Greetings humble guardsmen,

Today saw the release of the mordian iron guard regimental tactics, as well as an update for the leman russ!
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/26/regiment-focus-mordian-sep26gw-homepage-post-2/
The commisariat has sent a survey to you, asking for your opinions in these developments. Response not optional.

I can see mordian leman russ, especially the punisher, being extremely powerful, with the ability to fire 40, yes 40! shots, and then hit on 5s in overwatch. Characters are going to have a very nasty time too.

ummm... wow.
that change to the russ is huge.

The change to grinding advance is glorious. I've only ever moved a leman russ once to get around some LOS blocking terrain. Double the shots against the primarch of the month? Yes Please.

Mordian's traits seem great for infantry but lackluster for vehicles. We really don't have much armor that can handle being charged even with the buff. Plus, what mordian player is going to allow their vehicles to be charged before their massive infantry formations are cut down?

Double the firepower of a Russ!?! Wow. I cant wait to see what the Steel Legion gets!

So what it is saying with that stratagem and doctrine that Mordian tanks can hit technically on a 4+ on Overwatch.

Who needs snipers when you have Mordians. That form firing squad order is pretty brutal.

 Kellevil wrote:
Double the firepower of a Russ!?! Wow. I cant wait to see what the Steel Legion gets!

Grinding Advance doesn't look like a Mordian specific rule. It's just showcasing a new rule the LR gets. So Steel Legion gets double the firepower of a Russ too.

Not a terrible trait for Mordian, but not amazing either. I think with the Russ buff, the Catachan trait will still be more useful for all the D6 turret weapons.

We'll see what the other regiments have to offer, but I'm already doubting I'll run my Mordians with the Mordian traits.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The change to grinding advance is glorious. I've only ever moved a leman russ once to get around some LOS blocking terrain. Double the shots against the primarch of the month? Yes Please.

Mordian's traits seem great for infantry but lackluster for vehicles. We really don't have much armor that can handle being charged even with the buff. Plus, what mordian player is going to allow their vehicles to be charged before their massive infantry formations are cut down?

Well, with the defensive gunners strat and a Punisher I might consider using the Russ to screen the infantry rather than the other way around. Send that thing rumbling straight toward their assault units at 5" a turn, if they want to get past it they have to deal with 40 shots at BS4+ in both shooting and overwatch!

Though I guess if any actually make it through, then they'll "only" have to deal with the overwatch on subsequent turns because there's no GBitF for vehicles.

People need to remember that in 8th, you can fire unlimited amounts of Overwatchs in the same turn (Unless you are charged, of course)

 Purifier wrote:
Who needs snipers when you have Mordians. That form firing squad order is pretty brutal.

 Kellevil wrote:
Double the firepower of a Russ!?! Wow. I cant wait to see what the Steel Legion gets!

Grinding Advance doesn't look like a Mordian specific rule. It's just showcasing a new rule the LR gets. So Steel Legion gets double the firepower of a Russ too.

That's what I get for skimming the article

The Russ change is solid though I'm not sure it'll leapfrog to the top of the IG vehicle pool. Going to have to check.

Why is every guard army getting a bonus to LD? It could just be a coincidence with the last two, but it'll be weird if every regiment gets it.

Conscripts now overwatch as effectively as they normall shoot. That's actually a fairly big buff to the unit, particularly if it's get charged by a choppy glass cannon unit, like bezerkers or genestealers. Of course how good it is largely depends on how they address conscripts in the first place.

The sniper thing looks good, but honestly even the tougher generic HQs will shake off a shocking number of plasma shots. You've either gotta run a lot of plasma command squads and load them up in chimeras with your HQ or it won't amount to much.

SilverAlien wrote:
The Russ change is solid though I'm not sure it'll leapfrog to the top of the IG vehicle pool.

They don't have to. They just need to be a viable choice, and this gives them that, and then some.

SilverAlien wrote:
The Russ change is solid though I'm not sure it'll leapfrog to the top of the IG vehicle pool. Going to have to check.

Why is every guard army getting a bonus to LD? It could just be a coincidence with the last two, but it'll be weird if every regiment gets it.

Conscripts now overwatch as effectively as they normall shoot. That's actually a fairly big buff to the unit, particularly if it's get charged by a choppy glass cannon unit, like bezerkers or genestealers. Of course how good it is largely depends on how they address conscripts in the first place.

The sniper thing looks good, but honestly even the tougher generic HQs will shake off a shocking number of plasma shots. You've either gotta run a lot of plasma command squads and load them up in chimeras with your HQ or it won't amount to much.

Remember lasguns are rapid fire weapons too so you can do this with your conscripts. Also, the leadership buff is very fluffy for mordians, not so sure about catachans, but well see

The Russ Buff has been loooong overdue. This actually makes them a considerable threat assuming their pricepoint remains unchanged (or gets lowered).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The Russ Buff has been loooong overdue. This actually makes them a considerable threat assuming their pricepoint remains unchanged (or gets lowered).

The article says they got cheaper.

Edit: Man I'm having issues with dakka today. Ignore this.

ohehehehehehe

I just realized the potential of this for a gunline of leman russ punishers.

Booger ork wrote:
Remember lasguns are rapid fire weapons too so you can do this with your conscripts. Also, the leadership buff is very fluffy for mordians, not so sure about catachans, but well see

It takes 135 shots at bs 5+ to kill a basic chaos lord with lasguns. 270 to kill a tech priest dominus, 324 to kill a terminator lord.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but you need multiple units of conscripts in RF range for even fairly basic HQs.

How about a Mordian Malcador Defender on the +1 Overwatch CT in Close Order? Charge it... I dare you.

SilverAlien wrote:

Booger ork wrote:
Remember lasguns are rapid fire weapons too so you can do this with your conscripts. Also, the leadership buff is very fluffy for mordians, not so sure about catachans, but well see

It takes 135 shots at bs 5+ to kill a basic chaos lord with lasguns. 270 to kill a tech priest dominus, 324 to kill a terminator lord.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but you need multiple units of conscripts in RF range for even fairly basic HQs.

Only takes 2 plasma/Melta command squads to kill cawl though

Booger ork wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Booger ork wrote:
Remember lasguns are rapid fire weapons too so you can do this with your conscripts. Also, the leadership buff is very fluffy for mordians, not so sure about catachans, but well see

It takes 135 shots at bs 5+ to kill a basic chaos lord with lasguns. 270 to kill a tech priest dominus, 324 to kill a terminator lord.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but you need multiple units of conscripts in RF range for even fairly basic HQs.

Only takes 2 plasma/Melta command squads to kill cawl though

What would those units cost in the current state of affairs? It sounds like our characters are in jeopardy now, but first of all, I think that's how it should be, the only problem is if AM are the only ones with this kind of hard counter, especially if chaos/xenos get nothing like it, and second of all, if the price point of those two units is too high, it might just be a way too risky thing to bring, as you will HAVE to put them in tin cans (a use for chimeras? Why I never...) since if you don't get first turn, those poor bastards are gonna be a lot of points in the open.

Booger ork wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Booger ork wrote:
Remember lasguns are rapid fire weapons too so you can do this with your conscripts. Also, the leadership buff is very fluffy for mordians, not so sure about catachans, but well see

It takes 135 shots at bs 5+ to kill a basic chaos lord with lasguns. 270 to kill a tech priest dominus, 324 to kill a terminator lord.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but you need multiple units of conscripts in RF range for even fairly basic HQs.

Only takes 2 plasma/Melta command squads to kill cawl though

Melta can't target him, RF only. Plasma could do it, if you get all 8 in RF range. Which frankly already signals something went wrong, you can screen further back.

It's a usable tactic, but it's got easy counters and relies on spamming glass cannon units.

Man, I completely forgot about the RF part. That's a bit of a bummer, actually. Makes it a fairly useless order, except maybe against other guard players (comissars)

The only thing is getting plasma teams in range, but even at 24", it's still more efficient than sniper rifles, is multipurpose, and serves as a backup since you can theoretically have your entire army snipe as needed.

And with there being no AOE rules in 8th, Close Order Drill is exactly the sort of thing I was worried would appear.

Oh.
Oh.
Tank Commander Punisher is looking REALLY scary right now.
That thing deletes a squad of infantry outright per turn.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The only thing is getting plasma teams in range, but even at 24", it's still more efficient than sniper rifles, is multipurpose, and serves as a backup since you can theoretically have your entire army snipe as needed.

And with there being no AOE rules in 8th, Close Order Drill is exactly the sort of thing I was worried would appear.

Plasma teams are rapidfire?

And why does close order drill worry you? They could just as well have given the bonus without the requirement attached. Would that have made you less worried? And with the wording, as long as the unit is standing two and two, they can spread out as much as they want. Templates wouldn't have done much more against that anyway. The only real restriction is that mordians aren't going to want to have tanks out on solo missions.

 Purifier wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The only thing is getting plasma teams in range, but even at 24", it's still more efficient than sniper rifles, is multipurpose, and serves as a backup since you can theoretically have your entire army snipe as needed.

And with there being no AOE rules in 8th, Close Order Drill is exactly the sort of thing I was worried would appear.

Plasma teams are rapidfire?

Plasma guns are Rapid Fire 1, yes.

And with the wording, as long as the unit is standing two and two, they can spread out as much as they want.

I don't think that's on purpose though, so I'd expect a FAQ / Errata pretty soon - they had a similar wording on Aegis Defense Lines through most of 7th just to finally clarify that they meant an uninterrupted line of walls - I think that's what they were going for here, too. I mean Mordians aren't know for holding hands "kindergarden excursion"-style, they're known for forming tight ranks.

But if any IG player dislikes that playstyle, there's a really easy fix to that. Don't play Mordians.

Yeah unless conscripts are addressed the Overwatch on a 5+ worries me very much as it doubles their effectiveness in overwatch, with fall back this means chewing through them in combat just got a whole lot more painful.

I worry about the whole base-to-base rule. I predict a lot of slow playing thanks to that, and it won't be intentional.

I actually brought up the aegis rule and how they faqed that when I was talking to my friends about how they could fail this wording again. I understand the intent, I just find it ludicrous that they keep missing things like this. I understand they're pushing a lot of things at once right now, but these are some huge glaring things that are slipping through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

drbored wrote:
I worry about the whole base-to-base rule. I predict a lot of slow playing thanks to that, and it won't be intentional.

Actually, Mordian players could get movement bases with this kind of setup.

drbored wrote:
I worry about the whole base-to-base rule. I predict a lot of slow playing thanks to that, and it won't be intentional.

Don't really see this as much of an issue, it takes less time to keep models in base to base, than it does to spread them out to maximize board presence.

They did FAQ squad coherency and "as a single group" to prevent the buddy system.

It's more an annoyance with the general 8e mechanics. Given that AOEs and Tank Shock are gone, the defender allocates all casualties, and pile-in is optional, a lot of tools to "outmaneuver" such blobs are no longer fully present, leaving 'weight of dice' as the only realistic answer now, and that's not the sort of game I'm looking for. Imagine if Street Fighter II was Zangeif and Dan Hibiki alone, with Vega noobslaying Dan, but bouncing off the Russkie juggernaut.

Uhhh...grinding advance seems bonkers now.

And people had problems against AM before, lol.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Uhhh...grinding advance seems bonkers now.

And people had problems against AM before, lol.

Yes, I feel the same way but we havent seen the other codexes yet. The rest could go bonkers as well.

It leaves Marines in a bad place if it happens though

People had issues against AM.. But it certainly wasn't because of Leman Russes that's for sure.

Points into leman russes means considerably less conscripts. This is far from doomsday stuff going on. If you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for those that will be last to get their codex. The power-bump I see in my own admech just from getting a codex where the units and pointscosts are almost copy pasted from index is far from trivial. The stuff codex are getting makes index armies frail shadows.

Now if conscripts got the ability to innately fire twice with no point increase, then we'd have a problem.

Couple of questions:

How does Grinding Advance interact with the FW Leman Russ Conqueror? This Grinding Advance rule would supercede the one in the FW index, correct? Would the Conqueror Battle Cannon count as a Battle Cannon for this purpose?

How does Grinding Advance interact with Catachan's Brutal Strength (does this mean you can reroll the D6 both times the turret fires??)

Article mentions a point decrease for the Russ. Will the FW index get an errata for these new points?

Thanks

Probably no on all accounts until FW releases their own FAQ on the matter fixing it.

Kinda having the same issue with Contemptors and helbrutes with Chaos atm.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Now if conscripts got the ability to innately fire twice with no point increase, then we'd have a problem.

You mean, 4 times or 5 times? They can currently as mordians effectively fire 3 times per battle round (Order to double shooting + full BS overwatch)

Breng77 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Now if conscripts got the ability to innately fire twice with no point increase, then we'd have a problem.

You mean, 4 times or 5 times? They can currently as mordians effectively fire 3 times per battle round (Order to double shooting + full BS overwatch)

I originally meant that as a hyperbole because it would stack with all of this crap. But then I realized the Mordian one effectively did exactly that, except it took the regiment trait.

Booger ork wrote:
Greetings humble guardsmen,

Today saw the release of the mordian iron guard regimental tactics, as well as an update for the leman russ!
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/26/regiment-focus-mordian-sep26gw-homepage-post-2/
The commisariat has sent a survey to you, asking for your opinions in these developments. Response not optional.

I can see mordian leman russ, especially the punisher, being extremely powerful, with the ability to fire 40, yes 40! shots, and then hit on 5s in overwatch. Characters are going to have a very nasty time too.

My Gods.
"When the Russes Broke Free".

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
My Gods.
"When the Russes Broke Free".

Moment I read this a certain song came to my head.

YOU ARE FREE NOW!!!!

Given how dirt cheap Guard detachments are...

I don't think Guard players will be fielding single regiments. Expect to face armies that mix and match regiments up to whatever tournament detachment limit there is and exploit things like this "Sniper Rifles for EVERYONE!" stratagem or mobile Lemun Russes that double fire.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
My Gods.
"When the Russes Broke Free".

Moment I read this a certain song came to my head.

Totally intentional (but I preferred to do not go further on parody due to the tone of such song, out of respect).

 Arkaine wrote:
Given how dirt cheap Guard detachments are...

I don't think Guard players will be fielding single regiments. Expect to face armies that mix and match regiments up to whatever tournament detachment limit there is and exploit things like this "Sniper Rifles for EVERYONE!" stratagem or mobile Lemun Russes that double fire.

Isn't that true for ANY Codex army? I can easily group my marines into two or three detachments and pick the best CT for each detachment. It's something almost everyone gets in 8th, except for snowflake armies like Grey Knights. Might wanna start getting used to that.

It'll be way easier for armies with cheap detachments, obviously. I imagine Necrons will have a tough time justifying the mix and match considering how expensive all their stuff is.

Bloomin' heck.

Guard are starting to look like a force to contend with. Without conscript spam.

Liking the Catachan rules, fairly nasty.

 Thairne wrote:
Oh.
Oh.
Tank Commander Punisher is looking REALLY scary right now.
That thing deletes a squad of infantry outright per turn.

How bout Paskisher for 10 more points? 40 (that's FOURTY) BS2+ S5 shots. Wow. That's an average of 22 saves for T4 infantry, and that's just the Punisher cannon!

 crimsondave wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Oh.
Oh.
Tank Commander Punisher is looking REALLY scary right now.
That thing deletes a squad of infantry outright per turn.

How bout Paskisher for 10 more points? 40 (that's FOURTY) BS2+ S5 shots. Wow. That's an average of 22 saves for T4 infantry, and that's just the Punisher cannon!

If that math is right, bloody hell!

Pardon my language.

You can tack on three heavy bolters to that too for an extra 9 S5 shots too.

EDIT: I forgot if the hull can have a heavy bolter. It's either that or something else it can't have and I can't for the life of me remember it off the top of my head.

Breng77 wrote:
Yeah unless conscripts are addressed the Overwatch on a 5+ worries me very much as it doubles their effectiveness in overwatch, with fall back this means chewing through them in combat just got a whole lot more painful.

My guess is conscripts won't have access to the regimental doctrines.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Oh.
Oh.
Tank Commander Punisher is looking REALLY scary right now.
That thing deletes a squad of infantry outright per turn.

How bout Paskisher for 10 more points? 40 (that's FOURTY) BS2+ S5 shots. Wow. That's an average of 22 saves for T4 infantry, and that's just the Punisher cannon!

If that math is right, bloody hell!

Pardon my language.

I can visualize it now...

A full squad of Ork boys decide to sit in front of a Pask Punished.

BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT.

Ork boys get turned into fertilizer.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Yeah unless conscripts are addressed the Overwatch on a 5+ worries me very much as it doubles their effectiveness in overwatch, with fall back this means chewing through them in combat just got a whole lot more painful.

My guess is conscripts won't have access to the regimental doctrines.

I agree. It makes no sense based on what they said about the conscript nerf.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
You can tack on three heavy bolters to that too for an extra 9 S5 shots too.

EDIT: I forgot if the hull can have a heavy bolter. It's either that or something else it can't have and I can't for the life of me remember it off the top of my head.

That is just ridiculous.

Ave Imp Guard.

You can tack on three heavy bolters to that too for an extra 9 S5 shots too.

EDIT: I forgot if the hull can have a heavy bolter. It's either that or something else it can't have and I can't for the life of me remember it off the top of my head.

It can have a Heavy B, Lascannon, or Heavy Flamer on the hull. No Plasma on the hull.

 crimsondave wrote:
You can tack on three heavy bolters to that too for an extra 9 S5 shots too.

EDIT: I forgot if the hull can have a heavy bolter. It's either that or something else it can't have and I can't for the life of me remember it off the top of my head.

It can have a Heavy B, Lascannon, or Heavy Flamer on the hull. No Plasma on the hull.

Double shots only applies to the turret weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring heavy weapon penalties on leman russes is perfectly reasonable, and I hope baneblades get it too.

In all honesty, the double shots for the leman russ would be pretty reasonable for some turret mounted weapons. The battle cannon, for example, seems fair enough, it was often criticized for its lack of damage output.

But EVERYTHING damn sure didn't deserve double shots, and not for free, but for less.

And how is plasma sniper squads not flying rodent gak bonkers broken? For free no less, I could almost see it being a stratagem, but just an auto-passing order seems stupid OP.

What next, conscripts down to 1PPM and BS3+?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
You can tack on three heavy bolters to that too for an extra 9 S5 shots too.

EDIT: I forgot if the hull can have a heavy bolter. It's either that or something else it can't have and I can't for the life of me remember it off the top of my head.

It can have a Heavy B, Lascannon, or Heavy Flamer on the hull. No Plasma on the hull.

Double shots only applies to the turret weapon.

I know, but it's still 9 more S5 -1 AP shots in addition to the 40 S5 PC shots.

Honestly, this turns out to be Guard fething you hard based on list.

Suspect tanks? Bring loads of AT, because otherwise you DED.
Wait, he brought infantry instead of tanks? You DED.
Expect infantry and he brought tanks? DED.
Take something of everything to be prepared? DED in both cases.

I'm scared.

 Arkaine wrote:
Given how dirt cheap Guard detachments are...

I don't think Guard players will be fielding single regiments. Expect to face armies that mix and match regiments up to whatever tournament detachment limit there is and exploit things like this "Sniper Rifles for EVERYONE!" stratagem or mobile Lemun Russes that double fire.

Seen tons of Space Marine and Chaos players doing this so I wouldn't be surprised.

All I know is I am gonna replace the 10 battle cannons on my 4th edition russes with punishers.

All the dakka all the time.

So...

Bringing multiple regiments to a single game is super fluffy and awesome. It's how the Imperial Guard form battlegroups.

I love that these work the way they do.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
They did FAQ squad coherency and "as a single group" to prevent the buddy system.

It's more an annoyance with the general 8e mechanics. Given that AOEs and Tank Shock are gone, the defender allocates all casualties, and pile-in is optional, a lot of tools to "outmaneuver" such blobs are no longer fully present, leaving 'weight of dice' as the only realistic answer now, and that's not the sort of game I'm looking for. Imagine if Street Fighter II was Zangeif and Dan Hibiki alone, with Vega noobslaying Dan, but bouncing off the Russkie juggernaut.

This has been my main problem with 8th edition mechanics. Everything is about weight of dice more than anything else. That, and most strategies revolving around plasma is kinda boring.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
You can tack on three heavy bolters to that too for an extra 9 S5 shots too.

EDIT: I forgot if the hull can have a heavy bolter. It's either that or something else it can't have and I can't for the life of me remember it off the top of my head.

It can have a Heavy B, Lascannon, or Heavy Flamer on the hull. No Plasma on the hull.

Double shots only applies to the turret weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring heavy weapon penalties on leman russes is perfectly reasonable, and I hope baneblades get it too.

In all honesty, the double shots for the leman russ would be pretty reasonable for some turret mounted weapons. The battle cannon, for example, seems fair enough, it was often criticized for its lack of damage output.

But EVERYTHING damn sure didn't deserve double shots, and not for free, but for less.

And how is plasma sniper squads not flying rodent gak bonkers broken? For free no less, I could almost see it being a stratagem, but just an auto-passing order seems stupid OP.

What next, conscripts down to 1PPM and BS3+?

There is a fair chance we'll see some point increases and splitting of weapon costs between units with varied BS values or abilities like in other books.

Wow, what a colossal pimp slap to assault armies. It's not as if we were doing amazing up to this point, and now in comes Mordians with basically a second shooting phase in my assault phase. And on top of that getting an order to snipe characters, and we're taking about game where you're just watching your orks or nids fall apart before they even get to the front line and then slapping ineffectually slap against a wall like butter. And hey, we got proof that conscripts do get the buffs from doctrines, so you if want str 4 attacks for half the cost of ork boyz or hitting in overwatch better than than they can in their own shooting phase you can! Hell, maybe we'll find out tomorrow that vostroyan conscripts get 4+ armor saves! Who gives a gak if they can't take orders, as long as they're effected by commissar they're still a unbreakable wall that'll laugh at any assault unit that isn't Khorne Berzerkers

The buff to Leman Russes is absurd. Double your shots for moving half speed in an army that doesn't need to move to win games, and even if you do move? no penalties. Vanquishers getting two shots basically ignore their main draw back, punishers will turn ork boyz into mulch,extermimators will basicly be putting out more hits than loota boyz. AND ALL WITH A POINTS DECREASE. Hell, we don't know what Cadians are getting, they might just get reoll 1s on everythings and pask will basicly be a tank driving god.

What's the heck is even playing this game if I'm just going to get ground into the dirt by the most boring army in the game

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Wow, what a colossal pimp slap to assault armies. It's not as if we were doing amazing up to this point, and now in comes Mordians with basically a second shooting phase in my assault phase. And on top of that getting an order to snipe characters, and we're taking about game where you're just watching your orks or nids fall apart before they even get to the front line and then slapping ineffectually slap against a wall like butter. And hey, we got proof that conscripts do get the buffs from doctrines, so you if want str 4 attacks for half the cost of ork boyz or hitting in overwatch better than than they can in their own shooting phase you can! Hell, maybe we'll find out tomorrow that vostroyan conscripts get 4+ armor saves! Who gives a gak if they can't take orders, as long as they're effected by commissar they're still a unbreakable wall that'll laugh at any assault unit that isn't Khorne Berzerkers

The buff to Leman Russes is absurd. Double your shots for moving half speed in an army that doesn't need to move to win games, and even if you do move? no penalties. Vanquishers getting two shots basically ignore their main draw back, punishers will turn ork boyz into mulch,extermimators will basicly be putting out more hits than loota boyz. AND ALL WITH A POINTS DECREASE. Hell, we don't know what Cadians are getting, they might just get reoll 1s on everythings and pask will basicly be a tank driving god.

What's the heck is even playing this game if I'm just going to get ground into the dirt by the most boring army in the game

Calm down. You don't have your dex yet. Leman Russes were not the problem in the index. In fact, they stunk. The turret weapons needed a buff, badly. The only LR I would be concerned about is the Punisher. If it's OP, it will get nerfed. GW seems to being paying attention.

Where is the proof conscripts get buffs from doctrines? I'm asking, not arguing. I haven't seen that anywhere. If they do it's really stupid. I thought the fluff behind the nerf was going to be conscripts are too undisciplined to take orders (most likely) and may take more damage from commissars if they even benefit from them. If they are too undisciplined for that, why would they disciplined enough to benefit from doctrines?

Parade Drill adds some much-needed insurance to your units against getting charged, rewarding you for careful positioning of your army. From humble Conscripts to even the Baneblade, there are few units that don’t benefit from this rule.

The implication being that both Conscripts and SHVs benefit from regiment rules.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Parade Drill adds some much-needed insurance to your units against getting charged, rewarding you for careful positioning of your army. From humble Conscripts to even the Baneblade, there are few units that don’t benefit from this rule.

The implication being that both Conscripts and SHVs benefit from regiment rules.

Well, that's pretty stupid. Why would you buff a unit you already said you were nerfing? I don't get it.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Seen tons of Space Marine and Chaos players doing this so I wouldn't be surprised.

nekooni wrote:
Isn't that true for ANY Codex army? I can easily group my marines into two or three detachments and pick the best CT for each detachment. It's something almost everyone gets in 8th, except for snowflake armies like Grey Knights. Might wanna start getting used to that.

Difference here guys is that this edition is built on CP. Fielding multiple battalions or a brigade is all but impossible for a marine player. To abuse legions, you're going to have to suffer on the CP front and reduce access to fabulous rerolls and stratagems. But for a guard player, whose detachments can be dirt cheap, I've seen them run 12-18 CP lists with ease before their codex even dropped.

So not only will Guard will getting all these fabulous legion traits and strats but they'll actually be able to spam them too.

 crimsondave wrote:


Calm down. You don't have your dex yet. Leman Russes were not the problem in the index. In fact, they stunk. The turret weapons needed a buff, badly. The only LR I would be concerned about is the Punisher. If it's OP, it will get nerfed. GW seems to being paying attention.

Agree. Also, I can imagine they made the Punisher Heavy 10 or maybe 12-15.

 Arkaine wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Seen tons of Space Marine and Chaos players doing this so I wouldn't be surprised.

nekooni wrote:
Isn't that true for ANY Codex army? I can easily group my marines into two or three detachments and pick the best CT for each detachment. It's something almost everyone gets in 8th, except for snowflake armies like Grey Knights. Might wanna start getting used to that.

Difference here guys is that this edition is built on CP. Fielding multiple battalions or a brigade is all but impossible for a marine player. To abuse legions, you're going to have to suffer on the CP front and reduce access to fabulous rerolls and stratagems. But for a guard player, whose detachments can be dirt cheap, I've seen them run 12-18 CP lists with ease before their codex even dropped.

So not only will Guard will getting all these fabulous legion traits and strats but they'll actually be able to spam them too.

People keep missing that last bit. I struggle to do pure Marines and get maybe 8 command points. Guard can do an EASY brigade and get tons of points to spare.

Chaos can field a playable 600 pt. brigade using Renegades & Heretics.
Imperials can field a 700 pt. guard brigade.

Yes, guard can field a ton of CP, but that is one of the primary benefits of fielding them.

Can't wait for all the people that hated on Counts As Marines switching CT having no qualms tailoring their Cadians counts as every game


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Codex creep is definitely back. The solution to that brand new army that's twice as resilient? Let's give them an army with twice as much firepower.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Can't wait for all the people that hated on Counts As Marines switching CT having no qualms tailoring their Cadians counts as every game


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Codex creep is definitely back. The solution to that brand new army that's twice as resilient? Let's give them an army with twice as much firepower.

I am a big critic of GW and I have no faith in their design team but Punisher excluded, the Russ rule means useable Russes.
That's it.
Do the math and you will se on average is not that much.

And even for the Punisher, it just makes it a little more cost effective than 2 Taurox Primes.

The biggest problem I see is simply factions that have a codex vs. not (as usual).

 perilsensitive wrote:
And even for the Punisher, it just makes it a little more cost effective than 2 Taurox Primes.

The biggest problem I see is simply factions that have a codex vs. not (as usual).

Genuine question - should we be more worried for factions that had a codex but still is meh?
8th looks better than 6th so far - I remember the trauma CSM - DA - Tau

I just saw the update, and all I could say was "Oh sweet Lord!" I don't think Mordians in particular are too powerful (but they are good), but double-firing Leman Russes? Holy crap! Not that they didn't need a buff, but according to the article they also got a price drop. 40k is going to become World of Tanks, and the funny thing is that I'm actually okay with that to a degree since I like tanks (although I don't play Guard, err, Astra Militarum).

 perilsensitive wrote:
And even for the Punisher, it just makes it a little more cost effective than 2 Taurox Primes.

The biggest problem I see is simply factions that have a codex vs. not (as usual).

Chapter Approved is coming and is supposed to alleviate some of that codex vs not codex crap. Nifty toys will be given to the people still waiting for their books and point rebalances for OP stuff in existing codex will arrive too.

People that don't understand balance, and think that because Guard have OP units like commisar+conscript combo, Scions Spam, Taurox Primes, etc... ALL of their units are OP, so is bad that they buff the worst ones like Leman Russes...

I'll wait for the Codex before fliping the table and posting rants online. I want to see how they nerf Tempestus Scions (And I ran a mixed imperial inquisitorial force with a core of Tempestus), Conscripts, etc... but I want too, to see how they buff sentinels, Leman Russes, etc...

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just saw the update, and all I could say was "Oh sweet Lord!" I don't think Mordians in particular are too powerful (but they are good), but double-firing Leman Russes? Holy crap! Not that they didn't need a buff, but according to the article they also got a price drop. 40k is going to become World of Tanks, and the funny thing is that I'm actually okay with that to a degree since I like tanks (although I don't play Guard, err, Astra Militarum).

Considering various mediocre units in other codexes got buffs and/or price drops (off the top of my head, Terminators, Obliterators, Possessed, Warpsmith) and didn't upset the meta too much, I don't think the buff to the russ is anything to worry about. Plus before they were either stationary turrets or firing at BS5, this is a welcomed change. The only outlier is the Punisher, who was already "decent" in the index but now is pretty awesome. The Battle Cannon, on the other hand, should have always been essentially 2D6 shots instead of just D6.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just saw the update, and all I could say was "Oh sweet Lord!" I don't think Mordians in particular are too powerful (but they are good), but double-firing Leman Russes? Holy crap! Not that they didn't need a buff, but according to the article they also got a price drop. 40k is going to become World of Tanks, and the funny thing is that I'm actually okay with that to a degree since I like tanks (although I don't play Guard, err, Astra Militarum).

Considering various mediocre units in other codexes got buffs and/or price drops (off the top of my head, Terminators, Obliterators, Possessed, Warpsmith) and didn't upset the meta too much, I don't think the buff to the russ is anything to worry about. Plus before they were either stationary turrets or firing at BS5, this is a welcomed change. The only outlier is the Punisher, who was already "decent" in the index but now is pretty awesome. The Battle Cannon, on the other hand, should have always been essentially 2D6 shots instead of just D6.

Even with the buff your standard Punisher is only causing ~4.35 wounds to MEQ (w/the Punisher alone). Paskquisher ups that to ~7.2. Actually makes LRBTs and its variants interesting/viable to take, up from the current meta where they're not considered a competitive choice at all. Single lascannon shot still has pretty decent chance to cripple a Leman Russ, too - so as attractive as they've become they're relatively easier to handle over Infantry-based gunline IG. Punisher only has a 29" threat radius too, provided they don't change ranges/move values, to maintain the double-shot part of grinding advance.

I recognize that Leman Russes are not good as of currently, but at the same time I can see it's possible that with such a large buff combined with a price drop can make them powerful even if not the most powerful option in the game. Even if they're still weaker than conscripts, an army is not entirely composed of a single unit type, and if Leman Russ replaces what's previously used to support conscripts it's make an overall powerful list in an army that's already doing well.

Certainly I'm not happy that it's going to be next year before orks get their codex, so I'm going to have to deal with this for some time...

I like that they are doing something to make Russes better.

Mordian rules look interesting but I guess I won't be playing them because I don't feel like investing to metal minis or third party plastics.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I recognize that Leman Russes are not good as of currently, but at the same time I can see it's possible that with such a large buff combined with a price drop can make them powerful even if not the most powerful option in the game. Even if they're still weaker than conscripts, an army is not entirely composed of a single unit type, and if Leman Russ replaces what's previously used to support conscripts it's make an overall powerful list in an army that's already doing well.

Certainly I'm not happy that it's going to be next year before orks get their codex, so I'm going to have to deal with this for some time...

Chapter approved will probably help you some but I doubt it can make up for not having a codex. They really should have released all of the popular codex at once.

In a way I do kind of have mixed feelings about how good the previews are looking.

Obviously, I like having an army that isn't a joke and that people actually have to think about when building a list. It's pretty great knowing opponents have to think "Hmm, but what if I face Guard?" instead of "lol Guard, I'll roll over them no matter what I take".

And if GW is making us FOTM on purpose, that suggests that they might have some new models in the pipe and they're juicing our rules so that they'll sell. So you know, yay new models.

I just hope the backlash isn't too severe and that they don't proceed to nerf us into the ground once they've met their sales goals. Of course, I'm sure the vocal group that seems to think Guard is *supposed* to just be a punching bag for their betters to roll over will go ballistic anyway.

That's the other thing. With Chapter Approved being a thing again, even if there are imbalances they might be corrected pretty swiftly (like the flyer thing).

Any Tyranid Player will remember the dark years of the 5th and 6th edition codexes, where we had basically one decent build that ticked off everyone while the rest of the codex was basically garbage, with almost no salvation in sight.

 crimsondave wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Parade Drill adds some much-needed insurance to your units against getting charged, rewarding you for careful positioning of your army. From humble Conscripts to even the Baneblade, there are few units that don’t benefit from this rule.

The implication being that both Conscripts and SHVs benefit from regiment rules.

Well, that's pretty stupid. Why would you buff a unit you already said you were nerfing? I don't get it.

Because their objective is balance, not see-saw buff/nerfing units forever.

"Compensation buffs" are a normal thing in game balancing. It's the mark of good balancing, actually. I don't know exactly what the nerfs to conscripts look like but if word on the street is correct they're close to being pretty bad after the codex rules become de facto.

The SKY is FALLING!!! Argh!!

 Hollow wrote:
The SKY is FALLING!!! Argh!!

Because it got shot up by all of the Punishers?

*lamejoke*

"Shatter their sky!"- Basilisk Crew, Dawn of War 1

Hmm may just be me but I'm liking the Catachan trait much more out of the two revealed so far. Being able to reroll a D6 when firing is essentially a free CP each time.

Both are decent, but I feel like Catachan will help more frequently.

Can't wait to see the Vostroyan trait, from the teaser at the end it may be 18" rapid fire instead of 12" to give them a bit more threat range - represents their ornate gear nicely.

I like the tank rule.

Assuming they don't get more expensive, I think they might actually be viable again.

I still don't think they'll be great, unless Manticores get a price hike or they become close to Manticores in cost.

If we compare Leman Russ to artillery options on a point-for-point efficiency level, Manticores are still better than double-firing Russes. Double-firing Punishers may outshine Wyverns point-for-point, we'll have to see what their final cost is. Double-firing Punishers definitely don't outdo Mortar Teams.


The Catachan re-roll looks like, at least for now, to be the best regimental doctrine. The Mordian one is funny, but not really all that, since it's not going to actually gun down the attacker, just mildly peeve them. While we've only seen two doctrines, I think it's going to be difficult to compete with re-rolls for shot count on Manticores.


Interestingly enough, it looks like the Catachan re-roll will make Basilisks entirely obsolete, if they needed their inferiority to the Manticore further driven in.


As an addendum, Stormtroopers won't benefit from Regimental Doctrines and other abilities, which I think renders the Mordian special order kind of moot. While sniper-conscripts sounds funny, the only thing that can really make good use of that order are Stormtrooper Command Squads, who won't be able to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hahaha..... Chenkov is coming back, at least in spirit!

This should be good. I'd guess it's going to be the Valhallan unique strategem. The ability to recycle conscripts, even if they're nerfed, might, just might, prove superior to re-rolling one of each Manticore's dice for some specific lists.


More to the point on the Vostroyans themselves, I'm not impressed. It might pair well with Punisher Cannons, to keep those tanks stationary, but otherwise, I can't see a whole lot of point. It's going to trigger for infantry maybe once per game [on turn 1, if the enemy is footslogging its way to you, in which case you get rapid-fire when you otherwise wouldn't], but rarely even at that because it only actually happens against a single specific and mostly-bad strategy, and its not that good of a benefit even when it happens.

So, are the Vostoyans then able to fire *while* in melee? That is crazy strong if so (charging conscripts or really any troop is even worse if they can). It makes heavy weapon squads far more dangerous if they can survive a charge or consolidation.

Tomorrow:
"we’ll be looking at the Valhallans, the highly anticipated changes to conscripts, and the return of a classic and much-loved rule…"

valdier wrote:
So, are the Vostoyans then able to fire *while* in melee? That is crazy strong if so (charging conscripts or really any troop is even worse if they can). It makes heavy weapon squads far more dangerous if they can survive a charge or consolidation.

Yes, that's the wording of the order. Ignore the weapons type and it can be fired regardless if there is an enemy within 1" (although the restriction is that the closest enemy within an 1" must be the target)

I really hope they bring back some sort of roll for the orders. Never was too fond of them 'just going off' - really liked the narrative behind some orders being misheard over the vox or a total shutdown across the army when chaos hits. Make them like psychic powers, you need to roll a 3+ on a D6 for basic orders and maybe more 'complicated' orders make it a 4+ or 5+ (certain officers/characters have a bonus to this roll)

 NurglesR0T wrote:

valdier wrote:
So, are the Vostoyans then able to fire *while* in melee? That is crazy strong if so (charging conscripts or really any troop is even worse if they can). It makes heavy weapon squads far more dangerous if they can survive a charge or consolidation.

Yes, that's the wording of the order. Ignore the weapons type and it can be fired regardless if there is an enemy within 1" (although the restriction is that the closest enemy within an 1" must be the target)

I really hope they bring back some sort of roll for the orders. Never was too fond of them 'just going off' - really liked the narrative behind some orders being misheard over the vox or a total shutdown across the army when chaos hits. Make them like psychic powers, you need to roll a 3+ on a D6 for basic orders and maybe more 'complicated' orders make it a 4+ or 5+ (certain officers/characters have a bonus to this roll)

Orders just going off would've been fine last edition where the Lasgun couldn't potentially wound everything, infantry was not close to durable without cover, and they were the same cost. Instead, all these buffs happened at once.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

valdier wrote:
So, are the Vostoyans then able to fire *while* in melee? That is crazy strong if so (charging conscripts or really any troop is even worse if they can). It makes heavy weapon squads far more dangerous if they can survive a charge or consolidation.

Yes, that's the wording of the order. Ignore the weapons type and it can be fired regardless if there is an enemy within 1" (although the restriction is that the closest enemy within an 1" must be the target)

I really hope they bring back some sort of roll for the orders. Never was too fond of them 'just going off' - really liked the narrative behind some orders being misheard over the vox or a total shutdown across the army when chaos hits. Make them like psychic powers, you need to roll a 3+ on a D6 for basic orders and maybe more 'complicated' orders make it a 4+ or 5+ (certain officers/characters have a bonus to this roll)

Sure. And everyone else's aura abilities can work on a roll too. Gulliman? Roll. Morty? Roll.

Guard aura abilities are their orders. Nobody else has to put up with this.

 argonak wrote:
Sure. And everyone else's aura abilities can work on a roll too. Gulliman? Roll. Morty? Roll.

Guard aura abilities are their orders. Nobody else has to put up with this.

Apples to oranges, guard have 30 point characters that can use 7+ different abilities depending the situation. That's not really the same as anything else you describe. You can argue it's not balanced, but it already departs in function so heavily from other aura abilities that the "other armies don't do it" justification falls a bit flat.

Well having faced a tank heavy guard list a few weeks back they needed this buff because the index versions were pathetic.

SilverAlien wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Sure. And everyone else's aura abilities can work on a roll too. Gulliman? Roll. Morty? Roll.

Guard aura abilities are their orders. Nobody else has to put up with this.

Apples to oranges, guard have 30 point characters that can use 7+ different abilities depending the situation. That's not really the same as anything else you describe. You can argue it's not balanced, but it already departs in function so heavily from other aura abilities that the "other armies don't do it" justification falls a bit flat.

Commisars don't roll for their ability as far as I know either.

But yeah, compare a 30 point character to the cheapest character that certain armies have available and you'll see the disparaging balance level.

Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

Your Aura affects multiple units and does not prevent them from getting other Auras.

When a unit is affected by an Order, they cannot be affected by another Order. It doesn't matter if there are 3 characters granting Orders--each unit can only be targeted by one Order.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

I'm pretty sure the reason a commander is 30 points is because he's a dude in a T-shirt armed with a laspistol and a big pair of lungs. Why should IG pay power armor prices when they don't have power armor?

What next, 6 point conscripts, 8 point guardsmen, and 12 point veterans? Because you know if space marines have to pay 12 points for BS3+ then guard should too, never mind the differences in S, T, WS, Sv, Ld, primary weapon, or the extra krak grenade and bolt pistol.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

Your Aura affects multiple units and does not prevent them from getting other Auras.

When a unit is affected by an Order, they cannot be affected by another Order. It doesn't matter if there are 3 characters granting Orders--each unit can only be targeted by one Order.

Orders are also stratagem-level. Re-rolling 1s isn't. Plus voxcasters.

Guard - Has order to shoot twice. Costs nothing from their 30 CP. Usable on multiple squads.
C.Marine - Has stratagem to shoot twice. Costs 2 CP from their 6 CP. Usable once per turn.

Two of our orders are literally re-rolling 1s. The rest are either movement, or only apply to S3 AP0 weapons (lasguns and bayonets).

If 8th wasn't saturated with auras and Order knockoffs like Canticles and Acts of Faith, you might have had a point. But as it is now we basically hand out the same buffs as everyone else, except ours are single-target and can't stack while theirs are AoE and stackable.

That, on top of the character handing them out being a flimsy, harmless order-on-a-stick, is already enough to justify costing less than 60 points.

First Rank, fire! Second Rank, fire! - Fire twice... Slaanesh gets it as a strat for 2 CP
Fix Bayonets! - Attack twice... Khorne gets it as a strat for 3 CP
Move! Move! Move! - Warptime, a psyker power, as an order
Get back in the fight! - Stratagem-level bullcrap
Forwards, for the Emperor! - Legion Trait for Black Legion and some others applicable to any Guard legion


No sympathy.

Plus all of these are free and may be done to multiple squads every turn, limited only by number of officers. Not by the CP that guard have oodles of as a result of brigades being too cheap.

 Arkaine wrote:
First Rank, fire! Second Rank, fire! - Fire twice... Slaanesh gets it as a strat for 2 CP
Fix Bayonets! - Attack twice... Khorne gets it as a strat for 3 CP
Move! Move! Move! - Warptime, a psyker power, as an order
Get back in the fight! - Stratagem-level bullcrap
Forwards, for the Emperor! - Legion Trait for Black Legion and some others applicable to any Guard legion


No sympathy.

Going point by point:

1) With only lasguns (you forgot that part)
2) In the Shooting Phase (you forgot that part)
3) Prevents shooting or assaulting afterwards (you forgot that part)
4) Normal army-wide special rule (Ultramarines, or White Scars for charging (the IG can't charge after))
5) Army wide special rule (as you rightly mention...)

Pretty sure getting an army-wide special rule just for having the right color paint on your models is waaaaaaay more points efficient than paying 30 points to grant the same rule to one unit for one turn.

Also, oh no, they can attack twice with a Rapid 1 S3 AP0 weapon, or a 1A S3 AP0 melee profile! Tremble and despair!

Come on, FRFSRF is our strongest order sure, but it's basically just to compensate for the lasgun.

So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

Are you willing to trade your captain abilities and relics?

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

If they're equivalent out of rapid fire range how would they get better inside?

Bolters and lasguns both double their shots at 12". If they were the same, then you double both... they're still the same.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

Are you willing to trade your captain abilities and relics?

Seeing as I'm not using a Captain at all sure. I get everything I need from Lts, Librarians, and Chaplains. If I need the reroll to hit I can use a named character.

Yeah take the Captain I don't care.

ross-128 wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

If they're equivalent out of rapid fire range how would they get better inside?

Bolters and lasguns both double their shots at 12". If they were the same, then you double both... they're still the same.

Variance.
10 shots are statistically less reliable than the 30 the guardsmen put out.
10 bolter shots are 1,481 wounds, 0,741 for 5.
30 Lasguns are 1,667 wounds, 0,8333 for 15.

The discrepancy also grows from 0,09 wounds to 0,18 wounds.
So the more shots there are, the more reliably the guardsmen will not only be, but they will gain wounds at an increased rate.

ChargerIIC wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

Are you willing to trade your captain abilities and relics?

DA do not have relics yet. Neither do we have a Captain, but a Company Master - which rerolls only 1's to hit within 6", compared to the orders at 12" which add options to guard at way way cheaper a cost.

 Thairne wrote:

ross-128 wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

If they're equivalent out of rapid fire range how would they get better inside?

Bolters and lasguns both double their shots at 12". If they were the same, then you double both... they're still the same.

Variance.
10 shots are statistically less reliable than the 30 the guardsmen put out.
10 bolter shots are 1,481 wounds, 0,741 for 5.
30 Lasguns are 1,667 wounds, 0,8333 for 15.

The discrepancy also grows from 0,09 wounds to 0,18 wounds.
So the more shots there are, the more reliably the guardsmen will not only be, but they will gain wounds at an increased rate.

ChargerIIC wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

Are you willing to trade your captain abilities and relics?

DA do not have relics yet. Neither do we have a Captain, but a Company Master - which rerolls only 1's to hit within 6", compared to the orders at 12" which add options to guard at way way cheaper a cost.

So you're saying that horde models should always be strictly worse point-for-point, because they can make up for it by being *reliably* worse?

I suppose I can see why that would be an appealing argument to someone who plays elite models. Mainly because it gives them a way to rationalize why they deserve to be overpowered, but I hope you can also understand why it's not so appealing to a horde player who is being told he deserves to be underpowered just because he can be consistently underpowered.

Do you have any idea on what reliablity is?
Reliability is why single shot weapons like meltas without rerolls are terrible.
More dice -> more constitent results all the while having more total wounds at which a single bad roll on your save does not cost you a gakload of points.

Reliablity is king in weight of dice.

Also I'm not saying what you suppose I do.
Guard are more effective per point against MEQ.
They also have more dice and are less reliant on good rolls.
Guard are not underpowered, they are stronger than marines.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

Your Aura affects multiple units and does not prevent them from getting other Auras.

When a unit is affected by an Order, they cannot be affected by another Order. It doesn't matter if there are 3 characters granting Orders--each unit can only be targeted by one Order.

Orders are also stratagem-level. Re-rolling 1s isn't. Plus voxcasters.

Vox-Casters are on a limited number of units. Infantry Squads, Command Squads, Veterans, Scions. The benefit only applies to those units and Officers issuing Orders to them.

Guard - Has order to shoot twice. Costs nothing from their 30 CP. Usable on multiple squads.
C.Marine - Has stratagem to shoot twice. Costs 2 CP from their 6 CP. Usable once per turn.

Orders require you to be within a certain range of the issuing Officer, Stratagems don't.

 Thairne wrote:
Do you have any idea on what reliablity is?
Reliability is why single shot weapons like meltas without rerolls are terrible.
More dice -> more constitent results all the while having more total wounds at which a single bad roll on your save does not cost you a gakload of points.

Reliablity is king in weight of dice.

Also I'm not saying what you suppose I do.
Guard are more effective per point against MEQ.
They also have more dice and are less reliant on good rolls.
Guard are not underpowered, they are stronger than marines.

They're not underpowered right now, but you are talking like them not being underpowered is a bad thing. It sounds like you're saying that they need to be made underpowered.

Thing is, a swingy weapon or unit can roll both below and above average. It may be hard for a consistent model to roll below average, but it's also hard for it to roll above. So why should the consistent model be given a lower average?

When they're equal (or close enough), it can go either way. The guardsmen will probably mostly roll about average, but if the space marine rolls well on his turn he wins, if he rolls poorly he loses, if he rolls about average it's a draw. It's up to the player to create a situation that tilts the fight in their favor.

If you "fix" the guardsmen by making them strictly worse, offering the fig leaf of "but you're reliably bad so being bad is okay", then the default outcome will be that the space marine wins automatically. If he rolls average he wins, if he rolls well he wins, if he rolls poorly it's a draw unless he rolls badly enough to cover the gap.

Again, I understand why that "fix" would be appealing to the space marine player and why he would offer the defense of "but I can get screwed by a bad roll", but I really do hope you can see why it's not appealing to a guard player. Besides "nobody wants to get nerfed", nobody wants to go into a fight where the default assumption is they lose, and they have to pray that their opponent rolls badly.

And that's before even looking at the question of if the Guard couldn't match marines in shooting, what are they supposed to do, engage the marines in melee? They may have better chances in melee than the Tau, but that's not saying much. I would hope the shooty army has an edge in shooting, they wouldn't be much without it!

Meanwhile on the Marines' side, they actually are pretty strong in melee. Perhaps they should get in there and punch the shooty army, instead of complaining that they're hard to out-shoot.

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

*faint necron whimpering in the distance*

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

*faint necron whimpering in the distance*

I was gonna point that out. Thanks for doing it instead though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Do you have any idea on what reliablity is?
Reliability is why single shot weapons like meltas without rerolls are terrible.
More dice -> more constitent results all the while having more total wounds at which a single bad roll on your save does not cost you a gakload of points.

Reliablity is king in weight of dice.

Also I'm not saying what you suppose I do.
Guard are more effective per point against MEQ.
They also have more dice and are less reliant on good rolls.
Guard are not underpowered, they are stronger than marines.

They're not underpowered right now, but you are talking like them not being underpowered is a bad thing. It sounds like you're saying that they need to be made underpowered.

Thing is, a swingy weapon or unit can roll both below and above average. It may be hard for a consistent model to roll below average, but it's also hard for it to roll above. So why should the consistent model be given a lower average?

When they're equal (or close enough), it can go either way. The guardsmen will probably mostly roll about average, but if the space marine rolls well on his turn he wins, if he rolls poorly he loses, if he rolls about average it's a draw. It's up to the player to create a situation that tilts the fight in their favor.

If you "fix" the guardsmen by making them strictly worse, offering the fig leaf of "but you're reliably bad so being bad is okay", then the default outcome will be that the space marine wins automatically. If he rolls average he wins, if he rolls well he wins, if he rolls poorly it's a draw unless he rolls badly enough to cover the gap.

Again, I understand why that "fix" would be appealing to the space marine player and why he would offer the defense of "but I can get screwed by a bad roll", but I really do hope you can see why it's not appealing to a guard player. Besides "nobody wants to get nerfed", nobody wants to go into a fight where the default assumption is they lose, and they have to pray that their opponent rolls badly.

And that's before even looking at the question of if the Guard couldn't match marines in shooting, what are they supposed to do, engage the marines in melee? They may have better chances in melee than the Tau, but that's not saying much. I would hope the shooty army has an edge in shooting, they wouldn't be much without it!

Meanwhile on the Marines' side, they actually are pretty strong in melee. Perhaps they should get in there and punch the shooty army, instead of complaining that they're hard to out-shoot.

Actually I'm telling what's up as a Skitarii and Necrons player too. Wanna tell me I'm just overreacting too?

 ross-128 wrote:

They're not underpowered right now, but you are talking like them not being underpowered is a bad thing. It sounds like you're saying that they need to be made underpowered.
.

That is not what I said, neither is that what I want to imply.
What I was going on about is that guard actually are more shooty than marines WITHOUT the addition of cheap and auto-resolve orders.
Add Orders and you suddenly have Guardsmen that are broken for their cost.
They need not be underpowered, but currently they punch FAR above their weight.

Orders are too cheap, too easy to get, too reliable.
Orders are the problem.

Yes, marines are better in melee, but by about 1 wound better. I'm also some orders that, dunno, let the guard fall back and shoot again.
Yet marines have several more weaknesses like AP actually hurts whereas Guard gets their weaknesses plugged via Commissars and now that Ogryn Bodyguard.