An extra 2 attacks per berserker - and they were already amazing. Wowwwwww. Chain axes are definitely the go to pick now. Edit: that's 8 s5 attacks each (chainsword). 10 for the champion.
For 3 cp, a berserker unit could fight 3 times. Thats just ludicrous.
Lancelot185 wrote: An extra 2 attacks per berserker - and they were already amazing. Wowwwwww. Chain axes are definitely the go to pick now. Edit: that's 8 s5 attacks each (chainsword). 10 for the champion.
As an aside, you don't have to choose between chain axe and chain sword. You can have both as long as you don't want a pistol.
It's even BETTER actually. The Crimson Slaughter booklet that was given out for the update Dark Vengeance rules has a sneak at the Exalted Champion rules.
Guess what they do?
They make legion units within 6" of them reroll wounds during the Fight phase.
1CP to Deny ANY power on a 4+, regardless of who was casting, is gonna be very very good against psyker heavy armies.
Kharn is going to be amazing vs Tyranid armies, or anything with lots of characters.
Berserkers are going to be seriously vying for the Platinum trophy in "Which Unit Can Absolutely Obliter-nnihilate Any Other Unit" competition. Going by Lancelot's breakdown, that's a very very real potential of 246 Str 5 attacks, hitting on 3+ and wounding most things on a 5+ at worst. Per turn. (Calculations not taking casualties into account). That sort of dice rolling puts an Ork shooting phase to shame.
Arkaine wrote: It's even BETTER actually. The Crimson Slaughter booklet that was given out for the update Dark Vengeance rules has a sneak at the Exalted Champion rules.
Guess what they do?
They make legion units within 6" of them reroll wounds during the Fight phase.
There will be blood. For the blood god.
18 berserkers (3 units), exalted champion and dark apostle in a kharybdis. 150 s5 attacks from the berserkers, rerolling hits and wounds. I can see berserkers becoming chaos' ultimate cheese.
So lemme get this straight. Assuming berserkers don't change, they:
Have 2 attacks base
can get another 2 attacks via two chainswords
get +1 when they charge
fight twice in the assault phase due to their own rules
then fight again if you spend the CP?
Arkaine wrote: It's even BETTER actually. The Crimson Slaughter booklet that was given out for the update Dark Vengeance rules has a sneak at the Exalted Champion rules.
Guess what they do?
They make legion units within 6" of them reroll wounds during the Fight phase.
There will be blood. For the blood god.
18 berserkers (3 units), exalted champion and dark apostle in a kharybdis. 150 s5 attacks from the berserkers, rerolling hits and wounds. I can see berserkers becoming chaos' ultimate cheese.
Yep, lots of S5 attacks. Now calculate the S4 ones too.
18 Berserkers (3 units) with Chainaxe + Chainsword = 3 attacks for each of the 15 berserkers, 4 for each of the 3 champions.
On the charge it's +1 per model. 4 per zerker, 5 per champ.
Multiplied by 3 swings (fights twice, fights AGAIN at the end of phase)
75*3 = 225 attacks..... Rerolling everything.
And that's not counting any of the Exalted Champion's or Dark Apostle's combat capabilities.
Arkaine wrote: It's even BETTER actually. The Crimson Slaughter booklet that was given out for the update Dark Vengeance rules has a sneak at the Exalted Champion rules.
Guess what they do?
They make legion units within 6" of them reroll wounds during the Fight phase.
There will be blood. For the blood god.
18 berserkers (3 units), exalted champion and dark apostle in a kharybdis. 150 s5 attacks from the berserkers, rerolling hits and wounds. I can see berserkers becoming chaos' ultimate cheese.
Yep, lots of S5 attacks. Now calculate the S4 ones too.
18 Berserkers (3 units) with Chainaxe + Chainsword = 3 attacks for each of the 15 berserkers, 4 for each of the 3 champions.
On the charge it's +1 per model. 4 per zerker, 5 per champ.
Multiplied by 3 swings (fights twice, fights AGAIN at the end of phase)
75*3 = 225 attacks..... Rerolling everything.
And that's not counting any of the Exalted Champion's or Dark Apostle's combat capabilities.
They don't have s4 attacks. S5 is chainswords, s6 is chainaxes.
What are you guys' thoughts on a storm eagle for transporting them? Guaranteed turn 2 charge (assuming it doesnt get destroyed - it's quite durable though). And can take 20.
Have 2 attacks base
can get another 2 attacks via two chainswords
get +1 when they charge
fight twice in the assault phase due to their own rules
then fight again if you spend the CP?
That's 15 attacks out of ONE model in one turn.
Man, all those 2000pts units better watch out.
There gets a point where the amount of attacks a unit puts out becomes redundant. Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks? Not to mention 3cps is A LOT. Which I'm noticing is something people keep forgetting with these Stratagems.
Have 2 attacks base
can get another 2 attacks via two chainswords
get +1 when they charge
fight twice in the assault phase due to their own rules
then fight again if you spend the CP?
That's 15 attacks out of ONE model in one turn.
Man, all those 2000pts units better watch out.
There gets a point where the amount of attacks a unit puts out becomes redundant. Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks? Not to mention 3cps is A LOT. Which I'm noticing is something people keep forgetting with these Stratagems.
When you're attacking tough units, or massive blobs (conscripts etc). You can also charge multiple units, and pile in after wiping one, and then attack the next one in the same phase. So, more attacks gives you far more versatility.
even without the extra fight phase, a mere 6 berserkers stands a good chance of completely wiping out a conscript squad in 1 turn of combat through pure wounds. that is pretty insane.
Have 2 attacks base
can get another 2 attacks via two chainswords
get +1 when they charge
fight twice in the assault phase due to their own rules
then fight again if you spend the CP?
That's 15 attacks out of ONE model in one turn.
Man, all those 2000pts units better watch out.
There gets a point where the amount of attacks a unit puts out becomes redundant. Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks? Not to mention 3cps is A LOT. Which I'm noticing is something people keep forgetting with these Stratagems.
When you're attacking tough units, or massive blobs (conscripts etc). You can also charge multiple units, and pile in after wiping one, and then attack the next one in the same phase. So, more attacks gives you far more versatility.
I agree with stuff like tough units, but then its one turn of glory. As to your other points you're applying that "oppenent stands there in a perfect line waiting for death" thinking that shed this in a good light.
You know where the Berzerkers are. Your models are not stationary. Why are you lining up in such a way that allows them to just plough through your lines and just standing there while they come towards you?
Marmatag wrote: The moral of the story is to charge the Berzerkers first, I guess.
Or just shoot them till they stop moving.
also its 3cp for the extra extra extra attack fight phases. dunno how many CP chaos can get at 2k or whatever but it shouldn't be that bad or tooooo often. at minimum they get to do it once.
Have 2 attacks base
can get another 2 attacks via two chainswords
get +1 when they charge
fight twice in the assault phase due to their own rules
then fight again if you spend the CP?
That's 15 attacks out of ONE model in one turn.
Man, all those 2000pts units better watch out.
There gets a point where the amount of attacks a unit puts out becomes redundant. Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks? Not to mention 3cps is A LOT. Which I'm noticing is something people keep forgetting with these Stratagems.
When you're attacking tough units, or massive blobs (conscripts etc). You can also charge multiple units, and pile in after wiping one, and then attack the next one in the same phase. So, more attacks gives you far more versatility.
I agree with stuff like tough units, but then its one turn of glory. As to your other points you're applying that "oppenent stands there in a perfect line waiting for death" thinking that shed this in a good light.
You know where the Berzerkers are. Your models are not stationary. Why are you lining up in such a way that allows them to just plough through your lines and just standing there while they come towards you?
My point was that more attacks gives you more versatility. That's irrefutable. Should you see two units close together (perhaps it's a tough HQ, or whatever), you have the option to charge both and make good use of your extra attacks. Sure, sometimes they'll overkill units, but, I'd rather have greater damage potential, at the irrelevant cost of overkill.
Sim-Life wrote: There gets a point where the amount of attacks a unit puts out becomes redundant. Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks? Not to mention 3cps is A LOT. Which I'm noticing is something people keep forgetting with these Stratagems.
What's better? Spending 3 CP on rerolls in the next turn or two? Or denying your opponent the use of half of his army by annihilating it right now? Those extra attacks can make the difference between a unit or tank surviving and not surviving, or eliminate even more squads that were just planning on shooting you later.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: even without the extra fight phase, a mere 6 berserkers stands a good chance of completely wiping out a conscript squad in 1 turn of combat through pure wounds. that is pretty insane.
Even easier using buffs. Assuming we're still looking at the same example from above...
225 attacks that hit on 3s, rerolling due to Dark Apostle, is an average of 200 hits.
Conscripts being T3 means 75% of those attacks are wounding on 2s, rerolling due to Exalted Champion, means about 146 wounds out of 150 S6 attacks.
The other 25% are weaker so wound on 3s, rerolling due to Exalted Champion, means about 44 wounds out of 50 S5 attacks.
So 146 of those wounds carry a -1 AP meaning Conscripts save on a 6+, or about 122 dead conscripts.
The other 44 wounds have no AP meaning the Conscripts save on a 5+, or about 29 dead conscripts.
So you're looking at 151 dead conscripts and the Exalted Champion + Dark Apostle haven't even swung yet.
DISCLAIMER FOR THE EXTREMELY ANGSTY TROLLS IN THE ROOM: All of this assumes every Berserker survives until the end of the Fight phase. Which is doable if the conscript are fighting someone else or suck at rolling. With each berserker casualty the number of kills will decrease.
Sim-Life wrote: There gets a point where the amount of attacks a unit puts out becomes redundant. Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks? Not to mention 3cps is A LOT. Which I'm noticing is something people keep forgetting with these Stratagems.
What's better? Spending 3 CP on rerolls in the next turn or two? Or denying your opponent the use of half of his army by annihilating it right now? Those extra attacks can make the difference between a unit or tank surviving and not surviving, or eliminate even more squads that were just planning on shooting you later.
Literally what are you doing in your lists and on the table where a single on foot unit is able to reach and kill half your army in close combat in one turn?
Unless you're playing Imperial Knights and make really bad target priority decisions I feel like your exaggerating.
Melissia wrote: Also you're gonna want to have something else absorb the overwatch if yo'ure charging a 50-strong conscript unit.
Not to be a debbie downer, but overwatch from 100 lasgun shots averages 1.85 wounds vs T4 3+. I think Berserkers can safely ignore the "threat" of such things. That's even assuming they are at full strength, and all 50 models are within 12" of the charging unit.
Sim-Life wrote: Literally what are you doing in your lists and on the table where a single on foot unit is able to reach and kill half your army in close combat in one turn?
Unless you're playing Imperial Knights and make really bad target priority decisions I feel like your exaggerating.
They're not on foot. The example given above was having them in a Kharybdis drop pod. They arrive in charging distance of whatever they want.
Plus, that 3 CP gave you 75 extra attacks, all of which get free rerolls on hit and wound, in the example given. Versus 3 rerolls some other time in the game.
Personally I can think of no better use of CP for a World Eater army. Eating the world is the best it gets.
You'll still want to do it. Especially if you're doing a multi-charge, or charging any other unit with lots of shooting. Yes, it AVERAGES that many kills, but due to the sheer number of dice, it gets swingy.
So we want a vehicle tarpit of some kind to deal with Beserkers probably, a Rhino would probably do the job of delaying them opening up another round of ranged fire being able to hit them.
Maybe that Earthshaker stratagem for Thunderfire cannons will see use afterall.
Assault terminators with claws would probably do good work against them on the charge, thinning their numbers out dramatically before they could hit back. Using CP or the black templars CT to get rerolls on the charge for maximum chance of actually completing it.
Melissia wrote: Assault terminators with claws would probably do good work against them on the charge, thinning their numbers out dramatically before they could hit back. Using CP or the black templars CT to get rerolls on the charge for maximum chance of actually completing it.
I don't know if Terminators are quite cost effective in this, you would have to take a decent amount of termies in min. squads to counteract them on a by unit basis. Maybe just 2 with teleport homers to provide an initial alpha on the backlines then teleport back to beta strike or act as a wall with the remains of the squad.
Melissia wrote: Assault terminators with claws would probably do good work against them on the charge, thinning their numbers out dramatically before they could hit back. Using CP or the black templars CT to get rerolls on the charge for maximum chance of actually completing it.
I don't know if Terminators are quite cost effective in this, you would have to take a decent amount of termies in min. squads to counteract them on a by unit basis. Maybe just 2 with teleport homers to provide an initial alpha on the backlines then teleport back to beta strike or act as a wall with the remains of the squad.
That sounds like a good plan to me. They can teleport to their homer instead of falling back, too, by the way-- always something important to keep in mind, since they can still move after doing so as it's not a Fall Back move.
In the rules for the fight phase on page 8, pile-in is the second step of the fight phase (after choosing a unit to fight with), and consolidation is the last. So anything that grants an additional fight phase automatically grants an additional pile-in and consolidation move, because they're just part of it. Unless, of course, the rule that grants it is also written to specifically prohibit you from using those moves.
So every time a unit fights, the process goes like this:
1: Choose a unit to fight.
2: Pile-in
3: Choose targets (this of course means you can target things you would need a pile-in to reach, because the pile-in happens first)
4: Choose weapons
5: Swing
6: Consolidate
Repeat for each unit that can fight.
Because those two moves are an integral part of the fighting process, anything that grants a fight phase (as opposed to just granting attacks) also grants additional moves unless it specifically states otherwise.
So hold on a fething second: does this mean if you completely wipe something out with your Berzerker's first fight phase than you can simply take a six inch free move towards the closest enemy unit? This is pretty much what this means, correct?
Sim-Life wrote: Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks?
When 80% of the squad has been wiped out, obviously.
That one or two models can completely wipe out an entire squad by themselves if left alone means that you can't ever ignore them. You have to destroy the entire unit, rather then just cripple it, which makes it very likely that you'll be overkilling it and wasting points.
andysonic1 wrote: So hold on a fething second: does this mean if you completely wipe something out with your Berzerker's first fight phase than you can simply take a six inch free move towards the closest enemy unit? This is pretty much what this means, correct?
3" for sure (consolidation), but I think to pile-in you do still need at least one model in the unit to be eligible to fight in the first place.
So, as long as they can find a target within 3.99" of one of their models (because remember, they don't need to reach B2B, just 1"), that one model can consolidate 3" to stay in combat. Now the unit is eligible to fight, and the rest of the unit can make an additional 3" pile-in to catch up to that one model. Then, when they're done swinging, they can make another 3" consolidation.
However, you probably do also have to declare a charge against all the units you were planning to consolidate into that turn, even if you can't reach some of them initially. This is because of the "designer's notes", which seem to essentially be a "FAQ-lite".
A unit that charged is able to pile-in even if casualties brought it out of 1" range (it can still only swing if said pile-in managed to bring it back in, but it can consolidate regardless). This means pile-in and consolidation can be used much more aggressively on the turn that you charged than on subsequent turns.
A pile-in or consolidate can bring a unit into combat without a declared charge and without overwatch, but you won't be able to make attacks against that unit until your opponent engages with them in *their* fight phase. This is remedied by including them in your charge declaration if you expect to reach them with a pile-in or consolidation in the same turn. Remember, you only have to actually reach one of the units you declared a charge against for the charge to be "successful", and then the charge is valid for the rest of the turn.
Desubot wrote: Piling in i get i mean the permission to get within 1" of a unit that was not declared for assault.
The pile-in and consolidate rules specifically allow this. Read the Rulebook.
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Quickjager wrote: So we want a vehicle tarpit of some kind to deal with Beserkers probably, a Rhino would probably do the job of delaying them opening up another round of ranged fire being able to hit them.
Maybe that Earthshaker stratagem for Thunderfire cannons will see use afterall.
I'm not so sure how well Vehicle Tarpits will do. Berserkers have S6 axes so they wound on 5s for any T7 vehicles. With the aforementioned 225 attacks, 200 hitting, wounds rerolling, your Rhino is still going to explode and then some.
Even if you were to charge them to hopefully tie them up for a turn....
The same 18 Berserker (3 champs) + Exalted Champ + Dark Apostle blob would have:
- 3 attacks per Zerker, 4 per champ, rerolling all the things
- 57 attacks, 2/3 of which are S6, about 32 hitting per fight phase with 22 being S6.
- 12 S6 wounds and 3 S5 wounds on average; Rhino has to make 15 3+ saves, 12 of which are at -1
- Rhino takes on average about 7 wounds per fight phase.
- Berserkers fight twice.......................................
- If the Rhino somehow survives his average 14 wounds, spend 3 CP to have them fight AGAIN
Next turn, your Berserkers aren't tied up and can continue on their merry way, appreciating the free consolidation move the Rhino generously gave them.
andysonic1 wrote: So hold on a fething second: does this mean if you completely wipe something out with your Berzerker's first fight phase than you can simply take a six inch free move towards the closest enemy unit? This is pretty much what this means, correct?
In the charge phase:
First you have to declare a charge vs anything you want to fight.
Then you have to get at least one model within 1" of one of those units during your charge move. The rest of the models can go anywhere they want to, but this placement is very important, so plan ahead.
In the fight phase:
You can fight with 2 kinds of units: ones that are within 1" of the enemy, and ones that charged. This means that if you charge two of your units into 1 enemy unit and your first unit wipes out the enemy unit, your second unit that charged still gets to fight.
When you pile in, you can move each model up to 3" in any direction as long as you are at least a tiny bit closer to the closest enemy unit. This let's you reach units you couldn't in your charge phase as long as you can get to them with 3" and still end up closer to the closest enemy unit. This is why positioning in the charge move is so important.
For units that can fight more than once, it's completely possible to charge units A B and C as long as they are all within 12, fight and kill A, consolidate into / towards B, fight, pile in, kill B, consolidate into / towards C, and so on. The only limitations are always ending pile in and consolidate moves closer to the closest unit, and only being able to fight what you charged. You can lock things you didn't charge, though.
Desubot wrote: Piling in i get i mean the permission to get within 1" of a unit that was not declared for assault.
Only applies to the movement phase and the charge movement (if you didn't declare them as a target). Once the fight phase starts the only restriction is closet model, which a new unit can easily be if you moved your models to 1.001 inches away during the charge (only the first model in the unit Is restricted to specifically charging the target)
Desubot wrote: Piling in i get i mean the permission to get within 1" of a unit that was not declared for assault.
Only applies to the movement phase and the charge movement (if you didn't declare them as a target). Once the fight phase starts the only restriction is closet model, which a new unit can easily be if you moved your models to 1.001 inches away during the charge (only the first model in the unit Is restricted to specifically charging the target)
Desubot wrote: Piling in i get i mean the permission to get within 1" of a unit that was not declared for assault.
The pile-in and consolidate rules specifically allow this. Read the Rulebook.
Specifically where may i ask?
it says you must move near the nearest enemy but nothing that specifically allows or denys a different unit to which you charged initially.
Specifically as in it doesn't prohibit them from doing so. The only prohibitions to the moving closer than 1" are found in the Movement and Charging phases. Nothing stops you from piling in or consolidating closer so it's allowed.
Nearest enemy both allows and denies it. If a model moves, it must end closer to nearest enemy. It doesn't matter if you charged it or not.
It isn't a charge move or the movement phase, so the restrictions for those things no longer matter (as they are very specificly for the phase and the charge move)
But the distanced moved is up to you (including 0), so there are ways to do silly things.
A couple of posts up I linked a FAQ that clarifies the situation.
Though also they kind of need to roll those into the main FAQ if they're going to treat it as official. At first I looked up the core rulebook FAQ and went like "That's weird, I was sure they answered that question, where did it go?"
Then I remembered "Oh right, the 'designer's notes' FAQ-but-not-really-okay-kind-of. That's where they clarified things like consolidation and super-exploding plasma."
Melissia wrote: Assault terminators with claws would probably do good work against them on the charge, thinning their numbers out dramatically before they could hit back. Using CP or the black templars CT to get rerolls on the charge for maximum chance of actually completing it.
I don't know if Terminators are quite cost effective in this, you would have to take a decent amount of termies in min. squads to counteract them on a by unit basis. Maybe just 2 with teleport homers to provide an initial alpha on the backlines then teleport back to beta strike or act as a wall with the remains of the squad.
That sounds like a good plan to me. They can teleport to their homer instead of falling back, too, by the way-- always something important to keep in mind, since they can still move after doing so as it's not a Fall Back move.
No you can't, its at the end of the move phase. You can still charge and set up 1 inch away from the enemy though.
ross-128 wrote: A couple of posts up I linked a FAQ that clarifies the situation.
Though also they kind of need to roll those into the main FAQ if they're going to treat it as official. At first I looked up the core rulebook FAQ and went like "That's weird, I was sure they answered that question, where did it go?"
Then I remembered "Oh right, the 'designer's notes' FAQ-but-not-really-okay-kind-of. That's where they clarified things like consolidation and super-exploding plasma."
I think that's because FAQs are split into two sections. The rule changes and the Q:A ellaborations. The designer's notes are valid ellaborations of how the rule ALREADY works while FAQ ones similarly clarify existing rules without changing them. They always worked that way, you were just reading them wrong. That kind of thing. Actual rule changes agreed need to be in the official FAQs.
ross-128 wrote: A couple of posts up I linked a FAQ that clarifies the situation.
Though also they kind of need to roll those into the main FAQ if they're going to treat it as official. At first I looked up the core rulebook FAQ and went like "That's weird, I was sure they answered that question, where did it go?"
Then I remembered "Oh right, the 'designer's notes' FAQ-but-not-really-okay-kind-of. That's where they clarified things like consolidation and super-exploding plasma."
I think that's because FAQs are split into two sections. The rule changes and the Q:A ellaborations. The designer's notes are valid ellaborations of how the rule ALREADY works while FAQ ones similarly clarify existing rules without changing them. They always worked that way, you were just reading them wrong. That kind of thing. Actual rule changes agreed need to be in the official FAQs.
Well yes, but the Q&A section is still a part of the same document. So they should append those Q&As regarding the core rules into the Q&A section of the core FAQ, where people will be looking for them.
Melissia wrote: Also you're gonna want to have something else absorb the overwatch if yo'ure charging a 50-strong conscript unit.
Not to be a debbie downer, but overwatch from 100 lasgun shots averages 1.85 wounds vs T4 3+. I think Berserkers can safely ignore the "threat" of such things. That's even assuming they are at full strength, and all 50 models are within 12" of the charging unit.
You can't ignore expecting to lose 20% of your squad. And, let's be real, it's expected you'll take between 4-7 saves. That could be catastrophic. You'd want something to charge them first as Melissa said.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: even without the extra fight phase, a mere 6 berserkers stands a good chance of completely wiping out a conscript squad in 1 turn of combat through pure wounds. that is pretty insane.
I laugh maniacally at all the armies that have nothing to deal with conscripts. It's sitting right there behind you on your shelf collecting dust. Good old dependable Kharn and his band of lunatics.
Hmm the zerker consolidation conga kinda breaks down with the stipulation that you can only target units that you charged in the previous phase. (if they charged) you lose out on the LT double swing but you still get to do it on turn they didnt charge or was charged.
So here is my question did they FAQ berzerkers to be able to attack things that they did not charge during a charge turn? Otherwise though they could pile in to additional units they would not be allowed to attack units they did not charge in the charge phase regardless of how many fight activations they get. So that would curb some of the killing half the army idea unless they charged half the army.
That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.
It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!
koooaei wrote: 10+ s5 attacks from every single zerker. Phew, good i haven't started painting ork boyz yet. Seems they're gona be redundand.
If the rumors are accurate about them being the first Xenos with Tyranids, you'll probably get similarly crazy garbage in early 2018. The Index rules are merely porting over 7th edition rules with some changes for fluffy balance. Now comes the swarm of new rules that add even more gak to each individual faction.
Don't start painting them yet though. I'm betting if you paint them red they go faster, if you paint them blue they get invulns, if you paint them purple they're harder to shoot at, if you paint them yellow they shoot better, if you paint them black they are tougher, etc.
ross-128 wrote: That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.
It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!
No because you can't declare a charge on stuff outside 12 inches.
ross-128 wrote: That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.
It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!
"Models that charged this turn can only target
enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."
Nothing about deceleration. probably needs clarification.
declaring a charge make it a unit that was charged, but as was pointed out with the requirement of needing to be within 12" of a unit most units will get overwatch if you declare against them so it can be dangerous. It also means if you do spread out as a defender the berzerkers won't be able to attack you if they could not declare you as a charge target.
The weird thing with the Berzerkers is they do not show up if you're just browsing the Chaos Marine stuff, you actually have to search the site for them specifically....
ross-128 wrote: That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.
It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!
"Models that charged this turn can only target
enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."
Nothing about deceleration. probably needs clarification.
Same page, Charge Phase - Step 2.
"Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as target(s) of the charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch."
Every unit you selected within 12" is part of the charge and count as a unit you have charged as long as the charge is successful. The charge is successful if a single model gets into contact with any other enemy model using his charge roll. The other targets you selected remain part of the successful charge but the price you paid for that was getting Overwatched by all of them.\
Basically, if the thing Overwatched you, it's a valid fight target.
Yep, so that means the idea does work. It's just limited to a 12" range then, and basically means the only way to avoid the overwatch is to throw a sacrificial unit in there first.
2. Choose Targets Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch. 3. Overwatch Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers. 4. Make Charge Move After any Overwatch has been resolved, roll 2D6. Each model in the charging unit can move up to this number of inches – this is their charge distance this turn. The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase. Once you’ve moved all the models in the charging unit, choose another eligible unit and repeat the above procedure until all eligible units that you want to make charge moves have done so. No unit can be selected to charge more than once in each Charge phase.
Where does it say they count as having being charged. ( a unit counting as having been charged if they didnt get locked into combat during a multi charge)
2. Choose Targets
Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more
enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the
charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch.
3. Overwatch
Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit
can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker.
A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several
times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy
models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.
4. Make Charge Move
After any Overwatch has been resolved, roll 2D6. Each
model in the charging unit can move up to this number
of inches – this is their charge distance this turn. The
first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy
model from one of the target units. No models in the
charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that
was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the
charge fails and no models in the charging unit move
this phase. Once you’ve moved all the models in the
charging unit, choose another eligible unit and repeat
the above procedure until all eligible units that you want
to make charge moves have done so. No unit can be
selected to charge more than once in each Charge phase.
Where does it say they count as having being charged.
Well, technically that quote block doesn't even say that it counts as having charged the unit *it actually made contact with*. That interpretation would be silly of course, because that means no unit ever counts as having charged under any circumstance.
However, it does offer a condition where the charge fails: the charge fails if the unit cannot reach ANY of its charge targets.
Therefore, we can derive from that that a successful charge is the opposite: if a unit can reach any of its charge targets, the charge is successful even if it doesn't necessarily reach all of them.
Desubot wrote: Where does it say they count as having being charged. ( a unit counting as having been charged if they didnt get locked into combat during a multi charge)
Literally in the quote I gave you already. They are targets of the charge hence you are charging them hence they are units you charged. They fired Overwatch specifically because YOU CHARGED THEM!
Nowhere does it claim you have to make base contact with a unit to treat it as having been charged, those are the old rules. This is a permissive ruleset and there are no restrictions or preventions listed to count models that you LITERALLY CHARGED and that fired Overwatch at you from counting as having been charged. It does however include them among the targets of your charge and counts the charge as successful if you reach any of charge targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not to mention the multiple FAQs addressing charge concerns:
Q: Is there any limit on the number of enemy units I
can choose as targets of a charge?
A: No – so long as all the targets of the charge are within
12", you can declare as many targets of a charge as
you like
Q: Can a single-model unit declare charges against
multiple units?
A: Yes.
A single model can declare charges against several units, even
if it would be impossible to finish the charge within 1" of all
of them. Doing so gives you more choices on where to actually
move, depending upon your subsequent charge roll, but leaves
you vulnerable to more Overwatch.
Q: Must a unit end its charge move as close as possible
to the target(s) of its charge (i.e. base-to-base contact),
and must a unit attempt to engage as many of the
targets of its charge as possible?
A: No. The first model in the charging unit that is moved
only has to finish its charge move within 1" of at least one
of the units that was selected as a target of its charge.
Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an
enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models
removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units
later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?
A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough
casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that
did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-
in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of
course, consolidate.
Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase with no enemy units
within 1", but then enemy units that have been chosen
to fight move to within 1" of it as a result of their pile-in
or consolidation moves, can that unit then be chosen to
fight when it is your turn to choose a unit?
A: Yes.
Note, however, that units can only be chosen to fight once
per phase.
Q: If a unit piles in or consolidates into a unit it didn’t
declare a charge against in the preceding Charge
phase, does that unit get to fire Overwatch?
A: No.
Remember though that units that charged can only make close
combat attacks against units that they declared the charge
against, even if pile-in moves, etc. bring them within 1" of a
different unit.
^^^ With this last one specifying that the intent of the rules is that you only need to DECLARE a charge against them for them to be eligible to fight after pile-ins or consolidates.
So basically, Berzerkers still kill what they charge, just kills them deader. lol The real threat here is what someone posted above, even 2 or 3 of them left is still a threat. I'm no more worried about them than I was before. They charge, they kill my unit. I charge, I kill theirs.
I haven't done so but the Blood Warriors are basically Khorne berserkers minus a pistol and backpack. Hell if you're going with the two melee weapon combo, you just need a backpack (which GW sells separately too).
The only thing is that the current derpy Berserkers cost much less.
For those saying that berserkers will likely get a price bump because of this: don't forget that they can be taken with other legions - where they would function much the same as they do now (perhaps, EC could be a viable choice for them - not WE good though, obviously). So, increasing their price, unless GW found a way to tailor their price based on what faction is taking them (not gunna happen), won't make any sense.
Lancelot185 wrote: For those saying that berserkers will likely get a price bump because of this: don't forget that they can be taken with other legions - where they would function much the same as they do now (perhaps, EC could be a viable choice for them - not WE good though, obviously). So, increasing their price, unless GW found a way to tailor their price based on what faction is taking them (not gunna happen), won't make any sense.
So, lose out on the 15 attacks cap, but still get to activate twice AND guarenteed fight first? Option...
Lancelot185 wrote: For those saying that berserkers will likely get a price bump because of this: don't forget that they can be taken with other legions - where they would function much the same as they do now (perhaps, EC could be a viable choice for them - not WE good though, obviously). So, increasing their price, unless GW found a way to tailor their price based on what faction is taking them (not gunna happen), won't make any sense.
But units shouldn't be balanced for any scenario, they should be balanced for their best scenario. Conscripts are widely considered very good or broken, but if I take 20 of them and the rest of my army is composed of tanks, nobody will complain about them. They are only strong in certain situations, and those situations are the ones you will be playing. If they are broken in a World Eaters army and merely average in others, we need to fix their synergy in the first. So either we fix the Berzerkers themselves and reduce their effectiveness with non-WE to bad levels, or we fix the WE tactics and how they interact with berzerkers.
WE are strong. WE Zerkers are strong as feth. But they're a one-dimensional faction. Your WE army is consisting of 50%+ Zerkers and some stuff to support them (maybe Rhino's, a bit of shooting to take out tanks quickly, perhaps some Khorne Daemons). You're just plonking your models on the table and then telling your opponent flatly and calmly that you're charging everything at him, each tun, every turn. Until he's dead. There's very little subtlety. Sure you have to micro model placement in combat and employ detailed and intricate consolidation moves but that';s the extent of your tactical dealings. You're just gonna charge stuff. Until it dies! There's little out-manoeuvring to be done, little flanking or genius level deep striking. You just wanna charge stuff. Until it's dead! If WE weren't extremely good at charging stuff until it's dead then the faction wouldn't work at all.
But this is all balanced byt hr fact that WE can't shoot for gak, they don't do psychic and if you can shoot them before they reach charge range they auto-lose the game. The reason they're so good and have so many attacks is they're meant to mangle that 50 man conscript squad roadblock you placed down in a single turn. No fething around, you're not roadblocking WE baby! You give them massed chaff they just eat them as an appetizer. All those attacks fall down when you properly space out your units so they can't multi-charge or consolidate into your key units though. A properly positioned defence will negate many of the WE advantages. The only problem is you'd have to feed them chaff each turn, one at a time to slow them down. But spending all those points on chaff leaves you with less for the good stuff. If you load up heavy on decent shooting units to blow WE off the table then they'll probably get into your gunlines before you can do the job, without spending all those points on chaff.
WE are gonna punish hard armies that don't take chaff, and they're gonna reduce the effectiveness of those that do because they demand you take double chaff to have any chance of slowing these bastards down!
WE aren't subtle but they do force some horrible decisions to be made by those fighting them. They're one-dimensional but they take the initiative out of your opponents hand and force them to play your game. And an experienced WE player will now exactly how to deal with a chaff defence. I like it. WE will play very fluffy now and be super effective. I think people are getting carried away by adding up all those attacks and multiplying them by three though. Your Zerkers are rarely getting to do that. Once people work out how to set up a defence you might struggle to even get your second round of hits in. But they're there, just in case you whiff that first round of attacks vs a 50 man conscript sqaud. And in case the second round whiffs too. You always have the third round that should actually finish them off and allow you to finally consolidate into the tank you wanted to hit in the first place. 8/10 Zerkers will probably only attack once in a round, the purpose of the second round is to finish off anything still standing or to allow for crazy multi-charges to overun a gunline or tightly packed defence.
You can have double shooting Slaanesh marked Havocs with ignore cover. Or fearless cultists blobs that can tarpit enemy units. 2+ DP's with either a 4++ or 5+++ depending if you go Tzeentch or Slaanesh. Only thing weak in IW is the 6+++ strattagem that's patently weak and the lack of mobile artillery tanks. Write to GW, maybe they'll issue some sort of "Armory of the Legions" article in WD or something and add Basilisks/Medusa's to the IW army list?
Demantiae wrote: WE are strong. WE Zerkers are strong as feth. But they're a one-dimensional faction. Your WE army is consisting of 50%+ Zerkers and some stuff to support them (maybe Rhino's, a bit of shooting to take out tanks quickly, perhaps some Khorne Daemons). You're just plonking your models on the table and then telling your opponent flatly and calmly that you're charging everything at him, each tun, every turn. Until he's dead. There's very little subtlety. Sure you have to micro model placement in combat and employ detailed and intricate consolidation moves but that';s the extent of your tactical dealings. You're just gonna charge stuff. Until it dies! There's little out-manoeuvring to be done, little flanking or genius level deep striking. You just wanna charge stuff. Until it's dead! If WE weren't extremely good at charging stuff until it's dead then the faction wouldn't work at all.
But this is all balanced byt hr fact that WE can't shoot for gak, they don't do psychic and if you can shoot them before they reach charge range they auto-lose the game. The reason they're so good and have so many attacks is they're meant to mangle that 50 man conscript squad roadblock you placed down in a single turn. No fething around, you're not roadblocking WE baby! You give them massed chaff they just eat them as an appetizer. All those attacks fall down when you properly space out your units so they can't multi-charge or consolidate into your key units though. A properly positioned defence will negate many of the WE advantages. The only problem is you'd have to feed them chaff each turn, one at a time to slow them down. But spending all those points on chaff leaves you with less for the good stuff. If you load up heavy on decent shooting units to blow WE off the table then they'll probably get into your gunlines before you can do the job, without spending all those points on chaff.
WE are gonna punish hard armies that don't take chaff, and they're gonna reduce the effectiveness of those that do because they demand you take double chaff to have any chance of slowing these bastards down!
WE aren't subtle but they do force some horrible decisions to be made by those fighting them. They're one-dimensional but they take the initiative out of your opponents hand and force them to play your game. And an experienced WE player will now exactly how to deal with a chaff defence. I like it. WE will play very fluffy now and be super effective. I think people are getting carried away by adding up all those attacks and multiplying them by three though. Your Zerkers are rarely getting to do that. Once people work out how to set up a defence you might struggle to even get your second round of hits in. But they're there, just in case you whiff that first round of attacks vs a 50 man conscript sqaud. And in case the second round whiffs too. You always have the third round that should actually finish them off and allow you to finally consolidate into the tank you wanted to hit in the first place. 8/10 Zerkers will probably only attack once in a round, the purpose of the second round is to finish off anything still standing or to allow for crazy multi-charges to overun a gunline or tightly packed defence.
I love how you managed to sum it up. It makes the army sound like it wants to do it's own thing (that is, mindlessly charge at the opponent every single turn) and you just have to make the best of the situation, even if it's less than optimal. Which is exactly how an army of frothing berserk warriors should play like.
auticus wrote: People *should* be afraid of bezerkers, not laughing at them which is where we've been for over a decade now.
Agreed.
Berzerkers finally play like the rabid, chain weapon wielding, blood god worshipping, super-human, needles in the brain gladiator nutters that they are.
I'm curious why people focus on using the stratagem on zerkers. They aren't the best choice tbh, you only use the stratagem once per turn (and at 3 cp, 2ish times a game). Zerkers are good because they already fight twice, not because they put out the most damage per fight. Chosen or terminators would be better choices, unless you expect to get a full unit of 20 foot slogging zerkers into melee. Shame nothing benefits spawn, or they'd work wonderfully.
Honestly this stratagem is not even that needed on World Eaters units. We already get the extra attack and if you don't kill what you're fighting that first time you fight what the heck is wrong with you.
Is there anything stopping you from playing a shooty WE army that is also pretty good at assaulting?
Mathematically, the trait helps 1 attack models a lot more than it helps 3 attack models (100% increase vs 33% increase), which seems worth considering.
Good thing the stratagem is for Khorne marked units, not specifically World Eaters.
Honestly, I'm liking Renegades more for my Khornish hordes. Advancing and charging is pretty huge, especially for things like bikes, and I feel like the WE +1 attack is sort of redundant. They're plenty killy enough, the challenge has always been getting them into the fight.
McGibs wrote: Good thing the stratagem is for Khorne marked units, not specifically World Eaters.
Honestly, I'm liking Renegades more for my Khornish hordes. Advancing and charging is pretty huge, especially for things like bikes, and I feel like the WE +1 attack is sort of redundant. They're plenty killy enough, the challenge has always been getting them into the fight.
Very true, which is why I'm wondering if a shooty WE list with the trait as more of a backup ability could be worth thinking about.
I think EC's tactic is much better suited towards melee deterrence with a shooty army than WE's. The fact they get the double shoot slaanesh stratagem is another point.
As for renegades vs WE, it comes down to foot slogging vs deep striking and mechanized assault. If you want to run your army up the field, renegades are probably better, but any other style of assault benefits WE more. Even walking them up the field you must consider the benefits of getting into combat at most a turn sooner (and sometimes no sooner) vs making more impact when you do get there. Extra attacks on the charge may make up for a handful of lost models.
So I think WE are still the better choice overall. Just possibly not the best choice for 20 man zerker squads charging up the field.
Sim-Life wrote: There gets a point where the amount of attacks a unit puts out becomes redundant. Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks? Not to mention 3cps is A LOT. Which I'm noticing is something people keep forgetting with these Stratagems.
What's better? Spending 3 CP on rerolls in the next turn or two? Or denying your opponent the use of half of his army by annihilating it right now? Those extra attacks can make the difference between a unit or tank surviving and not surviving, or eliminate even more squads that were just planning on shooting you later.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: even without the extra fight phase, a mere 6 berserkers stands a good chance of completely wiping out a conscript squad in 1 turn of combat through pure wounds. that is pretty insane.
Even easier using buffs. Assuming we're still looking at the same example from above...
225 attacks that hit on 3s, rerolling due to Dark Apostle, is an average of 200 hits. Conscripts being T3 means 75% of those attacks are wounding on 2s, rerolling due to Exalted Champion, means about 146 wounds out of 150 S6 attacks. The other 25% are weaker so wound on 3s, rerolling due to Exalted Champion, means about 44 wounds out of 50 S5 attacks. So 146 of those wounds carry a -1 AP meaning Conscripts save on a 6+, or about 122 dead conscripts. The other 44 wounds have no AP meaning the Conscripts save on a 5+, or about 29 dead conscripts.
So you're looking at 151 dead conscripts and the Exalted Champion + Dark Apostle haven't even swung yet.
DISCLAIMER FOR THE EXTREMELY ANGSTY TROLLS IN THE ROOM: All of this assumes every Berserker survives until the end of the Fight phase. Which is doable if the conscript are fighting someone else or suck at rolling. With each berserker casualty the number of kills will decrease.
It's not 225 attacks. You'd need NINE COMMAND POINTS to do that given your math above. Their stratagem is not 1CP. It's 3CP...per unit.
Now, a single 18-strong berzerker unit? They had better be able to wipe out a whole lot of conscripts when you stack this many buffs on top of them. It's almost as if it were intended or something.
However, this squad is going to have some disadvantages:
1) It can't fit inside a transport. 2) It can't fit inside cover. 3) It can't hide behind terrain. 4) It is the first thing your opponent is going to shoot. Not the last. 5) It has facing problems on the charge. You're not guaranteed to be able to get that many berzerkers into fight-range on the charge without a GITANTIC charge roll, and even then you might be rolling boxcars on a 9" charge which only gives you 3" to play with. Which is not enough movement to get everything into range every time.
In reality, you're going to take 18-20 berzerkers in two squads of 9-10, and you're going to stuff them into a pair of rhinos. The squad that doesn't get blown up in their transport is going to exit the vehicle and charge on turn 2, and the 3CP stratagem is what's going to guarantee you kill the conscripts you need off the table if you want to stand a chance at winning. Especially if you're multi-charging anything. A turn or two later, the other squad that got half-killed when their transport blew up will arrive and reinforce the survivers of the first squad that's now been mostly killed by concentrated shooting. Meanwhile your quad las preds are doing work, trying to kill enough LRBTs that your berzerkers and summoned deamons don't get completely wiped out before they can get to the chewy center of your opponent's line.
Alternatively, you're going to foot-slog 18 berzerkers up the board with an apostle backing them up. In the three turns they spend running you'll be lucky if 6 of them make it to charge range, because they're a big, scary unit of berzerkers and they're going to be taking a LOT of enemy fire. When you get there, you'll be thankful for the 3CP stratagem because you're going to need it in order to wipe out the conscripts that are bubble-wrapping your opponent's line, preventing your jump-pack chaos lord and raptors from deepstriking in and summoning your bloodletters into the middle of your opponent's army. And then, you're going to make your charge, only to die to overwatch because that's how this seems to always work...
Arandmoor wrote: It's not 225 attacks. You'd need NINE COMMAND POINTS to do that given your math above. Their stratagem is not 1CP. It's 3CP...per unit.
Now, a single 18-strong berzerker unit? They had better be able to wipe out a whole lot of conscripts when you stack this many buffs on top of them. It's almost as if it were intended or something.
However, this squad is going to have some disadvantages:
1) It can't fit inside a transport.
2) It can't fit inside cover.
3) It can't hide behind terrain.
4) It is the first thing your opponent is going to shoot. Not the last.
5) It has facing problems on the charge. You're not guaranteed to be able to get that many berzerkers into fight-range on the charge without a GITANTIC charge roll, and even then you might be rolling boxcars on a 9" charge which only gives you 3" to play with. Which is not enough movement to get everything into range every time.
In reality, you're going to take 18-20 berzerkers in two squads of 9-10, and you're going to stuff them into a pair of rhinos. The squad that doesn't get blown up in their transport is going to exit the vehicle and charge on turn 2, and the 3CP stratagem is what's going to guarantee you kill the conscripts you need off the table if you want to stand a chance at winning. Especially if you're multi-charging anything. A turn or two later, the other squad that got half-killed when their transport blew up will arrive and reinforce the survivers of the first squad that's now been mostly killed by concentrated shooting. Meanwhile your quad las preds are doing work, trying to kill enough LRBTs that your berzerkers and summoned deamons don't get completely wiped out before they can get to the chewy center of your opponent's line.
At some point, someone will figure out they can put 4x 10 man Berzerker squads in 2 Kharbdis Assault Claws and call it a day. Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.
techsoldaten wrote: Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.
At some point, someone will figure out they can put 4x 10 man Berzerker squads in 2 Kharbdis Assault Claws and call it a day. Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.
Or people could see it coming a mile away and deploy intelligently.
techsoldaten wrote: At some point, someone will figure out they can put 4x 10 man Berzerker squads in 2 Kharbdis Assault Claws and call it a day. Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.
Let us count the issues: first off, anything in the drop pod must deploy 9 in from enemy models. So still a 9 inch charge.
Second, half your army has to be on the board, in terms of units. This is 1250+ points and 6 units. So this is pretty much only 2000+ pointgames, and even there you risk going second and getting tabled.
Third, this isn't even that dangerous. Zerkers can chew through enemies, but not to the point they won't have a response. Depending on deployment you may not even touch most of their expensive stuff.
Arandmoor wrote: It's not 225 attacks. You'd need NINE COMMAND POINTS to do that given your math above. Their stratagem is not 1CP. It's 3CP...per unit.
Now, a single 18-strong berzerker unit? They had better be able to wipe out a whole lot of conscripts when you stack this many buffs on top of them. It's almost as if it were intended or something.
However, this squad is going to have some disadvantages:
1) It can't fit inside a transport.
2) It can't fit inside cover.
3) It can't hide behind terrain.
4) It is the first thing your opponent is going to shoot. Not the last.
5) It has facing problems on the charge. You're not guaranteed to be able to get that many berzerkers into fight-range on the charge without a GITANTIC charge roll, and even then you might be rolling boxcars on a 9" charge which only gives you 3" to play with. Which is not enough movement to get everything into range every time.
In reality, you're going to take 18-20 berzerkers in two squads of 9-10, and you're going to stuff them into a pair of rhinos. The squad that doesn't get blown up in their transport is going to exit the vehicle and charge on turn 2, and the 3CP stratagem is what's going to guarantee you kill the conscripts you need off the table if you want to stand a chance at winning. Especially if you're multi-charging anything. A turn or two later, the other squad that got half-killed when their transport blew up will arrive and reinforce the survivers of the first squad that's now been mostly killed by concentrated shooting. Meanwhile your quad las preds are doing work, trying to kill enough LRBTs that your berzerkers and summoned deamons don't get completely wiped out before they can get to the chewy center of your opponent's line.
At some point, someone will figure out they can put 4x 10 man Berzerker squads in 2 Kharbdis Assault Claws and call it a day. Properly positioned, each Berzerker squad will have a 3 inch charge on turn one. Most games should end quickly after that, and maybe we can just declare 40k as having been won.
I'm not sure where the 3" charge is coming from? The dread claw works like a drop pod, the models leaving the transport need to be more than 9" away from enemy models.
ross-128 wrote: That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.
It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!
You can't charge units out of 12" not much is going to be out of range
