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 Talamare wrote:
So their big selling point is 2 wounds...

Which would be insane in previous editions... but I mean with a ton of weapons dealing multiple wounds now...

You may not even notice that they even have 2 wounds.

Terms 2 wounds as well. (I can learn!)

More and more we can see this edition is going super super duper duper ultra killey edition.

 Traditio wrote:
They're a worse version of Sternguard. The only advantage they get is the additional wound.

Wow! Where did you get the new rules for Sternguard?

You know, I am completely convinced at this point, that GW could send you all 2k armies of your choice, and a gift receipt to return it and get a new one... and everyone would STILL complain. Not trying to be a fussy one, but damn ya'll. People have been crying for years for a story advance, now we have one. Everyone flips out.

GW has earned every speck of hate they get by being lazy and mathematically inept. However, I think the neo-marines are far from their biggest offense.

 Hollow wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
They're a worse version of Sternguard. The only advantage they get is the additional wound.

Wow! Where did you get the new rules for Sternguard?

Obviously, I meant "7th edition sternguard."

Clearly, I don't know what the new sternguard will look like (but how likely is it that they will change much?).

But even ignoring sternguard:

Intercessor marines are still terrible. We know for a fact that they are going to cost 16 ppm or more ("a fair few more points," etc).

And they can't bring heavy or special weapons.

Why would you take this unit?

I am not saying GW is without sin, I am just saying that I have NEVER seen such effort to appease the community as they have with 8E. Not to mention the sneak peaks, the amount of playtesting, the overall transperancy. It may just be the most vocal part of the community is the fussiest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
They're a worse version of Sternguard. The only advantage they get is the additional wound.

Wow! Where did you get the new rules for Sternguard?

Obviously, I meant "7th edition sternguard."

Clearly, I don't know what the new sternguard will look like (but how likely is it that they will change much?).

But even ignoring sternguard:

Intercessor marines are still terrible. We know for a fact that they are going to cost 16 ppm or more ("a fair few more points," etc).

And they can't bring heavy or special weapons.

Why would you take this unit?

Rule of Cool

Yes, I agree. But until I see the complete rules, along with rules for Daemons, Eldar, and Tau, I'm very skeptical.

Rysgame wrote:Rule of Cool

You understand that this isn't a legitimate in-game reason, yes?

Looking cool won't help you win games.

These models are going to be Ogryn levels of trash-tier.

 Traditio wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
They're a worse version of Sternguard. The only advantage they get is the additional wound.

Wow! Where did you get the new rules for Sternguard?

Obviously, I meant "7th edition sternguard."

Clearly, I don't know what the new sternguard will look like (but how likely is it that they will change much?).

But even ignoring sternguard:

Intercessor marines are still terrible. We know for a fact that they are going to cost 16 ppm or more ("a fair few more points," etc).

And they can't bring heavy or special weapons.

Why would you take this unit?

I have a feeling we are seeing an incomplete picture with the Primaris marines at the moment. We've seen the "plasma-rifle" Primaris marine, so we know they CAN take specials somehow.

The question is, are Intercessors the Primaris tactical marine, and we will get special weapon squads like in 30k organization? Or is the entry incomplete? If you can field whole armies of these guys they will NEED specials/heavys to keep up.

I'm not breaking out the torch and pitchfork until I have all the data, but at the moment Intercessors do look super underwhelming rules wise.

Carnage43 wrote:The question is, are Intercessors the Primaris tactical marine, and we will get special weapon squads like in 30k organization? Or is the entry incomplete? If you can field whole armies of these guys they will NEED specials/heavys to keep up.

It explicitly says in the article that you're still going to need tactical marines, since tactical marines will be able to take special and heavy weapons, whereas intercessors won't.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Yea, if they plan on upscaling csm, it would be either, "eh whatever swollen by chaos", fabius, or some equally hamfisted lore explanation involving thunderwarriors.

I doubt numarines are taint proof, some will defect. as for the previous comments of how do we have dreds of them already... well all it takes is one falling to get a single dred and maybe it is a numodel due to a larger sarcophagus "oh well while we need to redesign may as well improve"

Maybe the dread is an attempt to hide already present defects?
"Soooo, what are we gonna do about that first batch that are all crippled or worse?"
"Uhm... you mean those designed to fit into my new dreadnought design?" *fake smile*

haha i like that, tombs for the alpha and beta test numarines

I like that idea too.

The new Dreadnought has Primaris in its name, but maybe it's just a new model of dreadnought and any old Marine could be interred inside?

Maybe, just maybe, the new Marines aren't actually newly made, but just upgraded existing Marines? Like a chapter might send some of its Marines to Mars to get the new organs implanted that allow the Marine to use the new model of Power Armor? I guess they did mention these new Marines being used to reinforce chapters that had been decimated, so I guess they probably aren't upgrades.

Something that would make me pretty happy is if this played out kind of like a new Goge Vandire story. Something along the lines of Guilliman trying to take back parts of the galaxy that had been lost and fix what he sees and iniffiecient and backwards with the Imperium. Many Imperial officials, including Space Marine Chapter Masters, would resent his meddling and attempts to micro-manage. The numarines could be indoctrinated to be loyal to Guilliman personally, and have the function of not just bolstering the strength of chapters but also being Guilliman's eyes and ears (and maybe even enforcers) within the thousand or so chapters. This would put suspicious chapter masters in a pretty difficult position.

If the above were to happen, I would like it if all of Guilliman's micromanaging were to end badly as he discovered he was just not competent enough to try to run the entire Imperium. Other returning Primarchs could rise up to challenge him, and chapters could tear themselves apart as many of the old marines (and maybe some of the numarines) were loyal to their chapter masters and primarchs, while most of the numarines (and maybe some of the old marines) were loyal to Guilliman. Maybe instead of being killed like Vandire Guilliman could be driven from Terra to Ultramar, where he is better able to micro-manage a smaller number of planets, and the rest of the Imperium might be faced with even greater internal conflict as the forces that overthrew Guilliman start fighting amongst eachotehr.

Yeah, none of that will probably happen, but I think it would be fun.

Et tu, Vulkan?

On that note, I do have an unrelated comment:

We now know that frag grenades are d6 hits and krak grenades are d3 damage.

Missile launchers are going to be great, aren't they?

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:These Primaris Marine rules could be a great way to upscale our games and introduce 8th edition to them.

Why on earth would you want to?

They can't bring heavy or special weapons.

My kids are 10 & 12. Having them get used to 1 kind of weapons is hard enough. AP -1 on standard bolters is pretty good for small scale games of under 500pts
Having 2 wounds each can also help my youngest not get so upset if 1-2 marines die (whereas that would be 2-4 regular Marines).

And we know they have Plasmas at least, so not having heavy weapons won't be missed in our games.
I might get them a Dreadnought and a Rhino once all the rule come out so that it feels like a fuller army, but otherwise we use Eldar and Daemons in our games.

-

I know rule of cool isnt a game mechanic Traditio. Although I do field units in my army purely for rule of cool lol.

As for special/heavy weapons, they said you could field an entire army of numarines, which means we are seeing an incomplete look at them. Perhaps they will have support squads ala' 30k or maybe intercessor squads are going to be useful in a niche way that only other primaris marines can capitalize on?

Also, Dakka Dakka Flame, I really like that idea lol

 Rysgame wrote:
I know rule of cool isnt a game mechanic Traditio. Although I do field units in my army purely for rule of cool lol.

As for special/heavy weapons, they said you could field an entire army of numarines, which means we are seeing an incomplete look at them. Perhaps they will have support squads ala' 30k or maybe intercessor squads are going to be useful in a niche way that only other primaris marines can capitalize on?

The do specifically mention that he founds all new Chapters made up of the Astartes Primaris, so if its a regular codex unit, I'd expect a Primaris version of it at somepoint (and I am ok with this).

Rysgame wrote:they said you could field an entire army of numarines

Of course they did, and of course you can. It's a troop selection.

The fact that you can field an entire army of them doesn't make it a good idea.

Traditio wrote:

Rysgame wrote:they said you could field an entire army of numarines

Of course they did, and of course you can. It's a troop selection.

The fact that you can field an entire army of them doesn't make it a good idea.

See

VictorVonTzeentch wrote: They specifically mention that he founds all new Chapters made up of the Astartes Primaris, so if its a regular codex unit, I'd expect a Primaris version of it at somepoint (and I am ok with this).

 Traditio wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:The question is, are Intercessors the Primaris tactical marine, and we will get special weapon squads like in 30k organization? Or is the entry incomplete? If you can field whole armies of these guys they will NEED specials/heavys to keep up.

It explicitly says in the article that you're still going to need tactical marines, since tactical marines will be able to take special and heavy weapons, whereas intercessors won't.

no it says "tac squads can do this. intercessor squads cannot, so there are going to be times you might prefer a tac squad"





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Rysgame wrote:they said you could field an entire army of numarines

Of course they did, and of course you can. It's a troop selection.

The fact that you can field an entire army of them doesn't make it a good idea.

you seem to be focusing excessivly on one stat and ignoring the others. they've openly said "THIS AIN'T IT" I'd expect primarius Assault and devestator squads at the very LEAST. and very likely Primrius Terminators, with some sort of new mk of terminator armor. we've also not got the full picture. primiarus terminator armor'll likely be 2+ 4++ 3 wounds or something.

BrianDavion wrote:no it says "tac squads can do this. intercessor squads cannot, so there are going to be times you might prefer a tac squad"

I quote:

"That said, like the Legions of the Great Crusade, they don’t have options for heavy or assault weapons within the squad, so there are still situations where a Tactical Squad will be better suited – bringing lascannons, flamers or other specialist weapons with them for greater tactical flexibility."

BTW did anyone else notice these guys have a Invul save?

No they don't.

Where?

 Traditio wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:no it says "tac squads can do this. intercessor squads cannot, so there are going to be times you might prefer a tac squad"

I quote:

"That said, like the Legions of the Great Crusade, they don’t have options for heavy or assault weapons within the squad, so there are still situations where a Tactical Squad will be better suited – bringing lascannons, flamers or other specialist weapons with them for greater tactical flexibility."

BTW did anyone else notice these guys have a Invul save?

No they don't.

Where?

misread it. they where comparing em to terminators. they don't apparently. my bad.

and yeah, the quote is exactly what I said "tac squads are gonna be situationally more useful" but you gotta put that in context as well. they're talking the Intercessor squad, not "all Primaris space marines" I'd expect a devestator squad option and an assault marine squad option. possiably a special weapons squad as well ala the Heresy (my gut feeling is that these guys are gonna be more orginized akin to Heresy era Marines then 40k era marines)

 Traditio wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:no it says "tac squads can do this. intercessor squads cannot, so there are going to be times you might prefer a tac squad"

I quote:

"That said, like the Legions of the Great Crusade, they don’t have options for heavy or assault weapons within the squad, so there are still situations where a Tactical Squad will be better suited – bringing lascannons, flamers or other specialist weapons with them for greater tactical flexibility."

Which is not the same as saying that you need to take them. If someone wants to not take Tacs they can. You can get weapons in other places.

No they don't.

Where?

It doesn't the only mention is Terminators getting one.

I'm thoroughly confused as to what battlefield role these guys will have.

if there's an assault squad, then yes, I would go with that.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm thoroughly confused as to what battlefield role these guys will have.

if there's an assault squad, then yes, I would go with that.

Their Datasheet has the Troops symbol in the top corner, so I'm guessing they'll be Troops.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm thoroughly confused as to what battlefield role these guys will have.

if there's an assault squad, then yes, I would go with that.

Their Datasheet has the Troops symbol in the top corner, so I'm guessing they'll be Troops.

-

I think he means what role as troops do they have (and will there be an assault version), since they arent a flexible as Tac Squads. I think some sort of bulwark, maybe roll em around in Razorbacks for firesupport.

I would assume at somepoint they will have an assault squad.

 Rysgame wrote:
You know, I am completely convinced at this point, that GW could send you all 2k armies of your choice, and a gift receipt to return it and get a new one... and everyone would STILL complain. Not trying to be a fussy one, but damn ya'll. People have been crying for years for a story advance, now we have one. Everyone flips out.

Nobody said, "I hope the setting advances and I don't care how well it's written."

Depends on their points cost relative to naked tacticals, marginally better bolter notwithstanding, their twice as many wounds would make them perform better as MSU objective holders.

Ideally they should be to tacticals what tacticals are to scouts, ideally.

And of course if you run them exclusively they're your baseline mandatory troops, fielded however you feel necessary.

On second viewing of the trailer, we do see them depicted wielding power swords and special weapons, as well as an apothecary (who really stands out) and a banner bearer.

It's seems that structurally we may be seeing a lot of parallels between Space Marines and Space Marines Prime.

Most people are just miffed (like me) because this is like the whole rebasing thing as well. I'm willing to bet that if this was just a marine kit revamp instead of a new unit people would still be up in arms about it.

As for me, I'm just washing my hands of collecting astartes. Not in protest mind you, but because I already have something like 3 companies worth of marines now. This seems like it's going to be a whole new army on the horizon, and I do not have the capital to start another army, especially one that's basically made to invalidate other people's marine collections (not armies, collections. We all know the real reason they made this was because they know everyone and their grandpas have space marines out the wazoo). Plus, given by what we've seen, this might be finally the edition where my Tyranids can come back into the light.

That's actually probably the best way I have heard it put and pretty much describes why I'm not happy about it. It's not that it's invalidating my army, it's that it's invalidating my collection. It's like collecting all your space marines because they are the big hero / warriors of humanity only to be told lol yeah they are scouts now that are second class.

Yeah I'm not buying the who "It invalidates my collection." Argument, it doesn't you still have that army, its still in your collection.

This are still models you can make in your Chapter's colors and add to your collection. Not wanting something doesn't ruin a collection.

Well if GW stays the course as they did with AoS this is the end of their story and numarines from here on out.