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Really, the point appendix should be a free PDF, but only that part. The other things it makes sense to pay for, what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Ruin wrote:

flyingthruwater wrote:
I think GW Marketing Division have played a corker with their whole "8th Ed will be the most balanced, most streamlined, easiest to pick up 40k ever!". 6+ months later and players are still arguing the facts over the above statement. Meanwhile GW continue being GW behind the marketing smokescreen.

Well played GW. Hope you don't get burned by the fallout when everyone catches on.

EDIT spelling

They don't need to worry with the sheer amount of the GW holy defence force ITT.

Only in this fething hobby....

That pendulum swings both ways there bud.

Wayniac wrote:
what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Then don't.

 Hollow wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Then don't.

Easier said than done. The expectation here is that you'll buy CA and use the new points values.

Wayniac wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Then don't.

Easier said than done.

Are you joking? They're plastered all over the internet. It's probably harder to find the OFFICIAL free rules than the CA points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Was Chapter Approved free in the first place?

No, Chapter Approved actually started out as an article in White Dwarf where they would introduce alternate lists, rules for new units from time to time, scenarios, and the like. The Dark Eldar got their Vehicle Upgrades in such a platform. At the end of the year/beginning of the next, all content was sorted through and most was collected into a Chapter Approved book you could buy. They did the same thing with WFB at the time in the form of Warhammer Annual, which became Warhammer Chronicles. Funnily enough, both Chapter Approved and Chronicles had TONS of content that was printable for free on GW's website at the time. Some characters' rules were only available as a free download on the website. A peek into the wayback machine, if you can find a link to it, shows how massive the free content was.

Talizvar wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?
Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.
But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

It costs money to design layout and have it printed and distribution and overhead costs as well as an expected profit margin.
You have an issue with this of all things?

Plus there is a bit of a precedent:



Yeah, back in the dark ages of 2001 and the last couple years after, we had to pay money for each of them.

I would also say looking back: they were well worth it at the time so I expect good things out of this new book.

Some more than others, but that was because certain content WAS available on their website.

clownshoes wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Other than they are a greedy business and know people like me will line up to buy a 50 dollar soft back because it's the new thing (or what ever the price is) can any one shine a positive light on it?

Don't get me wrong I love 8th and the new GW it just seems like it would be so much easier to keep the game up to date online then making us carry around another book.

But Lord knows they must be going broke with just the price they charge for the models

Apparently you missed the memo... here are the foot notes.


- 8th is a beta set of rules being sold as a retail edition so you the player can play test the game.
- Chapter approved is a content patch.
- The upgrades to the core game system, and update patches to individual units is just easier to distribute with the content patch.

That codex thing you may have paid for, ya rough draft of ideas, don't worry we will invalidate it by 2020 just in time for 9th. Until the invest in a binder and book bag, you will need them.

GW would like to take the time to thank you. You inquisitive tester you. Game on.

Smartest thing I have read all day.

Wayniac wrote:
Really, the point appendix should be a free PDF, but only that part. The other things it makes sense to pay for, what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Agreed. And I think this is what most of the people who are mad at GW are saying-the extra missions, relics, stratagems, all that can cost money. But points cost changes, to fix their own goofs, should not cost us money.

For a Beta test, 8th edition is probably the best 40k in decades. I'm 100% fine with this model if it ensures that we avoid codex creep and a static meta game with only a few armies dominating.

You can be snarky all you want, but no game has ever been balanced at launch, and 40k is unusually unit diverse. GW is not known for their playtesting, yet they're actually getting better!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Really, the point appendix should be a free PDF, but only that part. The other things it makes sense to pay for, what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Agreed. And I think this is what most of the people who are mad at GW are saying-the extra missions, relics, stratagems, all that can cost money. But points cost changes, to fix their own goofs, should not cost us money.

And, in practice, it is free. Nobody needs to buy CA to adjust the points in their codex or index.

 Polonius wrote:
For a Beta test, 8th edition is probably the best 40k in decades. I'm 100% fine with this model if it ensures that we avoid codex creep and a static meta game with only a few armies dominating.

You can be snarky all you want, but no game has ever been balanced at launch, and 40k is unusually unit diverse. GW is not known for their playtesting, yet they're actually getting better!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Really, the point appendix should be a free PDF, but only that part. The other things it makes sense to pay for, what doesn't make sense is to pay for errata (which is what that is).

Agreed. And I think this is what most of the people who are mad at GW are saying-the extra missions, relics, stratagems, all that can cost money. But points cost changes, to fix their own goofs, should not cost us money.

And, in practice, it is free. Nobody needs to buy CA to adjust the points in their codex or index.

I wouldn't call completely ignoring Grey Knights "getting better".

Audustum wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
For a Beta test, 8th edition is probably the best 40k in decades. I'm 100% fine with this model if it ensures that we avoid codex creep and a static meta game with only a few armies dominating.

You can be snarky all you want, but no game has ever been balanced at launch, and 40k is unusually unit diverse. GW is not known for their playtesting, yet they're actually getting better!

I wouldn't call completely ignoring Grey Knights "getting better".

It's not a good example, but it's not a counterexample either. Look, GW saw that IG conscript spam was abusive, and nerfed it into the ground. They made primaris marines cheaper, hit Celestine and Roboute with price hikes. They seem to be getting it. They might have a lot of misses (nothing for GK, hiking the price on IG meltas), but that doesn't mean they aren't getting better at balance.

Just because the improvements haven't hit you directly, doesn't mean they aren't getting better. And hell, the next time you play against IG, they'll be down some units with the price hikes, so it still helps you, albeit indirectly.

 Polonius wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
For a Beta test, 8th edition is probably the best 40k in decades. I'm 100% fine with this model if it ensures that we avoid codex creep and a static meta game with only a few armies dominating.

You can be snarky all you want, but no game has ever been balanced at launch, and 40k is unusually unit diverse. GW is not known for their playtesting, yet they're actually getting better!

I wouldn't call completely ignoring Grey Knights "getting better".

It's not a good example, but it's not a counterexample either. Look, GW saw that IG conscript spam was abusive, and nerfed it into the ground. They made primaris marines cheaper, hit Celestine and Roboute with price hikes. They seem to be getting it. They might have a lot of misses (nothing for GK, hiking the price on IG meltas), but that doesn't mean they aren't getting better at balance.

Just because the improvements haven't hit you directly, doesn't mean they aren't getting better. And hell, the next time you play against IG, they'll be down some units with the price hikes, so it still helps you, albeit indirectly.

You're looking at this wrong. Pre-8th complaints about GW: we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes. What's happening with GK and others right now? Ah, yes, we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes.

You want to say it's the most incremental improvement imaginable then you might be technically right, but GW is still falling into the exact same bad habits so improvement overall it ain't. The changes you list are the same kinda thing they would've done if they released a Warzone supplement about Space Marines and Chaos in 7th.

Audustum wrote:
You're looking at this wrong. Pre-8th complaints about GW: we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes. What's happening with GK and others right now? Ah, yes, we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes.

You want to say it's the most incremental improvement imaginable then you might be technically right, but GW is still falling into the exact same bad habits so improvement overall it ain't. The changes you list are the same kinda thing they would've done if they released a Warzone supplement about Space Marines and Chaos in 7th.

I think you make a good point that for your, as a GK player, you don't see an improvement. That's fine, and fair. But I think that's a very personal view. There are layoffs during strong economies, and rain in some cities while others are in drought. If all you see are your immediate surroundings, you might not notice the improvement.

And this is different than the attempts at patches in 7th with supplements. They aren't changing rules or detachments, but simply adjusting points, which is shockingly simple, but also new.

Look, I play IG. My army got nerfed all over the place. Everybody that plays me is going to have a better game now, simply due to a few points changes. That's new, and a sign of improvement.

So if chapter approved fixes balance issues, but costs, not everyone will have it. Are the old points costs still valid then?
This is why you don't charge to patch your game because then you end up with two games, the patched and the unpatched version.

 Polonius wrote:

Audustum wrote:
You're looking at this wrong. Pre-8th complaints about GW: we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes. What's happening with GK and others right now? Ah, yes, we're ignored and have to wait forever for balance changes.

You want to say it's the most incremental improvement imaginable then you might be technically right, but GW is still falling into the exact same bad habits so improvement overall it ain't. The changes you list are the same kinda thing they would've done if they released a Warzone supplement about Space Marines and Chaos in 7th.

I think you make a good point that for your, as a GK player, you don't see an improvement. That's fine, and fair. But I think that's a very personal view. There are layoffs during strong economies, and rain in some cities while others are in drought. If all you see are your immediate surroundings, you might not notice the improvement.

And this is different than the attempts at patches in 7th with supplements. They aren't changing rules or detachments, but simply adjusting points, which is shockingly simple, but also new.

Look, I play IG. My army got nerfed all over the place. Everybody that plays me is going to have a better game now, simply due to a few points changes. That's new, and a sign of improvement.

You act like they never nerfed things in 6th/7th but that's just not true. It happened. 1 CA that missed quite a few boats (not just GK but they're a GREAT example) isn't a huge departure from that.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Not sure what frack people are smoking who say "because nothing isn't free." Yes, fixing your product usually is. If I buy anything and it's defective and requires an update to fix companies don't charge, how many firmware updates have you paid for any electronic you have? How many drivers have you paid for on your pc?

That depends. You want to run IBM? You pay through the nose. You want software as a service? You pay monthly.

This product isn't defective even if you wish it so.

You're spouting gibberish.

Danny slag wrote:
So if chapter approved fixes balance issues, but costs, not everyone will have it. Are the old points costs still valid then?
This is why you don't charge to patch your game because then you end up with two games, the patched and the unpatched version.

this is actually a solid question, but I think GW expects players to have all updated rules for their army.

In practice, I think it comes down to your local store/club/tournament/whatever. This information isn't exactly a secret. It's going to be tough for anybody to claim they can't get the price costs.

That said... that does imply the real problem with CA: new players. Right now, if a player wants to start the game, they'll likely pick Primaris or Death Guard, which are in the starter... and both would then need a codex as well as CA. That seems very awkward and unwieldy.

Pretty much every other game does their errata/points updates as a free download. That's generally an industry standard. GW is the lone outlier that I'm aware of in this respect.

Ruin wrote:

flyingthruwater wrote:
I think GW Marketing Division have played a corker with their whole "8th Ed will be the most balanced, most streamlined, easiest to pick up 40k ever!". 6+ months later and players are still arguing the facts over the above statement. Meanwhile GW continue being GW behind the marketing smokescreen.

Well played GW. Hope you don't get burned by the fallout when everyone catches on.

EDIT spelling

They don't need to worry with the sheer amount of the GW holy defence force ITT.

Only in this fething hobby....

Only in this community do we have useless posts riddled with conspiracy theories, flawed logic, and diatribes devoid of critical thinking.

You guys are just too clairvoyant though. You should get out of the hobby with this new found knowledge before it implodes.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Pretty much every other game does their errata/points updates as a free download. That's generally an industry standard. GW is the lone outlier that I'm aware of in this respect.

Yeah, now that I think about new players, I'm starting feel a concern about charging for the points costs. GW has surprised us in the past with pdfs of new rules, maybe they'll do that after everybody pre-orders/buys CA.

I like CA because GW can make significant game changes when stuff really doesn't work; this means 8th can only get better and better, and hopefully, many changes aren't knee jerk to the point of being stupid.

What I've seen of CA is all good, other than some of the FW point changes being a bit crazy on how high they were. They did significant reworks on smite spam unit's points so its not so easy and "auto-include". Also, from what I've read, its $25... which is nothing for anyone who plays this game. I'd prefer it be printed for $20, or be included as its own edition of White Dwarf and printed quarterly, but meh.

 Polonius wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Pretty much every other game does their errata/points updates as a free download. That's generally an industry standard. GW is the lone outlier that I'm aware of in this respect.

Yeah, now that I think about new players, I'm starting feel a concern about charging for the points costs. GW has surprised us in the past with pdfs of new rules, maybe they'll do that after everybody pre-orders/buys CA.

No, I doubt that. GW won't give away the cow for free on their flagship even if I'd like them to. Regardless i'll put my money where my mouth is and buy CA, because I want them to do regular updates while voicing my support to get points for free.

 Polonius wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
So if chapter approved fixes balance issues, but costs, not everyone will have it. Are the old points costs still valid then?
This is why you don't charge to patch your game because then you end up with two games, the patched and the unpatched version.

this is actually a solid question, but I think GW expects players to have all updated rules for their army.

In practice, I think it comes down to your local store/club/tournament/whatever. This information isn't exactly a secret. It's going to be tough for anybody to claim they can't get the price costs.

That said... that does imply the real problem with CA: new players. Right now, if a player wants to start the game, they'll likely pick Primaris or Death Guard, which are in the starter... and both would then need a codex as well as CA. That seems very awkward and unwieldy.

They wouldn't actually need them - the rules are in the starter set for both in a mini codex form. Similarly, if you buy a new box(if it has been reboxed for 8th), it will have the rules for the unit. Codexes are completely optional unless you play matched play.

I like the idea of having an annual central game update book (the GH has been great both times for AOS). Points updates should be provided for free though - essentially I paid for that when I bought my codex.

That said, it is just a £20 book and the points pages are so freely available and probably will be on battlescribe before release, if they haven't made it there already.

You're in a restaurant, enjoying your $50 soup, when the waiter comes out.
"I'm terribly sorry sir, but there's a dead rat in your soup. Don't worry though, we will remove it for only $25."

Guys, what if it's all a vast conspiracy to move us off of using points at all?

M.

Panzergraf wrote:
You're in a restaurant, enjoying your $50 soup, when the waiter comes out.
"I'm terribly sorry sir, but there's a dead rat in your soup. Don't worry though, we will remove it for only $25."

Totally not the same situation. Food = Pointless plastic models.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Panzergraf wrote:
You're in a restaurant, enjoying your $50 soup, when the waiter comes out.
"I'm terribly sorry sir, but there's a dead rat in your soup. Don't worry though, we will remove it for only $25."

Totally not the same situation. Food = Pointless plastic models.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Bingo.

A lot of people are comparing this to video games were they roll out patches for free to fix game breaking bugs. However, remember that millions of people bought these games, and the companies rely on people to continue playing and buying things such as DLC to increase the life and profitability of a game. Many people beat a game in a week, get rid of it, and move on.

With 40k, many people have invested hundreds (or thousands) into this game. While logically they COULD roll out everything in periodic free updates, which is sounds like they will do, Chapter Approved can be seen more as an "expansion + patch" because it does give us a lot of extra content on top of fixes to armies. As well, you need to realize from a business standpoint, printing a book with newly developed content needs to cost something. Your buying a physical product. I'm sure people would complain less if there was a $5 digital only copy you could get through Amazon, but I don't mind paying a little. Keeps GW running, and keeps your FLGS in business.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Pretty much every other game does their errata/points updates as a free download. That's generally an industry standard. GW is the lone outlier that I'm aware of in this respect.

What he said.

Having a printed, paper version is nice, and made sense in the 1990's, but today it should have been available as free PDF, with the book as a potential alternative containing additional content like the new scenarios. For instance, does this new supplement mean they will no longer update their FAQs and erratas?

 Zid wrote:

Bingo.

A lot of people are comparing this to video games were they roll out patches for free to fix game breaking bugs. However, remember that millions of people bought these games, and the companies rely on people to continue playing and buying things such as DLC to increase the life and profitability of a game. Many people beat a game in a week, get rid of it, and move on.

With 40k, many people have invested hundreds (or thousands) into this game. While logically they COULD roll out everything in periodic free updates, which is sounds like they will do, Chapter Approved can be seen more as an "expansion + patch" because it does give us a lot of extra content on top of fixes to armies. As well, you need to realize from a business standpoint, printing a book with newly developed content needs to cost something. Your buying a physical product. I'm sure people would complain less if there was a $5 digital only copy you could get through Amazon, but I don't mind paying a little. Keeps GW running, and keeps your FLGS in business.

But it doesn't need to be a physical product, that's just a decision they've made.

Everyone else in the boardgame and miniature business do these sort of things as free downloads. Like FFG, that's one of the reasons they're on such good terms with their fan-base. You can't really make the comparison to the digital games developers, and it ought to be sufficient that everyone else in the "physical" game industry do these things regularly and for free. I think we all agree a new book with extra scenarios should cost money, but we would have liked the CA-part to be stand-alone.

The balance changes are a patch, not an expansion. A codex would be an expansion. Rules for new models would be like a DLC.

I get that a printed book has to cost some money, but the balance changes should be available for free as a PDF.

Panzergraf wrote:
The balance changes are a patch, not an expansion. A codex would be an expansion. Rules for new models would be like a DLC.

I get that a printed book has to cost some money, but the balance changes should be available for free as a PDF.

In this case, GW chose to bundle the balance changes in with the expansion, i.e. the un-expanded game got 0 changes, but the expansion got all the expansion content + balance changes.

It'd be like if an MMO had one meta for free players that's been the same since release, and all the balance patches only changed things for the paid people (who I guess play on a different server or something).