So I asked this already on reddit and got very mixed answers. Might aswell try my luck here.

So a question regarding Massive Scything talons on Tyranids:

I noticed the ruling on these is "If the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights." The Trygon and Trygon prime have 3 pairs of these and 6 attacks base so 5-6 attacks with the talons (one possibly forced to go on a tail). My question is, if I attack with these, even splitting my attacks so all pairs get to attack if needed. Do I get only +1 attack, or do I get +3 attacks? Because each of these weapons have the same ruling and when "checking" for additional pairs of talons, there is always two additional pairs present when attacking with one pair. Many have said that you only get +1 and many are onboard that it is indeed +3 attacks.

So what are your thoughts on the matter? 1 or 3? I would love to get this cleared.

You can split your attacks into each Talon and gain a bonus attack each time. So you can legitimately get 3 bonus attacks RAW with those weapons.

I don't think you even need to split attacks to get the extras.

Drager wrote:
I don't think you even need to split attacks to get the extras.

Indeed - you just need to have the weapon to gain the additional attacks - same as a Chain sword or Chopper

 Mr Morden wrote:

Drager wrote:
I don't think you even need to split attacks to get the extras.

Indeed - you just need to have the weapon to gain the additional attacks - same as a Chain sword or Chopper

I'm not so sure that's true. It's not 1 additional attack PER pair, it's one additional attack for HAVING more than one pair.

So if you use one pair to make attacks, you get 1 additional attack because you have two more pairs, RAW. If you split your attacks between the pairs (something that looks to be RAW but I'm personally not 100% sure is RAI so it's not how I'm playing it until it's confirmed), THEN you get more extra attacks because each time you attack with a pair, you read the description and get the extra attack for that pair due to the existence of the other pairs.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Drager wrote:
I don't think you even need to split attacks to get the extras.

Indeed - you just need to have the weapon to gain the additional attacks - same as a Chain sword or Chopper

I'm not so sure that's true. It's not 1 additional attack PER pair, it's one additional attack for HAVING more than one pair.

So if you use one pair to make attacks, you get 1 additional attack because you have two more pairs, RAW. If you split your attacks between the pairs (something that looks to be RAW but I'm personally not 100% sure is RAI so it's not how I'm playing it until it's confirmed), THEN you get more extra attacks because each time you attack with a pair, you read the description and get the extra attack for that pair due to the existence of the other pairs.

That's a valid point, that you only get +3 attacks, if you attack with all 3 in a single fight phase. Then again it feels very stupid that you need to declare you attack with 3 different yet identical weapons, so you get the bonus. Why is there even an option not to then? Who would not want +3 attacks instead of +1?

"If the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights."

#

The way I read it is that you just have to possess the weapons but yep you are right its plural ("more than one pair") in this particular case.

 Mr Morden wrote:

"If the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights."

#

The way I read it is that you just have to possess the weapons but yep you are right its plural ("more than one pair") in this particular case.

Actually now I think you might be right lol.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous/massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

Every time the model fights, it would then make an additional attack for the weapon because it has more than one, regardless of which weapon it chose, right? For example, if a trygon could have boneswords, and had boneswords plus 2 pairs of massive scything talons, it could attack with the boneswords and have an extra attack with each pair of scything talons, right? Or am I reading it wrong now?

Because it says "each time it fights," not "each time it attacks with this weapon" or something similar. My bad! Sorry to make anyone doubt if this is the case, which it looks to be now I've reread the rule.

Yeah, I don't see how this can be read except as saying that, every single time the model fights, regardless of which weapon it makes its base attacks with, it makes one free attack with each pair of scything talons provided that it has at least two pairs.

But if those rules apply every time you fight, and you don't actually need to use the weapon, I don't see why you would read the rules as applying three separate times. You would just read them once, and get one extra attack.

But on the other hand I don't understand why any models would have three sets of 30 pt scything talons if they could only ever get an extra one attack from them.

Tower wrote:
But if those rules apply every time you fight, and you don't actually need to use the weapon, I don't see why you would read the rules as applying three separate times. You would just read them once, and get one extra attack.

But on the other hand I don't understand why any models would have three sets of 30 pt scything talons if they could only ever get an extra one attack from them.

I don't see where you're coming from.

So, suppose your model has three weapons: a Chainsword, a Bo-bainsword, and a Banana-fana fo-fainsword. Each weapon has an ability like: "the bearer can make one additional attack with this weapon each time it fights". Then surely what happens is that when the model fights, it gets its base attacks with the weapon of its choice -- perhaps a different weapon entirely like a power axe -- and then it gets to make one additional attack with the chainsword, one additional attack with the bo-bainsword, etc. Right? Their rules don't say anything about having to make a base attack with the weapon in order to get the additional attack. And they stack because there's nothing indicating that they don't stack.

Likewise, if a model just had three chainswords, surely they work the same. There's no uniqueness rule for weapons. If I have two melta guns I get to shoot both, and I get to roll-two-choose-one for damage on both of their attacks. I can make my base attacks with a power axe and then I get one additional attack with each chainsword.

If my model has a chainsword, with the usual rule, and a schmainsword, which says: "if the bearer also has a chainsword, it can make one additional attack with this weapon each time it fights", then surely it's going to get two additional attacks. The chainsword is going to do what it always does, and then the model gets another additional attack from the schmainsword. Its conditional rule is telling you when it gives you an additional attack; it's not just reminder text telling you to remember that chainswords give you an additional attack.

Put it all together and I think it's clear how scything talons have to work. I have three weapons. Each weapon gives me an additional attack if a condition is met. The condition is met. So I get an additional attack from each weapon.

I had this same discuusion with my gaming group until i spotted this.

if you read the tyranid points values page 2 it lists

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs) (Trygon and Trygon Prime)

so it listed as a single weapon not 3 weapons.

so think you only get the +1 attack for it.

pottsye wrote:
I had this same discuusion with my gaming group until i spotted this.

if you read the tyranid points values page 2 it lists

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs) (Trygon and Trygon Prime)

so it listed as a single weapon not 3 weapons.

so think you only get the +1 attack for it.

Discounted similarly to Lightning Claws, which have a similar rule as well (difference being the lightning claws say you get an extra attack with "them" as opposed to scything talons which say "this weapon". If you have two lightning claws, you make one extra attack with them. For each pair of scything talons you possess, you make an extra attack due to the wording of "make an additional attack with this weapon." You have 3 weapons that each say that.

Tower wrote:
But if those rules apply every time you fight, and you don't actually need to use the weapon, I don't see why you would read the rules as applying three separate times. You would just read them once, and get one extra attack.

But on the other hand I don't understand why any models would have three sets of 30 pt scything talons if they could only ever get an extra one attack from them.

You actually get all three for 60 points total, you don't have to buy them individually. I'm in the camp that the Trygon gets only 1 bonus attack, no matter how you allocate the attacks among the identical weapons.

i would love that to be right as i am a nid player , for now i am playing it as +1 attack only

Becasue with the lightning claws the model has the option to buy the weapon twice so you have 2 weapons purchased.
it the same argument with chainswords and even deffclaws, you purchase the weapon more then once to get bonus.

But With the trygon/prime you are only purchasing a single weapon from the weapons page which happens to be described as 3 weapons.

i doubt we will have a true anwser though until they release an FAQ as it is not written very well.

You are purchasing 3 weapons, but are given one option and one price for all 3 - same as with paying one price for 2 lightning claws (which again, gives a discount for the second as you're just buying an extra attack). There is literally no reason for it to say that the Trygon has 3 [b]pairs[\b] of scything talons if you just simply attack with "Scything Talons." There is no weapon that is called "Massive Scything Talons (two or more pairs)." You attack with one pair of them, and read the description and think about how you have 3 pairs total.

I thought it was +1 attack until I literally just read the rule again today and it's fairly plain now that I did more than just glance at it.

I understand the hesitancy to play it this way and respect that, but after reading it again, we know that it possesses 3 of the weapon profile on its page, it's a pretty solid argument for 3 extra attacks. Or find the profile for "Massive Scything Talons (two or more pairs)"

Just a side note, I am loving the discussion this thread has sparked!
Also I respect all sides of the argument as the rule is very difficult to interpret "correctly." Personally I am one for the +3 attack camp.
Because I see them as three weapons that all have a conditional special requirement that is met in all three cases, so there for the rule comes to play three times with each weapon.
This is ofcourse how the rule is RAW, but given the Trygon already has 6 attacks base, this would pump it to a whopping 9 attacks that seems very unfair. Given it's other stats and point cost, so the RAI may be different.
We'll just have to wait and see what the official FAQ says, when it finally drops.

dont forget the mawloc

8 base attacks, if done as +3 attack that 11 attacks!

to me that too powerful.

At end of day play with the rules that your gaming group feels comfortable with and hopefuly not to long for an FAQ

pottsye wrote:
dont forget the mawloc

8 base attacks, if done as +3 attack that 11 attacks!

to me that too powerful.

At end of day play with the rules that your gaming group feels comfortable with and hopefuly not to long for an FAQ

This is also true, though the Mawloc has no shooting capabilities and it has 2 different weapons that it needs to attack with, so in the end it still does "only" 9 attacks with the talons, that are way weaker than the Massive counterparts, so I believe that is meant for it to balance out a bit.
Still pumping an Attack characteristic to 11 is massive, no matter how you look at it.

Oh and Mawlocs WS is 1 worse than the Trygons.

I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.

Lungpickle wrote:
I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.

It does. It says "with this weapon".

 Lance845 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.

It does. It says "with this weapon".

No, 'with this weapon' means you have to use that weapon to make the bonus attack(s), it doesn't imply anything else.

I think this is going to require a FAQ. I think out can reasonably be read as either +1 attack for each pair of talons so long as you have more than one, or as + a single attack so long as you have more than pair of talons.

I prefer to play these situations in the manner least beneficial to me, that way I can't be disappointed and am currently playing my Trygons as 6 attacks + 1 tail attack (or 7 attacks for the Prime, but I'm not sold on the need for the Prime yet).

Even at 6 attacks Trygons are still a rock solid unit. The tunnel alone + the number of wounds it can tank for things like Swarmy are worth the cost, and Mr. Gian Snake Monster still hits hard. Just don't throw him into hordes of Guard or Orcs and he will do fine.

 yakface wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.

It does. It says "with this weapon".

No, 'with this weapon' means you have to use that weapon to make the bonus attack(s), it doesn't imply anything else.

I don't see how that's relevant to the number of extra attacks.

I think the RAW is quite clear; you'd get an extra attack for each pair of scything talons used.

Let's imagine for a second that the weapon profile was almost exactly the same, except it was a gun:

Massive Scything Talon<guns> <12"> <Assault 3> User -3 D6 You can reroll hits of 1 when <firing> this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of Massive Scything Talon<guns> it can <t>ake 1 additional <shot> with this weapon each time it <shoots>.

There would be no discussion whatsoever about whether or not a unit with 3 pairs could fire all 3 and get 3 extra shots total.

This scenario just seems weird because it's a melee weapon and it feels counter-intuitive to attack with three copies of the same weapon to proc a bonus three times.

That said, I'm not comfortable assuming the RAW is the same as the RAI here, so I'll only be taking one bonus until it's FAQed.

Yeah I am seeing RAW that it is just a flat +1 attack.

But I would also say the units would have too many attacks if it was +1 each pair

I say this as a Tyranid player

Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c

First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.

Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.

Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.


Each pair is its own weapon with the same rule. When a huge tyrant Buys deathspitters x2 its not 2 guns that shoot 3 times its 2 guns that shoot 3 times EACH.

Just because you buy 2 or 3 pairs together does not mean their weapon profiles combine.

It reads similarly to Vanguard Vets that take two chainswords (don't judge me). Each weapon uses a different attack, both weapons give a bonus attack.

The only difference appears to be the scything talons querying for another pair before giving the bonus.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
It reads similarly to Vanguard Vets that take two chainswords (don't judge me). Each weapon uses a different attack, both weapons give a bonus attack.

The only difference appears to be the scything talons querying for another pair before giving the bonus.

I believe this indeed is the factor that is throwing people off the most. The requirement for 2 or more pairs, if it was worded better there would be no question about this.

For example the rules for a Dread klaw on the Ork Deff Dread states: "Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with each dread klaw it is equipped with."
If this was taken in to account with the MST and their ruling would be: "Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with each pair of Massive scything talons, if it is equipped with two or more pairs."
Given RAI is actually meant to be +3 attacks.

Then this whole post wouldn't have to exist...

Hey

I popped down to game workshop HQ Warhammer world on my lunch break to buy a new model and while I was there I asked one of the GW guys who was teaching people how to play how the rule worked

He said it was +1 attack per weapon.

 yakface wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.

It does. It says "with this weapon".

No, 'with this weapon' means you have to use that weapon to make the bonus attack(s), it doesn't imply anything else.

This is true, and because you can split your attacks, you have to say your using each pair during your attacks.

I think the Trygon, rules as written, would get three bonus attacks by splitting them among the three sets of talons to trigger all of the bonuses. But I would be happier if scything talons (both versions) were worded something like this:

"For each additional pair of scything tallons (or massive) beyond the first, this creature may make one additional attack with this weapon."

That would be a good middle ground, as it would give triple scything guys (Raveners, Trygons, and Mawlocks) two bonus attacks confined to the weapon, it would close the door on this splitting attacks to milk it nonsense, and it would stop the extra attacks from being applied elsewhere. Plus, it makes up for having to waste an attack on the inferior tail weapon.....

 Phazael wrote:
I think the Trygon, rules as written, would get three bonus attacks by splitting them among the three sets of talons to trigger all of the bonuses. But I would be happier if scything talons (both versions) were worded something like this:

"For each additional pair of scything tallons (or massive) beyond the first, this creature may make one additional attack with this weapon."

That would be a good middle ground, as it would give triple scything guys (Raveners, Trygons, and Mawlocks) two bonus attacks confined to the weapon, it would close the door on this splitting attacks to milk it nonsense, and it would stop the extra attacks from being applied elsewhere. Plus, it makes up for having to waste an attack on the inferior tail weapon.....

You don't have to split attacks to milk it. The rules not give you +1a. The bonus attacks have to be made with that weapon when it fights. Even if you had a tail 4th weapon you could make all of its base attacks with the tail and still get 1 bonus attack that must be made with each scytal


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its not " when it fights with this weapon it gets 1 extra attack that must use this weapon".

Its "when it fights it gets 1 extra attack that must use this weapon."

Your base a characteristic can be used however you want. The bonus attacks cannot be made with anything but the pair of scytal that granted it.

 Lance845 wrote:
Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c

First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.

Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.

Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.


Each pair is its own weapon with the same rule. When a huge tyrant Buys deathspitters x2 its not 2 guns that shoot 3 times its 2 guns that shoot 3 times EACH.

Just because you buy 2 or 3 pairs together does not mean their weapon profiles combine.

This seems to be the correct way to go on this. There is no profile for "three pairs of scything talons" - there's a profile for one pair, repeated three times.

It's +1 attack, not +3.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It's +1 attack, not +3.

That's not what the rule says.

I'm in the camp of you get 3 extra attacks. I think what's confusing is the talons only have one line entry for brevity, but it says it's equipped with three, so it really has 3 seperate entries one for each pair of talons, so you have 3 things that each say, ..."make one extra attack." 3 extra attacks in total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c

First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.

Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.

Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.


Each pair is its own weapon with the same rule. When a huge tyrant Buys deathspitters x2 its not 2 guns that shoot 3 times its 2 guns that shoot 3 times EACH.

Just because you buy 2 or 3 pairs together does not mean their weapon profiles combine.

This seems to be the correct way to go on this. There is no profile for "three pairs of scything talons" - there's a profile for one pair, repeated three times.

Yes this

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It's +1 attack, not +3.

That's not what the rule says.

...in your opinion. In mine it is. I read it as one weapon profile with two variants - A) 1 pair, B) more than one pair. They'd have said "add +1A per extra pair" if they'd wanted your interpretation to be the one.

Is unclear. Needs a FAQ. Not much new information to see here

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It's +1 attack, not +3.

That's not what the rule says.

...in your opinion. In mine it is. I read it as one weapon profile with two variants - A) 1 pair, B) more than one pair. They'd have said "add +1A per extra pair" if they'd wanted your interpretation to be the one.

It's not an opinion. That is how english and sentence structure works. It says exactly what I have spelled out. That could easily be one of the many mistakes in the core rules and indexes. But what it actually says is that there are multiple weapons with the same profile.

The Hive Tyrants profile says it is equipped with two pairs of massive scything talons. Below that is a profile for Massive Scything Talons. At the back of the book where the profiles for weapons exist there is no profile for two pairs of Massive Scything talons. There fore... 2 weapons each with their own profile that each grant +1 attack that must be used with that weapon, i.e. +2 attacks.

Is there a profile for 3 pairs of scytal? Nope. Guess it's 3 weapons since it's data slate says it comes equiped with 3 and below that it has a profile for a single pair. Shocker. +3 attacks.

What does each weapon say?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:
Is unclear. Needs a FAQ. Not much new information to see here

It's very clear RAW. It's arguable that it's unclear RAI. I wold appreciate a FAQ for confirmation of intent.

RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

 Xenomancers wrote:
RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

Well, there is no fixing a lack of reading comprehension.

What does each weapon say?

Nothing. There is no 'each weapon'.

The weapon says +1 attack.

if they wanted it to grant more attacks, they would have worded it like the ork dread klaw.

In 8th, models get assign attacks to a weapon profile, it does not matter how many (or few) weapons there are- a trygon does not attack with _3 pairs of massive scything talons_, it attacks with _massive scything talons_, Because it has more than one pair, it ticks the clause in the ability box and gets +1 attack.

The alternatives are:
1+ pair- reroll ones.
2+ pairs- +1 attack and reroll ones.

But the number of pairs are just a qualifier for that ability, they are not separate weapons.

if they wanted it to grant more attacks, it would say so. just like the dread klaw. Elsewise you're making the argument that a twin heavy las cannon has 2 shots, so each barrel fires twice.



Additionally, for weapons that grant bonus attacks, there is no need to fight with that weapon, unless it has completely different wording. Almost all are 'each time bearer fights' as the trigger, the limitation is only for what weapon it can make the extra attack with.

Voss wrote:

What does each weapon say?

Nothing. There is no 'each weapon'.

The weapon says +1 attack.

if they wanted it to grant more attacks, they would have worded it like the ork dread klaw.

In 8th, models get assign attacks to a weapon profile, it does not matter how many (or few) weapons there are- a trygon does not attack with _3 pairs of massive scything talons_, it attacks with _massive scything talons_, Because it has more than one pair, it ticks the clause in the ability box and gets +1 attack.

The alternatives are:
1+ pair- reroll ones.
2+ pairs- +1 attack and reroll ones.

But the number of pairs are just a qualifier for that ability, they are not separate weapons.

if they wanted it to grant more attacks, it would say so. just like the dread klaw. Elsewise you're making the argument that a twin heavy las cannon has 2 shots, so each barrel fires twice.



Additionally, for weapons that grant bonus attacks, there is no need to fight with that weapon, unless it has completely different wording. Almost all are 'each time bearer fights' as the trigger, the limitation is only for what weapon it can make the extra attack with.

It does not say +1 a. It says +1 attack WITH THIS WEAPON. There is no profile... anywhere... for a weapon that is multiple pairs of scything talons. Your last part is correct, The Scytals do not require you to use them to gt the bonus attacks. It has the "each time the bearer fights" trigger.



"A Hive Tyrant is a single model equipped with two pairs of monstrous scything talons and a prehensile pincer tail. "

Weapon profile.
"Monstrous Scything Talons - You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make one additional attack with this weapon each time i fights."

Again... there is no profile.... anywhere... for a single weapon representing multiple pairs. Only variable points costs for buying them in bulk.

SO. 2 weapons with the same profile.

Lets break down the rule you seem to have trouble reading.

There is a qualifier. Having more than 1 pair.There is a second qualifier: "Each time it fights". There is an effect: +1 attack with this weapon. An attack that has to be made with that specific weapon. If you don't have multiple weapons you cannot meet the qualifier. But if you do have multiple weapons then you have 2 different weapons that each have the same rule, meet the same qualifiers, and provide the same benefit.

Each weapon provides +1a that must be done with the weapon that grants it. 2 pairs. 2 attacks. 3 pairs, 3 attacks.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to be actively ignoring the "with this weapon" and "more than one" and "each time it fights" sentence fragments to be seeing it as anything other than +1 attacks per pair.

its plus one attack with this weapon, not plus one attack with each one of these...

it indicates which profile to use for the single bonus attack granted from having more then one pair of the talons.

 easysauce wrote:
its plus one attack with this weapon, not plus one attack with each one of these...

it indicates which profile to use for the single bonus attack granted from having more then one pair of the talons.

Each weapon has the same rule. so if one profile says Plus one attack with this weapon and the second weapon says +1 attack with this weapon... than....?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
it can make one additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

Not each time it fights with this weapon. Each time it fights. If it's fighting, regardless of which weapon is used, it gets +1 attack with this weapon. How many weapons does it need to get that bonus? 2+. How many of those weapons have that rule? All of them. How many bonus attacks do you get? One for each weapon.

Index Xenos 2
page 139 has a point value for:

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime) 60

Page 141 has a melee weapon entry for Massive scything talons

You can re-roll hit rolls of a 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

Because the only way to buy Massive Scything Talons is as 'Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime)' for 60 pts it is one piece of wargear and the bonus is only applied once

Col_Caffran wrote:
Index Xenos 2
page 139 has a point value for:

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime) 60

Page 141 has a melee weapon entry for Massive scything talons

You can re-roll hit rolls of a 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

Because the only way to buy Massive Scything Talons is as 'Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime)' for 60 pts it is one piece of wargear and the bonus is only applied once

Ok, that's different; I didn't see that entry somehow. It's only +1 Attack in that case.

Col_Caffran wrote:
Index Xenos 2
page 139 has a point value for:

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime) 60

Page 141 has a melee weapon entry for Massive scything talons

You can re-roll hit rolls of a 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

Because the only way to buy Massive Scything Talons is as 'Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime)' for 60 pts it is one piece of wargear and the bonus is only applied once

How you pay points for the wargear has no effect on the wargear rules. You would be much better to argue that you have to pay for it 3 times since the Trygon states it has 3 PAIRS of massive ST. But the rule is clear, its +3 attacks, whether intended or not is debatable.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

Well, there is no fixing a lack of reading comprehension.

The comprehension is good - you just fail to realize that it is not 3 weapons - it is a single weapon.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

Well, there is no fixing a lack of reading comprehension.

The comprehension is good - you just fail to realize that it is not 3 weapons - it is a single weapon.

It is not a single weapon. It is 3 PAIRS of Massive ST. You are allowed to pay 1 price for all three though, but costs have nothing to do with weapon rules.

"Tyranid Point values" is for list building.

"Tyranid Wargear" is rules for playing.

Fragile wrote:

Col_Caffran wrote:
Index Xenos 2
page 139 has a point value for:

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime) 60

Page 141 has a melee weapon entry for Massive scything talons

You can re-roll hit rolls of a 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

Because the only way to buy Massive Scything Talons is as 'Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime)' for 60 pts it is one piece of wargear and the bonus is only applied once

How you pay points for the wargear has no effect on the wargear rules. You would be much better to argue that you have to pay for it 3 times since the Trygon states it has 3 PAIRS of massive ST. But the rule is clear, its +3 attacks, whether intended or not is debatable.

It gives us a good reference for what the weapon actually is. Not paying additional points for additional MST after the second is a dead give away.

Fragile wrote:

How you pay points for the wargear has no effect on the wargear rules. You would be much better to argue that you have to pay for it 3 times since the Trygon states it has 3 PAIRS of massive ST. But the rule is clear, its +3 attacks, whether intended or not is debatable.

Rereading the rule I've come to a revelation, rules as written say

If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

The Trygon and Trygon Prime have 0 pairs of scything talons and 3 pairs of Massive scything talons so it shouldn't get any bonus attacks at all. This needs an FAQ

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

Well, there is no fixing a lack of reading comprehension.

The comprehension is good - you just fail to realize that it is not 3 weapons - it is a single weapon.

It literally says right there its armed with 3, how is that a single weapon. If you were right then there'd be no reason to have multiple pairs, and there'd be no benefit to ever taking multiple pairs on any of the nid units that can do scytals. It makes no sense to specifically say it has 3 if it's one weapon.

But rather than put
Pair of scything talons: rule
Pair of scything talons: rule
Pair of scything talons: rule

They listed the rule once and then tell you it has 3x of those to obviously save space.

My leman Russ can take 2 heavy bolter sponsons and one hull bolter, but heavy bolters are only listed once on its unit card. By your logic all 3 of them combined only shoot equal to the one entry for a single heavy bolter.

Col_Caffran wrote:

Fragile wrote:

How you pay points for the wargear has no effect on the wargear rules. You would be much better to argue that you have to pay for it 3 times since the Trygon states it has 3 PAIRS of massive ST. But the rule is clear, its +3 attacks, whether intended or not is debatable.

Rereading the rule I've come to a revelation, rules as written say

If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

The Trygon and Trygon Prime have 0 pairs of scything talons and 3 pairs of Massive scything talons so it shouldn't get any bonus attacks at all. This needs an FAQ

You, sir, get to write the next FAQ.

RAW the Scything Talons Pairs each grant one extra attack assuming there are more than one pair.
Again, I have no idea what RAI are. It needs an FAQ.

And the sporecyste does not come equiped with a spore node and has no option to take one. Obvious typos and missed entries aside, we all agree that Any of the various versions of ScyTal have the same rule for generating extra attacks.

RAW the only question is how many weapons exist on a model.

The Trygon/prime/mawloc have 3 pairs. 3 weapons with the same rule. Carnifex, warriors, Raveners, Hive Tyrants, shrikes etc etc... can all have 2. 2 weapons with the same rule.

RAW they generate +1 attacks per weapon when they have more than one.

But yeah RAW Trygons get no extra attacks.. as the special rule doesn't actually apply to the weapon equipped =D

LOL, depends on where you read the rule

Fragile wrote:
LOL, depends on where you read the rule

that is true in the wargear section it has the correct wording.


But don't worry guys the Scything Talons get worse in the FW books..

It is either a case that the Barded Heirodule has too many.. or the Scything Heirodule has not enough...

The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

Yeah, I have no idea what he is trying to say.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

Dumb or not, it's the RAW.

Instead of calling it dumb, why don't you disprove my argument?

The profile is for massive scything talons (plural). Just look at the index.

All of the talons are represented by one weapon profile.

Attacking with any number of massive scything talons is attacking with a single weapon profile so you can't split the attacks.

The rule checks how many pairs are on the model and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

Dumb or not, it's the RAW.

Instead of calling it dumb, why don't you disprove my argument?

The profile is for massive scything talons (plural).

All of the talons are represented by one weapon profile.

Attacking with any number of massive scything talons is attacking with a single weapon profile so you can't split the attacks.

The rule checks how many pairs are on the model and grants +1A for each pair on the model.

Because the model comes equiped with 2 or 3 pairs of massive scything talons. there fore, 2 or 3 profiles. "Massive Scything Talons" (plural) is refrenceing the fact that it is a pair. If there was only on proile you would not have multiple and the bonus for having multiple would be impossible.

I.E. It's dumb and you should feel bad.

 Lance845 wrote:
[

Because the model comes equiped with 2 or 3 pairs of massive scything talons. there fore, 2 or 3 profiles. "Massive Scything Talons" (plural) is refrenceing the fact that it is a pair. If there was only on proile you would not have multiple and the bonus for having multiple would be impossible.

I.E. It's dumb and you should feel bad.

The profile does not say 'pair of massive scything talons'. The profile says 'massive scything talons'.

THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

Basically it is semantics on the translation of the English Language.. which is one of the worlds least defined languages

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

However many massive scything talons you have its all a single weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

It's not the road I want to go down, it's the road the rules are telling me to do down.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

In no world would that combine the profiles into a single profile. Since not only is there zero precedence for doing so and no rule that allows it to happen. A sporescyst is equiped with 5 deathspitters. 5 individual profiles for deathspitters. A trygon is equiped with 3 pairs of massive scything talons. 6 individual profiles for massive scything talons.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

In no world would that combine the profiles into a single profile. Since not only is there zero precedence for doing so and no rule that allows it to happen. A sporescyst is equiped with 5 deathspitters. 5 individual profiles for deathspitters. A trygon is equiped with 3 pairs of massive scything talons. 6 individual profiles for massive scything talons.

In this world the profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'massive scything talon' or 'a pair of massive scything talons'.

You use the one profile and adjust the number of attacks per the rules associated with the weapon profile if there is more than one pair.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

In no world would that combine the profiles into a single profile. Since not only is there zero precedence for doing so and no rule that allows it to happen. A sporescyst is equiped with 5 deathspitters. 5 individual profiles for deathspitters. A trygon is equiped with 3 pairs of massive scything talons. 6 individual profiles for massive scything talons.

In this world the profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'massive scything talon' or 'a pair of massive scything talons'.

You use the one profile and adjust the number of attacks per the rules associated with the weapon profile if there is more than one pair.

It is a permission based rule set. Please provide a reference to a rule that allows you to merge multiple weapons into a single profile.

Massive Scything Talons is the name of one weapon. A pair of massive scything talons is 2 weapon profiles. 3 pairs of massive scything talons is 6 weapon profiles.

So a Leman Russ with 2 Las Cannons only gets to shoot them as if they had one of them?
They are listed as plural because each weapon is a pair, much like gauntlets. Having multiple weapons with the same name and rules stack as per RAW, unless your telling me a tank with a set of two heavy flamers only gets 1d6 shots.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

In no world would that combine the profiles into a single profile. Since not only is there zero precedence for doing so and no rule that allows it to happen. A sporescyst is equiped with 5 deathspitters. 5 individual profiles for deathspitters. A trygon is equiped with 3 pairs of massive scything talons. 6 individual profiles for massive scything talons.

In this world the profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'massive scything talon' or 'a pair of massive scything talons'.

You use the one profile and adjust the number of attacks per the rules associated with the weapon profile if there is more than one pair.

It is a permission based rule set. Please provide a reference to a rule that allows you to merge multiple weapons into a single profile.

Massive Scything Talons is the name of one weapon. A pair of massive scything talons is 2 weapon profiles. 3 pairs of massive scything talons is 6 weapon profiles.

I am not merging any profiles. The profile is for 'monstrous scything talons' which is plural.

When you attack with 'monstrous scything talons' you attack with that one weapon profile. You follow the rule on the weapon profile to determine the number of bonus attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
So a Leman Russ with 2 Las Cannons only gets to shoot them as if they had one of them?
They are listed as plural because each weapon is a pair, much like gauntlets. Having multiple weapons with the same name and rules stack as per RAW, unless your telling me a tank with a set of two heavy flamers only gets 1d6 shots.

The profile says 'lascannon' so if you have two lascannons you indeed have 2 separate weapons each with their own profile.

Again. MST is a single profile for a single weapon. having a pair means 2 profiles. 3 pairs is 6. You could name a profile anything. it doesn't matter what it is called.

 Lance845 wrote:
Again. MST is a single profile for a single weapon. having a pair means 2 profiles. 3 pairs is 6. You could name a profile anything. it doesn't matter what it is called.

However many talons you have it's all using the same single weapon profile and attacks as a single weapon.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Again. MST is a single profile for a single weapon. having a pair means 2 profiles. 3 pairs is 6. You could name a profile anything. it doesn't matter what it is called.

However many talons you have it's all using the same single weapon profile and attacks as a single weapon.

Again, provide rules reference or precedent. That never happens. Which is why what you are saying is dumb.

Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.


This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

Dumb or not, it's the RAW.

Instead of calling it dumb, why don't you disprove my argument?

The profile is for massive scything talons (plural). Just look at the index.

All of the talons are represented by one weapon profile.

Attacking with any number of massive scything talons is attacking with a single weapon profile so you can't split the attacks.

The rule checks how many pairs are on the model and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

That is not what the rule says. But your going to repeat yourself ad nauseum until the thread is locked.

 puma713 wrote:
Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.


This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

You are correct except for the bit on splitting attacks. There are restrictions on splitting attacks. You need to have more than one melee weapon in order to split attacks. 'Massive Scything Talons' is one weapon.

Col has joined the thread time to lock it =D

col_impact wrote:


You are correct except for the bit on splitting attacks. There are restrictions on splitting attacks. You need to have more than one melee weapon in order to split attacks. 'Massive Scything Talons' is one weapon.

Wrong. You're conflating splitting attacks and splitting attacks between multiple weapons. The rule on page 182 says "If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible targets as you like."

The "see right" part, is referencing Number of Attacks, where it outlines what it means to have more than one attack.

The next part is where you're getting confused. It is saying that if you have more than one weapon, you can split attacks between the weapons as you wish. The first line above on page 182 gives you permission to split your attacks no matter how many weapons you have.

 puma713 wrote:
Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.


This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

Th rule does not say you need o fight WITH the ScyTal to get the +1 attack. It says you get +1 attack with this weapon each time it fights. Not each time it fights with this weapon.

You could use a tail or anything else for all of your basic profile attacks. You are now fighting. Because you are fighting you get +1 attack that has to be made WITH THAT WEAPON. If you have 3 weapons with the same rule than each weapon gives you an extra attack.

 Lance845 wrote:


Th rule does not say you need o fight WITH the ScyTal to get the +1 attack. It says you get +1 attack with this weapon each time it fights. Not each time it fights with this weapon.

That is just blatantly wrong. The profile says "If the bearer has more than one pair of Massive Scything Talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights." Weapons don't fight. Models do.

 Lance845 wrote:
You could use a tail or anything else for all of your basic profile attacks.

Again wrong. You can only use the tail for one of your attacks. It says so plainly in the tail weapons' profiles. There are no other "basic profile attacks". If you have a melee weapon, that is what you fight with.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are now fighting. Because you are fighting you get +1 attack that has to be made WITH THAT WEAPON. If you have 3 weapons with the same rule than each weapon gives you an extra attack.

This is just not true. I know you'd like it to work that way, but it does not. What gives you permission to get +1 attack? It is a rule that tells you to check to see if you have multiple pairs. That is the only qualifying statement to get +1 attack. You don't check 3 times for the same qualifier. I understand where you're coming from. You're saying, since I have 3 pairs of talons, I get to check 3 times for an extra attack. But that's simply not the case. col_impact is right in this case. "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon with a special rule that says if you have more than 1 pair, you get +1 attack. That is RAW. It is why every passage that references "Massive Scything Talons" does so in the singular case, "weapon".

I am a Tyranids player too, if it matters.

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


You are correct except for the bit on splitting attacks. There are restrictions on splitting attacks. You need to have more than one melee weapon in order to split attacks. 'Massive Scything Talons' is one weapon.

Wrong. You're conflating splitting attacks and splitting attacks between multiple weapons. The rule on page 182 says "If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible targets as you like."

The "see right" part, is referencing Number of Attacks, where it outlines what it means to have more than one attack.

The next part is where you're getting confused. It is saying that if you have more than one weapon, you can split attacks between the weapons as you wish. The first line above on page 182 gives you permission to split your attacks no matter how many weapons you have.

No. You are getting confused which we can you see because you misquoted the rule (see the red highlight below).

Here is the quote.

"If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible target units as you wish."

Here is the other quote.

"If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled."

The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

This is just a minor correction.

Massive Scything Talons is a single weapon. A Trygon Prime has three of them. The fact they are purchased in one step is a red herring with no bearing on their function.

The model has no other melee options to swap them out for and they could (and should have it seems) been included in their base cost.

col_impact wrote:

The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

This is just a minor correction.

Yeah, I was referring to splitting attacks between two different units. That's the only option to split attacks. Of course I wasn't referring splitting attacks to a single unit. That makes no sense. You don't split single weapon's attacks. We are in agreement here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Massive Scything Talons is a single weapon. A Trygon Prime has three of them. The fact they are purchased in one step is a red herring with no bearing on their function.

I disagree. If I get +2 attacks from wargear or I get +3 attacks (or more) from wargear, I would expect the wargear to cost a bit different from one version to the next, wouldn't you? A cannon that fires 3 shots is worth more than one that fires 2, no? The language of the wargear is what is important. They make no distinction between two pairs, or more because having more than two pair doesn't matter. To the rules, it doesn't matter if the Trygon has 2 pair or 50 pairs. It still gets +1 attack because you only check for the multiple pairs once. And you only choose Massive Scything Talons to fight with. You don't choose 50 Massive Scything Talons to fight with. You choose the weapon, "Massive Scything Talons", and then you check to see how many pairs you have to activate the weapon's special rules.

 Eldarain wrote:
The model has no other melee options to swap them out for and they could (and should have it seems) been included in their base cost.

Why? No other model outside of special characters have their weapons included in their base costs.

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


Th rule does not say you need o fight WITH the ScyTal to get the +1 attack. It says you get +1 attack with this weapon each time it fights. Not each time it fights with this weapon.

That is just blatantly wrong. The profile says "If the bearer has more than one pair of Massive Scything Talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights." Weapons don't fight. Models do.

 Lance845 wrote:
You could use a tail or anything else for all of your basic profile attacks.

Again wrong. You can only use the tail for one of your attacks. It says so plainly in the tail weapons' profiles. There are no other "basic profile attacks". If you have a melee weapon, that is what you fight with.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are now fighting. Because you are fighting you get +1 attack that has to be made WITH THAT WEAPON. If you have 3 weapons with the same rule than each weapon gives you an extra attack.

This is just not true. I know you'd like it to work that way, but it does not. What gives you permission to get +1 attack? It is a rule that tells you to check to see if you have multiple pairs. That is the only qualifying statement to get +1 attack. You don't check 3 times for the same qualifier. I understand where you're coming from. You're saying, since I have 3 pairs of talons, I get to check 3 times for an extra attack. But that's simply not the case. col_impact is right in this case. "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon with a special rule that says if you have more than 1 pair, you get +1 attack. That is RAW. It is why every passage that references "Massive Scything Talons" does so in the singular case, "weapon".

I am a Tyranids player too, if it matters.

First. not all tail weapons use one and only 1 attack.

Second, you get 1 extra attack WITH THIS WEAPON -1 EXTRA ATTACK THAT MUST BE MADE WITH THIS WEAPON- each time it fights. As you say, models fight not weapons. Each time the model fights it gets 1 extra attack that must be made with that weapon. Not a +1 to the a characteristic that can be used any way it sees fit. +1 attack that has to use the Scy Tal.

3rd, there is a rule that has 2 qualifiers and 1 efffect

Qualifier 1 have more than 1 pair of scy tal. Qualifier 2, the model has to fight.Effect +1 attack that must be made with that weapon.

If you have 2 weapons and they both have the same rule they meet requirements 1 and 2 when the model fights and each weapon profile triggers the effect.

A repeat of an earlier post.

Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c

First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.

Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.

Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.

 Lance845 wrote:
*snip*

I am not going to go around and around with you like col_impact will. I do not agree with you and that's okay. It's clear that neither camp is going to change their minds. This is the point that we agree to disagree and wait on a FAQ, which will be coming out soon enough. Until then, I will be playing my Trygon Primes with +1 attack, for a total of 7 attacks.

col_impact wrote:
The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

Except the Trygon has 3 pairs of them.

I do believe that is the other thing with Trygons and this question.. if it is +3 that is a stupid amount of attacks

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

Except the Trygon has 3 pairs of them.

'Massive scything talons' is the single melee weapon profile. The Trygon has a single melee weapon profile.

I know what I think the rule is trying to say, however it's very unclear and further compounds the unclarity by saying

If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons...

scything talons is a piece of wargear and Trygons don't get access to it so RAW Trygons don't get any extra attacks at all. It needs an FAQ the rule is unclear

So how many extra attacks would a model armed with 2 chainswords get? One?

Col_Caffran wrote:
I know what I think the rule is trying to say, however it's very unclear and further compounds the unclarity by saying

If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons...

scything talons is a piece of wargear and Trygons don't get access to it so RAW Trygons don't get any extra attacks at all. It needs an FAQ the rule is unclear

Since your being pedantic about it. Firstly, that was already brought up and dismissed a page back. Secondly you need to reread the rule on the Trygon's page. It clearly says does not say what you just wrote. The Trygon Prime is the one with the wording issue. And the wargear in the back is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

Except the Trygon has 3 pairs of them.

'Massive scything talons' is the single melee weapon profile. The Trygon has a single melee weapon profile.

The profile has nothing to do with the number of weapons it has.

Fragile wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

Except the Trygon has 3 pairs of them.

'Massive scything talons' is the single melee weapon profile. The Trygon has a single melee weapon profile.

The profile has nothing to do with the number of weapons it has.

It's so weird that last edition he was trying to say Guilliman's sword and fist combo were two separate weapons with the same profile, and now even though he sees the fact that a datasheet gives a model 3 weapons, he wants to treat them as 1. 0 credibility for me.

The datasheet gives the model 3 weapons. Each weapon has the same profile. It is printed once for reference. Each weapon gets an attack every time the model fights. +3 attacks.

Id say its +1 attack simply because you buy the scything talons for one point value and is listed as "2 or more sets" So RAW it IS 1 weapon.

Servbot43 wrote:
Id say its +1 attack simply because you buy the scything talons for one point value and is listed as "2 or more sets" So RAW it IS 1 weapon.

So when you buy a pair of lightning claws you are buying one weapon.

Here's the thing. The profile is not for "2 or more pairs," it's for "1 pair," so no matter how many points you pay, no matter how you buy all 3 pairs, you have 3 sets of the profile.

So are you trying to say that because "Monstrous Boneswords" are plural you have 2 profiles? Its the same thing they are condensing all pairs into a single profile because the benefit doesnt stack.

Servbot43 wrote:
Basically yes

So having a pair of lightning claws doesn't allow an extra attack with them. Because you only have 1 weapon. Even though you bought a pair.

The text for lightning claws specifies that if you bought an extra one you get +1a in the same manner that talons state that if you have 2+ pairs you get +1a

 puma713 wrote:
Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.


This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

This is pretty obvious...I agree with your assessment.

Servbot43 wrote:
The text for lightning claws specifies that if you bought an extra one you get +1a in the same manner that talons state that if you have 2+ pairs you get +1a

So you DO buy two weapons when you buy two lightning claws. I bought 3 pairs of scything talons when I paid points for the Trygon's weapons.

Reread the talons. You get +1 attack "with this weapon." You have 3 weapons, each saying that. Each weapon is "1 pair." you have "1 pair" x 3. +3 attacks. There's one profile for each pair, there are three profiles, you get the benefits of each. How many attacks does a model with 1 attack base equipped with 2 chainswords get? The answer is 3, even though each chainsword has the same profile.

Lightning claws say "with them" - in reference to getting 1 extra attack with your lightning claws total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.


This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

This is pretty obvious...I agree with your assessment.

Why would it need to state "when it attacks"? You select a unit to *fight*. I select the Trygon to fight, i see that it has 3 weapons telling me to do something when it fights. You are specifically allowed to split attacks between weapons (I.E. a marine could make 2 attacks with a fist and 1 with a lightning claw if it has both and has 3 attacks).

Here's the thing: It's not "you get an extra attack," it's "you get an extra attack *with this weapon,*" of which weapons you possess 3, each one telling you to take another attack with it.

Reread the talons. You get +1 attack "with this weapon." You have 3 weapons, each saying that. Each weapon is "1 pair." you have "1 pair" x 3. +3 attacks. There's one profile for each pair, there are three profiles, you get the benefits of each. How many attacks does a model with 1 attack base equipped with 2 chainswords get? The answer is 3, even though each chainsword has the same profile.

The profile for talons is (any number of pairs) so its one weapon representing all of its legs with a single point cost.

Your example is completely different because you are buying separate and distinct weapons with the same profile.

Servbot43 wrote:

Reread the talons. You get +1 attack "with this weapon." You have 3 weapons, each saying that. Each weapon is "1 pair." you have "1 pair" x 3. +3 attacks. There's one profile for each pair, there are three profiles, you get the benefits of each. How many attacks does a model with 1 attack base equipped with 2 chainswords get? The answer is 3, even though each chainsword has the same profile.

The profile for talons is (any number of pairs) so its one weapon representing all of its legs with a single point cost.

Your example is completely different because you are buying separate and distinct weapons with the same profile.

Your not using a profile. You using a weapon cost example.

So you think the base weapons for the trygon cost 180 pts?

I think your conflating the rules for list building with the rules for playing the game.

I'm saying you buy it once, its listed in the wargear as "2+ pairs", so to me it would appear to be one weapon that represents 6 arms.

Servbot43 wrote:
I'm saying you buy it once, its listed in the wargear as "2+ pairs", so to me it would appear to be one weapon that represents 6 arms.

It is not listed in the wargear as 2+ pairs. On the 2 pages that list all of the tyranid wargear options at no point is there a profile for anything but a single Scything Talons.

Further, on the page for points costs it says (two pairs) (Hive Tyrant) (two or more pairs) (trygon and trygon prime).

Since there is no such thing as a weapon profile called "Monstrous Scything Talons (Hive Tyrant)" I assume anything inside ( ) specifies what that cost is for. Therefore, you pay the one price for the however many weapon profiles is says inside ( ) for who ever it says you can get them for.

And Mawlocs get 3 pairs of Scything Talons. There is no special listing for Mawlocs cause Scytal cost 0 points so the cost for the Mawloc is exactly the same no matter how many it has. Mawloc has 3 pairs. What about him?

I would assume that any listing of "X has Y pairs of monstrous/massive/scything talons" would be handled the same way as all of the talon weapons have the same special rule

Servbot43 wrote:
I would assume that any listing of "X has Y pairs of monstrous/massive/scything talons" would be handled the same way as all of the talon weapons have the same special rule

So you assume that any listing of "x number of y wargear" on a dataslate means that the unit has a single profile for a single piece of wargear that is consider to count as whatever x is?

So "3 pairs of scything talons" is a single profile with one listing of it's rules for range strength ap dmg and special rules.

And "5 deathspitters" on the sporecyst is a single profile with one listing for a "18" assault 3 gun" etc etc...

Am I getting you correctly?

I guess the way they list ranged weapons does confuse this

Servbot43 wrote:
I guess the way they list ranged weapons does confuse this

No, it doesn't. Because it's not confusing. You have no permission to combine weapon profiles. If a model has 3 of weapon it has 3 weapon profiles that all read exactly the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, go read the Scytal weapon profile. Do the math on it and work out what its special rules benefit is.

Then do it again for the second profile.

Then do it again for the 3rd.

The condescension would be a little more appropriate if this wasn't a four page thread about the way to interpret it.

As far as if the special rules are cumulative I have no idea due to the difference in wording between talons and every other weapon.

Lance do you propose spending 90 points to get 3 pairs (single weapon cost)of MST? or do you propose spending 60 points - the same as 2 would cost?

Sorry if you are reading condescension into my written words that are incapable of carrying any inflection.

I was literally requesting that you do those things.

This has been going on for 4 pages not because the rules are written unclearly (they are not, it's a single very clear sentence with a very obvious outcome). The 4 pages is because people cannot believe the benefit is actually that good.

Fair. Again, it may not be RAI that each pair generates it's own +1 attack. But it is RAW and no trying to justify it any other way changes it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lance do you propose spending 90 points to get 3 pairs (single weapon cost)of MST? or do you propose spending 60 points - the same as 2 would cost?

I propose you pay the points they tell you to pay for the amount of wargear they tell you you get on the model they tell you you get it on. Points costs are not profiles. Profiles are on the next page.

 Lance845 wrote:

This has been going on for 4 pages not because the rules are written unclearly (they are not, it's a single very clear sentence with a very obvious outcome). The 4 pages is because people cannot believe the benefit is actually that good.

Fair. Again, it may not be RAI that each pair generates it's own +1 attack. But it is RAW and no trying to justify it any other way changes it.

This is not true. You saying it matter-of-factly does not make it true. If it was as clear-cut as you say, yakface wouldn't have bothered to add it to the FAQ submission to GW, and there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate on it. You saying, "it may not be RAI that each pair generates its own +1 attack" indicates that you understand there is room for other interpretations. When there are ambiguous rules, or ambiguous wording, you should be prepared to take the least advantageous reading, at least on the tabletop.

And as for people "not believing the benefit is that good" is pretty silly. We're talking about a difference of 2 attacks. They either have 7 attacks or they have 9. It's not that people can't wrap their head around the amazing bonus of +2 attacks, it's that there are people that just don't agree with you.

 Lance845 wrote:
Sorry if you are reading condescension into my written words that are incapable of carrying any inflection.

I was literally requesting that you do those things.

This has been going on for 4 pages not because the rules are written unclearly (they are not, it's a single very clear sentence with a very obvious outcome). The 4 pages is because people cannot believe the benefit is actually that good.

Fair. Again, it may not be RAI that each pair generates it's own +1 attack. But it is RAW and no trying to justify it any other way changes it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lance do you propose spending 90 points to get 3 pairs (single weapon cost)of MST? or do you propose spending 60 points - the same as 2 would cost?

I propose you pay the points they tell you to pay for the amount of wargear they tell you you get on the model they tell you you get it on. Points costs are not profiles. Profiles are on the next page.

It's ether 3 separate weapons like you say it is and you spend 90 points. Or its 2 or more pairs for 60 points which has a single profile. You make the call. That is how all the other weapons in this game work.

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

This has been going on for 4 pages not because the rules are written unclearly (they are not, it's a single very clear sentence with a very obvious outcome). The 4 pages is because people cannot believe the benefit is actually that good.

Fair. Again, it may not be RAI that each pair generates it's own +1 attack. But it is RAW and no trying to justify it any other way changes it.

This is not true. You saying it matter-of-factly does not make it true. If it was as clear-cut as you say, yakface wouldn't have bothered to add it to the FAQ submission to GW, and there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate on it. You saying, "it may not be RAI that each pair generates its own +1 attack" indicates that you understand there is room for other interpretations. When there are ambiguous rules, or ambiguous wording, you should be prepared to take the least advantageous reading, at least on the tabletop.

And as for people "not believing the benefit is that good" is pretty silly. We're talking about a difference of 2 attacks. They either have 7 attacks or they have 9. It's not that people can't wrap their head around the amazing bonus of +2 attacks, it's that there are people that just don't agree with you.

Lets break down the sentence structure of the rule then.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

So, subject: "The bearer"
Qualifier "if/has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons"
Effect: "it (the subject = the bearer) can make 1 additional attack with this weapon" read, 1 additional attack that has to be made with the profile you are reading.
Timing trigger: "each time it (the subject = the bearer) fights"

That is very very clear. It's very simple english. Each time the bearer fights, if it has more than 1 pair of scytal, it gets to make a bonus attack that has to use the profile with this rule.

Now... if you have more than one pair... you have more than one profile.
So read the second profile.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

Oh look! It says the same thing.

At no point in any of that does it tell you you need to attack WITH the scytal to get the extra attack. It only says that the effect triggers when the bearer fights.

Does the bearer have 3 pairs? Well, better read the weapon profile of the 3rd weapon then.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

Well look at that! It's the same!

I guess thats +3 attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's ether 3 separate weapons like you say it is and you spend 90 points. Or its 2 or more pairs for 60 points which has a single profile. You make the call. That is how all the other weapons in this game work.

Again, show me a weapon profile for "Mounstrous Scything Talons (Hve Tyrant)". It doesn't exist. Because anything in () stipulates what/how much you are buying and who you are buying it for. Not the profile it references. Point costs are not profiles. This argument is dumb.

 Lance845 wrote:
*snip*

I'm not saying I don't see valid points in your argument. I do. I just don't agree with you. There are two reasons (besides the reasons I have already laid out) that I don't agree with you. One, is you are paying for "sets" of Scything Talons, whether it is two or more. If the points value said Trygon and Trygon Prime (three sets) 60 points, I would tend to agree with you. But it doesn't. It says (two or more sets), indicating there is no difference, points-wise between two sets and three sets, or two sets and ten sets. If there is no difference points-wise, then it is hard to imagine there is a difference rules-wise, since that is not how 40K works, in general.

Secondly, your interpretation, applied to other units that are worded similarly, gives them much greater advantages than it appears they should have. A trygon getting +2 attacks is not nearly as devastating as a Chaos Daemon Prince getting +6 attacks, which is what it would get under your interpretation. I am not going to go through each unit entry in the game, but the Daemon Prince is worded similarly to the Trygon and it is clear that you are only supposed to receive +3 attacks rather than +6.

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
*snip*

I'm not saying I don't see valid points in your argument. I do. I just don't agree with you. There are two reasons (besides the reasons I have already laid out) that I don't agree with you. One, is you are paying for "sets" of Scything Talons, whether it is two or more. If the points value said Trygon and Trygon Prime (three sets) 60 points, I would tend to agree with you. But it doesn't. It says (two or more sets), indicating there is no difference, points-wise between two sets and three sets, or two sets and ten sets. If there is no difference points-wise, then it is hard to imagine there is a difference rules-wise, since that is not how 40K works, in general.

And I see this. But, you are looking at that points value in a vacume. What that says (for no real good reason) is that it doesn't matter how many pairs of scytal a trygon or trygon prime gets it always costs the same for those specific models. Sounds bonkers. I agree. It could be 100 pairs. Except that those models donot have permission to buy scytal. They come equiped with a very specific number and they have no permission to change them out for anything else. So whether trygons pay the same price for 3 pairs as they do for 100 is not a balance issues because they can never have anythng other than 3.

Secondly, your interpretation, applied to other units that are worded similarly, gives them much greater advantages than it appears they should have. A trygon getting +2 attacks is not nearly as devastating as a Chaos Daemon Prince getting +6 attacks, which is what it would get under your interpretation. I am not going to go through each unit entry in the game, but the Daemon Prince is worded similarly to the Trygon and it is clear that you are only supposed to receive +3 attacks rather than +6.

I would need a quote of the demon princes weapon profile to comment on it. I don't own the chaos book. show me the rule for the weapon in question and I would be happy to go over this point with you.

 Lance845 wrote:

I would need a quote of the demon princes weapon profile to comment on it. I don't own the chaos book. show me the rule for the weapon in question and I would be happy to go over this point with you.

It says

Malefic talons: Each time a model fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. A model armed with two sets of Malefic talons can make 3 additional attacks with them instead.

Now, it is obvious that they are only extending +3 attacks to the model, hence the "instead". But, by your interpretation, I split my attacks between both sets of Malefic Claws, giving me +6 attacks.

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

I would need a quote of the demon princes weapon profile to comment on it. I don't own the chaos book. show me the rule for the weapon in question and I would be happy to go over this point with you.

It says

Malefic talons: Each time a model fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. A model armed with two sets of Malefic talons can make 3 additional attacks with them instead.

Now, it is obvious that they are only extending +3 attacks to the model, hence the "instead". But, by your interpretation, I split my attacks between both sets of Malefic Claws, giving me +6 attacks.

No it doesn't.

The rule does not say "each time a model fights with malefic talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."
It says each time a model fights. what it fights with is irrelevant and has no bearing on the number of additional attacks the model gets. The additional attacks have to use the malefic claws profile. any other attacks the model gets can use any other profile available to it.

When I first read the trygon rules I assumed the bonus attack with the talons was to make up for the mandatory tail attack

 Lance845 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

I would need a quote of the demon princes weapon profile to comment on it. I don't own the chaos book. show me the rule for the weapon in question and I would be happy to go over this point with you.

It says

Malefic talons: Each time a model fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. A model armed with two sets of Malefic talons can make 3 additional attacks with them instead.

Now, it is obvious that they are only extending +3 attacks to the model, hence the "instead". But, by your interpretation, I split my attacks between both sets of Malefic Claws, giving me +6 attacks.

No it doesn't.

The rule does not say "each time a model fights with malefic talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."
It says each time a model fights. what it fights with is irrelevant and has no bearing on the number of additional attacks the model gets. The additional attacks have to use the malefic claws profile. any other attacks the model gets can use any other profile available to it.

I'm not sure we can have a relevant rules conversation together. What it fights with is absolutely relevant. It's how the model has access to the additional attacks in the first place. You don't get +1 attack just for having malefic talons. You have to use them to access their special rules. Furthermore, there are no other profiles available to the model if it has two sets of malefic talons. All attacks will use malefic talons. If I have two sets, per your interpretation, I can activate each set for half of my attacks, giving me the special rule twice.

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

I would need a quote of the demon princes weapon profile to comment on it. I don't own the chaos book. show me the rule for the weapon in question and I would be happy to go over this point with you.

It says

Malefic talons: Each time a model fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. A model armed with two sets of Malefic talons can make 3 additional attacks with them instead.

Now, it is obvious that they are only extending +3 attacks to the model, hence the "instead". But, by your interpretation, I split my attacks between both sets of Malefic Claws, giving me +6 attacks.

No it doesn't.

The rule does not say "each time a model fights with malefic talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."
It says each time a model fights. what it fights with is irrelevant and has no bearing on the number of additional attacks the model gets. The additional attacks have to use the malefic claws profile. any other attacks the model gets can use any other profile available to it.

I'm not sure we can have a relevant rules conversation together. What it fights with is absolutely relevant. It's how the model has access to the additional attacks in the first place. Furthermore, there are no other profiles available to the model if it has two sets of malefic talons. All attacks will use malefic talons. If I have two sets, per your interpretation, I can activate each set for half of my attacks, giving me the special rule twice.

Ok.

So first, I dont know the profiles and options so I am going to just make some shot up.

Lets pretend demon princes have a attack characteristic of 4 and can either have a claw and a sword or 2 claws.

In the claw and sword scenario the demon prince can make all 4a attacks with the sword profile. The claws rule stipulates that when it fights it gets +1 attacks that have to use the claw. So a try attack shows up that has to use the claws profile. What weapon is used for the 4 attacks is irrelevant to the claws bonus. The bonus triggers when the model fights. Not when it fights with claws.

So if it has 2 claws it doesn't need to divide its attacks between one claw and the other because the bonus attacks kick in regardless. The model fights = bonus attacks.

That being said, "instead" is ill defined on the claws. Instead of what? Instead of the one bonus attack from 1 claw? That interpretation gives you 6 attacks with each claw replacing its 1 attack for 3. Or instead of the 2 separate attacks from each claw? Now trading 2 bonus attacks for 3. This weapon profile, as quoted to me, does require a faq. Because the language is unclear.

The scytals have no such issue. Everything in their rule is well defined.

 Lance845 wrote:


Ok.

So first, I dont know the profiles and options so I am going to just make some shot up.

Lets pretend demon princes have a attack characteristic of 4 and can either have a claw and a sword or 2 claws.

In the claw and sword scenario the demon prince can make all 4a attacks with the sword profile. The claws rule stipulates that when it fights it gets +1 attacks that have to use the claw. So a try attack shows up that has to use the claws profile. What weapon is used for the 4 attacks is irrelevant to the claws bonus. The bonus triggers when the model fights. Not when it fights with claws.

In my opinion, this is incorrect. The rule for the claws says "Malefic talons: Each time this model fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon." If you choose to use all 4 attacks with the sword, there is no +1 attack simply for having the claws. You must use the claws to activate their rules. This is a simple premise. We must agree on this before we can have intelligent discourse about any other parts of the rules. You must "use" a weapon to benefit from its rules.

Edit: I understand what you're saying. You're saying that no matter what I choose, I get +1 attack with the talons. It is giving me permission to make an "extra attack" on top of any other attack I choose. I can see how you can read that into the weapon. I don't agree that is how it is played, but I can see where your reading comes from.

 Lance845 wrote:

So if it has 2 claws it doesn't need to divide its attacks between one claw and the other because the bonus attacks kick in regardless. The model fights = bonus attacks.

Again, you must use the weapon to benefit from its rules. If I only use 1 set of malefic claws, I only get their special rules activated once. You're asserting that you must use the three sets of Scything Talons to receive their bonus activation three times. Otherwise, you're asserting that you receive +3 attacks simply for having the Scything Talons. And now you are trying to say that you don't even have to use the weapon more than once. You just "get' extra attacks. This is ludicrous. If you want to activate 3 sets of one weapon, you must use 3 sets of one weapon.

This is exactly what the "chainsword" argument is based on. If I have two chainswords, I must split my attacks between both of them to receive the extra attack from having two chainswords. You do not get extra attacks simply by having two chainswords. You must use them to activate their special rules. Similarly, your argument is based on the fact that the Trygon is using three separate sets of Scything Talons to make its attacks, therefore giving it +3 attacks because you're activating its special rule 3 times. If this is not what you're saying, then I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

If all of these things are true, then the same logic applies to the Daemon Prince, giving him +6 attacks for the same reasons.



Bottom line is I believe there are a few questions here that need to be FAQed and we won't have a clear answer until the FAQ is released. I didn't mean to get dragged back into this thread, especially since I don't think anything is going to be resolved by us few.

"This weapon" is "massive scything talons" not "pair of massive scything talons" so no matter how many pairs of massive scything talons a model has it is still a single weapon profile.

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


Ok.

So first, I dont know the profiles and options so I am going to just make some shot up.

Lets pretend demon princes have a attack characteristic of 4 and can either have a claw and a sword or 2 claws.

In the claw and sword scenario the demon prince can make all 4a attacks with the sword profile. The claws rule stipulates that when it fights it gets +1 attacks that have to use the claw. So a try attack shows up that has to use the claws profile. What weapon is used for the 4 attacks is irrelevant to the claws bonus. The bonus triggers when the model fights. Not when it fights with claws.

In my opinion, this is incorrect. The rule for the claws says "Malefic talons: Each time this model fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon." If you choose to use all 4 attacks with the sword, there is no +1 attack simply for having the claws. You must use the claws to activate their rules. This is a simple premise. We must agree on this before we can have intelligent discourse about any other parts of the rules. You must "use" a weapon to benefit from its rules.

That isn't stated anywhere. If that were the case, Chaos Lords on Juggernauts couldn't use the Juggernaut attacks EVER because they don't get to choose to use those attacks.

You look at the rules of the wargear, and follow those. Things that say "you get 1 attack with this weapon each time this model fights" give you an attack with that weapon whether or not you choose to voluntarily use it outside of that rule. It's a plain reading.

I also agree that +3 attacks may not be RAI, but I'm 100% convinced it's RAW as of right now, based on a plain reading of the wargear rules. I used to disagree. Really, I thought it was 1 attack after glancing at it, then I read it again and now I know the rules are telling me my Trygon gets 3 extra attacks based on the wording. If it wasn't their intent, they'll clear it up soon enough, but that's what they wrote for now.

Jacksmiles wrote:


That isn't stated anywhere. If that were the case, Chaos Lords on Juggernauts couldn't use the Juggernaut attacks EVER because they don't get to choose to use those attacks.
.

This is a good example. This makes it more clear that a weapon's profile is used whether it is "activated" or not. I'm still not entirely convinced that it triggers 3 times for a Trygon, but this has shifted my interpretation of the RAW for weapon profiles.

 puma713 wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:


That isn't stated anywhere. If that were the case, Chaos Lords on Juggernauts couldn't use the Juggernaut attacks EVER because they don't get to choose to use those attacks.
.

This is a good example. This makes it more clear that a weapon's profile is used whether it is "activated" or not. I'm still not entirely convinced that it triggers 3 times for a Trygon, but this has shifted my interpretation of the RAW for weapon profiles.

Cool. So getting back to the claws. The confusing part is the "instead". They don't define it. It could be 3 instead of 1 or it could be 3 instead of each weapons 1 since it requires both profiles to trigger anyway.

Again scytals have no such wording though. They just flat out grant the attacks.

For the sake of reasonableness I would request the chaos player play it as 3 attacks total until faqed. But there is an equally valid argument that it is in fact 6 attacks because they seem to have ended their sentence half way through.

To those saying no matter how many pairs of Scything Talons a model is armed with, it counts as a single weapon; how then does a model with two chainswords work?
There is no rule saying that they are a single pair no matter how many there are. Each weapon's (scything talons) bonuses kick in as long as they are equipped with those weapons. There are too many other instances in the books contradicting this to assume that just because you bought them at a group discount, that they count as a single weapon.
Now, I believe RAI is for a single attack, but that is not what the RAW states.

RAW states 'massive scything talons'.

No matter how many you have, its a single weapon.

If the rule said 'massive scything talon' or 'pair of massive scything talons' then it would be different.

But as it stands, any number of 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon with a single weapon profile.

There are countless examples of this. For example Wraiths have a single weapon with a single weapon profile called 'vicious claws'. They have 6 claws on the model but its a single weapon.

Does the Wraith say it has 3x vicious claws on it's wargear summary at the top of it's datasheet entry.

 Eldarain wrote:
Does the Wraith say it has 3x vicious claws on it's wargear summary at the top of it's datasheet entry.

Nope.

When you purchase a pair of massive scything talons you aren't purchasing a weapon if its beyond your first pair. The weapon's name is 'massive scything talons' not 'pair of massive scything talons'.

No matter how many pairs you have or purchase you still have the single weapon 'massive scything talons'.

The option to purchase an additional pair beyond your first is an UPGRADE that will grant a +1 A to the single weapon known as 'massive scything talons'.

That's the RAW. And it's also the RAI.

I would be satisfied with any situation that results in two pairs giving one bonus attack overall and three pairs giving two overall, with all attacks coming from the talons. There should be a difference between two pairs and three pairs in the game and the extras should always originate with the talons. But, hey this is 40k and it will work one way for Imps and another for Xenos because that's how it always ends up going.....

 Lance845 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

This has been going on for 4 pages not because the rules are written unclearly (they are not, it's a single very clear sentence with a very obvious outcome). The 4 pages is because people cannot believe the benefit is actually that good.

Fair. Again, it may not be RAI that each pair generates it's own +1 attack. But it is RAW and no trying to justify it any other way changes it.

This is not true. You saying it matter-of-factly does not make it true. If it was as clear-cut as you say, yakface wouldn't have bothered to add it to the FAQ submission to GW, and there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate on it. You saying, "it may not be RAI that each pair generates its own +1 attack" indicates that you understand there is room for other interpretations. When there are ambiguous rules, or ambiguous wording, you should be prepared to take the least advantageous reading, at least on the tabletop.

And as for people "not believing the benefit is that good" is pretty silly. We're talking about a difference of 2 attacks. They either have 7 attacks or they have 9. It's not that people can't wrap their head around the amazing bonus of +2 attacks, it's that there are people that just don't agree with you.

Lets break down the sentence structure of the rule then.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

So, subject: "The bearer"
Qualifier "if/has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons"
Effect: "it (the subject = the bearer) can make 1 additional attack with this weapon" read, 1 additional attack that has to be made with the profile you are reading.
Timing trigger: "each time it (the subject = the bearer) fights"

That is very very clear. It's very simple english. Each time the bearer fights, if it has more than 1 pair of scytal, it gets to make a bonus attack that has to use the profile with this rule.

Now... if you have more than one pair... you have more than one profile.
So read the second profile.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

Oh look! It says the same thing.

At no point in any of that does it tell you you need to attack WITH the scytal to get the extra attack. It only says that the effect triggers when the bearer fights.

Does the bearer have 3 pairs? Well, better read the weapon profile of the 3rd weapon then.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

Well look at that! It's the same!

I guess thats +3 attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's ether 3 separate weapons like you say it is and you spend 90 points. Or its 2 or more pairs for 60 points which has a single profile. You make the call. That is how all the other weapons in this game work.

Again, show me a weapon profile for "Mounstrous Scything Talons (Hve Tyrant)". It doesn't exist. Because anything in () stipulates what/how much you are buying and who you are buying it for. Not the profile it references. Point costs are not profiles. This argument is dumb.

The argument isn't dumb - the data sheet tells you to buy 3 sets of massive scything talons - Not two or more scything talons. Which costs 90 points. 2 or more scything talons is obviously it's own melle profile which tells you exactly how to use it from the single weapon profile. Which says if you have more than one pair you get plus one attack every time you fight with it (obviously the single profile wouldn't say this if they intend for each talon to give you 1 attack beyond the first). How hard would it be really to say that in the weapon profile if that's what they intended? "For every additional set beyond the first you get an additional attack every time this model fights with this weapon." There is absolutely 0 chance that you are fighting with 3 separate weapons and not paying for 3 separate weapons. So at least until there is a clarification and you want to get +3 attacks - a fair solution is to pay 90 points for it - which you wont do - because it is expensive as crap.

Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

My argument is proven by the rules. You can ignore it but that isn't helping your argument. And it makes you look like you have conceded that my argument is correct.

Rather than just say it's nonsense, prove it's nonsense. Or else my argument wins as unchallenged.

"Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile.

Additional pairs of massive scything talons are an upgrade to the single weapon.

You have zero proof that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon and not an upgrade. The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons' not 'pair of massive scything talons'.

@xenomancers. (2 or more) is also not a weapon profile. Otherwise please, show me where you get the rules for a profile called (2 or more).

The argument is very dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

My argument is proven by the rules. You can ignore it but that isn't helping your argument. And it makes you look like you have conceded that my argument is correct.

Rather than just say it's nonsense, prove it's nonsense. Or else my argument wins as unchallenged.

"Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile.

Additional pairs of massive scything talons are an upgrade to the single weapon.

You have zero proof that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon and not an upgrade. The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons' not 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Think what you want lol. Say you win unchallenged. Bask in your own self righteous delusion. More power to ya. You didn't answer my question though.

 Lance845 wrote:
@xenomancers. (2 or more) is also not a weapon profile. Otherwise please, show me where you get the rules for a profile called (2 or more).

The argument is very dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

My argument is proven by the rules. You can ignore it but that isn't helping your argument. And it makes you look like you have conceded that my argument is correct.

Rather than just say it's nonsense, prove it's nonsense. Or else my argument wins as unchallenged.

"Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile.

Additional pairs of massive scything talons are an upgrade to the single weapon.

You have zero proof that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon and not an upgrade. The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons' not 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Think what you want lol. Say you win unchallenged. Bask in your own self righteous delusion. More power to ya. You didn't answer my question though.

You can't just say an argument is dumb. You have to prove it.

What's your question?

If you are asking about the Sporocyst, deathspitter is the name of the weapon profile. It's singular. So the Sporocyst has 5 of them equipped, obviously.

Face it, not only is my argument RAW, it is also RAI.

The purchase of additional pairs of massive scything talons beyond the first is merely an UPGRADE on the 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile.

You have zero proof that 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon. There is no profile that is called 'pair of massive scything talons'.

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

See I believe the RAW fits better with the +3 argument..

I just personally feel +3A feels like too many and that RAI was for only +1.. because the sentence was structured differently to chainswords

the use of plurals means nothing in this case as they are referring to a paired item. If it wasn't pluraled you would get the confusion you currently have in the IA book.. where it is referenced as Scything talon.. and there is an error where one of the Heriodules either has too many of not enough of them

 Lance845 wrote:
@xenomancers. (2 or more) is also not a weapon profile. Otherwise please, show me where you get the rules for a profile called (2 or more).

The argument is very dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

My argument is proven by the rules. You can ignore it but that isn't helping your argument. And it makes you look like you have conceded that my argument is correct.

Rather than just say it's nonsense, prove it's nonsense. Or else my argument wins as unchallenged.

"Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile.

Additional pairs of massive scything talons are an upgrade to the single weapon.

You have zero proof that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon and not an upgrade. The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons' not 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Think what you want lol. Say you win unchallenged. Bask in your own self righteous delusion. More power to ya. You didn't answer my question though.

Right I agree with you - it's not a weapon profile. However - the single weapon profile tells you exactly how to use more than one of them. It doesn't specify how 3 should be used and that is an error on GW part a FAQ is needed to address this issue. RAW supports +1 attack IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:
See I believe the RAW fits better with the +3 argument..

I just personally feel +3A feels like too many and that RAI was for only +1.. because the sentence was structured differently to chainswords

the use of plurals means nothing in this case as they are referring to a paired item. If it wasn't pluraled you would get the confusion you currently have in the IA book.. where it is referenced as Scything talon.. and there is an error where one of the Heriodules either has too many of not enough of them

It reasonable to assume that nothing wields 3 chain swords (humans typically have only 2 hands) and that is indeed why it is worded differently.

GodDamUser wrote:
See I believe the RAW fits better with the +3 argument..

I just personally feel +3A feels like too many and that RAI was for only +1.. because the sentence was structured differently to chainswords

the use of plurals means nothing in this case as they are referring to a paired item. If it wasn't pluraled you would get the confusion you currently have in the IA book.. where it is referenced as Scything talon.. and there is an error where one of the Heriodules either has too many of not enough of them

The use of the plural indicates what the weapon is.

Any number of massive scything talons is a single weapon, per the RAW.

And since it does not say 'pair of massive scything talons' that means that when you purchase additional pairs of massive scything talons, you aren't purchasing a weapon but are purchasing an UPGRADE for your 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile.

@xenomancer: the rule doesn't tell you what to do with more than one pair of scytal. It tells you what to do with that specific pair of scytal when more than one is present.

Its a diference of kind.

col_impact wrote:

The use of the plural indicates what the weapon is.

Any number of massive scything talons is a single weapon, per the RAW.

And since it does not say 'pair of massive scything talons' that means that when you purchase additional pairs of massive scything talons, you aren't purchasing a weapon but are purchasing an UPGRADE for your 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile.

Do you always refer to Glasses as a 'Pair of Glasses' all the time or just 'Glasses'

in both cases it is the same thing and both use a plural

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

The use of the plural indicates what the weapon is.

Any number of massive scything talons is a single weapon, per the RAW.

And since it does not say 'pair of massive scything talons' that means that when you purchase additional pairs of massive scything talons, you aren't purchasing a weapon but are purchasing an UPGRADE for your 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile.

Do you always refer to Glasses as a 'Pair of Glasses' all the time or just 'Glasses'

in both cases it is the same thing and both use a plural

You don't understand the significance. The weapon profile is named 'massive scything talons' so any number of massive scything talons is a single weapon profile.

The rule for the 'massive scything talons' weapon checks for whether you have bought the additional 'pair of massive scything talons' UPGRADE.

Upgrades don't exist.wargear exists. Your spouting nonsense.

 Lance845 wrote:
Upgrades don't exist.wargear exists. Your spouting nonsense.

A 'pair of massive scything talons' is not a weapon profile.

'massive scything talons' is a weapon profile.

When you buy an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it is wargear/equipment that is not a weapon profile but is wargear/equipment that will improve your 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile by giving it +1 A.

Are you basing all of that on the fact the word pair is used?

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Upgrades don't exist.wargear exists. Your spouting nonsense.

A 'pair of massive scything talons' is not a weapon profile.

'massive scything talons' is a weapon profile.

When you buy an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it is wargear/equipment that is not a weapon profile but is wargear/equipment that will improve your 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile by giving it +1 A.

That is not how wargear works. But I will follow part of what you say that is technically true and correct you in how it actually plays out.

"A pair of massive scything talons" is not a profile. True. But a pair is 2 of a thing. So a model equipped with 2 separate pieces of wargear called "massive scything talons" is said to be equipped with a pair of "massive scything talons. So a model that buys 3 pairs of massive scything talons actually has 6 pieces of wargear that all have the same profile and grants 6 additional attacks.

Good job col_impact. Acording to you a Tryon gets +6 attacks.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Upgrades don't exist.wargear exists. Your spouting nonsense.

A 'pair of massive scything talons' is not a weapon profile.

'massive scything talons' is a weapon profile.

When you buy an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it is wargear/equipment that is not a weapon profile but is wargear/equipment that will improve your 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile by giving it +1 A.

That is not how wargear works. But I will follow part of what you say that is technically true and correct you in how it actually plays out.

"A pair of massive scything talons" is not a profile. True. But a pair is 2 of a thing. So a model equipped with 2 separate pieces of wargear called "massive scything talons" is said to be equipped with a pair of "massive scything talons. So a model that buys 3 pairs of massive scything talons actually has 6 pieces of wargear that all have the same profile and grants 6 additional attacks.

Good job col_impact. Acording to you a Tryon gets +6 attacks.

Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

Please quote for us a reference and rule that explains that wargear works that way. Also I really do enjoy your confidence in your delusion. Its super amusing.

You don't think it's possible that the plural form of the Massive Scything Talons profile (Which your entire newest angle at this is built on) is because they only come in pairs and are never a single Talon?

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons'. No matter how many massive scything talons you have it's a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Please quote for us a reference and rule that explains that wargear works that way. Also I really do enjoy your confidence in your delusion. Its super amusing.

No delusion. The weapon profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'pair of massive scything talons'

However many massive scything talons you have will amount to a single weapon profile.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons'. No matter how many massive scything talons you have it's a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Please quote for us a reference and rule that explains that wargear works that way. Also I really do enjoy your confidence in your delusion. Its super amusing.

No delusion. The weapon profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'pair of massive scything talons'

However many massive scything talons you have will amount to a single weapon profile.

I don't see a quote or page number in there.

 Eldarain wrote:
You don't think it's possible that the plural form of the Massive Scything Talons profile (Which your entire newest angle at this is built on) is because they only come in pairs and are never a single Talon?

If the weapon profile corresponded to a 'pair of massive scything talons' it would say so.

The weapon profile corresponds to 'massive scything talons' which incorporates however many massive scything talons are on the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons'. No matter how many massive scything talons you have it's a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Please quote for us a reference and rule that explains that wargear works that way. Also I really do enjoy your confidence in your delusion. Its super amusing.

No delusion. The weapon profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'pair of massive scything talons'

However many massive scything talons you have will amount to a single weapon profile.

I don't see a quote or page number in there.

None needed. 'Pair of massive scything talons' is not the name of any weapon profile. 'Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile. So however many 'massive scything talons' a model has they are all considered a single weapon per the rules as written (as long as there is at least 2).

The burden on you is to show a weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'. You are the one making the unjustified claim that a pair is a single weapon, not me. The rules as they are written directly justify my argument. I am treating as a single weapon what the rules are literally telling me to treat as a single weapon.

col_impact wrote:


None needed. 'Pair of massive scything talons' is not the name of any weapon profile. 'Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile. So however many 'massive scything talons' a model has they are all considered a single weapon per the rules as written (as long as there is at least 2).

The burden on you is to show a weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'. You are the one making the unjustified claim that a pair is a single weapon, not me. The rules as they are written directly justify my argument. I am treating as a single weapon what the rules are literally telling me to treat as a single weapon.

That is not my current argument with you. I said a pair is 2 of the same profile. 2 pairs is 4 profiles. Prove that wrong.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


None needed. 'Pair of massive scything talons' is not the name of any weapon profile. 'Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile. So however many 'massive scything talons' a model has they are all considered a single weapon per the rules as written (as long as there is at least 2).

The burden on you is to show a weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'. You are the one making the unjustified claim that a pair is a single weapon, not me. The rules as they are written directly justify my argument. I am treating as a single weapon what the rules are literally telling me to treat as a single weapon.

That is not my current argument with you. I said a pair is 2 of the same profile. 2 pairs is 4 profiles. Prove that wrong.

A 'pair of massive scything talons' would have to correspond with a 'massive scything talon' profile in the singular.

However, the profile is not for 'massive scything talon' nor is it 'pair of massive scything talons' so your argument has no merit.

The profile is for 'massive scything talons' which proves my argument right. 2 or more massive scything talons is all the same single weapon profile.

Well. As amusing as this insanity is, I am going to go back to my suggestion to ignore col_impacts contributions. Nothing to see here.

 Lance845 wrote:
Well. As amusing as this insanity is, I am going to go back to my suggestion to ignore col_impacts contributions. Nothing to see here.

Ha ha. Got it. I prove you wrong so your next step is to ignore me.

I will accept your concession.

Ignoring my contributions means that my argument is unchallenged.

RAW, the weapon profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many scything talons a model has (as long as they have at least 2).

Therefore, if a model has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' then it will add +1A.


The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons'. No matter how many massive scything talons you have it's a single weapon.

So when you're told to purchase 3 sets of massive scything talons, that's not 3 sets of weapons. R-i-i-i-i-i-ight. It's not listed as buying 1 set of 6 massive scything talons or 1 set of 3 pairs of scything talons. 3 sets does not equal 1 weapon. It sure looks like 3 sets of weapons means exactly that. Three sets.

"Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out" In this case they should have had a disclaimer for not stopping at 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The reason you get ignored col_impact is because you state the same thing again and again and don't listen to anything else or state anything new. You enter into these debates with a closed mind, so a debate is not worth it with you. I'm new here and have already figured that out.
Whether you are wrong or right doesn't matter. By RAW there is nothing to support what you say no matter how many times you say it and repeat it.
RAI, I think will be +1 attack, but as Written, there is enough doubt to simply dismiss other opinions is foolish.

This really needs a FAQ ASAP, the more i read into the various rules the more my head hurts.

So in the rule book it states "The weapons a models are described on its datasheet. If a model has more than one melee weapon choose which will be used before rolling the dice.
If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between the weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled."

The Trygon data sheet tells us that it has three pairs of massive scything talons. Pairs means two, two times three is six total massive scything talons.
The datasheet then gives us the profile for the massive scything talon with the ability that "if the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

The word pair is really only used for describing quantity, to tell us the number of scything talons (of any size). Pairs of scything talons are removed when upgrading the Tyrant or Carnifex but monstrous crushing/rending claws do not specifically mention they come in pairs so there is some inconsistency. It really doesn't help that talons can be bought in pairs or multiple pairs yet the weapon profile does not reflect this at all.

Pair is also used to tell us how many scything talons we need before the second portion of the abilities trigger. By RAW we are allowed to split our attacks; and if we split the 6 attacks legally (1 to the mandatory toxinspike and the remaining 5 split among 5 of the 6 scything talons). Then the secondary ability of the talons would kick in and generate +1 attack for each individual talon with attacks allocated to it, thus +5 attacks.

Really more thought should have gone into Tyranids and their wording of rules because they have a few things they can do that no other army can do.

I think if it was worded for every two talons used during melee gain +1 attack or just rename them to pairs of talons.

 Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

But intent isn't RAW.

 Deathklaat wrote:
This really needs a FAQ ASAP, the more i read into the various rules the more my head hurts.

So in the rule book it states "The weapons a models are described on its datasheet. If a model has more than one melee weapon choose which will be used before rolling the dice.
If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between the weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled."

The Trygon data sheet tells us that it has three pairs of massive scything talons. Pairs means two, two times three is six total massive scything talons.
The datasheet then gives us the profile for the massive scything talon with the ability that "if the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

The word pair is really only used for describing quantity, to tell us the number of scything talons (of any size). Pairs of scything talons are removed when upgrading the Tyrant or Carnifex but monstrous crushing/rending claws do not specifically mention they come in pairs so there is some inconsistency. It really doesn't help that talons can be bought in pairs or multiple pairs yet the weapon profile does not reflect this at all.

Pair is also used to tell us how many scything talons we need before the second portion of the abilities trigger. By RAW we are allowed to split our attacks; and if we split the 6 attacks legally (1 to the mandatory toxinspike and the remaining 5 split among 5 of the 6 scything talons). Then the secondary ability of the talons would kick in and generate +1 attack for each individual talon with attacks allocated to it, thus +5 attacks.

Really more thought should have gone into Tyranids and their wording of rules because they have a few things they can do that no other army can do.

Traditionally tyranid weapon options all come in pairs. In their codexes they often have a little side bar rule explaining that each single weapon profile = 2 arms. This cannot be the case anymore because deathspitter and devourers on a hive tyrant don't do that. They are a single profile. I believe, based on the points costs, that each single profile for scytal is meant to represent 2 arms. If each profile represented a single arm then it costs more for a carnifex/hivetyrant to have a single pair then it does to have 2.

Basically they named the profiles wrong by omitting the word pair.

I think that issue is obvious enough that we can all just move along. Thanks Robin Crud Face. Your gak understanding of rules writing feths us again.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

Just to be clear, you no longer dispute what it says, but the validity of the points cost for the benefit?

The points cost difference is because it's for aspecific model that can have no other options. Tke into account the total cost of the model and it's abilities.

A carnifex might pay more for it's +1 attack but it's also a overall much less expensive platform that could do othe things.

The Trygons are much more expensive platforms and don't have a choice.

I really hope GW comes out with index clarifications and corrections sooner than waiting for actual codex to drop to address all of the issues.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

They are actually costed differently whether you have 1, 2, or 3 sets. Each creature pays roughly 50% of the cost of the first set for each additional set. Intent wise it seems they are meant to benefit from the more sets they have. It's possible that they didn't mean for all three sets of a Trygon to proc but it does appear that they intended each set to benefit you more than the last.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Deathklaat wrote:
This really needs a FAQ ASAP, the more i read into the various rules the more my head hurts.

So in the rule book it states "The weapons a models are described on its datasheet. If a model has more than one melee weapon choose which will be used before rolling the dice.
If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between the weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled."

The Trygon data sheet tells us that it has three pairs of massive scything talons. Pairs means two, two times three is six total massive scything talons.
The datasheet then gives us the profile for the massive scything talon with the ability that "if the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

The word pair is really only used for describing quantity, to tell us the number of scything talons (of any size). Pairs of scything talons are removed when upgrading the Tyrant or Carnifex but monstrous crushing/rending claws do not specifically mention they come in pairs so there is some inconsistency. It really doesn't help that talons can be bought in pairs or multiple pairs yet the weapon profile does not reflect this at all.

Pair is also used to tell us how many scything talons we need before the second portion of the abilities trigger. By RAW we are allowed to split our attacks; and if we split the 6 attacks legally (1 to the mandatory toxinspike and the remaining 5 split among 5 of the 6 scything talons). Then the secondary ability of the talons would kick in and generate +1 attack for each individual talon with attacks allocated to it, thus +5 attacks.

Really more thought should have gone into Tyranids and their wording of rules because they have a few things they can do that no other army can do.

Traditionally tyranid weapon options all come in pairs. In their codexes they often have a little side bar rule explaining that each single weapon profile = 2 arms. This cannot be the case anymore because deathspitter and devourers on a hive tyrant don't do that. They are a single profile. I believe, based on the points costs, that each single profile for scytal is meant to represent 2 arms. If each profile represented a single arm then it costs more for a carnifex/hivetyrant to have a single pair then it does to have 2.

Basically they named the profiles wrong by omitting the word pair.

I think that issue is obvious enough that we can all just move along. Thanks Robin Crud Face. Your gak understanding of rules writing feths us again.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

Just to be clear, you no longer dispute what it says, but the validity of the points cost for the benefit?

The points cost difference is because it's for aspecific model that can have no other options. Tke into account the total cost of the model and it's abilities.

A carnifex might pay more for it's +1 attack but it's also a overall much less expensive platform that could do othe things.

The Trygons are much more expensive platforms and don't have a choice.

I don't think it's disputable - the weapon profiles and data sheet do not provide sufficient evidence to draw any conclusion. The rules are incomplete. The purpose of this discussion is really for the interim period before GW makes it's ruling (I'm sure we will hear from them soon on this). It really is - what do you think this incomplete rule means? I've tried to look at it from every angel and I just can't say. I just know that if I was going up against it - (keep in mind I play Tyranids as well) I would be pretty opposed to someone getting +3 attacks with a d6 damage weapon for the same price as the exact wargear on another creature gets only +1 for based on some incomplete rules. I have to look at intent here - I think intent based on the way the wrote the MST special rule - is clearly +1 attack if you have more than one pair. They really blew it though with the rules writing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

Its pretty clear what from all the various similar weapons that its +1 attack. We bring this up because RAW says its +3 attacks.

I added this to the general faq thread.

 Lance845 wrote:
Index Xenos 2:

There is a bigger issue with every version of the Scything Talon weapons.

Every model that can take Scything Talons says on their Dataslate that they come equipped with a or more "Pair/s of [Scything Talon Variant]."

There is no profile for "Pair of Scything Talons" Only "Scything Talons"

RAW: A Hormagaunt has a pair of Scything Talons meaning 2 weapon profiles called Scything Talons. A Carnifex equiped with 2 pairs has 4, and a Trygon equipped with 3 pairs has 6.

That means RAW a Trygon gets +6 attacks with it's 6 profiles for having 2 or more pairs.

This does not really match up with points costs. A Hive Tyrant pays 31 points for a single profile called "Monstrous Scything Talons" meaning a single pair costs 62 points. But 2 pairs purchased together is 41 points. It costs 50% more for 50% less profiles.

Same with Carnifex, 14 points for a single profile (28 for a single pair) or 20 points for 2 pairs.

This, to me, looks like an obvious omission in the naming of the profiles where every version of ScyTal should be named "Pair of [version] Scything Talons". But currently, RAW, it makes single pairs prohibitively expensive and multiple pairs able to trigger twice as many bonus attacks as is probably intended.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

They are actually costed differently whether you have 1, 2, or 3 sets. Each creature pays roughly 50% of the cost of the first set for each additional set. Intent wise it seems they are meant to benefit from the more sets they have. It's possible that they didn't mean for all three sets of a Trygon to proc but it does appear that they intended each set to benefit you more than the last.

No they are costed different based on if you have 1 or more than 1. It's listed like this. Massive Scything Talons - 30 points Massive scything talons (2 or more pairs) - 60 points. To me this is a clear indication that +1 attack was all that was ever intended.

But that is not a general cost for 2 or more pairs. That is a specific cost for a specific 2 models that can only ever have 3 pairs. "2 or more" could easily be replaced with "3" and it would function exactly the same because the models that can purchase 2 or more cannot have 2 and cannot have more than 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deathklaat wrote:
Just for clarification a Trygon could only get +5 attacks as one of it's 6 base attacks must be used with the tail weapon.

Also i'd like to know what happens with a Tyrant or Carnifex that replaces all of it's scything talons with ranged weapons and then gets into CC.

Does it only use one attack with the tail weapons or do they gain the profile listed in the main rule book?

I am responding to you here because we are not supposed to discuss the individual rules debates in that thread.

You do not need to use the ScyTal profile to get the bonus attacks. The rule says you get the +1 attack with this weapon each time the model fights. NOT each time it fights with this weapon. If the bearer is fighting and it has more than one pair it gets to make an additional attack that has to use the scytal profile that is generating the extra attack. You could use every base attack with some other weapon and you would still trigger an additional attack for every scytal profile.

One person argued that you need to be using the profile for the ability portion of the profile to trigger.

That is never stated in 8ths rules and would make many weapons abilities in 8th nonsense. Including the tail weapons nids have that say 1 and only 1 attack must be made with this weapon. If the ability wasn't always in effect because the model was equiped then as long as you never use the tail you never HAVE to do anything with it.

So, if the profiles abilities are always in effect, then the triggers for the scy tal abilities are 1) more than one pair 2) each time it fights = Effect: +1 attack that must be made with this weapon.

I just don't see how points cost is anything but a logical fallacy. It's not the profile. If you want to say it's proof of RAI, that's fine, but it's not an argument in this case because it's not proof of RAW - only the profile for the weapon is.

Jacksmiles wrote:
I just don't see how points cost is anything but a logical fallacy. It's not the profile. If you want to say it's proof of RAI, that's fine, but it's not an argument in this case because it's not proof of RAW - only the profile for the weapon is.

Right. And what does the profile say? 'Massive scything talons'

So 'massive scything talons' is the single weapon profile.

 Lance845 wrote:
But that is not a general cost for 2 or more pairs. That is a specific cost for a specific 2 models that can only ever have 3 pairs. "2 or more" could easily be replaced with "3" and it would function exactly the same because the models that can purchase 2 or more cannot have 2 and cannot have more than 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deathklaat wrote:
Just for clarification a Trygon could only get +5 attacks as one of it's 6 base attacks must be used with the tail weapon.

Also i'd like to know what happens with a Tyrant or Carnifex that replaces all of it's scything talons with ranged weapons and then gets into CC.

Does it only use one attack with the tail weapons or do they gain the profile listed in the main rule book?

I am responding to you here because we are not supposed to discuss the individual rules debates in that thread.

You do not need to use the ScyTal profile to get the bonus attacks. The rule says you get the +1 attack with this weapon each time the model fights. NOT each time it fights with this weapon. If the bearer is fighting and it has more than one pair it gets to make an additional attack that has to use the scytal profile that is generating the extra attack. You could use every base attack with some other weapon and you would still trigger an additional attack for every scytal profile.

One person argued that you need to be using the profile for the ability portion of the profile to trigger.

That is never stated in 8ths rules and would make many weapons abilities in 8th nonsense. Including the tail weapons nids have that say 1 and only 1 attack must be made with this weapon. If the ability wasn't always in effect because the model was equiped then as long as you never use the tail you never HAVE to do anything with it.

So, if the profiles abilities are always in effect, then the triggers for the scy tal abilities are 1) more than one pair 2) each time it fights = Effect: +1 attack that must be made with this weapon.

Not to be TFG but i think you need to read the full ability description for the tail attacks and the full description for the scything talons.

The tail weapons (the scythe is the exception) specifically states "each time the bearer fights (one and only one) of its attacks must be made with this weapon."
There is no choice here, every time you attack one of your attacks from your attack profile HAS to be used for the tail.

I just wanted to know what happens when you replace the tyrant and carnifex scything talons with ranged weapons and then fight in CC. The rulebook mentions a profile if you had no CC weapons but you do and it only can attack once. Are the other attacks wasted then? Do these units gain the weapon profile because they cannot use all of their attacks with the CC weapon they have left?

Back to the thread discussion ->

I quoted the rule in full earlier but this is the important part "if the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights."
The rule checks for number of pairs and grants +1 for that specific weapon every time it fights.

I have been really wanting to play my Nids since 8th came out but i feel their section of rules has the largest amount of vagueness,discrepancies and inconsistencies that i have been holding off for a Nid specific FAQ or the codex itself.

I was responding to you saying a Tryon could only get +5 attacks because it would only have 5 attacks available. I repeat. The Tryon does not need to attack with the scytal to get the +1 attack with the scytal. If it was possible it could make all of its 6 base attacks with any 1 weapon profile and every scytal profile would still generate 1 additional attack so long as 1) it fights and 2) it has more than one pair. The rule does not require you to attack with the weapon to get the bonus the way the tail weapon does to generate its ability. It just requires that the bonus attack that is generated has to use that scytal profile.

Per RAW, 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile.

There is no weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'

When you purchase an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it merely provides the +1 A as it is not a weapon profile.

That's how the rules are written here.

Fortunately, that is also RAI.

An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

col_impact wrote:
Per RAW, 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile.

There is no weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'

When you purchase an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it merely provides the +1 A as it is not a weapon profile.

That's how the rules are written here.

Fortunately, that is also RAI.

Fortunately, your argument has no meaning.

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

The reason to choose different profiles is to split attacks among different enemy units.I would never swing every attack have at a single remaining marine if I could also swing at a full unit. Il give 2 swings to the one and the rest to the rest.

 Lance845 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

The reason to choose different profiles is to split attacks among different enemy units.I would never swing every attack have at a single remaining marine if I could also swing at a full unit. Il give 2 swings to the one and the rest to the rest.

The rule is you choose a melee weapon, or if you have different melee weapons which attacks are which weapon. There's a profile associated with each weapon. I was trying to correct col impact with him saying there is only one profile while trying to give the impression that there is only one weapon. He was wrong saying that "when you purchase an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it merely provides the +1 A as it is not a weapon profile.' It is a separate weapon, which has a profile that happens to be the same as the the profile for the first set.. If you have the same profile, it normally doesn't matter if you split the attacks using one weapon on all the attacks or different weapons, since you get to split the attacks between units as you wish whether it is with one weapon or multiple weapons. You're still attacking with the same profile no matter which weapon you use.

 doctortom wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

The reason to choose different profiles is to split attacks among different enemy units.I would never swing every attack have at a single remaining marine if I could also swing at a full unit. Il give 2 swings to the one and the rest to the rest.

The rule is you choose a melee weapon, or if you have different melee weapons which attacks are which weapon. There's a profile associated with each weapon. I was trying to correct col impact with him saying there is only one profile while trying to give the impression that there is only one weapon. He was wrong saying that "when you purchase an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it merely provides the +1 A as it is not a weapon profile.' It is a separate weapon, which has a profile that happens to be the same as the the profile for the first set.. If you have the same profile, it normally doesn't matter if you split the attacks using one weapon on all the attacks or different weapons, since you get to split the attacks between units as you wish whether it is with one weapon or multiple weapons. You're still attacking with the same profile no matter which weapon you use.

Oh yeah, Col_Impact is completely wrong. He's been repeating the same nonsense for about 2 pages now. Most of us are just ignoring him because it's not worth the discussion.

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

Your argument has no rules support. The weapon profile is not named 'pair of massive scything talons'. The weapon profile is named 'massive scything talons'.

So when you add additional 'pairs of massive scything talons' you are not purchasing another weapon profile. You are merely purchasing equipment that will grant +1A.

There is a single weapon profile named 'massive scything talons' for however many massive scything talons you have.

That's the RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:


Oh yeah, Col_Impact is completely wrong. He's been repeating the same nonsense for about 2 pages now. Most of us are just ignoring him because it's not worth the discussion.

On this forum, you have to prove me wrong. If you ignore me then it just proves my argument is correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:


Fortunately, your argument has no meaning.

You haven't proven my argument wrong. The weapon profile 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile for all the massive scything talons a model has. That's the RAW.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

Your argument has no rules support. The weapon profile is not named 'pair of massive scything talons'. The weapon profile is named 'massive scything talons'.

So when you add additional 'pairs of massive scything talons' you are not purchasing another weapon profile. You are merely purchasing equipment that will grant +1A.

There is a single weapon profile named 'massive scything talons' for however many massive scything talons you have.

That's the RAW.

Epic fail on reading comprehension there, col impact. I said if you buy an additional pair, you are buying another weapon. You purchase weapons, not weapon profiles. The weapon has a profile associated with it, but you buy the weapon. There's a special rule for this weapon that if you have an extra pair you get +1 A. That does not mean it is not a weapon that you can't buy, however. You even admit that it is "equipment"; that equipment just happens to be a weapon. The weapon has the same profile as what is listed for the first set that you come equipped with. That applies for each set you purchase.

Feel free to point out a rule that says "massive scything talons" are not a weapon. Then, point out where it says a weapon does not have a profille, That is what you need to do for your assertions about "that's the RAW".

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

Your argument has no rules support. The weapon profile is not named 'pair of massive scything talons'. The weapon profile is named 'massive scything talons'.

So when you add additional 'pairs of massive scything talons' you are not purchasing another weapon profile. You are merely purchasing equipment that will grant +1A.

There is a single weapon profile named 'massive scything talons' for however many massive scything talons you have.

That's the RAW.

Epic fail on reading comprehension there, col impact. I said if you buy an additional pair, you are buying another weapon. You purchase weapons, not weapon profiles. The weapon has a profile associated with it, but you buy the weapon. There's a special rule for this weapon that if you have an extra pair you get +1 A. That does not mean it is not a weapon that you can't buy, however. You even admit that it is "equipment"; that equipment just happens to be a weapon. The weapon has the same profile as what is listed for the first set that you come equipped with. That applies for each set you purchase.

I am reading the rules as they are.

There is no weapon profile that says 'pair of massive scything talons' so you aren't buying a weapon profile when you buy a 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Until you can provide a weapon profile that says 'pair of massive scything talons' your argument has no RAW support.

The weapon profile the model has says 'massive scything talons' so it's a single weapon profile for however many scything talons the model has. That's the RAW.

As the rules are, when you purchase 'pair of massive scything talons' you are purchasing wargear/equipment that will grant +1A, but you are not purchasing a new weapon. There is simply no weapon profile associated with 'pair of massive scything talons'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Feel free to point out a rule that says "massive scything talons" are not a weapon. Then, point out where it says a weapon does not have a profille, That is what you need to do for your assertions about "that's the RAW".

You have this backwards. The weapon profile we have does say 'massive scything talons' and so is a single weapon profile for however many scything talons the model has. That is what the rules literally say.

Your problem is that there is no weapon profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' so there is no rules support for your claim that when you purchase a 'pair of massive scything talons' that you are purchasing a weapon.

Your wasting your time doctortom. I tried. He's just gunna repeat his last post and then congratulate himself.

But, specifically, every piece of equipment a model has is wargear. Adrenal glands, wargear with a profile. Weapons? wargear with a profile. You cannot modify a piece of wargears profile. You can simply buy more wargear that influences it.

I.E. smart targetting systems increase the AP value on Tau Guns. That is one profile modifying another. 2 profiles still exist.

 Lance845 wrote:
Your wasting your time doctortom. I tried. He's just gunna repeat his last post and then congratulate himself.

But, specifically, every piece of equipment a model has is wargear. Adrenal glands, wargear with a profile. Weapons? wargear with a profile. You cannot modify a piece of wargears profile. You can simply buy more wargear that influences it.

I.E. smart targetting systems increase the AP value on Tau Guns. That is one profile modifying another. 2 profiles still exist.

Right. And 'pair of massive scything talons' does not correspond with any weapon profile so it's wargear/equipment that merely grants +1A to the 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile that the model already has.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
An additional pair would be an additional weapon with the same profile. That's the actual RAW. The +1 A is a special bonus mentioned for having an additional pair, but that does not mean that it is not a weapon. You can technically split your attacks and claim the different massive scything talons are being used for the different attacks. It doesn't make a practical difference in this case since the weapons are the same, but some player for some reason might want to determine which set of scything talons on the model is the "lucky" set hitting and wounding opponents. Stranger things have happened.

Your argument has no rules support. The weapon profile is not named 'pair of massive scything talons'. The weapon profile is named 'massive scything talons'.

So when you add additional 'pairs of massive scything talons' you are not purchasing another weapon profile. You are merely purchasing equipment that will grant +1A.

There is a single weapon profile named 'massive scything talons' for however many massive scything talons you have.

That's the RAW.

Epic fail on reading comprehension there, col impact. I said if you buy an additional pair, you are buying another weapon. You purchase weapons, not weapon profiles. The weapon has a profile associated with it, but you buy the weapon. There's a special rule for this weapon that if you have an extra pair you get +1 A. That does not mean it is not a weapon that you can't buy, however. You even admit that it is "equipment"; that equipment just happens to be a weapon. The weapon has the same profile as what is listed for the first set that you come equipped with. That applies for each set you purchase.

I am reading the rules as they are.

There is no weapon profile that says 'pair of massive scything talons' so you aren't buying a weapon profile when you buy a 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Until you can provide a weapon profile that says 'pair of massive scything talons' your argument has no RAW support.

The weapon profile the model has says 'massive scything talons' so it's a single weapon profile for however many scything talons the model has. That's the RAW.

As the rules are, when you purchase 'pair of massive scything talons' you are purchasing wargear/equipment that will grant +1A, but you are not purchasing a new weapon. There is simply no weapon profile associated with 'pair of massive scything talons'.

You're not reading the rules as they are at all.

My argument doesn't matter whether it says "massive scything talons" or "pair of massive scything talons" or "set of scything talons". When you are told you have a set as a weapon and that you may buy more, you are buying more weapons. The profile that applies to the first set would apply to each set.

col_impact wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Feel free to point out a rule that says "massive scything talons" are not a weapon. Then, point out where it says a weapon does not have a profille, That is what you need to do for your assertions about "that's the RAW".

You have this backwards. The weapon profile we have does say 'massive scything talons' and so is a single weapon profile for however many scything talons the model has. That is what the rules literally say.

Your problem is that there is no weapon profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' so there is no rules support for your claim that when you purchase a 'pair of massive scything talons' that you are purchasing a weapon.

No I don't have this backwards at all. I have a weapon and I'm told I can buy additional weapons - additional sets. Drop the "pair of scything talons" argument for now, because - as some people have pointed out, if Massive Scything Talons profile is not for a pair, as it is indicated, then it's for one limb's worth of scything talons, and you end up with double the number. You don't do your argument any justice there, you've got things up to 6 Massive Scything Talons with 3 pairs.

 doctortom wrote:


You're not reading the rules as they are at all.

My argument doesn't matter whether it says "massive scything talons" or "pair of massive scything talons" or "set of scything talons". When you are told you have a set as a weapon and that you may buy more, you are buying more weapons. The profile that applies to the first set would apply to each set.

The single profile that is provided 'massive scything talons' applies a single weapon profile to all the scything talons.

There is no profile called 'pair of massive scything talons' so when you add an additional 'pair of massive scything talons you are not adding a weapon. You are merely adding wargear/equipment that grants +1A per the rule on the 'massive scything talons' profile.

You have to show me a weapon profile called 'pair of massive scything talons' in order to claim that you are purchasing a weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


No I don't have this backwards at all. I have a weapon and I'm told I can buy additional weapons - additional sets. Drop the "pair of scything talons" argument for now, because - as some people have pointed out, if Massive Scything Talons profile is not for a pair, as it is indicated, then it's for one limb's worth of scything talons, and you end up with double the number. You don't do your argument any justice there, you've got things up to 6 Massive Scything Talons with 3 pairs.

You are not told that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is an additional weapon. No where does it say that. You are making that up.

Per RAW, the weapon profile is 'massive scything talons' and is a single profile for however many massive scything talons a model has. It doesn't matter how many pairs of massive scything talons a model has, 'massive scything talons' is a SINGLE weapon profile for all of them (the profile refers to itself as 'this weapon' not 'these weapons').

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


You're not reading the rules as they are at all.

My argument doesn't matter whether it says "massive scything talons" or "pair of massive scything talons" or "set of scything talons". When you are told you have a set as a weapon and that you may buy more, you are buying more weapons. The profile that applies to the first set would apply to each set.

The single profile that is provided 'massive scything talons' applies a single weapon profile to all the scything talons..

your assumption, not proof.

col_impact wrote:
There is no profile called 'pair of massive scything talons' so when you add an additional 'pair of massive scything talons you are not adding a weapon. You are merely adding wargear/equipment that grants +1A per the rule on the 'massive scything talons' profile.

Based on your assumption that "massive scything talons" covers scything talons no matter how many sets you have. As opposed to the rules indicating that when you buy a weapon, you buy a weapon, and when you buy multiple weapons you actually do buy multiple weapons.

col_impact wrote:
You have to show me a weapon profile called 'pair of massive scything talons' in order to claim that you are purchasing weapon.

Nope, you have to provide me rules proof about your assumption that the one rules profile applies to all sets as one weapon when with other weapons, buying an additional weapon means having another weapon. All I need to do right now is ask "how many massive scything talons does the model have", and when you say "6" I point out that that means there are 6 with that profile if the profile is not for a pair of scything talons, with the potential to use each one separately if you can make 6 attacks.

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


You're not reading the rules as they are at all.

My argument doesn't matter whether it says "massive scything talons" or "pair of massive scything talons" or "set of scything talons". When you are told you have a set as a weapon and that you may buy more, you are buying more weapons. The profile that applies to the first set would apply to each set.

The single profile that is provided 'massive scything talons' applies a single weapon profile to all the scything talons..

your assumption, not proof.

Nope. Proof is in the RAW. The 'massive scything talons' weapon profile refers to itself as 'this weapon' so however many you have its a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Based on your assumption that "massive scything talons" covers scything talons no matter how many sets you have. As opposed to the rules indicating that when you buy a weapon, you buy a weapon, and when you buy multiple weapons you actually do buy multiple weapons.

No assumption. The profile refers to itself as 'this weapon' so it is a single weapon no matter how many you have.

There are no rules indicating that you are buying a weapon when you buy a 'pair of massive scything talons'. If you have a rule, please provide it.

Unless you can start pointing out rules to the contrary, my argument is proved by the RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Nope, you have to provide me rules proof about your assumption that the one rules profile applies to all sets as one weapon when with other weapons, buying an additional weapon means having another weapon. All I need to do right now is ask "how many massive scything talons does the model have", and when you say "6" I point out that that means there are 6 with that profile if the profile is not for a pair of scything talons, with the potential to use each one separately if you can make 6 attacks.

Nope. The profile does not say 'massive scything talon' so your argument has no merit.

Read the actual weapon profile.

Per RAW, the model has a single weapon profile for 'massive scything talons'. There could be 2000 massive scything talons but it all still is a single weapon profile.

Basic tip of the YMDC if Col_Impact gets involed 90% of the time the thread is dead and will spout the same nonsense over and over again, and it is usually incorrect.

Do believe it is time to lock this thread

GodDamUser wrote:
Basic tip of the YMDC if Col_Impact gets involed 90% of the time the thread is dead and will spout the same nonsense over and over again, and it is usually incorrect.

Do believe it is time to lock this thread

You can't just call my argument nonsense. You need to prove it. That is Tenet #1 of YMDC. Back up what you say.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Basic tip of the YMDC if Col_Impact gets involed 90% of the time the thread is dead and will spout the same nonsense over and over again, and it is usually incorrect.

Do believe it is time to lock this thread

You can't just call my argument nonsense. You need to prove it. That is Tenet #1 of YMDC. Back up what you say.

We can call it whatever we want because it is.

I agree. Lock it up.

At this point col_impact is either just the worst person in the world at reading rules or he is a master class troll with a level of dedication that boarders on obsession. Either way I simply will never participate in a discussion with him again.

col_impact wrote:
You can't just call my argument nonsense. You need to prove it. That is Tenet #1 of YMDC. Back up what you say.

You refusing everyone else's argument doesn't count as not proving it... and has been shown in numerous threads that you refuse to look at any view other than the one you have established in your head.. even when shown to be incorrect via FAQs

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You can't just call my argument nonsense. You need to prove it. That is Tenet #1 of YMDC. Back up what you say.

You refusing everyone else's argument doesn't count as not proving it... and has been shown in numerous threads that you refuse to look at any view other than the one you have established in your head.. even when shown to be incorrect via FAQs

No one has posted an argument with any support. They have just said 'nonsense' or 'dumb'. If you want me to accept your view then you have to support it.

Meanwhile, my argument is supported directly by the RAW.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:


At this point col_impact is either just the worst person in the world at reading rules or he is a master class troll with a level of dedication that boarders on obsession. Either way I simply will never participate in a discussion with him again.

You failed to present an argument with evidence.

And now your only recourse is personal attacks.

Prove my argument wrong or concede that my argument has RAW support and is correct.

Suggestion.

Instead of just calling col_impact names, why don't you follow the Tenets of YMDC and prove his argument wrong.

As it looks, col_impact's argument is supported by the RAW.

+1 to orknado. The attacks on col_impact are themselves trolling, especially because he is correct in this case.

I would like to point out that this is 7 pages long and clearly needs an faq from gw. Along with orther things in the nid codex. So much for 8th.