A number of years ago, when the 5th edition Imperial Guard codex came out, I wrote up a rather sprawling review of it, as it was a major change to my favorite army after six years of frustration with an aging codex and multiple edition changes. As we enter a new era of change, I was again feel the urge to discuss the rules available to my beloved army. Of course, there isn’t really a codex, or an Imperial Guard, and really, the concept of what an Astra Militarum Army can include is muddled with the new keyword system… but still, let’s do a deep dive into the new AM rules!

While I think that the nature of cross buffs will make most AM armies mostly have AM units, rather than a true skittles approach to the Imperiuim, I will try to add some discussion of common subsidiary units, such as assassins, Imperial Knights, and St. Celestine. My goal is not to provide a template for high end army building, but rather to discuss each unit, it’s options, it’s uses, and show the ways it can be used, to the extent it can be used. As before, I am going to rate units on a four point scale: Casual, semi-competitive, competitive, highly competitive. Casual means that a unit has such problems that it likely can’t be included in any list intended for tournament play, but may have some fun options for mega battles or scenarios. Semi competitive units are either broadly underwhelming, or are narrow in their strengths, and will be included sparingly in tournament winning lists, but can still appear in solid lists. Competitive units are units that are either broadly useful, or have some options that allow them to be key parts of top lists. Highly competitive units are those that can be the foundation for tournament lists, or are otherwise wildly overpower or under costed. These grades don’t always account for player skill, but can help a newer player guide their choices for what to buy, and also can help clarify when I like an option, or see it as fun, and when it is actually effective. Another hope is to provide a resource for new players so that they understand some of the less obvious aspects of playing the army.

One of the things that I will freely admit to is that much of what I’m writing is based on theory hammer, but obviously play experiences trump theory. While I am writing this as a committee of one, I encourage anybody with differing, alternative, or additional opinions to share them. I make no claims to speaking for the community, but I do want to reflect consensus as much as possible.



Intro:

The Astra Militarum has two army wide rules. The first is the often replicated <regiment> keyword, which ties models to a single regiment. For armies built entirely of “generic” units, this doesn’t matter much, but if using a special character, you will want to key as many forces as possible to the same <regiment> as the special character. This is an elegant solution to the problem of heroes from two distinct regiments (or chapters, klans, etc.) from sharing their buffs with basic troops. Now, if you want your units to benefit from Harker’s aura, they cannot be given orders by Creed or Pask. None of the AM special characters seem like auto-includes, so that gives us some interesting options for army building. The other wrinkle is that Scions, Scion command, and Tempestor Primes are all automatically keyed to <Militarum Tempestus>, so Company commanders cannot give orders to Scions, and Tempestors cannot give orders to regular infantry. Plan accordingly!

One trick denied by the FAQ was declaring Militarum Auxilia as a regiment for your officer. You cannot do that, so there is now now way to issue orders to Ogryn or Ratlings.

The more bespoke rule that the AM have is the orders systems, which have gotten a pretty strong overhaul. The orders have, for the most part, been toned down, or more correctly, evened out, in strength. They also can only be given to units 6” form the office. In return, they now automatically succeed, and all officers know all orders. As officers have gotten cheaper (sort of, see below) and much easier to keep alive, orders have shifted from a layered on bonus to an essential part of how the army works. Properly played, an AM army uses it’s orders to expand the tactical options and enhance the firepower of its units.

The bread and butter order is Take Aim!, which is the clear favorite for overcharged plasmas, as it allows all ones to hit to be rerolled. Keep in mind that rerolling ones on a BS4+ model raises the likelihood of hitting from 50% to only about 58%, or about a 16% increase in firepower. When a 30pt Commander gives orders to two 72 point triple lascannon Heavy Weapon squads, you get an 18% bump in damage for a 21% price premium. And most target squads will be even cheaper! In other words, this isn’t the most cost effective strategy, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a nice order. Commanders do a lot more, and they can fight a bit (or with dirt cheap plasma even shoot a little bit). Also, the reduced size of deployment zones means that the old IG adage of “bring more men and fewer” buffs runs into its own diminishing returns as you run out of good places to bring even more men.

A very similar order is Bring it down!, which allows the unit to re-roll ones to wound. Mathematically, there is little difference in expected damage output between rerolling hits and wounds, although running the numbers does show that it is slightly better to re-roll the more difficult roll, which means you should re-roll hits for high strength weapones (plasma, melta, Missile, Lascannon), and re-roll wounds when shooting low to mid strength weapons against high toughness. The problem is that the most likely source of 5+ and 6+ wounds are lasguns, and if you're making decisions based on lasguns doing work, you don't want to use either of these orders. As long as you Take aim when shooting is harder than wounding, and Bring it down when wounding is harder than hitting, you'll be fine. If you end up in a situation where you are shooting all of a squads firepower into a tank, or shooting something like mortars or heavy bolters against high toughness, this order is the smart play. One thing to keep in mind is that if your'e not shooting high strength weapons, and the squad has lasguns, FRF!SRF! does more damage. Most of the time, if you're using this order, things are going pear shaped. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, but this should be the least used order, with two huge exception: BS3+ Meltas on Toughness 8+, and snipers. One common pattern will be scions or veterans shooting a melta gun at Toughness 8 or higher models, which is a 3+/4+. The math shows to use Bring it Down! Here instead of Take Aim.
Since snipers do an additional mortal wound on a wound roll of 6+, fishing for sixes is a smart play. How smart relying on snipers can be is an exercise left to the reader. On the other hand, Psykers are a much easier path to laying a few mortal wounds.

First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! is the order to use when you are relying on lasguns to do work, as it double the shots the squad receives, to 2 at 24" and 4 within 12". however, this order is about more than just clearing grunts. Because lasguns can wound any model in the game, FRF!SRF! also doubles lasgun damage against vehicles. I ran the numbers for T3/5+, t4/3+, T4/2+, T7/3+, T8/3+, and T8/2+. For the latter four, I counted plasma wounds twice, and lascannon wounds as 3.5 for the vehicles, and 11/6 for terminators (averaging a one and five twos for the six possible damage rolls). For both 12" and 24" range, FRF!SRF! actually outperforms Take Aim for GEQ and MEQ targets, and also does better against light vehicles (T5/3+). To oversimplify, use this order when shooting at infantry , and Take Aim when firing Plasma, ML, and LC against hard targets.

Moving away from pure damage and into toolbox territory is Forwards for the Emperor! which allows a unit to fire after advancing. This is clearly a niche order, but should never be neglected. There is nothing stopping an officer from giving orders after he himself advances, so an officer can keep up with running conscripts and still have them fire, or allow a unit with meltas to really close into short range. While this might not always be useful, when it is, it could be game changer. After all, compared to a minor bump in efficacy, being able to fire weapons at all because you ran into range is a huge benefit! Be watchful for opportunities to use this one.
The real gem of the orders is Get Back in the Fight, which allows a unit that Fell Back to shoot. Without another order, and with a -1 to heavy weapons for having moved, the unti won't be at it's most effective, but getting to shoot at all is good, and for some units (scions with four plasma/melta), it can be punishing. Since controlling the line of battle is key to 8th, this is likely the first order you should use given the opportunity.

Move!Move!Move! now allows a unit, instead of shooting, to move as if it were the movement phase, and the unit must advance and cannot charge this turn. A strict reading of the advance rules says you cannot advance twice, but still, moving a unit 12+d6" in one turn is pretty speedy for the normally stodgy AM. This another kind of goofy order, in that while it allows a unit to move fast, it also requires an officer within 6”. The most readily apparent use of this order is to move a squad onto an objective, and it's really hard to to disagree with that. I can also help shift bubblewrap very quickly, or even allow a player to shift squads from one flank to another with decent, but not overwhelming speed. Another ability to keep filed away for occasional use.

Finally, Fix Bayonets! causes a unit engaged to immediately fight as if it were the Fight phase. This gives a unit the opportunity to swing twice, but it also allows units a chance to kill the enemy, and free themselves to shot and charge a different unit. If a unit is being tied up by a small handful of enemy models, this could allow it to fight, kill them, and then shoot/charge again! Outside of units tied up by the smallest enemy squads, the clear use of this is on Conscripts, which might do enough damage to free themselves from combat. Even if they do not, they might do enough to force a nasty morale check. A key consideration is if the squad involved should simply fall back, and be given get back in the fight. That allows more friendly squads to pour in firepower as well. Still, a unit that falls back cannot charge, while a unit that wipes out it's enemy with this order could. This prevents your Conscripts from being held up by a handful of light troops. Bonus tip: Priests War Hymns adds one to the attacks characteristics of units within 6”, which would also include while fighting under this order.



The Armory
Before I jump into the individual units, I thought I’d discuss the various options available as upgrades.  These are divided fairly neatly into Ranged, Special, Heavy, and Melee weapons, with Ranged and Melee generally being upgrades for characters or unit leaders and Specials and Heavies being upgrades for squads or vehicles.  Not all are available to all models, but generally when a unit allows a model to choose, they can pick whatever they want.

Melee
GW has finally realized that AM characters don’t get quite the same utility from their power weapons as Space Marines, and has lowered the points cost dramatically for melee options.  Much like in 6th/7th, models select from Power Swords, Power Axes, and Power Mauls, with many characters also having an option for the Power Fist.  Power Swords use the models strength, but have AP3, Axes are +1S and SP2, while Mauls are +2S and AP1.  Powerfists, when available still double the strength, but now have AP3 and d3 damage. However, when swinging, the model has -1 to hit. 
One of the subtle changes to 8th edition has been to simply get rid of the overly complicated rules for gaining an attack while using a pistol and close combat weapon.  Instead, models simply use the attacks profile (what a concept), while dedicated assault troops and leaders often come base with a chainsword, which allows the model to attack one extra time when using that weapon.   For the AM, taking a melee weapon requires trading in the chainsword, so any power weapon attacks will be based solely on the Attacks characteristic.  Running some simple math for the three basic types shows that the Power Ax remains the clear favorite for a S3 model, with the Maul nosing ahead for higher toughness, very low armor save models like orks, while the powersword is more competitive for 2+ saves, or when all of the weapons are wounding on 5’s anyway.  The spread isn’t horrible, even the basic sword won’t hold you back.  The ax, somewhat amusingly, is a whole point more than the maul or sword, at 5pts instead of 4pt.  At 10 points, the fist is a bit more of an investment, and due to being -1 to hit, probably wants to go on models with good WS and high attacks (read, Company commanders and Lord Commissars).  At S6, AP3, with d3 damage, the fist will bring the pain, but unlike plasma, I would be judicious in how many I would buy. 
 
 
 
Ranged
AM characters don’t  have a deep bench of ranged options.  Most come base with a laspistols, while commissars tool around with a fancy bolt pistol.  Any character or sergeant can upgrade to a bolt pistol or bolter for a mere point, while the plasma pistol is now a very reasonable 5pts.  Plasma pistols can overcharge, just like the special weapons, and pistols can be fired even when the squad is engaged with an enemy unit, although this requires that a unit survive at least one fight phase, which is never a safe bet.  Still, plasma pistols are now a perfectly fine choice.  I would focus them on BS3+ characters, but at 5pts they are simply cheap enough and good enough to spam.  The bolt options are too cheap to ignore.  The bolter is objectively superior now that it doesn’t limit the models attacks or preclude it from charging, but if you’re like me and have models with bolt pistols, I’m not sure I’d be cutting models up for an extra shot!  From a damage per point perspective, adding a bolter to virtually every model that can take one makes sense.
 
Special Weapons
The AM retain the five special weapons from earlier editions: sniper rifle, Grenade Launcher, flamer, meltagun, and plasma gun.   I have a long standing theory that GW struggles to differentiate more than three options for any given squad, and that is even more true here than normal, as there is virtually no application for grenade launchers, and a very narrow one for sniper rifles.

Grenade Launchers have been mediocre for multiple editions, and despite making the obvious fix by upping them to Assault 2, GW has simply doubled down on their somewhat dubious flexibility in 8th.  That flexibility is the sole redeeming quality of the weapon, in that it can credibly be used against both light infantry and medium infantry/light vehicles with at least modest expectations.  In Frag mode, the weapon has d6 shots at S3 AP-, while the Krak grenade is S6, AP1, damage d3.  Krak is clearly inferior to plasma for only two points more, but Frag actually does decent work at range against light models such as guardsmen or orks.  The problem is that the frag grenade is actually worse than a basic lasgun at 12” with FRF!SRF!, and somewhat surprisingly, worse against even guardsmen compared to a rapid firing plasma gun. 

Okay, so the Grenade Launcher is garbage… is there any way to use it?  Surprisingly, a little bit.  The basic advantage of Grenade Launchers is that they are assault weapons, so they can advance and still shoot a little bit.  This allows a squad that is mostly moving to still contribute a bit.  24” range is pretty good, and certainly outclasses the flamer. One way to think about the grenade launcher is that if if fires three times as often as a flamer, it will be more effective. So, you can argue that instead of a flamer on an objective camper, a grenade launcher could do more. Which is fine, but a plasma gun does even more! And while flamers won't always fire, they will pretty frequently. Still, there are (slightly) worse ways to spend 44 points than a command squad with four grenade launchers. [Author's note: guess who painted up four more grenade launchers in the weeks prior to the launch of 8th edition, on the notion that they couldn't possibly stay that bad...]

Sniper Rifles are the special weapon choice that everybody forgets, even if they've been in the codex for multiple editions now, in some flavor. They are super cheap, they are 36” range, they can target characters freely, and they are S4. Also, on a 6+ to wound, they pop for a moral wound, in addition to the regular wound. The problem is two fold: they available for cheap on Ratlings, along with infiltrate and shoot and scoot, making basic infantry not the best platform. Second... they just aren't all that great. Even in a mirror match up, trying snipe commissars is harder than it looks, and against anything tougher, the Vindicare is super tempting. They are also heavy weapons, and 8th edition is even more mobile than past editions, making long ranges static firepower less appealing... especially when that firepower isn't overwhelming. I guess they can be taken in SWS for 30pts, which is dirt cheap.... but so is an infantry squad with heavy and special weapon. I say keep them on ratlings unless you really like your sniper models, in which case I'd take them in command squads for BS3+ and a fourth sniper rifle.

The gap between the sniper rifle and the meltagun is probably the biggest on this list, as the melta gun has a clear mission profile: wasting large models at very close range. While overcharged plasmas are close to as effective as meltas, meltas bring an extra AP, and the crucial two dice, pick the highest for damage. That shakes out to an average of about 4.5, while ignoring 3+ saves. While it might be tempting to load up deepstrikers with meltas, those units cannot land within 9” of an enemy unit, so they'll be denied the extra dice. Overcharged plasma can shoot twice at 9”, doing two damage per shot. Even so, AP4 helps, and against 3+ saves and above, meltas at longer range out punch plasma. This is not a weapon for footsloggers, although as assault weapons they can advance and still fire at -1 to hit. Scions or transports are the friends of this very short range, very powerful weapon. I'll be talking more about this weapon in the appropriate unit entry, but in general veterans and command squads like this gun while riding in a chimera or valkyrie, and scions of all type love it.

It's interesting when a new edition comes out and GW clearly sees that the meta will shift, and makes a price change preemptively. Prices for the humble flamer (and less humble heavy flamer) went up in nearly all applications, as the old template weapon instead became an 8” range, d6 automatic hits. Two things to cool off anybody getting overheated: 8” is pretty short (and outside of deep strike range), and d6 S4 hits aren't changing the world. In prior editions, template weapons were hard to pull off, but could absolutely murder light infantry by covering fistsfuls of models under the template, having AP5, and ignoring cover. Now, best case scenario you hit 6 models, who get their full saves, as well as cover. This is, ironically, a fantastic change for IG, who will now lose only a few models from even the best set up flamer shot. However, for us, our bulk flamers lose some luster in raw damage. On the flip side, the flamer has greater general utility. While the template was roughly 8” long, at that range it might only hit one model, while now a flamer in range gets the full d6. Also, while it does not ignore cover, always hitting ignores modifiers that make hitting harder, including various stealth rules, advancing, and even airborne! Oh... and during overwatch... where you'll now do some guaranteed hits if the charging squad starts within range. Overall, I'm not as bullish on the flamer as some, but it's a weapon with both offensive and defensive punch, and goes great with squads that plan on shooting at other infantry. Also, 45 pts buys you a SWS with three of 'em, which makes a nice little counter charge unit.

Finally, the once and future king, the plasma gun returns to his rightful place as the premium weapon. It's hard to explain how much better plasma is than every other weapon in all but the narrowest of roles. Meltas do better against the hardest targets (T7, T8/3+, and up), and flamers against light infantry, but plasmas excel against a broad range of targets, from the basic MEQ (marine equivalent), through most two wound infantry and any 4+ save high toughness models, or any model with a 5++ invulnerable save or better. Even against melta targets, the ability to overcharge and hit at S8 with Damage 2 allows the plasma gun to really acquit itself. Perhaps shockingly, the plasma gun runs the same price as the flamer and is five points cheaper than a melta gun. While five to ten points should never stand between an AM player and the right weapon for the role they want, the plasma gun is stupidly good for a very nice price.
As alluded to, plasma can now be fired in two roles, the first of which is identical in function to what we know and love: rapid fire 1, 24” range, S7, AP3, Damage 1. However, the gets hot rule is gone! Now, when supercharged, where the Strength and Damage each bump up one, a roll to hit of one causes the firing model to be removed after all shooting is resolved. Keep in mind that if there are negative modifiers to hit, for example against an airborne target, then a roll of 2 counts as a 1, making the supercharge more deadly. Use against hard to hit targets at risk. Still, the synergy between supercharging and the Take Aim! Order should be obvious, reducing the risk of losing a model from one in six (~16%.7) to one in 36 (2.7%). While overcharging should only be done when necessary, against T7 or higher targets, or those with multiple wounds,(or in direst need, against T4, where S8 wounds on a 2+ but S7 does not) don’t' be too afraid of losing models. A final minor buff is that in 8th edition, units can charge after firing rapid fire weapons, so plasmas can fire and then charge... which might actually be a decent idea at times! Overall, the plasma gun is the most useful weapon, and also fills a role least served by heavy weapons or vehicles. Competitive AM armies are going to include a lot of plasma, and flamers and melta to taste.

Heavy Weapons
The humble mortar really benefited from the changes in 8th edition, with it's prior small blast marker exchanged for d6 shots, which helps from both a gameplay and logistical perspective, and rolling all of those dumb little markers took forever. The mortar is still pillowfisted, averaging just under two S4 hits a turn, which aren't going to turn the tide. At five points, with 48” range and no need for line of sight, it's a fun option for heavy weapon squads (seriously, 27 points for 3d6 shots a turn). I suppose very front line squads that are built to take a charge might go for mortars over the heavy bolter, but for a few points more I like the 3+ to wound T4 and the AP1. Still, moving from “basically useless” to “nifty little support unit” is a big step for the mortar.

Speaking of the other anti-infantry heavy weapon, the heavy bolter also loves it some 8th edition, most notably gaining AP1, which means it does some work even against marines. As always, it doesn't really get enough shots to clear hordes, it isn't accurate or strong enough to damage anything tough, and while cheap, that only really helps on heavy weapon squads and vehicles. The reality of 8th edition, with first turn charges and plenty of movement, is that your front line is going to get mulched. Keep 'em cheap, and the heavy bolter has the range and ability to meaningfully threaten enough units to make it a good choice. On vehicles, I'd remember that moving give them a -1 to hit, which means one S5, AP1 hit per heavy bolter on the move. How valuable that is to you is going to correlate strongly with how many heavy bolter sponsons you'll be strapping on all over the place. In short, the Heavy Bolter is the cheapest weapon for a direct fire squad, and is great in heavy weapon squads (40pts for 9 shots!) and pretty decent in screening infantry squads. Veterans can shoot something better.

The Autocannon continues it's nearly 20 year run as the AM (formerly IG) weapon with the most convoluted ideal target. It's tough to really tell what the Autocannon is good at. It has a long range, S7, AP1, and Damage 2, all with two shots. Against Rhinos (or other T7, 3+ save models) it does a half damage per turn (½ to hit, ½ to wound, ½ to save with AP1, two shots, two damage per hit. That's respectable, but the lascannon averages nearly a full wound a turn (½ to hit, 2/3 to wound, 5/6 failed saves, d6 damage for 3.5 on average. Against higher toughness or better saves, the lascannon continues to pull away. Against two wound bikes, the autocannon does better, and since damage cannot spill over, the autocannon has a chance to kill two bikes. (It's 1/36, but still). One of the best targets, somewhat ironically, are IG weapon bases, which the Autocannon wounds on a 2+ and instant kills. Other good targets are multiwound models with only invulnerable saves, or low saves such as Ork Nobs. If the lascannon is going to bounce anyway, the autocannon (doing two damage with two shots) will average more wounds than the lascannon. The basic autocannon competes directly with the lascannon in most applications, and at 15pts per, I would pay a little extra and get the real deal.

The Missile Launcher is back with a pretty decent dual shot option. The frag missile is a standard d6 S4 shots, while Krak is S8, Ap2, and d6 Damage. So, it's either an expensive direct fire mortar, or a poor man's lascannon. At 20 points it's the same price as an actual lascannon, which is notably superior against enemy armor. Mathhammer says as much, but so does watching enemy tanks bounce Krak Missiles on 5+ saves, or failing to wound a superheavy on a 4+. The real problem with dual purpose weapons for the AM is that we can bring so darn many. When you can easily drop a dozen heavy weapons, take a few of each specialist, instead of generalists. Instead of four missile Launchers, you can take two lascannons and two heavy bolters, and have more effective weapons. Still, in smaller games, the missile launcher isn't the worst option in an infantry squad, but even if I'm playing a big enough game that I want to use my Missile Launchers, I'd rather rep them as lascannons!

The lascannon got a fantastic boost in 8th edition, keeping it's S9 and going to AP3, but gaining d6 Damage. This is your long range heavy killer. It wounds even landraiders on a 3+, and turns a 3+ save into a 6+. It's damage is swingy but is a great place for a command die re-roll. Especially now that split fire allows you to shoot the lascannon independently of the lasguns, basic infantry squads with a big gun are even better. At Bs4+, you'll need more lascannons to destroy a tank than you think, but no gun that's widely available does it better. HWS with triple lascannons are a bit pricey and fragile, and will attract a lot of attention, but really do threaten any non-super heavy model. At least until the meta shifts hard to hordes, the lascannon is going to be the go-to heavy weapon in the armory.

While not available to heavy weapon teams, the heavy flamer is a big part of the AM list, as an option for nearly every vehicle, and also as an add-on to veterans and command. Even more than the basic flamer, the heavy flamer was very conservatively priced. At 17 points, it rates between an autocannon and the Lascannon, and believe it or not, it's worth it. As before, the AM actually benefit a lot from the changes, both while shooting and being shot. Previously, the heavy flamer was wickedly effective against IG, wounding on 2s with no save or cover. Now? Wounding on 3s, while still giving up a 6+ save. On offense, the heavy flamer gains AP1, making it do pretty decent work against anything without a 2+ save. Really, the heavy flamers damage output doesn't along justify the price, but rather the ability to always hit. Compared to a single heavy bolter hit (when moving), heavy flamers do d6 while in range, and with 10” moves on most tanks, that's a big threat range. I'll be talking about the weapon in more detail in the individual units that excel with them, but the existence of the heavy flamer puts pressure on all other mid range shooting.

The multi-melta shows up in two major applications: as a pair of sponsons on the Leman Russ Chassis, or as a hull weapon on the hellhound chassis. It's pretty much exactly what you'd expect, a meltagun with 24” range, that rolls two dice, pick the highest, for damage within half range. In general, it suffers from wanting to move to get a good shot, but then being a 5+ to hit. At 20pts per, it's the same cost as a lascannon for nearly the same damage output (-1 strength, but an extra AP) with half the range. I think I'd generally stick with lascannons where I can, and avoid expensive upgrades of already pricy base models.

The plasma cannon shows up in two places: the armored sentinel, and the sponsons of the leman russ. The cannon is just a giant plasma gun, with 36” range, and heavy d3, and the same option to overcharge. A roll of one will straight up destroy the sentinel, while leman russes have a rule that instead they just take six mortal wounds, and the model cannot fire any plasma cannon again that game. So... don't supercharge unless you're comfortable with tank losing half it's wounds and firepower about 30% of the time. Even in basic mode, the plasma cannon is a fine weapon, with the usual caveats about not moving. Still... plasma is widely and readily available in the troops slot, and I'm not sure I'd pay such a large premium for a bit of range trading rapid fire 1 for heavy d3.

Finally, of the common weapons, the multilaser is last, and unfortunately, the least. No weapon class took a bigger hit in 8th than mid strength weapons with lousy AP, and the multilaser is the lousiest of the bunch. Literally unchanged from prior editions, the multilaser has no AP, no damage multiplier, and only three shots. With the new wound charts, they don't even wound marines on 2+s anymore. If very cheap, such as five points, or even free bundled with the vehicle chassis, the mutli-laser would be wimpy but fine, especially since two of it's primary mounts are transports. Instead, it's more than a heavy bolter, despite being clealry inferior. A weapon that struggled to accomplish much in the past will now face a world with no AV10 targets and a -1 to hit if the model moves (which transports will!). It was a good run, multi-laser, but all things must end!

In addition to the main weapons, there are three weapons that nearly all of the tanks can take as upgrades. The Hunter Killer missile is a single shot Krak missile that can be only fired once. At 6pts, it's actually a decent buy on any tank that doesn't move. Perversely, it cannot be take by a Taurox Prime. The heavy stubber is the same as always, but much cheaper at 4pts. For static, long range vehicles, such as artillery, it's a good buy. However, the changes to stormbolters, going to rapid fire 2, make them the clear favorite, at a trivial 2pts. Two shots at 24” and four at 12”, and no -1 for moving, make it almost a no brainer for any mobile vehicle. Perversely, sentinels cannot take this.

Headquarters

Like elsewhere in the list, the AM HQ choices are simple, utilitarian, and cheap, but in numbers, they become quite potent. Nearly all of them favor buffs and upgrades to raw damage dealing, but that doesn't make them any less valuable.

Company Commanders
After years of bundling officers with their command squads, the Index now free commander to be characters, which allows them to hide more discreetly among a range of squads. This is, for the most part, a really good thing, as it's now a lot easier to prevent a company commander from being shot up early in the game. Outside of that, the actual model has made a pretty straight forward conversion to 8th edition. He hits on a 3+ in both shooting and melee, he has human standard Strength and Toughness of 3, and he has four wounds and three attacks with a 5+ save and a 5++ invulnerable. He's not exactly tough, but between being a character and a decent amount of wounds, he'll take more than incidental shooting to kill. His big feature is being a senior officer, dishing out two orders a turn. All of this is quite cheap. For those that want a more aggressive leader, his three attacks make good use of a power ax of power fist, while he's a good shot with a plasma pistol. Even “fully kitted” he's cheaper than a scout sentinel. Still, with only three attacks, he's not even killing one space marine a turn, but he takes 14 space marine attacks back to be killed.
As hinted at above, part of the skill in building a list will be balancing the number of officers to the number of squads. You want to provide adequate support, but you don't want officers sitting idle. Also, the orders don't dramatically improve the firepower of the target units, aside from FRF!SRF!, which only doubles the lasguns. Still, Get back in the Fight! Alone can come in huge. I'd look to include one for every three to five squads, allowing them to cover some territory and provide buffs. The best way to determine how many to bring is to play this one out. Outside of Get Back in the Fight!, I think you'll find that most of the orders are pretty minor in effect, and it is often better to have more steak and less sizzle.
Overall: Highly Competitive

Tank Commander
Two units in, and we have a Leman Russ. Oh, Imperial Guard, you are awesome. The Tank Commander is a Leman Russ chassis, with all of the options for turret, hull, and sponson weapons. In addition, It gains the ability to give one Tank Order a turn, from its custom set of three, to a non-character Leman Russ within 6”. This all runs 35 points more than a basic Leman Russ. In general, your view of this unit will wax or wane with your view of Leman Russes (to be discussed later), but for now, let's take a deep dive on the orders.

Full Throttle! Allows a tank to make an additional move, with advance, instead of shooting. For when you really need that 20+d6” move with a Russ, this order is there. Since Russes have ample range, this is really about either late game objective grabbing, or moving a fireball Russ (three heavy flamers) closer to a viable target. Best case scenario, either way, is that you have a Leman Russ not shooting, which I think makes this is very corner case order. Still, you will eventually see a time to use this, and you will love it!
Gunners, Kill on Sight!, is the aggressively re-titled “Take Aim!” It allows the Russ to re-roll 1s to hit, which as we've exhaustively shown, is kind of meh for most guns, but amazingly good for plasma. The optimist would point out that using this order reduces the chance of losing wounds to plasma overheats, allowing you to rebuild the classic 5th edition all plasma executioner. The pessimist would point out that doing so requires a pretty expensive executioner, as well as the tank commander, and losing either one affects the synergy pretty profoundly. In a tank heavy force, this works, but I'm not sure I'd build a tournament army around the combo.
Finally, Strike and Shroud! Simply allows a Leman Russ to pop smoke launchers after shooting. This is a secretly great ability, as -1 to hit is a big deal, but Leman Russes can't normally afford to give up shooting. OTOH, when you pop smoke with one tank, it just means the other ones are going to get shot. Still, used timely, it can protect the most threatening tank a little bit.
Overall, the orders, much like the infantry ones, are pleasant little buffs, and not game changers. It allows you to build a legal Armored Company list using the Spearhead Detachment (HQ and heavy supports).

The other major change for the commander over the basic Russ starting at BS3+. Obviously, a Russ that hits more frequently is a good choice, and the jump from 4+ to 3+ is a 33% increase in damage output for a roughly 30% (or lower) cost. All in all, the Commander is a nice upgrade for the Leman Russ... however, it's overall efficacy is tied to the Leman Russ. I'll obviously discuss them in greater detail below, but the commander only helps one of the Russes problems, it's surprisingly low damage output. Outside of Strike and Shroud!, the Commander doesn't help the durability of other Russes, and has the same defensive profile as the basic Russ. While reasonably durable, it seems likely that an enemy that wants to destroy the commander will do so turn one. With little ability to hide otherwise, (the advanced rules for terrain require non-infantry to be 50% obscured to gain cover, and the model still must be wholly within the terrain feature), be careful buying an expensive unit like this. Still, if your meta shifts to more assault armies that can't erase a Leman Russ a turn with shooting, this really buffs an armored task force.
Overall: Semi-Competitive.

Lord Commissar
First off, a Lord Commissar is everything that a basic Commissar is, so much of the discussion about Aura of Discipline or Summary Execution will be below. Unlike prior editions, the Lord does not have any special rules to distinguish himself from his basic peers, but rather an upgraded profile. BS/WS 2+, an extra wound and pip of leadership, carapace armor for a 4+ save, and a 5++ refractor field are the main differences, along with the requirement to buy a power sword, or other Melee weapon from the list. Somewhat oddly, Commissars can explicitly buy two different Melee weapons, which I assume has less to do with the rules than it does with GW selling a lot of commissar models with a powerfist and powersword, or other combination. So, factoring in the mandatory power sword, is a Lord worth 24pts over a basic commissar? Yeah, probably. There are basically two theories with AM characters: the first is to keep them cheap and focus on the steak, not the sizzle. The other is to see them as fairly cheap platforms for BS3+ plasma and/or WS3+, 3Attack power weapons. One at a time they are barely chaff, but two or three characters, all with power weapons, can do the work of countercharge. From that standpoint, if you have the HQ slots, why not spend a few points to turn your morale backstop into a plasma spitting, power ax wielding hero? Instead of spending the points an eversor assassin or squad or rough riders, you could upgrade a commissar to a lord, buy power weapons and pistols for two company commanders, and even toss in a priest for the +1 attack buff. In the end, if all you care about is keeping your men in line, than the basic commissar is fine, but the lord is a legit fighter for only twice the price.
Overall: semi-competitive

Tempestor Prime
Much like the line regiments, the Scions lost their bundled officer and command squad combinations, and instead can buy the heroes ala carte. The Prime has the same stat-line as the Company Commander, gaining a 4+ basic save but losing the refractor field. He comes with a hot-shot laspistol, and can get a chainsword for free, or buy a melee weapon. He can upgrade the laspistol to a bolt pistol or plasma pistol, or can trade it for the Tempestus Command Rod. As the Prime is not a Senior officer, he only can give one order a turn base, but with the Command Rod he can again get two. Giving up a single pistol shot is a no brainer if you have two Scion squads in your army, as the orders are much better than even a hot shot laspistol. Much like the Scions, the Prime has Aerial Drop which essentially allows him to deepstrike at will at the end of the movement phase. As he's bereft of weapons, you can always drop him back a bit, but within 6” to order his squads.
Orders with the Prime are pretty similar to the Captain, but due to the ability of Scions or Scion Command to take four special weapons, Take Aim! Is mostly likley your go-to order when you drop (especially if overcharging plasma), but don't overlook FRF!SRF! In the later turns, and as always, Get Back in the Fight! Can make killing off the Scions annoying to the extreme. This isn't a complicated unit, it drops in near two squads, and provides orders to them. For pretty cheap, you get protection against overcharging for 8 plasma guns, or 20 more Hot Shot Lasgun shots! They're a cheap buffing unit for arguably the strongest units in the codex, so they deserve a spot in any list.
Overall: Highly Competitive

Primaris Psyker
For reasons unknowable, the three psychic units from the old AM codex were split off into a sub-faction, the Astra Telepathica. They retain the Astra Militarum keyword, so they can still be included, but you have to go to a different section of the Index. Anyway, the Primaris is pretty unchanged. He has pretty standard stats, with a laspistol and force staff, and he knows Smite and two powers from Psykana. In an interesting twist, It's For Your Own Good no longer is a penalty, but instead simply means that if the psyker dies to Perils within 6”of a commissar, he does not explode, as the watchful Commissar simply executed him.
The Psykana Discipline, like most others, has three powers. Terrifying Visions subtracts two from leadership from an enemy unit within 18”, but requires a Warp Charge of 7. Gaze of the Emperor is only a Warp Charge 6, and draws a line 2d6” from the psyker. Roll a die for each model covered, on a 4+ the unit takes a mortal wound. Psychic Barrier gives a +1 to saving throws for one unit within 12”, on a Warp Charge of 6. The early buzz is for Gaze, for the ability to pile on mortal wounds, but I see 2d6” as pretty short. Still, this is a “one good shot” type of weapon, and on a relatively cheap AM psyker you don’t' need to get that many mortal wounds to make up it's cost. Terrify is somewhat straightforward, but is best used against a squad that's taken a lot of damage, and is already in the danger zone. Something like a Leadership 7 unit that lost four models is a good target, as a decent roll will start gutting the squad. This power doesn't do much on it's own, and AM should be trying to wipe out units, but it's a strong second pick. Psychic Barrier is the power that really gets the mind thinking, as it can affect anything up to superheavy tanks. This is a very straightforward power, as it simply makes one unit more durable. It also stacks with cover. Give a Baneblade a 2+, Give a veteran squad in cover a 3+, or make a giant conscript platoon even harder to shift.

The rap on the Primaris is that outside of Smite, the Astropath does everything he does, but cheaper. Of course, the Primaris is pretty cheap already, and unlike the astropath, can fight a little. He also knows two powers instead of one. If you're trying to wring every point out of your list, than the Primaris can't compete with Astropath, but he's still a darn good unit in his own right.
Overall: Competitive.

Commissar Yarrick
Old man Yarrick, the terror of the greenskin, is the most expensive infantry character available to the AM, combining several strong aura buffs with some choppy hand to hand ability. First off, he's a commissar, meaning he had Summary Execution and Aura of Discipline, so he can share his LD9 and prevent more than one moral casualty in nearby squads. He has a 4++ save and T4, and can ignore losing his last wound on a 3+, meaning he should hopefully stick around a bit. He has a powerfist, a stormbolter, a bolt pistol, and effectively a hotshot laspistol (bale eye). Remember that a model can shoot multiple weapons, but can only either shoot pistols or non-pistols, and the stormbolter will usually be the smarter choice, unless locked in combat.
The sort of big ticket rule for Yarrick is the Hero of Hades Hive, which is the pretty standard rule a lot of heroes have in 8th: re-roll ones to hit within 6”. His rule has the twist of allowing re-rolls of all failed hits when attacking Orks. Generally, I do not like rules that only work against a single faction, because they are of no value (or of intermittent value) in take all comers lists, while they smack of impropriety when you know what your enemy is bringing. Editorializing aside, Yarrick is the only source for re-rolling all ones to hit in the AM list, although Harker allows ones in shooting to be re-rolled. In many ways, Yarrick does the job of both a company commander and a commissar, in that he gives every unit within 6” the equivalent of Take Aim! (which also works in combat) and provides for their morale. One key thing to remember is that you can layer an order on top of this aura, for example giving a squad Bring it Down! To re-rolls ones both to hit and to wound. It also layers with War Hymns or Cold Steel and Courage (Straken's aura). Still, the AM aren't going to build a new death start unit any time soon. The other key thing to notice about Hero of Hades Hive is that it is any Astra Militarum Unit, and is not limited to a specific regiment. Scions, Auxilia, Priests, they all benefit from it.

So how do you get the most out of Yarrick? He clearly pays points for his aura and his combat durability, both of which are unique in the codex. His damage output is no different from a Lord Commissar with powerfist, nor are his number of wounds, he's not holding up against a large number of attacks. Iron Will can keep him alive for a while, and it's easy to treat it like two extra wounds, but every time you fail that roll on the first time, he's just a four wound chump. So, while he cannot take on huge squads on his own, he can hold up a squad for a turn or two. The problem is that he's a character that wants to do two things: buff a gunline, and fight in combat. Against a lot of enemies (orks, Chaos, space marines, Nids) you can castle up, shoot the enemy as they come in, and then counter-charge the survivors. Its' old fashions defensive IG work, and it can win games against those enemies. However, those armies with mobile shooting might not be trying to crash your lines, and instead, they'll shoot you up piece meal. Keep in mind that Yarrick cannot sit behind a line of infantry and heavy weapon squads, buffing them, and then wade out and krump heads in every game. That said, he's a bit harder to kill than anything else have, and his aura really is hard to come by. I think he's too pricy for tournament lists, but he's a great piece for narrative games.
Overall: semi-competitive

Lord Castellan Creed
The hero of Cadia, Creed is the thinking man's special character, with minimal combat ability but a couple of neat buffs. In terms of stats, he's identical to the basic Company Commander but has LD9. He comes with a pair of hot shot pistols and a power sword, which makes him not completely pitiful in close combat, but with limited wounds, S3, and only three attacks, he's not going to want to be in combat. What he does want to do is dish out orders, which he does better than anybody, getting three per turn! He also, if selected as the warlord, gives you two additional Command Points. Those are two nice abilities, as both orders and command points are valuable. However, I'm not sure their worth the point cost. Creed is basically the same price as two Company Commanders with plasma pistols. Not only does he have one fewer order than a pair of captains, he can only be in one place, limiting your coverage for orders. As I'll discuss below, the ability to give an extra order is costed at just under 10 points, which means buying Creed is basically paying about 20 points for two command points. He also locks you into being <Cadia>. Overall, there are certainly worse ways to spend the points than a pair of command points, but AM can more easily form a brigade detachment and have ample command points. Still, I think that in lists that will only run one officer, and maybe need some command points, looking to Creed might work out.
Overall: Competitive

Knight Commander Pask
A special character Tank Commander, Pask does everything a regular tank commander does, but he does up to 11. Instead of being BS3+, he's BS2+. Instead of giving one order (to a non-character Leman Russ) he can give two orders, including other <cadian> Leman Russ Characters. Depending on how you read that, it means you can give orders to Tank Commanders, but not himself (Because he is not another character). All of this is a 45 point bump from the basic Leman Russ, or only 10 points more than a stock Tank Commander. I think the choice for a first tank character is pretty obvious. Unless you hate cadia (and remember, you can have <Cadian> tanks with <Catachan> infantry), I would buy Pask before a basic commander every time.

As for how good he is, some of that does come down to his ability to give orders to himself. If he can, he's pretty amazing, being able to shoot and pop smoke, or load up with plasma and re-roll all ones to hit. If not, he's still real good, rocking accurate shooting with support for two other Leman Russes. However, he's still only 12 wounds, and while it sounds funny to say “only” about a model with 12 wounds, lascannon or bright lance spamming armies will light him up. He also gets expensive, easily hitting 250pts with some builds. But not all armies will have kind of ranged firepower, and he will blow stuff up with the ability to take two Multi-meltas and a lascannon, plus a turret, all at BS2+.

Overall: Competitive

Colonel “Iron Hand” Straken
Switching gears to the <Catachan> part of the Imperium, Straken is in many ways a mirror image of Creed, the bellowing, hard charging hero rather than the calculating tactician. Straken starts with the basic Commander profile, but gets a wide range of buffs, with WS2+, +2 Strength, +1 toughness, an extra wound and attack, LD9, and a whopping 3+ save. He is still a senior officer, giving two orders a turn to his men, he does have a nice aura effect, in which all units within 6” at the start of the fight phase can all make one additional attack. For punching, he retains the 5+++ refractor field, and can re-roll wounds against enemy monsters. Before you get too excited, his bionic arm is only AP1 for 2 damage, making struggle to punch through the thickest chitin. He is dramatically more costly than a company commander, clocking in at the same price as three naked captains, or two with plasma pistol and fist. However, he crams a lot of utility into that package. First, he does nearly the same thing as a Priest's War Hymns, although they simply give +1 attack, which can be used with Fix Bayonets! On the flip side, his aura stacks with Priests, giving everyone within 6” of both +2 attacks in the fight phase.

It's hard to put a price on his combat performance, because one of the few models in the codex that actually wants to be in combat, and can survive it. His durability and damage is roughly comparable to a space marine hero armed with a power maul, for a comparable price, although I think I'd take Rites of Battle (re-roll all ones to hit within 6”) over Cold Steel and Courage (+1 attack in the fight phase) and two orders. OTOH, when used aggressively, Straken (especially paired with a priest) can push out a lot of attacks from catachans. The most obvious use is to pair him with large conscript squads, but the huge problem with this idea is the way that Cold Steel and Courage is written. It says that models within 6”, not units within 6”, which means that you need to give him a smaller, more compact attack wave. You could likely put him in the middle of a densely packed mob of conscripts if you really wanted though, which might be kind of cool. One possibility is to put Straken, a priest, and a veteran squad in either a Valkyrie or a chimera. Give the vets three plasmas, plasma pistol, power fist, shotguns, and heavy flamer, and get out, shoot up a tough squad, and charge in. Straken can use his second order on himself, either to Take Aim while overcharging his plasma pistol, or to Fix Bayonets! And fight twice when engaged. All in all, he's a fighty character that makes squads better in combat, but does not really naturally pair with any of the options available to him. Even fully tooled up, his Catachan shock squad is still just 10 guys with T3and 5+ saves. A third use for the big guy is to use him as a one man counter-charge element. Well, not really one man, as if you include him, you should buy power weapons for some of the infantry squads near him, but basically just drop him, and some power weapons into your firebase. He's only 50pts more than a tool up company commander, but while he cannot fight off dedicated assault troops, he can handle small squads or things like tactical squads pretty well. His Aura will buff up the squads near him, and you can turn an overrun position into a furrball. The final thing to keep in mind about him is that he's actually 20 points more than an Eversor Assassin, who is choppier, arguably more durable, and can certainly get to the fight with his extra charge distance and ability to deploy from reserves. If you're not using Straken's orders and aura, you could save the points and get a pure killer instead. Straken seems like he'd be really good in some gadget lists, and pretty solid in a balanced list with the right tweaks to benefit from his buffs.
Overall: Competitive

Uriah Jacobus
A surprise recruit to the Astra Militarum, this special character comes to use via the Adeptus Ministorum, and is in many ways a buffed Priest. He has a company commander stat-line, plus one wound and one attack. His save is only 6+, but irrelevant with a 4++ invulnerable save from a Rosarius. War Hymns gives +1 attack to all friendly Astra Militarum and Adeptus Ministorum infantry units within 6”, while his banner allows them all to also add +1 to their leadership. He also has Zealot, which allows him to re-roll hits made in a turn in which he charged, made a heroic intervention, or was charged. It's hard to tell what his role is for AM... it's not damage dealing, and aside from +1 Leadership, his aura is the same as the basic Priest at one third the price. If anybody can come up with a good use for this guy, I'm all ears. The only real use I can think of is that Uriah is the only model to give +1 Leadership to commissars, which allows you to have LD10 Lord Commissars, which means all other units within 6” of the Lord are LD10. That still seems far more expensive than just eating the loss of a model a turn, but I guess if you want to have the most stoic gunline ever, you can.
Overall: Casual


Elites
Once a relatively boring part of the army list, the Elites section has blossomed from it's past of four simple options. Two game wide trends , and one army specific one, caused a spike in the Elites section. First, command squads all shifted from HQ choices to Elites, and for the AM they became decoupled from their officers. Second, all of the support characters that used to not take up slots or were attached to command squads were all moved here. Finally, the venerable infantry platoon, a unique structure to the AM since 2nd edition in the late 1990s, was broken up, with several parts moving here to Elites. All of this makes the current Elites section a cornucopia of delights!

Master of Ordnance
For my own writing ease, I tackle these units more or less in the order of the books, and oddly, the Master of Ordnance is the first Elites choice in the Index, and the third overall. He has what Warmachine players call “victim stats,” meaning he cannot be expected to endure any actual fighting. His only wargear is a pistol. However, he has, as you'd imagine, a very nice special rule, and a nifty little aura. His aura is cunningly related to Ordnance, and the mastery of the same, giving a range of artillery vehicles the ability to re-roll ones to hit, assuming they are within 3” of the MoO, and are targeting enemy units over 36” away. With artillery being pretty good in this edition, this is a fine ability, even if the blind spot will be a factor more than you'd initially think. His other party trick is the ability to, if he did not move, shoot a battle cannon shot anywhere within 100”, with -1 to hit if the target is out of line of sight. With BS3+, that will do a bit of work. GW knows it audience by stating that only one Artillery Barrage can be fired per turn, regardless of how many models have the rule. (somewhat bizarrely, the artillery barrage is listed as a weapon profile, but not as wargear or a special rule, so technically, there's nothing saying he can actually use it.... Even more bizarrely, it's listed as a ranged weapon in the points list!) The Master is priced right around the point where you aren't going to spam him, because that would get silly and expensive, but he's cheap enough that if you run the artillery, he's a sound investment.
Overall: Competitive

Platoon Commander
To borrow another phrase from Warmachine, the Platoon Commander is an order on a stick. He doesn't do much other than provide a single order, and gives up a wound from his more senior counterpart. He does still have a refractor field, and can take the same weapons as a captain with the same skill, so he can provide some punch... but really, who isn't going to pay 10pts more for an extra wound and order? Since I've covered orders in fairly complex detail, the question for the Platoon Commander is: when would only ever want one order? The answer, simply put, is whenever you only have one squad that could benefit. If you had a squad of plasma vets in a valkyrie or Chimera, you could pay a few points for Take Aim! To avoid overcharge deaths. If you had a conscript screen that operated apart from the fire base (or you don't have a fire base at all) than a single order is all you need. Of course, captains can give the second order to themselves, allowing them to move further, fight twice, or fall back and shoot. Virtually all AM armies with basic infantry will run Company Commanders by default, but taking the Platoon Commander requires a plan. However, in those instances where the second order would be wasted, you can save a few points. Also, with command squads now limited to the number of officers, if you want to spam command squads, you'll want to include more of these guys.
Overall: competitive

Command Squad
No unit has fallen further in status than the poor command squad. In prior editions, the AM had two command squads, each permanently attached to either company or platoon commanders. Company command always had the option for standards and medics, and in more recent editions had veteran level BS. Now, they are all one, with BS3+, the abilty to take a single heavy weapon, up to four special weapons, a heavy flamer, a vox, a regimental standard, or a medipack. Unlike in prior editions, there is no real ability for the command squad to hide or gain cover, and they have no innate defensive tech such as carapace armor or camo cloaks. So, what you have are four straight shooting lads with T3 and 5+ saves, making them easy bolter bait. The initial consensus is to load them up with weapons, buy in three packs, and fill up a transport with BS3+ special weapons. I can't really disagree with that, as that will pack a hell of a wallop, and isn't all that expensive, aside from the transport. For that reason, I favor scions, but for the fans of mechanization, you can basically run fire dragons for a lot cheaper!
A goofier, and more classical option is to keep the squad with lasguns, but give them a standard and medic. This allows all squads in 6” to add 1 to their leadership, and can return a wound to a unit on a 4+. This unnecessary dice rolling on a fairly fragile platform sours me, but putting even one model back on the board can often pay for itself. This is a neat little support unit, but the codex is simply chock full of neat little support units in the 30-50pt range, and you can't buy them all. For serious play, go with special weapon spam, but for fun games, break out your flags and medics. EDIT: as of the 7/2/17 FAQ command squads are limited to one per officer, which makes the ability to spam these a lot more difficult. That doesn't change them being extremely efficient special weapon platforms.
Overall: highly competitive

Special Weapon Squad
Limited to six men with three special weapons, the humble SWS retains it's low leadership and BS4+ befitting basic guardsmen with no sarge. In an “it is still true, and it's still kind of funny” moment, I remind my reader that the SWS is one of the very few 40k units without a special rule of any kind. It's six models with a single statline, and some weapons. That's it. It's an odd choice for the Elites section, but it's hard to think of a better place for them, aside from troops, in all honesty. Anyway, we are spoiled for choice for units that can take multiple special weapons, and nearly all of them do it better than the actually designated Special Weapon Squad. Command squads have BS3+ and can take a fourth gun, veterans have more bodies and BS3+, Scions have, well, quite a bit going for them.
So, why take the SWS? Easy... it's the only place to get the demolition charge. Somewhat cleverly designated a grenade, the demo charge has the expected d6 shots, still S8 with AP3 and d3 damage. It's also cheaper than a flamer (it's natural pairing), making a squad with two flamers and a demo charge well under 50 points. It's short ranged and fragile, but you can cram two into a transport. It might not be the strongest option, but if you really like hand tossed explosions, its' your best choice. For dedicated fluff heads, the SWS with three sniper rifles and three spotters makes an actually functional military unit, compared to the idea of a squad full of sniper rifles, but it's of very marginal efficacy.
However, SWS is also the must purely cost effective ways to load up on special weapons. While I think most players will run out of plasma, and will put them on other platforms, the SWS does allow you to swamp the board with dirt cheap base units with cheap plasma guns. 45pts gets you six men with three plasma guns, which is a unit that you can afford to lose to dedicated shooting, but can shrug off one or two random wounds comfortably. Consider mixing this type of MSU with a general purpose aura, particularly Harker, so you can overcharge with little risk. SWS is also now a lot easier to spam than command squads, thanks to the FAQ.
Overall: Competitive

Veterans
After two editions as troops, the veterans have moved back to their rightful place as Elites, which is fine since 8th edition has given up any pretense of Troops choices as a moral imperative. A fairly complicated unit, the vets, alone of the regimental guard infantry, can swap lasguns for shotguns, which give up 12” of range to become Assault 2 and strength 4 at half range. This is simply cool, and gives them a dangerous and fun edge. As in prior editions, the Vets are BS3+, but otherwise basic guardsmen. Unlike prior editions, the only real options are weapon related, and the doctrines available in the past are gone. (On a tangent, it's annoying that they included rules for shotguns, which have never had models aside from a single cadian lieutenant in 2nd edition, but not carapace armor, which is clearly on Vostroyon models top to bottom.)
Still, the weapon options available are quite nice. They can take a heavy, up to three special weapons, plus a heavy flamer. In addition, the sarge can take all the pistol and melee options, including a power fist. Vets got a price break from 7th edition, and are really cheap enough to serve as your line troops. The basic builds are pretty straightforward, with triple plasma and lascannon as your main firepower build, and triple melta forming the core of a tank hunter build, with heavy flamer, power first, plasma pistol, or even a heavy weapon added to taste. As you'd expect, the latter build should invest in shotguns and a transport. Vets are one of the very few sources of BS3+ heavy weapons, and I'd stick to lascannons to maximize their value. Compared to Command Squads, Vets are not the most efficient delivery mechanism for special weapons, but enjoy a bit more durability, but less than Scions. As a rule, unless you're using the specific advantages of Vets, such as the heavy flamer or shotguns, I’d make sure you would be better off with Scions or Command squads.
Overall: Competitive

Commissars
It was frustrating discussing Lord Commissars or Yarrick prior to the basic model, who provide a crucial lynchpin for the modern Astra Militarum. With the same statline as a platoon commander but with LD8, the commissar isn't going to survive much, and while he can take any pistol or melee weapon, he must come stock with the iconic bolt pistol. However, he's not there to fight, but to keep your soldiers “motivated.” For starters, any unit within 6” can use his leadership, which is great for low morale troops like conscripts. More callously, his coldly named Summary Execution rule means that no unit within 6” will lose more than one model to a failed morale check. This means that a single model can stand among a gunline, and not only buff their morale, but even if the dice go south, keep a squad from dissolving.
The synergy of summary execution with the only large squad we have, conscripts, is self evident. Instead of melting due to morale, they require the enemy to now kill virtually all of them the old fashioned way. It's a great combo, and doesn't need to be spammed or abused to be effective. Even a single squad, with a single man in black, can do great work. In the first 3rd Edition IG codex, there was a brief army building guide that said “Always take 2-3 commissars.” (bold from original text) that was a steep claim at the time, but is now basically true. The AM have a toolbox full of buffs to increase our leadership or allow re-rolls to morale. A simple character does one better, in minimizing the loss from failed checks. To an extent, with them around, points spent preventing failed morale are just wasted, as you can just lose another four or six point model. While OP, it's nice to finally see such an iconic and beloved model get nice rules.
Overall: highly Competitive

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad
This unit, another casualty of the command squad decoupling, is generally the same as the basic AM command squad, minus the ability to take heavy weapons or a heavy flamer. Instead, they can take all the basic special weapons plus the hot shot volley gun, discussed in more detail below. More crucially, they gain carapace armor and the Aerial Drop rule, the latter of which allows the squad to be deployed at the end of any movement phase anywhere more than 9” from an enemy unit. If this sounds like a really cheap way to have accurately deepstriking special weapons, welcome to the 8th edition hype train. There's nothing clever I can write about these guys. They technically have the option for standard and medic, but I’m not sure I can think or a reason to take those. MT Command compete most notably with Scions themselves, who can take four specials as well, but in a 10 man platform instead of the all killer, no filler four man command squad. That said, 10 scions is not easy to kill, so scion squads can hand around a bit longer. In terms of sheer damage on time, and on target, this is the unit of choice. As of the first FAQ, these are limited to one per Tempestus Prime, which seems to strongly push for a bit of a balanced diet (Prime, Scions, and Command squad).
Overall: Highly competitive

Ogryns
A unit choice dating back to Rogue Trader, Ogryn are the Ogres in space that help to round out the fantasy tropes common in early 40k. Obstensibly the assault specialists, Ogryn have been underwhelming since I started playing 3rd edition. By far the biggest issue with Ogryn was always a limited ability to deal damage in combat, with no access to power weapons. Of course, now that 8th edition had introduced AP modifiers, I was expecting Ogryn to gain at least a little something to help crack armor. And... prepare to be disappointed. The good news is that Ogryn are now substantially cheap, a 5+ save actually means soemthing now, and they got a slight morale bump. The bad news is that there are now dozens of weapons that deal multiple wounds, in both combat and shooting, and Ogryn are one of the few multi-wound units to not gain a wound in the new edition. So, Ogryn aren't OP, but are they usable?
Yeah, I think they are. They are just cheap enough that they can be taken in bulk, and do benefit from support, specifically priests, for War Hymns, and astropaths for Fortify. They hit reasonably hard on the charge, and while they can't reduce armor saves, hitting and wound most things on 3+s will result in a lot of saves to roll. Somewhat unusually, they have a three shot gun, giving them far more firepower than most shock units, although don't confuse them for anything other than a shock unit. Ogryns are worst used against terminators, as their combination of a 2+ save and powerfists will not end well. However, they will cut through Orks or gaunts like butter, and he will also do efficient work against models with only an invulnerable save. Ogryn certainly can do things, but the question is more if your army needs it. There are cheaper and more versatile counter assault units available from other armies like assassins, but Ogryn do benefit from in army buffs. On the whole, they are a specialist unit that pretty much a good amount of work to include in an army, which I think limits their ceiling.
Overall: semi-competitive

Bullgryns
The more focused cousin of the Ogryn, Bullgryns trade their ripper gun for one of two shields and either a grenadier gauntlet or a Bullgryn Maul. Bullgryn are crazy durable, starting with a basic 4+ save, and gaining either a 4++ with the bruteshield or a 2+ with the slabshield. These can, and should, be mixed in the unit. It will take a truly dedicated effort to chew through these lads. the Gauntlet appears somewhat unfortunate, as an assault d6 gun with only S4. The Maul is actually slightly cheaper, and is a basic power maul with damage 2. With WS3+, S7, AP-1, and Damage 2 with three attacks (four on the charge), this is a unit that will hurt what it charges. At over 40pts per model, it should! Bullgryns, like all Ogryn, take up three slots in a transport, so putting them in a Chimera or valkyrie isn't a great idea. Unfortunately, they cannot receive Orders as they are not <regiment> infantry.

Unlike basic Ogryn, Bullgryns don't mind mixing it up with terminators or monsters, and in many ways they are the ideal unit to send against Assault Terminators. They are also legit against vehicles, wounding all but the heaviest on fours with AP1. If they're not swinging on something either high toughness or very hard hitting, they will struggle to really make their points back. I would screen them with conscripts to prevent them from being tarpitted or assaulted by units like Harlequins. Also unlike basic Ogryn, I don't think Bullgryn are really meant for counter assault. I think they're a shock unit, meant to lead attacks. I think you should be careful buying them, but if your play style is aggressive, Bullgryns are one of the most durable units, and also the most capabel in hand to hand.
Overall: Competitive

Ratlings
Another ancient unit, Ratlings are the final abhuman squad in the index. They are sniper specialists, trading any ability to perform other battlefield tasks for some sniping buffs. They are a rare S2/T2, with only a 6+ save, but if they are in cover, they get +2 to their save. They can deploy after all other units are deployed, anywhere more than 18" from the enemy (so, basically infiltrate). And they can move after shooting, allowing them to set up more shots. They are BS3+, and sniper rifles are S4 and do an extra mortal wound on a 6+ to wound. In terms of damage, they're kind of wimpy, but they can target any character, even if they aren't the closest. It's still hard to actually do wounds, as 10 shots will do about one normal wound and one mortal wound to a T4/3+ save model. Ratlings are cheap, and will average about one mortal wound per turn with 36" range. If enemy support characters are eating your lunch, Ratlings are the most efficient snipers you can find, but they are a unit with a narrow ideal target.
Overall: semi-competitive.

Officer of the fleet
Probably the first model to really feel out of place, the Officer of the Fleet's main ability is to target within 18", and then all Aeronautica Imperialis units can reroll ones to hit against that unit. Since the only AI unit is the Valkyrie, with a not horribly impressive rack of shooting, he's clearly waiting for the Forge World indexes. Then, of course, he's just one more source of re-rolling ones to hit, but he has the burden of needing to be close to the target unit. He also can call in an air strike which does nothing half the time, d3 Mortal wounds a third of the time, and 3 mortal wounds a sixth of the time. He's on the cheaper end of AM support characters, but unless you're running a flyer wing, I'd leave him at home.
Overall: semi-competitive

Techpriest Enginseer
A reasonably durable, slightly choppy character that can heal d3 wounds a turn from any vehicle, this guy has "stand me next to a superheavy" written all over him. He's not exactly cheap, but he can keep units alive, or even undo degradation. I'm concerned that outside of superheavies, too many other vehicles can be shot up in one turn. I"m also concerned that with only move 6", he'll struggle to be in the right place at the right time. Still, he's a good insurance policy for superheavies.
Overall: competitive

Ministorum Priest
As hinted at, the priest, through his War Hymns rule, gives +1 attack to all units within 6". He can also personally re-roll hits on the first turn he fights, he can take a good range of melee weapons, and he rocks a 4++ with four wounds. He's a force multiplier, turning conscripts into two attack models, or making Ogryn even punchier. If you are serious about a unit doing damage in combat, you should strongly consider a priest. Oddly, he's only WS4+. His buff stacks with Strackens, and can also be combined with "Fix Bayonets" to allow a unit to swing twice, both times with an extra attack. Also, don't forget that he gives himself an extra attack.
Overall: highly competitive.

Wyrdvane Psykers
A unit of psykers, Wyrdvanes only get one dice on psychic tests, but can add +1 if the squad has three or more models, and +2 if six or more. all in all, this means that they are less capable of casting powers than a primaris for more points, all while not being a character and thus able to hide from shooting. If you have a unit of these, break them up and use them as Astropaths, because Wyrdvanes are simply poor.
Overall: casual

Astropath
Let's not bury the lede on this guy: 12 pt psyker, albeit one that only gets 1d6 when testing for Smite. Still, 12 points buys you a pretty good chance at Psychic Barrier, making it a bargain. On a long enough scale, Astropaths are really the only psykers that the AM needs, although I prefer buying proper Primaris to get a touch of combat punch. You can put them with your tanks, or your gunline, or even riding along with vets. Even Smite succeeds a third of the time with them, and for that price, you can just buy three.
Overall: highly competitive.

Color Sergeant Kell
Hey, it's yet another support character! But this one is famous! Kell embodies the sort of “kind of good in fighting, has a couple of decent buffs, and doesn't cost all that much” philosophy that seems to permeate the Index. He has a company commander statline, but swaps the refractor field for carapace armor (4+ save). He has a powerfist and a power sword, which provides a bit of punch in combat, but his real value is in allowing all Cadian units within 6” to reroll morale. This is a pretty rare ability, and while the AM have a lot of ways to deal with morale, this is a different option. He also allows one officer within 6” to give an extra order, an ability that's neat but not overly valuable. Finally, he can take wounds for Creed if within 3”, which seems to reflect his classic role as a bodyguard. He costs a bit more than a company commander with fist and plasma pistol, so his appeal is basically in the morale re-rolls and keeping Creed alive. With commissars and command point rerolls, I don't rate the morale re-roll all that highly, and Creed shouldn't be taking too much damage as a character, so I think Kell is destined for narrative play.
Overall: Casual

Sergeant Harker
Harker, in a refreshing change of pace, offers some legitimate offensive firepower and a very simple, broad buff. Payback, his custom heavy bolter, is assault 3, with AP-2, which he shoots at a healthy BS3+, all at 36” range. This isn't overwhelming, but solid firepower. His rule, somewhat embarrassingly named Harkes Hellraisers, allows all Catachan units within 6” to re-roll all ones in the shooting phase. The key here is to look up all the artillery, tanks, and even super heavies, and note that they can all be keyed to Catachan. This means Harker can make a Baneblade re-roll ones to hit, or a handful of veteran squads, or even a cluster of dirt cheap mortar squads. He's a true force multiplier, with the ability to give the equivalence of Take Aim! To multiple squads, earning his points back easily with the 16% damage increase, even before he starts shooting Payback. Further, his rule is an aura, not an order, so can be stack with FRF!SRF! Or Bring it Down! For more fun. He's one of the true gems of the codex, as he can make anything better, as long as there is enough of it to justify his points.
Overall: Highly Competitive

Nork Deddog
Aside from Yarrick, Nork is the oldest named character in the book, going back to 2nd edition, and his role hasn't changed very much. He has the standard bodyguard type rule (if a character takes a wound within 3", on a 2+ Nork takes a mortal wound instead) that applies to any AM character. Since characters can hide from shooting, his bodyguarding does the most good in close combat... which works out, because he's pretty good in hand to hand. He had a standard Ogryn profile for just under three times the price and twice the wounds, but he gains the Huge Knife, which rocks AP-1 and Damage two. He can also make one of this attacks a Thunderous Headbutt at S8, Ap2, Damage d3. oh, and if he is slain, he can fight one more time, even if he fought already that phase. Since he's too expensive for gunline duty, I say pair him up with Straken or Yarrick to tank wounds. As long as he gets into combat, he will do some damage, and if he has somebody to help keep alive, he could break even on points.
Overall: semi-competitive

Troops
This section got a shakeup, with Veterans leaving for Elites, the Platoon being broken up, and Scions joining the main list as a troop. All of them are pretty solid, leaving them all as fine choices for list building, and even better, they can all be mixed!

Infantry Squad
The ground pounders, the dogfaces, the poor bloody infantry… the basic Infantry Squad is now freed from its fetters of platoon structure, and can be purchased ala carte. The biggest change by far is the loss of combined squads, a much loved rule for nearly a decade. Now, each squad must stand on its own. Other than that, it’s basically the same. You can buy a special, a heavy, and a power weapon (but not fist) and/or a plasma pistol for the sergeant. You can also buy a vox caster, and now is probably a good a time as any to discuss this rule. Basically, if an officer is within 3” of a unit with voxcaster (not the model itself), the officer can give an order to a unit within 18” (of the officer) as long as that squad also has a vox caster. Keep in mind that voxes are 5pts each, and a platoon commander is only 20pts. I don’t have a really problem with voxes, but I don’t think orders are good enough to try to extend the range a bit. If you plan on having one or two solo squads, then go nuts, but I think that I’d rather simply have more officers than a vox network. Only command squads, infantry squads, veterans can even take them, which I think reduces their efficacy somewhat.

Anyway, the basic infantry squad does what it did in 3rd and 4th edition: it provides decent firepower at a low price. How low? Actually really low. After dropping a point per model, the basic infantry can now be fielded with flamer and heavy bolter for only 55pts, or las/plas for 67pts. That’s, uh, real cheap. With six ablative wounds before losing a critical model, this is a lascannon that will stick around from all but focused fire.

The consensus early on is that the infantry squad is a distant third to the hard hitting scions and the uber efficient conscripts, but I think that there is room for cheap, decent firepower. I wouldn’t include anything other than flamers, plasma, heavy bolters, or lascannons, as the other specials are either too weak or really want to be fielded in numbers, and the other heavy weapons simply don’t do much. I think that you can make a case for only fielding conscripts, heavy weapon squads, and scions, but I also think that having squads with some pop is a good thing. The choice is really up to you!
Overall: competitive

Conscripts
I almost don’t want to write this, because the internet is aflame with conscripts being OP, but I think the target audience for this treatise is probably a player that doesn’t already know the internet consensus. To be blunt, conscripts are ineffective warriors that can be taken in huge squads to take advantage of force multipliers. What that means is that while they only shoot lasguns (and are only ever armed with lasguns) on a 5+, the unit of 50 can received FRF!SRF!, which doubles the whole squads firepower, for between 50 and 100 more shots. At the goofy extreme, 100 more shots is 33 more hits, 11 more wounds on T3, and nearly four more dead space marines. All from a unit that cost 150pts plus a 20pts platoon commander! Okay, so just start shooting them, and watch them melt to morale. Add a 31pt commissar, so you only lose one more a turn due to morale. Okay, so just charge them and tie them up in combat. Well, the officer can order them to fight an extra time, or fall back and shoot. If they want to fight, a 35pts priest gives them all an extra attack for both rounds of swinging. Even thirty conscripts swinging twice with a priest put out 120 attacks. Okay, you say, but now you’re pouring 86 points of upgrades into a 150pt unit, so it’s not all that efficient! Well… bump the platoon commander to a company commander, and with clever positioning you can do this for two 50 man blobs. 396pts buys you over 100 wounds, and the ability to put out 400 shots a turn.

In practice, this won’t be fun, and you’ll quickly run out of time if you include too many of the bastards. Given that these are not permanent codexes, I wouldn’t start building 300 conscripts to spam them. Still, even a smaller package of a 50 man unit, a commissar, and a platoon commander is just a hair over 200 points, which is roughly the same as a lot of other armies 10 men squads. One of the reasons that people like conscripts over infantry squads is that they can provide the same “bubble wrap” of physically taking up space to protect high value assets like artillery or tanks from deep strikers or assault units.

8th edition is very good to conscripts, who can now bunch together nice and tight without worrying about blasts, and also will get their 5+ save from most small arms. Even if you add a unit to your army just for fun, it’ll be a good unit that will soak a lot of firepower while sending out a lot of lasgun love.
Overall: highly competitive

Militarum Tempestus Scions
I love this unit. Stormtroopers have ranged between bad and “niche” for four five straight editions, and now, they finally got them right. Everything about them in the context of 8th edition works, and outside of being criminally undercosted (and, I suppose the sins of plasma more generally), they are a wonderful example of fluff meeting crunch in game design. Scions start as veterans, gaining BS3+, but also gain a 4+ save, and trade the plebian lasgun for the regrettably named hot shot lasgun. This marvel of technology (which is incredibly difficult to maintain in the field, hence its rarity) has AP-2. On a basic weapon. This means that light infantry get no save, while space marines in cover only get a 4+. It’s still only S3, but here’s the other kicker: it gets doubled with FRF!SRF! On the downside, it’s only range 18”, meaning it can’t double tap outside of 9”

Speaking of being within 9”, Scions have the ability to Aerial Drop, which is their version of the new deep strike: at the end of any movement phase, they can deploy anywhere more than 9” from enemy units. If you’re thinking this allows them to land and light up targets of priority, then welcome aboard! As hinted at above, the 9” range means no flamers, no Hotshot double tap, no double dice for meltas. That pretty much leaves plasma, the volley gun, and melta guns base. The clear generalist winner is the plasma gun. When overcharged, a plasma gun does more damage than a long range melta (but less than when in half range), and can also shoot normally. With Damage 2, overcharged plasma is ideal for multiwound units. You won’t go wrong spamming them, and only them. Volley guns, unfortunately, have a longer range but are heavy, meaning they are less effective for drop troops. Long range meltas are still pretty effective, especially when mixed with plasma, as many opponents will wipe out the plasma squads first.

The cool thing about scions in 8th is that they can take four specials if 10 men, which I recommend. 4+ save troopers are now a lot more durable, and with the ability to freely drop into cover, they are really hard to shift with shooting. Even in assault, they can always fall back and use “get back in the fight!” to shoot again. Now, be careful about armies with large, dedicated assault units that can multicharge and wipe out multiple scion squads… especially since commissars can’t drop with them. (Note: check FW for elysian commissars). OTOH… if there’s a big assault squad, shoot it first! Or, if in a transport, that’s a squad that not crashing into your main gunline. One of the ridiculous thing about scions is how stupidly cheap they are. A mere 124 points buys you 10 men with four plasma guns. Sure, you’ll want a Tempestor Prime, but buying two squads and a prime gets you an awful lot of firepower for under 300 points.

Overall: Highly Competitive.

Dedicated Transports
The last time I wrote one of these, this section was a single model, but we are now blessed with three different transports, all of which fit very slightly different niches. One of the biggest mistakes a player in 8th edition could make is to try to run these models, especially the Chimera, the same way they did from 3rd-7th editions. The game has changed around these models, and GW did not really adjust their points to reflect those changes. That said, we have some pretty nice options for battle taxis now, while the days of static pillboxes are long behind us.

Chimera
To understand what's wrong, and more importantly what's right, about the current Chimera, you need to understand a bit about it's past. It was famous for having a surprisingly durable front armor, with weak and long flanks, as well as the ability to allow squads inside to shoot out. It also had a rather nifty rule that allowed an embarked officer to give orders to squads not embarked in a transport. Because of this, squads in chimeras tended to stay embarked, until they disgorged to fire at full effect, while command squads (RIP) stayed embarked as long as possible to dish out orders while staying relatively safe. Now, no models can fire from inside, officers aren't bundled with command squads, and an officer can how be quite safe hiding behind an infantry squad, making orders much more flexible and available. Also, for much of it's life, the multilaser was a yeoman's weapon, doing some work while being cheap.

In the modern world, none of that is true. Much has been said about how vehicles are supposed to be more durable now, and while questionable for things like the LRBT, the basic Chimera is now a tough little bastard, even at close range or in assault. It has one less toughness and two fewer wounds than an LRBT, making only slightly less vulnerable to dedicated anti-tank weapons. With T7 and a 3+ save, it can now shrug a lot of the mid strength fire power that used to eat it up (hell, assault cannons used to regularly one shot chimeras from the side with hot rolls, something that is now mathematically impossible. So, don't try to bunker down with them, get in the mix!
Adding to this is the loss of firepower. The Multi-laser is probably the worst heavy weapon in the IG arsenal. It is objectively worse than even the heavy bolter against anything but painfully specific targets (T5/6 models with poor or invulnerable saves), and yet is somehow two points more. The multilaser is only available on three platforms, all of whom seem overcosted. They could have made the gun 5pts, and it would have been fine! That leaves two choices for weapons: heavy bolters, or heavy flamers. Bolters are cheaper, and dual loaded with them a chimera can tun you only 91pts, which for the record is just about 19 points more than Rhino. (for which, you get the same mobility and durability, better but less accurate shooting, room for two more models, and, oddly, a slightly more generous degradation chart) I compare these two models because the double HB Chimera is basically our Rhino, except it can move a full squad plus a support character or two. The other option is double heavy flamer, which while scarier, is admittedly shorter range. However... the chimera can move 10", and shot 8" more. That's a decent threat range, and as discussed, this is a model that wants to move. Four turns of moving and firing double heavy bolters yields 8 S5, AP1 hits, which is only one more than a double heavy flamer Chimera that shoots one time! It's admittedly spendier, breaking the triple digit mark at 109pts, but it's firepower moves from incidental to significant.

One of the biggest mental hurdles for players of prior editions (myself included) is to look at that, and lament how much a half dozen would cost. That ignores the fact that you shouldn't be using that many. Chimeras aren't the only way to move squads, we have excellent deep strikers and the Move!Move!Move! order, as well as genuinely good indirect fire artillery. The Chimera should focus on doing what those choices cannot, which is delivering either meltas or flamers to their target, preferably with a bit of close combat punch. Don't forget, you can put two characters in there, which can include an astropath for cheap fortify/smite. Avoid the multilaser, use them sparingly, and they'll do right for you, but if they're not moving, you're spending a lot of points on harder to kill heavy weapon squad.
Finally, the chimera can, and should, be charging. A good tactic is to send the chimera in first to soak the overwatch, allowing your more fragile gaurdsmen to charge in unmolested. You can also charge while fully loaded, to gain extra movement. you can disembark while engaged, as long as the squad has room, so don't charge ork mobs or anything big, but charging an enemy transport to block it could be fun. Also, you can charge light static shooting squads, either while full or empty.
Overall: Competitive

Taurox
The poor Taurox, which nobody wanted, made it clear that the IG were never going to get the model they really wanted: a cheap, no frills, transport. Think Ork Trukk. It's been on nearly every IG players wishlist for over a decade, and instead, we got the Taurox, which suffers from a nasty case of Skornergy. It's a quick, relatively light transport, which comes bundled with two long range, surprisingly expensive heavy weapons. It's statline says it wants to move fast and close in, but it's weapons want to flank and fire. It's also not cheap, running only six points less than the double HB chimera, while losing a point of toughness and two transport slots. It also, somewhat oddly, does not have smoke launchers!

I wish there was some hidden power to this poor guy. It's staggering that when every other model got a price break from a twinlinked weapon to twin weapons, the taurox instead got two autocannons at full retail. Even the exterminator gets it's lousy cannon at a discount. Not only are autocannons long range and heavy, they're not that great. They're also readily available on plenty of platforms, making this a model that wants to move, but then loses it's ability to actually use it's pricey firepower. I'm not sold on it's firepower, so in the end, it's a few points cheaper for a hit to durability, and I like the option to add characters.
Overall: Semi-competitive

Taurox Prime
Only five more points bumps you up to BS3+ and a more interesting array of weapons choices. The drawback is that it can only carry Militarum Tempestus or Officio Prefectus models, but since Scions are stupid good, I'm not too worried about the loss. The Prime can take the autocannons, or it can take two hot shot volley guns, and perfectly fine weapon that's otherwise only available to scions. They don't like it because it's a heavy weapon on a squad that is almost always moving, and competes with the plasma gun. Here, it's half the cost of the Autocannon for four shots at S4 and AP2, giving it a great range of ideal targets. It also must take a turret weapon, which is a mixed bag as well. The Taurox missile Launcher is literally a twin missile Launcher, but instead of a discount, pays a 10 point premium over two missile tubes on their own. The Taurox Battle Cannon loses a point of Strength and AP off the original, while costing more (on an admittedly cheaper hull). The Gatling gun, however, is a mere 18 points for 20 bolter shots. By process of elimination, that leaves a Prime with double hotshots and the Gatling gun for 96 points, or less than a double heavy flamer chimera. This is a legitimately decent unit in terms of firepower, and if you could put basic infantry in them, it'd be the only transport I used. The Prime is good enough, and Scions are cheap enough, that a full scion squad with flamers in one of these is a nice package that can tear up light to medium infantry. It's a lot more fragile than a tank, but it hits hard and accurately, and can work either as a transport or as a light fire support vehicle.
Overall: Competitive.




Fast Attack

Okay, so it's come to this. While never a highlight of the IG codex (aside from the fabled 5th edition codex with 130pts vendettas), fast attack is simply meh in 8th edition. Unfortunately, few armies are as suited to fill out a Brigade Detachment and roll deep with command points than AM. Which means we need to pay a three fast attack unit tax. Unlike the rest of the codex, which is full of units that are cheap and effective, Fast Attack is home to the middling and the surprisingly expensive.

Scout Sentinels
Starting here, the sentinels had a smooth transition into 8th, going from AV10 with two HP (super fragile) to T5, 4+ save, with six wounds. That is unequivocally a more durable platform. Of course, with only heavy weapons and BS4+, they can't really move and shoot all that well. And, really, the only weapons that are remotely decent are the lascannon and the heavy flamer. The mutilaser, as thoroughly discussed, is a pea shooter, and the autocannon gives up too much to the lascannon for only five points. One thing to keep in mind is that a sentinel with lascannon is actually five poitns less than an infantry squad with a lascannon, and while it doesn't have the lasguns, it has only four less wounds with higher toughness and better save. I'm not suggesting you buy three lascannon sentinels and use their scout move to burrow in terrain and stand and shoot... but that's not the worst way to fill these slots.

Another decent approach is to aggressive, with a heavy flamer, and use the model to get in the way. At movement 9”, it has a 17” range with the heavy flamer, and it can fight a very, very little bit. The key here is to flame and/or assault either light support troops, or transports to prevent them from moving as directly as they'd like. The Scout Sentinel gets to move 9”, but not within 9” of enemy units, prior to the first turn, which allows you to either find a shooting perch, or threaten a flank.

Another trick with these is if the enemy has deep strikers, you can use their scout move to extend the 9” bubble they cannot land in. Sure, they can land and shoot/charge the sentinels, but that's probably a win! The chainsaw is fun, but with only one attack at WS4+, the odds of even forcing a save is pretty low, but you when it causes a failed save you'll feel pretty good. Interestingly, these do not degrade, meaning they fight just as well at one wound left as with six. They also explode, causing a mortal wound within 3” on a 6+. All told... if you really want cheap fast attack that actually do something... grab three of these with heavy flamers, and cram them into your opponent, forcing him to deal with them instead of the real meat of your army. You will do some wounds with the heavy flamer, you might tie up a shooting unit for a turn in assault, and you might do a mortal wound when it inevitably dies!
Overall: semi-competitive (but necessary!)

Armored Sentinel
Basically a sentinel that trades the scout move for a 3+ save, but costs five points more. I wish I could be clever here, but this unit assumes you want to buy a really expensive heavy weapon that can't take orders. To be fair, it can take a plasma cannon alongside the other options, which is somehow the same price as an autocannon... which actually is really dumb, and if you are going to buy these things, I'd run them with plasma cannons at a cool 55ps per. Outside of range, I'd rather take a special weapon squad with three plasma guns for ten points less, more shots, and more mobility. Still, if you want reasonably durable lascannons, this is pretty good place to get them. If you have enough heavy armor in your list so the enemy isn't sending lascannons at them, they'll likely survive quite a while. Still, this is a reach for a unit that really doesn't offer much.
Overall: Casual

Hellhounds
A bit of an interesting choice, as the three species of genus hellhound are actually different model choices, but share the keyword Hellhound. The Hellhound has a single wound on the basic Chimera, and also is no faster, in a change from prior editions. The three versions are differentiated by their turret weapon. The basic Hellhound has an inferno cannon, which has a healthy 16” range, heavy d6, always hits, with Strength 6, Ap-1, and damage 2. Compared to the old template, the hellhound simply isn't going to burn down hordes anymore. But.. with AP1 and D2, this is your best killer of two wound units like bikes, Crisis suits, or even storm shield terminators. All of this is only 3 points more than a heavy flamer, on a chassis two points cheaper than the chimera. So, a hellhound with inferno cannon/heavy flamer is only 1 pt more than a chimera, while also rocking an extra wound. This gives you an idea how much GW values transport capacity in pointing out units. The other quirk of the basic hound from hell is that it explodes on a 4+, dealing d3 mortal wounds to all unit within 6”, so keep this guy out of your lines.

The Devil Dog mounts a melta cannon, which is a multimelta with d3 shots. This is a great weapon, but it is... not a bargain. Yes, a double melta Devil Dog has d3+1 melta shots at 24”, but it still suffers -1 to hit if it moves, and it runs 128pts, which is pricy for AM, but is actually pretty decent for vehicle mounted multimeltas across the game. One thing to consider is that with 24” range, in most games, the Devil Dog will never need to actually move. With the ability to deliver so many melta hits, this tank is a genuine threat, and when mixed with other threats, it can provide a lot of pressure on the enemy to deal with your armor. Also, 128 points is less than the bare bones hull of a Leman Russ, which has only one pip of toughness (albeit an important one) and an extra wound.
Finally, for the nihilist in all of us, the Bane Wolf provides the chem cannon, a heavy flamer with Ap-3 which wounds everything but vehicles on a 2+. This is somehow actually cheaper than a heavy flamer, it's natural pairing, giving you a nasty close range tank for 105 points. Save a command point to reroll the die for number of shots, but this could melt a squad of heavy infantry. Unlike in prior editions, when a vehicle that could shoot that short range of a gun would likely be wrecked in close combat the next turn, the Bane Wolf can actually survive some combat, but of course, will not be able to shoot if it falls back. Still, this is not an expensive vehicle compared to the rest of the game, and can easily win it's points back with a good shot.
As pretty capable medium tanks, the hellhound is arguably the strongest choice for Fast Attack, but you need to make sure you have enough other armor in the list that they don't get shot up turn one. Mix three of them with some chimeras, a superheavy, pask, or even artillery to swamp your opponent with armor.
Overall: competitive

Rough Riders
The proud recipient of multiple buffs, Rough Riders are, if not good, at least capable of acting as shock troops. The hunting lance is no S+2, AP-2, with d3 damage, which is great, but with no bonus for charging, models only get one lance attack a turn. Instead, they each get one chainsword attack, and another trampling hoofs attack. In short, if they charge, they get the lance and two basic swings, and otherwise, they just get the two swings. They are also now two wounds a piece, which combined with the increased durability of 5+ saves, makes them harder to shift than previously.
In one of the never ending pendulum swings, Rough Riders once again can take up to two special weapons instead of hunting lances, including the omnipresent plasma gun. They also gained a nifty outflanking rule that allows them to deploy within 7” of the board edge, but more than 9” from the enemy. However, they do not have any buffs to charging, making this a bit risky.
So, there are basically two main approaches. First, you go minimum squad with two plasmas or flamers, and you use them as a highly mobile, slightly durable special weapon squad. The second is that you go bigger with all lances, and you actually try to kill some folk. A full squad charging a rhino will lay three or four wounds on it, and if it does fall back, it will allow the riders to charge again. At 50pts for a minimum squad, and 100 for a max, they provide some options for either counter-charge or flanking that an otherwise all infantry army might lack. If you're going for an all infantry brigade, I'd look hard at the horsemen, then you deny your opponent a good target for his heavy weapons. They wont' buzzsaw through tough units, but they will do work. Also, if you can at all get a priest near them, that doubles their hunting lance attacks.
Overall: competitive

Flyers
A tragic victim of one of the few times a codex unit moved to Forgeworld only, the loss of the Vendetta leave the valkyrie as the only flyer left. Since Troops is a short section, I thought I'll talk about the old warbird next.

Valkyrie
As discussed above comparing a hellhound to a chimera, 8th edition 40k places a tangible and high point value on transport capacity. [to recap: a hellhound w/ heavy flamer costs only one more point than a dual heavy flamer chimera, making transport 12 roughly equal to an extra wound and swapping a heavy flamer for the inferno cannon.] It's not surprising that the Valkyrie went up in cost, but that's not all that's suprrising. First, it's shockingly durable. With the near standard T7 and 3+ save, the Valkyrie is a pretty standard medium vehicle, until you see 14 wounds (four more than a chimera!). Also, while moving as a flyer, the Valkyrie is a hard to hit, with all shooting having a -1 penalty. Flyers do not have base rules, but instead join three rules. The first is hard to hit, while the second is airborne, which prevents it from being charged by non-fly units, or fighting or being fought by those units that cannot fly. Finally, supersonic is a simplified version of 6th7th edition flier movement. You pivot up to 90 degrees, move 20-45”, with no further pivots. This movement is limiting if you're firing, but as a transport, it works pretty well. Further, the Valkyrie has the Hover Jet rule, which allows it to ignore many of the flier rules and just move normally up to 20”, while being hit as normal.
So, it's a tanky little craft, but what does it do? It's not the shooting, I can tell you that right now. It has the same weapon options as always. In the nose, you can pick between the virtually worthless multilaser, or a lascannon. (Guess which one I think you should pick.) On the wings, hellstrike missiles are no longer limited in how many times they can fire, but simply get one Krak missile shot per turn, with longer range and rolling two dice, pick the highest for damage. Multiple Rocket Pods are basically heavy bolters with d6 shots. You can also add two heavy bolters if you'd like. Not unlike the chimera, you have the option between weapons that don't do much, and spending even more for weapons that still only do a little bit. In my book, the lascannon easily eclipses the multi-laser for only 10pts more. Even hitting on 5s, a lascannon shot can change a game in a way three multi-laser shots never will. Under the wings, the hellstrikes are slightly cheaper, but are really just fancy krak missles. However, if the krak missile hits, it will do some nice damage. Both wing missiles are overcosted, and I'd honestly rather have neither at that price. Still, aside from heavy bolters, there's a 12 point total difference between the cheapest loadout (ML/hellstrikes) and the most effective (LC/MRPs). I say spend the points. Speaking of points, on top of the points in weapons, the valkyrie chassis runs you well over a hundred points, with street legal birds clocking between 160-172 points. This is well above a chimera, for not that much more fire power, but a substantial bump in speed and durability.
This makes the Valkyrie the better transport, but what makes it really great is the return of the old Grav-Chut insertion rule. As before, it allows models to disembark at any point in the move, but more than 9” from enemy models. Further, if the Valkyrie moves more than 20”, you lose a model on a d6 roll of 1. However, because the units disembark, and are not deployed, they can move as normal during their turn. If you have a unit that wants to get close in, this is the transport for it! Meltas, flamers, and even shotguns like being able to ditch out 9” from the enemy and walk to within 3”. For units like shake n bake veterans (flamerx3, heavy flamer, shotguns, power first), two special weapons squads, or most cheesily three command squads, the valkyrie really puts them where they want to be. Just don't go looking up flyer transports for other armies, or you might get depressed.
Overall: competitive


Heavy Support

This is the part of the review that old school IG treadheads look forward to the most – discussion of tanks, and artillery, and.. well, basically those two, plus heavy weapon squads. Traditionally a strength and source of offensive heavy lifting, the heavy support options have cooled off a bit while the rest of the list has improved over the last 17 years. Still, it will be an unusual AM army that doesn't include some of these delights...

Heavy Weapons Squad
For those interested in history, heavy weapon squads danced all over the Force Org Chart. In the 3rd edition back of the book lists, they were actually bundled as either mortar, fire support(heavy bolter/autocannon), or anti-tank (Missile/Lascannon) squads, and they were split between troops (fire support) and heavy support (the rest). In third edition, they were part of the HQ platoon, and limited to no more than two of a kind, and five total. (Fun fact, you could also take a sentinel squadron as part of the HQ platoon). In the 3.5 codex, they stayed in HQ, but could also be taken as platoons in heavy support. In the 5th and 7th edition books, they were part of the platoon, and could finally completely mix and match weapons. Now, they are independent heavy support options, and holy cow are they terrific. One of the reasons they are so good is that, like all non-veteran Infantry
While they pay full price for the weapons, the base squad is suspiciously cheap at 12pts. This makes triple mortars only 27pts, while even trip-las runs a mere 72pts. Even at BS3, this is very efficient source of long range fire power. Unfortunately, they are fragile, with only six total wounds spread over three models. This means that weapons that are Damage 2 will kill a full base, and at T3/5+ save, expect to see a lot of 2+ to wound, no save against them. That said... not a lot of armies spam Damage 2 weapons, at least that I've seen so far. And even in an all infantry list, where the enemy lascannons and other stupidly powerful weapons will be shooting at the heavy weapon squads, it takes more shots than you'll think. (the math is boring, but to kill a full squad of three, it takes 6 shots at BS3+, S6 or higher, AP2 or higher, and damage d6). Regardless, these are not durable squads, but they have a huge amount of firepower on a fragile platform. Due to this, you can’t take just one squad with lascannons and expect it to do much. You either need to spam multiple squads to minimize the losses, or with the ability to split fire, you can put lascannons in squads with two mortars. This makes for a very cheap lascannon (42pts) but I would keep in mind that not every opponent will be able to wipe out the squads, so consider running some squads with full weapons.
On that note, which weapons should you take? The biggest loser is probably the missile launcher, which pays a sizable premium for versatility, and no army with access to as many lasguns, heavy bolters, and mortars as the IG should pay a premium for a frag missile option. All of the other options have uses, although the Autocanon remains, shall we say, “niche.” (the autocannon is the best weapon against some targets, such as termiantors and other multiwound models with good invulnerable saves, which IMO makes it a fine weapon in a couple of infantry squads, but not worth burning a heavy support slot over.) However, the other three are all very solid. The mortar is the easiest to see the value in, because it’s so dirt cheap, and can shoot without LOS. It’s good on its own, and it also makes ideal ablative wounds for more expensive options. IN the end, it is just a bunch of S4 shots that still need to roll to hit, but the squad is so laughably cheap that there seems to be little downside, other than inflating your kill point total. The heavy bolter is a legit gun in 8th edition, and while it will never do a lot, it will reliably chip wounds off anything it shoots at. That sort of minimal firepower is fine at the price, which is very low. On top of providing the firepower, a squad like this can dramatically increase your armies footprint, limiting drop zones for enemy deepstrikers.
Finally, you have the real star of the show, the lascannon. The IG are interesting in that while they are famed for being a gunline army, the list doesn’t provide a lot of strong long ranged firepower options. Infantry based lascannons are actually good in 8th edition, and the heavy weapon squads are the most point efficient way to field them. As discussed above, when packing lascannons, the squads are threatening and expensive enough to justify making them a priority, and with only six wounds, they won’t last long. Either spam them like hell, or mix them with mortars or heavy bolters. When bought in three-packs, they’re actually a pretty decent target for orders, but that’s not enough reason, on its own, to run them straight.
Overall: Highly Competitive

Basilisk
Another long serving IG model, the baslisk is a classic. It’s always been a long range, powerful, indirect fire weapon, and 8th edition does not change anything. In terms of durability, the “open topped” nature of the bassie is represented by the model being T6 instead of the usual Chimera hull T7, but it has the 11 wounds of the hellhound, one more than the basic transport. T6 is obviously more vulnerable to S6/S7 weapons than T7, but that’s the range of weapons which have suffered the most from the shift to 8th, and I do not see the loss of toughness as being huge. Further, the bassie doesn’t even need line of sight with its main gun, so feel free to hid it if you can. While she can take a heavy bolter or heavy flamer (and you should take the cheaper heavy bolter) the star of the show here is the earthshaker cannon. Like in prior editions, it’s basically battle cannon with S9, but it also rolls two dice for the number of shots, picking the highest. This yields roughly 4.5 shots a turn, which does drop to only 2.25 hits, but those hits hit pretty hard. It’s only AP-2 and Damage d3, but it’s wounding almost anything on a 3+, with infantry eating it at 2+. Unlike in prior editions, this is not meant to shoot at single wound infantry, instead it’s clearly designed for hitting multiwound models. It also does yeoman’s work against vehicles, stripping roughly 1.5 wounds from T8, 3+ save models. Keep in mind that it has ridiculous range and indirect fire, meaning it can reach out and touch anything on the board.
It can also be bought in a three pack under the Vehicle Squadron rule. This rule causes the “unit” to be deployed as one, with all models within 6” of each other. After deployment, however, each model acts independently. This is actually a pretty positive rule, because it allows you to cram more artillery in a battalion detachment, while also minimizing your drops. OTOH, it does increase your kill point total, and prevents buffs from improving three at once. On the whole though, it’s a positive rule, as it allows the IG to bring more medium vehicles to the party.
While a fine piece of kit, I think that the bassie suffers from being the middle child between the harder hitting Manticore and higher volume of shots from the Wyvern. The old girl is very affordable at just over 100pts, and it can fire at full effect until it drops to only 5 wounds. If you are a retruning player with an old basilisk, or you happen to prefer howitzers to mortars or rockets, the bassie is a solid, multifaceted choice.
Overall: competitive

Hydra:
A true piece of specialist kit, the Hydra is designed to shoot down flyers, and that’s about it. The start of show here is the Hydra Quad Autocannon, an eight shot autocannon that gets a +1 to hit flyers, and a -1 to hit all other targets. The crucial thing to remember is that “flyers” now include any unit that moves through the air in any way, not just 6th edition style flyers. So jetbikes, jump pack infantry, winged monsters, and skimmers all are “flyers,” and so the hydra gets a +1 to hit them, even if they do not have the Hard to Hit rule. So, the Hydra is essentially BS3+ against flyers that are not hard to hit, BS4+ against hard to hit flyers, and BS5+ against everything else. This alone makes the Hydra a reactive weapon – there is no reason to take it unless you play against units that Fly. Still, Flyers are so common, it’s a safe bet the Hydra will get a chance to shine. Looking at the Hydra against a common vehicle archtype, the deadly storm raven, the Quad only lays two wounds per turn, which perversely is actually less than a three lascannon heavy weapon squad. However, against jetbikes, the Quad guns hit on 3s, wound on 3s, and outright kill a bike per shot due to damage 2, meaning it will waste nearly two jetbikes per turn. For raw firepower, the Hydra suffers from the same ceiling as the basic autocannon: low AP, and only damage 2.
Defensively, the Hydra has the same basic chassis as the basilisk and other “open topped” artillery, combining the wound count of a medium tank with the toughness of a light tank. It also can be bought in “squadrons” like the basilisk. Unfortunately, the Hydra is a fairly pricey option, clocking in at over 120pts a piece. While more durable than in prior editions, it’s just pillow fisted and narrow in focus.
Overall: semi-competitive

Wyvern:
Probably one of the best units in the codex last edition, the Wyvern retains its focus as a light infantry killer, with the same artillery chassis as the basilisk, but the extravagantly named “wyvern quad stormshard mortar” as the main gun. This weapon is not subtle: it can fire out of LOS, with 4d6 shots at S4, rerolling wounds. That sounds like a lot of potential wounds, but like all blast weapons, the need to roll to hit means that even against T3, you’re not even forcing seven saves. Sharp eyed readers might ask why buy the Wyvern when it’s basically the same as two mortar heavy weapon squads, which are cheaper and easier to hide out of line of sight. The Wyvern is arguably more durable, and it can take advantage of the Master of Ordnance aura. In general, this isn’t 7th edition, and I wouldn’t make the wyvern the go to artillery piece. Absent some ability to increase either the number of shots or hits, this is another casualty in the switch away from blast templates. Not for the first time, a weapon that had been twinlinked in 7th edition lost the re-roll, but kept the overall number of shots. One of the reasons the Wyvern was nasty in the past was that it got four twinlinked shots, which nearly guaranteed bunched up hits with no need to roll against BS. At d6 shots at BS4+, the wyvern will average nearly two hits per mortar, which was easily eclipsed in prior editions. The Wyvern is comparatively cheap at just over 90 points per, but I’d take two heavy weapon squads with mortars at 54pts every time.
Overall: semi-competitive

Manticore:
Here is your heavy hitter. The manticore is actually more durable than most artillery at T7 (historically it was not open topped), and it cannot be bought in squadrons. However, it is armed with four storm eagle rockets, each of which can only be fired once, and only one per turn. (Oddly, nearly all other limited ammo weapons were simply made Heavy 1, such as hellstrike missiles.) The rocket hits hard, with 2d6 shots at Strength 10, Ap-2, and Damage d3. Do not, unless you have no other choice, waste this on single wound models. Against heavy vehicles, each rocket will average about six wounds, which doesn’t sound like much until you realize it takes over six lascannon shots (at BS4+) to do the same work. With huge range, no need for line of sight, and a price tag just north of 130pts, the manticore hits harder, and far more efficiently, than the rest of the artillery options. The only real drawback is that it can only fire four times, which will come up less than you think. Most games will be more or less decided long before turn five, and even without rockets it’s a durable objective grabber if need be.
This isn’t a complicated entry: the manticore hits harder than anything else less than a lord of war, and is surprisingly affordable.
Overall: highly competitive.

Deathstrike
A variant on the manticore, the Deathstrike has only one big missile which hits very, very hard. It's heavy 3d6, and every hit causes a mortal wound! Further, every other unit within 6” from the target takes d3 mortal wounds on a 4+. In theory, this makes the deathstrike a powerful option for hitting not only tough units (averaging 7 mortal wounds) but also tightly packed clusters of enemy units. In practice, the utility of this is hamstrung by the special rules. Not only does the deathstrike only shoot once, it can only shoot by rolling a d6, adding the turn number, and hitting 8 or more. Which means it cannot fire turn one, and only fires turn two on a 6+. This makes this weapon quite unreliable, and allows an enemy to target it at their leisure. The deathstrike had been a fun, goofy option for several editions, and that doesn't really change. The reality of modern 40k is that by the time this thing fires, the game will be more or less decided, making it either too little too late, or just piling on.
Overall: casual

Leman Russ Battle Tank
I don't want to bury the lede, so let's just start by saying that the LRBT is not a very good choice. I'll talk about why, and I'll talk about ways to mitigate it, but the basic tank simply cannot hold up to the better options in the book.

To start, the LRBT is one of the few vehicles to become less durable in the change to 8th. In the past, the front armor 14 and long range meant that long range anti-tank weapons actually struggled to hurt the basic Russ. Instead, most Russes went down to either meltas or close combat. Now, instead of a lascannon hit having only a 1/3 chance of stripping a hull point, it has about a 5/9 chance of stripping 3.5 wounds. Meltas now strip 3.5 wounds half the time, even at full range. The tank is actually more durable against combat now, but the days of the LRBT shrugging off enemy lascannons are over.

To make matters worse, the LRBT is pretty pillow fisted. In prior editions, even the basic battle cannon had a really good chance of hitting, and when it did, it laid a Strength 8, AP3 hit on everything it touched. It now averages just under two hits a turn at Strength 8, Ap-2, and Damage d3. It's hard to tell what the ideal target for it is. I guess multiwound models, to get the most out of the d3 damage, but it's not an efficient anti-tank gun, and doesn't have the shots to really threaten infantry. An admittedly better is the Eradicator Nova Cannon, which drops to S6 but prevents units from gaining the benefit of cover. (It also halves the battle cannon's range.) This is pretty clearly meant to clear enemy infantry, but will still average less than a dead marine a turn. The exterminator cannon again went from four shots, twin linked, to... just four shots. Autcannons are not good enough for two of them to justify a Leman Russ chassis. Finally, that leaves us with the Vanquisher cannon, which has S8, AP-3, and damage d6, with the ability to roll two dice pick the highest regardless of range. This is actually worse than a basic lascannon against T8 targets, so keep that in mind. The Battle Cannon is technically the cheapest option, but it's only three points less than the other choices, so I wouldn't call it the budget option. Still, if you feel the need to run a Leman Russ, I would go battle cannon, simply because it can do anything the other three offer, while having luxurious range.

The hull and sponson options don't exactly make the tank great, but they are, surprisingly, more of a reason to buy the tank than in prior editions. I'm pro heavy bolters, and three of them will always force some saves on nearly any target. The hull lascannon probably makes more sense in an infantry squad or tank commander, because full price for a BS4+ lascannon on a fire magnet is not a great plan. I generally feel the same way about multimelta sponsons. Plasma sponsons are actually a pretty good buy, although they are only heavy d3. Still, Russes have a special rule that causes the model to only lose six wounds if an overcharged plasma rolls a one. That's a steep price to pay, especially since you also lose the ability to shoot plasma. IG have no shortage of access to plasma, so I'm not sure I'd shoehorn them in here. Finally, heavy flamers, while priced at full retail, are intriguing, as you can move and shoot all three to full effect. The “Fireball pattern” Russ seems more fun than powerful, simply because the LRBT cannot fall back out of combat and still shoot. This means that if you don't kill what you hit with the heavy flamers, odds are, the Russ will be assaulted, and not shooting for at least a turn.

Is there any good news? Well, the LRBT has a healthy move of 10”, meaning it no longer is a lumbering behemoth. It also does have a special rule allowing turret weapons to ignore the -1 penalty for moving and shooting. If I were forced to play this unit in a game, I would probably go for the battle cannon with single heavy bolter, and use it's speed to hassle the enemy on the flanks. It's a bit pricy, even in this skinny version, at 162pts, but I just do not see any traditional gunline use for this unit.

Overall: semi-competitive

Leman Russ Demolisher

The Index splits the Leman Russ variants along familiar lines, although the demolisher variants no longer enjoy any enhanced durability. Instead, the split seem to be made primarily on cost, with the demolisher variants clocking in at one higher power level, presumably because the have usually had more expensive sponson/hull weapons, as the only turret option dramatically more expensive is the actual demolisher cannon itself. The punisher is actually the cheapest possible LR turret weapon! The split in the index also reflects the kit being split, and thus allows GW to only include the rules that are appropriate for each half in the box, although SM scouts, one of the few other unit choices split between two model boxes, are a single unit entry.

Outside of price and turret options, everything said about the LRBT applies to the Demolisher, so lets look at those turret options. The Demolisher cannon itself is an impressive piece of kit. Retaining it's traditional 24” range, it has d3 shots, but d6 against units with more than five models, making it far more versatile. Even against monsters and vehicles, the Demolisher cannon will bad touch most targets with S10, AP-3, and a healthy d6 damage. So, you have basically a d3 shot lascannon that can move and shoot without penalty, that can also go full blast against large units. This power comes at a healthy price tag, at 40 points above the chassis. Still, if you want a tank that will do some damage, this is your girl. The executioner cannon, which was a three shot small blast before, is now merely heavy d6... which is the same as a lot of single small blasts, like frag missiles. It can be supercharged, and if you roll a one or more ones to hit, the model takes d6 mortal wounds. So... don't do that unless you have rerolls. This option isn't horribly expensive, but no army is spoilt for plasma choice more than IG. You can buy a lot of Special Weapon Squads with plasma guns for the price of a single LR Executioner. Finally, the Punisher gatling cannon offers 20 shots at S5, focusing on sheer volume of fire. In many ways, this is the strongest option, fully loaded with heavy bolters and a storm bolter at 178pts, this puts out a 31-33 shots. The only thing to keep in mind is that the Taurox prime with mini gatling cannon does much the same thing for cheaper, but S5 is admittedly better against a broad array of targets (anything with T4, T5, or T8) As a leman russ, it can move and shoot without penalty, meaning you're forcing quite a few saves against almost any target. If you had to include a Russ, I'd probably go with this one.

Overall: semi-competitive

TLDR: spam conscripts, scions, and heavy weapons teams/artillery

I read it all and thought it was well done. I agreed with almost all of it. You might also mention for FRFSRF that the sergeant should toss a frag grenade if the target is within 6". This is also a good idea if you use Get Back in the Fight since the target is probably close enough.

This assumes that the sergeant isn't armed with a better shooting weapon, such as a bolter.

An interesting read, this edition has reinforced my belief that GW put grenade launchers on the cadian sprue to taunt us and remind us that we can't have nice things.

Just a heads up; you have the points value for missile launchers wrong, they're 20 pts.

Good read, looking forward to the rest!

Would you guys take Elysians or Scion command squad. They are both BS3+. Elysians don't have hot-shot las but don't matter since you want to equip them with plasmas anyways

Scions- 9 pts, 4+ armor, LD6

Elysians-7 pts, 5+, LD8

JB wrote:I read it all and thought it was well done. I agreed with almost all of it. You might also mention for FRFSRF that the sergeant should toss a frag grenade if the target is within 6". This is also a good idea if you use Get Back in the Fight since the target is probably close enough.

This assumes that the sergeant isn't armed with a better shooting weapon, such as a bolter.

Thanks, that's exactly the sort of little technique or tip that I really want to add. I'll add that to my discussion of that order.

Col_Caffran wrote:An interesting read, this edition has reinforced my belief that GW put grenade launchers on the cadian sprue to taunt us and remind us that we can't have nice things.

Just a heads up; you have the points value for missile launchers wrong, they're 20 pts.

Wow, well... I"m not sure that helps my view of the poor thing any! Thanks for the heads up.

And GW's lack of understanding how poor the grenade launcher must be one of the biggest mysteries. Nearly every other unit or upgrade has had at least one moment in the sun, or is at least good in really big games. I guess the mortar has consistently been lousy, but ignores LOS is at least a tangible reason to take them, and they're dirt cheap now. The Grenade Launcher has been objectively worse than the plasma gun forever.

Otto von Bludd wrote:Good read, looking forward to the rest!

It'll be slow. Once I get into the units, I imagine things will move a bit more, as there is less mathhammer, but I hope to have major updates every couple of days or so.

fe40k wrote:TLDR: spam conscripts, scions, and heavy weapons teams/artillery

From what I've seen, you're not wrong. There are a few units just so clearly better than the rest of the list that a tournament list will likely be built from a pretty narrow palette: conscripts, scions, aura characters, heavy weapon squads, manticores, and possibly superheavies. That gives you durability, numbers, and crazy damage dealing. When I build my hard core tournament lists, that's what I'll be looking at as well.

Still, the goal of this isn't to belabor that point, which will be repeated ad naseum. My goal is to do two things: show how the rest of the list can excel, or at least be useful; and to help newer players with some of the basic decisions and gameplay scenarios they will encounter. Most players aren't that competitive, but most players still want to at least put up a fight. So I want to help them build more effective lists, not the most effective list.

What is so bad about grenade launchers? They seem like a decent all purpose special weapon to me.

5 pts, for two fire options at 24", both asault.

Sure, it's not as good as a flamer for multi target short range, although it's cheaper. It's not as good as a plasma gun for single target mid range, although it's cheaper. and it's not as good as a meltagun for short range single target, although it's a lot cheaper.

Instead it's just mediocre at all those things, at a pretty good range and for cheaper. It seems a good weapon if you're not sure what your lowly infantry squad may end up facing off against. For a squad which only costs 40 points, an extra 5 to give it a multi use weapon seems ok to me.

 argonak wrote:
What is so bad about grenade launchers? They seem like a decent all purpose special weapon to me.

5 pts, for two fire options at 24", both asault.

Sure, it's not as good as a flamer for multi target short range, although it's cheaper. It's not as good as a plasma gun for single target mid range, although it's cheaper. and it's not as good as a meltagun for short range single target, although it's a lot cheaper.

Instead it's just mediocre at all those things, at a pretty good range and for cheaper. It seems a good weapon if you're not sure what your lowly infantry squad may end up facing off against. For a squad which only costs 40 points, an extra 5 to give it a multi use weapon seems ok to me.

It's just an inferior weapon. Compared to plasma guns outside rapid fire range, it doens't do anything that much better. Against GEQs, it deals 40% more wounds with the frag grenade, and against MEQs, it deals less than half. And it just gets worse from there one. The plasma gun is better than the krak grenade in every single application. So, the only scenarious where it actually is better is when you face low toughness infantry with bad armour, but even then it's basically 3-4 lasguns worth of firepower. There is absolutely no shortage of weapons in a guard army to deal with the kind of stuff the grenade launcher is good against, so why not just get a plasma gun that is better against harder units for just 2 more points?

If, and I mean IF i were touse grenade launchers it would be in special weapon teams for a grand total of 39 pts. It is a elite slot and you get three guys with lasguns as well. Its not great but if you need to fill some points *shrugs* also whilenyou can get a mortar team for cheaper you can use the three lasguns to soak wounds for the launchers.

Just a idea

 Ir0njack wrote:
If, and I mean IF i were touse grenade launchers it would be in special weapon teams for a grand total of 39 pts. It is a elite slot and you get three guys with lasguns as well. Its not great but if you need to fill some points *shrugs* also whilenyou can get a mortar team for cheaper you can use the three lasguns to soak wounds for the launchers.

Just a idea

The problem with this is that a mortar HWS would cost 24 points and be arguably more killy. If you found 9 points extra, you could get 3 more mortars. Of course, heavy support slots are a bit more rare but this is still an edition where slots are cheap, as you get 6 HS slots for a 30 points tax. And if you're worried about going last with too many units to deploy, you wouldn't use SWS anyway.

So yeah, if I were to use grenade launchers, it would be a cheap way to deploy them. I have used them before, when they were 5 points and the plasma gun or meltagun were 15 and 10 respectively, but right now I can't see any place for it.

Nice summary. I'm really leaning towards mass heavy flamer vehicle use this edition. It's that -1 to hit when moving that just kills most other vehicle weapons for me. I don't want to run a parking lot list.

Yes a Mortar is a Meh weapon, but it is a cheap, multi-purpose Meh weapon. It is about half a Missile Launcher for 1/4 the Price. It is also the only Long Range Anti-Horde Special Weapon you can get. Sure it is a S3 Weapon, but it is a 24" Assault 1d6 Weapon, mix that with a Mortar in your Infantry you are getting 2d6 To Hit Chances, 3d6 for a Special Weapons Squad for just 21 points.
I am not saying this is a 'Competitive' choice, but it is an option especially if you are taking on infantry. and you want to just SPAM 1d6s of shots at the large units of infantry at Long Range.
The orders 'Take Aim' and the better 'Bring it Down' (In my opinion for this kind of set up) will make a difference too.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes a Mortar is a Meh weapon, but it is a cheap, multi-purpose Meh weapon. It is about half a Missile Launcher for 1/4 the Price. It is also the only Long Range Anti-Horde Special Weapon you can get. Sure it is a S3 Weapon, but it is a 24" Assault 1d6 Weapon, mix that with a Mortar in your Infantry you are getting 2d6 To Hit Chances, 3d6 for a Special Weapons Squad for just 21 points.
I am not saying this is a 'Competitive' choice, but it is an option especially if you are taking on infantry. and you want to just SPAM 1d6s of shots at the large units of infantry at Long Range.
The orders 'Take Aim' and the better 'Bring it Down' (In my opinion for this kind of set up) will make a difference too.

So, don't confuse the best option with a good option. AM don't struggle for long range anti-horde, there's no reason to take a deeply subpar option in the special weapon slot. The frag grenade option on the grenade launcher is less than twice as good as a basic lasgun with FRF!SRF!, which is frankly dumb. A special weapon squad with three GLs will run you 39pts, which is pretty cheap, for sure, but is also the same price as a 10 man infantry squad, or a five man ratling squad. the SWS will put out, on average, 13.5 shots at S3 at 24" range, and costs more than a HWS that puts out 9 shots at S5 AP1 and 36" range.

I love grenade launchers. I like the models, I like the concept, I like the ideal of dual shots. I want them to be usable, but I really think that outside of crazy specific uses they just don't do enough. With the range, S6, and d3 Damage, I kind of like them against units that rely more on their invulnerable save, but aren't going to close in, because close in the plasma gun's second shot makes the Grenade Launcher redundant. So, Farseers, squads with storm shields, and that sort of thing aren't bad targets, but are pretty uncommon, and also need to be in the specific 12"-24" band, where they are in range, but not close enough to be outclassed by double tapping plasma.

I think when you start combining two very specific targets (very light hordes, lightly armored multi-wound models) with a specific battlefield situation (mid range), it just becomes too specific a piece of kit for me to recommend in a take on all comers list.

Headquarters

Like elsewhere in the list, the AM HQ choices are simple, utilitarian, and cheap, but in numbers, they become quite potent. Nearly all of them favor buffs and upgrades to raw damage dealing, but that doesn't make them any less valuable.

Company Commanders
After years of bundling officers with their command squads, the Index now free commander to be characters, which allows them to hide more discreetly among a range of squads. This is, for the most part, a really good thing, as it's now a lot easier to prevent a company commander from being shot up early in the game. Outside of that, the actual model has made a pretty straight forward conversion to 8th edition. He hits on a 3+ in both shooting and melee, he has human standard Strength and Toughness of 3, and he has four wounds and three attacks with a 5+ save and a 5++ invulnerable. He's not exactly tough, but between being a character and a decent amount of wounds, he'll take more than incidental shooting to kill. His big feature is being a senior officer, dishing out two orders a turn. All of this is quite cheap. For those that want a more aggressive leader, his three attacks make good use of a power ax of power fist, while he's a good shot with a plasma pistol. Even “fully kitted” he's cheaper than a scout sentinel. Still, with only three attacks, he's not even killing one space marine a turn, but he takes 14 space marine attacks back to be killed.
As hinted at above, part of the skill in building a list will be balancing the number of officers to the number of squads. You want to provide adequate support, but you don't want officers sitting idle. Also, the orders don't dramatically improve the firepower of the target units, aside from FRF!SRF!, which only doubles the lasguns. Still, Get back in the Fight! Alone can come in huge. I'd look to include one for every three to five squads, allowing them to cover some territory and provide buffs. The best way to determine how many to bring is to play this one out. Outside of Get Back in the Fight!, I think you'll find that most of the orders are pretty minor in effect, and it is often better to have more steak and less sizzle.
Overall: Highly Competitive

Tank Commander
Two units in, and we have a Leman Russ. Oh, Imperial Guard, you are awesome. The Tank Commander is a Leman Russ chassis, with all of the options for turret, hull, and sponson weapons. In addition, It gains the ability to give one Tank Order a turn, from its custom set of three, to a non-character Leman Russ within 6”. This all runs 35 points more than a basic Leman Russ. In general, your view of this unit will wax or wane with your view of Leman Russes (to be discussed later), but for now, let's take a deep dive on the orders.

Full Throttle! Allows a tank to make an additional move, with advance, instead of shooting. For when you really need that 20+d6” move with a Russ, this order is there. Since Russes have ample range, this is really about either late game objective grabbing, or moving a fireball Russ (three heavy flamers) closer to a viable target. Best case scenario, either way, is that you have a Leman Russ not shooting, which I think makes this is very corner case order. Still, you will eventually see a time to use this, and you will love it!
Gunners, Kill on Sight!, is the aggressively re-titled “Take Aim!” It allows the Russ to re-roll 1s to hit, which as we've exhaustively shown, is kind of meh for most guns, but amazingly good for plasma. The optimist would point out that using this order reduces the chance of losing wounds to plasma overheats, allowing you to rebuild the classic 5th edition all plasma executioner. The pessimist would point out that doing so requires a pretty expensive executioner, as well as the tank commander, and losing either one affects the synergy pretty profoundly. In a tank heavy force, this works, but I'm not sure I'd build a tournament army around the combo.
Finally, Strike and Shroud! Simply allows a Leman Russ to pop smoke launchers after shooting. This is a secretly great ability, as -1 to hit is a big deal, but Leman Russes can't normally afford to give up shooting. OTOH, when you pop smoke with one tank, it just means the other ones are going to get shot. Still, used timely, it can protect the most threatening tank a little bit.
Overall, the orders, much like the infantry ones, are pleasant little buffs, and not game changers. It allows you to build a legal Armored Company list using the Spearhead Detachment (HQ and heavy supports).

The other major change for the commander over the basic Russ starting at BS3+. Obviously, a Russ that hits more frequently is a good choice, and the jump from 4+ to 3+ is a 33% increase in damage output for a roughly 30% (or lower) cost. All in all, the Commander is a nice upgrade for the Leman Russ... however, it's overall efficacy is tied to the Leman Russ. I'll obviously discuss them in greater detail below, but the commander only helps one of the Russes problems, it's surprisingly low damage output. Outside of Strike and Shroud!, the Commander doesn't help the durability of other Russes, and has the same defensive profile as the basic Russ. While reasonably durable, it seems likely that an enemy that wants to destroy the commander will do so turn one. With little ability to hide otherwise, (the advanced rules for terrain require non-infantry to be 50% obscured to gain cover, and the model still must be wholly within the terrain feature), be careful buying an expensive unit like this. Still, if your meta shifts to more assault armies that can't erase a Leman Russ a turn with shooting, this really buffs an armored task force.
Overall: Semi-Competitive.

Lord Commissar
First off, a Lord Commissar is everything that a basic Commissar is, so much of the discussion about Aura of Discipline or Summary Execution will be below. Unlike prior editions, the Lord does not have any special rules to distinguish himself from his basic peers, but rather an upgraded profile. BS/WS 2+, an extra wound and pip of leadership, carapace armor for a 4+ save, and a 5++ refractor field are the main differences, along with the requirement to buy a power sword, or other Melee weapon from the list. Somewhat oddly, Commissars can explicitly buy two different Melee weapons, which I assume has less to do with the rules than it does with GW selling a lot of commissar models with a powerfist and powersword, or other combination. So, factoring in the mandatory power sword, is a Lord worth 24pts over a basic commissar? Yeah, probably. There are basically two theories with AM characters: the first is to keep them cheap and focus on the steak, not the sizzle. The other is to see them as fairly cheap platforms for BS3+ plasma and/or WS3+, 3Attack power weapons. One at a time they are barely chaff, but two or three characters, all with power weapons, can do the work of countercharge. From that standpoint, if you have the HQ slots, why not spend a few points to turn your morale backstop into a plasma spitting, power ax wielding hero? Instead of spending the points an eversor assassin or squad or rough riders, you could upgrade a commissar to a lord, buy power weapons and pistols for two company commanders, and even toss in a priest for the +1 attack buff. In the end, if all you care about is keeping your men in line, than the basic commissar is fine, but the lord is a legit fighter for only twice the price.
Overall: semi-competitive

Tempestor Prime
Much like the line regiments, the Scions lost their bundled officer and command squad combinations, and instead can buy the heroes ala carte. The Prime has the same stat-line as the Company Commander, gaining a 4+ basic save but losing the refractor field. He comes with a hot-shot laspistol, and can get a chainsword for free, or buy a melee weapon. He can upgrade the laspistol to a bolt pistol or plasma pistol, or can trade it for the Tempestus Command Rod. As the Prime is not a Senior officer, he only can give one order a turn base, but with the Command Rod he can again get two. Giving up a single pistol shot is a no brainer if you have two Scion squads in your army, as the orders are much better than even a hot shot laspistol. Much like the Scions, the Prime has Aerial Drop which essentially allows him to deepstrike at will at the end of the movement phase. As he's bereft of weapons, you can always drop him back a bit, but within 6” to order his squads.
Orders with the Prime are pretty similar to the Captain, but due to the ability of Scions or Scion Command to take four special weapons, Take Aim! Is mostly likley your go-to order when you drop (especially if overcharging plasma), but don't overlook FRF!SRF! In the later turns, and as always, Get Back in the Fight! Can make killing off the Scions annoying to the extreme. This isn't a complicated unit, it drops in near two squads, and provides orders to them. For pretty cheap, you get protection against overcharging for 8 plasma guns, or 20 more Hot Shot Lasgun shots! They're a cheap buffing unit for arguably the strongest units in the codex, so they deserve a spot in any list.
Overall: Highly Competitive

Primaris Psyker
For reasons unknowable, the three psychic units from the old AM codex were split off into a sub-faction, the Astra Telepathica. They retain the Astra Militarum keyword, so they can still be included, but you have to go to a different section of the Index. Anyway, the Primaris is pretty unchanged. He has pretty standard stats, with a laspistol and force staff, and he knows Smite and two powers from Psykana. In an interesting twist, It's For Your Own Good no longer is a penalty, but instead simply means that if the psyker dies to Perils within 6”of a commissar, he does not explode, as the watchful Commissar simply executed him.
The Psykana Discipline, like most others, has three powers. Terrifying Visions subtracts two from leadership from an enemy unit within 18”, but requires a Warp Charge of 7. Gaze of the Emperor is only a Warp Charge 6, and draws a line 2d6” from the psyker. Roll a die for each model covered, on a 4+ the unit takes a mortal wound. Psychic Barrier gives a +1 to saving throws for one unit within 12”, on a Warp Charge of 6. The early buzz is for Gaze, for the ability to pile on mortal wounds, but I see 2d6” as pretty short. Still, this is a “one good shot” type of weapon, and on a relatively cheap AM psyker you don’t' need to get that many mortal wounds to make up it's cost. Terrify is somewhat straightforward, but is best used against a squad that's taken a lot of damage, and is already in the danger zone. Something like a Leadership 7 unit that lost four models is a good target, as a decent roll will start gutting the squad. This power doesn't do much on it's own, and AM should be trying to wipe out units, but it's a strong second pick. Psychic Barrier is the power that really gets the mind thinking, as it can affect anything up to superheavy tanks. This is a very straightforward power, as it simply makes one unit more durable. It also stacks with cover. Give a Baneblade a 2+, Give a veteran squad in cover a 3+, or make a giant conscript platoon even harder to shift.

The rap on the Primaris is that outside of Smite, the Astropath does everything he does, but cheaper. Of course, the Primaris is pretty cheap already, and unlike the astropath, can fight a little. He also knows two powers instead of one. If you're trying to wring every point out of your list, than the Primaris can't compete with Astropath, but he's still a darn good unit in his own right.
Overall: Competitive.

Commissar Yarrick
Old man Yarrick, the terror of the greenskin, is the most expensive infantry character available to the AM, combining several strong aura buffs with some choppy hand to hand ability. First off, he's a commissar, meaning he had Summary Execution and Aura of Discipline, so he can share his LD9 and prevent more than one moral casualty in nearby squads. He has a 4++ save and T4, and can ignore losing his last wound on a 3+, meaning he should hopefully stick around a bit. He has a powerfist, a stormbolter, a bolt pistol, and effectively a hotshot laspistol (bale eye). Remember that a model can shoot multiple weapons, but can only either shoot pistols or non-pistols, and the stormbolter will usually be the smarter choice, unless locked in combat.
The sort of big ticket rule for Yarrick is the Hero of Hades Hive, which is the pretty standard rule a lot of heroes have in 8th: re-roll ones to hit within 6”. His rule has the twist of allowing re-rolls of all failed hits when attacking Orks. Generally, I do not like rules that only work against a single faction, because they are of no value (or of intermittent value) in take all comers lists, while they smack of impropriety when you know what your enemy is bringing. Editorializing aside, Yarrick is the only source for re-rolling all ones to hit in the AM list, although Harker allows ones in shooting to be re-rolled. In many ways, Yarrick does the job of both a company commander and a commissar, in that he gives every unit within 6” the equivalent of Take Aim! (which also works in combat) and provides for their morale. One key thing to remember is that you can layer an order on top of this aura, for example giving a squad Bring it Down! To re-rolls ones both to hit and to wound. It also layers with War Hymns or Cold Steel and Courage (Straken's aura). Still, the AM aren't going to build a new death start unit any time soon. The other key thing to notice about Hero of Hades Hive is that it is any Astra Militarum Unit, and is not limited to a specific regiment. Scions, Auxilia, Priests, they all benefit from it.

So how do you get the most out of Yarrick? He clearly pays points for his aura and his combat durability, both of which are unique in the codex. His damage output is no different from a Lord Commissar with powerfist, nor are his number of wounds, he's not holding up against a large number of attacks. Iron Will can keep him alive for a while, and it's easy to treat it like two extra wounds, but every time you fail that roll on the first time, he's just a four wound chump. So, while he cannot take on huge squads on his own, he can hold up a squad for a turn or two. The problem is that he's a character that wants to do two things: buff a gunline, and fight in combat. Against a lot of enemies (orks, Chaos, space marines, Nids) you can castle up, shoot the enemy as they come in, and then counter-charge the survivors. Its' old fashions defensive IG work, and it can win games against those enemies. However, those armies with mobile shooting might not be trying to crash your lines, and instead, they'll shoot you up piece meal. Keep in mind that Yarrick cannot sit behind a line of infantry and heavy weapon squads, buffing them, and then wade out and krump heads in every game. That said, he's a bit harder to kill than anything else have, and his aura really is hard to come by. I think he's too pricy for tournament lists, but he's a great piece for narrative games.
Overall: semi-competitive

Lord Castellan Creed
The hero of Cadia, Creed is the thinking man's special character, with minimal combat ability but a couple of neat buffs. In terms of stats, he's identical to the basic Company Commander but has LD9. He comes with a pair of hot shot pistols and a power sword, which makes him not completely pitiful in close combat, but with limited wounds, S3, and only three attacks, he's not going to want to be in combat. What he does want to do is dish out orders, which he does better than anybody, getting three per turn! He also, if selected as the warlord, gives you two additional Command Points. Those are two nice abilities, as both orders and command points are valuable. However, I'm not sure their worth the point cost. Creed is basically the same price as two Company Commanders with plasma pistols. Not only does he have one fewer order than a pair of captains, he can only be in one place, limiting your coverage for orders. As I'll discuss below, the ability to give an extra order is costed at just under 10 points, which means buying Creed is basically paying about 20 points for two command points. He also locks you into being <Cadia>. Overall, there are certainly worse ways to spend the points than a pair of command points, but AM can more easily form a brigade detachment and have ample command points. Still, I think that in lists that will only run one officer, and maybe need some command points, looking to Creed might work out.
Overall: Competitive

Knight Commander Pask
A special character Tank Commander, Pask does everything a regular tank commander does, but he does up to 11. Instead of being BS3+, he's BS2+. Instead of giving one order (to a non-character Leman Russ) he can give two orders, including other <cadian> Leman Russ Characters. Depending on how you read that, it means you can give orders to Tank Commanders, but not himself (Because he is not another character). All of this is a 45 point bump from the basic Leman Russ, or only 10 points more than a stock Tank Commander. I think the choice for a first tank character is pretty obvious. Unless you hate cadia (and remember, you can have <Cadian> tanks with <Catachan> infantry), I would buy Pask before a basic commander every time.

As for how good he is, some of that does come down to his ability to give orders to himself. If he can, he's pretty amazing, being able to shoot and pop smoke, or load up with plasma and re-roll all ones to hit. If not, he's still real good, rocking accurate shooting with support for two other Leman Russes. However, he's still only 12 wounds, and while it sounds funny to say “only” about a model with 12 wounds, lascannon or bright lance spamming armies will light him up. He also gets expensive, easily hitting 250pts with some builds. But not all armies will have kind of ranged firepower, and he will blow stuff up with the ability to take two Multi-meltas and a lascannon, plus a turret, all at BS2+.

Overall: Competitive

Colonel “Iron Hand” Straken
Switching gears to the <Catachan> part of the Imperium, Straken is in many ways a mirror image of Creed, the bellowing, hard charging hero rather than the calculating tactician. Straken starts with the basic Commander profile, but gets a wide range of buffs, with WS2+, +2 Strength, +1 toughness, an extra wound and attack, LD9, and a whopping 3+ save. He is still a senior officer, giving two orders a turn to his men, he does have a nice aura effect, in which all units within 6” at the start of the fight phase can all make one additional attack. For punching, he retains the 5+++ refractor field, and can re-roll wounds against enemy monsters. Before you get too excited, his bionic arm is only AP1 for 2 damage, making struggle to punch through the thickest chitin. He is dramatically more costly than a company commander, clocking in at the same price as three naked captains, or two with plasma pistol and fist. However, he crams a lot of utility into that package. First, he does nearly the same thing as a Priest's War Hymns, although they simply give +1 attack, which can be used with Fix Bayonets! On the flip side, his aura stacks with Priests, giving everyone within 6” of both +2 attacks in the fight phase.

It's hard to put a price on his combat performance, because one of the few models in the codex that actually wants to be in combat, and can survive it. His durability and damage is roughly comparable to a space marine hero armed with a power maul, for a comparable price, although I think I'd take Rites of Battle (re-roll all ones to hit within 6”) over Cold Steel and Courage (+1 attack in the fight phase) and two orders. OTOH, when used aggressively, Straken (especially paired with a priest) can push out a lot of attacks from catachans. The most obvious use is to pair him with large conscript squads, but the huge problem with this idea is the way that Cold Steel and Courage is written. It says that models within 6”, not units within 6”, which means that you need to give him a smaller, more compact attack wave. You could likely put him in the middle of a densely packed mob of conscripts if you really wanted though, which might be kind of cool. One possibility is to put Straken, a priest, and a veteran squad in either a Valkyrie or a chimera. Give the vets three plasmas, plasma pistol, power fist, shotguns, and heavy flamer, and get out, shoot up a tough squad, and charge in. Straken can use his second order on himself, either to Take Aim while overcharging his plasma pistol, or to Fix Bayonets! And fight twice when engaged. All in all, he's a fighty character that makes squads better in combat, but does not really naturally pair with any of the options available to him. Even fully tooled up, his Catachan shock squad is still just 10 guys with T3and 5+ saves. A third use for the big guy is to use him as a one man counter-charge element. Well, not really one man, as if you include him, you should buy power weapons for some of the infantry squads near him, but basically just drop him, and some power weapons into your firebase. He's only 50pts more than a tool up company commander, but while he cannot fight off dedicated assault troops, he can handle small squads or things like tactical squads pretty well. His Aura will buff up the squads near him, and you can turn an overrun position into a furrball. The final thing to keep in mind about him is that he's actually 20 points more than an Eversor Assassin, who is choppier, arguably more durable, and can certainly get to the fight with his extra charge distance and ability to deploy from reserves. If you're not using Straken's orders and aura, you could save the points and get a pure killer instead. Straken seems like he'd be really good in some gadget lists, and pretty solid in a balanced list with the right tweaks to benefit from his buffs.
Overall: Competitive

Uriah Jacobus
A surprise recruit to the Astra Militarum, this special character comes to use via the Adeptus Ministorum, and is in many ways a buffed Priest. He has a company commander stat-line, plus one wound and one attack. His save is only 6+, but irrelevant with a 4++ invulnerable save from a Rosarius. War Hymns gives +1 attack to all friendly Astra Militarum and Adeptus Ministorum infantry units within 6”, while his banner allows them all to also add +1 to their leadership. He also has Zealot, which allows him to re-roll hits made in a turn in which he charged, made a heroic intervention, or was charged. It's hard to tell what his role is for AM... it's not damage dealing, and aside from +1 Leadership, his aura is the same as the basic Priest at one third the price. If anybody can come up with a good use for this guy, I'm all ears. The only real use I can think of is that Uriah is the only model to give +1 Leadership to commissars, which allows you to have LD10 Lord Commissars, which means all other units within 6” of the Lord are LD10. That still seems far more expensive than just eating the loss of a model a turn, but I guess if you want to have the most stoic gunline ever, you can.
Overall: Casual

A very good read that I know I'll refer to it, but doesn't Pask having the Character keyword mean he can't simply be targeted by lascannons and bright lances like you mentioned?

Edit: oh, wait, his wound characteristic is too high, right... No rules exploitation here!

Great work, looking forward for the next entries!

Superb work so far.

I'm really interested to hear your thoughts regarding St. Celestine as an HQ choice for IG.

Whenever you get round to doing this, is there any chance you could discuss whether or not one or both of her guards are worth it?


Once you've finished, perhaps we could get this put at the beginning of the IG Tactica thread?

Thanks for the kind words, I should have the Elites section done today or tomorrow

 vipoid wrote:

I'm really interested to hear your thoughts regarding St. Celestine as an HQ choice for IG.

Whenever you get round to doing this, is there any chance you could discuss whether or not one or both of her guards are worth it?

Well, I don't see getting to the Allies for a few weeks, so let me share my hottest of takes. Celestine has a lot of aspects to unpack, so let's start with the first one: She gives all ministorum or Astra militarum units a 6++ within six inches, and also buffs sisters Shield of Faith from a 6++ to 5++. A 6++ invulnerable save is like a coupon for a free appetizer: nice, but not enough to change your plans over. Also, the only Ministorum unit to not have an invulnerable save already are pentitent engines, which don't have great synergy with her, being slower. As for the guard, I suppose you could go nuts by leaving her near superheavies or Ogryn, but I really don't see that as an efficient use of her. Go with a Void Shield Generator instead. However, when you look at sisters, a 5++ becomes half decent, and two different units, Seraphim and the Mistress of Repentence, can reroll that save. A 5++ rerolled is actually better than a 4++, so with her buff Seraphim become reasonably durable against even heavy weapons.

Her second ability is that she allows a nearby unit to use an extra Act of Faith, in addition to the one the army gets on a 2+. In practice, this means that she'll always have an act, allowing her an extra move, shot, pile in/fight, or healing. Like the above, this rule really only comes into play if you have at least one more sisters units, so plan accordingly. A unit of Seraphim is not expensive, can screen Celestine, is pretty durable, and can keep up with her, all while being a desperately needed fast attack choice. Seraphim are fairly underwhelming in damage output, but with an act of faith, they do a little better. If Celestie is the only Sisters unit in your army, than her rule guarantees that she will have an act of faith, and not rely on a 2+.

Somewhat uniquely among characters, she can buy a retinue of one or two Geminae. While fairly pricey, each Geminae has a 2+/4++, two wounds, and a power sword at WS3+/S3 with three attacks. More critically, even after they die, Celestine can return one Geminae per turn, with full wounds. Even if she lost both Geminae, if she starts her turn, Celestine can bring one back with her rule, and another back (albeit only at one wound) with an Act of Faith. They do a bit of work, with six total attacks at S3 AP-3, but they are primarily there to tank wounds for the Celestine.

Of course, even if Celestine takes wounds, she has a healthy amount. And even if she runs out, she will return immediately on a 2+. If a Geminae is still alive, she'll join her, if not, she will deepstrike anywhere more than 9" away from the enemy. This is only once a game, but it makes her almost impossible to kill on the first try. (Pro-tip: save a command point re-roll for that 2+ Miraculous Intervention)

So... she's got a minor buff, she fuels her own act of faith, ands he's hard to kill. What exactly does she do? The answer to that is simple: she's a beautiful killing machine. WS2+, six attacks, and effective S7 AP3 Damage2 with her sword. On top of that, she has a shooting attack that's basically a heavy flamer, but assault d6. She cannot take on monsters toe to toe, but as AM, you should be softening up targets like that well ahead of time. With her act of faith, she as a 24+2d6" charge range, making her very able to hit what she wants to assault. When picking targets, I think she has three best case targets. The first are smaller, fast units that she has the speed to chase down and the damage output to actually wipe out. Think bikes, landspeeders, or Crisis Suits. The second are assault units that she can tie up with her high level of durability, especially very large units that could multi-charge and really tie up an AM gunline. Think Gaunts, Orks, or conscripts, that will struggle to kill her, and she can prevent from doing real damage to your lines. Finally, she can target backfield shooting units. Devestators, lootas, etc. She can reach them by turn two at the latest, and stop them from hitting your top units.

I think she's a strong choice, and provides the speed and melee power that nothing in the actual Astra Militarum list comes close to providing. I cannot think of a reason to not run with the Geminae, simply because while they increase her cost pretty dramatically, they also dramatically increase her durability and significantly increase her ability to do damage. She's a big chunk of the list, and can't just be tossed in, for example, you can buy three Assassins for the cost of Celestine with both Geminae. However, when compared to the obvious competition (assassins), offers a lot more versatility and durability, particularly in her ability to move 24" to chase down units, and her ability to take on monsters/vehicles, or any high toughness, high save model.

My final assessment is that she's a toolbox character, and can really operate with a lot of synergy with an AM list. The key is to support her, probably with firepower, so that she can finish off monsters and vehicles, chase down quick units, or tie up hordes. Keep in mind that she will need to destroy a fairly substantial unit to make her points back, and she's here for killing. If used with hesitation or fear, she will struggle to make points back, but if used well, I think she's a rock star.

Overall: highly competitive.

Thank you very much. That's a great help.

Great topic Polonius, I very much appreciate the effort you put in it. I wish it will develop as the "official" 8th edition Astra Militarum discussion thread. On my side I will try to put as many meaningful contributions as I can.



Here are some simple probability results (mean number of damage) that I already put in the other 8th edition thread. It is now more complete with the addition of hot-shot volley gun. I think it has its place here to give some perspective about tempestus scions load-out and what you can expect from one of these powerful squads.


Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons. Give the sergeant a plasma pistol (in order to have him being simply useful, the hot-shot pistol is a total garbage). I count the damage done on the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, while they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot laser guns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.



vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.926
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926


vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778


vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.407
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630


vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519


vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.315
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537

vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.000
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556


Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667


Houston, we've got a problem !

Plasma guns are so much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Hot-shot volley guns are not that bad, they are on par with grenade launchers sometimes, and on some occasions clearly ahead.
Still, they do not justify their high price compared to plasma guns even on standard mode.
Plasma guns on overcharged mode with rerolls consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
Overall at current prices, I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control (which I will look at later).
Don't forget to sprinkle your army list with tempestor primes for these crucial rerolls of .

so I had planned on running 3 Tempestus command squads with 4 plasma guns. However the third will only have 3 plasma guns....

so after reading this article I am wondering if its more effective to discard the 3rd command squad with 3 plasma guns and adding in the Tempestor Prime with rod for its rerolls of 1. and just 2 command squads.

thoughts ?

This is great! I really enjoyed your review of the 5th ed codex and am eagerly awaiting the rest of this one

Since they're really not a standalone army, do you think it'd be reasonable to include Assassins among other IG elites? I was thinking of bringing a pair of Vindicaires to my next game to try them out.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Since they're really not a standalone army, do you think it'd be reasonable to include Assassins among other IG elites? I was thinking of bringing a pair of Vindicaires to my next game to try them out.

I will be covering them, but not along with the other Elites. I'm working on the Elites now, and it's already a pretty bloated section. I'll probably talk about them in a follow up, along with knights, inquisition, and any other high use imperial allies.

Is Pask really worth it anymore? It seems he lost all his gun specific abilities, he was nasty with the vanquisher, and he nasty with the rends on the punisher cannon, but now the rends are gone and so is Crack Shot, the best thing about him seems to be the BS2, and orders which he cant use on himself, is that worth it in the new edition? Its like LR tanks as a whole got wayy better and Pask came down a few notches to compensate.

 Rock The 40K wrote:
Is Pask really worth it anymore? It seems he lost all his gun specific abilities, he was nasty with the vanquisher, and he nasty with the rends on the punisher cannon, but now the rends are gone and so is Crack Shot, the best thing about him seems to be the BS2, and orders which he cant use on himself, is that worth it in the new edition? Its like LR tanks as a whole got wayy better and Pask came down a few notches to compensate.

Where does it say he can't issue Orders to himself?

 Rock The 40K wrote:
Its like LR tanks as a whole got wayy better

Right. This statement requires explanation/cross-examination.

I don't think they're all terrible, but most line up as decidedly mediocre.

 vipoid wrote:

 Rock The 40K wrote:
Is Pask really worth it anymore? It seems he lost all his gun specific abilities, he was nasty with the vanquisher, and he nasty with the rends on the punisher cannon, but now the rends are gone and so is Crack Shot, the best thing about him seems to be the BS2, and orders which he cant use on himself, is that worth it in the new edition? Its like LR tanks as a whole got wayy better and Pask came down a few notches to compensate.

Where does it say he can't issue Orders to himself?

I mean I Hope im wrong, it says he "can issue orders to other leman russ tanks." Which I think implies he can issue orders to himself. The consensus Ive seen around is that he cant do it to himself though.

 Rock The 40K wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Rock The 40K wrote:
Is Pask really worth it anymore? It seems he lost all his gun specific abilities, he was nasty with the vanquisher, and he nasty with the rends on the punisher cannon, but now the rends are gone and so is Crack Shot, the best thing about him seems to be the BS2, and orders which he cant use on himself, is that worth it in the new edition? Its like LR tanks as a whole got wayy better and Pask came down a few notches to compensate.

Where does it say he can't issue Orders to himself?

I mean I Hope im wrong, it says he "can issue orders to other leman russ tanks." Which I think implies he can issue orders to himself. The consensus Ive seen around is that he cant do it to himself though.

Coming from playing MTG when something says "can do to other" it usually means it doesn't benefit from that ability itself, but can only grant it to others of the same type. I'm not sure about here though since GW usually isn't that tight with its wording. I'm hoping it'll come up in a FAQ or something.

Pask can't choose himself but can choose other rank commanders

It really seems large blasts are pretty weak in 8th especially for guard. Versus infantry a large blast template could pretty easily hit 6+ models. Now we have a D6 where we loose half of those hits because of the ballistic skill... Also bye to barrage and other tools that didn't rely on ballistic skill.

At BS4 scatter dice had a 44% chance not to scatter, and beyond that you'd likely still hit 2-3+ models. So now its a D6 on average what a 3.5, ok not so bad right? Well nope cut that in half because of ballistic skill yay (so how about that average of 1-2 hits on a blob of infantry, cuz well that makes sense right!....)

Well on the bright side that means large blasts are much worse versus infantry so get those guardsmen out, and wave goodbye to model placement, just pile them on top of each other!

Yeah, I still think 1d6 should have been the standard for small blasts, and 2d6 (or at a minimum 2d6 drop lowest) for large blasts.

Unifying nearly all blasts into 1d6 was a pretty good deal for small blasts, not so much for large. I suppose 2d6 blasts technically do exist, they're just exceedingly rare (perhaps too rare).

It does still work as a rough rule of thumb for expected performance though. 1d6 weapons have been performing about as well as small blasts, 2d6 about as well as large. So I guess one way of looking at it is that most blast weapons are just small blast now, and true large blasts are incredibly rare.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Pask can't choose himself but can choose other rank commanders

Many people, including myself, disagree with you.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728025.page

There is nothing that prevents Pask from ordering himself.

 Stus67 wrote:

 Rock The 40K wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Rock The 40K wrote:
Is Pask really worth it anymore? It seems he lost all his gun specific abilities, he was nasty with the vanquisher, and he nasty with the rends on the punisher cannon, but now the rends are gone and so is Crack Shot, the best thing about him seems to be the BS2, and orders which he cant use on himself, is that worth it in the new edition? Its like LR tanks as a whole got wayy better and Pask came down a few notches to compensate.

Where does it say he can't issue Orders to himself?

I mean I Hope im wrong, it says he "can issue orders to other leman russ tanks." Which I think implies he can issue orders to himself. The consensus Ive seen around is that he cant do it to himself though.

Coming from playing MTG when something says "can do to other" it usually means it doesn't benefit from that ability itself, but can only grant it to others of the same type. I'm not sure about here though since GW usually isn't that tight with its wording. I'm hoping it'll come up in a FAQ or something.

Pask can certainly order himself although this is not apparent from the Index.

Page 41 of the Index : Knight Commander pask can issue orders to a friendly CADIAN LEMAN RUSS. Keywords: Cadian, Leman Russ (amongst other items)

Now, let us look at the BRB page 179 Aura abilities. It specifically states that a Lord of Contagion may use Nurgle's gift on himself as it affects all Death Guard models, and given that he has the Death Guard keyword himself, he will benefit himself as well.

I think this issue is quite crystal clear when you refer to the BRB.

Edit: Beat me to the answer by a minute lol.

From a tactical standpoint, Pask being able to order himself moves him from "middling" to "intriguing." Unless he's paired with a superheavy or a ton of artillery, he's going to get shot to hell turn one. I don't see a problem with him giving orders, but if that gets FAQ'd, it does limit his efficacy, but I just don't' see him (or any Russes) as top shelf units.

easypeasylemonsquezy wrote:It really seems large blasts are pretty weak in 8th especially for guard. Versus infantry a large blast template could pretty easily hit 6+ models. Now we have a D6 where we loose half of those hits because of the ballistic skill... Also bye to barrage and other tools that didn't rely on ballistic skill.

At BS4 scatter dice had a 44% chance not to scatter, and beyond that you'd likely still hit 2-3+ models. So now its a D6 on average what a 3.5, ok not so bad right? Well nope cut that in half because of ballistic skill yay (so how about that average of 1-2 hits on a blob of infantry, cuz well that makes sense right!....)

Well on the bright side that means large blasts are much worse versus infantry so get those guardsmen out, and wave goodbye to model placement, just pile them on top of each other!

Yeah, people forget that large blasts were actually fairly reliable in the past. 1/3 of the time they hit directly, and most of the time they only deviated a few inches. Particualry against large units, they were deadly, and if they hit a bunched up unit, they could easily lay 8 or more wounds on a unit. The highest maximum number of hits with a basic LRBT is now six (a shockingly tiny percentage of the time) with the bulk of shots resulting in 1-2 hits. I liked the change in theory, but as presented for the LRBT, it hurts them pretty bad.

I think that GW really felt that they new rules would make vehicles more durable in general, but the LRBT wasn't even close to fragile from long range shooting. AV14 was tough to crack at range. I lost most of my russes to meltas or just to krak grenades in assault (pre errata). the new rules actually make it lot easier for enemies to shoot Russes off the board, which is interesting.

ross-128 wrote:Yeah, I still think 1d6 should have been the standard for small blasts, and 2d6 (or at a minimum 2d6 drop lowest) for large blasts.

Unifying nearly all blasts into 1d6 was a pretty good deal for small blasts, not so much for large. I suppose 2d6 blasts technically do exist, they're just exceedingly rare (perhaps too rare).

It does still work as a rough rule of thumb for expected performance though. 1d6 weapons have been performing about as well as small blasts, 2d6 about as well as large. So I guess one way of looking at it is that most blast weapons are just small blast now, and true large blasts are incredibly rare.

Well, part of the problem is balancing the shot aganist both tanks and infantry. 2d6 krak missile shots will chew up nearly any large model! I don't have an easy solution, but I know that the battle cannon is weak tea.

Elites
Once a relatively boring part of the army list, the Elites section has blossomed from it's past of four simple options. Two game wide trends , and one army specific one, caused a spike in the Elites section. First, command squads all shifted from HQ choices to Elites, and for the AM they became decoupled from their officers. Second, all of the support characters that used to not take up slots or were attached to command squads were all moved here. Finally, the venerable infantry platoon, a unique structure to the AM since 2nd edition in the late 1990s, was broken up, with several parts moving here to Elites. All of this makes the current Elites section a cornucopia of delights!

Master of Ordnance
For my own writing ease, I tackle these units more or less in the order of the books, and oddly, the Master of Ordnance is the first Elites choice in the Index, and the third overall. He has what Warmachine players call “victim stats,” meaning he cannot be expected to endure any actual fighting. His only wargear is a pistol. However, he has, as you'd imagine, a very nice special rule, and a nifty little aura. His aura is cunningly related to Ordnance, and the mastery of the same, giving a range of artillery vehicles the ability to re-roll ones to hit, assuming they are within 3” of the MoO, and are targeting enemy units over 36” away. With artillery being pretty good in this edition, this is a fine ability, even if the blind spot will be a factor more than you'd initially think. His other party trick is the ability to, if he did not move, shoot a battle cannon shot anywhere within 100”, with -1 to hit if the target is out of line of sight. With BS3+, that will do a bit of work. GW knows it audience by stating that only one Artillery Barrage can be fired per turn, regardless of how many models have the rule. (somewhat bizarrely, the artillery barrage is listed as a weapon profile, but not as wargear or a special rule, so technically, there's nothing saying he can actually use it.... Even more bizarrely, it's listed as a ranged weapon in the points list!) The Master is priced right around the point where you aren't going to spam him, because that would get silly and expensive, but he's cheap enough that if you run the artillery, he's a sound investment.
Overall: Competitive

Platoon Commander
To borrow another phrase from Warmachine, the Platoon Commander is an order on a stick. He doesn't do much other than provide a single order, and gives up a wound from his more senior counterpart. He does still have a refractor field, and can take the same weapons as a captain with the same skill, so he can provide some punch... but really, who isn't going to pay 10pts more for an extra wound and order? Since I've covered orders in fairly complex detail, the question for the Platoon Commander is: when would only ever want one order? The answer, simply put, is whenever you only have one squad that could benefit. If you had a squad of plasma vets in a valkyrie or Chimera, you could pay a few points for Take Aim! To avoid overcharge deaths. If you had a conscript screen that operated apart from the fire base (or you don't have a fire base at all) than a single order is all you need. Of course, captains can give the second order to themselves, allowing them to move further, fight twice, or fall back and shoot. Virtually all AM armies with basic infantry will run Company Commanders by default, but taking the Platoon Commander requires a plan. However, in those instances where the second order would be wasted, you can save a few points. Also, with command squads now limited to the number of officers, if you want to spam command squads, you'll want to include more of these guys.
Overall: competitive

Command Squad
No unit has fallen further in status than the poor command squad. In prior editions, the AM had two command squads, each permanently attached to either company or platoon commanders. Company command always had the option for standards and medics, and in more recent editions had veteran level BS. Now, they are all one, with BS3+, the abilty to take a single heavy weapon, up to four special weapons, a heavy flamer, a vox, a regimental standard, or a medipack. Unlike in prior editions, there is no real ability for the command squad to hide or gain cover, and they have no innate defensive tech such as carapace armor or camo cloaks. So, what you have are four straight shooting lads with T3 and 5+ saves, making them easy bolter bait. The initial consensus is to load them up with weapons, buy in three packs, and fill up a transport with BS3+ special weapons. I can't really disagree with that, as that will pack a hell of a wollop, and isn't all that expensive, aside from the transport. For that reason, I favor scions, but for the fans of mechanization, you can basically run fire dragons for a lot cheaper!
A goofier, and more classical option is to keep the squad with lasguns, but give them a standard and medic. This allows all squads in 6” to add 1 to their leadership, and can return a wound to a unit on a 4+. This unnecessary dice rolling on a fairly fragile platform sours me, but putting even one model back on the board can often pay for itself. This is a neat little support unit, but the codex is simply chock full of neat little support units in the 30-50pt range, and you can't buy them all. For serious play, go with special weapon spam, but for fun games, break out your flags and medics. EDIT: as of the 7/2/17 FAQ command squads are limited to one per officer, which makes the ability to spam these a lot more difficult. That doesn't change them being extremely efficient special weapon platforms.
Overall: highly competitive

Special Weapon Squad
Limited to six men with three special weapons, the humble SWS retains it's low leadership and BS4+ befitting basic guardsmen with no sarge. In an “it is still true, and it's still kind of funny” moment, I remind my reader that the SWS is one of the very few 40k units without a special rule of any kind. It's six models with a single statline, and some weapons. That's it. It's an odd choice for the Elites section, but it's hard to think of a better place for them, aside from troops, in all honesty. Anyway, we are spoiled for choice for units that can take multiple special weapons, and nearly all of them do it better than the actually designated Special Weapon Squad. Command squads have BS3+ and can take a fourth gun, veterans have more bodies and BS3+, Scions have, well, quite a bit going for them.
So, why take the SWS? Easy... it's the only place to get the demolition charge. Somewhat cleverly designated a grenade, the demo charge has the expected d6 shots, still S8 with AP3 and d3 damage. It's also cheaper than a flamer (it's natural pairing), making a squad with two flamers and a demo charge well under 50 points. It's short ranged and fragile, but you can cram two into a transport. It might not be the strongest option, but if you really like hand tossed explosions, its' your best choice. For dedicated fluff heads, the SWS with three sniper rifles and three spotters makes an actually functional military unit, compared to the idea of a squad full of sniper rifles, but it's of very marginal efficacy.
However, SWS is also the must purely cost effective ways to load up on special weapons. While I think most players will run out of plasma, and will put them on other platforms, the SWS does allow you to swamp the board with dirt cheap base units with cheap plasma guns. 45pts gets you six men with three plasma guns, which is a unit that you can afford to lose to dedicated shooting, but can shrug off one or two random wounds comfortably. Consider mixing this type of MSU with a general purpose aura, particularly Harker, so you can overcharge with little risk. SWS is also now a lot easier to spam than command squads, thanks to the FAQ.
Overall: Competitive

Veterans
After two editions as troops, the veterans have moved back to their rightful place as Elites, which is fine since 8th edition has given up any pretense of Troops choices as a moral imperative. A fairly complicated unit, the vets, alone of the regimental guard infantry, can swap lasguns for shotguns, which give up 12” of range to become Assault 2 and strength 4 at half range. This is simply cool, and gives them a dangerous and fun edge. As in prior editions, the Vets are BS3+, but otherwise basic guardsmen. Unlike prior editions, the only real options are weapon related, and the doctrines available in the past are gone. (On a tangent, it's annoying that they included rules for shotguns, which have never had models aside from a single cadian lieutenant in 2nd edition, but not carapace armor, which is clearly on Vostroyon models top to bottom.)
Still, the weapon options available are quite nice. They can take a heavy, up to three special weapons, plus a heavy flamer. In addition, the sarge can take all the pistol and melee options, including a power fist. Vets got a price break from 7th edition, and are really cheap enough to serve as your line troops. The basic builds are pretty straightforward, with triple plasma and lascannon as your main firepower build, and triple melta forming the core of a tank hunter build, with heavy flamer, power first, plasma pistol, or even a heavy weapon added to taste. As you'd expect, the latter build should invest in shotguns and a transport. Vets are one of the very few sources of BS3+ heavy weapons, and I'd stick to lascannons to maximize their value. Compared to Command Squads, Vets are not the most efficient delivery mechanism for special weapons, but enjoy a bit more durability, but less than Scions. As a rule, unless you're using the specific advantages of Vets, such as the heavy flamer or shotguns, I’d make sure you would be better off with Scions or Command squads.
Overall: Competitive

Commissars
It was frustrating discussing Lord Commissars or Yarrick prior to the basic model, who provide a crucial lynchpin for the modern Astra Militarum. With the same statline as a platoon commander but with LD8, the commissar isn't going to survive much, and while he can take any pistol or melee weapon, he must come stock with the iconic bolt pistol. However, he's not there to fight, but to keep your soldiers “motivated.” For starters, any unit within 6” can use his leadership, which is great for low morale troops like conscripts. More callously, his coldy named Summary Execution rule means that no unit within 6” will lose more than one model to a failed morale check. This means that a single model can stand among a gunline, and not only buff their morale, but even if the dice go south, keep a squad from dissolving.
The synergy of summary execution with the only large squad we have, conscripts, is self evident. Instead of melting due to morale, they require the enemy to now kill virtually all of them the old fashioned way. It's a great combo, and doesn't need to be spammed or abused to be effective. Even a single squad, with a single man in black, can do great work. In the first 3rd Edition IG codex, there was a brief army building guide that said “Always take 2-3 commissars.” (bold from original text) that was a steep claim at the time, but is now basically true. The AM have a toolbox full of buffs to increase our leadership or allow re-rolls to morale. A simple character does one better, in minimizing the loss from failed checks. To an extent, with them around, points spent preventing failed morale are just wasted, as you can just lose another four or six point model. While OP, it's nice to finally see such an iconic and beloved model get nice rules.
Overall: highly Competitive

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad
This unit, another casualty of the command squad decoupling, is generally the same as the basic AM command squad, minus the ability to take heavy weapons or a heavy flamer. Instead, they can take all the basic special weapons plus the hot shot volley gun, discussed in more detail below. More crucially, they gain carapace armor and the Aerial Drop rule, the latter of which allows the squad to be deployed at the end of any movement phase anywhere more than 9” from an enemy unit. If this sounds like a really cheap way to have accurately deepstriking special weapons, welcome to the 8th edition hype train. There's nothing clever I can write about these guys. They technically have the option for standard and medic, but I’m not sure I can think or a reason to take those. MT Command compete most notably with Scions themselves, who can take four specials as well, but in a 10 man platform instead of the all killer, no filler four man command squad. That said, 10 scions is not easy to kill, so scion squads can hand around a bit longer. In terms of sheer damage on time, and on target, this is the unit of choice. As of the first FAQ, these are limited to one per Tempestus Prime, which seems to strongly push for a bit of a balanced diet (Prime, Scions, and Command squad).
Overall: Highly competitive

Ogryns
A unit choice dating back to Rogue Trader, Ogryn are the Ogres in space that help to round out the fantasy tropes common in early 40k. Obstensibly the assault specialists, Ogryn have been underwhelming since I started playing 3rd edition. By far the biggest issue with Ogryn was always a limited ability to deal damage in combat, with no access to power wepaons. Of course, now that 8th edition had introduced AP modifiers, I was expecting Ogryn to gain at least a little soemthing to help crack armor. And... prepare to be disappointed. The good news is that Ogryn are now substnatially cheap, a 5+ save actually means soemthing now, and they got a slight morale bump. The bad news is that there are now dozens of weapons that deal multiple wounds, in both combat and shooting, and Ogryn are one of the few multi-wound units to not gain a wound in the new edition. So, Ogryn aren't OP, but are they usable?
Yeah, I think they are. They are just cheap enough that they can be taken in bulk, and do benefit from support, specifically priests, for War Hymsn, and astropaths for Fortify. They hit reasonably hard on the charge, and while they can't reduce armor saves, hitting and wound most things on 3+s will result in a lot of saves to roll. Somewhat unusally, they have a three shot gun, giving them far mroe firepower than most shock units, although don't confuse them for anything other than a shock unit. Ogryns are worst used against terminators, as their combination of a 2+ save and powerfists will not end well. However, they will cut through Orks or gaunts like butter, and he will also do efficient work against models with only an invulnerable save. Ogryn certainly can do things, but the question is more if your army needs it. There are cheaper and mroe versitle counter assault units avilable from other armies like assassins, but Ogryn do benefit from in army buffs. On the whole, they are a specialist unit that pretty much a good amount of work to include in an army, which I think limits their ceiling.
Overall: semi-competitive

Bullgryns
The mroe focused cousin of the Ogryn, Bullgryns trade their ripper gun for one of two sheilds and either a grenadier gauntlet or a Bullgryn Maul. Bullgryn are crazy durable, starting with a basic 4+ save, and gaining either a 4++ with the bruteshield or a 2+ with the slabshield. These can, and should, be mixed in the unit. It will take a truley dedicated effort to chew through these lads. the Gauntlet appears somewhat unfortunate, as an assault d6 gun with only S4. The Maul is actually slightly cheaper, and is a basic power maul with damage 2. With WS3+, S7, AP-1, and Damage 2 with three attacks (four on the charge), this is a unit that will hurt what it charges. At over 40pts per model, it should! Bullgryns, like all Ogryn, take up three slots in a transport, so putting them in a Chimera or valkyrie isn't a great idea. Depending on how you view buying Officers with <militarum axulia> regiment and giving orders to the Auxilia, you can get a lot of Bullgryns with Move!Move!Move! as well as Fix Bayonets!

Unlike basic Ogryn, Bullgryns don't mind mixing it up with terminators or monsters, and in many ways they are the ideal unit to send against Assault Terminators. They are also legit against vehicles, wounding all but the heaviest on fours with AP1. If they're not swining on something either high toughness or very hard hitting, they will struggle to really make their points back. I would screen them with conscripts to prevent them from being tarpitted or assaulted by units like Harliquins. Also unlike basic Ogryn, I don't think Bullgryn are really meant for counter assault. I think they're a shock unit, meant to lead attacks. I think you should be careful buying them, but if your play style is agressive, Bullgryns are one of the most durable units, and also the most capabel in hand to hand.
Overall: Competitive

Ratlings
Another ancient unit, Ratlings are the final abhuman squad in the index. They are sniper specialists, trading any ability to perform other battlefiled tasks for some sniping buffs. They are a rare S2/T2, with only a 6+ save, but if they are in cover, they get +2 to their save. They can deploy after all other units are deployed, anywhere mroe than 18" from the enemy (so, basically infiltrate). And they can move after shooting, allowing them to set up more shots. They are BS3+, and sniper rifiles are S4 and do an extra mortal wound on a 6+ to wound. In terms of damage, they're kind of wimpy, but they can target any character, even if they aren't the closest. It's still hard to actually do wounds, as 10 shots will do about one normal wound and one mortal wound to a T4/3+ save model. Ratlings are cheap, and will average about one mortal wound per turn with 36" range. If enemy support chracters are eating your lunch, Ratlings are the most efficient snipers you can find, but they are a unit with a narrow ideal target.
Overall: semi-competitive.

Officer of the fleet
Probably the first model to really feel out of place, the Officer of the Fleet's main ability is to target within 18", and then all Aeronautica Imperialis units can reroll ones to hit against that unit. Since the only AI unit is the valkyrie, with a not horribly impressive rack of shooting, he's clearly waiting for the Forge World indexes. Then, of course, he's just one more source of re-rolling onces to hit, but he has the burden of needing to be close to the target unit. He also can call in an air strike which does nothing half the time, d3 Mortal wounds a third of the time, and 3 mortal wounds a sixth of the time. He's on the cheaper end of AM support characters, but unless you're running a flyer wing, I'd leave him at home.
Overall: semi-competitive

Techpriest Enginseer
A reasonably durable, slightly choppy character that can heal d3 wounds a turn from any vehicle, this guy has "stand me next to a superheavy" written all over him. He's not exactly cheap, but he can keep units alive, or even undo degradation. I'm concerned that outside of superheavies, too many other vehicles can be shot up in one turn. I"m also concerned that with only move 6", he'll struggle to be in the right place at the right time. Still, he's a good insurance policy for superheavies.
Overall: competitive

Ministorum Priest
As hinted at, the priest, through his War Hymns rule, gives +1 attack to all units within 6". He can also personally re-roll hits on the first turn he fights, he can take a good range of melee weapons, and he rocks a 4++ with four wounds. He's a force multiplier, turning conscripts insto two attack models, or making Ogryn even punchier. If you are serious about a unit doing damage in combat, you should strongly consider a priest. Oddly, he's only WS4+. His buff stacks with Strackens, and can also be combined with "Fix Bayonets" to allow a unit to swing twice, both times with an extra attack. Also, don't forget that he gives himself an extra attack.
Overall: highly competitive.

Wyrdvane Psykers
A unit of psyckers, Wyrdvanes only get one dice on psychic tests, but can add +1 if the squad has three or more models, and +2 if six or more. all in all, this means that they are less capabel of casting powers than a primaris for more points, all while not being a character and thus able to hide from shooting. If you have a unit of these, break them up and use them as Astropaths, because Wyrdvanes are simply poor.
Overall: casual

Astropath
Let's not bury the lede on this guy: 12 pt psyker, albeit one that only gets 1d6 when testing for Smite. Still, 12 points buys you a pretty good chance at Psychic Barrier, making it a bargain. On a long enough scale, Astropaths are really the only psykers that the AM needs, althoughI prefer buying proper Primaris to get a touch of combat punch. You can put them with your tanks, or your gunline, or even riding along with vets. Even Smite succeeds a third of the time with them, and for that price, you can just buy three.
Overall: highly competitive.

Color Sergeant Kell
Hey, it's yet another support character! But this one is famous! Kell embodies the sort of “kind of good in fighting, has a couple of decent buffs, and doesn't cost all that much” philosophy that seems to permeate the Index. He has a company commander statline, but swaps the refractor field for carapace armor (4+ save). He has a powerfist and a power sword, which provides a bit of punch in combat, but his real value is in allowing all Cadian units within 6” to reroll morale. This is a pretty rare ability, and while the AM have a lot of ways to deal with morale, this is a different option. He also allows one officer within 6” to give an extra order, an ability that's neat but not overly valuable. Finally, he can take wounds for Creed if within 3”, which seems to reflect his classic role as a bodyguard. He costs a bit more than a company commander with fist and plasma pistol, so his appeal is basically in the morale re-rolls and keeping Creed alive. With commissars and command point rerolls, I don't rate the morale re-roll all that highly, and Creed shouldn't be taking too much damage as a character, so I think Kell is destined for narrative play.
Overall: Casual

Sergeant Harker
Harker, in a refreshing change of pace, offers some legitimate offensive firepower and a very simple, broad buff. Payback, his custom heavy bolter, is assault 3, with AP-2, which he shoots at a healthy BS3+, all at 36” range. This isn't overwhelming, but solid firepower. His rule, somewhat embarrassingly named Harkes Hellraisers, allows all Catachan units within 6” to re-roll all ones in the shooting phase. The key here is to look up all the artillery, tanks, and even super heavies, and note that they can all be keyed to Catachan. This means Harker can make a Baneblade re-roll ones to hit, or a handful of veteran squads, or even a cluster of dirt cheap mortar squads. He's a true force multiplier, with the ability to give the equivalence of Take Aim! To multiple squads, earning his points back easily with the 16% damage increase, even before he starts shooting Payback. Further, his rule is an aura, not an order, so can be stack with FRF!SRF! Or Bring it Down! For more fun. He's one of the true gems of the codex, as he can make anything better, as long as there is enough of it to justify his points.
Overall: Highly Competitive

Nork Deddog
Aside from Yarrick, Nork is the oldest named character in the book, going back to 2nd edition, and his role hasn't changed very much. He has the standard bodyguard type rule (if a character takes a wound within 3", on a 2+ Nork takes a mortal wound instead) that applies to any AM character. Since characters can hide from shooting, his bodyguarding does the most good in close combat... which works out, because he's pretty good in hand to hand. He had a standard Ogryn profile for just under three times the price and twice the wounds, but he gains the Huge Knife, which rocks AP-1 and Damage two. He can also make one of this attacks a Thunderous Headbutt at S8, Ap2, Damage d3. oh, and if he is slain, he can fight one more time, even if he fought already that phase. Since he's too expensive for gunline duty, I say pair him up with Straken or Yarrick to tank wounds. As long as he gets into combat, he will do some damage, and if he has somebody to help keep alive, he could break even on points.
Overall: semi-competitive

I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

24 base points is the same base as the command squad, and gets you 3 special weapons instead of 4, but also gets you 3 extra wounds. Incidental shooting at a SWS kills meaningless lasguns first. So a unit that kills two guardsmen takes half of a Command Squad and half of its firepower, but if it does 2 wounds to a SWS, you've lost almost nothing. If you run into units that put out massive firepower, SWS are still better, because they pay for one less special weapon, so you are down fewer points if the whole squad gets wiped. They don't have the offensive power of Command Squads, but they are cheaper and more durable, so that's fair. They seem to me a solid choice for fielding massed special weapons on foot. Veterans have a higher overhead (60 points as opposed to 24) so you can take 12 regular guardsmen with 6 4+ plasma guns for 90 points or you can take 10 Veterans with 3 3+ Plasma Guns for 81 points. It's close enough that if Veterans are competitive, SWS should be as well.

This is a minor issue, though, I think you've been spot on for most everything.

Biophysical wrote:
I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

24 base points is the same base as the command squad, and gets you 3 special weapons instead of 4, but also gets you 3 extra wounds. Incidental shooting at a SWS kills meaningless lasguns first. So a unit that kills two guardsmen takes half of a Command Squad and half of its firepower, but if it does 2 wounds to a SWS, you've lost almost nothing. If you run into units that put out massive firepower, SWS are still better, because they pay for one less special weapon, so you are down fewer points if the whole squad gets wiped. They don't have the offensive power of Command Squads, but they are cheaper and more durable, so that's fair. They seem to me a solid choice for fielding massed special weapons on foot. Veterans have a higher overhead (60 points as opposed to 24) so you can take 12 regular guardsmen with 6 4+ plasma guns for 90 points or you can take 10 Veterans with 3 3+ Plasma Guns for 81 points. It's close enough that if Veterans are competitive, SWS should be as well.

This is a minor issue, though, I think you've been spot on for most everything.

Your analysis works out reasonably well, but there are two problems. The first is that veterans aren't usually bought just for the special, for 20 points more you can tack on a BS3+ lascannon, which is utterly worth the points. The second is that the only real way a SWS won't be wiped out is if it's at or near maximum range, which means it's shooting three plasma shots at a 4+. That's not nothing, but I think that it really isn't massed fire. And yes, you can take more, but I'd be worried about multi-charges or split fire.

A SWS pays 15pts for a close range plasma hit, while a veteran squad pays 22, so the SWS is more efficient. But... a command squad only pays 9.8 points per BS3+ hit. Arguing for the SWS means arguing that you need a squad slightly more durable than a command squad, but less durable than a veteran squad. That's doable, but I think that the vets being able to take a lascannon (and thus making it a really good target for Take Aim!) tips the scales.

If your aim is to maximize the sheer number of plasma shots... I guess that works. I can add that to the write up.

I really like this thread.
I totally agree with the last comment : SWS is at least as strong as the Command squad. And both should be rated Competitive.

You are mistaken about Straken buff when you say : ''It says that models within 6”, not units within 6” ''.
Its rule says : all friendly models in units within 6''

Biophysical wrote:
I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

24 base points is the same base as the command squad, and gets you 3 special weapons instead of 4, but also gets you 3 extra wounds. Incidental shooting at a SWS kills meaningless lasguns first. So a unit that kills two guardsmen takes half of a Command Squad and half of its firepower, but if it does 2 wounds to a SWS, you've lost almost nothing. If you run into units that put out massive firepower, SWS are still better, because they pay for one less special weapon, so you are down fewer points if the whole squad gets wiped. They don't have the offensive power of Command Squads, but they are cheaper and more durable, so that's fair. They seem to me a solid choice for fielding massed special weapons on foot. Veterans have a higher overhead (60 points as opposed to 24) so you can take 12 regular guardsmen with 6 4+ plasma guns for 90 points or you can take 10 Veterans with 3 3+ Plasma Guns for 81 points. It's close enough that if Veterans are competitive, SWS should be as well.

This is a minor issue, though, I think you've been spot on for most everything.

I disagree strongly on two points
1) BS 3+ vs BS4+
2) The durability difference between 6 models and 4 models is really not that much.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
IYou are mistaken about Straken buff when you say : ''It says that models within 6”, not units within 6” ''.
Its rule says : all friendly models in units within 6''

I could certainly be wrong, but every other aura buff simply states that it effects units within 6", while Straken's goes out of it 's way to say "All models in friendly CATACHAN units within 6" of Colonel..."

A plain reading can go either way, meaning either "all of the models within the units within 6"" or "all models within 6", that are part of friendly catachan units.."

The reason I read it narrowly is because all other buffs are written as applying directly to units, not to models. I hope I'm wrong, but from my standpoint, they wouldn't involve the term models unless the buff was model by model.

This might be a good question for YMDC.

 Polonius wrote:

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
IYou are mistaken about Straken buff when you say : ''It says that models within 6”, not units within 6” ''.
Its rule says : all friendly models in units within 6''

I could certainly be wrong, but every other aura buff simply states that it effects units within 6", while Straken's goes out of it 's way to say "All models in friendly CATACHAN units within 6" of Colonel..."

A plain reading can go either way, meaning either "all of the models within the units within 6"" or "all models within 6", that are part of friendly catachan units.."

The reason I read it narrowly is because all other buffs are written as applying directly to units, not to models. I hope I'm wrong, but from my standpoint, they wouldn't involve the term models unless the buff was model by model.

This might be a good question for YMDC.

Perhaps it says 'models' because the intention is that each model in the unit gets to make an extra attack (so 10 normal guardsmen would make 20 attacks). If it just said that the unit could make an additional attack, then it would read as the entire unit getting just a single extra attack (so 10 normal guardsmen would make 11 attacks).

Biophysical wrote:I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

RenegadeKorps wrote:I really like this thread.
I totally agree with the last comment : SWS is at least as strong as the Command squad. And both should be rated Competitive.

Okay, thinking about this, I think they have a lot of synergy with Harker, and so I added the following paragraph:

However, SWS is also the must purely cost effective ways to load up on special weapons. While I think most players will run out of plasma, and will put them on other platforms, the SWS does allow you to swamp the board with dirt cheap base units with cheap plasma guns. 45pts gets you six men with three plasma guns, which is a unit that you can afford to lose to dedicated shooting, but can shrug off one or two random wounds comfortably. Consider mixing this type of MSU with a general purpose aura, particularly Harker, so you can overcharge with little risk.

 vipoid wrote:


Perhaps it says 'models' because the intention is that each model in the unit gets to make an extra attack (so 10 normal guardsmen would make 20 attacks). If it just said that the unit could make an additional attack, then it would read as the entire unit getting just a single extra attack (so 10 normal guardsmen would make 11 attacks).

Exactly. While it makes sense to say that ''units re-roll to hit'' (for example), it doesn't make sense to say that ''units have +1 attack''.
See also the Ministorum priest. Same wording. The vast majority of players (if not everyone) understands the priest rule as affecting each model in the unit.
If it was about models, there would be no need to talk about ''units'', just like in the VGS rule for example.

Huh, the Straken rule is written the same as the Priest, so I guess that's not inconsistent. I'll change that.

Will analysis of forgeworld units be put up on here at some point as well.

As for the SWS/Command Squad matter, I would put sniper rifles with a command Squad, only to get adventage of the better BS, the distance negating the lower model count of the unit.

Really, for the same point value I can get more powerful, precice shots in a smaller pacakage that might even get a cover save, just that it's also made of wet cardboard.

Still, I might end up putting most type of weapons in a Command Squad only due to the BS, maybe adding a vox to help the near-by officer. The SWS seems only good now for 'suicide'/counter charge flamer teams, as BS means nothing, and being assault weapons, you can always advance and fire without fearing any -1 penalty.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
As for the SWS/Command Squad matter, I would put sniper rifles with a command Squad, only to get adventage of the better BS, the distance negating the lower model count of the unit.

Why not use Ratlings though?

Nice read, can't wait for the next installment .

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Great topic Polonius, I very much appreciate the effort you put in it. I wish it will develop as the "official" 8th edition Astra Militarum discussion thread. On my side I will try to put as many meaningful contributions as I can.



Here are some simple probability results (mean number of damage) that I already put in the other 8th edition thread. It is now more complete with the addition of hot-shot volley gun. I think it has its place here to give some perspective about tempestus scions load-out and what you can expect from one of these powerful squads.


Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons. Give the sergeant a plasma pistol (in order to have him being simply useful, the hot-shot pistol is a total garbage). I count the damage done on the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, while they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot laser guns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.



vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.926
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926


vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778


vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.407
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630


vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519


vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.315
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537

vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 1.000
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556


Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with hot-shot volley guns : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667


Houston, we've got a problem !

Plasma guns are so much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Hot-shot volley guns are not that bad, they are on par with grenade launchers sometimes, and on some occasions clearly ahead.
Still, they do not justify their high price compared to plasma guns even on standard mode.
Plasma guns on overcharged mode with rerolls consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
Overall at current prices, I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control (which I will look at later).
Don't forget to sprinkle your army list with tempestor primes for these crucial rerolls of .

they really screwed up on plasma and imho they need to nerf plasma gun/pistols to str6 and str7 overcharged.(plasma cannons should stay str 7/str8, since they are much better balanced). Str 8 is the amount for heavy anti vehicles whereas str 6/7 is for light vehicles and monstrous creatures range. Str6 places the plasmagun on par w grenade launchers but rapid fire instead of frag option. Str 7 means it doesn't outclass melta in dealing with toughness 7/8 targets where melta shine.

Other than that increase all scions by 1ppm and he codex is really well balanced.

Hey Polonius, good work so far, nice to see a tactica tread that is accumulating a tactica. Can you redeem the mistake of other 8th army tactica threads and copy paste your sections into the OP, with any amendments for feedback received. It would be nice to evolve this into a self compiling article.

 vipoid wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
As for the SWS/Command Squad matter, I would put sniper rifles with a command Squad, only to get adventage of the better BS, the distance negating the lower model count of the unit.

Why not use Ratlings though?

It falls down to point value and utility; Ratlings cost the same as a Command Squad with sniper rifles and a vox, which with an officer really help his order range. Also, Ratlings are the specialized snipers of the Guard; you want a sniper unit get a pack of 5 Ratlings. This was more axed toward the SWS vs CmdSq discussion.

I'm wondering if we'll be seeing many full mechvet lists any more. Using PL (my group has shed the shackles of cost of ppm lol) a single vet squad runs you as much as either two infantry squads or an infantry plus another commander. While its still hard to argue at a melts/shotgun squad diving out of a chimera, whats peoples analysis on the other typical vet build of plasmas vs the equivalent two infantry squads? Do you go more boys or more toys?

 doc1234 wrote:
I'm wondering if we'll be seeing many full mechvet lists any more. Using PL (my group has shed the shackles of cost of ppm lol) a single vet squad runs you as much as either two infantry squads or an infantry plus another commander. While its still hard to argue at a melts/shotgun squad diving out of a chimera, whats peoples analysis on the other typical vet build of plasmas vs the equivalent two infantry squads? Do you go more boys or more toys?

Well, first off, I have a hard time justifying chimeras anymore. They seem insanely expensive given the loss of fire-points and poor weapons.

Transports aside, I think it's important to note that Veterans are now elites. And, since I think Battalions or Brigades are the way to go, the decision for me is between Infantry Squads and Scion Squads. Veterans, meanwhile, are competing with Scion Command Squads (and, IMO, don't compare favourably).

If Veterans were still troops, I think it would be a more interesting comparison with Infantry Squads. As it is though, they now feel out of place in my lists.

 Polonius wrote:

Biophysical wrote:I think Special Weapon Squads have more going for them than you consider. If you're looking to spam special weapons, they're a combination of cost and durability that isn't in other options.

RenegadeKorps wrote:I really like this thread.
I totally agree with the last comment : SWS is at least as strong as the Command squad. And both should be rated Competitive.

Okay, thinking about this, I think they have a lot of synergy with Harker, and so I added the following paragraph:

However, SWS is also the must purely cost effective ways to load up on special weapons. While I think most players will run out of plasma, and will put them on other platforms, the SWS does allow you to swamp the board with dirt cheap base units with cheap plasma guns. 45pts gets you six men with three plasma guns, which is a unit that you can afford to lose to dedicated shooting, but can shrug off one or two random wounds comfortably. Consider mixing this type of MSU with a general purpose aura, particularly Harker, so you can overcharge with little risk.

Yeah, I had Harker in mind when I was thinking about SWS, and probably should have mentioned him. It's the "I want lots of plasma guns, but I want to make the other player work a little bit to kill them" option.

 doc1234 wrote:


Well, first off, I have a hard time justifying chimeras anymore. They seem insanely expensive given the loss of fire-points and poor weapons.

Transports aside, I think it's important to note that Veterans are now elites. And, since I think Battalions or Brigades are the way to go, the decision for me is between Infantry Squads and Scion Squads. Veterans, meanwhile, are competing with Scion Command Squads (and, IMO, don't compare favourably).

If Veterans were still troops, I think it would be a more interesting comparison with Infantry Squads. As it is though, they now feel out of place in my lists.

I've been running a 2x HF one with a Plasma CCS and commander inside to good effect at 1000 and 1500 points. At 2k, I'll probably run 2x plasma CCS inside. The 2x HF makes for a really nasty overwatch and you can sometimes force an overwatch on units attempting to charge the disembarked CCS depending on terrain/positioning.

I wouldn't run two though. My second Chimera is probably going to be made into a Salamander command vehicle when/if I ever end up buying a Baneblade.

I think you quoted the wrong person.

Anyway, with regard to Chimeras, I'm wary of taking 2 HFs because they have a range of just 8", and the Chimera can't fire if anything charges it.

Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

tl;dr Imperial guard took it up in the @ss


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bluthusten wrote:
Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

I hope you have something to reroll all those dices. 4d6 seems nice on paper, but once you roll them there isn't much at all. Better use 4 bullgryns or 3 bullgryns and a priest in a valk.

By the way, you might need to reconsider the rating of Command Squads after the FAQ:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/02/warhammer-40000-faq-now-available-july2gw-homepage-post-1/

Particularly this:

Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged army can include a maximum of one <Regiment> Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each <Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly, if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged army can include a maximum of one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.

thanks for the feedback! I'll be going on vacation this week, so don't expect troops until the 11th or so, unless I get really motivated in the next few days.

Cyrixiinus wrote:Will analysis of forgeworld units be put up on here at some point as well.

oooff... I suppose, if there is a demand. A quick glance at the FW index makes it look like a hot mess, and there's a ton of stuff packed into the Krieg and Elysian lists. I suppose I will do my best though.

Orlanth wrote:Hey Polonius, good work so far, nice to see a tactica tread that is accumulating a tactica. Can you redeem the mistake of other 8th army tactica threads and copy paste your sections into the OP, with any amendments for feedback received. It would be nice to evolve this into a self compiling article.

I will up to the character limit. so far, everything is posted to the OP. I may have to resort to links if it gets too big though.

vipoid wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:
I'm wondering if we'll be seeing many full mechvet lists any more. Using PL (my group has shed the shackles of cost of ppm lol) a single vet squad runs you as much as either two infantry squads or an infantry plus another commander. While its still hard to argue at a melts/shotgun squad diving out of a chimera, whats peoples analysis on the other typical vet build of plasmas vs the equivalent two infantry squads? Do you go more boys or more toys?

Well, first off, I have a hard time justifying chimeras anymore. They seem insanely expensive given the loss of fire-points and poor weapons.

Transports aside, I think it's important to note that Veterans are now elites. And, since I think Battalions or Brigades are the way to go, the decision for me is between Infantry Squads and Scion Squads. Veterans, meanwhile, are competing with Scion Command Squads (and, IMO, don't compare favourably).

If Veterans were still troops, I think it would be a more interesting comparison with Infantry Squads. As it is though, they now feel out of place in my lists.

vipoid wrote:I think you quoted the wrong person.

Anyway, with regard to Chimeras, I'm wary of taking 2 HFs because they have a range of just 8", and the Chimera can't fire if anything charges it.

I think Chimeras are a very clear side dish now. In the past, you could build a pretty decent list around what the Chimera offered: upper mid level durability, lower mid level firepower, fire points, and the ability to dish out orders from inside. Now, the Chimera offers really only one thing: the ability to transport 12 models with decent durability. OTOH, it's actually a better fit now for aggressive maneuvers, but it's also substantially more expensive than in the past. Double heavy flamer requires getting close, but anything you're transporting also wants to get close, and losing a Multi-laster and heavy bolter isn't that big of a deal. Don't think of the heavy flamers as 17pts a piece, but as 9pt upgrades from the mandatory heavy bolter!

Bluthusten wrote:Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

I think that's a 400 point package, and while I think it will mulch a squad when it hits, it damn well should. To give you some comparison, for ~660 points, you can take ten sternguard, with a fist and two heavy flamers, a dreadnought with assault cannon, CCW, and heavy flamer; and a Stormraven with hurrican bolters, twin lasannons, and twin multi-meltas. Yes, that's 60% more points, but it's way more durable, better in HtH, and has far more anti-tank.

yes, you built one of the best airmobile shock squads available to the IG, but it's still not a great buy. I think it would be a ton of fun though!





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, you might need to reconsider the rating of Command Squads after the FAQ:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/02/warhammer-40000-faq-now-available-july2gw-homepage-post-1/

Particularly this:

Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged army can include a maximum of one <Regiment> Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each <Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly, if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged army can include a maximum of one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.

I already did! I also cleared up the language about giving orders to Ogryn.

I think that command squads are still very good, but you obviously can't build armies around them anymore, as they pay a pretty nasty tax. Part of me is impishly tempted to combine a vanguard and supreme command detachment, and spam the command squads, using platoon commanders with power ax and plasma pistol to unlock them. That gives you mob of models with plasma pistols and three attack, WS3+ power axes. It's probably dumb, but it'd be fun!

 Polonius wrote:
.

Bluthusten wrote:Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

I think that's a 400 point package, and while I think it will mulch a squad when it hits, it damn well should. To give you some comparison, for ~660 points, you can take ten sternguard, with a fist and two heavy flamers, a dreadnought with assault cannon, CCW, and heavy flamer; and a Stormraven with hurrican bolters, twin lasannons, and twin multi-meltas. Yes, that's 60% more points, but it's way more durable, better in HtH, and has far more anti-tank.

yes, you built one of the best airmobile shock squads available to the IG, but it's still not a great buy. I think it would be a ton of fun though!

I though about Silvester Stallone and his crew from The Expendables

Do Platoon Commanders unlock Command squads as well or just the senior officer (Company Commander)?

 davidgr33n wrote:
Do Platoon Commanders unlock Command squads as well or just the senior officer (Company Commander)?

Platoon commanders have the officer keyword, so they should be able to get a command squad.

Cant wait until all sections are complete - like you did in 5th edition and put it in the army guides section like you did in 5th

it pains me to say this and i know we havent come to it yet but i get a feeling that artillery will be superior this edition to tanks i.e. LRBT and its variants

The wyvern remains a beast! Average 14 attacks (so circa 7 hits with IG at the trigger) is nasty enough at strength 4, but you also get to re-roll wounds. It's gonna murdify light infantry. Heavy infantry... you'd have to get lucky on the dice, but forcing seven checks on terminators is going to cause a few failed armor saves.

But the Basilisk isn't looking too shabby either. 2d6-drop-the-lowest means an average of (slightly better than) 4 attacks, which should average out to 2 hits per shot (worse after you take some hits) of strength 9, AP -2, d3 wounds. Probably overkill for MEQ but not wasted on MCs and might be just what you need for Termies. However, I'm thinking it's overshadowed by the Manticore who ought to get more attacks every round. Someone will need to math-hammer how bad only getting 4 attacks per game is.

Putting master of ordanance next to these guys with 2-3 tech priests as you can easily fit 6 basilisks in 2000 points .... ouch

Two small corrections I would like to add: The Astropath with laspistol is 15 points, not 12, and you forgot to mention that Creed also gets carapace armour for a 4+ save, which makes him quite a bit more durable particularly against snipers compared to regular commanders.

Great guide, can't wait for your take on the other choices ;-)!

 sumi808 wrote:
Cant wait until all sections are complete - like you did in 5th edition and put it in the army guides section like you did in 5th

it pains me to say this and i know we havent come to it yet but i get a feeling that artillery will be superior this edition to tanks i.e. LRBT and its variants

The wyvern remains a beast! Average 14 attacks (so circa 7 hits with IG at the trigger) is nasty enough at strength 4, but you also get to re-roll wounds. It's gonna murdify light infantry. Heavy infantry... you'd have to get lucky on the dice, but forcing seven checks on terminators is going to cause a few failed armor saves.

But the Basilisk isn't looking too shabby either. 2d6-drop-the-lowest means an average of (slightly better than) 4 attacks, which should average out to 2 hits per shot (worse after you take some hits) of strength 9, AP -2, d3 wounds. Probably overkill for MEQ but not wasted on MCs and might be just what you need for Termies. However, I'm thinking it's overshadowed by the Manticore who ought to get more attacks every round. Someone will need to math-hammer how bad only getting 4 attacks per game is.

Putting master of ordanance next to these guys with 2-3 tech priests as you can easily fit 6 basilisks in 2000 points .... ouch

Artillery is superior to tanks in this edition. In my 2000 point list, I am using three Wyverns, two Manticores, and Pask in a Punisher with a lascannon and sponson heavy bolters. I am usually tabling opponents by the end of turn four. I still need to test it versus Nids and Ork hordes, but it murders all of the small elite armies regardless of how fast they move.

I won't be getting to Heavy support for a while, but my review of the tank commander pretty heavily foreshadowed my thoughts on the LRBT... overpriced, undergunned, and shockingly fragile. to be fair, we are spoilt for choice, but our poor Russes are Shermans that pay Panther prices.

 Polonius wrote:
I won't be getting to Heavy support for a while, but my review of the tank commander pretty heavily foreshadowed my thoughts on the LRBT... overpriced, undergunned, and shockingly fragile. to be fair, we are spoilt for choice, but our poor Russes are Shermans that pay Panther prices.

QFT

Its sad that of all leman russ variants there are only 3 that are not meh: punisher, demolishet and vanilla lrbt.

I would run pask in a punisher with lascannon and multi melta and with 2 demolishers as squad mates. One with 3 heavy flamers abd the other with 2 plasma cannons who can reroll ones thanks to pask. Any other tank would be artillery i.e. wyvern etc

If your going to take tanks in 8th edition might as well assault with them..it you want to sit back and shoot artillery is cheaper and better

But i get way ahead of myself ... looking forward to the nrxt installment man, i know youll do an awesome job on this like you did in 5th edition. I hope you can compose an article and get it stickied like last time

Have a good holiday in the meantime

Troops
This section got a shakeup, with Veterans leaving for Elites, the Platoon being broken up, and Scions joining the main list as a troop. All of them are pretty solid, leaving them all as fine choices for list building, and even better, they can all be mixed!

Infantry Squad
 The ground pounders, the dogfaces, the poor bloody infantry… the basic Infantry Squad is now freed from its fetters of platoon structure, and can be purchased ala carte.  The biggest change by far is the loss of combined squads, a much loved rule for nearly a decade.  Now, each squad must stand on its own.  Other than that, it’s basically the same.  You can buy a special, a heavy, and a power weapon (but not fist) and/or a plasma pistol for the sergeant.  You can also buy a vox caster, and now is probably a good a time as any to discuss this rule.  Basically, if an officer is within 3” of a unit with voxcaster (not the model itself), the officer can give an order to a unit within 18” (of the officer) as long as that squad also has a vox caster.  Keep in mind that voxes are 5pts each, and a platoon commander is only 20pts.  I don’t have a really problem with voxes, but I don’t think orders are good enough to try to extend the range a bit.  If you plan on having one or two solo squads, then go nuts, but I think that I’d rather simply have more officers than a vox network.  Only command squads, infantry squads, veterans can even take them, which I think reduces their efficacy somewhat. 
 
Anyway, the basic infantry squad does what it did in 3rd and 4th edition: it provides decent firepower at a low price.  How low?  Actually really low.  After dropping a point per model, the basic infantry can now be fielded with flamer and heavy bolter for only 55pts, or las/plas for 67pts.  That’s, uh, real cheap.  With six ablative wounds before losing a critical model, this is a lascannon that will stick around from all but focused fire.
 
The consensus early on is that the infantry squad is a distant third to the hard hitting scions and the uber efficient conscripts, but I think that there is room for cheap, decent firepower.  I wouldn’t include anything other than flamers, plasma, heavy bolters, or lascannons, as the other specials are either too weak or really want to be fielded in numbers, and the other heavy weapons simply don’t do much.  I think that you can make a case for only fielding conscripts, heavy weapon squads, and scions, but I also think that having squads with some pop is a good thing.  The choice is really up to you!
Overall: competitive
 
Conscripts 
I almost don’t want to write this, because the internet is aflame with conscripts being OP, but I think the target audience for this treatise is probably a player that doesn’t already know the internet consensus.  To be blunt, conscripts are ineffective warriors that can be taken in huge squads to take advantage of force multipliers.  What that means is that while they only shoot lasguns (and are only ever armed with lasguns) on a 5+, the unit of 50 can received FRF!SRF!, which doubles the whole squads firepower, for between 50 and 100 more shots.  At the goofy extreme, 100 more shots is 33 more hits, 11 more wounds on T3, and nearly four more dead space marines.  All from a unit that cost 150pts plus a 20pts platoon commander!  Okay, so just start shooting them, and watch them melt to morale.  Add a 31pt commissar, so you only lose one more a turn due to morale.  Okay, so just charge them and tie them up in combat.  Well, the officer can order them to fight an extra time, or fall back and shoot.  If they want to fight, a 35pts priest gives them all an extra attack for both rounds of swinging.  Even thirty conscripts swinging twice with a priest put out 120 attacks.  Okay, you say, but now you’re pouring 86 points of upgrades into a 150pt unit, so it’s not all that efficient!  Well… bump the platoon commander to a company commander, and with clever positioning you can do this for two 50 man blobs.  396pts buys you over 100 wounds, and the ability to put out 400 shots a turn.

In practice, this won’t be fun, and you’ll quickly run out of time if you include too many of the bastards.  Given that these are not permanent codexes, I wouldn’t start building 300 conscripts to spam them.  Still, even a smaller package of a 50 man unit, a commissar, and a platoon commander is just a hair over 200 points, which is roughly the same as a lot of other armies 10 men squads.  One of the reasons that people like conscripts over infantry squads is that they can provide the same “bubble wrap” of physically taking up space to protect high value assets like artillery or tanks from deep strikers or assault units. 

8th edition is very good to conscripts, who can now bunch together nice and tight without worrying about blasts, and also will get their 5+ save from most small arms. Even if you add a unit to your army just for fun, it’ll be a good unit that will soak a lot of firepower while sending out a lot of lasgun love.
Overall: highly competitive
 
Militarum Tempestus Scions 
I love this unit.  Stormtroopers have ranged between bad and “niche” for four five straight editions, and now, they finally got them right.  Everything about them in the context of 8th edition works, and outside of being criminally undercosted (and, I suppose the sins of plasma more generally), they are a wonderful example of fluff meeting crunch in game design.  Scions start as veterans, gaining BS3+, but also gain a 4+ save, and trade the plebian lasgun for the regrettably named hot shot lasgun.  This marvel of technology (which is incredibly difficult to maintain in the field, hence its rarity) has AP-2.  On a basic weapon.  This means that light infantry get no save, while space marines in cover only get a 4+.  It’s still only S3, but here’s the other kicker: it gets doubled with FRF!SRF!  On the downside, it’s only range 18”, meaning it can’t double tap outside of 9” 

Speaking of being within 9”, Scions have the ability to Aerial Drop, which is their version of the new deep strike: at the end of any movement phase, they can deploy anywhere more than 9” from enemy units.  If you’re thinking this allows them to land and light up targets of priority, then welcome aboard!  As hinted at above, the 9” range means no flamers, no Hotshot double tap, no double dice for meltas.  That pretty much leaves plasma, the volley gun, and melta guns base.  The clear generalist winner is the plasma gun.  When overcharged, a plasma gun does more damage than a long range melta (but less than when in half range), and can also shoot normally.  With Damage 2, overcharged plasma is ideal for multiwound units.  You won’t go wrong spamming them, and only them.  Volley guns, unfortunately, have a longer range but are heavy, meaning they are less effective for drop troops.  Long range meltas are still pretty effective, especially when mixed with plasma, as many opponents will wipe out the plasma squads first. 

The cool thing about scions in 8th is that they can take four specials if 10 men, which I recommend.  4+ save troopers are now a lot more durable, and with the ability to freely drop into cover, they are really hard to shift with shooting.  Even in assault, they can always fall back and use “get back in the fight!” to shoot again.  Now, be careful about armies with large, dedicated assault units that can multicharge and wipe out multiple scion squads… especially since commissars can’t drop with them.  (Note: check FW for elysian commissars).  OTOH… if there’s a big assault squad, shoot it first!  Or, if in a transport, that’s a squad that not crashing into your main gunline.  One of the ridiculous thing about scions is how stupidly cheap they are.  A mere 124 points buys you 10 men with four plasma guns.  Sure, you’ll want a Tempestor Prime, but buying two squads and a prime gets you an awful lot of firepower for under 300 points. 
 
Overall: Highly Competitive.

Dedicated Transports
The last time I wrote one of these, this section was a single model, but we are now blessed with three different transports, all of which fit very slightly different niches. One of the biggest mistakes a player in 8th edition could make is to try to run these models, especially the Chimera, the same way they did from 3rd-7th editions. The game has changed around these models, and GW did not really adjust their points to reflect those changes. That said, we have some pretty nice options for battle taxis now, while the days of static pillboxes are long behind us.

Chimera
To understand what's wrong, and more importantly what's right, about the current Chimera, you need to understand a bit about it's past. It was famous for having a surprisingly durable front armor, with weak and long flanks, as well as the ability to allow squads inside to shoot out. It also had a rather nifty rule that allowed an embarked officer to give orders to squads not embarked in a transport. Because of this, squads in chimeras tended to stay embarked, until they disgorged to fire at full effect, while command squads (RIP) stayed embarked as long as possible to dish out orders while staying relatively safe. Now, no models can fire from inside, officers aren't bundled with command squads, and an officer can how be quite safe hiding behind an infantry squad, making orders much more flexible and available. Also, for much of it's life, the multilaser was a yeoman's weapon, doing some work while being cheap.

In the modern world, none of that is true. Much has been said about how vehicles are supposed to be more durable now, and while questionable for things like the LRBT, the basic Chimera is now a tough little bastard, even at close range or in assault. It has one less toughness and two fewer wounds than an LRBT, making only slightly less vulnerable to dedicated anti-tank weapons. With T7 and a 3+ save, it can now shrug a lot of the mid strength fire power that used to eat it up (hell, assault cannons used to regularly one shot chimeras from the side with hot rolls, something that is now mathematically impossible. So, don't try to bunker down with them, get in the mix!
Adding to this is the loss of firepower. The Multi-laser is probably the worst heavy weapon in the IG arsenal. It is objectively worse than even the heavy bolter against anything but painfully specific targets (T5/6 models with poor or invulnerable saves), and yet is somehow two points more. The multilaser is only available on three platforms, all of whom seem overcosted. They could have made the gun 5pts, and it would have been fine! That leaves two choices for weapons: heavy bolters, or heavy flamers. Bolters are cheaper, and dual loaded with them a chimera can tun you only 91pts, which for the record is just about 19 points more than Rhino. (for which, you get the same mobility and durability, better but less accurate shooting, room for two more models, and, oddly, a slightly more generous degradation chart) I compare these two models because the double HB Chimera is basically our Rhino, except it can move a full squad plus a support character or two. The other option is double heavy flamer, which while scarier, is admittedly shorter range. However... the chimera can move 10", and shot 8" more. That's a decent threat range, and as discussed, this is a model that wants to move. Four turns of moving and firing double heavy bolters yields 8 S5, AP1 hits, which is only one more than a double heavy flamer Chimera that shoots one time! It's admittedly spendier, breaking the triple digit mark at 109pts, but it's firepower moves from incidental to significant.

One of the biggest mental hurdles for players of prior editions (myself included) is to look at that, and lament how much a half dozen would cost. That ignores the fact that you shouldn't be using that many. Chimeras aren't the only way to move squads, we have excellent deep strikers and the Move!Move!Move! order, as well as genuinely good indirect fire artillery. The Chimera should focus on doing what those choices cannot, which is delivering either meltas or flamers to their target, preferably with a bit of close combat punch. Don't forget, you can put two characters in there, which can include an astropath for cheap fortify/smite. Avoid the multilaser, use them sparingly, and they'll do right for you, but if they're not moving, you're spending a lot of points on harder to kill heavy weapon squad.
Finally, the chimera can, and should, be charging. A good tactic is to send the chimera in first to soak the overwatch, allowing your more fragile gaurdsmen to charge in unmolested. You can also charge while fully loaded, to gain extra movement. you can disembark while engaged, as long as the squad has room, so don't charge ork mobs or anything big, but charging an enemy transport to block it could be fun. Also, you can charge light static shooting squads, either while full or empty.
Overall: Competitive

Taurox
The poor Taurox, which nobody wanted, made it clear that the IG were never going to get the model they really wanted: a cheap, no frills, transport. Think Ork Trukk. It's been on nearly every IG players wishlist for over a decade, and instead, we got the Taurox, which suffers from a nasty case of Skornergy. It's a quick, relatively light transport, which comes bundled with two long range, surprisingly expensive heavy weapons. It's statline says it wants to move fast and close in, but it's weapons want to flank and fire. It's also not cheap, running only six points less than the double HB chimera, while losing a point of toughness and two transport slots. It also, somewhat oddly, does not have smoke launchers!

I wish there was some hidden power to this poor guy. It's staggering that when every other model got a price break from a twinlinked weapon to twin weapons, the taurox instead got two autocannons at full retail. Even the exterminator gets it's lousy cannon at a discount. Not only are autocannons long range and heavy, they're not that great. They're also readily available on plenty of platforms, making this a model that wants to move, but then loses it's ability to actually use it's pricey firepower. I'm not sold on it's firepower, so in the end, it's a few points cheaper for a hit to durability, and I like the option to add characters.
Overall: Semi-competitive

Taurox Prime
Only five more points bumps you up to BS3+ and a more interesting array of weapons choices. The drawback is that it can only carry Militarum Tempestus or Officio Prefectus models, but since Scions are stupid good, I'm not too worried about the loss. The Prime can take the autocannons, or it can take two hot shot volley guns, and perfectly fine weapon that's otherwise only available to scions. They don't like it because it's a heavy weapon on a squad that is almost always moving, and competes with the plasma gun. Here, it's half the cost of the Autocannon for four shots at S4 and AP2, giving it a great range of ideal targets. It also must take a turret weapon, which is a mixed bag as well. The Taurox missile Launcher is literally a twin missile Launcher, but instead of a discount, pays a 10 point premium over two missile tubes on their own. The Taurox Battle Cannon loses a point of Strength and AP off the original, while costing more (on an admittedly cheaper hull). The Gatling gun, however, is a mere 18 points for 20 bolter shots. By process of elimination, that leaves a Prime with double hotshots and the Gatling gun for 96 points, or less than a double heavy flamer chimera. This is a legitimately decent unit in terms of firepower, and if you could put basic infantry in them, it'd be the only transport I used. The Prime is good enough, and Scions are cheap enough, that a full scion squad with flamers in one of these is a nice package that can tear up light to medium infantry. It's a lot more fragile than a tank, but it hits hard and accurately, and can work either as a transport or as a light fire support vehicle.
Overall: Competitive.

excellent write ups! looking forward to Heavy Support, you should totally skip ahead

Great write up - troops are the heart of the army!

I forgot that we had to pay for hotshot lasguns! I don't know why they weren't costed as zero, seeing as how they can't be taken as upgrades.

Finally, the chimera can, and should, be charging. A good tactic is to send the chimera in first to soak the overwatch, allowing your more fragile gaurdsmen to charge in unmolested

What do you mean? The rules say a target unit can fire overwatch once for each unit that charges it?

 argonak wrote:

Finally, the chimera can, and should, be charging. A good tactic is to send the chimera in first to soak the overwatch, allowing your more fragile gaurdsmen to charge in unmolested

What do you mean? The rules say a target unit can fire overwatch once for each unit that charges it?

Not if it's already in combat.

 vipoid wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Finally, the chimera can, and should, be charging. A good tactic is to send the chimera in first to soak the overwatch, allowing your more fragile gaurdsmen to charge in unmolested

What do you mean? The rules say a target unit can fire overwatch once for each unit that charges it?

Not if it's already in combat.

Oh I see. We were playing that all charges were declared first, then you did all the moves. Oops. Only got two games in so far. Thanks for the correction.

Minor additions to the Infantry Squad entry to consider:

Sergeants can get Bolters for a point, which seems to me a great option if you don't buy the plasma pistol instead. Having 10 long arms in an infantry squad feels right for the Guard. Also, while Infantry Squads are not as efficient defensively as Conscripts, and they don't take orders as efficiently, they do have some advantages. If you're looking at the role of area control/bubble wrap, 4 almost naked (bolters for sgts) Infantry Squads is slightly more than 50 conscripts (164 pts vs 150 points). The Conscripts are defensively more efficient, and offensively more efficient when goven orders in ideal situations, but the Infantry Squads gain hugely in flexibility. You can use one squad to protect the others from assault, so only a fraction of your force has to withdraw, while the other squads are fighting at full strength.

I like your thinking, thats why im only taking 1 conscript squad and making the rest all normal squads.

Once commissars/priests get assassinated the conscripts are really weak, poor leadership etc... I think running 3-5 commanders and 3-5 commissars is the way to go for infantry hoard guard imho - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731549.page#9471943

Guardsmen benefit from having a Commissar around, but Conscripts absolutely -need- one.

Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

Are you doing forge world units also for the unit reviews?

Also, Taurox primes should really be upgraded to highly competitive if you use the gatling gun. It's actually kind of ridiculous how efficient they are. Even if they move, they make Wyverns look bad by comparison


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

Oh they're absolutely the best assault unit in the game right now. And the patriarch gives some good anti-psyker..it's actually brutal. I came from the other side of it where I said "well I think this is sacrilege but my genestealers need some fire support, hello AM"

I'm only fielding 1 conscript squad in a line across the battlefield to prevent deepstrike chargeing/ genesteelers

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm only fielding 1 conscript squad in a line across the battlefield to prevent deepstrike chargeing/ genesteelers

Yep that is 100% necessary now.

 Naix wrote:
I forgot that we had to pay for hotshot lasguns! I don't know why they weren't costed as zero, seeing as how they can't be taken as upgrades.

So when you equip Scions with melta or plasma you don't lose, as happened in the past, the points spent for the hot-shot.
This is a very nice thing from the designer's part.

Really well done write-up.
When this Astra Mil "primer" is done, a printed copy may go into the Index (for now).
Yeah, I kept using Scions for deep-strike assassins but they are even nastier now.

Yes, plasma is really looking good.
Luckily, I was building up all I could plasma around 7th so it will not be wasted.

Very good job.
Yes, wall of text.
But, I... read... every... word.

Oh, I have a question regarding Scions: do you think there's any value in running them as 5-man squads instead of 10-man squads?

 vipoid wrote:
Oh, I have a question regarding Scions: do you think there's any value in running them as 5-man squads instead of 10-man squads?

Opinion of a random: Well, it helps divide up enemy fire as well as help in preventing unwanted loses to failed morale tests. And it's great for going after objectives or stalling another unit if you tie them up in a charge (if you're really brave or desperate).

If your not playing kill points always MSU.

If your playing kill points I would still MSU because it gives you a greater density of special weapons but there is more of a tradeoff

U02dah4 wrote:
If your not playing kill points always MSU.

If your playing kill points I would still MSU because it gives you a greater density of special weapons but there is more of a tradeoff

With Scions you still get two special weapons per five models whether you take them in 2x5 man squads or 1x10. And since everything can split fire, there's really little incentive to split them up from your firing's point of view as well as your opponent's. If anything, they're actually more durable together, at least for the guys you care about.

You also get one more hotshot lasgun if you do 10 man, whereas you have one more sarge if you do two five man, so that should factor into the decision. Given that the sweet spot is 9", getting one more plasma shot from an extra pistol is nice, but so is the extra shots from that FRFSRFed hotshot.


And actually, until you posted that, causing me to play devil's advocate, I was thinking the MSU route was the way to go singularly. Now I have to reconsider.

1x10 also gives you better order economy. You can do 1 Prime per 20 Scions, as opposed to 1 Prime per 10 to keep complete order coverage.

And long as I'm tacking on extra justifications, you can deploy faster that way so you MIGHT not actually go second. Maybe. If you're real lucky.

 daedalus wrote:
With Scions you still get two special weapons per five models whether you take them in 2x5 man squads or 1x10. And since everything can split fire, there's really little incentive to split them up from your firing's point of view as well as your opponent's. If anything, they're actually more durable together, at least for the guys you care about.

I'm actually thinking the opposite - that smaller squads are better. They're more vulnerable in the sense that there are fewer normal dudes before your special weapons. At the same time, they're far less vulnerable to morale and also more easily overkilled (causing your opponent to waste firepower). What's more, whilst a large squad can split fire, it can't be in 2 places at once. I'd rather have 2 squads and have the option to split them up, should it prove advantageous.

 daedalus wrote:

You also get one more hotshot lasgun if you do 10 man, whereas you have one more sarge if you do two five man, so that should factor into the decision. Given that the sweet spot is 9", getting one more plasma shot from an extra pistol is nice, but so is the extra shots from that FRFSRFed hotshot.

Honestly, I much prefer the extra pistol shot, but each to his own.

 daedalus wrote:

1x10 also gives you better order economy. You can do 1 Prime per 20 Scions, as opposed to 1 Prime per 10 to keep complete order coverage.

Yeah, that is a good reason - especially with Primes being pretty costly (although each one you take gives you access to a valuable command squad, so there's that at least). At the same time, 5-man squads are probably going to be less reliant on orders in the first place.

 daedalus wrote:
And long as I'm tacking on extra justifications, you can deploy faster that way so you MIGHT not actually go second. Maybe. If you're real lucky.

I just accept that if I'm playing IG, I'm going second.

 vipoid wrote:

I'm actually thinking the opposite - that smaller squads are better. They're more vulnerable in the sense that there are fewer normal dudes before your special weapons. At the same time, they're far less vulnerable to morale and also more easily overkilled (causing your opponent to waste firepower). What's more, whilst a large squad can split fire, it can't be in 2 places at once. I'd rather have 2 squads and have the option to split them up, should it prove advantageous.

There's two concepts going on here: Overkill and Leadership. I want to address each one separately.

Overkill: Any other edition and I'd agree with you, but I think anyone who is bringing sufficient firepower to take out 10 guys is going to split fire into two squads. I guess it might save you a guy or two here and there, but I'd rather force my opponent to have to get through 5 guys before they start to remove my special weapons than just 2 guys. Your method has merit for stuff like the vulkan megabolter, which is one weapon that levels squads, and so I don't think it can be split fired, but those situations are somewhat of an edge case as most of the time it's a lot of models firing a lot of individual weapons at me. That might just be my meta though.

Leadership: Your way helps limit casualties, but my way lets me salvage all of whatever's left with command points. I tend to go infantry heavy, so I have a hard time not winding up with at least 12 CP, at the start and usually have some left at the end of the game. I can afford to drop a couple in order to keep a couple plasma guns stick around longer.

Honestly, I much prefer the extra pistol shot, but each to his own.

This I'm on the fence about. The plasma pistol brings a lot to the party, but I honestly am not sure yet if it's actually necessary in a unit with that much plasma already, particularly given how good the hot shot is already. Sounds like heresy, I know. I'm still bracing for plasma to get knee-jerked to be way more expensive or something, honestly. Like it was typoed and was supposed to be 17 points or something. It just feels too good to be true.

Yeah, that is a good reason - especially with Primes being pretty costly (although each one you take gives you access to a valuable command squad, so there's that at least). At the same time, 5-man squads are probably going to be less reliant on orders in the first place.

That's a valid point with the command squads, though I don't know if I like them that much. Don't get me wrong, they're amazing, and I know they're amazing. I just like having ablative wounds for my special weapons (as if that wasn't obvious enough from my attitude toward overkill).

I just accept that if I'm playing IG, I'm going second.

I hear you there. Really, I think I just need to get over it.

 daedalus wrote:

Overkill: Any other edition and I'd agree with you, but I think anyone who is bringing sufficient firepower to take out 10 guys is going to split fire into two squads. I guess it might save you a guy or two here and there, but I'd rather force my opponent to have to get through 5 guys before they start to remove my special weapons than just 2 guys. Your method has merit for stuff like the vulkan megabolter, which is one weapon that levels squads, and so I don't think it can be split fired, but those situations are somewhat of an edge case as most of the time it's a lot of models firing a lot of individual weapons at me. That might just be my meta though.

But if they've got the firepower to reliably take out 10 guys, then whether or not the squad is split is entirely irrelevant. Those men are dead either way.

However, in my experience, most players will hesitate to split fire between two squads like that - they usually prefer to kill one entirely rather than risking leaving both alive. And indeed, all it takes is for one load of shots to roll well and the other badly, and one squad will be left alive (whereas if they'd been together, the excess shots from the half that rolled well would have killed more).

 daedalus wrote:

Leadership: Your way helps limit casualties, but my way lets me salvage all of whatever's left with command points. I tend to go infantry heavy, so I have a hard time not winding up with at least 12 CP, at the start and usually have some left at the end of the game. I can afford to drop a couple in order to keep a couple plasma guns stick around longer.

The thing is though, I don't see my method as being any worse in this regard. If your 10-man squad has been reduced to just 2 plasmagunners, then the extra meat shields were irrelevant anyway.

 daedalus wrote:

This I'm on the fence about. The plasma pistol brings a lot to the party, but I honestly am not sure yet if it's actually necessary in a unit with that much plasma already, particularly given how good the hot shot is already. Sounds like heresy, I know. I'm still bracing for plasma to get knee-jerked to be way more expensive or something, honestly. Like it was typoed and was supposed to be 17 points or something. It just feels too good to be true.

I really hope not.

In any case, what I like most about the Plasma Pistol is its range. 6" on the Hot Shot Laspistol is just too short for me (though I appreciate this is irelevant in the comparison between squad sizes).

 daedalus wrote:

That's a valid point with the command squads, though I don't know if I like them that much. Don't get me wrong, they're amazing, and I know they're amazing. I just like having ablative wounds for my special weapons (as if that wasn't obvious enough from my attitude toward overkill).

Normally, I'd agree. However, I think what makes the Command Squad different is:
- Their low cost
- Their ability to land within rapid-fire range of an enemy and open up

This makes them completely disposable, whilst also all but guaranteeing that they'll get a free turn of shooting before anything can shoot them back. The point is, with the firepower they bring on the turn they come down, they can frequently make their points back in a single shooting phase. Frankly, if they survive after that then I'm happy to call it a bonus. Otherwise, they did their job.

 daedalus wrote:
I hear you there. Really, I think I just need to get over it.

It comes from playing Infantry Guard. Because characters count as separate drops (and I have no end of CCs and Commissars), I'll often have at least twice as many drops as my opponent - sometimes three times as many. I love guard.

 vipoid wrote:

But if they've got the firepower to reliably take out 10 guys, then whether or not the squad is split is entirely irrelevant. Those men are dead either way.

However, in my experience, most players will hesitate to split fire between two squads like that - they usually prefer to kill one entirely rather than risking leaving both alive. And indeed, all it takes is for one load of shots to roll well and the other badly, and one squad will be left alive (whereas if they'd been together, the excess shots from the half that rolled well would have killed more).

The reason why I think the way I do is (napkin math warning) 16 bolter shots, 2 plasma, and a... I dunno, a missile launcher, comes to about 5.3 average dead scions. You lose 1 sarge, 2 plasmaguns, 2 lasgunners. I lose 5 lasgunners and maybe a Sarge. I don't know if a Tac squad is even a reasonable unit to even expect out of a SM player anymore, as my group doesn't have a lot of them and the couple we do have are pretty unconventional, but that's leaves you all your plasma, and leaves the unit a credible enough threat to force the opponent to have to focus fire you dead.

My more common meta is GK, which means about 4.5 dead scions from a 5 man strike squad at 12". Then I laugh and remove the squad unless they dedicate at least two of their more expensive units killing my one cheaper unit. If I can keep that going, I've already won the game.

I don't disagree that you're insulated far better against the probability spikes than I am. I'm saying that they can't just casually off my guys without leaving a credible enough threat behind. Maybe it's just playstyle, but I feel like guard stuff is cheap enough that it's awesome if they have to focus fire a single squad dead, because I have plenty more where that came from.

The thing is though, I don't see my method as being any worse in this regard. If your 10-man squad has been reduced to just 2 plasmagunners, then the extra meat shields were irrelevant anyway.

But if it's reduced to 3 (or 4) plasmagunners, then I'm winning. I don't think your way is "worse". I'm not sure there's a right or wrong way to go here. I think it's playstyle and meta at this point more than anything.

In any case, what I like most about the Plasma Pistol is its range. 6" on the Hot Shot Laspistol is just too short for me (though I appreciate this is irelevant in the comparison between squad sizes).

Yeah, I think that the plasma pistol is probably still even better than even the FRFSRFed lasgun for the points. I'll certainly concede that the pistol makes your method wins out in this regard hands down.

Normally, I'd agree. However, I think what makes the Command Squad different is:
- Their low cost
- Their ability to land within rapid-fire range of an enemy and open up

This makes them completely disposable, whilst also all but guaranteeing that they'll get a free turn of shooting before anything can shoot them back. The point is, with the firepower they bring on the turn they come down, they can frequently make their points back in a single shooting phase. Frankly, if they survive after that then I'm happy to call it a bonus. Otherwise, they did their job.

Yeah. I might load one up with meltaguns so that I can make them useful and something that has to be killed without needing orders to keep them from doing themselves in. I just don't like the idea of spamming them, particularly post-faq. I don't think it's so cost effective now, and I don't need or want THAT many Primes.

It comes from playing Infantry Guard. Because characters count as separate drops (and I have no end of CCs and Commissars), I'll often have at least twice as many drops as my opponent - sometimes three times as many. I love guard.

Man, the support characters are really the killer, I think. And I normally run infantry squads and toss a priest in there too. Basically have to concede if it's a kill points game. So many babysitters.

 daedalus wrote:

The reason why I think the way I do is (napkin math warning) 16 bolter shots, 2 plasma, and a... I dunno, a missile launcher, comes to about 5.3 average dead scions. You lose 1 sarge, 2 plasmaguns, 2 lasgunners. I lose 5 lasgunners and maybe a Sarge. I don't know if a Tac squad is even a reasonable unit to even expect out of a SM player anymore, as my group doesn't have a lot of them and the couple we do have are pretty unconventional, but that's leaves you all your plasma, and leaves the unit a credible enough threat to force the opponent to have to focus fire you dead.

My more common meta is GK, which means about 4.5 dead scions from a 5 man strike squad at 12". Then I laugh and remove the squad unless they dedicate at least two of their more expensive units killing my one cheaper unit. If I can keep that going, I've already won the game.

I don't disagree that you're insulated far better against the probability spikes than I am. I'm saying that they can't just casually off my guys without leaving a credible enough threat behind. Maybe it's just playstyle, but I feel like guard stuff is cheap enough that it's awesome if they have to focus fire a single squad dead, because I have plenty more where that came from.

I do get where you're coming from. As you say, maybe we just favour different playstyles. I tend to favour minimum squad sizes wherever possible, as I've always been a fan of MSU-type armies.

 daedalus wrote:

But if it's reduced to 3 (or 4) plasmagunners, then I'm winning. I don't think your way is "worse". I'm not sure there's a right or wrong way to go here. I think it's playstyle and meta at this point more than anything.

Yeah, I'd agree. I think both types have their merits.

 daedalus wrote:

Yeah, I think that the plasma pistol is probably still even better than even the FRFSRFed lasgun for the points. I'll certainly concede that the pistol makes your method wins out in this regard hands down.

It also means there's a reason to keep the sergeant alive beyond his Ld.

 daedalus wrote:

Yeah. I might load one up with meltaguns so that I can make them useful and something that has to be killed without needing orders to keep them from doing themselves in. I just don't like the idea of spamming them, particularly post-faq. I don't think it's so cost effective now, and I don't need or want THAT many Primes.

I was actually going to use meltas in a MT list I made recently, but I found that the small difference in points was a real pain to find, so I went with plasma instead.

I agree that it's not as cost effective anymore, though if I'm making a MT list I'm probably going to have a few Primes around, so I might as well make use of their Command Squads when I have the option.

 daedalus wrote:

Man, the support characters are really the killer, I think. And I normally run infantry squads and toss a priest in there too. Basically have to concede if it's a kill points game. So many babysitters.

Yeah, Kill Points are a real pain. The best we can do, I think, is either try to table our opponents or else try to gradually pull back our characters as our front-line units are destroyed, so that they're not exposed.

Ultimately though, the biggest thing deciding my squad layouts from now on though is what combination of models I have laying around at home.

I use kasrkin and the hostile environment cadians as my Scions (they're stormtroopers, damnit!) so getting more models at this point is.. not cost effective.

 vipoid wrote:

Yeah, Kill Points are a real pain. The best we can do, I think, is either try to table our opponents or else try to gradually pull back our characters as our front-line units are destroyed, so that they're not exposed.

With my friends, I just laugh and say "you win, roll mission again." They don't care much for kill points either, I think, so it works out well enough.. It got funny last time because I "lost" two or three games in a row this way before we even put a miniature out on the table. We'll probably start going back to it eventually, but I haven't even played through all the mission types yet, let alone enough to start trying to optimize my list for the occasional kill points game.

I'm on vacation and don't have a keyboard, but I thought I'd check in on this thread. My view on squad size is that I want to use orders as much as possible, which means big squads, especially with plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biophysical wrote:Minor additions to the Infantry Squad entry to consider:

Sergeants can get Bolters for a point, which seems to me a great option if you don't buy the plasma pistol instead. Having 10 long arms in an infantry squad feels right for the Guard.

The one point bolter is worth mentioning, and I'll include that. I forget because I use old metal models and I'm not going to convert them to carry bolters!

sumi808 wrote:I like your thinking, thats why im only taking 1 conscript squad and making the rest all normal squads.

Once commissars/priests get assassinated the conscripts are really weak, poor leadership etc... I think running 3-5 commanders and 3-5 commissars is the way to go for infantry hoard guard imho - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731549.page#9471943

Guardsmen benefit from having a Commissar around, but Conscripts absolutely -need- one.

That sounds like a lot, but plenty of armies run 300pts or more worth of characters, ours are just cheap.

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

Talizvar wrote:Very good job.
Yes, wall of text.
But, I... read... every... word.

And that's the highest compliment I could receive

 Polonius wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biophysical wrote:Minor additions to the Infantry Squad entry to consider:

Sergeants can get Bolters for a point, which seems to me a great option if you don't buy the plasma pistol instead. Having 10 long arms in an infantry squad feels right for the Guard.

The one point bolter is worth mentioning, and I'll include that. I forget because I use old metal models and I'm not going to convert them to carry bolters!

I got on board when Catachan plastics just hit, so conversions ar e easy. A couple editions ago, all my LTs for Bolters, now they're sergeants.

I'll go for 2 10-man Squads cause i take 2 Primes (for 2 Comand-Squads) then i have 4 Orders for 4 Squads.

When you go full Scion - MSU then you struggle with orders

Excellent thread, looking forward to rest of it.

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

How are volley guns? I have a command squad outfitted with them

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

Darkagl1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

I mean I'm not necessarily out to get the strongest army, I just don't like how it appears at least to me that pure AM is by default worse than gsc because gsc is everything from AM plus more. Like DA/BA/SW all have to give stuff up to get their extra stuff, but at this point gsc seems like a noncodex chapter giving up nothing.

 SHUPPET wrote:

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

This basicly. Also this is how AoS was when points dropped as thier wasn't much of a reason to just be all one faction. Currently the only reason to stick to one faction is to stack up buffs.

When the codexes come out they will provide bonuses for being all one faction. In AoS the battletomes being all 1 faction you get access to faction relics, faction special abilities, and faction spells, and you only get this if your WHOLE army is that one faction.

Looking at matched play now you pick a keyword for you army that the whole thing shares, and i think the faction wide buffs provided by the codexes will be based on that. Though interestingly GSC armies will retain thier faction if they are all GSC with 1 AM detachment as thier keyword is ignored for army faction.

Thiers a lot of the "imbalanced," "overpowered," etc and the games only been out for a few weeks. The meta doesn't even exist yet so thier's really not much to compare any of this too as everyone has like 10-20 games under thier belt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkagl1 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

I mean I'm not necessarily out to get the strongest army, I just don't like how it appears at least to me that pure AM is by default worse than gsc because gsc is everything from AM plus more. Like DA/BA/SW all have to give stuff up to get their extra stuff, but at this point gsc seems like a noncodex chapter giving up nothing.

what are DA/BA/SW giving up that GSC aren't. You can add AM units directly into any of your detachments or add an AM detachment to your army similar to GSC. Thier's literally no difference....

Fast Attack

Okay, so it's come to this. While never a highlight of the IG codex (aside from the fabled 5th edition codex with 130pts vendettas), fast attack is simply meh in 8th edition. Unfortunately, few armies are as suited to fill out a Brigade Detachment and roll deep with command points than AM. Which means we need to pay a three fast attack unit tax. Unlike the rest of the codex, which is full of units that are cheap and effective, Fast Attack is home to the middling and the surprisingly expensive.

Scout Sentinels
Starting here, the sentinels had a smooth transition into 8th, going from AV10 with two HP (super fragile) to T5, 4+ save, with six wounds. That is unequivocally a more durable platform. Of course, with only heavy weapons and BS4+, they can't really move and shoot all that well. And, really, the only weapons that are remotely decent are the lascannon and the heavy flamer. The mutilaser, as thoroughly discussed, is a pea shooter, and the autocannon gives up too much to the lascannon for only five points. One thing to keep in mind is that a sentinel with lascannon is actually five poitns less than an infantry squad with a lascannon, and while it doesn't have the lasguns, it has only four less wounds with higher toughness and better save. I'm not suggesting you buy three lascannon sentinels and use their scout move to burrow in terrain and stand and shoot... but that's not the worst way to fill these slots.

Another decent approach is to aggressive, with a heavy flamer, and use the model to get in the way. At movement 9”, it has a 17” range with the heavy flamer, and it can fight a very, very little bit. The key here is to flame and/or assault either light support troops, or transports to prevent them from moving as directly as they'd like. The Scout Sentinel gets to move 9”, but not within 9” of enemy units, prior to the first turn, which allows you to either find a shooting perch, or threaten a flank.

Another trick with these is if the enemy has deep strikers, you can use their scout move to extend the 9” bubble they cannot land in. Sure, they can land and shoot/charge the sentinels, but that's probably a win! The chainsaw is fun, but with only one attack at WS4+, the odds of even forcing a save is pretty low, but you when it causes a failed save you'll feel pretty good. Interestingly, these do not degrade, meaning they fight just as well at one wound left as with six. They also explode, causing a mortal wound within 3” on a 6+. All told... if you really want cheap fast attack that actually do something... grab three of these with heavy flamers, and cram them into your opponent, forcing him to deal with them instead of the real meat of your army. You will do some wounds with the heavy flamer, you might tie up a shooting unit for a turn in assault, and you might do a mortal wound when it inevitably dies!
Overall: semi-competitive (but necessary!)

Armored Sentinel
Basically a sentinel that trades the scout move for a 3+ save, but costs five points more. I wish I could be clever here, but this unit assumes you want to buy a really expensive heavy weapon that can't take orders. To be fair, it can take a plasma cannon alongside the other options, which is somehow the same price as an autocannon... which actually is really dumb, and if you are going to buy these things, I'd run them with plasma cannons at a cool 55ps per. Outside of range, I'd rather take a special weapon squad with three plasma guns for ten points less, more shots, and more mobility. Still, if you want reasonably durable lascannons, this is pretty good place to get them. If you have enough heavy armor in your list so the enemy isn't sending lascannons at them, they'll likely survive quite a while. Still, this is a reach for a unit that really doesn't offer much.
Overall: Casual

Hellhounds
A bit of an interesting choice, as the three species of genus hellhound are actually different model choices, but share the keyword Hellhound. The Hellhound has a single wound on the basic Chimera, and also is no faster, in a change from prior editions. The three versions are differentiated by their turret weapon. The basic Hellhound has an inferno cannon, which has a healthy 16” range, heavy d6, always hits, with Strength 6, Ap-1, and damage 2. Compared to the old template, the hellhound simply isn't going to burn down hordes anymore. But.. with AP1 and D2, this is your best killer of two wound units like bikes, Crisis suits, or even storm shield terminators. All of this is only 3 points more than a heavy flamer, on a chassis two points cheaper than the chimera. So, a hellhound with inferno cannon/heavy flamer is only 1 pt more than a chimera, while also rocking an extra wound. This gives you an idea how much GW values transport capacity in pointing out units. The other quirk of the basic hound from hell is that it explodes on a 4+, dealing d3 mortal wounds to all unit within 6”, so keep this guy out of your lines.

The Devil Dog mounts a melta cannon, which is a multimelta with d3 shots. This is a great weapon, but it is... not a bargain. Yes, a double melta Devil Dog has d3+1 melta shots at 24”, but it still suffers -1 to hit if it moves, and it runs 128pts, which is pricy for AM, but is actually pretty decent for vehicle mounted multimeltas across the game. One thing to consider is that with 24” range, in most games, the Devil Dog will never need to actually move. With the ability to deliver so many melta hits, this tank is a genuine threat, and when mixed with other threats, it can provide a lot of pressure on the enemy to deal with your armor. Also, 128 points is less than the bare bones hull of a Leman Russ, which has only one pip of toughness (albeit an important one) and an extra wound.
Finally, for the nihilist in all of us, the Bane Wolf provides the chem cannon, a heavy flamer with Ap-3 which wounds everything but vehicles on a 2+. This is somehow actually cheaper than a heavy flamer, it's natural pairing, giving you a nasty close range tank for 105 points. Save a command point to reroll the die for number of shots, but this could melt a squad of heavy infantry. Unlike in prior editions, when a vehicle that could shoot that short range of a gun would likely be wrecked in close combat the next turn, the Bane Wolf can actually survive some combat, but of course, will not be able to shoot if it falls back. Still, this is not an expensive vehicle compared to the rest of the game, and can easily win it's points back with a good shot.
As pretty capable medium tanks, the hellhound is arguably the strongest choice for Fast Attack, but you need to make sure you have enough other armor in the list that they don't get shot up turn one. Mix three of them with some chimeras, a superheavy, pask, or even artillery to swamp your opponent with armor.
Overall: competitive

Rough Riders
The proud recipient of multiple buffs, Rough Riders are, if not good, at least capable of acting as shock troops. The hunting lance is no S+2, AP-2, with d3 damage, which is great, but with no bonus for charging, models only get one lance attack a turn. Instead, they each get one chainsword attack, and another trampling hoofs attack. In short, if they charge, they get the lance and two basic swings, and otherwise, they just get the two swings. They are also now two wounds a piece, which combined with the increased durability of 5+ saves, makes them harder to shift than previously.
In one of the never ending pendulum swings, Rough Riders once again can take up to two special weapons instead of hunting lances, including the omnipresent plasma gun. They also gained a nifty outflanking rule that allows them to deploy within 7” of the board edge, but more than 9” from the enemy. However, they do not have any buffs to charging, making this a bit risky.
So, there are basically two main approaches. First, you go minimum squad with two plasmas or flamers, and you use them as a highly mobile, slightly durable special weapon squad. The second is that you go bigger with all lances, and you actually try to kill some folk. A full squad charging a rhino will lay three or four wounds on it, and if it does fall back, it will allow the riders to charge again. At 50pts for a minimum squad, and 100 for a max, they provide some options for either counter-charge or flanking that an otherwise all infantry army might lack. If you're going for an all infantry brigade, I'd look hard at the horsemen, then you deny your opponent a good target for his heavy weapons. They wont' buzzsaw through tough units, but they will do work. Also, if you can at all get a priest near them, that doubles their hunting lance attacks.
Overall: competitive

Flyers
A tragic victim of one of the few times a codex unit moved to Forgeworld only, the loss of the Vendetta leave the valkyrie as the only flyer left. Since Troops is a short section, I thought I'll talk about the old warbird next.

Valkyrie
As discussed above comparing a hellhound to a chimera, 8th edition 40k places a tangible and high point value on transport capacity. [to recap: a hellhound w/ heavy flamer costs only one more point than a dual heavy flamer chimera, making transport 12 roughly equal to an extra wound and swapping a heavy flamer for the inferno cannon.] It's not surprising that the Valkyrie went up in cost, but that's not all that's suprrising. First, it's shockingly durable. With the near standard T7 and 3+ save, the Valkyrie is a pretty standard medium vehicle, until you see 14 wounds (four more than a chimera!). Also, while moving as a flyer, the Valkyrie is a hard to hit, with all shooting having a -1 penalty. Flyers do not have base rules, but instead join three rules. The first is hard to hit, while the second is airborne, which prevents it from being charged by non-fly units, or fighting or being fought by those units that cannot fly. Finally, supersonic is a simplified version of 6th7th edition flier movement. You pivot up to 90 degrees, move 20-45”, with no further pivots. This movement is limiting if you're firing, but as a transport, it works pretty well. Further, the Valkyrie has the Hover Jet rule, which allows it to ignore many of the flier rules and just move normally up to 20”, while being hit as normal.
So, it's a tanky little craft, but what does it do? It's not the shooting, I can tell you that right now. It has the same weapon options as always. In the nose, you can pick between the virtually worthless multilaser, or a lascannon. (Guess which one I think you should pick.) On the wings, hellstrike missiles are no longer limited in how many times they can fire, but simply get one Krak missile shot per turn, with longer range and rolling two dice, pick the highest for damage. Multiple Rocket Pods are basically heavy bolters with d6 shots. You can also add two heavy bolters if you'd like. Not unlike the chimera, you have the option between weapons that don't do much, and spending even more for weapons that still only do a little bit. In my book, the lascannon easily eclipses the multi-laser for only 10pts more. Even hitting on 5s, a lascannon shot can change a game in a way three multi-laser shots never will. Under the wings, the hellstrikes are slightly cheaper, but are really just fancy krak missles. However, if the krak missile hits, it will do some nice damage. Both wing missiles are overcosted, and I'd honestly rather have neither at that price. Still, aside from heavy bolters, there's a 12 point total difference between the cheapest loadout (ML/hellstrikes) and the most effective (LC/MRPs). I say spend the points. Speaking of points, on top of the points in weapons, the valkyrie chassis runs you well over a hundred points, with street legal birds clocking between 160-172 points. This is well above a chimera, for not that much more fire power, but a substantial bump in speed and durability.
This makes the Valkyrie the better transport, but what makes it really great is the return of the old Grav-Chut insertion rule. As before, it allows models to disembark at any point in the move, but more than 9” from enemy models. Further, if the Valkyrie moves more than 20”, you lose a model on a d6 roll of 1. However, because the units disembark, and are not deployed, they can move as normal during their turn. If you have a unit that wants to get close in, this is the transport for it! Meltas, flamers, and even shotguns like being able to ditch out 9” from the enemy and walk to within 3”. For units like shake n bake veterans (flamerx3, heavy flamer, shotguns, power first), two special weapons squads, or most cheesily three command squads, the valkyrie really puts them where they want to be. Just don't go looking up flyer transports for other armies, or you might get depressed.
Overall: competitive

mmimzie wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

This basicly. Also this is how AoS was when points dropped as thier wasn't much of a reason to just be all one faction. Currently the only reason to stick to one faction is to stack up buffs.

When the codexes come out they will provide bonuses for being all one faction. In AoS the battletomes being all 1 faction you get access to faction relics, faction special abilities, and faction spells, and you only get this if your WHOLE army is that one faction.

Looking at matched play now you pick a keyword for you army that the whole thing shares, and i think the faction wide buffs provided by the codexes will be based on that. Though interestingly GSC armies will retain thier faction if they are all GSC with 1 AM detachment as thier keyword is ignored for army faction.

Thiers a lot of the "imbalanced," "overpowered," etc and the games only been out for a few weeks. The meta doesn't even exist yet so thier's really not much to compare any of this too as everyone has like 10-20 games under thier belt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkagl1 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems imbalancesd.

If that's not balanced than the entire imperium is imbalanced and has been so for a ling time because those factions could ally up silly nilly for years now.

I think it's pretty fluffy and helps tryranids and GSC from being made uselesss by being islolated from allies, while coming at a cost. The cost is that you must have a detachment that is strictly GSC to bring a single AM detachment. Which I think is fair enough.

Well perhaps the imperium won't be balanced, but in theory that is done by losing bonuses from playing a tighter faction. The gsc rule presumably gets around that, because it's a significant portion of that army. Which then begs the question why play guard instead of gsc.

well, thats what allies are in essence. Play with GSC + AM if you want what GSC has to offer. Play with pure AM if you don't. The same question could be asked, why not just ignore both and take the strongest army in the game at the moment? A large part of this game is an attachment to your own models and army, and if you don't have that and your number one priority is the strongest army available, there is likely much better options than GSC mixed with Guard.

I mean I'm not necessarily out to get the strongest army, I just don't like how it appears at least to me that pure AM is by default worse than gsc because gsc is everything from AM plus more. Like DA/BA/SW all have to give stuff up to get their extra stuff, but at this point gsc seems like a noncodex chapter giving up nothing.

what are DA/BA/SW giving up that GSC aren't. You can add AM units directly into any of your detachments or add an AM detachment to your army similar to GSC. Thier's literally no difference....

Well for instanced DA don't get centurions, sternguard, etc etc etc. And unlike AoS gsc explicitly get to keep their faction...

 Polonius wrote:
Fast Attack

The Devil Dog mounts a melta cannon, which is a multimelta with d3 shots. This is a great weapon, but it is... not a bargain. Yes, a double melta Devil Dog has d3+1 melta shots at 24”, but it still suffers -1 to hit if it moves, and it runs 128pts, which is pricy for AM, but is actually pretty decent for vehicle mounted multimeltas across the game. One thing to consider is that with 24” range, in most games, the Devil Dog will never need to actually move. With the ability to deliver so many melta hits, this tank is a genuine threat, and when mixed with other threats, it can provide a lot of pressure on the enemy to deal with your armor. Also, 128 points is less than the bare bones hull of a Leman Russ, which has only one pip of toughness (albeit an important one) and an extra wound.

What´s the general opinion about the Devil Dog? I've been planning about adding two Devil Dogs to my army as my anti-tank. I already have plenty of Scions, Ministorum troops for hand to hand combat, a Hellhound, and some transports....

SU-152 wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Fast Attack

The Devil Dog mounts a melta cannon, which is a multimelta with d3 shots. This is a great weapon, but it is... not a bargain. Yes, a double melta Devil Dog has d3+1 melta shots at 24”, but it still suffers -1 to hit if it moves, and it runs 128pts, which is pricy for AM, but is actually pretty decent for vehicle mounted multimeltas across the game. One thing to consider is that with 24” range, in most games, the Devil Dog will never need to actually move. With the ability to deliver so many melta hits, this tank is a genuine threat, and when mixed with other threats, it can provide a lot of pressure on the enemy to deal with your armor. Also, 128 points is less than the bare bones hull of a Leman Russ, which has only one pip of toughness (albeit an important one) and an extra wound.

What´s the general opinion about the Devil Dog? I've been planning about adding two Devil Dogs to my army as my anti-tank. I already have plenty of Scions, Ministorum troops for hand to hand combat, a Hellhound, and some transports....

MAGNETS!

Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM

then experiment

personally im going to magnetise and run 3 HH with HF

 sumi808 wrote:
MAGNETS!
Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM
then experiment
personally im going to magnetise and run 3 HH with HF

It is the only logical thing to do with the varying rules that came out that would radically change the bad weapon to good and Vice-versa.
Used a fair number of autocannon turrets (LR) so I could fire the sponsons too, was good for aircraft as well.
Happy I did that for most items.
Bad news? Had MANY old Chimeras and the standard weapon was the multi-laser.... so another way to kill the old models!
I thought there was a campaign against battle-cannons for a while there.

 Talizvar wrote:

 sumi808 wrote:
MAGNETS!
Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM
then experiment
personally im going to magnetise and run 3 HH with HF

It is the only logical thing to do with the varying rules that came out that would radically change the bad weapon to good and Vice-versa.
Used a fair number of autocannon turrets (LR) so I could fire the sponsons too, was good for aircraft as well.
Happy I did that for most items.
Bad news? Had MANY old Chimeras and the standard weapon was the multi-laser.... so another way to kill the old models!
I thought there was a campaign against battle-cannons for a while there.

You can still make it work. Snip the gun off, drill hole, attach magnet, and do the same, maybe with a quick plasticard shroud around the other side of the gun like what the new chimera has. I haven't done any yet but I spent some time starting at it the other day. I bet I could do all 5 or 6 of mine in one evening

 Polonius wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Since they're really not a standalone army, do you think it'd be reasonable to include Assassins among other IG elites?

I will be covering them, but not along with the other Elites. I'm working on the Elites now, and it's already a pretty bloated section. I'll probably talk about them in a follow up, along with knights, inquisition, and any other high use imperial allies.

Are Knights & Assassins good? If so, I second the desire to hear about them within an IG context.

Guys please for the love of all that is good use spoiler tags

 sumi808 wrote:

SU-152 wrote:


What´s the general opinion about the Devil Dog? I've been planning about adding two Devil Dogs to my army as my anti-tank. I already have plenty of Scions, Ministorum troops for hand to hand combat, a Hellhound, and some transports....

MAGNETS!

Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM

I magnetized the hull weapons for my 5th edition Hellhounds, but the turret weapons have a nice plug, and you don't even need to magnetize. they fit nicely just by pressure, and if that fails, use a dab of rubber cement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Since they're really not a standalone army, do you think it'd be reasonable to include Assassins among other IG elites?

I will be covering them, but not along with the other Elites. I'm working on the Elites now, and it's already a pretty bloated section. I'll probably talk about them in a follow up, along with knights, inquisition, and any other high use imperial allies.

Are Knights & Assassins good? If so, I second the desire to hear about them within an IG context.

to give a peek ahead at my plans for the next few updates:
- Heavy Support (I haven't even started this, so probably not until late this week)
-Lords of War (Eight very similar super heavies, I'll enjoy a relatively quick turn around)
-Selected FW units (Hopefully as much as possible. Depending on my energy, I might split the superheavies into their own discussion)
-Traditional Allies, including assassins, Sisters, and inquisition (possibly Grey Knights if I'm really feeling it). this likely won't be unit by unit, but broader with the highlights discussed
-Imperial Knights
-Modern Allies, including Admech, Talons, and Space Marines (even more sketched out)
-Krieg/Elysian list discussion (Honestly, I'm waiting for consensus on this to settle down a bit as well)

I have some more ideas for what are, essentially, blog posts or articles, that I might write up if I'm still feeling it. Things like how to physically start an IG army, a discussion of the various models over the years, third party companies and other resources for bits and full models, etc. Obviously, this will all be months worth of work, and I can't promise anything beyond the AM units in Index 2.

to quickly answer you question: all of the assassins are good, and at under 100 points, with more wounds, the protection of the character rule, and the ability to "deep strike", they can truly act as assassins. The eversor has a 78% chance of charging after appearing thanks to 3d6 charge (keep in mind CP rerolls), making him able to simply lock down any backfield shooting units the enemy decides to bring. The callidus can be super annoying, while the Vindicaire is both super durable and able to reliably (if not swiftly) put wounds on enemy characters. The Culexus really prefers to be fighting near psykers, so depending on your area, he could be solid. As for knights, they're not as nasty as they were in 7th, although a full army can still be quite good. They are very good in close combat, with the ability to make 12 dreadnought level attacks, or 4 titan level attacks, but they also have a 5++ invulnerable in shooting, with no move and shoot penalty. Most critically, they can fall back, and still shoot and charge, meaning as long as they are alive, they really can't be locked up, and and will grind down the enemy. My current though is to take a Warden with Stormspear pod (essentially 3 Krak missles for 45 points).

I used 2 Scout Sentinels with autcannons, one armoured with a lascannon, since that's what they're made as. Autocannons is weaker, but still a shot more to trade that off.

It only happend wth 'nids, but a Sentinel would have some skill holding up a unit in melee as well, the cheap chainsaw upgrade making it an almost certainty you'll kill off one infantry model per turn (armour save roll suceeded not taken into account). Either they got to break off to keep moving and shooting (usually the next turn) or they grind the melee until one or the other dies.

Keeping in mind of course, don't think you'll survive with actual melee oriented untis.

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems .

the trade off for taking gsc is you can't take the rest of the imperium as allies. And let's be honest gsc even with a Tyranid detachment doesn't hold a candle to the vast amount of models and choices within the imperium. Assassins, guilliman, Celestine, knights, every marine variant etc etc can never be taken in a gsc list.

So ya sure purestrain genestealers are a fun assault unit that pairs well with IG however that's honestly no worse then the rest of the imperium.

gungo wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

gungo wrote:Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

That sounds interesting, but how do they share a keyword? O

It's in the Genestealer Cult special rule actually, you can have up to one AM detatchment per GSC det, to represent the fact that most world plagued by a cult got lots of members in the PDF and such.

Also, for the Scions discussion:

I only played a few games, but I believe that 5-men squads are not for the same role as a 10-men squad.

I used my 2, 5-men squads (one with 2 grenade launchers, one with 2 Hot-shot volley guns) as finishers; drop'em come turn 3 and just finish off a HQ or support unit that only had a few wounds remaining, enough so that the Stormtroopers can take'em out, Worse case they'll suck up some shots and allow my normal troops to stay on the table/kill it off. 10 men would be more for actual ST duties, like spearhead assault or capturing ground in your opponent's side, and with a Prime close by, add some vox and they draw attention.

I'm actually really disappointed there isn't some sort of limit on the gsc thing. Like sure let them take some stuff but the generic take whatever guard you want thing seems .

the trade off for taking gsc is you can't take the rest of the imperium as allies. And let's be honest gsc even with a Tyranid detachment doesn't hold a candle to the vast amount of models and choices within the imperium. Assassins, guilliman, Celestine, knights, every marine variant etc etc can never be taken in a gsc list.

So ya sure purestrain genestealers are a fun assault unit that pairs well with IG however that's honestly no worse then the rest of the imperium.

Sorta. If I want to play imperium I get the full range of imperium units but my stratagems and warlord traits will be limited to the basic rule book (whether stratagems matter enough for that to matter we don't know). If I want to play AM I get the AM units and starts. If I play gsc I get gsc units and starts and all AM units. So unless the AM strats are overwhelmingly good (or the gsc ones overwhelmingly bad) there doesn't seem to be a cost to gsc essentially being a much bigger unit list AM army. It doesn't make sense to me because with the noncodex chapter marines we can see a elegant solution. The DA/BA/SW give up certain core marine units in order to bring their special units in, I don't get why gsc aren't the same way.

I fail to see how that's any different to having a space marine detachment with their own strategems. It's really not any different. It's almost universally better allying in other imperium units, considering the only great unit in gsc is the purestrain stealers w patriarch.

I think you can come up with some good reasons to run GSC with AM, mostly because the GSC have hard hitting assault units that can ambush. It's a very specialized army vision, but one that I think could be a lot of fun.

A broader Imperium army will always have more options, including many similar ones, such as spamming eversors instead of relying on cult ambush.

Given the requirement to have half the army start on the board, mixing GSC and AM does cut into the AM ability to bring in Scions, and it also precludes bringing a super heavy (unless that is the only AM detachment you bring in.) However, that leaves a number of truly great units, all of which love to start on the board. Namely, you can drop conscripts & friends, plasma vets, and artillery, all of which will provide on the board pressure while cult ambush hits them where they live. It's not all that different in theory than a scion heavy hammer and anvil army, just with assault instead of shooting.

 Polonius wrote:

 sumi808 wrote:

SU-152 wrote:

What´s the general opinion about the Devil Dog?

MAGNETS!

I magnetized the hull weapons for my 5th edition Hellhounds, but the turret weapons have a nice plug, and you don't even need to magnetize. they fit nicely just by pressure, and if that fails, use a dab of rubber cement.
____

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Are Knights & Assassins good? If so, I second the desire to hear about them within an IG context.

to give a peek ahead at my plans for the next few updates:
- Heavy Support (I haven't even started this, so probably not until late this week)
-Lords of War (Eight very similar super heavies, I'll enjoy a relatively quick turn around)
-Selected FW units (Hopefully as much as possible. Depending on my energy, I might split the superheavies into their own discussion)
-Traditional Allies, including assassins, Sisters, and inquisition (possibly Grey Knights if I'm really feeling it). this likely won't be unit by unit, but broader with the highlights discussed
-Imperial Knights
-Modern Allies, including Admech, Talons, and Space Marines (even more sketched out)
-Krieg/Elysian list discussion (Honestly, I'm waiting for consensus on this to settle down a bit as well)

I have some more ideas for what are, essentially, blog posts or articles, that I might write up if I'm still feeling it. Things like how to physically start an IG army, a discussion of the various models over the years, third party companies and other resources for bits and full models, etc. Obviously, this will all be months worth of work, and I can't promise anything beyond the AM units in Index 2.

all of the assassins are good, and at under 100 points, with more wounds, the protection of the character rule, and the ability to "deep strike", they can truly act as assassins. The eversor has a 78% chance of charging after appearing thanks to 3d6 charge (keep in mind CP rerolls), making him able to simply lock down any backfield shooting units the enemy decides to bring. The callidus can be super annoying, while the Vindicaire is both super durable and able to reliably (if not swiftly) put wounds on enemy characters. The Culexus really prefers to be fighting near psykers, so depending on your area, he could be solid.

As for knights, they're not as nasty as they were in 7th, although a full army can still be quite good. They are very good in close combat, with the ability to make 12 dreadnought level attacks, or 4 titan level attacks, but they also have a 5++ invulnerable in shooting, with no move and shoot penalty. Most critically, they can fall back, and still shoot and charge, meaning as long as they are alive, they really can't be locked up, and and will grind down the enemy. My current though is to take a Warden with Stormspear pod (essentially 3 Krak missles for 45 points).

Thanks much on the capsule thoughts, much appreciated. I'm guessing Knight paired with Arty means absolutely zero need for 8E IG Tanks.

Also, if you're a filthy casual, COUNT AS >> MAGNETS! Of course, if you're casual, then WYSIWYG works fine, too.

gungo wrote:
I fail to see how that's any different to having a space marine detachment with their own strategems. It's really not any different. It's almost universally better allying in other imperium units, considering the only great unit in gsc is the purestrain stealers w patriarch.

Imperium keyword - all imperial units, but not extra strategems, relics or warlord traits.

AM keyword - all AM units, AM strategems relic and warlord traits.

GSC keyword - all AM units all GSC units, GSC strategems, relics, and warlord traits.

Notice how with the AM in order to get more you give up strategems whereas with GSC you're playing AM+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
I think you can come up with some good reasons to run GSC with AM, mostly because the GSC have hard hitting assault units that can ambush. It's a very specialized army vision, but one that I think could be a lot of fun.

A broader Imperium army will always have more options, including many similar ones, such as spamming eversors instead of relying on cult ambush.

Given the requirement to have half the army start on the board, mixing GSC and AM does cut into the AM ability to bring in Scions, and it also precludes bringing a super heavy (unless that is the only AM detachment you bring in.) However, that leaves a number of truly great units, all of which love to start on the board. Namely, you can drop conscripts & friends, plasma vets, and artillery, all of which will provide on the board pressure while cult ambush hits them where they live. It's not all that different in theory than a scion heavy hammer and anvil army, just with assault instead of shooting.

Sure imperium has a broader spread of units but they already said going imperium you're limited to basic rule strategems and warlord traits (and get presumably no relics). The issue I see is by giving GSC the full AM list they've essentially made AM+ while giving up nothing. Right now yes imperium is the same way but as codices roll out GSC will get their strats and traits and imperium will not.

Well, all we really have to analyze right now is the rules of the Indexes. So, I'm not too worried about any potential future bonuses for GSC. It seems very unlikely that they will allow a full codex AM detachment, but will likely either allow a limited range of units, or adding in AM will cause the GSC to lose some rules.

Either way, that's both hypothetical and concerns game design, which is a bit beyond the topic of this tread.

 sumi808 wrote:

MAGNETS!

Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM

then experiment

personally im going to magnetise and run 3 HH with HF

Sadly I can't use magnets since one of the hellhounds is the old model, and I don't want to mix models, so everthing would have to be Devil Dogs.

Anyways, for the same point cost, a Manticore seems better. Almost the same damage output but never worring about range...

 Polonius wrote:
Well, all we really have to analyze right now is the rules of the Indexes. So, I'm not too worried about any potential future bonuses for GSC. It seems very unlikely that they will allow a full codex AM detachment, but will likely either allow a limited range of units, or adding in AM will cause the GSC to lose some rules.

Either way, that's both hypothetical and concerns game design, which is a bit beyond the topic of this tread.

Tbh, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. I think GW likes those allies quite a bit. But you're right - neither here nor there.

Bluthusten wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
.

Bluthusten wrote:Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

I think that's a 400 point package, and while I think it will mulch a squad when it hits, it damn well should. To give you some comparison, for ~660 points, you can take ten sternguard, with a fist and two heavy flamers, a dreadnought with assault cannon, CCW, and heavy flamer; and a Stormraven with hurrican bolters, twin lasannons, and twin multi-meltas. Yes, that's 60% more points, but it's way more durable, better in HtH, and has far more anti-tank.

yes, you built one of the best airmobile shock squads available to the IG, but it's still not a great buy. I think it would be a ton of fun though!

I though about Silvester Stallone and his crew from The Expendables

This....made me laugh harder than almost anything I've ever seen on this forum

Hey everybody, I haven't forgotten about this project. My wife broke her ankle last week, so I've been busy taking care of her. I hope to find some time to at least finish the heavy support section by Friday.

 Polonius wrote:
Hey everybody, I haven't forgotten about this project. My wife broke her ankle last week, so I've been busy taking care of her. I hope to find some time to at least finish the heavy support section by Friday.

Don't worry about it. Wives are more important than 40k.

Family >> 40k.

Take as much time as you need.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Family >> 40k.

Take as much time as you need.

Third

I wish your wife a speedy recovery.

Looking forward to reading the thread once the time is right for you to continue it.

I refresh this page everyday hoping for more.

Take your time to sort your wife out.

I can't wait for a full review! Everything so far is saved as a google docs file on my drive, it just seems so well thought out and reasonable. Thanks!

CombedTurnip wrote:
I refresh this page everyday hoping for more.

Take your time to sort your wife out.

I can't wait for a full review! Everything so far is saved as a google docs file on my drive, it just seems so well thought out and reasonable. Thanks!

Me too, I hope he can get back to it soon.

Hello all, and welcome back! My wife's surgery ended up being more complicated than they though, so while she is recovering nicely, I've been very busy. Still, I've managed to put together my heavy support section. As always, comments and questions are appreciated.

Heavy Support

This is the part of the review that old school IG treadheads look forward to the most – discussion of tanks, and artillery, and.. well, basically those two, plus heavy weapon squads. Traditionally a strength and source of offensive heavy lifting, the heavy support options have cooled off a bit while the rest of the list has improved over the last 17 years. Still, it will be an unusual AM army that doesn't include some of these delights...

Heavy Weapons Squad
For those interested in history, heavy weapon squads danced all over the Force Org Chart. In the 3rd edition back of the book lists, they were actually bundled as either mortar, fire support(heavy bolter/autocannon), or anti-tank (Missile/Lascannon) squads, and they were split between troops (fire support) and heavy support (the rest). In third edition, they were part of the HQ platoon, and limited to no more than two of a kind, and five total. (Fun fact, you could also take a sentinel squadron as part of the HQ platoon). In the 3.5 codex, they stayed in HQ, but could also be taken as platoons in heavy support. In the 5th and 7th edition books, they were part of the platoon, and could finally completely mix and match weapons. Now, they are independent heavy support options, and holy cow are they terrific.  One of the reasons they are so good is that, like all non-veteran Infantry
While they pay full price for the weapons, the base squad is suspiciously cheap at 12pts. This makes triple mortars only 27pts, while even trip-las runs a mere 72pts. Even at BS3, this is very efficient source of long range fire power. Unfortunately, they are fragile, with only six total wounds spread over three models. This means that weapons that are Damage 2 will kill a full base, and at T3/5+ save, expect to see a lot of 2+ to wound, no save against them. That said... not a lot of armies spam Damage 2 weapons, at least that I've seen so far. And even in an all infantry list, where the enemy lascannons and other stupidly powerful weapons will be shooting at the heavy weapon squads, it takes more shots than you'll think.  (the math is boring, but to kill a full squad of three, it takes 6 shots at BS3+, S6 or higher, AP2 or higher, and damage d6).  Regardless, these are not durable squads, but they have a huge amount of firepower on a fragile platform.  Due to this, you can’t take just one squad with lascannons and expect it to do much.  You either need to spam multiple squads to minimize the losses, or with the ability to split fire, you can put lascannons in squads with two mortars.  This makes for a very cheap lascannon (42pts) but I would keep in mind that not every opponent will be able to wipe out the squads, so consider running some squads with full weapons.
On that note, which weapons should you take?  The biggest loser is probably the missile launcher, which pays a sizable premium for versatility, and no army with access to as many lasguns, heavy bolters, and mortars as the IG should pay a premium for a frag missile option.  All of the other options have uses, although the Autocanon remains, shall we say, “niche.”  (the autocannon is the best weapon against some targets, such as termiantors and other multiwound models with good invulnerable saves, which IMO makes it a fine weapon in a couple of infantry squads, but not worth burning a heavy support slot over.)  However, the other three are all very solid.  The mortar is the easiest to see the value in, because it’s so dirt cheap, and can shoot without LOS.  It’s good on its own, and it also makes ideal ablative wounds for more expensive options.  IN the end, it is just a bunch of S4 shots that still need to roll to hit, but the squad is so laughably cheap that there seems to be little downside, other than inflating your kill point total.  The heavy bolter is a legit gun in 8th edition, and while it will never do a lot, it will reliably chip wounds off anything it shoots at.  That sort of minimal firepower is fine at the price, which is very low. On top of providing the firepower, a squad like this can dramatically increase your armies footprint, limiting drop zones for enemy deepstrikers.
Finally, you have the real star of the show, the lascannon.  The IG are interesting in that while they are famed for being a gunline army, the list doesn’t provide a lot of strong long ranged firepower options.  Infantry based lascannons are actually good in 8th edition, and the heavy weapon squads are the most point efficient way to field them.  As discussed above, when packing lascannons, the squads are threatening and expensive enough to justify making them a priority, and with only six wounds, they won’t last long.  Either spam them like hell, or mix them with mortars or heavy bolters.  When bought in three-packs, they’re actually a pretty decent target for orders, but that’s not enough reason, on its own, to run them straight. 
Overall: Highly Competitive
 
Basilisk
Another long serving IG model, the baslisk is a classic.  It’s always been a long range, powerful, indirect fire weapon, and 8th edition does not change anything.  In terms of durability, the “open topped” nature of the bassie is represented by the model being T6 instead of the usual Chimera hull T7, but it has the 11 wounds of the hellhound, one more than the basic transport.  T6 is obviously more vulnerable to S6/S7 weapons than T7, but that’s the range of weapons which have suffered the most from the shift to 8th, and I do not see the loss of toughness as being huge.  Further, the bassie doesn’t even need line of sight with its main gun, so feel free to hid it if you can.  While she can take a heavy bolter or heavy flamer (and you should take the cheaper heavy bolter) the star of the show here is the earthshaker cannon.  Like in prior editions, it’s basically battle cannon with S9, but it also rolls two dice for the number of shots, picking the highest.  This yields roughly 4.5 shots a turn, which does drop to only 2.25 hits, but those hits hit pretty hard.  It’s only AP-2 and Damage d3, but it’s wounding almost anything on a 3+, with infantry eating it at 2+.  Unlike in prior editions, this is not meant to shoot at single wound infantry, instead it’s clearly designed for hitting multiwound models.  It also does yeoman’s work against vehicles, stripping roughly 1.5 wounds from T8, 3+ save models.  Keep in mind that it has ridiculous range and indirect fire, meaning it can reach out and touch anything on the board. 
It can also be bought in a three pack under the Vehicle Squadron rule.  This rule causes the “unit” to be deployed as one, with all models within 6” of each other.  After deployment, however, each model acts independently.  This is actually a pretty positive rule, because it allows you to cram more artillery in a battalion detachment, while also minimizing your drops.  OTOH, it does increase your kill point total, and prevents buffs from improving three at once.  On the whole though, it’s a positive rule, as it allows the IG to bring more medium vehicles to the party.  
While a fine piece of kit, I think that the bassie suffers from being the middle child between the harder hitting Manticore and higher volume of shots from the Wyvern.   The old girl is very affordable at just over 100pts, and it can fire at full effect until it drops to only 5 wounds.  If you are a retruning player with an old basilisk, or you happen to prefer howitzers to mortars or rockets, the bassie is a solid, multifaceted choice.
Overall: competitive

Hydra:
A true piece of specialist kit, the Hydra is designed to shoot down flyers, and that’s about it.  The start of show here is the Hydra Quad Autocannon, an eight shot autocannon that gets a +1 to hit flyers, and a -1 to hit all other targets.  The crucial thing to remember is that “flyers” now include any unit that moves through the air in any way, not just 6th edition style flyers.  So jetbikes, jump pack infantry, winged monsters, and skimmers all are “flyers,” and so the hydra gets a +1 to hit them, even if they do not have the Hard to Hit rule.  So, the Hydra is essentially BS3+ against flyers that are not hard to hit, BS4+ against hard to hit flyers, and BS5+ against everything else.  This alone makes the Hydra a reactive weapon – there is no reason to take it unless you play against units that Fly.  Still, Flyers are so common, it’s a safe bet the Hydra will get a chance to shine.  Looking at the Hydra against a common vehicle archtype, the deadly storm raven, the Quad only lays two wounds per turn, which perversely is actually less than a three lascannon heavy weapon squad.  However, against jetbikes, the Quad guns hit on 3s, wound on 3s, and outright kill a bike per shot due to damage 2, meaning it will waste nearly two jetbikes per turn.  For raw firepower, the Hydra suffers from the same ceiling as the basic autocannon: low AP, and only damage 2. 
Defensively, the Hydra has the same basic chassis as the basilisk and other “open topped” artillery, combining the wound count of a medium tank with the toughness of a light tank.  It also can be bought in “squadrons” like the basilisk.  Unfortunately, the Hydra is a fairly pricey option, clocking in at over 120pts a piece.  While more durable than in prior editions, it’s just pillow fisted and narrow in focus.
Overall: semi-competitive

Wyvern:
Probably one of the best units in the codex last edition, the Wyvern retains its focus as a light infantry killer, with the same artillery chassis as the basilisk, but the extravagantly named “wyvern quad stormshard mortar” as the main gun.  This weapon is not subtle: it can fire out of LOS, with 4d6 shots at S4, rerolling wounds.  That sounds like a lot of potential wounds, but like all blast weapons, the need to roll to hit means that even against T3, you’re not even forcing seven saves.  Sharp eyed readers might ask why buy the Wyvern when it’s basically the same as two mortar heavy weapon squads, which are cheaper and easier to hide out of line of sight.  The Wyvern is arguably more durable, and it can take advantage of the Master of Ordnance aura.  In general, this isn’t 7th edition, and I wouldn’t make the wyvern the go to artillery piece.  Absent some ability to increase either the number of shots or hits, this is another casualty in the switch away from blast templates.  Not for the first time, a weapon that had been twinlinked in 7th edition lost the re-roll, but kept the overall number of shots.  One of the reasons the Wyvern was nasty in the past was that it got four twinlinked shots, which nearly guaranteed bunched up hits with no need to roll against BS.  At d6 shots at BS4+, the wyvern will average nearly two hits per mortar, which was easily eclipsed in prior editions.  The Wyvern is comparatively cheap at just over 90 points per, but I’d take two heavy weapon squads with mortars at 54pts every time. 
Overall: semi-competitive

Manticore:
Here is your heavy hitter.  The manticore is actually more durable than most artillery at T7 (historically it was not open topped), and it cannot be bought in squadrons.  However, it is armed with four storm eagle rockets, each of which can only be fired once, and only one per turn.  (Oddly, nearly all other limited ammo weapons were simply made Heavy 1, such as hellstrike missiles.)   The rocket hits hard, with 2d6 shots at Strength 10, Ap-2, and Damage d3.  Do not, unless you have no other choice, waste this on single wound models.  Against heavy vehicles, each rocket will average about six wounds, which doesn’t sound like much until you realize it takes over six lascannon shots (at BS4+) to do the same work.  With huge range, no need for line of sight, and a price tag just north of 130pts, the manticore hits harder, and far more efficiently, than the rest of the artillery options.  The only real drawback is that it can only fire four times, which will come up less than you think.  Most games will be more or less decided long before turn five, and even without rockets it’s a durable objective grabber if need be. 
This isn’t a complicated entry: the manticore hits harder than anything else less than a lord of war, and is surprisingly affordable. 
Overall: highly competitive. 

Deathstrike
A variant on the manticore, the Deathstrike has only one big missile which hits very, very hard. It's heavy 3d6, and every hit causes a mortal wound! Further, every other unit within 6” from the target takes d3 mortal wounds on a 4+. In theory, this makes the deathstrike a powerful option for hitting not only tough units (averaging 7 mortal wounds) but also tightly packed clusters of enemy units. In practice, the utility of this is hamstrung by the special rules. Not only does the deathstrike only shoot once, it can only shoot by rolling a d6, adding the turn number, and hitting 8 or more. Which means it cannot fire turn one, and only fires turn two on a 6+. This makes this weapon quite unreliable, and allows an enemy to target it at their leisure. The deathstrike had been a fun, goofy option for several editions, and that doesn't really change. The reality of modern 40k is that by the time this thing fires, the game will be more or less decided, making it either too little too late, or just piling on.
Overall: casual

Leman Russ Battle Tank
I don't want to bury the lede, so let's just start by saying that the LRBT is not a very good choice. I'll talk about why, and I'll talk about ways to mitigate it, but the basic tank simply cannot hold up to the better options in the book.

To start, the LRBT is one of the few vehicles to become less durable in the change to 8th. In the past, the front armor 14 and long range meant that long range anti-tank weapons actually struggled to hurt the basic Russ. Instead, most Russes went down to either meltas or close combat. Now, instead of a lascannon hit having only a 1/3 chance of stripping a hull point, it has about a 5/9 chance of stripping 3.5 wounds. Meltas now strip 3.5 wounds half the time, even at full range. The tank is actually more durable against combat now, but the days of the LRBT shrugging off enemy lascannons are over.

To make matters worse, the LRBT is pretty pillow fisted. In prior editions, even the basic battle cannon had a really good chance of hitting, and when it did, it laid a Strength 8, AP3 hit on everything it touched. It now averages just under two hits a turn at Strength 8, Ap-2, and Damage d3. It's hard to tell what the ideal target for it is. I guess multiwound models, to get the most out of the d3 damage, but it's not an efficient anti-tank gun, and doesn't have the shots to really threaten infantry. An admittedly better is the Eradicator Nova Cannon, which drops to S6 but prevents units from gaining the benefit of cover. (It also halves the battle cannon's range.) This is pretty clearly meant to clear enemy infantry, but will still average less than a dead marine a turn. The exterminator cannon again went from four shots, twin linked, to... just four shots. Autcannons are not good enough for two of them to justify a Leman Russ chassis. Finally, that leaves us with the Vanquisher cannon, which has S8, AP-3, and damage d6, with the ability to roll two dice pick the highest regardless of range. This is actually worse than a basic lascannon against T8 targets, so keep that in mind. The Battle Cannon is technically the cheapest option, but it's only three points less than the other choices, so I wouldn't call it the budget option. Still, if you feel the need to run a Leman Russ, I would go battle cannon, simply because it can do anything the other three offer, while having luxurious range.

The hull and sponson options don't exactly make the tank great, but they are, surprisingly, more of a reason to buy the tank than in prior editions. I'm pro heavy bolters, and three of them will always force some saves on nearly any target. The hull lascannon probably makes more sense in an infantry squad or tank commander, because full price for a BS4+ lascannon on a fire magnet is not a great plan. I generally feel the same way about multimelta sponsons. Plasma sponsons are actually a pretty good buy, although they are only heavy d3. Still, Russes have a special rule that causes the model to only lose six wounds if an overcharged plasma rolls a one. That's a steep price to pay, especially since you also lose the ability to shoot plasma. IG have no shortage of access to plasma, so I'm not sure I'd shoehorn them in here. Finally, heavy flamers, while priced at full retail, are intriguing, as you can move and shoot all three to full effect. The “Fireball pattern” Russ seems more fun than powerful, simply because the LRBT cannot fall back out of combat and still shoot. This means that if you don't kill what you hit with the heavy flamers, odds are, the Russ will be assaulted, and not shooting for at least a turn.

Is there any good news? Well, the LRBT has a healthy move of 10”, meaning it no longer is a lumbering behemoth. It also does have a special rule allowing turret weapons to ignore the -1 penalty for moving and shooting. If I were forced to play this unit in a game, I would probably go for the battle cannon with single heavy bolter, and use it's speed to hassle the enemy on the flanks. It's a bit pricy, even in this skinny version, at 162pts, but I just do not see any traditional gunline use for this unit.

Overall: semi-competitive

Leman Russ Demolisher

The Index splits the Leman Russ variants along familiar lines, although the demolisher variants no longer enjoy any enhanced durability. Instead, the split seem to be made primarily on cost, with the demolisher variants clocking in at one higher power level, presumably because the have usually had more expensive sponson/hull weapons, as the only turret option dramatically more expensive is the actual demolisher cannon itself. The punisher is actually the cheapest possible LR turret weapon! The split in the index also reflects the kit being split, and thus allows GW to only include the rules that are appropriate for each half in the box, although SM scouts, one of the few other unit choices split between two model boxes, are a single unit entry.

Outside of price and turret options, everything said about the LRBT applies to the Demolisher, so lets look at those turret options. The Demolisher cannon itself is an impressive piece of kit. Retaining it's traditional 24” range, it has d3 shots, but d6 against units with more than five models, making it far more versatile. Even against monsters and vehicles, the Demolisher cannon will bad touch most targets with S10, AP-3, and a healthy d6 damage. So, you have basically a d3 shot lascannon that can move and shoot without penalty, that can also go full blast against large units. This power comes at a healthy price tag, at 40 points above the chassis. Still, if you want a tank that will do some damage, this is your girl. The executioner cannon, which was a three shot small blast before, is now merely heavy d6... which is the same as a lot of single small blasts, like frag missiles. It can be supercharged, and if you roll a one or more ones to hit, the model takes d6 mortal wounds. So... don't do that unless you have rerolls. This option isn't horribly expensive, but no army is spoilt for plasma choice more than IG. You can buy a lot of Special Weapon Squads with plasma guns for the price of a single LR Executioner. Finally, the Punisher gatling cannon offers 20 shots at S5, focusing on sheer volume of fire. In many ways, this is the strongest option, fully loaded with heavy bolters and a storm bolter at 178pts, this puts out a 31-33 shots. The only thing to keep in mind is that the Taurox prime with mini gatling cannon does much the same thing for cheaper, but S5 is admittedly better against a broad array of targets (anything with T4, T5, or T8) As a leman russ, it can move and shoot without penalty, meaning you're forcing quite a few saves against almost any target. If you had to include a Russ, I'd probably go with this one.

Overall: semi-competitive

I'm surprised at your grading on the Manticore. I've fielded it three times and it never does anything. Bad luck on my part? Good luck on my opponents? Poor choice in target?

I guess I should give it another couple of tries. In the end, I never manage any more than 3 or 4 wounds on whatever I'm trying to kill.

The performance of a Manticore is very much luck-based. It has a LOT of range in both number of shots and how much damage it does.

While I agree the Manticore is great I'm curious how you got the six average wounds.

7 shots average, 3.5 hits, 2.333 wounds vs t7 and 8, 1,556 unsaved vs 3+ results in only 3,111 damage.

Mostly agree with what you have in for heavy support. I've found the artillery to be very good with the Master providing an aura. The Russes I think are somewhat necessary just to soak fire, but it's a balancing game don't really want too much. Ive found the most luck fielding a command punishser with an executioner tagging along. The orders let you overcharge it all and that's a lot of plasma. As you said heavy weapon squads are cheap and good

I've been disappointed with the wyvern. Most of the time youre shooting troops out of LoS. In cover. Gaining them a +1 to save. And even with re-rolling wounds. Hitting on fours. It doesn't get a ton of wounds. And if you moved. Hitting on 5's.....sad times.

Manticore is a nice unit. Having something that can hit while out of LoS is a nice thing to have. The enemy knows they can't hide.

Great thread, really enjoying it!

I'm going to disagree with you on Hydras. They're static 8 shots make them very solid choices in a TAC army. I played against a GK army with no <FLY> keywords and they still put out an impressive amount of damage against a Knight and squad of Paladins. So much so they started to get targeted by anti-tank fire.

The strength of Hard to Hit type flyers means you'll be facing them a lot with little reliable means to deal with them. Guard themselves only have the very garbage Valk to answer to things like Stormravens, Stormwolfs, DE and Eldar jets, the list goes on.

A lot of gamers compare the Hydra to the basic HW squad with 3 ACs, but you'd need to take 2 full HW squads with auto cannons to match the to-hit output of a Hydra against anything that flies. That's 114 points vs 123 and add to that the fact that it's a 72" range gun and WAY more survivable than a HW squad and it's clear the Hydra has a place in a lot of competitive lists. You even get a Heavy Bolter in there so that makes the points cost nearly identical.

Nice read. I have only played 2 games of 8th using my guard but I won them both and I found using the vox for an 18" order bubble was really good. I had creed, a command squad and 3 vet squads and I was able to spread my guys out whilst keeping creed out of line of sight (he had sniper scouts). I mainly used "Take aim!" For the reroll of 1s for my plasma guns but it also gave my missile launchers better accuracy enabling them to really bring the pain to his vehicles.

 More Dakka wrote:
Great thread, really enjoying it!

I'm going to disagree with you on Hydras. They're static 8 shots make them very solid choices in a TAC army. I played against a GK army with no <FLY> keywords and they still put out an impressive amount of damage against a Knight and squad of Paladins. So much so they started to get targeted by anti-tank fire.

The strength of Hard to Hit type flyers means you'll be facing them a lot with little reliable means to deal with them. Guard themselves only have the very garbage Valk to answer to things like Stormravens, Stormwolfs, DE and Eldar jets, the list goes on.

A lot of gamers compare the Hydra to the basic HW squad with 3 ACs, but you'd need to take 2 full HW squads with auto cannons to match the to-hit output of a Hydra against anything that flies. That's 114 points vs 123 and add to that the fact that it's a 72" range gun and WAY more survivable than a HW squad and it's clear the Hydra has a place in a lot of competitive lists. You even get a Heavy Bolter in there so that makes the points cost nearly identical.

For my AA Im going to run a Thunderbolt with 6 Skystrike missiles. Cool model. And the thought of guard having some air support (Which isn't a hover) is interesting to me. Hits fliers on 4's.

I just envision a thematic fight in the air.

Totally agree, if we're moving into FW there's fantastic AA options in the Aeronautica Imperialis.

For stock Index/Codex only situations (Tournies that are no FW, etc) I'm always going to bring a squad of 2 Hydras.

FW really shifts a lot of the discussion about IG overall.

The Conqueror puts all the LR tanks to shame for it's point cost and coaxial stormbolter alone. The Hydra/Manticore/Basilisk platforms are a better buy than any of their tracked counterparts and the Griffon completely pants'es the Wyvern for almost 30 points less.

I concur on FW skewing the IG discussion. The quad launchers are not as deadly as they used to be and went up in price, but they are still an excellent buy if you're looking for anti infantry options. Since they are crewed by infantry they can also receive orders while benefiting from auras as well.

The Forgeworld units are now actually as unbalanced as people have always accused them of being. For decades ,people have viewed FW with suspicion, while it has mostly been overpriced and fiddly. Now? There are some killer units, dumb pricing, and plenty of typos. It's hard to really assess some of the FW choices due to this.

As for the manticore, I think I miscalculated, so I'll fix that in a few hours. I still think it's one of the more potent weapons we have access to.

The Hyrda just doesn't get it done. Two wounds a turn against medium flyers just isn't a lot of damage. Even with three, it would take you two turns to whittle down a stormraven. But.. slapping around two wound models, or models with a good invulnerable save? It's pretty solid.

Just a small correction; the Deathstrike averages 5,25 mortal wounds to it's target (3x3,5 = 10,5 / 2 = 5,25), not 7.

It also "on average" causes 1 mortal wound to units within 6"

This thing isn't even casual, it's for people who are into self-harm. :/

I loved fielding it in 6th and 7th. It was never a good choice (back then it *was* casual), but it was fun and on occasion it did something spectacular. Now in 8th, it's not even fun, it's just depressing.

 rhinoceraids wrote:

Spoiler:

 More Dakka wrote:
Great thread, really enjoying it!

I'm going to disagree with you on Hydras. They're static 8 shots make them very solid choices in a TAC army. I played against a GK army with no <FLY> keywords and they still put out an impressive amount of damage against a Knight and squad of Paladins. So much so they started to get targeted by anti-tank fire.

The strength of Hard to Hit type flyers means you'll be facing them a lot with little reliable means to deal with them. Guard themselves only have the very garbage Valk to answer to things like Stormravens, Stormwolfs, DE and Eldar jets, the list goes on.

A lot of gamers compare the Hydra to the basic HW squad with 3 ACs, but you'd need to take 2 full HW squads with auto cannons to match the to-hit output of a Hydra against anything that flies. That's 114 points vs 123 and add to that the fact that it's a 72" range gun and WAY more survivable than a HW squad and it's clear the Hydra has a place in a lot of competitive lists. You even get a Heavy Bolter in there so that makes the points cost nearly identical.

For my AA Im going to run a Thunderbolt with 6 Skystrike missiles. Cool model. And the thought of guard having some air support (Which isn't a hover) is interesting to me. Hits fliers on 4's.

I just envision a thematic fight in the air.

That sounded tempting till I saw it was 94 pounds.

 Polonius wrote:
The Forgeworld units are now actually as unbalanced as people have always accused them of being. For decades ,people have viewed FW with suspicion, while it has mostly been overpriced and fiddly. Now? There are some killer units, dumb pricing, and plenty of typos. It's hard to really assess some of the FW choices due to this.

As for the manticore, I think I miscalculated, so I'll fix that in a few hours. I still think it's one of the more potent weapons we have access to.

The Hyrda just doesn't get it done. Two wounds a turn against medium flyers just isn't a lot of damage. Even with three, it would take you two turns to whittle down a stormraven. But.. slapping around two wound models, or models with a good invulnerable save? It's pretty solid.

I agree that they're not the best at taking down Stormravens/wolves but nothing else in our bag is good except for Pask in a Demolisher, which is what you should be using to take down that level of flyer.

More to the point, it's the other units that the Hydras excel against that makes them worth it. In a tournament the odds of facing off against Eldar, DE, Necrons, Nids, Tau are pretty high and all of these armies are packed with dangerous units that fly. Hitting them on 3's with re-rolls of 1 bc Harker (always Harker) make the Hydras pretty deadly for their points cost.

Really enjoyable read. Just like the 5th edition version!

Any chance of a review of some of the key forgeworld units for AM? I.e. Vendettas, Vultures, Malcadors?

Did FW make a profile for the Leman Russ Annihilator? Been thinking about that model recently and would be interesting to see how it does on the table if it survived the transition to 8th. Can anybody with the FW Indexes see if it's around?

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Did FW make a profile for the Leman Russ Annihilator? Been thinking about that model recently and would be interesting to see how it does on the table if it survived the transition to 8th. Can anybody with the FW Indexes see if it's around?

Yes, its literally a double lascannon turret for double the points of a lascannon.