So one of my LGSs (can't call this one a FLGS these days) got in at least 10 copies of SWA, where the other store had only gotten in copies people preordered (and I didn't plan on buying at launch because I figured it wasn't a one and done). Decided Wednesday I'd get one because I want a hard copy of the rules and all the tokens, and some scouts wouldn't hurt, was just going to sell the rest. Go to this store and the owner has decided that since he knows SWA is hard to find, he's selling them for $160 instead of $130. I mean, I made back my money by selling everything I didn't want from the kit, but what do you guys think of stores that scalp products that are limited run? I mean, I at least used to think he was a legitimate business, and no legitimate business would scalp stuff, you didn't see gamestop selling nintendo switches for more than listed. This definitely helped me make up my mind about never buying from this place, I'd want him to go out of business but that would mean all his toadies would have to come to the store I like.

 kingbobbito wrote:
...and no legitimate business would scalp stuff...

...Wha...?

This is a very simple set of equations. Supply of SWA is apparently limited. Demand is apparently high. Your LGS decided that people would probably still buy it if they charged an extra $30. You are now presented with the choice to buy it from them for an extra $30 or buy it from someone else at someone else's price.

Nowhere in there is "legitimate business" a relevant or useful concept. Your power to dictate prices to any supplier extends to whether you choose to buy the plastic toys, there's no intrinsic fairness that mandates them to sell plastic toys at list price here.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
...and no legitimate business would scalp stuff...

...Wha...?

This is a very simple set of equations. Supply of SWA is apparently limited. Demand is apparently high. Your LGS decided that people would probably still buy it if they charged an extra $30. You are now presented with the choice to buy it from them for an extra $30 or buy it from someone else at someone else's price.

Nowhere in there is "legitimate business" a relevant or useful concept. Your power to dictate prices to any supplier extends to whether you choose to buy the plastic toys, there's no intrinsic fairness that mandates them to sell plastic toys at list price here.

As much as people want to believe 40k is a collector's item, even you admit they are plastic toys. At Christmas time did you see toys are us selling anything at a markup because they were having trouble getting it in stock? They sell limited edition items as well, and you don't see them deciding that when stock is low they're going to bump up the prices.

Let me guess, you think it's fine when people take bottled water into areas where disasters have hit and sell it for triple what it's worth?

(EDIT: why can't I say r?)

If you're really irritated, and I think that's fairly shifty practices, you could let GW know- there might be something in their contracts about markup if you wanted them to slap around the store.

Personally, I might. If a store is run by jerks, why not hurt their business? I've certainly written my share of criticisms in hopes that my bad experience translates to a few lost sales (retaliation) and some avoided bad experiences (helping others avoid that).

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
If you're really irritated, and I think that's fairly shifty practices, you could let GW know- there might be something in their contracts about markup if you wanted them to slap around the store.

Personally, I might. If a store is run by jerks, why not hurt their business? I've certainly written my share of criticisms in hopes that my bad experience translates to a few lost sales (retaliation) and some avoided bad experiences (helping others avoid that).

I was going to suggest the same thing actually. If you have an issue with how the product is being handled, just contact GW and see if they say it's alright.
I've heard from my local store that they can be stupidly strict on things, but I was never given any specifics about pricing.

Their store, good for them. Don't like it? Vote with your dollars.

The local game store here in Charleston which has been around forever is complete crap and sell almost everything in the store above MSRP (while not having priced listed on the items).

What do I do? I don't shop there. End of problem.

This is the first I've bought from that store in about 2 years now because of some of his business practices. He's especially well known for "ordering" models for you, requiring that you pay ahead of time, and often not getting the models in for at least a few months; the other store has your order in a week, 2 at most. I stopped shopping there after he conned me into buying the old empire starter set (no clue how old it was, but everything but knights have had new models made, and it was the old lighter, crappier plastic).

 Elbows wrote:
Their store, good for them. Don't like it? Vote with your dollars.

The local game store here in Charleston which has been around forever is complete crap and sell almost everything in the store above MSRP (while not having priced listed on the items).

What do I do? I don't shop there. End of problem.

The issue is that the OP doesn't know what scalping is, and has a poor grasp of basic economics.

I sincerely doubt that GW cares what the LGS is doing, or has anything in the stocking contract about it. They already got their money from the LGS, and while they definitely have conditions about not underselling GW's MSRP, why would they care at all if an LGS sells over MSRP?

This sort of stuff happens all the time in collectable games.

For those of you that played MTG, have any of you ever seen the From the Vaults sets sold for MSRP or close to it? The best price I ever saw was twice MSRP.

Same goes for the debacle that was Modern Masters (every year) and especially Eternal Masters.

This is why a good store is hard to find. And why if you do find one you should probably support them from time to time. There was one guy here who bought all copies of Captain Centos and tried scalping them on a local ad-site. People didn't care, and his ads are still up as of this day. I'd bet he regrets trying to scalp people like that since he's probably a few hundred deep into the hole now.

OP paid the increased price, lost all rights to criticism.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Let me guess, you think it's fine when people take bottled water into areas where disasters have hit and sell it for triple what it's worth?

Do you honestly see no difference between spiking prices on an essential item that people will literally die without, and increasing prices a bit on a luxury item to reflect its actual market price?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This sort of stuff happens all the time in collectable games.

For those of you that played MTG, have any of you ever seen the From the Vaults sets sold for MSRP or close to it? The best price I ever saw was twice MSRP.

Same goes for the debacle that was Modern Masters (every year) and especially Eternal Masters.

This is why a good store is hard to find. And why if you do find one you should probably support them from time to time. There was one guy here who bought all copies of Captain Centos and tried scalping them on a local ad-site. People didn't care, and his ads are still up as of this day. I'd bet he regrets trying to scalp people like that since he's probably a few hundred deep into the hole now.

I'm probably one of the few that can say that he is truly blessed with a good FLGS. Our 40k crowd is slow, so I get to enjoy a place where limited run boxes sit on a shelf for a long while. Ironically, to prove a point with the MTG reference, with Eternal Masters, they sold at MSRP but had a limit of 1 box a day. Good times.

Lol lucky you. I have never seen a booster of Eternal Master drop below 20 bucks. In theory you can make your money back, but when you're standing there watching someone hand over 100 bucks for 5 pack of cards, it kinda makes you second guess your hobby choices.

I mean for 100 bucks I can get a Start Collecting set. It's kind of sad when Warhammer 40k seemed like the cheaper deal.

'Legitimate' businesses set higher prices all the time. Have you never been into a convenience store?

Businesses tend to try to stick close to the recommended retail price or lower because generally not doing so just loses sales to cheaper competitors. But there are any number of reasons for a store to choose to charge more than retail... and many, particularly in regional areas, who do it as a matter of course.

A retailer choosing to increase the shelf price on an in-demand item isn't 'scalping', nor is it particularly dodgy. It might not win them friends, but they're entirely within their rights to set the price wherever they choose.

As much as people want to believe 40k is a collector's item, even you admit they are plastic toys. At Christmas time did you see toys are us selling anything at a markup because they were having trouble getting it in stock?

Actually, Christmas time last year, "hatchables" were THE toy to have and demand was very high (around my area). What usually went for around $25-30 was suddenly going for $50+ from all the toy stores.

OP pays over price, sells bits he doesn't want completely making back his money and then complains about the overprice!

Anyone else see a problem with that sequence of events?

To the OP why is it bad if the store charges a premium and not if you do?

I keep having echo in my mind "Sell for what the market will bear.".
I was impressed, I was at my FLGS and saw 10 of the boxes go out in under an hour.
They had 60 boxes, I am now wondering if I made an error not getting two.

As long as the rules make it to us mere mortals who don't have a chance in hell of getting SW:A, I'll be happy. I have to wonder if the excessive demand now has been caused by the scalpers...

Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price

Is it scummy? Yes. Is it fair to customers at the consumer level? No. But there's nothing you can do about this sort of markup short of petitioning the producer (GW) to disallow this sort of behavior. GW already bans a lot of stuff like online shopping carts and international shipping, so anything is possible. On your end, the only thing you can do is not purchase from this seller and hope everyone else does the same. That's the only way to punish him in this scenario. But realistically, plenty of people will buy it from him even at the increased price. This is why he is doing it to begin with.

Third-party stores do this all the time with high demand products. There are special boxes of Magic cards that are "supposed" to be sold for $90, but are sold for $150 in stores and then go for $200+ on eBay. It's all because the producers' supply never meets the demand, whether because their initial run was too small (video game consoles on release, GW boxed sets) or they purposefully limited runs it to make the product special or limited edition.

I think the only stores I've never seen do this are those major chains like Target, Walmart, etc. Everyone else is willing and able to set whatever prices they want.

This is because those stores generally don't carry limited edition items that often, and the ones they do are usually only limited edition in name only (as in, they go on the same production run as everyone else).

Case in point just look at the lego Technic Porsche. It's suppose to be special, but do you think Lego is going to stop production of them before it's scheduled production run?

The reason why this is so pronounced in niche hobbies (comic books, collectable card games, boxed games) is because the consumer base is so small in comparison to a mass market product that the producer doesn't want to risk making more than a handful amount (comparatively).

Take my college year for example. We had about 150 students. Of those 150, about 10-20 (so say 15) of them played MTG, and MTG is considered one of the more "popular" hobbies. 40k was even more niche, as only about 5 out of those 150 people knew about it, and only 2 played it! And my program is full of geeks and nerds! (Kind of a given, considering we were all animation students aiming for the gaming industry). By contrast, everyone in my year has played with legos at some point in their lives and owned at least one action figure that they only liked the look of (and didn't actually know where it's series is).

Note that price hikes like this was usually kept in check by competitors, especially online ones (for those that collect MTG cards, I've bet at some point you've went around comic shops looking at who had the lowest prices. And I bet 90% of them had the same price or offered to meet a competitor's price). This is why GW cracked down on them a while ago because their price wars drove sales away from GW's own stores (and that's all that should be said about that, since it's another kettle of fish). But that only applies if they know that their competitors can get more stock. If they know their competitors have no more stock, they're free to dictate their prices as, sooner or later, someone will HAVE to buy from them.

Recently GW has been getting good with customer relations on the modelling side of things, sending in a complaint/photo of botched casts used to get the reply of "Use GW kneedable epoxy" the FLGS owner told me recently about a customer had gotten a box of botched Guard in one of the paint pot kits, GW sent out an apology and a new kit.
Had you been able to prove your LGS shown/sold the kits before release they would probably be shafted for the next few limited releases. Not sure if they could or would do anything about scalping, but they do actually have Customer Service these days. Get proof and make your case, at the worst you'll probably get a letter explaining their position on the matter.

But yeah the resale value of GW products is up to the licensed reseller.. GW may well have caveats on the min/max pricing of their items..

So he may of been well within his rights to sell at a mark up, or he may be in breach of his contract.. the only way to know is to contact GW

Wait, isn't the price on the GW site an advisory price.
How is a retailer ramping up the price of anything he sells due to demand exceeding supply of the product a bad thing ?

 oldzoggy wrote:
Wait, isn't the price on the GW site an advisory price.
How is a retailer ramping up the price of anything he sells due to demand exceeding supply of the product a bad thing ?

First of all it promotes a bad image for the store..


the 2nd is that GW may actually enforce a maximum price point for their products (kinda like Apple does)
As if that retailer is the only local option to physically pick up the item, then it can reflect badly on GW as a whole (not that it is a cheap game to start with)

Meh everyone seems to be ok with it when it happens to happen to groceries, board games, furniture and other products we buy. I have even seen it happen to preconstructed magic decks and magic boosters.

Why should non essential limited edition GW stuff that sells out in minutes be an exception, when we accept it for food water and housing ? The store is not going to get a bad rep for this, op even bought the box.

Pretty sure GW has rules on pricing for retailers

 oldzoggy wrote:
Meh everyone seems to be ok with it when it happens to happen to groceries, board games, furniture and other products we buy. I have even seen it happen to preconstructed magic decks and magic boosters.

Actually most countries have laws, to regulate markets

While they don't have laws on set price, there will be laws against dropping prices too high or low in a short time span

i.e. Australia has the Trade Practices Act. which is enforced by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission

 oldzoggy wrote:
Meh everyone seems to be ok with it when it happens to happen to groceries, board games, furniture and other products we buy. I have even seen it happen to preconstructed magic decks and magic boosters.

Why should non essential limited edition GW stuff that sells out in minutes be an exception, when we accept it for food water and housing ? The store is not going to get a bad rep for this, op even bought the box.

We actually had a minor issue here in Ontario about electricity when it turns out some people outside of major city centers were literally choosing between having power (and heat in a canadian winter) and food. It's currently one of the hot topics right now and basically a lot of people are angry with our Premier and the Electric Company.

On the flip side, about two years ago (when our economy tanked and no longer became close to 1:1 with the US currency) it turns out most canadians are too polite to complain about prices, since the companies that kept their higher prices during our growth decided to raise prices "to compensate for the lower dollar" but conveniently "forgot" to lower them when we had a powerful dollar (this is not at GW, surprisingly, but at various food producers and other imported consumer goods).

So yeah, unless our lives are on the line we just silently judge them.

Munster wrote:
OP pays over price, sells bits he doesn't want completely making back his money and then complains about the overprice!

Anyone else see a problem with that sequence of events?

To the OP why is it bad if the store charges a premium and not if you do?

I was actually going to sell everything so that I'd still be down $30, i.e. the rest of the kit for $100, but when people heard he jacked the price up they were upset I had paid that much and all offered to pay more. Also, had he broken open the kits and offered me just what I wanted I would pay a premium, because he'd have trouble selling the stuff no one wants (scouts and boyz being not very popular and ebay being flooded with cheap ones). But he was simply charging more for something that had a set price attached to it and zero risk. Breaking open kits and selling them (at a premium) on ebay for people that just want, say, DV cultists, is very different to selling full box sets on ebay for more than they're worth.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The store is not going to get a bad rep for this, op even bought the box.

But he did get a bad rep for it. I mean, I had someone with me that was just picking up skitarii and warriors and paints to build kill teams and they didn't buy them, we drove to the other store. A guy from his store had talked 4 of us to go to a tournament at his store so they'd have more than the usual 4 players but after I mentioned what he did at the other store two of them said they're not going, so we're all pulling out. One of his remaining 5 was mad about the price hike and asked me for the first time ever the directions to the other store, he's thinking about coming this Friday. He might lose 20% of his remaining players over this.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Munster wrote:
OP pays over price, sells bits he doesn't want completely making back his money and then complains about the overprice!

Anyone else see a problem with that sequence of events?

To the OP why is it bad if the store charges a premium and not if you do?

I was actually going to sell everything so that I'd still be down $30, i.e. the rest of the kit for $100, but when people heard he jacked the price up they were upset I had paid that much and all offered to pay more. Also, had he broken open the kits and offered me just what I wanted I would pay a premium, because he'd have trouble selling the stuff no one wants (scouts and boyz being not very popular and ebay being flooded with cheap ones). But he was simply charging more for something that had a set price attached to it and zero risk. Breaking open kits and selling them (at a premium) on ebay for people that just want, say, DV cultists, is very different to selling full box sets on ebay for more than they're worth.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The store is not going to get a bad rep for this, op even bought the box.

But he did get a bad rep for it. I mean, I had someone with me that was just picking up skitarii and warriors and paints to build kill teams and they didn't buy them, we drove to the other store. A guy from his store had talked 4 of us to go to a tournament at his store so they'd have more than the usual 4 players but after I mentioned what he did at the other store two of them said they're not going, so we're all pulling out. One of his remaining 5 was mad about the price hike and asked me for the first time ever the directions to the other store, he's thinking about coming this Friday. He might lose 20% of his remaining players over this.

Sounds like just you could just leave it alone and he'll put himself out of business.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Meh everyone seems to be ok with it when it happens to happen to groceries, board games, furniture and other products we buy. I have even seen it happen to preconstructed magic decks and magic boosters.

Why should non essential limited edition GW stuff that sells out in minutes be an exception, when we accept it for food water and housing ? The store is not going to get a bad rep for this, op even bought the box.

But people aren't okay with it for all those things. They up a storm about it, buy less of it, and in general hate whoever is causing the problem. I don't think anyone that plays magic says "man, I'm really glad these go for triple what they're supposed to go for".

 kingbobbito wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Meh everyone seems to be ok with it when it happens to happen to groceries, board games, furniture and other products we buy. I have even seen it happen to preconstructed magic decks and magic boosters.

Why should non essential limited edition GW stuff that sells out in minutes be an exception, when we accept it for food water and housing ? The store is not going to get a bad rep for this, op even bought the box.

But people aren't okay with it for all those things. They up a storm about it, buy less of it, and in general hate whoever is causing the problem. I don't think anyone that plays magic says "man, I'm really glad these go for triple what they're supposed to go for".

I...actually do say that (once verbatim), but that's because I apparently have some kind of cosmic good luck where the cards I bought for cheap ends up rising in price like there's no tomorrow. Like once I bought an Emrakul the Aeon's Torn for 5 bucks because the store owner said that the set just went out of rotation and no one in their sane mind would play it in Extended or Legacy due to it's insane cost.

Then Modern happened and the damn thing is now 50 bucks. It also doesn't help that on that same day I pulled a second Emrakul after I bought some packs as well (for 3 bucks each). Said Store Owner still remembers me (and not in a favourable way, although less now that I've spent a decent chunk of money there).

 kingbobbito wrote:
something that had a set price attached to it

Oddly, I don't see anyone complaining when stores offer to sell that same thing-with-a-set-price-attached at less than MSRP. It's almost like the issue here is customers who consider it a moral right to get cheap stuff, not respect for MSRP...

 kingbobbito wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
...and no legitimate business would scalp stuff...

...Wha...?

This is a very simple set of equations. Supply of SWA is apparently limited. Demand is apparently high. Your LGS decided that people would probably still buy it if they charged an extra $30. You are now presented with the choice to buy it from them for an extra $30 or buy it from someone else at someone else's price.

Nowhere in there is "legitimate business" a relevant or useful concept. Your power to dictate prices to any supplier extends to whether you choose to buy the plastic toys, there's no intrinsic fairness that mandates them to sell plastic toys at list price here.

As much as people want to believe 40k is a collector's item, even you admit they are plastic toys. At Christmas time did you see toys are us selling anything at a markup because they were having trouble getting it in stock? They sell limited edition items as well, and you don't see them deciding that when stock is low they're going to bump up the prices.

Let me guess, you think it's fine when people take bottled water into areas where disasters have hit and sell it for triple what it's worth?

(EDIT: why can't I say r?)

actually Toys R' Us are notorious for marking up their prices, especially on things like LEGO and such, go ahead check their LEGO prices, then check those prices against the LEGO online store or such, you will see a considerable mark up on TRU prices.

Going to subject specific shops generally means paying higher prices.
I rarely shop for art supplies in the local art supply store, I get most of what I need from my local Newsagent at close to half the price, twice a year I grit my teeth and restock my watercolour paints. How that place is always crowded is anyone's guess, "struggling artists" who don't shop about would be mine.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Going to subject specific shops generally means paying higher prices.
I rarely shop for art supplies in the local art supply store, I get most of what I need from my local Newsagent at close to half the price, twice a year I grit my teeth and restock my watercolour paints. How that place is always crowded is anyone's guess, "struggling artists" who don't shop about would be mine.

I go to Michael's or Aaron Brothers armed with 50% off coupons for my art supply buying.

Asterios wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Going to subject specific shops generally means paying higher prices.
I rarely shop for art supplies in the local art supply store, I get most of what I need from my local Newsagent at close to half the price, twice a year I grit my teeth and restock my watercolour paints. How that place is always crowded is anyone's guess, "struggling artists" who don't shop about would be mine.

I go to Michael's or Aaron Brothers armed with 50% off coupons for my art supply buying.

Is that how they do it?
By that logic I'm paying a bit more than the people who usually shop at these places - you might be on to something with that.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Going to subject specific shops generally means paying higher prices.
I rarely shop for art supplies in the local art supply store, I get most of what I need from my local Newsagent at close to half the price, twice a year I grit my teeth and restock my watercolour paints. How that place is always crowded is anyone's guess, "struggling artists" who don't shop about would be mine.

I go to Michael's or Aaron Brothers armed with 50% off coupons for my art supply buying.

Is that how they do it?
By that logic I'm paying a bit more than the people who usually shop at these places - you might be on to something with that.

yeah go to their web sites, they usually have up to 70% off sales or have coupons for anywhere from 40-60% off an item, its a sales gimmick charge a lot for an item and then offer coupons and it makes me people think they are getting a steal when in actuality the coupon price is decent, but not the steal people think it is.

Asterios wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Going to subject specific shops generally means paying higher prices.
I rarely shop for art supplies in the local art supply store, I get most of what I need from my local Newsagent at close to half the price, twice a year I grit my teeth and restock my watercolour paints. How that place is always crowded is anyone's guess, "struggling artists" who don't shop about would be mine.

I go to Michael's or Aaron Brothers armed with 50% off coupons for my art supply buying.

Is that how they do it?
By that logic I'm paying a bit more than the people who usually shop at these places - you might be on to something with that.

yeah go to their web sites, they usually have up to 70% off sales or have coupons for anywhere from 40-60% off an item, its a sales gimmick charge a lot for an item and then offer coupons and it makes me people think they are getting a steal when in actuality the coupon price is decent, but not the steal people think it is.

Thanks for the hot tip, neither of those companies exists nearby but I'll check for my local to see if they do it.

Dunno about across the pond there, but Michaels here and some art stores also offer an additional 10% off for students or teachers so long as you have a School ID you can provide them with. It's usable in combination with other discounts here. Ask about it, 10% doesn't sound like much but it can add up when you're buying stacks of special paper.

Stop shopping at Tims dude. You keep making threads about his store. Just stop going there

Hmm, my FLGS has 4 of the 5 copies it received still up for sale. It just wasn't a game system most of us cared about.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Dunno about across the pond there, but Michaels here and some art stores also offer an additional 10% off for students or teachers so long as you have a School ID you can provide them with. It's usable in combination with other discounts here. Ask about it, 10% doesn't sound like much but it can add up when you're buying stacks of special paper.

Website says they have the 10% student discount but nothing about 50% coupons. You're right though, never hurts to ask.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
...and no legitimate business would scalp stuff...

...Wha...?

This is a very simple set of equations. Supply of SWA is apparently limited. Demand is apparently high. Your LGS decided that people would probably still buy it if they charged an extra $30. You are now presented with the choice to buy it from them for an extra $30 or buy it from someone else at someone else's price.

Nowhere in there is "legitimate business" a relevant or useful concept. Your power to dictate prices to any supplier extends to whether you choose to buy the plastic toys, there's no intrinsic fairness that mandates them to sell plastic toys at list price here.

As much as people want to believe 40k is a collector's item, even you admit they are plastic toys. At Christmas time did you see toys are us selling anything at a markup because they were having trouble getting it in stock? They sell limited edition items as well, and you don't see them deciding that when stock is low they're going to bump up the prices.

Let me guess, you think it's fine when people take bottled water into areas where disasters have hit and sell it for triple what it's worth?

(EDIT: why can't I say r?)

You realize stores are free to set prices right? Why you think it only applies to lowering?

And what makes miniatures special where stores have to set prices to some value and no other where for example pc software you can see 2 edition older software on sale for over rpp of new version...

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Dunno about across the pond there, but Michaels here and some art stores also offer an additional 10% off for students or teachers so long as you have a School ID you can provide them with. It's usable in combination with other discounts here. Ask about it, 10% doesn't sound like much but it can add up when you're buying stacks of special paper.

Website says they have the 10% student discount but nothing about 50% coupons. You're right though, never hurts to ask.

todays crop of coupons on Michael's:

http://www.michaels.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-MichaelsUS-Site/default/Coupons-ViewCoupons?storeid=8840&address=628%20W%20Hammer%20Ln%2c%20Stockton%2c%20CA%2095210&hours=9%3a00am%20-%209%3a00pm&hoursun=10%3a00am%20-%207%3a00pm&postalcode=&city=&state=&tel=%28209%29%20473-1701

 kingbobbito wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
...and no legitimate business would scalp stuff...

...Wha...?

This is a very simple set of equations. Supply of SWA is apparently limited. Demand is apparently high. Your LGS decided that people would probably still buy it if they charged an extra $30. You are now presented with the choice to buy it from them for an extra $30 or buy it from someone else at someone else's price.

Nowhere in there is "legitimate business" a relevant or useful concept. Your power to dictate prices to any supplier extends to whether you choose to buy the plastic toys, there's no intrinsic fairness that mandates them to sell plastic toys at list price here.

As much as people want to believe 40k is a collector's item, even you admit they are plastic toys. At Christmas time did you see toys are us selling anything at a markup because they were having trouble getting it in stock? They sell limited edition items as well, and you don't see them deciding that when stock is low they're going to bump up the prices.

Let me guess, you think it's fine when people take bottled water into areas where disasters have hit and sell it for triple what it's worth?

(EDIT: why can't I say r?)

Umm, having worked for Toys R Us for several years, I can very firmly tell you that they do just that. Mark up the prices on highly desired, low availability products. Those TNMT sewer lairs that came out a few years ago? Prices magically went from $80 to $100 around Christmas time. I wonder why that is.

To those saying it's the model that other stores employ - yea, ok, that's true.

But games like this need a community. There's no community when you go into Toys R Us to buy some nonsense Ninja Turtle stuff.

A hobby shop isn't just a place to buy stuff. Without a thriving community, there is no hobby shop, and without a hobby shop, there is no gaming.

Gamers, and hobby shop proprietors, need to understand that it's a symbiotic relationship. Neither one does well without the other. Gouging prices is what gave hobby shops such a bad name in the first place, and ultimately why they vanished pretty quick once people realized you could buy on the internet and save a lot of money.

Is the store owner perfectly within his rights to charge whatever he pleases? Yes.

But the phrase, penny rich, dollar poor, comes to mind. He might make an extra $100 total on his last few copies of Shadow War Armageddon. But in the long run, that kind of stuff leaves a foul taste in people's mouths, and will push people away from the store. While I might not be describing how you personally will react, many people will, and hopefully we can all understand that there are quite a few people out there who think differently than we do.

I've dropped probably $1000 this year so far on GW products. If a store gouged me, they'd lose my business. Would you trade my purchases for $30 extra dollars for SWA?

If you view it that way, it all depends on the local clientele and the loss vs gain ratio.

If the store owner feels that gouging for this particular set will earn him enough revenue in the long run (i.e: your old veteran gamers barely buy anything and the majority of his profits are from people who come in once or twice and never comes back) then you can bet your shorts he's gonna gouge the hell out of his products. This is a problem with stores next to colleges (like mine), where they're pretty much guaranteed to get a new crop of customers every year and it's also very hard to develop a local playerbase (due to people leaving every year).

Also trying to shame these kind of stores don't consistently work. The shop below me once creeped out a crop of foreign exchange students so bad that I had to physically step in to get the shop owner to back off (I was part of the student's escorts) when he wouldn't leave them alone and kept trying to talk them into buying some rather creepy stuff (like naked anime figurines or gag adult toys). And yes, he fully knew they didn't speak a lick of english and at one point tried to get me to "help" him by translating. Story made the rounds around the college.

3 years later his store is still open under him, business no worse for wear.

 kingbobbito wrote:
...Let me guess, you think it's fine when people take bottled water into areas where disasters have hit and sell it for triple what it's worth?...

Just out of curiosity, did you read my post?

Are you trying to suggest that a game store inconveniencing you by forcing you to go to a different store to get a luxury item at list price is in any way comparable to people trying to profit off a disaster by gouging folks for basic necessities?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
...Let me guess, you think it's fine when people take bottled water into areas where disasters have hit and sell it for triple what it's worth?...

Just out of curiosity, did you read my post?

Are you trying to suggest that a game store inconveniencing you by forcing you to go to a different store to get a luxury item at list price is in any way comparable to people trying to profit off a disaster by gouging folks for basic necessities?

This is wargaming - yes, people do attach this level of importance to it.

As far as higher pricing in shops? That's life. Prices vary in different places and it's up to the shop. They don't owe you and your have free choice to shop where you think the best deal is.

There's a massive difference between scalping a "luxury" consumer item and someone profiteering/scalping materials required for life/safety during a state of emergency. Just a tad...bit...different.

I haven't been to my FLGS since before SWA came out. They'll probably still have some (they still have Imperial Space Marines in stock) but as always (thanks Switzerland) it'll be marked up. I'm lucky that both the Euro and the pound are down, though. Swiss franc is still going strong.

Can't speak for SWA but have a horror story with a former FLGS.
Went to a nearby shop back in the day, things changed when they started upcharging for a lot of stuff. MTG packs started going $1 above everywhere else, 40k kits were 15% more expensive than GW shops, everything just went up in price one day.

My group stopped going. Decided to see them after a 6 year hiatus. Prices went up, the building is borderline condemned, and when I inquired about some older D20 books, they said they wouldn't go below MSRP. I didn't come back. This was in 2013.

A week ago I was calling around looking for packs for the new Final Fantasy Card Game. They still had a phone number and all other options were looking bleak so i tried. These guys wanted $10 a pack for something that sells for $3.99 MSRP.
I don't know how they stay afloat.

 Peregrine wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Let me guess, you think it's fine when people take bottled water into areas where disasters have hit and sell it for triple what it's worth?

Do you honestly see no difference between spiking prices on an essential item that people will literally die without, and increasing prices a bit on a luxury item to reflect its actual market price?

I'm curious of this ever got answered, and if OP has tried to drink his SWA box set yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mokoshkana wrote:
Stop shopping at Tims dude. You keep making threads about his store. Just stop going there

Ah, this thread makes more sense now.

I think you're an idiot to buy it and then complain about the price gouging that you were aware of prior to buying it.

OP, FLGS set the price to what they think will sell and not scare their customers away to buy somewhere else.
That is pretty much how the market works.
It sucks, I feel your pain but this is normal.
I thank my lucky stars that my local FLGS seems to sell under the GW listed prices so your post at least helps me not take it for granted.

"Scalping" really does not apply here, I do have a FLGS that buys from the larger cheaper FLGS on occasion which would be more like scalping.
Heck, those same guys have Imperial Knights selling for $190 while the "larger cheaper" FLGS sells for $130.
Mind, the smaller store hosts gaming so I feel buying the occasional "marked up" item keeps them in business and pays for the gaming space which would be very bad if they closed.

I find it humorous that people complain about GW pricing, but when hobby shops charge well above that pricing, people jump to defend the LGS.

This is a silly complaint. Do you complain when a store has a clearance bin, marking things down that they cannot sell? That is just the opposite of this. In one case the store has demand for a particular product that exceeds their supply, in the other they have supply that exceeds their demand. If you don't like the increased price don't buy it and if no one buys it the store will eventually mark them down because demand for the product will dry up.

I get the whole supply and demand thing but I do agree that it's shady for a retailer to mark up the MSRP of a product because they think they can get away with it. Like the OP said, you don't see Best Buy or Gamestop marking up consoles - they made an agreement with the distributor and bought them with the expectation that they were going to be sold at a certain price. Price gouging after something starts selling well is a bad move.

BUT, OP did support this practice by buying it in the end. Hopefully people like this find that few people are willing to do the same and learn the hard way that blatantly fleecing your customers doesn't pay in the long run.

I'm not saying it is a good move, though the MSRP itself says suggested, so I don't think it is shady to sell something above (or below) that price. As for best buy etc, larger stores have less to gain on a percentage basis (and more to lose from bad PR) by marking things up. Though if it were a more accepted practice, it would be far less common to have situations where stores were sold out of stock for months because supply cannot keep up with demand. In the console market what happens is instead individuals buy the consoles and then re-sell them at a mark-up on sites like Amazon or Ebay.

Take the Nintendo Switch, MSRP at $299, I cannot find it for sale online for less than $350

Or the Nintendo Classic MSRP of $60 cannot find it for less than $200.

This would be far less common if stores raised the price initially to a point where it would not be profitable for individuals to buy extras and resell. Then as stock caught up with demand prices would fall.

I don't know if this is rational but I feel totally different about individuals buying something at MSRP and then reselling it.

It costs a certain amount to make and distribute something, and manufacturers bake that all into the wholesale price and the MSRP so they can sell something to stores and both can make a profit. Retailers are already buying at below MSRP and marking it up for their cut. Prices, initial supply levels etc. are all decisions made well in advance of a product hitting shelves. If the manufacturer underestimates demand at MSRP it means they should have made more stuff, not that the retailer should mark up the product even more to capitalize on artificial scarcity AFTER they've already agreed to buy and sell something at a certain price.

Luciferian: So it is better to allow consumers (who are now becoming another link in the chain, the reseller) to make a profit too, rather than the store to sell it to someone who actually wants it by putting it at a price point that won't see a reseller make a profit?

But they have not agreed to sell something at a certain price (again suggested retail price). You are making an assumption that they could have made more of something (which if the case why don't they quickly resupply the market killing the second hand markup market). Either they are not able to or they have created scarcity because they decided to create a limited run. In which case why is it ok for someone to buy 10 of the limited run and double the price because they got their early, but not ok that the retailer charges 20% extra in hopes of making back money they lose on stock that doesn't sell, or curtailing people buying multiple copies. I actually have more issue with people buying 10 of some limited item, to go and mark it up over the store price, than I would with it being marked up at release to keep demand in check. Either way someone is creating scarcity. Especially in cases of small retailers, there is really no difference between them raising the price and some ebay store doing the same. Especially if the person buying at MSRP is doubling the price or similar. Like I said if you are ok with them marking down things that don't sell, and not ok with them marking up things that will sell, then you are being a hypocrite.

Now with online retail available, it is almost never a good idea to sell above MSRP, because your competition will undercut your price, and take your sales. If you price above MSRP then people will just order from GW directly, or go to another LGS, or another online retailer. Now if it gets to the point where all those other places are sold out and my options are 20% higher at my LGS, and 50% higher online (ebay looks like $192 ish is the cheapest I can find after shipping), then if I really want it I'd rather pay the 20% at my LGS.

So the OP questions the motality of a business' practice and then admits he did the same (parted out bits/portions and keeping portions, breaking even). That means he most likely would have made more than the store's $160 if he sold it all. Same practise as what the store did.

Business or civilian, you can't call out someone for doing something similar. A business isn't held to a higher standard than the OP. If anything, I feel less bad about a business doing this. He only marked it up $30 (goes for $200+ on ebay every day... you know the shop owner knows that). He also has to pay employees, keep the lights on, pay for insurance, etc. The OP just funded his personal hobby by parting out value from his set (like the rulebook, as many try to sell theirs for $50-$99 when gw will be selling it soon for far less for example).

It all comes down to supply and demand. This is why rare magic cards are pricey, or why folks thought their metal gw blisters tripled in value after finecast. Genestealer cult dice for $75 on ebay ring a bell?

I'd suggest giving a brick and mortar store a break these days, when online shopping is crushing most stores with massive discounts and free shipping. Don't want to buy the set for $160? You dont have to, someone else will at that awesome price.

I guess if I'm being honest I just don't like it because it goes against convention. You don't see that kind of behavior anywhere in retail, or even sales of limited items like event tickets. Also, I feel like you guys are looking at this as if it were some kind of commodities market instead of retail.

The MSRP is already set at a number the manufacturer thinks will be profitable for retailers and one which their customers will hopefully be willing to pay. The retailer orders as many units as they think they can sell at that price and they fully expect to make a profit from it, otherwise they wouldn't order any in the first place. Bumping up their margin a second time AFTER the item starts selling is just transparently exploitative. It's just not something any other retailer does. There's no spot price for tabletop games or any other retail unit; they're not like some publicly traded commodity where you can expect the price to fluctuate day to day based on market factors.

It would be like Ticketmaster trying to set ticket prices DURING sales. This show is going to be $40 when tickets go on sale, UNLESS they start selling out in which case we're going to raise the price.

Now, the seconhand market is what it is. Sure, scalpers are jerks but in a lot of cases they're making less than the original retail markup, and they're taking a higher risk if the item doesn't sell above MSRP. If a retailer isn't moving units at MSRP they can discount them a little bit and still make a profit most of the time.

Drawing comparisons to other industries is not helpful, though.

At the end of the day, selling one box of one release at slightly over MSRP won't make a store successful for years. Hobby shops and their clientele have a symbiotic relationship. There's a quid pro quo, you offer a place to play and a friendly environment, and we'll be patrons of your store.

Gouging the gamers flies in the face of this tacit agreement. Outside of this one very isolated case, you can get pretty much all GW products cheaper online than at a hobby shop. Is it really worth it to damage that relationship for the extra $30?

 Marmatag wrote:
Drawing comparisons to other industries is not helpful, though.

At the end of the day, selling one box of one release at slightly over MSRP won't make a store successful for years. Hobby shops and their clientele have a symbiotic relationship. There's a quid pro quo, you offer a place to play and a friendly environment, and we'll be patrons of your store.

Gouging the gamers flies in the face of this tacit agreement. Outside of this one very isolated case, you can get pretty much all GW products cheaper online than at a hobby shop. Is it really worth it to damage that relationship for the extra $30?

I agree with this. I think it's well within the rights of the FLGS to do it but I find it kind of hard to stomach. I pretty much shop exclusively at my FLGS. He provides us a place to play/game and in return we try and buy all our stuff from him. He also tries to give us discounts whenever he can. Its at least 10% but more often than not its 20% off. I know some other stores that will have occasional sales and I can also get the stuff a little cheaper on ebay but don't because of said agreement Marmatag pointed out.

If I went to get SW:A from him and he did this to me the feeling of betrayal would be over 9000.....

But in cases of tickets when they know demand is high, they do set prices higher. So like a Cavaliers V Warriors (Yankees V Red sox baseball etc) basket ball game will have higher ticket prices than Cavaliers V Sixers, because they know demand will be high. In Card Games prices go up due to sales all the time, if something is in short supply and high demand it is worth more. The same is true with used games at places like Gamestop. Scalpers in many cases are making way more than retail markup (typically 40%), and there is not a whole lot of risk involved in cases where scalping is high. They also don't have overhead costs (40% is the profit margin for the retailer, it is the money they didn't have to spend on the stock) Retailers lose money all the time on stock that doesn't sell, then they mark it down sometimes below cost just to clear space.

Things like Ticketmaster also do somewhat adjust, if one show is constantly selling out, they may up prices for future shows.

It also sounded like in the case of the OP it wasn't after sales started the owner took a risk, based on his assumption that demand would be high, and raised the price. He didn't start selling at $130 sell 5 quick and then up the price. He bought 10 and set the price at $160 under the assumption demand would be there. So he took a risk, if they didn't sell and everyone else bought elsewhere, he may well have been stuck with stock he could not off load.

The reason you don't see that behavior in most retail, is because this is a big risk. It is a risk for the store being undercut by the competition, and a risk of the reputation of the store as being exploitive.

You don't have to like it or buy when people do this, but there is nothing ethically or morally wrong with the seller deciding to take a risk for more profit.

Essentially, you don't need to like the seller for raising prices or buy from them. But if other people do, and don't care, then he made the right business decision. If he drives customers away and doesn't sell out, he likely made a mistake.

I think we're basically in agreement. I'm not trying to say that it's something that's technically wrong or that a retailer shouldn't be able to do, just that it's a dick move that I don't respect.

 Luciferian wrote:
The MSRP is already set at a number the manufacturer thinks will be profitable for retailers and one which their customers will hopefully be willing to pay. The retailer orders as many units as they think they can sell at that price and they fully expect to make a profit from it, otherwise they wouldn't order any in the first place. Bumping up their margin a second time AFTER the item starts selling is just transparently exploitative. It's just not something any other retailer does. There's no spot price for tabletop games or any other retail unit; they're not like some publicly traded commodity where you can expect the price to fluctuate day to day based on market factors.

And yet this "MSRP is fixed, you shouldn't deviate from it" argument never seems to be made when it comes to discounts. People are happy to buy at a price other than MSRP as long as it's in their favor.

 Peregrine wrote:

And yet this "MSRP is fixed, you shouldn't deviate from it" argument never seems to be made when it comes to discounts. People are happy to buy at a price other than MSRP as long as it's in their favor.

Well, how is that surprising? These days, every SKU out there is meticulously priced to include costs of manufacturing, shipping, distribution, retailer overhead, incidental losses, margins of profit etc. The idea being that if you have retail space and the capability of selling someone a thing they wanted when they walked through the door, then you can make money by purchasing retail units wholesale and selling them at MSRP. With competition these days most retailers are offering various incentives and discounts to get people in their doors or on their webstores as opposed to going to the competition. When a retailer sells above MSRP, they are in essence saying that they know you can go elsewhere or simply not buy the item, but they're betting you won't because they have no respect for you as a customer. It just adds a personal level of ickiness that's hard for people to get past. Discounting units below MSRP is a normal part of the retail cycle.

This is all about the feeling the customer leaves with. Give someone a discount and yes, they feel like they've won something over on you. But the important thing is that they're more likely to come back because they feel you've treated them fairly. Go the other way around and the customer feels like you're exploiting them.

I think someone mentioned this earlier, but this IS the exact kind of complaint that most GW critics have. If they slashed the price of everything they sell by $10 and released a free or cheap unified ruleset with digital access, their customer base would blow up. Instead they've been steadily hiking up prices and neglecting the game aspect of their product because they know us hardcore collectors will cough up anyway, so they try to wring every sale for what it's worth even at the expense of new blood. I mean they add $20 to the price of a set with the same amount of plastic and level of detail as any other based on how easy it is to field in an army. I think there are plenty of people who have suggested over the year that might not be the best business plan,

 Luciferian wrote:
These days, every SKU out there is meticulously priced to include costs of manufacturing, shipping, distribution, retailer overhead, incidental losses, margins of profit etc. The idea being that if you have retail space and the capability of selling someone a thing they wanted when they walked through the door, then you can make money by purchasing retail units wholesale and selling them at MSRP.

Exactly. It's all carefully planned, and so you should just pay MSRP instead of expecting a discount. But oh wait, suddenly that careful planning that goes into setting a price can be discarded as soon as it saves you a bit of money.

When a retailer sells above MSRP, they are in essence saying that they know you can go elsewhere or simply not buy the item, but they're betting you won't because they have no respect for you as a customer.

That same argument is true about a store selling at MSRP when another store is selling at a 10% discount. By selling at a higher price they're in essence saying that they know you can go to the store with a 10% discount, but they're betting you won't because they have no respect for you as a customer. When you get rid of this ridiculous situational respect for MSRP for the sake of MSRP it all comes down to "any store that doesn't offer the lowest price is disrespecting me". And that's an incredibly entitled attitude to have.

Go the other way around and the customer feels like you're exploiting them.

And, again, this is an incredibly entitled attitude to have. You aren't entitled to buy a product at MSRP, so you aren't being exploited if a store sells at higher than MSRP.

If they slashed the price of everything they sell by $10 and released a free or cheap unified ruleset with digital access, their customer base would blow up.

Well yes, of course it would. But that has more to do with the fact that GW's greatest weakness is the terrible rules, and releasing free rules that don't suck would be a massive improvement. The price cuts might be a nice bonus, but the main factor would be that the game would finally be playable again. Because let's be realistic here, weird obsessions with what is "fair" pricing aside, 40k is still a pretty cheap hobby by the standards of adult hobbies. Saving an extra $10 here and there has very little practical effect.

I think the issue with MSRP is it isn't carefully considered for the seller to make money. It is based on a certain percentage markup where the retailer makes that percentage over what they paid for the product.

IT doesn't take into account that a store might be in an area with high rent, or high minimum wage, or cost of living. More expensive utilities etc. So in this case it is possible that the seller is making less selling MSRP than he might if he were simply an online store.

For instance I might not fault a retailer that said, I'm going to sell everything for a 10% mark-up because I have a big store in NYC with 20 tables, with beautiful terrain, and 5 employees staffing at all time to help with everything you might need. Now that might not end up being a sustainable business model, but selling minis in a brick and mortar store is a dying business model anyway that is almost entirely supported by other games.

 Peregrine wrote:

Exactly. It's all carefully planned, and so you should just pay MSRP instead of expecting a discount. But oh wait, suddenly that careful planning that goes into setting a price can be discarded as soon as it saves you a bit of money.

That same argument is true about a store selling at MSRP when another store is selling at a 10% discount. By selling at a higher price they're in essence saying that they know you can go to the store with a 10% discount, but they're betting you won't because they have no respect for you as a customer. When you get rid of this ridiculous situational respect for MSRP for the sake of MSRP it all comes down to "any store that doesn't offer the lowest price is disrespecting me". And that's an incredibly entitled attitude to have.

I feel like all you're doing is applying the same double standard in the other direction. Retailers aren't entitled to sales, either. In any case, simply throwing around accusations of entitlement isn't very informative - people will try to sell things at the highest price they can and buy them at the lowest price they can. Additionally, consumers have a choice where to spend their money and decisions like marking up product solely to opportunistically pad your margins on a handful of sales is the kind of thing that generates ill-will and dampens repeat business. It's not a question of entitlement, it's just how it goes. "LGS - We charge 10% above MSRP, and if you don't like it you're an entitled brat," just isn't a great marketing scheme. Sorry.

Well yes, of course it would. But that has more to do with the fact that GW's greatest weakness is the terrible rules, and releasing free rules that don't suck would be a massive improvement. The price cuts might be a nice bonus, but the main factor would be that the game would finally be playable again. Because let's be realistic here, weird obsessions with what is "fair" pricing aside, 40k is still a pretty cheap hobby by the standards of adult hobbies. Saving an extra $10 here and there has very little practical effect.

No offense, but I think you might be the one with weird obsessions over issues of fairness and entitlement. I agree with you about the rules and I think many others share the sentiment, which is why we're all eagerly awaiting 8th edition. But I'm not talking about what's "fair" or what I'm entitled to personally, I'm talking about what is practical and sustainable from a business perspective. It's true that none of us are entitled to buy GW products at a cheaper price, and that they can set the price however they want. However, the fact is that someone else WILL satisfy that demand, and GW isn't entitled to actually sell their products at any price they choose.

 Luciferian wrote:
It's true that none of us are entitled to buy GW products at a cheaper price, and that they can set the price however they want. However, the fact is that someone else WILL satisfy that demand, and GW isn't entitled to actually sell their products at any price they choose.

GW or a store can sell product at any price they choose, they are entitled to it.
The risk, is someone may sell something shiny that is comparatively more of a deal and GW may lose that sale.

The ONLY time I see all this fall apart is when a company has a monopoly on the market or it is a mandatory purchase.

SWA however is a luxury / disposable income item and I would be hard pressed to get angry is someone is selling SWA for $300: best of luck to them if they manage it.
We do see various status items that go to ridiculous costs where it is only the brand-name not manufacture cost that adds to the expense.

I bought SWA for $120 Canadian.

Looking at GW site if I were to try to buy the contents:
Magnavent = $90
Alchomite Stack = $60
Furnace = $60
Both Scout kits = $60
Ork boyz = $34
Typical codex: ~$50
Universal Templates = $16
Scatter die = $1

Grand Total: $371

Well, that is scary.
I wonder if my FLGS has more of those SWA boxes...

The thing about MSRP is you can order it from GW at MSRP as long as they have it in stock.

Once GW runs out of stock, it's out of print (effectively). Ask any collector of basically anything how this works once something is out of print. The price goes up.

Now, it's IMO stupid of a retailer to jack the price of a just released product - you risk alienating your customers which is bad in the long run, but there's nothing inherently immoral about raising the price on an item that's selling off quickly. All it's doing is putting the profit in the retailer's pocket as opposed to the reseller's pocket, and it's probably those resellers speculating that created the shortage in the first place.

For the record, SWA is still available at the Canadian GW webstore, both in english and french.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:


Looking at GW site if I were to try to buy the contents:

Grand Total: $371

Well, that is scary.
I wonder if my FLGS has more of those SWA boxes...

I suspect GW overstocked on the terrain (low sales?) and this is their way of getting rid of it without reducing the MSRP on the individual pieces.

 John Prins wrote:
For the record, SWA is still available at the Canadian GW webstore, both in english and french.

No it's not. Its missing one crucial element and that's the button that allows you to add it to your cart.

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it humorous that people complain about GW pricing, but when hobby shops charge well above that pricing, people jump to defend the LGS.

Nobody is 'defending' the LGS. They're just pointing out the reality of the situation, which is that stores can charge what they want. That's how retail works.

 Luciferian wrote:
... they made an agreement with the distributor and bought them with the expectation that they were going to be sold at a certain price. .

That's not how retail works.

The manufacturer or distributor recommends a retail price. The retailer sets their price based on what works for their business model. Aside from situations where there is a specific price limitation built into the contract with the manufacturer (which isn't common, as it can lead to allegations of price fixing, which is illegal in many countries) there is no 'expectation' that the product will sell for any given price.

 Luciferian wrote:
I guess if I'm being honest I just don't like it because it goes against convention. You don't see that kind of behavior anywhere in retail, ...

I can only assume you don't spend much time in shops... because you see this all the time in retail.

the whole issue about this is, we don't know what the store paid for the game? he may have had to buy it from GW online and not their business order form since he would have had to buy a bunch of other stuff from them, so he could have ended up paying $130 per set.

 Luciferian wrote:
Retailers aren't entitled to sales, either.

They aren't, and I never said they are. If you don't like the price that a store is selling a product at then you're free to decline to buy. I'm simply objecting to this entitled attitude that the store is doing something morally wrong and insulting the customer by selling at anything other than MSRP, but suddenly the importance of MSRP is discarded if it means getting a discount on something.

I'm talking about what is practical and sustainable from a business perspective.

And "what is sustainable from a business perspective" has far more to do with GW's rules than their prices. Again, 40k even at GW's highest prices is still a relatively cheap hobby by the standard of adult hobbies. If the product is good people will find a way to afford it. GW's problem is that people look at the bloated mess of rules and nonexistent balance, and they decide that 40k isn't much fun and they'd rather spend their money on something else no matter what price GW sets.

 Ghaz wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
For the record, SWA is still available at the Canadian GW webstore, both in english and french.

No it's not. Its missing one crucial element and that's the button that allows you to add it to your cart.

Ah, my bad. Normally GW grays out stuff that's no longer available. So it's out of stock and assuming they don't do new runs of it, it's effectively out of print and it's a "what the market will bear" situation, price wise.

 insaniak wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it humorous that people complain about GW pricing, but when hobby shops charge well above that pricing, people jump to defend the LGS.

Nobody is 'defending' the LGS. They're just pointing out the reality of the situation, which is that stores can charge what they want. That's how retail works.

"That's how retail works," is presented as a defense of the right to charge what you please, on behalf of the LGS.

In one breath you say no one is defending them, and close your snide post with a defense of the LGS.

Totes funny, bruh

TIL pointing out facts is taking sides.

 Marmatag wrote:

"That's how retail works," is presented as a defense of the right to charge what you please, on behalf of the LGS.

In one breath you say no one is defending them, and close your snide post with a defense of the LGS.

Totes funny, bruh

There was nothing snide about my post.

Pointing out a fact is not the same as defending that fact. If I point out that angry people with guns sometimes kill people, that's not a defense of said angry people. It's just pointing out something that happens.

Similarly, pointing out that the retail industry is set up in such a way as to allow retailers to set their own prices on products they sell is not a defense of the retail industry... it's simply pointing out how retail works.

There is no need to 'defend' the store in this case any more than there is a need to defend any of the countless other stores out there right now selling various products for a price higher than the manufacturer's recommendation. This is not some shady business practice only followed by dingy little game stores looking to make a quick buck... It's simply retail.

Elevated pricing due to demand happens all the time. It's not so common in retail but that's only because genuinely limited items are fairly rare in retail.

Airlines increase the price of tickets as flights fill up, car dealers will charge well over msrp for high demand low production models (when Ford revealed just how small the GT production run was some dealers were holding auctions.)

As soon as something is generally unavailable (as is the case with SWA) expect prices to go up if there is still demand for it.

There is a positive side - the reason that this store has some available is because he's charging 120%. As a result OP was able to get one, albeit at a premium. If he'd been charging 90% then they would almost certainly have been gone. Instead of complaining about the price OP would have been complaining that he couldn't get a copy.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Elevated pricing due to demand happens all the time. It's not so common in retail but that's only because genuinely limited items are fairly rare in retail.

Airlines increase the price of tickets as flights fill up, car dealers will charge well over msrp for high demand low production models (when Ford revealed just how small the GT production run was some dealers were holding auctions.)

As soon as something is generally unavailable (as is the case with SWA) expect prices to go up if there is still demand for it.

There is a positive side - the reason that this store has some available is because he's charging 120%. As a result OP was able to get one, albeit at a premium. If he'd been charging 90% then they would almost certainly have been gone. Instead of complaining about the price OP would have been complaining that he couldn't get a copy.

So the OP got an item he wanted for a price he was willing to pay instead of nothing at all?

Sounds like the systems works! Grats op!

 insaniak wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

"That's how retail works," is presented as a defense of the right to charge what you please, on behalf of the LGS.

In one breath you say no one is defending them, and close your snide post with a defense of the LGS.

Totes funny, bruh

There was nothing snide about my post.

Pointing out a fact is not the same as defending that fact. If I point out that angry people with guns sometimes kill people, that's not a defense of said angry people. It's just pointing out something that happens.

Similarly, pointing out that the retail industry is set up in such a way as to allow retailers to set their own prices on products they sell is not a defense of the retail industry... it's simply pointing out how retail works.

There is no need to 'defend' the store in this case any more than there is a need to defend any of the countless other stores out there right now selling various products for a price higher than the manufacturer's recommendation. This is not some shady business practice only followed by dingy little game stores looking to make a quick buck... It's simply retail.

There is obviously no need to point out how retail works; doing so makes your posts snide.

If the entire process boils down to "simply retail," then logically no one should ever buy from a LGS when the internet is cheaper, except for isolated cases such as this. Right?

But we both know "simply retail" is an oversimplification of the relationship between the store and its patrons.

 Marmatag wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

"That's how retail works," is presented as a defense of the right to charge what you please, on behalf of the LGS.

In one breath you say no one is defending them, and close your snide post with a defense of the LGS.

Totes funny, bruh

There was nothing snide about my post.

Pointing out a fact is not the same as defending that fact. If I point out that angry people with guns sometimes kill people, that's not a defense of said angry people. It's just pointing out something that happens.

Similarly, pointing out that the retail industry is set up in such a way as to allow retailers to set their own prices on products they sell is not a defense of the retail industry... it's simply pointing out how retail works.

There is no need to 'defend' the store in this case any more than there is a need to defend any of the countless other stores out there right now selling various products for a price higher than the manufacturer's recommendation. This is not some shady business practice only followed by dingy little game stores looking to make a quick buck... It's simply retail.

There is obviously no need to point out how retail works; doing so makes your posts snide.

If the entire process boils down to "simply retail," then logically no one should ever buy from a LGS when the internet is cheaper, except for isolated cases such as this. Right?

But we both know "simply retail" is an oversimplification of the relationship between the store and its patrons.

There was obviously a need to point out how retail works, as several people in this thread didn't seem to know (as evidenced by their posts) - it was not snide to do so.

If anything, your posts skirt a line of patronization that seems ever-present.

Why is there 'obviously' no need to pint out how retail works, reading some of the above posts it seems like some don't know how it works. So saying 'simply retail' is not explaining anything about why someone disagrees.

Just simple supply and demand can still leave me buying something more expensive from GW rather than cheaper on the internet. I have no 'relationship' nor loyalty to any store, but I still spend money there because I sometimes 'demand' a product now and not in 5 days time and GW (or whomever) can supply that demand. Then there is the shipping, the internet stores i use charge shipping if you don't buy over a certain amount, so unless I want to buy a certain amount it is cheaper to pay more for the product itself at a store, as shipping can be more than the 10-20% discount at smaller amounts (assuming it is not 'bulky'. and subject to shipping cost no matter what).

I've found plenty of stuff (usually X-Wing) sold at increased prices beyond MSRP. Sadly, it happens. You can let the store know what MSRP is (sometimes it IS an honest mistake; I've had that happen at my local once and he never upcharges). If they refuse, you can refuse to do business. But that's all you can do. Make them aware and either pay or not have your stuff if they refuse to budge.

puree wrote:
Why is there 'obviously' no need to pint out how retail works, reading some of the above posts it seems like some don't know how it works. So saying 'simply retail' is not explaining anything about why someone disagrees.

Just simple supply and demand can still leave me buying something more expensive from GW rather than cheaper on the internet. I have no 'relationship' nor loyalty to any store, but I still spend money there because I sometimes 'demand' a product now and not in 5 days time and GW (or whomever) can supply that demand. Then there is the shipping, the internet stores i use charge shipping if you don't buy over a certain amount, so unless I want to buy a certain amount it is cheaper to pay more for the product itself at a store, as shipping can be more than the 10-20% discount at smaller amounts (assuming it is not 'bulky'. and subject to shipping cost no matter what).

I have never disputed that stores can charge what they want. This is a philosophical discussion about whether or not they should. There is no debate on whether or not they can price freely based on demand, at least from me. Telling me "how retail works" is either (a) completely misunderstanding or ignoring my point, or (b) being snide.

Amazon prime will deliver within 2 days.
Ebay is vastly cheaper than any store.

I can't claim to understand the markets for things in England. But here in California, USA, I can save a lot of money going online - nearly 40% - and the delivery time of 2-3 days is actually faster, because traffic out here will take me over 1 hour to go 20 miles on a weeknight, which means i can only buy on the weekends at a store. Without loyalty I would never buy from a shop. Ever.

True assuming your retailer knows anything about the hobby is a mistake. Around the turn of 7e I had to let one owner know that his full price 6e rulebooks were unlikely to sell.

 insaniak wrote:

There was nothing snide about my post.

Pointing out a fact is not the same as defending that fact. If I point out that angry people with guns sometimes kill people, that's not a defense of said angry people. It's just pointing out something that happens.

Similarly, pointing out that the retail industry is set up in such a way as to allow retailers to set their own prices on products they sell is not a defense of the retail industry... it's simply pointing out how retail works.

There is no need to 'defend' the store in this case any more than there is a need to defend any of the countless other stores out there right now selling various products for a price higher than the manufacturer's recommendation. This is not some shady business practice only followed by dingy little game stores looking to make a quick buck... It's simply retail.

Just like how my pointing out that a retailer charging above MSRP puts people off isn't an endorsement of "entitlement". Yet that's how it was treated, anyway.

I don't think this is really going anywhere. No one is saying that retailers should be forced to sell at MSRP or that it's wrong for them not to do so, just that they don't personally endorse that kind of practice. It's not entitled to say you don't like your LGS opportunistically charging above retail on one SKU as if suddenly they've adopted the business model of a coin and bouillon dealer.

And yes, there are a lot of things I don't know about retail, and no, I don't often go to physical stores. However, in my personal experience, I have pretty much never seen a straight up retail business adopting some kind of spot price for retail SKU's because of scarcity. Even in cases where there is very high demand and limited supply like during the release of a new GPU generation. Granted, there is MUCH more competition in most other cases, so that might play a significant factor.

I may be wrong about certain details but ultimately I stand by what I said. There is nothing wrong with feeling put off or alienated by a price-gouging LGS, and there's nothing wrong with stating those impressions (except maybe if you buy it anyway and then complain about it, but I digress). Just as there's nothing wrong with that LGS charging whatever they want to for anything on their shelves, even at the expense of good will. I don't really get why that's such a controversial stance but oh well.

 Marmatag wrote:

puree wrote:
Why is there 'obviously' no need to pint out how retail works, reading some of the above posts it seems like some don't know how it works. So saying 'simply retail' is not explaining anything about why someone disagrees.

Just simple supply and demand can still leave me buying something more expensive from GW rather than cheaper on the internet. I have no 'relationship' nor loyalty to any store, but I still spend money there because I sometimes 'demand' a product now and not in 5 days time and GW (or whomever) can supply that demand. Then there is the shipping, the internet stores i use charge shipping if you don't buy over a certain amount, so unless I want to buy a certain amount it is cheaper to pay more for the product itself at a store, as shipping can be more than the 10-20% discount at smaller amounts (assuming it is not 'bulky'. and subject to shipping cost no matter what).

I have never disputed that stores can charge what they want. This is a philosophical discussion about whether or not they should. There is no debate on whether or not they can price freely based on demand, at least from me. Telling me "how retail works" is either (a) completely misunderstanding or ignoring my point, or (b) being snide.

Amazon prime will deliver within 2 days.
Ebay is vastly cheaper than any store.

I can't claim to understand the markets for things in England. But here in California, USA, I can save a lot of money going online - nearly 40% - and the delivery time of 2-3 days is actually faster, because traffic out here will take me over 1 hour to go 20 miles on a weeknight, which means i can only buy on the weekends at a store. Without loyalty I would never buy from a shop. Ever.

Yeah, thats retail for you, people who don't want to pay a premium won't, for various reasons, or they will for various reasons.

I don't see an issue with anything, if they wanna charge that much, and it is in their legal right to do so, there's nothing wrong with it. Don't buy it if you don't like it, buy it if you do. You get to vote with your wallet.

Hey, since this thread is about how a store can quickly lose the loyalty of their customers, I wanted to pop in and loudly declare my loyalty to one of the best game stores I've ever known: The Guard Tower, in Columbus Ohio.

Here's my Shadow War experience:

I heard about the game. From word one I was hooked - all of my armies are more or less themed around Armageddon. Necromunda is one of my favorite games. I only have room for skirmish game play. I've always dreamed of a plastic underhive. So, I was sold.

Next, I saw it sell out on the UK site in minutes. Knowing I'd have a hard time of it, I waited on the website for it to go live in the USA. I misjudged when they put material up (I thought it was noon) and when I checked it again it was 2:30, and it was long gone.

So, I call all of my local game shops, and no one is getting it, or staff already held it back for themselves.

So, I call the Guardtower, and ask if I can put in a preorder for two copies. (Because, if you're going to dream, dream big) They say they'll put me down, but it's unlikely, as they've got a lot of preorders, and the stock will be low. I say thank you, and patiently wait for Saturday.

Saturday, noon, I call. The woman working the counter apologizes, and explains they did sell out, and they're unable to fulfill the preorders. I say I understand and thank her, because by now every 40k podcast I listen to is lamenting they couldn't get copies. So, time for me to wait for the book, and drool at pictures of the terrain.

Two weeks later, I get a phone call. It's the Guardtower, and they want to know if I'm ever going to come pick up my copies of Shadow War Armageddon, because others would certainly like to buy it. It turns out, when I called in before there was miscommunication, and in fact they had both copies sitting behind the counter, and had been fending off buyer inquiries and holding it for me even as I failed to show up day after day.

On Tuesday I finally claimed them, two shiny copies of a game almost no one can get their hands on. And, as they rang me up, they gave me the standard 20% discount.

Never have I felt so lucky, to have the privilege of buying expensive plastic models.

Oggthrok wrote:
Never have I felt so lucky, to have the privilege of buying expensive plastic models.

I will shout out to "J&J Cards and Collectables" in Waterloo Canada.
It is absolutely insane how they get ahold of stuff and keep the prices low.
They have no gaming space, that is the only legitimate complaint.
If I call up ahead of a release and ask for a reserve, they do it every time and have no issues waiting two weeks for pickup.
It helps their main tabletop gaming guy seems to remember everyone and knows who reliably picks up their stuff.
Actually going there tonight, wonder if they still have SWA kits...

Oggthrok wrote:
Hey, since this thread is about how a store can quickly lose the loyalty of their customers, I wanted to pop in and loudly declare my loyalty to one of the best game stores I've ever known: The Guard Tower, in Columbus Ohio.

Here's my Shadow War experience:

I heard about the game. From word one I was hooked - all of my armies are more or less themed around Armageddon. Necromunda is one of my favorite games. I only have room for skirmish game play. I've always dreamed of a plastic underhive. So, I was sold.

Next, I saw it sell out on the UK site in minutes. Knowing I'd have a hard time of it, I waited on the website for it to go live in the USA. I misjudged when they put material up (I thought it was noon) and when I checked it again it was 2:30, and it was long gone.

So, I call all of my local game shops, and no one is getting it, or staff already held it back for themselves.

So, I call the Guardtower, and ask if I can put in a preorder for two copies. (Because, if you're going to dream, dream big) They say they'll put me down, but it's unlikely, as they've got a lot of preorders, and the stock will be low. I say thank you, and patiently wait for Saturday.

Saturday, noon, I call. The woman working the counter apologizes, and explains they did sell out, and they're unable to fulfill the preorders. I say I understand and thank her, because by now every 40k podcast I listen to is lamenting they couldn't get copies. So, time for me to wait for the book, and drool at pictures of the terrain.

Two weeks later, I get a phone call. It's the Guardtower, and they want to know if I'm ever going to come pick up my copies of Shadow War Armageddon, because others would certainly like to buy it. It turns out, when I called in before there was miscommunication, and in fact they had both copies sitting behind the counter, and had been fending off buyer inquiries and holding it for me even as I failed to show up day after day.

On Tuesday I finally claimed them, two shiny copies of a game almost no one can get their hands on. And, as they rang me up, they gave me the standard 20% discount.

Never have I felt so lucky, to have the privilege of buying expensive plastic models.

See, it's hard to argue that when you treat your customers this way instead of the way the OP's LGS treated him, you're going to make them happier than you would have otherwise. As a result they're going to remember how well you treated them and how awesome your business is and they're going to come back, as well as spread the good word on places like this. Sit on top of units like a miserly dragon and price gouge, and they're going to have the opposite reaction. It's pretty simple.

If we're doing shoutouts:

The GW in Boulder Colorado is awesome, I was able to place a preorder before they officially went up for preorder, ensuring me a copy

Having been to the Guardtower during a couple trips for work, I can honestly say they're awesome!!! Hell, I've chilled and played Kings of War there with porkuslime from here!! One of the better stores I've been to while on work trips.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
If we're doing shoutouts:

The GW in Boulder Colorado is awesome, I was able to place a preorder before they officially went up for preorder, ensuring me a copy

The one in Denver is pretty cool too, if only because of the Manager, Dave. He really goes out of his way to help everyone get what they want as cheaply and efficiently as possible and encourages you to do as much hobby stuff as you need to in store with his supplies. You can tell it's working out because there are usually a few people in there playing and painting, and they all buy stuff from him just to keep it going. I traded for most of my army but I bought DV from him and I'll buy other stuff like a case and a Dark Shroud from there in the future just because he's a cool guy.

 Luciferian wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
If we're doing shoutouts:

The GW in Boulder Colorado is awesome, I was able to place a preorder before they officially went up for preorder, ensuring me a copy

The one in Denver is pretty cool too, if only because of the Manager, Dave. He really goes out of his way to help everyone get what they want as cheaply and efficiently as possible and encourages you to do as much hobby stuff as you need to in store with his supplies. You can tell it's working out because there are usually a few people in there playing and painting, and they all buy stuff from him just to keep it going. I traded for most of my army but I bought DV from him and I'll buy other stuff like a case and a Dark Shroud from there in the future just because he's a cool guy.

I've heard some good things about Denver, I've only been up their once as I live in south boulder, but it seems pretty nice.

 Luciferian wrote:

See, it's hard to argue that when you treat your customers this way instead of the way the OP's LGS treated him, you're going to make them happier than you would have otherwise. As a result they're going to remember how well you treated them and how awesome your business is and they're going to come back, as well as spread the good word on places like this. Sit on top of units like a miserly dragon and price gouge, and they're going to have the opposite reaction. It's pretty simple.

Absolutely - I've been a loyal customer of The Guardtower nearly 20 years now, from snot-nosed teen days, to making time to drive an hour back now that I'm nearly forty, and they remain the best I've seen. Some of the staff have been there the whole time too, and they remain incredibly knowledgeable about what's going on in the industry. If they have a product known for packing issues they advise you of it at the register and let you open it on the spot before you pay to ensure you're really getting what you're paying for. They clear slow-moving inventory regularly with an "unloved" games section in the back that offers heavy discounts. The stock is incredibly reliable.

One time, I pre-ordered the Deluxe Ogre edition, since I'd heard rumors Steve Jackson they was going to make one. I skipped the kickstarter, and over the years forgot about it. Six years later, I get a phone call - my preorder was ready. They kept accurate records of preorders for a product that didn't yet exist for six years.

That said, I do live quite a distance away now, and have two game stores in my town. Whenever I can, I give them my business now. They're not as good as the Guardtower, they don't offer the discounts of the Guardtower. But, they're the local community, and that means if I want to be able to buy GW paints any day of the week on demand, I also need to make sure those highschoolers playing Magic on Friday's have a place to do it.

Now, if GW would just make a zillion more Armageddon boxes, so locals would be excited about it, and I would have easier access to opponents...

 Talizvar wrote:

Oggthrok wrote:
Never have I felt so lucky, to have the privilege of buying expensive plastic models.

I will shout out to "J&J Cards and Collectables" in Waterloo Canada.
It is absolutely insane how they get ahold of stuff and keep the prices low.
They have no gaming space, that is the only legitimate complaint.
If I call up ahead of a release and ask for a reserve, they do it every time and have no issues waiting two weeks for pickup.
It helps their main tabletop gaming guy seems to remember everyone and knows who reliably picks up their stuff.
Actually going there tonight, wonder if they still have SWA kits...

I love this store! I used to date a girl who lived in Waterloo, and she told me about the place so I'd have a nerd shop to visit while staying with her. I haven't been back in years, but I'm glad to hear it's still going strong.