Well, guys, it looks like all the complaining people have done to GW paid off for them:
Matched Play: If you are playing a matched play game, a unit from your army cannot make a Soulburst action if a friendly unit has already made the same Soulburst action during your turn. In addition, units from your army cannot perform any Soulburst actions during your opponent’s turn.
So we're capped to 1 soulburst shot on our turn, 1 charge, etc. and only our turn (unless I'm misreading it and it means just per death/Soulburst?). Comparing it to the faction powers of all of the other factions, I think we're gonna see a noted decline in Ynnari tournament play.
It really isn't that bad. You get one round of free shooting if you kill an enemy unit nearby, or you get to assault, fight, etc. It stops a silly cascade of continued actions through successful unit wipeouts. Definitely a big nerf, but still not entirely useless, especially when combined with some of the weapons Eldar get! Not to mention that you have access to Craftworld strategems too. I'm a Ynnari player and I endorse this announcement!
Playing Eldar and not being called cheesy is a good thing, gets really boring to hear same old crap from people.
bullyboy wrote: Playing Eldar and not being called cheesy is a good thing, gets really boring to hear same old crap from people.
I think that's the problem. The rule isn't that bad - hell, and it's easily one of the most flavorful - and not nearly as powerful as people melodramatically complain, but it feels bad to play against and people don't like it. It's more a PR move than a balance one.
Its not like ynari are winning every tournament, while there at it nerf imperial/chaos soup/guillman/celestine but im guessing that wont happen. Seems like such an overnerf to something that wasnt really needed, maybe add 2/3+ to activate instead.
pilchard8 wrote: Its not like ynari are winning every tournament, while there at it nerf imperial/chaos soup/guillman/celestine but im guessing that wont happen. Seems like such an overnerf to something that wasnt really needed, maybe add 2/3+ to activate instead.
You mean like how overnerfing Commissars did nothing to Conscripts?
I want to be sympathetic, but really it's for Matched Play. Did you think you'd be able to continually spam the same Soulburst power time and time again when Psykers can't use the same Powers and other similar things(Canticles, Orders, etc) are either set to 1 per turn or 1 per unit?
I mean, you can call it severe, but at the same time, it's also severe fielding multiple squads of reapers or wraithlords and soulburst chaining for double the shots in 1 turn.
Each unit firing twice is strictly superior to the buff Guilliman provides, for reference. Is a 0 point Guilliman balanced?
The sad thing is that this will do nothing to stop CWE/ Ynnari mixed list, which was the problem
And it will actually encourage Reaper Ynnari lists. If you can only do 1 shooting Soulburst, you may as well make sure it's a powerful one. So take 10 Ynnari Reapers and plant Yvraine next to them to cast Word of the Phoenix so they can shoot twice.
It does sadly kill Ynnari for me personally, as I was only adding a Ynnari Spearhead with 2 WG units and a Fire Dragon unit. If I can only do 1 shooting Soulburst per turn and can never Soulburst in the opponent's turn, than there is no point in having 3 extremely shoot ranged shooting units as Ynnari in my list.
Guard is the overpowered cheeseball faction that gets its turn in the limelight. They absolutely need sweeping nerfs but it won't happen. So just move on.
The OTHER factions should be balanced, this was a welcome change.
Marmatag wrote: Guard is the overpowered cheeseball faction that gets its turn in the limelight. They absolutely need sweeping nerfs but it won't happen. So just move on.
The OTHER factions should be balanced, this was a welcome change.
You can tell that they need sweeping nerfs by all the statistical analysis that's been done and posted on this very forum, in which guard are certainly Top 3 but are generally worse than Chaos as well as being less represented.
But sure, keep harping. Those of us who use data and make informed decisions will be confident regardless of your ill-informed whining.
BoomWolf wrote: Ynnari needed a nerf to stop being the eldar autopick, but this is too much.
This ability is still far better than what most other factions get.
Do you think Grey Knights would trade Draigo's reroll bubble for the ability to proc strength from death?
You can argue both. For example, I can think this nerf was too harsh *and* that GK need a buff. Both are true. Just because one faction was hit too hard doesn't dissolve or rationalize the underpoweredness of other factions.
MagicJuggler wrote: Let me know when Guard can only issue each Order once per turn...
...go on, I'll wait.
Once a unit is affected by an Order, it can't be affected by another.
It's functionally the same thing when it comes down to it--because who is going to issue "Fix Bayonets" to a Heavy Weapons Squad in the back with nobody near them?
You can issue "Take Aim" to multiple units of Cadian Mortars. There's a difference between "unit X gets only one buff Y" versus "buff Y can only be issued once."
MagicJuggler wrote: Let me know when Guard can only issue each Order once per turn...
...go on, I'll wait.
Once a unit is affected by an Order, it can't be affected by another.
It's functionally the same thing when it comes down to it--because who is going to issue "Fix Bayonets" to a Heavy Weapons Squad in the back with nobody near them?
It's not even close to functionally the same - every unit can have the same order cast on it. Only limit is how many orders you can cast - which is pretty easy to have for every unit in your army. Also are you sure you can't cast 2 orders on the same unit? Did that recently change?
MagicJuggler wrote: Let me know when Guard can only issue each Order once per turn...
...go on, I'll wait.
They do 0 orders per turn unless they pay points for them! This was free!
And yet Guard-centric lists still somehow keep winning tournaments. Oh, woe is the guard, they're so underpowered.
the point wasnt that Guard was underpowered, its that the parallel between orders and SfD doesn't hold up the way it was presented. Orders are something an IG player has to pay for and make an investment in, SfD does not require such an investment.
MagicJuggler wrote: Let me know when Guard can only issue each Order once per turn...
...go on, I'll wait.
Once a unit is affected by an Order, it can't be affected by another.
It's functionally the same thing when it comes down to it--because who is going to issue "Fix Bayonets" to a Heavy Weapons Squad in the back with nobody near them?
It's not even close to functionally the same - every unit can have the same order cast on it. Only limit is how many orders you can cast - which is pretty easy to have for every unit in your army. Also are you sure you can't cast 2 orders on the same unit? Did that recently change?
A unit may only be affected by one order per turn per p.85 of the IG codex.
The only exception (IIRC) is the Laurels of Command relic that allows a unit to be given a second order on a D6 roll of 4+.
MagicJuggler wrote: You can issue "Take Aim" to multiple units of Cadian Mortars. There's a difference between "unit X gets only one buff Y" versus "buff Y can only be issued once."
Yes, to two units per commander, limited by hq. And people with space marine captains are issuing "Take Aim" to every space marine unit within range simply by existing. The takeaway is that it seems that not all buffs are created equal, and they need to be considered and limited as appropriate to their capabilities.
Unless you're arguing that two units per 30 points rerolling 1s to hit is somehow on par with a free armywide rule that lets you have any unit act entirely all over again in whatever way is most convenient even if the action is out of phase.
I mean, soulburst always seemed strong, but I guess not anymore.
I might have limited it to once per phase, not turn.
*edit* after re-reading it, it looks they effectively did limit it to once per phase - you can only use one of the soulburst actions per turn. Since there are, as I recall, 4 soulburst actions, you could soulburst up to 4 times per turn. Which isn't bad.
But it's not I shot and killed you, so I'll shoot and kill you, then I'll shoot and kill you, in an endless cascade.
Its a pretty hard smack of the nerf bat, no denying....
... but I still think the ability is very useful and pretty strong which I think may indicate why it has been nerfed.
The no using during opponents turns makes the game speed up no end, allows the other player to play his turn without constant interruptions and doesn't have to second guess all his target choices - overall making playing against Ynnari a much more pleasant experience.
No taking the same action twice is certainly worse but you can still have a unit of reapers shoot twice, still move twice to get into charge range with some harlies, still attack twice with a wraithknight you just can't do all things with all units now.
Overall I think it still compares quite favourably with battlefocus and power from pain and you have the added benefit of a larger unit selection, the craftworld bonuses may help edge them ahead but its alot closer of a choice now whereas before the Ynnari were just plain better.
Good job GW, keep it up, a few points adjustments for guard and fixing forgeworld units is hopefully next on the agenda :-)
(for the record I don't play eldar of any flavour but am all for a well balanced game for what it is worth)
MagicJuggler wrote: Let me know when Guard can only issue each Order once per turn...
...go on, I'll wait.
Once a unit is affected by an Order, it can't be affected by another.
It's functionally the same thing when it comes down to it--because who is going to issue "Fix Bayonets" to a Heavy Weapons Squad in the back with nobody near them?
It's not even close to functionally the same - every unit can have the same order cast on it. Only limit is how many orders you can cast - which is pretty easy to have for every unit in your army. Also are you sure you can't cast 2 orders on the same unit? Did that recently change?
The only way to put 2 Orders on the same unit is the Laurels of Command Relic. On a 4+ you get to put a second Order(which cannot be the same Order, whether in Matched, Narrative, or Open Play) on the unit you issued an Order to. You have to resolve the effect of the first Order however(so if you did the rally from Fall Back one, you have to rally from Falling Back first and then you can FRFSRF or whatever).
There's also a Cadian warlord trait that allows for you to, on a 4+, apply the same issued Order to a second unit. It does stack with the Laurels of Command so a single Officer can potentially double Order up to 2 units at one time.
Also, yeah. It really is close to "functionally the same". You need to factor in:
A) Officer must be of same Regiment(Tempestor Primes can't issue Orders to anyone other than Scions, for example) and be present. HQ Officer can do 2x Orders per turn, others are 1x.
and
B) Officer must be in Order range (6" without a Vox-Caster, 18" with Vox-Caster and then the Officer has to be within 3" of a unit with a Vox-Caster to get that 18" range)
Prior to Laurels of Command, you could never apply two Orders to the same unit. Once a unit was targeted by an Order(even back when you had to roll LD), it was considered Ordered--even if the Order failed to take effect. Conscripts still have that part on them in fact with their "Raw Recruits" rule.
MagicJuggler wrote: You can issue "Take Aim" to multiple units of Cadian Mortars. There's a difference between "unit X gets only one buff Y" versus "buff Y can only be issued once."
Yes, to two units per commander, limited by hq. And people with space marine captains are issuing "Take Aim" to every space marine unit within range simply by existing. The takeaway is that it seems that not all buffs are created equal, and they need to be considered and limited as appropriate to their capabilities.
Unless you're arguing that two units per 30 points rerolling 1s to hit is somehow on par with a free armywide rule that lets you have any unit act entirely all over again in whatever way is most convenient even if the action is out of phase.
Cadians already reroll 1s to hit just for being Cadians. Take Aim lets them reroll *all* hits. Aka "Guide, if Standing Still." Note that Guide is an ability you pay for, have to cast, risk mortal wounds for, and can be Denied, yet it is still "one *attempt* per turn."
Cadians also have the Relic of Lost Cadia, which can be popped for a 12" aura of rerolling 1s to hit and wound (or rerolling everything versus Chaos.). RAI, it's one-use but RAW it isn't. And honestly, one round is all that's needed when you have a 12" radius of "I am Gulliman."
Incidentally, the fact that the developers wrote 8th 40k with the same phase structure instead of going for an ATB structure, despite 7th introducing numerous "out of phase" actions, is just sloppy game design on their part.
Specifically: "Page 76 – Strength from Death
Add the following paragraph:
‘Matched Play: If you are playing a matched play game, a unit
from your army cannot make a Soulburst action if a friendly
unit has already made the same Soulburst action during your
turn. In addition, units from your army cannot perform any
Soulburst actions during your opponent’s turn.’"
MagicJuggler wrote: You can issue "Take Aim" to multiple units of Cadian Mortars. There's a difference between "unit X gets only one buff Y" versus "buff Y can only be issued once."
Yes, to two units per commander, limited by hq. And people with space marine captains are issuing "Take Aim" to every space marine unit within range simply by existing. The takeaway is that it seems that not all buffs are created equal, and they need to be considered and limited as appropriate to their capabilities.
Unless you're arguing that two units per 30 points rerolling 1s to hit is somehow on par with a free armywide rule that lets you have any unit act entirely all over again in whatever way is most convenient even if the action is out of phase.
Cadians already reroll 1s to hit just for being Cadians. Take Aim lets them reroll *all* hits. Aka "Guide, if Standing Still." Note that Guide is an ability you pay for, have to cast, risk mortal wounds for, and can be Denied, yet it is still "one *attempt* per turn."
The Cadian trait requires the unit to stay still.
Take Aim is an ability that you lose when an Officer is killed and it has a 6" range versus the range on Guide.
Cadians also have the Relic of Lost Cadia, which can be popped for a 12" aura of rerolling 1s to hit and wound (or rerolling everything versus Chaos.). RAI, it's one-use but RAW it isn't. And honestly, one round is all that's needed when you have a 12" radius of "I am Gulliman."
Oh please. Rerolling 1s to Hit when you're a Cadian unit to begin with is at best "Meh" since it doesn't just grant you rerolls of everything that "Take Aim" does. There's also an Order that can be issued that grants rerolls on 1s to Wound...but if you do that without Laurels of Command, you might not get Take Aim or FRFSRF.
It's also worth noting that the only time it really comes in handy is when you're doing like that schmuck at the Atlanta tournament did and shoving it in with a bunch of Manticores or other tanks, since he would hide the (notably illegal since Primaris Psykers can't take RoLC as they don't have <Regiment> Relic bearer back with the Manticores./tanks.
Arachnofiend wrote: Ah, there it is, thank you. Weird that there wasn't an announcement for this on the community site.
You're welcome - their community site is kind of crappy for new announcements. I swear, I've seen discussion threads on reddit before the link even shows up on the community site.
So aside from a Partol detachment with Yvraine, 10 Reapers and a "who cares" Troop unit, I don't think we'll be seeing Ynnari at any Tournament, or probably in any casual play.
Not being able to activate Soulburst in the opponent's turn pretty much means it's only optimal use is in 2 situations: A) 1 Shooting unit through the use of a psychic power (Word of the Phoenix) or B) 1 Melee unit that charged
I could see maybe using if with a close range shooting unit like WG or Fire Dragons, but only on the turn they disembark from a Serpent.
All other situations can be completely controlled by the opponent. Considering that you must have a Ynnari Warlord just to access the 1 Soulburst you get per turn, I think I'd rather just use those points on a second unit of whatever I want to "shoot twice"
Yeah, but it gets dumb fast if you can act on your opponent's turn.
A unit arrives from deep strike. You pay 2cp to shoot it with your dark reapers. You kill that unit. You soulburst! You kill another unit with the same reapers. Other things soulburst! Want to take all kinds of actions in your opponent's movement phase? Go for it! #counterplay
Marmatag wrote: A unit arrives from deep strike. You pay 2cp to shoot it with your dark reapers. You kill that unit. You soulburst! You kill another unit with the same reapers. Other things soulburst! Want to take all kinds of actions in your opponent's movement phase? Go for it! #counterplay
None of that is possible for players who READ THE RULES. It's impossible to Soulburst off a unit that died outside of 7". Since every single "deep strike" unit has to come in outside out 9", it isn't possible to Soulburst off of that unit's death. And how else are YOUR units dying in YOUR turn while within 7" of a Ynnari unit (aside from melee)?
And paying the CP for the "intercept" has nothing to do with Ynnari. So if the solution to a CWE unit being overpowered by using a CWE Stratagem is nerfing the heck out of Ynnari, then I must be out of touch with the rules. #sarcasm.
Well, i was wrong about the 7", so that's a good catch. I'm just trying to envision a scenario where the new rules make the Ynaari too strong, but out of phase. Since the big change is really that it can't proc on the opponents turn. I'm wondering what the motivation was for that.
I do agree with GW that you shouldn't be able to chain soulbursts and annihilate your opponent in 1 turn, that was far too strong.
Personally, I would have been fine if you couldn't repeat that same Soulburst action per player turn. That would have been the perfect balance as currently having SfD just means multiple units getting to shoot twice, because other actions are not nearly as powerful.
But disallowing any Soulburst action in the opponent's turn pretty much ensures Soulburst only goes off once per turn regardless of the type of action because you'll need either Yvraine or Yncarne casts Word of the Phoenix on a unit.
Galef wrote: Personally, I would have been fine if you couldn't repeat that same Soulburst action per player turn. That would have been the perfect balance as currently having SfD just means multiple units getting to shoot twice, because other actions are not nearly as powerful.
But disallowing any Soulburst action in the opponent's turn pretty much ensures Soulburst only goes off once per turn regardless of the type of action because you'll need either Yvraine or Yncarne casts Word of the Phoenix on a unit.
Yeah, allowing it on the opponents turn would be okay with me, with it being restricted.
It is rather silly though to find yourself in a situation where you can't kill a unit with 1 wound left, because you'll get annihilated by the Wraithguards behind it.
Eldar overall got markedly stronger in the codex. I think this will all balance out.
Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.
momerathe wrote: Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.
And also AOF can only be done once per turn, unless you pay points... so actually, soulburst is how AOF is now.
momerathe wrote: Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.
And also AOF can only be done once per turn, unless you pay points... so actually, soulburst is how AOF is now.
Well... it's really 2, because Celestine gives you a free one, and any list featuring acts of faith will have Celestine.
BoomWolf wrote: Ynnari needed a nerf to stop being the eldar autopick, but this is too much.
So they have still the best faction-hability in the game, and this is too much?
Is it though?
Getting Ynnari makes you lose ancient doom, battle focus, power from pain and rising crecendo, on top of losing any ability to get from craftworld, masque, coven, kabal or wytch cult (DE have 3 sets of "factions". this is so wierd. I wonder if they all get actual rules eventually)
Plus, you give up on stratagems, relics and warlord traits (you can cheese most stratagems with a craftworld detachment, but that's not pure ynnari no more)
So the SfD need to equal and top ALL of the possible combinations to be the "best"
Now, putting aside the benefits that vehicles gain and StD doesn't even effect them, lets look just on infantry and bikers.
You need SfD to beat constant -1 to hit at 12" from any of your models coupled with the ability to move and advance with no ill effect to assault/rapid weapons. plus relic choice. plus warlord choice beyond the 3 ynnari chars, plus warlord traits.
So, what does SfD even does now?
You got 5 abilities you can trigger once per turn
A unit can move again
A unit can shoot again
A unit may cast another power (this does NOT override the power limit, so basically cast another smite)
A unit can charge (though it doesn't let them attack)
A unit can fight again
To trigger ANY of these, you have to first get the unit you want it to trigger on within 7" of an enemy unit, and then wipe that unit completely.
Alternately, you got one psyker power that triggers on of these abilities, IF you manage the cast, and then it still takes up the usage.
So, going one by one.
Move again. you need to get close, in order to unlock getting closer if you killed the enemy. hardly breathtaking.
Shoot again. just how many shooty units that are worth triggering this on can and want to get within 7" of the enemy?
Casting another power. getting another smite is nice, but again requires a psyker within 7" of the enemy, and actually wiping something out. other than Yacrane, there is little that fits the bill.
Charging. you wiped out a unit within 7" to get to charge your dudes. if you had a unit worth unit this on within 7" of the enemy you juts wiped, they could probably already charge anyway. this is only useful for charging after a won melee at another target, good luck with that. (and you don't get to fight this turn, the fight phase has ended)
Fight again, you need to be in combat while wiping out another unit within 7", not going to trigger all that often unless you somehow found yourself in a mosh pit scenario. who on earth will allow a mosh pit to happen against ynnari is beyond me as the "basic" tactic against them to begin with is to spread out and try to isolate units.
Given the relative difficulty to trigger them, the fact you can't cascade them, that you can only use each once and that ieven if you went through the hoops, the unit that can get them is probably no where it wants to be anyway-SfD just no longer compares with blanket -1 to hi at 12", or with FnP6 to make you die less, or big stuff not degrading until they are practically dead, etc.
The craftworld abilities are not as massive, but they work for every unit on the table, all the time. and you take the craftworld that fits your army, not just any random one.
The hit is just too big now. and it creates the akward counter-synrgy that having more ynnari on the table makes each ynnari activly worse (and there are less soulbursts per unit around), just like it used to be for old SoB when they had a limited number of "miracles", making each unit activly drain others, or how psykers work now that each high-level psyker you got around makes others worse because they compete over casting the same powers.
Comparing soulburst to acts of faith or Guard orders is pretty meaningsless. Soulburst should be compared with Power From Pain, Rising Crescendo and CWE bonuses. Once you have some kind of internal balance, then you can balance the entire soup against the other soups.
BoomWolf wrote: Ynnari needed a nerf to stop being the eldar autopick, but this is too much.
So they have still the best faction-hability in the game, and this is too much?
Is it though?
Getting Ynnari makes you lose ancient doom, battle focus, power from pain and rising crecendo, on top of losing any ability to get from craftworld, masque, coven, kabal or wytch cult (DE have 3 sets of "factions". this is so wierd. I wonder if they all get actual rules eventually)
Plus, you give up on stratagems, relics and warlord traits (you can cheese most stratagems with a craftworld detachment, but that's not pure ynnari no more)
So the SfD need to equal and top ALL of the possible combinations to be the "best"
Now, putting aside the benefits that vehicles gain and StD doesn't even effect them, lets look just on infantry and bikers.
You need SfD to beat constant -1 to hit at 12" from any of your models coupled with the ability to move and advance with no ill effect to assault/rapid weapons. plus relic choice. plus warlord choice beyond the 3 ynnari chars, plus warlord traits.
So, what does SfD even does now?
You got 5 abilities you can trigger once per turn
A unit can move again
A unit can shoot again
A unit may cast another power (this does NOT override the power limit, so basically cast another smite)
A unit can charge (though it doesn't let them attack)
A unit can fight again
To trigger ANY of these, you have to first get the unit you want it to trigger on within 7" of an enemy unit, and then wipe that unit completely.
Alternately, you got one psyker power that triggers on of these abilities, IF you manage the cast, and then it still takes up the usage.
So, going one by one.
Move again. you need to get close, in order to unlock getting closer if you killed the enemy. hardly breathtaking.
Shoot again. just how many shooty units that are worth triggering this on can and want to get within 7" of the enemy?
Casting another power. getting another smite is nice, but again requires a psyker within 7" of the enemy, and actually wiping something out. other than Yacrane, there is little that fits the bill.
Charging. you wiped out a unit within 7" to get to charge your dudes. if you had a unit worth unit this on within 7" of the enemy you juts wiped, they could probably already charge anyway. this is only useful for charging after a won melee at another target, good luck with that. (and you don't get to fight this turn, the fight phase has ended)
Fight again, you need to be in combat while wiping out another unit within 7", not going to trigger all that often unless you somehow found yourself in a mosh pit scenario. who on earth will allow a mosh pit to happen against ynnari is beyond me as the "basic" tactic against them to begin with is to spread out and try to isolate units.
Given the relative difficulty to trigger them, the fact you can't cascade them, that you can only use each once and that ieven if you went through the hoops, the unit that can get them is probably no where it wants to be anyway-SfD just no longer compares with blanket -1 to hi at 12", or with FnP6 to make you die less, or big stuff not degrading until they are practically dead, etc.
The craftworld abilities are not as massive, but they work for every unit on the table, all the time. and you take the craftworld that fits your army, not just any random one.
The hit is just too big now. and it creates the akward counter-synrgy that having more ynnari on the table makes each ynnari activly worse (and there are less soulbursts per unit around), just like it used to be for old SoB when they had a limited number of "miracles", making each unit activly drain others, or how psykers work now that each high-level psyker you got around makes others worse because they compete over casting the same powers.
You don't give up stratagems, relics and warlord traits (As one Ynnari needs to be your warlord the warlord trait doesn't matter, but the Relics and Stratagems does). The "Ynnari" keyword is an addition that doesn't erase the <Craftworld> one.
You don't give up stratagems, relics and warlord traits (As one Ynnari needs to be your warlord the warlord trait doesn't matter, but the Relics and Stratagems does). The "Ynnari" keyword is an addition that doesn't erase the <Craftworld> one.
Except you do.
As per older FAQs, if you want to play ynnari, you MUST have one of the three ynnari chars in that detachment (and one of them has to be your warlord), and at that point it does not qualify for the craftworld bonuses as its no longer a craftworld detachment.
You still have the craftworld keyword, but cant get any of the associated abilities without a separate non-ynnari detachment to get access. the warlord traits are lost forever, as you got a ynnari warlord though.
I can understand the Ynnari power not working on the opponent's turn, as GW have largely been steering away from stuff that you use in the enemy turn (outside of saves, obviously).
It's annoying perhaps, but I think it does help simplify things a bit (rather than the possibility of an opponent getting free move, psychic, shoot and/or charge phases mid-way through your turn).
Limiting it to one soulburst type per turn is a bit odd though.
I don't hate this change, but it really does feel like one of those 'papering over the cracks' fixes.
momerathe wrote: Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.
And also AOF can only be done once per turn, unless you pay points... so actually, soulburst is how AOF is now.
Well... it's really 2, because Celestine gives you a free one, and any list featuring acts of faith will have Celestine.
I think they meant taking celestine or the other one by paying points for one.
momerathe wrote: Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.
And also AOF can only be done once per turn, unless you pay points... so actually, soulburst is how AOF is now.
Well... it's really 2, because Celestine gives you a free one, and any list featuring acts of faith will have Celestine.
I think they meant taking celestine or the other one by paying points for one.
Yes, Celestine and Imagifiers actually cost points, believe it or not.
The only good Ynarri detachment will be Yvraine + Dark reapers and then the cheapest troop (patrol) or fast attack (outrider). Anything else is garbage imo.
Pretty amazing they ruin an entire playstyle with a FAQ and then also re-release the triumvirate.
You know, it's amazing how it didn't even take one page before this thread turned in to endless whining about guard, when the thread itself is about Eldar.
Anyway, it looks like it's limited to one per unit per turn, not one per turn period, so not TOO heavy of a nerf at least?
Very disappointing. It's an over-nerf to a faction which I doubt GW plans to give real support to. It feels like they sold a box on power, with the promise of a new concept, and now they stripped away the power and offer nothing to the concept.
Yvraine now will just get proxied as a farseer and the yncarne will collect dust. I actually designed my whole personal craftworld to be ynarri as I dug the lore: blending dark eldar and eldar motifs.
I agree on it being best to have a balance between battlefocus/sfd/pfp but I'd have much rather they made battlefocus worth something (costed accordingly) and sfd toned down more reasonably so the trade was between those powers.
The fact that you have to weight sfd against having your own actual relics/strategems/traits is lame
Kirasu wrote: The only good Ynarri detachment will be Yvraine + Dark reapers and then the cheapest troop (patrol) or fast attack (outrider). Anything else is garbage imo.
Pretty amazing they ruin an entire playstyle with a FAQ and then also re-release the triumvirate.
Actually, it is pretty par for the course for GW, release or re-release a kit, sell as many as they can, then nerf it horribly in hopes that the customer will buy something else to replace the nerfed unit
Soul Burst is a bad mechanic as it is. I do like the idea of a hyper-aggressive pixie-style army that gets off of big, dangerous plays, but Soul Burst just did so much for so little. If GW wants to keep Ynnari as a thing, they need to be seriously looked at and redesigned from the ground up (ideally as their own faction, and not some coked-up soup).
Fafnir wrote: Soul Burst is a bad mechanic as it is. I do like the idea of a hyper-aggressive pixie-style army that gets off of big, dangerous plays, but Soul Burst just did so much for so little. If GW wants to keep Ynnari as a thing, they need to be seriously looked at and redesigned from the ground up (ideally as their own faction, and not some coked-up soup).
See, I'm the opposite. I like Ynnari being a soup army unlocked by certain characters. I also thought Soulburst going off on enemy turns created a fun and varied environment. When fighting Ynnari you had to think of the board completely differently and focus on weaking lots of units rather than outright destroying a couple of them. I even gave the faction a spin a few times (using spouse's Eldar units) and found them as much fun to play as to fight.
Fafnir wrote: Soul Burst is a bad mechanic as it is. I do like the idea of a hyper-aggressive pixie-style army that gets off of big, dangerous plays, but Soul Burst just did so much for so little. If GW wants to keep Ynnari as a thing, they need to be seriously looked at and redesigned from the ground up (ideally as their own faction, and not some coked-up soup).
See, I'm the opposite. I like Ynnari being a soup army unlocked by certain characters. I also thought Soulburst going off on enemy turns created a fun and varied environment. When fighting Ynnari you had to think of the board completely differently and focus on weaking lots of units rather than outright destroying a couple of them. I even gave the faction a spin a few times (using spouse's Eldar units) and found them as much fun to play as to fight.
Different strokes for different folks.
I don't like faction that DEPENDS on using special characters. Ynnari really don't fight any battles without one of three specific characters? Feels like saying you can't have Cadian army without Creed or Steel Legions without Yarrick.
Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.
If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.
Galef wrote: Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.
If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.
As it stands right now, nothing points towards them getting a "dual" codex with anyone.
Earth127 wrote: Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.
I am really puzzled by what GW's plan for them is. They made these gorgeous models and I thought they were gonna be a big deal, and now they're nerfed to oblivion.
Earth127 wrote: Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.
I am really puzzled by what GW's plan for them is. They made these gorgeous models and I thought they were gonna be a big deal, and now they're nerfed to oblivion.
The plan is that it likely won't have anything in the short term, hence the nerf to oblivion.
Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then. They're tying stuff to story.
For the Ynnari, we know that the Visarch is a Big Deal for the "fighter" side of things, Yvraine is a Big Deal for the "caster" side of things, and the Avatar of Ynnead is a Big Deal for the lore and things like that.
Earth127 wrote: Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.
I am really puzzled by what GW's plan for them is. They made these gorgeous models and I thought they were gonna be a big deal, and now they're nerfed to oblivion.
The plan is that it likely won't have anything in the short term, hence the nerf to oblivion.
Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then. They're tying stuff to story.
For the Ynnari, we know that the Visarch is a Big Deal for the "fighter" side of things, Yvraine is a Big Deal for the "caster" side of things, and the Avatar of Ynnead is a Big Deal for the lore and things like that.
Yvrain was a Succubus and an Aspect Warrior before that, she's a pretty big deal for fighters as well.
Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then.
I don't think that is really the same thing. Those models were originally done for SIlver Tower, not for AOS.
Everything in Silver Tower was done for AoS.
Hell, if this doesn't tell you:
GW is big on branding right now. Notice how everything for Shadespire says "Warhammer Underworlds: Shadespire" on it? Or how the bundle boxes of heroes for Silver Tower said "Warhammer Quest"?
When stuff is intended for one specific thing, it gets a specific title and product branding.
Not originally. Sure, they later repackaged them for AOS, but that's not why they were originally designed; although they probably are a good indication of new Aelf look when they finally get around making new kits.
But they Ynnari were a big deal strorywise for 40K, so it is odd that they're now sidelined.
So I've been evaluating the change for my list (in spoiler) and I still just don't see myself switching out of Ynnari for pure CW:E. Ultimately I don't really consider the WL Traits or Relics worth the lost opportunity to double shoot with a few key units - the stratagems are fantastic but I can access those via my two CWE detachments and still bring a Ynnari Battalion. I think it is now about evaluating what units benefit from <Craftworld> traits and which from the potential of SfD. Granted I'm not thrilled about the change but I don't agree that it kills the army or renders it useless - but I don't have a high opinion of the CWE relics and WL traits. I'd still rather be able to generate an extra shooting attack from a high value shooting unit or possibly getting 2 units to take extra moves in a turn. Its probably worth noting as well that I'm not amazed by any of the CWE troop selections - I feel like they require too much investment to make them worthwhile - I'd simply rather have cheap troops with access to a reasonably fast and cheap transport.
Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then.
I don't think that is really the same thing. Those models were originally done for SIlver Tower, not for AOS.
Everything in Silver Tower was done for AoS.
Hell, if this doesn't tell you:
GW is big on branding right now. Notice how everything for Shadespire says "Warhammer Underworlds: Shadespire" on it? Or how the bundle boxes of heroes for Silver Tower said "Warhammer Quest"?
When stuff is intended for one specific thing, it gets a specific title and product branding.
They do like branding, but those models incorporate a whole new design philosophy for Aelves. They likely will become a faction one day, a "dark elf" equivalent that lives on the plain of shadow most likely. If you have ever read their designer interviews in WD they have a deliberate way they make design elements in models for specific game lines, like how the eyes have been the same on all eldar since they were pretty much invented. These new models carry some new design trends that seem very deliberate on their part to make a new line but keeping the feel of old lines. I think a similar idea will come to pass for the Ynnari and they will get to have their own line of infantry and such, likely modeled in the way of ancient Eldar, much like how the Visarch's armor incorporates design elements from both DE and Craftworld but with a more "ancient empire" feel to it, and all with be festooned with soulstones. They will also likely share the same vehicles, but I can see them having an upgrade sprue to go with it.
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Crimson wrote: Not originally. Sure, they later repackaged them for AOS, but that's not why they were originally designed; although they probably are a good indication of new Aelf look when they finally get around making new kits.
But they Ynnari were a big deal strorywise for 40K, so it is odd that they're now sidelined.
They did say there would be campaign books and I have no doubt Ynnari will get their own. Yrvaine has had 100 years to gather followers and develop their own personal style (hence the need for a new infantry kit).
Earth127 wrote: Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.
I thought GW was on record saying that they (along with all of the minor factions, like GSC) would be getting a codex?
As I recall it was all the major factions get a codex? They did not define what was and what was not a "major" faction - except of course any group of about a 1000 marines
Crimson wrote: Not originally. Sure, they later repackaged them for AOS, but that's not why they were originally designed; although they probably are a good indication of new Aelf look when they finally get around making new kits.
Okay.
I don't know if you're just willfully ignoring the point being made or not, but:
When those two were first introduced? They literally were called out as being "Shadowkin". They were stated to be our first look at an army that would be coming down the road.
None of this garbage about "originally designed for Silver Tower" or anything. That never once got stated. And unless you can show me something from Silver Tower that hasn't either been coopted from Age of Sigmar or later made an appearance in Age of Sigmar, your point is at best nonsensically splitting hairs.
But they Ynnari were a big deal strorywise for 40K, so it is odd that they're now sidelined.
And the disappearance of Slaanesh from the Sigmarverse isn't a "Big Deal" story-wise? The only thing we ever had going with that plotline is that Slaanesh's followers are looking for it and they've been going to the Realm of Shadows to do so.
Earth127 wrote: Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.
I thought GW was on record saying that they (along with all of the minor factions, like GSC) would be getting a codex?
As I recall it was all the major factions get a codex? They did not define what was and what was not a "major" faction - except of course any group of about a 1000 marines
The statement was that anything that had a codex would get a codex and some things that got introduced as part of the Gathering Storm would get a codex as well.
Skitarii are the only ones which haven't gotten a codex that had a codex before, but the whining about them being separate from Cult Mechanicus probably just precluded that from being left alone.
Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then.
I don't think that is really the same thing. Those models were originally done for SIlver Tower, not for AOS.
Everything in Silver Tower was done for AoS.
Hell, if this doesn't tell you:
GW is big on branding right now. Notice how everything for Shadespire says "Warhammer Underworlds: Shadespire" on it? Or how the bundle boxes of heroes for Silver Tower said "Warhammer Quest"?
When stuff is intended for one specific thing, it gets a specific title and product branding.
They do like branding, but those models incorporate a whole new design philosophy for Aelves. They likely will become a faction one day, a "dark elf" equivalent that lives on the plain of shadow most likely. If you have ever read their designer interviews in WD they have a deliberate way they make design elements in models for specific game lines, like how the eyes have been the same on all eldar since they were pretty much invented. These new models carry some new design trends that seem very deliberate on their part to make a new line but keeping the feel of old lines. I think a similar idea will come to pass for the Ynnari and they will get to have their own line of infantry and such, likely modeled in the way of ancient Eldar, much like how the Visarch's armor incorporates design elements from both DE and Craftworld but with a more "ancient empire" feel to it, and all with be festooned with soulstones. They will also likely share the same vehicles, but I can see them having an upgrade sprue to go with it.
We KNOW they are part of a faction. They're called the Shadowkin. They dwell in the Realm of Shadows, have ties to the Fyreslayers in said Realm of Shadows, and are led by Malerion and his "Shadow Princes".
Beyond that, we have not gotten anything. They've said Shadowkin will "have their time" but it wasn't time yet. We know that the next Realmwars section will deal with Slaanesh being missing, Nagash coming back, and a few other Big Deals.
Earth127 wrote: I remember as all factions that curently have a codex. (end of 7th)
Yes, and there was further clarification that there "would be new things to come as well".
Everyone immediately started with the garbage about "PRIMARIS CODEX! THEY WANT TO SCREW US OVER!". So far the only armies to get screwed over that way have been people who played pure Skitarii or people who played pure Tempestus(although Tempestus can still be done, Skitarii can't).
Harlequin were the other army that was built similar to Skitarii(No HQs in their Detachment) but were given an HQ to make them "fit" the new detachments.
Galef wrote: Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.
If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.
As it stands right now, nothing points towards them getting a "dual" codex with anyone.
Nothing except logic, which I'll grant you may not be GW's strong suit.
But right now, Ynnari only have 3 units, all characters. Harlies only have 8 total units, 4 of which are characters and 2 share the vehicle kit.
Even if you put them in the same book, it would only consist of a dozen unit entries, 2 sets for WL traits & relics and 2 sets of Stratagems. That's a small book, but at least enough content overall.
If Harlies or Ynnari get separate books, neither would be a worthwhile amount of content to merit getting a book in the first place. Harlies might get their own Codex, but if Ynnari are not part of that book, it is unlikely they'll get one at all.
Galef wrote: Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.
If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.
As it stands right now, nothing points towards them getting a "dual" codex with anyone.
Nothing except logic, which I'll grant you may not be GW's strong suit.
But right now, Ynnari only have 3 units, all characters. Harlies only have 8 total units, 4 of which are characters and 2 share the vehicle kit.
Even if you put them in the same book, it would only consist of a dozen unit entries, 2 sets for WL traits & relics and 2 sets of Stratagems. That's a small book, but at least enough content overall.
If Harlies or Ynnari get separate books, neither would be a worthwhile amount of content to merit getting a book in the first place. Harlies might get their own Codex, but if Ynnari are not part of that book, it is unlikely they'll get one at all.
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Who says there needs to be a specific amount of content to merit getting a book?
That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.
Skitarii never should have been their own faction in the first place, they were always inherently and organically a part of the Mechanicus. Splitting the two was silly in 7th, just like splitting Stormtroopers off into their own book was.
That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.
Um, Skitarii should never have gotten their own codex in the first place. It's all Admech.
Harlequins should never have received their own codex in 7th either. Prior to that codex, Harlies were a 1 unit entry in both the Eldar and DE codices.
Players shouldn't have to pay $40-$50 for the rules for less than a dozen units. THAT is the standard in which an "army" should merit it's own book.
Skitarii and Harlies are not whole armies in their own right, but fringe factions of larger forces. Ynnari are even less so. It anything, the rules for Ynnari would only be about a dozen pages long. Smaller than a White Dwarf. Yet GW will fill it will unneeded full and charge at least $30 for it. THAT is what should be discouraged.
Who says there needs to be a specific amount of content to merit getting a book?
Most people, probably. It is just dumb to publish a whole codex for thee characters.
That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.
Let it go, you're probably the only person in the world who thinks that it was a bad call.
There is zero reason to release codicies for armies with only 3 units, it's pointless and a waste of time and money. GW would still have the same publishing costs, so the book would still be sold for £30 or whatever, and then everyone would complain that they're paying so much money for 3 pages of rules.
That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.
Um, Skitarii should never have gotten their own codex in the first place. It's all Admech.
Harlequins should never have received their own codex in 7th either. Prior to that codex, Harlies were a 1 unit entry in both the Eldar and DE codices.
Players shouldn't have to pay $40-$50 for the rules for less than a dozen units. THAT is the standard in which an "army" should merit it's own book.
Skitarii and Harlies are not whole armies in their own right, but fringe factions of larger forces. Ynnari are even less so. It anything, the rules for Ynnari would only be about a dozen pages long. Smaller than a White Dwarf. Yet GW will fill it will unneeded full and charge at least $30 for it. THAT is what should be discouraged.
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Chapter Approved is coming out annually again and was a good spot to stick some of the more marginal army lists in the past. I'd be perfectly fine is that's where Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Kroot Mercenaries, Ynnari, Feral Orks and the like get updated in the future rather than separate Codexes.
That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.
Um, Skitarii should never have gotten their own codex in the first place. It's all Admech.
Harlequins should never have received their own codex in 7th either. Prior to that codex, Harlies were a 1 unit entry in both the Eldar and DE codices.
And prior to those codices, Harlequin had their own army list.
Players shouldn't have to pay $40-$50 for the rules for less than a dozen units. THAT is the standard in which an "army" should merit it's own book.
Skitarii and Harlies are not whole armies in their own right, but fringe factions of larger forces. Ynnari are even less so. It anything, the rules for Ynnari would only be about a dozen pages long. Smaller than a White Dwarf. Yet GW will fill it will unneeded full and charge at least $30 for it. THAT is what should be discouraged.
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That's your opinion.
The standard for an army to merit its own book is that it would need its own book. Skitarii, for example, had a modest but respectable number of units(7) but the key difference between them and the Cult Mechanicus(which had 6 units at its launch. Don't believe me? Dominus, Kastelan, Destroyers, Breachers, Corpuscarii, Fulgurite. It wasn't until "Agents of the Imperium" that the Techpriest Enginseer and his Servitors were added into the mix, Gathering Storm for Cawl, and then 8th edition for the Datasmith to be added as his own unit entry) came down to their gameplay mechanics.
Cult Mechanicus required multiple units and scaled better at higher points, Skitarii remained static but had cheaper units. CM players whined they needed the cheap units to be successful and now Skitarii got screwed over because of people not learning how to play their army or figuring things out for themselves.
Speaking for myself? If you continue to try to pretend that my army wasn't valid because it didn't meet some imaginary criteria that you came up with in your head, then I hope your army gets the same treatment.
A lackluster book that requires you to purchase things in order to field what you had before.
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content. All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds. You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction. Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.
GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.
EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.
Galef wrote: I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.
And just for clarity's sake?
At launch for each book, the following were the unit counts:
Skitarii--Rangers, Vanguard, Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dragoons, Ballistari, and Dunecrawlers. 7 units at launch.
Cult Mechanicus--Kastelan Robots(Remember: Datasmiths came as part of this unit, they were not a separate unit), Kataphron Destroyers, Kataphron Breachers, Dominus, Corpuscarii, Fulgurite. 6 units at launch.
Then we got Codex: Imperial Agents which added the Techpriest Enginseer and his Servitors to the mix, bringing Cult up to 8 units and lastly Gathering Storm bringing Cawl into it for 9.
Knights were not a part of either Codex and neither book had shared rules. It required formations/detachments for that to happen(one from White Dwarf, one from a web order bundle, and the last from the Gathering Storm book I).
I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.
CULT Mechanicus had wildly different rules compared to the Skitarii did, and Skitarii lost their special rules to get shoved in with Cult units.
It's like saying Dark Eldar and Eldar could be 2 fully different armies yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords...but we know that's not true, don't we?
The mechanics of Dark Eldar and Eldar are different enough to justify them being split into different books. From their basic weapons to their special rules, it just wouldn't be the same thing now would it?
GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.
EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.
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And this is where you're wrong.
None of the books that got released that were the "small books" required separate books to use things. Someone buying Codex: Skitarii didn't have to pay a single damn cent to field a model from the Skitarii range. The Start Collecting set was a notable exception, but even then...it included the basic rules/stats for the Dominus and a Skitarii player didn't have to use it unless they wanted to.
That's a fallacious argument, unless you're trying to insinuate that the smaller books couldn't be effective on their own--in which case it varied wildly based upon the play group you were in. I did fairly well with a strictly Skitarii force and never felt like I was at a disadvantage by not having Cult Mechanicus.
And this is where, I think, you really need to sit down and listen.
GW did not do a situation where the Skitarii are able to be "represented" sharing the book with another, equally small army. This isn't like Space Marines where you can field a purely Primaris or purely non-Primaris force. The thing that made Skitarii unique in the form of their Doctrina Imperatives was stripped from them to make them a (no pun intended) cog in an otherwise bland mechanism that is the AdMech book. It's still there in the form of a stratagem, but that's a garbage tradeoff and we all should recognize it as such. All it would have taken to flesh out Skitarii into a "real" army by your criteria to match this new edition was a pair of stupid HQ options.
Galef wrote: I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.
Through the absolute loosest interpretation of that statement, you could say that about literally any army.
Galef wrote: I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.
Through the absolute loosest interpretation of that statement, you could say that about literally any army.
Which again goes to why I think it idiotic to even remotely insinuate that some kind of criteria needs to be present to justify a codex or not.
Galef wrote: I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.
GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.
EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.
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Even though we are thoroughly off topic im going to agree, as a long time skitarii/cult player that they should have always been part of the same army, the difference between skitarii and their cult counterparts is about as much as the difference between Scions and Guard. Together they are far more useful, fluffy, and powerful then they ever were apart. Thats why the Convocation was such a hit (outside of its bonkers rules) it allowed you to play an ADMECH army.
Ynnarri should get a total revamp and product support (aka troops and vehicle upgrade sprue at least) or simply be a support faction like Custodes or Inquisition, no in betweens
Galef wrote: I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content. All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds. You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction. Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.
GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.
EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.
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Even though we are thoroughly off topic im going to agree, as a long time skitarii/cult player that they should have always been part of the same army, the difference between skitarii and their cult counterparts is about as much as the difference between Scions and Guard. Together they are far more useful, fluffy, and powerful then they ever were apart. Thats why the Convocation was such a hit (outside of its bonkers rules) it allowed you to play an ADMECH army.
BZZZT. Wrong.
The reason Convocation was such a hit was because of the bonkers rules. It allowed for Skitarii models, which were far cheaper than equivalent Cult units, to be counted as part for the Canticles. Take away that and it was a farce. Oh wow, free wargear on...well, a Knight? Some Skitarii?
Your idea of an AdMech army is not the same as mine, I might add. Having stupid Priests around != AdMech army. An AdMech army is all manner of esoteric wargear and an implacable advance that puts the enemy in their place with ruthless precision and no emotion.
Ynnarri should get a total revamp and product support (aka troops and vehicle upgrade sprue at least) or simply be a support faction like Custodes or Inquisition, no in betweens
And why should Ynnari get that? Lump them into the Dark Eldar book, who in turn get lumped in with the Harlequin.
After all there's only a "few rules" that differentiate them.
Galef wrote: I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.
GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.
EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.
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Even though we are thoroughly off topic im going to agree, as a long time skitarii/cult player that they should have always been part of the same army, the difference between skitarii and their cult counterparts is about as much as the difference between Scions and Guard. Together they are far more useful, fluffy, and powerful then they ever were apart. Thats why the Convocation was such a hit (outside of its bonkers rules) it allowed you to play an ADMECH army.
BZZZT. Wrong.
The reason Convocation was such a hit was because of the bonkers rules. It allowed for Skitarii models, which were far cheaper than equivalent Cult units, to be counted as part for the Canticles.
Take away that and it was a farce. Oh wow, free wargear on...well, a Knight? Some Skitarii?
Ah...literally hundreds of points worth of things like assault 3 plasma guns that never got hot and other wargear? That was monstrously powerful in and of itself
Galef wrote: I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.
GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.
EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.
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Even though we are thoroughly off topic im going to agree, as a long time skitarii/cult player that they should have always been part of the same army, the difference between skitarii and their cult counterparts is about as much as the difference between Scions and Guard. Together they are far more useful, fluffy, and powerful then they ever were apart. Thats why the Convocation was such a hit (outside of its bonkers rules) it allowed you to play an ADMECH army.
BZZZT. Wrong.
The reason Convocation was such a hit was because of the bonkers rules. It allowed for Skitarii models, which were far cheaper than equivalent Cult units, to be counted as part for the Canticles.
Take away that and it was a farce. Oh wow, free wargear on...well, a Knight? Some Skitarii?
Your idea of an AdMech army is not the same as mine, I might add. Having stupid Priests around != AdMech army. An AdMech army is all manner of esoteric wargear and an implacable advance that puts the enemy in their place with ruthless precision and no emotion.
Ynnarri should get a total revamp and product support (aka troops and vehicle upgrade sprue at least) or simply be a support faction like Custodes or Inquisition, no in betweens
And why should Ynnari get that? Lump them into the Dark Eldar book, who in turn get lumped in with the Harlequin.
After all there's only a "few rules" that differentiate them.
I apologize great Tech Priest, I spoke with opinion and that was harmful to Omnissiah, how dare I buy and play an army from day one and have pre conceived notions about how it was presented!
Ad Mech is led by Tech-Priests. It makes perfect sense to have some Tech-Priests in an Ad Mech army, even if it was primarily a Skitarii force. At minimun they need some priests to maintain their Dunecrawlers. The separation for two (three if you count the Knights) books was done for one reason alone: to sell people several books.
But I truly hope that 'Fires of Cyraxus' (when it will finally be released sometime in early 22nd century) will add a Skitarii HQ, if only to get Kan to shut up about it.
Kanluwen wrote: BZZZT. Wrong.
The reason Convocation was such a hit was because of the bonkers rules. It allowed for Skitarii models, which were far cheaper than equivalent Cult units, to be counted as part for the Canticles.
Take away that and it was a farce. Oh wow, free wargear on...well, a Knight? Some Skitarii?
Ah...literally hundreds of points worth of things like assault 3 plasma guns that never got hot and other wargear? That was monstrously powerful in and of itself
The problem is that, as I argued multiple times during 7th, the requirements of the War Convocation.
You had 2 Skitarii units(1 Ranger and 1 Vanguard), 2 units of Sicarian(1 Infiltrator and 1 Ruststalker) 1 unit of Ironstriders or Dragoons, and 1 unit of Onagers.
You did not get any more models free in those units and you could not add anything more to those selections.
You took a specific Formation from the Skitarii book, a specific Detachment from the Cult Mechanicus book, and a specific type of Knight(one that couldn't take any Relics).
So you could have at max:
6x Plasma Calivers, at 30 points each(double the points cost of a standard Plasma Gun) assuming you bought 5 more Vanguard and 5 more Rangers for the two squads. Otherwise you had 4x.
2x Enhanced Data-Tethers OR 2x Omnispex(this was a dummy choice as the EDT didn't stack with the Broad-Spectrum Data-Tether that the walkers all had on them at no cost and the Omnispex gave you some much needed anti-Cover shooting. Even outside of the War Convocation, this was considered a dummy choice.)
A melee and ranged weapon for your 4x unit leads
Some special issue wargear for the unit leads
A relic, maybe, for the unit leads.
Skitarii vehicle equipment(which was inordinately pricey and some of which wasn't allowed to be taken--i.e. no Smoke Launchers and Icarus Array for some reason--and none of it could be taken by anything but your Onagers)
You could alternate the off-hand weapon for the Kataphron(5 or 10 points but in many cases not considered worth it) since the primary weapon swaps were free.
You could add weapons/wargear/relics to a Techpriest Dominus.
And that was basically all you'd have points for even with "free" wargear since units and their upgrades still cost you points.
Crimson wrote: Ad Mech is led by Tech-Priests. It makes perfect sense to have some Tech-Priests in an Ad Mech army, even if it was primarily a Skitarii force. At minimun they need some priests to maintain their Dunecrawlers. The separation for two (three if you count the Knights) books was done for one reason alone: to sell people several books.
Except, again as stated, none of the two ways to use them as "several books" were in general circulation until The Gathering Storm...which didn't even give the War Convocation since they toned it down to the whining of all the people who wouldn't shut up about how "unfair" it was that they didn't get their hands on a copy of that White Dwarf or the webstore bundle(which I might add was actually awful as it didn't allow for Knights)
The White Dwarf with the War Convocation? Only legal way to get that formation. The webstore bundle? Only legal way to get that formation.
But I truly hope that 'Fires of Cyraxus' (when it will finally be released sometime in early 22nd century) will add a Skitarii HQ, if only to get Kan to shut up about it.
Deal with it. I've had to deal with people telling me that "your army should be rolled into X because otherwise GW is moneygrabbing!" for awhile now.
Anyways, the nerf may have been a bit much but I do hope that they'll help Ynnari out a bit further.
I don't know how I feel about it. On paper, the Ynnari ability is bonkers. In practice, it seemed good but not game-breakingly so, but I was playing IG, and I know what people say about IG. But as IG, I've actually consistently had a harder time with CWE than Ynnari. I'm not sure if that's a strange thing to say or not, but it's the truth.
I can't speak objectively about any of my other armies against Ynnari, because I haven't had those games yet.
daedalus wrote: You remember when this thread was about Ynnari?
Kinda feel like there's a lot of this going around lately.
Well it was driven off-topic by one person who can't help but interject about his now impure skitarii army.
Anyways, the nerf may have been a bit much but I do hope that they'll help Ynnari out a bit further.
Reread the thread boss. And if you don't like my posting, there's an ignore button you can use.
The Skitarii thing came up after Galef decided to chime in with a gem of a comment about how unit counts should be the justification for an army getting a codex or not.
I commented on that and it's spun out since.
For what it's worth? I absolutely do think that Ynnari need help. I do think that this nerf was a bit much, but as mentioned, I have a hard time feeling sympathetic since many of the complaints concerning Commissar+Conscripts that resulted in the Commissar nerf(that basically put them in the same state as the Ynnari stuff at the moment) came from Eldar players who fielded the cheap-o detachment of 3x Dark Reapers and Yvraine.
I'm actually concerned that Yvraine might see a more significant nerf down the line as will Eldar psykers but the true culprit(Dark Reapers) remain untouched. The ability to completely mitigate all To Hit modifiers is an issue that needed to be addressed but wasn't.
Anyways, the nerf may have been a bit much but I do hope that they'll help Ynnari out a bit further.
I don't know how I feel about it. On paper, the Ynnari ability is bonkers. In practice, it seemed good but not game-breakingly so, but I was playing IG, and I know what people say about IG. But as IG, I've actually consistently had a harder time with CWE than Ynnari. I'm not sure if that's a strange thing to say or not, but it's the truth.
I can't speak objectively about any of my other armies against Ynnari, because I haven't had those games yet.
I suspect Ynnari is gonna drop out of the meta for the most part, replaced by Alaitoc Craftworld armies.
Galef wrote: I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.
Er... I'm sorry, you're saying that Imperial Guard only have a handful of units? This isn't by his logic, or by any logic at all. Skitarii have what, 6 or 7 units? With a couple of those being single models. Imperial guard have that many variants of a single tank chassis.
I'm not even sure if you could field an army consisting of a single unit of every unit option in the IG codex for less than 2000 points. Maybe if you remove superheavies and characters.
Your logic is.. bizarre.
And anyway, noone said that Skitarii shouldn't have a codex release, just that they shouldn't have a seperate release. If they were going to have one, it should have been a dual-codex with cult mech. Which... is basically what they got, so go figure.
Ynnari should get a release with Harlequins. Or they should both just get put into Chapter Approved.
Guys, just ... don't keep going. Is one of his personal crusades like the Imperial Guard sargeants with Lasguns. You are never gonna reach any kind of point. Let him think what he wants.
Galef wrote: I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?
So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.
Er... I'm sorry, you're saying that Imperial Guard only have a handful of units? This isn't by his logic, or by any logic at all. Skitarii have what, 6 or 7 units? With a couple of those being single models. Imperial guard have that many variants of a single tank chassis.
I'm not even sure if you could field an army consisting of a single unit of every unit option in the IG codex for less than 2000 points. Maybe if you remove superheavies and characters.
Your logic is.. bizarre.
His statement implied that armies should have variety.
If you can't read my statement and figure out what is being implied there? Skitarii have 6 or 7 units, spread across everything but HQ. And one of those units(Ballistarii) was previously a Heavy Support but is now a Fast Attack choice. Skitarii are also, compared to Guard, one faction. You have 6 subfactions making up the Imperial Guard codex--which range from one model (Priests) to two models (Mechanicus Enginseers+their Servitors, Aeronautica Imperialis) to 3 units(Officio Prefectus and Astra Telepathica) to 4 units (Militarum Auxilla and Tempestus) to 34 units(the Guard themselves).
How old are Skitarii, as an army, compared to Guard again? How many Guard unit choices are redundant at this point? We already saw all of the Demolisher variants rolled into the Leman Russ Battle Tank variants. The same thing could have happened with Commissars(barring Yarrick), with a Stratagem upgrading one into a Lord Commissar like the Captain->Chapter Master nonsense. The same thing could have happened with the Sentinels, with a Stratagem bringing in Scout Sentinels or Armoured Sentinels.
Pretending that one method or the other is acceptable or reasonable? Isn't.
And anyway, noone said that Skitarii shouldn't have a codex release, just that they shouldn't have a seperate release. If they were going to have one, it should have been a dual-codex with cult mech. Which... is basically what they got, so go figure.
Sure, and Eldar should have been released with Dark Eldar.
And no, that's not what happened. A "dual-codex" would be what Space Marines got, where you can field a Primaris Chapter or a non-Primaris Chapter or a mixed Chapter. As it stands, we got the worst of ideas where it was a half-assed job to meet the fan demands that "everything be the same book".
Ynnari should get a release with Harlequins. Or they should both just get put into Chapter Approved.
No, they really shouldn't. Putting full army lists into Chapter Approved as anything other than playtesting/stopgap is unacceptable behavior.
Addendum: Sorry if this is coming across as mega-douchey or trolling. This is a subject I feel very strongly about and have written(pen & paper, mind you) to GW themselves about. I do not agree with shafting anyone's army in the manner that Skitarii were shafted(whether you agree with it being a "shafting" or not is irrelevant to my concerns--it was and I will continue to treat it as such) and feel that doing so is detrimental to the health and growth of 40k. Variety is the spice of life and the Adeptus Mechanicus book, I feel, was two steps backwards and a collapse to the ground wheezing. The introduction of the "Adeptus Mechanicus" faction title in 7th edition was a ray of hope for me that each army would be handled differently and be given room to grow differently.
Unfortunately that was not the case.
Now I'll bow out of this thread and let the Ynnari nerf discussions keep going while I go paint some Wanderers for AoS. Hopefully you all have a good night and I haven't soured the Dakka experience for any of you.
And anyway, noone said that Skitarii shouldn't have a codex release, just that they shouldn't have a seperate release. If they were going to have one, it should have been a dual-codex with cult mech. Which... is basically what they got, so go figure.
Sure, and Eldar should have been released with Dark Eldar.
Yes, exactly. Now you're getting it.
Or you would be, if Eldar and Dark Eldar only had 6 units each. As they both have significantly more than that, it seems like you're completely missing the point yet again.
I'm with the previous guy - Your lack of logical thought is boring, so feel free to crusade on your own time.
Thread's about Ynnari, not grievances about Skitarii and Ad Mech. Take it to PM guys, you've filled up a page of nonsense insofar as Ynnari nerfs are concerned.
Speaking of which, totally over the top. Ynnari were in a fine place before.
I mostly use close combat Dark Eldar with some Wraith units. I even bring a Wraith Knight (shock and horror!) I've never really even considered bringing Dark Reapers.
I'm not sure how well my army will function now.
At this point I know GW hates me. So far they've gutted Chaos Marines for 3 editions (they're actually good again, but Primaris has turned me off of marines permanently), gutted Dark Eldar for 3 editions, eliminated my Black Templars Codex, not released anything for Sisters of Battle for over a decade and a half and Gutted Grey Knights. Now they went after my Ynarri...cool. Can GW actually just not feth with any of the actually cool armies out there? I mean, why can't I have nice things?
Did I mention they killed Warhammer Fantasy? feth AoS
Galef wrote: Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.
If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.
As it stands right now, nothing points towards them getting a "dual" codex with anyone.
Nothing except logic, which I'll grant you may not be GW's strong suit.
But right now, Ynnari only have 3 units, all characters. Harlies only have 8 total units, 4 of which are characters and 2 share the vehicle kit.
Even if you put them in the same book, it would only consist of a dozen unit entries, 2 sets for WL traits & relics and 2 sets of Stratagems. That's a small book, but at least enough content overall.
If Harlies or Ynnari get separate books, neither would be a worthwhile amount of content to merit getting a book in the first place. Harlies might get their own Codex, but if Ynnari are not part of that book, it is unlikely they'll get one at all.
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This looks less like logic and more like jumping to conclusions. What makes you think thats all they'll have in their codecies, I mean GW has to release some models next year and the only marine codex left for '18 is the space furries so they're both good candidates for fleshing out.
Imateria wrote: This looks less like logic and more like jumping to conclusions. What makes you think thats all they'll have in their codecies, I mean GW has to release some models next year and the only marine codex left for '18 is the space furries so they're both good candidates for fleshing out.
+1 for me.
Its probably too joined up thinking, but I wouldn't be surprised if this change was less about Ynnari doing okay in tournaments and more that they are trying to test some new Ynnari stuff and they can't stop it wiping the floor with everyone with the current rules.
I mostly use close combat Dark Eldar with some Wraith units. I even bring a Wraith Knight (shock and horror!) I've never really even considered bringing Dark Reapers.
I'm not sure how well my army will function now.
At this point I know GW hates me. So far they've gutted Chaos Marines for 3 editions (they're actually good again, but Primaris has turned me off of marines permanently), gutted Dark Eldar for 3 editions, eliminated my Black Templars Codex, not released anything for Sisters of Battle for over a decade and a half and Gutted Grey Knights. Now they went after my Ynarri...cool. Can GW actually just not feth with any of the actually cool armies out there? I mean, why can't I have nice things?
Did I mention they killed Warhammer Fantasy? feth AoS
Well i use a heavy Wraith themed army mostly Craftworld focused and a Vanguard Detachment of Yvraine , Wraithguard , Wraithblades and one Spiritseer seems a sensible choice for Ynnari.
i can get a powerful unit extra round of shoot, an extra charge or melee round for the blades and the Spiritseer can be a perfect lynchpin for both units, getting extra move to reinforce other units or using the 2nd Psy power cast from soulburst to either heal and smite or just double heal when needed as his Path of the Shaper has no limit on uses.
This is bad nerf because it pretty muck kills pure Ynnari armies, but does little to cheesy tiny detachments of Yvraine + Reapers in Craftworld armies.
The Eldar Craftworld traits are not amazing, Battle Focus is still meh. Ynnari will still soulburst at key times (yes, you will now have to plan better) but it will be less cheesy. Yvraine is still a great character, as is the Yncarne. You still have access to a wide variety of units in the same detachment and with points reductions for most Craftworld ones.
The downside is that to get access to strategems you need at least one Eldar detachment but that could simply be a Supreme Command one with a small Seer Council led by Eldrad (gain CP boosting ability warlord trait), give a second character the remnant of glory (ghosthelm to a spiritseer). Now you can use the strategms that are not Craftworld specific.
I'm tempted to play them today but want to give my Iyanden a go against their nemesis Kraken hivefleet.
It kills them because the soulburst doesn't scale with the army size; you can do each burst only once. It works OK for small detachments, but not so well for whole armies.
It is also super lame that not even the Word of Phoenix allows bypassing this limitation.
Crimson wrote: It kills them because the soulburst doesn't scale with the army size; you can do each burst only once. It works OK for small detachments, but not so well for whole armies.
It is also super lame that not even the Word of Phoenix allows bypassing this limitation.
Man it would be neat if all the army rules scaled properly. SOB would be scary if they got more than one Act of faith that may not even work without having to pay points.
Crimson wrote: It kills them because the soulburst doesn't scale with the army size; you can do each burst only once. It works OK for small detachments, but not so well for whole armies.
It is also super lame that not even the Word of Phoenix allows bypassing this limitation.
Man it would be neat if all the army rules scaled properly. SOB would be scary if they got more than one Act of faith that may not even work without having to pay points.
Acts of Faith (plural, thanks Celestine) are not only far more versatile than soul bursts, but can be done effectively at will of the player. No deaths required, no 7" range requirement, and options beyond shooting/moving/charging. I think it'd be fair to argue that AoF are much stronger than Soulburst now...not to mention that SoB have additional army benefits while SfD is pretty much the only Ynnari army rule.
Crimson wrote: It kills them because the soulburst doesn't scale with the army size; you can do each burst only once. It works OK for small detachments, but not so well for whole armies.
It is also super lame that not even the Word of Phoenix allows bypassing this limitation.
Man it would be neat if all the army rules scaled properly. SOB would be scary if they got more than one Act of faith that may not even work without having to pay points.
Acts of Faith certainly have somewhat similar scaling problem, though you can use Imagifiers to alleviate that. If the Word of Phoenix would allow bypassing the limitation, and there were cheap generic Ynnari psykers with that power then it would be more comparable.
Galef wrote: Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.
If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.
As it stands right now, nothing points towards them getting a "dual" codex with anyone.
Nothing except logic, which I'll grant you may not be GW's strong suit.
But right now, Ynnari only have 3 units, all characters. Harlies only have 8 total units, 4 of which are characters and 2 share the vehicle kit.
Even if you put them in the same book, it would only consist of a dozen unit entries, 2 sets for WL traits & relics and 2 sets of Stratagems. That's a small book, but at least enough content overall.
If Harlies or Ynnari get separate books, neither would be a worthwhile amount of content to merit getting a book in the first place. Harlies might get their own Codex, but if Ynnari are not part of that book, it is unlikely they'll get one at all.
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Knights got codex with mighty two units which were basically no different to each other as tactical marine with missile launcher and lascannon are
Crimson wrote: This is bad nerf because it pretty muck kills pure Ynnari armies, but does little to cheesy tiny detachments of Yvraine + Reapers in Craftworld armies.
Thats isn't cheesy. A single unit shooting two times a turn is not a problem, even more when they need a HQ tax to do so and the rest of the SfD restrictions.
That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.
Um, Skitarii should never have gotten their own codex in the first place. It's all Admech.
Harlequins should never have received their own codex in 7th either. Prior to that codex, Harlies were a 1 unit entry in both the Eldar and DE codices.
Players shouldn't have to pay $40-$50 for the rules for less than a dozen units. THAT is the standard in which an "army" should merit it's own book.
Skitarii and Harlies are not whole armies in their own right, but fringe factions of larger forces. Ynnari are even less so. It anything, the rules for Ynnari would only be about a dozen pages long. Smaller than a White Dwarf. Yet GW will fill it will unneeded full and charge at least $30 for it. THAT is what should be discouraged.
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Problem with harlies was that it was 1 entry in 2codex. Ended with different harlequins. You know somethings bad when dark eldars were allying with ce if they wanted harlies. Now if codex is smaller it should be cheaper to compensate
There is zero reason to release codicies for armies with only 3 units, it's pointless and a waste of time and money. GW would still have the same publishing costs, so the book would still be sold for £30 or whatever, and then everyone would complain that they're paying so much money for 3 pages of rules.
Knight codex was cheaper and 3rd ed had 2 different prices depending on size so no it wouldn't not neccesarily cost same. Gw being gw they might but then again gw itself has opposite examples
Thats isn't cheesy. A single unit shooting two times a turn is not a problem, even more when they need a HQ tax to do so and the rest of the SfD restrictions.
Be that as it may, there is really no point of running a pure Ynnari army anymore.
I agree that this new rule has scalability problems. But the previous incarnation of the rule was toxic and slowed the game a ton.
But as others have said SoB have the problem with Acts of Faith. Is the problem when they give Army Rules that are so powerfull to a wholle faction. That they don't know how to balance them in a way that scalates with the size of the army and still remains usefull but not overpowered.
When the Soulburst is nerfed this hard, they should have at least compensated by letting the Ynnari keep the normal Aeldari special rules (Power from Pain, Battle Focus, etc. Not the Craftworld specific rules.)
The Eldar Craftworld traits are not amazing, Battle Focus is still meh. Ynnari will still soulburst at key times (yes, you will now have to plan better) but it will be less cheesy. Yvraine is still a great character, as is the Yncarne. You still have access to a wide variety of units in the same detachment and with points reductions for most Craftworld ones.
The downside is that to get access to strategems you need at least one Eldar detachment but that could simply be a Supreme Command one with a small Seer Council led by Eldrad (gain CP boosting ability warlord trait), give a second character the remnant of glory (ghosthelm to a spiritseer). Now you can use the strategms that are not Craftworld specific.
I'm tempted to play them today but want to give my Iyanden a go against their nemesis Kraken hivefleet.
Yeah, except that is not possible, in order to have any Ynnari, one of their 3 characters has to be warlord, which locks out CWE warlord traits and relics army wide
The Eldar Craftworld traits are not amazing, Battle Focus is still meh. Ynnari will still soulburst at key times (yes, you will now have to plan better) but it will be less cheesy. Yvraine is still a great character, as is the Yncarne. You still have access to a wide variety of units in the same detachment and with points reductions for most Craftworld ones.
The downside is that to get access to strategems you need at least one Eldar detachment but that could simply be a Supreme Command one with a small Seer Council led by Eldrad (gain CP boosting ability warlord trait), give a second character the remnant of glory (ghosthelm to a spiritseer). Now you can use the strategms that are not Craftworld specific.
I'm tempted to play them today but want to give my Iyanden a go against their nemesis Kraken hivefleet.
Yeah, except that is not possible, in order to have any Ynnari, one of their 3 characters has to be warlord, which locks out CWE warlord traits and relics army wide
Warlord traits, not relics. As long as you have a Craftworld detachment you can take a Craftworld relic.
Strength from Death is now terrible, sure you can run that one huge squad of Reapers that you want to shoot twice, but it will die turn 1 for very obvious reasons.
The Eldar Craftworld traits are not amazing, Battle Focus is still meh. Ynnari will still soulburst at key times (yes, you will now have to plan better) but it will be less cheesy. Yvraine is still a great character, as is the Yncarne. You still have access to a wide variety of units in the same detachment and with points reductions for most Craftworld ones.
The downside is that to get access to strategems you need at least one Eldar detachment but that could simply be a Supreme Command one with a small Seer Council led by Eldrad (gain CP boosting ability warlord trait), give a second character the remnant of glory (ghosthelm to a spiritseer). Now you can use the strategms that are not Craftworld specific.
I'm tempted to play them today but want to give my Iyanden a go against their nemesis Kraken hivefleet.
Yeah, except that is not possible, in order to have any Ynnari, one of their 3 characters has to be warlord, which locks out CWE warlord traits and relics army wide
Warlord traits, not relics. As long as you have a Craftworld detachment you can take a Craftworld relic.
Strength from Death is now terrible, sure you can run that one huge squad of Reapers that you want to shoot twice, but it will die turn 1 for very obvious reasons.
Might want to check pg122 in the codex, first paragraph where it talks about the requirements to take relics
You need a Ynnari WL to gain SfD. You need a CWEWL to gain access to traits AND relics. Since none of the Triumvirate are CWE, it is impossible to have both a Ynnari AND a CWE warlord.
Galef wrote: You need a Ynnari WL to gain SfD. You need a CWEWL to gain access to traits AND relics. Since none of the Triumvirate are CWE, it is impossible to have both a Ynnari AND a CWE warlord.
You don't get the free relic, but if you have a Craftworld detachment you can spend CP for the bonus relic.
Galef wrote: You need a Ynnari WL to gain SfD. You need a CWEWL to gain access to traits AND relics. Since none of the Triumvirate are CWE, it is impossible to have both a Ynnari AND a CWE warlord.
You don't get the free relic, but if you have a Craftworld detachment you can spend CP for the bonus relic.
Think this is one for YMDC, but as I read it, since it says you get an "extra" relic, it would require you to have one to begin with
The Eldar Craftworld traits are not amazing, Battle Focus is still meh. Ynnari will still soulburst at key times (yes, you will now have to plan better) but it will be less cheesy. Yvraine is still a great character, as is the Yncarne. You still have access to a wide variety of units in the same detachment and with points reductions for most Craftworld ones.
The downside is that to get access to strategems you need at least one Eldar detachment but that could simply be a Supreme Command one with a small Seer Council led by Eldrad (gain CP boosting ability warlord trait), give a second character the remnant of glory (ghosthelm to a spiritseer). Now you can use the strategms that are not Craftworld specific.
I'm tempted to play them today but want to give my Iyanden a go against their nemesis Kraken hivefleet.
It does not "kill" ynnari, it stops things like harlequin troupe spam ynnari, or dark reaper spam.
So yes ynnari has been mudered, oh the elfmanity the sailor moon eldar need to actually make a non spam list.
Just keep in mind Ynnari is all or nothing, either the entire army is Ynnari or none of it is, so you can't take a Ynnari detachment of say Yvraine and 10 reapers and then a CWE detachment and not lose Battle Focus etc. for SfD (which became a lot worse now obviously). You'd still get the CWE relics/traits but the CWE stuff would not benefit from Battle Focus.
Wayniac wrote: Just keep in mind Ynnari is all or nothing, either the entire army is Ynnari or none of it is, so you can't take a Ynnari detachment of say Yvraine and 10 reapers and then a CWE detachment and not lose Battle Focus etc. for SfD (which became a lot worse now obviously). You'd still get the CWE relics/traits but the CWE stuff would not benefit from Battle Focus.
Wayniac wrote: Just keep in mind Ynnari is all or nothing, either the entire army is Ynnari or none of it is, so you can't take a Ynnari detachment of say Yvraine and 10 reapers and then a CWE detachment and not lose Battle Focus etc. for SfD (which became a lot worse now obviously). You'd still get the CWE relics/traits but the CWE stuff would not benefit from Battle Focus.
None of this is correct. Ynnari is still per detachment so you can take a Ynnari Detachment in which the models benefit from SfD but lose access to Battle Focus and <Craftworld> traits and then take a pure <Craftworld> detachment that benefits from the trait and battle focus but not SfD. Additionally a Ynnari army never gets CWE relics or WL traits.
Wayniac wrote: Just keep in mind Ynnari is all or nothing, either the entire army is Ynnari or none of it is, so you can't take a Ynnari detachment of say Yvraine and 10 reapers and then a CWE detachment and not lose Battle Focus etc. for SfD (which became a lot worse now obviously). You'd still get the CWE relics/traits but the CWE stuff would not benefit from Battle Focus.
All of this is wrong.
Is it? I thought Ynnari had to be the entire army, did they change it in an FAQ? I was talking to someone about how you'd see a Ynnari detachment with 10 reapers and Yvraine after the nerf, and he pointed out that doesn't work because the whole army has to be Ynnari or nothing does.
One of the most competive if not the most competive tournament in finland was played out(you can't even get to the tournament without having performed well in tournaments for invitation or won qualification tournament). Winner had 2 ynnear detachments(shining spears and dark reapers) and couple more ynnead armies in top-6.
So at least here ynnear elements were still used though unsurprisingly mostly to buff few units.
Only 16 players but all players who tend to do well in tournaments. Not enough tournaments for 100 consistent top tournament players in Finland
which were basically no different to each other as tactical marine with missile launcher and lascannon are
