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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 09:01:25
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Purifier wrote:
MOST games? That's a pretty bold claim. I mean I can definitely see that would be a way to think of it, but I've never once thought of my games that way.
That's actually understatement. All games would be more akin.
40k battles are frigging huge with IG throwing stuff into battle in battallion scale rather than platoon or two like in 40k. There's no way 40k battles can be full battle in itself.
As it is even epic battles(as in epic 40k/armageddon) would be rather small skirmishes....
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 09:08:56
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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tneva82 wrote: Purifier wrote:
MOST games? That's a pretty bold claim. I mean I can definitely see that would be a way to think of it, but I've never once thought of my games that way.
That's actually understatement. All games would be more akin.
40k battles are frigging huge with IG throwing stuff into battle in battallion scale rather than platoon or two like in 40k. There's no way 40k battles can be full battle in itself.
As it is even epic battles(as in epic 40k/armageddon) would be rather small skirmishes....
You don't think that a small outpost can be attacked, or two scouting parties hit eachother without it being a part of an interplanetary huge mess? I've read a few books on 40k where the combat parties sent in are smaller than what I field on the table. In Skitarius they go deep into chaos territory, and the Skitarii force that lands may be twice as big at most as my army. That's for a whole planet. In the Gathering Storm, Belasarius Cawl starts on a moon where he is investigating an object while fighting off greenskins. His Skitarii force is little more than what I have in models.
Your bias towards big battles is the only thing backing your claim.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 09:29:11
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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Dakka Wolf wrote:They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
Which is funny because Space Wolves for the longest time was Marines + 1.. and wait those unique things are what helps the Superfriends deathstar combo's.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/28 09:29:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 09:42:43
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
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Purifier wrote:
Would HAVE.
Crazyterran wrote:In AoS, you can deepstrike without scattering, but typically must be at least 9" away from the enemy.
Perhaps pods will be the same, to balance them out? Or maybe Drop Pods will disallow assaulting when getting out of them, to balance them out a bit.
Or Drop Pods allow assaulting out of them while dropping without a pod doesn't let you do that, to make pods have a reason to exist. Then again, pods are the only reason why some units can drop at all, so there is their reason.
The "Ongoing Reserves" rule is the one I want to see changed massively. What kind of bass ackwards general has such horrible control over his reserves that they come on the field nilly willy, sometimes half a battle later than he wanted them, and sometimes stumbling on the field a bit early, and never according to his plan except on accident? That's not reserves, that's belated reinforcements, and sure that can be a game mechanic, but don't call them reserves! Reserves are standing just off the field, waiting for the signal from the general. I can't count the amount of games I've seen won or lost on bad reserve rolls.
Battle of Waterloo, Napoleonic wars. Battle of Gettysburg, American Civil War. Battle of Bastogne, WWII. To name a few of thousands.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 09:45:34
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
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Purifier wrote:
But on top of that (and more importantly,) it's a stupid game mechanic. It makes using ongoing reserves a bad choice unless you're using drop pods or have modifiers and rerolls to make it more reliable. Playing the first 3 rounds with half your points is basically a loss, just because of one bad mechanic that you have some poor luck on.
+1. I think that reserves should be a tactical choice - i.e. you chose when they come in before the first turn is taken but after deployment. That would be a much more interesting mechanic to me because you have to try and figure out before battle starts where you'll need the reinforcement; i.e. you'd have to use reserves like actual reserves. Sure, you'd need restrictions like "reserves must enter before the start of turn 4" to restrict last second objective grabbing, but that's nothing complex. Rolling for it randomly makes no sense, and I don't really see why it's included in the rules as it does nothing but add a layer of frustration. I still expect it to be random in 8th regardless, unfortunately, but it would be great if I was wrong.
As for drop pods, I really hope they're at least viable. I get frustrated playing against them in the current era, as they're almost always just "here's my unit of grav, I'm going to melt this unit" but they are so iconic; there are few armies I think look better on the table than just after a bunch of drop pods have deployed into that wall of metal flowers. I'd agree with them being weaker though - I don't think it's a huge balance issue, but logically it makes no sense that they're harder to kill than the main Guard APC.
Deep strike I'm hoping will just copy the AoS rules. Currently, nothing uses the deep strike rules at all unless there's no chance to scatter, as the chance to mishap can almost instantly lose you the game when it goes badly. When was the last time you saw a monolith deep strike, or terminators? It's pointless for them, because it's too many points which can just either be meaningless or worse, outright destroyed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 10:08:51
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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Poly Ranger wrote:
Battle of Waterloo, Napoleonic wars. Battle of Gettysburg, American Civil War. Battle of Bastogne, WWII. To name a few of thousands.
You're honestly arguing that in all those wars, the general had less than zero influence on when his reserves joined the battle?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 11:36:32
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Sneaky Lictor
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Purifier wrote:tneva82 wrote: Purifier wrote:
MOST games? That's a pretty bold claim. I mean I can definitely see that would be a way to think of it, but I've never once thought of my games that way.
That's actually understatement. All games would be more akin.
40k battles are frigging huge with IG throwing stuff into battle in battallion scale rather than platoon or two like in 40k. There's no way 40k battles can be full battle in itself.
As it is even epic battles(as in epic 40k/armageddon) would be rather small skirmishes....
You don't think that a small outpost can be attacked, or two scouting parties hit eachother without it being a part of an interplanetary huge mess? I've read a few books on 40k where the combat parties sent in are smaller than what I field on the table. In Skitarius they go deep into chaos territory, and the Skitarii force that lands may be twice as big at most as my army. That's for a whole planet. In the Gathering Storm, Belasarius Cawl starts on a moon where he is investigating an object while fighting off greenskins. His Skitarii force is little more than what I have in models.
Your bias towards big battles is the only thing backing your claim.
Similarly, in Gathering Storm 2, Yvraine and the Visarch start out in the web way with a force of a few dozen Dark Eldar and Harlequins, and fight a series of running skirmishes with pursuing Daemons. The forces involved were probably on the 1000 point scale.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 12:33:32
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Purifier wrote:Poly Ranger wrote:
Battle of Waterloo, Napoleonic wars. Battle of Gettysburg, American Civil War. Battle of Bastogne, WWII. To name a few of thousands.
You're honestly arguing that in all those wars, the general had less than zero influence on when his reserves joined the battle?
In many cases yes, because the commander of the force currently on the battlefield is not commanding the forces on their way to reinforce those fighting. The commander calling for reinforcements can shout down a radio at them but that won't fix a thrown track any faster, or make them defeat an enemy patrol which has engaged them any faster, or make the terrain they're trying to traverse any less of a bog etc.
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way. Automatically Appended Next Post: Desubot wrote:Jbz` wrote: Drasius wrote:
Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.
I always found it stupid that a drop pod has superior armour to a Rhino/Dreadnought .
Especially as it doesn't even need it. Once it's there it's job is done
It should naturally have a ton of armor considering its making planetary entire it would be scookum AF but once the doors are down i highly doubt it needs to be the same armor as a rhino. probably way less in fact.
You do not need a lot of armour capable of deflecting bullets to make planetfall, especially as drop pods are designed to come in very fast and use that speed to avoid enemy firepower. What you want is ablative armour that will boil away, taking heat with it and you don't even need that on all sides of your spacecraft, only the side that will actually be taking the friction. Just look at the shuttle, all of its thermal shielding was on the underside of the craft.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/28 12:38:44
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 12:46:12
Subject: Re:Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos
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We need to see the Deep Strike rules before we know for sure that’s obvious.I am not a SM player but i think the drop pod is gonna be a viable option in 8th edition. Just because it is one of the iconic SM things. They became more and more prominent over last 10 years. So my guess would be they will continue to do so in the future.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 12:47:39
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Dakka Wolf wrote:Space frames tend to be a fair bit stronger than even military vehicles, let alone high speed, low weight numbers like Ork Trukks.
Strength when used to describe space frames is not the same as armoured. Strength in space frames is more to do with rigidity in order to resist the specific forces which spaceflight exposes the craft to than actual physical resistance to impact.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 12:53:59
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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A Town Called Malus wrote:
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 13:07:31
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: Dakka Wolf wrote:They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
Which is funny because Space Wolves for the longest time was Marines + 1.. and wait those unique things are what helps the Superfriends deathstar combo's.
Without the TWC and Wulfen you have Space Marines with less cool toys and useless special rules.
No Landspeeder Storm.
No Biker Troops.
No Heavy Weapons for Troops.
No Scout Bikers
No Cheap Flyers.
No Interceptor.
No Grav.
Accute Senses? Rubbish since 360° visibility was introduced.
Counter Attack? Because every army is super excited about engaging Marine Statlines in melee.
Super FRIENDS. without vanilla allies Thunderstar doesn't work. Barkstar also needs non-Space Wolf allies.
Skyhammer is top tier without Space Wolves.
So is Grav Spam.
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I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 13:23:07
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Purifier wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 13:30:52
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
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A Town Called Malus wrote: Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension. I don't find this compelling. Slight differences in movement are not particularly meaningful in real battles unless they're unexpectedly engaged en route. You're right in that 40k muddles reinforcements with reserves, but even with the argument that they're arriving from elsewhere, there shouldn't be anything like the variance present in 40k. Delays were fairly rare in real battles, precisely because they were so important; instead, the army would retreat until it had full force. The way they currently work is like having a rule where tanks test at the start of the turn to see if they can move, or if they've run out of fuel - it's silly. And besides all the real life analogies, answer me this: do you think that the random reserve mechanic is a fun addition which adds to the enjoyability of the game, or is it just another bit of rules bloat?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/28 13:31:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 13:34:58
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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A Town Called Malus wrote: Purifier wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.
And where voxcasters and instant communication is commonplace. And where you have gear made specifically to deliver your butt reliably into combat. The good stuff heavily outweighs the bad in how well prepared they are to deliver their reserves compared to historical armies, and yet it's literally a crap shoot to see if they join the fight or not, with no opportunity to hold them back if they decide to go... you know, the thing that is the whole point of reserves. To hold them back until there is an opportunity for them to cause heavy damage.
And yet, the real problem here isn't about being "like it is in real life" since that is a dumb comparison to make in the first place. It's that the game mechanic is dumb as hell. Losing the game because you roll a 1-2 three times in a row for your flyer containing your best and most kitted unit is just silly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 13:41:15
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought
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A Town Called Malus wrote: Dakka Wolf wrote:Space frames tend to be a fair bit stronger than even military vehicles, let alone high speed, low weight numbers like Ork Trukks.
Strength when used to describe space frames is not the same as armoured. Strength in space frames is more to do with rigidity in order to resist the specific forces which spaceflight exposes the craft to than actual physical resistance to impact.
They're tough enough to stand re-entry heat and the high impacts of landing on earth rather than in water, that's a big step up from an Ork truckk, that aside, was just looking at my Drop Pod, here's something to point out - the actual guts of the Pod aren't inside the cabin, all you have in there is a central brace post, the harnesses and the weapon, the engine of the pod is tucked underneath in it's own re-entry protected compartment, then further protected by the doors that slam down to cover it, so hitting something truly mechanical is actually a bit harder than I first thought.
That said, use the right weaponry and take advantage of Open-Topped and the fact a Pod gains Immobile on entry into consideration with your Pen rolls and you have something that actually takes extra damage easier than a Rhino.
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I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 17:53:33
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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Dakka Wolf wrote: ZebioLizard2 wrote: Dakka Wolf wrote:They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
Which is funny because Space Wolves for the longest time was Marines + 1.. and wait those unique things are what helps the Superfriends deathstar combo's.
Without the TWC and Wulfen you have Space Marines with less cool toys and useless special rules.
No Landspeeder Storm. Not used
No Biker Troops. Commonly Used
No Heavy Weapons for Troops. People prefer double special over the schizo one special/one heavy.
No Scout Bikers Not used
No Cheap Flyers. Not used
No Interceptor. Not used
No Grav. Okay this is used everywhere
Super FRIENDS. without vanilla allies Thunderstar doesn't work. Barkstar also needs non-Space Wolf allies.
Skyhammer is top tier without Space Wolves. Yep
So is Grav Spam. Yep
However all this is basically the problems of the edition changes. Before Gladius and Skyhammer were introduced, alongside Grav Space Wolves used to be generally the Space Marines + 1. Aside from the things that are never used, or things that people would much rather have (You'd never see heavy weapons again if they gave Tac Squads the option for double grav).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/28 17:55:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 19:14:08
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dakka Wolf wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote: Dakka Wolf wrote:Space frames tend to be a fair bit stronger than even military vehicles, let alone high speed, low weight numbers like Ork Trukks.
Strength when used to describe space frames is not the same as armoured. Strength in space frames is more to do with rigidity in order to resist the specific forces which spaceflight exposes the craft to than actual physical resistance to impact.
They're tough enough to stand re-entry heat and the high impacts of landing on earth rather than in water, that's a big step up from an Ork truckk,
Obviously, you know nothing about spatial engineering...
Anyway, if Drop Pods have no chutes and no rocket engines, they, and their content, would be smashed on the "landing on earth".
And if they do, they can be just as fragile as most spatial vessels, i.e. not a big step up from an Ork Trukk.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 19:38:26
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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morgoth wrote: Dakka Wolf wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote: Dakka Wolf wrote:Space frames tend to be a fair bit stronger than even military vehicles, let alone high speed, low weight numbers like Ork Trukks.
Strength when used to describe space frames is not the same as armoured. Strength in space frames is more to do with rigidity in order to resist the specific forces which spaceflight exposes the craft to than actual physical resistance to impact.
They're tough enough to stand re-entry heat and the high impacts of landing on earth rather than in water, that's a big step up from an Ork truckk,
Obviously, you know nothing about spatial engineering...
Anyway, if Drop Pods have no chutes and no rocket engines, they, and their content, would be smashed on the "landing on earth".
And if they do, they can be just as fragile as most spatial vessels, i.e. not a big step up from an Ork Trukk.
Obviously you have no idea what kind of supermetals the Imperium uses to construct its stuff. The Adamantium, Ceramite and Plasteel which the Imperium builds everything out of, in any given situation, has a durability of eithey X or Y, depending on the writer's choice, with the remaining variable being Z, the force or damage that the object needs to withstand. The fomula to use in this situation is X > Z > Y. In this case, the author simply picks which he needs, which for Drop Pods is almost always X.
In such cases, adamantium is just simply strong enough to survive such an impact. And they have built in mechanisms for quickly disappating momentum.
Most cases where they go into detail about Drop pods has them firing retrothrusters just before landing to slow down considerably.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/28 21:12:43
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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personally I can't wait to pick up drop pods and razerbacks/rhinos on the cheap when the new edition comes out from all the players giving up their gladius and moving on to the new hotness. have 6 razerbacks and only 3 drop pods righ tnow would love to increase that to 15 razerbacks and 10 drop pods if I can find em cheap enough
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/29 01:01:38
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Pious Palatine
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Purifier wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
and the force commander passes out from heat exhaustion and they miss the signal tending to him, or he's a showoffy dick who waits to make his entrance more dramatic.
Knock it off.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/29 11:26:03
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Dakka Wolf wrote:They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
I do think that the changes happening in the setting are going to be a HUUUGE help to GW for diversifying this setting. as it will enable GW to give us new stuff thats genuinely new and not "yeah this has been around since the heresy!" and thus allow it to be slow to trickle in, the blood angels are "north" of the Cictatrix Maledictum, and thus being resupplied will be a bitch, meanwhile I suspect the space wolves and the dark angels may be somewhat "out of favor" (the last HH book shows things being pretty damned tense between Gulliman and the Lion, and GS3 makes me suspect Gulliman hasn't gotten any more trusting of the 1st) and thus may not get access to the new toys out of terra, and instead may end up cutting deals with "local forge worlds"
it'd be a good way to shake things out and justify a bit more variation
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 11:26:38
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/29 13:44:15
Subject: Re:Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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I wanted to give my opinion on a couple things in the thread.
First, concerning Reserves, I agree with those saying that their are several very good reasons why reserves to show up exactly when they are called. You can train and train and train and have all the best equipment in the world yet the Laws of Murphy still manage to work their way in. The first portion of the equation that one must ask is just what kind of time frame is a Warhammer 40K turn? Are we talking seconds, minutes or even hours? Because give the scope of the game it could be any of them. If a turn is a mere seconds, then Reserves failing all their rolls and coming in automatically could merely be a slight hesitation or rallying speech by the squad leader.
The next is practicality, if these troops were on the ground positioned on an imaginary table that extended beyond the deploying actual table, how far back would they be? Are these reserves just off the table in the fog of war where they can't be shot, or are they a couple [game table] feet back and need to move flat out to reach the table edge? If they are much further back, do they move the same as one table units or do they go faster or slower than when they are placed on the table?
I think is it also important to think about what kind of things are happening off table that could effect reserves. I like to assume that large artillery and heavy air support fire don't much effect the table as the troops are danger close range, and it is simply too risky to fire without hitting your own troops. However, I can't see that being the case for reserves. Heck, with deep striking and teleportation as a thing in 40K, I can't believe the rear area is all that secure allowing reserves a clean, clear and easy path onto the battlefield.
As a player, I don't like using reserves rules in any game. I am very much a shock and awe player, and I seem to have incredibly bad luck in getting both my reserves to show up are having them show up in any useful order (I usually get the stuff I don't want in before I get the stuff I do). However, just like morale, I think it is an important aspect of miniatures wargaming as there should be elements that you the player as the field commander don't have total control over your forces.
The other matter I want to talk about is drop pod construction. I would assume that universe of 40K has long since developed materials that can survive something as low orbit entry. While the IoM might not know how to do it much, I assume their porta-potties could serve as single occupant drop pods. If fact, given the setting that is probably what they do. I mean the engineers of the Imperium clearing are anti-aerodynamics.
With that in mind, if I was designing a drop pod, I would want to keep the material costs down as you don't really know if you are going to be able to recover it and once it lands, it is basically bit of cover. Like a poster mentioned, I would want ablative heat shielding. Preferably stuff that could serve double duty as chaff/flairs to confuse enemy weapons into not targeting the pod itself. Once the pod is on the ground and its contents are delivered, sure; a servitor controlled bolter of some kind doesn't seem like too much of an expense. Especially, if you argue that the ammo could also be used for resupply.
What I wouldn't want to do is have a stationary object over armored when those materials could be better deployed on another unit. Of course, while the drop pod itself is from a more reasonable period, there is nothing to say that the Imperium hasn't Bradley Fighting Vehicle upped the drop pod either.
I think the drop pod should really just be a troop delivery unit with minimal firepower. I kinda like the idea of it denying Objective Secured (if that still exists in 8th), but agree that it shouldn't be securing objectives on its own. Of course I don't much like vehicles and monsters doing that either as I think that holding ground is what infantry does.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/29 14:04:08
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Mighty Vampire Count
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Purifier wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote: Purifier wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:
A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.
Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.
Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.
And where voxcasters and instant communication is commonplace. And where you have gear made specifically to deliver your butt reliably into combat. The good stuff heavily outweighs the bad in how well prepared they are to deliver their reserves compared to historical armies, and yet it's literally a crap shoot to see if they join the fight or not, with no opportunity to hold them back if they decide to go... you know, the thing that is the whole point of reserves. To hold them back until there is an opportunity for them to cause heavy damage.
And yet, the real problem here isn't about being "like it is in real life" since that is a dumb comparison to make in the first place. It's that the game mechanic is dumb as hell. Losing the game because you roll a 1-2 three times in a row for your flyer containing your best and most kitted unit is just silly.
First you brought up the real world comparison - not us y talkig about "what general would have" so don't bring up "dumb comparisons" if you don't watn to make them
all the rest - Nope
Voxcasters are only common in elite Imperium troops like the Astartes, Sisters or well equiped Guard, msot guard get one per platoon or even less. They can be jammed, fail to work, be misinterpreted.
As you should know Reserves in 40k encompases a huge variety of units - from Navy air/void squadrons, Drop pods and Terminators in orbiting vessels, outflanking troops, etc etc.
You might have reserves but they don't always act as they shoudl, orders get countermanded, they get attacked themselves, they dont like you, the warp interferes, they think they know betetr, they can see an enemy force flanking, so many many things can happen and that is what the reserve roll represents.
It makes sense to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare.
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I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/29 14:12:59
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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I'd like to see vehicles being more viable in general, like Monolith, Landraiders and whatnot.
Pods one some kind of one use wonders. After they have arrived, they are expendable.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/29 14:47:31
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought
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BrianDavion wrote: Dakka Wolf wrote:They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
I do think that the changes happening in the setting are going to be a HUUUGE help to GW for diversifying this setting. as it will enable GW to give us new stuff thats genuinely new and not "yeah this has been around since the heresy!" and thus allow it to be slow to trickle in, the blood angels are "north" of the Cictatrix Maledictum, and thus being resupplied will be a bitch, meanwhile I suspect the space wolves and the dark angels may be somewhat "out of favor" (the last HH book shows things being pretty damned tense between Gulliman and the Lion, and GS3 makes me suspect Gulliman hasn't gotten any more trusting of the 1st) and thus may not get access to the new toys out of terra, and instead may end up cutting deals with "local forge worlds"
it'd be a good way to shake things out and justify a bit more variation
How's the Lion/1st Legion being out of favour and the Blood Angels being hard to supply going to affect the Wolves?
Having half their numbers and a good portion of their recruitment planet killed will sting the Sons of Russ pretty good but the two Angel chapters and even Guiliman have very little to do with the Space Wolves...
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I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/29 22:20:13
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Drop Pods are only scary if you've played the game less than 3 times.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/30 01:46:19
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Lots of Xeno players on here still completely lose their gak about them. Pretty amusing. I had these things crammed down my throat full of SW grey hunters in 5th over and over.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/30 01:52:22
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Dakka Wolf wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Dakka Wolf wrote:They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
I do think that the changes happening in the setting are going to be a HUUUGE help to GW for diversifying this setting. as it will enable GW to give us new stuff thats genuinely new and not "yeah this has been around since the heresy!" and thus allow it to be slow to trickle in, the blood angels are "north" of the Cictatrix Maledictum, and thus being resupplied will be a bitch, meanwhile I suspect the space wolves and the dark angels may be somewhat "out of favor" (the last HH book shows things being pretty damned tense between Gulliman and the Lion, and GS3 makes me suspect Gulliman hasn't gotten any more trusting of the 1st) and thus may not get access to the new toys out of terra, and instead may end up cutting deals with "local forge worlds"
it'd be a good way to shake things out and justify a bit more variation
How's the Lion/1st Legion being out of favour and the Blood Angels being hard to supply going to affect the Wolves?
Having half their numbers and a good portion of their recruitment planet killed will sting the Sons of Russ pretty good but the two Angel chapters and even Guiliman have very little to do with the Space Wolves...
As I said the space wolves may ALSO be out of favor. sure that doesn't mean they're going to have trouble resupplying from their regular sources but it does mean that they may be lower on the priority list for the new MK IX armor and the new Rediculas class assault tank.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/04/30 02:39:02
Subject: Is the Age of Drop Pod Dominance Over? 8th edition
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Not as Good as a Minion
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If one of the rumors about Deep Striking being more of an in-game Infiltrate is true, Drop Pods would actually be getting more reliable than before.
From there it is dependent on restrictions on Deep Striking, Disembarking from a Vehicle, and what all else they put on the Drop Pod. Too much is unknown as to how much change the Drop Pod may, or may not, have.
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Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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