I haven't had a chance to play any games of 8th yet, but from the lists I've been seeing posted it seems like transports are not as popular. I'm assuming this is due to their increased cost, lack of fire points and general increased movement of dedicated CC units,

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who switched from a mechanized force to footsloggers and how that is working out for you. Alternatively do you find yourself still using transports, but now only having select squads take them vs each one.

I've found that I'm starting to leave Chimera behind in my Guard lists. I haven't played many games yet, but my last game I used no Chimera and I'd say it was the strongest list I've played.

I find I lose too much firepower while advancing. The old Vets in Chimeras feel like I'm leaving points off the table. Especially since they're "elites" now, and I can take Scions that "deep strike" exactly where I plan them to go.

93 points for a MultiLaser / HB Chimera, and then 81 pts for Vets with 3x Plasmaguns = 174 pts.

62 points for 5x Scions, with 2x Plasmagun. *3 units* = 186 pts. Full firepower, delivered exactly where you want it. No waiting for a turn or two of movement, hoping you don't get blown up. Twice as many Plasmaguns. 15 dudes vs 10 dudes for camping objectives. Having the option to deploy behind an advancing enemy, instead of trying to plow through. Cheap "Troop" options make taking a Brigade a real option at 1500 pts, and easy above that.

To me, it's a no brainer. Chimera have been overcosted for a while, and each edition seems to make it worse. With super cheap Scions being better weapon platforms than Veterans, there's no real reason to take an inefficient transport when you can take super-efficient troop choices.

For IG it's mostly firepoints. I used to run half gunline and half mechvets. Now that I don't have useful vets or mech with the relevant utility, I take infantry for my gunline and scions to do basically what the vets did before, and I don't really have a reason to take transports at this point.

For anything marine, I think a lot of it is the sticker shock of what the transports cost point-wise. I think Rhinos are actually a super good way to get marines up to the <12" range to cause some damage.

They're probably not particularly useful for some armies, like GK. They never really were particularly essential for them though in previous editions either, razorback gunline notwithstanding.

I'm in the same boat. In 5th edition, my favourite play was some Mech Vets and a Demolisher to head forwards, while some gunline grunts supported longer ranged Russ and an artillery piece.

I haven't looked into SM recently. I've been wanting my Guard to be playable again for so long, and they are most definitely that right now. And I've never really been attached to Chimerae, they were necessary evils in my mind. Now I can advance "gunline" grunts with slower tanks to take the midfield, sit back with artillery for home objectives, and drop Scions on distant objectives. I'm playing the whole board again, and loving it, and transports have no part in that plan.

It is worth mentioning that I've had some luck with the Taurox Prime as well. I don't actually use it as a transport, but it's a pretty decent weapons platform for the price. Add the gatling cannon and the twin HSVGs and you've got about a squad worth of firepower in a vehicle's package.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:

I haven't looked into SM recently. I've been wanting my Guard to be playable again for so long, and they are most definitely that right now. And I've never really been attached to Chimerae, they were necessary evils in my mind. Now I can advance "gunline" grunts with slower tanks to take the midfield, sit back with artillery for home objectives, and drop Scions on distant objectives. I'm playing the whole board again, and loving it, and transports have no part in that plan.

Toward the end of 5th and through 6th, I actually got into power blobs. It's a different (and harder) game to play, but it's WAAAY more interesting than traditional gunlining, and the look on an opponent the first time you start crossing table faster than they are screaming "FIX BAYONETS!" is kind of precious.

Having that been said, there's no blob in 8th yet, so it's a mixed bag as far as level of effectiveness. Given that you have aura support from characters, it kind of plays out similarly, but there are a few oddities that come up, like if your characters can't make the charge but half your squads do, you might wind up in trouble. Wound allocation is also not as good as it would be with blobs but at the same time leaps and bounds better for the pseudo-blob than it was in the last two editions. Having that been said, with AP and S/T working more in Guard favor nowadays than they ever have, I've been putting power swords on my sergeants every game and I don't think there's been a single time I wished I would have spent the points otherwise. The money shot was the priest with evicerator that murdered Baharroth (4++ is super good when it's your only armor) and the commissar with power fist who uppercutted a Wraithlord to death. I mean, I won't claim they did the bulk of the work, but that finishing blow just feels good, ya know?

That's because while transports got a boost in survivability vs anti tank (It's literally impossible for a single Krak missile or Lascannon to destroy a vehicle now for example), they paid for this with a MASSIVE hike in price, a lot of transports lost their fire points and now all are vulnerable to massed small arms fire they were immune to before. Add to that the fact you are effectively forced to sit there and take a round of shooting before delivering your payload, due to disembarking having to happen before the transport moves.

Simply but, transports are not worth it outside of a couple of oddball exceptions.

 gossipmeng wrote:
I haven't had a chance to play any games of 8th yet, but from the lists I've been seeing posted it seems like transports are not as popular. I'm assuming this is due to their increased cost, lack of fire points and general increased movement of dedicated CC units,

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who switched from a mechanized force to footsloggers and how that is working out for you. Alternatively do you find yourself still using transports, but now only having select squads take them vs each one.

IG has four transports.

The Chimera is the old heavyweight champion. If you're charging into the teeth of the enemy, the Chimera is what you need. But. . . . IG rarely wants to charge into the teeth of the enemy. So the Chimera is kind of blah unless you're stuffing it with Ogryns. Chimera should be able to carry a lascannon in the turret in my opinion.

Taurox: The confused lightweight. Faster than a chimera, and notionally cheaper, for some reason you're forced to bring along a pair of the disappointing and expensive autocannons. Without the AC this would be a useful light transport vehicle for IG. With them its too expensive to bother with. GW really needs to make the ACs optional and people might buy these.

Taurox Prime: The Contender. Faster than a chimera and up-gunned enough to make the Leman Russ a bit jealous, the Taurox Prime is an incredible vehicle. Its only failing is that it can't carry normal guard, but is reserved for Scions. You see these a lot, but mainly because they're light tanks with a crew compartment. My scions have never actually ridden in it yet.

Valkyrie: A Chimera with 4 extra wounds that flies through the air with a better gun selection, that has an awesome deployment option.

I haven't used one yet (4'x4' table problem), but really the Valkyrie is the only transport I really want at this point. Its fast, its tough, it has a respectable armament, and while its expensive, its also likely to stick around a while. I can see myself using it to make troops air-mobile for late game objective grabbing after its delivered its primary cargo. I'm picking one up in my next army expansion. I'll always bring Tauroxes, but that's because I like them better than Leman Russes.

That's how I see it anyway. Transports need to have a specific purpose now. They're expensive and need to earn their keep. There's just no reason to mechanize a whole army anymore.

For Orkz our trukkz went from 30 to 88pts....so Why would you pay 88pts to transport 72pts of boyz? especially since hte trukk is useless afterwards except as a bullet sponge.

They way too expensive now. They also changed the disembark rules you have to get out before the vehicle moves so it doesn't even increase a units mobility by that much any more.

Cant really see a reason to take many transports anymore unless they also provide a stupid amount of damage output, which rare the ones you see. (LR, RB and Raven)

 daedalus wrote:


Toward the end of 5th and through 6th, I actually got into power blobs. It's a different (and harder) game to play, but it's WAAAY more interesting than traditional gunlining, and the look on an opponent the first time you start crossing table faster than they are screaming "FIX BAYONETS!" is kind of precious.

Semi-Interesting, Self-Promoting fact. The term "Power Blob" was coined by the author of a series of articles called "How to Win with Imperial Guard". I was also a big fan of them, in 5th and early 6th.

Tree's Ghost no longer haunts that place.

Some Guilliman UM lists seem to max out Razorbacks with assault cannons in his bubble making use of his special rules.
Not really transports but shooting devices.

Necron's only have one dedicated transport, and it actually nerfs the unit capable of taking it if you want to use it for its intended purpose of being a transport

Aye. That twin-Assault Cannon tastes so good, but it's high in Cholesterol, and will clog your heart if you aren't careful.

To that end, Wave Serpents are still pretty bad-ass. And Necron Ghost Arcs - the repair barges? Are decent as well.


EDIT: I stand by the Ghost Arcs being decent. You can drop a squad of Warriors off at close range, and then dump a half-a-million shots into something.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Aye. That twin-Assault Cannon tastes so good, but it's high in Cholesterol, and will clog your heart if you aren't careful.

To that end, Wave Serpents are still pretty bad-ass. And Necron Ghost Arcs - the repair barges? Are decent as well.


EDIT: I stand by the Ghost Arcs being decent. You can drop a squad of Warriors off at close range, and then dump a half-a-million shots into something.

The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.
The Razorback szenario with Guilliman takes Razorbacks as shooty units only.

Basically because transports have become 2x or 3x more expensive than they were before. But they're not disappeared.

SM rhinos and razorbacks are very good, chaos rhinos are also popular. Serpents are still very common as they are a great option while drukhari and sisters can't play without transports, and they're both spamming 8-10 vehicles in a 2000 points game, most of them are transports.

Even orks can have decent lists with trukks and BWs, and I think AM could be ok with chimeras and taurox too. For these specific armies we usually see more footslogging dudes than embarked units since they are more effective and easy to play.

Transports are worthless right now if you want to actually carry troops and move them around the board.

But they're really good at tanking wounds for elite units that would die in droves if they had to footslog (Orks Tankbustas / Flash Gitz, Rubric Marines, Berzerkers, several Eldar units, etc...) or as primary weapon plateforms (which they probably should not be).

GW needs to raise the cost of Razorback's weapons and reduce the cost of things like Trukks or Chimeras in order to balance them imo.

 Nym wrote:
Transports are worthless right now if you want to actually carry troops and move them around the board.

But they're really good at tanking wounds for elite units that would die in droves if they had to footslog (Orks Tankbustas / Flash Gitz, Rubric Marines, Berzerkers, several Eldar units, etc...) or as primary weapon plateforms (which they probably should not be).

GW needs to raise the cost of Razorback's weapons and reduce the cost of things like Trukks or Chimeras in order to balance them imo.

A Razorback with a twin assault cannon is nice, several of them is real threat. They might shoot you off the table rather quickly.

Yeah, and many SM players consider them average or maybe decent.

I've never took a tank in 7th edition with my SW, now it seems that I can't play without them if I have to face a competitive opponent.

Transports are straightforward to use in the new edition.
Have some squad inside. Move forward and launch smoke (Rhino). Next round disembark and charge or move to an objective.

I think the usefulness of transport depends heavily on terrain.

Many people complain how good alpha strike lists are at the moment and that depends on the terrain as well. If your terrain is usually set up in a way such that alpha strike is strong, transports suck more often than not.
The more LoS blocking terrain there is, the better they get. Imagine a battlefield that is build like a city, a lot of buildings, some wide roads and a lot of narrow ones.
Depending on what you want them to do, transports can be really powerful.


Transports have (at least) 4 things going for them:
-What transports are really good at is blocking line of sight or small corridors. A rhino is 12cm(~4.7") long without the spikey thing in front and units can't walk move into 1" from it, bases are 1" or even wider. So you can effectively block units from moving trough any corridor of 8" or smaller for most units. To move where he needs to be, he must get rid of that tough metal box.
-Most infantry units are covered by transports so they cant be shot without the right special rules. Most opponents don't really want to spend their anti-tank shooting in a 72 points rhino to get a few shots at the infantry behind them if there are other targets. I guess if you put 2 squads of havocs with 4 Lascannons behind a rhino and a predator right besides it, your opponent will shoot the predator, even though the Havocs are much more dangerous. Deploy the havocs early in a place where they can only be seen from a small part of the opponents deployment zone, wait for him to deploy his anti infantry shooting against them or his anti-tank shooting somewhere, where he cant shoot the rhino you intend to place right in front of the havocs and enjoy.
-Then you can use them to tank overwatch, which is really good as well now if you have some melee units.
-Against alpha strike you can deploy a lot of infantry that can't be put behind LoS blocking terrain in transports to protect them from turn 1 shooting. You might lose one or two models per squad when the transport is destroyed, but that should be worth it. Your opponent can't freely choose his targets because he needs to get rid of the transport first.


It really is all about terrain. On a board that is as flat as your kitchen table, points 1-3 are not a thing.

 Nym wrote:
Transports are worthless right now if you want to actually carry troops and move them around the board.

But they're really good at tanking wounds for elite units that would die in droves if they had to footslog (Orks Tankbustas / Flash Gitz, Rubric Marines, Berzerkers, several Eldar units, etc...) or as primary weapon plateforms (which they probably should not be).

GW needs to raise the cost of Razorback's weapons and reduce the cost of things like Trukks or Chimeras in order to balance them imo.

Isnt protect and carry guys basically their core role, next to providing fire support?

Yes, razorbacks with TACs are too cheap, but my favourite transport is still the Valkyrie - with two Command Squads, plasma and/or melts, and a Company Commander inside.

Running without transports is only viable in a pure gunline or if all your close range units are fast / can deep strike. Melta Tac Squads really benefit from a transport though , for example. Same with eg Aggressors, they are really harmed by only having the incredibly pricey and small (just ten slots) Repulsor available.

Way to expensive to be worth using I just advance my troops while my fast attack gets stuck in first turn, troops will be in combat turn two.

And forget drop pods entirely.

I don't know what you are playing, but I prefer a twin lascan razorback instead of two 5 model tac marines with one lascan each. The razorback is much harder to kill and it's cheaper.

Vehicles became much tougher to kill across the board, and thus prices went up - they're no longer disposable soda cans.

It depends on factions.
Harlequins rely heavily on their transports to survive first round shooting and soak overwatch.
Raiders with kabalite warriors inside are still pretty decent.
Wave serpents are great to deliver wraithguards, and also have great firepower.
Immolators also combine transport with firepower (and can advance without penalties).

So yes, droppod and rhino spams aren't what they used to be, but I don't think transports as a whole became worse.

But transports once they've delivered cargo become pretty useless unless your able to park it on an uncontested objective.

And really with the AP change marines make it on foot just fine.

I have 4 rhinos I'll never use and a drop pod destined to be forgotten.

fresus wrote:
It depends on factions.
Harlequins rely heavily on their transports to survive first round shooting and soak overwatch.
Raiders with kabalite warriors inside are still pretty decent.
Wave serpents are great to deliver wraithguards, and also have great firepower.
Immolators also combine transport with firepower (and can advance without penalties).

So yes, droppod and rhino spams aren't what they used to be, but I don't think transports as a whole became worse.

I think transports with decent weaponry are viable in the new edition.
Here Serpents and Razorbacks come to my mind.
Also Raiders with Trueborn (4 blasters) and Venoms with Trueborn (2 splinter cannons) are viable options.

I've been thinking and looking back at prior rule sets in an effort to characterize how the balance has shifted across editions.

It seems to me that vehicles (not specifically transports) are significantly stronger than they ever have been before.

I ran the odds of a BS 4+ unit with a missile launcher killing a T8, W10 vehicle. It would take on average 17 krak missiles. With a 3+ BS it drops down to ~12. That's an entire squad of devastator marines firing missiles at a vehicle for half of the game. And other vehicles have even more wounds.

Speaking of devastators, why would you ever take them over say a predator? 5 devastators have 5 wounds (instead of 11), 4 toughness (instead of 7). They can only move 6" instead of up to 12". When they take casualties they immediately lose a large part of their firepower. Oh, and the predator isn't that much more expensive either.

That's just one instance, but there are plenty of other cases where the vehicle clearly outclasses an equivalent infantry unit.

Transports are nerfed, relatively, only in the fact that their points went way up for what you're getting. But some are still just ridiculous. Who decided that twin-linked assault cannons on a Razorback that shoots TWELVE times was a good idea? Other transports just seem crazy expensive for what they provide.

I dunno - every time I think I wan to play 8E more, I think maybe I should just go back to a house-ruled 5th edition.

Transports are nerfed, relatively, only in the fact that their points went way up for what you're getting. But some are still just ridiculous. Who decided that twin-linked assault cannons on a Razorback that shoots TWELVE times was a good idea? Other transports just seem crazy expensive for what they provide.

Well, an assault cannon has six shots. Twin linking doubles the number of shots.
This seems to be a paradigm of the 8th ed. No more twin linking in the sense of the former edition, but doubling the number.

I'd postulate that the best transport in the game right now is the Razorback. Not for it's transport capabilities (only six Space Marines), but it's weapon options. Specifically, the twin linked lascannons and assault cannons. The squad "tax" of five Space Marines is only 65 points for a Plane Jane squad, but there is nothing stopping you from giving them a missile launcher. The Razorback with TLLC's is only 115 points, and that gives you tremendous firepower vs. multiwound models. The TLAC version? 100 points for 12 S6 AP-1 shots. Pair that up with something that allows some rerolls, and it's insane the amount of firepower a Razorback can throw out.

The only other Transport that comes close in fire power is the Wave Serpent, but it's grossly over costed.

Something to remember also- transports can fight in close combat. It's not much, but it's a far cry from 7th edition when your vehicle would get assaulted, and get blown up almost instantly.

The only other Transport that comes close in fire power is the Wave Serpent, but it's grossly over costed.

Its definitely not overcosted. Its well priced able to provide good fire power and a real transport option when compared with a steel coffin like a Razorback.

Another fantastic transport is the Trojan, but this time it's not for firepower but rather for support.

The Imperial Guard have a real problem with their superheavy tanks missing a lot (due to BS4+ and the -1 from moving), but for 100 (well, 98) points you get a whole 'nother unit, gun included, and you get re-rolls on the superheavy's shooting attacks. Essentially think of it as 100 pts more on the cost of the superheavy for re-rolls, 10 wounds (at admittedly T7), 2 targets.

The fact that it can transport 6 infantry is just icing on the cake, as it were.

hobojebus wrote:
But transports once they've delivered cargo become pretty useless unless your able to park it on an uncontested objective.

And really with the AP change marines make it on foot just fine.

I have 4 rhinos I'll never use and a drop pod destined to be forgotten.

Rhinos are amazing for multi-charging units and generally blocking LOS and movement.

My Sisters lists are fully loaded in transports.

Transports are almost essential for some armies and basically worthless for others.


Transport tanks can be amazing. They offer a layer of protection for the troops inside, they can engage in melee to block overwatch and lock exposed larger tanks in combat, and the frequently have decent firepower of their own. They are, in almost every case, though, flat out worse than Deep Strike.

There are a few list types that can get away without transports.

Imperial guard, for instance, because they're a gunline by in large, with some deep strike peppered in.

Tau, for instance, because they're primarily deep strike with very fast movement anyway, drones have assault weapons so they're also super mobile.

Any army that pays points for melee strength needs transports IMHO, along with any close-range shooting army.

The 50% boots on the ground requirement means you need to be prepared to go second. if you go second against an army with Wyverns/Manticores, and your guys aren't in transports, or deep strike, they'll get erased.

Long story short: In my opinion, for most armies, transports are an absolute necessity. The armies that don't need transports are very strong at what they do, and either ignore movement by being a gunline or ignore movement by being incredibly fast & having deep strike.

In my army, I need transports to survive. They give me a very solid beta-strike, to follow the alpha strike. Move forward, deep strike, do as much damage as possible. Next turn, get out of transports, and keep fighting. Or, in most cases, get out of the remaining transports. because they die.

I'm kind of fond of my Chimera and its inhabitants: the variable response task force.

They are a mean ball of violence that consist of a melta command squad, a special weapon squad with flamers and/or demo charges and a single platoon commander. These weapons work better when they disembark as opposed to deep striking.

Basically, the special weapon squad (and the Chimera, should it survive) clear troopers out of the way so the melta guys can kill a hard and expensive target or two. The commander supports, of course.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Aye. That twin-Assault Cannon tastes so good, but it's high in Cholesterol, and will clog your heart if you aren't careful.

To that end, Wave Serpents are still pretty bad-ass. And Necron Ghost Arcs - the repair barges? Are decent as well.


EDIT: I stand by the Ghost Arcs being decent. You can drop a squad of Warriors off at close range, and then dump a half-a-million shots into something.

you can drop off 20 shots, plus the 20 from the ark, but thats 10 warriors that will die straight away. They're okay when buffing 20 warriors, but then they cant ride in it...

 Tamwulf wrote:
I'd postulate that the best transport in the game right now is the Razorback. Not for it's transport capabilities (only six Space Marines), but it's weapon options. Specifically, the twin linked lascannons and assault cannons. The squad "tax" of five Space Marines is only 65 points for a Plane Jane squad, but there is nothing stopping you from giving them a missile launcher.

This keeps popping up and it seems like a very common misunderstanding, but you don't need a Tac Squad to "unlock" a Razorback. One transport is unlocked for every other type of unit in your army. You could by a Captain and unlock a Transport. You could buy a Predator and unlock a Razorback.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Aye. That twin-Assault Cannon tastes so good, but it's high in Cholesterol, and will clog your heart if you aren't careful.

To that end, Wave Serpents are still pretty bad-ass. And Necron Ghost Arcs - the repair barges? Are decent as well.


EDIT: I stand by the Ghost Arcs being decent. You can drop a squad of Warriors off at close range, and then dump a half-a-million shots into something.

The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.
The Razorback szenario with Guilliman takes Razorbacks as shooty units only.

The Sisters Retributer and Immolator might have an issue with that opinion.

The retributer carries 10 models, has 6 fire points, 2 heavy flamers, and has close combat ability. (Not to mention the awesome profile.)
The immolator carries 6 models, has firepower that can kill most vehicles (twin multi-melta) or hoards (longer range twin heavy flamer). Also has a great profile.

Sisters take transports, period. Go look at tactics, nearly all of them are doms in retributers or immolators. (We argue about which to use and when lol.)

The CSM havoc launcher on a rhino is a pretty nice combo for back line use.

 Marmatag wrote:

Any army that pays points for melee strength needs transports IMHO, along with any close-range shooting army.

So genestealers and boyz all needs to go in transports?

Most of my armies uses Transport

Harlequins minimum of 5
DE 4-9
Eldar 3-4
SoB (unless im AoF spam GT cheese list 5-7)
CSM Khorn 3-4

The only army that does is Nids

 Klowny wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Aye. That twin-Assault Cannon tastes so good, but it's high in Cholesterol, and will clog your heart if you aren't careful.

To that end, Wave Serpents are still pretty bad-ass. And Necron Ghost Arcs - the repair barges? Are decent as well.


EDIT: I stand by the Ghost Arcs being decent. You can drop a squad of Warriors off at close range, and then dump a half-a-million shots into something.

you can drop off 20 shots, plus the 20 from the ark, but thats 10 warriors that will die straight away. They're okay when buffing 20 warriors, but then they cant ride in it...

You can do both.

Plus, nothing wipes out 10 Warriors that doesn't cost half-an-army's worth of points. So you put some hurt on something, lose a squad, and repeat. Plus, later on, you can ferry duders around to score objectives. They're not bad. They're part of a bigger package is all.

And to the Sisters players... I've never seen Sisters in real life. So far as I know, they're an internet meme-thing like Squats. Something old people gripe about when the weather is miserable. They're a hoax, like aliens or personal hygiene.

I'm using six Razorbacks and one Drop Pod in my DA list, but that's purely for a gunline and late-game objective grabbing. My UM list has only a Stormraven (technically a transport) and nothing else with a transport capacity.

Chimeras are so bad. Their main guns fail to hit anything because between heavy, wound brackets and bs4, if you use them as a transport and actually move, they just can't hit anything.

My first few games have consisted of my guys getting blown away as they footslog across the table, while the odd unit in my only Rhino actually accomplishes stuff. I don't think we're in full on 5th edition metal boxes mode, but they're still important for getting around.

 Brother SRM wrote:
My first few games have consisted of my guys getting blown away as they footslog across the table, while the odd unit in my only Rhino actually accomplishes stuff. I don't think we're in full on 5th edition metal boxes mode, but they're still important for getting around.

Indeed, footslogging is a slow way to die.
With Rhino you can make the Rhino rush move, having one Rhino in front and launching smoke while the one behind gets cover. Then in the next turn, the Rhino behind moves up front and launches smoke with the other Rhino behind getting cover.

 Brother SRM wrote:
My first few games have consisted of my guys getting blown away as they footslog across the table, while the odd unit in my only Rhino actually accomplishes stuff. I don't think we're in full on 5th edition metal boxes mode, but they're still important for getting around.

If it needs a transport it's bad 9/10 times because using transports for transportation is bad.

Imma just chill here while I'm painting my second trygon. All this talk about transportation is making me all tingly

 Mezmorki wrote:
Speaking of devastators, why would you ever take them over say a predator? 5 devastators have 5 wounds (instead of 11), 4 toughness (instead of 7). They can only move 6" instead of up to 12". When they take casualties they immediately lose a large part of their firepower. Oh, and the predator isn't that much more expensive either.

Devastators benefit from Chapter Tactics.
Devastators benefit from Ancients.
The Sergeant still provides his signum rule, letting one heavy weapon fire at BS2+.
Devastators can be placed in ruins and benefit from cover WAY easier than a Predator, so you'll always have a 2+ instead of the 3+.
You can buy 5 additional hitpoints that come with regular boltguns, and you get to pick which models die - although the squad becomes more expensive than the Predator at this point.
Devastators don't care about multiwound hits. 5 unsaved Lascannon wounds will kill a Predator easily while a full Dev Squad still has all of the anti-tank firepower.

I'm not saying Devastators are superior, but there're many things you didn't consider.

Taking a look at the transports, the cost policy is not that clear. Though most of their points are just paid for their staying power, as it is for all vehicles/MC.
Razorback is 65 with 6 tc.
Rhino is 70 points with the auto-repair rule and 10 transport capacity. Is the auto-repair 5 points? Or is it 1 point and 1 for every point of tc?
Taurox Prime 60 points has also 10 tc but only for scions and commissars. It hits at 3+.
Taurox with 55 points and 10 tc. Hitting only at 4+, so hitting at 3+ instead of 4+ is worth 5 points. With bs 4+ and only T6 but +4 tc it seems with 10 points less than the Razorback quite appropriate.
Chimera is 75 (incl. Lasgun array.) with 12 tc. As you can use that Array only when units are embarked it is worth zero, and only hitting at 4+, i say the chimera is 15 points too expensive. Furthermore it it lacks the fire point, which guard hws need so much.

Just don´t think at the Valkyrie or even Vendetta. As AM you go most time at last. The enemy will just blow it away. Especially when facing a Razorback-Fortress that includes Laserbacks and Guilliman or a Chaptermaster and Lieutenant.


Yes the best transport and points effective-wise may be even the best vehicle is the Razorback. SM don´t even have to pay a tactical squad tax they could take instead useful devastators or scouts (for even better screening through better deployment).
Even the Taurox Prime can only compete with the razorback vs. horde, with the Taurox Missile Pod and the way overpriced autocannon it can´t compete with neither the TLLC nor the TLAC.

The change of the of twin-linked rule from 2nd to 3rd was just stupid. It is double the guns so you should get double the shots for double the price.
But on that the TLAC has an advantage. A single assault cannon is 21 points, the TL version is only 35, why? A discount of 7 points. Yes it is little looking at 2000 points but still. A TLAC for 42 points would be at least more appropriate and also following the rules all others are following. Or is there any other TL weapon that is cheaper than 2 single versions?

Firefox1 wrote:
But on that the TLAC has an advantage. A single assault cannon is 21 points, the TL version is only 35, why? A discount of 7 points. Yes it is little looking at 2000 points but still. A TLAC for 42 points would be at least more appropriate and also following the rules all others are following. Or is there any other TL weapon that is cheaper than 2 single versions?

From Codex Space Marines:
Twin Heavy Plasma cannons save almost the entire second weapon, 34 to 30 points. But it's only available to a single model, so I assume that most of the price went into the Stormraven base price - stupid as that may be (as it makes the other options unattractive)
Lascannon & Twin Plasmagun saves 6 points on the plasmaguns
Twin Heavy Bolter saves 3 points, but is only half the price
Twin Heavy Flamer, Twin Lascannon, Twin Multi-Melta, Typhoon Missile Launchers save nothing
Hurricane Bolters are also pretty cheap compared to the regular Stormbolter, 3x the firepower for only twice the price.

From the FW Astartes Index:
Twin Magna-melta save 20 points, but that's at more than 3x the price of a TAC
Quad Heavy bolters save nothing over the Twin Heavy Bolter, even though the Twin one saves 3 points over the regular.
Quad Lascannons on the other hand save a full 20 points or 5 points per lascannon

Firefox1 wrote:
Taking a look at the transports, the cost policy is not that clear. Though most of their points are just paid for their staying power, as it is for all vehicles/MC.
Razorback is 65 with 6 tc.
Rhino is 70 points with the auto-repair rule and 10 transport capacity. Is the auto-repair 5 points? Or is it 1 point and 1 for every point of tc?
Taurox Prime 60 points has also 10 tc but only for scions and commissars. It hits at 3+.
Taurox with 55 points and 10 tc. Hitting only at 4+, so hitting at 3+ instead of 4+ is worth 5 points. With bs 4+ and only T6 but +4 tc it seems with 10 points less than the Razorback quite appropriate.
Chimera is 75 (incl. Lasgun array.) with 12 tc. As you can use that Array only when units are embarked it is worth zero, and only hitting at 4+, i say the chimera is 15 points too expensive. Furthermore it it lacks the fire point, which guard hws need so much.

Trukk with 82pts (88 for Rokkit or 91 with Wreckin Ball) and 12 TC. Hitting on 5+ It has a 4+ save, T6 and 10 wounds with Ramshackle which is a slightly better version of the Rhinos Auto-repair. If the Chimera is 15pts over priced this thing is probably 30+pts over priced. Honestly even if it was dropped to 52pts I wouldn't use it, it needs to be down around the 40s before it makes any kind of sense to field it in the numbers we saw the last few editions with speed freak lists.

Battlewagon with 161pts and 20TC hitting on 5s with T7 and 4+ save for 16wounds, It does have a special rule "Mobile Fortress" which does exactly nothing. If a Rhino is 70pts with a special rule that has a purpose, better armor save, 10wounds and better ballistic skill then this thing should be 110 at the absolute most, Probably closer to 100. If we use the assumption that 1TC is 1pt then this thing is paying (Currently) 91pts more then a rhino for 10 more TC, 6 more wounds and a plethora of ranged weapon options that nobody takes because they are heavily over priced.

I stopped using chimeras once they got rid of the amphibious rule, that was the final straw!

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
I stopped using chimeras once they got rid of the amphibious rule, that was the final straw!

Indeed, without the amphibious rule Chimerae are almost useless.

Yes, my Guard has stopped using the Chimera as it dies quickly and deep striking stormtroopers are much better. I used one (Chimera) in my two first battles and have not in the four since. The high cost is the main reason they have stopped being fielded.

Now the Wave Serpent, two were in my Eldar list for the battle I have fought, despite the high cost. As they are better than the Falcon and other Eldar tanks and the low toughness and high cost of Aspect Warriors means you need them, one was destroyed in the first round, but the Aspect Warriors bailed out without loss (only 5 models anyway).

Ork Truks are dying as quickly as my Chimeras and usually are just target magnets for the first turn...it does not even take more than a couple of hits to take them out.

My two cents,

CB

Indeed, I'm bringing transports (Trojans) and not even putting anything in them, because deep striking is just so much more useful.

There are really two things I like to do with Rhinos in my Thousand Sons army. First is I put 10 Tzannigors in a Rhino. This is only 142 points. So I can get the Tzannigors to their target in one piece, and more importantly use the Rhino to absorb the overwatch, which is particularly deadly against Tzannigors as they only have the 5++ save. This has worked pretty well. Also it is so cheap that if the enemy concentrates fire on it and kills the Rhino and some Tzannigors, who cares, those guys are here to die anyway and that means the enemy was not shooting at my more important units.

Second, sometimes I like to bring an empty Rhino, deploy it in the middle and just charge it right at the enemy. The purpose is that it is only 72 points for the Rhino and if it advances it will be really close to most enemies. So, my opponent needs to either direct some shooting at it, which means they are not shoot other units, or ignore it, and let me charge it where I want. If they let me charge it I usually try to get to shooty infantry/vehicles. The goal is not to kill them, but tie them up. For 72 points even tying up a shooty unit for one turn can mean the difference if it allows my other units to full fill their jobs.

I still think transports are a bit over priced however.

I'm just getting back into the game after 15 years off so please excuse any rust and or ignorance. I think in the case of SMs, Rhinos were so bad in the past, people adapted to alternatives thus the lack of them in lists. Now with 8th, they seem to be a much stronger unit. Once players start exploiting their strengths, there should be a resurgence in lists.

Rhinos are great, imo, but marines have nothing worthwhile to put in them.

The only transports I have are a chimera (magnetised - very glad I did so I can swap the multi laser to a heavy bolter as they are much better this edition) and a vendetta. I am yet to use either to carry troops even though I have used them in games many times.

For my Iron Warriors Marines I like the Rhinos, as with Objective Secured, they can more easily hang onto the objectives and get there more safely.

I also like Dreadclaws even though they are very points pricy.
Kharybdises are even better! And especially for Berzerkers. I don't even typically like to deepstrike them but it can be useful for super shooty or assault units that can reroll charges or somehow get close to the enemy after deepstriking (ala Warptime Sorcerer).

Drop Pods for my Grey Hunters have been neutered due to cost and them not being very killy on the drop. And darn it, Dreadnoughts can't even take them anymore :(

But in general I find myself using transports more, but more expensive ones with more guns. They can really tarpit stuff if done rightly. Then again, so can a bunch of giant spawns

 Mezmorki wrote:
Speaking of devastators, why would you ever take them over say a predator? 5 devastators have 5 wounds (instead of 11), 4 toughness (instead of 7). They can only move 6" instead of up to 12". When they take casualties they immediately lose a large part of their firepower. Oh, and the predator isn't that much more expensive either.

Marines can get into cover much more easily than a Predator and since they are only 1 wound each, multiwound guns like lascannons are kinda wasted on Marines. They can also take weapon options not available on the Predator like Plasma and Grav. Swings and roundabouts.

I am still using 3 transports in my 1850 Blood Angels army. Two Rhinos and a Razorback... and they actually get used as transports! Being able to cart around two five man squads each with a special weapon and combi/special pistol on the Sgt's is too valuable to pass up. Marines became more fragile, so getting the weapons that do the most damage to where they are needed is key. I also rarely get to go first, so forcing my opponent to either dedicate a good amount of firepower into dropping that transport to get to the squishy models inside, shooting at one of my Dreadnoughts, or at my Devastators can work in my favor.

If they leave the transport alone, they either get four Melta shots or eight Plasma shots to the face. If they take it out, they then have to chew through the models inside, and they still eat eight Missile Launcher shots or Multi-Meltas (if they are in range).

I'm not seeing any fewer transports, really. Fewer Drop Pods, sure, but not much of an effect on most things. The cover changes have made it easier to footslog, sure, but not enough to make things deployed on the table less dead than they were in 7th.

In a way that's the great triumph of the Primaris; not only are they effective without invalidating standard Marines, they're one of the few things I will actually deploy outside a transport because they take enough effort to get rid of that they aren't just gone instantly.

(And Wraithguard are still too short-ranged and slow to wander about on foot, and the Wave Serpent is still better than either the Falcon or the Fire Prism at being a main battle tank, so...)

If you're curious, the best transport in the game is the repressor.

ERJAK wrote:
If you're curious, the best transport in the game is the repressor.

(Runners-up include the Wave Serpent (still a better battle tank than the battle tanks even hauling a box of twelve dudes), Razorback (wildly efficient gun platform with a cargo bay), and the Venom/Starweaver (absurd and irritating to kill, incredibly fast, and open-topped so your Blasterborn/fusion-pistol clowns don't even need to get out).)

I actually have been considering giving the Chimera a second look after looking at how much firepower it takes to destroy one. It's surprisingly durable outside of really bad rolls.

Of course by itself my opponent has no reason to waste their time shooting at it, but that can be remedied by putting something scary inside. Like plasma command squads.

In terms of just getting the plasma on target, deep striking scions are more efficient of course because they don't have to pay an extra 91 points to drop in rapid fire range of their targets. But if the enemy is shooting at a chimera because they're afraid of its passengers they're not shooting at the rest of my army, and maybe that is worth something all by itself?

All transports are surprisingly durable if not faced with a half dozen krak missiles or lascannons. Generally they're quite survivable, particularly for their points costs.

Also amusing is that it takes an average of pi unsaved wounds from a d6 damage weapon to kill a chimera. (11/3.5=22/7=pi)

My Imperial Guard don't use any transports. If I want units to attack my opponent's backfield, I'll use Scions.

Chimeras are ludicrously expensive, given that their firepower is atrocious (outside of Heavy Flamers - but those bump their already-stupid costs up even more). What's more, someone on the GW design team drank a whole bucket of paint and decided to make both Veterans and SWSs Elites instead of troops. And I have no intention of putting a ~50pt Infantry Squad in a 100+pt Chimera.

Regarding DE, Venoms are garbage now and Raiders are okay, if overpriced. The thing is though, I'd much rather not have to use them at all. Unfortunately, those 2 transports are literally DE's entire claim to being a fast army. If you don't use them then about half your list will be footslogging. Because apparently HQs with Jump Packs, deep-striking Elites and Biker-troops are reserved for 'slow' armies.

Oh, and when everyone else is getting double the firepower from Twin weapons, that upgrade was removed from the Raider. Thanks, GW.

Necrons . . . let's just say I'm grateful that I never bothered investing in Ghost Arks.

 Mezmorki wrote:

Transports are nerfed, relatively, only in the fact that their points went way up for what you're getting.

Some got hit with more than just cost-increased. For example, the DE Venom not only had its cost increased by 50% but also had its only meaningful gun nerfed to hell (+50% cost, -50% shots outside of half-range).

Well, I was thinking 134 points of plasma command squads and an officer (the officer unlocking the second command squad is off commanding some infantry squads somewhere), and it would be not so much striking the backfield as rolling up to the front and finding something expensive-looking to kick in the nads.

Should be enough to draw some ire and put the chimera's stack of T7 wounds to work. And of course hopefully the vets will hop out and delete something at some point. Was thinking of having some searchlights so their plasma can hit on 2+ rerolling 1s, a stunt that is actually unique to them (tempestus can't use searchlights).

Going full glass-cannon alpha strike with scions is probably more efficient over all because the only defense they need is "dead models don't shoot back", but I think the above gimmick might at least be fun to try. And have a bit of a niche for punishing a list that can just barely cover themselves in 9" no-drop zones, but doesn't have enough models to screen a transport rush.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

 deviantduck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

Holy crap that thing is nuts!

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

Holy crap that thing is nuts!

Less nuts than it sounds, since it's essentially a Rhino with a extra Heavy Flamer. It's also move 10, which cuts a little bit into your vanguard move if you're playing Hammer and Anvil. It doesn't have 9 attacks; it makes 3 to-hit rolls for each attack.

However, it is pretty obviously competing for the title of best transport, thanks to the firepoints. The firepoints do it, because they allow it to actually be useful to us for moving and protecting troops and continue to be useful for moving and protecting troops throughout the game. For shooting armies, most transports are only valuable for resistance to alpha strikes and as cheap platforms for heavy weapons.

The key here is that the best transports are no longer transports. They are tanks.

SMs are using Razorbacks and Storm Ravens, they aren't transporting much if anything, they are just gun platforms.

If you have a transports in your list that isn't crammed with dakka you probably aren't using it.

I don't see Trukkz in use by ork players but I have seen a couple players using Battlewagons, Ironically they are the exception to the rule above. They are taken for the Deff Rolla CC attachment and the fact that they can transport 20 models (still not enough)

I have also seen some competitive lists using the Squiggoth as a transport...kind of. This thing functions in both Dakka and Close combat and has a lot of durability (not enough).

So basically the age of a cheap transport to move models is over, now it HAS TO have guns and a secondary purpose or its useless.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

Holy crap that thing is nuts!

Less nuts than it sounds, since it's essentially a Rhino with a extra Heavy Flamer. It's also move 10, which cuts a little bit into your vanguard move if you're playing Hammer and Anvil. It doesn't have 9 attacks; it makes 3 to-hit rolls for each attack.

However, it is pretty obviously competing for the title of best transport, thanks to the firepoints. The firepoints do it, because they allow it to actually be useful to us for moving and protecting troops and continue to be useful for moving and protecting troops throughout the game. For shooting armies, most transports are only valuable for resistance to alpha strikes and as cheap platforms for heavy weapons.

It moves 12", not 10".
Against INFANTRY units make three hit rolls for each attack rather than one if the Sororitas Repressor has successfully completed a charge this turn.
So it has 3 attacks, unless it's against infantry. Then it's 9. On a 5+, with -1 ap. Which I just noticed...

But yes, it's a Roidrhino.

Honestly, even in 7th I usually played large hordes of boyz - trukk boyz always seemed lackluster.

But this edition? Ork transports are garbage. Their open-topped does NOTHING to help assault now. Zilch.

Being open-topped is situationally nice for shooting units (but you can't overwatch), but generally not worth the 3x price of a trukk. And still, the only reason I ever brought vehicles was because they helped assaulting a bunch.

Battlewagons are a joke. They're about as durable as warbikers. 'Ard case is a decent upgrade, but only for transporting melee units. But I'm more than a little sore that frigging rhinos have a better save and only like 5 fewer wounds than a wagon for about half the cost.

And to be honest, why would I want to pay 90 to 200+ points for a fragile metal box with bad shooting and worse melee when I can pay 62 points for a wierdboy and just jump it?

But yeah, I only take ork transports now if I'm feeling silly. Their only good use is to eat overwatch. If in our codex, ork vehicles get some kind of bonus to charging units (maybe partial movement before disembarking), that MIGHT change, but in the end, I don't think they're ever going to be as effective as wierdboyz.

Bitching about orks aside, I still see marines taking transports, generally, land raiders especially. I don't think I've seen a drop pod once this edition. Wave serpents seem damn good.

What are thoughts about Tankbusta boyz in Trukks? Open-topped and the Trukk provides some protection for the boyz compared to having them in the open.

I dont think the Razorback qualifies as best transport. Its a great vehicle for shooting, but if youre moving it around to transport then that cost efficient shooting is now outside reroll bubbles and -1 to hit.

Im pissed the Rhino lost fire points. Without those it seems too expensive vs the Razor. I get the removal from the simplify the rules perspective, but then fricking FW leaves 6 fire points on that Sister tank? Yeah, Id love Rhinos if they had 6 fire points and optional 1-2 heavy flamers at the same base chasis cost.

bort wrote:
I dont think the Razorback qualifies as best transport. Its a great vehicle for shooting, but if youre moving it around to transport then that cost efficient shooting is now outside reroll bubbles and -1 to hit.

Im pissed the Rhino lost fire points. Without those it seems too expensive vs the Razor. I get the removal from the simplify the rules perspective, but then fricking FW leaves 6 fire points on that Sister tank? Yeah, Id love Rhinos if they had 6 fire points and optional 1-2 heavy flamers at the same base chasis cost.

Repressor isn't the same cost as a Rhino, it's more on par with a Razorback for cost. Considering that the firing points allow it to actually be useful as a transport, well, that makes it a better transport. Razorback is a better vehicle though.

It also specifically has 6 portholes to shoot out of for riot suppression, similar to the Chimera's portholes. The big top hatches that used to be 2fp each are gone on all vehicles, and they need to return.

I only use Rhinos for when I need to transport 10 man squads or 2x5 squads and that's because I don't own a Stormraven. Would love fire points for them but otherwise I always try and fit one in, just in case I need transporting.

Ork Trukks aren't worth it IMO. Tried it with Nobz, tried it with Tankbustas, tried it with Boyz. All of them sucked and there is only one constant between those scenarios.

Not used Rhinos with TS yet but I imagine they'll be the same as my BA in playing, 2x5 man squads that want to be closer (smite and Warpflamer).

For Rhinos for my Iron Warriors troops, is it good to load them up with a Havoc Launcher and combi-bolters? Or should I be taking the Havoc Launcher and combi-something else? Now I'm thinking since I have bolters inside perhaps the combi-plasmas might be better (durable platform and all).

Or is it better to have them cheap as possible without extra weapons? Sure wish they had destroyer blades as a thing still, for assault purposes that would be awesome!

I thought the Repressor was 73pts + guns? Thats basically same as the 70pt Rhino.

But yeah, fire points needed to either be removed everywhere for rule simplicity and costs lowered or 1-2 fps left on the Rhino. I don't think you want any tank too cheap or you'll get some weird parking lot list, so Id rather get the fps back.

bort wrote:
I thought the Repressor was 73pts + guns? Thats basically same as the 70pt Rhino.

But yeah, fire points needed to either be removed everywhere for rule simplicity and costs lowered or 1-2 fps left on the Rhino. I don't think you want any tank too cheap or you'll get some weird parking lot list, so Id rather get the fps back.

Repressor is 71 plus HF and SB (19) for 90.
Sororitas Rhino is 73 plus SB (2) for 75.

 Mezmorki wrote:
What are thoughts about Tankbusta boyz in Trukks? Open-topped and the Trukk provides some protection for the boyz compared to having them in the open.

I use them, 1-2 trukks full of bustas, but only because everything in my lists is embarked on transports, is a biker character or artilley. Decent in these kind of lists but not exceptional.

If you bring trukks in lists with only few hight T models those transports are dead turn 1. And since the greentide is the way to go for orks busta wagons, and vehicles in general, are not that common in competitive games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

bort wrote:
I thought the Repressor was 73pts + guns? Thats basically same as the 70pt Rhino.

But yeah, fire points needed to either be removed everywhere for rule simplicity and costs lowered or 1-2 fps left on the Rhino. I don't think you want any tank too cheap or you'll get some weird parking lot list, so Id rather get the fps back.

Repressor is 71 plus HF and SB (19) for 90.
Sororitas Rhino is 73 plus SB (2) for 75.

In my index SoB stormbolters cost 4 points. Is there a FAQ that reduced them to 2 points like the SM ones?

I play CSM. The rhinos are all in all good choices for many players according to my theorycrafting and mathhammering. There are several reasons, many of which apply in general to some of the other armies:
1) Transport, Rhino in this case, is essentially equally durable as Predator, but much less of a threat to opponent. Put in some killy squad, such as berserkers, then suddenly your cheap rhinos are high priority targets for the opponent. This provides more 'hard' targets for opponent's usually limited AT fire. More available choices for opponent usually equals in more bad choices made.
2) Transports can be deployed defensively as bubblewrap in certain situations when enemy has strong alpha or beta strike ability. Especially CSM Rhino can be kitted out to be quite a little dakkamachine: With Combibolter+Combi-flamer+Havoc Launcher it clocks at 94 pts.
3) Some transports, Rhino certainly, can be deployed to block LoS for enemy to protect your havoc/other shooting squad or atleast force the enemy move before they fire their weapons. You meanwhile remain able to reposition the rhino without moving the squad.
4) Bring down your drop number to increase your chances of going first.

Of course these points don't combine into making Rhino into some magical auto-win unit, but I managed to convince myself with these to order myself a few. I think having a few in my list will provide more flexibility and also cheap hard targets.

For clarification by hard targets I mean any T 7+, W 10+ and save 3+ or better units. Essentially units which require dedicated weaponry used against them as HB and AC spam isnt really optimal way to destroy them.
I myself try to go for 'pure' mechanised MEQ army (as I dislike cultists and hordes, partially for my available hobby time) and for this purpose Rhinos are excellent choices as HB and AC spam are ruthlessly efficient against exposed MEQs.

EDITS: Corrected few grammar mistakes and added one more sentence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Malathrim wrote:
For Rhinos for my Iron Warriors troops, is it good to load them up with a Havoc Launcher and combi-bolters? Or should I be taking the Havoc Launcher and combi-something else? Now I'm thinking since I have bolters inside perhaps the combi-plasmas might be better (durable platform and all).

Or is it better to have them cheap as possible without extra weapons? Sure wish they had destroyer blades as a thing still, for assault purposes that would be awesome!

I think maximum Dakka build (combi-bolter, combi-flamer, havoc launcher) is the way to go, but of course if starved for points these are something to cut. This max. dakka build just gives you more volume of fire against any horde type unit you might face, and this way does give your list more flexibility. I think combi-flamer is best option as to deter charges, and being cheapest, but of course plasma and melta can work. Remember with combi-plasmas that roll of 1 while overcharged will technically blow up your Rhino due to how the rule is worded.

I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

 Blackie wrote:

 pretre wrote:

bort wrote:
I thought the Repressor was 73pts + guns? Thats basically same as the 70pt Rhino.

But yeah, fire points needed to either be removed everywhere for rule simplicity and costs lowered or 1-2 fps left on the Rhino. I don't think you want any tank too cheap or you'll get some weird parking lot list, so Id rather get the fps back.

Repressor is 71 plus HF and SB (19) for 90.
Sororitas Rhino is 73 plus SB (2) for 75.

In my index SoB stormbolters cost 4 points. Is there a FAQ that reduced them to 2 points like the SM ones?

Yes, plus the ones in IA Index were already 2.

Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

Can confirm, I played two Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks yesterday, roasted wolves all over the place.

nekooni wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

Can confirm, I played two Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks yesterday, roasted wolves all over the place.

How a unit putting only 7 hit (average) could dominate the battlfield ?
I keep seeing people talking about how good flamers are, but with low S, few if any AP, short range and random number of shot, how are these weapons any good ?

I run 3 raiders in my DE list at 1000pts because I can, and I typically fill them with cheap witches and my succubus. Then I take as many cheap kabilite warriors and a cheap archon and just move forward unloading on my opponent as I advance. So far it's worked perfectly because at 1000 pts my opponent can't take out all 3 raiders, and with focusing on pure numbers over quality (warriors vs true born, witches vs blood brides) my opponent really has to make choices on what's a real threat vs what should he try and ignore for a turn.

 godardc wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

Can confirm, I played two Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks yesterday, roasted wolves all over the place.

How a unit putting only 7 hit (average) could dominate the battlfield ?
I keep seeing people talking about how good flamers are, but with low S, few if any AP, short range and random number of shot, how are these weapons any good ?

S5 isn't low strength though - it's almost perfect anti-infantry strength. AP-1 is perfect for taking down random infantry (you'll never "waste" that one AP, it's only in super-rare cases not going to do anything (++ = +; Sv2+ in Cover)).
it averages 7 hits on the move which is one more hit than a Twin Assault Cannon will manage. It wounds on 3s most infantry, same as a Twin Assault Cannon, it's also AP-1 and D1. I can use my Strategam to wound on 2s since I'm playing Salamanders, and having He'stan or an Lt. nearby helps even further. Yes, it trades that for a massively reduced range, but you also gain a pretty potent overwatch AND decent anti-air, too. It's not dominating the battlefield on it's own, but it's a pretty good alternative to a Twin Assault Cannon. The strategem allows the heavy flamers to damage anything on a 4+ or better (there is no T10 unit in the game as far as I know).

Granted, some of these things are exclusive to Salamanders, but it's still a pretty good alternative to Twin Assault Cannons even without those cherries on top.

That being said 2 Razorbacks with Twin Heavy Flamers do not "dominate" a battlefield. They're 10% of a 2000 points army, they do their job and do it pretty well for what they cost.

 deviantduck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

Yep, to bad they dont sell them anymore, but i use immolartors without the tops for them, i did convert one, but its not very well done, i need to try again.

 godardc wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

Can confirm, I played two Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks yesterday, roasted wolves all over the place.

How a unit putting only 7 hit (average) could dominate the battlfield ?
I keep seeing people talking about how good flamers are, but with low S, few if any AP, short range and random number of shot, how are these weapons any good ?

HF are good, auto hits are nice and S5 -1ap is something, tho they are costly, but on a vehicle with 6 Flamers in it, you can clear Infantry out really fast.

Flamers AUto hits lets you deal with those assassins too and some units that are Hard to hit, there are even a few -2 to hit units.

 godardc wrote:

How a unit putting only 7 hit (average) could dominate the battlfield ?

7 auto hitting shots is as good as 14 shots from a moving BS 3+ vehicle.

As a World Eater player, I typically use 3 Rhinos with Zerkers / Chaos Lords / Kharn in for a few reasons -

1) Deployment drop, can turn 6-8 drops into 3.

2) 3+ armor this edition really isn't what it was, even if I advance turn 1 with them all and I lost all 3 turn 1 It would be worth it to guarantee the turn 2 chargw

Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Can't you drive an Ork Trukk full of boys into a unit (charging them), and then on the next turn disembark the boys? Assuming you have enough space to place them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're not going to get a round of shooting or go very far.

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

The Wave Serpent only has 2 guns, tho 1 is a Twin, its 9 shots.

It also depends, for Aeldari, all armies have some transports, DE have 3-5, Quins have 3-5, Eldar has 1-3 (Tho its just for Turn 1 and they get out right away for Eldar).

If you saw 12 place player with Harlequins, he had 4 Transports.
.
Edit: Spelling

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Aren't Chimeras and Battlewagons both armed transports just like a Razorback or a Land Raider, respectively? Speaking of over-gunned transports - How many Repulsors have you seen? In what way is a Razorback of all things more of a tank than a Battlewagon, or a Chimera?

One of my problems with Guard is that the cost of the transports often does not outweight the cost of the unit transported in them. I have no incentive to transport regular infantry squads at the moment (but I am hoping that the Regiments rules for Steel Legion may alter that!) because they are not that great and I can buy almost 2 more squads for the price of a chimera. Vets aren't too bad but I have had some great success with putting 3 man Bullgryn squads in a chimera with a priest (and maybe I will experiment with a 4th now that I have more) since Bullgryns are stupidly powerful and hard to kill, you really cant argue with 13 Str 7 AP -1 D 2 hits against anything, I wouldnt doubt they could mulch a Knight if they got lucky on the charge! As stated before Tauroxe Primes are way underpriced for their firepower and are far more effective light tanks than they are transports (they should be glass cannons, its very much in their style, I just wish I had an incentive to my scions in them)

 generalchaos34 wrote:
One of my problems with Guard is that the cost of the transports often does not outweight the cost of the unit transported in them. I have no incentive to transport regular infantry squads at the moment (but I am hoping that the Regiments rules for Steel Legion may alter that!) because they are not that great and I can buy almost 2 more squads for the price of a chimera. Vets aren't too bad but I have had some great success with putting 3 man Bullgryn squads in a chimera with a priest (and maybe I will experiment with a 4th now that I have more) since Bullgryns are stupidly powerful and hard to kill, you really cant argue with 13 Str 7 AP -1 D 2 hits against anything, I wouldnt doubt they could mulch a Knight if they got lucky on the charge! As stated before Tauroxe Primes are way underpriced for their firepower and are far more effective light tanks than they are transports (they should be glass cannons, its very much in their style, I just wish I had an incentive to my scions in them)

The only thing I transport in my Guard are Command Squads loaded up with meltas or plasmaguns, backed by a Commander, inside a Valkyrie. everything else has to move under their own power.

nekooni wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Aren't Chimeras and Battlewagons both armed transports just like a Razorback or a Land Raider, respectively? Speaking of over-gunned transports - How many Repulsors have you seen? In what way is a Razorback of all things more of a tank than a Battlewagon, or a Chimera?

I actually have had a lot of fun using my Repulsor, the damned thing is a big box of Dakka, and it keeps my Hellblasters/Captain/Ancient safe from fire. My only issue with it is its a bit pricey and I had to print cards with the weapon names on them for designating fire for my opponents.

nekooni wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Aren't Chimeras and Battlewagons both armed transports just like a Razorback or a Land Raider, respectively? Speaking of over-gunned transports - How many Repulsors have you seen? In what way is a Razorback of all things more of a tank than a Battlewagon, or a Chimera?

A Razorback fires 12 S6 AP -1 shots for about 100 pts, 3+ if stationary, 4+ otherwise. Marines also get reroll auras.

The Chimera fires 6 S5 AP -1 shots at best, 9 if Forgeworld. It gets beat out by the Taurox Prime, which generally can shoot 20 S4 shots and 8 S4 AP -2 shots. Given that 8th flattened the wound chart, once you reach S4+, extra strength generally gives reduced returns compared to better AP mods.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

nekooni wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Aren't Chimeras and Battlewagons both armed transports just like a Razorback or a Land Raider, respectively? Speaking of over-gunned transports - How many Repulsors have you seen? In what way is a Razorback of all things more of a tank than a Battlewagon, or a Chimera?

A Razorback fires 12 S6 AP -1 shots for about 100 pts, 3+ if stationary, 4+ otherwise. Marines also get reroll auras.

The Chimera fires 6 S5 AP -1 shots at best, 9 if Forgeworld. It gets beat out by the Taurox Prime, which generally can shoot 20 S4 shots and 8 S4 AP -2 shots. Given that 8th flattened the wound chart, once you reach S4+, extra strength generally gives reduced returns compared to better AP mods.

I am aware of their stats. I wasn't comparing them based on their effectiveness, but on their role on the battlefield. Both are well-armed transports. You're just focussing on one option the Razorback has over the Chimera, while they literally can be equipped with the same primary weapons, too - 2/Twin Heavy Flamers or 2/Twin Heavy Bolters. Yes, the Twin Assault Cannon is probably the best choice, but that's a balance issue.

However I have to disagree on the notion that S4 is plenty enough. S5 is - to me - the most useful strength as it wounds TEQ and MEQ on 3+, not just GEQ. the next real bump is S7, as that's where many vehicles sit at, so you go from 5+ to 4+. S8 and S9 are also important steps as they're allowing to wound regular vehicles on 3+, and even the heaviest on a 4+ or (S9) a 3+ even.

The difference is that the chimera's best (only) options are the same as the razorback's worst options. Twin assault cannons is just better and twin lascannons brings a different capability.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The difference is that the chimera's best (only) options are the same as the razorback's worst options. Twin assault cannons is just better and twin lascannons brings a different capability.

Yes, but it is still an armoured transport. Both are, and both are pretty similar. That was the whole point. And a Razorback surely isn't "more of a tank" than a Battlewagon, even if it is more points-effective. That's all I'm saying.

And technically I think a Chimera could go with 3 Heavy Bolters or 1 Heavy Bolter and an Autocannon, both are decent options.

nekooni wrote:
you'll never "waste" that one AP, it's only in super-rare cases not going to do anything (++ = +; Sv2+ in Cover)

Just wanted to point out, that's not entirely true. Lucius Ad Mech all ignore -1AP as their Dogma ("Chapter Tactic") I'm pretty sure they won't be the only ones to have that rule... wasn't there something in the DG codex that did the same? It's basically a way to give a "more resilient model" that isn't quite as good as +1 to armour.

 Purifier wrote:

nekooni wrote:
you'll never "waste" that one AP, it's only in super-rare cases not going to do anything (++ = +; Sv2+ in Cover)

Just wanted to point out, that's not entirely true. Lucius Ad Mech all ignore -1AP as their Dogma ("Chapter Tactic") I'm pretty sure they won't be the only ones to have that rule... wasn't there something in the DG codex that did the same? It's basically a way to give a "more resilient model" that isn't quite as good as +1 to armour.

yes, but that wasn't public knowledge when I wrote that, was it??

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

I actually like the fact that units can assault on the turn they disembark. Finally my units like Banshees and Wraithblades have a way of reaching the enemy without getting shot to pieces. For me the ability to assault out of Wave Serpents and Rhinos more than covers the loss of being able to disembark after movement.

 Karhedron wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

I actually like the fact that units can assault on the turn they disembark. Finally my units like Banshees and Wraithblades have a way of reaching the enemy without getting shot to pieces. For me the ability to assault out of Wave Serpents and Rhinos more than covers the loss of being able to disembark after movement.

Armies that could assault after disembarking in 7th are almost crippled by the new rule. In fact orks play footsloggers almost everytime, while one the major complain about 7th was about our vehicles being paper things, now they're more resilient but the new mechanic discourage to play embarked assault units. Same for DE, they were better before, now you risk a turn in the open if you want to assault.

 Blackie wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

I actually like the fact that units can assault on the turn they disembark. Finally my units like Banshees and Wraithblades have a way of reaching the enemy without getting shot to pieces. For me the ability to assault out of Wave Serpents and Rhinos more than covers the loss of being able to disembark after movement.

Armies that could assault after disembarking in 7th are almost crippled by the new rule. In fact orks play footsloggers almost everytime, while one the major complain about 7th was about our vehicles being paper things, now they're more resilient but the new mechanic discourage to play embarked assault units. Same for DE, they were better before, now you risk a turn in the open if you want to assault.

Things that used to be assault vehicles still could be, if they allowed for movement, and assault out of the vehicle in the assault phase. I understand that move->disembark->assault made for a REAAALLY long potential charge in 8th, but why not just say that an assault vehicle moves and then you measure charge as if it was the vehicle charging, letting the inhabitants charge straight out of it?

 Purifier wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

I actually like the fact that units can assault on the turn they disembark. Finally my units like Banshees and Wraithblades have a way of reaching the enemy without getting shot to pieces. For me the ability to assault out of Wave Serpents and Rhinos more than covers the loss of being able to disembark after movement.

Armies that could assault after disembarking in 7th are almost crippled by the new rule. In fact orks play footsloggers almost everytime, while one the major complain about 7th was about our vehicles being paper things, now they're more resilient but the new mechanic discourage to play embarked assault units. Same for DE, they were better before, now you risk a turn in the open if you want to assault.

Things that used to be assault vehicles still could be, if they allowed for movement, and assault out of the vehicle in the assault phase. I understand that move->disembark->assault made for a REAAALLY long potential charge in 8th, but why not just say that an assault vehicle moves and then you measure charge as if it was the vehicle charging, letting the inhabitants charge straight out of it?

If I can move the vehicle, disembark and charge I can get into assault almost for sure. Otherwise If the vehicle moves and I can't assault the crew will likely remain inside it, letting the enemy unit move away. Which means a really long charge that can be easily failed. If you charge with the vehicle and the crew embarked only the vehicle is allowed to fight and tipycally vehicles are useless in combat, they just act as tarpits.

I've tried rhinos and they were pretty worthless, tried razorbacks last night wasn't wow'd.

 Blackie wrote:


If I can move the vehicle, disembark and charge I can get into assault almost for sure. Otherwise If the vehicle moves and I can't assault the crew will likely remain inside it, letting the enemy unit move away. Which means a really long charge that can be easily failed. If you charge with the vehicle and the crew embarked only the vehicle is allowed to fight and tipycally vehicles are useless in combat, they just act as tarpits.

I'm not sure if you realise I was not talking about how it is, but a wishlisting on how I think assault vehicles should have still had an edge against non-assault vehicles.

nekooni wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The difference is that the chimera's best (only) options are the same as the razorback's worst options. Twin assault cannons is just better and twin lascannons brings a different capability.

Yes, but it is still an armoured transport. Both are, and both are pretty similar. That was the whole point. And a Razorback surely isn't "more of a tank" than a Battlewagon, even if it is more points-effective. That's all I'm saying.

And technically I think a Chimera could go with 3 Heavy Bolters or 1 Heavy Bolter and an Autocannon, both are decent options.

But it is. The difference between a tank and a transport is effective weapons. An up-gunned battlewagon just isn't as as good as a TwnAC or TwnLC razorback.

Lets take a T7 3+ target with the shooting vehicle moving.

Killkannon - avg wounds 0.39. 82% of the time it does nothing.
Kannon - avg 0.26 wounds. 93% of the time it does nothing.

Compared to
Twn LC - avg 2 wounds. 52% of the time it does nothing
TwnAC - avg 1 wounds - 35% of the time it does nothing

How can a battlewagon be considered a tank when 90% of the time it won't inflict a single wound on another tank? It's a transport that you can, if you're foolish, give some completely useless guns to. Razorbacks at least have sufficient damage output to be useful.

Razorback to chimera isn't nearly as big a difference but the the Taurox Prime is just utterly superior to the Chimera.

 Blackie wrote:

If I can move the vehicle, disembark and charge I can get into assault almost for sure. Otherwise If the vehicle moves and I can't assault the crew will likely remain inside it, letting the enemy unit move away. Which means a really long charge that can be easily failed. If you charge with the vehicle and the crew embarked only the vehicle is allowed to fight and tipycally vehicles are useless in combat, they just act as tarpits.

You are assuming a long flat board and no movement penalties. Frequently if the enemy moves away from you, they will be at a disadvantage. Heavy weapons will be at -1 to hit. They may be moving away from cover or objectives they need to hold. Granted some units may not suffer from backing away from your transport but even they will run out of board to back away onto after a turn or so. On a 6x4 board, backing away from an approaching transport will likely only work once, particularly if you have multiple transports approaching.

If the enemy is simply reacting to your moves instead of choosing his own, you are dictating the terms of the battle and that can be a big advantage in itself.

I think the bigger transports like Land Raiders and Storm Wolves are now much better than in 7th.
I'll be using a Crusader with 2 small squads and a jump character inside in a small tournament tomorrow. I'm really anxious to see how it works out.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
One of my problems with Guard is that the cost of the transports often does not outweight the cost of the unit transported in them. I have no incentive to transport regular infantry squads at the moment (but I am hoping that the Regiments rules for Steel Legion may alter that!) because they are not that great and I can buy almost 2 more squads for the price of a chimera.

This is a big concern for me as well. Right now there is very little incentive to use chimeras because the units being transported might as well use "Move,move,move" & use the extra points for more infantry. Chimeras needed a points reduction in 7th edition & instead got an increase in points, now suffer -1BS, lost rear firing ports, lost amphibious rule, lost command vehicle rule. They are so bad I have to believe this was an oversight. No one in their right mind is going to field them like this. Even if they negated the -BS & other losses, it still would need a hefty points reduction. As it stands, if they are not fixed in the codex we likely won't be seeing them for at least a couple years on the tabletop.

A bunch of recent comments suggest this to me:

#1) Good cover and terrain rules are needed. Terrain, in particular the need for LoS blocking (and the general lack thereof) and better rules about getting cover / intervening cover, is needed. Ideally, this should be coupled to movement penalties for difficult ground. As a poster said, trying to flee from an imminent charge should have some risk that moving back through cover might slow you down (and likewise might slow the charging unit).

#2) Vehicles should be able to leave wrecks and block LoS and/or provide cover as an intervening unit. Rhinos (or Trukks more likely) would be more useful if the squad hiding in them, upon having the trukk blown up, weren't immediately stuck in the open but could get some cover around the vehicle.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

If I can move the vehicle, disembark and charge I can get into assault almost for sure. Otherwise If the vehicle moves and I can't assault the crew will likely remain inside it, letting the enemy unit move away. Which means a really long charge that can be easily failed. If you charge with the vehicle and the crew embarked only the vehicle is allowed to fight and tipycally vehicles are useless in combat, they just act as tarpits.

You are assuming a long flat board and no movement penalties. Frequently if the enemy moves away from you, they will be at a disadvantage. Heavy weapons will be at -1 to hit. They may be moving away from cover or objectives they need to hold. Granted some units may not suffer from backing away from your transport but even they will run out of board to back away onto after a turn or so. On a 6x4 board, backing away from an approaching transport will likely only work once, particularly if you have multiple transports approaching.

If the enemy is simply reacting to your moves instead of choosing his own, you are dictating the terms of the battle and that can be a big advantage in itself.

I've just noticed about how assault transports were in 7th and how they are now. The -1 penalty for heavy weapons is nothing, in 7th they would hit on 6s if they move and a -1 penalty is nothing compared to the scenario in which that unit is obliterated in close combat, or at least stuck and not allowed to fire next turn.

The majority of assault units can't bear a whole turn of shooting, if they don't reach combat in turn 2 (if not turn 1) they're screwed. And the entire army with them.

In 8th there are only a few transports that carry assault units while being common in casual games (I'm not even mentioning competitive formats). The most common transports have become razorbacks and serpents, which carry mostly shooty units. Even the dark eldar have become a full shooty army once again, grots in raiders are almost disappeared. Orks trukks usually carry tankbustas and nothing else.

I've always played assault armies and the new transports mechanic is huge, a great penalty for close combat oriented armies. Which are also suffering from the ability that ALL enemy units now have to run away from combat. Yes transports are now more resilient but even way more expensive. Assault units in trasports are almost gone, only expensive elite squads are still viable and tipycally they ride in heavy tanks or flyers, not ordinary transports.

Aeldari transports are still viable.

The Wave Serpent is the best or 2nd best transport in the game. Its very durable and good weaponry.

One of our DE players fields everything based on Venoms, Raiders, and Ravagers. No troop units, just Trueborn with blasters and splinter cannons. This army is quite feared.

Harlies need transports to get where they want to.

Another issue (although, relatively minor) is that units are not changing the Role of Heavy Support and Fast Attack Transports to being Dedicated Transport as much any more. It happened all the time from 3rd Edition on up through 7th (Terminators in Land Raiders, for example). This is not so much the case any more.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Aeldari transports are still viable.

The Wave Serpent is the best or 2nd best transport in the game. Its very durable and good weaponry.

One of our DE players fields everything based on Venoms, Raiders, and Ravagers. No troop units, just Trueborn with blasters and splinter cannons. This army is quite feared.

Harlies need transports to get where they want to.

Harlequins and drukhari can't play without vehicles. But drukhari's raiders and venoms are now mostly reserved for shooty units, what does the wave serpent carry usually? Shooty units. Only harlequins are assault oriented that ride in transports but with only 8 units available including 4 characters it's not a matter of choice, they are forced to play like that.

 Blackie wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

If I can move the vehicle, disembark and charge I can get into assault almost for sure. Otherwise If the vehicle moves and I can't assault the crew will likely remain inside it, letting the enemy unit move away. Which means a really long charge that can be easily failed. If you charge with the vehicle and the crew embarked only the vehicle is allowed to fight and tipycally vehicles are useless in combat, they just act as tarpits.

You are assuming a long flat board and no movement penalties. Frequently if the enemy moves away from you, they will be at a disadvantage. Heavy weapons will be at -1 to hit. They may be moving away from cover or objectives they need to hold. Granted some units may not suffer from backing away from your transport but even they will run out of board to back away onto after a turn or so. On a 6x4 board, backing away from an approaching transport will likely only work once, particularly if you have multiple transports approaching.

If the enemy is simply reacting to your moves instead of choosing his own, you are dictating the terms of the battle and that can be a big advantage in itself.

I've just noticed about how assault transports were in 7th and how they are now. The -1 penalty for heavy weapons is nothing, in 7th they would hit on 6s if they move and a -1 penalty is nothing compared to the scenario in which that unit is obliterated in close combat, or at least stuck and not allowed to fire next turn.

The majority of assault units can't bear a whole turn of shooting, if they don't reach combat in turn 2 (if not turn 1) they're screwed. And the entire army with them.

In 8th there are only a few transports that carry assault units while being common in casual games (I'm not even mentioning competitive formats). The most common transports have become razorbacks and serpents, which carry mostly shooty units. Even the dark eldar have become a full shooty army once again, grots in raiders are almost disappeared. Orks trukks usually carry tankbustas and nothing else.

I've always played assault armies and the new transports mechanic is huge, a great penalty for close combat oriented armies. Which are also suffering from the ability that ALL enemy units now have to run away from combat. Yes transports are now more resilient but even way more expensive. Assault units in trasports are almost gone, only expensive elite squads are still viable and tipycally they ride in heavy tanks or flyers, not ordinary transports.

In 5th, transports were "move 12, disembark 2." In 6th and 7th, they're "move 6, disembark 6." So from 14" of threat to 12". This is before getting into changes to Fleet and 6th ed making charge distances random of course. If anything, the main thing that weakened transports in 6th/7th was removing the ability to charge from a stationary transport; this means transports were better as pillboxes, or for delivering short-range shooting (ex: Tau Breachers) than for assault.

In 8th, it's now "disembark 3, move (usually 6)" or about 9". So in all, the main point of giving assault units transports (more speed) has been gradually diminished. Given a transport could still fire 1 gun normally after moving 6 and disembarking, this in itself is a nerf in a vacuum. However, the changes to twin-linked (double shots) combined with reroll auras make it a wash...if you're an Imperial that is. Better luck next time, Orks.

Not a lot of love for the Chimera it seems. I'm not really into Scions, so this weekend I plan to put in an attack with:

3 x Chimera with 2 H Flamer and S bolter, carrying -

6 x flamer (in 2 weapons squads)
Company Commander and 8 x plasma (2 x command squads)
3 x melta and shotguns (vet squad)

Devil Dog

Knight Paladin.

I have no idea how it's gunna go? But I can unequivocally say it's gunna be a hell of a lot of fun

 wuestenfux wrote:
Aeldari transports are still viable.

The Wave Serpent is the best or 2nd best transport in the game. Its very durable and good weaponry.

One of our DE players fields everything based on Venoms, Raiders, and Ravagers. No troop units, just Trueborn with blasters and splinter cannons. This army is quite feared.

Harlies need transports to get where they want to.

Not nitpicking. Just curious cause I just came back to hobby.
If wave serpent is the second best transport, what is the best?

macexor wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Aeldari transports are still viable.

The Wave Serpent is the best or 2nd best transport in the game. Its very durable and good weaponry.

One of our DE players fields everything based on Venoms, Raiders, and Ravagers. No troop units, just Trueborn with blasters and splinter cannons. This army is quite feared.

Harlies need transports to get where they want to.

Not nitpicking. Just curious cause I just came back to hobby.
If wave serpent is the second best transport, what is the best?

I assume the "best" is considered to be the Razorback, with it's option for Twin Linked Assault Cannons. It's just very shooty for the price.


More to the point on this thread though, I just played a game with 3 Drop Pods and a Rhino in a 2000 point match. It was an experiment, but it went well. Using the transports to protect the models inside and counterplay when not going first has it's uses. The fact that they aren't "dedicated" is also useful, allowing to swap out your passengers from battle to battle, depending on how you want to play it. Very situational, but we were playing with the mission cards and we drew "Slash and Burn" (I think that's what it's called). Arguably, if we hadn't drawn the card that forces a second win condition, I could have dropped my Ob Sec troops onto his three objectives in the first turn and just won the game outright, as he had no troops. Instead I fought it out and the counter-positioning put me in a good place by the end of turn two (we couldn't finish the game for time.) I will be trying Drop Pods out again.

If drop pods could transport bulky models like wulfen or dreads they would be good or at least decent once again. Otherwise a rhino is cheaper, mobile and can do the same job.

Blackie,
If one wants a Can in a Can, there is still the good old Lucius Pattern Dreadnaught Drop Pod.
Also, as I just spent 15-30 minutes and am still puzzling - why do you think Wolfen are not allowed in Drop Pods?

 Blackie wrote:
If drop pods could transport bulky models like wulfen or dreads they would be good or at least decent once again. Otherwise a rhino is cheaper, mobile and can do the same job.

Oh god no, a Drop Pod gets you across the table, the long way, on demand. Nuthin faster, and you can't shoot it on the way. If Drop Pods don't work for you that's fine, but a Rhino is no replacement for the Drop Pod if you want the entire table open to you on a whim. My Rhino protected models in my deployment zone for a turn, then died. I Dropped in two phases, turn 1 and 2, and the drops were no where near my original battle line, the last drop might have been 30" away from my previous, and both combat squads shot and then assaulted successfully against models with the game winning objective, clearing it and taking it themselves. Can't do that with a Rhino.

Rhinos can soak a lot of firepower though, while pods don't. Power armor guys are easy to kill in the open, and pods don't work with meltas or flamers, just multi meltas which are quite expensive. I used to run 3 pods with SW in 7th edition but at the same cost you can have 3 razorbacks with assault cannons now which can also benefit from the wolf lord/bjorn ability to re rolls failed hit of 1s.

With the exception of devastators/long fangs with multimeltas other units in power armor don't seem particularly effective if carried by drop pods, they're not extremely deadly in shooting and they're average at most in melee.

But I'm seeing the matter from my perspective maybe, I usually run assault oriented armies and pods would not work against orks, dark eldar or even SW. And they're definitely not working with SW.

Transports like Rhinos can also be useful in the assault phase.

Just charge with the Rhino first into the enemy unit. It can fire overwatch. But if the Rhino survives, it will not be able to fire overwatch again when the next (more valuable assault) unit charges into it.

My gaming group plays 2000 pts standard now, and even then it's not enough for overpriced transports (of which I have dozens).

My poor Orkz took it the worst. An ork trukk costs the same as 12 boyz, that would have a bigger impact overall.

That said I do enjoy the greater durability of vehicles now.

With the changes to a move stat and advance, on the average table there's not much need for a transport to get you where you need to go. That said, I do take a lot of units that can deep strike.

The secondary role of being a weapons platform advantages Razorbacks over Rhinos.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
My gaming group plays 2000 pts standard now, and even then it's not enough for overpriced transports (of which I have dozens).

My poor Orkz took it the worst. An ork trukk costs the same as 12 boyz, that would have a bigger impact overall.

That said I do enjoy the greater durability of vehicles now.

Yeah got to say having faced trukks mobz they are not scary at all 12 boys just don't threaten my blood claws much and bounce off terminators, you really need those big mobz to do anything.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
My gaming group plays 2000 pts standard now, and even then it's not enough for overpriced transports (of which I have dozens).

My poor Orkz took it the worst. An ork trukk costs the same as 12 boyz, that would have a bigger impact overall.

That said I do enjoy the greater durability of vehicles now.

The second place player in my local league ran a Battlewagon in his list, but rarely loaded anyone up into the thing. Apparently, he won quite a few games because of the thing, but it did everything except transport model, since it couldn't fit his Boyz mobs inside of it until after they had been neutered beyond uselessness.

I think Orks problem is that the transports are all smaller than the minimum squad size at which the extra attack kicks in.




The first place list [mine, Mech Dominions] was also was fully mechanized and used transports to transport things. I think transports are quite powerful this edition, actually; I just think that some armies have not been provided with ones that adequately meet their transporting needs. After all, if your squad size basically has to be 30 but your biggest transport only holds 20, you're not going to be fielding a lot of transports, are you?

 Blackie wrote:
[
In 8th there are only a few transports that carry assault units while being common in casual games (I'm not even mentioning competitive formats). The most common transports have become razorbacks and serpents, which carry mostly shooty units. Even the dark eldar have become a full shooty army once again, grots in raiders are almost disappeared. Orks trukks usually carry tankbustas and nothing else.

My Razorbacks carry Grey Hunters who are decent in assault at a pinch.

My Wave Serpents regularly transport CC infantry. I played against AdMech yesterday and I had a unit of Banshees in one Serpent and a unit of Wraithblades in the other. The Wraithblades made it into my opponent's deployment zone on turn 2 and carved up the units he was using to guard his home Objective. The Banshees hung near the Reapers and when some Skitarri teleported in to try and assasinate the Reapers, the Banshees hopped out and promptly sliced them to ribbons.

Transports work perfectly well as assault-enablers, particularly if they have a 16" move like the Wave Serpent.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
[
In 8th there are only a few transports that carry assault units while being common in casual games (I'm not even mentioning competitive formats). The most common transports have become razorbacks and serpents, which carry mostly shooty units. Even the dark eldar have become a full shooty army once again, grots in raiders are almost disappeared. Orks trukks usually carry tankbustas and nothing else.

My Razorbacks carry Grey Hunters who are decent in assault at a pinch.

My Wave Serpents regularly transport CC infantry. I played against AdMech yesterday and I had a unit of Banshees in one Serpent and a unit of Wraithblades in the other. The Wraithblades made it into my opponent's deployment zone on turn 2 and carved up the units he was using to guard his home Objective. The Banshees hung near the Reapers and when some Skitarri teleported in to try and assasinate the Reapers, the Banshees hopped out and promptly sliced them to ribbons.

Transports work perfectly well as assault-enablers, particularly if they have a 16" move like the Wave Serpent.

SO because they get special rules that make them far better then the average transport they are ok to take.....let that sink in

I sometimes find transports to be useful. Chaos Rhinos are a great way to get Berzerkers or Possessed up the field for not too many points, plus they can take the heat off of said units by charging and soaking the overwatch. For loyalist marines (like my Dark Angels and Space Wolves), Razorbacks and Rhinos are decent, but Drop Pods, once the greatest transport in the game, are now hot garbage. For Tau, Devilfish are reasonably durable and absolutely necessary for getting any mileage out of Breacher teams. Pathfinders can make good use of them also if they need to relocate (or get into RF range with Rail Rifles). I also have a friend who plays Genestealer Cult, and he swears by the tactic of using Acolytes in a Goliath Truck and doing a Demo Charge drive-by. It's pretty mean, I can tell you from experience.

So many transports these days are taken for their guns, rather than their transport abilities. The Razorback, Stormraven, Taurox Prime, and Land Raider Crusader are all good examples of this (although many do use the LRC as a transport as well). Maybe tanks need a price drop to encourage players to take actual battle tanks instead of APCs for their gunlines.

SemperMortis wrote:
For Orkz our trukkz went from 30 to 88pts....so Why would you pay 88pts to transport 72pts of boyz? especially since hte trukk is useless afterwards except as a bullet sponge.

You just answered your own question right there, a bullet sponge. If your opponent is busy shooting at an empty trukk, he's not shooting at another unit that is more useful Vehicles have a psychological effect on people, it seems like they generate an unreasonable amount of hate and people feel they absolutely must die, even if that means spending more effort than it's worth.

It's simple maths. They cost more so you'll see less.

Let's take a hypothetical real world scenario:
Apple's cost you 40silver, for 20gold (100silver to 1gold) you could get 50 before. Then all of a sudden the (far) right wing media moguls who control over 80% of your media start to try to brainwash the population into fearing anyone with an unusual (to them) sounding name and a different passport, although realisitcially it wasn't 'all of a sudden' but instead a decade of subversive far right rethoic presented as 'representing the people'. After this they pressure the government they basically own into hosting a vote to leave the largest economic bloc in the world as they do not like the regulations and workers rights trying to restrain the extent of the inequality gap between themselves and their fellow billionaires in comparison to the average person.

At the same time, the right wing government in power put a decade long pay freeze on all public sector workers despite huge hikes in inflation meaning over 10 years they received the equivalent of a 17+% pay cut. Whilst also absolutely gutting the benefit safety net forcing a huge swathe of people into poverty. All this whilst corruptly selling off vast amounts of the public sector at 'mates rates' to friends and family, ensuring off shore tax havens run in the countries territories are kept open for these friends and family. Also failing to invest in infrastructure and the public services (instead making cuts in these) and quadruppling the national debt.

Now in this hypothetical scenario, the majority of the population become a lot poorer in comparison to before and have to be a lot more careful with where they spend their money. That should mean prices come down due to competition, but this doesnt become the case as it then becomes apparent that they are in a global market and other countries havent cut off their nose to spite their face and unfortunately the countries imports are well exceeding what is going out of the country and prices remain the same or increase. Combined with this is the fact that small businesses are struggling because of the lack of spending by the majority of the population and the tightening restrictions of attempting to get any loan from the banks. The economy within the country becomes even more tilted towards the major corporations who can afford to have a 10meter by 10meter 1 floor headquarters in a tax haven.

Inflation rockets, especially since the central national bank, who print extra money, owned by a certain billionaire friend of the media moguls, has always been pushing to stretch the inequality gap. He is extremely successful and inequality reaches the highest it's been in the country for 150 years. The population stay in a catatonic state brainwashed by 80% of the media, who they never realise are not working in their interests. Even despite their being multiple independent studies highlighting how the nationally owned news is highly (but subtly) biased towards the right, lets call them the CCB, huge trust is still placed in this corporation who backs the government enacting everything that is going wrong in the country. In the eyes of many, it's still the fault of those people with the funny names though, and the country needs to get rid of most of them and break away from the countries they came from.

The country becomes the second biggest laughing stock in the world (not the first but that's an entierly different hypothetical story) yet it's people still won't wake up to the fact that they are suffering the biggest scam in history played upon them by the media billionaires and the governmental puppets they have in their pockets. Especially since they savage the opposition at every opportunity yet rarely criticise the government. Some companies leave, others threaten to, despite amazingly low corporation tax (the lowest by far in the 20 most powerful nations, lets call this group the F20) they realise the population won't vote against the people destroying the country. The Independent Monetary Fund, named the FMI in this story, say they are very worried about the country becoming the first failed first world state in history.

Due to all of this prices rocket on everything and the price of apples go up to 100 silver (or 1gold) meaning you can only afford 20 now with your 20 gold.

Basically, same points but higher cost means you can afford less, so of course you'll see less in games.

I hope my hypothetical explanation helped.

 Karhedron wrote:

My Razorbacks carry Grey Hunters who are decent in assault at a pinch.

6 grey hunters are good in assault against few units to be honest. I also field them in razorbacks but those tanks are basically sitting and shooting the entire game because their best quality is the twin assault cannon for dirt cheap, even better if combined with the re-rolls of a wolf lord or bjorn. If you move the tanks you cripple their shooting and the units that are embarked are not superstars in melee, so they're not worthy as a transport. I mostly use those grey hunters to prevent enemy assault units to charge the tanks, screening them, or to footslog towards an objective after turn 1.

Rhinos are better for supporting assault units, they're cheaper, they don't care about moving and shooting since their weapon is a basic rapid fire gun and they can carry more bodies. I actually think that rhinos are the best transport in the game, along with wave serpents and sororitas tanks. Razorbacks are amazing right now beacuse of their shooting abilities, they're cheap and resilient gun boats, they should be priced around 130-140 points if equipped with assault cannons or lascannons.