Veterans lost doctrines, no vehicle options. How much effort did we all lose just to dumb down an army so little Kevin's space marines don't get rofl stomped ? So geedubs can sell a 20 dollar expansion ?

Hours you'll never get back, hours spend using greenstuff to make those camo plate carapace plates on your vets, money wasted by buying those bulldozer blades, hours of searching melta bombs for your sergeants. Money, effort wasted to respect the wysiwyg, for what in the end ?

Was it to much asked to get a +1 on your save having those camo nets, gear, carapace armour ? Having a source for meltabombs ? Was there an ink limit ? A fun limit ?

Does geedubs take a book of physical laws and says "we will base this s**t edition from page 1 to 152 and forget the last 23 chapters"

Does geedubs say at their meeting stuff like "make it good, but not too good, we don't want to have an edition so good we don't need to update it with new armies, new space marines, new rules books, so no one needs to buy the same recycles stuff they already have. Btw great idea Steve you fedora wearing ratling penetrator producing those Primaris, we will just make up an ogryn turd height of fluff, and say that they are totally not normal space marines, and people still gonna buy them to build the exact same army they already so they have the satisfaction of true scale marines. But we gonna say them that they don't need to buy a new army, but like that, it is going to grow in the back of their heads, having true scale marines, not the same height as the gorilla looking cadians while playing, in the end they gonna start collecting and see how great the new models are"

Playing warhammer and dealing with geedubs looks more like an abusive relationship at best between customers and a money hungry company.

I really love the new edition, but they left out WITHOUT ANY REASONS THE OTHER HALF OF THE LOGIC IN THIS GAME. WHAT BANEBLADE GETS -1 TO HIT WHILE MOVING BUT THE RUSS DOESN'T ???!!!

PLATOONS GONE, OH YEAH BECAUSE THE VOICE OF THE PLATOON COMMANDER CAN ONLY BE HEARD SQUAD BY SQUAD NOW HUH ?!

HUMAN REPRESENTATIVES CAN'T STICK THEY GOD DAMN HEAD OUT THE RAMP OF A CHIMERA ?! DID THE MECHANICUS FINALLY ODed ON LIGHTER FLUIDS ??

geedubs, hope you goin bankrupt

garage hammer and house rules all the way !

There's some glimmer of hope the independent codex will bring back some stuff.

For every good thing they did, I feel like there's at least another thing they did poorly with the Guard.

I guess on the plus side, the faction is overall pretty strong, so there's that.

I'm sure you won't listen but Index<Codex

Further than that Imperial guard are now one of the most competitive codex's too

Everyone lost flavour in the switch to 8th, my 'little kevins' space marines lost armour options, weapons options and custom chapter masters, hell i was using FW chaper tactics that may not be replaced and all my tactical marines have chainswords...

And you know what, i'm cool with it, because codex's are coming>

OP is the very picture of someone who has no idea what's going on with other people's armies.

A lot of cool conversions got boned like the camo cloaks on vets

asides from that meh.

the game is in the best state its been in a long while.

Platoons are gone because massive units benifit way too much from individual aura buffs

its for the game balance otherwise you sit there spread eagle across the table with a commissar on one side and a commander on the other with free split fire and an effectively fearless army.

Arachnofiend wrote:
OP is the very picture of someone who has no idea what's going on with other people's armies.

EVERYONE got bit by this edition, just be thankful you don't play Tau...

I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

Exalted. Ain't this the damn truth.

I could complain how Ravenwing got nerfed hard. They really did. My Landspeeders, of which I have five, cost as much as a Dreadnought and are not even half as durable. We lost our wonderful rerollable jink saves. Black Knights cost as much or more than Terminators and aren't nearly as durable. I could go on. Except I won't complain, because guess what? Another part of my army, the Deathwing, are now viable for the first time in, well, ever! Azrael went from being an overcosted chump in 7th to being the best character in the DA lineup in 8th. We got some cool new Primaris marines. And I suspect every army has a similar story. Even Astra Militarum.

So instead of whining, pissing and moaning, get out there and figure out which units in your army got better. Believe me, there are some. Change your lists. Paint some new gak. And above all, wait for your actual codex to drop before shaking your fist at GW.

C'mon dude.... chill out for a second. Use your head. They have said repeatedly that the indexes are a jumping in point so that every army can play 8th right from the start. Instead of like 7th where armies had to wait a year for an update. Codices will be rolled out that have more taste and more information for armies. It sounds like you've become so obsessed with rules that you don't even enjoy the game... If you did, then you would evolve with the game when it changes and look forward to using your army in a new way. How many people play guard, how many people play this game, they can't make 100% perfect amazing rules for each and every individual person that ever exists. They make the base rules, and it's up to us to learn how to use it. You complain that your WYSIWYG no longer matters, but I bet it looks awesome on the table. You don't even care about that. You should take a breath, get a cool drink of water, and remember what you enjoy about the army and what you want out of your own hobby. Complaining doesn't do anything, it's poison. Best of luck to you.

 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

I take exception to this! I am perfectly happy with my Genestealers' new rhinoplasty degree!

Unsatisfied customers are free to speak to HR (aka: my broodlords).

vendetta's being reduced to bs 5, or otherwise sitting still really pisses me off. You're punishing a flyer for...... flying. The mechanic is neither intuitive, nor interesting.

otherwise things seem ok.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

Exalted. Ain't this the damn truth.

I could complain how Ravenwing got nerfed hard. They really did. My Landspeeders, of which I have five, cost as much as a Dreadnought and are not even half as durable. We lost our wonderful rerollable jink saves. Black Knights cost as much or more than Terminators and aren't nearly as durable. I could go on. Except I won't complain, because guess what? Another part of my army, the Deathwing, are now viable for the first time in, well, ever! Azrael went from being an overcosted chump in 7th to being the best character in the DA lineup in 8th. We got some cool new Primaris marines. And I suspect every army has a similar story. Even Astra Militarum.

So instead of whining, pissing and moaning, get out there and figure out which units in your army got better. Believe me, there are some. Change your lists. Paint some new gak. And above all, wait for your actual codex to drop before shaking your fist at GW.

Even better, i'm still scared of black knights, the nerf was from god tier to generalist butt kickers.

Honestly there's certainly some not worth units, but overall there's far more now tha is decent and far less that is stupidly OP... ironically much of the latter comes under Imperial Guard units

 General Orange wrote:
40k is a scam bc the indexes aren't the be-all-end-all of gameplay for IG

Riiight. Everyone got the same damn crap. Nobody has their snowflake options. Around 50 units are missing right now. This has nothing to do with SM players being terrified of losing, they are solidly below average atm.

This is a complete overhaul of 40k, on a release schedule that is frankly insane. You can't seriously expect what is essentially a public beta test to have the full features of the final version.

Get off you over-emotional horse and sit down like the rest of us.

Can't believe I'm having to defend GW...

You think GeeDubs screwed IG? Geedubs and forgeworld screwed renegades and heretics!

No millitia training = ork shooting without volume of fire.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
You think GeeDubs screwed IG? Geedubs and forgeworld screwed renegades and heretics!

No millitia training = ork shooting without volume of fire.

And let's not forget that IG are by a large margin the best army in the game right now. OP has absolutely no reason to complain about who doesn't want to lose to who.

Dont understand all the whining, wailing, weeping and gnashing of teeth tbh.
Us Sisters players are pretty happy.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Dont understand all the whining, wailing, weeping and gnashing of teeth tbh.
Us Sisters players are pretty happy.

Just wait until you're the last codex, and then they release C:SM 2 and forget to do it.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
OP is the very picture of someone who has no idea what's going on with other people's armies.

EVERYONE got bit by this edition, just be thankful you don't play Tau...

Tau are fine - try playing them in 3rd to 5th... now that was a challenge. 6th edition Tau ruined it for all the original players as everyone jumped on the bandwagon and spammed the new units/FoTM.

 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

And nobody bitches more than people bitching about the bitchers.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

And nobody bitches more than people bitching about the bitchers.

I don't know. The people bitching about the people bitching about the bitchers are really strong this year. I think you guys might have the edge!

I've got to assume that OP hasn't seen many edition changes. This is far from the first time that vehicle upgrades or squad equipment options have been ditched.

This happens all the time to all armies, get used to it.

Compared to the minor annoyance of a few lost upgrade options (did you really take dozer blades for the rules, not the looks?) is entirely outweighed by Guard having gone from being hopelessly rubbish to properly good.

 General Orange wrote:
Whine whine whine whine WHINE WHINE WHINE.

Oh dear.

So it looks like the OP lost a game to Space Marines and came running to the internet to post an incoherent rant about how his army has been ruined, complete with examples of one or two individual rules changes (ignoring any gains his army has made) and three final paragraphs in all caps. All this while his army sits clearly at the top of dakka's power table, compiled from all the recorded wins and losses on the forum.

The truth is that no matter what GW did, if they made the perfect game, if everything was balanced to make every player happy, they would still be powerless to change the biggest problem with the game - people like the OP.

My advice to you, OP, is to be the guy this edition change has so far sadly lacked - the guy who burns his army and uploads the video to YouTube. That would be funny. Either that, or realise that it you're reacting anything like this in real life then you're the guy in your club that no-one wants to play. You're the bad loser who plays for the wrong reasons, placing too much emphasis on winning and not enough on fun. Take the time to learn how to play your army again, play for fun, wait for your codex, and try not to be a whiny douche when you lose.

 General Orange wrote:
Veterans lost doctrines, no vehicle options. How much effort did we all lose just to dumb down an army so little Kevin's space marines don't get rofl stomped ?

This is a really dumb thing to say considering that this edition is the absolute most powerful state Imperial Guard have ever been in the game's entire history.

Oh sweet, it's this thread again, where you look only at your own army in a vacuum and just assume the rest of the index is full of fully fleshed out armies. As a bonus we get the guy that hasn't read a single thread talking about what army is winning a lot now, or seemingly have played a single game of 8th. Welcome, mate.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 General Orange wrote:
Veterans lost doctrines, no vehicle options. How much effort did we all lose just to dumb down an army so little Kevin's space marines don't get rofl stomped ?

This is a really dumb thing to say considering that this edition is the absolute most powerful state Imperial Guard have ever been in the game's entire history.

I never got this weird idea that GW constantly writes the rules for space marines to be super strong. yes on average you can find a marine army or two that is high tier each edition, but this shouldn't be a suprise given how many marine varient armies there are. Marines have done well (they've also done poorly. just ask Martel about how strong his blood angels where in 7th )

also every army has had some of their choices etc reduced, space marines have likely lost more then guard have (with the new detachments there's simply no reason to bother with platoons) marines have lost chapter tactics, numerous upgrade options, including artifacer armor on captains. generic chapter masters (which is a bit of a loss given CMs have a superior buff bubble) IG is hardly unique in this. IG are currently the strongest army in 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:
Oh sweet, it's this thread again, where you look only at your own army in a vacuum and just assume the rest of the index is full of fully fleshed out armies. As a bonus we get the guy that hasn't read a single thread talking about what army is winning a lot now, or seemingly have played a single game of 8th. Welcome, mate.

and whom belvies GW writes the rules purposefully to make it impossiable for marines to lose.

My Field Artillery, my 9 Leman Russ Tanks (half of them Mars-Alpha) and my Rapiers were all made worse, so I guess that's several hundred euros worth of units that are now worse. On the other hand, the rest of my army was actually made much more playable so I'm happy I don't have to rely on certain units to be my crutches anymore.

But I don't think OP understands why the game is abstract in certain ways to keep it a game, nor that releasing all codices at the same time would have been unfeasible. All armies have lost somethng for now, and might get it back later. I wouldn't worry too much right now.

Y NO PLATTONS?

Simple, really. Battleshock/Leadership. That's changed how I deal with hordes of infantry. Rather than just try to find a pie plate or three to sling at them, I now try to stack my damage just right to maximise ancillary casualties inflicted at the end of the turn.

But then, you have Commissars to muck that up. Commissars which can reduce any and all LD casualties to 1.....

See that? That's why you don't get Blob Squads anymore.

Y NO CPARCAER ARMOUR?

Because your basic 5+ save is now way, way better than it ever was before. The majority of small arms don't bypass or reduce your armour's effectiveness.

Y NOO FLIP LID ON CHIEMAR??

Nobody can do that unless their transport is open topped. It's not something done solely to Guard.

Chill dude. You're focussing solely on things you no longer enjoy, without questioning why.

A guy at my FLGS spent about $4k on his Renegades and Heretics army. Beautiful to see, mostly Forgeworld models. Took him almost 2 years to complete. He's played it for maybe 6 months.

The Codex better be good, he's not enjoying 8th at all. All that work for a game where the principle activity is removing his models from the board and mumbling "I have no counter for that."

 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

GW fandom in a nutshell. "OMG I hate you, you ruined my life! Here's a thousand dollars!"

 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

Truth. The negative whiners are the ones making the most noise, as it has always been. Most are out there enjoying the game. It's way better than it was in 7th.

One day I'll understand what the point of focusing on the negative is, or what the point of complaining about something is seeing as it will have no effect on anything really. Just pointless.

Was someone genuinely surprised that some things will get better, some will get worse, some will vanish and something new will also come along? How did you manage that, how is it even possible?

 Runic wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

Truth. The negative whiners are the ones making the most noise, as it has always been. Most are out there enjoying the game. It's way better than it was in 7th.

One day I'll understand what the point of focusing on the negative is, or what the point of complaining about something is seeing as it will have no effect on anything really. Just pointless.

Was someone genuinely surprised that some things will get better, some will get worse, some will vanish and something new will also come along? How did you manage that, how is it even possible?

I've noticed it's the same few specific people going into alot of threads personally.

There will be more options in the Codices, I reckon.

Also, Guard are really great in this edition, so I have no idea why you are whining.

zerosignal wrote:
There will be more options in the Codices, I reckon.

Also, Guard are really great in this edition, so I have no idea why you are whining.

Quoted for truth. Top 2 or 3 faction and your whining your not better?

Whining that certain units are lackluster is still valid. Units A, B and C might be very good or overpowered, and could in fact be carrying the entire army to the top spot on the rankings, but I might not want to use them. Instead, I want to use D, E and Q instead, which are all solidly below-average to average. Or hell, maybe I actually lovingly converted unit X last edition just to see that it's gone this one. I liked my Quad Launcher, and although they were too good last edition, I don't see why they had to be nerfed to solidly behind most AM options for S4-5 fire support.

In a perfectly balanced games, all choices should be equally valid. Maybe not against all possible targets (i.e. X points of Lasguns should still be worse than X points of Lascannons against vehicles or monsters, but should be better against infantry), but in a general sense.

 feltmonkey wrote:

 General Orange wrote:
Whine whine whine whine WHINE WHINE WHINE.

Oh dear.

So it looks like the OP lost a game to Space Marines and came running to the internet to post an incoherent rant about how his army has been ruined, complete with examples of one or two individual rules changes (ignoring any gains his army has made) and three final paragraphs in all caps. All this while his army sits clearly at the top of dakka's power table, compiled from all the recorded wins and losses on the forum.

The truth is that no matter what GW did, if they made the perfect game, if everything was balanced to make every player happy, they would still be powerless to change the biggest problem with the game - people like the OP.

My advice to you, OP, is to be the guy this edition change has so far sadly lacked - the guy who burns his army and uploads the video to YouTube. That would be funny. Either that, or realise that it you're reacting anything like this in real life then you're the guy in your club that no-one wants to play. You're the bad loser who plays for the wrong reasons, placing too much emphasis on winning and not enough on fun. Take the time to learn how to play your army again, play for fun, wait for your codex, and try not to be a whiny douch when you lose.

Untrue assumption, I didn't loose to space marines only, I played a few games, won and lost, so yeah.
I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.
You're the kind of guy who gets upset by capital letters huh ?
Uuuhhh yeah the polls says this so it has to be true, like no one is gonna come up with anti guard strats this edition.
Gw making balanced game ? Good joke. So we can't point out flaws line, uhhh, oh my favorite, weapons angles gone ? Do we have to imagine that the leman russ tokyo drifted a 360 turn so he can shoot behind ?
Well many share this view with me and love to play games with me mister internet psychologist, I may be a bad player, but I ain't a bad sportsman. I don't put emphasis on winning, just how this edition made so many wtf decisions it baffled me. The big part of 8th is great, but it feels like they intentionaly made bad rules, to keep us on edge or i dunno.
In defeat or in victory, I will be a whiny douche, cause I have to carry my army on foot from one corner of the city to the other on foot.So this the only thing you got right


Automatically Appended Next Post:

roddo wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
There will be more options in the Codices, I reckon.

Also, Guard are really great in this edition, so I have no idea why you are whining.

Quoted for truth. Top 2 or 3 faction and your whining your not better?

Not whining because we're hurr durrr ze top kompetef ahrmee

Complaining about time and effort put on models, for nothing in the end gameplay wise. And ripping fluff off

Statement Redacted. - Edit For Great Justice!

Arachnofiend wrote:
OP is the very picture of someone who has no idea what's going on with other people's armies.

Oh yeah because I cut out everything but the guard part of the index and never bothered to look at other armies, read their rules, speak with other players. Yeah right

 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.

Did you really just complain that some of your previously useless units got better?!

 General Orange wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
OP is the very picture of someone who has no idea what's going on with other people's armies.

Oh yeah because I cut out everything but the guard part of the index and never bothered to look at other armies, read their rules, speak with other players. Yeah right

Well it sure sounds like it.

 General Orange wrote:

In defeat or in victory, I will be a whiny douche

Ok. Well then. I guess that sort of settles it then. Ok then.

 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.

How DARE they? How DARE GW rebalance units which where previously bad/overpriced so that they are now better and worth fielding? It makes me sick!

TonyL707 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.

Did you really just complain that some of your previously useless units got better?!

It's a commonly employed tactic among the people that can't get past GW's past tendencies to "balance for profit." Which I will be the first to admit they historically did, but the current balance is sure as frickety-frack not that. If that was the case, Deathguard and Primaris would both, point for point, be clearly superior to any other choice.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I've got to assume that OP hasn't seen many edition changes. This is far from the first time that vehicle upgrades or squad equipment options have been ditched.

This happens all the time to all armies, get used to it.

Compared to the minor annoyance of a few lost upgrade options (did you really take dozer blades for the rules, not the looks?) is entirely outweighed by Guard having gone from being hopelessly rubbish to properly good.

Playing a mechanised army, yes, you're gonna need to reroll those ones, saved my butt many times.

 General Orange wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I've got to assume that OP hasn't seen many edition changes. This is far from the first time that vehicle upgrades or squad equipment options have been ditched.

This happens all the time to all armies, get used to it.

Compared to the minor annoyance of a few lost upgrade options (did you really take dozer blades for the rules, not the looks?) is entirely outweighed by Guard having gone from being hopelessly rubbish to properly good.

Playing a mechanised army, yes, you're gonna need to reroll those ones, saved my butt many times.

... and now you don't have to, because you can't get stuck anymore.

 Purifier wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
OP is the very picture of someone who has no idea what's going on with other people's armies.

Oh yeah because I cut out everything but the guard part of the index and never bothered to look at other armies, read their rules, speak with other players. Yeah right

Well it sure sounds like it.

 General Orange wrote:

In defeat or in victory, I will be a whiny douche

Ok. Well then. I guess that sort of settles it then. Ok then.

Could you at least quote the whole last sentence then, I know that dakka doesn't get humor much but thus one was obvious cmon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I've got to assume that OP hasn't seen many edition changes. This is far from the first time that vehicle upgrades or squad equipment options have been ditched.

This happens all the time to all armies, get used to it.

Compared to the minor annoyance of a few lost upgrade options (did you really take dozer blades for the rules, not the looks?) is entirely outweighed by Guard having gone from being hopelessly rubbish to properly good.

Playing a mechanised army, yes, you're gonna need to reroll those ones, saved my butt many times.

... and now you don't have to, because you can't get stuck anymore.

Money up my @ss ikr !?

 General Orange wrote:


Could you at least quote the whole last sentence then, I know that dakka doesn't get humor much but thus one was obvious cmon.

It's funny because you have to walk?

 General Orange wrote:


Money up my @ss ikr !?

Is this another one of your attempts at humour?

TonyL707 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.

Did you really just complain that some of your previously useless units got better?!

Hmm, baffles me, can't you understand a simple phrase ? I complain how geedubs does it everytime. New models comes out with bad rules, nobody gonna buy them, geedubs sees this, and decides to buff them with formation and/or new edition because of the money, or bad rule making.

Don't think I don't appreciate the new units, but it sure is to sell more. Question is why didn't they make actual good rules in the first place ?

 Purifier wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

In defeat or in victory, I will be a whiny douche

Ok. Well then. I guess that sort of settles it then. Ok then.

Yeah, I thought that was quite an odd counter to my argument that he sounded like a whiny douche.

 Purifier wrote:

 General Orange wrote:


Could you at least quote the whole last sentence then, I know that dakka doesn't get humor much but thus one was obvious cmon.

It's funny because you have to walk?

 General Orange wrote:


Money up my @ss ikr !?

Is this another one of your attempts at humour?

Try walking with a 2000 points collection in your rucksack a 40 minute walk to and from ,then talk, or if you're in the military, in which case you have to carry all the time stuff

 General Orange wrote:

Hmm, baffles me

I feel like this must be a common theme in your life.

 Purifier wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

Hmm, baffles me

I feel like this must be a common theme in your life.

Hmm baffles me too

There are rumours coming every faction has a chapter/regiment/sept/craftworld tactics.

So everyone will be gaining flavour in fact. You just gave to wait.

The current top army complaining? What is going on!

 jhe90 wrote:
There are rumours coming every faction has a chapter/regiment/sept/craftworld tactics.

So everyone will be gaining flavour in fact. You just gave to wait.

Okay !


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AaronWilson wrote:
The current top army complaining? What is going on!

Feels like 6th edition *gasp*

This I find really freaking funny. Imperial Guard are not only the current strongest army on a competitive level, they're also probably beating out space marines when it comes to different ways to fluff out your force because of their numerous ally options for GEQ.

Devastated by the loss of Carapace/Camo? Renegade Marauders have 'em, and share most of the exact same tanks and vehicles as regular guard. If you really want them, they're there.

Melta Bombs? If you're really that mad about melta bombs, just run your models as Elysians or DKOK - both have melta bomb units aplenty. Try an Elysian Special Weapon Squad and run them as breacher charges, they're amazing. Remember dude: It's all Astra Militarum, except for Renegades it can all be run in the same detachment.

Sneaky Catachan army? You can run some of your troops as Genestealer Cult. Forgeworld like Vostroya? Put Admech in the same detachment and just run it as Imperium.

If the loss of Camo Netting and Bulldozers alone (while it somehow making you MORE angry that the tanks you took them on are all pretty much universally better...) are enough to make you ragequit then quit, you were going to inevitably anyway. Ignore the fact that Hellhounds Manticores Basilisks Tauroxes Valkyries Hydras Sentinels and Baneblades were nothing but wastes of points before and are now all really solid.

Is it a giant conspiracy by GW to money-grub and sell literally everything in our model line except Melta-Vets and Wyverns? I mean, I guess you could see it that way. Or you could just look at it as an actually good army release for the first time in 3 editions.

 General Orange wrote:

TonyL707 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.

Did you really just complain that some of your previously useless units got better?!

Hmm, baffles me, can't you understand a simple phrase ? I complain how geedubs does it everytime. New models comes out with bad rules, nobody gonna buy them, geedubs sees this, and decides to buff them with formation and/or new edition because of the money, or bad rule making.

Don't think I don't appreciate the new units, but it sure is to sell more. Question is why didn't they make actual good rules in the first place ?

Because not every unit is going to end up well enough, but the idea is your complaining because they buffed a bad unit because they should've been perfect the first time. What?

 General Orange wrote:

Oh for Emprar's sake. You make ME look like an optimist, and that really takes some doing. You're really going to complain that underpowered units were made useful? What on earth makes you think that that is a bad thing? Every new edition has its ups and downs, and 8e is undeniably the most balanced edition for decades.

This has nothing to do with little timmy's space marines.

This has nothing to do with trying to screw the guard.

This has everything to do with EVERYONE being in the same damn boat beta testing a radically new edition that has not yet settled.

If you're leaving, can I have your models?

The indexes in general are almost entirely bereft of wargear, so every army has a laundry list of options that they hope the codex will bring back. Except the Necrons, who are just like "what are options?"

But even without those, IG is on the strongest footing it's been on since 5th. Especially with Forge World giving them access to full re-roll bubbles, +1 to hit bubbles, and knockoff markerlights.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

TonyL707 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.

Did you really just complain that some of your previously useless units got better?!

Hmm, baffles me, can't you understand a simple phrase ? I complain how geedubs does it everytime. New models comes out with bad rules, nobody gonna buy them, geedubs sees this, and decides to buff them with formation and/or new edition because of the money, or bad rule making.

Don't think I don't appreciate the new units, but it sure is to sell more. Question is why didn't they make actual good rules in the first place ?

Because not every unit is going to end up well enough, but the idea is your complaining because they buffed a bad unit because they should've been perfect the first time. What?

You know this isn't poilitcs geedubs does here, why is it too much asked for to have decent rules, giving rough riders scout in 7th was too much to ask for ? Did they had a shortage of ink to write "scout " or "outflank" ? A unit should not be perfect, you don't get the point, why does it it take geedubs several editions to make a decent unit while other tabletops only need one shot ?

I can understand the OP's frustration in tracking down pieces and spending all that time and money to make the army WYSIWYG, but you talk about this as if youa re used to it.
In which case, why are you moaning? You knew that one day it was likely to be a 'waste' of money. The only reasons I can really see to do it were
1) You needed to do it to make your army playable (Guess what? GW have fixed that for you - and yes, i appreciate there is an arguement for them having written it better in the first place and not needing to 'fix' it now)
2) It looks cooler/fits the theme of your army better. Pretty sure your army still looks cooler now! And as far as im aware, GW havent changed any of the army themes (though maybe that will change in new codexes, we'll have to wait and see!)
3) It was needed to make your army the top tier. In which case, many people will ahve little sympaty for you.

It sounds like your reasons were somewhere between 1 and 2. In which case, the rules now dont punish you for not takignthe extras, and your army still looks cool.
Is it the most customer centric business model? No.
Is it pretty much the way GW have always done things? Yes.
Does it make it right? No.
It is a bit of a first world problem? You betcha.

Hobbies are generally expensive. There are always changes that make other things irrelevant. Why on earth do sprots teams chage the kit every year or two? Purely for money. Its how businesses survive.
I get frustrated by GW's (often strange) way of distributing bits in boxes - especially multi unit kits.(I'm legs and a body away from several more Knights!)
I appreciate taht you were venting a bit of frustration, but many of the forum people had probably come to terms with this expense years ago. Whiel tehy migth apprecaite it there are alwasy going to be more vocal people who are going to try and beat you down!

Relax, deep breath, and move on.

 General Orange wrote:


You know this isn't poilitcs geedubs does here, why is it too much asked for to have decent rules, giving rough riders scout in 7th was too much to ask for ? Did they had a shortage of ink to write "scout " or "outflank" ? A unit should not be perfect, you don't get the point, why does it it take geedubs several editions to make a decent unit while other tabletops only need one shot ?

Why are you holding on to this grudge after the fix? You're saying it's bad that it's fixed now when it wasn't before. It's ridiculous at best. Leave the 7th grudges behind. I'm sure you'll build new grudges in 8th, so clean the slate for now.

 Selym wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

Oh for Emprar's sake. You make ME look like an optimist, and that really takes some doing. You're really going to complain that underpowered units were made useful? What on earth makes you think that that is a bad thing? Every new edition has its ups and downs, and 8e is undeniably the most balanced edition for decades.

This has nothing to do with little timmy's space marines.

This has nothing to do with trying to screw the guard.

This has everything to do with EVERYONE being in the same damn boat beta testing a radically new edition that has not yet settled.

wow does dakka dakka has some dort of idea filter ? I am not complaining about how underpowered unit got, thank god, useful, it's how geedubs made them intentionally bad for whole editions and then made them good. Was there a guy at geedubs who said "yeah this all great and that but we need to make them bad" see RR, ogryns, bullgryns, ratlings. Did they finally change some more competent staff ?

I am happy with my index, but feels like 6th and 7th edition got totally wasted with bad units in general without any apparent reasons since they made the effort of actually improving this damn game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
If you're leaving, can I have your models?

The indexes in general are almost entirely bereft of wargear, so every army has a laundry list of options that they hope the codex will bring back. Except the Necrons, who are just like "what are options?"

But even without those, IG is on the strongest footing it's been on since 5th. Especially with Forge World giving them access to full re-roll bubbles, +1 to hit bubbles, and knockoff markerlights.

if the offer is good enough maybe.

 General Orange wrote:
geedubs geedubs geedubs geedubs geedubs

 General Orange wrote:
geedubs

 General Orange wrote:
geedubs geedubs geedubs

 General Orange wrote:
geedubs geedubs

 General Orange wrote:
geedubs geedubs

Edgy.

I like this edition sorry but the problems are minor at best and since codex for any army are not out yet i think calm down a little plus the index's have created a balanced game so sorry but get a grip. Think of it this way when was the last time gaurd could fight necrons, eldar and tau without getting hammered with no way of victory lol.

 General Orange wrote:
wow does dakka dakka has some dort of idea filter ?

> Someone disagrees with me
> Their argument is automatically wrong
> Nobody could really disagree with me
> Must be an idea filter


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:

 General Orange wrote:
geedubs

Edgy.

Exalted

I spent six months collecting, building and painting a Death Guard Vectorium (using Traitor Legions formation), imagine how bummed I was with the Index.

However - codices are coming. And they are indicating they are willing to rebalance if units are under/over powered.

Patience is needed. (Much).

Man, this is a thread.

I'm still greenstuffing armor plates for my scions. I didn't buy dozer blades because they came with all my vehicles, and I didn't ever use them when they were an option. I greenstuffed bigger grenades for my sergeants that didn't look like actual meltabombs, but they were close enough. I'm still stomping Space Marines because everything got so cheap and because AP -2 is basically a standard issue small arm.

I'm sad to see carapace armor and camo cloaks gone. The modelling I've done to represent the stuff I've done isn't wasted, because it makes my army look more flavorful and interesting than just more Cadians. And you really don't NEED carapace armor nowadays. At least not like you did before. You had to take it to give yourself a save against bolters. Sure it improved your save also, but you went from no save to 4+ save for points. Now you're going from no save to 5+ save for free, armywide. IG got tremendously buffed by the new edition in just about any way you can name more than most other armies.

What exactly is your issue with Primaris? That they're sneaking in a scale change disguised as a new unit? They've been scale creeping space marines for decades now. This is just the most overt one and the first time I'm aware of that they've done it in rules. I guess maybe that's something, but it doesn't really affect me. I've got some SM, but I'm totes happy with saying "oh yeah, they're all primaris" if I want to play primaris. It's a game of mandollies. No reason to get worked up about it.

And for the record, everyone got hit with the lack of options. I can't feel nearly as bad for IG players as I do for inquisition players. The running hope is that all the cool little stuff might come back in the codex. No one knows what those will look like until the first couple drop.

The baneblade/leman russ thing doesn't make a lot of sense, but I kinda feel like they tried to go with balance over common sense, particularly when you look at some of the other over simplified things like terrain and the like. It was kind of inevitable that they gave the Russ SOMETHING anyway, because when you normalize baneblades, the Russ quickly becomes overlooked (Like it is, even now). If anything, the superheavies needed more drawbacks, but I'm okay with it, because I like my top tier Stormlord.

I feel like you seem very angry. Maybe you should relax a little. Maybe take a walk and go bird watching for a while or something.

 General Orange wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

Oh for Emprar's sake. You make ME look like an optimist, and that really takes some doing. You're really going to complain that underpowered units were made useful? What on earth makes you think that that is a bad thing? Every new edition has its ups and downs, and 8e is undeniably the most balanced edition for decades.

This has nothing to do with little timmy's space marines.

This has nothing to do with trying to screw the guard.

This has everything to do with EVERYONE being in the same damn boat beta testing a radically new edition that has not yet settled.

wow does dakka dakka has some dort of idea filter ? I am not complaining about how underpowered unit got, thank god, useful, it's how geedubs made them intentionally bad for whole editions and then made them good. Was there a guy at geedubs who said "yeah this all great and that but we need to make them bad" see RR, ogryns, bullgryns, ratlings. Did they finally change some more competent staff ?

I am happy with my index, but feels like 6th and 7th edition got totally wasted with bad units in general without any apparent reasons since they made the effort of actually improving this damn game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
If you're leaving, can I have your models?

The indexes in general are almost entirely bereft of wargear, so every army has a laundry list of options that they hope the codex will bring back. Except the Necrons, who are just like "what are options?"

But even without those, IG is on the strongest footing it's been on since 5th. Especially with Forge World giving them access to full re-roll bubbles, +1 to hit bubbles, and knockoff markerlights.

if the offer is good enough maybe.

So you're happy with your index, but you're mad because 6th and 7th guard wasn't very good...but now that it is good, you're complaining about losing options...except that you gained options because previously bad units are good... my head is spinning here.

Are you mad because your guard army contains nothing but camo netting/dozer blade wyverns? Leman Russ Vanquishers? Because those are pretty much the only vehicles that aren't stronger now than they used to be. I am sorry that we lost a couple kitbash-only options for vehicles and veterans. Maybe you can take your pains-takingly converted carapace veterans and run them as Militarum Tempestus, where they have the same options and perform better than carapace vets ever did. And maybe you could take your camo vets and run them as Cult Ambushing Neophytes, where they have the same options and perform better than camo vets ever did. If you're willing to put in the hours to make the model fit the rules, why not put in the minutes to make the rules fit the model?

The only post in this thread that meme works for is the very first post.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

And nobody bitches more than people bitching about the bitchers.

I don't know. The people bitching about the people bitching about the bitchers are really strong this year. I think you guys might have the edge!

We need to go deeper!

BITCHCEPTION

BRAAAAAAAAMMM!!!

RULE #1 - BE POLITE.

RULE #2 - STAY ON TOPIC.

RULE #3 - NO SPAM.

I see all three taking a beating in this thread.

IF you don't have something constructive to add, NOT posting is a SOLID option.

the_scotsman wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

Oh for Emprar's sake. You make ME look like an optimist, and that really takes some doing. You're really going to complain that underpowered units were made useful? What on earth makes you think that that is a bad thing? Every new edition has its ups and downs, and 8e is undeniably the most balanced edition for decades.

This has nothing to do with little timmy's space marines.

This has nothing to do with trying to screw the guard.

This has everything to do with EVERYONE being in the same damn boat beta testing a radically new edition that has not yet settled.

wow does dakka dakka has some dort of idea filter ? I am not complaining about how underpowered unit got, thank god, useful, it's how geedubs made them intentionally bad for whole editions and then made them good. Was there a guy at geedubs who said "yeah this all great and that but we need to make them bad" see RR, ogryns, bullgryns, ratlings. Did they finally change some more competent staff ?


I am happy with my index, but feels like 6th and 7th edition got totally wasted with bad units in general without any apparent reasons since they made the effort of actually improving this damn game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
If you're leaving, can I have your models?

The indexes in general are almost entirely bereft of wargear, so every army has a laundry list of options that they hope the codex will bring back. Except the Necrons, who are just like "what are options?"

But even without those, IG is on the strongest footing it's been on since 5th. Especially with Forge World giving them access to full re-roll bubbles, +1 to hit bubbles, and knockoff markerlights.

if the offer is good enough maybe.

So you're happy with your index, but you're mad because 6th and 7th guard wasn't very good...but now that it is good, you're complaining about losing options...except that you gained options because previously bad units are good... my head is spinning here.

Are you mad because your guard army contains nothing but camo netting/dozer blade wyverns? Leman Russ Vanquishers? Because those are pretty much the only vehicles that aren't stronger now than they used to be. I am sorry that we lost a couple kitbash-only options for vehicles and veterans. Maybe you can take your pains-takingly converted carapace veterans and run them as Militarum Tempestus, where they have the same options and perform better than carapace vets ever did. And maybe you could take your camo vets and run them as Cult Ambushing Neophytes, where they have the same options and perform better than camo vets ever did. If you're willing to put in the hours to make the model fit the rules, why not put in the minutes to make the rules fit the model?

I'm complaining on geedubs randomnes in making unit rules change without any justification. Good stuff became bad, and bad stuff became good arbitrarily. Do they have to respect some quotes on bad unit rules ? Do 300 units out of 1000 have to be bad just because they feel like it ?

 General Orange wrote:


I'm complaining on geedubs randomnes in making unit rules change without any justification. Good stuff became bad, and bad stuff became good arbitrarily. Do they have to respect some quotes on bad unit rules ? Do 300 units out of 1000 have to be bad just because they feel like it ?

Seems like perfectly good justification to nerf good things and buff bad things until it meets in the middle.

besides how "bad" are we talking. asides from like a few % difference in output nothing iv seen is straight up a dumpster fire besides like maybe 1-2 things.

In my humble opinion, the IG index list is actually a pretty flawed work. I think it masks it by having a handful of overtly and easily broken units that all work together really well, namely the conscripts & friends, scions, superheavies, and artillery. Big chunks of the book are much more questionable in terms of balance, but what's good in the list is really, really good.

Also, some of the options that were left out are odd, especially when you realize what was kept. For example, veterans can take shotguns, despite never being a model option on any kit. However, Vostroyans are still sold clearly wearing carapace armor. Yes, blob platoons would have been brutal with commissars... but that just means conscripts do the same thing in practice!

The orders system is finally simple and elegant, but they really aren't all that strong, with Get Back in the Fight and FRF/SRF the only ones that significantly add punch to you army.

don't get me wrong, I'm still happy with streamlined 40k, and since I had painted up a bunch of kasrkin this spring, I'm loving using them as scions. I just don't think the index list was particularly inspired.

 Desubot wrote:

 General Orange wrote:


I'm complaining on geedubs randomnes in making unit rules change without any justification. Good stuff became bad, and bad stuff became good arbitrarily. Do they have to respect some quotes on bad unit rules ? Do 300 units out of 1000 have to be bad just because they feel like it ?

Seems like perfectly good justification to nerf good things and buff bad things until it meets in the middle.

besides how "bad" are we talking. asides from like a few % difference in output nothing iv seen is straight up a dumpster fire besides like maybe 1-2 things.

well bad seems like the wrong term here, but choices like -1 to hit on baneblades, -1 to hit on mobile units like chimeras ,tauroxes, valks, sentinels lost outflank, no orders for auxilia etc... . But yeah, the guard index is more or less blessed with good units, only frustrates me that they needed aons to improve units from any army, it's like they only send half of the playtest results to the rule making department and call it a day. Rough riders waited editions to become useful for example and it only needed a special rule to make them useful, a few words, but noooo it is to much to ask geedubs to think rationally
This edition is same now globally with any army and with any precedent edition, it's like they don't want to make good armies with good rules, they balance by nerfing specific units and not globally, always on the look for another martyr like the battle sisters since they came out. It's like they force bad mechanics, and I don't know why they do this. Why remove weapon angles ? Did it take them to much ink to write it down ?

 General Orange wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 General Orange wrote:


I'm complaining on geedubs randomnes in making unit rules change without any justification. Good stuff became bad, and bad stuff became good arbitrarily. Do they have to respect some quotes on bad unit rules ? Do 300 units out of 1000 have to be bad just because they feel like it ?

Seems like perfectly good justification to nerf good things and buff bad things until it meets in the middle.

besides how "bad" are we talking. asides from like a few % difference in output nothing iv seen is straight up a dumpster fire besides like maybe 1-2 things.

well bad seems like the wrong term here, but choices like -1 to hit on baneblades, -1 to hit on mobile units like chimeras ,tauroxes, valks, sentinels lost outflank, no orders for auxilia etc... . But yeah, the guard index is more or less blessed with good units, only frustrates me that they needed aons to improve units from any army, it's like they only send half of the playtest results to the rule making department and call it a day. Rough riders waited editions to become useful for example and it only needed a special rule to make them useful, a few words, but noooo it is to much to ask geedubs to think rationally
This edition is same now globally with any army and with any precedent edition, it's like they don't want to make good armies with good rules, they balance by nerfing specific units and not globally, always on the look for another martyr like the battle sisters since they came out. It's like they force bad mechanics, and I don't know why they do this. Why remove weapon angles ? Did it take them to much ink to write it down ?

The -1 to hit for moving happend to everyone

everyone besides some very relic level things like land raiders which already cost an arm and a leg.

predators, rhinos, assbacks all suffer -1 to hit when moving. making it a a choice to move or not.

im really not understanding your position. like whats so bad about RR, what did you want them to add?

Nerfing an army globally doesnt fix anything especially if internally their army isnt balanced. it makes good things bad and bad things worse.

weapon angles going away is kinda meh but it speeds up the game. the game is already an abstraction.

Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.

For those not in thek now, 3rd edition was a similar (but honestly larger) reboot from 2nd edition. Instead of indexes (because there were less armies and models - though some of both were squatted) the army info was in the back of the BRB itself.. And holy moly was it barebones. As basic as you can imagine, in an age where things were generally pretty basic to begin with!

The current indexes are temporary, there's no reason to blow up over details lost. Furthermore, they're very far from 'as bad as it can get' judging by history.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.

For those not in thek now, 3rd edition was a similar (but honestly larger) reboot from 2nd edition. Instead of indexes (because there were less armies and models - though some of both were squatted) the army info was in the back of the BRB itself.. And holy moly was it barebones. As basic as you can imagine, in an age where things were generally pretty basic to begin with!

The current indexes are temporary, there's no reason to blow up over details lost. Furthermore, they're very far from 'as bad as it can get' judging by history.

I think I still own one somewhere, if I recall weren't almost all the weapons for all the factions based on imperial equipment? Even for alien races like eldar? That was also back when the dark eldar looked nothing like their current incarnation if I recall.

 General Orange wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

TonyL707 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.

Did you really just complain that some of your previously useless units got better?!

Hmm, baffles me, can't you understand a simple phrase ? I complain how geedubs does it everytime. New models comes out with bad rules, nobody gonna buy them, geedubs sees this, and decides to buff them with formation and/or new edition because of the money, or bad rule making.

Don't think I don't appreciate the new units, but it sure is to sell more. Question is why didn't they make actual good rules in the first place ?

Because not every unit is going to end up well enough, but the idea is your complaining because they buffed a bad unit because they should've been perfect the first time. What?

You know this isn't poilitcs geedubs does here, why is it too much asked for to have decent rules, giving rough riders scout in 7th was too much to ask for ? Did they had a shortage of ink to write "scout " or "outflank" ? A unit should not be perfect, you don't get the point, why does it it take geedubs several editions to make a decent unit while other tabletops only need one shot ?

What game makes every single unit usable and/or perfect the first time around? Because I seriously would love to know the answer to this.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.

Yup. Amazingly, the spine isn't even cracked and the pages are still attached! I never laid it flat.

BRB 3E was the best 40k rules + armies - simple and balanced.

Anyhow, getting back to the OP, I've spent what I've spent, so all of my toys are sunk cost, whether I play them or shelve them. Units being shelved isn't anything new.

It's almost too bad that Codices are coming to wreck 8E.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

TonyL707 wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.

Did you really just complain that some of your previously useless units got better?!

Hmm, baffles me, can't you understand a simple phrase ? I complain how geedubs does it everytime. New models comes out with bad rules, nobody gonna buy them, geedubs sees this, and decides to buff them with formation and/or new edition because of the money, or bad rule making.

Don't think I don't appreciate the new units, but it sure is to sell more. Question is why didn't they make actual good rules in the first place ?

Because not every unit is going to end up well enough, but the idea is your complaining because they buffed a bad unit because they should've been perfect the first time. What?

You know this isn't poilitcs geedubs does here, why is it too much asked for to have decent rules, giving rough riders scout in 7th was too much to ask for ? Did they had a shortage of ink to write "scout " or "outflank" ? A unit should not be perfect, you don't get the point, why does it it take geedubs several editions to make a decent unit while other tabletops only need one shot ?

What game makes every single unit usable and/or perfect the first time around? Because I seriously would love to know the answer to this.

X wing from what I have played. Test of honour is pretty balanced with good units overall too,but yeah only from what I experienced, but hey, geedubs isn't the only tabletop out there right ?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.

Yup. Amazingly, the spine isn't even cracked and the pages are still attached! I never laid it flat.

BRB 3E was the best 40k rules + armies - simple and balanced.

Anyhow, getting back to the OP, I've spent what I've spent, so all of my toys are sunk cost, whether I play them or shelve them. Units being shelved isn't anything new.

It's almost too bad that Codices are coming to wreck 8E.

Well, the new codices might actually alleviate the issue the OP has, so that is one pro. The other being the indices for some armies are frightfully boring. Most armies imo, I'm looking forward to expanded options.

 Polonius wrote:


Also, some of the options that were left out are odd, especially when you realize what was kept. For example, veterans can take shotguns, despite never being a model option on any kit. However, Vostroyans are still sold clearly wearing carapace armor.

Forgeworld used to do shotgun vets and voystroyans do not wear carapace. (they're all chest armour and shoulder pads - carapace models have armour on the arms and thighs)

X wing from what I have played. Test of honour is pretty balanced with good units overall too,but yeah only from what I experienced, but hey, geedubs isn't the only tabletop out there right ?

...Really not even close, hoo boy. Get into competitive and you'll realize just how many useless options and ships there are in existence.

But yes I know GW (really, geedubs?) isn't the only tabletop out there, because I've played a fair few and wonder what systems have actually managed to attain 100% "All these units are usable no matter the situation". I'm just curious what Tabletop game you've played where every single unit has been perfectly balanced. Malifax? Warmahordes? Infinity? Flames of War? Heroclix? Battletech? Imperial Assault?

Now what Tabletop game has near 100% unit parity when it comes to balance I wonder.

It's not really all that bad. Squads now get buffed by things like Commissar auras so you don't need them to be combined (in fact they'll take less casualties overall this way), the only downside being that you won't have 30 ablative wounds for your special weps and heavy weps

RE Vets, just go through the forums to see how universally crapped on all the doctrines were at one point or another. By the end of 7th carapace armor was the only good one, which means that Scions are a perfectly good stand in.

So many other units got better/playable now due to the overall rules shifts. A few units got nerfed but on balance we're a lot better off than the last edition.

On paper I can't think of any unit I don't like other than Ogryns and Bullgryns, which were always bad since the 3rd edition came out (should have gone up to 5 wounds considering their cost but hey, that's why we're waiting for the Codex to come out!)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

X wing from what I have played. Test of honour is pretty balanced with good units overall too,but yeah only from what I experienced, but hey, geedubs isn't the only tabletop out there right ?

...Really not even close, hoo boy. Get into competitive and you'll realize just how many useless options and ships there are in existence.

But yes I know GW (really, geedubs?) isn't the only tabletop out there, because I've played a fair few and wonder what systems have actually managed to attain 100% "All these units are usable no matter the situation". I'm just curious what Tabletop game you've played where every single unit has been perfectly balanced. Malifax? Warmahordes? Infinity? Flames of War? Heroclix? Battletech? Imperial Assault?

Now what Tabletop game has near 100% unit parity when it comes to balance I wonder.

Chess, though it does still struggle to deal with balancing first-turn advantage.

Now, I will say this: there's nothing wrong with wanting more balance or trying to figure out a way to get it. But raging, making I Quit threads, railing against Bush 43, or standing on the street corner with "THE END IS NIGH" scrawled on a piece of cardboard won't go anywhere productive. Though that last option might get you some pocket change from passing pedestrians.

Theorycraft, brainstorm, propose tweaks, sure. Just do so in a calm, thoughtful manner and keep in mind that nobody is necessarily obligated to agree. And in the meantime, make the best of what you've got.

 General Orange wrote:

X wing from what I have played. Test of honour is pretty balanced with good units overall too,but yeah only from what I experienced, but hey, geedubs isn't the only tabletop out there right ?

The starter for X wing was pretty lopsided toward the Imperials from what I recall from a few years ago. The FoW one was too, though I can't remember in which direction as that was even further back. Warmachine was just silly as far as the balance between starters went. I don't think I saw the Cygnar one lose in the four games we played between different people and swapping sides around each time. I never went far beyond the starters in any of those because my group couldn't get past the painful one-sdiedness of the armies out of the gate.

On the other hand, Malifaux seemed really genuinely good (and fun) when I played it last Gencon. I'd love to get into that, but I barely have time to keep up with different games as is. Infinity is strong too, but the guys I know that play it tell me it's because what happens on the table is far more complex and important than what you make your list out of, so there's more focus on your actions and less on your composition.

That's been about my experience with miniature games. All things considered, if I could do it again, I probably would have gone with Malifaux, but I'm still pretty happy here with 8th, all things considered.

SilverAlien wrote:


I think I still own one somewhere, if I recall weren't almost all the weapons for all the factions based on imperial equipment? Even for alien races like eldar? That was also back when the dark eldar looked nothing like their current incarnation if I recall.

Yup. Eldar, dark and otherwise, had lascannons, chainswords, and plasma guns. Orks had missle launchers (I think?), chainswords, and powerfists. The Chaos 'army list' was literally copy > pasting the marine list, adding a unit of demons, and then 1 cult marine for each god.

Also, let us none forget the horror of old school stealers. WS6, str 4, I6, 3 attacks, ignore all armor saves period, rolling 6 on armor penetration scored an immediate penetrating hit on vehicles.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


Also, some of the options that were left out are odd, especially when you realize what was kept. For example, veterans can take shotguns, despite never being a model option on any kit. However, Vostroyans are still sold clearly wearing carapace armor.

Forgeworld used to do shotgun vets and voystroyans do not wear carapace. (they're all chest armour and shoulder pads - carapace models have armour on the arms and thighs)

Forgeworld options are usually in the forgeworld book though, right? If there were rules for shotgun vets in the FW index, I'd be down, but putting them in the main index, but not, say, the Vendetta? That's just odd.

The Vostroyans might not wear a complete suit of carapace, but their armor is clearly closer to carapace than to flak armor. Outside of Stormtroopers, few models in the IG range have more than the breastplate, even when positively identified as wearing carapace armor (col Shaffer, kell, creed, yarrik) They also had carapace armor as the suggested doctrines when they came out, back when you could buy carapace for a full army.

Far as shotguns go, there was that one old Cadian fat sergeant model with the shotgun.

Unfortunately, I struggle to find a picture at this time.

 daedalus wrote:
Far as shotguns go, there was that one old Cadian fat sergeant model with the shotgun.

Unfortunately, I struggle to find a picture at this time.

Yeah, that was a great model. Lower right hand corner:



I mean, back in the day you could take shotguns instead of CCW/LP on your sergeants, I now that was a keenly felt loss at one point.

How is the voystrayn armour closer to carapace? Its chest armour (mostly chain mail) and shoulder pads. Some are also wearing elbow pads but that's hardly carapace armor.

The shotgun thing is a bit odd. The option was introduced into the regular IG codex, FW layer offered models for it and its somehow stuck.

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2014/8/11/637479_md-Cadians%2C%20Retro.JPG

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Cadian-Hardened-Veterans-with-Shotguns-Upgrade-Pack

Here you go!

The reason why FW did the veterans with shotguns conversion kit, probably has to do with FW having been set up originally to produce stuff for IG and fill in the gaps. Some of FW's designs were carried over and some were remade into plastic kits, like the Hydra.

SilverAlien wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.

Yup. Amazingly, the spine isn't even cracked and the pages are still attached! I never laid it flat.

BRB 3E was the best 40k rules + armies - simple and balanced.

Anyhow, getting back to the OP, I've spent what I've spent, so all of my toys are sunk cost, whether I play them or shelve them. Units being shelved isn't anything new.

It's almost too bad that Codices are coming to wreck 8E.

Well, the new codices might actually alleviate the issue the OP has, so that is one pro. The other being the indices for some armies are frightfully boring. Most armies imo, I'm looking forward to expanded options.

To be fair, the 3rd edition codexes weren't all that inspired either in the beginning. The 3rd Ed SM codex is even more stripped down than the index we have now. No FoC shenanigans, Force Commanders and Chaplains were just normal marines with better stats (and fancier starting gear in the case of the Chaplain), and other than ATSKNF, the only real special rules the models had were Infiltrate, Deepstrike and the occasional "reroll this specific thing", and they weren't even available army wide; only on specific units (and drop pods didn't exist). I think it wasn't until the Tyranid Codex that Codexes started getting some really interesting stuff, like Regimental Doctrines, Legion rules, the Mutation table, etc. Granted, we also had Chapter Approved back then to give something else, but the base codex and rules were pretty bland.

However the Regimental rules are what I really miss. They gave the Guard some character, even if they weren't really all that useful competitively (although I did get thrashed by someone using the Sharpshooter doctrine with Carapace Armor.)

 Scott-S6 wrote:
How is the voystrayn armour closer to carapace? Its chest armour (mostly chain mail) and shoulder pads. Some are also wearing elbow pads but that's hardly carapace armor.

I think we might be discussing two different concepts. You are discussing the carapace armor as being essentially a sci-fi suit of armor, non-powered space platemail. I'm using carapace armor for any sort of armor that provides the IG a 4+ save. If you look at Creed, he's barely wearing flak armor, but he has a 4+ save:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Lord-Castellan-Creed

Kell is wearing something closer to what the kasrkin wear:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Colour-Sergeant-Kell

Most tellingly, Lord Commissars have a 4+ save (which in the old codex was explicitly called carapace armor). If you look at the model, he's wearing... a breast plate:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Lord-Commissar

I think that the key feature between flak armor and carapace is the breastplate. Keep in mind that under GW logic, even catachans are wearing flak armor, so we know there's some flexibility.

Clearly Catachans get their +5 save from their abs.

According to the Warhammer Wikia, Carapace Armor can be anything from just a few sets of chest armor, pads and gloves to full on platemail suits of armor. The only thing that separates Carapace Armor from Flak Armor is:

1.) Carapace Armor is generally thicker and more protective regardless of the piece.
2.) it's more expensive (it's to Flak armor what Artificer Armor is to Power Armor)
3.) It *generally* comes with more pieces than Flak Armor.

Note that the old metal Stormtroopers (not the Kasrkins, the derpy ones) look like they have even less "hard" armor on them, but are wearing carapace armor nonetheless. Then again Catachans go into battle with just their biceps and jeans and that's somehow Flak Armor.

You guys are making too much of what is and isn't modeled as "carapace" / Sv 4+.

Sv 5+ Cadians have a an armored breastplate.

The only good Imperial Stormtrooper models ever produced have layered aramid with armored ceramic/Chobham inserts for their Sv 4+.
Totally fething badass.

Conclusion, it's the Rule of Cool that determines whether a model is Sv4+ or Sv5+.

 Polonius wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
How is the voystrayn armour closer to carapace? Its chest armour (mostly chain mail) and shoulder pads. Some are also wearing elbow pads but that's hardly carapace armor.

I think we might be discussing two different concepts. You are discussing the carapace armor as being essentially a sci-fi suit of armor, non-powered space platemail. I'm using carapace armor for any sort of armor that provides the IG a 4+ save. If you look at Creed, he's barely wearing flak armor, but he has a 4+ save:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Lord-Castellan-Creed

Kell is wearing something closer to what the kasrkin wear:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Colour-Sergeant-Kell

Most tellingly, Lord Commissars have a 4+ save (which in the old codex was explicitly called carapace armor). If you look at the model, he's wearing... a breast plate:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Lord-Commissar

I think that the key feature between flak armor and carapace is the breastplate. Keep in mind that under GW logic, even catachans are wearing flak armor, so we know there's some flexibility.

If you look at all of the troops wearing carapace (scions, karskins) you'll see that they're significantly more armoured. I'm not sure that a few character models are the best exemplars.

Also, most voystroyans appear to be wearing some sort of chain mail, not a breast plate.

If we're going to say that a rigid breast plate is carapace then how is that different to cadian flak armour?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You guys are making too much of what is and isn't modeled as "carapace" / Sv 4+.

Sv 5+ Cadians have a an armored breastplate.

The only good Imperial Stormtrooper models ever produced have layered aramid with armored ceramic/Chobham inserts for their Sv 4+.
Totally fething badass.

Conclusion, it's the Rule of Cool that determines whether a model is Sv4+ or Sv5+.

This conversation is much more interesting than OP's nonsense.

This thread = When you don't really understand how the game works at all, but still have to make a thread whining about it anyway due to your loss

techsoldaten wrote:A guy at my FLGS spent about $4k on his Renegades and Heretics army. Beautiful to see, mostly Forgeworld models. Took him almost 2 years to complete. He's played it for maybe 6 months.

The Codex better be good, he's not enjoying 8th at all. All that work for a game where the principle activity is removing his models from the board and mumbling "I have no counter for that."

Sounds like your buddy needs to get gud. If that's how he plays the game, he's blaming it for his own mistakes so I can only laugh.

 SHUPPET wrote:
This thread = When you don't really understand how the game works at all, but still have to make a thread whining about it anyway due to your loss

techsoldaten wrote:A guy at my FLGS spent about $4k on his Renegades and Heretics army. Beautiful to see, mostly Forgeworld models. Took him almost 2 years to complete. He's played it for maybe 6 months.

The Codex better be good, he's not enjoying 8th at all. All that work for a game where the principle activity is removing his models from the board and mumbling "I have no counter for that."

Sounds like your buddy needs to get gud. If that's how he plays the game, he's blaming it for his own mistakes so I can only laugh.

Have you seen the R&H list? It's an embarrassment and I honestly feel sorry for anyone who's put time into painting an army. It's at best a way for other chaos factions to poach some cheap psykers, you simply can't run Renegades as an army unto itself right now.

People using 'dumb down' when describing a game-wide reboot and the associated temporary army lists are [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express yourself. - Alpharius].

 Polonius wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
How is the voystrayn armour closer to carapace? Its chest armour (mostly chain mail) and shoulder pads. Some are also wearing elbow pads but that's hardly carapace armor.

I think we might be discussing two different concepts. You are discussing the carapace armor as being essentially a sci-fi suit of armor, non-powered space platemail. I'm using carapace armor for any sort of armor that provides the IG a 4+ save. If you look at Creed, he's barely wearing flak armor, but he has a 4+ save:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Lord-Castellan-Creed

Kell is wearing something closer to what the kasrkin wear:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Colour-Sergeant-Kell

Most tellingly, Lord Commissars have a 4+ save (which in the old codex was explicitly called carapace armor). If you look at the model, he's wearing... a breast plate:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Lord-Commissar

I think that the key feature between flak armor and carapace is the breastplate. Keep in mind that under GW logic, even catachans are wearing flak armor, so we know there's some flexibility.

This. My DKoK Engineers, Grenadiers, officers and cavalrymen only get upper body armour, and that has always been defined as carapace in the books. That's also the case with the 90's guardsmen, the officer models typically wear a metal torso armour, which is described as carapace armour in the rules. Armour has never really been WYSIWYG with IG, and it typically varies from one faction to another how flak and carapace armour are depicted on the models. Cadians are really on the extreme end of the scale as to what constitutes flak armour.

I'm a 2nd ed veteran. I have felt that "modern" Imperial Guard armies had lacked the character of what the IG was all about. Seeing IG armies that were small, buffed up troops.. pretty much playing like the "little Kevin" you refer to.
So dry your eyes, form line and take aim!
You're in the Guard son!

I actually appreciate the lack of options for now, though I assume some of them will be back in the Codex. The reason is that it allows me to model my vehicles however I want them to look without having to worry about WYSIWYG questions and paying points for upgrades that may not be useful but look good on the vehicle.

 General Orange wrote:
Veterans lost doctrines, no vehicle options. How much effort did we all lose just to dumb down an army so little Kevin's space marines don't get rofl stomped ? So geedubs can sell a 20 dollar expansion ?

Hours you'll never get back, hours spend using greenstuff to make those camo plate carapace plates on your vets, money wasted by buying those bulldozer blades, hours of searching melta bombs for your sergeants. Money, effort wasted to respect the wysiwyg, for what in the end ?

Was it to much asked to get a +1 on your save having those camo nets, gear, carapace armour ? Having a source for meltabombs ? Was there an ink limit ? A fun limit ?

Does geedubs take a book of physical laws and says "we will base this s**t edition from page 1 to 152 and forget the last 23 chapters"

Does geedubs say at their meeting stuff like "make it good, but not too good, we don't want to have an edition so good we don't need to update it with new armies, new space marines, new rules books, so no one needs to buy the same recycles stuff they already have. Btw great idea Steve you fedora wearing ratling penetrator producing those Primaris, we will just make up an ogryn turd height of fluff, and say that they are totally not normal space marines, and people still gonna buy them to build the exact same army they already so they have the satisfaction of true scale marines. But we gonna say them that they don't need to buy a new army, but like that, it is going to grow in the back of their heads, having true scale marines, not the same height as the gorilla looking cadians while playing, in the end they gonna start collecting and see how great the new models are"

Playing warhammer and dealing with geedubs looks more like an abusive relationship at best between customers and a money hungry company.

I really love the new edition, but they left out WITHOUT ANY REASONS THE OTHER HALF OF THE LOGIC IN THIS GAME. WHAT BANEBLADE GETS -1 TO HIT WHILE MOVING BUT THE RUSS DOESN'T ???!!!

PLATOONS GONE, OH YEAH BECAUSE THE VOICE OF THE PLATOON COMMANDER CAN ONLY BE HEARD SQUAD BY SQUAD NOW HUH ?!

HUMAN REPRESENTATIVES CAN'T STICK THEY GOD DAMN HEAD OUT THE RAMP OF A CHIMERA ?! DID THE MECHANICUS FINALLY ODed ON LIGHTER FLUIDS ??

geedubs, hope you goin bankrupt

garage hammer and house rules all the way !

Please tell me how a top 3 across the board sucks. you know what your problem is? You're a crybaby. Pure and simple. My Death Korps are a viable standalone army for the first time since the models hit the shelves. Veterans were never meant to be the bulk of your force, they're veterans. Chimeras were never meant to be spammed, Nothing was, save for two point conscripts, because fluffy. OH GOD, 8TH EDITIONS ISNT THE REVILED 7TH, WHY CAN'T I HAVE MY CAKE AND EAT IT TOO, I JUST WANT TO HAVE /MY/ LIST BE TOP 2, NOTHING SHOULD CHANGE ABOUT WHAT I DO, GW NEEDS TO REVOLVE THEIR EDITIONS AROUND ME! grow up. grow the absolute hell up.

This is why no one uses Dakka anymore and Dakka users have the worst reputation on the internet.

Nothing made you buy the compendiums. In fact they were free to look at in store before purchase.

And Astra Militarism codex is set for release quite quickly.

Not sure why the OP is complaining. Quite literally the things GW has done in the past that was worth complaining about, they don't do anymore. The books aren't expensive, the rules are decently balanced, and there are regular updates, the models have lots of different price points and deals, they also have community feedback.

 dsteingass wrote:
This is why no one uses Dakka anymore and Dakka users have the worst reputation on the internet.

Ya, I just joined recently because I haven't played 40k in years. Dakka dakka just seems like another whineseer..
Looks like I'll be finding another forum soon. ....but perhaps 40k just attracts more of these types.

Considering you neither played Squats (40k) or Brettonia (WHF) I don't see what all the fuss is about...

The Codex isn't out yet, which GW has explained will be the official rules for your army which means indexes are moot once your Codex drops.

Greenstuffing... WYSIWYG... that's a personal choice. Your models only represent what your units look like. You could play with just chess peices and cardboard cut outs and most casual players wouldn't care. The fact you're whining about how much time and effort you put into a hobby and GW took it away just shows you have no idea what a hobby actually is. A hobby, for all intents and purposes, is a time, effort, and money sink. You enjoyed it while you had it, time to move on. God forbid 40k stops being a thing, then we'll have "GW made my models worthless by ending 40k!!" threads out the wazoo.

 dsteingass wrote:
This is why no one uses Dakka anymore and Dakka users have the worst reputation on the internet.

I don't really see how any forum could respond to the idiocy that was the OP with much less vitriol. Hell, a fair amount of users are trying to help and explain the intricacies the OP has missed about 8th ed.

Judge us by the OT or fluff sections if you must, D, but this thread practically BEGS for scorn.

Dakka was built on Gigabytes of vitriol and bitching about GW, You can make your point about rules without being a complete and total douche. Better yet, just scroll on past things that you dont like, like adults do.

But since I've obviously not learned my lesson to stay in P&M,
"Chimeras aren't meant to be spammed" yes, they are and have been since 3rd edition, if you want your squad to move anywhere. Space Marines are not meant to outnumber guard, yet they do, in product, releases, re-releases, re-issues, re-re-re special editions, Starter sets, players, and the Black LIbrary novels so your fluff argument is moot.

 General Orange wrote:

Gw making balanced game ? Good joke. So we can't point out flaws line, uhhh, oh my favorite, weapons angles gone ? Do we have to imagine that the leman russ tokyo drifted a 360 turn so he can shoot behind ?

The Geneseed of the lesser known Primarch Paul Walker is in all of the drivers for my Blood Angels' vehicles. Sanguinius and Paul used to race bikes and speeders together, Paul had the records of his Legion expunged and destroyed so that they could drive together for eternity through their now shared Chapter...