .

ueh.... by the time west RE fell majority of their armed forces was "barbarian". Auxilla we're traditionally barbarians (e.g. Caesars Britain campaign, batavian auxilla swam rivers and flanked the natives.

Romes early success in Italy, a large part was binding other "italian" cities to them. (and the reason Hannibal lost was the strength of these alliances).

Romes fell for a lot of reasons, but not xenophobia.

Nazi Germany, especially easy front, had people from all over Europe in SS and Romania, Bulgaria, Finland fought ussr directly.

also Nazi Germany had excellent relation with and support for/from Muslim leaders.

EDIT: And East time famously had the varangian guard. After manzikert most of ERE army was mercenary until its final fall.

For diplomacy/foreign policy west Rome is almost identical to the tau.

Thanks for this. As a casual historian I probably would have gone mouth-frothingly crazy and then typed something much less eloquent.

As a fellow casual historian I can relate to that ! But than I also hate how people "go off" on people on the internet for not knowing something and my friendly side won out!

I'm sure I also have some misunderstandings/misrememberings in that post.

My pleasure

The imperium coorperating with Xenos under extreme conditions is nothing new.


The Black Templars cooperating with xenos is completely unexpected. The story doesn't give us time to go through the thoughts in the black Templar leaders head. I suspect a few words from Celestine would be enough to get him on board, if they were believed to come from the emperor himself.

The Imperium is pragmatic if nothing else. If the choice is "Work with the filthy xeno now to purge them later" versus "Dying horribly" the Imperium will usually pick the former.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The imperium coorperating with Xenos under extreme conditions is nothing new.

The Black Templars cooperating with xenos is completely unexpected. The story doesn't give us time to go through the thoughts in the black Templar leaders head. I suspect a few words from Celestine would be enough to get him on board, if they were believed to come from the emperor himself.

Yeah it's less the Imperium in general co-operating with xenos. That's happened on multiple occasions. It's more that it's the Black Templars.

If you put a Blood Angel in a room with a Tau Fire Warrior and a Tyranid Ravenor he'd probably make an agreement that the Fire Warrior would plink away at the Ravenor with his super-shooty gun while he tied it up in close combat, and maybe...just maybe they'd get out of the room alive.

If you put a Templar in a room with a Fire Warrior and a Ravenor the Fire Warrior would suggest this course of action, the Templar would burn the filthy xeno alive with his flamer and try and beat the Ravenor to death with his mace. Either he'd win and the threats would be purged, or he'd die a glorious death in the name of the Emperor.

Templars would rather die than align with xenos. Remember, this is the army that in a universe of fantastically powerful ranged weaponry chooses to stride purposefully across the battlefield and hit the enemy in the face with their massive sword. Stubbornness is sort of their schtick, even if it is nonsensical.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The imperium coorperating with Xenos under extreme conditions is nothing new.

The Black Templars cooperating with xenos is completely unexpected. The story doesn't give us time to go through the thoughts in the black Templar leaders head. I suspect a few words from Celestine would be enough to get him on board, if they were believed to come from the emperor himself.

Yeah it's less the Imperium in general co-operating with xenos. That's happened on multiple occasions. It's more that it's the Black Templars.

If you put a Blood Angel in a room with a Tau Fire Warrior and a Tyranid Ravenor he'd probably make an agreement that the Fire Warrior would plink away at the Ravenor with his super-shooty gun while he tied it up in close combat, and maybe...just maybe they'd get out of the room alive.

If you put a Templar in a room with a Fire Warrior and a Ravenor the Fire Warrior would suggest this course of action, the Templar would burn the filthy xeno alive with his flamer and try and beat the Ravenor to death with his mace. Either he'd win and the threats would be purged, or he'd die a glorious death in the name of the Emperor.

Templars would rather die than align with xenos. Remember, this is the army that in a universe of fantastically powerful ranged weaponry chooses to stride purposefully across the battlefield and hit the enemy in the face with their massive sword. Stubbornness is sort of their schtick, even if it is nonsensical.

Fair points, I guess the Templars get talked out of it by Celestine, Creed and the other commanders. To my knowledge we don't know who commands the BT on Cadia, so we can't say how likely this course of action is.

Yeah I suppose a living saint would be one of the few beings capable of persuading a Templar not to burn xenos on sight.

I'm still hoping it will end in betrayal though. Something like the portal actually leads to another warzone somewhere else in the galaxy, and the eldar just dump the Templars there unassisted.

Eldar get to manipulate the mon'keigh to suit their own ends, and the Templars get to be all awesome and Marine-y and hit things with their swords and stuff.

Technically they help each other out, but it's only as a thinly veiled superscript to their own self-interest.

Frankly, i think its about time.

Look, i understand, there's an aesthetic right? Grimdark!

But somewhere along down the line Common Sense > Grimdark....

I think that's been the most unbelievable aspect of 40K for me. Not the Bugs that Eat Everything, the Killer Robots from Egypt, the Green Skin soccer hooligans,

But in the face of overwhelming odds and unrelenting horror......... people who can -sorta- stand each other are still fighting each other.

I compare that with the situation in Warhammer Fantasy toward the EndTime. Do Dwarves hate Elves. sure. Do Humans distrust them? of Course. And all of them dislike Vampires/Undead....

And yet Chaos and the Skaven (who i guess stand in for the Tyranids in Fantasy) are coming...and they hate all of you... and they will probably kill you all.

So...until this overwhelming and collective threat is dissipated, it might behoove everyone to just focus on fighting the Greater Threat. We can go back to stabbing each other in the back later.


Peoples, Countries, Governments, etc. do this -all- the time in the real world.

And i also think that...ultimately, even if there is not so much permanent alliances but, "higher degree of cooperation" between the Imperium, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau....

......they are still screwed.




I actually had a thread about it on this board a while back.

Let's pretend for a moment that the Imperium decided to formally recognize the Tau Empire as a Treaty Partner.

Does anything -really- change? Yes, the Imperium and the Tau are not fighting each other........


....still doesn't stop Chaos from trying to come through.....
....still doesn't stop Greenskin Waaaghs!.....
....still doesn't stop Necrons from rising up.....
...still doesn't stop the Tyranid invasion fleets....

Let's add the Eldar (Craftworld/Dark/Exodite) to this Treaty Party....

Anything change in everyones favor?

Only thing i can think of is Webway Access...

Webway Access ain't going to stop the New and Improved 13th Black Crusade...

Not going to end the fighting on Armageddon..

Those Hive Fleets are still inbound.


The point i'm trying to make is that even if we were to get a full on real world style "Grand Alliance" akin to World war II allies....still doesn't seem to put too much of a dent in their collective enemies forces.

FIrst off "Only fools believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Personnally I get it, BUT THE 227th WILL NEVER FALTER! (basically my personaly regiemtn will still treat them like the xenos filith they are)

I prefer "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend, but as long as they are around, they have more important things to shoot at".

CommanderRednaxela wrote:
FIrst off "Only fools believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Personally I get it, BUT THE 227th WILL NEVER FALTER! (basically my personal regiment will still treat them like the xenos filth they are)

That's perfectly understandable, as a matter of fact its one of the things I want to see. A civil war in the Imperium between those who want to work with Xeno's and those who don't. I would imagine its divisive enough that just about every institution could be split, down to individual Astartes chapter's.

Point in case. My personal regiment's fluff has had some bad experiences with Necrons (about 230-something survivors) so they'd never be happy working with a Necron. However, they might be more accepting to a Eldar or Tau, who hasn't brutally murdered the feth out of them. It would also allow civil wars between the factions working with xeno's over which species are suitable for alliances.

Also, both of our forces are just guard regiments, so if we expressed these sentiments we'd probably be shot and have a suitably understanding fellow put in charge.

I've always worked by the Eldar take on alliances for most 40k stuff.

'The enemy of my enemy is my meatshield'

2nd ed grim fluff forever

All this new stuff is way too generic sci fi

The imperium is a xenophobic, distopian religious zealot empire that has backwards technology and is slowly and surely slipping into its own destruction.

He who allows the alien to live shares in the crime of its existence.

OP is forgetting the campaign supplement from well over a year ago called Shield of Baal.

In which the Blood Angles work with the Necrons to stop the Nids.

This is not the first, and will not be the last, time the Imperium of Man has worked with Xenos.

Roleplayer1 wrote:
2nd ed grim fluff forever

All this new stuff is way too generic sci fi

The imperium is a xenophobic, distopian religious zealot empire that has backwards technology and is slowly and surely slipping into its own destruction.

He who allows the alien to live shares in the crime of its existence.

This. The fact that 40k was, despite all the referencing and drawing from other IPs, something truly unique in the breadth of it's grimdarkness was what made me fall in love with it.

I don't want to read another 'LoTR...in spaaace' where the elves and humans sort of aren't sure about each other but eventually unite against the horrible evil orks and save the day. Boring.

I want to read about the vast interstellar empire of humanity not beign the shining beacon of hope you usually find, but being the single most brutal, dogmatic, xenophobic galactic civilisation in all of fiction. I want to read about space-elves that view humans as little more than cattle, or at best a meatshield to throw into the path of bullets that were intended for them.

I want to read about the empire of humanity fighting the evil forces of chaos (who, when you read a bit deeper, are no more evil than the 'good' guys). I want to read about them reaching out to the Eldar, and the Eldar weighing it up and deciding that it actually works out better for them if they let each side duke it out and then sweep in at the end and cull any survivors.

I want to read about nuance. A universe populated by grey areas between what's right and wrong. I want to read about something that actually feels realistic, rather than unrealistic black and white goodies and baddies.

Oh, and if anyone brings up the argument 'they're not stupid, if there's a greater threat they would totally team up' that's b*llocks based on real-world interactions.

The Israelites and the Palestinians have been fighting off and on for quite a few decades now. If suddenly Turkey starts invading Israel, and makes a couple of threatening gestures towards Palestine, do you think they're going to jump into bed with each other straight away? I severely doubt it. The animosity runs deep.

Lets make the example a bit more western shall we? Lets take Al Qaeda and the States. How readily do you think they'd be willing to unite against a common enemy? Even if they did, would you not think that they'd try and get one over on their hated enemy? Perhaps delay their forces slightly so that they would still emerge victorious, but the other side is

That's after a little over a decade of fighting. The IoM and the Eldar have been in conflict for over 10,000 years. In that context, the utter xenophobia and hatred is utterly expected.

 Lance845 wrote:
OP is forgetting the campaign supplement from well over a year ago called Shield of Baal.

In which the Blood Angles work with the Necrons to stop the Nids.

This is not the first, and will not be the last, time the Imperium of Man has worked with Xenos.

Oh god don't get me started on that abortion. One of the more pants-on-head stupid pieces of inter-species co-operation I've ever heard read.

I remember when I first read about the Necrons the fluff behind them filled me with so much dread. It was beautiful.

They were undead robots led by Lovecraftian star-gods from before even the Eldar remember, rising from the depths of pre-history to harvest the galaxy. Terrifying.

Now, we've got the same boring old 'lets build an empire!' narrative that every other race (save the Tyranids and Orks) have, except with metal space egyptians instead. Yawn.

I had a piece of headcanon that the Necrons couldn't even communicate with the younger races of the galaxy. Why on earth would a race from 60,000,000+ years ago have anything in common language-wise to the younger races. It'd be like a thought-to-be-extinct dinosaur rising from the depth of the earth...and being able to speak English. I know it's a sci-fi trope that the universe speaks English, but at least with the Eldar/Tau/Orks the IoM's been around them long enough to decrypt at least some of their language.

As for allying with the pathetic worms that are infesting the galaxy (as the Necrons would view humanity), I have no idea why they'd deem the Tyranids to be a mutual threat at all, let alone one that would necessitate alliance with aforementioned juvenile vampiric vertebrates.

You're an immortal, soul-less robot who no longer needs sustenance, warmth or even an atmosphere. For you, living on a barren rock would be functionally identical to living on a jungle planet. Except it would be easier to walk around on.

For the Necrons, Tyranids are something that happens to other people...

It smacks of someone desperately scrabbling around for a Deus Ex Machina/Shyamalan Twist unexpected ally to swoop in and save the day so our protagonists don't get eaten by space bugs. Ill-thought out.

Ok. I'll get off my soap-box now :S apologies for the rant!

Not really. The Imperium has always done short-term alliances with the more rational xenos against forces like Chaos and Tyranids.

And long term alliances with xenos that they can control, IE grease-monkies.

In one of the caphias cain novels he attends a war council between Imperial leaders and a water caste envoy. The local Imperial leaders can tell they can't win against the tau and would just be wasting resources. Also there's a more important tyrannid threat they come together over.

DorianGray wrote:
If the Tau sends you a diplomatic envoy you kill it.

If the humans of the imperium were that brainwashed, there wouldn't be any gue'vesa.

Edit: I'm not sure about the seriousness of the OP. Getting a Poe's Law feeling.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
...Oh, and if anyone brings up the argument 'they're not stupid, if there's a greater threat they would totally team up' that's b*llocks based on real-world interactions...

It isn't the stupidest argument in the world, but it tends to get treated as such. When presented with a greater immediate threat various factions in the game may, or have, or do 'team up', but 'team up' tends to mean 'not shoot each other over the short term', not 'offer trust, share command structure, have tea, and discover the other side is actually pretty cool'. See the Winter Assault campaign (featuring short-term teeth-clenched cooperation between a Chaos Lord and an Ork Warboss facing off against an equally-strained team-up between a Farseer and a Guard General, both of which end in betrayal so one faction can grab the final objective) for a good illustration of what 'teaming up against a common threat' actually looks like in the 40k setting.

 Melissia wrote:
Not really. The Imperium has always done short-term alliances with the more rational xenos against forces like Chaos and Tyranids.

And long term alliances with xenos that they can control, IE grease-monkies.

Agreed on the short-term alliances thing, but that's not what this feels like. 'Step into a new dawn, if you're brave enough' or whatever the quote is feels suspiciously like a Grand Alliance forming which I would not be happy about.

Perfectly happy with Eldar/Tau and the Mon'Keigh not killing each other for the moment, but then pushing one another under a bus at the earliest opportunity.

Necrons just strained my suspension of disbelief as I still cannot fathom a reasonable explanation why the Necrons would give two hoots what happens to some Blood Angels

Also, I think the techy-orangutans get a pass because they're not exactly an intelligent species. They're more like animals...that just so happen to be able to make Lascannons out of random bits and pieces. It's less an alliance, more Grox with Digital Weapons. That's my understanding anyway, as the IoM has been shown to casually annihilate other primitive species they deem to be a threat rather than enslaving them (eg. what they were going to do to the Tau).

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
In one of the caphias cain novels he attends a war council between Imperial leaders and a water caste envoy. The local Imperial leaders can tell they can't win against the tau and would just be wasting resources. Also there's a more important tyrannid threat they come together over.

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
...Oh, and if anyone brings up the argument 'they're not stupid, if there's a greater threat they would totally team up' that's b*llocks based on real-world interactions...

It isn't the stupidest argument in the world, but it tends to get treated as such. When presented with a greater immediate threat various factions in the game may, or have, or do 'team up', but 'team up' tends to mean 'not shoot each other over the short term', not 'offer trust, share command structure, have tea, and discover the other side is actually pretty cool'. See the Winter Assault campaign (featuring short-term teeth-clenched cooperation between a Chaos Lord and an Ork Warboss facing off against an equally-strained team-up between a Farseer and a Guard General, both of which end in betrayal so one faction can grab the final objective) for a good illustration of what 'teaming up against a common threat' actually looks like in the 40k setting.

Very good points I just feel like the whole 'Grand Alliance' direction would be a mistake if they lump the Eldar in with the IoM against Chaos/Orks/Nids whatever. It makes the eldar feel too much like the 'good' guys, rather than the xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal aliens they actually are

I must play Winter Assault now that you've mentioned that as that sounds like exactly what I was imagining. Not 'welcoming the xenocidal Templars into the webway to forge a new alliance of man and elfeldar'

I'll reserve judgement until the book comes out. so much potential to get it absolutely right, but so much risk of making it terrible...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Necrons just strained my suspension of disbelief as I still cannot fathom a reasonable explanation why the Necrons would give two hoots what happens to some Blood Angels

It's not so much that the Necrons care about the Blood Angels than they care about the Tyranids eating everything.

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

I think that's C. S. Goto's Dawn of War books.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Necrons just strained my suspension of disbelief as I still cannot fathom a reasonable explanation why the Necrons would give two hoots what happens to some Blood Angels

It's not so much that the Necrons care about the Blood Angels than they care about the Tyranids eating everything.

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

I think that's C. S. Goto's Dawn of War books.

Ah have I got that wrong? If so I shall withdraw my hate of the Ciaphas Cain books! Mistreated all these years

As for the Necrons and Tyranids, I could really do with some help with suspending my disbelief. I put myself into the shoes of an undead space robot and for the life of me I can't think why I would give a flying monkeys what happens to the squishy organics in the rest of the galaxy.

If the Tyranids wipe all organic life from this galaxy, my average day as an undead space robot doesn't change in the slightest. Except for the fact that those pesky eldar aren't around to try and blow me up.

I can buy the motivations of every other faction in the entire 40k universe, but I just cannot get on board with Newcrons.

Now, if there was something in the Necron fluff about them needing to harvest organics to power their tomb-worlds or something, I could buy them fighting the Tyranids as they're trying to mess with their livestock. But 'protecting the natural beauty of the galaxy' or whatever reason it is that they don't want the Tyranids to eat everything seems like a terrible attempt at trying to make Necrons into a grey-area faction, when what really should have been emphasised is the tragedy of their situation.

If there was something in the Necron fluff about the fact that they cannot make any new Necrons (as presumably they needed Necrontyr to biotransfer), so their only hope for survival is to scour the universe for any remaining possibility of resurrecting their race, I could buy them fighting the Tyranids, as if they eat everything that's their final hope gone.

But no. They went for 'egyptian space-gardeners'.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
...Oh, and if anyone brings up the argument 'they're not stupid, if there's a greater threat they would totally team up' that's b*llocks based on real-world interactions...

It isn't the stupidest argument in the world, but it tends to get treated as such. When presented with a greater immediate threat various factions in the game may, or have, or do 'team up', but 'team up' tends to mean 'not shoot each other over the short term', not 'offer trust, share command structure, have tea, and discover the other side is actually pretty cool'. See the Winter Assault campaign (featuring short-term teeth-clenched cooperation between a Chaos Lord and an Ork Warboss facing off against an equally-strained team-up between a Farseer and a Guard General, both of which end in betrayal so one faction can grab the final objective) for a good illustration of what 'teaming up against a common threat' actually looks like in the 40k setting.

Very good points I just feel like the whole 'Grand Alliance' direction would be a mistake if they lump the Eldar in with the IoM against Chaos/Orks/Nids whatever. It makes the eldar feel too much like the 'good' guys, rather than the xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal aliens they actually are

I must play Winter Assault now that you've mentioned that as that sounds like exactly what I was imagining. Not 'welcoming the xenocidal Templars into the webway to forge a new alliance of man and elfeldar'

I'll reserve judgement until the book comes out. so much potential to get it absolutely right, but so much risk of making it terrible...

There are no 'good guys'. Everyone in this setting is a xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal alien. Except the IoM/Chaos, they're xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal humans.

Alternately everyone's the 'good guys'. The Tyranids are just hungry. The Eldar are throwing barely-sentient animals to the wolves in a desperate attempt to keep themselves alive. The forces of Chaos are rebelling against an oppressive tyrant in an effort to expose the truth of the galaxy.

That's one of the great strengths of the setting. Everyone has a reasonably well-structured moral framework in which they're the 'good guys' forced to horrible extremes by circumstances and their terrifyingly evil foes, and it sort of works if you try and put yourself in their shoes.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

Caithas Cain is the one with the best character in 40k. Hands down not up for debate. He's even better than Creed.

Hi, I'm old.

As a result, I've been kicking around since Rogue Trader, and while I'm no expert, I do remember a lot of things. Like:

Epic Space Marine - Eldar and Imperial forces fight Chaos renegades together. The Eldar clarify they do not fight for the Emperor, only against Horus.

2nd edition 40k - The Ork "Blood Axe" clan frequently hires themselves out as mercenaries to the Imperial Guard, and consequently can take looted Imperial vehicles.

4th edition (I think) - Kroot stand alone codex, allows Imperial Guard armies to take Kroot mercenaries.

3rd edition - Gav Thorpe's 3rd ed Eldar codex specifically attempts to make the Eldar more arrogant and cruel, and up to that point they had been depicted allying with the Imperium too often, and he was afraid they were being perceived as "good guys." He also commits the unspeakable crime of coining the term "mon-keigh."

Titan (the comic book) Vivaporius - A Warlord titan and an assembly of Eldar titans team up to fight the Tyranid. In particular, a Tyranid infested Warlord titan which is under the control of the Hive mind, making a good argument for Tyranid being allowed to take Imperial Knight allies.

5th Edition - Blood Angels team up with Necrons

Shield of Ba'al - Blood angels keep teaming up with Necrons.


It goes on and on like this, with countless small fluff examples over the years, especially with Inquisitors working with just about anyone. The foundation all of this sits upon, is that the Imperium, and especially it's more conservative, intolerant elements, really are entirely anti-Xeno. (And everything we see, says they are justified in this position) Within the Imperium, however, are countless parties with varying levels of desperation. And, often, the enemy of my enemy, is my temporary ally.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


There are no 'good guys'. Everyone in this setting is a xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal alien. Except the IoM/Chaos, they're xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal humans.

Alternately everyone's the 'good guys'. The Tyranids are just hungry. The Eldar are throwing barely-sentient animals to the wolves in a desperate attempt to keep themselves alive. The forces of Chaos are rebelling against an oppressive tyrant in an effort to expose the truth of the galaxy.

That's one of the great strengths of the setting. Everyone has a reasonably well-structured moral framework in which they're the 'good guys' forced to horrible extremes by circumstances and their terrifyingly evil foes, and it sort of works if you try and put yourself in their shoes.

Yeah that's something that I treasure in the 40k universe as something that's unique among any IP I've come across before (alongside the scope for your own creativity to become a part of the universe itself).

Every single faction is nuanced way beyond the usual convention of good and evil (even if it is done hamfistedly like the Newcrons).

Oggthrok wrote:
Hi, I'm old.

As a result, I've been kicking around since Rogue Trader, and while I'm no expert, I do remember a lot of things. Like:

Epic Space Marine - Eldar and Imperial forces fight Chaos renegades together. The Eldar clarify they do not fight for the Emperor, only against Horus.

2nd edition 40k - The Ork "Blood Axe" clan frequently hires themselves out as mercenaries to the Imperial Guard, and consequently can take looted Imperial vehicles.

4th edition (I think) - Kroot stand alone codex, allows Imperial Guard armies to take Kroot mercenaries.

3rd edition - Gav Thorpe's 3rd ed Eldar codex specifically attempts to make the Eldar more arrogant and cruel, and up to that point they had been depicted allying with the Imperium too often, and he was afraid they were being perceived as "good guys." He also commits the unspeakable crime of coining the term "mon-keigh."

Titan (the comic book) Vivaporius - A Warlord titan and an assembly of Eldar titans team up to fight the Tyranid. In particular, a Tyranid infested Warlord titan which is under the control of the Hive mind, making a good argument for Tyranid being allowed to take Imperial Knight allies.

5th Edition - Blood Angels team up with Necrons

Shield of Ba'al - Blood angels keep teaming up with Necrons.

It goes on and on like this, with countless small fluff examples over the years, especially with Inquisitors working with just about anyone. The foundation all of this sits upon, is that the Imperium, and especially it's more conservative, intolerant elements, really are entirely anti-Xeno. (And everything we see, says they are justified in this position) Within the Imperium, however, are countless parties with varying levels of desperation. And, often, the enemy of my enemy, is my temporary ally.

Yeah it's exactly Gav Thorpe's concerns that I echo. So many people think of eldar as 'prissy good-guy space elves', in part I think because of the sheer number of times they've been used as Deus Ex Machina devices to save the protagonists of an Imperial novel.

At best, it's a lazy plot-device that's been overused at this point. At worst it's severely misrepresentative of what the Eldar of 40k are supposed to be.

Perhaps I just love Gav Thorpe's vision for the Eldar, and the further we go from that the less I like it. It's almost definitely a personal preference, but I can't help but feel that the further the fluff strays from that vision the less unique the Eldar become as a concept, and the more they become 'LoTR elves...in spaaace'.

I have built quite the soap-box about this, so do tell me if I'm prattling on

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

Caithas Cain is the one with the best character in 40k. Hands down not up for debate. He's even better than Creed.

Indeed he is. Its also much darker than people seem to think - yeah his Schola come across like British private school - but they practise live firing and torture on prisoners its just the grim dark stuff is a little more subtly brought into the story.

The referenced Cain book "The Greater Good" has Imperial forces co-operating reluctantly but effectively with the Tau. Yet even Cain feels physically ill about having to deal with a human in service to the Tau (even a very pretty female one!).

The Imperium has always worked with Xenos races - almost always short term.

This ranges from full blown Ambassadors, Inquisition contacts and alliances to fleets fighting together in the Gothic Sector - but the latter seldom last long.

The Eldar also have the following view (going all the way back to Adeptus Titanicus) "Mon Keigh, understand that we do not fight with you, we fight against Horus" (or similar) The Eldar are a imperious, dangerous predatory race.

A good example of how the Imperium would like it to work comes from the very first Cain novel:

Win Win from the Imperial perspective.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

If there was something in the Necron fluff about the fact that they cannot make any new Necrons (as presumably they needed Necrontyr to biotransfer), so their only hope for survival is to scour the universe for any remaining possibility of resurrecting their race, I could buy them fighting the Tyranids, as if they eat everything that's their final hope gone.

That's kinda close to how it is. The Necrons want to return to their living forms because they lost their "soul" by taking mechanical shells. Rather than having just gained immortality they lost something vital; something they missed with their science. To return to organic bodies they need living beings to test on.

I'm sort of hoping that it's revealed that humans are descended from eldar. I like the imperium and I like eldar.

NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm sort of hoping that it's revealed that humans are descended from eldar. I like the imperium and I like eldar.

My preferred explanation for the common appearance is that's what the Old Ones looked like, and the humans were another of their experiments.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm sort of hoping that it's revealed that humans are descended from eldar. I like the imperium and I like eldar.

My preferred explanation for the common appearance is that's what the Old Ones looked like, and the humans were another of their experiments.

Then the Imperium would still class them as xenos. They haven't gone astound killing all of the apes have they?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

That's kinda close to how it is. The Necrons want to return to their living forms because they lost their "soul" by taking mechanical shells. Rather than having just gained immortality they lost something vital; something they missed with their science. To return to organic bodies they need living beings to test on.

Yeah it's only a subtle difference that makes the difference.

In the official fluff they want to return to loving bodies because 'it's just nicer being a squishy organic'.

The slight alteration to them being forced to look at doing that to avoid an inexorably slow decline into insignificance and destruction is enough to make it fit nicely with the whole bokeh of the 40k universe

 AnomanderRake wrote:


My preferred explanation for the common appearance is that's what the Old Ones looked like, and the humans were another of their experiments.

Personally, i love that as an explanation. It adds a bucketload of nuance if you think into it.

The Old Ones seemed to prefer a specific bodyshape, based on their known creations (Eldar, Orks, Jokaero etc.). That of a torso, two legs, two arms with hands on the end and a separate head housing the sensory and cognitive organs. From this, we can infer two things:

1. That's probably what the Old Ones looked like in body structure
2. Any race that follows that structure in the 40k universe is likely a creation of, or was meddled with by the Old Ones (due to how staggeringly unlikely it would be for convergent evolution to be that similar on a galactic scale)

Follow this through, amd it's highly likely that the Necrontyr were an Old One experiment.

Changes the whole dynamic between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr. Perhaps the Necrontyr discovered they were being experimented on and didn't like it. Perhaps they were furious that their creators gave them painfully short lives, but the favoured children (the Eldar) could live for well over 1000 years.

It changes the War in Heaven from a petty, warlike race biting off more than they can chew into a Faustian struggle of sentient beings used as lab-rats rebelling against their neglectful and cruel experimentors.

I think that's why i dislike Newcrons so much. Such a phenomenal amount of potential, glossed over in favour of petty squabbling space-egyptians...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Yeah it's exactly Gav Thorpe's concerns that I echo. So many people think of eldar as 'prissy good-guy space elves', in part I think because of the sheer number of times they've been used as Deus Ex Machina devices to save the protagonists of an Imperial novel.

I still like the fluff in the Rogue Trader Compendium best - they were sad, knew they were losing, and were almost without hope. It wasn't that they were arrogant, as much as suffering from species-wide depression as their numbers thinned out.

But, that was a long, long time ago, and personally I'm happy with the Eldar siding with the Imperium when it suits them, and for big team-ups-at-the-end-time type things. What I never understood was why everyone seems to think Eldar and Dark Eldar are such great friends, even the official GW fluff-writers. That's like the Imperium and Chaos being close pals - they're diametrically opposed. One of them ekes out survival due to the sins their race committed in the past, and the other is a preserved window into just what that past looked like. They should hate each other entirely...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I have built quite the soap-box about this, so do tell me if I'm prattling on

Me too, actually... Anyway, I'm loving the plot progression in 40k. And, as someone who already played in the 13th Black Crusade the first time around, I know if what they make now doesn't work, there's always another Retcon, just over the horizon.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I think that's why i dislike Newcrons so much. Such a phenomenal amount of potential, glossed over in favour of petty squabbling space-egyptians...

Wait, what space Egyptians?

So sort of like the Krogan from Mass Effect, but more lethargy rather than 'raging against the dying of the light'?

Yeah that's cool too

While i don't agree that the craftworlders and commorrites are diametrically opposed to one another, i do agree that they should never be 'best buds'.

At best it should be a fraught, tense alliance of necessity against the non-eldar of the universe (the eldar are supremacists above all else). They should never truly trust each other, and looking over their shoulder for signs of betrayal at all times


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I think that's why i dislike Newcrons so much. Such a phenomenal amount of potential, glossed over in favour of petty squabbling space-egyptians...

Wait, what space Egyptians?

Exactly! The vacancy of 'Undead Space Egyptians' was already well and truly taken.

Give me back my undead space aztec terminators flaying the living to sacrifice to their predatory star-gods please

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yeah it's only a subtle difference that makes the difference.

In the official fluff they want to return to loving bodies because 'it's just nicer being a squishy organic'.

The slight alteration to them being forced to look at doing that to avoid an inexorably slow decline into insignificance and destruction is enough to make it fit nicely with the whole bokeh of the 40k universe

I'm okay with it. They sold their soul for immortality never even thinking of the cost. Those who refused were forced into metal bodies and had their minds stripped from them. In their desperate attempt to win the war and gain immortality they destroyed almost the entirety of their species. How many still can think? How many Necrontyr retained their minds and sanity? One in a thousand? One in ten thousand? A million? Those that retained intelligence are still bound by the Silent King's last command to try to reestablish their empire. Slaved to that overriding directive. And they lost their souls. A vital part of them which they discarded and now are desperate to claw back somehow, if it's even possible.

Come to think of it, take out like a thousand leader Necrons and the species (if you can still call it that) would be all but wiped out.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yeah it's only a subtle difference that makes the difference.

In the official fluff they want to return to loving bodies because 'it's just nicer being a squishy organic'.

The slight alteration to them being forced to look at doing that to avoid an inexorably slow decline into insignificance and destruction is enough to make it fit nicely with the whole bokeh of the 40k universe

I'm okay with it. They sold their soul for immortality never even thinking of the cost. Those who refused were forced into metal bodies and had their minds stripped from them. In their desperate attempt to win the war and gain immortality they destroyed almost the entirety of their species. How many still can think? How many Necrontyr retained their minds and sanity? One in a thousand? One in ten thousand? A million? Those that retained intelligence are still bound by the Silent King's last command to try to reestablish their empire. Slaved to that overriding directive. And they lost their souls. A vital part of them which they discarded and now are desperate to claw back somehow, if it's even possible.

Come to think of it, take out like a thousand leader Necrons and the species (if you can still call it that) would be all but wiped out.

Well that's definitely helped thanks! I like the idea that they're slaved to their last command, rather than just empire-building for the sake of it (which always jarred with my understanding of what it would be like to be an undead space robot waking up in an unfamiliar galaxy). Seems like a much more solid motivation.

I still struggle with the feeling that Newcrons are more 'good guys' than the Imperium. Especially the Silent King chap. The whole point of 40k is that the Imperium is an evil, fascist, genocidal empire...but it's ever-so-slightly better than the other horrible things in the galaxy. Having a 60 million year old undead alien robot feel more like an overarching good guy is detrimental to that narrative of 'humanity vs the horrors of the galaxy'.

Would it not be better if the Silent King found the Tyranids out in the void and thought 'well, that seems like a problem that isn't ours. Good luck fleshy meatbags'. Rather than 'oh gee fido, we'd better run back and warn the fleshy meatbags about what's coming! I'd hate to see them hurt, or our beautiful garden eaten'.

Needs more cruelty and indifference I feel...

Here's hoping you can fix that for me too!

I'm more concerned about Trazyn's latent desire to be the very best like no one ever was.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I still struggle with the feeling that Newcrons are more 'good guys' than the Imperium. Especially the Silent King chap. The whole point of 40k is that the Imperium is an evil, fascist, genocidal empire...but it's ever-so-slightly better than the other horrible things in the galaxy. Having a 60 million year old undead alien robot feel more like an overarching good guy is detrimental to that narrative of 'humanity vs the horrors of the galaxy'.

Would it not be better if the Silent King found the Tyranids out in the void and thought 'well, that seems like a problem that isn't ours. Good luck fleshy meatbags'. Rather than 'oh gee fido, we'd better run back and warn the fleshy meatbags about what's coming! I'd hate to see them hurt, or our beautiful garden eaten'.

The Necrontyr started a war of genocide against the Old Ones for no real reason. The nobility, including the Silent King, then knowingly condemned most of the species to what is possibly a fate worse than death. The vast majority of Necrons were stripped of free will and intelligence whilst only a few retained their intellect. The nobles would have known the common bodies they made were for automatons. Where did the civilians go? What happened to those who wished to retain their living bodies? All cast into the fires of biotransference to essentially die by the Silent King's command. The Silent King agreed with this. It gets worse if Necron Warriors can think or feel but be wholly unable to act or speak. Puppets doing the bidding of their masters. The Necrons seek to dominate the galaxy, remake their empire and enslave or exterminate those who resist. The living would be test subjects for an attempt at biotransference. And the Silent King is fine with this. He'd tear humanity and all the other sapient species' asunder in a heartbeat if it served his interests.

The short story The Word of the Slient King is about the Slient King/Blood Angel team up on Gehenna.

Yeah that does help. Perhaps I need to re-read the Newcron fluff. Problem is that as soon as I start reading about Nemesor Zandrehk (or old-man-Creed as I like to call him) I burst a blood vessel...

I love the whole 'the nobility knew what they were doing' aspect of things. I've got a half-written fluff piece about a Cryptek that plays on that slightly:



I do think that the fluff for the Silent King should be a bit more sinister though. Everything you've said above is true, but doesn't come off properly from reading the fluff to him.

The last thing I struggle with about that is why the Necrontyr started trying to wipe out the Old Ones. The motivations given in the Newcrons codex seem pretty weak, if I'm brutally honest. 'We've got a civil war going on, so lets pick on the biggest nastiest people in the galaxy to unite against them!'. Seems petty and ill-thought-out (from the Silent King's perspective).

The little bit of headcanon above about Necrontyr being spurned experiments of the Old Ones fixes that

Anyway, this has gone waaaay of topic hasn't it :S

In answer to the OP: yes, if it ends up as a Grand Alliance. No, if they end up betraying each other post-haste

I'm fine with it. Blind faction hatred is fine for justifying in game conflicts I suppose, but really doesn't make for an interesting world. Allies are way more interesting and its not like we don't have justify mirror matches anyway.

This poll is stupid!

Ouroboros0977 wrote:
I'm more concerned about Trazyn's latent desire to be the very best like no one ever was.

Honestly it's all fine until he can use his silly Pokémon powers on the tabletop.

Also, I don't like the Silent King fluff either. It's bland and kind of goes against the whole "unknown monsters" vibe Necrons have going. Then again newcrons sort of killed most of that vibe as a whole.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

Ouroboros0977 wrote:
I'm more concerned about Trazyn's latent desire to be the very best like no one ever was.

Honestly it's all fine until he can use his silly Pokémon powers on the tabletop.

Also, I don't like the Silent King fluff either. It's bland and kind of goes against the whole "unknown monsters" vibe Necrons have going. Then again newcrons sort of killed most of that vibe as a whole.

Yeah it's the 'unknown terrors of prehistory' thing that I miss with the Necrons. I loved the fact that we knew so little about them, beyond what was easily observable and what little made it through to Eldar myths. Perfect unknowable terror.

Now, we know so much about them there's no mystery left.

I'm a big proponent that information in 40k should be drip-fed, through little quotes and excerpts in codices (preferably from outside observers). Little hints are just so much more tantalising than big excerpts telling us exactly how things are (especially if what they are is Space Tomb Kings)...

 chromedog wrote:

"Make no mistake, human. We do not fight with you, we fight AGAINST Chaos."

The actual quote "Make no mistake, human. We do not fight with you, we fight AGAINST Horus."

All their doing is pulling a Horus and saving their own skins. That way leads to damnation.
But its a sign of the times really.
Everyone love one another right now. Its cringe worthy and utterly despicable.

I don't mind knowing stuff about the necrons. There was a quote from some lord or overlord where a human is praying to the god emperor or something and the necron says something along the lines of "Your god cannot save you, we killed ours."


Knowing about the C'tan and all that hasn't actually changed the necrons. For the most part to every member of the imperium they are still unknown horrible undead machines from ancient pre history. Very few of them have any motives that have them behave any different then they did before.

Yes I do. As a member of the Deathwatch it is my duty to hate and mistrust the xenos.

In all seriousness though yes. I loved the hate and conflict of the fight between IoM and xenos. It's why I got into xenos races in the first place the but hurt when the IoM fans see they got a loss int he fluff is hilarious. Especially the Tau's attemps at diplomacy which were rebuked so hard and now the IoM probably going to come crawling back.

It also makes the fight more entertaining from a narrative perspective. Now the Deathwatch make a lot less sense. Also I have a feeling in universe the Tau are a lot less willing to accept a truce deal with the IoM after the whole burning damocles in a burning hell proto warp storm chaos inferno.

Edit
I voted no by accident dang it.

 Lance845 wrote:
I don't mind knowing stuff about the necrons. There was a quote from some lord or overlord where a human is praying to the god emperor or something and the necron says something along the lines of "Your god cannot save you, we killed ours."


Knowing about the C'tan and all that hasn't actually changed the necrons. For the most part to every member of the imperium they are still unknown horrible undead machines from ancient pre history. Very few of them have any motives that have them behave any different then they did before.

Yeah that's sort of what I was trying to get at. It feels a lot cooler to learn about the Necrons form little quips and quotes like this. By all means expand a little beyond 'Your god cannot save you now, we killed ours', but keep the mystery. Not quite sure how far I'd pitch it towards the mystery side of things though, as a healthy background is good.

I'd probably stop short of telling people that the Necrons have teleporting police officers (Triarch Praetorians)...

Complete personal preference of course

the Imperium FREQUENTLY works with xenos to kick the crap out of 'Nids and Chaos specifically. this is literally nothing new.

I am not familiar with this new fluff, but if they are working with various Xeno then why have the Orks been left out? why not just throw them all in there? Or are they telling us that the Orks are so hated that even in this desperate hour they will not stoop so low? Or were the Orks just not involved in this fight at all.

Either way as an Ork fanatic I feel saddened that the Orkies have been left out

Meh.
As long as they do the humane thing and backstab them just before they actually win I don't mind an alliance with the Eldar, I can even tollerate the Orks...I'll turn my Wolves to Chaos before I tolerate an alliance with the Tau though.

Having played a doubles event recently where the random draw paired a Deathwatch army with Harlequins in round 1 and with genestealers in round 2, nothing surprises me any more. (It's ironic that the pairings cover both of the boxed sets that featured the DW and an alien race) Seriously, some of the new fluff is getting pretty stupid, so I ignore it. Not only are the armies unbound, but so are the authors!

We'll see where this goes. I have the feeling the particular alliance will run into problems in future stories. I keep thinking about D.O.O.P. from Futurama when I see the unbound alliances on the table. If all of the Xenos races end up sitting around singing "Kumbaya" with the Imperium, does that mean that the Deathwatch is about to get squatted? I already refer to the Deathwatch captain in Kirk's army as "Zapp" I'm sure if Futurama was real, and 40k was also real, Zapp Brannigan would be in charge of Deathwatch. (Not sure where that would leave Kif)

That's all of the slightly humorous thoughts I can muster on the topic right now.

Why do people have to be so ideological?

Can't they be practical and utilitarian too? Results come first.

I like the fluff when it's fluid and nuanced rather than rigid and one dimensional. People can work with mortal enemies if there's some greater threat on the horizon, and it's in both their interests to stop the said threat - so yeah, I don't mind these temporary alliances. It's not like it's happy funtime friends all of a sudden, they'll be back to killing one another soon enough.

 BBAP wrote:




I like the fluff when it's fluid and nuanced rather than rigid and one dimensional. People can work with mortal enemies if there's some greater threat on the horizon, and it's in both their interests to stop the said threat - so yeah, I don't mind these temporary alliances. It's not like it's happy funtime friends all of a sudden, they'll be back to killing one another soon enough.

exactly my point PPAP