Ok, I don't play orks but I've put a few things together that looks like a huge benefit to orks in the near future: flyer nerfs and Chapter Approved release.
Flyer spam has been nerfed obviously, which was much needed for orks with their lack of options for flyer removal.
But I have seen the new Chapter Approved options ignored as a major catalyst for ork success. Primarily the change of rules for who goes first. See, we are playing a game now where going second is usually an uphill battle. For orks, they are generally built to have lots of units. I don't know a single ork player to have gone first in 8th yet. With the upcoming change (least units gets a +1 to a rolloff instead of auto first), orks will start seeing first shots, which is huge.
I'm not saying orks don't have issues with options, points, or balance. But I do see a huge win spike in the near future. When your Trukks aren't getting killed in your deployment zone, or when you Jump and fail your charge and aren't eating two rounds of shooting phases before assaulting, you have more effective options available. Orks have many rules based on model count. When those are dwindled before they get a chance to use them, they lose effectiveness quickly.
Just my 2 cents since I see a lot of doom and gloom for ork players.
Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor, or flyers, in any capacity.
They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.
Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.
I heard someone say the new Chapter approved stuff only applies to some new mission types released in the same issue, so perhaps a lot of Ork players won't even get these benefits.
Besides, I don't think this new stuff will lead to too many Ork wins: locally my WE army and my friend's IG army have been top without flyer spam and only going 1st about 50% of the time and I've only lost to Orks once (my first game against Orks this edition) and the IG player has never lost against Orks.
(Also, Ork boyz are trash in my meta. Morka/Gorkanaughts, Cans, Mek Guns, Mega Nobz are doing far better)
They will probably be nerfed when the codex comes.
I have a feeling that anything good in the ork codex (Weirdboyz, Boyz, Stormboyz) will get nerfed and they will give minor buffs to units that need HUGE buffs and say "Good Enough" and then GW will sit there for another 3 years and wonder why Ork players aren't placing well in tournaments.
Nothing screams success like a heavily over priced artillery piece with a 5+ save, T5 and when it shoots averages 3-4 shots, 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds. Ohh and has a 1/6 chance to inflict a mortal wound on itself, unless of course the target has negative hit modifiers, then you could have a 1/3rd or even a 1/2 chance to kill yourself. Not to even touch on the aforementioned kill points issue.
Nothing screams success like a heavily over priced artillery piece with a 5+ save, T5 and when it shoots averages 3-4 shots, 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds. Ohh and has a 1/6 chance to inflict a mortal wound on itself, unless of course the target has negative hit modifiers, then you could have a 1/3rd or even a 1/2 chance to kill yourself. Not to even touch on the aforementioned kill points issue.
It's 10 points more than a marine with a las cannon. Lets do a surivability check.
Marine with las cannon = 1 T4 3+ save wound
Mek Gun = 5 T5 5+ save wounds +5 grots
Pretty sure there is no issue of cost for survivability here.
Damage vs rhino comparison
KMC - 1.5 D
Las Cannon - 1.37D
Hummm - more effecitve than las cannons vs rhinos. Thats just average too - KMC damage potential is much higher.
fe40k wrote: Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor
Pardon?
Tankbustas in a wagon.
Or flyers, in any capacity.
Uh, they do have aircraft, Coptas and Stormboyz can assault aircraft.
They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.
Warboss and Mek and a few squads of some 30 odd boyz works with no concerns for leadership checks.
Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.
Kommandos can add a fair bit of pressure sneaking in.
They had no problem being a major disruption to any give gunline.
Being out of 6" of other Orks is their main problem if they take a beating.
I had a pretty good list of marines and found I could not shoot enough to kill them all.
Assault cannons and the Predator autocannon seemed to be the best for thinning the herd.
BUT with AC being within 24 of those guys advancing all the time due to assault weapons gets a bit risky.
Xenomancers wrote: Who plays with kill points really - this isn't 5th eddition? Also - who can shoot at long ranged arty when they have 90 boys in their face?
Nothing screams success like a heavily over priced artillery piece with a 5+ save, T5 and when it shoots averages 3-4 shots, 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds. Ohh and has a 1/6 chance to inflict a mortal wound on itself, unless of course the target has negative hit modifiers, then you could have a 1/3rd or even a 1/2 chance to kill yourself. Not to even touch on the aforementioned kill points issue.
It's 10 points more than a marine with a las cannon. Lets do a surivability check.
Marine with las cannon = 1 T4 3+ save wound
Mek Gun = 5 T5 5+ save wounds +5 grots
Pretty sure there is no issue of cost for survivability here.
Damage vs rhino comparison
KMC - 1.5 D
Las Cannon - 1.37D
Hummm - more effecitve than las cannons vs rhinos. Thats just average too - KMC damage potential is much higher.
It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.
Xenomancers wrote: Who plays with kill points really - this isn't 5th eddition? Also - who can shoot at long ranged arty when they have 90 boys in their face?
Nothing screams success like a heavily over priced artillery piece with a 5+ save, T5 and when it shoots averages 3-4 shots, 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds. Ohh and has a 1/6 chance to inflict a mortal wound on itself, unless of course the target has negative hit modifiers, then you could have a 1/3rd or even a 1/2 chance to kill yourself. Not to even touch on the aforementioned kill points issue.
It's 10 points more than a marine with a las cannon. Lets do a surivability check.
Marine with las cannon = 1 T4 3+ save wound
Mek Gun = 5 T5 5+ save wounds +5 grots
Pretty sure there is no issue of cost for survivability here.
Damage vs rhino comparison
KMC - 1.5 D
Las Cannon - 1.37D
Hummm - more effecitve than las cannons vs rhinos. Thats just average too - KMC damage potential is much higher.
Mek Gun = T5 with 5 Wounds and a 5+ save, Grots count as a second unit entirely, And grots can only be targeted if they are the CLOSEST unit. So right off the bat either remove the 5 grots, OR keep them in front of the gun where a single volley of bolters can wipe them out and make the gun useless. Next. Lascannon Vs Rhino. hits on 3s so 2/3rd chance to hit. Wounds on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound, Does -3AP and D6 so the rhino has a 1/6th chance to save and will inflict 3.5 wounds if all that goes through on average. KMK(not KMC) has D6 shots, average roll is 3.5, hits on 4s, so averages 1-2 hits, wounds on 3s so 2/3rd chance or 4/3rd chance to wound, also has -3 AP so good chance to negate that armor and does D3 damage which averages 2. So the math is slightly in favor of the KMK you are right, of course you forget that leadership is an issue, as is the fact that it has shorter range and the ohh so important fact that the KMK has ZERO buffs it can benefit from. Put that same Lascannon next to girlyman or another SM character with rerolls and suddenly the math changes dramatically.
And as has already been pointed out, that dev Marine will be hiding in cover unless you are being silly. So he has a 2+ save not a 3+.
So given all of that and the fact that the Mek gun is basically a throwaway backfield support unit, my point stands, it isn't good. And just to put the nail firmly in that coffin, last edition Mek Gunz were significantly cheaper, had 3+ saves and T7 and people STILL weren't using them in tournament lists that often.
It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.
Shooting at devastors in cover with no AP weapons is not very effective.
Use the high AP stuff or a hand full of that 100+ boys lurking / jumping around.
As Ork it`s easy to shield you backyard Gunline from Deepstriking stuff + look out for objectives. The marines with lower body count will have a harder time doing that.
Also loosing 1 KMK is no big deal but that Devastor getting smashed with his buddies means about 200 points going down.
And that unit will go down that moment you get something on their doorstep.
Moreover a table with terrain as it should be gives you plenty of places to put that KMK and use LOS blockers / cover. Not to mention all the high priority stuff in mixed lists thats stomping on the marines frontyard.
Plus that said Devastor squad will give you at least 4+ Mek Guns / Big Guns + the extra Grotz for the same points.
Huge advantage for backyard screening, objective camping and playing maelstrom.
As additional bonus the Grot Gunners won`t be shot of your objective with their "take cover" rule and sit on them like ticks.
Thats the exact reason why i cant take all the "orks are so bad" comparisons in vacuum serious. There are a lot more factors besides pure DPP.
Not saying we can pump out dat fine dakka like an IG Gunline or an Gulliman Donut of Death - but we can still handle ourselfes pretty well when it comes to shooting.
fe40k wrote: Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor
Pardon? Tankbustas in a wagon.
10 Tankbustas w/2 Squigs in a barebones wagon with nothing else on it or in it = 351pts. You are also providing your opponent with a nice juicy target for his Dedicated anti-tank weapons which can't shoot anything else effectively because the only competitive build is spamming T4 Ork boyz. So congrats you just handed your opponent about 20% of your list without him having to do anything.
Ohh and if by some miracle you get those 10 tankbustas in range of an enemy Tank, say a Rhino for instance. 10 tankbustas = 5hits, wounding 3s = 3-4 wounds, -2 AP = 2-3 wounds so 6-9 wounds on an enemy tank, then the squigs finish it off if you are lucky. YAY you just killed a 70pt transport for the low low cost of 351pts. In case you are missing my point, you are paying Imperial Knight Titan prices for the ability to kill a vehicle 1 time, because unless your opponent is being ridiculous with his list building your vehicle won't survive past turn 2.
Or flyers, in any capacity.
Uh, they do have aircraft, Coptas and Stormboyz can assault aircraft.
The only ork flyer that is capable of hitting a flyer reliably is the Dakkajet, if you max it out with all guns you have 18 S6 -1AP 1 damage shots, which hit a flyer on 5s so 6 hits, at S6 you are most likely wounding on 4s or 5s, most likely 5s since Stormravens are the most popular right now. SO that gives you 2-3 wounds, against that 3+ save it gets turned into a 4+ so 1-2 wounds AT THE MOST. So just need to bring about 10 to guarantee a stormraven kill....
Deff Koptas? K, First off i assume you want it to have a Killsaw to give it any kind of chance at hurting a Flyer. Going under the premise that you some how manage to catch up to a flyer you then fire its twin rokkitz at the flyer which hit on 6s, so you probably miss with both, then you assault, zero overwatch because reasons, That Kopta then hits you with 2 attacks hitting on 4s so 1 hit, wounding on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound 1 time, the AP negates your armor so 2/3rd chance to inflict 2 damage. That build also costs 111pts, So you need about 7 or 8 of these to kill a Stormraven.
Stormboyz? HAHAHAHAHA, you won't catch a flyer with Stormboyz, but if you do, 30 stormboyz have 90 attacks, 60 hits, 20 wounds against a 3= save = 6-7 wounds so you will need to do this TWICE to kill the flyer. Ohh and 30 stormboyz = 240pts.
So yes, Orkz have NO answer to flyers.
They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.
Warboss and Mek and a few squads of some 30 odd boyz works with no concerns for leadership checks.
That is literally what he just said, Tons of boyz with a few minor buffs is the only successful build at the moment. You can replace Boyz with Stormboyz but its basically the same thing just faster.
Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.
Kommandos can add a fair bit of pressure sneaking in. They had no problem being a major disruption to any give gunline. Being out of 6" of other Orks is their main problem if they take a beating.
No the main problem of Kommandos is their complete lack of function beyond being distracting. Kommandos are fielded in MSU style 1 Nob 2 Boyz and 2 Burnas. That is a grand total of 3 pistol shots in the shooting phase (burnas will be out of range) and in CC you have 4 S5 attacks, 6 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2 AP attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s and 4s. Against a Tactical Marine the nob will hit twice and wound twice on average, the boyz will hit 4 times and wound 2 times, the Burnas will hit 2.66 times and wound 1.33 times, so you have 4 regular wounds which averages 1 dead Marine and 1 -2 AP which if generous will give you a grand total of 2 dead Marines. Of course that is also not factoring in overwatch which generally will kill 1 kommando at least So leadership isn't a concern, its a combination of lack of dakka, lack of choppiness and lack of durability. Leadership is a 4th concern at most.
I had a pretty good list of marines and found I could not shoot enough to kill them all. Assault cannons and the Predator autocannon seemed to be the best for thinning the herd. BUT with AC being within 24 of those guys advancing all the time due to assault weapons gets a bit risky.
So what you are saying is that Horde is hard to beat at the moment...Yes we know, that is why we build our entire army around 90-150 Boyz.
It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.
Shooting at devastors in cover with no AP weapons is not very effective. Use the high AP stuff or a hand full of that 100+ boys lurking / jumping around.
As Ork it`s easy to shield you backyard Gunline from Deepstriking stuff + look out for objectives. The marines with lower body count will have a harder time doing that. Also loosing 1 KMK is no big deal but that Devastor getting smashed with his buddies means about 200 points going down. And that unit will go down that moment you get something on their doorstep.
Moreover a table with terrain as it should be gives you plenty of places to put that KMK and use LOS blockers / cover. Not to mention all the high priority stuff in mixed lists thats stomping on the marines frontyard. Plus that said Devastor squad will give you at least 4+ Mek Guns / Big Guns + the extra Grotz for the same points. Huge advantage for backyard screening, objective camping and playing maelstrom. As additional bonus the Grot Gunners won`t be shot of your objective with their "take cover" rule and sit on them like ticks.
Thats the exact reason why i cant take all the "orks are so bad" comparisons in vacuum serious. There are a lot more factors besides pure DPP. Not saying we can pump out dat fine dakka like an IG Gunline or an Gulliman Donut of Death - but we can still handle ourselfes pretty well when it comes to shooting.
The only competitive ork build is horde style either with Boyz or stormboyz. There is exactly ZERO back line support for those Mek Gunz, in other words there is no shield. If the enemy can deep strike you will lose those KMKs quick, fast and in a hurry. You as an Ork player wont reverse the course of a 30 Boy squad to kill a deep striking unit or 3 so you have essentially given them the gift of your backfield AND a couple hundred points of Crap ranged support. Unless of course you are saying the Ork player has purchased a big mob of Grots to bubble wrap those gunz, in which case you have added another 90pts to their cost. Let me know when a Tournament has an Ork winner or the #1 ork placed army is filled with Mek Gunz.
SM players really need to try 4-5 games using orks. Really. Now even KMKs have become good...
I use them but not as a gun line, they basically have the same role of gretchins. Objective campers, nothing more. If they manage to cause a few wounds good, but two gunz are 96 points and only 2D6 shots, which means an average of 7 shots and an average of 3-4 hits. Against any kind of vehicle or high T guy they can inflict a couple of wounds, each causing D3 damage, so 4 wounds stripped on average. 2-3 lascannons can cause the same damage while being more durable, cheaper and with better range. For the same points lascannons are way more effective.
Semper makes some great points.
I struggle with games that are over 1K points because at that level Orks have no where near the efficiency as the enemy. Do I have to remind everyone the Mork/gork is almost the same price as a Knight (and more than some of the monsters and larger units in other factions) but yet have no where near the effectiveness. It baffles me how GW looked at these points and went "Yeah, they seem fine!" I have no doubt GW Play tested they just didn't play test orks.
To answer the unspoken question posed in the title of the thread:
No, sir, you won't see an "ork influx". Orks have been this way since the index launched, and no influx yet. They won't get their book for a while. MAYBE if they get their book they'll see a surge in popularity. But no guarantee.
Orks, as they are right now, suck, even with their one viable build they're worse off than almost every other army.
SemperMortis wrote: 10 Tankbustas w/2 Squigs in a barebones wagon with nothing else on it or in it = 351pts. You are also providing your opponent with a nice juicy target for his Dedicated anti-tank weapons which can't shoot anything else effectively because the only competitive build is spamming T4 Ork boyz. So congrats you just handed your opponent about 20% of your list without him having to do anything. Ohh and if by some miracle you get those 10 tankbustas in range of an enemy Tank, say a Rhino for instance. 10 tankbustas = 5hits, wounding 3s = 3-4 wounds, -2 AP = 2-3 wounds so 6-9 wounds on an enemy tank, then the squigs finish it off if you are lucky. YAY you just killed a 70pt transport for the low low cost of 351pts. In case you are missing my point, you are paying Imperial Knight Titan prices for the ability to kill a vehicle 1 time, because unless your opponent is being ridiculous with his list building your vehicle won't survive past turn 2.
Yeah, it took a great deal to kill it.
And in one round of firing they vaporized a Dreadnaught.
Maybe he was really lucky, but yeah, the only hard counter for that was keep the freaking vehicles well out of 24" range.
The only ork flyer that is capable of hitting a flyer reliably is the Dakkajet, if you max it out with all guns you have 18 S6 -1AP 1 damage shots, which hit a flyer on 5s so 6 hits, at S6 you are most likely wounding on 4s or 5s, most likely 5s since Stormravens are the most popular right now. SO that gives you 2-3 wounds, against that 3+ save it gets turned into a 4+ so 1-2 wounds AT THE MOST. So just need to bring about 10 to guarantee a stormraven kill....
That is precisely what was fielded against me is the Dakka-jet.
Not every time a marine player fields a Stormraven but it sure is a tempting replacement for a Land Raider Crusader.
You are also writing from the premise of the one unit is responsible for the entire kill.
Flyers due to their need to move so-far do become targets of opportunity.
Deff Koptas? K, First off i assume you want it to have a Killsaw to give it any kind of chance at hurting a Flyer. Going under the premise that you some how manage to catch up to a flyer you then fire its twin rokkitz at the flyer which hit on 6s, so you probably miss with both, then you assault, zero overwatch because reasons, That Kopta then hits you with 2 attacks hitting on 4s so 1 hit, wounding on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound 1 time, the AP negates your armor so 2/3rd chance to inflict 2 damage. That build also costs 111pts, So you need about 7 or 8 of these to kill a Stormraven.
Again, the buggers get a few hits in and any aircraft is busy trying to keep units off of them while the boys keep slogging along.
Stormboyz? HAHAHAHAHA, you won't catch a flyer with Stormboyz, but if you do, 30 stormboyz have 90 attacks, 60 hits, 20 wounds against a 3= save = 6-7 wounds so you will need to do this TWICE to kill the flyer. Ohh and 30 stormboyz = 240pts.
Target of opportunity again, the flyers basically have to do laps or fly off the board.
BUT yes with a bit of thought, your opponent may find a way to position the flyer out of reach.
Plus Ohhy yeah Stormboyz are expensive but can jump and choppy up stuff at will.
So yes, Orkz have NO answer to flyers.
Whatever, agree to disagree.
That is literally what he just said, Tons of boyz with a few minor buffs is the only successful build at the moment. You can replace Boyz with Stormboyz but its basically the same thing just faster.
Because their main #1 buff is they have zero morale issues if within 6" of any 20+ model mob and with some help with the boss.
No the main problem of Kommandos is their complete lack of function beyond being distracting. Kommandos are fielded in MSU style 1 Nob 2 Boyz and 2 Burnas. That is a grand total of 3 pistol shots in the shooting phase (burnas will be out of range) and in CC you have 4 S5 attacks, 6 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2 AP attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s and 4s. Against a Tactical Marine the nob will hit twice and wound twice on average, the boyz will hit 4 times and wound 2 times, the Burnas will hit 2.66 times and wound 1.33 times, so you have 4 regular wounds which averages 1 dead Marine and 1 -2 AP which if generous will give you a grand total of 2 dead Marines. Of course that is also not factoring in overwatch which generally will kill 1 kommando at least So leadership isn't a concern, its a combination of lack of dakka, lack of choppiness and lack of durability. Leadership is a 4th concern at most.
You are attacking marines why?
Didn't you just dismiss Ork artillery due to deep-strike?
Same darn thing applies.
My opponent was quite happy to jump the Whirlwind that was hidden away behind some line of sight blocking terrain.
So what you are saying is that Horde is hard to beat at the moment...Yes we know, that is why we build our entire army around 90-150 Boyz.
Yep, 90 was plenty.
The added toys sure made the "distractions" a royal pain as that horde was advancing which sucked back a ton of shots that could have gone elsewhere.
From what I saw, you get those 90 guys down a Warboss and a Mek and you can play around as you see fit after that.
Yes, the horde is the core, but with further supporting units that can hurt the vehicles that typically crank-out the volume of hits, that will support the win.
Adding more bodies to just weather the storm longer is an option but not the only one.
Orks seem great, especially with the new edition giving a lot of credence to weight of fire, but I think the sheer work of assembling 100+ orks will mean meta-chasers probably won't bother. I mean the tyranid swarm can be good too in huge numbers but the only people who are going to assemble and paint all those buggers is people who genuinely like tyranids.
SemperMortis wrote: 10 Tankbustas w/2 Squigs in a barebones wagon with nothing else on it or in it = 351pts. You are also providing your opponent with a nice juicy target for his Dedicated anti-tank weapons which can't shoot anything else effectively because the only competitive build is spamming T4 Ork boyz. So congrats you just handed your opponent about 20% of your list without him having to do anything. Ohh and if by some miracle you get those 10 tankbustas in range of an enemy Tank, say a Rhino for instance. 10 tankbustas = 5hits, wounding 3s = 3-4 wounds, -2 AP = 2-3 wounds so 6-9 wounds on an enemy tank, then the squigs finish it off if you are lucky. YAY you just killed a 70pt transport for the low low cost of 351pts. In case you are missing my point, you are paying Imperial Knight Titan prices for the ability to kill a vehicle 1 time, because unless your opponent is being ridiculous with his list building your vehicle won't survive past turn 2.
Yeah, it took a great deal to kill it.
And in one round of firing they vaporized a Dreadnaught.
Maybe he was really lucky, but yeah, the only hard counter for that was keep the freaking vehicles well out of 24" range.
The only ork flyer that is capable of hitting a flyer reliably is the Dakkajet, if you max it out with all guns you have 18 S6 -1AP 1 damage shots, which hit a flyer on 5s so 6 hits, at S6 you are most likely wounding on 4s or 5s, most likely 5s since Stormravens are the most popular right now. SO that gives you 2-3 wounds, against that 3+ save it gets turned into a 4+ so 1-2 wounds AT THE MOST. So just need to bring about 10 to guarantee a stormraven kill....
That is precisely what was fielded against me is the Dakka-jet.
Not every time a marine player fields a Stormraven but it sure is a tempting replacement for a Land Raider Crusader.
You are also writing from the premise of the one unit is responsible for the entire kill.
Flyers due to their need to move so-far do become targets of opportunity.
Deff Koptas? K, First off i assume you want it to have a Killsaw to give it any kind of chance at hurting a Flyer. Going under the premise that you some how manage to catch up to a flyer you then fire its twin rokkitz at the flyer which hit on 6s, so you probably miss with both, then you assault, zero overwatch because reasons, That Kopta then hits you with 2 attacks hitting on 4s so 1 hit, wounding on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound 1 time, the AP negates your armor so 2/3rd chance to inflict 2 damage. That build also costs 111pts, So you need about 7 or 8 of these to kill a Stormraven.
Again, the buggers get a few hits in and any aircraft is busy trying to keep units off of them while the boys keep slogging along.
Stormboyz? HAHAHAHAHA, you won't catch a flyer with Stormboyz, but if you do, 30 stormboyz have 90 attacks, 60 hits, 20 wounds against a 3= save = 6-7 wounds so you will need to do this TWICE to kill the flyer. Ohh and 30 stormboyz = 240pts.
Target of opportunity again, the flyers basically have to do laps or fly off the board.
BUT yes with a bit of thought, your opponent may find a way to position the flyer out of reach.
Plus Ohhy yeah Stormboyz are expensive but can jump and choppy up stuff at will.
So yes, Orkz have NO answer to flyers.
Whatever, agree to disagree.
That is literally what he just said, Tons of boyz with a few minor buffs is the only successful build at the moment. You can replace Boyz with Stormboyz but its basically the same thing just faster.
Because their main #1 buff is they have zero morale issues if within 6" of any 20+ model mob and with some help with the boss.
No the main problem of Kommandos is their complete lack of function beyond being distracting. Kommandos are fielded in MSU style 1 Nob 2 Boyz and 2 Burnas. That is a grand total of 3 pistol shots in the shooting phase (burnas will be out of range) and in CC you have 4 S5 attacks, 6 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2 AP attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s and 4s. Against a Tactical Marine the nob will hit twice and wound twice on average, the boyz will hit 4 times and wound 2 times, the Burnas will hit 2.66 times and wound 1.33 times, so you have 4 regular wounds which averages 1 dead Marine and 1 -2 AP which if generous will give you a grand total of 2 dead Marines. Of course that is also not factoring in overwatch which generally will kill 1 kommando at least So leadership isn't a concern, its a combination of lack of dakka, lack of choppiness and lack of durability. Leadership is a 4th concern at most.
You are attacking marines why?
Didn't you just dismiss Ork artillery due to deep-strike?
Same darn thing applies.
My opponent was quite happy to jump the Whirlwind that was hidden away behind some line of sight blocking terrain.
So what you are saying is that Horde is hard to beat at the moment...Yes we know, that is why we build our entire army around 90-150 Boyz.
Yep, 90 was plenty.
The added toys sure made the "distractions" a royal pain as that horde was advancing which sucked back a ton of shots that could have gone elsewhere.
From what I saw, you get those 90 guys down a Warboss and a Mek and you can play around as you see fit after that.
Yes, the horde is the core, but with further supporting units that can hurt the vehicles that typically crank-out the volume of hits, that will support the win.
Adding more bodies to just weather the storm longer is an option but not the only one.
It isn't "Agree to disagree" when you are dismissing the counter points I made to your claim, if you want to change your claim to be "Yeah but with all these units we can down a Flyer" thats fine, but then you are looking at a DRASTIC increase in the price of units required to down a single flyer. And that is also COMPLETELY discounting the flyers dakka. A Stormraven can GUT a Boyz mob in 1 turn and has no problem dealing with single Deff Koptas or the occasional mob of Stormboyz. Orks have NO ANSWER to flyers right now because with hard to hit our dakka is reduced in efficiency by 50%. So we are left with killing it in CC and the only unit that is feasible to do that is stormboyz who are CRAP at killing a flyer because the flyer moves 3 times as fast.
To your point about Kommandos attacking Marines, yeah I guess I just play in a significantly more competitive Meta then you do, because none of the SM players I play against leave unsupported units out in the open for me to lock in CC for the game. My last game was against an UltraSmurf gunline with Girlyman in the center of it giving EVERYTHING rerolls. He bubble wrapped his tanks and expensive devestator units in Tacticals/Primaris and Scouts. So why would I assault Marines with Kommandos? because it was the only option beyond keeping 2 units in reserve to cap objectives late round.
Finally on to the Battlewagon with Bustas in it. A Battlewagon has T7, 4+ and what 14wounds? 4 Lascannons with rerolls do 4 hits on average, 4 wounds on average and with -3 AP they negate its save so they then do D6x4 damage which is 14wounds on average. So a single Lascannon Dev Squad can gut a Battlewagon, but if it fails you should have a couple extra guns lying around like a Asscan Razorback or even a Predator with the Pred Auto-Cannon. And it can do it from 48in away(Not the asscan), where as the range of the Wagon is 24. So if you are letting a wagon with Bustas get up on you then you aren't deploying correctly nor are you bringing the right tools to the fight.
The only competitive ork build is horde style either with Boyz or stormboyz. There is exactly ZERO back line support for those Mek Gunz, in other words there is no shield. If the enemy can deep strike you will lose those KMKs quick, fast and in a hurry. You as an Ork player wont reverse the course of a 30 Boy squad to kill a deep striking unit or 3 so you have essentially given them the gift of your backfield AND a couple hundred points of Crap ranged support. Unless of course you are saying the Ork player has purchased a big mob of Grots to bubble wrap those gunz, in which case you have added another 90pts to their cost. Let me know when a Tournament has an Ork winner or the #1 ork placed army is filled with Mek Gunz.
One of the earliest lists in 8th of orkz coming 1st included multiple Big Gunz. Da Jump is better than you realise, you can jump squads of boyz around the table, including back towards your back line if you feel that is necessary, even if they are in combat. The durability of the Mek Gunz is significant, if the grots are being charged then you have time to support them with a jump, and the grots can take up a substantial amount of table space.
You go on to say "because none of the SM players I play against leave unsupported units out in the open for me to lock in CC for the game", you bring double standards into play performance. If you're a bad Ork player who can't support your back line appropriately, don't compare yourself to good SM players who know what they are doing.
Melissia wrote: To answer the unspoken question posed in the title of the thread:
No, sir, you won't see an "ork influx". Orks have been this way since the index launched, and no influx yet. They won't get their book for a while. MAYBE if they get their book they'll see a surge in popularity. But no guarantee.
Orks, as they are right now, suck, even with their one viable build they're worse off than almost every other army.
So you don't see any correlation between Ork win/loss being lower than others and the fact they go second almost every single time in a game where a majority of wins come from armies going first? I can't fathom that Orks wouldn't see a decent increase once they start going first rather than almost always going second. Even without the +1 to the rolloff, they'll still get to go first far more often. Being able to Jump or run Trukks into the enemies face and essentially having 2 turns when the other team has only had 1 at that point compared to the other way around is huge. I'm not going to say they don't have their issues at all, but being able to put Boyz in the enemy's face before they have a chance to whittle them down is a major help. Flyers seem to be the biggest complaint and they aren't even as big a problem with the recent nerfs to them. You'll see the one or two flyers in a game, but nothing like Stormraven spam you've seen before.
fe40k wrote: Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor
Pardon?
Tankbustas in a wagon.
10 Tankbustas w/2 Squigs in a barebones wagon with nothing else on it or in it = 351pts. You are also providing your opponent with a nice juicy target for his Dedicated anti-tank weapons which can't shoot anything else effectively because the only competitive build is spamming T4 Ork boyz. So congrats you just handed your opponent about 20% of your list without him having to do anything.
Ohh and if by some miracle you get those 10 tankbustas in range of an enemy Tank, say a Rhino for instance. 10 tankbustas = 5hits, wounding 3s = 3-4 wounds, -2 AP = 2-3 wounds so 6-9 wounds on an enemy tank, then the squigs finish it off if you are lucky. YAY you just killed a 70pt transport for the low low cost of 351pts. In case you are missing my point, you are paying Imperial Knight Titan prices for the ability to kill a vehicle 1 time, because unless your opponent is being ridiculous with his list building your vehicle won't survive past turn 2.
Or flyers, in any capacity.
Uh, they do have aircraft, Coptas and Stormboyz can assault aircraft.
The only ork flyer that is capable of hitting a flyer reliably is the Dakkajet, if you max it out with all guns you have 18 S6 -1AP 1 damage shots, which hit a flyer on 5s so 6 hits, at S6 you are most likely wounding on 4s or 5s, most likely 5s since Stormravens are the most popular right now. SO that gives you 2-3 wounds, against that 3+ save it gets turned into a 4+ so 1-2 wounds AT THE MOST. So just need to bring about 10 to guarantee a stormraven kill....
Deff Koptas? K, First off i assume you want it to have a Killsaw to give it any kind of chance at hurting a Flyer. Going under the premise that you some how manage to catch up to a flyer you then fire its twin rokkitz at the flyer which hit on 6s, so you probably miss with both, then you assault, zero overwatch because reasons, That Kopta then hits you with 2 attacks hitting on 4s so 1 hit, wounding on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound 1 time, the AP negates your armor so 2/3rd chance to inflict 2 damage. That build also costs 111pts, So you need about 7 or 8 of these to kill a Stormraven.
Stormboyz? HAHAHAHAHA, you won't catch a flyer with Stormboyz, but if you do, 30 stormboyz have 90 attacks, 60 hits, 20 wounds against a 3= save = 6-7 wounds so you will need to do this TWICE to kill the flyer. Ohh and 30 stormboyz = 240pts.
So yes, Orkz have NO answer to flyers.
They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.
Warboss and Mek and a few squads of some 30 odd boyz works with no concerns for leadership checks.
That is literally what he just said, Tons of boyz with a few minor buffs is the only successful build at the moment. You can replace Boyz with Stormboyz but its basically the same thing just faster.
Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.
Kommandos can add a fair bit of pressure sneaking in.
They had no problem being a major disruption to any give gunline.
Being out of 6" of other Orks is their main problem if they take a beating.
No the main problem of Kommandos is their complete lack of function beyond being distracting. Kommandos are fielded in MSU style 1 Nob 2 Boyz and 2 Burnas. That is a grand total of 3 pistol shots in the shooting phase (burnas will be out of range) and in CC you have 4 S5 attacks, 6 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2 AP attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s and 4s. Against a Tactical Marine the nob will hit twice and wound twice on average, the boyz will hit 4 times and wound 2 times, the Burnas will hit 2.66 times and wound 1.33 times, so you have 4 regular wounds which averages 1 dead Marine and 1 -2 AP which if generous will give you a grand total of 2 dead Marines. Of course that is also not factoring in overwatch which generally will kill 1 kommando at least So leadership isn't a concern, its a combination of lack of dakka, lack of choppiness and lack of durability. Leadership is a 4th concern at most.
I had a pretty good list of marines and found I could not shoot enough to kill them all.
Assault cannons and the Predator autocannon seemed to be the best for thinning the herd.
BUT with AC being within 24 of those guys advancing all the time due to assault weapons gets a bit risky.
So what you are saying is that Horde is hard to beat at the moment...Yes we know, that is why we build our entire army around 90-150 Boyz.
It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.
Shooting at devastors in cover with no AP weapons is not very effective.
Use the high AP stuff or a hand full of that 100+ boys lurking / jumping around.
As Ork it`s easy to shield you backyard Gunline from Deepstriking stuff + look out for objectives. The marines with lower body count will have a harder time doing that.
Also loosing 1 KMK is no big deal but that Devastor getting smashed with his buddies means about 200 points going down.
And that unit will go down that moment you get something on their doorstep.
Moreover a table with terrain as it should be gives you plenty of places to put that KMK and use LOS blockers / cover. Not to mention all the high priority stuff in mixed lists thats stomping on the marines frontyard.
Plus that said Devastor squad will give you at least 4+ Mek Guns / Big Guns + the extra Grotz for the same points.
Huge advantage for backyard screening, objective camping and playing maelstrom.
As additional bonus the Grot Gunners won`t be shot of your objective with their "take cover" rule and sit on them like ticks.
Thats the exact reason why i cant take all the "orks are so bad" comparisons in vacuum serious. There are a lot more factors besides pure DPP.
Not saying we can pump out dat fine dakka like an IG Gunline or an Gulliman Donut of Death - but we can still handle ourselfes pretty well when it comes to shooting.
The only competitive ork build is horde style either with Boyz or stormboyz. There is exactly ZERO back line support for those Mek Gunz, in other words there is no shield. If the enemy can deep strike you will lose those KMKs quick, fast and in a hurry. You as an Ork player wont reverse the course of a 30 Boy squad to kill a deep striking unit or 3 so you have essentially given them the gift of your backfield AND a couple hundred points of Crap ranged support. Unless of course you are saying the Ork player has purchased a big mob of Grots to bubble wrap those gunz, in which case you have added another 90pts to their cost. Let me know when a Tournament has an Ork winner or the #1 ork placed army is filled with Mek Gunz.
Who said there are only Big guns back there?
SAG Mek, Lootas, tanks, Grotz - there is plenty of stuff and as i said in my post it is easy for orks to shield your backyard from deep striking units. Especially if you just need to do this until turn 3.
I don´t even need to bubble wrap when there is no space to deepstrike.
Did this a lot and worked really good. Of course you need to adapt after first losses, which will come.
Finally on to the Battlewagon with Bustas in it. A Battlewagon has T7, 4+ and what 14wounds? 4 Lascannons with rerolls do 4 hits on average, 4 wounds on average and with -3 AP they negate its save so they then do D6x4 damage which is 14wounds on average. So a single Lascannon Dev Squad can gut a Battlewagon, but if it fails you should have a couple extra guns lying around like a Asscan Razorback or even a Predator with the Pred Auto-Cannon. And it can do it from 48in away(Not the asscan), where as the range of the Wagon is 24. So if you are letting a wagon with Bustas get up on you then you aren't deploying correctly nor are you bringing the right tools to the fight.
Well it`s 16 wounds and in most cases there will be a KFF Mek.
And since you always like to point out what that all together costs, the same goes for the marines. RG + Devastors and we`re clocking in 500+ which is allready almost 100 points over the battlewaggon + tankbustas + Mek.
Even with RG they average on 3,5 wounds, so a bit over 2 with KFF which will definitly not kill the BW in one turn. Your Predator and Razorback btw add another 300 points.
Then there is the thing with the terrain, which should include LOS blockers, except you meta is wastelands. This should at least safe the BW from the alpha strike, maybe even until turn 2 where he gets in 24".
Unless it gets blown up in 1 turn you can always repair the BW which can sum up to a hand full of extra wounds.
And even if you get it down the BW with that additional tanks, Tankbustas and the Mek are still alive unless you fire with even more stuff (Marines) on them.
So almost 1000 points to bring down a BB and Bustas for 350 points? Don`t see your point.
You're right Hoodwink, going first changes the game. Orkz have roughly a 50% chance to be in CC after a jump, if that is successful you own a large part of the board for objectives or you have charged some heavy artillery. Of course not losing 300 points worth of units before playing also helps. I don't think this will cause an influx of wins, but definitely evens the playing field for Orkz since we are slightly under-performing at the moment.
hollow one wrote: You're right Hoodwink, going first changes the game. Orkz have roughly a 50% chance to be in CC after a jump, if that is successful you own a large part of the board for objectives or you have charged some heavy artillery. Of course not losing 300 points worth of units before playing also helps. I don't think this will cause an influx of wins, but definitely evens the playing field for Orkz since we are slightly under-performing at the moment.
I don't believe they will sky-rocket to the top, but right now on our own statistics thread the Orks are sitting at roughly one win for every two losses. I really feel like they are going to go up to a solid even win loss ratio. That's a pretty big change. The issue with Orks is fairly multi-faceted. There's not a single issue. I'll go back to my other point from the original post as well, Orks gain several benefits from having a model count over a certain number. Going second drastically reduces the chance they get to use those added benefits at all in the game. It's not even like Orks are hopeless right now. They are still getting wins in. I just see them easily being 50/50 when they start going first. Not top of the charts by any means, but a solid competitor.
hollow one wrote: You're right Hoodwink, going first changes the game. Orkz have roughly a 50% chance to be in CC after a jump, if that is successful you own a large part of the board for objectives or you have charged some heavy artillery. Of course not losing 300 points worth of units before playing also helps. I don't think this will cause an influx of wins, but definitely evens the playing field for Orkz since we are slightly under-performing at the moment.
Totally agree with you.
That new objective secured also helps a lot with all the boys rushing into the enemy. They still have the numbers if the enemy has objective secured as well.
It´s a slight bumber for Stormboys / Kommandos if you wanna grab objectives with them and there camps a enemy troops unit with high durability and small body count.
I think Orks need some buffs before they start making gains. Most of their units and weapons are just generally overpriced when considered with the way 8th works.
They're a melee focused army that has access to a lot of cool but unreliable and inaccurate weaponry. That's going to make it hard to balance out I think.
GW really needs to get rid of the whole d6 roll for blast weapons and just go straight to a set amount in my opinion, for all armies.
argonak wrote: I think Orks need some buffs before they start making gains. Most of their units and weapons are just generally overpriced when considered with the way 8th works.
They're a melee focused army that has access to a lot of cool but unreliable and inaccurate weaponry. That's going to make it hard to balance out I think.
GW really needs to get rid of the whole d6 roll for blast weapons and just go straight to a set amount in my opinion, for all armies.
I proposed that GW should have made templates equal to the total number of models in the unit you are attacking up to a maximum value. It's easy, concise, and isn't difficult to figure out. E.g. if you have a Heavy Flamer that is normally Assault d6 and instead would be something like Blast (whatever you want to name them) 8, it would make up to 8 attacks if the unit has 8 or more models. If you use it against a unit of 5 Custodes, you'd only get 5 hits. If you use it against a squad of 30 Boyz, you'd get the full 8 hits. That puts templates back where they were. Templates never hit a model more than a single time without taking wound allocation into play with multiple multi-wound models.
hollow one wrote: You're right Hoodwink, going first changes the game. Orkz have roughly a 50% chance to be in CC after a jump, if that is successful you own a large part of the board for objectives or you have charged some heavy artillery. Of course not losing 300 points worth of units before playing also helps. I don't think this will cause an influx of wins, but definitely evens the playing field for Orkz since we are slightly under-performing at the moment.
Totally agree with you.
That new objective secured also helps a lot with all the boys rushing into the enemy. They still have the numbers if the enemy has objective secured as well.
It´s a slight bumber for Stormboys / Kommandos if you wanna grab objectives with them and there camps a enemy troops unit with high durability and small body count.
Yeah, Orkz will likely be in the running for best troop in the game once they get objective secured. Their cost per model and ability to clear objectives with CC, or just outnumber and take it anyway, will be a huge boon. Plus their mobility with Da Jump is just bonkers.
One of the earliest lists in 8th of orkz coming 1st included multiple Big Gunz. Da Jump is better than you realise, you can jump squads of boyz around the table, including back towards your back line if you feel that is necessary, even if they are in combat. The durability of the Mek Gunz is significant, if the grots are being charged then you have time to support them with a jump, and the grots can take up a substantial amount of table space.
You go on to say "because none of the SM players I play against leave unsupported units out in the open for me to lock in CC for the game", you bring double standards into play performance. If you're a bad Ork player who can't support your back line appropriately, don't compare yourself to good SM players who know what they are doing.
A Good ork player doesn't keep his army in the backfield because the only competitive units are CC oriented, so if you are camping in the back guarding some useless Mek Gunz you have already given up. Do you play orkz? I am not trying to be mean but honestly if you do and you keep your army back you must have a W/L ratio of 0. That or your meta is so lackluster that you can get away with that kind of strategy.
As far as "Da Jump" Yes you can Jump 1 unit a turn, Its very useful and I use it in my tournament lists every single time, I don't underestimate it, however you seem to think you should be jumping units backwards in order to protect those Mek Gunz... The durability of the Mek gun is non-existent. T5 with a 5+ Save isn't durable. Its only "Durable" because of its relatively high wound count, which i guess I need to remind you is not as durable as you think since there are so many weapons with multiple damage. Hell a Lascannon has a 1/3rd chance to 1 shot the thing.
Who said there are only Big guns back there?
SAG Mek, Lootas, tanks, Grotz - there is plenty of stuff and as i said in my post it is easy for orks to shield your backyard from deep striking units. Especially if you just need to do this until turn 3.
I don´t even need to bubble wrap when there is no space to deepstrike.
Did this a lot and worked really good. Of course you need to adapt after first losses, which will come.
Ahh, so instead of having 1 or 2 cheap objective grabbing units you are doubling down and investing in a gunline for orkz. Ork Gunzlines are absolute trash right now. SAG Big Mekz are 100pts and have a D6 shot S2D6 weapon that only does D3 damage. The average D6 roll is 3.5 which means you will on average hit 1 time with it, so you are paying 100pts for a single shot S7 (average) weapon that only does D3 damage. Lootas? You can't field lootas unless you put them in a trukk or a wagon because they die to a stiff breeze. So you are spending 170pts for 10 lootas and another 80ish pts for a Trukk, those 10 lootas give you 20 shots on average, 6.6 hits on average and against a T7 vehicle 3 wounds on average at -1 AP and 2 damage. I have no idea what you are using for Tanks unless you are equipping a wagon with lots of gunz which is a massive waste of points.
Well it`s 16 wounds and in most cases there will be a KFF Mek.
And since you always like to point out what that all together costs, the same goes for the marines. RG + Devastors and we`re clocking in 500+ which is allready almost 100 points over the battlewaggon + tankbustas + Mek.
Even with RG they average on 3,5 wounds, so a bit over 2 with KFF which will definitly not kill the BW in one turn. Your Predator and Razorback btw add another 300 points.
Then there is the thing with the terrain, which should include LOS blockers, except you meta is wastelands. This should at least safe the BW from the alpha strike, maybe even until turn 2 where he gets in 24".
Unless it gets blown up in 1 turn you can always repair the BW which can sum up to a hand full of extra wounds.
And even if you get it down the BW with that additional tanks, Tankbustas and the Mek are still alive unless you fire with even more stuff (Marines) on them.
So almost 1000 points to bring down a BB and Bustas for 350 points? Don`t see your point.
Well since we are playing the points game, The big Mek with KFF adds another 75pts to that total so your math would be almost 1,000pts can INSTA Kill 425pts of the enemy on turn 1. That is a pretty damned good trade off in my books. The big difference you are missing in that equation is that at the end of that 1 turn the Ork player is now down almost 25% of a 2000pt list and the enemy is unhurt. That seems to be a rather massive disadvantage to your train of thought.
I would personally jump boyz back to protect my Mek Gunz if they were getting deepstriked, especially if the gunz were on an objective and also if i needed the gunz to penetrate some tough targets. However, if my opponent dropped half their army behind me I would reconsider, and likely win the assault across the other side of the board. It would be a consideration on how much resources they were spending on the target. If i was worried for this eventuality, I would place my weirdboyz accordingly.
I almost feel like you allocate the opponent free resources in your mind. It's like, when an opponent dedicates deepstrikes or shooting toward your artillery it's free for them, it doesn't cost them a units turn of shooting or moving, or even placement. But if we orkz send boyz back to defend, it costs us SO MUCH it's not even worth doing!
What if it cost me 100 points in boyz to jump back and hold off 200 points in terminators deepstriking? Unlikely, but definitely worth doing. Would that be okay with you? Or perhaps I turn my 20 stormboyz around, that's 160+ points.
You clearly have your way you like to play, run forward, if you're not doing that "you have already given up". But maybe you should open your mind to alternative play styles, maybe your predictability is causing you problems on the table? I don't know man, just a suggestion.
Those who say big/mek gunz are good at killing something have probably never fielded them. It's easy to calculate that you need ~5 times the price of a razorback to kill it with KMK. And big/mek gunz have a serious issue of being operated by ld5 grots. A single marine outflanking the gun model can easilly wipe the grot squad and thus the guns too. ANY mellee will wipe them. I mean really any mellee. If you do need some punch to get through a couple t4 3+ armor models with re-rollable ld 7-8, t2 and 6+ armor with ld5 just doesn't hold up to any punch at all. Comparing them to lazcannon devastators is also pretty pointless cause devastators will always be in cover and have 2+ armor and still be able to shoot and will require high ap weaponry to get removed and will probably not insta-die in mellee and will be able to move properly...and have a source of re-rolls upping their performance.
I'm not telling ork gunz are a bad unit - on the contrary, they're a pretty ok unit but not for shooting. They're used to score backfield objectives and they notably do it better than just grots most of the time. But the fact that they have some shooting is just an afterthought. It's a bad idea to get more than a couple guns cause you're taking away from what's really working and is the backbone of an ork army. Boyz.
A Good ork player doesn't keep his army in the backfield because the only competitive units are CC oriented, so if you are camping in the back guarding some useless Mek Gunz you have already given up. Do you play orkz? I am not trying to be mean but honestly if you do and you keep your army back you must have a W/L ratio of 0. That or your meta is so lackluster that you can get away with that kind of strategy.
As far as "Da Jump" Yes you can Jump 1 unit a turn, Its very useful and I use it in my tournament lists every single time, I don't underestimate it, however you seem to think you should be jumping units backwards in order to protect those Mek Gunz... The durability of the Mek gun is non-existent. T5 with a 5+ Save isn't durable. Its only "Durable" because of its relatively high wound count, which i guess I need to remind you is not as durable as you think since there are so many weapons with multiple damage. Hell a Lascannon has a 1/3rd chance to 1 shot the thing.
How do you get to a 1/3 chance of killing it in one shot? 2/3 chance to hit, 2/3 chance to wound 1/6 chance of doing 6 wounds is a 2/27 chance or a 7% chance. On average it will take 4 lascannons to kill a single gun. 4 shots x 2/3 to hit x 2/3 to wound x 3.5 average wounds = 6.22 wounds. If they shoot anti infantry stuff at it, great it isn't shooting your horde. If they can deep strike in a place where they can shoot gretchin you are setting up wrong.
On the other hand a KMK does do 1 wound on average to a devastator in cover.
Don't forget that each of your gunz is a seperate squad too, so if the entire lascannon squad shoots at one they could overkill it, if they split fire there is a decent chance of only wounding the guns which then can still fire at full capacity unless your opponent dedicates more firepower at them.
I think what orks really need is more toyz on the board. I mean a lot of things should be cheaper than now in order to make bikers, meganobz, artillery, nobz, buggies and other units really viable and a concrete alternative to the horde of boyz.
I'm fine with orks profile and stats, but we should be able to stick more bodies into our lists, and not only the cheap T4 6++ bodies.
I'm currently playing with 3BWs full of boyz and ghaz, 2 trukks full of bustas, 2 KMKs, biker boss and biker kff mek. With only 8 drops I manage to go first several times, which is a big deal in 8th edition but sometimes I face lists with tons of anti tank that can cripple my army and win the game turn 1 if I go second.
The only real TAC orks list at the moment is the one with boyz+buffs. But it's terribly boring to play and the most competitive lists would beat it anyway.
I've always enjoyed playing orks, but even if this edition is clearly better than the previous one, I had more fun with 7ed orks to be honest. We could field mid tier lists with the bullyboyz formation, bikers spam and/or 8+ trukks with boyz/bustas/meganobz. 5 lobbas were also deadly and cheap, another amazing unit. Sometimes even the blitz brigade formation with 5 BWs worked. Now we litterally have only boyz. And stormboyz, which are faster boyz. For the first time in my life I have more fun with my other armies.
hollow one wrote: I would personally jump boyz back to protect my Mek Gunz if they were getting deepstriked, especially if the gunz were on an objective and also if i needed the gunz to penetrate some tough targets. However, if my opponent dropped half their army behind me I would reconsider, and likely win the assault across the other side of the board. It would be a consideration on how much resources they were spending on the target. If i was worried for this eventuality, I would place my weirdboyz accordingly.
I almost feel like you allocate the opponent free resources in your mind. It's like, when an opponent dedicates deepstrikes or shooting toward your artillery it's free for them, it doesn't cost them a units turn of shooting or moving, or even placement. But if we orkz send boyz back to defend, it costs us SO MUCH it's not even worth doing!
What if it cost me 100 points in boyz to jump back and hold off 200 points in terminators deepstriking? Unlikely, but definitely worth doing. Would that be okay with you? Or perhaps I turn my 20 stormboyz around, that's 160+ points.
You clearly have your way you like to play, run forward, if you're not doing that "you have already given up". But maybe you should open your mind to alternative play styles, maybe your predictability is causing you problems on the table? I don't know man, just a suggestion.
If you are scooting a blob of boyz backfield to keep the enemy from killing a mek gun or capping an objective in your deployment zone what you have then done is taken away 30 boyz from fighting his main units. My last tournament list was 90 boyz, 40 Stormboyz 35 Kommandos 4 Deff Koptas, 2 Weirdboyz a KFF Big Mek and Grotsnik and Ghaz. If I had to Teleport 30 boyz backwards they would then be used for the rest of the game to hold a backfield objective because at that point there is no viable way to get them back up the field and into combat in a timely manner. 5in movement and 3-4in advance means 3 turns of moving just to recross no mans land. If I did the same with my Stormboyz that means they have been taken away from their primary mission which is to reinforce the boyz and hit the flanks while his main units are distracted hitting boyz. I could drop Kommandos in because I kept all 7 units in reserve, but against most MEQ deep strikers they can't do much.
And I tend to finish in the top 3 of tournaments, even last edition as well. I unfortunately got screwed in my last tournament, I would have won a minor victory against the #1 guy which would have propelled me to 2nd or possibly 1st but the new Marine codex gave him the edge in Obsec infantry. I had 50+ models on the objective, but he had 2 tactical Marines in range
SO what does your tournament list look like and how does it fair in ITC events?
Oh man I might have hit a nerve there sorry, seriously was only a suggestion. I don't understand you man, all you do is complain on these forums about the performance of Orks when at the same time all you're doing is top 3'ing tournaments? You confuse me.
It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.
Shooting at devastors in cover with no AP weapons is not very effective.
Use the high AP stuff or a hand full of that 100+ boys lurking / jumping around.
As Ork it`s easy to shield you backyard Gunline from Deepstriking stuff + look out for objectives. The marines with lower body count will have a harder time doing that.
Also loosing 1 KMK is no big deal but that Devastor getting smashed with his buddies means about 200 points going down.
And that unit will go down that moment you get something on their doorstep.
Moreover a table with terrain as it should be gives you plenty of places to put that KMK and use LOS blockers / cover. Not to mention all the high priority stuff in mixed lists thats stomping on the marines frontyard.
Plus that said Devastor squad will give you at least 4+ Mek Guns / Big Guns + the extra Grotz for the same points.
Huge advantage for backyard screening, objective camping and playing maelstrom.
As additional bonus the Grot Gunners won`t be shot of your objective with their "take cover" rule and sit on them like ticks.
Thats the exact reason why i cant take all the "orks are so bad" comparisons in vacuum serious. There are a lot more factors besides pure DPP.
Not saying we can pump out dat fine dakka like an IG Gunline or an Gulliman Donut of Death - but we can still handle ourselfes pretty well when it comes to shooting.
Ummm.... I'm orks I don't have high AP weapons that actually hit anything. I won't be able to da jump a unit to hit those devastators against a good opponent as 10 scouts can block all deepstriking into the SM fire base very easily, and cost less than whatever I'm shielding my back line with, in addition almost every armies heavy weapons out range the KMKs.
If we are talking about high AP fire power you are looking at probably looking at fewer hits needed to kill the KMK than a devastator squad (2 lascannons can do it pretty reliably they cannot kill the dev squad, they will kill 1 lascannon at best.)
KMK only get cover when 50% obscured so unless they don't have LOS (If they do so do units have to them) they are not likely to get cover.
a lascannon dev squad is 165 (170 with the cherub), For 192 points (more than the dev squad) you get 4 with grots.
If you have a back field objective the grots are nice to have, but if not they are largely useless, and if you only have one back field objective plenty of them are useless.
The range on them is really the big factor though as to be useful they need to deploy a bit forward otherwise they will be outrange by the enemy.
Ork shooting is pretty bad compared to most other armies, KMK are OK, they aren't great and other armies do the same or better for fewer points with more advantages.
1) Chapter approved will help out Orks quite a bit. Not because of the roll off for first turn, but because troops are made ob sec, which benefits Orks more than most armies.
2) The roll off for first turn will not do a lot for Orks, or anyone else for that matter. There is already a 30% chance of seizing initiative with a reroll, so the roll off will not change much.
3) KMKs are not awful, but they are not very good either.
koooaei wrote: Those who say big/mek gunz are good at killing something have probably never fielded them. It's easy to calculate that you need ~5 times the price of a razorback to kill it with KMK. And big/mek gunz have a serious issue of being operated by ld5 grots. A single marine outflanking the gun model can easilly wipe the grot squad and thus the guns too. ANY mellee will wipe them. I mean really any mellee. If you do need some punch to get through a couple t4 3+ armor models with re-rollable ld 7-8, t2 and 6+ armor with ld5 just doesn't hold up to any punch at all. Comparing them to lazcannon devastators is also pretty pointless cause devastators will always be in cover and have 2+ armor and still be able to shoot and will require high ap weaponry to get removed and will probably not insta-die in mellee and will be able to move properly...and have a source of re-rolls upping their performance.
I'm not telling ork gunz are a bad unit - on the contrary, they're a pretty ok unit but not for shooting. They're used to score backfield objectives and they notably do it better than just grots most of the time. But the fact that they have some shooting is just an afterthought. It's a bad idea to get more than a couple guns cause you're taking away from what's really working and is the backbone of an ork army. Boyz.
It's even worse for las cannons...so - it's really not unusual to need to spend about 3-4x the cost of what you are shooting at to bring it down (if it's a tank)
It isn't "Agree to disagree" when you are dismissing the counter points I made to your claim, if you want to change your claim to be "Yeah but with all these units we can down a Flyer" thats fine, but then you are looking at a DRASTIC increase in the price of units required to down a single flyer. And that is also COMPLETELY discounting the flyers dakka. A Stormraven can GUT a Boyz mob in 1 turn and has no problem dealing with single Deff Koptas or the occasional mob of Stormboyz. Orks have NO ANSWER to flyers right now because with hard to hit our dakka is reduced in efficiency by 50%. So we are left with killing it in CC and the only unit that is feasible to do that is stormboyz who are CRAP at killing a flyer because the flyer moves 3 times as fast.
To your point about Kommandos attacking Marines, yeah I guess I just play in a significantly more competitive Meta then you do, because none of the SM players I play against leave unsupported units out in the open for me to lock in CC for the game. My last game was against an UltraSmurf gunline with Girlyman in the center of it giving EVERYTHING rerolls. He bubble wrapped his tanks and expensive devestator units in Tacticals/Primaris and Scouts. So why would I assault Marines with Kommandos? because it was the only option beyond keeping 2 units in reserve to cap objectives late round.
Finally on to the Battlewagon with Bustas in it. A Battlewagon has T7, 4+ and what 14wounds? 4 Lascannons with rerolls do 4 hits on average, 4 wounds on average and with -3 AP they negate its save so they then do D6x4 damage which is 14wounds on average. So a single Lascannon Dev Squad can gut a Battlewagon, but if it fails you should have a couple extra guns lying around like a Asscan Razorback or even a Predator with the Pred Auto-Cannon. And it can do it from 48in away(Not the asscan), where as the range of the Wagon is 24. So if you are letting a wagon with Bustas get up on you then you aren't deploying correctly nor are you bringing the right tools to the fight.
Very well done.
Logic is a bit off but certainly good at applying zingers.
Nice one about leaving unsupported units, yeah, they are nice to have back there but not a primary concern, If I have to leave resources back there not killing things I am "doing it wrong".
If I was leaving 3 Whirlwinds then doubling down would be in order on some bubblewrap.
You are very right Orks do not have a wonderful hard counter to an aircraft that can "gut" an Ork force if left uncontested (unmolested?).
Poor guy has to field some units to keep the darn thing busy.
Yep, Orks sure can be an irritant and pretty much nullify it until the boyz get things done, unless the opposing player chooses to only pick on the juicy targets.
Some 300 odd points wrapped up in a Stormraven, what would you consider a reasonable counter to keep it busy for 3 or 4 turns at least?
The Guilliman example is funny from earlier, you certainly like extreme examples.
Oh yeah, you are darned right you pack marines in around that guy.
Primaris is a nice fit for him being able to fire reasonably on the move.
Gotta love throwing in a lord of war level model in the mix.
So you DO use Kammando's?
I think I am as confused as the other guy when you dismiss what is said as stupid and you are some tournament almost winner using the very stuff I see other people use to some good effect.
Just the threat of a unit appearing in the back yard makes you think real hard on leaving anything behind vulnerable to troops (or just say, meh, it happens, then fine).
I know the math, I have seen it play out with a smart opponent friend who has played Orks for years.
Yeah, a vehicle with Tankbustas were not as accommodating as you identify, good use of terrain and blew stuff up while limiting his exposure to those Devestator lascannons you are so fond of.
As has also been pointed out, you seem to view opponents having no cost to what they field or do not bother to perform the full "Mathhammer" to make your point.
Nevermind that no unit works in isolation, the whole point is making everything a target priority where initially picking on the "easy to kill" stuff seems likes a fool's game with 90 odd troops running around.
If you decided to ONLY field the big horde, it makes decisions a whole lot easier, it is precisely the variety of units that prevents an opponent from optimizing his weapons to kill the horde.
hollow one wrote: Oh man I might have hit a nerve there sorry, seriously was only a suggestion. I don't understand you man, all you do is complain on these forums about the performance of Orks when at the same time all you're doing is top 3'ing tournaments? You confuse me.
So because I do well with my army that I have played for over a decade I can't point out its obvious flaws and the fact that only 1 competitive list exists for it? (2 if you count replacing boyz with stormboyz). Sorry that doesn't make any sense. And ironically you didn't answer my question, what does your tournament list look like? I don't judge a codex by its for fun lists I just it based on tournament competitiveness.
And talizvar, same thing, I judge lists based on tournament level not for fun. And saying an ork gunline or at the least a bunch of ork mek gunz supported by some bubble wrap is competitive is nonsense. You will never see that in a competitive list, the most you will see is someone buying a Mek Gun and camping a backfield objective with it, he wont support it and won't reinforce it.
if you are going to use the context of Orkz for all your points and then refute my claim by saying "But whirlewinds!" then I am going to ignore you because you are moving the goal posts. Supporting ORK stay behind gunz is useless since they are throw away units at best.
What keeps a Storm raven "Busy" in your opinion? Because even top level tournament players haven't found a counter to keep it busy yet, all they do is ignore it and hope they can make up or it by killing his ground forces and capping objectives. Stormboyz are the absolute best counter we have but in order to use them you need to get Stormboyz within range and since stormboyz move 12 +D6 and the Stormraven moves 20-45....good luck catching it.
Girlyman isn't really an extreme since he is so OP that every Marine player is taking him, hell the last tournament i played had SWs being used as Ultrasmurfs because the player wanted those buffs LOL. And LoW's are taken pretty frequently at the tournament level.
Yes I do use Kommandos, but not because the model is useful in its stats, I use it because its ability to appear anywhere during my movement phase is great, A kommando is just a 9pt Boy model with a good ability. But again at the tournament level, you don't see people leaving unsupported gunlines like you seem to run into frequently. The IG player I played kept everything bubble wrapped in Conscripts the entire game, same with the smurf player and the chaos player I played against fielded a lot of cultists to screen his guns and tanks. The only time i was able to use Kommandos for their purpose was against a new Eldar Player who decided to let me kill his Vaul batteries by leaving them alone on a flank for some reason, basically the only time they are useful is against newbies and bad players.
And finally, good for you, you are using anecdotal evidence of a friend against my anecdotal evidence and years of experience. the difference? My opinion is the one being seen at the tournament levels, people aren't bringing BWs full of Tankbustas, they are fielding giant hordes of Stormboyz and Boyz though.
Xenomancers wrote: It's even worse for las cannons...so - it's really not unusual to need to spend about 3-4x the cost of what you are shooting at to bring it down (if it's a tank)
That's true, but you can't afford to bring 400 pt of mek gunz in an ork list cause this way you aren't bringing 400 pt of boyz. They're not compatible cause they don't bring more redundancy - and it's the only reason ork lists kinda work. Also, they're very vulnerable. A single biker will be enough to get rid of a squad of grots with their t2 6+ armor and ld4. A single tac squad will demolish this gunline in mellee.
See, orks NEED redundancy to work. Cause our most powerful stuff is mellee-oriented, not very mobile (boyz) and is pretty squishy. So, it brings a number of restrictions on the list. You can't just mix in a battlewagon, a walker or a trukk. Koptas don't also work for the same reason. And mek gunz become prime targets to anti-tank weaponry and thus are helping the opponent to get his points back. The less boyz you bring - the more you help your opponent.
The all boyz list can be effective - mainly because it twists the current meta. Its not bad if your opponent is spending a lot of points on plasma, melta and lascannons. Mainly because these are largely wasted on 6-9 point infantry.
Which they probably are, because killing vehicles is otherwise difficult and plasma is great versus a wide range of targets.
Its however pretty easy to gear a list to mow down boyz effectively. So if it becomes top tier you will more lists move in that direction and beat it down.
Tyel wrote: I'd be surprised if the meta moved in that way.
The all boyz list can be effective - mainly because it twists the current meta. Its not bad if your opponent is spending a lot of points on plasma, melta and lascannons. Mainly because these are largely wasted on 6-9 point infantry.
Which they probably are, because killing vehicles is otherwise difficult and plasma is great versus a wide range of targets.
Its however pretty easy to gear a list to mow down boyz effectively. So if it becomes top tier you will more lists move in that direction and beat it down.
Pretty much what I have been saying. A couple of Asscan Razorbacks or Stormravens can basically liquefy an Ork horde in short order. The stormravens are especially ridiculous at wiping out hordes. At 12inches (which isn't hard to get at all for something that can move 45 inches) a Stormraven can put out 24 S4 shots, 12 S6 shots, 6 S5 shots and 2 S8 shots. The S6, S5 and S8 shots ignore ork armor as well. SO even without rerolls a stormraven can kill about 17ish orkz a turn. In points terms that is 102pts of orkz in 1 shooting phase. A great tactic I saw a smurf opponent pull against an Ork player at my last tournament was fielding 3 of these, they are great at killing everything so why not take them? But anyway he flew directly next to girlyman turn 1 and fired everything off at max range (Bolters were out of range) turn 2 he went into hover mode because his opponent was fielding green tide (150 Ork Boyz) buffed with Ghaz and some others. But he had 90 of them in one big blob getting buffs, the other 2 he had deep striking and doing something else I can't remember, I think it was trying to outflank and hold an objective, anyway, he had each stormraven target a different mob of boyz in the big blob and killed about 15-18 in each one (rerolls are HUGE, the ork player had painboy and 5++ and still got murdered) what the ork player did though was pull casualties from the rear because he didn't want to increase distance to enemy lines. unfortunately that put him out of range of Ghaz's aura which meant leadership was an issue. 20 casualties +D6 meant 90 boyz died in one turn, worse his characters were all exposed and to far from the other 2 mobz to be useful, game was over turn 3.
Question: Why wouldn't orks be going first? A full sized unit of boys is 180 points before upgrades. As far as a single unit goes, that's a fairly expensive single drop. Even if that's your entire army, it doesn't seem impossible for them to finish deploying first.
SilverAlien wrote: Question: Why wouldn't orks be going first? A full sized unit of boys is 180 points before upgrades. As far as a single unit goes, that's a fairly expensive single drop. Even if that's your entire army, it doesn't seem impossible for them to finish deploying first.
8th goes by drops, tournaments go by drops +1 for rolls.
So your average 2k list has 3-6 units of 30 Boyz, Ghaz, a painboy, a Big Mek with KFF, 1-4 Weirdboyz, Banner Nob and maybe some other crap like Stormboyz or a few units of kommandos. So you usually have 8+ drops. Conversely a SM can get away with 6 or 7 easily.
So since SM had fewer drops he technically gets to go first. in Tournaments you roll off to see who goes first but the person who has the fewest drops gets +1 to their roll.
Footslogging orks are never gonna start first unless they face a MSU army.
If you play with vehicles you might have a change to go first though, my typical list has 8 drops and sometimes I menage to get first turn.
To me is too boring to field the green tide and if I go second with a footslogging army and I face someone with tons of anti infantry like SM with 3 razorbacks and a stormraven (which are all standard units, almost auto-takes) even our most competitive list will struggle a lot.
Of course with many vehicles you may find an opponent with lesser drops than you and tons of anti tank but overall I think having good chances to go first and not getting bored of moving 200 orks is more satisfying than fielding the green tide.
I just wanted to point this out because i think i missed it when I first posted
Ok, I don't play orks but I've put a few things together that looks like a huge benefit to orks in the near future: flyer nerfs and Chapter Approved release.
Flyers didn't get nerfed, the only thing that changed was they don't count as being on the table so you cant take a giant army of flyers, and chapter approved is only giving OBSEC to Ork infantry, which we need but that is situational at best, it doesn't increase orks capabilities, it just helps us hold an objective that we should have already controlled. My own example of that is having 2 tac Marines stealing a Objective from me because they had that rule and I had 50+ models on it
I just looked this up. Last year orks had 1 player in the top 115 of ITC players, he was Ranked 113. This year (2017) we have 1 player in the top 115, he is ranked 103rd. So when people say that orks are doing well and expect more wins, point them to that fact.
SemperMortis wrote: I don't judge a codex by its for fun lists I just it based on tournament competitiveness.
Ah, glad we have that clear.
I am glad you pointed out my experiences with a knowledgeable Ork opponent I have played for decades and your long experience as an Ork player being rather irrelevant (argument from authority is bad practice anyway).
I am unsure how you figure not having artillery or tankbustas and only boyz is the only way to go, I seem to remember a few good lists and glory-be reddit had some stuff:
You can thank me later... They appear to be trying to get lists together that had demonstrable wins in tournaments of within the top 3.
Pretty much everything discussed that you dismissed is there in those lists.
Please feel free to peruse and maybe you can find something that may be of more interest than the green tide.
A Wierdboy or two may help your boyz a bit more.
Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.
SemperMortis wrote: I don't judge a codex by its for fun lists I just it based on tournament competitiveness.
Ah, glad we have that clear.
I am glad you pointed out my experiences with a knowledgeable Ork opponent I have played for decades and your long experience as an Ork player being rather irrelevant (argument from authority is bad practice anyway).
I am unsure how you figure not having artillery or tankbustas and only boyz is the only way to go, I seem to remember a few good lists and glory-be reddit had some stuff:
You can thank me later... They appear to be trying to get lists together that had demonstrable wins in tournaments of within the top 3.
Pretty much everything discussed that you dismissed is there in those lists.
Please feel free to peruse and maybe you can find something that may be of more interest than the green tide.
A Wierdboy or two may help your boyz a bit more.
Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.
Have fun anyway with whatever you are playing.
Good on ya for trying to be helpful, unfortunately you failed at that. If you had checked any of those lists you would have noticed a couple of issues right off the bat. #1 is that the 1st list is just boyz spam....more commonly known as Green Tide. All they have done is change up the accoutrements that support those boyz.
List #2 is a Power Level list, which is why you see Deff Koptas and nobz with every possible upgrade. Last time I checked ITC isn't using power level.
List #3 is a local tournament and judging by his list I wonder if he was accidentally using the rules wrong. Badrukka doesn't convey his aura when embarked and he has a unit of Flashgitz in the wagonz. They also don't benefit from the BWs special rule so they would effectively have been BS5+ models not 4+ with rerolls from Badrukka. But since we don't have any proof of his tournament who knows. Ohh, and this guys also brought 80 Boyz as well so the core of his army was still......Green Tide.
#4 and #5 are the same list and the same person, don't know if the guy messed up or not, but ironically its the best Ork player at LVO who ran.....Green Tide, Just a modified version with Stormboyz instead of Boyz.
And #6 is some weird concoction so YAY you have 1 result that isn't majority Green Tide or an offshoot of Green tide. Of course it placed 38th at BAO not 1st 2nd or 3rd and it went 3/2/1 So not exactly stellar. I have a feeling this list did so well because it was counter meta
SO your reddit site has 1 list that isn't boyz spam and 1 list that used power levels not points. The others are Boyz spam or a variant. Let me know when someone wins a big tournament with Orks and doesn't use 80+ boyz, stormboyz or Kommandos.
Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.
A single stormraven can cripple a mob of boyz per turn and with gree tides there's nothing that orks can do to kill the flyer, not to mention that usually SM have lesser drops than orksWith and go first. 1-2 stormravens are also pretty much TAC so yeah, they are a huge threat at the moment. Guilliman is another popular option and he can give re-rolls to any to hit and to wound rolls for those damned flyers.
Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.
A single stormraven can cripple a mob of boyz per turn and with gree tides there's nothing that orks can do to kill the flyer, not to mention that usually SM have lesser drops than orksWith and go first. 1-2 stormravens are also pretty much TAC so yeah, they are a huge threat at the moment. Guilliman is another popular option and he can give re-rolls to any to hit and to wound rolls for those damned flyers.
Okay, let me figure this one out:
Twin Assault Cannon: 12 shots, 3+ to hit (machine spirit), 3+ to wound (S6 vs T4), assume no saves.
So, 8 hits = 5-6 wounds, assuming no KFF or (giggle) cover.
Now typically there is the choice of HB or MM. Depends on how expensive we want to be. I will go with list tailoring for now...
Twin Heavy Bolter: 6 shots, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, assume no saves.
So 4 hits = 2-3 wounds.
I believe two missiles if I remember correctly: 2 shots, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no saves.
So about 1 hit = 1 wound.
So total dead orks is about 10 of them (being optimistic) going by a rough average there not assuming the evil Dante aura or Guiliman (if he can keep up) help.
So by "cripple" I think when a mob gets below 20 it becomes a critical thing so it is a near thing but I will give it to you (BTW assuming you field 30 at a time, if not, why?).
I will have to go back and see how many points the above Stormraven costs vs the mob of boyz, though a few people seem to like loading them up with rockets so that can vary things a bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: Good on ya for trying to be helpful, unfortunately you failed at that. If you had checked any of those lists you would have noticed a couple of issues right off the bat. #1 is that the 1st list is just boyz spam....more commonly known as Green Tide. All they have done is change up the accoutrements that support those boyz
Yep, good old normal list.
Wait one minute, Weird-boy and "Big Gunz Kannon", I am sorry, were we not discussing artillery at one point??
Plus gasp! some Dakka-jets?
Maybe your #1 is not the same...
List #2 is a Power Level list, which is why you see Deff Koptas and nobz with every possible upgrade. Last time I checked ITC isn't using power level.
They list the points value: of 1006pts but yeah it is an even 50pv.
I am unsure what is being dismissed here.
I like how the Koptas are kitted out but that is a lot of points in 3 models (333!).
List #3 is a local tournament and judging by his list I wonder if he was accidentally using the rules wrong. Badrukka doesn't convey his aura when embarked and he has a unit of Flashgitz in the wagonz. They also don't benefit from the BWs special rule so they would effectively have been BS5+ models not 4+ with rerolls from Badrukka. But since we don't have any proof of his tournament who knows.
A few assumptions here.
You do not know what he is putting in the battlewagons.
Since he got 2 squads of tankbustas and not Flashgitz, I would assume differently.
It would also make more sense of the auras.
Big assumption of local list.
And look, 2 full squads of Boyz with a few good characters to back them up.
Ohh, and this guys also brought 80 Boyz as well so the core of his army was still......Green Tide.
Also to be clear:
I think the Ork core army will always have 90 models (3X30) because it is the best troop model in the game.
What I do not agree with is that to go to 100% boyz in order to win is not a requirement.
Now I need to look back and see if some goal-post moving is going on, but let me say I would be terribly surprised to stare across the table and Orks with squads less than 30... it simply is not done.
#4 and #5 are the same list and the same person, don't know if the guy messed up or not, but ironically its the best Ork player at LVO who ran.....Green Tide, Just a modified version with Stormboyz instead of Boyz
Yep, Stormboyz and for those really impatient a wierdboy and "da jump".
You may have missed the Squiggoth...
And #6 is some weird concoction so YAY you have 1 result that isn't majority Green Tide or an offshoot of Green tide. Of course it placed 38th at BAO not 1st 2nd or 3rd and it went 3/2/1 So not exactly stellar. I have a feeling this list did so well because it was counter meta
I do agree that list is a bit... strange.
SO your reddit site has 1 list that isn't boyz spam and 1 list that used power levels not points. The others are Boyz spam or a variant. Let me know when someone wins a big tournament with Orks and doesn't use 80+ boyz, stormboyz or Kommandos.
Okay, here seems to be that goal-post thing I was talking about.
And again with the dismissing lists for what seem to be trumped up reasons or utter lack of understanding.
Yep 80-90 boys is about right.
We kept talking about the usefulness of other units which you dismiss.
You field 3 units of 30 at about 225 each you have spent a wopping 675pts... now what?
You seem to keep missing this point intentionally or otherwise.
Just spend MOAR on troops, maybe 6 units of them! 180 models at a nice even 1800 points.
Then you miss out on any real flexibility or dealing with objectives BUT you can be happy to have a giant meat shield that is death in CC.
Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.
A single stormraven can cripple a mob of boyz per turn and with gree tides there's nothing that orks can do to kill the flyer, not to mention that usually SM have lesser drops than orksWith and go first. 1-2 stormravens are also pretty much TAC so yeah, they are a huge threat at the moment. Guilliman is another popular option and he can give re-rolls to any to hit and to wound rolls for those damned flyers.
Okay, let me figure this one out:
Twin Assault Cannon: 12 shots, 3+ to hit (machine spirit), 3+ to wound (S6 vs T4), assume no saves.
So, 8 hits = 5-6 wounds, assuming no KFF or (giggle) cover.
Now typically there is the choice of HB or MM. Depends on how expensive we want to be. I will go with list tailoring for now...
Twin Heavy Bolter: 6 shots, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, assume no saves.
So 4 hits = 2-3 wounds.
I believe two missiles if I remember correctly: 2 shots, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no saves.
So about 1 hit = 1 wound.
So total dead orks is about 10 of them (being optimistic) going by a rough average there not assuming the evil Dante aura or Guiliman (if he can keep up) help.
So by "cripple" I think when a mob gets below 20 it becomes a critical thing so it is a near thing but I will give it to you (BTW assuming you field 30 at a time, if not, why?).
I will have to go back and see how many points the above Stormraven costs vs the mob of boyz, though a few people seem to like loading them up with rockets so that can vary things a bit.
You left out the Hurricane Bolters. That is 12 more shots, or 24 if at half range. But at max range in Girlymans aura you get results like this. 12 S6 -1 AP shots = 10-11 Hits. 9-10 wounds. 6 Heavy bolter shots = 5-6 hits, 4-5 wounds. Missiles = 2 hits likely 2 wounds likely no saves. 2 Hurricane bolters = 10-11 hits and 6-7 more wounds (with saves thats 5-6 unsaved). THat brings you to a minimum average of 20 dead boyz and a top end average of 23 Dead Boyz (Add on another 5-6 if in half range) More then enough to wipe the squad unless its near another untouched unit of boyz. If the top lists for Orkz are using 90-120 Boyz the enemy with 2 flyers has killed roughly 1/2 to 1/3rd of your troops in 1 round of shooting, they will also be beyond hurting unless you brought a plethora of Stormboyz...who realistically would have been targeted first by the stormravens unless the SM player is a dunce.
As to your other points, I am not moving the goal posts and nothing you have shown has proven anything I said wrong. Those units are useless EXCEPT as rear objective holders. If they were useful people would be taking them INSTEAD of green tide. Every competitive list barring the 1 weird one was based predominantly on Green tide. And you miss the point where you list the cost of 3 units of boyz. You also add in the weirdboyz, Warbosses, Painboyz and KFF Big Mekz because those units are there solely to buff the green tide most of the time. Not counting those units as part of the green tide is like saying conscripts are amazing and not counting the Commissar into the equation.
Twin Assault Cannon: 12 shots, 3+ to hit (machine spirit), 3+ to wound (S6 vs T4), assume no saves.
So, 8 hits = 5-6 wounds, assuming no KFF or (giggle) cover.
Now typically there is the choice of HB or MM. Depends on how expensive we want to be. I will go with list tailoring for now...
Twin Heavy Bolter: 6 shots, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, assume no saves.
So 4 hits = 2-3 wounds.
I believe two missiles if I remember correctly: 2 shots, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no saves.
So about 1 hit = 1 wound.
So total dead orks is about 10 of them (being optimistic)
You forgot hurricane bolters. That's also around 7 dead boyz.
17 from an unbuffed stormraven. That's also enough to kill another 7 from LD. But realistically there should either be another mob or a warboss, so just an average of 2 more dead from warboss. A total of 19 dead boyz. 114 pts of dead orks don't sound like much but you got to keep in mind that SR has literally no limitations on it's targets. It can easilly move in a way that it wrecks the backlines denying the opponent scoring. And orks can do nothing to the SR at all. So, it's bound to pay off in 2-3 game turns. With it's superior mobility, you can pick on closest squads first. And what's interesting, dakkajets are considered good. 2 dakkajets that will cost 300 pts can only kill 48 pt of boyz per turn. That's 2.5 times worse than a SR. And they can't get any further buffs and are easier to kill...but it's better to just ignore them.
I'd take 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons and stormbolters, guilliman and a stormraven in any TAC competitive SM list. Plus other stuff, if I want to tailor orks 2 more razorback and another flyer.
They will always go first against green tides and that's a lot of dead orks every turn. Even without tailoring.
180 boyz or stormboyz is the minimum in any competitive lists based on the green tide concept. And against this kind of shooty lists they don't even look that many.
Rokkits in orks boyz units suck, they cost +36 points and strip only a few wounds on average, you'll never kill a stormraven with those boyz.
koooaei wrote: You forgot hurricane bolters. That's also around 7 dead boyz.
17 from an unbuffed stormraven. That's also enough to kill another 7 from LD. But realistically there should either be another mob or a warboss, so just an average of 2 more dead from warboss. A total of 19 dead boyz. 114 pts of dead orks don't sound like much but you got to keep in mind that SR has literally no limitations on it's targets. It can easilly move in a way that it wrecks the backlines denying the opponent scoring. And orks can do nothing to the SR at all. So, it's bound to pay off in 2-3 game turns. With it's superior mobility, you can pick on closest squads first. And what's interesting, dakkajets are considered good. 2 dakkajets that will cost 300 pts can only kill 48 pt of boyz per turn. That's 2.5 times worse than a SR. And they can't get any further buffs and are easier to kill...but it's better to just ignore them.
Gah! I forgot about the hurricane bolters and did not see a single competitive list without them. Thanks for pointing that out.
I am unsure what to say about the Dakkajets but yeah, 2.5 times worse is impressive shooting (everything counts in large amounts, not just boyz).
I may have to see what some Mathhammer says about them shooting at a SR.
SilverAlien wrote: Question: Why wouldn't orks be going first? A full sized unit of boys is 180 points before upgrades. As far as a single unit goes, that's a fairly expensive single drop. Even if that's your entire army, it doesn't seem impossible for them to finish deploying first.
8th goes by drops, tournaments go by drops +1 for rolls.
So your average 2k list has 3-6 units of 30 Boyz, Ghaz, a painboy, a Big Mek with KFF, 1-4 Weirdboyz, Banner Nob and maybe some other crap like Stormboyz or a few units of kommandos. So you usually have 8+ drops. Conversely a SM can get away with 6 or 7 easily.
So since SM had fewer drops he technically gets to go first. in Tournaments you roll off to see who goes first but the person who has the fewest drops gets +1 to their roll.
But those 6-7 drops aren't competitive builds. Every decent 2000 point list I saw for SM has been razorback spam with flyers, which is usually at least 10 drops. Not to mention guard already laughs at orks, and have way more drops as well. Orks are rocking a pretty comparable price per drop compared to most armies, I suppose the need for hqs and elites to boost can cause a few more drops, so a little lower but not much.
Idk, it just seems that this isn't really benefitting orks that much. It might boost them slightly but not considerably
The main weakness of orks is they have mediocre HQs and elite characters, at least unique versions. Hardly any of them have boosted auras, and the baseline auras aren't great. KFF has the weird restriction carried over from previous editions, docs tools are tiny radius and only 6+ fnp, only the war boss has what I'd call a good aura and that's not even a real force multiplier.
But at max range in Girlymans aura you get results like this.
That is I assume you drop into hover or how do you manage to keep in range of the aura, Girlyman is not that fast, but also you need to be at least 24" of the enemy while doing that... kinda risky.
That is why Dante is used or you just pack in a devastator squads and Razorbacks
they will also be beyond hurting unless you brought a plethora of Stormboyz...who realistically would have been targeted first by the stormravens unless the SM player is a dunce.
Or hide in melee, or do they not get to drop onto the table some >9" away from the enemy or am I not remembering something correctly?
As to your other points, I am not moving the goal posts and nothing you have shown has proven anything I said wrong. Those units are useless EXCEPT as rear objective holders. If they were useful people would be taking them INSTEAD of green tide. Every competitive list barring the 1 weird one was based predominantly on Green tide. And you miss the point where you list the cost of 3 units of boyz. You also add in the weirdboyz, Warbosses, Painboyz and KFF Big Mekz because those units are there solely to buff the green tide most of the time. Not counting those units as part of the green tide is like saying conscripts are amazing and not counting the Commissar into the equation.
Yeah.
Sure, every last bit of the lists are Green Tide... sure... 90+ models still amounts to a hair less than 3/8 of a 2000 point army, yes, not including your supporting units.
Amazing how one must take into account the cost of supporting units.
Yeah, KFF manages to change the various math that glory-be Orks get some saves!
And if marines get their flyers aligned with the Girlyman (which is also a supporting unit), you would need the warboss to crack some heads to get some re-rolls if the mob saves are looking thin (even with nearby units within 6") due to the 20 odd deaths happening.
Yep conscripts would be nothing without that commissar with kill one guy and the morale issues all go away.
Kinda like orks and being all mobbed up.
Speaking of that, I need to look again at what the priest does for the conscript blobs as well... but that is off-topic.
Well fine, great, you have convinced me.
I am presently putting my other SR model together in your honor.
I can show pictures as evidence if needed. It appears to be clear that Orks are pretty much useless from a competitive viewpoint if the opinions are to be believed.
So unless I am seeing exclusively a sea of orks across the table, anything else I can view as an even lesser threat / waste of points and I can be happy with that fact.
I always find it funny to argue for your limitations rather than a problem to be solved but being devil's advocate is fun and all but in the end, making Orks competitive is not my problem. Ah well, the criticisms have been refreshing or should I say "bracing".
SilverAlien wrote: Question: Why wouldn't orks be going first? A full sized unit of boys is 180 points before upgrades. As far as a single unit goes, that's a fairly expensive single drop. Even if that's your entire army, it doesn't seem impossible for them to finish deploying first.
8th goes by drops, tournaments go by drops +1 for rolls.
So your average 2k list has 3-6 units of 30 Boyz, Ghaz, a painboy, a Big Mek with KFF, 1-4 Weirdboyz, Banner Nob and maybe some other crap like Stormboyz or a few units of kommandos. So you usually have 8+ drops. Conversely a SM can get away with 6 or 7 easily.
So since SM had fewer drops he technically gets to go first. in Tournaments you roll off to see who goes first but the person who has the fewest drops gets +1 to their roll.
But those 6-7 drops aren't competitive builds. Every decent 2000 point list I saw for SM has been razorback spam with flyers, which is usually at least 10 drops. Not to mention guard already laughs at orks, and have way more drops as well. Orks are rocking a pretty comparable price per drop compared to most armies, I suppose the need for hqs and elites to boost can cause a few more drops, so a little lower but not much.
Idk, it just seems that this isn't really benefitting orks that much. It might boost them slightly but not considerably
The main weakness of orks is they have mediocre HQs and elite characters, at least unique versions. Hardly any of them have boosted auras, and the baseline auras aren't great. KFF has the weird restriction carried over from previous editions, docs tools are tiny radius and only 6+ fnp, only the war boss has what I'd call a good aura and that's not even a real force multiplier.
Right but the SMs drop their units into the Transports they take and those only count as 1 drop. plopping all their characters into a single Razborback is technically 5-6 drops but only counts as 1. That is why Orkz don't get that +1 or in friendly games have to go last, you really can't cram 30 boyz into a vehicle, and we don't take transports because ours are at present, significantly over priced as to be worthless.
I do agree though that one of the major weaknesses of the Ork Index is the sheer mediocrity of the HQs and elite characters. What floored me was Ghaz's aura only giving +1 to attacks in CC. Girlyman gives TL to everything, Shred to everything, morale and a couple other tricks. Would it have been to much to get rerolls to wound or maybe more speed for orkz near ghaz?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: (Stormboyz) Or hide in melee, or do they not get to drop onto the table some >9" away from the enemy or am I not remembering something correctly?
Unfortunately you are remembering incorrectly, they do not have a deep strike mechanism.
Talizvar wrote: Yeah.
Sure, every last bit of the lists are Green Tide... sure... 90+ models still amounts to a hair less than 3/8 of a 2000 point army, yes, not including your supporting units.
Amazing how one must take into account the cost of supporting units.
Yeah, KFF manages to change the various math that glory-be Orks get some saves!
And if marines get their flyers aligned with the Girlyman (which is also a supporting unit), you would need the warboss to crack some heads to get some re-rolls if the mob saves are looking thin (even with nearby units within 6") due to the 20 odd deaths happening.
Yep conscripts would be nothing without that commissar with kill one guy and the morale issues all go away.
Kinda like orks and being all mobbed up.
Of course you count supporting units, when I make my Stormraven/Asscan comparisons its always including girlyman because he drastically increases effeciency, now the difference is that girlyman will also be buffing anything else nearby as well, and since he is a gunline character they will all be next to him. In contrast to that, Ork characters generally wont be near rear objective grabbers because they will be roving forward to slay bodies. So when you calculate the Green Tide points you count the Warboss/Ghaz/KFF Big Mek/Weirdboyz/Painboyz and Banner Nobz, into their price because they are A PART OF the green tide. Most of my green tide lists have Ghaz, Mad Dok, KFF Big Mek at least 2 Weirdboyz and sometimes a Banner Nob. That amounts to another 400-600pts depending on which characters you take. So those 90-150 boyz just went from 540-900pts to 940-1,500pts. And of course in green tide its not just "Boyz" that are a part of the tide, Kommandos and Stormboyz are a part as well. So chuck on another couple hundred points for each of those units.
I appreciate you looking for solutions, and in the tactics thread ive been putting forward suggestions as well, but as it stands right now there are no competitive builds beyond green tide. The Squiggoth is a nice distraction unit but i think it did better then it should have because people were just surprised by the thing
The fact we have to have this debate means they're is probably something wrong... What baffled me is how deff gw is. Some kf the choices in the ork index baffles me! Even when they announced the ork index and what's good with it (in those blog posts) they didn't sound that exciting compared to other factions. I remember all the stuff they talked about were basically unchanged stuff from 7th ed or just general rule changes that affected everyone not just orks... I don't think gw wants to kill off orks but its obvious the people who wrote the index don't have a passion for orks or don't understand them as well as some of the people in this community. (I don't think I understand them as I play both marines and orks but there are some people here who just get it...)
lolman1c wrote: The fact we have to have this debate means they're is probably something wrong... What baffled me is how deff gw is. Some kf the choices in the ork index baffles me! Even when they announced the ork index and what's good with it (in those blog posts) they didn't sound that exciting compared to other factions. I remember all the stuff they talked about were basically unchanged stuff from 7th ed or just general rule changes that affected everyone not just orks... I don't think gw wants to kill off orks but its obvious the people who wrote the index don't have a passion for orks or don't understand them as well as some of the people in this community. (I don't think I understand them as I play both marines and orks but there are some people here who just get it...)
I still have a good laugh at that moron from FLG who was pumping up Orkz on their site. Apparently Killa Kanz and the Stompa are super competitive.
lolman1c wrote: The fact we have to have this debate means they're is probably something wrong... What baffled me is how deff gw is. Some kf the choices in the ork index baffles me! Even when they announced the ork index and what's good with it (in those blog posts) they didn't sound that exciting compared to other factions. I remember all the stuff they talked about were basically unchanged stuff from 7th ed or just general rule changes that affected everyone not just orks... I don't think gw wants to kill off orks but its obvious the people who wrote the index don't have a passion for orks or don't understand them as well as some of the people in this community. (I don't think I understand them as I play both marines and orks but there are some people here who just get it...)
I still have a good laugh at that moron from FLG who was pumping up Orkz on their site. Apparently Killa Kanz and the Stompa are super competitive.
Harlequins were meant to be overpowered too.
Their meta must have been very weird. Which I can imagine given they were testing everything.
They probably couldn't just go "right, I'm taking RG, Storm Ravens and maybe some razorbacks. Lets see if you can beat it with every faction" even if that's what the internet probably would have preferred them to do.
I don't think Orks even beyond Green Tide are quite as hopeless as the forum claims. Mainly because there are other objectives than pure damage and dice can be fickle. Just because the odds are stacked against you doesn't mean you always lose. But you are probably going to struggle over a tournament where consistently winning matches, preferably in a one sided fashion, is key to moving up the ranks.
SemperMortis wrote: Right but the SMs drop their units into the Transports they take and those only count as 1 drop. plopping all their characters into a single Razborback is technically 5-6 drops but only counts as 1. That is why Orkz don't get that +1 or in friendly games have to go last, you really can't cram 30 boyz into a vehicle, and we don't take transports because ours are at present, significantly over priced as to be worthless.
I do agree though that one of the major weaknesses of the Ork Index is the sheer mediocrity of the HQs and elite characters. What floored me was Ghaz's aura only giving +1 to attacks in CC. Girlyman gives TL to everything, Shred to everything, morale and a couple other tricks. Would it have been to much to get rerolls to wound or maybe more speed for orkz near
As far as razorback+SM squad goes, a razorback with tllc and 5 tacticals is 180 points, the same cost as an unupgraded squad of boyz. With the assault cannon, it's actually 165 points. Yes both squads will likely be a bit pricier when upgrades are factored in, but will still be in the same ballpark. So the core isn't really that different in cost.
As for putting all the HQs+elites into a single transport, a trukk is like 10 points more than a razorback. If you aren't using biker or mega armor HQs you might as well do that. Actually, trukks can transport mega armor I just saw. So honestly might as well, with 12-6 seats you should have enough for any reasonably sized collection of characters.
SemperMortis wrote: Right but the SMs drop their units into the Transports they take and those only count as 1 drop. plopping all their characters into a single Razborback is technically 5-6 drops but only counts as 1. That is why Orkz don't get that +1 or in friendly games have to go last, you really can't cram 30 boyz into a vehicle, and we don't take transports because ours are at present, significantly over priced as to be worthless.
I do agree though that one of the major weaknesses of the Ork Index is the sheer mediocrity of the HQs and elite characters. What floored me was Ghaz's aura only giving +1 to attacks in CC. Girlyman gives TL to everything, Shred to everything, morale and a couple other tricks. Would it have been to much to get rerolls to wound or maybe more speed for orkz near
As far as razorback+SM squad goes, a razorback with tllc and 5 tacticals is 180 points, the same cost as an unupgraded squad of boyz. With the assault cannon, it's actually 165 points. Yes both squads will likely be a bit pricier when upgrades are factored in, but will still be in the same ballpark. So the core isn't really that different in cost.
As for putting all the HQs+elites into a single transport, a trukk is like 10 points more than a razorback. If you aren't using biker or mega armor HQs you might as well do that. Actually, trukks can transport mega armor I just saw. So honestly might as well, with 12-6 seats you should have enough for any reasonably sized collection of characters.
A razorback has a purpose after it drops off his load of characters or Devestator/scout marines, a Trukk has no purpose at all beyond helping with drops because there aren't any squads in the Ork Index worth putting in a Trukk this edition. Meganobz got more expensive and do less then last edition where people were getting the bully boyz upgrade. The only units I would ever consider putting in a trukk is maybe nobz an Tank Bustas but both are significantly less points effective then boyz, except vs T8.
That is why last edition you saw Ork armies with 4-6 Trukkz on the table at LVO and other tournaments and this edition you don't even see them in local tournaments.
I don't think Orks even beyond Green Tide are quite as hopeless as the forum claims. Mainly because there are other objectives than pure damage and dice can be fickle. Just because the odds are stacked against you doesn't mean you always lose. But you are probably going to struggle over a tournament where consistently winning matches, preferably in a one sided fashion, is key to moving up the ranks.
You realize you just contradicted yourself? you dont think they are hopeless but you then say that the odds are stacked against them. Yes there are other objectives besides killing, however killing is still the most important factor in the game. I play a tournament heavy META and the only units worth taking are the Green tide and maybe a Big Gun/Grot squad to hold a backfield objective and force my opponent to use one of his deep strikes against a 30pt squad. I am desperate at this point to play something besides Green Tide and still be as competitive. You have no idea how boring it is to play an army of 150-200 models that do the exact same thing over and over again. Last edition I was playing Kan Wall, Speed Freakz, Mek Lists, Boyz spam, Wagon Rush. Now none were as good as Green Tide this edition, but they were all the same competitively and it kept me entertained, even though I lost a lot because of how crap 7th was for orkz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh, and the last 8 reported Ork games are all losses....should we maybe rename this to "I am calling for an influx of Ork losses"?
Ork wins are not impossible but sometimes it does get annoying that you put so much effort into all these tactics and placing buffs in right place, barely making the random rolls... and all the other guy does is sit still and roll 2+ to hit lines and snipers that just end you without him even trying.
lolman1c wrote: Ork wins are not impossible but sometimes it does get annoying that you put so much effort into all these tactics and placing buffs in right place, barely making the random rolls... and all the other guy does is sit still and roll 2+ to hit lines and snipers that just end you without him even trying.
Of course, I would never claim they are "Impossible" I do pretty darn good at tournaments with my Ork Horde, the difference is that I have to make sure not to miss a single thing. My opponents usually lose to me because they either underestimate my faction and don't pay close attention or because they don't understand how to use strategy in a strategy game and instead rely on broken units to help them along. Think how bad Tau players had it when 8th dropped. They still do AMAZING at tournaments but the average person sucks now with tau because it no longer is an army of broken gunline units that can't die. Think about Eldar in 7th as well. There were no tactics involved in taking Scat bikes and wraithknights, it was just simply a choice of what enemy unit to delete first.
Orks on the other hand have to rely on every available facet of their crap index to win games. You have to out smart your opponent AND still be lucky in order to pull out a win.
SemperMortis wrote: Orks on the other hand have to rely on every available facet of their crap index to win games. You have to out smart your opponent AND still be lucky in order to pull out a win.
I thought it was only one facet: Ork troops.
With of course the supporting units.
Not every available facet... only the green tide.
Keep within 6" and advance up the board.
Maybe fancy formations like a cloverleaf and the supporting units in the middle?
Considering we are not trying to do side assaults like old Fantasy Battle it seems like there is precious opportunity to "outsmart".
SemperMortis wrote: Orks on the other hand have to rely on every available facet of their crap index to win games. You have to out smart your opponent AND still be lucky in order to pull out a win.
I thought it was only one facet: Ork troops.
With of course the supporting units.
Not every available facet... only the green tide.
Keep within 6" and advance up the board.
Maybe fancy formations like a cloverleaf and the supporting units in the middle?
Considering we are not trying to do side assaults like old Fantasy Battle it seems like there is precious opportunity to "outsmart".
In a tournament setting where a horde army hardly ever gets past turn 3 there is a lot of strategy involved. I run Kommandos to augment my Boyz in the Green Tide, keeping them for late game objective grabbing or supporting an assault is fairly important, as is placement of the models themselves in regards to auras and ensuring successful assaults. Its always a good time when your opponent leaves something valuable exposed for you to destroy because he forgot about "Da Jump" or that you have 15 more kommandos to deploy late game. You also have to find a way to outsmart opponents in the regular movement/consolidate phases because if you want to keep vehicles tied up you have to keep them from retreating.
fe40k wrote: Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor, or flyers, in any capacity.
They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.
Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.[/quote
What about Tankbustas? A whole unit with rokkits?, or deffdreads? Or meganobs with powerklaws? Orks have plenty of ways to deal with armor. Always have.
Not every available facet... only the green tide.
Keep within 6" and advance up the board.
Maybe fancy formations like a cloverleaf and the supporting units in the middle?
Considering we are not trying to do side assaults like old Fantasy Battle it seems like there is precious opportunity to "outsmart".
Yep, pretty much. But there is overall not too much room for strategy in a 40k game - especially with such a skew list as a footslogging mellee horde. There used to be more room for different maneuvres when terrain actually did something - but not now. The 'smartest' thing you can do is fool your opponent by persuading him you're going to commit your boyz to chopping him down but in reality all you want is just grab objectives and hold them as long as possible.
SemperMortis wrote: Orkz have nothing to deal with armor in a competitive META
in a friendly game, yeah bring tankbustas and Meganobz and Deff Dreadz, but if you go to an ITC event with those units you will lose.
Odd, what's wrong with mek gunz with kustom mega blastas? They are actually about as effective as the equivalents I use in my armies (dunecrawler with neutron laser and lascannon predator) in power and durability per cost. I mean, they are random, but taken in bulk averages should even out. They aren't the best be all end all of anti tank, but they are certainly give your army something acceptable.
Honestly, the fact you can fit six in a single heavy support makes them a great complement for a battalion of boyz, won't be running out of heavy support slots like I do for my admech.
SemperMortis wrote: Orkz have nothing to deal with armor in a competitive META
in a friendly game, yeah bring tankbustas and Meganobz and Deff Dreadz, but if you go to an ITC event with those units you will lose.
Odd, what's wrong with mek gunz with kustom mega blastas? They are actually about as effective as the equivalents I use in my armies (dunecrawler with neutron laser and lascannon predator) in power and durability per cost. I mean, they are random, but taken in bulk averages should even out. They aren't the best be all end all of anti tank, but they are certainly give your army something acceptable.
Honestly, the fact you can fit six in a single heavy support makes them a great complement for a battalion of boyz, won't be running out of heavy support slots like I do for my admech.
KMK Mek Gunz are Range 36, Heavy D6, S8 -3 AP D3 Damage. On a roll to hit of 1 the weapon overheats and kills a gunner. Its T5 with 6wounds and a 5+ armor save. 6 of them is going to cost you just shy of 300pts, That gives you a mid range unit that ON AVERAGE fires 21 shots, for 10.5 hits (3.5 Dead gunners a turn) against a Vehicle those 10.5 hits turn into about 7 wounds, with -3 AP this means most vehicles will be getting a 6+ save unless they are in cover or they have the plethora of Invuln saves that are floating around for vehicles these days. Lets assume they have a 5+ save because that is about as likely, that means about 5 shots go through doing 10 damage on average.
So you are paying 300pts to kill a 100-250pt vehicle a turn that happens to be in range. While doing so you are leaving a JUICY target for a backfield Deep strike to annihilate because realistically, if anything gets into combat with that unit its gone. Now I don't rule them out as a viable unit for backfield support, but relying on them for anti-vehicle is ridiculous. NO mans land is 24inches, and you will never be deploying Mek Gunz on the edge of No mans land so realistically they are probably 3-6inches back trying to grab cover of some sort. So long as the enemy keeps his vehicles away from that 36in line they are safe and since our army relies on CC to do anything we have to advance, 9 times out of 10 they don't have to advance and will wait for us to get in range, and chaos/IOM out range us by 12+ inches on most of their anti-vehicle weapons. So yes, we don't have sufficient COMPETITIVE anti-vehicle support.
Except everything you said applies to the units I mentioned, besides the issues with range and mobility. In terms of firepower, durability, and need for screening units all are more or less in the same boat. Honestly the range issue isn't as bad as you make it sound either, most armies don't deploy the entirety of their tanks on the back edge of their deployment zone.
When people say stuff like "Why not buy 6 heavy mek gunz" and i'm like "I could hardly afford my Ork horde!!!" People need to remember it costs ork players a fortune in real life money! 30 orks are about the same use as a single pack of immortals but 3x the price!
SilverAlien wrote: Except everything you said applies to the units I mentioned, besides the issues with range and mobility. In terms of firepower, durability, and need for screening units all are more or less in the same boat. Honestly the range issue isn't as bad as you make it sound either, most armies don't deploy the entirety of their tanks on the back edge of their deployment zone.
SemperMortis is trying to tell that while having an ok profile on paper, mek gunz are counter-intuitive to use in numbers for an ork horde. Simply because they don't synerginse too well. Mellee hordes (that are also quite slow to boot) are very restrictive on what you can take alongside the core of your army. Especially vs shooty or/and mobile opponents that can choose optimal targets easilly. You can't play around it when the game has allready started. As an ork player, you can't really kill whatever key targets your opponent has early on because there are no really good shooty options, so to build a competitive army you have to focus on mellee and incidentally, it's a slow mellee, so we're going in circles. The best and probably only solution is to not present your opponent with optimal targets to begin with. Getting a couple mek gunz to hide in the backfield is ok. Getting a bunch of them is not a good idea.
Going back on track, i do hope that an ork codex will fix our most glaring issues and make something other than a footslogging horde a viable army. Preferably mech orks (i have 15 meganobz an a bunch of trukks that have nothing to do on the table atm).
SilverAlien wrote: Except everything you said applies to the units I mentioned, besides the issues with range and mobility. In terms of firepower, durability, and need for screening units all are more or less in the same boat. Honestly the range issue isn't as bad as you make it sound either, most armies don't deploy the entirety of their tanks on the back edge of their deployment zone.
SemperMortis is trying to tell that while having an ok profile on paper, mek gunz are counter-intuitive to use in numbers for an ork horde. Simply because they don't synerginse too well. Mellee hordes (that are also quite slow to boot) are very restrictive on what you can take alongside the core of your army. Especially vs shooty or/and mobile opponents that can choose optimal targets easilly. You can't play around it when the game has allready started. As an ork player, you can't really kill whatever key targets your opponent has early on because there are no really good shooty options, so to build a competitive army you have to focus on mellee and incidentally, it's a slow mellee, so we're going in circles. The best and probably only solution is to not present your opponent with optimal targets to begin with. Getting a couple mek gunz to hide in the backfield is ok. Getting a bunch of them is not a good idea.
Going back on track, i do hope that an ork codex will fix our most glaring issues and make something other than a footslogging horde a viable army. Preferably mech orks (i have 15 meganobz an a bunch of trukks that have nothing to do on the table atm).
Exactly. And the key take away is that most armies that are shooty aren't going to be moving to much if at all. They will be staying at max range and sniping enemy units from afar. Mek Gunz can't do that and the Ork army is going to be rapidly attempting to close with their opponent, which means those expensive gunz will be left unguarded and they will get destroyed, yielding a couple of kill points an line breaker to your opponent who might otherwise be thinking about using his deep strikers to head off the giant blob of boyz coming at him.
Last edition we had mek gunz and didn't use them to crack vehicles, they were better almost across the board as well. Last edition we relied on PKs and killsaws. This edition we rely on a fethload of attacks in CC>
Well, ork mellee is pretty good. Boyz can put out an absurd amount of s4 attacks per point. A blob will down a rhino in mellee in a couple phases if they get appropriate buffs like +1 for Ghaz, warpath or greentide. That's our main strenght. The weakness is that it's mellee. That comes from t4 6+ armored bodies with a 5+d6" move with close to no shooting and a lot of restrictions regarding how and where you can move. And no effective ways of dealing with flyers and t8 units because what's supposed to work vs them simply doesn't.
One important thing should be told. There's no lack of ork wins when it comes to a horde list. It's kinda counter-meta and it currently works pretty good with the general buffs footslogging mellee got in 8-th. There's a severe lack of wins with any other playstyle, however. And a lot of ork players don't really want to run a greentide list for various reasons. So, here's where bitterness is coming from. It's like saying a 7-th edition nid player that he should be happy with his army cause flyrant spam is super competitive - what else does he need?!
So i feel that this whole thread is missing the point. Hordes are allready good. Everything else is so bad, small general rule tweaks won't help.
SilverAlien wrote: Except everything you said applies to the units I mentioned, besides the issues with range and mobility. In terms of firepower, durability, and need for screening units all are more or less in the same boat. Honestly the range issue isn't as bad as you make it sound either, most armies don't deploy the entirety of their tanks on the back edge of their deployment zone.
Most armies deploy their entirety of their tanks 48" or 72" away from what they shoot, which is boyz getting closer to them. In addition, KMKs are usually behind all those boyz mobs that need to cross the table ASAP, so they aren't close to the enemy's deployment zone either.
If you're a bit careful, you can freely use your predators, sould grinders, defilers, riptides, storm ravens and razorbacks without ever needing to get in range of the KMK batteries. Meanwhile, your predator annihilator or basilisks can simply sit wherever you deployed them and shoot all game without moving. Worst case they can drive away from nearby threats and continue shooting at -1.
koooaei wrote: Everything else is so bad, small general rule tweaks won't help.
Outside of former blast weapons, I don't see why simply readjusting the point costs of most units won't fix them.
Outside of former blast weapons, I don't see why simply readjusting the point costs of most units won't fix them.
the thread is not about ork rule and point changes that are going to come with the codex but about general rule changes we've seen lately like going first and obsec for troops - all of which are great overall but not enough to make walker wall or trukk rush viable.
Outside of former blast weapons, I don't see why simply readjusting the point costs of most units won't fix them.
the thread is not about ork rule and point changes that are going to come with the codex but about general rule changes we've seen lately like going first and obsec for troops - all of which are great overall but not enough to make walker wall or trukk rush viable.
www.warhammer-community.com wrote:We’ve heard a little more about what we can look forward to in the upcoming Chapter Approved, and it sounds more and more exciting the more we hear.
We learned at NOVA tonight that the new book will feature, (amongst many other things)
- An expansion for Apocalypse games of Warhammer 40,000
- Guidelines on running a planetary invasion campaign
- Updated matched play points for dozens of units and weapons across every army - Loads of new Missions for open, narrative and matched play.
- We are also bringing a whole new feature to Open Play. Designing and building your own vehicles is a feature that hasn’t appeared in Warhammer 40,000 since 5th Edition. We are going to trial some new rules to allow you to design your very own Land Raider variants and field these behemoths on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.
Finally Chapter Approved will also give Factions that have not yet received their codex some expanded rules while they wait, allowing these factions to make use of some of the cool new mechanics available in Warhammer 40,000.
Chapter Approved is looking like a must for any dedicated Warhammer 40,000 player.
If KMKs became half price I might take them again otherwise they sit collecting dust.
The new rules might help or they might destroy what little hope we have of winning in a tournament, who knows?
I have had SEVERAL people in my META complain about how Boyz are OP because they are cheap, and I have heard similar complaints about our Weirdboyz, specifically when I use 30-40 boyz to super charge his abilities. I guess the negative (head explodes) isn't enough of a downside for some imperial players
So fingers crossed they make more then a handful of our units competitive and don't take away the few we have.
I have had SEVERAL people in my META complain about how Boyz are OP because they are cheap, and I have heard similar complaints about our Weirdboyz, specifically when I use 30-40 boyz to super charge his abilities. I guess the negative (head explodes) isn't enough of a downside for some imperial players
There are some players in my meta that overrate the boyz because they only bring lists with tons of anti tank and a few anti infantries tools, so the green tide is something they can't really beat with their tactics that never changes. Of course all of them are imperium players
www.warhammer-community.com wrote:We’ve heard a little more about what we can look forward to in the upcoming Chapter Approved, and it sounds more and more exciting the more we hear.
We learned at NOVA tonight that the new book will feature, (amongst many other things)
- An expansion for Apocalypse games of Warhammer 40,000
- Guidelines on running a planetary invasion campaign
- Updated matched play points for dozens of units and weapons across every army - Loads of new Missions for open, narrative and matched play.
- We are also bringing a whole new feature to Open Play. Designing and building your own vehicles is a feature that hasn’t appeared in Warhammer 40,000 since 5th Edition. We are going to trial some new rules to allow you to design your very own Land Raider variants and field these behemoths on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.
Finally Chapter Approved will also give Factions that have not yet received their codex some expanded rules while they wait, allowing these factions to make use of some of the cool new mechanics available in Warhammer 40,000.
Chapter Approved is looking like a must for any dedicated Warhammer 40,000 player.
so has this panned out yet or what? The ITC Tracker in the forum hasn't been updated in awhile but from what Ive seen it hasn't changed much if at all, hell its probably gone a bit south.
