So.. RG is a monster. T6 2+/3++/5+++ 6w, and on a 4+ when he dies, he gets up with d3 wounds. What is your "plan" to deal with him?
A riptide with an ion Accelerator w/o support gets 3 shots at bs3, so (3/2) will hit.
s7 ap2, so ignore armor, and 3+ to wound, so 2/3 will wound
3++ invul, so 1/3 will make it through armor
5++ 2/3 will defeat the fnp roll
So each riptide will cause per turn, (3/2)(2/3)(1/3)(2/3) or (2/9) a wound, 9*6 is 54, 54/2 is 27 riptides to kill him in 1 turn, or a measly 4995 points.. Before even account for the "1" wound his resurrection would give (d3 average is 2, 50/50 to get up so call it 1)
Pick up a Sicarian Infiltrator Preceps, give him the Phaser Taser, try to drown him in attacks to allow at least one wound, make him fail an Initiative test on a 6, hope that he doesn't save it, and there it is, removed from play
Or alternatively, a full squad of Grav Kataphrons, that'll be 72 grav shots in one shooting phase, he probably won't survive. If he gets up I'll do it again.
i play a eldar list with nothing that cant outmove him, he will never see combat unless i allow him to try to take advantage of the soulburts from when he kills the unit i fed him. Ill just ignore him, the buffs he gives to units around him dont concern me in the least.
That or probably charging an entire bully boyz formation into him. All things considered it's probably easier for orks to just tarpit him with grots or something.
As a fellow Tau player, I'm wondering about massed pulse fire or massed Kroot Sniper shots.
28 points per Sniper wound, with 2/3 chance of 2+/5++ and 1/3 chance of 3++/5+++, meaning 2/27 + 2/27 or 4/27 unsaved wounds per 28 points. Roughly 198 points per unsaved wound using Sniper Kroot.
Not terribly efficient.
Each pulse hit has a 1/3 chance to wound, 1/6 chance to penetrate armor, and 2/3 chance to ignore FnP, or roughly a 1/27 chance of causing an unsaved wound.
If we're talking two Fish full of Fire Warrior Fury with an Ethereal attached with enough ML to bring the Fire Warriors up to BS5, that's 2.5 pulse hits per Warrior, x23 Warriors, plus 8 snapshot BCs for 1.33 hits, plus 12 TL BS2 Drone Pulse Carbines for about 6.67 hits, equaling 65.5 pulse hits, causing roughly 2.3 unsaved wounds.
...Still not terribly efficient (108 +99+ 160 +50 = 417)
Stormsurge with Destroyer Missiles seem like an excellent choice, though.
Presume you can get BS to 5 and upgrade all the missiles to D, you'll get 3.33 missile hits, with each missile hit giving you 2/3 chance of an average of 2 AP2 wounds and a 1/6 chance of an average of 9.5 unignorable wounds (Insta-popping RG).
If you get at least one 6 on the D (don't have the binomial distribution tool on hand, so I can't give the exact math for that), everything else you roll is meaningless - you've automatically killed RG with just that one 6.
If you don't get at least one D, you're only applying an average of 2.6ish D2-5 rolls, averaging just over 5 AP2 wounds that ignore FnP. that's only about 1.7 unsaved wounds.
If you're close enough and using the Blastcannon, you're adding another 1.67 D hits to add roughly 1.3 D2-5 rolls, increasing the total to just under 8 AP2 FnP-ignoring wounds, resulting in about 2.5 unsaved wounds... and increasing the chance you get at least one "annihilate the enemy" roll of 6.
Maybe a Riptide with HBC and SMS can be points efficient?
BS 6 (to deal with Gets Hot), Nova the HBC, and fire away: 31/36 hits per shot x 12 shots = 31/3 hits, with 1/3 of hits going through 2+/5+++ (reduced by 1/9) and 1/6 of hits going through 3++/5+++ (reduced by 2/9). That's 31/81 plus 31/81 = 62/81 ~= .77 unsaved wounds.
Add to that the 35/9 SMS hits, each with 1/27 chance of causing an unsaved wound, and you get 35/243 wounds, or roughly .14 unsaved wounds.
Together, you're looking at ~.91 unsaved wounds per shooting phase.
Using a bare bones Riptide Wing with Novaing HBCs and TLSMS, if you use the formation bonus to double your firing, you're looking at roughly 5.46 unsaved wounds against RG.
How about an 9 man squad consisting of 8 Dual Plasma Rifle Crisis suits, Deepstriking into Rapid Fire range, boosted by a buff'vre (MSSS, C&CN, PEN) and using just two Markerlights?
8 x 4 shots = 32 shots. TL BS5 = 35/36 hits/shot. x32 shots = 280/9 hits. if boosted with Monster Hunter through the PEN, each hit wounds 3/4 of the time, and is reduced by 3++/5++ (i.e. by 2/9). 280/9 multiplied by 3/4 multiplied by 2/9 = 140/27 ~= 5.18 unsaved wounds.
You'd need 8 attached Gun Drones to bring the unsaved wounds above an average of 6.
Interesting notes:
Sniper shots have the same effectiveness, per shot, as a Nova-ing HBC.
TL plasma instead of a TLSMS would give slightly better results if within Rapid Fire range, but somewhat worse results if within the 12" to 24" range.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: 50 conscripts and a priest. 175pts to be able to tarpit him the whole game.
He can hit every model within 1" of him at the same time, as a MC based guy, and conscripts being about 2 deep at 1", that's a pretty huge amount of dead guardsmen. I would see tarpitting him for turn or 2, but you'll either be out of combat, or out of men in not very long
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: 50 conscripts and a priest. 175pts to be able to tarpit him the whole game.
He can hit every model within 1" of him at the same time, as a MC based guy, and conscripts being about 2 deep at 1", that's a pretty huge amount of dead guardsmen. I would see tarpitting him for turn or 2, but you'll either be out of combat, or out of men in not very long
He's a 1 model unit and can't be joined by independent characters or board transports. There's a limit to how much damage he can personally do.
This plus kite him like a mofo. If there's no other reasonable target, he's going to eat 4 cover-ignoring BS5+ D missiles, but otherwise, everything else dies as he lumbers around the board. JSJ is a bitch.
In the sweetest ever moment of poetic justice in the 40k universe, Roboute Guilliman, Imperial Primarch, cannot harm the Avatar of Khaine.
We've checked it out over on The Dark City. As his close combat weapon has 'Soul Blaze', the Avatar ignores any attacks made by it. He has no other close combat weapons to attack with a different profile. Nowhere in the rules does it state that you can elect to attack in close combat without using a weapon.
In the sweetest ever moment of poetic justice in the 40k universe, Roboute Guilliman, Imperial Primarch, cannot harm the Avatar of Khaine.
We've checked it out over on The Dark City. As his close combat weapon has 'Soul Blaze', the Avatar ignores any attacks made by it. He has no other close combat weapons to attack with a different profile. Nowhere in the rules does it state that you can elect to attack in close combat without using a weapon.
It's a beautiful moment
Is the hand of dominium not a power fist? I only am referencing a rules leak, so i haven't seen it all. but its another weapon in 30k
In the sweetest ever moment of poetic justice in the 40k universe, Roboute Guilliman, Imperial Primarch, cannot harm the Avatar of Khaine.
We've checked it out over on The Dark City. As his close combat weapon has 'Soul Blaze', the Avatar ignores any attacks made by it. He has no other close combat weapons to attack with a different profile. Nowhere in the rules does it state that you can elect to attack in close combat without using a weapon.
In the sweetest ever moment of poetic justice in the 40k universe, Roboute Guilliman, Imperial Primarch, cannot harm the Avatar of Khaine.
We've checked it out over on The Dark City. As his close combat weapon has 'Soul Blaze', the Avatar ignores any attacks made by it. He has no other close combat weapons to attack with a different profile. Nowhere in the rules does it state that you can elect to attack in close combat without using a weapon.
It's a beautiful moment
Is the hand of dominium not a power fist? I only am referencing a rules leak, so i haven't seen it all. but its another weapon in 30k
I think it was something about both weapons appearing under the single profile. It's not classed as two weapons, but the single weapon for both.
In the sweetest ever moment of poetic justice in the 40k universe, Roboute Guilliman, Imperial Primarch, cannot harm the Avatar of Khaine.
We've checked it out over on The Dark City. As his close combat weapon has 'Soul Blaze', the Avatar ignores any attacks made by it. He has no other close combat weapons to attack with a different profile. Nowhere in the rules does it state that you can elect to attack in close combat without using a weapon.
It's a beautiful moment
Is the hand of dominium not a power fist? I only am referencing a rules leak, so i haven't seen it all. but its another weapon in 30k
Read Smash. He can harm the AoK. Soul Blaze does not carry over to Smash attacks. It won't wipe the AoK out, but he can harm him.
I'd have to read smash again but even if it does not use the weapon, it will be hitting on 4's wounding on 2's 5++ so sub 50% chance for 1 wound per turn
In the sweetest ever moment of poetic justice in the 40k universe, Roboute Guilliman, Imperial Primarch, cannot harm the Avatar of Khaine.
We've checked it out over on The Dark City. As his close combat weapon has 'Soul Blaze', the Avatar ignores any attacks made by it. He has no other close combat weapons to attack with a different profile. Nowhere in the rules does it state that you can elect to attack in close combat without using a weapon.
It's a beautiful moment
Is the hand of dominium not a power fist? I only am referencing a rules leak, so i haven't seen it all. but its another weapon in 30k
Read Smash. He can harm the AoK. Soul Blaze does not carry over to Smash attacks. It won't wipe the AoK out, but he can harm him.
Smash still uses the weapon (especially if its AP1), and never mentions otherwise. So, Smash is out.
But! If you could imagine some way to charge the Avatar 30 times (never having shot at him) HoW could kill him.
Honestly, I did some for fun rolling, and Gulliman actually has decent odds of destroying a fresh stompa before it can swing or stomp. If a stompa were wounded by supporting fire from gulliman's army, it wouldn't have a chance.
If the stompa didn't get lucky 6s with its str D hits or stomp (melee hits on 5s, to boot), the stompa will NOT survive a second round of gulliman swinging.
But the answer to "how do orks kill gulliman" is "no".
maybe, MAYBE, if I brought a mind-boggling amount of lootas and flash gits, and no one shot at them, they might eventually be able to bring him down.
But as orks, it's almost impossible to kill something like riptides (or gulliman) at range, and gulliman instapawns anything in the ork codex many times over in CC.
Another rather frustrating tactic we came up with is bundling him with 6 squads of single Beastmasters in a Ynnari Reborn Warhost.
Charge with one. Let him kill it which will generate 2 Soulbursts. Use one of those to charge him with another single Beastmaster, and then use the other to shoot with something else nasty
He's a Soulburst factory!
They can kill your flock of 10pt Beastmasters if they like, but they'll trigger 12 Soulbursts if they do...
Edit: current thinking is that the wording of the Smash rule is that it's ambiguous as to whether it's made with the model's existing CCW. Technically the wording runs on from the 'all his attacks are made at AP2' from being a Monstrous Creature, which never states that he attacks with anything other than his existing CCW.
Pretty rules-lawyery and likely not RAI, and also not how most people play.
Smash will statistically kill the Avatar slightly before the Avatar kills Roboute, but considering that it's ~200pts vs ~300pts I'd say the Avatar's quids in
I don't know. Expensive but perhaps The Council of Waaaagh! with max number of Nobz and all given a PK. All models with PK. DLS for the extra WS. Ghazzy will have no choice but to challenge and probably won't last the game but I hope his 2++ counts (don't know his weapon stats). Meanwhile hope the sheer weight of PK attacks from the rest of the council will eventually put him down enough he fails to get back up. That's what..50 PK hits or 65 on the charge.
However, because of the price tag, if it took the whole game to get this gang over into combat with, kill him, and have no time for anything else then I'd say Girly man did his job successfully.
techsoldaten wrote: I play CSM. Going to screw with his leadership with Fear and wound him over time with Soul Blaze.
Take Magnus and cast 2 S D power at Guiliman, and prey to Tzeentch for a lucky 6.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I actually think "having trouble taking down Roboute Guiliman" is somewhat over react to this new released Primarch. Just have a look at his statline, in defensive wise, he is just a Riptide with Stim Injector and the Shield being Nova Charged, and JUST one more wound, which is offset by he is forced to be a "one man unit" while Riptide could bring up to 2 Sheild Missile drone to provide 2 more 4++ ablitive wounds to eat those AP2 wounds first and more importantly, to eat that 6 result of the S D attack, which would rest remove Guiliman although with a 50/50 chance he might come back with up to half of his original wounds restored. He also don't have the awesome assault jump due to just being a MC which means he is verrrry slooooow by himself so he is relatively easy targeted. No denying that his buff ability is Awesome, his combat ability is Great, but as a footsloging MC running all on his own he is vulnerable in 7th edition (at least when fighting against top tier army like Eldar, Tau, Daemons etc.), given how common StrD are nowadays, as well as how many high quantity high strength shots / attacks are in current games.
I play many factions and my plan is essentially the same for all of them:
Ignore him
Imagine there was a carnifex that you just couldn't kill (hypothetically). What would you do? Just NOT get into combat with it, which is almost as easy as it sounds.
No faction in the game lacks a comparably-pointed tarpit or potential solution if for some reason you're SET on killing him (is a bad idea though)
Thunder puppies can go toe to toe with him, and at least tarpit him for much of the game
Tyranids can literally fly circles around him, as can daemons/CSM (although they can D him to death)
Wraithknights can D him (as can other eldar units)
Grav cents can literally just walk backwards as they shoot him to death
GSC can drown him in bodies (and weight of rending attacks)
IG can kill him at range before he ever gets to combat
Tau can look at him sideways (HBC, never ion) and the D missiles from the stormsurges, plus general weight of fire
(Math aside, with 4 marker lights a minimum riptide wing is going to average just under 5 wounds in the turn they ripple fire on papa smurf....at 30" range....really not worried about him)
Dark Angels have plasma galore on bikes (plus full PB overwatch)
SM have grav galore on bikes (plus hit and run if you're WS)
Eldar have Scatbikes that he will never touch also
Necrons have wraiths, plus I bet Nightbringer would give him a run for his money...or at least a transformed Orikan (120 points btw)
Sadly Orks do have to rely on the Stompa
I bet an even amount of custodes would even take him down
Go toe to toe with Draigo and he might even lose
A 315 point bloodthirster could take him if he rolled the right gifts
Oh or for fun an Iron Armed GUO....enjoy wounding on a 4+ lmao
Does Roboute has the Eternal Warrior USR, or just the Celestine-esque getting up again rule?
If he doesn't have Eternal Warrior, then I think Daemons' best chance, other than ignoring him [which is really the best option] is going at him with a Balesword Prince or a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, and hope for a six on the D chart or a failed invul from Roboute.
Terminal wrote: Does Roboute has the Eternal Warrior USR, or just the Celestine-esque getting up again rule?
If he doesn't have Eternal Warrior, then I think Daemons' best chance, other than ignoring him [which is really the best option] is going at him with a Balesword Prince or a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, and hope for a six on the D chart or a failed invul from Roboute.
He does have Eternal Warrior!
He's quite the tank, but as pointed out, he's very slow.
JakeSiren wrote: Throw 90 points of Pink Horrors at it and tie it up for 3 turns. Do it twice and RG is a non-event.
I am afraid those Horrors will vanish back to the Warp due to Daemonic instability test in the 1st turn. Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.
Same as the Avatar of Khaine. Have RG try to call out the swarm lord into a challenge only to have the Swarm Lord ignore him while he gets buried in a avalanche of carnifexes.
JakeSiren wrote: Throw 90 points of Pink Horrors at it and tie it up for 3 turns. Do it twice and RG is a non-event.
I am afraid those Horrors will vanish back to the Warp due to Daemonic instability test in the 1st turn. Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.
And the pinks split into blues which surround him and prevent him from moving until dealt with. Then the blues into Brimstones. It is easy enough to surround an enemy with them. The only reason they won't split is if you roll boxcars.
So for orks it depends on what you are running. If you take the tide for instance then even after he attacks you will have more than enough attacks to finish him off at less the first time. As long as 30 boys get to attack on the charge they will kill him. Off the charge you need 40ish to swing. Otherwise if you are taking the council of waaagh then he and ghazzy can have a nice fun eternal fight of stalling each other with 3++/5+++ vs 2++
All joking aside walking the Wraith Knight over and hoping you get a 6 on a stomp would be a good way to deal with him. Tons of fire from shurkin bikes, warp spiders, ect ect. could maybe do it too but you'd need to roll sixes like a boss i think.
The skathatch Wraith Knight with its melta lances could possibly make short work of him too if your roll well enough. He's a got great rules, he'll be fun to try to kill
I brought a 1500 point goff killmob to game night last night (and won two games), and someone mentioned they had gulliman, so I challenged him just for fun. My killmob v. just gulliman.
I realize that a killmob is far from the ideal way to kill gulliman (orks don't have one, really), but it's telling that I knew I didn't have a chance.
And I didn't, turn 5 tabled, did one wound to him.
Honestly, I don't think orks have a way to kill him, with an army at his back. A stompa v. him will get just one chance to get a lucky 6 stomp before it is destroyed, and that's assuming gulliman doesn't kill a stompa at I6, which he has decent odds of doing. The D choppa also hits him in CC on 5s, just like the rest of the army.
I could get a very mobile, shooty army, I suppose, but the rest of his army could easily destroy my vehicles and pin me in place.
And I'm not sure what people are thinking of 'just ignore him' - he's pretty fast, and is almost certainly going to be in CC by turn 3. I footslog all the time and am usually in CC turn 2.
But yeah, he can breeze his way through an ork mob 5x his points cost and barely take a scratch. That's a little disheartening.
Around 90 or so leman russ battle cannons should put him down easy enough.
So if I'm playing a 13500pts apocalypse game with 9 squadrons of 10 tanks, then all I'd need would be to focus one round of firepower on him and problem solved
DoomMouse wrote: Around 90 or so leman russ battle cannons should put him down easy enough.
So if I'm playing a 13500pts apocalypse game with 9 squadrons of 10 tanks, then all I'd need would be to focus one round of firepower on him and problem solved
Better to fire the Battle Cannon at those Ultramarine Devastor Squad, Bikers, Vanguard, Assault Squad, Sternguards surrounding Guilliman. Just leave him on his own. With only 6 inches movement a turn, even he has fleet, he is not likely to get into combat with your tanks till Turn 3. His man around him, however, under his awesome buffs, Will become quite scary.
JakeSiren wrote: Throw 90 points of Pink Horrors at it and tie it up for 3 turns. Do it twice and RG is a non-event.
I am afraid those Horrors will vanish back to the Warp due to Daemonic instability test in the 1st turn. Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.
And the pinks split into blues which surround him and prevent him from moving until dealt with. Then the blues into Brimstones. It is easy enough to surround an enemy with them. The only reason they won't split is if you roll boxcars.
I think the "split" rule excluded those unit being removed due to Daemonic instability test.
I play Chaos Marines so my main answer is summon and surround with Daemonettes.
Corsairs with a Voidweaver have a hilarious time though, especially if they roll the Aethermancy power that lets them send an enemy unit back into Ongoing Reserve.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: 50 conscripts and a priest. 175pts to be able to tarpit him the whole game.
He can hit every model within 1" of him at the same time, as a MC based guy, and conscripts being about 2 deep at 1", that's a pretty huge amount of dead guardsmen. I would see tarpitting him for turn or 2, but you'll either be out of combat, or out of men in not very long
Hmmm that is a problem. Let me consult Tactica Imperialis. *Opens book to page 1, chapter 1, first sentence* "If in doubt, throw more men at it"
Of course! 2x mobs of 50 conscripts with Priests
Joking aside I would still consider conscripts, just charge him in a 'column' formation so it would take a few turns for everyone to funnel in via pile in (and have the priest at the very very back to avoid precision strike for as long as possible)
JakeSiren wrote: Throw 90 points of Pink Horrors at it and tie it up for 3 turns. Do it twice and RG is a non-event.
I am afraid those Horrors will vanish back to the Warp due to Daemonic instability test in the 1st turn. Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.
And the pinks split into blues which surround him and prevent him from moving until dealt with. Then the blues into Brimstones. It is easy enough to surround an enemy with them. The only reason they won't split is if you roll boxcars.
I think the "split" rule excluded those unit being removed due to Daemonic instability test.
I know the wording around it was originally unclear, but they FAQ'd it in Wrath of Mangus so that only box cars prevents splitting.
FAQ wrote:
Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if
they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire
unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.
Honestly, I did some for fun rolling, and Gulliman actually has decent odds of destroying a fresh stompa before it can swing or stomp. If a stompa were wounded by supporting fire from gulliman's army, it wouldn't have a chance.
If the stompa didn't get lucky 6s with its str D hits or stomp (melee hits on 5s, to boot), the stompa will NOT survive a second round of gulliman swinging.
But the answer to "how do orks kill gulliman" is "no".
maybe, MAYBE, if I brought a mind-boggling amount of lootas and flash gits, and no one shot at them, they might eventually be able to bring him down.
But as orks, it's almost impossible to kill something like riptides (or gulliman) at range, and gulliman instapawns anything in the ork codex many times over in CC.
So........yeah, just kind of no.
How about 13 5+ repair rolls a turn? So add back 4 HP per Ork Turn on average?
Reading a lot about how people say he is slow and won't make combat till turn three or four but he does gain infiltrate due to his Warlord traits. Therefore, if he is going first he starts 18" from you, moves 6", Runs with fleet another 4-5" so is essentially 7" from your deployment zone turn one. With his movement he is pretty much on your line turn 2. He is not a one man army so all his marines, grav cents, etc are there too killing our stuff. I feel ignoring him is a good option for some armies like eldar as you can out manuver. But Tau who sit on a gun line are going to need to be prepared for a turn 2 charge on a dawn of war, or vanguard set up.
But yeah, he can breeze his way through an ork mob 5x his points cost and barely take a scratch. That's a little disheartening.
Love the photo and yes, it's disheartening in a way but... it's also so wonderfully true to the fluff. As if a primarch would give a crap about those Orks! A normal space marine tac squad could kill all them. (In Black Library)
Does he have any protection against leadership lowering effects?
I've killed Wraithknights before with a combination of Mask of Sorrows, armour of misery and Freakish skeptical lowering their leadership down to 5 then casting the Harlequin power Mirror of Minds. We roll off and add our respective leaderships, if we draw or I win he takes a wound and we roll again until either he wins or he dies. With the Primarch being Ld 10 and the Shadowseer being leadership 10, it's impossible for him to win so unless the opponent wants to roll until he dies you'd just remove him.
Not sure how stubborn might effect this, as it's not a leadership test in the conventional sense.
So with a single lasgun, assuming rapid fire and FRFSRF, a normal guardsman will hit 1.5 times. Girlyman is T6 so you're wounding on 6's, meaning you wound .25 times. Then he gets his 2+ save, so you're down to 0.04166 wounds. Then his FNP kicks in and knocks it down to 0.02777 wounds. You would need 216 lasguns all using FRFSRF within rapid fire range, which equals 648 shots to take him down once. I mean, theoretically if you can get 72 guardsmen into rapidfire range and get off FRFSRF on all of them then, yes, you can kill him with lasguns.
Also, for admech, as people have said before, grav cents. The fact that a min squad of them put out 18 grav shots at BS3 with a 1-2 rerollable due to canticles (on average) for only 165 points is ridiculous.
With orks I wouldn't even try. I'd just bog him down with a bunch of boyz and do my best to ignore him.
So with a single lasgun, assuming rapid fire and FRFSRF, a normal guardsman will hit 1.5 times. Girlyman is T6 so you're wounding on 6's, meaning you wound .25 times. Then he gets his 2+ save, so you're down to 0.04166 wounds. Then his FNP kicks in and knocks it down to 0.02777 wounds. You would need 216 lasguns all using FRFSRF within rapid fire range, which equals 648 shots to take him down once. I mean, theoretically if you can get 72 guardsmen into rapidfire range and get off FRFSRF on all of them then, yes, you can kill him with lasguns.
.
Hope the beer helped. as for a massed bodies IG, that is not necessarily unreasonable to achieve in 1 or 2 turns... and fits the IG standard orders, drown that damned primarch in our blood!
JakeSiren wrote: Throw 90 points of Pink Horrors at it and tie it up for 3 turns. Do it twice and RG is a non-event.
I am afraid those Horrors will vanish back to the Warp due to Daemonic instability test in the 1st turn. Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.
And the pinks split into blues which surround him and prevent him from moving until dealt with. Then the blues into Brimstones. It is easy enough to surround an enemy with them. The only reason they won't split is if you roll boxcars.
I think the "split" rule excluded those unit being removed due to Daemonic instability test.
I know the wording around it was originally unclear, but they FAQ'd it in Wrath of Mangus so that only box cars prevents splitting.
FAQ wrote:
Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if
they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire
unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.
Edit: fixed formatting
Well, yes, but this doesn't mean that Horrors who are removed due to Daemonic instability get to Split. If the horror is removed due to instability, that horror does not get to Split.
The FAQ is simply pointing out that if the unit is removed due to Instability, then the horrors who died due to taking wounds earlier in the combat phase still won't get to Split. So if Guilliman can kill 5 or 6 Horrors that will split, then cause an instability test that kills 6 or 7 more, he only has to deal with a fraction as many horrors as he would have otherwise.
My armies' methods for dealing with the Primarch:
Dark Angels: Ravenwing can probably kite him reasonably well, and their BS2 overwatch with plasma/grav weapons could be trouble for him. In a double-Demicompany Lion's Blade, that overwatch is BS4, so basically a second shooting phase, so most melee stuff is going to have a tough time of it. If I really need RG dead, I could fly a Dark Talon over and hit him with the Rift Cannon (small blast becomes a Vortex if doubles is rolled for scatter distance).
Khorne Daemonkin: The D-thirster is probably the best bet, although a Chaos Knight could get lucky. If the Knight manages to survive long enough to swing, RG is dead since Foe-reaper Chainsword gets +1 on the D table. Then again, perhaps not as the Knight will need 5's to hit. I'd really have to bring Be'lakor or something for some psychic buffs like Invis, though.
Tau: Stormsurge with D missiles is probably the best tool my Tau have for killing something like RG. A Firebase Support Cadre with full units of Broadsides might have a decent chance of putting at least a couple of wounds on him thanks to Monster Hunter. For this reason, Puretide chip is probably a good choice as well.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Well, I can always do the easy thing. 30 Termagants and a Tervigon should tarpit him for the game. Just can't double out and I am fine.
His Whirling Flamer attack might make that a little difficult to pull off.
Freddy Kruger wrote: Canoptek harvest formation. Spider chooses reanimation protocols as it's ability. Take 6+ Wraiths, charge into him. Tarot him till the end of time.
If you want to tarpit with Necrons, best leave it to the pros:
• Orikan-Star (Shield-Lychguard with Orikan and a Decurion Overlord carrying a ResOrb attached)
With 3++ (rerolling 1s) and 4+++ (rerolling 1s) combined with an emergency ResOrb, ain't nobody gonna be killing anybody in that combat, so the rest of your army is free to do as they please without worry of papa rowboat.
12 Killa Kanz 3 Deff Dreads 2 Gorkanaughts and a Stompa
We'll take him down with the massive weight of our scrap
Our smog will blot out the sun
And at the end of the fight Guiliman will crawl out from under all the gubbinz, and the Orkz's disbelief that Roboute is still alive will cause the Ork Psychic field to squash him.
cranect wrote: So for orks it depends on what you are running. If you take the tide for instance then even after he attacks you will have more than enough attacks to finish him off at less the first time. As long as 30 boys get to attack on the charge they will kill him. Off the charge you need 40ish to swing. Otherwise if you are taking the council of waaagh then he and ghazzy can have a nice fun eternal fight of stalling each other with 3++/5+++ vs 2++
Note that if you bunch up, he's going to chop lots of boyz down before those swing. Insta killing nobz and non-biker characters in the process.
Anywayz, you need 432 attacks from boyz to kill him once (he doesn't have fnp, does he?) - That's more than twice his point cost in boyz if they charge and manage to strike at the same time and RG never strikes back for some reason. Or 43+ pk attacks. That's ~11 pk nobz on the charge - that would also cost more than RG and would have to live through his area s10 ap1 hits.
Greentide is definitely not an answer. I'd say the opposite - RG is a good counter for GT. They can't run, they can't reliably kill him in time - even if they're very lucky, he can rise up. He can easilly tie up 1000 pts of orks.
You have better chances just tankshocking him endlessly with your trukks, blocking the way and hoping for him to eventually make a frustrated death or glory swing and getting crunched.
Ghazzy and a couple meganobz could probably do it as long as he doesn't get a 6. If he does, Ghazstar is screwed. That'd be approximately 9 manz and Ghaz. Once again, twice as expensive as Girlyman. And He has better chances still.
Celestine, Girlyman, Cawl - are all extremely durable for the points. There's just no reason to even consider killing them a viable tactics when you don't have grav, d or stomps.
Freddy Kruger wrote: Canoptek harvest formation. Spider chooses reanimation protocols as it's ability. Take 6+ Wraiths, charge into him. Tarot him till the end of time.
If you want to tarpit with Necrons, best leave it to the pros:
• Orikan-Star (Shield-Lychguard with Orikan and a Decurion Overlord carrying a ResOrb attached)
With 3++ (rerolling 1s) and 4+++ (rerolling 1s) combined with an emergency ResOrb, ain't nobody gonna be killing anybody in that combat, so the rest of your army is free to do as they please without worry of papa rowboat.
You don't get those Reanimation rolls against D attacks, which Guilliman is very capable of putting out. Also: How much does that tarpit cost, exactly? Because it sounds like that's pretty darn costly. The most barebones version I can get using what you describe is 5 shield lynchguard, Orikan, and the Overlord with zero other wargear outside of the ResOrb still costs 375 points. So, under ideal circumstances you're still spending more points than Guilliman for the weakest version of a tarpit that will hold him up for a while, but could still fail a Leadership test or eventually get sweeped after 4 or 5 turns of combat - About half the game.
cranect wrote: So for orks it depends on what you are running. If you take the tide for instance then even after he attacks you will have more than enough attacks to finish him off at less the first time. As long as 30 boys get to attack on the charge they will kill him. Off the charge you need 40ish to swing. Otherwise if you are taking the council of waaagh then he and ghazzy can have a nice fun eternal fight of stalling each other with 3++/5+++ vs 2++
Note that if you bunch up, he's going to chop lots of boyz down before those swing. Insta killing nobz and non-biker characters in the process.
Anywayz, you need 432 attacks from boyz to kill him once (he doesn't have fnp, does he?) - That's more than twice his point cost in boyz if they charge and manage to strike at the same time and RG never strikes back for some reason. Or 43+ pk attacks. That's ~11 pk nobz that would also cost more than RG and would have to live through his area s10 ap1 hits.
Greentide is definitely not an answer. I'd say the opposite - RG is a good counter for GT. They can't run, they can't reliably kill him in time - even if they're very lucky, he can rise up. He can easilly tie up 1000 pts of orks.
You have better chances just tankshocking him endlessly with your trukks, blocking the way and hoping for him to eventually make a frustrated death or glory swing and getting crunched.
Ghazzy and a couple meganobz could probably do it IF he doesn't get a 6. If he does, Ghazstar is screwed.
Celestine, Girlyman, Cawl - are all extremely durable for the points. There's just no reason to even consider killing them a viable tactics when you don't have grav, d or stomps.
Here's a modest proposal for that Ghazzystar: Add in a bunch of Meks. A trukkload of them. Challenge with one of the Meks, instead of using Ghazkull.
Once the mek in the challenge is dead, you can put your regular wounds on Ghazkull, but Look Out, Sir! all the D-strength hits. Unless you get really unlucky and fail that 2+ roll the one time he gets a '6' on the D table, you should be able to tank him out pretty successfully.
Here's a modest proposal for that Ghazzystar: Add in a bunch of Meks. A trukkload of them. Challenge with one of the Meks, instead of using Ghazkull.
Ghaz supplement - you got to accept challenges with your warlord. Cause of Balance.
Also, you can't join anything else to the ghazstar - unless you're taking codex Ghaz without eternal waaagh and 2++. Which is pretty pointless cause dls megaboss is better.
Here's a modest proposal for that Ghazzystar: Add in a bunch of Meks. A trukkload of them. Challenge with one of the Meks, instead of using Ghazkull.
Ghaz supplement - you got to accept challenges with your warlord. Cause of Balance.
Also, you can't join anything else to the ghazstar - unless you're taking codex Ghaz without eternal waaagh and 2++. Which is pretty pointless cause dls megaboss is better.
I exalt a lot of koooaei's posts and never feel like it really matters
Like he said, Ghazzystar is ok until Girlyman rolls a 6.. but why fight him when Orkz should just feed him trash anyway?
Rismonite wrote: but why fight him when Orkz should just feed him trash anyway?
Exactly. Our best chance of killing him is waiting till he gets tired of exploding a 35 pt trukk every turn and goes back to stazis sleep. He's a slow mc with a huge base that can't join squads or ride transports. His only method of quick transportation is via earth magic that'd eat a ton of warpcharges. He's great at dealing with ork deathstars. If you choose to feed them to him. Just don't.
Here's a modest proposal for that Ghazzystar: Add in a bunch of Meks. A trukkload of them. Challenge with one of the Meks, instead of using Ghazkull.
Ghaz supplement - you got to accept challenges with your warlord. Cause of Balance.
Also, you can't join anything else to the ghazstar - unless you're taking codex Ghaz without eternal waaagh and 2++. Which is pretty pointless cause dls megaboss is better.
Sorry, I wasn't referring to the formation in the Ghazkull supplement. I simply meant a deathstary squad that has Ghazkull in it, like 5-8 Bully Boyz plus Ghazkull and a Warboss with DLS - Ghazzy doesn't get a 2++ invuln every turn, but he still gets it for two full rounds of combat, which is all you're going to need to finish off Guilliman anyways.
BS4 Twin-linked, so basically 3 D shots per turn, unless he can cross 48" in 2 turns statistically he gonna get hit with 6+ wounds no saves hit.
And for the 1/9 chance of twin-link missing i can counteract with all non-6 D hits.
Or throw Asurmen at him, same 3+ save and small chance of removing him. Maybe even dire avenger exarch.
Rismonite wrote: but why fight him when Orkz should just feed him trash anyway?
Exactly. Our best chance of killing him is waiting till he gets tired of exploding a 35 pt trukk every turn and goes back to stazis sleep. He's a slow mc with a huge base that can't join squads or ride transports. His only method of quick transportation is via earth magic that'd eat a ton of warpcharges. He's great at dealing with ork deathstars. If you choose to feed them to him. Just don't.
I'm not sure why people call him slow. He's got move through cover and fleet, and adds 1" to run and charges.
I mean, he's not an eldar jetbike, but he's not exactly a meganob, either. He's easily faster than wulven, who aren't considered a 'slow' unit. He's going to be across the table and destroying stuff by, at most, turn 3. It's not like you can just ignore him and hope he goes away.
Maybe if you have an all-mechanized army, you can be mobile enough to avoid him, but he's also going to have an army to support him by popping vehicles and letting him clean up after.
JakeSiren wrote: Throw 90 points of Pink Horrors at it and tie it up for 3 turns. Do it twice and RG is a non-event.
I am afraid those Horrors will vanish back to the Warp due to Daemonic instability test in the 1st turn. Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.
And the pinks split into blues which surround him and prevent him from moving until dealt with. Then the blues into Brimstones. It is easy enough to surround an enemy with them. The only reason they won't split is if you roll boxcars.
I think the "split" rule excluded those unit being removed due to Daemonic instability test.
I know the wording around it was originally unclear, but they FAQ'd it in Wrath of Mangus so that only box cars prevents splitting.
FAQ wrote:
Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if
they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire
unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.
Edit: fixed formatting
Well, yes, but this doesn't mean that Horrors who are removed due to Daemonic instability get to Split. If the horror is removed due to instability, that horror does not get to Split.
The FAQ is simply pointing out that if the unit is removed due to Instability, then the horrors who died due to taking wounds earlier in the combat phase still won't get to Split. So if Guilliman can kill 5 or 6 Horrors that will split, then cause an instability test that kills 6 or 7 more, he only has to deal with a fraction as many horrors as he would have otherwise.
Just wondering where in the rule it says that horrors removed due to instability don't get to split regardless of the instability result? At the start of the split rule it says "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualties, the slain Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of the phase". There are no restrictions on splitting if the casualties are caused by daemonic instability or other means.
Rismonite wrote: but why fight him when Orkz should just feed him trash anyway?
Exactly. Our best chance of killing him is waiting till he gets tired of exploding a 35 pt trukk every turn and goes back to stazis sleep. He's a slow mc with a huge base that can't join squads or ride transports. His only method of quick transportation is via earth magic that'd eat a ton of warpcharges. He's great at dealing with ork deathstars. If you choose to feed them to him. Just don't.
I'm not sure why people call him slow. He's got move through cover and fleet, and adds 1" to run and charges.
I mean, he's not an eldar jetbike, but he's not exactly a meganob, either. He's easily faster than wulven, who aren't considered a 'slow' unit. He's going to be across the table and destroying stuff by, at most, turn 3. It's not like you can just ignore him and hope he goes away.
Maybe if you have an all-mechanized army, you can be mobile enough to avoid him, but he's also going to have an army to support him by popping vehicles and letting him clean up after.
BS4 Twin-linked, so basically 3 D shots per turn, unless he can cross 48" in 2 turns statistically he gonna get hit with 6+ wounds no saves hit.
And for the 1/9 chance of twin-link missing i can counteract with all non-6 D hits.
Or throw Asurmen at him, same 3+ save and small chance of removing him. Maybe even dire avenger exarch.
Eldar should never have problem fighting Guilliman, simple solution is,using 2 units of 5 D cannon Wraith Guard which in total is 50pts lower than the Primarch, approach from different angle, 10 StrD shots will on average get a "6s" result and remove him. Even if he get back up by 50/50 chance, he is average with 2 wounds back, then he is only able to charge and kill one of your WG units, then next turn your other WG unit could have 5 D shots which would result around 1 wound go through his 3++, then D3 wounds him out.
Bottom line could be get a WK and spam Scatter Bikes, put objectives as far away from each other as possible, then you can simply Ignore Guilliman because he likely only able to kill two units of Scatbike in 5 turns and that's it. He can only helplessly watch his man being killed by tons of S6 shots and that WK jump around him and charge and kill his man.
JakeSiren wrote: Throw 90 points of Pink Horrors at it and tie it up for 3 turns. Do it twice and RG is a non-event.
I am afraid those Horrors will vanish back to the Warp due to Daemonic instability test in the 1st turn. Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.
And the pinks split into blues which surround him and prevent him from moving until dealt with. Then the blues into Brimstones. It is easy enough to surround an enemy with them. The only reason they won't split is if you roll boxcars.
I think the "split" rule excluded those unit being removed due to Daemonic instability test.
I know the wording around it was originally unclear, but they FAQ'd it in Wrath of Mangus so that only box cars prevents splitting.
FAQ wrote:
Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if
they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire
unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.
Edit: fixed formatting
Well, yes, but this doesn't mean that Horrors who are removed due to Daemonic instability get to Split. If the horror is removed due to instability, that horror does not get to Split.
The FAQ is simply pointing out that if the unit is removed due to Instability, then the horrors who died due to taking wounds earlier in the combat phase still won't get to Split. So if Guilliman can kill 5 or 6 Horrors that will split, then cause an instability test that kills 6 or 7 more, he only has to deal with a fraction as many horrors as he would have otherwise.
Just wondering where in the rule it says that horrors removed due to instability don't get to split regardless of the instability result? At the start of the split rule it says "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualties, the slain Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of the phase". There are no restrictions on splitting if the casualties are caused by daemonic instability or other means.
Sorry, I misremembered. What I meant to say was that if the unit is removed by Daemonic Instability, it does not get to split - It doesn't have to be box cars. If the unit is taken off the table by Instability, then it cannot split - Even if it's not boxcars, rolling (for example) a '10' when you're at -8 Leadership and have 3 models left will still remove the entire unit from the table.
Honestly, I did some for fun rolling, and Gulliman actually has decent odds of destroying a fresh stompa before it can swing or stomp. If a stompa were wounded by supporting fire from gulliman's army, it wouldn't have a chance.
If the stompa didn't get lucky 6s with its str D hits or stomp (melee hits on 5s, to boot), the stompa will NOT survive a second round of gulliman swinging.
But the answer to "how do orks kill gulliman" is "no".
maybe, MAYBE, if I brought a mind-boggling amount of lootas and flash gits, and no one shot at them, they might eventually be able to bring him down.
But as orks, it's almost impossible to kill something like riptides (or gulliman) at range, and gulliman instapawns anything in the ork codex many times over in CC.
So........yeah, just kind of no.
not quite ghaz in a ghaz council in an orkurion detachment is almost impossible for guilliman to kill. It's hard to kill a WS9 model with a 2++ save 2+LoS and 8x str10ap2 atks. I've yet to see ghaz die in this setup.
Honestly, I did some for fun rolling, and Gulliman actually has decent odds of destroying a fresh stompa before it can swing or stomp. If a stompa were wounded by supporting fire from gulliman's army, it wouldn't have a chance.
If the stompa didn't get lucky 6s with its str D hits or stomp (melee hits on 5s, to boot), the stompa will NOT survive a second round of gulliman swinging.
But the answer to "how do orks kill gulliman" is "no".
maybe, MAYBE, if I brought a mind-boggling amount of lootas and flash gits, and no one shot at them, they might eventually be able to bring him down.
But as orks, it's almost impossible to kill something like riptides (or gulliman) at range, and gulliman instapawns anything in the ork codex many times over in CC.
So........yeah, just kind of no.
not quite ghaz in a ghaz council in an orkurion detachment is almost impossible for guilliman to kill. It's hard to kill a WS9 model with a 2++ save 2+LoS and 8x str10ap2 atks. I've yet to see ghaz die in this setup.
Ghaz + council + battlewagon are 850ish point though, guilliman only 350. And SM also have access to free vehicles. Any decent ork tactics about guilliman don't include the sacrifice of their best units in an eternal tarpit or killing him by shooting. Play objectives, bring a fast MSU army and make guilliman assault expendable units that block his way.
Ahriman's Exiles formation. 6 psychic shrieks from 4 models that cast on 3+, turboboost away, try again next turn. Bypasses Toughness. Downside is that they need to detach.
Guilliman is pretty decent for his point cost. But ways to deal with him:
On average, it takes 36 wounds for him to die, or 18 AP 2 wounds.
Poison is a good way to take him out - Dark Eldar with reroll to wounds is nice. Noise Marines with shred and a couple of +Strength psychic powers would work, too.(In fact, a bare minimum squad of 30 sonic blasters and a single +1 strength psychic power would be 90 shots, 60 hits, 45 wounds and he would be dead.)
That is, of course, a ton of firepower, being twice his points concentrated in a single turn. Probably better to hit everything around him. He'll never make his points back if you don't take Knights and the like.
davou wrote: If only I still hag old zogwort..... squigging Guilliman would be the best thing ever
That would make up for all of the ork army's deficiencies if they could consistently squig one unit of any type once per game. Guilliman? Slightly oversized blue-ish squig with a puffed-up face. Belakor? Very irate-looking flying squig. Wraithknight? Wierd runty squig with creepy eyes that smells strongly of cheddar. Dreadknight? Grayish squig in a little baby carrier mech. Even if Zogwort was expensive and required a bunch of useless stuff as a tax, the games would be so memorable that it'd be worth it.
Just don't give us the Zogwort rules from last edition, or make his squigging ability use his BS0 or BS2. Or make it have to bypass all of the psychic defenses that any special character has nowadays. Or make him unable to squig MC/FMC/GMC. That would suck.
Ghorros wrote: Guilliman is pretty decent for his point cost. But ways to deal with him:
On average, it takes 36 wounds for him to die, or 18 AP 2 wounds.
You forget he has FnP, so those numbers should be multiplied by 1.5. If you really want to take him down, use StrD weapons, which Eldar / Aeldrai, and Chaos have quite a lot choices.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: Just ignore him and stay out of his charge range. The ultimate way to defeat him.
Agreed, but don't forget to shoot the rest of his army to death, 1st priority is those unit moving fast, like bikers and Jump pack units, if you got tied up by them, you are offering Guilliman time to catch you. After that, shot those guys surrounding Guilliman, they get those awesome buff in movement and offensive, but are still vulnerable because they are still mere Space Marines.
Honestly, I did some for fun rolling, and Gulliman actually has decent odds of destroying a fresh stompa before it can swing or stomp. If a stompa were wounded by supporting fire from gulliman's army, it wouldn't have a chance.
If the stompa didn't get lucky 6s with its str D hits or stomp (melee hits on 5s, to boot), the stompa will NOT survive a second round of gulliman swinging.
But the answer to "how do orks kill gulliman" is "no".
maybe, MAYBE, if I brought a mind-boggling amount of lootas and flash gits, and no one shot at them, they might eventually be able to bring him down.
But as orks, it's almost impossible to kill something like riptides (or gulliman) at range, and gulliman instapawns anything in the ork codex many times over in CC.
So........yeah, just kind of no.
not quite ghaz in a ghaz council in an orkurion detachment is almost impossible for guilliman to kill. It's hard to kill a WS9 model with a 2++ save 2+LoS and 8x str10ap2 atks. I've yet to see ghaz die in this setup.
Ghaz + council + battlewagon are 850ish point though, guilliman only 350. And SM also have access to free vehicles. Any decent ork tactics about guilliman don't include the sacrifice of their best units in an eternal tarpit or killing him by shooting. Play objectives, bring a fast MSU army and make guilliman assault expendable units that block his way.
You don't need the battlewagon ghaz and his star can move run and charge the same turn even in mega armour with reroll on run/charge die due to ere we go.
However my typical star yes is ghaz, Maddoc, dls megaboss, warboss in mega armour, big mek in mega armour w KFF, 3 nobs (1 w bosspole) and battlewagon w killkannon for 914pts. A battlewagon w 4++ can shooting is annoying and hard to kill and once ghaz star debarks and charges the wagon is still annoying running around shooting str7ap3 large blasts plus any rokkits. Girly man than has to deal w ~20x str 10/9 ap2 mostly rerollable ws7-9 atks on the charge w a couple of 2+los bodies all with 5+ fnp. It's annoying hard to kill without lucky stomp. I don't think guilliman will last to the end of turn 2. You are right it's overkill point wise however it's really the only ork way to take him down.
I like the idea of charging a column of cheap tarpit bodies so they aren't getting into his swing range at the same time. Even if they do, a unit of 30 termagants is going to keep him locked in for a while. Although perhaps a better idea is just positioning gaunts around him to block his movement, keeping more valuable units away from him, killing the rest of the army etc.
Or hoping the meta comes up with better counters so that people don't take him in lists...
I suspect he won't be super popular. His speed is a big problem for such an expensive investment. He's basically a very expensive distraction Carnifex.
Squad of 20 sisters with Uriah singing away his rerolling 5++ for the squad and tie him up....then again, that's 350-odd points that's could be better used doing something else.
In the sweetest ever moment of poetic justice in the 40k universe, Roboute Guilliman, Imperial Primarch, cannot harm the Avatar of Khaine.
We've checked it out over on The Dark City. As his close combat weapon has 'Soul Blaze', the Avatar ignores any attacks made by it. He has no other close combat weapons to attack with a different profile. Nowhere in the rules does it state that you can elect to attack in close combat without using a weapon.
Grey Templar wrote: I look forward to some Smurf player coming here on Dakka and whining about how Gulliman got annihilated by an Avatar.
Space Marines have a tons of choices to take down Avater of Khaine. Any Ultramarine let the Avater charged into Guilliman is not a good player.
On the other hand, Eldar player should have thousands of method to fight against Guilliman. They should be the faction that can just laugh at a T6 walking melee MC.
You don't need the battlewagon ghaz and his star can move run and charge the same turn even in mega armour with reroll on run/charge die due to ere we go.
However my typical star yes is ghaz, Maddoc, dls megaboss, warboss in mega armour, big mek in mega armour w KFF, 3 nobs (1 w bosspole) and battlewagon w killkannon for 914pts. A battlewagon w 4++ can shooting is annoying and hard to kill and once ghaz star debarks and charges the wagon is still annoying running around shooting str7ap3 large blasts plus any rokkits. Girly man than has to deal w ~20x str 10/9 ap2 mostly rerollable ws7-9 atks on the charge w a couple of 2+los bodies all with 5+ fnp. It's annoying hard to kill without lucky stomp. I don't think guilliman will last to the end of turn 2. You are right it's overkill point wise however it's really the only ork way to take him down.
Ok without the BW the council is 700-750 points, which twice guilliman's cost anyway. And the council may take all the SM firepower in the world before reaching guilliman if they go on foot. Orks don't need to take him down, just play objecitves and kill the rest of the SM army, force guilliman to assault expendable units that block his way.
The Avatar won't annihilate Guilliman as the Avatar will struggle massively to land a wound on him, but as Guilliman can't hurt the Avatar the Avatar is guaranteed to win without injury after a very, very long battle.
Unless Rowboat wants to use Our Weapons are Useless and risk being swept... There are few other times where such a rule is so apt!
(And I had thought that OWAU forced units to flee if they actually could not harm the enemy in CC, but maybe that's an older edition. Still, forcing Gulliman to flee would be hilarious)
I actually faced Guilliman in my first game yesterday and he sure knows how to make a mighty entrance.
My list was khorne daemonkin with 2x D-Thirster + Belakor
Guilliman was supporting an Imperial Guard army.
I cast invisibility on one of my D-Thirster and send him tank hunting a foot away from Guilliman. The entire army shoots at him and does 1 wound.
Guilliman charges at the invisible thrister, rolls his attacks, misses but gets some re-rolls of 1s and hits with the only thing he can hit with...a 6.
Then rolls to wound and lands another 6.
Invisible D-Thirster OWNED!
My jaw dropped...
a turn later I assault Guilliman with the second D-Thirster and a maulerfiend (lasher tendrils)
Guilliman rolls his attacks normally minus 2 attacks of course. And hits with most but gets no 1s, deals 2 wounds ot the D-Thirster.
D-Thirster swings with 9 attacks on the charge (warlord trait) smashes the primarch to hell and back with 2 6s to wound.
Guilliman fails his 4+ WELL BE BACK roll and I'm just glad I don't have to fight that guy again.
KommissarKiln wrote: Unless Rowboat wants to use Our Weapons are Useless and risk being swept... There are few other times where such a rule is so apt!
(And I had thought that OWAU forced units to flee if they actually could not harm the enemy in CC, but maybe that's an older edition. Still, forcing Gulliman to flee would be hilarious)
Guilliman charges at the invisible thrister, rolls his attacks, misses but gets some re-rolls of 1s and hits with the only thing he can hit with...a 6.
Then rolls to wound and lands another 6.
Invisible D-Thirster OWNED!
He than has to roll another d6 on the d-table. So, unless he rolls another 6, d-thirster is fine.
Guilliman charges at the invisible thrister, rolls his attacks, misses but gets some re-rolls of 1s and hits with the only thing he can hit with...a 6.
Then rolls to wound and lands another 6.
Invisible D-Thirster OWNED!
He than has to roll another d6 on the d-table. So, unless he rolls another 6, d-thirster is fine.
Read again bro he rolled a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound. No further 6s needed.
KommissarKiln wrote: Unless Rowboat wants to use Our Weapons are Useless and risk being swept... There are few other times where such a rule is so apt!
(And I had thought that OWAU forced units to flee if they actually could not harm the enemy in CC, but maybe that's an older edition. Still, forcing Gulliman to flee would be hilarious)
Guilliman can´t get swept as he has TSKNF. But needs to lose combat first.
Guilliman charges at the invisible thrister, rolls his attacks, misses but gets some re-rolls of 1s and hits with the only thing he can hit with...a 6.
Then rolls to wound and lands another 6.
Invisible D-Thirster OWNED!
He than has to roll another d6 on the d-table. So, unless he rolls another 6, d-thirster is fine.
Read again bro he rolled a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound. No further 6s needed.
I believe the assumption was the D-thirster is T6 and has more than 3 wounds. I don't know of any place that uses the natural D-str table of 6+D6 wounds. If that is the case, no more sixes are necessary, but most places two 6s on the D table would be the optimal number.
A lot of players, in ITC, NOVA, locals, or otherwise, simply don't use the full D-str table as it is absurd. It's almost as crazy as a 6 on the stomp table, but it removes almost every Super Heavies as well. Haha.
Guilliman charges at the invisible thrister, rolls his attacks, misses but gets some re-rolls of 1s and hits with the only thing he can hit with...a 6.
Then rolls to wound and lands another 6.
Invisible D-Thirster OWNED!
He than has to roll another d6 on the d-table. So, unless he rolls another 6, d-thirster is fine.
Read again bro he rolled a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound. No further 6s needed.
I believe the assumption was the D-thirster is T6 and has more than 3 wounds. I don't know of any place that uses the natural D-str table of 6+D6 wounds. If that is the case, no more sixes are necessary, but most places two 6s on the D table would be the optimal number.
A lot of players, in ITC, NOVA, locals, or otherwise, simply don't use the full D-str table as it is absurd. It's almost as crazy as a 6 on the stomp table, but it removes almost every Super Heavies as well. Haha.
Our FLGS usings the table in the book for both friendly games and league games. What else would we use?
Saythings wrote: A lot of players, in ITC, NOVA, locals, or otherwise, simply don't use the full D-str table as it is absurd. It's almost as crazy as a 6 on the stomp table, but it removes almost every Super Heavies as well. Haha.
The ITC only nerfs ranged StrD, NOVA nerfs it all. Quick search of Adepticon's FAQ and it looks like they have no nerf at all.
Guilliman charges at the invisible thrister, rolls his attacks, misses but gets some re-rolls of 1s and hits with the only thing he can hit with...a 6.
Then rolls to wound and lands another 6.
Invisible D-Thirster OWNED!
He than has to roll another d6 on the d-table. So, unless he rolls another 6, d-thirster is fine.
Read again bro he rolled a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound. No further 6s needed.
I believe the assumption was the D-thirster is T6 and has more than 3 wounds. I don't know of any place that uses the natural D-str table of 6+D6 wounds. If that is the case, no more sixes are necessary, but most places two 6s on the D table would be the optimal number.
A lot of players, in ITC, NOVA, locals, or otherwise, simply don't use the full D-str table as it is absurd. It's almost as crazy as a 6 on the stomp table, but it removes almost every Super Heavies as well. Haha.
Doesn't a 6 to-wound counts as a d-hit? In this case he also has to resolve the actual result on the d-table. And i believe it doesn't state that a 6 to-wound counts as a 6 on the d-table. It's just a d-hit.
As i see it.
To-hit -> To-wound -> If 6 than a roll on d-table.
If you hit with a Destroyer weapon then you immediately roll on the Destroyer Table there is no 'to wound' roll. That's the whole point of Destroyer weapons.
I didn't know some tournaments nerfed D strength weapons that's a bit lame. The game won't break by allowing full str D it infact keeps deathstars in check.
I had no idea so many places used the full StrD. That's pretty crazy - from my perspective at least.
Also the difference between D6+6 wounds and 3 wounds (nerfed 6 result) against a deathstar is minimum. Most HQs in a deathstar have 2-3 wounds. Short of Celestine, Azrael and a Chapter Master, I can't think of too many Imperial Deathstars that care about the D chat. It's the stomps that really mess with a deathstar, and even on that note, it's only the 6 result on a stomp that does damage. Stomps still remove all the above HQs.
Guilliman charges at the invisible thrister, rolls his attacks, misses but gets some re-rolls of 1s and hits with the only thing he can hit with...a 6.
Then rolls to wound and lands another 6.
Invisible D-Thirster OWNED!
He than has to roll another d6 on the d-table. So, unless he rolls another 6, d-thirster is fine.
Read again bro he rolled a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound. No further 6s needed.
I believe the assumption was the D-thirster is T6 and has more than 3 wounds. I don't know of any place that uses the natural D-str table of 6+D6 wounds. If that is the case, no more sixes are necessary, but most places two 6s on the D table would be the optimal number.
A lot of players, in ITC, NOVA, locals, or otherwise, simply don't use the full D-str table as it is absurd. It's almost as crazy as a 6 on the stomp table, but it removes almost every Super Heavies as well. Haha.
Doesn't a 6 to-wound counts as a d-hit? In this case he also has to resolve the actual result on the d-table. And i believe it doesn't state that a 6 to-wound counts as a 6 on the d-table. It's just a d-hit.
As i see it.
To-hit -> To-wound -> If 6 than a roll on d-table.
Guilliman makes a To Hit roll. If you roll a 6 on that, then you roll on the D-table rather than rolling To Wound. So he skips a step. Just to add clarity.
Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.
