Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?

Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.

But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

Edit to change the title for clarity

Because it’s apparently a significant amount more content than an FAQ.

Um. Because GW isn’t a charity.

Because if you're good at something, you should never do it for free.

And GW is pretty good at selling things.

M.

Why aren't all the models free too?

That'd be so much easier...

Lord-celestent Putin wrote:
Why aren't all the models free too?

That'd be so much easier...

Only if they gave them to me painted and based

I get what he is saying... and I agree. Why isnt the book with the rebalanced points update free and the rest off the book a pay if you want the extra rules seperate. It should be. The yearly rebalance and points cost should be seperate and free. An easy free pdf to adjust things as codexes come out.

Why is it not Free ?

It's a printed book with new content.

Charging for rules has always seems like a really idiotic thing when its often the rules that help drive sales. Before Decurion was a thing you rarely saw tomb blades being bought or used but once 7th edition Necrons dropped those fugly bikes where sold out for weeks if not months. Sure you can sell a fancy book with lore, artwork, model pictures, rules, etc in it because a lot of people like having a book to reference/browse. But also allow veteran and newbie alike to download/print a PDF or EPUB file of the rules so they can easily start up a new army or just have all the rules they need to play the zoggin game. Its especially bad for younger players who don't have the funds to afford getting started with models and paint while also buying $100+ dollars of rules (not everyone wants to start off with a zogging space marine vs baddy space marine box set).

I really hope they release the point values for free and leave all the other goodies in there for people to buy if they want them.

Was Chapter Approved free in the first place?

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?

Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.

But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

TLDR : «why do I have to work to earn money ?! I want everything to be free ! I hate capitalism»

 godardc wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?

Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.

But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

TLDR : «why do I have to work to earn money ?! I want everything to be free ! I hate capitalism»

Not asking for everything to be free. Just don’t like paying for something twice aka rules in the same edition because they need adjusting. They should be a stand alone thing. I have no problem paying for something new if I like it. And in fact if you read my original post I said I will be standing in line to buy regardless.
I get it their a business I’m not trying to come off as entitled. I work hard for my money like I’m sure most on here do and I feel like I already paid for the rules handsomely this edition. Just My opinion but if I got to buy the rules again packaged with some other stuff I may or may not want so be it we all make descisions

This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?

Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.

But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

Apparently you missed the memo... here are the foot notes.


- 8th is a beta set of rules being sold as a retail edition so you the player can play test the game.
- Chapter approved is a content patch.
- The upgrades to the core game system, and update patches to individual units is just easier to distribute with the content patch.

That codex thing you may have paid for, ya rough draft of ideas, don't worry we will invalidate it by 2020 just in time for 9th. Until the invest in a binder and book bag, you will need them.

GW would like to take the time to thank you. You inquisitive tester you. Game on.

clownshoes wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?

Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.

But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

Apparently you missed the memo... here are the foot notes.


- 8th is a beta set of rules being sold as a retail edition so you the player can play test the game.
- Chapter approved is a content patch.
- The upgrades to the core game system, and update patches to individual units is just easier to distribute with the content patch.

That codex thing you may have paid for, ya rough draft of ideas, don't worry we will invalidate it by 2020 just in time for 9th. Until the invest in a binder and book bag, you will need them.

GW would like to take the time to thank you. You inquisitive tester you. Game on.

Hit the nail on the head I think. Thread can be closed now nothing left to see here.

Grimlineman wrote:

 godardc wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?

Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.

But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

TLDR : «why do I have to work to earn money ?! I want everything to be free ! I hate capitalism»

Not asking for everything to be free. Just don’t like paying for something twice aka rules in the same edition because they need adjusting.

Twice? Ha. Index->Codex->CA 2017
Then, if you're really lucky (Hi, Space marines!), next year's Codex & CA 2018. And CA 2019.

It costs for the same reason you have to BUY GW's catalog instead of them giving catalogs away for free.

Because GW still insists on living in the 90's.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

It's a balance patch. Nobody else makes you pay for balance patches. The new missions and stuff, sure, that can be a book you pay for, but adjustments to existing content should be free.

The other problem is book keeping and having to haul around multiple books just to play a friggin game. I'm not really a fan of it, and have always preferred games to get the rules right the first time so I don't have to constantly purchase fixes and add ons. Shadespire did it right, it's a solid and tight ruleset out of the gate, needed a minimal FAQ half of which was almost common sense stuff. 40k however is a constantly changing pile of mud and has always been so, this is why I don't like it and prefer their specialist games like Blood Bowl or Necromunda. However Necromunda is kind of irking me from the get go cause i'm already having to have a stack of two books just to play on 3d terrain. It's still not as bad as 40k has been in the past though.

I agree with the OP. I paid for the Space Marine Index, and then a month or two later had to shell out for the Space Marine Codex. To me, it feels like GW intentionally gouged me, and that killed my good faith.

As a consumer, I do expect that there is assurance of balance and stability when I buy rules,
OR that the balance and stability is a work in progress that gets updated frequently without additional fees,
OR that the rules are free.

I paid something like $80 for the Index and then again something like $80 for the codex. Let's assume that the Chapter Approved book is priced similarly (I don't know TBH), I will have paid $240 for Space Marine rules and points over a period of 6 months. That's $40 per month. It's too much.

Let's just ignore Sponge paying double the price for his index.

GW could have ignored all the player feedback for 8th and not bothered bringing out a "Chapter Approved" and then everybody would have had something else to complain about.

Because its a combined balance patch and some DLC?

FAQs are free resource - well you have to print them out but hey.

This is supposed to be a add on to the game as well as a Balancing tool. I am just glad its not something you have to have a smart phone or similar nonsense to use.

Sorcererbob wrote:
I agree with the OP. I paid for the Space Marine Index, and then a month or two later had to shell out for the Space Marine Codex. To me, it feels like GW intentionally gouged me, and that killed my good faith.

Then you're dumb. Or looking for things to complain about.
You KNEW the Index was temporary. We also KNEW that Codexes were going to be rushed out very quickly after 8th launched and common sense should have told you that Space Marines, being more popular than every other army combined would be one of the first.

If you didn't want to pay for the Index AND the Codex why did you not just wait till the Codex was out? No one was holding a gun to your minis and forcing you to buy an Index right off the bat. Don't act like you couldn't possibly have made an informed choice or jad some patience. A month or two of no games won't invalidate your entire hobby.

The idea that GW is FORCING you to buy all these books is laughable. Hey, heres an idea. Maybe have your group chip in and buy ONE copy of Chapter Approved to share. Note down then changes in pencil in your codex and then you don't need to have it on you at all times. You don't even need it for the new scenarios or deployments or anything like that because as you say, your just paying for the rules updates. Nothing else.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Because its a combined balance patch and some DLC?

FAQs are free resource - well you have to print them out but hey.

This is supposed to be a add on to the game as well as a Balancing tool. I am just glad its not something you have to have a smart phone or similar nonsense to use.

This is precisely why I would prefer a free Chapter Approved, ideally the balance pass should be as free from commercial imperatives as possible, I know this is GW so that is a nice dream. Still if it were free content there would be less reason to fiddle with stuff just for the sake of making the book look worthwhile..

 Sim-Life wrote:

Sorcererbob wrote:
I agree with the OP. I paid for the Space Marine Index, and then a month or two later had to shell out for the Space Marine Codex. To me, it feels like GW intentionally gouged me, and that killed my good faith.

Then you're dumb.

There's no need to make it personal; I'd appreciate it if you kept to the topic instead of name calling. I find your tone to be rather condescending too.

The intention from GW is that a player owns the books relevant to their army. It's on that basis that I'm making my reply, since my complaint is about GW's business practice.

The Codex dates weren't published when the Index was released. I bought the Index for the same reason as everyone else; I wanted to play the game using up to date rules and I was excited to play the new edition. The argument that I should have waited for the Codex is easy in hindsight. Imagine if I played Dark Eldar and had waited until I have a codex; I'd still be playing 7th. The frequency of updates and availability information at a point in time is GWs choice, not mine. The timing was a gimmick by GW to drive sales in my opinion.

I'm not forced to buy the content, but I enjoy the game. I want to support the developer so that they develop the game. But I don't like being gouged. Is that unreasonable?

Sorcererbob wrote:
I agree with the OP. I paid for the Space Marine Index, and then a month or two later had to shell out for the Space Marine Codex. To me, it feels like GW intentionally gouged me, and that killed my good faith.

I don't want to sound like an arsehole but you should have seen that coming. I deliberately didn't buy the Index because anyone and their dog could tell you that SMs were getting their codex very soon after release, and I'm fairly sure GW actually said that was the case.

Sorcererbob wrote:

I paid something like $80 for the Index and then again something like $80 for the codex. Let's assume that the Chapter Approved book is priced similarly (I don't know TBH), I will have paid $240 for Space Marine rules and points over a period of 6 months. That's $40 per month. It's too much.

What, you want them to give you printed books for free? The're a business, they've printed some books, and they're now offering them to you at a price that is profitable to them, like any other business would. And let's be clear, Chapter approved is not an FAQ, which they have been giving for free, as they should, and it is not the same as a patch to a video game, it's a set of additional rules you can opt to use if you want to buy the book.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Sorcererbob wrote:
I agree with the OP. I paid for the Space Marine Index, and then a month or two later had to shell out for the Space Marine Codex. To me, it feels like GW intentionally gouged me, and that killed my good faith.

I don't want to sound like an arsehole but you should have seen that coming. I deliberately didn't buy the Index because anyone and their dog could tell you that SMs were getting their codex very soon after release, and I'm fairly sure GW actually said that was the case.

Of course that means you don't have even complete space marine rules nevermind variant chapters. Albeit maybe you would take rather IG than other marines. IG is probably better soup partner than others. But even for standard marine you would be lacking rules.

What, you want them to give you printed books for free? The're a business, they've printed some books, and they're now offering them to you at a price that is profitable to them, like any other business would. And let's be clear, Chapter approved is not an FAQ, which they have been giving for free, as they should, and it is not the same as a patch to a video game, it's a set of additional rules you can opt to use if you want to buy the book.

No but they could give the errata part for free, like many companies do, and get people by on the merit of useful stuff in there rather than mandatory errata. There's no "additional" about chapter approved if you play with points. It's mandatory.

tneva82 wrote:
Of course that means you don't have even complete space marine rules nevermind variant chapters. Albeit maybe you would take rather IG than other marines. IG is probably better soup partner than others. But even for standard marine you would be lacking rules.

Or, even stranger, I could just play an army of vanilla marines without soup. Shock horror I know.

tneva82 wrote:
No but they could give the errata part for free, like many companies do, and get people buy on the merit of useful stuff in there rather than mandatory errata. There's no "additional" about chapter approved if you play with points. It's mandatory.

It's mandatory if the people you play with force you to play with it. Or you could just say to your friends, "hey, I don't have chapter approved, can we just play without using it?" Or you could, even worse (/s), play with PL.

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?

Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.

But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

i mean i'm not suggesting it, nor would i condone it, but there are ways to get it free.

You still pretty much need to buy core rules, codex, index if you want to run things like chaos lords on bike or mount, an example in almost every codex, and CA. I never bought a book because i am waiting for the rules to get compiled in a nice easy format, or to just use the one page freeware rules and also horus heresy. Perks of being a power armoured player i can get new blood with one page rules. I cant with a stack of 40-50 usd books before they start buying models paint etc.

The better question would be why balancing fixes are in chapter approved and not available for free without it.

I mean ... Battlescribe??

grouchoben wrote:
I mean ... Battlescribe??

Not replacement to codex on it's own.

A fix for bad rules should be free. It was GW who screwed up in the first place. I already paid once for an update (codex), why should I pay again ?

I've gotta say I also think the errata should be free, I'm not talking about printed books or additional content, but the amended rules brought in for the sake of balance, could be a nice cheap pdf.
Surely the occasional rules update wouldn't cost GW much to produce, and would certainly be covered by the initial rules cost and the spike in people buying flavour of the month models

How dare you ask a MINIATURES company to release a patch-like BOOK for free? Unacceptable!

Tech-priest, you can take this one to the foundries!

Chapter Approved is basically a patch that tries to fix a flawed product. If general rules/indexes/codexes were well written there would be no need of something like Chapter Approved to fix GW mistakes. That's why I think it should be free, like the FAQ GW released in the previous months.

Additional content in that book is just the excuse that allows GW to sell Chapter Approved, I don't know how many people would buy it without the fixes.

Probably not many, hence the extra content to increase "value".

Carry around another book?

Maybe you're carrying around the special limited edition version that's made out of adamantium, but the one I'm ordering is paper, which is pretty easy to size-adjust so you can have just the bits you want.

p5freak wrote:
A fix for bad rules should be free. It was GW who screwed up in the first place. I already paid once for an update (codex), why should I pay again ?

I agree with you to a point, however was it a screw up or was it a development phase, they have seen certain units need a bump and have had there playtest team (hahahahah JK they dont have one) test the new rules for a more balanced and enjoyable 40k.

Ok serial now, things cost money and if this is anything like the AOS generals handbook its worth the cost.

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is)

You’ve answered your own question here. People are willing to pay for it, so they’re selling it. End.

Because it's an actual supplemental book. Now the question will be if it's reasonably priced like GH2017 was, or if it will be artificially more expensive because there are more 40k players so GW can get away with charging more.

Why does this commercial business expect me to pay for the product they've manufactured and distributed? Mind-boggling.

Do we really have to go thru this for yet another decade? (Someone complains about this every time they do a chapter approved.)

Look, it's a business, they can charge what they want.

Sorcererbob wrote:
I agree with the OP. I paid for the Space Marine Index, and then a month or two later had to shell out for the Space Marine Codex. To me, it feels like GW intentionally gouged me, and that killed my good faith.

As a consumer, I do expect that there is assurance of balance and stability when I buy rules,
OR that the balance and stability is a work in progress that gets updated frequently without additional fees,
OR that the rules are free.

I paid something like $80 for the Index and then again something like $80 for the codex. Let's assume that the Chapter Approved book is priced similarly (I don't know TBH), I will have paid $240 for Space Marine rules and points over a period of 6 months. That's $40 per month. It's too much.

That's on you buying the Index and Codex. GW made it clear they were "get you by" lists until codices came out, and Space Marines were one of the first books announced and the first book released.

Expect a price point of $35 USD for the Chapter Approved book(that's how much the General's Handbook for AoS is). It's softback but not a small book by any means.

Nazrak wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is)

You’ve answered your own question here. People are willing to pay for it, so they’re selling it. End.

Corrode wrote:Why does this commercial business expect me to pay for the product they've manufactured and distributed? Mind-boggling.

sfshilo wrote:Do we really have to go thru this for yet another decade? (Someone complains about this every time they do a chapter approved.)

Look, it's a business, they can charge what they want.

I think there is room for debate with valid arguments on either side in this case. Comments like these do not really add to that debate but do perhaps show why this forum has a reputation for rather a high noise to signal ratio. Perhaps it is a case that GW's vibe attracts their tribe idk.

I disagree.

GW is obviously charging money for rules because it costs them money to produce them.

Most other companies don't charge money for their rules, but get them payed indirectly from selling their product.

It's just a business decision GW has made for unknown reasons. They could also make the decision to make their models out of cheese instead of plastic, because they can do whatever the hell they want until they go bankrupt.

I think there is room for debate with valid arguments on either side in this case. Comments like these do not really add to that debate but do perhaps show why this forum has a reputation for rather a high noise to signal ratio. Perhaps it is a case that GW's vibe attracts their tribe idk.

Chapter approved started as a white dwarf section in the early aughts (Notice you had to BUY white dwarf). They would then bundle that together and sell it at a fair market price periodically in paperback.

Warhammer-Online and the ITC forums/groups have periodic articles and rules updates (Notice how this is free). They are now bundling those together to sell it at a fair market price in both print and digital form.

Someone complains about this every time they do it going back to 2001, most of us are wondering why people are surprised by this. We are even more surprised that the content is mostly free now online or sold at a reduced price.

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?
Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.
But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

It costs money to design layout and have it printed and distribution and overhead costs as well as an expected profit margin.
You have an issue with this of all things?

Plus there is a bit of a precedent:



Yeah, back in the dark ages of 2001 and the last couple years after, we had to pay money for each of them.

I would also say looking back: they were well worth it at the time so I expect good things out of this new book.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

I think we'll have to wait to at least see what's contained within Chapter Approved before we can decide for sure if it's worth the cost or not. People have high expectations, but since we won't know for sure what will be inside until we have copies of it out, we'll never know for sure.

 Corrode wrote:
Why does this commercial business expect me to pay for the product they've manufactured and distributed? Mind-boggling.

Amen

I believe too that the balance uptdate part of Chapter Approve should be free. But, if they launch at last the army builder for 40k like with AoS, you won't even need Chapter Approved for the new point costs.

As I play in a club, we have agree to only buy one chapter approved for the club. Is enough for all of us.

As many people said that in 8th you need a ton of books to play, thats only if you have old models. I can play my Chaos Force only from the Chaos Space Marines Codex without a problem.
I'm lucky that I have no "Index only" options.

Like it or not, this is why people pirate stuff. Having to pay for needed balance changes (if they aren't released as free PDF's alongside the book) is a good way to incentivize piracy, particularly when if they don't care about stuff like a Land Raider VDR or missions that (if past editions are anything to go by) very few will ever really use or care about.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

Except the windows update is a piece of software, this is a piece of hardware.

 Talizvar wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?
Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.
But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

It costs money to design layout and have it printed and distribution and overhead costs as well as an expected profit margin.
You have an issue with this of all things?

Plus there is a bit of a precedent:



Yeah, back in the dark ages of 2001 and the last couple years after, we had to pay money for each of them.

I would also say looking back: they were well worth it at the time so I expect good things out of this new book.

That interesting I only been playing a couple years so I didn't know this history.
And I guess I should have explained things better in my OP I'm not asking for a free Chapter approved physical book. I would just like to see the rules/stats I already paid 80 dollars(between index and codex even more if you count rule book) for just a couple months ago be updated
in a way that the cost to them is min (as in online pdf as others have mentioned) and free for me sine I already paid this edtion. But from a company stand point I realize this brings in zero additional revenue.

I see both sides of the debate and I'm sorry some take it so personal like my question was a direct insult at them. I'm excited to see what comes in the book although I feel like its packaged to re-sell me something I already bought I will give it a chance.

This is my first and last time starting a thread like this.

Grimlineman wrote:

This is my first and last time starting a thread like this.

Welcome to Dakka.

So if you buy the digital version of the BRB or Codex, do they go back and update any of that material to reflect the Chapter Approved declarations?

M.

 Jidmah wrote:
The better question would be why balancing fixes are in chapter approved and not available for free without it.

QFT.

New rules, new missions, etc... being charged, ok. But point changes should be a free pdf. Who knows, maybe it'll be.

Personal opinion: the points changes should be made available free. Everything else in the book is fair game to charge money for. And ultimately, GW has already set the precedent for updated points being free. Look at document that came out with points for the Primaris Space Marine units.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Personal opinion: the points changes should be made available free. Everything else in the book is fair game to charge money for. And ultimately, GW has already set the precedent for updated points being free. Look at document that came out with points for the Primaris Space Marine units.

Agreed. Points changes should be made free, even if it is just the point deltas rather than full points.

I wonder, would there be any legal issue (other than the usual "you can sue anyone for anything to bleed you dry" issue) of posting the points deltas (e.g. saying X is +3 points) so that you'd need the original book anyway?

Well, they did update 6th edition supplement ebooks to 7th edition... not for the better, but they did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Personal opinion: the points changes should be made available free. Everything else in the book is fair game to charge money for. And ultimately, GW has already set the precedent for updated points being free. Look at document that came out with points for the Primaris Space Marine units.

Agreed. Points changes should be made free, even if it is just the point deltas rather than full points.

I wonder, would there be any legal issue (other than the usual "you can sue anyone for anything to bleed you dry" issue) of posting the points deltas (e.g. saying X is +3 points) so that you'd need the original book anyway?

There probably is, but considering that you can get pretty much any 8th edition dataslate via google or bing image search, I think they have toned down a bit on their "Sue all the people!"-strategy.

If they reissued the BRB, Index and/or Codex with the extra content from FAQ and chapter approved and gave you a discount for returning your old one to them, then that would be cool. Even it's it's only 10% off, some people would take that. It might also mean people actually going into a Games Workshop to exchange it and they got to be "green" and recycle the old books. GW will still make money from it, look generous/sympathetic to their customers, environmentally friendly and would get people to engage their staff in their shops or online (which leads to extra sales).

Also they could produce stickers (for a small price in store, free PDF printable online, or even in White Dwarf) so that you can amend your own BRB or Codex. I'm sure they used to do something similar in the past.

Aside from that, any errata should be issued for free in a PDF version, so one can print them off and take them if required.

What they should not do is what they do currently...
You need a BRB, BRB FAQ, index, index FAQ, Codex, Codex FAQ, Chapter Approved.

It should just be BRB 8.1 and Codex 8.1 (or DataCards 8.1). Chapter Approved could then be just for fluff, painting schemes, extra objectives, game types, but not compulsory. You should feel like you're missing out for not buying it, but not actively penalized by GW!

If they keep producing updates and errata, the only timean editions rules are "stable" is when that edition has been replaced by the next one and GW stop supporting it.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

Except the windows update is a piece of software, this is a piece of hardware.

It didn't need to be hardware - that was their decision. This could easily be a free downloadable PDF or handled just like an errata. It is essentially an errata. GW just takes this opportunity to make money. Which is fine - they can do whatever they want. It's just very disingenuous to charge people for something that should have been included in their original release.

Points changes, balance passes, and clarifications should be free.

I wouldn't complain if the new stuff was free, but I'm not fussed if they charge for it. I'll hold wait and see if they charge a more standard exorbitant amount or its a fair price for the content.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

Except the windows update is a piece of software, this is a piece of hardware.

It's hardware cause gw opted so. On same logic ms could put updates on dvd @50 euro


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TarkinLarson wrote:
If they reissued the BRB, Index and/or Codex with the extra content from FAQ and chapter approved and gave you a discount for returning your old one to them, then that would be cool. Even it's it's only 10% off, some people would take that. It might also mean people actually going into a Games Workshop to exchange it and they got to be "green" and recycle the old books. GW will still make money from it, look generous/sympathetic to their customers, environmentally friendly and would get people to engage their staff in their shops or online (which leads to extra sales).

I could go for that. Up to date book over pile of erratas. Especially as gw didn't stick with point changes only

Grimlineman wrote:
That interesting I only been playing a couple years so I didn't know this history.
And I guess I should have explained things better in my OP I'm not asking for a free Chapter approved physical book. I would just like to see the rules/stats I already paid 80 dollars(between index and codex even more if you count rule book) for just a couple months ago be updated
in a way that the cost to them is min (as in online pdf as others have mentioned) and free for me sine I already paid this edtion. But from a company stand point I realize this brings in zero additional revenue.
I see both sides of the debate and I'm sorry some take it so personal like my question was a direct insult at them. I'm excited to see what comes in the book although I feel like its packaged to re-sell me something I already bought I will give it a chance.
This is my first and last time starting a thread like this.

Hey, do not get upset with the replies!
It may sound personal but I suspect it is not so much.
It was a valid observation and as stated, you were not aware of the rather large history of GW and it's 40k game.

I believe the Codex books get updated in ebook and epub form, correct me if I am wrong: so some of your concerns are addressed there.
The FAQ's have been updated at an "insane" pace compared to their prior publication habits.
It used to be occasional updates would come to us in White Dwarf.
They also became a place for major changes to the rules to be published.
8th is moving along as fast as 3rd edition felt so long ago.

Chapter approved was a way to bring all those updates together into one book.
Going from past memory, I liked those publications and in light of the changes lately, I would expect them to be pretty good.

tneva82 wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

Except the windows update is a piece of software, this is a piece of hardware.

It's hardware cause gw opted so. On same logic ms could put updates on dvd @50 euro

Windows Update is free because it includes fixing security issues with real-world financial implications, which affect a gigantic user base of both consumers and commercial clients. Microsoft wouldn't get away with charging for it because the minute something like WannaCry happened and they told big businesses "you'll need to pay us €50 per install to fix this" they'd be sued into oblivion.

Video game patches exist as an ongoing service because consumers expect them, and in the age of e-sports companies fighting for market share of the kind of highly competitive games which get visibility in that space have a vested interest in being seen to apply fixes and balance changes. Alternatively the cost of producing them may be offset - games which see frequent updates like WoW tend to be on subscription models, or you see pairing of FLC and DLC, where the purchasers of DLC fund the provision of FLC.

It's not really a fair comparison to luxury goods in a niche hobby. The expectations of "the community" are impossible to meet anyway - simultaneously GW fix everything faster and engage more with customers, and yet when they do those things they're accused of not having gotten it right the first time, and it should never have needed fixing in the first place, and so on. And of course they should definitely never, ever charge for anything. I'm surprised they bother at all.

On the same token Corrode - should they also charge for erratas? You make a pretty good case for charging for everything. Including basic updates to rules that should have been worked out in the supposed "play testing" phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:
On the same token Corrode - should they also charge for erratas? You make a pretty good case for charging for everything. Including basic updates to rules that should have been worked out in the supposed "play testing" phase.

For errata specifically, no - because those are supposedly things which were wrong with the book in its printed form, like e.g. failing to include points costs for Ironclad Assault Launchers. In that case you're correcting a fault with the product as shipped vs. the product as intended, no different than if you'd sold someone a red chair when they ordered a green one, or missing a part. FAQs fall into a similar area where they're clarifying something in the original product. In any case, GW have been more responsive than they ever have before in providing FAQ/errata free of charge. On the other hand Chapter Approved is a new product with more in it than just some revised points costs - at which point it's reasonable to charge for it.

Errata should be released for free. The dataslates for all the units should be released for free. The dataslates should be updated regularly with the errata changes to any of the rules wording.

The free rules should be playable for free when you buy a box of models.

Points are in a codex you have to pay for. The extra wargear options not on the dataslates are in the codex. Point adjustments being something you have to buy in Chapter Approved is fine because you had no access to points without going through the pay wall anyway.

 Corrode wrote:

Windows Update is free because it includes fixing security issues with real-world financial implications, which affect a gigantic user base of both consumers and commercial clients. Microsoft wouldn't get away with charging for it because the minute something like WannaCry happened and they told big businesses "you'll need to pay us €50 per install to fix this" they'd be sued into oblivion..

And microsoft produces luxury product not essential. You don\t NEED any of their products to run a computer. Customers could just as well pick up free option so it's not like m$ would be black mailing.

And as for chapter approved having new stuff and thus can be charged yes charge for new stuff but these are bugs in your product you are then charging more for fixes. Which are pretty much mandatory. The new stuff could be 100% utter useless garbage and it would still sell as there's not much choice for players. It's pay or don't play in any leagues, tournaments, FLGS's etc. For many their models would become useless book weights without buying the errata.

Hrm, for lots of purposes, Microsoft is pretty mandatory Particularly anything business related. There's a reason no competent business uses Open Office instead of MS office programs like Excel, and why basically nobody uses Macs in a business environment outside of a few small programming and graphics niches. Linux remains the domain of IT departments almost exclusively. Most any consumer computer people will buy will be running MS software, not alternatives, except those that want to look trendy and spend twice as much for the same hardware to get a sleeker looking plastic bevel screen with a fruit logo. Theoretically MS may not be necessary, but as a practical matter, it is necessary for the overwhelmingly vast majority of users

New content you should pay for if it's in a book format.

But rules updates and point changes should be free, as a part of the errata they publish. Since you need this to play. And you need a codex, because it has your stratagems. So now we'll get back to needing 2 books at minimum to play your army. That becomes unwieldy.

I think the points adjustments should be a free release, but the rest of it has a fair bit of work put into it. Stratagems, rules, apoc updates, etc, it's a decent supplement.

But hell, is it $50? The indexes were only around $20, and had complete rulesets for multiple armies.

It will probably cost like the General's Handbook, so 35$, 25€ and... I don't know how many pounds.

 Lance845 wrote:
Errata should be released for free. The dataslates for all the units should be released for free. The dataslates should be updated regularly with the errata changes to any of the rules wording.

The free rules should be playable for free when you buy a box of models.

Points are in a codex you have to pay for. The extra wargear options not on the dataslates are in the codex. Point adjustments being something you have to buy in Chapter Approved is fine because you had no access to points without going through the pay wall anyway.

I bought a Russ box and it had the data sheet for it at the back of the assembly instruction - is that not normal?

M.

 Infantryman wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Errata should be released for free. The dataslates for all the units should be released for free. The dataslates should be updated regularly with the errata changes to any of the rules wording.

The free rules should be playable for free when you buy a box of models.

Points are in a codex you have to pay for. The extra wargear options not on the dataslates are in the codex. Point adjustments being something you have to buy in Chapter Approved is fine because you had no access to points without going through the pay wall anyway.

I bought a Russ box and it had the data sheet for it at the back of the assembly instruction - is that not normal?

M.

GW has been reboxing the 40K line to include the datasheets. Thats why product keeps going out of stock while its being reboxed.

I could see the points adjustment being free but new rules/ lore should cost money. Also if all you want from it is points just simply wait for battle scribe to update points then you won't have to pay for it or just photocopy a friends.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

I think this is the most salient point, and the one I agree with most wholeheartedly. Chapter Approved really is functionally a patch.

I think the appropriate thing to do would be to give away the PDF for free, and sell the paper copies to people who prefer those, since of course there were manufacturing costs.

The whole point of stuff like Chapter Approved, and the rules in general, is to move product, and the product is space marines warhammer 40k models. Adding a needless paywall probably hurts the bottom lime more than it helps. Apparently all of these people screaming about how crazy it would be for a business to give anything away for free are unaware of the concept of a loss leader, which is pretty damn ironic a few days before Black Friday.

They should PDF the points changes, and post that. I can see charging for a bunch of Traits and Stratagems and missions. I may wish the Traits and Stratagems were released free, but I can understand that.

THe point changes, though, would set great precedent on GW supporting balance without always holding out their hands.

 Ouze wrote:
The whole point of stuff like Chapter Approved, and the rules in general, is to move product, and the product is space marines warhammer 40k models. Adding a needless paywall probably hurts the bottom lime more than it helps. Apparently all of these people screaming about how crazy it would be for a business to give anything away for free are unaware of the concept of a loss leader, which is pretty damn ironic a few days before Black Friday.

GW seems to be running on the idea that customers are limited on number of ITEMS they buy and not money they spend. So they figure "let's see. If we can force players to buy book that's mandatory for 30$ we get 30$ more per player" forgetting that 30$ is 30$ less they spend on say miniatures. And can even result in people buying LESS as they are less interested in playing in public events(tournaments, leagues, pick up games in FLGS) and thus are less interested in buying more units as well.

I have never been so excited about a game release that I have no intention of buying!

 Ouze wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
This stuff costs money and time to produce. Why would it be free?

For the same reason that you don't pay for a windows update.

I think this is the most salient point, and the one I agree with most wholeheartedly. Chapter Approved really is functionally a patch.

I think the appropriate thing to do would be to give away the PDF for free, and sell the paper copies to people who prefer those, since of course there were manufacturing costs.

The whole point of stuff like Chapter Approved, and the rules in general, is to move product, and the product is space marines warhammer 40k models. Adding a needless paywall probably hurts the bottom lime more than it helps. Apparently all of these people screaming about how crazy it would be for a business to give anything away for free are unaware of the concept of a loss leader, which is pretty damn ironic a few days before Black Friday.

The problem with this argument is that it ignores a few things:
1) We know GW is in the process of doing an army builder that will be free online, like the Warscroll Builder for Age of Sigmar. It's not an actual substitute for a Codex like AoS has, but it's something that we know is underway and will depend on completion of the codices.
2) They've already put points up for some units for free online.

I expect points tweaks to be in FAQs for the indices, but nothing more.

Not sure how them releasing a couple of units for free is ignoring my point, which is that they should give this entire book away for free digitally and at a minor cost for print. If anything, them doing so is conceding that I'm right on principle and they just haven't gone to the same degree.

So far as some future project, well, that's a future project and this is now so I have to form an opinion based on the facts as they lay, not as they might be at some undetermined future date.


Selling some new minor rules and rulebook and codex patches is essentially an EA move. How well loved is EA? As I said, I think a much better play would be to release the rules and mechanics as a free PDF, and then sell the book - maybe include some art and lore as well to add value. The patches to remedy issues in the game really shouldn't be a revenue driving vehicle. Selling these poorly written and playtested books is a sucker's business and breeds more resentment than enthusiasm.

The rulebooks exist to move models, and they should be geared to do exactly that.

 Ouze wrote:
Not sure how them releasing a couple of units for free is ignoring my point, which is that they should give this entire book away for free digitally and at a minor cost for print. If anything, them doing so is conceding that I'm right on principle and they just haven't gone to the same degree.

The point that you seem to be missing is this:
The entire book is not points. It's not $35 for points and Apocalypse blurbs and the VDR rules. You're looking at something probably around 170-180 pages.
Points are, if the General's Handbook is anything to go by(which it likely is since that's the price point and other mechanics that they've said this Chapter Approved matches), likely going to be around 24-30 pages. It's just tables like that download I linked since the models themselves are intended to have the rules within the boxes.

I get that the points and stuff should be free. They very likely will be. Once the updated points hit in General's Handbook, they were put on the Warscroll Builder app as well.

So far as some future project, well, that's a future project and this is now so I have to form an opinion based on the facts as they lay, not as they might be at some undetermined future date.

Then I have to form an opinion based on the facts that people don't fething read the Community blurbs or bother to ask people who have experience with the General's Handbook for their thoughts as to what to expect. There's a whole forum here that you can ask.

Selling some new minor rules and rulebook and codex patches is essentially an EA move. How well loved is EA? As I said, I think a much better play would be to release the rules and mechanics as a free PDF, and then sell the book - maybe include some art and lore as well to add value. The patches to remedy issues in the game really shouldn't be a revenue driving vehicle. Selling these poorly written and playtested books is a sucker's business and breeds more resentment than enthusiasm.

The rulebooks exist to move models, and they should be geared to do exactly that.

EA, like GW, could give away a box labeled "FREE PUPPIES" and people would bitch about the fact that they have to pay for vet bills or that they like cats better.

Right now? People are throwing a hissy fit because they might have to pay to get points updates. Oh noes!

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, for lots of purposes, Microsoft is pretty mandatory Particularly anything business related. There's a reason no competent business uses Open Office instead of MS office programs like Excel, and why basically nobody uses Macs in a business environment outside of a few small programming and graphics niches. Linux remains the domain of IT departments almost exclusively. Most any consumer computer people will buy will be running MS software, not alternatives, except those that want to look trendy and spend twice as much for the same hardware to get a sleeker looking plastic bevel screen with a fruit logo. Theoretically MS may not be necessary, but as a practical matter, it is necessary for the overwhelmingly vast majority of users

underlined for hilarity. I grew up an currently live in the Silicon Valley (San jo) and hate everything with that fruit logo. At school we had them shoved down our throats, my dad asked me what kind of computer we should get, I said "anything but that Apple crap". That was 1989.


Anyway back on topic, I'm looking forward to ChapApp and the new stuff in it. If it has balance related stuff that's just whipped cream on top of the additions to the game.

Chapter approved factions that are getting rules is finally shown. Literally not a single codex update, its fething ALMOST nothing. Just Index 1.5 to pick the pockets of the factions without codices yet.

Disgusting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GK not getting True Grit is a slap in the face.

It seemed like ages ago that 8th edition was going to be this new streamlined game which would be easy for new players to pick up because they wouldn't need to buy 3 books to play...

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
It seemed like ages ago that 8th edition was going to be this new streamlined game which would be easy for new players to pick up because they wouldn't need to buy 3 books to play...

To be fair, you don't - you can use the free rules and a Codex.

M.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Personal opinion: the points changes should be made available free. Everything else in the book is fair game to charge money for. And ultimately, GW has already set the precedent for updated points being free. Look at document that came out with points for the Primaris Space Marine units.

Agreed. Points changes should be made free, even if it is just the point deltas rather than full points.

I wonder, would there be any legal issue (other than the usual "you can sue anyone for anything to bleed you dry" issue) of posting the points deltas (e.g. saying X is +3 points) so that you'd need the original book anyway?

People have already been posting the rumored stuff, so I really doubt there is a good legal reason to say they can't.

All in all, I am going to get Chapter Approved. I really hope the new terrain rules make my Crimson Fists actually be able to shine. If we can start busting apart ruins and whatnot, yay for us. Though I don't know why we would since we ignore cover. Oops...

GW has been encouraging Power Levels and Open Play for all their products in 8th. Matched Play is only one way to play a game now. Stick with Power Levels and you don't have to buy this book. Simple as that.

I personally don't play Power Levels. Compared to the nightmare of 7th edition gaming using a 6th edition codex, I welcome these frequent updates.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
GW has been encouraging Power Levels and Open Play for all their products in 8th. Matched Play is only one way to play a game now. Stick with Power Levels and you don't have to buy this book. Simple as that.

I personally don't play Power Levels. Compared to the nightmare of 7th edition gaming using a 6th edition codex, I welcome these frequent updates.

Power level isn't that bad for a pick up game, but even then, I have my lists planned way in advance (tailoring is pretty much verboten in my group).

I, too, welcome these changes being made available. So far, from the leaks, I am coming out ahead on points (not sure what I am going to do with 30 pts though).

 Quickjager wrote:
Chapter approved factions that are getting rules is finally shown. Literally not a single codex update, its fething ALMOST nothing. Just Index 1.5 to pick the pockets of the factions without codices yet.

Disgusting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GK not getting True Grit is a slap in the face.

Well you were expecting new rules for existing codex? Point updates are coming for codexes. What more you were expecting? New strategems and traits for existing codexes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
It seemed like ages ago that 8th edition was going to be this new streamlined game which would be easy for new players to pick up because they wouldn't need to buy 3 books to play...

What made you think like that in the first place? Rulebook, 1+(realistically at least 2+) codexes, maybe index for a while and then we heard chapter approved book long time ago so we knew we would have to carry 1 more book per each year. That much was known from the get-go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Infantryman wrote:

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
It seemed like ages ago that 8th edition was going to be this new streamlined game which would be easy for new players to pick up because they wouldn't need to buy 3 books to play...

To be fair, you don't - you can use the free rules and a Codex.

M.

Plus 1 mandatory chapter approved per year so from now on minimum is 2 book(assuming you gimp yourself by having just 1 faction or are orks/necrons/tau) and year later minimum 3 books. Then 4 books, 5...

If it's anything like the General's Handbook, it's worth the money just for new scenarios and a few of the updates for armies that are missing some.
If your just buying the book for points updates, you will feel disappointed.

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
It seemed like ages ago that 8th edition was going to be this new streamlined game which would be easy for new players to pick up because they wouldn't need to buy 3 books to play...

I "think" you do not need the "Chapter Approved".
You still can make do with the BRB and your Codex and some FAQ's printed out for free.

I agree that its ok to pay for new content, but rule and point updates should be free.

Just consider the rules and point updates a free bonus when you buy the book

Surely several photos and summaries of the point changes will be online within a week of the book releasing.

If it's only the point values you care about than surely someone in your group will have the book and you can just take a quick photo of the point summary for your faction?

I think the point changes are fundamental errata and should be availiable for free. Everything else in the book like VDR, Warzones, Planetsrike, Stronghold Assault, Campaign rules etc is justifiably a supplement and will never be free.

Fixed book price law? Or something like this.

This can't be serious?

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Surely several photos and summaries of the point changes will be online within a week of the book releasing.

They just got leaked. Now no one has to buy anything!

 Sim-Life wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Surely several photos and summaries of the point changes will be online within a week of the book releasing.

They just got leaked. Now no one has to buy anything!

Where at?

 Blacksails wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Surely several photos and summaries of the point changes will be online within a week of the book releasing.

They just got leaked. Now no one has to buy anything!

Where at?

Rumor thread page 23. Or any of the faction relevant tactics threads.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Surely several photos and summaries of the point changes will be online within a week of the book releasing.

They just got leaked. Now no one has to buy anything!

Where at?

Rumor thread page 23. Or any of the faction relevant tactics threads.

Cheers, I'll check it out.

 Blacksails wrote:

Where at?

Links from other thread:

 pretre wrote:

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795083_2041527996093002_4343923057556379106_n.jpg?oh=2c29c20f8b996abd564748b650f53e71&oe=5A94845A
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23844509_2041528116092990_5555943864990828782_n.jpg?oh=06318b1eca446cfc947311eae34540ab&oe=5AA44BDE
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23755788_2041528222759646_7738037991282113762_n.jpg?oh=eb14e666948aa469763d245344e28900&oe=5A9C4032
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23905296_2041528309426304_4628805335984689396_n.jpg?oh=8fb96b437be50b6dc785e17586cfecfb&oe=5AA49892
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23843183_2041528352759633_979566142331479243_n.jpg?oh=898f3f53f4cacf026a5ec3672dc40cf4&oe=5A8AA780
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23794997_2041528466092955_8817430083567018412_n.jpg?oh=26891af977f320be878ea9d471cf3944&oe=5AD3ADED
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795500_2041528629426272_1254081872999303629_n.jpg?oh=b949b90236a928097eb4413ea234dced&oe=5A9E0F22
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795544_2041528726092929_4227064337683463470_n.jpg?oh=581c6e0fda195b0521e7cf80b2ba7c7f&oe=5AD768CF

Source: FTGT Evan on FB

Is this where I make a joke that it turns out they weren't worth money for Grey Knights anyway?

 Cream Tea wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Where at?

Links from other thread:

 pretre wrote:

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795083_2041527996093002_4343923057556379106_n.jpg?oh=2c29c20f8b996abd564748b650f53e71&oe=5A94845A
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23844509_2041528116092990_5555943864990828782_n.jpg?oh=06318b1eca446cfc947311eae34540ab&oe=5AA44BDE
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23755788_2041528222759646_7738037991282113762_n.jpg?oh=eb14e666948aa469763d245344e28900&oe=5A9C4032
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23905296_2041528309426304_4628805335984689396_n.jpg?oh=8fb96b437be50b6dc785e17586cfecfb&oe=5AA49892
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23843183_2041528352759633_979566142331479243_n.jpg?oh=898f3f53f4cacf026a5ec3672dc40cf4&oe=5A8AA780
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23794997_2041528466092955_8817430083567018412_n.jpg?oh=26891af977f320be878ea9d471cf3944&oe=5AD3ADED
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795500_2041528629426272_1254081872999303629_n.jpg?oh=b949b90236a928097eb4413ea234dced&oe=5A9E0F22
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795544_2041528726092929_4227064337683463470_n.jpg?oh=581c6e0fda195b0521e7cf80b2ba7c7f&oe=5AD768CF

Source: FTGT Evan on FB

Hm. Conscripts would then be the same price as Guardsmen.

Also...why the heck is the Conquerer still in the game? Its gimmick isn't relevant anymore, is it?

M.

 Infantryman wrote:


Also...why the heck is the Conquerer still in the game? Its gimmick isn't relevant anymore, is it?

M.

Half the range of the normal battlecannon but a co-axial autocannon, so more dakka. (this update standardises its cost with the GW Leman Russ so its 10 points more than standard for an extra autocannon)

WatcherZero wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:


Also...why the heck is the Conquerer still in the game? Its gimmick isn't relevant anymore, is it?

M.

Half the range of the normal battlecannon but a co-axial autocannon, so more dakka. (this update standardises its cost with the GW Leman Russ so its 10 points more than standard for an extra autocannon)

Hm. I seem to remember it being a coax heavy stubber but I'm probably wrong.

Back in "the day" it was supposed to be Heavy, so you could still move and shoot (twice!) with it, even if it was a weaker and smaller blast. Loved the idea, but it was crazy overcosted I think.

Now the Conquerer turret is OOP at Forgeworld...

M.

Not sure what frack people are smoking who say "because nothing isn't free." Yes, fixing your product usually is. If I buy anything and it's defective and requires an update to fix companies don't charge, how many firmware updates have you paid for any electronic you have? How many drivers have you paid for on your pc?

Danny slag wrote:
Not sure what frack people are smoking who say "because nothing isn't free." Yes, fixing your product usually is. If I buy anything and it's defective and requires an update to fix companies don't charge, how many firmware updates have you paid for any electronic you have? How many drivers have you paid for on your pc?

That depends. You want to run IBM? You pay through the nose. You want software as a service? You pay monthly.

This product isn't defective even if you wish it so.

I mean... nobody has to pay for chapter approved. The points changes are all known and freely distributed. If you bought a codex, you can just, you know, write in the new points cost.

GW isn't giving it away, but that doesn't mean paying full retail for a few points change is your only option.

I think GW Marketing Division have played a corker with their whole "8th Ed will be the most balanced, most streamlined, easiest to pick up 40k ever!". 6+ months later and players are still arguing the facts over the above statement. Meanwhile GW continue being GW behind the marketing smokescreen.

Well played GW. Hope you don't get burned by the fallout when everyone catches on.

EDIT spelling

It seems to me that GW don't especially care that point costs are distributed publicly. They won't say that out loud, for obvious reasons, but they don't seem to do anything about it and even put the community-produced scrollbuilder on their website despite their app having a paid-for equivalent.

Everyone can easily find them right now and the book has yet to be released.

Chapter Approved is far more than just the points cost adjustments - just about everything else in there is much more interesting and worthy of the small price.

What they really need to do is finally release the damn army builder they've promised since release - have everything centralised there. Also, every datasheet should be freely on the website like in AOS. Warlord traits, detachment rules etc can all go in the codex, that's fine, but have the unit rules readily available. They come in the box anyway (or will, eventually).

Danny slag wrote:
Not sure what frack people are smoking who say "because nothing isn't free." Yes, fixing your product usually is. If I buy anything and it's defective and requires an update to fix companies don't charge, how many firmware updates have you paid for any electronic you have? How many drivers have you paid for on your pc?

Take a look at what using a double negative means. The only thing defective here, is your understanding of basic grammar. Releasing new and improved products does not mean the previous products were bad. Every year Apple releases a new and improved Iphone, should those be free?

Things that are free, are not worth it.
A book for 25€ can contribute to some extent to the whole business.

flyingthruwater wrote:
I think GW Marketing Division have played a corker with their whole "8th Ed will be the most balanced, most streamlined, easiest to pick up 40k ever!". 6+ months later and players are still arguing the facts over the above statement. Meanwhile GW continue being GW behind the marketing smokescreen.

Well played GW. Hope you don't get burned by the fallout when everyone catches on.

EDIT spelling

They don't need to worry with the sheer amount of the GW holy defence force ITT.

Only in this fething hobby....

CassianSol wrote:

Chapter Approved is far more than just the points cost adjustments - just about everything else in there is much more interesting and worthy of the small price.

That remains to be seen. Its ok to charge money for new content, but point and rule updates should be free. Its not like rule books are the only income of GW.

Really, the point appendix should be a free PDF, but only that part. The other things it makes sense to pay for, what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Ruin wrote:

flyingthruwater wrote:
I think GW Marketing Division have played a corker with their whole "8th Ed will be the most balanced, most streamlined, easiest to pick up 40k ever!". 6+ months later and players are still arguing the facts over the above statement. Meanwhile GW continue being GW behind the marketing smokescreen.

Well played GW. Hope you don't get burned by the fallout when everyone catches on.

EDIT spelling

They don't need to worry with the sheer amount of the GW holy defence force ITT.

Only in this fething hobby....

That pendulum swings both ways there bud.

Wayniac wrote:
what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Then don't.

 Hollow wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Then don't.

Easier said than done. The expectation here is that you'll buy CA and use the new points values.

Wayniac wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Then don't.

Easier said than done.

Are you joking? They're plastered all over the internet. It's probably harder to find the OFFICIAL free rules than the CA points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Was Chapter Approved free in the first place?

No, Chapter Approved actually started out as an article in White Dwarf where they would introduce alternate lists, rules for new units from time to time, scenarios, and the like. The Dark Eldar got their Vehicle Upgrades in such a platform. At the end of the year/beginning of the next, all content was sorted through and most was collected into a Chapter Approved book you could buy. They did the same thing with WFB at the time in the form of Warhammer Annual, which became Warhammer Chronicles. Funnily enough, both Chapter Approved and Chronicles had TONS of content that was printable for free on GW's website at the time. Some characters' rules were only available as a free download on the website. A peek into the wayback machine, if you can find a link to it, shows how massive the free content was.

Talizvar wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?
Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.
But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

It costs money to design layout and have it printed and distribution and overhead costs as well as an expected profit margin.
You have an issue with this of all things?

Plus there is a bit of a precedent:



Yeah, back in the dark ages of 2001 and the last couple years after, we had to pay money for each of them.

I would also say looking back: they were well worth it at the time so I expect good things out of this new book.

Some more than others, but that was because certain content WAS available on their website.

clownshoes wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?

Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.

But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

Apparently you missed the memo... here are the foot notes.


- 8th is a beta set of rules being sold as a retail edition so you the player can play test the game.
- Chapter approved is a content patch.
- The upgrades to the core game system, and update patches to individual units is just easier to distribute with the content patch.

That codex thing you may have paid for, ya rough draft of ideas, don't worry we will invalidate it by 2020 just in time for 9th. Until the invest in a binder and book bag, you will need them.

GW would like to take the time to thank you. You inquisitive tester you. Game on.

Smartest thing I have read all day.

Wayniac wrote:
Really, the point appendix should be a free PDF, but only that part. The other things it makes sense to pay for, what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Agreed. And I think this is what most of the people who are mad at GW are saying-the extra missions, relics, stratagems, all that can cost money. But points cost changes, to fix their own goofs, should not cost us money.

For a Beta test, 8th edition is probably the best 40k in decades. I'm 100% fine with this model if it ensures that we avoid codex creep and a static meta game with only a few armies dominating.

You can be snarky all you want, but no game has ever been balanced at launch, and 40k is unusually unit diverse. GW is not known for their playtesting, yet they're actually getting better!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Really, the point appendix should be a free PDF, but only that part. The other things it makes sense to pay for, what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Agreed. And I think this is what most of the people who are mad at GW are saying-the extra missions, relics, stratagems, all that can cost money. But points cost changes, to fix their own goofs, should not cost us money.

And, in practice, it is free. Nobody needs to buy CA to adjust the points in their codex or index.

 Polonius wrote:
For a Beta test, 8th edition is probably the best 40k in decades. I'm 100% fine with this model if it ensures that we avoid codex creep and a static meta game with only a few armies dominating.

You can be snarky all you want, but no game has ever been balanced at launch, and 40k is unusually unit diverse. GW is not known for their playtesting, yet they're actually getting better!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Really, the point appendix should be a free PDF, but only that part. The other things it makes sense to pay for, what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Agreed. And I think this is what most of the people who are mad at GW are saying-the extra missions, relics, stratagems, all that can cost money. But points cost changes, to fix their own goofs, should not cost us money.

And, in practice, it is free. Nobody needs to buy CA to adjust the points in their codex or index.

I wouldn't call completely ignoring Grey Knights "getting better".

Audustum wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
For a Beta test, 8th edition is probably the best 40k in decades. I'm 100% fine with this model if it ensures that we avoid codex creep and a static meta game with only a few armies dominating.

You can be snarky all you want, but no game has ever been balanced at launch, and 40k is unusually unit diverse. GW is not known for their playtesting, yet they're actually getting better!

I wouldn't call completely ignoring Grey Knights "getting better".

It's not a good example, but it's not a counterexample either. Look, GW saw that IG conscript spam was abusive, and nerfed it into the ground. They made primaris marines cheaper, hit Celestine and Roboute with price hikes. They seem to be getting it. They might have a lot of misses (nothing for GK, hiking the price on IG meltas), but that doesn't mean they aren't getting better at balance.

Just because the improvements haven't hit you directly, doesn't mean they aren't getting better. And hell, the next time you play against IG, they'll be down some units with the price hikes, so it still helps you, albeit indirectly.

 Polonius wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
For a Beta test, 8th edition is probably the best 40k in decades. I'm 100% fine with this model if it ensures that we avoid codex creep and a static meta game with only a few armies dominating.

You can be snarky all you want, but no game has ever been balanced at launch, and 40k is unusually unit diverse. GW is not known for their playtesting, yet they're actually getting better!

I wouldn't call completely ignoring Grey Knights "getting better".

It's not a good example, but it's not a counterexample either. Look, GW saw that IG conscript spam was abusive, and nerfed it into the ground. They made primaris marines cheaper, hit Celestine and Roboute with price hikes. They seem to be getting it. They might have a lot of misses (nothing for GK, hiking the price on IG meltas), but that doesn't mean they aren't getting better at balance.

Just because the improvements haven't hit you directly, doesn't mean they aren't getting better. And hell, the next time you play against IG, they'll be down some units with the price hikes, so it still helps you, albeit indirectly.

You're looking at this wrong. Pre-8th complaints about GW: we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes. What's happening with GK and others right now? Ah, yes, we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes.

You want to say it's the most incremental improvement imaginable then you might be technically right, but GW is still falling into the exact same bad habits so improvement overall it ain't. The changes you list are the same kinda thing they would've done if they released a Warzone supplement about Space Marines and Chaos in 7th.

Audustum wrote:
You're looking at this wrong. Pre-8th complaints about GW: we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes. What's happening with GK and others right now? Ah, yes, we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes.

You want to say it's the most incremental improvement imaginable then you might be technically right, but GW is still falling into the exact same bad habits so improvement overall it ain't. The changes you list are the same kinda thing they would've done if they released a Warzone supplement about Space Marines and Chaos in 7th.

I think you make a good point that for your, as a GK player, you don't see an improvement. That's fine, and fair. But I think that's a very personal view. There are layoffs during strong economies, and rain in some cities while others are in drought. If all you see are your immediate surroundings, you might not notice the improvement.

And this is different than the attempts at patches in 7th with supplements. They aren't changing rules or detachments, but simply adjusting points, which is shockingly simple, but also new.

Look, I play IG. My army got nerfed all over the place. Everybody that plays me is going to have a better game now, simply due to a few points changes. That's new, and a sign of improvement.

So if chapter approved fixes balance issues, but costs, not everyone will have it. Are the old points costs still valid then?
This is why you don't charge to patch your game because then you end up with two games, the patched and the unpatched version.

 Polonius wrote:

Audustum wrote:
You're looking at this wrong. Pre-8th complaints about GW: we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes. What's happening with GK and others right now? Ah, yes, we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes.

You want to say it's the most incremental improvement imaginable then you might be technically right, but GW is still falling into the exact same bad habits so improvement overall it ain't. The changes you list are the same kinda thing they would've done if they released a Warzone supplement about Space Marines and Chaos in 7th.

I think you make a good point that for your, as a GK player, you don't see an improvement. That's fine, and fair. But I think that's a very personal view. There are layoffs during strong economies, and rain in some cities while others are in drought. If all you see are your immediate surroundings, you might not notice the improvement.

And this is different than the attempts at patches in 7th with supplements. They aren't changing rules or detachments, but simply adjusting points, which is shockingly simple, but also new.

Look, I play IG. My army got nerfed all over the place. Everybody that plays me is going to have a better game now, simply due to a few points changes. That's new, and a sign of improvement.

You act like they never nerfed things in 6th/7th but that's just not true. It happened. 1 CA that missed quite a few boats (not just GK but they're a GREAT example) isn't a huge departure from that.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Not sure what frack people are smoking who say "because nothing isn't free." Yes, fixing your product usually is. If I buy anything and it's defective and requires an update to fix companies don't charge, how many firmware updates have you paid for any electronic you have? How many drivers have you paid for on your pc?

That depends. You want to run IBM? You pay through the nose. You want software as a service? You pay monthly.

This product isn't defective even if you wish it so.

You're spouting gibberish.

Danny slag wrote:
So if chapter approved fixes balance issues, but costs, not everyone will have it. Are the old points costs still valid then?
This is why you don't charge to patch your game because then you end up with two games, the patched and the unpatched version.

this is actually a solid question, but I think GW expects players to have all updated rules for their army.

In practice, I think it comes down to your local store/club/tournament/whatever. This information isn't exactly a secret. It's going to be tough for anybody to claim they can't get the price costs.

That said... that does imply the real problem with CA: new players. Right now, if a player wants to start the game, they'll likely pick Primaris or Death Guard, which are in the starter... and both would then need a codex as well as CA. That seems very awkward and unwieldy.

Pretty much every other game does their errata/points updates as a free download. That's generally an industry standard. GW is the lone outlier that I'm aware of in this respect.

Ruin wrote:

flyingthruwater wrote:
I think GW Marketing Division have played a corker with their whole "8th Ed will be the most balanced, most streamlined, easiest to pick up 40k ever!". 6+ months later and players are still arguing the facts over the above statement. Meanwhile GW continue being GW behind the marketing smokescreen.

Well played GW. Hope you don't get burned by the fallout when everyone catches on.

EDIT spelling

They don't need to worry with the sheer amount of the GW holy defence force ITT.

Only in this fething hobby....

Only in this community do we have useless posts riddled with conspiracy theories, flawed logic, and diatribes devoid of critical thinking.

You guys are just too clairvoyant though. You should get out of the hobby with this new found knowledge before it implodes.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Pretty much every other game does their errata/points updates as a free download. That's generally an industry standard. GW is the lone outlier that I'm aware of in this respect.

Yeah, now that I think about new players, I'm starting feel a concern about charging for the points costs. GW has surprised us in the past with pdfs of new rules, maybe they'll do that after everybody pre-orders/buys CA.

I like CA because GW can make significant game changes when stuff really doesn't work; this means 8th can only get better and better, and hopefully, many changes aren't knee jerk to the point of being stupid.

What I've seen of CA is all good, other than some of the FW point changes being a bit crazy on how high they were. They did significant reworks on smite spam unit's points so its not so easy and "auto-include". Also, from what I've read, its $25... which is nothing for anyone who plays this game. I'd prefer it be printed for $20, or be included as its own edition of White Dwarf and printed quarterly, but meh.

 Polonius wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Pretty much every other game does their errata/points updates as a free download. That's generally an industry standard. GW is the lone outlier that I'm aware of in this respect.

Yeah, now that I think about new players, I'm starting feel a concern about charging for the points costs. GW has surprised us in the past with pdfs of new rules, maybe they'll do that after everybody pre-orders/buys CA.

No, I doubt that. GW won't give away the cow for free on their flagship even if I'd like them to. Regardless i'll put my money where my mouth is and buy CA, because I want them to do regular updates while voicing my support to get points for free.

 Polonius wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
So if chapter approved fixes balance issues, but costs, not everyone will have it. Are the old points costs still valid then?
This is why you don't charge to patch your game because then you end up with two games, the patched and the unpatched version.

this is actually a solid question, but I think GW expects players to have all updated rules for their army.

In practice, I think it comes down to your local store/club/tournament/whatever. This information isn't exactly a secret. It's going to be tough for anybody to claim they can't get the price costs.

That said... that does imply the real problem with CA: new players. Right now, if a player wants to start the game, they'll likely pick Primaris or Death Guard, which are in the starter... and both would then need a codex as well as CA. That seems very awkward and unwieldy.

They wouldn't actually need them - the rules are in the starter set for both in a mini codex form. Similarly, if you buy a new box(if it has been reboxed for 8th), it will have the rules for the unit. Codexes are completely optional unless you play matched play.

I like the idea of having an annual central game update book (the GH has been great both times for AOS). Points updates should be provided for free though - essentially I paid for that when I bought my codex.

That said, it is just a £20 book and the points pages are so freely available and probably will be on battlescribe before release, if they haven't made it there already.

You're in a restaurant, enjoying your $50 soup, when the waiter comes out.
"I'm terribly sorry sir, but there's a dead rat in your soup. Don't worry though, we will remove it for only $25."

Guys, what if it's all a vast conspiracy to move us off of using points at all?

M.

Panzergraf wrote:
You're in a restaurant, enjoying your $50 soup, when the waiter comes out.
"I'm terribly sorry sir, but there's a dead rat in your soup. Don't worry though, we will remove it for only $25."

Totally not the same situation. Food = Pointless plastic models.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Panzergraf wrote:
You're in a restaurant, enjoying your $50 soup, when the waiter comes out.
"I'm terribly sorry sir, but there's a dead rat in your soup. Don't worry though, we will remove it for only $25."

Totally not the same situation. Food = Pointless plastic models.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Bingo.

A lot of people are comparing this to video games were they roll out patches for free to fix game breaking bugs. However, remember that millions of people bought these games, and the companies rely on people to continue playing and buying things such as DLC to increase the life and profitability of a game. Many people beat a game in a week, get rid of it, and move on.

With 40k, many people have invested hundreds (or thousands) into this game. While logically they COULD roll out everything in periodic free updates, which is sounds like they will do, Chapter Approved can be seen more as an "expansion + patch" because it does give us a lot of extra content on top of fixes to armies. As well, you need to realize from a business standpoint, printing a book with newly developed content needs to cost something. Your buying a physical product. I'm sure people would complain less if there was a $5 digital only copy you could get through Amazon, but I don't mind paying a little. Keeps GW running, and keeps your FLGS in business.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Pretty much every other game does their errata/points updates as a free download. That's generally an industry standard. GW is the lone outlier that I'm aware of in this respect.

What he said.

Having a printed, paper version is nice, and made sense in the 1990's, but today it should have been available as free PDF, with the book as a potential alternative containing additional content like the new scenarios. For instance, does this new supplement mean they will no longer update their FAQs and erratas?

 Zid wrote:

Bingo.

A lot of people are comparing this to video games were they roll out patches for free to fix game breaking bugs. However, remember that millions of people bought these games, and the companies rely on people to continue playing and buying things such as DLC to increase the life and profitability of a game. Many people beat a game in a week, get rid of it, and move on.

With 40k, many people have invested hundreds (or thousands) into this game. While logically they COULD roll out everything in periodic free updates, which is sounds like they will do, Chapter Approved can be seen more as an "expansion + patch" because it does give us a lot of extra content on top of fixes to armies. As well, you need to realize from a business standpoint, printing a book with newly developed content needs to cost something. Your buying a physical product. I'm sure people would complain less if there was a $5 digital only copy you could get through Amazon, but I don't mind paying a little. Keeps GW running, and keeps your FLGS in business.

But it doesn't need to be a physical product, that's just a decision they've made.

Everyone else in the boardgame and miniature business do these sort of things as free downloads. Like FFG, that's one of the reasons they're on such good terms with their fan-base. You can't really make the comparison to the digital games developers, and it ought to be sufficient that everyone else in the "physical" game industry do these things regularly and for free. I think we all agree a new book with extra scenarios should cost money, but we would have liked the CA-part to be stand-alone.

The balance changes are a patch, not an expansion. A codex would be an expansion. Rules for new models would be like a DLC.

I get that a printed book has to cost some money, but the balance changes should be available for free as a PDF.

Panzergraf wrote:
The balance changes are a patch, not an expansion. A codex would be an expansion. Rules for new models would be like a DLC.

I get that a printed book has to cost some money, but the balance changes should be available for free as a PDF.

In this case, GW chose to bundle the balance changes in with the expansion, i.e. the un-expanded game got 0 changes, but the expansion got all the expansion content + balance changes.

It'd be like if an MMO had one meta for free players that's been the same since release, and all the balance patches only changed things for the paid people (who I guess play on a different server or something).

We've already seen point tweaks in the Errata/FAQ documents. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the sky does indeed not fall, and if the points changes in Chapter Approved are released in the next updated FAQ/Errata.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Panzergraf wrote:
You're in a restaurant, enjoying your $50 soup, when the waiter comes out.
"I'm terribly sorry sir, but there's a dead rat in your soup. Don't worry though, we will remove it for only $25."

Totally not the same situation. Food = Pointless plastic models.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I think the comparison is fair. Going to the restaurant is not surviving by eating food, is something "pointless" just like playing with plastic toys. Going to the restaurant doesn't mean feeding, it's just another way to have fun.

So, realtalk - how do I handle players who haven't started using the CA values?

Like, if I show up to the FLGS and play a 2k point game and see his list uses pre-CA points values. There's going to be a lag time before people get on board, so how have you all dealt with it?

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
So, realtalk - how do I handle players who haven't started using the CA values?

Like, if I show up to the FLGS and play a 2k point game and see his list uses pre-CA points values. There's going to be a lag time before people get on board, so how have you all dealt with it?

M.

The book has not released yet. Everything we have is leaks and people who have gotten the book early telling us things. You can't really have the expectation that everyone has seen the leaks or wishes to use them. Once the book releases on Saturday, yeah the expectation is that you will use the new points costs and rules and whatnot. But until then, you can't really tell people "Use these rules that haven't come out yet cause I saw blurry pictures of them online, you can totally trust me on them!"

As for how to deal with it, well deal with it the same way you deal with literally every issue/problem in this hobby. Talking. Discuss before the game whether you guys will use CA before it releases or not. It takes all of 30 seconds to say "Hey, do you wanna use the new CA points and rules even though we don't have the book yet?" If your opponent says yes, all good. But if they say no, you can't really be upset that they don't wanna use rules that neither of you actually have on hand.

Panzergraf wrote:
The balance changes are a patch, not an expansion. A codex would be an expansion. Rules for new models would be like a DLC.

I get that a printed book has to cost some money, but the balance changes should be available for free as a PDF.

This is all due to GW seeing themselves as Inelastic VS elastic. it's a problem that goes way back. basically if GW sees an opportunity to sell gak, they will.

 Raichase wrote:
We've already seen point tweaks in the Errata/FAQ documents. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the sky does indeed not fall, and if the points changes in Chapter Approved are released in the next updated FAQ/Errata.

Yeah. Everyone seems to be overreacting a bit. The book isn't even out yet. I expect we'll just get another official errata.

 Zingraff wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Pretty much every other game does their errata/points updates as a free download. That's generally an industry standard. GW is the lone outlier that I'm aware of in this respect.

What he said.

Having a printed, paper version is nice, and made sense in the 1990's, but today it should have been available as free PDF, with the book as a potential alternative containing additional content like the new scenarios. For instance, does this new supplement mean they will no longer update their FAQs and erratas?

 Zid wrote:

Bingo.

A lot of people are comparing this to video games were they roll out patches for free to fix game breaking bugs. However, remember that millions of people bought these games, and the companies rely on people to continue playing and buying things such as DLC to increase the life and profitability of a game. Many people beat a game in a week, get rid of it, and move on.

With 40k, many people have invested hundreds (or thousands) into this game. While logically they COULD roll out everything in periodic free updates, which is sounds like they will do, Chapter Approved can be seen more as an "expansion + patch" because it does give us a lot of extra content on top of fixes to armies. As well, you need to realize from a business standpoint, printing a book with newly developed content needs to cost something. Your buying a physical product. I'm sure people would complain less if there was a $5 digital only copy you could get through Amazon, but I don't mind paying a little. Keeps GW running, and keeps your FLGS in business.

But it doesn't need to be a physical product, that's just a decision they've made.

Everyone else in the boardgame and miniature business do these sort of things as free downloads. Like FFG, that's one of the reasons they're on such good terms with their fan-base. You can't really make the comparison to the digital games developers, and it ought to be sufficient that everyone else in the "physical" game industry do these things regularly and for free. I think we all agree a new book with extra scenarios should cost money, but we would have liked the CA-part to be stand-alone.

I can see your point. The thing here is that boardgames (I have a huge collection myself and follow them closely) are stand-alone, one of products that people buy and play. 40k your always adding more and more, books, models, whatever. This could be a test to see how well it goes over, because honestly people can just take a marker to their codex with the leaks and make manual changes. It will be interesting.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:


The book has not released yet. Everything we have is leaks and people who have gotten the book early telling us things. You can't really have the expectation that everyone has seen the leaks or wishes to use them. Once the book releases on Saturday, yeah the expectation is that you will use the new points costs and rules and whatnot. But until then, you can't really tell people "Use these rules that haven't come out yet cause I saw blurry pictures of them online, you can totally trust me on them!"

...you don't say?

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

As for how to deal with it, well deal with it the same way you deal with literally every issue/problem in this hobby. Talking. Discuss before the game whether you guys will use CA before it releases or not. It takes all of 30 seconds to say "Hey, do you wanna use the new CA points and rules even though we don't have the book yet?" If your opponent says yes, all good. But if they say no, you can't really be upset that they don't wanna use rules that neither of you actually have on hand.

To which they say no, at which point I say "Hold on, let me go redo my list."?

I suppose I should start doing lists on both for utility.

M.

 sennacherib wrote:
Um. Because GW isn’t a charity.

I am not a charity, either.
I am not going to pay for non-functional rules, and then pay again for a sloppy errata.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Um. Because GW isn’t a charity.

I am not a charity, either.
I am not going to pay for non-functional rules, and then pay again for a sloppy errata.

'Non-functional'

So don't. Such entitlement complexes in this thread.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Um. Because GW isn’t a charity.

I am not a charity, either.
I am not going to pay for non-functional rules, and then pay again for a sloppy errata.

'Non-functional'

So don't. Such entitlement complexes in this thread.

The point is that that is a shallow defence: other companies do not charge for errata because they recognize that is their duty to fix their shortcomings and do not charge the customer fo those.
The "battered wife" GW customer considers requiring such normal thing "entitlement".

No, I don't think he's saying "you're entitled for not tolerating it."

I think he's saying "Don't buy it if you don't want to; GW owes you nothing and you owe GW nothing."

What a bunch of self indulgent whiners. If you don't want to buy it then don't, just don't complain when your opponent uses the new points and can get more stuff in their list. All these people complaining about the number of books they need to carry, grow up. If you don't like the new 40k then quit and don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out

 Rolsheen wrote:
What a bunch of self indulgent whiners. If you don't want to buy it then don't, just don't complain when your opponent uses the new points and can get more stuff in their list. All these people complaining about the number of books they need to carry, grow up. If you don't like the new 40k then quit and don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out

...what if the new point values make you pay more? Can you just ignore that then too? Are you going to be okay going against someone with a list that has different point values from yours if it doesn't work in your favour?

See, my problem is that I like the new 40k. 8th edition is a massive improvement to the core gameplay that has been seriously bogged down for a very long time. But handling content like this is a poor policy that infringes on the enjoyment I, and others, get out of it.

Gw's digital stuff does not sell well. A lot of the playerbase tend to be quite old-school and prefer physical versions of this kind of thing. That costs money.
It is is interesting that for AoS there is both the physical book and warscroll builder which is digital and free. I hope that when the rumoured 40k app is released, it will also be free. That would solve a lot of people's problems.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Um. Because GW isn’t a charity.

I am not a charity, either.
I am not going to pay for non-functional rules, and then pay again for a sloppy errata.

'Non-functional'

So don't. Such entitlement complexes in this thread.

The point is that that is a shallow defence: other companies do not charge for errata because they recognize that is their duty to fix their shortcomings and do not charge the customer fo those.
The "battered wife" GW customer considers requiring such normal thing "entitlement".

As apposed to what you're doing? Stalking you Ex.

Chikout wrote:
Gw's digital stuff does not sell well. A lot of the playerbase tend to be quite old-school and prefer physical versions of this kind of thing. That costs money.
It is is interesting that for AoS there is both the physical book and warscroll builder which is digital and free. I hope that when the rumoured 40k app is released, it will also be free. That would solve a lot of people's problems.

It would be nice if PDFs could be auto-updated with changes. I'm doing it manually, but I'm invariably going to miss stuff.

M.

 Rolsheen wrote:
What a bunch of self indulgent whiners. If you don't want to buy it then don't, just don't complain when your opponent uses the new points and can get more stuff in their list. All these people complaining about the number of books they need to carry, grow up. If you don't like the new 40k then quit and don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out

Or gets less. You do know price changes aren't all price drops? Significant amount of them are price hikes. Many in realms of 3 digit %'s.

I mean we have stuff that cost 600 pts(expensive but affordable in 2k list) suddenly being 1800 or basically entire army. You okay opponent bringing that 600 pts version?-)

The question I have is "how sustainable is the rules model they have set out"? Right now you might need 4 books to carry around with your army - codex, index (for options not in the codex), forgeworld index and the chapter approved. Points will be spread across these books. What happens when the 2nd and 3rd CA books come? You'll potentially need those as well. Soon enough everyone will be carrying around a small library!

Sure, you can photocopy pages or just leave the books behind and try an remember rules but that causes its own problems and doesn't give the opponent an opportunity to look things up.

They must surely be planning an app for army building that also holds the datacards. I can imagine them charging a subscription for it but it would save carrying a backpack of books each time!...

WobblyGoblin wrote:
Sure, you can photocopy pages or just leave the books behind and try an remember rules but that causes its own problems and doesn't give the opponent an opportunity to look things up.

Yeah sorry no. If you use some rule during game opponent MUST be able to see the rules in question on demand and onus for providing that is on the player who uses it, not the opponent. Thus if you use something but don't have rules with you nope. Can't be expected to actually be able to use it.

If it's only one or two page then yeah photocopy it though that might not fly well around in a shop unless you play with people who KNOWS you have the book...

Now with automatic updates, online content, ebooks... it's just strange that an update of a product someone already bought comes in a different book and at a price.
May be for younger players it would be better to pay a 9.99 monthly membership to GW and get all your faction new stuff and updates.

"Entitlement" is something else. I think It's not so unreasonable, having bought not so long ago all the ruleset for my game and my faction, to be able to play them.
Constant updates and feedback with the players are great, but they need an equally state of the art selling strategy.
The consequence could be that a lot of people will be pushed to "russian" ways to get content...

That said, .... I'll buy the CA

Battlefront are a good company.
They would send my store full colour pages of errata and stickers to go over occasional typos to distribute to my players with every update. This was great for business both ways as they would come from far and wide to the store to spend money on other things whilst getting their free updates.

With a new edition, you walked into a store with your old hardback copy of FOW they would put a cool veteran sticker inside it, and a nice full colour A5 softback for free.
Everyone who got this treatment very much appreciated it and felt reinvigorated to keep playing and most importantly, paying.
Most would buy the new hardback soon after for missions, art, fluff etc and all would keep adding to their model collections.
It can and should be done by all companies imo as that bon ami is invaluable.

Watching people complain about capitalists trying to make a buck was entertaining for a while but it's getting old now.

GW is company. you don't have to buy from them. They have Zero obligation to cater to your demands so long as people are buying the product. they don't care about you, by law they care only about making money. And if shady crap like chapter approves makes more money than releasing the rules for free, then you HAVE to live with that decision, as it is theirs to make not yours. if you have such a problem with it, vote with your dollars, and don't buy.

This is how capitalism works. If you don't like it, there's a few alternatives.

But question is is this best way to get money. I know they lost me as a customer. Was about to buy more stuff for IG and later for orks plus CA. Instead no new models and I can just update price of models from the leaked pictures and skip the dumpfest of CA.

But why reward them for the blatant money grabbing that CA does with it's clear money driven decision to move players from FW resin to more profitable plastic...Nope. Not going to follow that.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Watching people complain about capitalists trying to make a buck was entertaining for a while but it's getting old now.

GW is company. you don't have to buy from them. They have Zero obligation to cater to your demands so long as people are buying the product. they don't care about you, by law they care only about making money. And if shady crap like chapter approves makes more money than releasing the rules for free, then you HAVE to live with that decision, as it is theirs to make not yours. if you have such a problem with it, vote with your dollars, and don't buy.

This is how capitalism works. If you don't like it, there's a few alternatives.

This is how forums with relatively free speech work, if you don't like it......

I agree there are a lot of posts with dubious validity in this thread. Is your description "how capitalism works"? Seems to me there are many shades of "capitalism" at work in the world. Even GW appear to be influenced in some small way by community feedback these days, other companies take a very responsive attitude and have a genuine ongoing "conversation" with their customers. The way to maximise profit is not clearly mapped, you may even find decisions made which are informed by moral codes, wow!

I'm getting really tired of reading about the 'phantom internet problem' of having to 'carry a library' around in order to play an army. This is such a BS non-issue, which literally never happens IRL.

Everyone I have seen (including myself) carries around a maximum of one book. Their codex or index (I have digital copies so I don't carry around any physical books, as do a significant percentage of people I see playing)

Nobody is carrying in a Rulebook, there is maybe one or two about for use at the store, or games club if absolutely necessary (which is never given the simplicity of the rules and the fact that most people aren't rules-lawyering A-holes like they are online)

The odd unit here and there not in a codex or index or something else? Photocopy of their rules or a small note of their rules made. That's it.

Can this "OMG I need to carry around the Rulebook, Codex, Index and CA just to play my army" stop please?

 Hollow wrote:
I'm getting really tired of reading about the 'phantom internet problem' of having to 'carry a library' around in order to play an army. This is such a BS non-issue, which literally never happens IRL.

Everyone I have seen (including myself) carries around a maximum of one book. Their codex or index (I have digital copies so I don't carry around any physical books, as do a significant percentage of people I see playing)

Nobody is carrying in a Rulebook, there is maybe one or two about for use at the store, or games club if absolutely necessary (which is never given the simplicity of the rules and the fact that most people aren't rules-lawyering A-holes like they are online)

The odd unit here and there not in a codex or index or something else? Photocopy of their rules or a small note of their rules made. That's it.

Can this "OMG I need to carry around the Rulebook, Codex, Index and CA just to play my army" stop please?

My anecdotal evidence is different to your anecdotal evidence. You're wrong. Fight me.

To be fair, at the moment for a 40k game I bring Chaos Codex, Datacards, Rulebook & Chaos FAQ. Now I'll bring along Chapter Approved, I could be 1 in a 1000 but I like to have the resources on me if I did happen to need one.

Chikout wrote:
Gw's digital stuff does not sell well. A lot of the playerbase tend to be quite old-school and prefer physical versions of this kind of thing. That costs money.
It is is interesting that for AoS there is both the physical book and warscroll builder which is digital and free. I hope that when the rumoured 40k app is released, it will also be free. That would solve a lot of people's problems.

It's worth mentioning that there is a significant difference between the physical book, the Age of Sigmar app, and the Warscroll Builder.
Warscroll Builder lets you create something like this:

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer (100)
- General
- Trait: Arch-slaughterer
- Artefact: The Blood-forged Armour

Battleline
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
- 2x Goreglaives
40 x Bloodreavers (240)
- Meatripper Axes

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 440 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400

It's a quick, easy way to build a list. It gives you zero reference material to work from. You still need the books for the Artefacts and Warlord Traits but the warscrolls themselves are separate to the Warscroll Builder app.
The rumored 40k app is purportedly going to be like that, where you have an easy way to build and check lists and then maybe we'll see an Age of Sigmar style app that has the datasheets themselves added in later.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Um. Because GW isn’t a charity.

I am not a charity, either.
I am not going to pay for non-functional rules, and then pay again for a sloppy errata.

'Non-functional'

So don't. Such entitlement complexes in this thread.

The point is that that is a shallow defence: other companies do not charge for errata because they recognize that is their duty to fix their shortcomings and do not charge the customer fo those.
The "battered wife" GW customer considers requiring such normal thing "entitlement".

As apposed to what you're doing? Stalking you Ex.

Not really, I restarted to be a customer with 8th. But is clear that GW is the same old, and the designer the same incompetent bunch.

I do see a lot of the word "incompetent" thrown around, but in the defense of the Game Designers, they're working in a very tight spot...

After all, Forge World is a different team from GW, and who knows who made Chapter Approved. Did they cooperate for the first time ever? Did FW submit points changes expecting them to be edited but they were accepted without question? Did GW's game designers do them? Was there marketing involved in trying to push Apoc by nerfing fun units in regular play?

I think to call the game designers "incompetent" is uncalled for, without having more data on what happened.

I think it's entirely possible that the whole thing was written by Warhammer Community based on facebook comments, lol.

I'm almost certain the entirety of Chapter Approved's points changes were not done by the Game Designers alone; presumably, they are following someone else's directives.

Look, I can admit that they could be probably be under-manned and for sure the schedule is tight.
But is quite a long time that they cannot put out a decent ruleset to save their life. 8th is better than the previous 2 edition but at the cost of good elements of the game. And the more they add complexity to their system, the more they are overwhelmed by it, or forget completely some army.
8th was a good chance to reset but is going off rail quickly and some basic concept like how they translated areas effects and template is inherently flawed. So much that they have to hotfix so many of the tanks and similar units.
And speaking of Forgeworld, I think that GW played a number of them with CA. Again, I would argue, after that time they wrote the 6th edition guard codex.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Look, I can admit that they could be probably be under-manned and for sure the schedule is tight.
But is quite a long time that they cannot put out a decent ruleset to save their life. 8th is better than the previous 2 edition but at the cost of good elements of the game. And the more they add complexity to their system, the more they are overwhelmed by it, or forget completely some army.
And speaking of Forgeworld, I think that GW played a number of them with CA. Again, I would argue, after that time they wrote the 6th edition guard codex.

I think a "decent ruleset" is subjective. After all, I really enjoyed playing every edition except perhaps 7th, but I played the Horus Heresy and had a blast with 7th, so I'd consider it decent. I've been having a huge amount of fun in 8th, so it's decent too, to me. And I super love the way they translated templates / area of effect weapons, but to each their own I suppose.

And I think the Game Designers aren't "overwhelmed" by complexity or "forget" armies. I don't even know what you mean by "overwhelmed", and as for "forgetting" armies, I'm almost positive it isn't the Games Designers who decide when armies get released or fixed. I don't think they sit at their desk and go "I'll work on SOB this year, we'll release the new SOB Dex in march!"

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


And I think the Game Designers aren't "overwhelmed" by complexity or "forget" armies. I don't even know what you mean by "overwhelmed"

They can't handle all these units and rules and end up being unable to balance the game, forget mechanics when writing a rule, not consider a given rule interaction, and so on. They write a system too complex for their skill to handle. This is a fact, and it keeps happening.

and as for "forgetting" armies, I'm almost positive it isn't the Games Designers who decide when armies get released or fixed. I don't think they sit at their desk and go "I'll work on SOB this year, we'll release the new SOB Dex in march!"

Ask Grey Knight and Ork player if they think they are treated equally.
Now, you make a point that, say, codex release is not in the hand of the design team but
(I) in the moment the rules are written, such rule writing can be badly be well executed. And it's on the design team
(II) even if the decision of releasing/updating or not a given faction in a given moment is not to the designers, and their tight/difficult work schedule is due to mismanagement, I'd argue that the blame for the mess is still within GW.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


And I think the Game Designers aren't "overwhelmed" by complexity or "forget" armies. I don't even know what you mean by "overwhelmed"

They can't handle all these units and rules and end up being unable to balance the game, forget mechanics when writing a rule, not consider a given rule interaction, and so on. They write a system too complex for their skill to handle. This is a fact, and it keeps happening.

and as for "forgetting" armies, I'm almost positive it isn't the Games Designers who decide when armies get released or fixed. I don't think they sit at their desk and go "I'll work on SOB this year, we'll release the new SOB Dex in march!"

Ask Grey Knight and Ork player if they think they are treated equally.
Now, you make a point that, say, codex release is not in the hand of the design team but
(I) in the moment the rules are written, such rule writing can be badly be well executed. And it's on the design team
(II) even if the decision of releasing/updating or not a given faction in a given moment is not to the designers, and their tight/difficult work schedule is due to mismanagement, I'd argue that the blame for the mess is still within GW.

Yes, the first one I understand what you mean now and I agree with. I'd perhaps argue that it's less outright "incompetence" and more, perhaps, their ambition getting the best of them, but yes.

The second point (or two points as you have it divided up) is ... well, let me address it the way you have it there.

(I) Yes, this is true, but I haven't actually seen any example of rules being badly executed. I think that's subjective, again, but in my opinion, the rules in general seem to function just fine - they may not be balanced, but again, that could be due to myriad factors. It's entirely possible that Grey Knights, for example, was designed and playtested versus weaker Index lists, while Astra Militarum was designed and playtested alongside similar-release-date codices like Eldar and Tyranids. Whether or not this is on the Design Team depends on who determined the playtest schedule and how they conducted the playtest.

(II) Oh, yes, it's absolutely GW's fault. I'm not white-knighting for GW here, I'm just asking people not to bandy about words like "incompetent" that can have serious career ramifications if these rules designers ever want to actually move beyond GW. They may be mismanaged, mistreated, and are probably underpaid, but they're not automatically incompetent. There's a lot that goes in to balancing and releasing the codices, and things like Chapter Approved, and I guarantee you that most of the stuff isn't really that related to game design and has more to do with marketing/mismanagement (i.e. making the big scaries unplayable in Matched Play really pushes Apocalypse).

I think that we either agree or have to agree to disagree on the rest, but I am honestly baffled by the decisions on FW.
Not everything was increased right? The Spartan got better, right? The dreadclaw?
Maybe there is a logic behind, dunno. The spartan and the dreadclaw are close enough to LR and pods to be considered Kosher?

If I had to guess at the logic (and this is completely a guess) - it is easier (and kinder to the playerbase) to start from scratch rebalancing something by making it completely unusably expensive, then decreasing the points incrementally until you start seeing the unit in tournaments or at events in the numbers you were hoping for.

E.g. Hypothetical Unit X needs rebalancing, but I don't know how to do it, but I know I'd like to see ~30% of all Imperial Guard lists include it. So I'm going to make it 2000 points, which means 0% of Guard lists at events include it. So now I make it 1500, six months later - still 0. Then I make it 1000, then eventually 800, then 600, then it starts to show up in 10% of lists, so I be more careful: 550, 15%. 500: 20%. 450: 30%.

Turns out the unit is really worth 450 points, but it's better to start from 2000 and go down than start at 150 and have the entire meta shift and fracture around Hypothetical Unit X, and then go up.

That's just a wild guess though.

Honestly, the more I hear about CA, the more I think it deserves its price point. There's a ton of new rules, missions, apoc, stratagems, etc, that's worthy of a book imo.

Though, I do feel like the points adjustment should be posted somewhere in their errata section.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Honestly, the more I hear about CA, the more I think it deserves its price point. There's a ton of new rules, missions, apoc, stratagems, etc, that's worthy of a book imo.

Though, I do feel like the points adjustment should be posted somewhere in their errata section.

Exactly. I don't mind paying for new missions, new relics, new stratagems, all that. I do mind paying for points fixes.

We've known since 8th editions release that a yearly Chapter Approved would be published with updated point costs.

Chapter Approved has more than enough new material to justify it's cover price. It's basically the Warhammer 40,000 8.1 update.