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 Arkaine wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
A couple of posts up I linked a FAQ that clarifies the situation.

Though also they kind of need to roll those into the main FAQ if they're going to treat it as official. At first I looked up the core rulebook FAQ and went like "That's weird, I was sure they answered that question, where did it go?"

Then I remembered "Oh right, the 'designer's notes' FAQ-but-not-really-okay-kind-of. That's where they clarified things like consolidation and super-exploding plasma."

I think that's because FAQs are split into two sections. The rule changes and the Q:A ellaborations. The designer's notes are valid ellaborations of how the rule ALREADY works while FAQ ones similarly clarify existing rules without changing them. They always worked that way, you were just reading them wrong. That kind of thing. Actual rule changes agreed need to be in the official FAQs.

Well yes, but the Q&A section is still a part of the same document. So they should append those Q&As regarding the core rules into the Q&A section of the core FAQ, where people will be looking for them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also you're gonna want to have something else absorb the overwatch if yo'ure charging a 50-strong conscript unit.

Not to be a debbie downer, but overwatch from 100 lasgun shots averages 1.85 wounds vs T4 3+. I think Berserkers can safely ignore the "threat" of such things. That's even assuming they are at full strength, and all 50 models are within 12" of the charging unit.

You can't ignore expecting to lose 20% of your squad. And, let's be real, it's expected you'll take between 4-7 saves. That could be catastrophic. You'd want something to charge them first as Melissa said.

If for no other reason, at least that something else wouldn't lose ~30 attacks from those 1.85 wounds.

So even if using a rhino-screen isn't strictly *necessary*, it's probably still more efficient than losing even one berzerker.

Yep. Rhinos are great tarpits against low strength, low AP attacks. Use them where you can.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
even without the extra fight phase, a mere 6 berserkers stands a good chance of completely wiping out a conscript squad in 1 turn of combat through pure wounds. that is pretty insane.

I laugh maniacally at all the armies that have nothing to deal with conscripts. It's sitting right there behind you on your shelf collecting dust. Good old dependable Kharn and his band of lunatics.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD.

Hmm the zerker consolidation conga kinda breaks down with the stipulation that you can only target units that you charged in the previous phase. (if they charged) you lose out on the LT double swing but you still get to do it on turn they didnt charge or was charged.

So here is my question did they FAQ berzerkers to be able to attack things that they did not charge during a charge turn? Otherwise though they could pile in to additional units they would not be allowed to attack units they did not charge in the charge phase regardless of how many fight activations they get. So that would curb some of the killing half the army idea unless they charged half the army.

That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.

It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!

10+ s5 attacks from every single zerker. Phew, good i haven't started painting ork boyz yet. Seems they're gona be redundand.

 koooaei wrote:
10+ s5 attacks from every single zerker. Phew, good i haven't started painting ork boyz yet. Seems they're gona be redundand.

If the rumors are accurate about them being the first Xenos with Tyranids, you'll probably get similarly crazy garbage in early 2018. The Index rules are merely porting over 7th edition rules with some changes for fluffy balance. Now comes the swarm of new rules that add even more gak to each individual faction.

Don't start painting them yet though. I'm betting if you paint them red they go faster, if you paint them blue they get invulns, if you paint them purple they're harder to shoot at, if you paint them yellow they shoot better, if you paint them black they are tougher, etc.

But obviously Green is the best.

 ross-128 wrote:
That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.

It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!

No because you can't declare a charge on stuff outside 12 inches.

 ross-128 wrote:
That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.

It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!

"Models that charged this turn can only target
enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."

Nothing about deceleration. probably needs clarification.

declaring a charge make it a unit that was charged, but as was pointed out with the requirement of needing to be within 12" of a unit most units will get overwatch if you declare against them so it can be dangerous. It also means if you do spread out as a defender the berzerkers won't be able to attack you if they could not declare you as a charge target.

 Melissia wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Khorne-Berzerkers

37.25 for 12.

The weird thing with the Berzerkers is they do not show up if you're just browsing the Chaos Marine stuff, you actually have to search the site for them specifically....

 Desubot wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
That you *declared* a charge on, there is a difference. As long as you declare against all of them (which does mean letting all of them fire overwatch), you only have to reach one to count as "having charged", and then proceed to shred everything you included in your declaration.

It basically just means that if you are planning to do that, you're going to have to also plan for overwatch from everything you're planning to consolidate into. Though considering how much table those 'zerkers can cover in a single turn (move, charge, 2-3 pile-ins and 2-3 consolidates), some of those targets may miss out on overwatch simply because they're out of range!

"Models that charged this turn can only target
enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."

Nothing about deceleration. probably needs clarification.

Same page, Charge Phase - Step 2.

"Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as target(s) of the charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch."

Every unit you selected within 12" is part of the charge and count as a unit you have charged as long as the charge is successful. The charge is successful if a single model gets into contact with any other enemy model using his charge roll. The other targets you selected remain part of the successful charge but the price you paid for that was getting Overwatched by all of them.\

Basically, if the thing Overwatched you, it's a valid fight target.

Yep, so that means the idea does work. It's just limited to a 12" range then, and basically means the only way to avoid the overwatch is to throw a sacrificial unit in there first.

Where does it say they count as having being charged. ( a unit counting as having been charged if they didnt get locked into combat during a multi charge)

 Desubot wrote:

Spoiler:

2. Choose Targets
Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more
enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the
charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch.
3. Overwatch
Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit
can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker.
A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several
times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy
models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.
4. Make Charge Move
After any Overwatch has been resolved, roll 2D6. Each
model in the charging unit can move up to this number
of inches – this is their charge distance this turn. The
first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy
model from one of the target units. No models in the
charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that
was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the
charge fails and no models in the charging unit move
this phase. Once you’ve moved all the models in the
charging unit, choose another eligible unit and repeat
the above procedure until all eligible units that you want
to make charge moves have done so. No unit can be
selected to charge more than once in each Charge phase.

Where does it say they count as having being charged.

Well, technically that quote block doesn't even say that it counts as having charged the unit *it actually made contact with*. That interpretation would be silly of course, because that means no unit ever counts as having charged under any circumstance.

However, it does offer a condition where the charge fails: the charge fails if the unit cannot reach ANY of its charge targets.

Therefore, we can derive from that that a successful charge is the opposite: if a unit can reach any of its charge targets, the charge is successful even if it doesn't necessarily reach all of them.

 Desubot wrote:
Where does it say they count as having being charged. ( a unit counting as having been charged if they didnt get locked into combat during a multi charge)

Literally in the quote I gave you already. They are targets of the charge hence you are charging them hence they are units you charged. They fired Overwatch specifically because YOU CHARGED THEM!

Nowhere does it claim you have to make base contact with a unit to treat it as having been charged, those are the old rules. This is a permissive ruleset and there are no restrictions or preventions listed to count models that you LITERALLY CHARGED and that fired Overwatch at you from counting as having been charged. It does however include them among the targets of your charge and counts the charge as successful if you reach any of charge targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention the multiple FAQs addressing charge concerns:

Q: Is there any limit on the number of enemy units I
can choose as targets of a charge?
A: No – so long as all the targets of the charge are within
12", you can declare as many targets of a charge as
you like

Q: Can a single-model unit declare charges against
multiple units?
A: Yes.
A single model can declare charges against several units, even
if it would be impossible to finish the charge within 1" of all
of them. Doing so gives you more choices on where to actually
move, depending upon your subsequent charge roll, but leaves
you vulnerable to more Overwatch.

Q: Must a unit end its charge move as close as possible
to the target(s) of its charge (i.e. base-to-base contact),
and must a unit attempt to engage as many of the
targets of its charge as possible?
A: No. The first model in the charging unit that is moved
only has to finish its charge move within 1" of at least one
of the units that was selected as a target of its charge.

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an
enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models
removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units
later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?
A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough
casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that
did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-
in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of
course, consolidate.

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase with no enemy units
within 1", but then enemy units that have been chosen
to fight move to within 1" of it as a result of their pile-in
or consolidation moves, can that unit then be chosen to
fight when it is your turn to choose a unit?
A: Yes.
Note, however, that units can only be chosen to fight once
per phase.

Q: If a unit piles in or consolidates into a unit it didn’t
declare a charge against in the preceding Charge
phase, does that unit get to fire Overwatch?
A: No.
Remember though that units that charged can only make close
combat attacks against units that they declared the charge
against, even if pile-in moves, etc. bring them within 1" of a
different unit.


^^^ With this last one specifying that the intent of the rules is that you only need to DECLARE a charge against them for them to be eligible to fight after pile-ins or consolidates.

So basically, Berzerkers still kill what they charge, just kills them deader. lol
The real threat here is what someone posted above, even 2 or 3 of them left is still a threat. I'm no more worried about them than I was before. They charge, they kill my unit. I charge, I kill theirs.

Does anyone use or has converted Blades of Khorne models to represent berserkers?

I haven't done so but the Blood Warriors are basically Khorne berserkers minus a pistol and backpack. Hell if you're going with the two melee weapon combo, you just need a backpack (which GW sells separately too).

The only thing is that the current derpy Berserkers cost much less.

For those saying that berserkers will likely get a price bump because of this: don't forget that they can be taken with other legions - where they would function much the same as they do now (perhaps, EC could be a viable choice for them - not WE good though, obviously). So, increasing their price, unless GW found a way to tailor their price based on what faction is taking them (not gunna happen), won't make any sense.

 Desubot wrote:
Also for all we know zerks might be getting a price hike for all that power.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Zerks are already considered very powerful. I think it's a fair assumption to make.

Lancelot185 wrote:
For those saying that berserkers will likely get a price bump because of this: don't forget that they can be taken with other legions - where they would function much the same as they do now (perhaps, EC could be a viable choice for them - not WE good though, obviously). So, increasing their price, unless GW found a way to tailor their price based on what faction is taking them (not gunna happen), won't make any sense.

So, lose out on the 15 attacks cap, but still get to activate twice AND guarenteed fight first? Option...

Lancelot185 wrote:
For those saying that berserkers will likely get a price bump because of this: don't forget that they can be taken with other legions - where they would function much the same as they do now (perhaps, EC could be a viable choice for them - not WE good though, obviously). So, increasing their price, unless GW found a way to tailor their price based on what faction is taking them (not gunna happen), won't make any sense.

But units shouldn't be balanced for any scenario, they should be balanced for their best scenario. Conscripts are widely considered very good or broken, but if I take 20 of them and the rest of my army is composed of tanks, nobody will complain about them. They are only strong in certain situations, and those situations are the ones you will be playing. If they are broken in a World Eaters army and merely average in others, we need to fix their synergy in the first. So either we fix the Berzerkers themselves and reduce their effectiveness with non-WE to bad levels, or we fix the WE tactics and how they interact with berzerkers.

Now I'm even saltier over iw trait.

WE are strong. WE Zerkers are strong as feth. But they're a one-dimensional faction. Your WE army is consisting of 50%+ Zerkers and some stuff to support them (maybe Rhino's, a bit of shooting to take out tanks quickly, perhaps some Khorne Daemons). You're just plonking your models on the table and then telling your opponent flatly and calmly that you're charging everything at him, each tun, every turn. Until he's dead. There's very little subtlety. Sure you have to micro model placement in combat and employ detailed and intricate consolidation moves but that';s the extent of your tactical dealings. You're just gonna charge stuff. Until it dies! There's little out-manoeuvring to be done, little flanking or genius level deep striking. You just wanna charge stuff. Until it's dead! If WE weren't extremely good at charging stuff until it's dead then the faction wouldn't work at all.

But this is all balanced byt hr fact that WE can't shoot for gak, they don't do psychic and if you can shoot them before they reach charge range they auto-lose the game. The reason they're so good and have so many attacks is they're meant to mangle that 50 man conscript squad roadblock you placed down in a single turn. No fething around, you're not roadblocking WE baby! You give them massed chaff they just eat them as an appetizer. All those attacks fall down when you properly space out your units so they can't multi-charge or consolidate into your key units though. A properly positioned defence will negate many of the WE advantages. The only problem is you'd have to feed them chaff each turn, one at a time to slow them down. But spending all those points on chaff leaves you with less for the good stuff. If you load up heavy on decent shooting units to blow WE off the table then they'll probably get into your gunlines before you can do the job, without spending all those points on chaff.

WE are gonna punish hard armies that don't take chaff, and they're gonna reduce the effectiveness of those that do because they demand you take double chaff to have any chance of slowing these bastards down!

WE aren't subtle but they do force some horrible decisions to be made by those fighting them. They're one-dimensional but they take the initiative out of your opponents hand and force them to play your game. And an experienced WE player will now exactly how to deal with a chaff defence. I like it. WE will play very fluffy now and be super effective. I think people are getting carried away by adding up all those attacks and multiplying them by three though. Your Zerkers are rarely getting to do that. Once people work out how to set up a defence you might struggle to even get your second round of hits in. But they're there, just in case you whiff that first round of attacks vs a 50 man conscript sqaud. And in case the second round whiffs too. You always have the third round that should actually finish them off and allow you to finally consolidate into the tank you wanted to hit in the first place. 8/10 Zerkers will probably only attack once in a round, the purpose of the second round is to finish off anything still standing or to allow for crazy multi-charges to overun a gunline or tightly packed defence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
Now I'm even saltier over iw trait.

You can have double shooting Slaanesh marked Havocs with ignore cover. Or fearless cultists blobs that can tarpit enemy units. 2+ DP's with either a 4++ or 5+++ depending if you go Tzeentch or Slaanesh. Only thing weak in IW is the 6+++ strattagem that's patently weak and the lack of mobile artillery tanks. Write to GW, maybe they'll issue some sort of "Armory of the Legions" article in WD or something and add Basilisks/Medusa's to the IW army list?

Demantiae wrote:
WE are strong. WE Zerkers are strong as feth. But they're a one-dimensional faction. Your WE army is consisting of 50%+ Zerkers and some stuff to support them (maybe Rhino's, a bit of shooting to take out tanks quickly, perhaps some Khorne Daemons). You're just plonking your models on the table and then telling your opponent flatly and calmly that you're charging everything at him, each tun, every turn. Until he's dead. There's very little subtlety. Sure you have to micro model placement in combat and employ detailed and intricate consolidation moves but that';s the extent of your tactical dealings. You're just gonna charge stuff. Until it dies! There's little out-manoeuvring to be done, little flanking or genius level deep striking. You just wanna charge stuff. Until it's dead! If WE weren't extremely good at charging stuff until it's dead then the faction wouldn't work at all.

But this is all balanced byt hr fact that WE can't shoot for gak, they don't do psychic and if you can shoot them before they reach charge range they auto-lose the game. The reason they're so good and have so many attacks is they're meant to mangle that 50 man conscript squad roadblock you placed down in a single turn. No fething around, you're not roadblocking WE baby! You give them massed chaff they just eat them as an appetizer. All those attacks fall down when you properly space out your units so they can't multi-charge or consolidate into your key units though. A properly positioned defence will negate many of the WE advantages. The only problem is you'd have to feed them chaff each turn, one at a time to slow them down. But spending all those points on chaff leaves you with less for the good stuff. If you load up heavy on decent shooting units to blow WE off the table then they'll probably get into your gunlines before you can do the job, without spending all those points on chaff.

WE are gonna punish hard armies that don't take chaff, and they're gonna reduce the effectiveness of those that do because they demand you take double chaff to have any chance of slowing these bastards down!

WE aren't subtle but they do force some horrible decisions to be made by those fighting them. They're one-dimensional but they take the initiative out of your opponents hand and force them to play your game. And an experienced WE player will now exactly how to deal with a chaff defence. I like it. WE will play very fluffy now and be super effective. I think people are getting carried away by adding up all those attacks and multiplying them by three though. Your Zerkers are rarely getting to do that. Once people work out how to set up a defence you might struggle to even get your second round of hits in. But they're there, just in case you whiff that first round of attacks vs a 50 man conscript sqaud. And in case the second round whiffs too. You always have the third round that should actually finish them off and allow you to finally consolidate into the tank you wanted to hit in the first place. 8/10 Zerkers will probably only attack once in a round, the purpose of the second round is to finish off anything still standing or to allow for crazy multi-charges to overun a gunline or tightly packed defence.

I love how you managed to sum it up. It makes the army sound like it wants to do it's own thing (that is, mindlessly charge at the opponent every single turn) and you just have to make the best of the situation, even if it's less than optimal. Which is exactly how an army of frothing berserk warriors should play like.

Humm - so - how many attacks are we looking at if they just charge and they don't have any stategems? 8?