What is the best counter to a deathstar that you have available in your army?

Personally I play daemons amd my preferred answer is a tzeentch prince with his invulnerable save upped to 2++, with the inherent ability to reroll 1s he can tank and therefor tie up most things.

Your Daemon Prince hence become the possibly best "one model deathstar" at that point

I think it depends on what type of DeathStar you are facing, general speaking, tie up the shooty or shoot the choppy. Other than that, MSU is always good answer to DeathStar. Out score them.

It all depends on the deathstar, as mentioned above.

What codex is it from, how many sources, how many points make up the deathstar, is it melee or shooting, how many ICs, any formations? etc

Short of the lack of hit and run, a grim herald and 5-6 screamers is extremely hard to kill for the points and works as a decent road block. Even if the enemy hits and run you can keep using your screamers as a buffer. Or - use pink horrors as a road blocks for cheaper.

I usually either shoot it or try to tarpit it. It does depend on the star though.

* Culexus Assassin
* Sisters of Silence
* going first (Coteaz et al)
* getting lucky if they somehow fail to get off a critical Psychic Power
* Cerastus Knight-Castigator's Tempest Blade
* A sane tournament format, such as limiting to 2 or 3 detachments or 2 factions

+1 on Culexus

Tau: Combined Fire & Advanced Targeting Systems to help remove supporting characters. Combined fire I feel was built to help mitigate some death stars.

Space Marines: Counter with Iron Hands Death Star or try to out score, but since I don't have enough models for a full Gladius I don't know really.

Demons: Not entirely sure. Maybe Magnus could help but a 2++ rerollable demon prince sounds helpful. That and the screamerstar.

Grey Knights/Tyranids: I feel out of luck here. MC's will just get smacked with AP2 stuff with most likely a higher weapon skill or re-rolls to hit & weight of dice. Tarpitting also seems out of the question as H&R exists and 6+ armor doesn't do much defensively. Maybe a Knight Titan could help?

Cult Ambush, Telepathic Summons, and Mass Hypnosis. A WS1 I1 A1 deathstar is no deathstar at all.

I have had the displeasure of running a houndstar in to a Calexus - it's horrible.

How bad are the Sisters to come up against?
How effective see the to use?

Usually I run Space Wolves, my best defence against Deathstars is Seize the Initiative, I can get that on a 2+.
Combined with a solid first turn I can usually do more damage than the star can handle before the Libbies get their turn.
Doesn't work on Drop Pod stars though, at all.

10 gretchin, runtherder, squighound, grabba stikk.

~45ish points. 11 wounds, -1 a, ld rerolls. What are most deathstars, 500 points? I could take 11.

121 wounds, -11 a, reroll morale checks, obsec. lol

One thing I'll be testing out soon - once I get the Fall of Cadia book - is using a Stormsword as part of the Castellans detachment.

It's mostly to combat armies like Ravenwing, White Scars, and Eldar Jetbikes, which I sometimes see, along with hordes. Oddly, people rarely bring Deathstars as such to casual games around here.

But I feel the Stormsword would be somewhat effective against any Deathstar that doesn't have Invisibility or majority T6. Even if they have lots of good Invulnerable saves, they likely won't save every wound, and the star will start to break up.

Of course, this isn't applicable in an ITC event, since the Stormsword isn't there.

Kill everything except the death star.

Literally the counter to every death star. Also well placed missiles at their cores.

Deathstars are usually close combat units. Just force them to assault expendable cheap units or empty transports.

I usually play armies with low T or armor saves (orks and dark eldar) so I don't have a real hard counter for deathstars, but MSU is my typical style of playing so I'm not really scared about them.

The corpsethief claw is nice as a semi-deathstar because it scores 1 point everytime it destroys an enemy unit in close combat, so you can force it to assault and expendable squad but the dark eldar player would score a point anyway, two in case of a KP mission.

 Blackie wrote:
Deathstars are usually close combat units. Just force them to assault expendable cheap units or empty transports.

I usually play armies with low T or armor saves (orks and dark eldar) so I don't have a real hard counter for deathstars, but MSU is my typical style of playing so I'm not really scared about them.

The corpsethief claw is nice as a semi-deathstar because it scores 1 point everytime it destroys an enemy unit in close combat, so you can force it to assault and expendable squad but the dark eldar player would score a point anyway, two in case of a KP mission.

You remind me of an AM player in my meta.
He loses bad to other shootie armies but every melee player cringes when they see his name next to theirs - me included.

D-weapons. I play Eldar, I can kill anything.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
D-weapons. I play Eldar, I can kill anything.

Oh, good for you. You kill a dog/hound/space marine... and that's only if they're not invisible.

Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

 Corvus_corax wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
D-weapons. I play Eldar, I can kill anything.

Oh, good for you. You kill a dog/hound/space marine... and that's only if they're not invisible.

And they kill nothing of mine. Huzzah.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

that's not quite how Celestine works Her guards don't look out sir they just take a wound every time she suffers one. So a wound is always suffered by Celestine they just allocate other guard. Whereas look out sir means the guardian would suffer the wound.

gungo wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

that's not quite how Celestine works Her guards don't look out sir they just take a wound every time she suffers one. So a wound is always suffered by Celestine they just allocate other guard. Whereas look out sir means the guardian would suffer the wound.

Divine Guardian says any wound suffered by Celestine is resolved against surviving Geminae instead. Might be palming off rather than meat shielding but I'm struggling to see a difference.

If celestine gets hit by a 6 on the D-table she takes 6+D6 wounds. If I was to roll a 3 for the D6 then celestine and the 2 boddyguard would be dead.

 rawne2510 wrote:
If celestine gets hit by a 6 on the D-table she takes 6+D6 wounds. If I was to roll a 3 for the D6 then celestine and the 2 boddyguard would be dead.

Incorrect. If a D weapon hit causes 9 wounds and two Geminae are alive ALL 9 wounds are resolved against the one Geminae that is closest to Celestine.



That's because the single model suffers the wounds, not the unit. So the one Geminae model gets hit with ALL 9 wounds.

For a single model to take all the wounds you would have to look out sir to the Geminae. The divine guardian rule is not an auto LoS.

 rawne2510 wrote:
For a single model to take all the wounds you would have to look out sir to the Geminae. The divine guardian rule is not an auto LoS.

Awfully clunky way to say the Geminae have a 4++ save and confer a 4++ to St Celestine while at least one lives.

The point i was making is that a lot of people seem to believe that Divine Guardian is an automatic LoS which it isn´t. If celestine was to fail a LoS from a deathblow she would be suffering all the 6+D6 wounds and then passing them on to her Geminae.

Invun saves mean squat to deathblow.

 rawne2510 wrote:
For a single model to take all the wounds you would have to look out sir to the Geminae. The divine guardian rule is not an auto LoS.

I never said anything about Look Out Sir. You are not correctly resolving Destroyer Weapon hits.

Destroyer Weapons Attack Rolls do not generate wound pools. Each Destroyer Weapon Attack Roll is "instead of 1 [wound]". Celestine's rule passes off the entirety of the result of Destroyer Weapon Attack Roll to the closest Geminae.

no it doesn´t. the destroyer result isn´t a wound. You can´t just pass it on. you pass on the number of wounds created from the result not the result itself. Otherwise The ID effect of the hit would kill a germinae in 1 go from the 2-5 results which it doesn´t.

 rawne2510 wrote:
no it doesn´t. the destroyer result isn´t a wound. You can´t just pass it on. you pass on the number of wounds created from the result not the result itself. Otherwise The ID effect of the hit would kill a germinae in 1 go from the 2-5 results which it doesn´t.

You aren't resolving Destroyer Attacks correctly. There is no wound pool generated by the Destroyer Weapon hit. The entirety of the Destroyer Weapon Attack Roll is "instead of 1 wound".

Also, Destroyer Attacks are handled as str 10 so a result of 2-5 will pass of the result of that roll and ID a Geminae

Celestine doesn't roll for LOS, her rules say that her bodyguards take her wounds automatically.

No because the wound is resolved against Celestine who if she was to fail any available saves would pass on the number of wounds she would have to take to her Geminae. Only wounds taken not strength or AP unless you were to LoS the wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Celestine doesn't roll for LOS, her rules say that her bodyguards take her wounds automatically.

The wounds she suffers after failing her save. Not before saves because that would require a LoS.

 rawne2510 wrote:
No because the wound is resolved against Celestine who if she was to fail any available saves would pass on the number of wounds she would have to take to her Geminae. Only wounds taken not strength or AP unless you were to LoS the wound.

In your own response you are juxtaposing wound (ie the Destroyer Attack roll) with wounds (the result of the Destroyer Attack roll) which underscores your continued confusion!

Destroyer Weapon Attacks are not resolved like normal attacks. Until you follow the Destroyer Weapon rules your line of reasoning is incorrect.

Otherwise you are arguing that a model gets as many inv saves against a D attack as the number of wounds that replace the 1 wound. Don't mix Destroyer Attack resolution with normal attack resolution. D attacks have their own special rules and replace the normal rules.

D weapon hits Celestine. Can't pass that off because it's not a wound.

Roll a 6 on the D table - 6+d6 wounds. Roll another 6 - the attack inflicts 12 wounds on Celestine.

Celestine has suffered wounds, so now the Divine Guardian rule kicks in. It says this:

"whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

Celestine has suffered 12 wounds; all 12 are resolved simultaneously, so all 12 would be passable to the nearest Geminae Superia, who would die. Then come back again next turn.

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
no it doesn´t. the destroyer result isn´t a wound. You can´t just pass it on. you pass on the number of wounds created from the result not the result itself. Otherwise The ID effect of the hit would kill a germinae in 1 go from the 2-5 results which it doesn´t.

You aren't resolving Destroyer Attacks correctly. There is no wound pool generated by the Destroyer Weapon hit. The entirety of the Destroyer Weapon Attack Roll is "instead of 1 wound".

Also, Destroyer Attacks are handled as str 10 so a result of 2-5 will pass of the result of that roll and ID a Geminae

I´m not reolving destroyer weapons incorrectly. We are deciding that you roll for the number of wounds taken instead of 1 at different times. I am saying that you have to resolve the whole of the effect of the Destroyer table on celestine before her divine guardian rule takes effect. You are saying the result of the destroyer roll is passed to the geminae before you determine how many wounds are calculated. The result says that the model suffers 6+D6 wounds instead of 1. The geminae can´t take the wounds at any point before this happens so at this point celestine is suffering at least 7 wounds from Deathblow not 1 wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:
D weapon hits Celestine. Can't pass that off because it's not a wound.

Roll a 6 on the D table - 6+d6 wounds. Roll another 6 - the attack inflicts 12 wounds on Celestine.

Celestine has suffered wounds, so now the Divine Guardian rule kicks in. It says this:

"whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

Celestine has suffered 12 wounds; all 12 are resolved simultaneously, so all 12 would be passable to the nearest Geminae Superia, who would die. Then come back again next turn.

Up until you said that all 12 wounds would pass on to 1 model I agreed with you. If I hit celestine with 15 Grav shots and she fails 8 wounds. You are saying all 8 wounds would only go on 1 geminae???

 BBAP wrote:
D weapon hits Celestine. Can't pass that off because it's not a wound.

Roll a 6 on the D table - 6+d6 wounds. Roll another 6 - the attack inflicts 12 wounds on Celestine.

Celestine has suffered wounds, so now the Divine Guardian rule kicks in. It says this:

"whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

Celestine has suffered 12 wounds; all 12 are resolved simultaneously, so all 12 would be passable to the nearest Geminae Superia, who would die. Then come back again next turn.

Destroyer weapons replace normal wound resolution.

Adjust your answer.

That would be like saying all my LoS rolls from my Captain on 4 Las cannon wounds will go against just 1 marine.

You can't bypass a model's special rules by pretending that the roll on the D weapon table replaces wounding or whatever. it replaces the normal attacks equence, but it still inflicts wounds. You just roll on the D table to see how many wounds the attack inflicts. The attack then inflicts wounds. These wounds can be palmed off to a Geminae Superia as per the Divine Guardian rule, and because they're all resolved simultaneously they're all passed off at the same time.

Even in the case of, for example, Wraithguard with D-Scythes whose templates hit all three of the models in Celestine's little squad, all of Celestine's wounds would necessarily be resolved against the Geminae Superia closest to her because all of them occur simultaneously, so the Geminae don't die before the Divine Guardian rule has had time to take effect.

At no point on the destroyer table do you take just 1 wound from failing a save.

It is either D3 or 6+D6

col_impact wrote:
Destroyer weapons replace normal wound resolution.

They modify the attack sequence slightly but still inflict wounds. No adjustment is needed.

 BBAP wrote:
You can't bypass a model's special rules by pretending that the roll on the D weapon table replaces wounding or whatever. it replaces the normal attacks equence, but it still inflicts wounds. You just roll on the D table to see how many wounds the attack inflicts. The attack then inflicts wounds. These wounds can be palmed off to a Geminae Superia as per the Divine Guardian rule, and because they're all resolved simultaneously they're all passed off at the same time.

Even in the case of, for example, Wraithguard with D-Scythes whose templates hit all three of the models in Celestine's little squad, all of Celestine's wounds would necessarily be resolved against the Geminae Superia closest to her because all of them occur simultaneously, so the Geminae don't die before the Divine Guardian rule has had time to take effect.

I´m sorry but your interpretation of how divine guardian works breaks look out sir rules. a 2 wound model can only take 2 wounds from the number failed by celestine not all 12 or all 50 lasgun wounds.

 rawne2510 wrote:
At no point on the destroyer table do you take just 1 wound from failing a save.

It is either D3 or 6+D6

You still take wounds. Wounds that Celestine suffers are passed off via Divine Guardian to Geminae Superia. Wether you suffer D3 or 6+d6 or 1 is irrelevant; any wounds Celestine suffers are resolved against the closest geminae Superia to her while at least one of them is alive.

wounds still allocate across 1 at a time till a model dies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
At no point on the destroyer table do you take just 1 wound from failing a save.

It is either D3 or 6+D6

You still take wounds. Wounds that Celestine suffers are passed off via Divine Guardian to Geminae Superia. Wether you suffer D3 or 6+d6 or 1 is irrelevant; any wounds Celestine suffers are resolved against the closest geminae Superia to her while at least one of them is alive.

Yes but not every wound in the pool.

 rawne2510 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
no it doesn´t. the destroyer result isn´t a wound. You can´t just pass it on. you pass on the number of wounds created from the result not the result itself. Otherwise The ID effect of the hit would kill a germinae in 1 go from the 2-5 results which it doesn´t.

You aren't resolving Destroyer Attacks correctly. There is no wound pool generated by the Destroyer Weapon hit. The entirety of the Destroyer Weapon Attack Roll is "instead of 1 wound".

Also, Destroyer Attacks are handled as str 10 so a result of 2-5 will pass of the result of that roll and ID a Geminae

I´m not reolving destroyer weapons incorrectly. We are deciding that you roll for the number of wounds taken instead of 1 at different times. I am saying that you have to resolve the whole of the effect of the Destroyer table on celestine before her divine guardian rule takes effect. You are saying the result of the destroyer roll is passed to the geminae before you determine how many wounds are calculated. The result says that the model suffers 6+D6 wounds instead of 1. The geminae can´t take the wounds at any point before this happens so at this point celestine is suffering at least 7 wounds from Deathblow not 1 wound.

You need to adhere to the Destroyer Weapon rules which replace normal wound resolution. Or are you advocating that every wound caused by a single Destroyer hit can be look out sir'ed and saved separately?

 rawne2510 wrote:
I´m sorry but your interpretation of how divine guardian works breaks look out sir rules. a 2 wound model can only take 2 wounds from the number failed by celestine not all 12 or all 50 lasgun wounds.

You've just said yourself that Divine Guardian and LoS don't interact in any way. The existence of Divine Guardian doesn't preclude people from following the normal sequence for LoS, and only a complete douchebag would try to claim they can break LoS because Celestine has a special snowflake rule that allows her to automatically palm off any wounds she suffers.

Divine Guardian isn't Look Out Sir. It's Divine Guardian. It's entirely seperate and the two have no effect on one another.

scenario:

15 lootas get 45 shots

they get lucky and score 20 hits and 15 wounds

celestine gets unlucky and fails 5 saves.

You are saying all 5 go on to just 1 model no matter what.

Not replace celestine with a Captain in tactical squad where he Look out sirs all the wounds. your logical thought wound mean that all 15 wounds go on just 1 man.

The effect of LOS and divine guardian works in the same way just 1 after saves and 1 before saves


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
I´m sorry but your interpretation of how divine guardian works breaks look out sir rules. a 2 wound model can only take 2 wounds from the number failed by celestine not all 12 or all 50 lasgun wounds.

You've just said yourself that Divine Guardian and LoS don't interact in any way. The existence of Divine Guardian doesn't preclude people from following the normal sequence for LoS, and only a complete douchebag would try to claim they can break LoS because Celestine has a special snowflake rule that allows her to automatically palm off any wounds she suffers.

Divine Guardian isn't Look Out Sir. It's Divine Guardian. It's entirely seperate and the two have no effect on one another.

The way they allocate wounds is the same. You interpretation would be all on to 1 model only

 rawne2510 wrote:
scenario:

15 lootas get 45 shots

they get lucky and score 20 hits and 15 wounds

celestine gets unlucky and fails 5 saves.

You are saying all 5 go on to just 1 model no matter what.

Not replace celestine with a Captain in tactical squad where he Look out sirs all the wounds. your logical thought wound mean that all 15 wounds go on just 1 man.

The effect of LOS and divine guardian works in the same way just 1 after saves and 1 before saves

Destroyer hits work different than normal attacks. Normal attacks generate wound pools. A single Destroyer hits does not generate a wound pool. So Loota wounds can be allocated to multiple models. The wounds caused by a single Destroyer Attack cannot be allocated to more than one model.

 rawne2510 wrote:
The way they allocate wounds is the same.

Not for D weapon attacks it isn't.

You interpretation would be all on to 1 model only

Which is exactly how D weapons work. A single model suffers the wounds and any excess are discarded.

Lootaz are irrelevant, because they create wound pools that must be allocated.

D weapons don't create wound pools. D weapons automatically allocate wounds to a single model which either saves them all or dies trying, with any excess being discarded. All 12 of the wounds are suffered by Celestine, and all 12 can be passed off simultaneously to a single Geminae Superia as per Divine Guardian. The Superia then either makes saves until she fails one or exhausts the wounds, or she dies from the first wound and the rest go in the bin.

EDIT: Two D weapons inflict 6 saveable wounds on Celestine. You pass them all off to the Geminae Superia. You can then roll all the dice concurrently if you like, but it'd be equally valid to just pick up 6 dice and roll them all simultaneously, and remove the model if any throw up a 1, 2 or a 3.

Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae. Otherwise it is a LOS if you want the geminae to make the save is my whole point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae. Otherwise it is a LOS if you want the geminae to make the save is my whole point.

You are failing to replace normal wound resolution with Destroyer Attack resolution.

The Destroyer rules replace the normal rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rawne2510 wrote:

Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

Nope. We are saying Destroyer Attacks have their own rules for resolution. Which they do.

Normal attacks are resolved on a wound-by-wound basis. Destroyer Attacks are resolved on a hit-by-hit basis.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae.

No - it's what ***you're*** getting wrong. Celestine suffers a wound - the wound is resolved against the Geminae Superia, which means the Superia must take the saving throw and then suffer any adverse effects. Wound resolution beings with saving throws. Everything that comes before that is wound allocation. If you've already resolved the wound against Celestine then you're doing it wrong.

Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

Yep, that's about the size of it.

EDIT: If you want to tell me "suffers" means "has failed a save against", explain to me why so many of 40k's effects state that an affected model "suffers a single wound with no saving throws of [x] type allowed"? Why would they need to add that in there if a model only "suffers" a wound after it's failed its save against it?

That is not how I read BBAP statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae. Otherwise it is a LOS if you want the geminae to make the save is my whole point.

You are failing to replace normal wound resolution with Destroyer Attack resolution.

The Destroyer rules replace the normal rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rawne2510 wrote:

Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

Nope. We are saying Destroyer Attacks have their own rules for resolution. Which they do.

Normal attacks are resolved on a wound-by-wound basis. Destroyer Attacks are resolved on a hit-by-hit basis.

I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result suffered by celestine. It is at that point that celestine has now suffered wounds that divine guardian kicks in.

It is the only negative to Divine guardian because celestine must have suffered a wound for it to activate. At no point within the destroyer weapon result does she ever take just 1 wound. This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before. To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

 rawne2510 wrote:


I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result. This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before. To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

Destroyer weapons require the hit to be passed off. Any save or LOS roll is made based on hit and not by wound. No wound pool is generated.

Are you advocating that we need to change how we handle Destroyer weapons and make saves and LOS rolls based on wounds ultimately generated by Destroyer hit and not directly by Destroyer hit? Please let us know because that would change everything.

If celestine suffers a huge amount of unsaved wound she dies, as her bodyguards can only soak some of them. But D weapons work differently, they affect models, not units. If she passes the D result to a gemina, it's her bodyguard that takes the result. And the D6+6 wound only affects a single model, not the entire unit. A huge amount of unsaved wounds would affect the entire unit instead.

And yes celestine doesn't tank wounds to protect their bodyguards.

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:


I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result. This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before. To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

Destroyer weapons require the hit to be passed off. Any save or LOS roll is made based on hit and not by wound. No wound pool is generated.

Are you advocating that we need to change how we handle Destroyer weapons and make saves and LOS rolls based on wounds ultimately generated by Destroyer hit and not directly by Destroyer hit? Please let us know because that would change everything.

No what I am saying is that the wording of Divine Guardian means that a wound is only passed off of celestine when she takes it. So she can choose to LOS the deathblow hit on to a geminae and kill one model or she takes the hit and generates at least 7 wounds that must then be passed off killing both geminae and her taking 3 wounds. Divine guardian does not allow you to pass off the destroyer hit automatically because it isn´t a wound.

Aren't D-Weapons fun?
That's why Bark Star works so well, even the most successful D-roll kills one eight point mutt.

 rawne2510 wrote:


Divine guardian does not allow you to pass off the destroyer hit automatically because it isn´t a wound.

Yes, technically she doesn't pass the hit, se passes the wounds the she suffers. So if she gets to suffer a D6+6 wounds that affect a single model (the possible D result) the closest bodyguard takes it all, as those wounds only affect a single model not the entire unit, and celestine can't take wounds if her bodyguards are still part of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Aren't D-Weapons fun?
That's why Bark Star works so well, even the most successful D-roll kills one eight point mutt.

If D weapons would affect units and not single models no one would play against armies that use them

 rawne2510 wrote:
I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result suffered by celestine. It is at that point that celestine has now suffered wounds that divine guardian kicks in.

Yep - and all the wounds are suffered by Celestine as per the D weapon rules.

It is the only negative to Divine guardian because celestine must have suffered a wound for it to activate.

Celestine "suffers" a wound as soon as a wound is generated against her. She doesn't need to pass or fail a save against it to "suffer" it. You don't partly resolve the wound against Celestine by taking a saving throw for her and then complete the resolution by removing a wound from the Geminae Superia's profile. You resolve the whole wound against the Geminae Superia; she takes the save, then suffers the consequences if she fails it.

At no point within the destroyer weapon result does she ever take just 1 wound.

Exactly. She takes all D3/ 6+d6 wounds simultaneously, and hence can pass them all off to a Geminae Superia.

This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before.

No it doesn't.

To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

That's not what the Divine Guardian rule says, and in order to read it that way you'd have to be resolving Destroyer weapon attacks incorrectly. Under normal circumstances a single Destroyer weapon hit can only ever kill one model no matter how many wounds it generates. Your bass-ackwards interpretation of this rule causes Divine Guardian to become a huge buff for D weapons against Celestine and her Geminae Superia.

Is that what you think the designers intended? It's certainly not what the designers have implemented if you play the rule correctly, but was it their intent, in your view?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rawne2510 wrote:
No what I am saying is that the wording of Divine Guardian means that a wound is only passed off of celestine when she takes it.

But that's not what the wording of Divine Guardian says.

A unit "suffers" a wound on a successful to-wound roll. That's why you have all these psychic powers that say "unit suffers a wound with no saves allowed" and suchforth - the unit suffers wounds, which are then resolved against models within the unit. The resolution stage is when saving throws are made. If you're making a saving throw for Celestine then you're resolving the wound against her, which you can't do as per DG while Geminae Superia are alive. You don't get to use Celestine's 2+ armour save to tank wounds for the 3+ armour save Superia, and nor do you get super-buffed D weapon damage against the Living Saint and her bodyguards.

I accept that if that is how people are playing it.

 rawne2510 wrote:
That is not how I read BBAP statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae. Otherwise it is a LOS if you want the geminae to make the save is my whole point.

You are failing to replace normal wound resolution with Destroyer Attack resolution.

The Destroyer rules replace the normal rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rawne2510 wrote:

Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

Nope. We are saying Destroyer Attacks have their own rules for resolution. Which they do.

Normal attacks are resolved on a wound-by-wound basis. Destroyer Attacks are resolved on a hit-by-hit basis.

I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result suffered by celestine. It is at that point that celestine has now suffered wounds that divine guardian kicks in.

It is the only negative to Divine guardian because celestine must have suffered a wound for it to activate. At no point within the destroyer weapon result does she ever take just 1 wound. This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before. To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

Go read the D table again please so this thread can cease being sidetracked by sheer stubbornness. The wounds go on one model and the excess are discarded. Thus it would pass to one of the guards and if it dies the rest are lost.

Col impact wasn´t which is why I have been arguing it this way from the beginning before you stepped in.

If you are saying whilst any geminae are alive that celestine doesn´t get to make a single save then I am happy with that because she is less of an issue in combat with my daemons now.
She can´t choose to look out sir any shots until they are both dead .

My whole understanding of this process was that nothing passes off until she fails a save or chooses to LOS. You are the first person I have spoken to with regards to divine guardian that requires her to automatically pass wounds off before saves are made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:


Go read the D table again please so this thread can cease being sidetracked by sheer stubbornness. The wounds go on one model and the excess are discarded. Thus it would pass to one of the guards and if it dies the rest are lost.

My understanding of how divine guardian worked meant that all the wounds went on to a single model celestine. divine guardian as it is written then seperates the wounds different to how destroyer weapons work. But we have gone past the point of destroyer weapons and moved on to a new rule so the statement of a destroyewr weapon hits 1 model for x wounds deosn´t matter anymore. In my opinion it was a very big negative to the normal awesome effect of divine guardian.

Alright, I'll try to explain how destroyer weapons work then.
Now first of all ignore this whole it causes multiple wounds stuff, 1 D attack = 1 D attack, alright? They're generally ap 1 or 2 so celestine isn't getting that armour save anyway thus it's passed onto one of the guards. Now here's the tricky part with D weapons, they cause multiple wounds but do not cause muliple wounds at the same time; again 1 D wound is just one wound in the pool. What the destroyer table does which is interesting is basically says "this model here which has suffered 1 D wound, will actually lose more than one wound instead" as in it's still just one wound and one failed or mostly bypassed it just causes the model to lose more wounds for it instead of the 1.

If you're familiar with AoS think of it like multiple damage weapons; it hits once, it counts as one wound in the pool, you get one save, but you lose more than one wound if it gets through.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:


Go read the D table again please so this thread can cease being sidetracked by sheer stubbornness. The wounds go on one model and the excess are discarded. Thus it would pass to one of the guards and if it dies the rest are lost.

My understanding of how divine guardian worked meant that all the wounds went on to a single model celestine. divine guardian as it is written then seperates the wounds different to how destroyer weapons work. But we have gone past the point of destroyer weapons and moved on to a new rule so the statement of a destroyewr weapon hits 1 model for x wounds deosn´t matter anymore. In my opinion it was a very big negative to the normal awesome effect of divine guardian.

And this is correct I think. It's just D weapons don't cause multiple wounds, but rather you lose multiple and any remaining damage after the model dies is lost as they only applied to that model. It's annoyingly tricky until you read the table more closely.

 rawne2510 wrote:
I accept that if that is how people are playing it.

What you accept is neither here nor there - the rules are clear enough.

 rawne2510 wrote:
If you are saying whilst any geminae are alive that celestine doesn´t get to make a single save

That's the rule as written. Ambiguity exists surrounding the term "suffers", but only insofar as there's no technical definition of that term in the game system. The ambiguity clears up when you look at other uses of the term in the rules.

then I am happy with that because she is less of an issue in combat with my daemons now.
She can´t choose to look out sir any shots until they are both dead

... right.

My whole understanding of this process was that nothing passes off until she fails a save or chooses to LOS.

Then your understanding was entirely incorrect and must change to comport with the RAW.

You are the first person I have spoken to with regards to divine guardian that requires her to automatically pass wounds off before saves are made.

The people you've spoken to who are saying otherwise are likewise incorrect. They, like you, have the right to choose to play the rule some way that differs from the RAW, and to leave a game if their opponent refuses to conform to this incorrect interpretation, but the rules of the game aren't on your side here. Just accept that and move on.

Divine intervention simply says that celestine can't be wounded while her bodyguards are still part of the game, as all hits that the unit takes go to the geminae anyway, without rolling LOS, while they're still alive.

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
no it doesn´t. the destroyer result isn´t a wound. You can´t just pass it on. you pass on the number of wounds created from the result not the result itself. Otherwise The ID effect of the hit would kill a germinae in 1 go from the 2-5 results which it doesn´t.

You aren't resolving Destroyer Attacks correctly. There is no wound pool generated by the Destroyer Weapon hit. The entirety of the Destroyer Weapon Attack Roll is "instead of 1 wound".

Also, Destroyer Attacks are handled as str 10 so a result of 2-5 will pass of the result of that roll and ID a Geminae

Not if celestine was taking the wound as she is an EW. The Str and AP of the wound that effected celestine don´t matter to the divine guardian rule. This whole argument is mute if my understanding of hoe divine guardian works is wrong. wound pools don´t matter. Its the number of wounds inflicted that matter. But only if my understanding of the rule is right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Divine intervention simply says that celestine can't be wounded while her bodyguards are still part of the game, as all hits that the unit takes go to the geminae anyway, without rolling LOS, while they're still alive.

Yeah this isn´t how i interpreted it. I thought that every failed save moved on to them.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Yeah this isn´t how i interpreted it. I thought that every failed save moved on to them.

Right - so we've identified where you went wrong and can now move on from it.

Well yeah but it makes her worse than everyone seems to be hyping about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1 Battle cannon round could kill both the germinae in 1 shot

So start another thread about how bad she is. You've eaten up two and a half pages of this one with your house-rule nonsense so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Terminal wrote:
One thing I'll be testing out soon - once I get the Fall of Cadia book - is using a Stormsword as part of the Castellans detachment.

... you can take Baneblades in a Castellans detachment?


Well, look at that. So you can. Drop Pod Grav Mehrens, BSS in Melta death-rides, Coteaz, Servo Skulls, respawning Guard infantry blobs and a Shadowsword, with enough Detachment space left to bring a couple of Sisters of Silence squads. That's reprehensible.

People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

This is completely different wording than LOS which states the interceding model suffers the wound. The two completely different worded rules do not behave the same way.

 rawne2510 wrote:
wound pools don´t matter. Its the number of wounds inflicted that matter. But only if my understanding of the rule is right.

The distinction between the two does indeed matter quite a lot.
Pg 163, destroyer table. D weapons do not cause more than 1 wound.




Back on topic finally but I use screamers, not intending to use them as a screamer star but since I have a grimoire herald I could easily kind of make one mid game if needed. The daemon prince idea sounds way more fun though, I'll have to try it sometime. Gives me a good excuse to make one.

gungo wrote:
People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

This is completely different wording than LOS which states the interceding model suffers the wound. The two completely different worded rules do not behave the same way.

So you are saying BAPP interpretation is wrong.

gungo wrote:
People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

So I resolve the wound against Celestine and then just pretend the Geminae Superia was wounded instead? Even though it says "resolve the wound against a Geminae Superia"?

Either I can tank AP3 with Celestine's 2+ armour save or I resolve the wounds against the Geminae Superia like it says in the book. It can't be both.

 rawne2510 wrote:

gungo wrote:
People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

This is completely different wording than LOS which states the interceding model suffers the wound. The two completely different worded rules do not behave the same way.

So you are saying BAPP interpretation is wrong.

im not saying anyone is wrong I'm saying the rule literally says Celestine suffers the wound not the geminae. The wounds are only removed from a geminae wound pool.

It hardly matters in the rare case of a str d hit the geminae still get 2+ LoS. She will rarely die to even a 6 on str d.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

gungo wrote:
People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

So I resolve the wound against Celestine and then just pretend the Geminae Superia was wounded instead? Even though it says "resolve the wound against a Geminae Superia"?

Either I can tank AP3 with Celestine's 2+ armour save or I resolve the wounds against the Geminae Superia like it says in the book. It can't be both.

Do not try to selectively edit a quote to prove your wrong statement.
The rule is exactly "Any wounds suffered by Celestine are resolved by the closest geminae superia instead"
Do not change the words
Celestine suffers the wound
Resolve it against geminae

This is where I then think that rule messes up destroyer weapons becasue a deathblow result would attribute a minimum of 7 wounds on celestine meaning that the destroyer rule of it wounds only 1 model goes out the window.

gungo wrote:
im not saying anyone is wrong I'm saying the rule literally says Celestine suffers the wound not the geminae. The wounds are only removed from a geminae wound pool.

It hardly matters in the rare case of a str d hit the geminae still get 2+ LoS

This is the same mistake rawne has been making for two and a half pages. The relevant section of the rule is this:

"In addition, whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

"Suffered" doesn't mean "taken". A unit "suffers" a wound when a successful to-wound roll is made against it. The procedure is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll to wound <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds.
- Allocate wounds
- Resolve allocated wounds (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

For D weapons, the process is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll on the D weapon table for each hit
- Calculate how many wounds each hit has generated <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds
- Resolve wounds against closest models (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

It's an ambiguity around the term "suffers" that's causing the problem here, but the fact remains that if you're rolling saves (and failing them) for Celestine then you're resolving the wounds against her, not the Geminae Superia. That's not what Divine Guardian tells you to do.

That would however mean that Celestine becomes the tank that everyone is hyping about.

gungo wrote:
Do not try to selectively edit a quote to prove your wrong statement.
The rule is exactly "Any wounds suffered by Celestine are resolved by the closest geminae superia instead"
Do not change the words
Celestine suffers the wound
Resolve it against geminae

Don't go all Alex Jones on me - I removed sections of text that weren't relevant to the mistake you're making, that's all.

Here's a rehash:

The relevant section of the rule is this:

"In addition, whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

"Suffered" doesn't mean "taken". A unit "suffers" a wound when a successful to-wound roll is made against it. The procedure is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll to wound <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds.
- Allocate wounds
- Resolve allocated wounds (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

For D weapons, the process is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll on the D weapon table for each hit
- Calculate how many wounds each hit has generated <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds
- Resolve wounds against closest models (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

It's an ambiguity around the term "suffers" that's causing the problem here, but the fact remains that if you're rolling saves (and failing them) for Celestine then you're resolving the wounds against her, not the Geminae Superia. That's not what Divine Guardian tells you to do.


EDIT: If you want some kind of precedent for my interpretation of "suffers", here's the text of the "Haemmorage" psychic power:

"The target must pass two separate Toughness tests or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed for each test that was failed. If the target is removed as a casualty, randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a single Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed."

Models are "suffering" wounds that disallow saves. If we use your interpretation of the term - which requires us to resolve the wound against Celestine and then just say "feth it" and apply the effects to the Geminae Superia - then the model is taking a wound, taking its save, then having to rewind time to not-take the save that it wasn't allowed to take in the first place.

 BBAP wrote:

gungo wrote:
im not saying anyone is wrong I'm saying the rule literally says Celestine suffers the wound not the geminae. The wounds are only removed from a geminae wound pool.

It hardly matters in the rare case of a str d hit the geminae still get 2+ LoS

This is the same mistake rawne has been making for two and a half pages. The relevant section of the rule is this:

"In addition, whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

"Suffered" doesn't mean "taken". A unit "suffers" a wound when a successful to-wound roll is made against it. The procedure is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll to wound <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds.
- Allocate wounds
- Resolve allocated wounds (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

For D weapons, the process is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll on the D weapon table for each hit
- Calculate how many wounds each hit has generated <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds
- Resolve wounds against closest models (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

It's an ambiguity around the term "suffers" that's causing the problem here, but the fact remains that if you're rolling saves (and failing them) for Celestine then you're resolving the wounds against her, not the Geminae Superia. That's not what Divine Guardian tells you to do.

I don't think me and you are opposing statements I'm agreeing with you which is why I said I'm not saying your wrong. I was saying people kept stating the geminae takes the hit or takes the wound which is not what divine guardian states. You are correct After the wounds are suffered it is resolved on the geminae using thier saves etc.

gungo wrote:
I was saying people kept stating the geminae takes the hit or takes the wound which is not what divine guardian states. You are correct After the wounds are suffered it is resolved on the geminae using thier saves etc.

Right - which means you can punt all 12 Deathblow wounds from Celestine onto a Geminae Superia without the need for Look out Sir or anything else. Celestine suffers all the wounds, but they're all resolved against a single Geminae Superia, who can't take saves against them, so she dies and takes the excess with her.

It's not how it'd be resolved using Look Out Sir, but Look Out Sir is irrelevant here. The two rules are completely seperate.

Essentially you'd need three Deathblows to take out Celestine; one for each of the Geminae bodyguards, then a third to kill Celestine herself.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

Strength D means nothing when you become Toughness 0 and are removed from the game. Celestine would be dead, the body guards are dead, and anything else that is with them that is Toughness 4 or less is dead. I've not even rolled CC attacks.

So back to the point then that Celestine can never choose to make a save whilst a Geminae is alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glitcha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

Strength D means nothing when you become Toughness 0 and are removed from the game. Celestine would be dead, the body guards are dead, and anything else that is with them that is Toughness 4 or less is dead. I've not even rolled CC attacks.

Doesn´t a model only ever suffer the effect of Rad grenades once no matter how many models have it?

To bring this convo back on track, another thing that effectively kills deathstar is barrage weapons. Effectively "sniping" out key characters (like libbies, priests, heralds, etc...)

This is what makes Renegades and Heretics armies with a Master of Ordnance so powerful, you can bring a sick amount of barrage blasts. They have the added bonus of bringing cheap, fearless fodder blobs via zombies that can tie up deathstars as well. See the LVO winning tournament list for further info.

 rawne2510 wrote:
So back to the point then that Celestine can never choose to make a save whilst a Geminae is alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glitcha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

Strength D means nothing when you become Toughness 0 and are removed from the game. Celestine would be dead, the body guards are dead, and anything else that is with them that is Toughness 4 or less is dead. I've not even rolled CC attacks.

Doesn´t a model only ever suffer the effect of Rad grenades once no matter how many models have it?

Yes once per squad. Which is why when you jump out of your assault transport to do this, you split the inquisitors up into 4 squads. Then make 4 assaults against the death star at once. Each squad produces a -1 Toughness.

If you can build a competitive list with 4 or more inquisitors equipped with rad-grenades and successfully assault a deathstar all at the same time, cuddos to you and shame on your opponent.

 Glitcha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

Strength D means nothing when you become Toughness 0 and are removed from the game. Celestine would be dead, the body guards are dead, and anything else that is with them that is Toughness 4 or less is dead. I've not even rolled CC attacks.

Fine by me, when I can be bothered painting her she's going into a Herald/Libby star, a unit of Space Marine bikes, Thunderwolves and Cyberwolves - enough that average toughness is five.

 Glitcha wrote:


Yes once per squad. Which is why when you jump out of your assault transport to do this, you split the inquisitors up into 4 squads. Then make 4 assaults against the death star at once. Each squad produces a -1 Toughness.

Rad grenades do not specify that the characteristic modifier is cumulative, so they are not cumulative.

4 assaults from 4 squads of Inquisitors with rad grenades will cause a toughness 4 unit to become toughness 3.

Can we get this thread back on topic please? The thread is about how to beat deathstars, not about whether or not Celestine takes destroyer wounds. You guys should start a thread in YMDC for that one, as it probably does deserve its own thread over there.

On topic, it looks like the main methods people suggest on how to beat a deathstar are either a culexus assassin, a bigger or tougher deathstar, or extreme MSU lists. I don't find that the culexus is a good choice for TAC lists, as he can be useless if you face a non-psyker opponent. Plus he can't take a drop pod taxi anymore, so he's hard to get into position and most deathstars can just go around him depending on where he's at. The "bring your own deathstar to counter the opponent's" isn't really a solution, although it can work sometimes. Many armies can't really do deathstars, making this a non-option for them. The extreme MSU option may be the best, especially for Space Marines as they can get large numbers of ObSec units and transports thanks to their Gladius Strike Force. Ravenwing can sort of do it as well; they don't get ObSec but they are fast enough to kite a deathstar or force the player to split it up to get everybody. I would think Eldar would be good for the same reason; those Windriders are fast!

Trying to make sure you get first turn can work, using things like Coteaz that can give you a bonus to Sieze. Most deathstar players can mitigate this in some way though through clever deployment. The best armies to try this method are probably Tau and Eldar, and possibly Astra Militarum artillery-heavy lists.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
To bring this convo back on track, another thing that effectively kills deathstar is barrage weapons. Effectively "sniping" out key characters (like libbies, priests, heralds, etc...)

This is what makes Renegades and Heretics armies with a Master of Ordnance so powerful, you can bring a sick amount of barrage blasts. They have the added bonus of bringing cheap, fearless fodder blobs via zombies that can tie up deathstars as well. See the LVO winning tournament list for further info.

Not sure what happened during that game. But my guess was that the barkstar didn't have scout moves or Hit&Run to guarantee a massive T2 multi-charge, which gives Brett Perkins maybe two turns to barrage snipe Azrael/Priest. And also the masque is HUGE against most deathstars that lacks shooting.

Don't quote me on that but I believe R & H are also allowed to blast their own units during the shooting phase (including units stuck in combat). So you could easily feed a deathstar a blob of zombies then blast the whole blob to shreds with barrage weapons.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 phoenix darkus wrote:
To bring this convo back on track, another thing that effectively kills deathstar is barrage weapons. Effectively "sniping" out key characters (like libbies, priests, heralds, etc...)

This is what makes Renegades and Heretics armies with a Master of Ordnance so powerful, you can bring a sick amount of barrage blasts. They have the added bonus of bringing cheap, fearless fodder blobs via zombies that can tie up deathstars as well. See the LVO winning tournament list for further info.

Not sure what happened during that game. But my guess was that the barkstar didn't have scout moves or Hit&Run to guarantee a massive T2 multi-charge, which gives Brett Perkins maybe two turns to barrage snipe Azrael/Priest. And also the masque is HUGE against most deathstars that lacks shooting.

The bark star started in reserve and got charged by the screamer star as soon as it turned up.

Yeah like I said, not having HnR really messed him up.

Matt Root's list only has 3 earth shakers that can ID Azrael, even if he fails look out sir, Azrael still has a 2+ save so I would probably risk it.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Can we get this thread back on topic please? The thread is about how to beat deathstars, not about whether or not Celestine takes destroyer wounds. You guys should start a thread in YMDC for that one, as it probably does deserve its own thread over there.

On topic, it looks like the main methods people suggest on how to beat a deathstar are either a culexus assassin, a bigger or tougher deathstar, or extreme MSU lists. I don't find that the culexus is a good choice for TAC lists, as he can be useless if you face a non-psyker opponent. Plus he can't take a drop pod taxi anymore, so he's hard to get into position and most deathstars can just go around him depending on where he's at. The "bring your own deathstar to counter the opponent's" isn't really a solution, although it can work sometimes. Many armies can't really do deathstars, making this a non-option for them. The extreme MSU option may be the best, especially for Space Marines as they can get large numbers of ObSec units and transports thanks to their Gladius Strike Force. Ravenwing can sort of do it as well; they don't get ObSec but they are fast enough to kite a deathstar or force the player to split it up to get everybody. I would think Eldar would be good for the same reason; those Windriders are fast!

Trying to make sure you get first turn can work, using things like Coteaz that can give you a bonus to Sieze. Most deathstar players can mitigate this in some way though through clever deployment. The best armies to try this method are probably Tau and Eldar, and possibly Astra Militarum artillery-heavy lists.

How a Deathstar takes or avoids damage is crucial to how it survives and how it is countered - we never left topic, got tunnel visioned on a very specific part of the conversation but never left topic.

The wording for Celestine's wounds being taken by the bodyguards don't even need a LOS. They are essentially the same model when it comes to wounds being taken.

They get ID'd from any S6 and 2 wounds can be taken to the bodyguard from a single hit. But even if Celestine takes 2 StrD shots (and rolls a 6), the 2 bodyguards die. No look out sir is even rolled. It reads, they take the wounds - period. Celestine can be in front of the deathstar with the next closest being the Heralds (to ignore 1 wound per phase) then after that fails, you take them on Celestine. The wounds get transferred to the bodyguards even if they are in the back of the unit outside of 6" inches away. It's a completely broken rule with no limitations.

If the unit average is higher so is Celestine's

Saythings wrote:
The wording for Celestine's wounds being taken by the bodyguards don't even need a LOS. They are essentially the same model when it comes to wounds being taken.

They get ID'd from any S6 and 2 wounds can be taken to the bodyguard from a single hit. But even if Celestine takes 2 StrD shots (and rolls a 6), the 2 bodyguards die. No look out sir is even rolled. It reads, they take the wounds - period. Celestine can be in front of the deathstar with the next closest being the Heralds (to ignore 1 wound per phase) then after that fails, you take them on Celestine. The wounds get transferred to the bodyguards even if they are in the back of the unit outside of 6" inches away. It's a completely broken rule with no limitations.

Yes but the wording means that you can´t tank crap AP shots with celestine and her 2+. Every wound must automatically go to the bodyguard then. This means you can only LOS once those 2 are dead. I didn´t think that was the case but majority of people here can´t be wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
If the unit average is higher so is Celestine's

But not for determining ID.

 rawne2510 wrote:

Saythings wrote:
The wording for Celestine's wounds being taken by the bodyguards don't even need a LOS. They are essentially the same model when it comes to wounds being taken.

They get ID'd from any S6 and 2 wounds can be taken to the bodyguard from a single hit. But even if Celestine takes 2 StrD shots (and rolls a 6), the 2 bodyguards die. No look out sir is even rolled. It reads, they take the wounds - period. Celestine can be in front of the deathstar with the next closest being the Heralds (to ignore 1 wound per phase) then after that fails, you take them on Celestine. The wounds get transferred to the bodyguards even if they are in the back of the unit outside of 6" inches away. It's a completely broken rule with no limitations.

Yes but the wording means that you can´t tank crap AP shots with celestine and her 2+. Every wound must automatically go to the bodyguard then. This means you can only LOS once those 2 are dead. I didn´t think that was the case but majority of people here can´t be wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
If the unit average is higher so is Celestine's

But not for determining ID.

How do you figure that? Instant death entry states "after modifiers" there's nothing in Multiple Toughness Values about it, nor in the Special Rules Appendix.

The strength of the weapon is evaluated against the specific models Toughness. Majority toughness is only used to determine the roll for wounding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Majority toughness isn´t a stat modifier. A toughness 3 tzeentch herald does no get ID from a grot gun when he is in a brimstone squad. He gets wounded on 3s but that is all

 rawne2510 wrote:
The strength of the weapon is evaluated against the specific models Toughness. Majority toughness is only used to determine the roll for wounding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Majority toughness isn´t a stat modifier. A toughness 3 tzeentch herald does no get ID from a grot gun when he is in a brimstone squad. He gets wounded on 3s but that is all

And this is written where?

Show me where the majority toughness rule specifically says it modifies a models Toughness permanently. Rather than just for the evaluation of the to wound roll?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I ask because at this specific moment I don´t have access to my rule book.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
The strength of the weapon is evaluated against the specific models Toughness. Majority toughness is only used to determine the roll for wounding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Majority toughness isn´t a stat modifier. A toughness 3 tzeentch herald does no get ID from a grot gun when he is in a brimstone squad. He gets wounded on 3s but that is all

And this is written where?

Even if Majority Toughness was a stat modifier, you only do it while rolling to wound. When you are checking for instant death, are you currently rolling to wound?

This is my understanding but as I don´t have a book in front of me to see exact wording then I won´t argue.

 rawne2510 wrote:

Saythings wrote:
The wording for Celestine's wounds being taken by the bodyguards don't even need a LOS. They are essentially the same model when it comes to wounds being taken.

They get ID'd from any S6 and 2 wounds can be taken to the bodyguard from a single hit. But even if Celestine takes 2 StrD shots (and rolls a 6), the 2 bodyguards die. No look out sir is even rolled. It reads, they take the wounds - period. Celestine can be in front of the deathstar with the next closest being the Heralds (to ignore 1 wound per phase) then after that fails, you take them on Celestine. The wounds get transferred to the bodyguards even if they are in the back of the unit outside of 6" inches away. It's a completely broken rule with no limitations.

Yes but the wording means that you can´t tank crap AP shots with celestine and her 2+. Every wound must automatically go to the bodyguard then. This means you can only LOS once those 2 are dead. I didn´t think that was the case but majority of people here can´t be wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
If the unit average is higher so is Celestine's

But not for determining ID.

No, you still tank the wounds on Celestine's 2+, 4++. If a wound goes thru, it goes to their bodyguard instead. The reason the bodyguards have a 3+/4++ is for when they are the closest model to the firer (or melee swing).

The 200pt monstrosity of a model that is Celestine is ridiculous. There is no way around it. She is the best model the Imperium has every gotten. For as cheap as she is - and for as easy as she is to add to any CAD/Ally - she is almost ALWAYS an auto-include. Hell you can even slap her in front of 3 Centurions and it'll get pretty dumb, pretty fast for 200 pts.

She literally has the best rules ever written - her Rules as Written is unreal. There isn't a single rule given that is bad - except maybe her Warlord trait since no one is going to be using her with Sisters (unless you want a sub-optimal army list).

Obviously, this is my own opinion, feel free to think I'm wrong or other models are better but I'd have to disagree. Haha.

Also - I don't know where it is in the BRB, but Toughness Majority is only for wounding. Once the wounds are distributed and you get past Celestine's pseudo-T5, you treat each shot against her T3. She is Eternal Warrior, so she'll only be taking 1 wound at a time, but her bodyguard's will be dead against anything S6 or better. As for D shots, I'm pretty sure she takes the entire D6+6 wounds. In ITC however, she'll take only 3 wounds (from a 6 on the D chart). She would normal die since its S10 for ID purposes but the EW makes it not ID her and remains 3 wounds.

I don't think Celestine can tank the wounds she 'suffers' with her 2+.

Divine Guardian, states that any wounds suffer by Celestine goes to the body guard, thus the bodyguard has to tank a bolter wound with their 3+.

If its read any "un-saved wounds" then Celestine obviously tanks it first before passing on.

As I read it, wounds suffered are wounds that failed their save. It would say 'resolve all wounds' on her bodyguard.

I believe the 'wounds suffered' are wounds that would have lowered the model's wound profile by 1 - aka wounds that failed their armour save.

I could be wrong. But RAW, this is how I see it and others I play with.

 rawne2510 wrote:
The strength of the weapon is evaluated against the specific models Toughness. Majority toughness is only used to determine the roll for wounding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Majority toughness isn´t a stat modifier. A toughness 3 tzeentch herald does no get ID from a grot gun when he is in a brimstone squad. He gets wounded on 3s but that is all

I can't find anything to confirm or deny this but it hardly matters. St Celestine herself is never going to get hit, the Geninae and Heralds will be suffering the actual wounds.

She is an eternal warrior so ID doesn´t matter for her but losing both geminae to 1 battle cannon round would hurt.

If she is at the front then the wounds automatically pass to her geminae at which point 1 failed 4++ kills a geminae and if she is in a squad then that is even more wounds on the geminae before she can start tanking them or make LOS to other models in the squad

 rawne2510 wrote:
She is an eternal warrior so ID doesn´t matter for her but losing both geminae to 1 battle cannon round would hurt.

If she is at the front then the wounds automatically pass to her geminae at which point 1 failed 4++ kills a geminae and if she is in a squad then that is even more wounds on the geminae before she can start tanking them or make LOS to other models in the squad

Libby Conclave gets the Invisibility Psychic power and the battle canon can't even aim at the squad.

You put St. Celestine out front and LoS on a 2+ with another model (say Smashfucker) against all incoming hits but the D-weapons. That's a 1/12 chance to kill one Germinae when hitting St. Celestine with a battlecannon. When the D-weapons hit take them on St. Celestine and they automatically transfer to the Germinae (which can be anywhere in the unit). Even if she dies to mass D she can revive on a 2d6 roll of 10 or less. She's good, let's just leave it at that.

The thing is basically that in most cases D-weapons won't be able to kill the important characters in a unit. They're made to handle that with additional throwaway wound. Sure having Smashfucker out front vs. a Wraithknight turn 1 would be pretty scary (assume you have to because of Scatterbikes). Buut that 1-in-6 chance isn't exactly a counter when you're so dependant on going first because of spells, now is it? So 50% of the time, it works 22% of the time. Now that's not much of a counter when you've maaaybe killed 1 HQ in the whole deathstar. I'd say that doesn't qualify as a counter at all, maybe a hail-mary., but not a counter. Stomps on the other hand...

Move along, please...

Not you you consider that her wounds automatically go to her Geminae. She can´t choose to LOS until they are dead.

St. Celestine is not the one LoS, another model will LoS for St. Celestine. LoS will make the wounds go on to another model before it is allocated to St. Celestine. Won't it?

Didn't mean to rip open THAT discussion again.

The point is her divine guardian rule means all wounds automatically go to the Geminae. You don´t get to LOS. Its a blessing and a curse at the same time for her if you interpret it that way.

I started a post before to see what peoples thoughts were but it didn´t get many replys so I assume everyone is looking to play it this way.

I don't think you understand.... I agree with everything you're saying. But say that Smasfucker looks-out-sirs for St. Celestine, then HE takes alle the wounds from small arms fire. So a battlecannon shot against St. Celestine won't neccesarily kill the Germinae. Only if Smashfucker fails to look-out-sir for St. Celestine will the wounds transfer unto the Germinae.

The LOS roll is made by the model hit not the model getting in the way. Celestine has to roll the LOS which she can´t do until her geminae are dead

Can someone please clarify for me exactly what we mean by a 'Deathstar' ?? Thanks!

 rawne2510 wrote:
The LOS roll is made by the model hit not the model getting in the way. Celestine has to roll the LOS which she can´t do until her geminae are dead

That is incorrect. LoS is rolled by the model 'Looking out for Sir' - the 'Sir' in this case being St. Celestine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nuclear Mekanik wrote:
Can someone please clarify for me exactly what we mean by a 'Deathstar' ?? Thanks!

This is an example Death Star. All the models in Bold join the same unit to add many overlapping benefits to the unit which render it pretty much unkillable. The Chapter Master tanks all incoming fire. he has a 2+/3++/2+++ save aand will easily survive 120 shots from Eldar Scatterbikes, so you can't kill him with shooting, largely due to his 2+ FnP. The unit is Fearless, causes Fear, has +1 Attack, rerolls saves in close combat (Priest: War Hymns), rerolls to hit in round 1 of combat (zealot) , rerolls to wound (Priest: War Hymns), and has Hit & Run so you can't tie it down in combat. The librarians cast 4 spells on a 2+ and you will most likely always be invisible and will have 6 weapons that have Force (Instant Death). The unit is also ObSec. This is a Death Star.

Battle Demi-Company - Core
HQ1: Captain, Chapter Master upgrade, Space Marine Bike, Artificer Armour, The Gorgon's Chain(, Power Fist [240pts] (WARLORD)
EL1: Command Squad, Space Marine Bikes, Apothecary, 4x Storm Shield, 4x Gravgun, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant [300pts]
Troop1: Tactical Squad, Transport1 [70pts]
Troop2: Tactical Squad [70pts]
Troop3: Tactical Squad [70pts]
FA1: Attack Bike [40pts]
HS1: Devastator Squad [70pts]
Transport1: Drop Pod [35pts]

Honoured Ancients - Auxiliary
EL2: Dreadnought [100pts]

Librarius Conclave - Command
HQ2: Librarian(65), Force Axe(0), Jump Pack(15) [80pts]
HQ3: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Jump Pack(15), Mastery Level 2(25) [105pts]
HQ4: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]

Librarius Conclave - Command
HQ5: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Jump Pack(15) [80pts]
HQ6: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]
HQ7: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]

PRIMARY TOTAL: [1590pts]

SECONDARY DETACHMENT: Allied Detachment - Codex Adepta Sororitas

HQ1: Saint Celestine [135pts]
HQ2: Ministorum Priest, The Litanies of Faith[40pts]
HQ3: Ministorum Priest [25pts]
Troop1: Battle Sister Squad [60pts]

SECONDARY TOTAL: [260pts]

ROSTER TOTAL: [1850pts]
MODELS: 43
KP: 19
WC: 10

So how does a marine who doesn´t have the character profile able to roll look out sir from his sgt.

Characters are not the only one who can LoS. You look out sir on a 4+ for Characters, you look out sir on a 2+ for Independant character. But the one who is rolling is the one trying to save the character - ie. any model within 2", which can of course also be a generic space marine. This means that when Smashucker LoS to take the wounds for St. Celestine the wounds go onto him and not to St. Celestine nor then unto the Germinae.

Edit:
Disregard. I was mistaken.

 Corvus_corax wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
The LOS roll is made by the model hit not the model getting in the way. Celestine has to roll the LOS which she can´t do until her geminae are dead

That is incorrect. LoS is rolled by the model 'Looking out for Sir' - the 'Sir' in this case being St. Celestine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nuclear Mekanik wrote:
Can someone please clarify for me exactly what we mean by a 'Deathstar' ?? Thanks!

This is an example Death Star. All the models in Bold join the same unit to add many overlapping benefits to the unit which render it pretty much unkillable. The Chapter Master tanks all incoming fire. he has a 2+/3++/2+++ save aand will easily survive 120 shots from Eldar Scatterbikes, so you can't kill him with shooting, largely due to his 2+ FnP. The unit is Fearless, causes Fear, has +1 Attack, rerolls saves in close combat (Priest: War Hymns), rerolls to hit in round 1 of combat (zealot) , rerolls to wound (Priest: War Hymns), and has Hit & Run so you can't tie it down in combat. The librarians cast 4 spells on a 2+ and you will most likely always be invisible and will have 6 weapons that have Force (Instant Death). The unit is also ObSec. This is a Death Star.

Battle Demi-Company - Core
HQ1: Captain, Chapter Master upgrade, Space Marine Bike, Artificer Armour, The Gorgon's Chain(, Power Fist [240pts] (WARLORD)
EL1: Command Squad, Space Marine Bikes, Apothecary, 4x Storm Shield, 4x Gravgun, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant [300pts]
Troop1: Tactical Squad, Transport1 [70pts]
Troop2: Tactical Squad [70pts]
Troop3: Tactical Squad [70pts]
FA1: Attack Bike [40pts]
HS1: Devastator Squad [70pts]
Transport1: Drop Pod [35pts]

Honoured Ancients - Auxiliary
EL2: Dreadnought [100pts]

Librarius Conclave - Command
HQ2: Librarian(65), Force Axe(0), Jump Pack(15) [80pts]
HQ3: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Jump Pack(15), Mastery Level 2(25) [105pts]
HQ4: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]

Librarius Conclave - Command
HQ5: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Jump Pack(15) [80pts]
HQ6: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]
HQ7: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]

PRIMARY TOTAL: [1590pts]

SECONDARY DETACHMENT: Allied Detachment - Codex Adepta Sororitas

HQ1: Saint Celestine [135pts]
HQ2: Ministorum Priest, The Litanies of Faith[40pts]
HQ3: Ministorum Priest [25pts]
Troop1: Battle Sister Squad [60pts]

SECONDARY TOTAL: [260pts]

ROSTER TOTAL: [1850pts]
MODELS: 43
KP: 19
WC: 10

Lordy, that's not a very pleasant prospect!!

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this properly!!

 Corvus_corax wrote:
Characters are not the only one who can LoS. You look out sir on a 4+ for Characters, you look out sir on a 2+ for Independant character. But the one who is rolling is the one trying to save the character - ie. any model within 2", which can of course also be a generic space marine. This means that when Smashucker LoS to take the wounds for St. Celestine the wounds go onto him and not to St. Celestine nor then unto the Germinae.

Sorry corvus you are wrong. The rule for LOS is only under the character entry and is not a USR. It is the character that wants to pass of the wound that is rolling not the model trying to take the wound.

Hmm, I'll leave it for now then and will consult my rulebook later. Perhaps I should've done that in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It seems you are correct, my apologies. However, even if St. Celestine can't tank for the unit (as wounds automatically pass to the germinae) one may still LoS for her. Or? And if not can one LoS for the Germinae?

I don´t believe the Geminae are characters so that wouldn´t be possible.

As for celestine LOS I think that her divine guardian rule would kick in first which slightly negates how good she is.

The bodyguards are characters so they LOS on a 4+. Celestine LOS on a 2+.

But wounds taken (after failed saves) are transferred to the bodyguard automatically.

You can still put Celestine in the front and LOS to a Smashfether on a 2+ BEFORE the armor saves are taken (passed or failed).

Deathstar is shot at with Celestine in the front. Celestine takes a LOS test if you want. If you pass, the next closest model gets it (probably a 3++ Smashfether), If you fail, Celestine takes the shot on a 2+ armor or 4++. If you fail the THAT save, the bodyguard takes the wound instead. Resolve ID's and wounds normally AFTER the wound was originally taken from Celestine.

It's ridiculous, but that's how it reads.

As long as St. Celestine can LoS onto Smashfucker then we're guuud. Bring on the Stormsurge's and Wraithknights, I don't give a damn. Smashfucker's got insurance, baby. He wants to tank mass shooting, but not those D-weapons. Those 6'es are still a bit scary. :p

Saythings wrote:
The bodyguards are characters so they LOS on a 4+. Celestine LOS on a 2+.

But wounds taken (after failed saves) are transferred to the bodyguard automatically.

You can still put Celestine in the front and LOS to a Smashfether on a 2+ BEFORE the armor saves are taken (passed or failed).

Deathstar is shot at with Celestine in the front. Celestine takes a LOS test if you want. If you pass, the next closest model gets it (probably a 3++ Smashfether), If you fail, Celestine takes the shot on a 2+ armor or 4++. If you fail the THAT save, the bodyguard takes the wound instead. Resolve ID's and wounds normally AFTER the wound was originally taken from Celestine.

It's ridiculous, but that's how it reads.

The big sticking point is most people are saying they auto pass to geminae before she even gets to make a save.

Because the killer for divine guardian says that wounds received by celestine passes on so a deathblow destroyer hit could kill all 3 because she receives 6+D6 wounds to 1 model then her rule spreads it too multiple models

It says any wounds SUFFERED (post LOS and post failed armour saves) are taken against THE closest bodyguard INSTEAD.

Suffered meaning after the look-out-sirs and after the failed saves. Furthermore, it says resolve the wounds against the bodyguard instead. Resolved wounds happen after saves.

The bodyguards are individual models (same as Celestine). A single D-shot can only wound a single model as per D weapon wording.

Finally, it specifically mentions the resolved wounds go to the bodyguard instead. There isn't any wording to support that one D shot would kill 3 models.

It's very specific in wording, I don't think it's balanced by any means, but it's hard to argue wording. I just play the game. Anyone else can play it different, but unless a judge/ITC nerfs it, it's pretty straight forward. This is my opinion on how it should be played, I could be told by a TO to play it differently, but that ruling would be based of their interpretation.

Edit: I could be wrong. Hell, I'd like to know if I'm playing Celestine wrong, but this is how I used her in my last game and my opponent agreed.

On the Divine Guardian rule:
It only says "Resolve any wounds suffered by St. Celestine against the Germinae closest to her instead."

FnP saves are for example taken when a model has suffered wounds, so this does happen after armor saves as far as I can tell.

I read that as all the D-wounds go on to the Germinae as they are a package deal, my friend (see D-weapon wounds being model specific). The additional D-wounds all stem from the first wound suffered from a D-weapon hit. They also do not pass on to other models in the unit, as we've already established. The Germinae takes 1 wound which instead becomes the 6+D6 wounds in the case of a 6.

This means that I can LoS for St. Celestine (as she has not yet suffered the wounds until I fail my LoS).

I'd definitely agree with the first and third comment. 100%.

The wounds from a single D-shot go from Celestine to a single bodyguard though. The rule solidifies this when it says the wounds resolve against the closest bodyguard, singular. I don't see how the leftover 5+D6 wounds work their way back to Celestine, then back to the 2nd BG, then back to her to finish her off. Hmm. Interesting interpretation.

Then we are in agreement. That is my interpretation as well.

I haven't looked at the book in a while, I thought all 6's on D hits against non-SHV or GMC's simply removed them from play. It's been a while though.

BRB: 0 - Nothing // 2-5 - D3+3 // 6 - D6+6 wounds on a single model.

ITC: 0 - Nothing // 2-5 - D3 wounds // 6 - 3 wounds on a single model.

Stomped models get removed on a 6 though!

So when does a model suffer a wound? Before or after saves? I always understood it to mean before saves were made, and in scanning the BRB for proof found on p. 37: "Invulnerable Saves...may always be taken when a model suffers a Wound."

But then on p. 36 I noticed that if you fail your Armor Save, the model "suffers a Wound."

I'd pretend to be shocked that the rules contradict themselves within the space of a page, but I'm not that good of an actor.

Ugh, never mind, back to deathstars...

You suffer the wound after the roll for T iirc

The order is a little out of whack. This way is faster, not that they care about that anymore. But if anything is should go Hit->Armour->Toughness->FNP->Inv, at least imho. I'm not going to storm any gates over it, but it would make more sense to me.

Are there any good chaos deathstars besides Cabal/hounds and screamer star?

Budzerker wrote:
Are there any good chaos deathstars besides Cabal/hounds and screamer star?

You can do Thousand Sons Termie Star.

Basically a sorceror with the Astral relic and a exalted sorcerer with the seerbane attached to a bunch of termies with powerfists. You can attach the cabal with them to make then Star even stronger. And finally a ALpha legion sorcerer with the relic to leave combat.

Budzerker wrote:
Are there any good chaos deathstars besides Cabal/hounds and screamer star?

Isn't there one you can make with a bunch of Nurgle Plague Drones or something? I don't know cuz I don't play Nurgle.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Budzerker wrote:
Are there any good chaos deathstars besides Cabal/hounds and screamer star?

Isn't there one you can make with a bunch of Nurgle Plague Drones or something? I don't know cuz I don't play Nurgle.

6-8 plague drones, one upgraded to Plaguebringer with a Greater Reward for an etherblade. 2 Heralds of Nurgle attached to the squad, both with greater rewards, one with the FNP Locus, and if you have other psychic support you can make them ML2 for biomancy or daemonology.

They're not super fast, but you have a decent amount of AP2, and 22-28 T5 wounds with a 5++ Shrouded and FNP. Can be very hard to shift.