Well the Dark lance was kinda predictable (was wondering what the "lance" rule would change to though)
Disintegrators being damage 2 is cool
Wyches being capable of locking enemy units in is awesome (because otherwise they were toast)
Incubi changes- eh, they were already good, it was the lack of grenades that was their issue so the "chargers strike first" from the combat rules was all they really needed
And Ravagers being able to go full speed and fire at full effect is great.
I bet the lance rule is gone now. Dark Lance is basically a Lascannon now but 1 point worst in strength and 1 point better in AP. Was hoping for something different...but meh
The no escape rule is interesting. I wonder if anybody else gets that. I hope dark eldar work out. I almost started a dark eldar army when they got their revamp, but I wasn't in a hurry and then they got their other codex and it turned out to me kinda meh.
Tautastic wrote: I bet the lance rule is gone now. Dark Lance is basically a Lascannon now but 1 point worst in strength and 1 point better in AP. Was hoping for something different...but meh
Oh, I'd totally spaced on that.
That extra minus will be helpful to keep vehicles from getting those lucky on their armour saves
Roknar wrote: The no escape rule is interesting. I wonder if anybody else gets that. I hope dark eldar work out. I almost started a dark eldar army when they got their revamp, but I wasn't in a hurry and then they got their other codex and it turned out to me kinda meh.
I wonder if the shardnet and impaler weapon option will improve the wyches chances of keeping their opponents locked in combat...
Another "GEE WHIZBANG ITS GONNA BE GREAT!" Marketing piece.
"yeah posion is totally fixed now because of the always wound on 6 rule! Its like totally fixed the army and stuff! All I have to say is wow you are gonna say wow!"
DE got a fair bit worse in CC, not better. Wych Dodge saves still only apply in the Fight sub-phase, and pistols can be fired in the Shooting phase while locked in combat.
Space Marines universally carry Bolt Pistols.
Being shot at by 3+ BS, 3+ to wound, 6+ save is a lot worse than being shot at by 3+ BS, 4+ to wound, 3+ save.
Wyches, despite all the huff about "top 3 most improved units!" still have no place except your display shelf.
I love the rules for Dark (and probably Bright) lances. An additional -1 to AP over the Lascannon does a pretty good job of representing the additional punch without needing yet another "keyword rule"
That D6 damage is going to go a long way toward making DE relevant again.
I don't think the Wychs' No Escape rule is as good as GW thinks though. There isn't a way to predict the probability of a 'roll-off". The DE player has just as much chance to roll low as the opponent has to roll high. It is hardly a rule that they can rely on.
And their Dodge save looks like they still don't get it for Overwatch, so Wyches are still garbage.
godardc wrote: Maybe they didn't tell us every thing they improved about them ?
Because yes, it seemed a bit light as an improvement when I read the Faction Focus
It feels that way because the changes ARE minimal. It's the whole "we got rid of usr's becaus they suck! Check out this cool UNITY ABILITY that lets you GET +1 str when you charge!"
They arent really changing anything. They are just renaming a bunch of stuff and "getting rid of rules"
mynamelegend wrote: DE got a fair bit worse in CC, not better. Wych Dodge saves still only apply in the Fight sub-phase, and pistols can be fired in the Shooting phase while locked in combat.
Space Marines universally carry Bolt Pistols.
Being shot at by 3+ BS, 3+ to wound, 6+ save is a lot worse than being shot at by 3+ BS, 4+ to wound, 3+ save.
Wyches, despite all the huff about "top 3 most improved units!" still have no place except your display shelf.
Oh, so you've seen their statline and the rest of their special rules and their weapon profiles?
godardc wrote: Maybe they didn't tell us every thing they improved about them ?
Because yes, it seemed a bit light as an improvement when I read the Faction Focus
It feels that way because the changes ARE minimal. Its the whole "we got rid of usr's becaus they suck! Check out this cool UNITY ABILITY that lets you GET +1 str when you charge!"
They arent really changing anything. They are just renaming a bunch of stuff and "getting rid of rules"
Though I wonder how well the Wyches weapons are going to be this time around.. Before it was mostly pointless.
The changes are excellent. Incubi sound good (though I'm maybe one of the only people that defended them as a unit, but oh well), but more importantly Wyches gained an actual niche outside of people wanting them to be a grenade delivery system again.
mynamelegend wrote: DE got a fair bit worse in CC, not better. Wych Dodge saves still only apply in the Fight sub-phase, and pistols can be fired in the Shooting phase while locked in combat.
Space Marines universally carry Bolt Pistols.
Being shot at by 3+ BS, 3+ to wound, 6+ save is a lot worse than being shot at by 3+ BS, 4+ to wound, 3+ save.
Wyches, despite all the huff about "top 3 most improved units!" still have no place except your display shelf.
Oh, so you've seen their statline and the rest of their special rules and their weapon profiles?
Galef wrote: I love the rules for Dark (and probably Bright) lances. An additional -1 to AP over the Lascannon does a pretty good job of representing the additional punch without needing yet another "keyword rule"
That D6 damage is going to go a long way toward making DE relevant again.
I don't think the Wychs' No Escape rule is as good as GW thinks though. There isn't a way to predict the probability of a 'roll-off". The DE player has just as much chance to roll low as the opponent has to roll high. It is hardly a rule that they can rely on.
And their Dodge save looks like they still don't get it for Overwatch, so Wyches are still garbage.
-
I'm pretty sure there is a way to predict the probability of a roll off. You use 2 die probability - each person has a 5/12 chance of winning the roll off, and there is a 1/6 chance of a tie (6/36, the odds of rolling doubles on 2 dice). Since the retreater needs to WIN to run, that gives you a 58% probability of keeping an opponent in close combat.
I'm obviously in the minority here, but I can foresee myself adding DE to my collection now. I think they got some solid buffs. Wyches may (at first glance) still be a bit horrible, but their shooting has improved, and their vehicles have almost certainly improved. They were always a solid shooting army, and this looks to have definitely confirmed that, especially for their vehicles - well, the Ravager anyway.
mynamelegend wrote: DE got a fair bit worse in CC, not better. Wych Dodge saves still only apply in the Fight sub-phase, and pistols can be fired in the Shooting phase while locked in combat.
Space Marines universally carry Bolt Pistols.
Being shot at by 3+ BS, 3+ to wound, 6+ save is a lot worse than being shot at by 3+ BS, 4+ to wound, 3+ save.
Wyches, despite all the huff about "top 3 most improved units!" still have no place except your display shelf.
Oh, so you've seen their statline and the rest of their special rules and their weapon profiles?
What are you waiting for, man, post them!
Do you play dark eldar?
I own the seventh edition codex. I'm assuming if this guy is saying wyches are still terrible, he's got ahold of the 8th edition rules for them.
So what are their move values? Do they have any new special rules? What else do their special weapons do besides -1AP? Did their points costs change? How about the Hekatrix, did she change? Bloodbrides? Any other stat changes?
I'm on the edge of my seat here, we've got an insider perspective!
I'm pretty sure there is a way to predict the probability of a roll off. You use 2 die probability - each person has a 2/6 chance of winning the roll off, and there is a 1/6 chance of a tie (6/36, the odds of rolling doubles on 2 dice). Since the retreater needs to WIN to run, that gives you a 66% probability of keeping an opponent in close combat.
There, I predicted the probability for you.
I meant it isn't as reliable to predict as a simple 4+ (50%) as you have to account for both dice separately and how they compare to each other. However, you do bring up an interesting point about the opponent having to beat the roll. That makes a significant different.
I'm still skeptical though. it will depend on points cost and other options. I was hoping all Wyches would get AP -1, but it appears you only get a limited amount of those weapons.
I'm pretty sure there is a way to predict the probability of a roll off. You use 2 die probability - each person has a 2/6 chance of winning the roll off, and there is a 1/6 chance of a tie (6/36, the odds of rolling doubles on 2 dice). Since the retreater needs to WIN to run, that gives you a 66% probability of keeping an opponent in close combat.
There, I predicted the probability for you.
I meant it isn't as reliable to predict as a simple 4+ (50%) as you have to account for both dice separately and how they compare to each other. However, you do bring up an interesting point about the opponent having to beat the roll. That makes a significant different.
I'm still skeptical though. it will depend on points cost and other options. I was hoping all Wyches would get AP -1, but it appears you only get a limited amount of those weapons.
-
It's...exactly the same as predicting the probability of one person rolling dice. Take a 2-dice probability table, and call the two dice "Die A" and "Die B". On every possibility of doubles, there's a tie, and on every possibility of Die A being higher than Die B, Die A wins, and vice versa. If there is not any way to modify the roll at all, then it is indeed a flat 58% chance of keeping any enemy in melee.
It's...exactly the same as predicting the probability of one person rolling dice. Take a 2-dice probability table, and call the two dice "Die A" and "Die B". On every possibility of doubles, there's a tie, and on every possibility of Die A being higher than Die B, Die A wins, and vice versa. If there is not any way to modify the roll at all, then it is indeed a flat 58% chance of keeping any enemy in melee.
Clearly, I am not explaining what I mean. If I need a 4+ to succeed, that's an easy 50% to calculate. However, If I need to get a 4+ while at the same time the opponent doesn't roll a 5+, I have to calcultate that additional 34% chance of them rolling 5+. It's not difficult, but it adds layers of variation that make it harder to base sound tactical decision on.
Going to be honest, I still don't see how Wyches are going to make it into combat with more than three models between the shooting phase and overwatch, especially as they've now become a priority target for anyone who doesn't want their battlesuits tied up in combat.
I'm pretty sure there is a way to predict the probability of a roll off. You use 2 die probability - each person has a 2/6 chance of winning the roll off, and there is a 1/6 chance of a tie (6/36, the odds of rolling doubles on 2 dice). Since the retreater needs to WIN to run, that gives you a 66% probability of keeping an opponent in close combat.
There, I predicted the probability for you.
I meant it isn't as reliable to predict as a simple 4+ (50%) as you have to account for both dice separately and how they compare to each other. However, you do bring up an interesting point about the opponent having to beat the roll. That makes a significant different.
I'm still skeptical though. it will depend on points cost and other options. I was hoping all Wyches would get AP -1, but it appears you only get a limited amount of those weapons.
-
Did they post the actual run, or just describe what it did? If the latter, the Wyches may get a bonus to the roll that wasn't described in the article.
The information is too little, it's a tiny scrap of one or two unit entries without knowing any of the rest of the unit rules, if the army has special rules, or how any of those interact with the core rules of 8th.
It's like seeing a post it notes through the window of a high rise building and assuming how well that business stock price is based on that.
I'm pretty sure there is a way to predict the probability of a roll off. You use 2 die probability - each person has a 2/6 chance of winning the roll off, and there is a 1/6 chance of a tie (6/36, the odds of rolling doubles on 2 dice). Since the retreater needs to WIN to run, that gives you a 66% probability of keeping an opponent in close combat.
There, I predicted the probability for you.
I meant it isn't as reliable to predict as a simple 4+ (50%) as you have to account for both dice separately and how they compare to each other. However, you do bring up an interesting point about the opponent having to beat the roll. That makes a significant different.
I'm still skeptical though. it will depend on points cost and other options. I was hoping all Wyches would get AP -1, but it appears you only get a limited amount of those weapons.
-
Did they post the actual run, or just describe what it did? If the latter, the Wyches may get a bonus to the roll that wasn't described in the article.
They posted the exact text of the rules. If an opponent wants to fall back, they must win a roll off vs the wych player first.
They may have some kind of gear or upgrade that helps the roll (Bloodbrides upgrade or Shardnet spring to mind) but we don't know that. We do know that the base rule in its entirety is "win a roll off if you want to leave."
When you roll 2 dice, there are 36 possible combinations of numbers.
6/36 are doubles - in a roll off, doubles are always ties.
15/36, Die A beats Die B
15/36, Die B beats Die A.
If the Wyches are Die A, then they get the result they want if they win, or if there's a tie. 15/36+6/36 = 21/36, or a 58.333% chance.
The odds of any roll-off of single D6s can be calculated by looking at a 2 die odds chart.
Sharnet would be great if it added +1 to the roll off. That's what it's designed to do anyway: trap the enemy.
I still think that they fixed the wrong things. Even if Raiders can move 12", allow passengers to disembark and Wyches move 8+ inches, they still can't get through enemy Overwatch, which is worse now that A) twin-linked is twice the shots and B) since everyone gets unlimited overwatch, you can't use expendable unit to absorb it.
Hmm, well they at least get there 6+ against most basic ranged weapons now. I guess that helps. Also might still get version of power from pain/combat drugs for some sort of survival boost.
Or maybe Wyches are just dirt cheap assault units meant to tie up high value targets in melee without letting them escape this edition. It makes sense given their rules.
Ok folks, with regards to the name, remember where we started here:
"Eladrith Ynneas"
So that's your previous lore-friendly alternatives.
Show of hands, who prefers "Eladrith Ynneas"? Who can HONESTLY say you wouldn't be rolling your eyes harder at that if they hadn't already come up with it?
the_scotsman wrote: Ok folks, with regards to the name, remember where we started here:
"Eladrith Ynneas"
So that's your previous lore-friendly alternatives.
Show of hands, who prefers "Eladrith Ynneas"? Who can HONESTLY say you wouldn't be rolling your eyes harder at that if they hadn't already come up with it?
Secondary show of hands, does anyone actually use the stupid copyright-names? Seriously. I have yet to hear anyone who wasn't a GW employee use "Astra Militarum", let alone all the contortions that they've replaced "elf" with.
the_scotsman wrote: Ok folks, with regards to the name, remember where we started here:
"Eladrith Ynneas"
So that's your previous lore-friendly alternatives.
Show of hands, who prefers "Eladrith Ynneas"? Who can HONESTLY say you wouldn't be rolling your eyes harder at that if they hadn't already come up with it?
Secondary show of hands, does anyone actually use the stupid copyright-names? Seriously. I have yet to hear anyone who wasn't a GW employee use "Astra Militarum", let alone all the contortions that they've replaced "elf" with.
Well...see, the thing about "Aelf" is....you can just say it exactly the same as "Elf." Remember how they did the same thing with "Orks" and "Daemons?"
the_scotsman wrote: Ok folks, with regards to the name, remember where we started here:
"Eladrith Ynneas"
So that's your previous lore-friendly alternatives.
Show of hands, who prefers "Eladrith Ynneas"? Who can HONESTLY say you wouldn't be rolling your eyes harder at that if they hadn't already come up with it?
Just as like all names, people is mad because they are new (And in many cases objetively bad, in others is just a question of tastes). In 20 years if this still exist, people would defend to no end terms like "Astra Militarum" or "Drukhari" as the BEST of the BEST, just like we do now with stupid names like Adeptus Astartes, a name with the only virtue of having been here for more than two decades.
Galef wrote: Sharnet would be great if it added +1 to the roll off. That's what it's designed to do anyway: trap the enemy.
I still think that they fixed the wrong things. Even if Raiders can move 12", allow passengers to disembark and Wyches move 8+ inches, they still can't get through enemy Overwatch, which is worse now that A) twin-linked is twice the shots and B) since everyone gets unlimited overwatch, you can't use expendable unit to absorb it.
-
Is Overwatch a distinct phase? Or is it part of the fight-subphase?
Sounds like wyches would get their dodge during overwatch... right? Or am I going herpy-derpy here?
Galef wrote: Sharnet would be great if it added +1 to the roll off. That's what it's designed to do anyway: trap the enemy.
I still think that they fixed the wrong things. Even if Raiders can move 12", allow passengers to disembark and Wyches move 8+ inches, they still can't get through enemy Overwatch, which is worse now that A) twin-linked is twice the shots and B) since everyone gets unlimited overwatch, you can't use expendable unit to absorb it.
-
Is Overwatch a distinct phase? Or is it part of the fight-subphase?
Sounds like wyches would get their dodge during overwatch... right? Or am I going herpy-derpy here?
Overwatch happens during the charge phase which is distinct from the fight phase.
Galef wrote: Sharnet would be great if it added +1 to the roll off. That's what it's designed to do anyway: trap the enemy.
I still think that they fixed the wrong things. Even if Raiders can move 12", allow passengers to disembark and Wyches move 8+ inches, they still can't get through enemy Overwatch, which is worse now that A) twin-linked is twice the shots and B) since everyone gets unlimited overwatch, you can't use expendable unit to absorb it.
-
Is Overwatch a distinct phase? Or is it part of the fight-subphase?
Sounds like wyches would get their dodge during overwatch... right? Or am I going herpy-derpy here?
Overwatch happens during the charge phase which is distinct from the fight phase.
@Whembly: what Docdoom said, although I wouldn't say it's you that is going herpy-derpy, but GW for this oversight.
The funny thing about the no escape rule is that it's being heralded as this amazing thing but it's still a straight up nerf compared to prior editions.
"There's like a 50% chance you can keep a unit locked on combat!" I mean, okay. But pre-8th there was a 100% chance you'd keep the unit locked in combat.
I'm curious to see what their weapon upgrades look like now. Basically, if they end up lacking the ability to wound most units on 3s and a way to improve their no escape rule they're going to likely be ass and you'd be better off shooting stuff to death with raiders/ravagers.
blaktoof wrote: None of the faction focuses are worth reading.
The information is too little, it's a tiny scrap of one or two unit entries without knowing any of the rest of the unit rules, if the army has special rules, or how any of those interact with the core rules of 8th.
It's like seeing a post it notes through the window of a high rise building and assuming how well that business stock price is based on that.
Unless you play Sisters of Battle. Then you're so desperate for any kind of sustanence that even tiny little scraps are a buffet.
Galef wrote: Sharnet would be great if it added +1 to the roll off. That's what it's designed to do anyway: trap the enemy.
I still think that they fixed the wrong things. Even if Raiders can move 12", allow passengers to disembark and Wyches move 8+ inches, they still can't get through enemy Overwatch, which is worse now that A) twin-linked is twice the shots and B) since everyone gets unlimited overwatch, you can't use expendable unit to absorb it.
-
Is Overwatch a distinct phase? Or is it part of the fight-subphase?
Sounds like wyches would get their dodge during overwatch... right? Or am I going herpy-derpy here?
Overwatch happens during the charge phase which is distinct from the fight phase.
@Whembly: what Docdoom said, although I wouldn't say it's you that is going herpy-derpy, but GW for this oversight.
Did they though? Do we know that it actually isn't the charge AND fight phase? Do we know that this wasn't balanced around being overwatched without it? Do we even know what a witches actual save is? Is there an upgrade that causes problems for opponents who try to overwatch? Or is making snap judgements about a model being useless silly when we haven't gotten to play the game yet?
I don't play DE, and likely never will, but I really like some of these changes.
- Numarines, meet disintegrator cannon. Looks super good at killing elite infantry with guaranteed 2 damage, but not overkill like AT weapons.
- Army stuck at a low tier now has a potential counter to ability shared by units of a consistently top tier army: Wyches can stop Tau from walking/flying away. Granted, it's a random roll, but ties favor DE.
I do hope to see more people playing DE (with success!) where I play, as variety is the spice of life, after all.
the_scotsman wrote: Ok folks, with regards to the name, remember where we started here:
"Eladrith Ynneas"
So that's your previous lore-friendly alternatives.
Show of hands, who prefers "Eladrith Ynneas"? Who can HONESTLY say you wouldn't be rolling your eyes harder at that if they hadn't already come up with it?
Secondary show of hands, does anyone actually use the stupid copyright-names? Seriously. I have yet to hear anyone who wasn't a GW employee use "Astra Militarum", let alone all the contortions that they've replaced "elf" with.
Well...see, the thing about "Aelf" is....you can just say it exactly the same as "Elf." Remember how they did the same thing with "Orks" and "Daemons?"
Except "ae" =/= "e", so they are pronounced differently. And "Orc" still has a hard "c" like "Ork", so there's no phoneme change. And daemons are an actual thing.
Not quite the same as a complete, almost 180 name change.
Been playing dark eldar for along time are now my primary army ever since the destruction of orks lol.
The thing i like about dark eldar is this they are a skill based army if you mess up on strategy you are dead you get punished hard for a mistake but if you play well you do well for the most part.
As for the new rules or at least what we know wyches seem well kind of the same with maybe a little extra hitting power in cc since some things have -1 rend but we have no idea about any real special rules for them. Here is my thoughts on it the champ of the unit will prob add a second d6 to the dice off with your opponent and you pick your highest or it could be amount of models kind of thing. Wyches will be fast at moving there for get closer in order to charge. They may have access to some sort of grenades in order to hamper over watch or the likes but this one seems doubtful.
The one thing no one has mentioned is what bonuses will there character give them Leith her self since all characters give some sort of bonus bubbles.
In the end it's the points they cost will be the thing that will make them useable or not imagine them being only 7 or 8 points with some decent cc stuff then they look more enticing.
Wonder what they will do to wracks to make them playable and not laugh out loud mince.
I am looking forward to this edition as my army's are dark eldar, nids and choas so really can't make them too much worse lol *touch wood *. Mostly i want to see some new models for my dark eldar more than any other side
Also, how come your wyches are dying to overwatch? When I see them on the tabletop they don't survive long enough to get into charge range in the first place.
Surprised there was no mention of assaulting with the transports themselves. From what we've seen of the rules, that should be possible and dark eldar vehicles might even have enough spiky bits to make it worthwhile for something other than managing overwatch.
The persistent theme seems to be that melee is always talked about in terms of how awesome your damage dealing capacity is when you get there, but no mention of how these units are actually going to survive to get in charge range, avoid being toasted by overwatch flamers and so on.
Surprised that dodge still seems to be an invulnerable save, not a to-hit modifier.
A lot of people seem to be reading winning a roll off as winning outright on one roll, but it seems to me that it's more likely to work the same way it does now, re-rolling until there is a winner. I think the reason it is a roll-off rather than a straight 4+ is for both players to be able to use command points to influence their dice.
BlaxicanX wrote:The funny thing about the no escape rule is that it's being heralded as this amazing thing but it's still a straight up nerf compared to prior editions.
"There's like a 50% chance you can keep a unit locked on combat!" I mean, okay. But pre-8th there was a 100% chance you'd keep the unit locked in combat.
I'm curious to see what their weapon upgrades look like now. Basically, if they end up lacking the ability to wound most units on 3s and a way to improve their no escape rule they're going to likely be ass and you'd be better off shooting stuff to death with raiders/ravagers.
My basic logic is that a cheap unit of wyches can do something rather unique in 8th edition (probably). Between the 4++ in the fight subphase and the no escape rule, this could make them one of a rare number of tarpits this edition.
But again, this is all down to price. Honestly people pointing out the splinter pistol could be kinda useful in CC thanks to the pistol rules already made me nervous. Its not like they'd be able to win more than one combat at most, with the new overwatch and their (assumed) fragility.
Bottom line: I don't see a situation where wyches can ever make a useful contribution killing enemy units, so tarpit is the only potential use I can imagine.
Perfect Organism wrote:A lot of people seem to be reading winning a roll off as winning outright on one roll, but it seems to me that it's more likely to work the same way it does now, re-rolling until there is a winner. I think the reason it is a roll-off rather than a straight 4+ is for both players to be able to use command points to influence their dice.
Why would they specify the unit falling back must win the roll off, if not to point out who wins a tie? If ties resulted in more rolling for all, the line wouldn't need to exist.
BlaxicanX wrote: The funny thing about the no escape rule is that it's being heralded as this amazing thing but it's still a straight up nerf compared to prior editions.
"There's like a 50% chance you can keep a unit locked on combat!" I mean, okay. But pre-8th there was a 100% chance you'd keep the unit locked in combat.
I'm curious to see what their weapon upgrades look like now. Basically, if they end up lacking the ability to wound most units on 3s and a way to improve their no escape rule they're going to likely be ass and you'd be better off shooting stuff to death with raiders/ravagers.
Well this is a new edition so who cares what they did prior editions (if they did anything at all besides being a Haywire delivery system)
I laughed at this article when I got to the incubi and wyches part especially. Wyches are one of the top three most improved units for 8th? And to prove that point you mention three things that wyches already had in 7th, if not better?
We don't need to see the rest of the rules for them if these are some of the best examples of how they are better or this is supposed to some how reassure us they aren't trash still.
Maybe there's still some rule unveiled that makes melee more viable. Cause I'm only seeing it get worse in relation to shooting. Especially Eldar losing it's advantage of high WS and initiative.
Tetsu0 wrote: I laughed at this article when I got to the incubi and wyches part especially. Wyches are one of the top three most improved units for 8th? And to prove that point you mention three things that wyches already had in 7th, if not better?
We don't need to see the rest of the rules for them if these are some of the best examples of how they are better or this is supposed to some how reassure us they aren't trash still.
Maybe there's still some rule unveiled that makes melee more viable. Cause I'm only seeing it get worse in relation to shooting. Especially Eldar losing it's advantage of high WS and initiative.
Eldar are ALSO however getting a high movement speed. that means a well played eldar army is proably initating melee more often then not
Wyches will be one of the only units about to pin things down, they will most assuredly be hitting on a 3+ instead of 4 against most units they will be fast on foot with options for very fast transportation, their invul gives them an edge against most serious melee threats.
All in all their purpose seems to be to tie up a unit and slowly wear it down. A perfect example of how gladiators who prolong combat for the thrill of the crowd should act in war.
As for their capability with pistols, all basic pistols in the game are now basically ap- so an assault marine is actually equalling out on damage from the loss of a single attack. Wyches however are starting a single str3 melee attack for a poison attack with their pistol. Their extra attack actually received a significant no us to damage output comparatively.
Since the weapon loadings don't matter in regard to powerlessly, there is a small chance the bloodbride statline may supercede the standard wych. Any current standard wyches are simply a less upgraded unit. (Unless of course they i.prlve all of the wych abilities on the bloodbrides to give them a legit reason for different power levels)
There are units in AOS that decide bonuses for units fleeing during the battle shock phase. I could see this as a serious possibility for dark eldar as well. Hunting fleeing does for slaves sounds right up their alley!
Galef wrote: They still can't get through enemy Overwatch, which is worse now that A) twin-linked is twice the shots and B) since everyone gets unlimited overwatch, you can't use expendable unit to absorb it.
-
a. Re-rollable 6+ produces 0.028 less hits than 2 x 6+. So, it's close to no difference. You also get your 6+ armor save vs shooting now.
b. That's why you might want a larger squad. So that you can spread out and help your mellee army to not be left in the open and not suffer from overwatch too much. Also, there might be multiple roll-offs vs multiple witch units. And don't forget that witches deal more damage with pistols rather than with s3 ccw now.
You guyz are kinda forgetting that bolter-drilling and heavy-boltering raiders to death is also not likely to be a thing.
The only thing i dislike is the 'new' elf faction names. Drakhr...drudhr...dradudhr...feth it. Dark elves.
Rippy wrote: Is it pronounced "Druk" like a duck, or "Drook" like a rook?
The real questions, coming to you live from Rippy.
I think it's pronounced Drew Carey.
About overwatch, there's a small possibility that transports will be the best thing to assault with first. They are unlikely to loose a wound against most infantry units and make it into combat, so that the next units can assault without getting overwatched.
Pistols in melee are actually not very useful for assaulting units. My guess is that you'll still be able to shoot during your shooting phase only, which means that you can only shoot after two whole fight phases (the one on the turn you charge, then the one on the opponent's turn). Not that many combats will drag on that long.
It's more useful for defending units, because they just need to survive the initial assault before they can shoot in their own turn. So durable units with pistols gain the most. Wyches or harlequins, not so much.
Aren't witches supposed to 'prolong' combats? If hordes are going to be a thing and rows upon rows of retreating and shooting enemies as a result, the ability to lock down a squad or two is way more important than the ability to kill 'em all.
koooaei wrote: Aren't witches supposed to 'prolong' combats? If hordes are going to be a thing and rows upon rows of retreating and shooting enemies as a result, the ability to lock down a squad or two is way more important than the ability to kill 'em all.
That's a good point, they could be useful for tar pitting if cheap enough.
I don't really understand the appeal of having wyches be a "tarpit" unit. I can understand crowd pleasing, but I'd really greatly prefer them to function more like a melee version of the standard tactical troop squad: As a generalist damage-dealer, with weapon options that allow them to specialize against different target types.
I'd much rather be paying 10-15pts for a wych weapon rather than 5, and have them be much more impactful and specialized. Make the Hydra Gauntlets a higher strength, multi-damage weapon for hunting heavy targets, give Razorflails extra attacks to scythe through numerous light enemies, and give Shardnets disarming abilities to deal with dangerous specialist infantry.
IMO, if you want tanky tarpits, that should be the role of the Wracks and the Grotesques, and Wyches should be an alternate melee version of Kabalite Warriors.
Not just tarpits - retreat preventers. Different role. Remember how you want to stick in cc for 2 phases to not get shot to bits? Well, with the retreat rules of 8 it won't be possible unless you're fielding a squad of witches or two. So, i think it's possible that they will be used as a supporting unit for more killy mellee units. Isn't it great that they HAVE a place now?
koooaei wrote: Not just tarpits - retreat preventers. Different role. Remember how you want to stick in cc for 2 phases to not get shot to bits? Well, with the retreat rules of 8 it won't be possible unless you're fielding a squad of witches or two. So, i think it's possible that they will be used as a supporting unit for more killy mellee units. Isn't it great that they HAVE a place now?
Maybe. But I'd rather not have the basic TROOP assault squad be a support/gimmick unit. That sounds like more of a job for a supporting elite unit, like maybe one of the animals in the beast pack, hellions, or Mandrakes.
Again, we can make no judgement as of yet. All we know is one rule isn't changing, one rule is being added, and one stat value from 2 weapons. It's laughably dumb to be making judgements on wyches' overall quality based on that.
koooaei wrote: Aren't witches supposed to 'prolong' combats? If hordes are going to be a thing and rows upon rows of retreating and shooting enemies as a result, the ability to lock down a squad or two is way more important than the ability to kill 'em all.
Yeah. Wouldn't it have been nice if they could reliably do that, locking down units, instead of being at the mercy of a "DUDE FORGE THE NARRATIVE LOL" dice roll?
"B-but they might have wargear that gives them bonuses on the r-"
Why is there a roll at all? I want someone to justify No Escape being a roll-off instead of a flat "units in combat with wyches may not disengage unless the wych unit is destroyed."
I see very little here to get excited about. Dark Lances and Disintegrators seem less crap now, so there's that i suppose.
However, when I look at Incubi and Wytches . . . ugh. Incubi melee weapons actually appear marginally worse than they were before (unless I'm mistaken, they no longer fully ignore 2+ saves). And it's not like their old weapons were particularly good to begin with (for S3 glass-cannons, S+1 AP2 Two-handed just wasn't enough, especially with all the escalation). What's more, Incubi had many other problems - particularly their high cost, inability to damage vehicles and fragile frames. The moment they were out of combat, you might as well just remove them from the table and save some time.
So, not only do GW think that a weapon *downgrade* is a point in their favour, but indeed that this is apparently the best thing they could find to put on the Incubi marketing blurb.
And then we get to wyches. Often considered one of the absolute worst units in the game in 6th-7th, second only to their "elite" cousins. They were overpriced, ludicrously fragile even with their 4++, and hit like wet paper bags. So, what was GW's solution? Their weapons now have AP-1. Christmas has come early. Oh, and they might be able to lock units in combat. Because when I buy an overpriced tarpit, I really want one which has a ~50% chance of completely failing at its only job.
The point is, these units had a ton of issues in 7th and 8th has brought yet more to worry about (like the removal of initiative - which was the only thing keeping Incubi from being utterly worthless in every way). However. not only have we seen nothing to replace the loss of initiative on these DE units, we've seen nothing to indicate that any of the problems they had in 7th have been fixed.
Now, granted, we still don't know their full stats and costs. However, let's be honest here - GW does not have a good track record as far as balance is concerned. Nor do they have a history of fixing the problems of previous editions - usually they just add new, bigger ones that overshadow the old ones. Hence, I'm not going to be blindly optimistic that the stuff we haven't seen will fix DE's many issues and turn them into a great faction.
BrianDavion wrote: Eldar are ALSO however getting a high movement speed. that means a well played eldar army is proably initating melee more often then not
As I've said before, "high movement speed" could be 7" for all we know. When you consider random charge distances and other factors, it's a pretty minor bonus.
More importantly though, you're forgetting that other races have access to bikes, jump packs and the like. Who cares if an Archon can move 7", when a marine captain with a thunderhammer on a bike can move 12"?
Making initiative effectively equate to movement speed is going to hurt DE far more than it helps them.
AnomanderRake wrote: Secondary show of hands, does anyone actually use the stupid copyright-names? Seriously. I have yet to hear anyone who wasn't a GW employee use "Astra Militarum", let alone all the contortions that they've replaced "elf" with.
Are you kidding? I don't think I can even pronounce the new name for Dark Eldar.
koooaei wrote: You guyz are kinda forgetting that bolter-drilling and heavy-boltering raiders to death is also not likely to be a thing.
72 bolter shots to take down a annihilation barge. Now, I'm gonna guess a raider will be around that total, based on the idea that the barge was tougher last edition but I'm assuming some of that is in special rules that weren't posted.
So roughly as many shots as it'd take to kill 26~ wyches, or 16 tau fire warriors.
the_scotsman wrote: I don't really understand the appeal of having wyches be a "tarpit" unit. I can understand crowd pleasing, but I'd really greatly prefer them to function more like a melee version of the standard tactical troop squad: As a generalist damage-dealer, with weapon options that allow them to specialize against different target types.
I'd much rather be paying 10-15pts for a wych weapon rather than 5, and have them be much more impactful and specialized. Make the Hydra Gauntlets a higher strength, multi-damage weapon for hunting heavy targets, give Razorflails extra attacks to scythe through numerous light enemies, and give Shardnets disarming abilities to deal with dangerous specialist infantry.
IMO, if you want tanky tarpits, that should be the role of the Wracks and the Grotesques, and Wyches should be an alternate melee version of Kabalite Warriors.
The problem is, they likely won't be that. A dangerous but fragile melee unit is going to struggle in the first place, given how shooty this edition looks to be (at least as bad as last edition). Consider what happens when you do kill a unit, a combat squad of nearby tacticals without special weapons could move to rapid fire range and cut down 3-4 of your wyches. A full unit would be 7-8. That's why expensive and killy wyches just don't work. You'd lose half of your squad to a single salvo of bolter fire, factoring in a round of overwatch or two and you'd basically be done. Sure, transports, cover, or deepstriking can get you into your first combat, but you'll likely have to weather at least one round of shooting to get your second. Wyches are so fragile outside of combat that they can't really be expected to do much.
koooaei wrote: You guyz are kinda forgetting that bolter-drilling and heavy-boltering raiders to death is also not likely to be a thing.
72 bolter shots to take down a annihilation barge. Now, I'm gonna guess a raider will be around that total, based on the idea that the barge was tougher last edition but I'm assuming some of that is in special rules that weren't posted.
So roughly as many shots as it'd take to kill 26~ wyches, or 16 tau fire warriors.
I'm glad they are making vehicles this way now. No more lucky bolter glances to kill a vehicle in one round of shooting. It makes heavy weapon teams very viable
Another small bonus for wyches is they can shoot there pistols in combat even when on an open top transport if the transport is charged.
I know all pistols can do it but still a little slice thing for wyches to use. Yes they will prob still be overpriced garbage but i am hopeful failing in that give hellions a boost an i am happy.
koooaei wrote: Aren't witches supposed to 'prolong' combats? If hordes are going to be a thing and rows upon rows of retreating and shooting enemies as a result, the ability to lock down a squad or two is way more important than the ability to kill 'em all.
Yeah. Wouldn't it have been nice if they could reliably do that, locking down units, instead of being at the mercy of a "DUDE FORGE THE NARRATIVE LOL" dice roll?
"B-but they might have wargear that gives them bonuses on the r-"
Why is there a roll at all? I want someone to justify No Escape being a roll-off instead of a flat "units in combat with wyches may not disengage unless the wych unit is destroyed."
I mean, the obvious reason is that GW didn't want it to be an absolute certainty that you can't retreat.
Well at least on the plus side dark eldar aren't being written off. I just hope we stay the fastest army and the most hit and run of all armies.
Roknar wrote: The no escape rule is interesting. I wonder if anybody else gets that. I hope dark eldar work out. I almost started a dark eldar army when they got their revamp, but I wasn't in a hurry and then they got their other codex and it turned out to me kinda meh.
Reaver jetbikes are currently decent but they're mostly for melee with some small AT and t4 multi-wound insta-death potential but mostly for the cluster caltrops. Scourge are ok. Venoms are either good to meh depending on what you face (all vehicles, flyers and great armor or cover saves make them cry but vs necrons and mechanicus they're good), ravagers just suck, covens are supposed to be decent, incubi are either above average or crap (basically the reverse of poisoned weapons in that tough units like necrons and mechanicus are mostly invulnerable to em). Ravagers suck and cost too much (though the armor is durable for dark eldar anyway) but they can pull funny shenanigans in area terrain and woods getting cover without needing to jink. All wych units sucked. Mandrakes seemed fun but only at 3 pts per model less and got to be troops (provided you run bound but that doesn't really benefit dark eldar) but then they'd be viable. I've never run hq retinue or the beast packs. Never saw a point to taking medusae because when you moved more than 6" you couldn't fire templates so that made you either do webway portal drop or baiting the enemy to assault the unit which i never found good. Usually if you want to deal with enemies in cover you take the good melee units (grotesques, incubi, talos and reavers) and leave all the other anti-cover options at home. That was legit the way i did it and it works best for DE.
I have this 4 archon build with shadowfields, blast pistols and huskblades that does really well. Shadow fields are one of the only things that got boosted in the current codex. I've made at least a couple opponents (including tau) curse at how durable those shadow fields are and when you fail one it lasts the rest of the phase so you just do the switcharoo and throw another shadow field archon in the place of the previous to take the next shooting phase then rinse and repeat. Seriously it's hilarious vs guard and tau. It costs like 500 points or more though. Sadly when 8th hits it'll be completely useless.
Wondering if i should play 8th and if i do should i continue dark eldar or go for genestealer cults.
There's too much we haven't seen to say whether Wyches are any good or not. No Escape is nice and it's disappointing to see Dodge is unchanged but if their now WS3+ and A2 that alone will make for a notable buff. Will still need a points drop. We still need to see what their weapons do as well.
Incubi have had a significant buff through changes to the core rules, their only real weakness was a lack of Assault Grenades but thats no longer a problem as chargers always strike first, and frankly with assault vehicles and Fleet I never had a problem of getting off the charge first in 7th, making us faster means it's going to be even more of a shoe in in 8th.
Ravagers are going to be amazing, Dark Lances have been buffed thanks to the core rules changes aimed at giving high strength single shot weapons their anti tank/monster role back again and the fact that we seem to be one of the few vehicles in the game to ignore the -1 BS after moving with a Heavy weapon is gold. The Dissi looks like it's still going to be excellent at removing elite infantry but with D2 will probably be pretty good at dealing with light vehicles as well,
It sounds like all of our vehicles gained Flickerfields as standard rather than only the Venom having it, I hope we still have Nightshields as it will be interesting to see how they work in 8th. Speaking of our vehicles, they could be pretty nasty in combat. All three could take Shock Prows and Chain Snares, I can see these doing a lot of damage on the charge, soaking up overwatch thats unlikely to do much damage to them before our real close combat units get into battle as well.
It was also mentioned yesterday that Power From Pain gives us effectively a 6+ FnP, it remaines to be seen if it does anything else.
One thing that is nice for Wyches is that we now know that the 'defender'/owning player allocates wounds. So even though Wyches will undoubtedly take casualties from Overwatch, they don't have to be from the front of the unit. I can't tell you how many times I have failed charges with melee unit because of Overwatch.
The downside, however is that those casualties will cause a Morale test, regardless of "winning" combat or not (unless I am forgetting something about being in melee)
Galef wrote: One thing that is nice for Wyches is that we now know that the 'defender'/owning player allocates wounds. So even though Wyches will undoubtedly take casualties from Overwatch, they don't have to be from the front of the unit.
I can't tell you how many times I have failed charges with melee unit because of Overwatch.
The downside, however is that those casualties will cause a Morale test, regardless of "winning" combat or not (unless I am forgetting something about being in melee)
-
Yes, I think every unit that suffered losses during the turn must take a bravery test at the end. I think the concept of winning combat is gone and won't affect the bravery test.
What could be cool though, is if Power from pain also gave +1 bravery per model killed in the turn: for each model your unit kills, you "save" one of your own from the bravery phase. The more a unit kills, the less likely it is to fall back. I think that would make sense for DE, and wouldn't be too overpowered (as most bravery test will be to shooting, during the enemy turn, when your guys don't kill anything anyway).
Anyway, I think the saddest part is the special/gladatorial weapons not getting a significant buff. Most troop units can buy special/heavy weapons that are pretty strong, and really give a special role to the unit. Wyhch could have gotten a lot a flavor if their weapon move to something better than just +1S or the like. Being able to kit a unit for MC hunting, one for horde hunting etc. would be interesting imo. Especially with the way we remove casualties now: paying a special model 3 times as much as a basic one is less of a problem when you can keep it alive until the end.
Personally, I hope that Trueborn and Bloodbrides no longer exist and that Warriors and Wyches will just be able to take more weapon options. Like Warriors being able to take 2 weapons per 5 (1 heavy and 1 special) and Wyches taking 1 Wych weapon per 3. Maybe also allow their unit "champion" take a weapon choice in addition to this limit.
I wonder if my void raven bombers might be actually useful now with the weapon changes. I think they overpriced them originally, being one of the first zooming fliers and not realizing you often only get between 1-3 rounds of shooting with one in a game. That fact should be accounted in their points and they should cost less.
Here's hoping that they change the stupid rule for flyers that they must return back on their own table edge after flying off the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: Personally, I hope that Trueborn and Bloodbrides no longer exist and that Warriors and Wyches will just be able to take more weapon options.
Like Warriors being able to take 2 weapons per 5 (1 heavy and 1 special) and Wyches taking 1 Wych weapon per 3.
Maybe also allow their unit "champion" take a weapon choice in addition to this limit.
That's the worst idea I've ever heard unless you hate DE and want to nerf trueborn. I can agree with the bloodbride proposal because they sucked. But trueborn are one of our best units, they have more special and heavy weapons options than most with least amount of requirements, and now with split fire they are even more amazing. I hope to God that gw doesn't listen to you lol.
koooaei wrote: Aren't witches supposed to 'prolong' combats? If hordes are going to be a thing and rows upon rows of retreating and shooting enemies as a result, the ability to lock down a squad or two is way more important than the ability to kill 'em all.
Yeah. Wouldn't it have been nice if they could reliably do that, locking down units, instead of being at the mercy of a "DUDE FORGE THE NARRATIVE LOL" dice roll?
"B-but they might have wargear that gives them bonuses on the r-"
Why is there a roll at all? I want someone to justify No Escape being a roll-off instead of a flat "units in combat with wyches may not disengage unless the wych unit is destroyed."
I mean, the obvious reason is that GW didn't want it to be an absolute certainty that you can't retreat.
I didn't ask for a reason, incompetence could be a reason. I asked for a justification.
Well then: it's justified by the fact they didn't want it to be certain then. The reason justifies itself or whatever.
I seriously don't know what you really want. It's a roll off because they felt it being certain was too powerful on a troop unit, or because they didn't want it to be a certainty. Could it have been a flat roll? Yeah, but the chances are different and maybe they want the opponent to feel like they're doing something in response or something?
It seems like a weird thing to single out and want justification for.
"I don't know what the difference is between a reason and a justification."
Wouldn't it have been easier to save us both time and just say that? As for why I'm asking for a justification, do you understand that this is a discussion board and that the purpose of this forum is in fact to host discussion on Warhammer 40k and Warhammer 40k news?
Ah yes, because I definitely said that A reason can, indeed, justify itself. Amazing concept, I know.
And yes I understand this is a discussion board, but at the same time it really just seems you're trying to angle that it is 100% a bad thing that it isn't a certainty, especially with your whole "LOL FORGE THE NARRATIVE random dice rolls LOL" speel before.
If you're going to be like that, the reality is that no one here can give you GWs justification for it.
Your wyches may not be taking overwatch anyways. Your raider/ venom can now rush the target to soak and the wyches can then follow. You only get overwatch if you aren't engaged.
Incubi also got a buff due to the new to wound chart. Str5 is no longer wounding on 2+, they will wound every unit t5-7 on a 5+, and it takes dedicated antitank rounds now to eliminate their save (ap-3 or better) then there is the fact that they've said that power from pain exists and will allow for damage mitigation. There is no more instant death after all...
The wyches not ensuring the opponent t doesn't leave combat is to keep you army from thing down the entire enemy army for the whole game. A giant horde of wyches being backed up with psychic powers to mitigate damage and being immune to morale tests would completely invalidate most armies in the game.
How can anyone even claim to assess the effectiveness of any unit in the 8th edition, when all the determining factors are still unknown?
We can only go by what we do know:
- they get a 4+ invul. save in the fight phase
- Hydra Gauntlets and Razor Flails are -1 AP - Enemy Infantry units within 1" have to win a roll-off before being able to retreat
Good luck extrapolating viability from that when you don't even know the full game rules, not to mention other factions and point costs.
BertBert wrote: How can anyone even claim to assess the effectiveness of any unit in the 8th edition, when all the determining factors are still unknown?
We can only go by what we do know:
- they get a 4+ invul. save in the fight phase
- Hydra Gauntlets and Razor Flails are -1 AP - Enemy Infantry units within 1" have to win a roll-off before being able to retreat
Good luck extrapolating viability from that when you don't even know the full game rules, not to mention other factions and point costs.
Well yeah, but if we didnt extrapolate what we don't know, what would we bitch about? Its like the nfl offseason here
I have this 4 archon build with shadowfields, blast pistols and huskblades that does really well. Shadow fields are one of the only things that got boosted in the current codex. I've made at least a couple opponents (including tau) curse at how durable those shadow fields are and when you fail one it lasts the rest of the phase so you just do the switcharoo and throw another shadow field archon in the place of the previous to take the next shooting phase then rinse and repeat. Seriously it's hilarious vs guard and tau. It costs like 500 points or more though. Sadly when 8th hits it'll be completely useless.
In my experience the first failed shadowfield save kills the Archon because of the plethora of Str6+ and no eternal warrior access at all
Even with tau or guard i don't see str 6 in high enough numbers for it to matter much. Most guard i face have str 5 and 3 or ordnance weapons (only hit once) and lots of single shot as well as normal shot heavy weapons that don't shoot much. Guy takes like thudd guns or wyverns as well which don't instant death. Honestly the game is more about spamming str 5 en masse than str 6. Even going against tau str 5 was like the magic number and i roll my wounds one at a time in case it matters.
Of course with blasts doing d6 hits in the future instead it may do more to small squads which is interesting.
I feel like I went to a used car lot, I'm just not inspired by the deal I want this to be. Half of it is the same, the other half is ether worse or slightly better. I'll wait for more but so far not so happy.
BertBert wrote: How can anyone even claim to assess the effectiveness of any unit in the 8th edition, when all the determining factors are still unknown?
We can only go by what we do know:
- they get a 4+ invul. save in the fight phase
- Hydra Gauntlets and Razor Flails are -1 AP - Enemy Infantry units within 1" have to win a roll-off before being able to retreat
Good luck extrapolating viability from that when you don't even know the full game rules, not to mention other factions and point costs.
...but that's not all we know.
The following says a great deal:
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Drukhari wrote:Their hydra gauntlets and razorflails are fantastic, giving their attacks -1 AP. But their real talent is in the [incredibly powerful] No Escape special rule...
The special weapons give -1AP, and that is "fantastic"? The article-writer is trying to tell us that Wyches don't suck any more, but the evidence we have seen suggests the opposite. If there really are special rules that make them good not suck quite so much, why was the No Escape rule presented as support and described as "incredibly powerful"?
The obvious conclusion is that soaking the years of dust off my Wyches was premature.
Having said that, if i can run my Wych Cult with at least some chance of avoiding being tabled, then 8th will be a winner from my perspective.
Galef wrote: Personally, I hope that Trueborn and Bloodbrides no longer exist and that Warriors and Wyches will just be able to take more weapon options.
Like Warriors being able to take 2 weapons per 5 (1 heavy and 1 special) and Wyches taking 1 Wych weapon per 3.
Maybe also allow their unit "champion" take a weapon choice in addition to this limit.
Only if Assault, Vanguard, Sternguard and Devastator Marines are also removed, after all they're just marines with different weapons.
This is one of those things that absolutely should never be followed.
The special weapons give -1AP, and that is "fantastic"? The article-writer is trying to tell us that Wyches don't suck any more, but the evidence we have seen suggests the opposite.
The article-writer has played 8-th.
Man, the bitching here is almost as strong as it's going to be in the csm thread.
ps. Oh, i finally remember where i heard bout this drukhari. Some kind of trolls from warcraft! Makes sense now.
on their armour saves
