A whole new type of Space Marines! That might just be the most exciting thing to happen to the Imperium since Roboute Guilliman woke up from his 10,000 year nap and decided to save the galaxy. But what does their arrival mean? How will it affect your collection or army? What modelling options will you have? Read on to find out.
So, what’s a Primaris Space Marine?
These are a brand-new breed of warrior, commissioned by the Primarch Guilliman and developed in secret on Mars for the past 10,000 years by Archmagos Belisarius Cawl. Find out all about them and check out an awesome video here.
Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?
No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.
Will there be multiple types of Primaris Space Marines?
You bet. So far you’ve seen the Intercessors, the line infantry clad in Mk X armour, but there are plenty more on the way. And likely vehicles too…
Wait, Mk X armour?
Yup, these guys have new armour: combining the best bits of classic Horus Heresy-era plate, with some fancy tech developed more recently.
Can I field a whole army of Primaris Marines?
You totally can. From a background point of view, some Chapters, especially those decimated in the events of the Gathering Storm, now have entire companies of these new warriors. Others have incorporated squads of Primaris Space Marines into existing Battle Companies. And perhaps most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines.
I have an <insert favourite Chapter> army. Can I field Primaris Space Marines?
Any of the galaxy’s many hundreds of Codex Chapters can use Primaris Space Marines, along with many of the less Codex-compliant ones like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.
So, Primaris are just better in the game, right? What’s the point of using older Space Marines?
Marine to Marine, they certainly have some advantages over a Tactical Squad, but it comes at a cost. These guys will cost more points than standard Space Marines, so you’ll have fewer of them, and their weapon options will be different. For maximum tactical punch, you’ll want to bring all your Space Marines to the tabletop.
What if I don’t want to use them?
Well, aside from missing out on some cool new models and tactical options for your army, then that’s totally cool. You certainly don’t have to include Primaris Space Marines in your Space Marines army. Though when you see the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought, you’ll want to. Primaris Dreadnought? Did I write that…? Nah. Moving on.
Are the kits compatible with existing Space Marine kits?
Good Question. There are certainly elements of the existing Space Marines kits that will be cross-compatible, while the new armour mark means that some parts won’t mix as easily. Shoulder pads and helmets are the same scale, and will still work, whereas the legs, torso and arms are different, and not quite as interchangeable. In terms of the Primaris sets themselves, you’ll have loads of fun kit-bashing them.
Can I use these guys alongside my Astra Militarum army?
Yeah you can. These new Space Marines will be available to use alongside all Imperial armies to fill some battlefield roles your army might normally struggle with.
Do the Primaris Space Marines play nice with the Adeptus Custodes?
They sure do. Many of the Emperor’s elite golden guard are accompanying Gulliman and the Primaris Space Marines on the Indomitus Crusade.
But I play Chaos! Where are my super-super-human reinforcements?
First off, that’ll teach you for turning your back on the Emperor. Secondly, did you not see the Death Guard teaser video? The Chaos Gods have not been idle – we guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys in the not too distant future.
Guilliman be blessed, these guys are rad! When can I get them?
Primaris Space Marines will be available alongside the new edition of Warhammer 40,000. Oh and while we’re on the subject, we’ll be announcing the release date before the end of this month…
For the past 10,000 years, the galaxy has been defended by the awesome might of the Adeptus Astartes – warriors whose origins date back to the gene-forging of the Space Marine Legions on ancient Terra, before even the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy that followed it.
Over the millennia, some have tried to emulate the process of creating Space Marines, both for good and evil, but none have managed to equal the genius of the Emperor’s finished creation.
Until today.
For ten centuries, Archmagos Dominus Belisarius Cawl has been working on a task set for him by the Primarch Roboute Guilliman: a new legion of warriors. Now, though the Imperium is poised on the brink of annihilation, his task is complete…
The Primaris Space Marine is a new breed of hero for this, the darkest age in the Imperium’s history. These new warriors are the next step in the evolution of the Emperor’s Angels of Death – genetically altered from their brethren to be bigger, stronger and faster – timely reinforcements to the Imperium’s armies as their enemies close in for the kill.
To aid them in battle, these new gene-forged warriors are equipped with new arms and armour forged on holy Mars itself.
The Primaris Space Marine here is an Intercessor wearing Mk X Tacticus armour, a suit that combines the most effective elements of ancestral Horus Heresy patterns of plate with more recent developments in power armour technology. He carries into battle a bolt rifle: the archetypal firearm of Space Marines, re-engineered, re-crafted and perfected*.
At the dawn of the Indomitus Crusade, these phenomenal new warriors join Guilliman as he fights to liberate the scattered bastions of the Imperium. Some, Guilliman has forged into new Space Marine Chapters, whole brotherhoods comprised only of these new warriors. Others he has offered to the existing Space Marine Chapters. Many Chapter Masters have welcomed their Primaris brethren into their ranks, accepting the new reinforcements gladly. Others, though, view these new creations with suspicion or outright hostility, claiming that the Emperor’s work should not have been meddled with.
Though they are a step removed from their brothers, the Primaris Space Marines still bear the gene-seed of their Primarchs, and some dissenting voices worry how this new type of warrior will react with the known genetic quirks and flaws of some of the more unusual Chapters…
*Range 30, Strength 4, AP -1 and Rapid Fire.
Exciting times! The Primaris Space Marines sound like they are going to kick serious face in the far future. Classic Guilliman, playing the long game with this ace up his power-armoured sleeve the whole time he was in stasis. The newly triumphant forces of Chaos had better watch out.
So what does this mean for you gamers and collectors out there and your Space Marine armies? Well, we’ve made this FAQ that explains exactly how this new breed of warriors fit into your collections. For those of you curious as to exactly how these new Space Marines work in the game, we’ll have more details on that later today, so stay posted.
So, discuss. I'm interested in seeing what they do on the table, and more images of the models. I'm a big fan of that chestplate design, very sleek and clean.
Ok, call me stupid, but what happened to Mark IX? they just skipped a number and went straight from the Mark VIII errant that the Deathwatch use because it's the "best there is" to Mark X?
ChaosDad wrote: Ok, call me stupid, but what happened to Mark IX? they just skipped a number and went straight from the Mark VIII errant that the Deathwatch use because it's the "best there is" to Mark X?
What did I miss?
Power Armor runs on Windows. For example, Errant uses Windows 8, and Aquila uses Windows 7. Because Windows 9 doesn't exist, the Mechanicus couldn't find a sacred OS for Mk. IX power armor, and needed to skip right to Mk. X.
Remember when everyone insisted that the leaked marine was a kitbash? Pepperidge farms rememembers...
I must insist that all those who denied the truth come forward to prostrate and humble themselves before the true believers and apologize for not only being wrong, but for being total gakheads to those who believed.
Talamare wrote: Isn't part of the Grimdark lore that Humanity is decaying?
If you think, sir, that a new crusade in the galaxy by the Imperium is less grimdark, you have been alienated by imperial propaganda. The Humans in 40k are the real Great Devourer of the Galaxy. A powerfull Imperium only brings death to all, being it xenos or humans.
Spoiler:
We have here a case of the "Powerfull Imperium" bringing harmony and peace to a pacific xeno race
Talamare wrote: Isn't part of the Grimdark lore that Humanity is decaying?
It was, until GW's 'writers' completely lost sight of what made the 40k setting unique and interesting and started taking the fluff waaaaay too seriously.
Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?
No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.
This part is great news, I was remaining hopeful that the current marines wouldn't be invalidated and now we have that confirmed.
I'll be interested to see the new chapters and what they bring to the table, some fresh organisations to tell stories about will be welcome!
Kap'n Krump wrote: I'm not sure what I was expecting, but they don't really look all that different from normal marines. A bit taller, I guess.
I think the biggest change is the better proportions and much more natural looking poses, compared to the awkwardness of the current ones.
That and some slight changes with the designs, incorporating some older Mks of armour in there, like the helmets. I had hoped for them to go a little more out there with them though, but the new proportions and poses do really help a lot
They look very nice, and I think having the heads and shoulderpads be interchangeable is a nice touch. The bolt rifle (god, it's odd not writing bolter or boltgun) looks pretty awesome, although I'm sceptical at it's profile (it's better than a bolter in every way - these guys look to be entirely Marines +1 then - interested to see stats and points).
What will we see of the new Chapters to be created, perhaps reaching a par like that of the First Founders? A new generation of First Founders, even? An Ultramarine equivalent of Primaris Marines?*
Looks interesting, although I'm trying to figure out where they would fit into a Battle Company now I've finished mine!
I dont feel a need to rush out and buy them but i'm not opposed to them either they may find their way into my wolves if i start playing again with 8th.
All I care about is if I can eat them, and what fun, fun genetic horrors the nids can make to combat them. We got zoanthropes from the eldar, squigs from the orks, and tyrant guard from the marines. If you prey are stupid enough to make it, we deserve the rights to make something out of it to kill you with.
I'm going to guess the stat line won't be to crazy. Going to guess better BS and WS with S and T the same or vice versa. Armor equal to artificer armor. The bolt rifle is same as the bolt gun but with longer range, maybe the same as Tau pulse rifles?
I am digging the new model, I like the look of it. My question is will there be a termi variant?
Great new sculpt, incredible looking! However, couldn't it just have been a revised version of the regular Space Marine? Are these the 2 wound Space Marine variants?
Power Armor runs on Windows. For example, Errant uses Windows 8, and Aquila uses Windows 7. Because Windows 9 doesn't exist, the Mechanicus couldn't find a sacred OS for Mk. IX power armor, and needed to skip right to Mk. X.
Ah... That's why I prefer the other armies, the CSM who run on Linux, breaking free of the opressors, and even the Tau who run on Os X...
Don't know what the eldar use, though, something ancient and pretty... OMG...
Luciferian wrote: God damnit, they literally made Ultra-Ultramarines. And it sounds like they're releasing an entire new line of them with options for a full army.
Why, GW? Just why?
They use all the loyalist primarchs' gene-seed, actually. So there's Ultra-fists and Ultra-Salamanders.
Power Armor runs on Windows. For example, Errant uses Windows 8, and Aquila uses Windows 7. Because Windows 9 doesn't exist, the Mechanicus couldn't find a sacred OS for Mk. IX power armor, and needed to skip right to Mk. X.
Ah... That's why I prefer the other armies, the CSM who run on Linux, breaking free of the opressors, and even the Tau who run on Os X...
Don't know what the eldar use, though, something ancient and pretty... OMG...
Power Armor runs on Windows. For example, Errant uses Windows 8, and Aquila uses Windows 7. Because Windows 9 doesn't exist, the Mechanicus couldn't find a sacred OS for Mk. IX power armor, and needed to skip right to Mk. X.
Ah... That's why I prefer the other armies, the CSM who run on Linux, breaking free of the opressors, and even the Tau who run on Os X...
Don't know what the eldar use, though, something ancient and pretty... OMG...
THE ELDAR RUN ON AMIGA!!!
My AdMech run on Windows 95. Despite Microsoft dropping support thirty-nine milennia ago, the costs of writing new software to run their manufactora, Skitarii, Titans, and Servitors would bankrupt the entire Imperium.
To be honest I find it a bit cheesy , when do we get primary primaris marines I.e super super marines that outdo these ones, plus isn't Roundabout gullible lucky crawl continued his work when all thought he was a dead one.
This is probably the most absurd thing GW has ever done. I thought Ward writing was bad, and it was atrocious, but this entire concept is...just stupid.
If they wanted new truescale marines, just update the kits and just do a line revamp they way they did with Dark Eldar, no need to muck up the background like this in such a...nakedly idiotic manner.
While most of the 8E rules stuff makes it sound like an appreciable step above the last two editions, crap like this really kills the enthusiasm if this is the kind of stuff we can expect from the background at this point.
Talamare wrote: Isn't part of the Grimdark lore that Humanity is decaying?
It was, until GW's 'writers' completely lost sight of what made the 40k setting unique and interesting and started taking the fluff waaaaay too seriously.
Looking at the galaxy map, humanity has taken a really big hit. It took Cawl 10,000 years to come up with improved space marines and armor, something the Emperor did at the foundation of the imperium in what, a few centuries? This is the Imperium raging against the dying of the light. They might just stabilize a portion of human space, but they'll lose a lot of it in the process. Further, keep in mind the Imperium is still way, way, waaaaaay behind humanity at its peak during the 'Dark Age of Technology'.
Vaktathi wrote: This is probably the most absurd thing GW has ever done. I thought Ward writing was bad, and it was atrocious, but this entire concept is...just stupid.
If they wanted new truescale marines, just update the kits and just do a line revamp they way they did with Dark Eldar, no need to muck up the background like this in such a...nakedly idiotic manner.
While most of the 8E rules stuff makes it sound like an appreciable step above the last two editions, crap like this really kills the enthusiasm if this is the kind of stuff we can expect from the background at this point.
I agree. Of all of the things they could have done, creating a new super cool more awesomest Space Marines faction is one of the worst.
This is ridiculous, and goes against tone, fluff, setting, everything 40k is about. This is at the level of self parody. But is probably transitory. Over time, ALL marines will be like that, the older ones will be phased out. Is a gimmick to have the old and new models in the same moment on the tabletop. Good grief, I am so happy I quit and I just play for nostalgia now and then with the old lads.
Aye, and it really screams that GW just has bankrupted their creative abilities, if *this* was the best thing they could come up with, with all the lore and writing staff they have, it doesn't speak well to their remaining competencies.
Vaktathi wrote: This is probably the most absurd thing GW has ever done. I thought Ward writing was bad, and it was atrocious, but this entire concept is...just stupid.
If they wanted new truescale marines, just update the kits and just do a line revamp they way they did with Dark Eldar, no need to muck up the background like this in such a...nakedly idiotic manner.
While most of the 8E rules stuff makes it sound like an appreciable step above the last two editions, crap like this really kills the enthusiasm if this is the kind of stuff we can expect from the background at this point.
I agree. Of all of the things they could have done, creating a new super cool more awesomest Space Marines faction is one of the worst.
Honestly, I think it was just a way to introduce a better Space Marine model, without "invalidating" everyone's space marines. Even if it technically didn't do that, people would feel like it did, and there are a looooot of space marines out there. The backlash could have been huge. Now they're just sliding these new models in there, and maybe in 10 years time, we'll see what becomes of it, after everyone has accepted them, and maybe sales have shifted to sell a bunch of Primaris Marines.
That's what I think, at least. It was the only safe way to improve on the space marine model.
Vaktathi wrote: Aye, and it really screams that GW just has bankrupted their creative abilities, if *this* was the best thing they could come up with, with all the lore and writing staff they have, it doesn't speak well to their remaining competencies.
Oh, you know I don't argue against that.
EDIT: actually is smarter, nevermind. If you give rules to these new marines, the models will be sold at a faster rate. My bad. This is smart because all the battered wives will jump on the new models. Le good mr. Rountree meme, etc etc. GW now is not like when it was under the bad, evil and probably stinky mr. Kirby, amrite?
Vaktathi wrote: This is probably the most absurd thing GW has ever done. I thought Ward writing was bad, and it was atrocious, but this entire concept is...just stupid.
If they wanted new truescale marines, just update the kits and just do a line revamp they way they did with Dark Eldar, no need to muck up the background like this in such a...nakedly idiotic manner.
While most of the 8E rules stuff makes it sound like an appreciable step above the last two editions, crap like this really kills the enthusiasm if this is the kind of stuff we can expect from the background at this point.
Yep. All they had to do was sneak in the numarines as replacements to the old kits, and slowly wait for them to get phased in, just like size creep has worked for every other line and generation of models. Better for it that the marines would even be truescaled. Hell, they could even fluff it by just saying that it's a new mark of space marine armour (what with the interchangeable heads/shoulders and all).
But the fluff for these guys is instead just asinine.
Earth127 wrote: Also 40k has always been a parody of itself. So over the top it circles to hilarious remember it's about:
Space wolfvikings sailing cathedrals through hell to settle a feud with dust-filled egyptian sorcerers turning into birds.
Green fungie getting steampunk tech to work on a paintr job and believe
...
When was this golden age of creativity, originality and greatness of games workshop? Because I don't believe it ever existed.
Because your two examples are back when everything was silly and awesome. Yes, it was ridiculous, that was the point. It was supposed to be one big stupid joke. But now it's very clear that the current writing staff take it all as if it were actually a serious space opera, and all of that magic and goofiness is treated like some sort of old shame.
Vaktathi wrote: This is probably the most absurd thing GW has ever done. I thought Ward writing was bad, and it was atrocious, but this entire concept is...just stupid.
If they wanted new truescale marines, just update the kits and just do a line revamp they way they did with Dark Eldar, no need to muck up the background like this in such a...nakedly idiotic manner.
While most of the 8E rules stuff makes it sound like an appreciable step above the last two editions, crap like this really kills the enthusiasm if this is the kind of stuff we can expect from the background at this point.
Yeah...GW needs to proceed carefully. I'm fine with them progressing the story but the gathering storms books felt super rushed. Now we have ultra ultra marines? Whatever happened to:
"Forget the power of technology & science. For so much has been forgotten never to be relearned? For in the future there is only WAR." ?
We are drifting away from what makes 40K great. Stay true to the grimdark.
I really wonder how big the scale difference is gonna be. Helmet and shoulder pads are the same size? But the torso and legs are different. They seem like they're just.... thicker.
I just don't understand the point. What role are these models supposed to fill in a Space Marine army that they were currently lacking?
Did SM really need a new melee unit, mid line unit, or back line unit? Will these replace vanguard vets or centurions? I just don't see how these will fit as anything but a new elite stand alone army.
Yeah...GW needs to proceed carefully. I'm fine with them progressing the story but the gathering storms books felt super rushed. Now we have ultra ultra marines? Whatever happened to:
"Forget the power of technology & science. For so much has been forgotten never to be relearned? For in the future there is only WAR." ?
We are drifting away from what makes 40K great. Stay true to the grimdark.
Seriously?
How much more fething grimdark can we get?
The Imperium is split in half by a gigantic frigging warp rift.
Daemons are manifesting all over the place.
The biggest Black Crusade in history made it through, successfully, and even destroyed the Cadian Gate and the Pylons that held the Eye of Terror in check.
We have a few small bright spots for the Imperium in the form of Guilliman returning and Cawl's "Primaris Marine" project finally coming to fruition, with Guilliman launching the "Indomitus Crusade" to retake territory that was just months prior Imperial turf...
Yeah...GW needs to proceed carefully. I'm fine with them progressing the story but the gathering storms books felt super rushed. Now we have ultra ultra marines? Whatever happened to:
"Forget the power of technology & science. For so much has been forgotten never to be relearned? For in the future there is only WAR." ?
I think that the entire premise of 40k could (at least, up until relatively recently) and should be summed up as 40000 years of:
"...and they didn't learn a thing"
Sadly, the same could potentially be said of GW's writing staff, who may have taken that credo a bit too seriously.
But hey, at least the rules guys seem to be on a better track, and the models are gosh darn pretty. Really though, I've mostly just been trying my best to ignore pretty much all of the fluff that came out since (very) early-on in 5th.
Well i guess it's their way of face for gw. They are the new gw after all but im gonna stick by my thoughts that this will eventually be the new scale of marines and possibly be how they retcon the special snowflake chapters
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: So, if a normal space marine is 13 points how much do you think these guys will cost per model?
14 or more.
I'm guessing they'll be 20 points or more, depending on how their statline changes. These ones will need to be both stronger and tougher than their older brethren, and I don't know if that's going to be signified by additional Strength/Toughness, or close combat attacks with -1AP and +1 Wound.
I'm kind of Meh about them. So long as game wise they are balanced I will be fine with them.
I'm not too keen on the Fluff surrounding them. It could be that they were being created during the Horus Heresy and the Imperium simply ran out of time. Given that the Imperium probably wouldn't have been too keen on the idea of Super Space Marines once the Horus Heresy ended, the project was quietly forgotten, but continued slowly in secret (under Guillimans orders). Given the amount of knowledge and resources lost during the Heresy, production slowed (to a crawl) and its only now that Guilliman is back that the project is being revealed. That angle I could get behind.
I'll be very curious as to how the Space Marine Chapters react (and interact) with the Primaris Marines. I would imagine there would be resentment from a lot of Chapters, given that the Primaris aren't from their homeworld, don't share the traditions and such like.
I for one welcome nu marines I kind of like the progression, maybe working towards a greater less grimdark universe though it seems they are swoing the seeds for an imperium civil war or divided imperimm at the least.
I am hoping numarines are just like an upgrade for existing units. tac marines 13 points upgrade to numarines for say 5 ppm (or whatever their profile makes them worth) same for other units like Devistators or sternguard. can be numarines for x points per model. though i hope for simplicity sake it is upgrade the whole squad not just per model upgrade in the squad.
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: So, if a normal space marine is 13 points how much do you think these guys will cost per model?
14 or more.
I'm guessing they'll be 20 points or more, depending on how their statline changes. These ones will need to be both stronger and tougher than their older brethren, and I don't know if that's going to be signified by additional Strength/Toughness, or close combat attacks with -1AP and +1 Wound.
I'll be curious to see how they come out. I think they'll have more than just +1 wound.
I was personally hoping these would be more like primarch MC status, but it sounds like they'll just be marines +1, although i have little to base that on.
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: So, if a normal space marine is 13 points how much do you think these guys will cost per model?
Well, current marines are 14/model. In the new edition they are 13/model.
Strike squad Grey Knights are 22/model. I would expect them to go down to about 20/model.
So, rough guess on these new marines would be if their armor is 3+ then 18pt/model. If it's 2+ then they will run 24-25/model.
Eh, that statline and wargear bore me. There's no need for them in my army when I have Grey Hunters that do the same thing for less points. Maybe I'll get one of the character ones if they have something interesting.
People wanting 2 wound space marines for the longest time, now they come out and its the end times. People running around screaming, everythings on fire, sirens blaring, salt levels reaching critical mass. Good times
So my best friend gets banned on his first post for agreeing with a comment of mine because paranoid Peregrine thinks its a puppet account I created just to agree with myself (?)
Meanwhile this recently created obvious troll just gets to shout nonsense all day without any fact-checking, whining about anything and everything. Nothing happens.
So, extra wound, extra attack, extra 6" range and AP -1 on the weapon. I wouldn't bet money on them not having upgrade options, just that GW has chosen not to reveal them as yet.
I don't feel as if this requires running out and buying a whole new army's worth of these guys. Maybe a squad or two for funsies, but not a vast new investment.
Still, you got to admit, they look better than Centurions.
The models are great so of course I'll pick some up, but I'm having a hard time seeing how 5 man only squads of slightly better tacticals with no specials will fit into any of my lists.
I just don't know what to do with these guys and it's a shame if they just sit on the shelf.
Looks good, nothing terribly fancy, just an extra wound, attack and a better bolter. Looks like GW is paving the way for people to run not only true-scale, but somewhat more fluff-matching marines.
Just another elite option. I see them as being Ob Sec masters. Since you only get 5 guys and no special weapons. 2 wounds with a long range rifle these guys are going to be awesome as a secondary fire line and holding objectives.
So my best friend gets banned on his first post for agreeing with a comment of mine because paranoid Peregrine thinks its a puppet account I created just to agree with myself (?)
Meanwhile this recently created obvious troll just gets to shout nonsense all day without any fact-checking, whining about anything and everything. Nothing happens.
Gotta love this site.
So how much power do you think Peregrine has, exactly? And how incompetent do you think the mods are?
So my best friend gets banned on his first post for agreeing with a comment of mine because paranoid Peregrine thinks its a puppet account I created just to agree with myself (?)
Meanwhile this recently created obvious troll just gets to shout nonsense all day without any fact-checking, whining about anything and everything. Nothing happens.
Gotta love this site.
I am sorry your friend got banned. There is no reason to take it out on me.
Also "new" my acct has a few days on it.
Back on topic ...
Do you think this is the first step to replacing all marine models?
Still, you got to admit, they look better than Centurions.
low bar, what i picked up after my dog on our walk this morning looked better than centurions, but I admit I do like these numarine models and will likely pick up a few kits esp if they come in a starter box.
Is anyone else stepping back and appreciating how weak a TAC squad is now?
"And they shall know no fear..." and that's really, really good, considering if they did know fear, they'd be crapping their pants as their bullets bounce off Imperial Guardsman's paper armor.
It took 10,000 years to effectively make a marine with 1 extra wound, and a boltgun that is still weaker than 7th edition boltgun. lol..
Ok, just seen the new Dataslate for the Primaris Marines. What I am going to say - I think the Primaris Marines Datasheet bodes well for 8th Edition. These are new models, but they haven't had a bunch of special rules bundled onto them, they haven't been given a huge points discount and they aren't a MUST BUY unit.
If you are looking for a solid line unit, these are your guys. But if not, you have plenty of other units to pick from.
Not sure what these guys are supposed to be. seems like a useless cross between terminators and tacticals. the AP on the bolters is nice if the regular marine boltguns don't have AP, but if they also are AP-1 it seems rather pointless to have these guys, too. Appreciate the new kits though. Might grab some to build a Command Squad or something, unless the rules are actually interesting in some way
Marmatag wrote:Is anyone else stepping back and appreciating how weak a TAC squad is now?
"And they shall know no fear..." and that's really, really good, considering if they did know fear, they'd be crapping their pants as their bullets bounce off Imperial Guardsman's paper armor.
It took 10,000 years to effectively make a marine with 1 extra wound, and a boltgun that is still weaker than 7th edition boltgun. lol..
How is bolter worse? It's the equivalent of 30" S4 AP4 now?
Again, if a Tactical Squad is weaker, that probably means cheaper. Also, how is a Tactical Squad weak now? The only thing we know they've lost is one point of Leadership, and now don't just ignore 5+/6+ armour. If anything, with armour, at least Space Marines will get saves against weapons that once were AP 3 and lower. The only thing where they're weaker is against AP4 equivalents.
nekooni wrote:Not sure what these guys are supposed to be. seems like a useless cross between terminators and tacticals. the AP on the bolters is nice if the regular marine boltguns don't have AP, but if they also are AP-1 it seems rather pointless to have these guys, too. Appreciate the new kits though. Might grab some to build a Command Squad or something, unless the rules are actually interesting in some way
Regular bolters don't seem to be AP-1. These guys are just like normal, except have a better bolter and an extra attack and wound.
Marmatag wrote: It took 10,000 years to effectively make a marine with 1 extra wound, and a boltgun that is still weaker than 7th edition boltgun. lol..
This bolt rifle is better than a 7th edition bolt gun. Maybe not against Guardsmen specifically, but against most things.
The save modifier system replacing the AP system meant AP5 guns of old basically had to turn in to 0 modifier otherwise we'd have the same problem we had in 2nd edition where armour wasn't worth a whole lot.
2 questions 1 how can new marines have dreadnoughts already there new and haven't had time to get badly injured.
2ndly how will the dreadnought be better as the marine inside is a husk and his better speed etc is irrelevant
1) A 5 man unit is 1pp more than normal marines. They stay at 5 man and can not take special weapons. 2w was a shock. So no combat squads.
2) Granades are be model now and a normal shooting attack from looks of it. 6" range
3) frag is d6 S3 D1
4) krak is S4 ap-1 D3
5) shooting definitely happens in CC now and does not add to attacks for having it as a second cc weapon.
Lot to think over.
#2 seems like a leap. We don't know how the grenade rule reads. It could read just like it does now "one model in a unit may use a grenade for their shooting attack." At d6 shots, it actually seems pretty likely.
Has there ever been a time in this hobby where skeptics were more thoroughly blown the feth out?
Yes, they said the exact same things about the leaked Tau images that had the new crisis suits interspersed throughout the background shots.
Along with a healthy dose of 'Tau are already getting two new big suits, no way they'd update crisis suits and fire warriors too'.
Bear in mind that they weren't going off of a blurry picture of an unpainted single model either, they were arguing the crisis suits were, at most, extensive conversions that were being included in official splash images for... reasons.
Marxist artist wrote: 2 questions 1 how can new marines have dreadnoughts already there new and haven't had time to get badly injured.
2ndly how will the dreadnought be better as the marine inside is a husk and his better speed etc is irrelevant
Both very valid questions with answers that are likely to boil down to, "because $".
On the one hand, at least they're releasing some pretty awesome new models.
On the other hand, Space Marines are the last faction that needs awesome new models, let alone ones that represent Super-Superhuman marines.
icn1982 wrote: Ok, just seen the new Dataslate for the Primaris Marines. What I am going to say - I think the Primaris Marines Datasheet bodes well for 8th Edition. These are new models, but they haven't had a bunch of special rules bundled onto them, they haven't been given a huge points discount and they aren't a MUST BUY unit.
If you are looking for a solid line unit, these are your guys. But if not, you have plenty of other units to pick from.
I inferred the opposite. I think they lack a bunch of special rules because these are the line Marines of the future. Space Marines are getting slowly scaled to be a small elite army, instead of an elite horde army like they could be. This whole thing looks a lot like the 'Hollywood Marine" article in White Dwarf a ways back...
Do people that do True scale marines now have to take these guys and cut out a few millimeters here and there in order to make their normal tactical marines. That way, their models match..
1) A 5 man unit is 1pp more than normal marines. They stay at 5 man and can not take special weapons. 2w was a shock. So no combat squads.
I'm guessing this are cut down stats, I expect to see special weapons.
2) Granades are be model now and a normal shooting attack from looks of it. 6" range
Well, we know they're a shooting attack, we don't know what that entails yet. They have the type "grenade" so "grenade" might have some separate rules we don't know about.
5) shooting definitely happens in CC now and does not add to attacks for having it as a second cc weapon.
Do people that do True scale marines now have to take these guys and cut out a few millimeters here and there in order to make their normal tactical marines. That way, their models match..
The reality of a real military is that the "special weapons" in this setting would become standard issue due to how poorly boltguns perform in practice. Especially for an "elite" fighting force. If getting shot off the table trivially by Tau means "elite".
So the profile, weapon options aside, is basically what marines should have been all along. With the scale their models should have been from the start too.
And they're going to update the scale of the rest of line. Awesome.
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Now could we make their marketing drivel and the fluff go away?
"Marines aren't redundant", yea sure... you keep telling yourself that. They're not, for now, simply because the rest of the line hasn't been updated yet.
This totally doesn't mean that marines are going to get initial rules never to be touched again.
The whole fluff thing is just....*eye roll*. They could have just as easily given the new marines for a new edition the numarine profile and then sell them as a tactical squad, what with their tacticus *sigh* armour.
But nooo, that wouldn't have made the same amount of sales as Wardian marines.
Martel732 wrote: The reality of a real military is that the "special weapons" in this setting would become standard issue due to how poorly boltguns perform in practice. Especially for an "elite" fighting force. If getting shot off the table trivially by Tau means "elite".
"That said, like the Legions of the Great Crusade, they don’t have options for heavy or assault weapons within the squad, so there are still situations where a Tactical Squad will be better suited – bringing lascannons, flamers or other specialist weapons with them for greater tactical flexibility."
And for shooting in CC and pistol not giving another attack
"Though not melee specialists, the Intercessor’s two attacks makes them pretty handy in a fight. In close combat, they can also use their bolt pistols to fire point-blank into enemy units in the shooting phase. "
Martel732 wrote: The reality of a real military is that the "special weapons" in this setting would become standard issue due to how poorly boltguns perform in practice. Especially for an "elite" fighting force. If getting shot off the table trivially by Tau means "elite".
On record: Lore and gameplay are different.
I mean standard issue in the game. What's standard issue in the lore has no bearing because of the performance disparity. The boltgun, by rights, should disappear from the table top force because of its lack of efficacy.
In terms of models I like them. Unlike the SIGMARINES, the absurd Centurions or other jazz we've gotten recently, these things actually look decent. Proportions are (mostly) there (I still think they got way too much leg day) so unlike the Centurion or Dreadknight it isn't horrible to look at.
However the whole concept weirds me out. It runs into the same problem as Centurions in that it's trying to fill a niche that's unnecessary (I'm assuming these guys will be somewhere in between a Terminator and a Marine in terms of durability and firepower). Not to mention the just-released Custodes could have filled the same role in the army if it was really that needed. Lore-wise, it's a total ass pull. And finally from a collector's perspective, it runs into all sorts of little niggles as they will look out of place in my own marine armies, but are similar enough that I don't feel justified starting a new collection just for them.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: In terms of models I like them. Unlike the SIGMARINES, the absurd Centurions or other jazz we've gotten recently, these things actually look decent. Proportions are (mostly) there (I still think they got way too much leg day) so unlike the Centurion or Dreadknight it isn't horrible to look at.
However the whole concept weirds me out. It runs into the same problem as Centurions in that it's trying to fill a niche that's unnecessary (I'm assuming these guys will be somewhere in between a Terminator and a Marine in terms of durability and firepower). Not to mention the just-released Custodes could have filled the same role in the army if it was really that needed. Lore-wise, it's a total ass pull. And finally from a collector's perspective, it runs into all sorts of little niggles as they will look out of place in my own marine armies, but are similar enough that I don't feel justified starting a new collection just for them.
This is why I think they are just slowly redoing the scale of the marine armies, may take a few years but eventually I feel this will be the norm for marines size
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: In terms of models I like them. Unlike the SIGMARINES, the absurd Centurions or other jazz we've gotten recently, these things actually look decent. Proportions are (mostly) there (I still think they got way too much leg day) so unlike the Centurion or Dreadknight it isn't horrible to look at.
However the whole concept weirds me out. It runs into the same problem as Centurions in that it's trying to fill a niche that's unnecessary (I'm assuming these guys will be somewhere in between a Terminator and a Marine in terms of durability and firepower). Not to mention the just-released Custodes could have filled the same role in the army if it was really that needed. Lore-wise, it's a total ass pull. And finally from a collector's perspective, it runs into all sorts of little niggles as they will look out of place in my own marine armies, but are similar enough that I don't feel justified starting a new collection just for them.
Custodes are their own niche, and still (probably) better than any Astartes, even the Primaris.
I get the feeling that the ranking of power and durability will go Scouts -> Tactical Marines -> Primaris Marines -> Terminators -> Centurions -> Custodes. Custodes are as tough as Centurions in 7th edition rules, but have access to better wargear in the fluff. My guess is that this will stay the same, at least for the time being, with Custodes still being much tougher than standard Astartes.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: In terms of models I like them. Unlike the SIGMARINES, the absurd Centurions or other jazz we've gotten recently, these things actually look decent. Proportions are (mostly) there (I still think they got way too much leg day) so unlike the Centurion or Dreadknight it isn't horrible to look at.
However the whole concept weirds me out. It runs into the same problem as Centurions in that it's trying to fill a niche that's unnecessary (I'm assuming these guys will be somewhere in between a Terminator and a Marine in terms of durability and firepower). Not to mention the just-released Custodes could have filled the same role in the army if it was really that needed. Lore-wise, it's a total ass pull. And finally from a collector's perspective, it runs into all sorts of little niggles as they will look out of place in my own marine armies, but are similar enough that I don't feel justified starting a new collection just for them.
There's a lot I don't like about the nu marines, but I can get over it as long as I can convince myself that they're just truescale marines with more appropriate stats then they used to have.
If I stop to think about about what they really are it falls apart.
Still, they are better than other similar moves they have pulled in the past and likely still will.
I was going to start a true-scale CSM project soon. No need to fiddle with plasticard now.
I think GW did a good thing here by not making them Super Duper Marines, keeping stats respectable whilst introducing a superior Marine kit without invalidating existing armies.
Also, the FAQ states the DG which are incoming have equally been upscaled too.
Oh boy, it's really out.
I have a fear that Primaris Marines might be a power creep that will outperform everything for the sake of being "new".
Hope more armies will get upgrade to their weapon range - being stuck with radium 18" against those bolter rifles and Tau plasmas will be no fun
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: In terms of models I like them. Unlike the SIGMARINES, the absurd Centurions or other jazz we've gotten recently, these things actually look decent. Proportions are (mostly) there (I still think they got way too much leg day) so unlike the Centurion or Dreadknight it isn't horrible to look at.
However the whole concept weirds me out. It runs into the same problem as Centurions in that it's trying to fill a niche that's unnecessary (I'm assuming these guys will be somewhere in between a Terminator and a Marine in terms of durability and firepower). Not to mention the just-released Custodes could have filled the same role in the army if it was really that needed. Lore-wise, it's a total ass pull. And finally from a collector's perspective, it runs into all sorts of little niggles as they will look out of place in my own marine armies, but are similar enough that I don't feel justified starting a new collection just for them.
This is why I think they are just slowly redoing the scale of the marine armies, may take a few years but eventually I feel this will be the norm for marines size
They already said they won't be the only ones and that they will be getting vehicles to match so yea.
I don't seem them updating marines anymore from here on out. This resembles the abandoned factions from AoS too much, which are equally not redundant and you can still use them.
The Uber-Marines look good but that was to be expected. They remind me of a poor man´s Tactcal Squad, if you just perceive them from model aesthetic pov.
These guys resemble old-school Thousand Sons without any heavy or special weapons. Even the Sarge hasn´t access to power weapons of any kind. That´s just boring.
I have still 16 Tacticals to paint and these guys just don´t scratch my itch.
Furthermore a lot of marines will develop inferiority complexes because of the bolt rifles and better statline of Roboute´s boys.
Being more elite than elite was the domain of Veterans/Terminators. Well, that´s now a thing from the past.
I'm shocked people are talking about the firepower here with some level of worry.
A heavy bolter fires STR5 -1 AP, with 3 shots, at 36"
Are you afraid of heavy bolter marines? If not, you shouldn't be afraid of these. Unless they get some sick wargear options, they're just an admission that your tactical squads are bunk.
Kandela wrote: Oh boy, it's really out.
I have a fear that Primaris Marines might be a power creep that will outperform everything for the sake of being "new".
Hope more armies will get upgrade to their weapon range - being stuck with radium 18" against those bolter rifles and Tau plasmas will be no fun
Don't worry. With Triaros Armored Conveyors presumably being given to us in Fires Of Cyraxus, we won't have to suffer much longer*.
Skitarii Rangers may actually become viable due to AP -1, as well.
*Fires Of Cyraxus not guaranteed to actually come out
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: In terms of models I like them. Unlike the SIGMARINES, the absurd Centurions or other jazz we've gotten recently, these things actually look decent. Proportions are (mostly) there (I still think they got way too much leg day) so unlike the Centurion or Dreadknight it isn't horrible to look at.
However the whole concept weirds me out. It runs into the same problem as Centurions in that it's trying to fill a niche that's unnecessary (I'm assuming these guys will be somewhere in between a Terminator and a Marine in terms of durability and firepower). Not to mention the just-released Custodes could have filled the same role in the army if it was really that needed. Lore-wise, it's a total ass pull. And finally from a collector's perspective, it runs into all sorts of little niggles as they will look out of place in my own marine armies, but are similar enough that I don't feel justified starting a new collection just for them.
This is why I think they are just slowly redoing the scale of the marine armies, may take a few years but eventually I feel this will be the norm for marines size
I think you hit the nail on the head. Also how is this going to effect 30k? Will 30k only have small-rines?
I think one of the worst parts of this, lore wise, is the fact that if I want to do an army completely made of the new scale marines I will never be able to use any of the old characters.
If they had just re scaled the line you could just wait for the resculpt of your favorite character. Now if you go all new marines you wont be able to use Tiggy or any of the cool old characters. At least not without them looking out of place next to all of the bigger dudes.
So primaris marines are sternguard with an extra wound an, only kraken rounds, and none of the other options. This may be one of the more pointless units in the game, unless they are hideously undercosted.
Also, can we acknowledge Cawl spent 10k years for an extra wound and a fancy looking bolter than only fires kraken rounds.
SilverAlien wrote: So primaris marines are sternguard with an extra wound an, only kraken rounds, and none of the other options. This may be one of the more pointless units in the game, unless they are hideously undercosted.
Also, can we acknowledge Cawl spent 10k years for an extra wound and a fancy looking bolter than only fires kraken rounds.
Haha i was saying the same thing.
It would have been far cooler to have created new primarchs from the Emperor's DNA, to be raised by Roboute Guilliman.
Although these will be a welcome addition to Grey Knights, for instance, since we don't really have good TAC options, and PAGK are overcosted garbage.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: In terms of models I like them. Unlike the SIGMARINES, the absurd Centurions or other jazz we've gotten recently, these things actually look decent. Proportions are (mostly) there (I still think they got way too much leg day) so unlike the Centurion or Dreadknight it isn't horrible to look at.
However the whole concept weirds me out. It runs into the same problem as Centurions in that it's trying to fill a niche that's unnecessary (I'm assuming these guys will be somewhere in between a Terminator and a Marine in terms of durability and firepower). Not to mention the just-released Custodes could have filled the same role in the army if it was really that needed. Lore-wise, it's a total ass pull. And finally from a collector's perspective, it runs into all sorts of little niggles as they will look out of place in my own marine armies, but are similar enough that I don't feel justified starting a new collection just for them.
This is why I think they are just slowly redoing the scale of the marine armies, may take a few years but eventually I feel this will be the norm for marines size
They already said they won't be the only ones and that they will be getting vehicles to match so yea.
I don't seem them updating marines anymore from here on out. This resembles the abandoned factions from AoS too much, which are equally not redundant and you can still use them.
Exactly. I think from here on out they won't update any existing marine armies. Then in a year they will stop making more of the old style marines, so once they sell out they sell out. Then in 2 years they will stop updating rules for non primaris marine units and then they will slowely fade away. We will lose the older models and all the special chapters, but we will finally just have one single marine army
1. So they fire Kraken rounds standard. That's okay I guess.
2. With that, 2 attacks, and 2 Wounds, these guys are basically a bully unit. The question is if that's a role I wanted.
3. Rainbow Warriors are still around!!!
Knockoff Rubricae with more wounds, attacks, a rending bolter, and pistols to shoot into CC? Cool.
2 PP lower? Not cool.
They're basically even as is in and you can see that from the Rubric set at how an extra 5 guys cost 6 PP. The ability to potentially cause a mortal wound doesn't seem worth the extra points considering the extras the big dudes get.
Knockoff Rubricae with more wounds, attacks, a rending bolter, and pistols to shoot into CC? Cool.
2 PP lower? Not cool.
They're basically even as is in and you can see that from the Rubric set at how an extra 5 guys cost 6 PP. The ability to potentially cause a mortal wound doesn't seem worth the extra points considering the extras the big dudes get.
They made it sound like chaos is getting some upgrades though. I think they plan on using these and new chaos models to further differentiate the loyalists from the traitors even more
Knockoff Rubricae with more wounds, attacks, a rending bolter, and pistols to shoot into CC? Cool.
2 PP lower? Not cool.
They're basically even as is in and you can see that from the Rubric set at how an extra 5 guys cost 6 PP. The ability to potentially cause a mortal wound doesn't seem worth the extra points considering the extras the big dudes get.
Q: What's the difference between your basic Rubricae Squad and the Primaris Marines?
A: The Sorcerer.
That's why they're 2 PP lower and why your extra 5 Rubricae cost 6PP(the same as Primaris Marines).
The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
What role do Scions play for Guard? What capability gap do they fill?
What about Ratlings? After all, people keep telling me to "just use Special Weapon Squads" instead if I don't want Ratlings...
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
It seems stupid because reimagining SM as a whole is exactly what they're doing, and they're only rolling it out this way to make it a gradual and gentle transition as opposed to making everyone's SM armies obsolete all at once.
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
You can't replace the enitre Space Marine line-up, including all special flavours of Marines and vehicles, in one go.
So GW starts of with (at least) Tacticals, Specialist Teams, Assault and a Dreadnaught. Maybe even a few Hero characters, as you can play a Primaris only army.
In two-ish years, we will only have Primaris Marines, as the story advances further and Primaris Marines replace more and more portions of the chapters. Mark my words.
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
You can't replace the enitre Space Marine line-up, including all special flavours of Marines and vehicles, in one go.
So GW starts of with (at least) Tacticals, Specialist Teams, Assault and a Dreadnaught. Maybe even a few Hero characters, as you can play a Primaris only army.
In two-ish years, we will only have Primaris Marines, as the story advances further and Primaris Marines replace more and more portions of the chapters. Mark my words.
I exalted you so that in 2ish years your words wil be marked
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
It seems stupid because reimagining SM as a whole is exactly what they're doing, and they're only rolling it out this way to make it a gradual and gentle transition as opposed to making everyone's SM armies obsolete all at once.
And doing it in the most cockamamie way possible in true GW fashion.
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
You can't replace the enitre Space Marine line-up, including all special flavours of Marines and vehicles, in one go.
So GW starts of with (at least) Tacticals, Specialist Teams, Assault and a Dreadnaught. Maybe even a few Hero characters, as you can play a Primaris only army.
In two-ish years, we will only have Primaris Marines, as the story advances further and Primaris Marines replace more and more portions of the chapters. Mark my words.
oh I'm sure that's exactly what will happen, but they didnt need fluff or distinct rules for all this.
They redid the entire Dark Eldar line in one go in 5E, radically altering the visual nature of the army and replacing the entire lineup of models, and didnt need any weird fluff or rules to make that work.
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
You can't replace the enitre Space Marine line-up, including all special flavours of Marines and vehicles, in one go.
So GW starts of with (at least) Tacticals, Specialist Teams, Assault and a Dreadnaught. Maybe even a few Hero characters, as you can play a Primaris only army.
In two-ish years, we will only have Primaris Marines, as the story advances further and Primaris Marines replace more and more portions of the chapters. Mark my words.
Sure you can. They're starting completely from scratch with a new edition and a new codex.
All they had to do was give marines the new profile and guns, rename a few things and release the new tactical marine box.
SilverAlien wrote: So primaris marines are sternguard with an extra wound an, only kraken rounds, and none of the other options. This may be one of the more pointless units in the game, unless they are hideously undercosted.
Also, can we acknowledge Cawl spent 10k years for an extra wound and a fancy looking bolter than only fires kraken rounds.
probably like a kid in school, he was occupied doing other things and when rowboat asked him how the project was going he already had last year's volcano so he made it a little bigger to hold more coke and alkeselzer,
he did a bang-up job taking credit for the working resurrection armor that the elder got working. and since teacher girlyman was greartful he gave the project an A and went into production probably disappointed in the halfassery but not wanting to hurt cawl's feelings.
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
You can't replace the enitre Space Marine line-up, including all special flavours of Marines and vehicles, in one go.
So GW starts of with (at least) Tacticals, Specialist Teams, Assault and a Dreadnaught. Maybe even a few Hero characters, as you can play a Primaris only army.
In two-ish years, we will only have Primaris Marines, as the story advances further and Primaris Marines replace more and more portions of the chapters. Mark my words.
oh I'm sure that's exactly what will happen, but they didnt need fluff or distinct rules for all this.
They redid the entire Dark Eldar line in one go in 5E, radically altering the visual nature of the army and replacing the entire lineup of models, and didnt need any weird fluff or rules to make that work.
DE were different though. To start they were one of the least popular armies, so tearing the bandaid off by replacing the whole line affected not many people. And then the whole model range was in a different edition so I don't think anyone was complaining. I assume they will do something similar with CSM
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
It seems stupid because reimagining SM as a whole is exactly what they're doing, and they're only rolling it out this way to make it a gradual and gentle transition as opposed to making everyone's SM armies obsolete all at once.
I think they are finally trying to Truescale the Marine line of products - and this is the way they decided to do it. It was gonna be painful regardless of what they decided to do and honestly would have expected them to never pull the trigger.
I'm not sure why making newer models would cause existing armies to be obsolete or result in pain to players. There are plenty of armies out there with obsolete and OOP models. People dont get particularly butthurt when something gets updated. I've got tons of metal terminators. GK, Chaos, and others. I'm not hacked off by the existence of plastic kit Terminators with larger size models at all though...
It's when it gets hamfisted over existing stuff that people get angry, at least beyond the subset that will get upset at anything and everything anyway.
If GW's goal was to "truescale" their line then what would they do for CSM? Would they use the Fabius Bile "New Man Project" / Enhanced Warriors to bring CSM up to par ( in regard to height and stats) or would they ignore them? In a recent article they said Chaos is getting some love in the way of Death Guard, but that's only comforting if you're a DG player.
MurderKing wrote: If GW's goal was to "truescale" their line then what would they do for CSM? Would they use the Fabius Bile "New Man Project" / Enhanced Warriors to bring CSM up to par ( in regard to height and stats) or would they ignore them? In a recent article they said Chaos is getting some love in the way of Death Guard, but that's only comforting if you're a DG player.
Well for chaos they can say that the gods are increasing their size for reasons. But chaos will easier just because their model range is majority very old, so just redoing the whole line won't upset as many people cause they get new models finally
Yea, if they plan on upscaling csm, it would be either, "eh whatever swollen by chaos", fabius, or some equally hamfisted lore explanation involving thunderwarriors.
Roknar wrote: Yea, if they plan on upscaling csm, it would be either, "eh whatever swollen by chaos", fabius, or some equally hamfisted lore explanation involving thunderwarriors.
I doubt numarines are taint proof, some will defect. as for the previous comments of how do we have dreds of them already... well all it takes is one falling to get a single dred and maybe it is a numodel due to a larger sarcophagus "oh well while we need to redesign may as well improve"
MurderKing wrote: If GW's goal was to "truescale" their line then what would they do for CSM? Would they use the Fabius Bile "New Man Project" / Enhanced Warriors to bring CSM up to par ( in regard to height and stats) or would they ignore them? In a recent article they said Chaos is getting some love in the way of Death Guard, but that's only comforting if you're a DG player.
If you've been paying attention - they HAVE been truescaling their Chaos line (at least a little). The Chaos Chosen in DV were truer-scale, the Thousand Sons were truer-scale.. and I guarantee that the new Death Guard will get a height boost.
Vaktathi wrote: The more I think about these guys, the less sense they make to me as a distinct new unit. What role do they fill on the table? What niche do they fill? What new capability do they bring or what capability gap do they fill?
None that I can see. They're just beefier versions of existing units, literally "Space Marines +1". They bring nothing really new or necessary or neat to the Space Marines.
It'd be one thing if GW was just reimagining SM's as a whole and all SM units were getting this makeover, but as a distinct addition to the line, this whole concept seems...
Stupid.
It seems stupid because reimagining SM as a whole is exactly what they're doing, and they're only rolling it out this way to make it a gradual and gentle transition as opposed to making everyone's SM armies obsolete all at once.
This is basically the unspoken secret. GW at least now knows that if they go on a crusade of invalidation like AoS did, it would just tank the initial release. Like those "massagers", you gotta work it in slowly and gradually in size or it's gonna tear the taint
Roknar wrote: Yea, if they plan on upscaling csm, it would be either, "eh whatever swollen by chaos", fabius, or some equally hamfisted lore explanation involving thunderwarriors.
I doubt numarines are taint proof, some will defect. as for the previous comments of how do we have dreds of them already... well all it takes is one falling to get a single dred and maybe it is a numodel due to a larger sarcophagus "oh well while we need to redesign may as well improve"
Maybe the dread is an attempt to hide already present defects? "Soooo, what are we gonna do about that first batch that are all crippled or worse?"
"Uhm... you mean those designed to fit into my new dreadnought design?" *fake smile*
Roknar wrote: Yea, if they plan on upscaling csm, it would be either, "eh whatever swollen by chaos", fabius, or some equally hamfisted lore explanation involving thunderwarriors.
I doubt numarines are taint proof, some will defect. as for the previous comments of how do we have dreds of them already... well all it takes is one falling to get a single dred and maybe it is a numodel due to a larger sarcophagus "oh well while we need to redesign may as well improve"
Maybe the dread is an attempt to hide already present defects? "Soooo, what are we gonna do about that first batch that are all crippled or worse?"
"Uhm... you mean those designed to fit into my new dreadnought design?" *fake smile*
haha i like that, tombs for the alpha and beta test numarines
I'm actually excited about these rules. I don't play Marines per se, but I own about a dozen Tac marines, 3 bikes, 2 Assault Marines and 2 terminators (all for painting purposes)
They've been great to use in Kill Team games with my kids (who don't yet have the attention spam for anything non-video game related).
These Primaris Marine rules could be a great way to upscale our games and introduce 8th edition to them.
Oddly, I've been collecting the Space Marines from various starter sets since Black Reach with the idea of using the 'rag-tag' poorly equipped fellas (I mean their heavy weapons are mostly Flamers and Missile Launchers...how much worse could it get? Heavy Rocks?).
Now, perhaps, the Lamenters would get reinforced by Primaris Marines! Only to see them horribly killed in a tragic accident on their first outing...
....to be interred in the new Primaris Super-Dreadnoughts!
ERJAK wrote:I will remind you that we have no idea what Sternguard do. For all we know they're a Tyranid unit now.
Fair enough, but consider the following:
1. Nu-marines fill a troops slot. So they're competing with tactical marines. To compensate for the snazzier gun, the extra wound and the extra attack, they will almost certainly cost more points.
[Given that they are power 6, my guess is that each one is going to cost 15-17 points per model.]
However:
2. They can't take special or heavy weapons.
So you are basically stuck with a less durable, less killy version of Thousand Sons.
I wonder if the addition and reliance on numarines in the fluff will have an effect on loyalist chapters. As in specifically spelled out.
Even without the influence of chaos this should warrant a stinkeye from some chapter masters and is ideal ground fo abaddon or whomever to mock them.
The future of mankind hinging on vatborn abominations that haven't seen a day of battle and already receive the honour of being interred in dreadnoughts. (because reasons)
Marines who spilled blood, theirs and their enemies, in the name of the emperor...only to be replaced by glorified children. Expected to follow their orders as well.
Yea, that doesn't sound familiar at all.
Besides there were rumours that one chapter would turn right?
(possibly NSFW)
Spoiler:
Basically this (skip to 0:48 for dramatic effect):
I'm happy at least they didn't go with that godawful MK VII helmet design that looks like a poor man's Darth Vader. At least this way they'll fit with my relic marines more smoothly. I would have preferred S5 T5 for fluffy marines but at 2 wounds it's still a significant improvement. Plus those bolt rifles look a lot more appealing than the joke that is current bolters.
GW really is going to push these things hard as they can with the rules, aren't they?
Kellevil wrote: I think one of the worst parts of this, lore wise, is the fact that if I want to do an army completely made of the new scale marines I will never be able to use any of the old characters.
If they had just re scaled the line you could just wait for the resculpt of your favorite character. Now if you go all new marines you wont be able to use Tiggy or any of the cool old characters. At least not without them looking out of place next to all of the bigger dudes.
Thats exactly my biggest problem with all of this. I have 0 problems with the new fluff or the new models, I really like them. But the fact that it will make my Seraphicus, Azrael, Urik the Slayer, etc... all midgets between a sea of giants... me don't like
Wyzilla wrote: I'm happy at least they didn't go with that godawful MK VII helmet design that looks like a poor man's Darth Vader. At least this way they'll fit with my relic marines more smoothly. I would have preferred S5 T5 for fluffy marines but at 2 wounds it's still a significant improvement. Plus those bolt rifles look a lot more appealing than the joke that is current bolters.
GW really is going to push these things hard as they can with the rules, aren't they?
Why everyone hates the Mark VII helmet? Is actually my favourite one (After the beakie one), they look angry!
Wyzilla wrote: I'm happy at least they didn't go with that godawful MK VII helmet design that looks like a poor man's Darth Vader. At least this way they'll fit with my relic marines more smoothly. I would have preferred S5 T5 for fluffy marines but at 2 wounds it's still a significant improvement. Plus those bolt rifles look a lot more appealing than the joke that is current bolters.
GW really is going to push these things hard as they can with the rules, aren't they?
It kind of sucks they look less gothic, and more uniform. Less variations in armor except for shoulderpads and insignia. The VII helmet for me was the iconic SM look for 40k. The new guys look cool but the lack of any subtle variation is kind of off putting. Especially considering how the last update of the tact squad included more variation in armor mks and more personalization options.
Maybe its just the starter set ones that are less detailed, and a multi part kit later will have more customization options. I'm still glad i'll finally get to use my chapter upgrade shoulderpads though!
I don't like the loooong bolters, err, bolt rifles. Those guys with the round thingies removed from the shin armour, the kneepads trimmed (didn't like it on Mk VIII, either) and normal bolters and heads woud be so much better at being regular Marines than normal "normal" Marine models.
Count me in team "I don't want this new Gathering Storm+ background".
Kellevil wrote: I think one of the worst parts of this, lore wise, is the fact that if I want to do an army completely made of the new scale marines I will never be able to use any of the old characters.
If they had just re scaled the line you could just wait for the resculpt of your favorite character. Now if you go all new marines you wont be able to use Tiggy or any of the cool old characters. At least not without them looking out of place next to all of the bigger dudes.
Thats exactly my biggest problem with all of this. I have 0 problems with the new fluff or the new models, I really like them. But the fact that it will make my Seraphicus, Azrael, Urik the Slayer, etc... all midgets between a sea of giants... me don't like
Wyzilla wrote: I'm happy at least they didn't go with that godawful MK VII helmet design that looks like a poor man's Darth Vader. At least this way they'll fit with my relic marines more smoothly. I would have preferred S5 T5 for fluffy marines but at 2 wounds it's still a significant improvement. Plus those bolt rifles look a lot more appealing than the joke that is current bolters.
GW really is going to push these things hard as they can with the rules, aren't they?
Why everyone hates the Mark VII helmet? Is actually my favourite one (After the beakie one), they look angry!
MK VII doesn't look gothic and it doesn't look original. Plus from a design perspective having a giant flat surface with weaker armor is asking for headshots to gut your armor. MK 3 and MK IV look a lot better, and MK VI is the most original looking piece of armor in 40k, as sci fi doesn't have hounskulls at all really.
Wyzilla wrote: I'm happy at least they didn't go with that godawful MK VII helmet design that looks like a poor man's Darth Vader. At least this way they'll fit with my relic marines more smoothly. I would have preferred S5 T5 for fluffy marines but at 2 wounds it's still a significant improvement. Plus those bolt rifles look a lot more appealing than the joke that is current bolters.
GW really is going to push these things hard as they can with the rules, aren't they?
It kind of sucks they look less gothic, and more uniform. Less variations in armor except for shoulderpads and insignia. The VII helmet for me was the iconic SM look for 40k. The new guys look cool but the lack of any subtle variation is kind of off putting. Especially considering how the last update of the tact squad included more variation in armor mks and more personalization options.
Maybe its just the starter set ones that are less detailed, and a multi part kit later will have more customization options. I'm still glad i'll finally get to use my chapter upgrade shoulderpads though!
This is iconic. MK VII just looks like a ripoff with the numbers filed off it and given an off brand name "Barth Cader"
You know, I am completely convinced at this point, that GW could send you all 2k armies of your choice, and a gift receipt to return it and get a new one... and everyone would STILL complain. Not trying to be a fussy one, but damn ya'll. People have been crying for years for a story advance, now we have one. Everyone flips out.
GW has earned every speck of hate they get by being lazy and mathematically inept. However, I think the neo-marines are far from their biggest offense.
I am not saying GW is without sin, I am just saying that I have NEVER seen such effort to appease the community as they have with 8E. Not to mention the sneak peaks, the amount of playtesting, the overall transperancy. It may just be the most vocal part of the community is the fussiest.
Traditio wrote: They're a worse version of Sternguard. The only advantage they get is the additional wound.
Wow! Where did you get the new rules for Sternguard?
Obviously, I meant "7th edition sternguard."
Clearly, I don't know what the new sternguard will look like (but how likely is it that they will change much?).
But even ignoring sternguard:
Intercessor marines are still terrible. We know for a fact that they are going to cost 16 ppm or more ("a fair few more points," etc).
And they can't bring heavy or special weapons.
Why would you take this unit?
I have a feeling we are seeing an incomplete picture with the Primaris marines at the moment. We've seen the "plasma-rifle" Primaris marine, so we know they CAN take specials somehow.
The question is, are Intercessors the Primaris tactical marine, and we will get special weapon squads like in 30k organization? Or is the entry incomplete? If you can field whole armies of these guys they will NEED specials/heavys to keep up.
I'm not breaking out the torch and pitchfork until I have all the data, but at the moment Intercessors do look super underwhelming rules wise.
Carnage43 wrote:The question is, are Intercessors the Primaris tactical marine, and we will get special weapon squads like in 30k organization? Or is the entry incomplete? If you can field whole armies of these guys they will NEED specials/heavys to keep up.
It explicitly says in the article that you're still going to need tactical marines, since tactical marines will be able to take special and heavy weapons, whereas intercessors won't.
Roknar wrote: Yea, if they plan on upscaling csm, it would be either, "eh whatever swollen by chaos", fabius, or some equally hamfisted lore explanation involving thunderwarriors.
I doubt numarines are taint proof, some will defect. as for the previous comments of how do we have dreds of them already... well all it takes is one falling to get a single dred and maybe it is a numodel due to a larger sarcophagus "oh well while we need to redesign may as well improve"
Maybe the dread is an attempt to hide already present defects? "Soooo, what are we gonna do about that first batch that are all crippled or worse?"
"Uhm... you mean those designed to fit into my new dreadnought design?" *fake smile*
haha i like that, tombs for the alpha and beta test numarines
I like that idea too.
The new Dreadnought has Primaris in its name, but maybe it's just a new model of dreadnought and any old Marine could be interred inside?
Maybe, just maybe, the new Marines aren't actually newly made, but just upgraded existing Marines? Like a chapter might send some of its Marines to Mars to get the new organs implanted that allow the Marine to use the new model of Power Armor? I guess they did mention these new Marines being used to reinforce chapters that had been decimated, so I guess they probably aren't upgrades.
Something that would make me pretty happy is if this played out kind of like a new Goge Vandire story. Something along the lines of Guilliman trying to take back parts of the galaxy that had been lost and fix what he sees and iniffiecient and backwards with the Imperium. Many Imperial officials, including Space Marine Chapter Masters, would resent his meddling and attempts to micro-manage. The numarines could be indoctrinated to be loyal to Guilliman personally, and have the function of not just bolstering the strength of chapters but also being Guilliman's eyes and ears (and maybe even enforcers) within the thousand or so chapters. This would put suspicious chapter masters in a pretty difficult position.
If the above were to happen, I would like it if all of Guilliman's micromanaging were to end badly as he discovered he was just not competent enough to try to run the entire Imperium. Other returning Primarchs could rise up to challenge him, and chapters could tear themselves apart as many of the old marines (and maybe some of the numarines) were loyal to their chapter masters and primarchs, while most of the numarines (and maybe some of the old marines) were loyal to Guilliman. Maybe instead of being killed like Vandire Guilliman could be driven from Terra to Ultramar, where he is better able to micro-manage a smaller number of planets, and the rest of the Imperium might be faced with even greater internal conflict as the forces that overthrew Guilliman start fighting amongst eachotehr.
Yeah, none of that will probably happen, but I think it would be fun.
Galef wrote:These Primaris Marine rules could be a great way to upscale our games and introduce 8th edition to them.
Why on earth would you want to?
They can't bring heavy or special weapons.
My kids are 10 & 12. Having them get used to 1 kind of weapons is hard enough. AP -1 on standard bolters is pretty good for small scale games of under 500pts Having 2 wounds each can also help my youngest not get so upset if 1-2 marines die (whereas that would be 2-4 regular Marines).
And we know they have Plasmas at least, so not having heavy weapons won't be missed in our games. I might get them a Dreadnought and a Rhino once all the rule come out so that it feels like a fuller army, but otherwise we use Eldar and Daemons in our games.
I know rule of cool isnt a game mechanic Traditio. Although I do field units in my army purely for rule of cool lol.
As for special/heavy weapons, they said you could field an entire army of numarines, which means we are seeing an incomplete look at them. Perhaps they will have support squads ala' 30k or maybe intercessor squads are going to be useful in a niche way that only other primaris marines can capitalize on?
Also, Dakka Dakka Flame, I really like that idea lol
Rysgame wrote: I know rule of cool isnt a game mechanic Traditio. Although I do field units in my army purely for rule of cool lol.
As for special/heavy weapons, they said you could field an entire army of numarines, which means we are seeing an incomplete look at them. Perhaps they will have support squads ala' 30k or maybe intercessor squads are going to be useful in a niche way that only other primaris marines can capitalize on?
The do specifically mention that he founds all new Chapters made up of the Astartes Primaris, so if its a regular codex unit, I'd expect a Primaris version of it at somepoint (and I am ok with this).
Rysgame wrote:they said you could field an entire army of numarines
Of course they did, and of course you can. It's a troop selection.
The fact that you can field an entire army of them doesn't make it a good idea.
See
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: They specifically mention that he founds all new Chapters made up of the Astartes Primaris, so if its a regular codex unit, I'd expect a Primaris version of it at somepoint (and I am ok with this).
Carnage43 wrote:The question is, are Intercessors the Primaris tactical marine, and we will get special weapon squads like in 30k organization? Or is the entry incomplete? If you can field whole armies of these guys they will NEED specials/heavys to keep up.
It explicitly says in the article that you're still going to need tactical marines, since tactical marines will be able to take special and heavy weapons, whereas intercessors won't.
no it says "tac squads can do this. intercessor squads cannot, so there are going to be times you might prefer a tac squad"
Rysgame wrote:they said you could field an entire army of numarines
Of course they did, and of course you can. It's a troop selection.
The fact that you can field an entire army of them doesn't make it a good idea.
you seem to be focusing excessivly on one stat and ignoring the others. they've openly said "THIS AIN'T IT" I'd expect primarius Assault and devestator squads at the very LEAST. and very likely Primrius Terminators, with some sort of new mk of terminator armor. we've also not got the full picture. primiarus terminator armor'll likely be 2+ 4++ 3 wounds or something.
BrianDavion wrote:no it says "tac squads can do this. intercessor squads cannot, so there are going to be times you might prefer a tac squad"
I quote:
"That said, like the Legions of the Great Crusade, they don’t have options for heavy or assault weapons within the squad, so there are still situations where a Tactical Squad will be better suited – bringing lascannons, flamers or other specialist weapons with them for greater tactical flexibility."
BTW did anyone else notice these guys have a Invul save?
BrianDavion wrote:no it says "tac squads can do this. intercessor squads cannot, so there are going to be times you might prefer a tac squad"
I quote:
"That said, like the Legions of the Great Crusade, they don’t have options for heavy or assault weapons within the squad, so there are still situations where a Tactical Squad will be better suited – bringing lascannons, flamers or other specialist weapons with them for greater tactical flexibility."
BTW did anyone else notice these guys have a Invul save?
No they don't.
Where?
misread it. they where comparing em to terminators. they don't apparently. my bad.
and yeah, the quote is exactly what I said "tac squads are gonna be situationally more useful" but you gotta put that in context as well. they're talking the Intercessor squad, not "all Primaris space marines" I'd expect a devestator squad option and an assault marine squad option. possiably a special weapons squad as well ala the Heresy (my gut feeling is that these guys are gonna be more orginized akin to Heresy era Marines then 40k era marines)
BrianDavion wrote:no it says "tac squads can do this. intercessor squads cannot, so there are going to be times you might prefer a tac squad"
I quote:
"That said, like the Legions of the Great Crusade, they don’t have options for heavy or assault weapons within the squad, so there are still situations where a Tactical Squad will be better suited – bringing lascannons, flamers or other specialist weapons with them for greater tactical flexibility."
Which is not the same as saying that you need to take them. If someone wants to not take Tacs they can. You can get weapons in other places.
No they don't.
Where?
It doesn't the only mention is Terminators getting one.
Marmatag wrote: I'm thoroughly confused as to what battlefield role these guys will have.
if there's an assault squad, then yes, I would go with that.
Their Datasheet has the Troops symbol in the top corner, so I'm guessing they'll be Troops.
-
I think he means what role as troops do they have (and will there be an assault version), since they arent a flexible as Tac Squads. I think some sort of bulwark, maybe roll em around in Razorbacks for firesupport.
I would assume at somepoint they will have an assault squad.
Rysgame wrote: You know, I am completely convinced at this point, that GW could send you all 2k armies of your choice, and a gift receipt to return it and get a new one... and everyone would STILL complain. Not trying to be a fussy one, but damn ya'll. People have been crying for years for a story advance, now we have one. Everyone flips out.
Nobody said, "I hope the setting advances and I don't care how well it's written."
Depends on their points cost relative to naked tacticals, marginally better bolter notwithstanding, their twice as many wounds would make them perform better as MSU objective holders.
Ideally they should be to tacticals what tacticals are to scouts, ideally.
And of course if you run them exclusively they're your baseline mandatory troops, fielded however you feel necessary.
On second viewing of the trailer, we do see them depicted wielding power swords and special weapons, as well as an apothecary (who really stands out) and a banner bearer.
It's seems that structurally we may be seeing a lot of parallels between Space Marines and Space Marines Prime.
Most people are just miffed (like me) because this is like the whole rebasing thing as well. I'm willing to bet that if this was just a marine kit revamp instead of a new unit people would still be up in arms about it.
As for me, I'm just washing my hands of collecting astartes. Not in protest mind you, but because I already have something like 3 companies worth of marines now. This seems like it's going to be a whole new army on the horizon, and I do not have the capital to start another army, especially one that's basically made to invalidate other people's marine collections (not armies, collections. We all know the real reason they made this was because they know everyone and their grandpas have space marines out the wazoo). Plus, given by what we've seen, this might be finally the edition where my Tyranids can come back into the light.
That's actually probably the best way I have heard it put and pretty much describes why I'm not happy about it. It's not that it's invalidating my army, it's that it's invalidating my collection. It's like collecting all your space marines because they are the big hero / warriors of humanity only to be told lol yeah they are scouts now that are second class.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Yeah I'm not buying the who "It invalidates my collection." Argument, it doesn't you still have that army, its still in your collection.
This are still models you can make in your Chapter's colors and add to your collection. Not wanting something doesn't ruin a collection.
the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.
Backspacehacker wrote: That's actually probably the best way I have heard it put and pretty much describes why I'm not happy about it. It's not that it's invalidating my army, it's that it's invalidating my collection. It's like collecting all your space marines because they are the big hero / warriors of humanity only to be told lol yeah they are scouts now that are second class.
It's working remarkably well for me; Soul Drinkers *are* second class marines with second class gear, and, frankly, second class fluff. Keeping all of them bumming around with out of production armour, weapons and tactical doctrine whilst *good* marines lead the way is something i'm genuinely looking forward to, and renders my collection even more fluffy - which is nice.
That said, the plasma gun is not likely to go out of fashion, and NuMarines will die to them just as badly as the originals - who will probably pay less to wield them.
Also means I can start on a new chapter with justifications. Even if it is probably going to be IF.
Rock on the traitor Gulliman and his hypocritical 'no one man can command a space marine legion... unless he goes and manufactures them in secret and against the law' dictat.
Y'know these guys will be fantastic as razorbacks are concerned. Squads of five have the same amount of attacks as a ten man tactical squad and the same number of wounds. So in that fashion, they're actually cheaper. Taking Razorbacks also allows you to increase the total firepower of your army, especially with the changes made to lascannons making the spamming of lascannon razorbacks a fairly serious matter that can gut some pretty high point models.
Vaktathi wrote: the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.
Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.
Vaktathi wrote: the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.
Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.
Which they could have done by saying hey we are remitting marines, here are their new states and cost and new models.
Instead they did that and said they are now super space marines meaning your old guys are crappy now.
Vaktathi wrote: the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.
Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.
aye, though primarily what I was driving at was that Space Marines were already supposed to be the best of the best superhuman supersoldiers and all that. Reimagining them is fine, but creating a new, better class of Space Marines is the problem. Particularly when they otherwise are pretty much identical in terms of look, role, equipment, etc. The GK's at least had a specific niche and unique visual.
Reimagining them with new models and stats, fine. Creating different classes of Space Marine is the problem.
Vaktathi wrote: the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.
Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.
Which they could have done by saying hey we are remitting marines, here are their new states and cost and new models.
Instead they did that and said they are now super space marines meaning your old guys are crappy now.
I think I personally would have liked it more if they had just said it was a new version of power armor, and if they wanted to make the Marines more like they are in the fluff if they had just given all the Marines +1 Attack and Wound and a better bolter. The way they're doing it now means they'll have another type of Marine to try to make different while still maintaining balance. It also does undercut the image of the classic Space Marine as being so over-the-top awesome, and while I'm not a Marine player that makes me kind of sad.
That said, I've only seen the short version of the fluff surrounding the numarines and maybe it will be good enough to alleviate all my concerns. The models are really cool, IMO.
Vaktathi wrote: the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.
Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.
aye, though primarily what I was driving at was that Space Marines were already supposed to be the best of the best superhuman supersoldiers and all that. Reimagining them is fine, but creating a new, better class of Space Marines is the problem. Particularly when they otherwise are pretty much identical in terms of look, role, equipment, etc. The GK's at least had a specific niche and unique visual.
Reimagining them with new models and stats, fine. Creating different classes of Space Marine is the problem.
Pretty much, I could not have given a crap if they said, oh these are the same ones, lorewise, just with these stats/models we are trying to transition into a new scale.
Vaktathi wrote: the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.
Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.
Which they could have done by saying hey we are remitting marines, here are their new states and cost and new models.
Instead they did that and said they are now super space marines meaning your old guys are crappy now.
I think I personally would have liked it more if they had just said it was a new version of power armor, and if they wanted to make the Marines more like they are in the fluff if they had just given all the Marines +1 Attack and Wound and a better bolter. The way they're doing it now means they'll have another type of Marine to try to make different while still maintaining balance. It also does undercut the image of the classic Space Marine as being so over-the-top awesome, and while I'm not a Marine player that makes me kind of sad.
That said, I've only seen the short version of the fluff surrounding the numarines and maybe it will be good enough to alleviate all my concerns. The models are really cool, IMO.
I have my doubts the lore will be good considering right off the bat they are breaking lore
Being worked on for 10k years
Emperor somehow never knowing about them
Guliman knowing about this 10k years ago despite not being a psyker
Genetics was strictly off limits ESPECIALLY when it came to astartes DNA
Then all that gets hand waved away for numarines. It's not looking good.
To be fair, I don't see anything stopping any of us from saying, "oh yeah, these are those new guys," with our current collections. Assuming that Primaris Marines have equivalent units for everything, of course.
godardc wrote: They do look like modern troops,with the scops and no bling.
They are pretty but don't really belong to the 41st Millienium :/
On the contrary, the reason I love the primaris sculpts is because they remind me of the clean lines of the basic marines we got in 2nd Edition, before everything was festooned with purity seals, and skulls up the wazoo. They don't look like walking reliquaries, they look like the space marines that made me buy space marines back when I started (not that I hate the walking reliquary look either, I have my fair share of robed DA veterans with censers and literal reliquaries on their back, but the primaris throw me back to the more streamlined aesthetics marines started with).
They still look like they dropped out of a book of rejected 2000AD concepts, they still look like 40k to me.
I have my doubts the lore will be good considering right off the bat they are breaking lore
Being worked on for 10k years
Emperor somehow never knowing about them
Guliman knowing about this 10k years ago despite not being a psyker
Genetics was strictly off limits ESPECIALLY when it came to astartes DNA
Then all that gets hand waved away for numarines. It's not looking good.
Gulliman is a dissembler, a usurper and a danger to The Imperium. He has *always been this* as evidenced by The Unremembered Empire and its outcomes, his willingness to break the power of the legions except his own (effectively), and his insistence that his judgement of battle doctrine was superior to T'Emprah's vision which called for no less than 20 distinct legions and battle specialisations tuned to the psych and bio profile of his creations.
He has been consorting with warp tainted Eldar, a possibly heretical techpriest, and is ultimately responsible to no-one.That's quite apart from the possibility that the man walking around claiming to be Gulliman is a flesh puppet for some here-to-fore unrecognised Eldar witchery - something that would not be unprecedented.
In short, I firmly believe this is the start of Gulliman's heresy, and we'll see a new superfaction of humans at odds with both chaos and the imperium - with Imperial marines hindered or crippled by the numarines (Republicans?) turning against them from within.
I have my doubts the lore will be good considering right off the bat they are breaking lore
Being worked on for 10k years
Emperor somehow never knowing about them
Guliman knowing about this 10k years ago despite not being a psyker
Genetics was strictly off limits ESPECIALLY when it came to astartes DNA
Then all that gets hand waved away for numarines. It's not looking good.
Gulliman is a dissembler, a usurper and a danger to The Imperium. He has *always been this* as evidenced by The Unremembered Empire and its outcomes, his willingness to break the power of the legions except his own (effectively), and his insistence that his judgement of battle doctrine was superior to T'Emprah's vision which called for no less than 20 distinct legions and battle specialisations tuned to the psych and bio profile of his creations.
He has been consorting with warp tainted Eldar, a possibly heretical techpriest, and is ultimately responsible to no-one.That's quite apart from the possibility that the man walking around claiming to be Gulliman is a flesh puppet for some here-to-fore unrecognised Eldar witchery - something that would not be unprecedented.
In short, I firmly believe this is the start of Gulliman's heresy, and we'll see a new superfaction of humans at odds with both chaos and the imperium - with Imperial marines hindered or crippled by the numarines (Republicans?) turning against them from within.
I can't wait
GW doesnt have the cajones for something like that.
It could potentially be interesting, but they're not gonna make their core vanilla "aimed at kids" good guy faction into something like that.
It could potentially be interesting, but they're not gonna make their core vanilla "aimed at kids" good guy faction into something like that.
What's happening so far is exactly the kind of situation that could allow them to construct an uncomplicated good guy faction ala Sigmar instead of what we have in the Imperium; and end up with Good (republican), Neutral Xenos, Neutral Humans, and Evil.
But you're right, it's probably wishful thinking. The parallel universe where this is happening would be a fun place to live I think ;\
Guliman knowing about this 10k years ago despite not being a psyker
Genetics was strictly off limits ESPECIALLY when it came to astartes DNA
Both of those are answered by the fact that Guilliman ordered their creation after the Emperor's interment in the Golden Throne. He didn't just wake up and suddenly know about them, he woke up saw Cawl and asked him the status on the project he ordered him to do 10k year ago.
You understand that this isn't a legitimate in-game reason, yes?
Looking cool won't help you win games.
These models are going to be Ogryn levels of trash-tier.
Not everyone cares about finding the most efficient use of their points in order to win games. That's only one out of three "ways to play" in the new edition.
For many, games are about an experience regardless of the outcome. The sign of a good game is that it's also fun even if you lose. It's too early to say how well 8th will do in this area though.
People just don't have the same priorities and for some, these marines are exactly what they've been wanting for a long time.
They've already mentioned a dreadnought happening for sure, so I could see a viable army where all your intercessor squads deal with troops and your dreadnoughts have the anti-tank fire power. I'm not super worried about the distribution of heavy or special weapons and I'm sure that as more Primaris releases happen, there will be heavy and special weapons. There's already that image of guys with plasma guns floating around.
Vaktathi wrote: the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.
Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.
Which they could have done by saying hey we are remitting marines, here are their new states and cost and new models.
Instead they did that and said they are now super space marines meaning your old guys are crappy now.
Knockoff Rubricae with more wounds, attacks, a rending bolter, and pistols to shoot into CC? Cool.
2 PP lower? Not cool.
They're basically even as is in and you can see that from the Rubric set at how an extra 5 guys cost 6 PP. The ability to potentially cause a mortal wound doesn't seem worth the extra points considering the extras the big dudes get.
So I was curious enough to actually compare the two, and the thousand sons are significantly better, largely due to the sorcerer.
The sorcerer and 2+ armor carry the TS through melee. Primaris vs TS, all the bolt pistols average about .28 wounds vs .78 for the single warpflame pistol. The melee attacks of primaris average around .61 wounds, the sorc alone averages around 1.11 wounds with the force sword. So the sorc alone is basically putting out twice as many wounds as the primaris in combat. Even with the extra wounds, the primaris marines come up short.
At range, primaris will inflict about .555 of a wound each turn on average, compared to Rubrics .888 of a wound per round ignoring the sorcerer, who averages out a mortal wound a turn on his own if my understanding of psychic tests is correct. That means .555 vs 1.888 total, 3 times as many wounds. This doesn't take into account the slight edge of 30 vs 24 range, as well as ignored the sorcerer's ranged weapon given how short range the warpflame pistol is.
Basically, the sorcerer is amazing and carries the unit, putting out roughly twice as many wounds as the entire primaris squad. Even with double the wounds primaris can't really keep up with TS.
Which kinda brings back my point of "what are these primaris good for?". The extra attacks in melee (and wounds) basically just mean the fight the same as a 10 man tactical squad in close combat (as in, a decent melee sergeant, like sorcerer, can outperform the entire squad), while at range they aren't even that good, particularly without all the weapon options and half the shots.
If you played Tau, you have no problems being crappy, you are already, physically the worst race out there
And the Tau already received that with the Farsight Enclaves, that are more liberal, more veteran, more Tau than the Tau, etc... so... Welcome to the club, Space Marine players
It could potentially be interesting, but they're not gonna make their core vanilla "aimed at kids" good guy faction into something like that.
What's happening so far is exactly the kind of situation that could allow them to construct an uncomplicated good guy faction ala Sigmar instead of what we have in the Imperium; and end up with Good (republican), Neutral Xenos, Neutral Humans, and Evil.
But you're right, it's probably wishful thinking. The parallel universe where this is happening would be a fun place to live I think ;\
I think a scenario like Malamis laid out would be really fun. Probably won't happen, but it would be fun.
I don't think it would necessarily have to be Guilliman being the "good" faction or him turning out to be an evil madman, but it would make me happy if it was some combination of the Imperium's insurmountable level of superstition and entrenched bureaucracy and Guilliman's own hubris.
Unrelated to above, I also hope they still come out with new plastic IG that have the "heroic" proportions scaled back just a little bit.
Knockoff Rubricae with more wounds, attacks, a rending bolter, and pistols to shoot into CC? Cool.
2 PP lower? Not cool.
They're basically even as is in and you can see that from the Rubric set at how an extra 5 guys cost 6 PP. The ability to potentially cause a mortal wound doesn't seem worth the extra points considering the extras the big dudes get.
So I was curious enough to actually compare the two, and the thousand sons are significantly better, largely due to the sorcerer.
The sorcerer and 2+ armor carry the TS through melee. Primaris vs TS, all the bolt pistols average about .28 wounds vs .78 for the single warpflame pistol. The melee attacks of primaris average around .61 wounds, the sorc alone averages around 1.11 wounds with the force sword. So the sorc alone is basically putting out twice as many wounds as the primaris in combat. Even with the extra wounds, the primaris marines come up short.
At range, primaris will inflict about .555 of a wound each turn on average, compared to Rubrics .888 of a wound per round ignoring the sorcerer, who averages out a mortal wound a turn on his own if my understanding of psychic tests is correct. That means .555 vs 1.888 total, 3 times as many wounds. This doesn't take into account the slight edge of 30 vs 24 range, as well as ignored the sorcerer's ranged weapon given how short range the warpflame pistol is.
Basically, the sorcerer is amazing and carries the unit, putting out roughly twice as many wounds as the entire primaris squad. Even with double the wounds primaris can't really keep up with TS.
Which kinda brings back my point of "what are these primaris good for?". The extra attacks in melee (and wounds) basically just mean the fight the same as a 10 man tactical squad in close combat (as in, a decent melee sergeant, like sorcerer, can outperform the entire squad), while at range they aren't even that good, particularly without all the weapon options and half the shots.
Well, their role almost certainly isn't dealing with rubrics. I mean, rubric marines are basically set up to be perfect counters for the primaris (because they have no multi-wound weapons besides that krak grenade). So yeah, in a straight fight, rubrics will wipe the floor with them (though the primaris will hold out longer than tacticals, but those same tacticals will be able to bring to bear multi-wound weapons).
As for their actual role? Hard to tell without seeing everything else. But they seem quite flexible in terms of dealing with other conventional infantry. A S4 AP -1 bolter is actually quite good against most conventional units, extra wounds gives them some staying power (should be hard to shift from cover), and they can remain pretty mobile. They're even half decent in assault (two attacks and a pistol). So my guess is their role is a tough, all-round objective grabber.
Rubrics are a horrible matchup for them to face because while they are pretty good against conventional infantry, their lack of multi-wound weapons basically hands the rubrics a 2+ save on a platter. It is no surprise the rubrics end up wiping the floor with them. But the primaris profile itself seems like a better distillation of a flexible tactical marine than the current weapon-caddies. If we see more things supporting the wall-o-bolters playstyle, then intercessors may well get pretty scary. As a basic trooper though, I quite like them and if the PL is anything to go by, they aren't costing an arm and a leg in comparison to tacticals (though the loss of special weapons definitely does take out some of their anti-big-stuff flexibility, my guess is we'll get that in a different primaris formation).
I think the observation that these squads are more like the legion formations is an astute one. My guess is each squad type will be a lot more mono-role than the more flexible codex astartes squads. All I know is that I would never in 10,000 years take a naked tactical squad, but a naked intercessor squad actually sounds like a decent pick. They can't deal with big beasties, but they handle most line infantry well, are decent in an assault (unlike tacticals) and can stand and hold ground super effectively due to the extra wound. Park 'em on an objective and 2W and a 2+ save are hard to beat.
But we'll need to see what the support for primaris marines looks like. There may be buffs and extras that alter things considerably from the baseline. But cheap, tough anti-infantry isn't a terrible thing.
Vaktathi wrote: the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.
Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.
aye, though primarily what I was driving at was that Space Marines were already supposed to be the best of the best superhuman supersoldiers and all that. Reimagining them is fine, but creating a new, better class of Space Marines is the problem. Particularly when they otherwise are pretty much identical in terms of look, role, equipment, etc. The GK's at least had a specific niche and unique visual.
Reimagining them with new models and stats, fine. Creating different classes of Space Marine is the problem.
That's the thing. The statline and models are everything I would have ever wanted GW to do with Space Marines. They have a statline and gear that actually reflects their fluff (at least, far better than the old statline, which was hilariously off), and the models themselves are gorgeous. These are the guys that should be slowly replacing the entire old space marine model lines. Instead, we get a really ham-fisted bit of fluff that forces them into more unneeded places than a Republican panel on women's rights, while separating them as a unique and better version of something that already should have been one of the toppest of dogs that already had several unique and better versions running around.
This is something that should have been entirely effortless on GW's part, and instead they get caught up in their own hype so much that they end up walking all over their own background material for no good reason.
So most of the CSM miniature line is ancient and looks terrible compared to most of the loyalist marine line and what do they do? They make more loyalist marine kits.
They look great but if Chaos marines don't get a resculpt soon I'm going to be pissed that they're spending resources on making kits nobody asked for.
So far, they're nice models. But otherwise NuMarines are incredibly boring. . .
Not interested.
More interested to see if Sternguard still get special ammunition that makes their guns better than the NuMarine guns. And if so, why would I use NuMarines other than for some sort of power-fantasy where I also can't get Terminators?
Blackhair Duckshape wrote: So most of the CSM miniature line is ancient and looks terrible compared to most of the loyalist marine line and what do they do? They make more loyalist marine kits.
They look great but if Chaos marines don't get a resculpt soon I'm going to be pissed that they're spending resources on making kits nobody asked for.
Wait, what? I actually really like the CSM aesthetic, and the Rubric Marines especially which are both new and strictly stat for stat better than the primaris marines... Also there's a new CSM kit coming out with this release, Deathguard or whatever...and it looks awesome...
'dem rail systems are goofy, with hilariously fist sized front sight posts, and the plasma gun's rails being stuck on top of a carry handle giving you the mother of all offsets.
That said...they do give a bit more aggressive vibe to the silhouette of the bolter, I can see what they're trying to do artistically, but they're still goofy.
The whole design do feels new even thou not too much changes. I dig it a lot.
The weapon feels more like weapons now, and not some small pug bolters like the rest of the smaller space marines’ use.
Vaktathi wrote: 'dem rail systems are goofy, with hilariously fist sized front sight posts, and the plasma gun's rails being stuck on top of a carry handle giving you the mother of all offsets.
That said...they do give a bit more aggressive vibe to the silhouette of the bolter, I can see what they're trying to do artistically, but they're still goofy.
About the rail on the carry handle; the M16A2 was designed to mount optics on its carry handle, and to this day the A2 offset is standard on M4 and AR15 platforms even though they typically come with a flat rail instead of the handle. Most optics designed for the platform have the rise built in, and if you try to mount an optic that doesn't have it directly to the rail you may find it noticeably less comfortable to shoot, as well as precluding the co-witnessing of the optic with your iron sights. So the rail on the carry handle makes at least some kind of sense, but there's still no explanation for having a rail that you can't even use because it sits directly in front of your receiver mounted scope
Vaktathi wrote: 'dem rail systems are goofy, with hilariously fist sized front sight posts, and the plasma gun's rails being stuck on top of a carry handle giving you the mother of all offsets.
That said...they do give a bit more aggressive vibe to the silhouette of the bolter, I can see what they're trying to do artistically, but they're still goofy.
It doesn't make sense anyway because the helm's auspex should supply all the zooming function to boot. Using sights shouldn't even be required.
Any word on pricing for these guys? If they're supposed to be between Marines and Termies on the tabletop I'm guessing they'll be around 50-60$ for 10, just a thought
Also, does anyone else thing we might see special weapons squads? Like in the Horus Heresy, seeing how Guilliman was in stasis since then?
Blackhair Duckshape wrote: So most of the CSM miniature line is ancient and looks terrible compared to most of the loyalist marine line and what do they do? They make more loyalist marine kits.
They look great but if Chaos marines don't get a resculpt soon I'm going to be pissed that they're spending resources on making kits nobody asked for.
Wait, what? I actually really like the CSM aesthetic, and the Rubric Marines especially which are both new and strictly stat for stat better than the primaris marines... Also there's a new CSM kit coming out with this release, Deathguard or whatever...and it looks awesome...
I'm totally confused by this post.
The Rubric and Plague marine kits are great... if you happen to play TS/DG.
For the rest of us CSM players, almost all of our models (vanilla marines, noise marines, bikes, obliterators, metal boxes, terminators, daemon princes, possessed, Abby, Huron, Lucius and berserkers to name a few) are really showing their age.
Noise marines still require an upgrade pack.
Details almost every infantry unit just melt away into nothing.
Our rhinos etc just look like loyalist vehicles with a few rows of pikes thrown on top.
Oblits are still failcast.
Anyone can see how awful Abaddon and co. look compared to more recently released characters.
There are so many armies that are in far more need of new models than the loyalist marines. Hell, in the time they spent producing these things, they could have made a plastic sister kit instead.
A new edition definitely needs a new kit for GW's best selling product line (Space Marines).
I do agree with the chaos marine line needing an upgrade though. With the possible exception of the khorne berzerker kit. That one stands the test of time.
I think the models are great, fluff, could use some work.
But what I am excited for though, is what these Marines will mean to new players. When trying to get people to play games that are bigger than skirmish level, a lot of guys I have introduced to it are put off by just how many models they need to build and paint to get started. These will be great for that new player who can now build and paint five instead of ten for a full squad. The squads themselves will be easy to learn as well. Now they won't need to remember the profile of a heavy weapon, a special weapon, and whatever the sergeant is carrying. And now they also don't have to worry about how to build their basic line squads while learning the game. How many times as a new player did you build your guys with the coolest options, only to find out they sucked or are a waste of points for that squad? Or build a guy with every special weapon option only to find out you can't use them all in a single squad?
I welcome the very focused load outs and purpose of the Primaris Marines. I also hope that they support the current scale of Marines and keep them viable.
For Chaos, would love if only the new Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and Khorne Berserkers came in the new scale to represent them having their god's favor or what not, and kept the basic Chaos Marine in the current scale, maybe with one new scale marine as the champion in the box and give champions slightly better stats. To me that would make sense, aren't Chaos Marines organized into warbands led by a guy who bullied them into following them, or are blessed by their gods? It always struck me a little odd that the champion of a chaos marine squad is ever so slightly better than the unloyal members of his squad who would most likely at any opportunity kill them to gain favor or power.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Any word on pricing for these guys? If they're supposed to be between Marines and Termies on the tabletop I'm guessing they'll be around 50-60$ for 10, just a thought
Also, does anyone else thing we might see special weapons squads? Like in the Horus Heresy, seeing how Guilliman was in stasis since then?
Sorry if this has already been brought up
Given that they're approximately the same size as Stormcast Eternals, I would hazard a guess that they'd be the same price as the Liberators.
Although given that they mentioned being fielded in units of 5, they might be priced like terminators at first (like the Liberators) then given a 10-man box set 1-2 years down the road once the hype dies down and realizes people actually need these in bulk for their Nu-Armies.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Any word on pricing for these guys? If they're supposed to be between Marines and Termies on the tabletop I'm guessing they'll be around 50-60$ for 10, just a thought
Also, does anyone else thing we might see special weapons squads? Like in the Horus Heresy, seeing how Guilliman was in stasis since then?
Sorry if this has already been brought up
Given that they're approximately the same size as Stormcast Eternals, I would hazard a guess that they'd be the same price as the Liberators.
Although given that they mentioned being fielded in units of 5, they might be priced like terminators at first (like the Liberators) then given a 10-man box set 1-2 years down the road once the hype dies down and realizes people actually need these in bulk for their Nu-Armies.
They're not quite that big I think. Keep in mind that SE are slightly bigger than terminators and it looks like these guys are still on 32s.
size wise they seem about the same size as the death watch, a little taller, bulkier armor, the heads and shoulders are notably said to be the same size.
Maybe a unit of these unlocks a choice between a special, assault or heavy unit version. If it doesn't, I understand what people are saying (gameplay not looks wise) as to why would you want to include them over the other versions.
However... I am getting a serious feeling that troops are going to become far more durable in this edition (basing this on the save mechanic and leaked weapons so far), therefore, even tougher troops could be even more effective, as it won't be all about how many models you can remove in 2 turns.
***Furthermore - has anyone yet spotted that a large blast for a Leman Russ went to d6 shots whilst a small blast for a Frag Grenade has also got d6 shots? That means small/large/apoc etc blasts are definitely not going to have a set conversion of shots.***
ohh definatly agree, durabilty is going up this edition which is something I think a "missing peice of the puzzle" as it where when judging things. GW I think specificly wants to avoid the style of gameplay you saw a lot of in 7th where you hand a handfull of power units doing all the lifting, while everything else was basicly just ablative hit points
Elbows wrote: Well, sadly...both the stats and the fluff are shockingly "meh".
What were you expecting? There is a limit to how hight they can crank them without invalidating Terminators. 2 Wounds and Ld7 is pretty good when you consider the new Battleshock rules. You have to deal a squad of these guys 4 wounds in a single turn before they even start to be at risk from Battleshock.
I admit that Tacticals++ is a bit boring but I am sure other flavours of Primaris will be coming.
People stop think about battleshock. These are marines, and they shall know no fear.
Seriusly, that rule is staying, we see it on the slate. Battleshock probably isn't a marine's first worry
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Any word on pricing for these guys? If they're supposed to be between Marines and Termies on the tabletop I'm guessing they'll be around 50-60$ for 10, just a thought
Also, does anyone else thing we might see special weapons squads? Like in the Horus Heresy, seeing how Guilliman was in stasis since then?
Sorry if this has already been brought up
Given that they're approximately the same size as Stormcast Eternals, I would hazard a guess that they'd be the same price as the Liberators.
Although given that they mentioned being fielded in units of 5, they might be priced like terminators at first (like the Liberators) then given a 10-man box set 1-2 years down the road once the hype dies down and realizes people actually need these in bulk for their Nu-Armies.
They're not quite that big I think. Keep in mind that SE are slightly bigger than terminators and it looks like these guys are still on 32s.
I heard somewhere that they're somewhere around custodes size, so maybe a little cheaper than them?
I want to know about the 2 guys with plasma guns though
Ratius wrote: Wonder if GKs will get versions of these guys?
Fluff-wise werent they always the pinnacle of SM evolution?
More or less. I think the 7e codex even hints that the GK geneseed was from the Emperor himself. Which means the Primaris GKs would be the ultra-ultra-ultra marines. (or U^3 marines)
Anpu42 wrote: I could see their role as Objective Holders.
Take a Squad with a Razorback, rush the Objective and take it. With the cover you now have a 2+ Save.
I don't know. Hit them with a "blast" multi-Damage Weapon, and it can be bye-bye squad. There is the advantage that the Tacticals will have over the Primaris, Multi-Damage Weapons are a waste against W1 models.
Anpu42 wrote: I could see their role as Objective Holders.
Take a Squad with a Razorback, rush the Objective and take it. With the cover you now have a 2+ Save.
I don't know. Hit them with a "blast" multi-Damage Weapon, and it can be bye-bye squad. There is the advantage that the Tacticals will have over the Primaris, Multi-Damage Weapons are a waste against W1 models.
Not the way some people talk about the 'New Blast Templates'.
True the multi-wound weapons will be an issue, but if supported right with better/more important targets...who knows.
BoomWolf wrote: People stop think about battleshock. These are marines, and they shall know no fear.
Seriusly, that rule is staying, we see it on the slate. Battleshock probably isn't a marine's first worry
if I was designing 8th edition, know no fear would be "roll 2d6 take the lowest, subtract 1" or something along those lines. incrediably potent, it'd be hard to crack marine squads, but it'd happen.
Ratius wrote: Wonder if GKs will get versions of these guys?
Fluff-wise werent they always the pinnacle of SM evolution?
More or less. I think the 7e codex even hints that the GK geneseed was from the Emperor himself. Which means the Primaris GKs would be the ultra-ultra-ultra marines. (or U^3 marines)
Bah - that's Matt Ward Grey Knights.
Better writers leave scraps to suggest they're loyalist Thousand Sons.
So, going with what appears to be current rumor these guys are the same size as the new Tsons, and a redditor just tossed a picture of the size comparison between an old metal tson and a new plastic here
Also I've forgotten where the post asking for a size comparison between the tsons plastics and older madines was, so hoping that guy sees this.
Seems to match the roughly head taller talk to me. Look forward to confirmation one way or another.
Cool models, but crap back, and insulting back story.
They could have easily put them in without weakening the value of normal space marines. They could have said it was a new enchantment program that further improved a space marines strength and speed and w.e, and replace the current method with this one. It could have been said that fresh nu-marines turn up larger than current marines, while current marines who undergo the extra treatment stay the same size they currently are, thus letting the player use his old marines as nu-marines.
The best we could hope for now is that nu-marines get retconned and phased out so that the nu-marines were reallly just old marines all along! GW has no problem with changing their fluff anyway so it'd be the best thing to do
123ply wrote: Cool models, but crap back, and insulting back story.
They could have easily put them in without weakening the value of normal space marines. They could have said it was a new enchantment program that further improved a space marines strength and speed and w.e, and replace the current method with this one. It could have been said that fresh nu-marines turn up larger than current marines, while current marines who undergo the extra treatment stay the same size they currently are, thus letting the player use his old marines as nu-marines.
The best we could hope for now is that nu-marines get retconned and phased out so that the nu-marines were reallly just old marines all along! GW has no problem with changing their fluff anyway so it'd be the best thing to do
Then you have no hope. The point of the Numarines is to sell minis, and want marine players buy entire new armies.
You can keep your old marines, but I imagine old marines will now feel the same love as non marines, if any.
On the positive codex creep will continue, and has already been said about the chaos faction. I look forward to see what (nu) Tau will have. Maybe they will go straight to (not) Zentraedi have the option to bring 20 foot tall troopers and knight sized battle pods.
Live FAQ from WarhammerTV on Facebook just said that normal marines can be enhanced to become Primaris Marines. And that they're not all grown in test tubes, some are made using the normal recruitment process.
The point is to be able to add them as you like or not add them as you like.
frozenwastes wrote: Live FAQ from WarhammerTV on Facebook just said that normal marines can be enhanced to become Primaris Marines. And that they're not all grown in test tubes, some are made using the normal recruitment process.
The point is to be able to add them as you like or not add them as you like.
New founding is called the ultima founding.
it's nice to see we're offically in a new founding. I expected itwould be mentioned but it's good to see it's offical
Wyzilla wrote: I'm happy at least they didn't go with that godawful MK VII helmet design that looks like a poor man's Darth Vader.
Because an army of poor man's Iron Man primaris is so much better.
Vader's helmet was one really cool thing from Star Wars, for sure worth ripping off, and works in multiples. The joke is that our good guys are an army of Vaders, not to mention it's kind of smart, how MK VII is a beakie with a nose cut off.
Primaris helmet is just boring in multiples, much less agressive and not a slightest bit more original.
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Really nice.
