What do you guys think? Looks to be some quite heavy nerfs, in many cases needed, in others not... tons of points raises. I don't know why Howling Banshees lost the "no overwatch" rule on their masks for example, it was fluffy and not too powerful. Twin-linked weapons doing double shots means a boost to vehicles. I'm disappointed in the Falcon though, the Pulse Laser is WORSE than a twin-linked Bright Lance and it can't transport as many models as a Wave Serpent. Meh. The Avatar is an absolute beast in melee! Much more survivable as well since he gets both a normal/invulnerable save and a special 5+ save after that. Rangers might see play now to snipe out characters. Shining Spears got an extra attack both otherwise the same... can't see them being much better in practice since you get no extra attack on the charge and that's the only time they're any good. Wraiths lost a point of toughness :(
2 wound Windriders are nice. Shame they became Fast attack choices. I guess I'll be using that detachment that allows FA are 'core'
Kinda pissed that the WK is OVER 500pts! It needed readjustment, but I was hoping for it to get toned down, not priced up. I have 3 that I'll never be able to take without it being my whole army.
A few big things: Windriders are FA with a 4+ save and no equivalent to Jink. Shining Spears have "Jink" - not by name, but a 4++ against shooting, plus 3+ armor save. JSJ is gone. Looks like Jetbikes can Fall Back from combat and then shoot, though. I think Spears actually look pretty good now, especially with their laser lances getting AP -4.
Scatter lasers are still beefy, but not as beefy as before. Scatpacks will now be hitting on 4+ (unless they sit still) and wounding on a 3+ against T4, which means they're now a lot worse against MEQs. SM and kin, CSM and Necrons can cheer now. Orks, too, since they get their T-shirt saves against them again. (Doesn't matter much, but something is better than nothing. And, err, anti-infantry gun kills light infantry? Say it ain't so!) No more JSJ afterward cuts down the frustration factor a lot.
Pulse laser is worse than a twin brightlance? Err, not quite - the fixed 3 damage is more predictable. Its maximum isn't as good, but it'll never hose you with 1-2 damage.
Otherwise, most of it looks good to me. We may actually see something other than "spam Windriders, Warp Spiders and Wraithknights". Yay!
Windriders were always suppose to be FA choices. The only reason they were troops was because GW didn't want the 4th ed codex to invalidate Saim Hann Craftworld armies (which swapped the compulsories from Troops to FAs) and subsequent codex writers just never got the memo (it's why CSM Cult Troopers were troops in 4th edition and only 4th edition).
As for Banshees, I think this is an overall buff to them. They lost the deny overwatch ability but retained their "always strike first" thing (before it was just raising their initiative to 10). The 8" movement will mean that transports won't be that much of a priority for them, but it also helps that they can now assault out of a transport, making Banshees in wave serpents deadly. That +3 to charge distance is also awesome, as it means an average threat radius of 11"! And also the buff to power swords means that they're no longer restricted to just blending MEQs and hordes, but can actually threaten heavy-armored units (even if they're only wounding on a 5 or a 6).
I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.
Mostly I like the points increases too.
Tables should feel bigger...
Banshees should ignore overwatch on a leadership -2.
trying to wrap my head around the harlequins. 4+ invuln is nice, but it seems their cc weapons got worse (although applies to all attacks, not just 1 I guess). What is up with the neuro disruptor? It's terrible now and costs more than the fusion pistol. Otherwise, things looking fun right now.
Mostly looks good. 17 points per Dire Avenger makes them one of the worst units in the game though. I'd rather just take twice as many Guardian Defenders in most cases.
jeff white wrote: I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.
WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons. WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this. Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.
There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.
jeff white wrote: I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.
WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons.
WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this.
Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.
There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.
-
Wraithknight still jump right?
And my stock knight will be almost 500 after weapons...
So far everything looks solid, but I did not play in 7th. I'm not sure how Craftworld stacks up with Ynnari though; Soulburst seems a lot better than Battle Focus.
I had no intention of playing jetbike spam anyways.
jeff white wrote: I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.
WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons.
WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this.
Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.
There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.
-
Wraithknight still jump right?
And my stock knight will be almost 500 after weapons...
No, not Jump anymore (though it never really should have been). Their stats are almost identical, yet the IK comes with a better save and is MUCH less once you put weapons on it.
I honestly cannot think of why a WK is significantly more than an IK (other than to make non-Eldar players happy, which is a great way to piss off other players)
I know eldar players aren't used to overcosted units, but i'll need to see all rules to determine if the new wk is fairly costed. Sounds much better than the way it is now. It's better for a unit to be slightly inefficient than be an auto-take.
What is the deal with exarchs? Are they free upgrades and we only pay for thier equipment? Dire avengers seem over costed by them selves but run them with asurman and they seem really good. I like the changes to Phoenix lords and thier points seem far more reasonable. Really like the different combos that they provide to thier aspect warriors. Really like the new avatar. Wondering though if the character status is of set by being a monster. I like the idea of 30 avengers with Asurman and Avatar as a core foot army to build from.
From what I've seen so far "small things" got cheaper and "big things" got more expensive. Overall this is actually good for the game as you should be able to take tons of infantry compared to titan-like stuff.
I'm just a sad panda who has no logical use for these anymore:
Spoiler:
I made those back in 6E to be a pair of special Saim-Hann style WKs. They were my main anti-tank for the list. I made them with the intention of fielding them together 7E came and 1 WK was almost too much cheese for people to handle, so these (my favorite conversions I've ever done) had to be repurposed. I started using them as "counts as" Gk DreadKnights. But the rules for DKs no longer seem to fit as the 'shunt' move is gone. So I was hoping that 8E would make WKs fair to bring 2 again, but not so expensive that I can't bring the rest of my army.
No matter how 'balanced' these changes are (and overall I think they are), I am upset that it means I can't field the models I want without asking my opponent to play over 2000pts.
While I don't play 8th, I can't argue with many of the changes. I'm glad WK are expensive. Even too expensive. Nice to see Jetbike guardians moved back to fast attack where they belong. Nice to see Banshees balanced vs. Scorpions (both being ideal for different purposes).
Glad to see Shining Spears actually serve a purpose.
Very glad to see Dark Reapers return to missile launchers (basically) --- I don't know how long they were stuck with toned down marine-spam weapons.
Phoenix Lords look amusing. Will take if I ever actually play 8th.
Kaughnor wrote: What is the deal with exarchs? Are they free upgrades and we only pay for thier equipment? Dire avengers seem over costed by them selves but run them with asurman and they seem really good. I like the changes to Phoenix lords and thier points seem far more reasonable. Really like the different combos that they provide to thier aspect warriors. Really like the new avatar. Wondering though if the character status is of set by being a monster. I like the idea of 30 avengers with Asurman and Avatar as a core foot army to build from.
I am pretty sure Exarchs are just the unit leader (unless specified otherwise e.g. Crimson Hunter Exarch), they aren't extra and you pay for equipment.
I just realized something that made me die a little inside:
Windriders are not 20ppm....they're 30ppm. You have to add their 10ppm Twin catapults If Shuricannons are only 12ppm, why the heck would you ever take Twin Cats? For only 2pts difference, you get more Str and twice the range. Sure you go from 4 shots to 3, but by woundind thinks on 3+ instead of 4+ or even 5+ and by being able to stay farther away from assaults, I don't see that being an issue. And 8E Shuricannon bikes are only 5pts more than 7E ones. easily worth the extra wound and less opponent complaining.
Galef wrote: I just realized something that made me die a little inside:
Windriders are not 20ppm....they're 30ppm. You have to add their 10ppm Twin catapults
If Shuricannons are only 12ppm, why the heck would you ever take Twin Cats? For only 2pts difference, you get more Str and twice the range.
And 8E Shuricannon bikes are only 5pts more than 7E ones. easily worth the extra wound and less opponent complaining.
-
Seems like they should have started at 30ppm instead of 20ppm. But we'll see.
Yeah, the whole "stock model and purchase all upgrades" is a bit weird and I see a LOT of confusion/questions happening since all the unit entries state that they come with XYZ, but in matched play you ignore that line and you have to buy the upgrades even if it says they already have them in addition to any upgrades you purchase. I can see a lot of incorrect points due to that fact alone, and feel that should have needed clearer writing.
Luckily I was waiting to assemble my Jetbikes until I saw what the new rules were; now I think I'm going to go with two Shuriken Cannons and 1 Scatter Laser.
Wayniac wrote: Yeah, the whole "stock model and purchase all upgrades" is a bit weird and I see a LOT of confusion/questions happening since all the unit entries state that they come with XYZ, but in matched play you ignore that line and you have to buy the upgrades even if it says they already have them in addition to any upgrades you purchase. I can see a lot of incorrect points due to that fact alone, and feel that should have needed clearer writing.
Well... that is quite wierd and counterintuitive. I was just starting to wonder about this myself. It seems like such a strange thing to do.
Overall impressions are... the points seem all over the place and bizarre to say the least. Really want to see how this ends up playing, but Harlequins seem like they are going to have a bad time.
Galef wrote: 2 wound Windriders are nice. Shame they became Fast attack choices. I guess I'll be using that detachment that allows FA are 'core'
Kinda pissed that the WK is OVER 500pts! It needed readjustment, but I was hoping for it to get toned down, not priced up. I have 3 that I'll never be able to take without it being my whole army.
At leats he doesn't cost 900p barebones as a Stompa
admironheart wrote: wow...I am sitting on 50+ dire avengers and still waiting for an edition that they are worth being the main aspect warriors for the elder
I hope some elder cheese will make them worthwhile....sigh
With Battle Focus and Asurman, looks like a durable core that is in range to shoot on turn 1.
admironheart wrote: wow...I am sitting on 50+ dire avengers and still waiting for an edition that they are worth being the main aspect warriors for the elder
I hope some elder cheese will make them worthwhile....sigh
With Battle Focus and Asurman, looks like a durable core that is in range to shoot on turn 1.
They still seem to get very expensive and while the ++ is nice they honestly still will die to bolter fire. We are still t3 w1 infantry.
I think the Avengers will be ok if you build to thier strengths. The access to invul saves overwatch at 5+ and being able to fall back out of combat to set up other avenger squads to shoot sounds like there is opportunity for them to be played tactically. With Asurman and Avatar backing them up they have 4++ saves and ignore morale. Those two characters are solid counter attack beat sticks as well.
I had my first stab at an Eldar List. This seems not too off-base for Eldar:
Vypers are move blockers, everything else shoots and stays in formation to soulburst. Farseer Guides the Rangers (who mostly are there to kill heavies/hidden autocannons) and saves Doom either for "large squads" (which the Reaper Launchers mess up) or for tanks.
MagicJuggler wrote: I had my first stab at an Eldar List. This seems not too off-base for Eldar:
Vypers are move blockers, everything else shoots and stays in formation to soulburst. Farseer Guides the Rangers (who mostly are there to kill heavies/hidden autocannons) and saves Doom either for "large squads" (which the Reaper Launchers mess up) or for tanks.
Overall I'm happy, lots of new changes to get used to, but I can't say anything looks 100% awful.
Banshees I think will not see a ton of play as I really thought S4 in a marine filled world held them back more than anything, but hopefully I'm wrong as I love my girls.
Scorpions seem boss, gonna love them to death, the bonus to hit vs units in cover rule is odd, wonder if it works while in melee?
Avengers stayed mostly the same though now they are 17 ppm (i think), which sucks considering banshees are only 16 (again maybe)
Hawks are now rapid fire 2 which seems interesting. I worry that being S3 guns now without any AP ruined the goal of killing low armored squads. That plus the grenade changes are different, good, but different.
Spiders stayed again mostly the same, super mobile murder machines, nice that they will not loose models as much to jumping as before.
Reapers now with almost-missile launchers and 2 wounds per shot i can't think of anyone better to kill the new marines, bikes, vehicles, and especially fliers
Dragons will kill vehicles and monsters, enough said really
Shining spears look fun, certainly worth considering now with 2 W and 4++ against shooting
I think I can live with this all as a whole, somewhat sad that we can't shoot then move with battle focus anymore as I liked the strike and fade idea, but well worthy sacrifices to have the new edition be (hopefully) more balanced overall, and finally the chance to put warlocks next to aspect squads and have it work! Time to convert some custom warlock models.
As an aside holy gak necron reanimation protocols is just dumb, always the chance to come back on a 5+ every turn no matter what. I see many a 20 man warrior blobs never leaving my table in the future.
What points do you all think the new edition will be played at? I kinda think that 1850 is the new 1500 point list. Been reading the Eldar rules all day. Points seem out of wack but so far I'm really digging war walkers with shuriken cannons.
for 85 points you get scout, move 10+1d6 battle focus with no penalties to shooting 6 rending strength 6 shots. Tough 6 with 6 wounds and 4+.5++ save seems real good for new edition. Also like the idea of 3 vipers with 6 shuriken cannons moving 20 inches while escorting a wave serpent.
So Tacticals went down to 13ppm and Dire Avengers have gone up to 17ppm....riiiiight.
I have a strong feeling this is just typical GW proofreading (lack thereof)...which is why this idea of referring to two lists to get the points cost for a single model is a really bad idea. Everthing so far has indicated that basic troops are going down in cost.
I'm guessing that the base cost of a DA should be 5-7 points based on the power level of 5 DAs when compared with 10 GDs. In this case the two balance systems are clearly incongruent.
What abilities would indicate that a DA should cost over twice as much as a Guardian? It's not Bladestorm as standard shuriken catapults also get that. The overwatch ability is nice but hardly justifies the extra cost.
The flyers seem like standouts to me. They're all pretty durable for their cost, at about 15 points per T6 wound and Hard to Hit (and 5++ for the Dark Eldar flyers). The Craftworld flyers are the only ones that can pivot after moving, and they also come with BS 2+, so being forced to move isn't a big problem for them at all.
Crimson Hunters put out 4 anti-tank shots. So they have more firepower than and similar durability to War Walkers for their cost, generally. The Dark Eldar flyers don't tend to have quite as much sustained firepower but are more durable, and the Voidraven Bomber can do an enormous amount of damage to a large marine squad in one turn with its bomb. There will be matches where it justifies its inclusion in a list in the first movement phase.
Several of the other vehicles also look pretty solid, and if you're already loading up your list with multi-wound high-T you might as well go whole hog.
On-foot shooting doesn't look very good to me by comparison. Maybe Warp Spiders. Rangers might also be pretty good, and they synergize with Doom (though note that they're strictly Character and maybe monster/vehicle killers now). Dark Reapers still have the problem where they're going to die as soon as something looks at them funny and they cost 36 ppw. Granted you can use the Exarch to absorb the first hit if you don't use the Tempest Launcher (but it has as much firepower as 3 other Dark Reapers combined so why wouldn't you).
Putting shooty infantry in vehicles looks really good for Dark Eldar now. Craftworlders could do it too but alpha strikes are a lot less powerful now -- your Fire Dragons are probably not going to blow up a tank in one volley. Wraithguard /seem/ aggressively costed but I'm a little worried about small multi-wound models since people are likely to be taking lots of multi-damage weapons anyway. But the open-topped DE transports just became much better gun platforms.
My big worry with stuff like Jetbikes, though this applies also to anything that's fragile for its cost, is that lots of lists now have access to coordinated, no-scatter Deep Striking, /and/ people can freely divide up shooting among different units. Like, consider MagicJuggler's list with all the small Jetbike squads. I haven't spent much time looking at what the Marines can do now but what happens when someone Deep Strikes in up to 50% of their army on turn 1 and weakens many of your squads before starting to finish them off? You're not getting much out of Soulburst at that point and you're starting at a big disadvantage.
Edit: Also, something interesting is that the Ynnari psychic power Word of the Phoenix can give /any/ Ynnari unit a Soulburst activation, not just those units which have Strength from Death. So, vehicles and the giant walkers. Now, only Yvraine and the Yncarne can actually cast it, but that's a really flexible ability, and is also just generally way above the curve for psychic powers.
Edit2: Actually, some of the stuff I'm pointing out as really solid choices sort of illustrates the problem with these small multi-wound models. A stock Razorwing Jetfighter is 175 points. In one Shooting Phase it expects to kill nearly 3 T4 W2 4+ models. Granted, Disintegrator Cannons are basically designed to kill Jetbikes, but the defensive profile here is just not that different from Primaris Marines. You don't get invulnerable saves anymore and cover only makes you just as durable as a marine standing in the open.
I can take the 'nerf' to scatterbikes but the massive increase in the cost of basic bikes is a bit hard to take.
I think that mass deep striking can now be mitigated by using transports. Wave Serpents in particular are going to be hard nuts to crack. As you point out, even a smaller FD squad will struggle to one shot most vehicles so holding your army in transports is going to be an effective way of countering aggressive deep strike play.
Have you ever tried Dark Reapers in a Wave Serpent? They don't suffer any penalties for moving so I think this will be an excellent way to use them. They can actually synergise with other units rather than sitting in the backfield waiting to be shot at.
How the hell is the +1 to WS going to work on Succubus (or Lelith since it seems she just started to say yes to drugs). Do they touch automatically? Is anybody a bit surprised by the fact that Succubus, pearless duelists, are worse in combat than Archons?
Madoch1 wrote: It kind of sucks that the FW corsairs weren't put into that book. The launch of 8th would have been a golden opportunity.
All of the dedicated fw armies will come out with the fw indexes shouldn't really be a problem. I would have like to have seen them day 1 along with our other fw stuff though for sure.
jeff white wrote: I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.
WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons.
WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this.
Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.
There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.
-
No! You eldars get to enjoy the WKs as gmc and being 290pts standard stock (no upgrades) compared to IKs at 325 standard stock (no upgrades) as shv which sucked!
Feel the nerf bat swing at your balls!
Eldar deserved the biggest heaviest thickest smelliest nastiest piece of wood rammed up their nerf hole.
jeff white wrote: I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.
WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons.
WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this.
Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.
There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.
-
No! You eldars get to enjoy the WKs as gmc and being 290pts standard stock (no upgrades) compared to IKs at 325 standard stock (no upgrades) as shv which sucked!
Feel the nerf bat swing at your balls!
Eldar deserved the biggest heaviest thickest smelliest nastiest piece of wood rammed up their nerf hole.
see this is just dumb.....really dumb.
Eldar due to be toned down? Absolutely agree with you. However, this version was to be about balance, not a version of making one faction better or nerfing another. If you think otherwise, then you are probably the kind of guy that I wouldn't want to play against anyway.
CadianGateTroll wrote: Eldar deserved the biggest heaviest thickest smelliest nastiest piece of wood rammed up their nerf hole.
Wow
I played most of 2nd and all of 3rd and a bit of 4th. I was not an elder player of the editions that made you bitter. SO WHY WOULD YOU WANT a returning player to suffer from game imbalance???
Seems you would rather have the game shrink in player base than welcome new and old players back in. I love my PDF, and non wych/non raider DE and my Footdar. The last thing I want to play is an unbalanced enemy in either way. (Like when my shuriken catapults were designed to be better than a storm bolter but got nerfed to 12" and then Tau come along with 30"....wtf.
I'm all for making a model pay for its CURRENT rules. But asking for a model that was PREVIOUSLY undercosted to overpay now for rules it no longer has is ridiculous.
I don't want the WK to be less or more than an IK. If they start with the same stat line, they should have the same base points cost. Their weapons should be what makes the points cost different.
Right now, I don't see any reason to play Craftworld over Ynnari as Strength from Death is way more powerful than Battle Focus and Ancient Doom. Especially as in Ynnari, you can deliver Incubi + Drazhar or Harlequins with a wave serpent thanks to Ynnead's Will. Throw in a cheap Warlock with Word of the Phoenix and it just gets better as they will get two fight phases (who says death stars are dead?)! I'm sure this will change once the Craftworld receives its first book and they make Aspect warriors and jetbikes troops and such.
Drukhari seem decent. The new Power from Pain is good and now reliable. They can still spam Dark lances/Blasters/Blast Pistols, Raiders are not 1-shot disabled, Mandrakes got a nice buff ( I can see them being awesome objective grabbers), Urien with a bunch of Wracks or Grotesques looks like a good objective camper as well, and the Void Raven looks playable with it's new bomb rule. I think they will play much like they always have in that if you can get the alpha strike off on your opponent you're in good shape.
They were a little heavy handed with the Wraithknight. The Wraithcannon should have been given a fixed dmg value of 4 or 5 (considering a star cannon is fixed 3) instead of D6dmg. Paying that amount of points and rolling 1's or 2's is just sad trombones. I think titanic ghostglaive and scattershield is the loadout I predict we'll see now (if at all) with it just hugging terrain and running into melee as it should 1-round most vehicles in the game now or put the other 'titanics' into their lower brackets.
I cannot believe that dire avengers are 17 points while space marines are 13 points a piece... who playtested this??
You can give them some buffs (avatar, asurmen, autarch) but that shouldn't drive their price up. Every other army can buff their troops as well.
Dire avengers must be some of the worst troops choices I have ever seen
RE: Bikes I do think there is some viable reasons for shuriken cannons over scatter lasers now. Since I haven't assembled mine at all yet, I plan to do 2 shuriken cannons and 1 scatter laser, so basically keeping a 1 in 3 scatter laser ratio.
I'm just happy that the shurican cannon has become the better weapon. I've always defaulted to this weapon as it is iconically Eldar, and will suit mobility themed armies (even foot). I don't have jetbikes, as I usually run sky weavers instead, but still excited to see the cannon back as the default weapon.
pingu wrote: I cannot believe that dire avengers are 17 points while space marines are 13 points a piece... who playtested this??
You can give them some buffs (avatar, asurmen, autarch) but that shouldn't drive their price up. Every other army can buff their troops as well.
Dire avengers must be some of the worst troops choices I have ever seen
And that is their point per model WITHOUT wargear, Avenger Catapult is 7ppm extra that you have to add. So DA's final cost is 17ppm
bullyboy wrote: I'm just happy that the shurican cannon has become the better weapon. I've always defaulted to this weapon as it is iconically Eldar.
I completely agree. I was taking 2 Shuricannons + 1 Scatter per unit already. I only had the Scatter laser in due to range, but I can now take them all Shuricannon like I want.
MagicJuggler wrote: I had my first stab at an Eldar List. This seems not too off-base for Eldar:
Vypers are move blockers, everything else shoots and stays in formation to soulburst. Farseer Guides the Rangers (who mostly are there to kill heavies/hidden autocannons) and saves Doom either for "large squads" (which the Reaper Launchers mess up) or for tanks.
jeff white wrote: Imwishbthat bikes went back to one weapon upgrade for every three models...
The model kit assures that will never happen,.
It used to be an eldar army limitation... Regardless of what came in the kit it was a rule.
And that was back when you bought your bikes individually. So you could totally buy twenty Shrieker jetbikes (with the shuriken cannons), you just couldn't actually play with them unless you bought forty normal jetbikes too.
So stop giving us this "but the kit..." nonsense. Kits come with the parts to build them in illegal configurations all the time. I've run across kids who put plasma cannons in the hull mount on their Russes because they didn't read the Codex first, and kids who put both sponsons on the same side of their Land Raiders because nothing told them they couldn't, why should jetbikes have their legality depend on the kit? Unless you want to argue that Tactical Squads should obviously be able to take a flamer, meltagun, plasmagun, grav-gun, heavy bolter, and missile launcher and shouldn't be able to take any other heavy weapons, because that's what the kit comes with?
(Or came with. I haven't actually bought a Tactical Squad kit in a long time, that may be the 4e-vintage kit with a grav-gun tacked on.)
Martel732 wrote: I've said for a while that da are better than tacs because of the weapon.
I agree the weapon is better, but DAs are still only T3, 4+sv. DAs and Tac Marines should be roughly the same cost, with DAs maybe, MAYBE being 1ppm more.
We'll see who ends up being correct in the long run here. I'm betting on the 1 per 3 restriction never coming back. I think the kit is the major reason, but that's just my view. Regulation of these weapons will have to be point based.
Martel732 wrote: I've said for a while that da are better than tacs because of the weapon.
I agree the weapon is better, but DAs are still only T3, 4+sv. DAs and Tac Marines should be roughly the same cost, with DAs maybe, MAYBE being 1ppm more.
T3 and 4+ means less now than it did before, I think. I guess we'll find out. Faster things in 8th ed seem to pay for it. DA are MUCH faster than tacs, who have to take a rhino to move.
AnomanderRake wrote: Unless you want to argue that Tactical Squads should obviously be able to take a flamer, meltagun, plasmagun, grav-gun, heavy bolter, and missile launcher and shouldn't be able to take any other heavy weapons, because that's what the kit comes with?
This example doesn't work in comparison to Windriders. It would only be the same if a box of 10 marines came with 10 melta, 10 heavy bolters, 10 lascannons, 10 Plasma guns, 10 flamers, etc
Windriders come with enough weapons for EACH model to have the same weapon upgrade.
At any rate, Windriders are Fast Attack now, not Troops so people should stop complaining
Martel732 wrote: DA are MUCH faster than tacs, who have to take a rhino to move.
Not sure how 1" is "MUCH" faster, but ok. Sure Battle Focus allows them to Advance and shoot normally, but they could do that in 7E, with a re-roll to the Run. They get no re-roll now, but the +1" to move.
Galef wrote: I just realized something that made me die a little inside:
Windriders are not 20ppm....they're 30ppm. You have to add their 10ppm Twin catapults
If Shuricannons are only 12ppm, why the heck would you ever take Twin Cats? For only 2pts difference, you get more Str and twice the range.
And 8E Shuricannon bikes are only 5pts more than 7E ones. easily worth the extra wound and less opponent complaining.
-
Seems like they should have started at 30ppm instead of 20ppm. But we'll see.
they lost jump shoot jump so really they have o stay in los and within weapons range so I would actually say they are much more reasonable, 30 ppm then a gun would mean nobody would take them .
compared to a space marine bike the gain (assuming scatter bikes) 2 inches of movement, and + 12" range on the scatter laser which does str 6 (no longer wounding on 2's unless T3 models) no ap
they share th same WS and BS
space marine bikes get +1 str +1 T and +1 save at S4 T5 sv 3+ and can take 2 special weapons now if I am reading this correctly so 2 special weapons plus a sarg.
scatter bikes are 3 points more per model pricier... they have different roles, but I think they toned the windriders down to on par with marine bikes and with the changes to armor that str 6 ap- is not nearly as bad. as they are now a FA too competing with the slot I foresee much less of them.
though i have a thought (has been known to happen occasionally they are even good ones)... the elder start collecting box now lacks a troop
I maintain that the Dire Avengers cost must be an error, it doesn't make sense with their power rating: 5 Banshees cost 4 power while 5 Dire Avengers cost 3 power despite the fact that the latter cost 1 more ppm. Makes no sense.
---
Its a shame Scorps & Banshees seem to remain weak with only 2 attacks per model... Units such as Harlequins & Incubi look far better on paper.
Needing Troops is now not important. The Outrider detachment requires 1HQ and 3 Fast Attack and gives +1CP.
And many of the Start Collecting boxes were formations and now only fit into the Patrol detachment.
Khaine wrote: I maintain that the Dire Avengers cost must be an error, it doesn't make sense with their power rating: 5 Banshees cost 4 power while 5 Dire Avengers cost 3 power despite the fact that the latter cost 1 more ppm. Makes no sense.
the only reason I can think of for the Avenger catapult having a cost is because Autarchs can take them, so they need a points value. What they should have done then, if make the base cost of DAs about 7-8ppm.
Let's also keep in mind that Exarchs can now be included as NO additional cost above the initial Aspect + wargear.
Khaine wrote: I maintain that the Dire Avengers cost must be an error, it doesn't make sense with their power rating: 5 Banshees cost 4 power while 5 Dire Avengers cost 3 power despite the fact that the latter cost 1 more ppm. Makes no sense.
---
Its a shame Scorps & Banshees seem to remain weak with only 2 attacks per model... Units such as Harlequins & Incubi look far better on paper.
Scorpions are going to assassinate those pesky sniper rifle units
Adding to my earlier thoughts: because differences in strength and toughness don't matter nearly as much now, Star- and Disintegrator Cannons are competitive with Bright/Dark Lances even for anti-tank purposes.
Consider Starcannons. Against everything except T7, they are at worst still 2/3 as likely to wound per shot as a S8 Lance. Even against T7 they are still half as likely to wound. But they get twice as many shots! And they do 3 damage reliably compared to the Bright Lance's noisy 3.5. They have slightly worse penetration but again this means that at worst the Lance's target is only 25% more likely to fail its save.
Consider some profiles:
T7 4+: SC is 14% worse than a BL T8 4+: 14% better
Note that the BL's advantage against good saves goes away if the target has a 5++. So it's really only T7 that gives Starcannons a hard time. Disintegrator Cannons are pretty similar except they also suffer against T6.
Of course these guns are also just hugely better against targets with fewer wounds. So you're not really choosing between anti- heavy infantry and anti- tank anymore when it comes to Cannons vs Lances; now you're mostly paying a small premium to just add anti- heavy infantry capability to your anti- tank gun.
Concerned that while the standard Troupe gets a much needed 4++ and the Troupe Master gets a welcome five wounds, that leaves the Solitaire in light of the WS changes and no Eternal Warrior to be little more than a Troupe Master with slightly more frills. You kind of wish they had a rule that subtracts one from to-hit roll results targeting him.
MagicJuggler wrote: I had my first stab at an Eldar List. This seems not too off-base for Eldar:
Vypers are move blockers, everything else shoots and stays in formation to soulburst. Farseer Guides the Rangers (who mostly are there to kill heavies/hidden autocannons) and saves Doom either for "large squads" (which the Reaper Launchers mess up) or for tanks.
Khaine wrote: I maintain that the Dire Avengers cost must be an error, it doesn't make sense with their power rating: 5 Banshees cost 4 power while 5 Dire Avengers cost 3 power despite the fact that the latter cost 1 more ppm. Makes no sense.
---
Its a shame Scorps & Banshees seem to remain weak with only 2 attacks per model... Units such as Harlequins & Incubi look far better on paper.
Scorpions and Banshees have always been 'niche' rather than 'take all comers' combat monsters. With command points, Scorpions will hopefully be able to enter the table and reliably pull off a charge. Banshees have a significant threat range so I think I'll end up running them in a Wave Serpent. Remember that they're now hitting everything on 3s and Autarchs allow you to re-roll 1s.
It's nice that Eldar received a bit of a survivability boost overall now that S5 no longer wounds on 2s.
The DA points cost is definitely a mistake. There's no rationalising it. A tactical marine squad will still outshoot DAs in a 1v1 firefight. I agree that there has been a narrowing but it isn't enough to justify a DA costing nearly 1/3 more than a tactical marine. That's just silly.
Is there a rule that says that all units come with no gear?
On each of the unit cards it says that this unit comes with these weapons. The way i read it was that a dire avenger is 10 pts with weapon and grenade and a wraithknight already comes with 2 heavy wraithcannons which if you remove you take 100 pts and then replace with sunfire or glaive/shield which cost more.
To me that is how i read it but if it is stated somewhere or by GW that this is the way it is supposed to be done then i will be very confused about some of the points costs. DA are the worst of the lot imo.
Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
On each of the unit cards it says that this unit comes with these weapons. The way i read it was that a dire avenger is 10 pts with weapon and grenade and a wraithknight already comes with 2 heavy wraithcannons which if you remove you take 100 pts and then replace with sunfire or glaive/shield which cost more.
To me that is how i read it but if it is stated somewhere or by GW that this is the way it is supposed to be done then i will be very confused about some of the points costs. DA are the worst of the lot imo.
Each Index has about a 2 page layout with all the points for each Faction. Most have 2-3 lists.
1 for units (does not include wargear points),
1 for said wargear
and 1 with units that includes wargear points (this is for Characters that have set options)
So the datasheet tells you want the unit composition is and what wargear it comes equipped with. It is up to you to do all the math to make sure all units have their basic loadout accounted for.
Each Index has about a 2 page layout with all the points for each Faction. Most have 2-3 lists.
1 for units (does not include wargear points),
1 for said wargear
and 1 with units that includes wargear points (this is for Characters that have set options)
So the datasheet tells you want the unit composition is and what wargear it comes equipped with. It is up to you to do all the math to make sure all units have their basic loadout accounted for.
-
I see the rule now, kind of sucks as necron warriors are clearly better then a DA at 12 pts. More range, better toughness + reanimation, and -1 AP. Since you can no longer move shoot move you would have to keep anything with 24 inch weapons with rapid fire out of that 12 inch range. Really DA's should be 10-12 pts total. Better to use big units guardians now i think.
SilverAlien wrote: Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
Yeah in my view there's almost no reason for CWE not to field as Ynnari. Dark Eldar probably benefit but they're losing much more tangible benefits. Harlies have the worst time of it, if I was fielding them alongside a Ynnari force I'd probably field them as non-Ynnari units.
SilverAlien wrote: Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
Yeah in my view there's almost no reason for CWE not to field as Ynnari. Dark Eldar probably benefit but they're losing much more tangible benefits. Harlies have the worst time of it, if I was fielding them alongside a Ynnari force I'd probably field them as non-Ynnari units.
Yeah, when I finally got around to looking at the eldar that was the impression I got. Dark eldar are a maybe, craftworld are a yes, and harlies are a no. CWE even have kinda mediocre psychic abilities compared to ynnari as well, which is a little sad.
SilverAlien wrote: Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
Yeah in my view there's almost no reason for CWE not to field as Ynnari. Dark Eldar probably benefit but they're losing much more tangible benefits. Harlies have the worst time of it, if I was fielding them alongside a Ynnari force I'd probably field them as non-Ynnari units.
Yeah, when I finally got around to looking at the eldar that was the impression I got. Dark eldar are a maybe, craftworld are a yes, and harlies are a no. CWE even have kinda mediocre psychic abilities compared to ynnari as well, which is a little sad.
Only problem there is the revenant powers are currently restricted just to the triumvirate. Normal eldar psychers are unfortunately still stuck in the not so fun zone. Admittedly I see fortune being decently good on massive low such as the titans, the wk is probably to overcosted to invest powers into.
Ynnari look strong just as faction rules they just seem better especially in an edition that looks like it favours msu. Exarchs are also free so that fits well with msu needed for strength from death.
The ynnari hq choices don't look super good to me but I want to try the yncarne at least I bought the triumvirate and have only ever used them in a heavily proxied game vs my brother.
Some of the aspect warriors look very expensive to me but there are also some units that look pretty sweet. Wave serpents for one don't seem to have gone up nearly as much as other transports and still are good survivable gun platforms. Shinning Spears seem to have come of brilliantly. I'm rather liking dark reapers to but I always did.
SilverAlien wrote: Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
Yeah in my view there's almost no reason for CWE not to field as Ynnari. Dark Eldar probably benefit but they're losing much more tangible benefits. Harlies have the worst time of it, if I was fielding them alongside a Ynnari force I'd probably field them as non-Ynnari units.
The value to CWE will probably come from the unique strategems that will be available when you run a specific craftworld keyword.
My group will predominantly be playing with power levels and not points, so the minute point issues won't really affect me.
Personally I am just glad I can field my eldar united army (corsair, craftworlds, Harlequin, dark eldar, and the Ynnari) in a single detachment. Probably going to play most games at power level 100-150.
I'm mainly happy but I don't see why the Banshee Executioner has a hit penalty which I find weird and I'm unsure about how good Scorpions Stealth rule will be.
Why the Yncarne has a 4++ for being an Avatar but Khaine doesn't baffles me. They should nerf Yncarne or buff Khaine.
The way I'm reading this I could take, say, Haemonculi, Grotesques, Taloi and Reavers then add Yrvaine and some Rangers all in the Battallion chart. The Covens stuff would keep PFP and I could have the Rangers and Reavers be Ynarri.
Does that look right to everyone else? If so I could equally take Ynarri incubi and Drazhar. He would just keep PfP and they would get SfD.
Drager wrote: The way I'm reading this I could take, say, Haemonculi, Grotesques, Taloi and Reavers then add Yrvaine and some Rangers all in the Battallion chart. The Covens stuff would keep PFP and I could have the Rangers and Reavers be Ynarri.
Does that look right to everyone else? If so I could equally take Ynarri incubi and Drazhar. He would just keep PfP and they would get SfD.
I'm not sure. The Ynarri section details how to make an "Ynnari army", not "Ynnari units" or "Ynarri detachments". Armies are not well defined in the rulebook, as opposed to detachment and units.
From what I gather, it seems that "army" is always used to refer to the sum of all your detachments. In that case, "Ynnari army" could refer to an army that only contains Ynnari models, in which case becoming Ynarri is an all-or-nothing deal, and you couldn't mix Ynnari with non-Ynnari Aeldari.
Or Ynnari army only refers to an army that contains Ynnari units, in which case you can give the Ynnari keyword (with appropriate rule changes) to units on a one-to-one basis.
Does anyone have more insight on what Ynnari army could refer to exactly?
Enigma of the Absolute wrote: What abilities would indicate that a DA should cost over twice as much as a Guardian? It's not Bladestorm as standard shuriken catapults also get that. The overwatch ability is nice but hardly justifies the extra cost.
6" range over standard catapult is big(2 big 6" range increases. 12->18 and 24->30) as it means when you are in shooting range enemy isn't in average charge range with infantry. But 7 pts is too steep even for that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: Needing Troops is now not important. The Outrider detachment requires 1HQ and 3 Fast Attack and gives +1CP.
Not important but generally if you have 2 units that are same you want them to be troops rather than any other choise.
I am trying to get my head around the Shadowseer's Twilight Pathways physic power- it says it can target any Harlequin unit that is visible and within 3" of the psyker.
Does that mean that the 'seer could cast it on a Starweaver? Could he cast it on a Starweaver that he is embarked in?
Drager wrote: The way I'm reading this I could take, say, Haemonculi, Grotesques, Taloi and Reavers then add Yrvaine and some Rangers all in the Battallion chart. The Covens stuff would keep PFP and I could have the Rangers and Reavers be Ynarri.
Does that look right to everyone else? If so I could equally take Ynarri incubi and Drazhar. He would just keep PfP and they would get SfD.
I'm not sure. The Ynarri section details how to make an "Ynnari army", not "Ynnari units" or "Ynarri detachments". Armies are not well defined in the rulebook, as opposed to detachment and units.
From what I gather, it seems that "army" is always used to refer to the sum of all your detachments. In that case, "Ynnari army" could refer to an army that only contains Ynnari models, in which case becoming Ynarri is an all-or-nothing deal, and you couldn't mix Ynnari with non-Ynnari Aeldari.
Or Ynnari army only refers to an army that contains Ynnari units, in which case you can give the Ynnari keyword (with appropriate rule changes) to units on a one-to-one basis.
Does anyone have more insight on what Ynnari army could refer to exactly?
Yeah, I saw that, but army doesn't seem to be defined anywhere. If they meant it to mean that you can't take none Ynarri models that share a keyword I would hope they would have been more explicit instead of leaving it to implication.
Melissia wrote: I find it hilarious that Phoenix Lord Asurmen is, in the US and Canada sites at least, listed under "Adeptus Ministorum" on the GW Website.
Who you think gave the hover-techonology to the Imperium to make that new Primaris tank?
I have not read this entire thread yet, but I started a Eldar army last weekend, going with a Wraith host style army, with some fast units around the edges. I'm pretty exited, as its something I always wanted to try. New edition, new army!
Melissia wrote: I find it hilarious that Phoenix Lord Asurmen is, in the US and Canada sites at least, listed under "Adeptus Ministorum" on the GW Website.
Maybe he and Celestine are hanging out, killing Chaos and stuff - after all she did seem less bothered about working with the Xenos than most of the Imperial forces in Gathering Storm......
Looking forward to getting my books as looking at scans is a pain and I didn't get all of them.
