Once again, I am very excited about the upcoming 8th edition release. We now know that AV is a thing of the past, and that both vehicles and MCs alike are going to have toughness values. Dreadnoughts are going to be T 7, 8 wounds and 3+ armor.
They have not yet released the stats for drop pods and rhinos, but I don't think that this would be too difficult to figure out, since the current relevant stats of rhinos, drop pods and dreadnoughts aren't all that dissimilar.
I think it would be reasonable to expect a rhino that's anywhere from T6-8, 6-9 wounds and probably 3+ armor as well. The drop pod will probably be slightly tougher.
Here is my question:
Is the prospect of a significantly more durable rhino enough to shift the space marine meta away from drop pods?
Assuming that drop pods and rhinos had a stat line equivalent to the dreadnought stat-line that they released, which would you be more likely to use?
What I mean.. is that what are the special rules associated with these two..
Rumor is you will be able to charge out of a Rhino... But if you can also charge out of a drop pod.. then I cant see a reason why you would pick a Rhino over a drop pod..
But my assumption is still based on current ruleset
Assuming that drop pods and rhinos had a stat line equivalent to the dreadnought stat-line that they released, which would you be more likely to use?
What I mean.. is that what are the special rules associated with these two..
Rumor is you will be able to charge out of a Rhino... But if you can also charge out of a drop pod.. then I cant see a reason why you would pick a Rhino over a drop pod..
But my assumption is still based on current ruleset
Wont know more until 8th ed is actually released
This is a fair point. To be clear, I'm assuming in advance that rhinos retain the ability to allow troops to embark on them and fire out of them, whereas drop pods force you to disembark troops immediately upon deep striking.
I think the fact that rhinos will have greater durability might make "drive around and shoot" a more viable option.
And even for assaults, you can't re-embark an assault unit into a drop pod. You can, however, re-embark an assault unit into a rhino.
This is a fair point. To be clear, I'm assuming in advance that rhinos retain the ability to allow troops to embark on them and fire out of them, whereas drop pods force you to disembark troops immediately upon deep striking.
I think the fact that rhinos will have greater durability might make "drive around and shoot" a more viable option.
And even for assaults, you can't re-embark an assault unit into a drop pod. You can, however, re-embark an assault unit into a rhino.
meh if you can charge straight away.. depending on your list there is no point to stay in them.. It would likely see marine lists become more assault focused as you are pretty much garneted first hit in assault if you charge
Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone. They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.
Unless you're not allowed to shot when hopping out of a DP or you can scatter off the board... not sure how gameplay rules or stats would effect the utility of Dropods...
So that leaves only cost... which I have no clue how that will work in 8E
Grimgold wrote: Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone.
This is a good point. On the other hand, the skyhammer was also a popular formation.
They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.
Even at T6 and 4+ base armor save, assuming the current damage chart, that's still only wounding on 6s, and it still needs to bypass a 5+ armor save.
10/1 X 2/3 X 1/6 X 2/3 = 40/54 or 20/27 unsaved wounds per 10 bolter shots.
Then the question is: how many wounds will a rhino have?
I'm thinking that this presents a relatively safe/durable method of transporting marines across the field, at least for a couple of turns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, has anybody here considered the impact that these changes are going to have on Ork trukk spam?
Grimgold wrote: Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone.
Says what? Has GW said no more free unit formations? GW isn't likely to remove formations all together from 8th seeing they are pushing them all the time in AOS and help them sell models so...
Grimgold wrote: Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone.
Says what? Has GW said no more free unit formations? GW isn't likely to remove formations all together from 8th seeing they are pushing them all the time in AOS and help them sell models so...
AoS pays points for their formations. You can easily expect 40k to start doing the same
Grimgold wrote: Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone.
Says what? Has GW said no more free unit formations? GW isn't likely to remove formations all together from 8th seeing they are pushing them all the time in AOS and help them sell models so...
AoS pays points for their formations. You can easily expect 40k to start doing the same
Is price of formation though same as drop pods? I don't think so. Especially since amount of units isn't fixed. Plus don't think rhino/razorback/drop pod costed same price either(albeit don't have SM codex)
It might add some extra tax but it will still be huge discount
Grimgold wrote: Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone. They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.
Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.
Grimgold wrote: Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone. They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.
Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.
So, which do you think you would find more strategically viable? Drop pod or rhino?
Rippy wrote: Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .
Me too!
Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.
Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Metal boxes need to be viable.
I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.
Grimgold wrote: Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone. They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.
Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.
So, which do you think you would find more strategically viable? Drop pod or rhino?
Depends on points, stats and how you run the rest of your army. Given that we know absoutely nothing about any of these things, any speculation is just that - pure guesswork that has no basis in reality. Are drop pods currently too cheap? Probably. Will they get balanced in points or ability? Possibly. Will rhinos and pods have the same carry capacity? Will you be able to charge out of both, one or neither? Will they be the same points? WIll they have the same armour? Will pods still have drop pod assault? Will being outside a transport be a death sentance like it is now? Will marines be worth taking over scouts, therefore negating the entire argument? Will there be a formation/warscoll/whatever that makes one or the other a better choice for certain army compositions? Until we know these things, we can't really say one way or the other.
Having said all that - If pods retain their DPA rules, there will almost always be a reason to take one since putting models down somewhere with absolute certainty T1 is almost always going to be useful. Hopefully they're a bit more balanced than they are currently without going too far the other direction as, personally, the drop pod is such an iconic marine thing that I'd hate to see them disappear due to overnerfing.
Rippy wrote: Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .
Me too!
Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.
Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Metal boxes need to be viable.
I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.
So the same with all other armies transports right?
So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents
Sisters get free Immolators
Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks
Rippy wrote: Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .
Me too!
Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.
Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Metal boxes need to be viable.
I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.
So the same with all other armies transports right?
So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents
Sisters get free Immolators
Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks
etc
Trukks, yeah. Immolators aren't primarily a transport vehicle. It's a weapon's platform. It's the Sister Razorback. While iconic, it is its own weapon, not a self evident part of a sisters unit. A standard Sister unit doesn't even fit in it. Maybe as a free include to an expensive elite unit, sure.
Rippy wrote: Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .
Me too!
Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.
Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Metal boxes need to be viable.
I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.
So the same with all other armies transports right?
So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents
Sisters get free Immolators
Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks
etc
Trukks, yeah. Immolators aren't primarily a transport vehicle. It's a weapon's platform. It's the Sister Razorback. While iconic, it is its own weapon, not a self evident part of a sisters unit. A standard Sister unit doesn't even fit in it. Maybe as a free include to an expensive elite unit, sure.
So Sisters get free Rhinos - right?
Guard free Chimera's
Rippy wrote: Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .
Me too!
Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.
Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Metal boxes need to be viable.
I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.
So the same with all other armies transports right?
So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents
Sisters get free Immolators
Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks
etc
Trukks, yeah. Immolators aren't primarily a transport vehicle. It's a weapon's platform. It's the Sister Razorback. While iconic, it is its own weapon, not a self evident part of a sisters unit. A standard Sister unit doesn't even fit in it. Maybe as a free include to an expensive elite unit, sure.
So Sisters get free Rhinos - right?
Guard free Chimera's
I would assume that non-walkers would omit a Strength characteristic, or at least have 0 attacks in CC. Possibly a tank-shock or Ram would include something to do with the vehicles Str vs T.
Rippy wrote: Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .
Me too!
Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.
Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Metal boxes need to be viable.
I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.
So the same with all other armies transports right?
So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents Sisters get free Immolators Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks
etc
Trukks, yeah. Immolators aren't primarily a transport vehicle. It's a weapon's platform. It's the Sister Razorback. While iconic, it is its own weapon, not a self evident part of a sisters unit. A standard Sister unit doesn't even fit in it. Maybe as a free include to an expensive elite unit, sure.
So Sisters get free Rhinos - right? Guard free Chimera's
An argument could be made that a full strengh squad could qualify for a free transport. Perhaps limitations or qualifiers could be in place for free transports. Such as, the unit must be a Troops choice, must be at full strength, must cost over a certain total value, may only choose X and Y as the free transport, must remove Jump Packs (a la Assault Squads in 5th Ed)
Edit: Obviously, where a unit's max size exceeds the transport's capacity (Ork Boyz, 10-30 models, Trukks carry 12) the qualifier would change to something like "If the unit has 12 or less models and X, they may take a Trukk for free, otherwise must pay"
Drop Pods with Dreadnaughts are my favorite way of taking the heat off my TWC and other mobile units.
Rhinos being able to dump charging infantry on the enemy's doorstep is definitely something I'm definitely looking forwards to but they still don't have the impact of a pair of Dreads saying G'day on the first turn.
If the Pod formations go belly up I'll happily nab the sales on ebay.
Rippy wrote: Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .
Me too!
Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.
Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.
Metal boxes need to be viable.
I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.
Why free? I can see an argument for a mandatory transport, but not for a free one.
Many units in the game come with a sergeant option, but many others always come with one. And this mandatory sarge isn't free. If certain units always come with a transport (the codex entry listing a 5-man squad + a rhino as the basic composition), then they should definitely cost 5x the price of a guy + the price of the transport when it's taken by itself. Or the codex entry could just say "this unit must buy a dedicated transport".
Dakka Wolf wrote: You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.
Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.
You can get any unit anywhere on the table turn one, then camp an objective with 12/12/12 3HP AND annoy them with a bolter and it costs 35 points.
If you don't think that's the best transport in 40K, you should probably consider every unit ever transported and see how much more efficient it would be if it were instead using a drop pod.
Dakka Wolf wrote: You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.
Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.
You realize the value of pod is not being gun but by delivering squad accurately while being good objective camper to boot that's actually far from fraqile for 35 pts low threat unit. It soaks up ridiculous amount of fire for being 35 pts model that has already done it's primary function but due to taking objectives(especially when with obj secured) cannot be ignored either...
Being able to bypass the entire part of the game where maneuver and the like is important by just being able to show up and charge what you like and negate them being able to respond is a pretty poor set of rules IMO.
Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.
Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.
Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.
Ah yes the overhyping of drop pod thread again. I frequently choose Rhinos over drop pods right now, as for BA, drop pods are commonly suicide machines. If you think AV 12 HP 3 open top is hard to destroy, you need to rethink your lists.
Pick any non-skyhammer non-battle company list then. But I've even gotten the drop on skyhammer before. Pods aren't that good when you are paying for them. Your guys are stuck on foot, and probably dead meat. I think they are best used in regular lists for dreadnoughts.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.
Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.
Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.
I think you don't understand the point.
The Drop Pod is crazy good, even if the only good thing you can put in it is grav centurions.
Think about any other unit in the game worth being transported and think about putting it in a drop pod vs their transport.
That's the point I'm making.
And "easily destroyed" is pure bs, have you noticed how having rear armor 12 makes vehicles infinitely tougher in CC?
Come on... the thing is 35 points and has already served its purpose, it takes way too much attention to deal with effectively.
I'd love it if my Chaos marines could charge out of Rhinos, or that said Rhino could get across the board without being easily taken out and also give away first blood in the process. I don't have a problem with drop pods as such but there needs to be some, dare I say it... balance.
Also I hope to God that whatever happens with eighth edition they stop giving out free units based on formations. Everything should have a point cost.
Lobukia wrote: Unless you're not allowed to shot when hopping out of a DP or you can scatter off the board... not sure how gameplay rules or stats would effect the utility of Dropods...
So that leaves only cost... which I have no clue how that will work in 8E
We could see a YUGE resurgence in rhinos if I could kill the marines in a drop pod with my Interceptor units.
Drop pods are pay points to deploy the marines where you want, safely and accurately-ish. The fact they can shoot and suck up shooting is incidental to that. They will have their uses, but if they cost points (and all indications are they will) they won't be ubiquitous. Does it really matter if your tac squad deploys half way up the board, probably not, but it would be very important to your assault squads, assuming they are viable in this edition (which seems likely).
When I said less tough I meant rhinos, the idea that someone would shoot at drop pods is weird for me, I'm not afraid of an immobile storm bolter., and I certainly wouldn't waste my shooting on it.
Grimgold wrote: Drop pods are pay points to deploy the marines where you want, safely and accurately-ish. The fact they can shoot and suck up shooting is incidental to that. They will have their uses, but if they cost points (and all indications are they will) they won't be ubiquitous. Does it really matter if your tac squad deploys half way up the board, probably not, but it would be very important to your assault squads, assuming they are viable in this edition (which seems likely).
When I said less tough I meant rhinos, the idea that someone would shoot at drop pods is weird for me, I'm not afraid of an immobile storm bolter., and I certainly wouldn't waste my shooting on it.
I don't think anybody is worried about the storm bolter, it's the fact it can score objectives
The entire gladius is basically ob sec, so an immobile semi-randomly deployed piece of kit that was also obsec isn't a big deal. The odds of getting the same objective twice is slim, and since they will score the objective on the turn they land, so I never really had much reason to shoot at them. Besides if you are deploying your drop pod troops so the drop pod can secure and objective you might not be using the troops therein to their maximum effect.
Assuming that drop pods and rhinos had a stat line equivalent to the dreadnought stat-line that they released, which would you be more likely to use?
What I mean.. is that what are the special rules associated with these two..
Rumor is you will be able to charge out of a Rhino... But if you can also charge out of a drop pod.. then I cant see a reason why you would pick a Rhino over a drop pod..
But my assumption is still based on current ruleset
Wont know more until 8th ed is actually released
And so did the age of turn 1 melee alpha strike begin.
Wouldnt charge from vehicles make Rhinos better than pods? With a Rhino you can move/disembark then charge which gives a level of flexibility.
Unless they also allow assaulting from reserves as well as vehicles, you have to sit there with a thumb up your rear for a turn when podding in (unless using one of the fancy dread pods) before assault.
Lobukia wrote: Unless you're not allowed to shot when hopping out of a DP or you can scatter off the board... not sure how gameplay rules or stats would effect the utility of Dropods...
So that leaves only cost... which I have no clue how that will work in 8E
We could see a YUGE resurgence in rhinos if I could kill the marines in a drop pod with my Interceptor units.
If there is such a thing as interceptor units
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: One could allow assault from reserves, but disallow from deep strike reserve, which would be appropriate, imo.
Dakka Wolf wrote: You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.
Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.
You can get any unit anywhere on the table turn one, then camp an objective with 12/12/12 3HP AND annoy them with a bolter and it costs 35 points.
If you don't think that's the best transport in 40K, you should probably consider every unit ever transported and see how much more efficient it would be if it were instead using a drop pod.
Speaking as a transportless Ad Mech player here, Drop Pods are freaking awesome to me.
I will be happy with even current priced drop pods, but one wish I have:
Take away Inertial guidance system and no scatter removal items. Like this it has been many many years with Chaos already, Imperiums turn to feel the burn! If they want to not scatter, force drop pod players to either deep strike conservatively or use their command points to reroll the scatter dice. This is only fair.
Grimgold wrote: The entire gladius is basically ob sec, so an immobile semi-randomly deployed piece of kit that was also obsec isn't a big deal. The odds of getting the same objective twice is slim, and since they will score the objective on the turn they land, so I never really had much reason to shoot at them. Besides if you are deploying your drop pod troops so the drop pod can secure and objective you might not be using the troops therein to their maximum effect.
The drop pods also prevent your opponent from scoring objectives. It's a pretty big deal.
Ghorgul wrote: I will be happy with even current priced drop pods, but one wish I have:
Take away Inertial guidance system and no scatter removal items. Like this it has been many many years with Chaos already, Imperiums turn to feel the burn! If they want to not scatter, force drop pod players to either deep strike conservatively or use their command points to reroll the scatter dice. This is only fair.
Sounds likely that scatter dice will be gone too. No templates = no need for scatter dice
Dakka Wolf wrote: Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.
Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.
Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.
I think you don't understand the point.
The Drop Pod is crazy good, even if the only good thing you can put in it is grav centurions.
Think about any other unit in the game worth being transported and think about putting it in a drop pod vs their transport.
That's the point I'm making.
And "easily destroyed" is pure bs, have you noticed how having rear armor 12 makes vehicles infinitely tougher in CC?
Come on... the thing is 35 points and has already served its purpose, it takes way too much attention to deal with effectively.
Maybe the people I'm playing against are luckier than you or maybe they're just better but I have never seen a Drop Pod survive a game, that's kind of what happens when you drop them in enemy territory.
I've also seen them unable to deploy in enemy territory - a Drop Pod needs a minimum six inch diameter gap to put down, more if you plan on deploying units from it, for an army with a decent amount of models thwarting Drop Pods isn't hard in an 1850 point match.
Ghorgul wrote: I will be happy with even current priced drop pods, but one wish I have:
Take away Inertial guidance system and no scatter removal items. Like this it has been many many years with Chaos already, Imperiums turn to feel the burn! If they want to not scatter, force drop pod players to either deep strike conservatively or use their command points to reroll the scatter dice. This is only fair.
Sounds likely that scatter dice will be gone too. No templates = no need for scatter dice
I am pretty sure they said directly that scatter dice are gone, but haven't clarified what mechanic will replace it.
Oh right i remember a friend describing one of the new dwarf boats being basically a drop pod, how does that work in AOS? might give a little bit of insight.
Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.
I always found it stupid that a drop pod has superior armour to a Rhino/Dreadnought .
Especially as it doesn't even need it. Once it's there it's job is done
Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.
I always found it stupid that a drop pod has superior armour to a Rhino/Dreadnought .
Especially as it doesn't even need it. Once it's there it's job is done
It should naturally have a ton of armor considering its making planetary entire it would be scookum AF but once the doors are down i highly doubt it needs to be the same armor as a rhino. probably way less in fact.
Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.
I always found it stupid that a drop pod has superior armour to a Rhino/Dreadnought .
Especially as it doesn't even need it. Once it's there it's job is done
It should naturally have a ton of armor considering its making planetary entire it would be scookum AF but once the doors are down i highly doubt it needs to be the same armor as a rhino. probably way less in fact.
Exactly, with it's doors closed sure it makes sense.
But once landed and open it should be about as durable as an Ork Trukk
Grimgold wrote: Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone. They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.
Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.
So, which do you think you would find more strategically viable? Drop pod or rhino?
Depends on what you're putting in it.
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Martel732 wrote: People are welcome to pod their centurions because that means they are not in a death star. Drop pods can mitigated/ defeated in deployment. Come on.
What? Every centurion star ever comes in a drop pod. Drop Pod Cent star came in 10th at adepticon a month ago.
In AoS, the Stormcast units can teleport in via a roll of a 3+. If successful, they can come in wherever they want, as long as they're 9" away from the enemy. With the possible (most likely even) removal of the scatter dice, I can see drop pods being like this, as I'm not sure how else they'd rule in a scatter system. Which means drop pods could be very powerful.
This is just speculation though, we'll have to wait and see.
Tiberius501 wrote: In AoS, the Stormcast units can teleport in via a roll of a 3+. If successful, they can come in wherever they want, as long as they're 9" away from the enemy. With the possible (most likely even) removal of the scatter dice, I can see drop pods being like this, as I'm not sure how else they'd rule in a scatter system. Which means drop pods could be very powerful.
This is just speculation though, we'll have to wait and see.
I imagine that will be the rules for normal deep striking, drop pods will, of course, be better, because of inertial guidance and needing a reason to exists. Maybe they will do damage to a unit on the way in, ala swooping hawks, or can land closer to enemy units, they will have a reason to exists.
The only thing we can actually compare them to are things in AoS at this point, as the rules are definitely taking a hard turn in that direction. While there aren't drop pods in that game, there are lots of "deep strike" units/formations. They tend to be powerful in that game, although not free. I'd assume they'd work a lot like some of the storm cast abilities that confer similar benefits.
1st turn alpha strikes are definitely a thing in AoS, I'd expect them to be even more prevalent in 8th because of all the extra shooting.
Personally, I'm hoping that CSM actually -get- drop pods.
Anecdotally, I saw plenty of pods in SM armies back in 5th ed, before the days of the Skyhammer/Gladius formations. They have always been a tactically sound vehicle for nabbing objectives, as well as putting weapons where they could do the most hurt relatively safely. They also functioned as the proverbial distraction Carnifex. A regular opponent of mine would routinely run Salamander tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer and lay down twin-linked template death in my deployment zone. Another tactic from that era was Logan and relentless Long Fangs. Neither were particularly fun to deal with.
Obviously, them becoming free w/ formations, and the grav-cents becoming auto-includes for SM armies, the prevalence has increased. But, even if they're not free, a 35pt (assuming cost remains the same in 8th) is still an excellent vehicle to get your models near-ish where you need them to be - whether that be snagging an objective, taking out a high value target, or simply to be that distraction Carnifex.
If Rhino's have a similar stat-line to Dreads, it's not inconceivable to use them as mobile bunkers (again). Were I playing a loyalist SM army, I could see the merits of using both. Tac squads in pods, coming down for objectives, and assault marines sans-jump packs in Rhino's.
It's really too soon to tell yet, however, as we don't have all the information necessary to make any clear call. We still need to know, 1) How does deep strike work, 2) How will deep strike work for drop pods (drop pod assault still a thing, can they still arrive T1, etc.), 3) Can we assault from reserve, 4) Can we assault from deep strike (god I hope not, except maybe only in the absolute rarest of situations/units) 5) and the most important one of all - how much will they cost.
I've always thought Drop Pods should count as destroyed once they've landed and passengers disembarked. Would of made facing them a lot more 'fair' But oh well.
No I don't think meta is going to change to much. Your still going to have Drop Pods bombing, Riptide wings, Knight Spam, etc.etc. yadda yadda.
Crazyterran wrote: In AoS, you can deepstrike without scattering, but typically must be at least 9" away from the enemy.
Perhaps pods will be the same, to balance them out? Or maybe Drop Pods will disallow assaulting when getting out of them, to balance them out a bit.
Or Drop Pods allow assaulting out of them while dropping without a pod doesn't let you do that, to make pods have a reason to exist. Then again, pods are the only reason why some units can drop at all, so there is their reason.
The "Ongoing Reserves" rule is the one I want to see changed massively. What kind of bass ackwards general has such horrible control over his reserves that they come on the field nilly willy, sometimes half a battle later than he wanted them, and sometimes stumbling on the field a bit early, and never according to his plan except on accident? That's not reserves, that's belated reinforcements, and sure that can be a game mechanic, but don't call them reserves! Reserves are standing just off the field, waiting for the signal from the general. I can't count the amount of games I've seen won or lost on bad reserve rolls.
Crazyterran wrote: In AoS, you can deepstrike without scattering, but typically must be at least 9" away from the enemy.
Perhaps pods will be the same, to balance them out? Or maybe Drop Pods will disallow assaulting when getting out of them, to balance them out a bit.
With the new tactical retreating rules revealing in the Movement article, I don't think this is under powered anymore. If you drop a pod in the back line in the middle of their army, you have one turn to try and take out a squad before you get shot to death.
The "Ongoing Reserves" rule is the one I want to see changed massively. What kind of bass ackwards general has such horrible control over his reserves that they come on the field nilly willy, sometimes half a battle later than he wanted them, and sometimes stumbling on the field a bit early, and never according to his plan except on accident? That's not reserves, that's belated reinforcements, and sure that can be a game mechanic, but don't call them reserves! Reserves are standing just off the field, waiting for the signal from the general. I can't count the amount of games I've seen won or lost on bad reserve rolls.
Quite few generals in history and fiction actually - life is rarely as neat as it is on the games table.
Most games represent a small part of a larger campaign - a commander gets what reserves can be spared when they can be - he or she is likely to be one of several competing voices crying out for help.
Vryce wrote: Personally, I'm hoping that CSM actually -get- drop pods.
Anecdotally, I saw plenty of pods in SM armies back in 5th ed, before the days of the Skyhammer/Gladius formations. They have always been a tactically sound vehicle for nabbing objectives, as well as putting weapons where they could do the most hurt relatively safely. They also functioned as the proverbial distraction Carnifex. A regular opponent of mine would routinely run Salamander tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer and lay down twin-linked template death in my deployment zone. Another tactic from that era was Logan and relentless Long Fangs. Neither were particularly fun to deal with.
Obviously, them becoming free w/ formations, and the grav-cents becoming auto-includes for SM armies, the prevalence has increased. But, even if they're not free, a 35pt (assuming cost remains the same in 8th) is still an excellent vehicle to get your models near-ish where you need them to be - whether that be snagging an objective, taking out a high value target, or simply to be that distraction Carnifex.
If Rhino's have a similar stat-line to Dreads, it's not inconceivable to use them as mobile bunkers (again). Were I playing a loyalist SM army, I could see the merits of using both. Tac squads in pods, coming down for objectives, and assault marines sans-jump packs in Rhino's.
It's really too soon to tell yet, however, as we don't have all the information necessary to make any clear call. We still need to know, 1) How does deep strike work, 2) How will deep strike work for drop pods (drop pod assault still a thing, can they still arrive T1, etc.), 3) Can we assault from reserve, 4) Can we assault from deep strike (god I hope not, except maybe only in the absolute rarest of situations/units) 5) and the most important one of all - how much will they cost.
Is there a fluff reason why CSM don't have Drop Pods? They have that melta balst pod, so what stops them having a standard version?
Vryce wrote: Personally, I'm hoping that CSM actually -get- drop pods.
Anecdotally, I saw plenty of pods in SM armies back in 5th ed, before the days of the Skyhammer/Gladius formations. They have always been a tactically sound vehicle for nabbing objectives, as well as putting weapons where they could do the most hurt relatively safely. They also functioned as the proverbial distraction Carnifex. A regular opponent of mine would routinely run Salamander tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer and lay down twin-linked template death in my deployment zone. Another tactic from that era was Logan and relentless Long Fangs. Neither were particularly fun to deal with.
Obviously, them becoming free w/ formations, and the grav-cents becoming auto-includes for SM armies, the prevalence has increased. But, even if they're not free, a 35pt (assuming cost remains the same in 8th) is still an excellent vehicle to get your models near-ish where you need them to be - whether that be snagging an objective, taking out a high value target, or simply to be that distraction Carnifex.
If Rhino's have a similar stat-line to Dreads, it's not inconceivable to use them as mobile bunkers (again). Were I playing a loyalist SM army, I could see the merits of using both. Tac squads in pods, coming down for objectives, and assault marines sans-jump packs in Rhino's.
It's really too soon to tell yet, however, as we don't have all the information necessary to make any clear call. We still need to know, 1) How does deep strike work, 2) How will deep strike work for drop pods (drop pod assault still a thing, can they still arrive T1, etc.), 3) Can we assault from reserve, 4) Can we assault from deep strike (god I hope not, except maybe only in the absolute rarest of situations/units) 5) and the most important one of all - how much will they cost.
Is there a fluff reason why CSM don't have Drop Pods? They have that melta balst pod, so what stops them having a standard version?
Vryce wrote: Personally, I'm hoping that CSM actually -get- drop pods.
Anecdotally, I saw plenty of pods in SM armies back in 5th ed, before the days of the Skyhammer/Gladius formations. They have always been a tactically sound vehicle for nabbing objectives, as well as putting weapons where they could do the most hurt relatively safely. They also functioned as the proverbial distraction Carnifex. A regular opponent of mine would routinely run Salamander tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer and lay down twin-linked template death in my deployment zone. Another tactic from that era was Logan and relentless Long Fangs. Neither were particularly fun to deal with.
Obviously, them becoming free w/ formations, and the grav-cents becoming auto-includes for SM armies, the prevalence has increased. But, even if they're not free, a 35pt (assuming cost remains the same in 8th) is still an excellent vehicle to get your models near-ish where you need them to be - whether that be snagging an objective, taking out a high value target, or simply to be that distraction Carnifex.
If Rhino's have a similar stat-line to Dreads, it's not inconceivable to use them as mobile bunkers (again). Were I playing a loyalist SM army, I could see the merits of using both. Tac squads in pods, coming down for objectives, and assault marines sans-jump packs in Rhino's.
It's really too soon to tell yet, however, as we don't have all the information necessary to make any clear call. We still need to know, 1) How does deep strike work, 2) How will deep strike work for drop pods (drop pod assault still a thing, can they still arrive T1, etc.), 3) Can we assault from reserve, 4) Can we assault from deep strike (god I hope not, except maybe only in the absolute rarest of situations/units) 5) and the most important one of all - how much will they cost.
Is there a fluff reason why CSM don't have Drop Pods? They have that melta balst pod, so what stops them having a standard version?
KingmanHighborn wrote: I've always thought Drop Pods should count as destroyed once they've landed and passengers disembarked. Would of made facing them a lot more 'fair' But oh well.
No I don't think meta is going to change to much. Your still going to have Drop Pods bombing, Riptide wings, Knight Spam, etc.etc. yadda yadda.
Vryce wrote: Personally, I'm hoping that CSM actually -get- drop pods.
Anecdotally, I saw plenty of pods in SM armies back in 5th ed, before the days of the Skyhammer/Gladius formations. They have always been a tactically sound vehicle for nabbing objectives, as well as putting weapons where they could do the most hurt relatively safely. They also functioned as the proverbial distraction Carnifex. A regular opponent of mine would routinely run Salamander tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer and lay down twin-linked template death in my deployment zone. Another tactic from that era was Logan and relentless Long Fangs. Neither were particularly fun to deal with.
Obviously, them becoming free w/ formations, and the grav-cents becoming auto-includes for SM armies, the prevalence has increased. But, even if they're not free, a 35pt (assuming cost remains the same in 8th) is still an excellent vehicle to get your models near-ish where you need them to be - whether that be snagging an objective, taking out a high value target, or simply to be that distraction Carnifex.
If Rhino's have a similar stat-line to Dreads, it's not inconceivable to use them as mobile bunkers (again). Were I playing a loyalist SM army, I could see the merits of using both. Tac squads in pods, coming down for objectives, and assault marines sans-jump packs in Rhino's.
It's really too soon to tell yet, however, as we don't have all the information necessary to make any clear call. We still need to know, 1) How does deep strike work, 2) How will deep strike work for drop pods (drop pod assault still a thing, can they still arrive T1, etc.), 3) Can we assault from reserve, 4) Can we assault from deep strike (god I hope not, except maybe only in the absolute rarest of situations/units) 5) and the most important one of all - how much will they cost.
Is there a fluff reason why CSM don't have Drop Pods? They have that melta balst pod, so what stops them having a standard version?
No reason has ever been given. It's not like assault cannons, storm bolters, and storm shields, that were developed/refined after the HH. Legions utilised pods extensively, and you can have them in your traitor legion armies in 30k. But CSM don't have them, because reasons.
Vryce wrote: Personally, I'm hoping that CSM actually -get- drop pods.
Anecdotally, I saw plenty of pods in SM armies back in 5th ed, before the days of the Skyhammer/Gladius formations. They have always been a tactically sound vehicle for nabbing objectives, as well as putting weapons where they could do the most hurt relatively safely. They also functioned as the proverbial distraction Carnifex. A regular opponent of mine would routinely run Salamander tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer and lay down twin-linked template death in my deployment zone. Another tactic from that era was Logan and relentless Long Fangs. Neither were particularly fun to deal with.
Obviously, them becoming free w/ formations, and the grav-cents becoming auto-includes for SM armies, the prevalence has increased. But, even if they're not free, a 35pt (assuming cost remains the same in 8th) is still an excellent vehicle to get your models near-ish where you need them to be - whether that be snagging an objective, taking out a high value target, or simply to be that distraction Carnifex.
If Rhino's have a similar stat-line to Dreads, it's not inconceivable to use them as mobile bunkers (again). Were I playing a loyalist SM army, I could see the merits of using both. Tac squads in pods, coming down for objectives, and assault marines sans-jump packs in Rhino's.
It's really too soon to tell yet, however, as we don't have all the information necessary to make any clear call. We still need to know, 1) How does deep strike work, 2) How will deep strike work for drop pods (drop pod assault still a thing, can they still arrive T1, etc.), 3) Can we assault from reserve, 4) Can we assault from deep strike (god I hope not, except maybe only in the absolute rarest of situations/units) 5) and the most important one of all - how much will they cost.
Is there a fluff reason why CSM don't have Drop Pods? They have that melta balst pod, so what stops them having a standard version?
No reason has ever been given. It's not like assault cannons, storm bolters, and storm shields, that were developed/refined after the HH. Legions utilised pods extensively, and you can have them in your traitor legion armies in 30k. But CSM don't have them, because reasons.
Because for some reason they were really pushing up renegade warbands that have nothing but the bolters and power armor strapped to their back for a while thanks to 4th edition Thorpe and 6th edition Kelly
Vryce wrote: Personally, I'm hoping that CSM actually -get- drop pods.
Anecdotally, I saw plenty of pods in SM armies back in 5th ed, before the days of the Skyhammer/Gladius formations. They have always been a tactically sound vehicle for nabbing objectives, as well as putting weapons where they could do the most hurt relatively safely. They also functioned as the proverbial distraction Carnifex. A regular opponent of mine would routinely run Salamander tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer and lay down twin-linked template death in my deployment zone. Another tactic from that era was Logan and relentless Long Fangs. Neither were particularly fun to deal with.
Obviously, them becoming free w/ formations, and the grav-cents becoming auto-includes for SM armies, the prevalence has increased. But, even if they're not free, a 35pt (assuming cost remains the same in 8th) is still an excellent vehicle to get your models near-ish where you need them to be - whether that be snagging an objective, taking out a high value target, or simply to be that distraction Carnifex.
If Rhino's have a similar stat-line to Dreads, it's not inconceivable to use them as mobile bunkers (again). Were I playing a loyalist SM army, I could see the merits of using both. Tac squads in pods, coming down for objectives, and assault marines sans-jump packs in Rhino's.
It's really too soon to tell yet, however, as we don't have all the information necessary to make any clear call. We still need to know, 1) How does deep strike work, 2) How will deep strike work for drop pods (drop pod assault still a thing, can they still arrive T1, etc.), 3) Can we assault from reserve, 4) Can we assault from deep strike (god I hope not, except maybe only in the absolute rarest of situations/units) 5) and the most important one of all - how much will they cost.
Is there a fluff reason why CSM don't have Drop Pods? They have that melta balst pod, so what stops them having a standard version?
No reason has ever been given. It's not like assault cannons, storm bolters, and storm shields, that were developed/refined after the HH. Legions utilised pods extensively, and you can have them in your traitor legion armies in 30k. But CSM don't have them, because reasons.
Because for some reason they were really pushing up renegade warbands that have nothing but the bolters and power armor strapped to their back for a while thanks to 4th edition Thorpe and 6th edition Kelly
Yeah, it's been a sad decline. These renegades managed to tear away from the Imperium, taking the entire contets of their armory's, relics of battle a millenia old, and fleets of warships - they just... jettisoned all the drop pods first.
Martel732 wrote: Ah yes the overhyping of drop pod thread again. I frequently choose Rhinos over drop pods right now, as for BA, drop pods are commonly suicide machines. If you think AV 12 HP 3 open top is hard to destroy, you need to rethink your lists.
It's not hard to kill per se(well except orks struggle with it at range) but it's taking improportionate amount of fire to take down one dirt cheap(or free!) drop pod _that has already archieved it's primary function_.
It's like firing tomahawk missile at an individual soldier. Waste of resources. Sure the soldier is dead. But you just spent valuable and limited in number missile. Even US can't afford war with that sort of resource usage! Drop pod is doing it's job fine if it takes say 100 pts unit to take it out _when it's already archieved it's primary goal_.
Vryce wrote: Personally, I'm hoping that CSM actually -get- drop pods.
Anecdotally, I saw plenty of pods in SM armies back in 5th ed, before the days of the Skyhammer/Gladius formations. They have always been a tactically sound vehicle for nabbing objectives, as well as putting weapons where they could do the most hurt relatively safely. They also functioned as the proverbial distraction Carnifex. A regular opponent of mine would routinely run Salamander tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer and lay down twin-linked template death in my deployment zone. Another tactic from that era was Logan and relentless Long Fangs. Neither were particularly fun to deal with.
Obviously, them becoming free w/ formations, and the grav-cents becoming auto-includes for SM armies, the prevalence has increased. But, even if they're not free, a 35pt (assuming cost remains the same in 8th) is still an excellent vehicle to get your models near-ish where you need them to be - whether that be snagging an objective, taking out a high value target, or simply to be that distraction Carnifex.
If Rhino's have a similar stat-line to Dreads, it's not inconceivable to use them as mobile bunkers (again). Were I playing a loyalist SM army, I could see the merits of using both. Tac squads in pods, coming down for objectives, and assault marines sans-jump packs in Rhino's.
It's really too soon to tell yet, however, as we don't have all the information necessary to make any clear call. We still need to know, 1) How does deep strike work, 2) How will deep strike work for drop pods (drop pod assault still a thing, can they still arrive T1, etc.), 3) Can we assault from reserve, 4) Can we assault from deep strike (god I hope not, except maybe only in the absolute rarest of situations/units) 5) and the most important one of all - how much will they cost.
Is there a fluff reason why CSM don't have Drop Pods? They have that melta balst pod, so what stops them having a standard version?
No reason has ever been given. It's not like assault cannons, storm bolters, and storm shields, that were developed/refined after the HH. Legions utilised pods extensively, and you can have them in your traitor legion armies in 30k. But CSM don't have them, because reasons.
Because reasons is such a good cover all explanation isn't it?
Vryce wrote: Personally, I'm hoping that CSM actually -get- drop pods.
Anecdotally, I saw plenty of pods in SM armies back in 5th ed, before the days of the Skyhammer/Gladius formations. They have always been a tactically sound vehicle for nabbing objectives, as well as putting weapons where they could do the most hurt relatively safely. They also functioned as the proverbial distraction Carnifex. A regular opponent of mine would routinely run Salamander tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer and lay down twin-linked template death in my deployment zone. Another tactic from that era was Logan and relentless Long Fangs. Neither were particularly fun to deal with.
Obviously, them becoming free w/ formations, and the grav-cents becoming auto-includes for SM armies, the prevalence has increased. But, even if they're not free, a 35pt (assuming cost remains the same in 8th) is still an excellent vehicle to get your models near-ish where you need them to be - whether that be snagging an objective, taking out a high value target, or simply to be that distraction Carnifex.
If Rhino's have a similar stat-line to Dreads, it's not inconceivable to use them as mobile bunkers (again). Were I playing a loyalist SM army, I could see the merits of using both. Tac squads in pods, coming down for objectives, and assault marines sans-jump packs in Rhino's.
It's really too soon to tell yet, however, as we don't have all the information necessary to make any clear call. We still need to know, 1) How does deep strike work, 2) How will deep strike work for drop pods (drop pod assault still a thing, can they still arrive T1, etc.), 3) Can we assault from reserve, 4) Can we assault from deep strike (god I hope not, except maybe only in the absolute rarest of situations/units) 5) and the most important one of all - how much will they cost.
Is there a fluff reason why CSM don't have Drop Pods? They have that melta balst pod, so what stops them having a standard version?
No reason has ever been given. It's not like assault cannons, storm bolters, and storm shields, that were developed/refined after the HH. Legions utilised pods extensively, and you can have them in your traitor legion armies in 30k. But CSM don't have them, because reasons.
Because reasons is such a good cover all explanation isn't it?
I think the excuse is that the Dark Mechanicus either cant or wont assemble drop pods, and the Chaos Legions shot their loads during the heresy and the scouring. Its not like you have time to recover them when you are being booted out of reality.
Maybe the simpler machine spirits of drop pods gets turned into a simpler daemon, whom just eats anyone who climbs on in, rather than only one or two people.
Crazyterran wrote: I think the excuse is that the Dark Mechanicus either cant or wont assemble drop pods, and the Chaos Legions shot their loads during the heresy and the scouring. Its not like you have time to recover them when you are being booted out of reality.
Maybe the simpler machine spirits of drop pods gets turned into a simpler daemon, whom just eats anyone who climbs on in, rather than only one or two people.
More practicality it's GW's way to ensure chaos simply doesn't have everything loyals have + their own toys. That's been hard for GW long time including unique chapters of loyal marines. They never seem to get it right so that chapter isn't just base + 1.
Crazyterran wrote: I think the excuse is that the Dark Mechanicus either cant or wont assemble drop pods, and the Chaos Legions shot their loads during the heresy and the scouring. Its not like you have time to recover them when you are being booted out of reality.
Maybe the simpler machine spirits of drop pods gets turned into a simpler daemon, whom just eats anyone who climbs on in, rather than only one or two people.
More practicality it's GW's way to ensure chaos simply doesn't have everything loyals have + their own toys. That's been hard for GW long time including unique chapters of loyal marines. They never seem to get it right so that chapter isn't just base + 1.
yeah they where eaither space marines +1 or space marines -1
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KingmanHighborn wrote: I've always thought Drop Pods should count as destroyed once they've landed and passengers disembarked. Would of made facing them a lot more 'fair' But oh well.
No I don't think meta is going to change to much. Your still going to have Drop Pods bombing, Riptide wings, Knight Spam, etc.etc. yadda yadda.
problem is you DO have that stormbolter that is potentially sueful. I think what drop pods should have however is some sort of "anti-OS" rule. that basicly works like the exact oppisition of OS in that they cannot oppose enemy units captuing an area, partly because IS drop pods I've always thought to be absolutely stupid. how the hell does a DROP POD take and hold territory?
Crazyterran wrote: I think the excuse is that the Dark Mechanicus either cant or wont assemble drop pods, and the Chaos Legions shot their loads during the heresy and the scouring. Its not like you have time to recover them when you are being booted out of reality.
Maybe the simpler machine spirits of drop pods gets turned into a simpler daemon, whom just eats anyone who climbs on in, rather than only one or two people.
More practicality it's GW's way to ensure chaos simply doesn't have everything loyals have + their own toys. That's been hard for GW long time including unique chapters of loyal marines. They never seem to get it right so that chapter isn't just base + 1.
yeah they where eaither space marines +1 or space marines -1
Didn't say they have been good this way either It's thorny thing to solve when you have 2 armies where logically both have very similar units. For example no reason why dark angels wouldnt have grav weapons, centurions etc. But if dark angels have access to all the units ultramarines have why take ultramarines? (well snowflake chapter tactics help there a bit). Access to unique formation isn't much help as what if you don't take that formation? Might just as well play the other.
Similarly though on reverse if only thing dark angels would have is deathwing terminators and other than that you have restrictions, weaker etc what if you don't want to take deathwing termies? Might just as well play ultramarines.
problem is you DO have that stormbolter that is potentially sueful. I think what drop pods should have however is some sort of "anti-OS" rule. that basicly works like the exact oppisition of OS in that they cannot oppose enemy units captuing an area, partly because IS drop pods I've always thought to be absolutely stupid. how the hell does a DROP POD take and hold territory?
Drop pods not being so good at taking objectives would help a lot.
They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
Most games represent a small part of a larger campaign
MOST games? That's a pretty bold claim. I mean I can definitely see that would be a way to think of it, but I've never once thought of my games that way.
Recently I've had Belasarius Cawl in my games. I don't think he has to stand down to leave reinforcements to some other upstart.
Not to mention that we eventually get our reinforcements. Exactly the ones we asked for! So if that's the fluffy reason, then it's terrible!
But on top of that (and more importantly,) it's a stupid game mechanic. It makes using ongoing reserves a bad choice unless you're using drop pods or have modifiers and rerolls to make it more reliable. Playing the first 3 rounds with half your points is basically a loss, just because of one bad mechanic that you have some poor luck on.
Most games represent a small part of a larger campaign
MOST games? That's a pretty bold claim. I mean I can definitely see that would be a way to think of it, but I've never once thought of my games that way.
That's actually understatement. All games would be more akin.
40k battles are frigging huge with IG throwing stuff into battle in battallion scale rather than platoon or two like in 40k. There's no way 40k battles can be full battle in itself.
As it is even epic battles(as in epic 40k/armageddon) would be rather small skirmishes....
Most games represent a small part of a larger campaign
MOST games? That's a pretty bold claim. I mean I can definitely see that would be a way to think of it, but I've never once thought of my games that way.
That's actually understatement. All games would be more akin.
40k battles are frigging huge with IG throwing stuff into battle in battallion scale rather than platoon or two like in 40k. There's no way 40k battles can be full battle in itself.
As it is even epic battles(as in epic 40k/armageddon) would be rather small skirmishes....
You don't think that a small outpost can be attacked, or two scouting parties hit eachother without it being a part of an interplanetary huge mess? I've read a few books on 40k where the combat parties sent in are smaller than what I field on the table. In Skitarius they go deep into chaos territory, and the Skitarii force that lands may be twice as big at most as my army. That's for a whole planet. In the Gathering Storm, Belasarius Cawl starts on a moon where he is investigating an object while fighting off greenskins. His Skitarii force is little more than what I have in models.
Your bias towards big battles is the only thing backing your claim.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
Which is funny because Space Wolves for the longest time was Marines + 1.. and wait those unique things are what helps the Superfriends deathstar combo's.
Crazyterran wrote: In AoS, you can deepstrike without scattering, but typically must be at least 9" away from the enemy.
Perhaps pods will be the same, to balance them out? Or maybe Drop Pods will disallow assaulting when getting out of them, to balance them out a bit.
Or Drop Pods allow assaulting out of them while dropping without a pod doesn't let you do that, to make pods have a reason to exist. Then again, pods are the only reason why some units can drop at all, so there is their reason.
The "Ongoing Reserves" rule is the one I want to see changed massively. What kind of bass ackwards general has such horrible control over his reserves that they come on the field nilly willy, sometimes half a battle later than he wanted them, and sometimes stumbling on the field a bit early, and never according to his plan except on accident? That's not reserves, that's belated reinforcements, and sure that can be a game mechanic, but don't call them reserves! Reserves are standing just off the field, waiting for the signal from the general. I can't count the amount of games I've seen won or lost on bad reserve rolls.
Battle of Waterloo, Napoleonic wars. Battle of Gettysburg, American Civil War. Battle of Bastogne, WWII. To name a few of thousands.
But on top of that (and more importantly,) it's a stupid game mechanic. It makes using ongoing reserves a bad choice unless you're using drop pods or have modifiers and rerolls to make it more reliable. Playing the first 3 rounds with half your points is basically a loss, just because of one bad mechanic that you have some poor luck on.
+1. I think that reserves should be a tactical choice - i.e. you chose when they come in before the first turn is taken but after deployment. That would be a much more interesting mechanic to me because you have to try and figure out before battle starts where you'll need the reinforcement; i.e. you'd have to use reserves like actual reserves. Sure, you'd need restrictions like "reserves must enter before the start of turn 4" to restrict last second objective grabbing, but that's nothing complex. Rolling for it randomly makes no sense, and I don't really see why it's included in the rules as it does nothing but add a layer of frustration. I still expect it to be random in 8th regardless, unfortunately, but it would be great if I was wrong.
As for drop pods, I really hope they're at least viable. I get frustrated playing against them in the current era, as they're almost always just "here's my unit of grav, I'm going to melt this unit" but they are so iconic; there are few armies I think look better on the table than just after a bunch of drop pods have deployed into that wall of metal flowers. I'd agree with them being weaker though - I don't think it's a huge balance issue, but logically it makes no sense that they're harder to kill than the main Guard APC.
Deep strike I'm hoping will just copy the AoS rules. Currently, nothing uses the deep strike rules at all unless there's no chance to scatter, as the chance to mishap can almost instantly lose you the game when it goes badly. When was the last time you saw a monolith deep strike, or terminators? It's pointless for them, because it's too many points which can just either be meaningless or worse, outright destroyed.
Most games represent a small part of a larger campaign
MOST games? That's a pretty bold claim. I mean I can definitely see that would be a way to think of it, but I've never once thought of my games that way.
That's actually understatement. All games would be more akin.
40k battles are frigging huge with IG throwing stuff into battle in battallion scale rather than platoon or two like in 40k. There's no way 40k battles can be full battle in itself.
As it is even epic battles(as in epic 40k/armageddon) would be rather small skirmishes....
You don't think that a small outpost can be attacked, or two scouting parties hit eachother without it being a part of an interplanetary huge mess? I've read a few books on 40k where the combat parties sent in are smaller than what I field on the table. In Skitarius they go deep into chaos territory, and the Skitarii force that lands may be twice as big at most as my army. That's for a whole planet. In the Gathering Storm, Belasarius Cawl starts on a moon where he is investigating an object while fighting off greenskins. His Skitarii force is little more than what I have in models.
Your bias towards big battles is the only thing backing your claim.
Similarly, in Gathering Storm 2, Yvraine and the Visarch start out in the web way with a force of a few dozen Dark Eldar and Harlequins, and fight a series of running skirmishes with pursuing Daemons. The forces involved were probably on the 1000 point scale.
Battle of Waterloo, Napoleonic wars. Battle of Gettysburg, American Civil War. Battle of Bastogne, WWII. To name a few of thousands.
You're honestly arguing that in all those wars, the general had less than zero influence on when his reserves joined the battle?
In many cases yes, because the commander of the force currently on the battlefield is not commanding the forces on their way to reinforce those fighting. The commander calling for reinforcements can shout down a radio at them but that won't fix a thrown track any faster, or make them defeat an enemy patrol which has engaged them any faster, or make the terrain they're trying to traverse any less of a bog etc.
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.
I always found it stupid that a drop pod has superior armour to a Rhino/Dreadnought .
Especially as it doesn't even need it. Once it's there it's job is done
It should naturally have a ton of armor considering its making planetary entire it would be scookum AF but once the doors are down i highly doubt it needs to be the same armor as a rhino. probably way less in fact.
You do not need a lot of armour capable of deflecting bullets to make planetfall, especially as drop pods are designed to come in very fast and use that speed to avoid enemy firepower. What you want is ablative armour that will boil away, taking heat with it and you don't even need that on all sides of your spacecraft, only the side that will actually be taking the friction. Just look at the shuttle, all of its thermal shielding was on the underside of the craft.
We need to see the Deep Strike rules before we know for sure that’s obvious.I am not a SM player but i think the drop pod is gonna be a viable option in 8th edition. Just because it is one of the iconic SM things. They became more and more prominent over last 10 years. So my guess would be they will continue to do so in the future.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Space frames tend to be a fair bit stronger than even military vehicles, let alone high speed, low weight numbers like Ork Trukks.
Strength when used to describe space frames is not the same as armoured. Strength in space frames is more to do with rigidity in order to resist the specific forces which spaceflight exposes the craft to than actual physical resistance to impact.
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
Which is funny because Space Wolves for the longest time was Marines + 1.. and wait those unique things are what helps the Superfriends deathstar combo's.
Without the TWC and Wulfen you have Space Marines with less cool toys and useless special rules.
No Landspeeder Storm.
No Biker Troops.
No Heavy Weapons for Troops.
No Scout Bikers
No Cheap Flyers.
No Interceptor.
No Grav.
Accute Senses? Rubbish since 360° visibility was introduced.
Counter Attack? Because every army is super excited about engaging Marine Statlines in melee.
SuperFRIENDS. without vanilla allies Thunderstar doesn't work. Barkstar also needs non-Space Wolf allies.
Skyhammer is top tier without Space Wolves.
So is Grav Spam.
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.
Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.
I don't find this compelling. Slight differences in movement are not particularly meaningful in real battles unless they're unexpectedly engaged en route. You're right in that 40k muddles reinforcements with reserves, but even with the argument that they're arriving from elsewhere, there shouldn't be anything like the variance present in 40k. Delays were fairly rare in real battles, precisely because they were so important; instead, the army would retreat until it had full force. The way they currently work is like having a rule where tanks test at the start of the turn to see if they can move, or if they've run out of fuel - it's silly.
And besides all the real life analogies, answer me this: do you think that the random reserve mechanic is a fun addition which adds to the enjoyability of the game, or is it just another bit of rules bloat?
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.
And where voxcasters and instant communication is commonplace. And where you have gear made specifically to deliver your butt reliably into combat. The good stuff heavily outweighs the bad in how well prepared they are to deliver their reserves compared to historical armies, and yet it's literally a crap shoot to see if they join the fight or not, with no opportunity to hold them back if they decide to go... you know, the thing that is the whole point of reserves. To hold them back until there is an opportunity for them to cause heavy damage.
And yet, the real problem here isn't about being "like it is in real life" since that is a dumb comparison to make in the first place. It's that the game mechanic is dumb as hell. Losing the game because you roll a 1-2 three times in a row for your flyer containing your best and most kitted unit is just silly.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Space frames tend to be a fair bit stronger than even military vehicles, let alone high speed, low weight numbers like Ork Trukks.
Strength when used to describe space frames is not the same as armoured. Strength in space frames is more to do with rigidity in order to resist the specific forces which spaceflight exposes the craft to than actual physical resistance to impact.
They're tough enough to stand re-entry heat and the high impacts of landing on earth rather than in water, that's a big step up from an Ork truckk, that aside, was just looking at my Drop Pod, here's something to point out - the actual guts of the Pod aren't inside the cabin, all you have in there is a central brace post, the harnesses and the weapon, the engine of the pod is tucked underneath in it's own re-entry protected compartment, then further protected by the doors that slam down to cover it, so hitting something truly mechanical is actually a bit harder than I first thought.
That said, use the right weaponry and take advantage of Open-Topped and the fact a Pod gains Immobile on entry into consideration with your Pen rolls and you have something that actually takes extra damage easier than a Rhino.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
Which is funny because Space Wolves for the longest time was Marines + 1.. and wait those unique things are what helps the Superfriends deathstar combo's.
Without the TWC and Wulfen you have Space Marines with less cool toys and useless special rules.
No Landspeeder Storm. Not used
No Biker Troops. Commonly Used
No Heavy Weapons for Troops. People prefer double special over the schizo one special/one heavy.
No Scout Bikers Not used
No Cheap Flyers. Not used
No Interceptor. Not used
No Grav. Okay this is used everywhere SuperFRIENDS. without vanilla allies Thunderstar doesn't work. Barkstar also needs non-Space Wolf allies.
Skyhammer is top tier without Space Wolves.Yep
So is Grav Spam. Yep
However all this is basically the problems of the edition changes. Before Gladius and Skyhammer were introduced, alongside Grav Space Wolves used to be generally the Space Marines + 1. Aside from the things that are never used, or things that people would much rather have (You'd never see heavy weapons again if they gave Tac Squads the option for double grav).
Dakka Wolf wrote: Space frames tend to be a fair bit stronger than even military vehicles, let alone high speed, low weight numbers like Ork Trukks.
Strength when used to describe space frames is not the same as armoured. Strength in space frames is more to do with rigidity in order to resist the specific forces which spaceflight exposes the craft to than actual physical resistance to impact.
They're tough enough to stand re-entry heat and the high impacts of landing on earth rather than in water, that's a big step up from an Ork truckk,
Obviously, you know nothing about spatial engineering...
Anyway, if Drop Pods have no chutes and no rocket engines, they, and their content, would be smashed on the "landing on earth".
And if they do, they can be just as fragile as most spatial vessels, i.e. not a big step up from an Ork Trukk.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Space frames tend to be a fair bit stronger than even military vehicles, let alone high speed, low weight numbers like Ork Trukks.
Strength when used to describe space frames is not the same as armoured. Strength in space frames is more to do with rigidity in order to resist the specific forces which spaceflight exposes the craft to than actual physical resistance to impact.
They're tough enough to stand re-entry heat and the high impacts of landing on earth rather than in water, that's a big step up from an Ork truckk,
Obviously, you know nothing about spatial engineering...
Anyway, if Drop Pods have no chutes and no rocket engines, they, and their content, would be smashed on the "landing on earth".
And if they do, they can be just as fragile as most spatial vessels, i.e. not a big step up from an Ork Trukk.
Obviously you have no idea what kind of supermetals the Imperium uses to construct its stuff. The Adamantium, Ceramite and Plasteel which the Imperium builds everything out of, in any given situation, has a durability of eithey X or Y, depending on the writer's choice, with the remaining variable being Z, the force or damage that the object needs to withstand. The fomula to use in this situation is X > Z > Y. In this case, the author simply picks which he needs, which for Drop Pods is almost always X.
In such cases, adamantium is just simply strong enough to survive such an impact. And they have built in mechanisms for quickly disappating momentum.
Most cases where they go into detail about Drop pods has them firing retrothrusters just before landing to slow down considerably.
personally I can't wait to pick up drop pods and razerbacks/rhinos on the cheap when the new edition comes out from all the players giving up their gladius and moving on to the new hotness. have 6 razerbacks and only 3 drop pods righ tnow would love to increase that to 15 razerbacks and 10 drop pods if I can find em cheap enough
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
and the force commander passes out from heat exhaustion and they miss the signal tending to him, or he's a showoffy dick who waits to make his entrance more dramatic.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
I do think that the changes happening in the setting are going to be a HUUUGE help to GW for diversifying this setting. as it will enable GW to give us new stuff thats genuinely new and not "yeah this has been around since the heresy!" and thus allow it to be slow to trickle in, the blood angels are "north" of the Cictatrix Maledictum, and thus being resupplied will be a bitch, meanwhile I suspect the space wolves and the dark angels may be somewhat "out of favor" (the last HH book shows things being pretty damned tense between Gulliman and the Lion, and GS3 makes me suspect Gulliman hasn't gotten any more trusting of the 1st) and thus may not get access to the new toys out of terra, and instead may end up cutting deals with "local forge worlds"
it'd be a good way to shake things out and justify a bit more variation
I wanted to give my opinion on a couple things in the thread.
First, concerning Reserves, I agree with those saying that their are several very good reasons why reserves to show up exactly when they are called. You can train and train and train and have all the best equipment in the world yet the Laws of Murphy still manage to work their way in. The first portion of the equation that one must ask is just what kind of time frame is a Warhammer 40K turn? Are we talking seconds, minutes or even hours? Because give the scope of the game it could be any of them. If a turn is a mere seconds, then Reserves failing all their rolls and coming in automatically could merely be a slight hesitation or rallying speech by the squad leader.
The next is practicality, if these troops were on the ground positioned on an imaginary table that extended beyond the deploying actual table, how far back would they be? Are these reserves just off the table in the fog of war where they can't be shot, or are they a couple [game table] feet back and need to move flat out to reach the table edge? If they are much further back, do they move the same as one table units or do they go faster or slower than when they are placed on the table?
I think is it also important to think about what kind of things are happening off table that could effect reserves. I like to assume that large artillery and heavy air support fire don't much effect the table as the troops are danger close range, and it is simply too risky to fire without hitting your own troops. However, I can't see that being the case for reserves. Heck, with deep striking and teleportation as a thing in 40K, I can't believe the rear area is all that secure allowing reserves a clean, clear and easy path onto the battlefield.
As a player, I don't like using reserves rules in any game. I am very much a shock and awe player, and I seem to have incredibly bad luck in getting both my reserves to show up are having them show up in any useful order (I usually get the stuff I don't want in before I get the stuff I do). However, just like morale, I think it is an important aspect of miniatures wargaming as there should be elements that you the player as the field commander don't have total control over your forces.
The other matter I want to talk about is drop pod construction. I would assume that universe of 40K has long since developed materials that can survive something as low orbit entry. While the IoM might not know how to do it much, I assume their porta-potties could serve as single occupant drop pods. If fact, given the setting that is probably what they do. I mean the engineers of the Imperium clearing are anti-aerodynamics.
With that in mind, if I was designing a drop pod, I would want to keep the material costs down as you don't really know if you are going to be able to recover it and once it lands, it is basically bit of cover. Like a poster mentioned, I would want ablative heat shielding. Preferably stuff that could serve double duty as chaff/flairs to confuse enemy weapons into not targeting the pod itself. Once the pod is on the ground and its contents are delivered, sure; a servitor controlled bolter of some kind doesn't seem like too much of an expense. Especially, if you argue that the ammo could also be used for resupply.
What I wouldn't want to do is have a stationary object over armored when those materials could be better deployed on another unit. Of course, while the drop pod itself is from a more reasonable period, there is nothing to say that the Imperium hasn't Bradley Fighting Vehicle upped the drop pod either.
I think the drop pod should really just be a troop delivery unit with minimal firepower. I kinda like the idea of it denying Objective Secured (if that still exists in 8th), but agree that it shouldn't be securing objectives on its own. Of course I don't much like vehicles and monsters doing that either as I think that holding ground is what infantry does.
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.
And where voxcasters and instant communication is commonplace. And where you have gear made specifically to deliver your butt reliably into combat. The good stuff heavily outweighs the bad in how well prepared they are to deliver their reserves compared to historical armies, and yet it's literally a crap shoot to see if they join the fight or not, with no opportunity to hold them back if they decide to go... you know, the thing that is the whole point of reserves. To hold them back until there is an opportunity for them to cause heavy damage.
And yet, the real problem here isn't about being "like it is in real life" since that is a dumb comparison to make in the first place. It's that the game mechanic is dumb as hell. Losing the game because you roll a 1-2 three times in a row for your flyer containing your best and most kitted unit is just silly.
First you brought up the real world comparison - not us y talkig about "what general would have" so don't bring up "dumb comparisons" if you don't watn to make them
all the rest - Nope
Voxcasters are only common in elite Imperium troops like the Astartes, Sisters or well equiped Guard, msot guard get one per platoon or even less. They can be jammed, fail to work, be misinterpreted.
As you should know Reserves in 40k encompases a huge variety of units - from Navy air/void squadrons, Drop pods and Terminators in orbiting vessels, outflanking troops, etc etc.
You might have reserves but they don't always act as they shoudl, orders get countermanded, they get attacked themselves, they dont like you, the warp interferes, they think they know betetr, they can see an enemy force flanking, so many many things can happen and that is what the reserve roll represents.
It makes sense to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare.
I'd like to see vehicles being more viable in general, like Monolith, Landraiders and whatnot.
Pods one some kind of one use wonders. After they have arrived, they are expendable.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
I do think that the changes happening in the setting are going to be a HUUUGE help to GW for diversifying this setting. as it will enable GW to give us new stuff thats genuinely new and not "yeah this has been around since the heresy!" and thus allow it to be slow to trickle in, the blood angels are "north" of the Cictatrix Maledictum, and thus being resupplied will be a bitch, meanwhile I suspect the space wolves and the dark angels may be somewhat "out of favor" (the last HH book shows things being pretty damned tense between Gulliman and the Lion, and GS3 makes me suspect Gulliman hasn't gotten any more trusting of the 1st) and thus may not get access to the new toys out of terra, and instead may end up cutting deals with "local forge worlds"
it'd be a good way to shake things out and justify a bit more variation
How's the Lion/1st Legion being out of favour and the Blood Angels being hard to supply going to affect the Wolves?
Having half their numbers and a good portion of their recruitment planet killed will sting the Sons of Russ pretty good but the two Angel chapters and even Guiliman have very little to do with the Space Wolves...
Lots of Xeno players on here still completely lose their gak about them. Pretty amusing. I had these things crammed down my throat full of SW grey hunters in 5th over and over.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
I do think that the changes happening in the setting are going to be a HUUUGE help to GW for diversifying this setting. as it will enable GW to give us new stuff thats genuinely new and not "yeah this has been around since the heresy!" and thus allow it to be slow to trickle in, the blood angels are "north" of the Cictatrix Maledictum, and thus being resupplied will be a bitch, meanwhile I suspect the space wolves and the dark angels may be somewhat "out of favor" (the last HH book shows things being pretty damned tense between Gulliman and the Lion, and GS3 makes me suspect Gulliman hasn't gotten any more trusting of the 1st) and thus may not get access to the new toys out of terra, and instead may end up cutting deals with "local forge worlds"
it'd be a good way to shake things out and justify a bit more variation
How's the Lion/1st Legion being out of favour and the Blood Angels being hard to supply going to affect the Wolves?
Having half their numbers and a good portion of their recruitment planet killed will sting the Sons of Russ pretty good but the two Angel chapters and even Guiliman have very little to do with the Space Wolves...
As I said the space wolves may ALSO be out of favor. sure that doesn't mean they're going to have trouble resupplying from their regular sources but it does mean that they may be lower on the priority list for the new MK IX armor and the new Rediculas class assault tank.
If one of the rumors about Deep Striking being more of an in-game Infiltrate is true, Drop Pods would actually be getting more reliable than before.
From there it is dependent on restrictions on Deep Striking, Disembarking from a Vehicle, and what all else they put on the Drop Pod. Too much is unknown as to how much change the Drop Pod may, or may not, have.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
I do think that the changes happening in the setting are going to be a HUUUGE help to GW for diversifying this setting. as it will enable GW to give us new stuff thats genuinely new and not "yeah this has been around since the heresy!" and thus allow it to be slow to trickle in, the blood angels are "north" of the Cictatrix Maledictum, and thus being resupplied will be a bitch, meanwhile I suspect the space wolves and the dark angels may be somewhat "out of favor" (the last HH book shows things being pretty damned tense between Gulliman and the Lion, and GS3 makes me suspect Gulliman hasn't gotten any more trusting of the 1st) and thus may not get access to the new toys out of terra, and instead may end up cutting deals with "local forge worlds"
it'd be a good way to shake things out and justify a bit more variation
How's the Lion/1st Legion being out of favour and the Blood Angels being hard to supply going to affect the Wolves?
Having half their numbers and a good portion of their recruitment planet killed will sting the Sons of Russ pretty good but the two Angel chapters and even Guiliman have very little to do with the Space Wolves...
As I said the space wolves may ALSO be out of favor. sure that doesn't mean they're going to have trouble resupplying from their regular sources but it does mean that they may be lower on the priority list for the new MK IX armor and the new Rediculas class assault tank.
Ahh, gotcha.
Mkix power armour is the one with the full collar isn't it?
Martel732 wrote: Lots of Xeno players on here still completely lose their gak about them. Pretty amusing. I had these things crammed down my throat full of SW grey hunters in 5th over and over.
Exactly. Grey Hunters in the 5th edition codex are the only scary things you could use. Nowadays, the best unit (Sternguard) is MEQ. Are you really having problems with MEQ?
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.
And where voxcasters and instant communication is commonplace. And where you have gear made specifically to deliver your butt reliably into combat. The good stuff heavily outweighs the bad in how well prepared they are to deliver their reserves compared to historical armies, and yet it's literally a crap shoot to see if they join the fight or not, with no opportunity to hold them back if they decide to go... you know, the thing that is the whole point of reserves. To hold them back until there is an opportunity for them to cause heavy damage.
And yet, the real problem here isn't about being "like it is in real life" since that is a dumb comparison to make in the first place. It's that the game mechanic is dumb as hell. Losing the game because you roll a 1-2 three times in a row for your flyer containing your best and most kitted unit is just silly.
First you brought up the real world comparison - not us y talkig about "what general would have" so don't bring up "dumb comparisons" if you don't watn to make them
all the rest - Nope
Voxcasters are only common in elite Imperium troops like the Astartes, Sisters or well equiped Guard, msot guard get one per platoon or even less. They can be jammed, fail to work, be misinterpreted.
As you should know Reserves in 40k encompases a huge variety of units - from Navy air/void squadrons, Drop pods and Terminators in orbiting vessels, outflanking troops, etc etc.
You might have reserves but they don't always act as they shoudl, orders get countermanded, they get attacked themselves, they dont like you, the warp interferes, they think they know betetr, they can see an enemy force flanking, so many many things can happen and that is what the reserve roll represents.
It makes sense to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare.
It would make sense that all that stuff *can* happen, it doesn't even come close to making sense that it *will literally always happen to some extent.* To anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare. It's not like you always go in completely blind to your surroundings, with the most insubordinate officers and the warp is just churning people at random.
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.
And where voxcasters and instant communication is commonplace. And where you have gear made specifically to deliver your butt reliably into combat. The good stuff heavily outweighs the bad in how well prepared they are to deliver their reserves compared to historical armies, and yet it's literally a crap shoot to see if they join the fight or not, with no opportunity to hold them back if they decide to go... you know, the thing that is the whole point of reserves. To hold them back until there is an opportunity for them to cause heavy damage.
And yet, the real problem here isn't about being "like it is in real life" since that is a dumb comparison to make in the first place. It's that the game mechanic is dumb as hell. Losing the game because you roll a 1-2 three times in a row for your flyer containing your best and most kitted unit is just silly.
First you brought up the real world comparison - not us y talkig about "what general would have" so don't bring up "dumb comparisons" if you don't watn to make them
all the rest - Nope
Voxcasters are only common in elite Imperium troops like the Astartes, Sisters or well equiped Guard, msot guard get one per platoon or even less. They can be jammed, fail to work, be misinterpreted.
As you should know Reserves in 40k encompases a huge variety of units - from Navy air/void squadrons, Drop pods and Terminators in orbiting vessels, outflanking troops, etc etc.
You might have reserves but they don't always act as they shoudl, orders get countermanded, they get attacked themselves, they dont like you, the warp interferes, they think they know betetr, they can see an enemy force flanking, so many many things can happen and that is what the reserve roll represents.
It makes sense to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare.
It would make sense that all that stuff *can* happen, it doesn't even come close to making sense that it *will literally always happen to some extent.* To anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare. It's not like you always go in completely blind to your surroundings, with the most insubordinate officers and the warp is just churning people at random.
You ever read up on Bomber Escorts in WW2? Tuskegee Airmen is a pretty good example.
The fighter escorts had one role, stick with and protect the bombers to make sure they made it to their destination and back "safely". Some fighter pilots had other ideas and regularly left their charge to trophy hunt, the bombers weren't exactly saints either, some would dump their loads prematurely rather than flying over enemy anti-aircraft weaponry. In an age where communication works pretty well generals struggled to keep order in their own units.
In the case of 40k we're often talking planetary/world war level operations, multiple HQ leaders and apparently some armies lacking decent communication equipment, it's not hugely surprising that some reserves are pretty unreliable.
Still, it would be nice if armies could purchase upgrades like advanced communications that added to reserve rolls. Probably do more for selling Flying transports and gunships than Death from the Skies ever did.
You ever read up on Bomber Escorts in WW2? Tuskegee Airmen is a pretty good example.
The fighter escorts had one role, stick with and protect the bombers to make sure they made it to their destination and back "safely". Some fighter pilots had other ideas and regularly left their charge to trophy hunt, the bombers weren't exactly saints either, some would dump their loads prematurely rather than flying over enemy anti-aircraft weaponry. In an age where communication works pretty well generals struggled to keep order in their own units.
In the case of 40k we're often talking planetary/world war level operations, multiple HQ leaders and apparently some armies lacking decent communication equipment, it's not hugely surprising that some reserves are pretty unreliable.
Still, it would be nice if armies could purchase upgrades like advanced communications that added to reserve rolls. Probably do more for selling Flying transports and gunships than Death from the Skies ever did.
some pilots did. some.
In 40k you have literally no say on when anything comes in. Everything ignores you completely. If they come in when you want to, it was randomly done so. It doesn't matter one bit what you want, as that has no say at all on your roll. They come or don't completely on their own. If you could say "I want this to come in" and it would come in on a 2+, or you could say "I want this to stay in reserve" and it would stay on a 2+, then all your arguments would make sense. But you can't. You have literally no say at all. No matter what some pilots did in WW2, there was no general that had his entire army consist of what is basically Sgt. Oddball from Kelly's Heroes.
You ever read up on Bomber Escorts in WW2? Tuskegee Airmen is a pretty good example.
The fighter escorts had one role, stick with and protect the bombers to make sure they made it to their destination and back "safely". Some fighter pilots had other ideas and regularly left their charge to trophy hunt, the bombers weren't exactly saints either, some would dump their loads prematurely rather than flying over enemy anti-aircraft weaponry. In an age where communication works pretty well generals struggled to keep order in their own units.
In the case of 40k we're often talking planetary/world war level operations, multiple HQ leaders and apparently some armies lacking decent communication equipment, it's not hugely surprising that some reserves are pretty unreliable.
Still, it would be nice if armies could purchase upgrades like advanced communications that added to reserve rolls. Probably do more for selling Flying transports and gunships than Death from the Skies ever did.
some pilots did. some.
In 40k you have literally no say on when anything comes in. Everything ignores you completely. If they come in when you want to, it was randomly done so. It doesn't matter one bit what you want, as that has no say at all on your roll. They come or don't completely on their own. If you could say "I want this to come in" and it would come in on a 2+, or you could say "I want this to stay in reserve" and it would stay on a 2+, then all your arguments would make sense. But you can't. You have literally no say at all. No matter what some pilots did in WW2, there was no general that had his entire army consist of what is basically Sgt. Oddball from Kelly's Heroes.
Woof woof. That's my second dog impression.
A LOT of fighters did, that was the whole reason the Tuskegee Airmen earned the respect of the bomber crews - they could be relied on to do their job rather than running off to go Glory Hunting.
Depending on your army you do actually have limited say in how units come in. Skriers Gaze is accessible to any army that can use Divination. Apparently Space Wolves are the most reliable army and Harold Deathwolf is their greatest leader, Great Company rolls for troops - on a 6 the unit gets outflank and re-rolls reseves, Harold's Great Company automatically gets Outflank and re-rolls for reserves. There's also units that are consistent, you know at least half your Drop Pods are coming in first turn.
You know everything still in reserves arrives turn four.
I've already pointed out I'd like to be able to puchase equipment and upgrades that kill the randomness, but it is what it is - at least until 8th when it might become something else.
Purifier wrote: In 40k you have literally no say on when anything comes in. Everything ignores you completely. If they come in when you want to, it was randomly done so. It doesn't matter one bit what you want, as that has no say at all on your roll. They come or don't completely on their own. If you could say "I want this to come in" and it would come in on a 2+, or you could say "I want this to stay in reserve" and it would stay on a 2+, then all your arguments would make sense. But you can't. You have literally no say at all.
Unless you are the Black Legion, where your commander can choose to come in from Deep Strike turn 1. That's the only example I can think of where you get a choice.
The humble Rhino has been a mainstay of my forces in each edition of 40k. They serve as a delivery mechanism, shields for my troops, fire bases for Blastmasters, and cool looking set pieces in hundreds of games. I like them but am not expecting them to replace drop pods.
The advantage drop pods have is not about controlling when they come in, but controlling where they come in. Drop them on a victory point, shoot up anything contesting it, and you have the closest thing to an easy button that exists in 40k. The fact they can't move afterwards could almost be considered an advantage.
here's another thought... If GW ends up doing away with the scatter die... how will Deep Striking work? will everything just land where it wants? will there be some mitigation?
If AoS summoning is any indication of where deep strike is going. Then you will have quite a bit of control in where it lands on the board. The question is will the reserve roll work like summoning?
Spoiler:
SUMMON BLOODLETTERS
Summon Bloodletters has a casting value
of 6. If successfully cast, you can set up
a unit of up to 10 Bloodletters of Khorne
within 16" of the caster and more than
9" from any enemy models. The unit is
added to your army but cannot move in
the following movement phase. If the
result of the casting roll was 11 or more,
set up a unit of up to 20 Bloodletters of
Khorne instead.
Dakka Wolf wrote: You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.
Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.
Oh yeah I guess 9 drop pods sitting on objectives is unimportant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dakka Wolf wrote: Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.
Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.
Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.
I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.
Orock wrote: I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.
And that unit may not be possible in the next edition. ICs may not exist in this next edition. Those Relics may not exist in the next edition.
I see we are moving the goalposts. You can also stick a combat squadding sternguard with melta plasma and flamers. Or drop them for line breaker. Nobody had firepower to waste on 5+ tough vehicles when the deadly stuff has to be dealt with first.
Dakka Wolf wrote: You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.
Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.
Oh yeah I guess 9 drop pods sitting on objectives is unimportant.
Considering there's six objectives, seven if you include linebreaker at least two of them are irrelevant and if you're hellbent on collecting objectives surely some of those remaining Drop Pods aren't exactly out of your way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dakka Wolf wrote: Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.
Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.
Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.
I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.
Funny, I don't even have access to centurions and I remembered them.
Orock wrote: I see we are moving the goalposts. You can also stick a combat squadding sternguard with melta plasma and flamers. Or drop them for line breaker. Nobody had firepower to waste on 5+ tough vehicles when the deadly stuff has to be dealt with first.
We are not moving the goal posts, just recognizing that the goal posts in 8th Edition may not be in the same position or pattern that we are currently looking at in 7th Edition. We have been told a lot will be changing in the base mechanics. When that happens, we usually see the units themselves also undergo an incredible amount of change as well.
We have seen some of these changes in AoS, and we don't know how much they will be taking from AoS in to 40K. Those changes may be more extensive than we have been introduced to so far. Characters may be one. Independent Characters no longer exist as a rule in the transition between WHFB and AoS, and are simply Characters who have very high Wounds. It is not outside of the realm of possibility that the same thing applies here, especially with all the problems that come with ICs and balance. As it is, the FAQs have done their darned best to minimize the benefits of being joined to units as it is.
Traditio wrote: I also wish to note that drop pod meltaguns have been NERFED.
Good luck getting within melta range when you can't deepstrike within 9 inches of any of my stuff!
we dunno what the special rules for droppods ARE though. remember drop pods back in 7th wheren't just a fancy way to add deep strike to your tatical marines. they where more accurate then a normal deep strike
Azreal13 wrote: Plus Heavies have been buffed, so say goodbye to Drop Pod Meltaguns and say hello to Drop Pod Multi Meltas! They don't care about your 9" bull.
What you are saying is true, and I think that this should pose exciting tactical options in 8th edition.
Devastators with multi-meltas in a drop pod should be a viable, though expensive, option. (I'm calculating, in all likelihood, at least 173 points for the squad, not counting the drop pod itself, not counting any additional cost for the sergeant over and beyond the 13 ppm he'll likely cost...I'd be surprised if you can take that for less than 210 points total. So at least that. Compare that to 195 for combi-melta sternguard with drop pod in 7th edition).
I don't think it's going to be either spammable or is it going to be anything like an "obvious" list-building choice, though.
Well over 200 points for a suicide unit that is likely to miss, on average, roughly half of its shots?
And it's not like you're going to be rolling and hoping for that lucky 5 or 6 on the vehicle damage table.
Dakka Wolf wrote:For snowflake Marine armies the Drop Pod is still the best way to dump a Dread in your opponent's face.
Obviously.
I wouldn't call that "drop pod spam," though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, to be clear:
I think that we are still going to see some drop pods on the table.
I think that it's going to be viewed as one choice among others, however, an option to be selected for certain niche uses, and not the "obvious" choice.
And I think that the age of spamming drop pods is definitely done.
Dakka Wolf wrote: You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.
Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.
Oh yeah I guess 9 drop pods sitting on objectives is unimportant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dakka Wolf wrote: Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.
Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.
Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.
I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.
Addressing Dakkawolf.
Dude, Skyhammer sucks. It hasn't been competitively relevant since like...before the new tau book. No dedicated drop pod player would actually use the skyhammer because it is a crappy gimmick with no staying power.
Real Pod lists, like the one that took 10th at adepticon this year, use Centurion stars with Tiggy and Libcon(and guillamen in his case.) and then a bunch of melta/combi-melta tactical for objective grabbing and vehicle popping.
Say what you want about the changes and whether or not they make sense or are good but don't pretend like skyhammer wasn't a total flash in the pan.
Dakka Wolf wrote:For snowflake Marine armies the Drop Pod is still the best way to dump a Dread in your opponent's face.
Obviously.
I wouldn't call that "drop pod spam," though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, to be clear:
I think that we are still going to see some drop pods on the table.
I think that it's going to be viewed as one choice among others, however, an option to be selected for certain niche uses, and not the "obvious" choice.
And I think that the age of spamming drop pods is definitely done.
There will be ways around it, just like Tau can politely step out of melee with minimal penalties.
Dakka Wolf wrote: You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.
Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.
Oh yeah I guess 9 drop pods sitting on objectives is unimportant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dakka Wolf wrote: Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.
Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.
Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.
I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.
Addressing Dakkawolf.
Dude, Skyhammer sucks. It hasn't been competitively relevant since like...before the new tau book. No dedicated drop pod player would actually use the skyhammer because it is a crappy gimmick with no staying power.
Real Pod lists, like the one that took 10th at adepticon this year, use Centurion stars with Tiggy and Libcon(and guillamen in his case.) and then a bunch of melta/combi-melta tactical for objective grabbing and vehicle popping.
Say what you want about the changes and whether or not they make sense or are good but don't pretend like skyhammer wasn't a total flash in the pan.
Maybe you should try following the conversation.
My argument was that Drop Pods weren't the most powerful thing in the world and the only time they even seemed to be was during the Skyhammer era which was quickly countered.
Dakka Wolf wrote:For snowflake Marine armies the Drop Pod is still the best way to dump a Dread in your opponent's face.
Obviously.
I wouldn't call that "drop pod spam," though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, to be clear:
I think that we are still going to see some drop pods on the table.
I think that it's going to be viewed as one choice among others, however, an option to be selected for certain niche uses, and not the "obvious" choice.
And I think that the age of spamming drop pods is definitely done.
It was never the obvious choice for me. And I'm BA.
Traditio wrote: I think that we can safely declare the age of drop pod spam OVER.
1. Only half of the units in a standard battle forged army will be able to take one as a dedicated transport.
2. Null deploys are now dead in matched play.
3. Vehicles now are able to fight in close combat. Meanwhile, drop pods are likely to remain immobile.
I'm calling it now: drop pods are D-E-A-D.
LET THE AGE OF RHINOS COMMENCE!
Umm, no, pods are not D-E-A-D. They will still have their uses, you just won't see a whole army arriving via pods. They will still be a great mechanism for threatening an opposing backfield unit by dropping some guns near said unit without them having to walk or drive up in a Rhino. With the new rules for blasts, you might even see a few Deathwind Launchers on pods. As for the whole 9 inch thing, I wonder if what will happen is the pod itself will have to drop at least 9 inches away, while the squad can disembark and walk closer. This might actually make pods really scary, especially if the squad inside can charge immediately.
As has been pointed out above, with the new rules for heavy weapons and movement you might see more Devastator squads arriving by drop pod. Things like Multimeltas and Heavy Bolters could be good candidates for a Pod squad, not to mention grav (although we don't have any idea what Grav is going to be like in 8th yet).
I'm thinking actually that this new edition will be the age of Razorback spam. All those nifty Twin-linked weapons now fire twice as many shots instead of rerolling to hit. All Rhinos have is a crappy Storm Bolter and a larger transport capacity, which will not come into play that often if you run 5-man squads. And from what we've seen so far, I think 5 man squads of Marines are going to be the way to go. Rhinos will still have a place if you want a squad to shoot out of the hatches, though.
ZergSmasher wrote:Umm, no, pods are not D-E-A-D. They will still have their uses, you just won't see a whole army arriving via pods.
Yes, I think that's accurate.
"Drop pods are D-E-A-D" was, admittedly, hyperbolic/an overstatement.
Drop pod spam is definitely dead, though.
They will still be a great mechanism for threatening an opposing backfield unit
I'm not sure about that. The "at least 9 inches away" thing is a significant nerf in that respect.
As for the whole 9 inch thing, I wonder if what will happen is the pod itself will have to drop at least 9 inches away, while the squad can disembark and walk closer. This might actually make pods really scary, especially if the squad inside can charge immediately.
I imagine that the squad will be able to charge immediately, but I also am inclined to think that the rule will state that both the drop pod and the unit, once disembarked, have to be further away than 9 inches.
Maybe you should try following the conversation.
My argument was that Drop Pods weren't the most powerful thing in the world and the only time they even seemed to be was during the Skyhammer era which was quickly countered.
It's poor etiquette to make a post that ridiculously long yunno.
Drop pods space marines aren't the most WTFBBQOMG lists in the game but they are and have been consistent contenders at the top competitive level for years of progressively more broken releases due almost entirely due to the power and flexibility inherent to the drop pods themselves. Being able to show up almost anywhere on the field is unbelievably powerful, being able to do so with very little risk of failure makes it even moreso, being able to guarantee first turn advantage, regardless of whether or not you go first is huge. If we truly wanted this edition to be balanced then this is a mechanic that had to be modified because it puts the 'floor' of power far too high for marines.
Deadshot wrote: Can I ask why people are calling it Rend all of a sudden? It still says AP on the sheet, let's just keep it that way
Explanation: It's easier to port the AoS term (since 'Rend' in AoS indicates the negative modifier applied to a save roll).
However, if we just stick with it a bit, I'm sure we can all learn that AP4 now means, "-4 to a save roll", right?
Also: Drop Pods are not dead. We still don't have a full appreciation for what value there will be in placing units in Reserves (where they can't be shot on Turn One, where they come in when and where we want them to, and where we can drop them anywhere on the table--as compared to a Rhino that still has to "get there").
It's thorny thing to solve when you have 2 armies where logically both have very similar units. For example no reason why dark angels wouldnt have grav weapons, centurions etc. But if dark angels have access to all the units ultramarines have why take ultramarines? (well snowflake chapter tactics help there a bit). Access to unique formation isn't much help as what if you don't take that formation? Might just as well play the other.
