Okay, at this point I've basically seen a fully leaked version of chapter approved and my only conclusion is this should 100% be a free pdf! At the very least the army points changes and new rules should have been a pdf! For my army only like 4 unit prices have changed (with a handful of weapons) and we got like 3 new rules (nothing significant enough to make me feel happy)... this in no way justifies me paying for a book that not only will be outdated in a few months but also has a bunch of crap about missions I'll never even bother to play (I don't feel happy about giving gw my money for this!) If you look at the overall effort put into chapter approved you should be outraged. However, gw knows we cannot not buy this because it slightly updates our armies (when in reality it feels engineered to disappoint us in preparation for the codex) as a lot of us are looking for the slightest rules changes to make our armies at least comparable to the codex stuff (because if we don't buy this it could be months before we get a game worth playing). I for one will actually skip this book and just hold out until the codex by painting. What's your opinions on your army changes and if this should be free?

(Jokes on the guys who told us Chapter Approved would fix everything).

I agree. If it had been a comprehensive review and rebalance of every codex unit then I would have been delighted to shell out for it. But it appears to be a rush-job that deals out a few needed adjustments along with a few random changes. It is not good enough.

Given how seemingly random most of the changes are, especially the FW changes (these are particularly incomprehensible), and with the huge numbers of units in need of help that got nothing relevant (or at all), I'm not particularly impressed with the effort.

Certainly not enough to want to rush out and pay real money for the book

 Vaktathi wrote:
Certainly not enough to want to rush out and pay real money for the book

Yeah, the point costs have been posted online, there's zero reason to pay for this book. And TBH there's very little reason to acknowledge the changes at all.

Seeing as GW Knew >40% of us would just be reading the points, and seeing as it's already been leaked.


What's the problem, exactly?

 malamis wrote:
Seeing as GW Knew >40% of us would just be reading the points, and seeing as it's already been leaked.


What's the problem, exactly?

The problem is that this should have been free all along and gw is willing to charge players for this crap. And we all just go along without it. In all honesty we kinda should stand up and not buy it. Vote with our wallets and show gw that they shouldn't try this again. It's one thing to overcharge us for plastic but now they are overcharging us for paper!

So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?


GW isn't a new start-up company which can factor in free rules releases into their pricing structure and which likely has the rules writer also being the company manager or any one of a half dozen other roles in the company. GW is a larger company with larger overheads who are making a larger investment in staff time to refine rules after the community has requested/screamed for them.

Also we already know that after this big hump that is the initial release of 8th edition they'll shift toward a 6 month review pattern.

Heck at this stage we don't even know if GW is even going to release a 9th edition. They could easily just make 8th edition THE edition and shift into a continual rolling update of balance adjustments; collating it all together every few years with updated codex releases (which also come with fluff and such too).

I kind of agree. The points changes should be freely available. The rest, sure make it in the book to buy.

I think that the points changes and other errata should be free. Any new fluff or missions I'd be fine paying for or not getting.

But yeah-making us pay for fixing your mistakes feels kinda rude.

Honestly, with so little meaningful changes I feel like I'm paying full price for a demo! And then paying full price again for the game! In this time frame where most companies offer free patches and updates I feel ripped off more than usual (and that's saying something). I'm not upset with the changes, just upset gw is trying to get me to pay for them.

paying for the update narks a bit as you need the originals still as well.

Had CA included complete replacement pages for all the point values then it would actually be useful - as it can use the codex for the rules and allowed options then use CA for the points.

Does it matter when you'll find all the relevant points changes online anyway? Honestly? Get the book if you want the scenarios and VDR land raider rules, etc.

I don't have a reason to buy it anyway since it has no changes to Blood Angels.

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?

I would definitely pay for better and continuously tweaked rules, but I am not willing to pay for a half-assed low effort job.

pismakron wrote:

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?

I would definitely pay for better and continuously tweaked rules, but I am not willing to pay for a half-assed low effort job.

Agreed. These changes are not particularly well done.

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?

Where are the better rules for Sisters, exactly? Two of our better units got nerfed rather nastily, and it's not like we're top tier right now-- you don't see us winning tournaments. And Orks barely even got touched, though what did get buffed badly needed it-- you're not gonna see a huge wave of Ork wins. Codex Marines got an enormous, unprecedented buff, but a lot of other armies barely even got touched, or worse got nerfed-- and several armies didn't get touched at all.

So you want me to pay for a book that does nothing but make my army worse when it's not even all that powerful to begin with, or that doesn't even include my army in it... while the book buffs already strong armies to hell and back?

I mean damn, don't get me wrong. The primaris changes were for the most part needed. But lots of other units and even whole armies were flat out overlooked. If, as it seems, all they really wanted to do is make primaris cheaper, they could have done that with a FAQ and not charged for it.

Well stands to reason that armies without full new codex are not going to be fully up to speed as yet; that's a waiting game sadly as its always been - the only difference is that this time around you likely only have to wait a year before its finished rather than waiting for IF your army got a new codex.

At this point I'm still at a "if" for Sisters. People talk about them getting one, but have no evidence they will, never mind any evidence they'll get new minis. That takes effort that GW could be giving to primaris marines.

True Sisters could still be hit or miss on a new codex; or they might be rolled into another combined release with another faction.

That said they are still marines and the largest female based faction for 40K so that goes in their favour. If GW wanted another female focused faction then it would be more sensible to bolster the Sisters rather than try another.

 lolman1c wrote:
Okay, at this point I've basically seen a fully leaked version of chapter approved and my only conclusion is this should 100% be a free pdf! At the very least the army points changes and new rules should have been a pdf! For my army only like 4 unit prices have changed (with a handful of weapons) and we got like 3 new rules (nothing significant enough to make me feel happy)... this in no way justifies me paying for a book that not only will be outdated in a few months but also has a bunch of crap about missions I'll never even bother to play (I don't feel happy about giving gw my money for this!) If you look at the overall effort put into chapter approved you should be outraged. However, gw knows we cannot not buy this because it slightly updates our armies (when in reality it feels engineered to disappoint us in preparation for the codex) as a lot of us are looking for the slightest rules changes to make our armies at least comparable to the codex stuff (because if we don't buy this it could be months before we get a game worth playing). I for one will actually skip this book and just hold out until the codex by painting. What's your opinions on your army changes and if this should be free?

(Jokes on the guys who told us Chapter Approved would fix everything).

No, you haven't. You've seen 16 pages leaked on reddit. Chapter Approved isn't just points changes

 Overread wrote:
That said they are still marines

No they aren't. They are explicitly and specifically not marines. They are ordinary humans.

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?


GW isn't a new start-up company which can factor in free rules releases into their pricing structure and which likely has the rules writer also being the company manager or any one of a half dozen other roles in the company. GW is a larger company with larger overheads who are making a larger investment in staff time to refine rules after the community has requested/screamed for them.

Also we already know that after this big hump that is the initial release of 8th edition they'll shift toward a 6 month review pattern.

Heck at this stage we don't even know if GW is even going to release a 9th edition. They could easily just make 8th edition THE edition and shift into a continual rolling update of balance adjustments; collating it all together every few years with updated codex releases (which also come with fluff and such too).

Seeing as Grey Knights didn't GET any notable balance support I can say yes, yes I am fully comfortable not buying this. Pass.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Okay, at this point I've basically seen a fully leaked version of chapter approved and my only conclusion is this should 100% be a free pdf! At the very least the army points changes and new rules should have been a pdf! For my army only like 4 unit prices have changed (with a handful of weapons) and we got like 3 new rules (nothing significant enough to make me feel happy)... this in no way justifies me paying for a book that not only will be outdated in a few months but also has a bunch of crap about missions I'll never even bother to play (I don't feel happy about giving gw my money for this!) If you look at the overall effort put into chapter approved you should be outraged. However, gw knows we cannot not buy this because it slightly updates our armies (when in reality it feels engineered to disappoint us in preparation for the codex) as a lot of us are looking for the slightest rules changes to make our armies at least comparable to the codex stuff (because if we don't buy this it could be months before we get a game worth playing). I for one will actually skip this book and just hold out until the codex by painting. What's your opinions on your army changes and if this should be free?

(Jokes on the guys who told us Chapter Approved would fix everything).

No, you haven't. You've seen 16 pages leaked on reddit. Chapter Approved isn't just points changes

I was about to post the same thing.

There's more content to use than just point adjustments. Do I agree with all of them? Absolutely not. Am I okay with some of them? Sure. At least it'll take less time to adjust everything this time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?


GW isn't a new start-up company which can factor in free rules releases into their pricing structure and which likely has the rules writer also being the company manager or any one of a half dozen other roles in the company. GW is a larger company with larger overheads who are making a larger investment in staff time to refine rules after the community has requested/screamed for them.

Also we already know that after this big hump that is the initial release of 8th edition they'll shift toward a 6 month review pattern.

Heck at this stage we don't even know if GW is even going to release a 9th edition. They could easily just make 8th edition THE edition and shift into a continual rolling update of balance adjustments; collating it all together every few years with updated codex releases (which also come with fluff and such too).

Seeing as Grey Knights didn't GET any notable balance support I can say yes, yes I am fully comfortable not buying this. Pass.

The regular Terminators DID get a hefty 5 point cut. Thats a step up from having went up 2 from Index to Codex. Still annoyed on no Purifier fix myself.

Did they say something about a living codex that will be updated free.... Or was that AoS?

OgreChubbs wrote:
Did they say something about a living codex that will be updated free.... Or was that AoS?

I don't recall this at all. I am sure Games Workshop didn't say this, but someone thinking that is what GW should do, and just got turned around that they said they would. They don't even do this for Age of Sigmar. You want updated points, you need to buy the latest General Handbook.

Playing devils advocate here, there hasn't been anything yet to say that they won't release the points as a free pdf / errata like they have for previous units.

And even if they don't. Each faction has a small table you can easily take a photo of. Hell, the leaks are already all over imgur and are known already.

Things like Planetstrike, Stronghold Assault, tons of new stratagems for those types of games, new missions, new campaign/ladder rules is justifiably a supplement and is more than fair to be charged for.

Yeah, I'm fine paying for the new rules, missions, apoc, campaign, etc. That's a supplement.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the points changes for free, like in their errata sections, but as others have said:

A) They haven't said they won't release points changes as a PDF. They may well do so.

B) Everyone already knows the points changes for free via leaks, so there's not really much to complain about.

I'm personally happy to pick it up for the campaign and apoc ideas.

The changes are overall very good. Should´ve been free, as some clearly broken stuff (especially FW stuff: aertos and malefic lords f.ex.) got fixed. Chainfists and powerfists are now back in the game. Drop pods got a much needed points reduction (maybe not enough).

You know this thing only costs 20 quid?

 Hollow wrote:
You know this thing only costs 20 quid?

You know, that was my response to people when they were grumbling about indexes as new codexes were rolled out much quicker than many expected.

But, were I to buy CA, which is looking pretty shakey right now, we're talking

New Rules £35
New Index £15
New FW Index £15
New Codex £25
CA £20.

So that's potentially £110 on rules in less than 6 months for one army. Daemons are due shortly and if I want to be able to play them, then that's another £25.

"Just get it from Reddit" isn't really a valid counter, as "just take it" can be applied to pretty much anything, and I always buy at discount, but that only saves so much.

$150 still isn't very much, especially stretched out over 6 months.

M.

(I still think point corrections should be free, because they're errata. Also removes one possible excuse for a player not having updated their list.)

 Infantryman wrote:
$150 still isn't very much, especially stretched out over 6 months.

M.

And if you're not making a ton of money, so your leisure dollars per month is $30?

That's over 80% of your money just on rules right there.

If they release a free PDF _After_ CA has come out, I'll be pretty pissy...
If they release one after pre-orders have gone live, I'm still going to be pissy.

Buy this book! It has essential points changes in! [And other stuff you didn't want much.]

Lol. Jokes on you! The point changes are free. Thanks for the money, chump!

If they were going to release the points for free, telling us in advance would have been the only fair move.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
$150 still isn't very much, especially stretched out over 6 months.

M.

And if you're not making a ton of money, so your leisure dollars per month is $30?

That's over 80% of your money just on rules right there.

I'm not one for dictating people how to live their lives, but if your leisure dollars are $30/mo, you have bigger issues ongoing.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
$150 still isn't very much, especially stretched out over 6 months.

Oh pull the other one.

This isn't about absolute cost, it's about relative cost. Show me another game which would require this much spend for just the rules with no components or game aids?

 Infantryman wrote:
$150 still isn't very much, especially stretched out over 6 months.

M.

(I still think point corrections should be free, because they're errata. Also removes one possible excuse for a player not having updated their list.)

Not everyone is as fortunate as you with disposable income.

- In before "well this is an expensive hobby so too bad"

The points updates should probably be freely available, since it's a replacement to an item people have already purchased. But from what we've seen that's a tiny fraction of what's in the book. The other stuff like new scenarios, campaign rules, custom vehicle rules, etc should earn them money if it's good.

I think what people are mad about is the bundling, the feeling like if they want the balance pass they are going to have to buy the other stuff regardless of interest or quality. The truth is the people who buy the book will at least be somewhat interested in the other content, because if you are not interested in the content you'll just get the point updates from battlescribe.

 Grimgold wrote:

I think what people are mad about is the bundling, the feeling like if they want the balance pass they are going to have to buy the other stuff regardless of interest or quality. The truth is the people who buy the book will at least be somewhat interested in the other content, because if you are not interested in the content you'll just get the point updates from battlescribe.

Most have jumped the gun and assumed that the point values won't be provided by Errata/FAQ. They might not, and if they don't and all someone is interested in is the point changes only, you can already view them online so print it out and stick it into your codex and be happy.

EDIT: Not directly pointed at you, but they in general

 Melissia wrote:

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?

Where are the better rules for Sisters, exactly? Two of our better units got nerfed rather nastily, and it's not like we're top tier right now-- you don't see us winning tournaments. And Orks barely even got touched, though what did get buffed badly needed it-- you're not gonna see a huge wave of Ork wins. Codex Marines got an enormous, unprecedented buff, but a lot of other armies barely even got touched, or worse got nerfed-- and several armies didn't get touched at all.

So you want me to pay for a book that does nothing but make my army worse when it's not even all that powerful to begin with, or that doesn't even include my army in it... while the book buffs already strong armies to hell and back?

I mean damn, don't get me wrong. The primaris changes were for the most part needed. But lots of other units and even whole armies were flat out overlooked. If, as it seems, all they really wanted to do is make primaris cheaper, they could have done that with a FAQ and not charged for it.

Wait, where's this "enormous, unprecedented buff" for codex marines? Guilliman, Razorbacks, and Stormravens all got nerfed. You can argue that they didn't get nerfed enough (I'd probably say that about Guilliman personally) but they definitely didn't get buffed.

They throw all sorts of cool stuff into these books and people cut out the 6 pages of points changes and never look at it again, SMH.

If you don't want the rest of the book, save the pages that leaked, or wait for battlescribe to update.

It's cool, I tend to think they won't add it as an errata/FAQ, no reason to waste book pages on it if you are going to put it online for free. It's also the "Killer App" that the old chapter approved were missing, the lack of which caused them to sell so poorly.

It will be a 30 buck book once a year that acts as a balance pass. To Be clear I'm willing to spend 30 bucks a year for GW to take an active hand at balance even if I don't get a physical book out of the process. The fact I will get a book and it will have some nonsense rules for narrative I might use for a chuckle while playing beerhammer is just icing on the cake.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
If they release a free PDF _After_ CA has come out, I'll be pretty pissy...
If they release one after pre-orders have gone live, I'm still going to be pissy.

Buy this book! It has essential points changes in! [And other stuff you didn't want much.]

Lol. Jokes on you! The point changes are free. Thanks for the money, chump!

If they were going to release the points for free, telling us in advance would have been the only fair move.

Did GW release them for free? It's my understanding that people got copies early and leaked them, presumably without GW permission.

I don't personally mind paying for balance changes in order for GW to keep it up.

It's not about how much money you have. It's about not being a allowing yourself to get gouged for a substandard product. It leaves a poor taste in the mouth of the customer and dissuades new people from the hobby. If they were smart, they would be thinking about making sure that the barrier of entry stays low.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?

Where are the better rules for Sisters, exactly? Two of our better units got nerfed rather nastily, and it's not like we're top tier right now-- you don't see us winning tournaments. And Orks barely even got touched, though what did get buffed badly needed it-- you're not gonna see a huge wave of Ork wins. Codex Marines got an enormous, unprecedented buff, but a lot of other armies barely even got touched, or worse got nerfed-- and several armies didn't get touched at all.

So you want me to pay for a book that does nothing but make my army worse when it's not even all that powerful to begin with, or that doesn't even include my army in it... while the book buffs already strong armies to hell and back?

I mean damn, don't get me wrong. The primaris changes were for the most part needed. But lots of other units and even whole armies were flat out overlooked. If, as it seems, all they really wanted to do is make primaris cheaper, they could have done that with a FAQ and not charged for it.

Wait, where's this "enormous, unprecedented buff" for codex marines? Guilliman, Razorbacks, and Stormravens all got nerfed. You can argue that they didn't get nerfed enough (I'd probably say that about Guilliman personally) but they definitely didn't get buffed.

Melissia is doing something called 'creative interpretation of the truth' here.

The 2 units she's talking about are Celestine, who stayed exactly the same points but had her cost shifted from her gemini to herself, which is 10000000000% fair and punishes only NON SoB armies that take her.

The other was a repressor, which was easily the best transport in the game (even including the Stormraven) and was somehow only 90 pts despite being better than tranports 2x more expensive by an enormous margin. It's now 110, making it 7pts more expensive than our second cheapest immolator loadout, which is still a bit generous tbh.

On the awesome side, exorcists were made a cheap, solid backline piece to help dealing with heavy infantey (sisters weak point this edition) We saw drops in pistol weapons and melee weapons that heavily improve seraphim/canonesses, gained a relic that makes canonesses pretty dam dangerous for 58pts and a strategem that makes killing any of our characters stupidly dangerous. We came out the best of any of the armies that were really, really good before.(If you're not winning with sisters it's on you, not the army.)

Flipside, the primaris buffs.

EVERY UNIT THAT SAW BUFFS IN PRIMARIS MARINE ARMIES WAS UNUSABELY TERRIBLE BEFORE AND AREN'T ALL THAT GREAT NOW.

Pure primaris armies make 8thed Grey Knights look like 7th edition Craftworld Eldar. They're TERRIBLE. The hellblaster is easily the best primaris units and they're STILL worse than standard devastators/sternguard. Primaris marines were quietly the worst army in the game and all this change does is put them on par with Necrons/0Commander Tau/Grey Knights. That's IT.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
$150 still isn't very much, especially stretched out over 6 months.

Oh pull the other one.

This isn't about absolute cost, it's about relative cost. Show me another game which would require this much spend for just the rules with no components or game aids?

GW: it was our intent to provide players with a sense of acomplishment and pride for buying 3 books......

No, because I am buying it for the campaign rules, cities of death missions, planetstrike missions, apocalypse special rules, fortification dataslates, 6 new eternal war missions, 6 new maelstrom missions, AND the point changes.

Only thing I'm not worried about at all is the landraider design rules, and that is going to be fun for three of my buddies anyway. Totally worth $35 bucks, in my opinion.

 Overread wrote:
GW isn't a new start-up company which can factor in free rules releases into their pricing structure and which likely has the rules writer also being the company manager or any one of a half dozen other roles in the company. GW is a larger company with larger overheads who are making a larger investment in staff time to refine rules after the community has requested/screamed for them.

Big companies have started to favour free rules method as it's been steadily increasing sales.

Heck at this stage we don't even know if GW is even going to release a 9th edition. They could easily just make 8th edition THE edition and shift into a continual rolling update of balance adjustments; collating it all together every few years with updated codex releases (which also come with fluff and such too).

Yea right. GW has said this "THE edition and no more eva!" pretty much every edition. You can bet your house and first born child that there will be 9th

edit: Disclaimer: By 9th I mean next edition. Juuuust in case GW does apple/power armour and next edition is actually called 10th

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
You know this thing only costs 20 quid?

You know, that was my response to people when they were grumbling about indexes as new codexes were rolled out much quicker than many expected.

But, were I to buy CA, which is looking pretty shakey right now, we're talking

New Rules £35
New Index £15
New FW Index £15
New Codex £25
CA £20.

So that's potentially £110 on rules in less than 6 months for one army. Daemons are due shortly and if I want to be able to play them, then that's another £25.

"Just get it from Reddit" isn't really a valid counter, as "just take it" can be applied to pretty much anything, and I always buy at discount, but that only saves so much.

I agree. Imagine an army that still doesn't have a codex yet like Orks or, even a better example, SW. A player must buy the index and CA which will be completely invalidated with the future release of the codex. But CA gave them some buffs, even significant ones to the wolves, so those players are tempted to buy the book. Of course you may find the leaked pages on the internet but it's illegal to post them on a site and even if everyone does that I'm not ok in suggesting: find those pages on internet and don't buy the book. It's essentially like saying: don't buy the movie's dvd, download the torrent from a site.

 Blackie wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
You know this thing only costs 20 quid?

You know, that was my response to people when they were grumbling about indexes as new codexes were rolled out much quicker than many expected.

But, were I to buy CA, which is looking pretty shakey right now, we're talking

New Rules £35
New Index £15
New FW Index £15
New Codex £25
CA £20.

So that's potentially £110 on rules in less than 6 months for one army. Daemons are due shortly and if I want to be able to play them, then that's another £25.

"Just get it from Reddit" isn't really a valid counter, as "just take it" can be applied to pretty much anything, and I always buy at discount, but that only saves so much.

I agree. Imagine an army that still doesn't have a codex yet like Orks or, even a better example, SW. A player must buy the index and CA which will be completely invalidated with the future release of the codex. But CA gave them some buffs, even significant ones to the wolves, so those players are tempted to buy the book. Of course you may find the leaked pages on the internet but it's illegal to post them on a site and even if everyone does that I'm not ok in suggesting: find those pages on internet and don't buy the book. It's essentially like saying: don't buy the movie's dvd, download the torrent from a site.

Piracy doesn't decrease sales actually, there is a research

https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/22/eu-suppressed-study-piracy-no-sales-impact/


People that have money and want to support developers buy anyway, those that can't - don't, regardless of the option to torrent

We are all aware that piracy is illegal and not condoned by GW in any way, right? "You can just pirate it" does not help at all.
I'm getting quite put off by this "buy another book, buy another book"; I'm being asked to spend money to use a product I've already paid for.

Overread wrote:So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?
GW isn't a new start-up company which can factor in free rules releases into their pricing structure and which likely has the rules writer also being the company manager or any one of a half dozen other roles in the company. GW is a larger company with larger overheads who are making a larger investment in staff time to refine rules after the community has requested/screamed for them.

As a "not a start-up" I expect better rules than smaller companies, but the big company has dedicated staff doing a worse job apparently.

Melissia wrote:

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?

Where are the better rules for Sisters, exactly? Two of our better units got nerfed rather nastily, and it's not like we're top tier right now-- you don't see us winning tournaments. And Orks barely even got touched, though what did get buffed badly needed it-- you're not gonna see a huge wave of Ork wins. Codex Marines got an enormous, unprecedented buff, but a lot of other armies barely even got touched, or worse got nerfed-- and several armies didn't get touched at all.

Overread wrote:Well stands to reason that armies without full new codex are not going to be fully up to speed as yet; that's a waiting game sadly as its always been - the only difference is that this time around you likely only have to wait a year before its finished rather than waiting for IF your army got a new codex.

This kind of thinking is awful and entirely justified with GW. Armies are worse than those that have gotten their thing in the next round of rules, so one has to keep buying whatever GW throws out.
"Here's a book while we get your next book sorted (hope you didn't expect to use it much) and now here's a book for those in the back of the line!" Don't stop paying us to wait if you want to have your army up to par!

Azreal13 wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
$150 still isn't very much, especially stretched out over 6 months.

Oh pull the other one.
This isn't about absolute cost, it's about relative cost. Show me another game which would require this much spend for just the rules with no components or game aids?

Some of us don't have that privilege or exchange rate. $150 is enough to buy all I need for Malifaux or Infinity. Nice rulebooks too, but you can download it if you don't want the hard copy

Annual supplement?
Malifaux cards get an errata (free to download) and Infinity Army (the official army builder website that links to the Corus Belli's website, forum and International Tournament System; so you can just upload your list to events) gets updated when things get revised. Also both of those companies bring out a new (also free to download) tournament pack for each year, with rules tweaks and a set of scenarios.
While GW can't even balance their fething games to respectable degree.

 Dovis wrote:

People that have money and want to support developers buy anyway, those that can't - don't, regardless of the option to torrent

A research isn't the absolute truth though and it can't be applied to all fields.

The majority of people that buy something don't do that to support developers but because they enjoy what they're buying. I cannot speak for the entire world but here in Italy movies DVD/Blurays don't sell anymore (in fact stores like Blockbuster closed pretty much in the entire country) but cinemas have never been so crowded, even if the standard quality of movies is certainly worse than the previous decades. That's because you can replace a dvd/bluray with a dowloaded file but you can't replace the cinema atmosphere for free. For the same reason you can download GW rules/book but you can't have the miniatures for free.

Since CA does only have a few pages of rules/points changes and many players bought it only because of them, IMHO it should have a different cost, like 50% cheaper. Or maybe it shouldn't have any rules and points changes, those ones should be released for free like regular FAQs.

Basically, there's nothing wrong with charging for the actual content. The problem is charging for the point updates, which that section (and ONLY that section) should be made available for free. The rest of the book can require you to buy the book; that's fine. But unlike GH2017, which had points for everything including adjusted points, this is ONLY adjusted points, you need this book AND your codex to get all the points. It's literally an errata/FAQ behind a paywall because GW can get away with doing it.

Wayniac wrote:
Basically, there's nothing wrong with charging for the actual content. The problem is charging for the point updates, which that section (and ONLY that section) should be made available for free. The rest of the book can require you to buy the book; that's fine. But unlike GH2017, which had points for everything including adjusted points, this is ONLY adjusted points, you need this book AND your codex to get all the points. It's literally an errata/FAQ behind a paywall because GW can get away with doing it.

This is very well said. I agree.

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?


GW isn't a new start-up company which can factor in free rules releases into their pricing structure and which likely has the rules writer also being the company manager or any one of a half dozen other roles in the company. GW is a larger company with larger overheads who are making a larger investment in staff time to refine rules after the community has requested/screamed for them.

Also we already know that after this big hump that is the initial release of 8th edition they'll shift toward a 6 month review pattern.

Heck at this stage we don't even know if GW is even going to release a 9th edition. They could easily just make 8th edition THE edition and shift into a continual rolling update of balance adjustments; collating it all together every few years with updated codex releases (which also come with fluff and such too).

We do pay for working rules and rule patches, every time we buy a $600 army. No other game company charges for rule fixes.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Wait, where's this "enormous, unprecedented buff" for codex marines? Guilliman, Razorbacks, and Stormravens all got nerfed.

I'm aware of this, yes. But are you aware that nearly every other unit in the book got buffed? That's on top of buffs they ALREADY received going from index to codex. So unless you're one of those scrubs who think that those three units are the only good units in the book, my statement stands.

 Melissia wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Wait, where's this "enormous, unprecedented buff" for codex marines? Guilliman, Razorbacks, and Stormravens all got nerfed.

I'm aware of this, yes. But are you aware that nearly every other unit in the book got buffed? That's on top of buffs they ALREADY received going from index to codex. So unless you're one of those scrubs who think that those three units are the only good units in the book, my statement stands.

What other amazeballs units do SM have? Girlyman, stormravens and asscanbacks were about it. Primaris? Garbage. Tacticals? Still useless. ASM? Still bad. Devs? Better than they have been, but not award winning, and still a bunch of T4/3+ models which aren't exactly hard to kill, even in cover.

While SM aren't bottom tier like Necrons/tau, they're not top tier without those three units you mentioned.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
You know this thing only costs 20 quid?

You know, that was my response to people when they were grumbling about indexes as new codexes were rolled out much quicker than many expected.

But, were I to buy CA, which is looking pretty shakey right now, we're talking

New Rules £35
New Index £15
New FW Index £15
New Codex £25
CA £20.

So that's potentially £110 on rules in less than 6 months for one army. Daemons are due shortly and if I want to be able to play them, then that's another £25.

"Just get it from Reddit" isn't really a valid counter, as "just take it" can be applied to pretty much anything, and I always buy at discount, but that only saves so much.

Do you really need all of that? From what I remember 8th was being hyped up as way cheaper ruleswise.

pm713 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
You know this thing only costs 20 quid?

You know, that was my response to people when they were grumbling about indexes as new codexes were rolled out much quicker than many expected.

But, were I to buy CA, which is looking pretty shakey right now, we're talking

New Rules £35
New Index £15
New FW Index £15
New Codex £25
CA £20.

So that's potentially £110 on rules in less than 6 months for one army. Daemons are due shortly and if I want to be able to play them, then that's another £25.

"Just get it from Reddit" isn't really a valid counter, as "just take it" can be applied to pretty much anything, and I always buy at discount, but that only saves so much.

Do you really need all of that? From what I remember 8th was being hyped up as way cheaper ruleswise.

Yes, you do. You definitely need the BRB, if you wanted to play immediately and/or have any old units, you need the Index, if you have any Forgeworld models, you need the Forgeworld Index, if your Codex came out before CA, you need both the Dex and CA.

Lol I'm a space marine player and as soon as they said indexes were temporary I said screw that and never bothered.
Even as cheap as they were it wasn't worth buying, cause after all space marines are the favourite. All GW did was not tell people that the space marine codex was coming out a month later so they could make money twice for the same rules.

And that's a thing I really hate about non space marine players "blah blah you guys get allll the new models!"
Do you think I wanted primaris? Do you think I like new units coming out at a steady pace that makes you have to look at everything again?
Things not even always that good, but still gets more attention than the stuff that needs to be changed

 Wolfblade wrote:
While SM aren't bottom tier like Necrons/tau, they're not top tier without those three units you mentioned.

Do you have a point somewhere in that bucket of whine? Guard aren't top tier without their artillery, which got nerfed-- and then almost all of their other, not quite top tier units got nerfed alongside the artillery, a couple of which got nerfed in to uselessness. You just called 99% of your codex trash.

And yet people accuse me of being the marine-hater. Jesus Fething Christ....

I can't help but compare it to x-wing, the starter is £25-£30 and any further rules come with the models.

All the FAQ are free and released on a regular basis.

Gw on the other paw is going to charge you every six months to fix their mistakes.

And let's make no bones about it this book is meant to be fixing stuff they messed up.

Any idiot should of known this was already shaky ground and made sure stuff that needed help got it to make the pill less bitter.

 JNAProductions wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
You know this thing only costs 20 quid?

You know, that was my response to people when they were grumbling about indexes as new codexes were rolled out much quicker than many expected.

But, were I to buy CA, which is looking pretty shakey right now, we're talking

New Rules £35
New Index £15
New FW Index £15
New Codex £25
CA £20.

So that's potentially £110 on rules in less than 6 months for one army. Daemons are due shortly and if I want to be able to play them, then that's another £25.

"Just get it from Reddit" isn't really a valid counter, as "just take it" can be applied to pretty much anything, and I always buy at discount, but that only saves so much.

Do you really need all of that? From what I remember 8th was being hyped up as way cheaper ruleswise.

Yes, you do. You definitely need the BRB, if you wanted to play immediately and/or have any old units, you need the Index, if you have any Forgeworld models, you need the Forgeworld Index, if your Codex came out before CA, you need both the Dex and CA.

Damn. I remember just needing two or three things. Not about five.

pm713 wrote:

Do you really need all of that? From what I remember 8th was being hyped up as way cheaper ruleswise.

It was and it could have been, but GW decided not to.

 DarkBlack wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Do you really need all of that? From what I remember 8th was being hyped up as way cheaper ruleswise.

It was and it could have been, but GW decided not to.

Well GW possess wisdom and sight beyond our knowledge....or they just make weird decisions.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
While SM aren't bottom tier like Necrons/tau, they're not top tier without those three units you mentioned.

Do you have a point somewhere in that bucket of whine? Guard aren't top tier without their artillery, which got nerfed-- and then almost all of their other, not quite top tier units got nerfed alongside the artillery, a couple of which got nerfed in to uselessness. You just called 99% of your codex trash.

And yet people accuse me of being the marine-hater. Jesus Fething Christ....

And you avoided the point and have yet to point at any specific unit that got a massive buff and is suddenly became the new hot thing for SM to take that'll repalce assbacks/girlyman/stormravens

And so what? Necrons and Tau ARE bottom tier. outside of gun drones/commanders/y'vahra Tau are pretty bad, but that's not relevant really, I was just using it as an example.

(also, guard arty didn't get nerfed, the basilisk stayed the same, while the earthshaker arty platform got nerfed iirc)

I'm just curious, out of all the people commenting here, how many of you have actually bought or fully read Chapter Approved 2017?

The one point I will agree on is that the changes made to the Codices which have already been released should be included in an FAQ. But CA2017 contains more than a few points/balance changes.

Anyway, said my 2 pence, I'll get back to my painting.

I think the only stuff that should be free is the points, and maybe the semi-codex stuff if the codex is far enough out (like say 3+ months) otherwise just a waste of time really.

The price adjustments and the index expansions should have been free. Both are addendum to things we've already paid for, and in the case of the index expansions, are still patently incomplete.

Instead, GW holds them hostage by putting them with a full book. The adjustments (as awful as most of them are), expansions, and content of Chapter Approved itself would likely have been far better received had GW made that addendum content free.

The joke is that we all complain but 99% of you will buy CA rather than holding off until the codex. If CA sold poorly then it might make GW think twice.

Considering all I might need amounts to a couple of lines, I'll likely just copy the adjustments and expansions I actually intend on using from a copy someone else at the FLGS ends up buying onto a sheet of loose-leaf and calling it a day.

Audustum wrote:

 Overread wrote:
So after years of saying we'd pay for better rules and balance support from GW we'll turn around and say that, actually, we'd rather not?


GW isn't a new start-up company which can factor in free rules releases into their pricing structure and which likely has the rules writer also being the company manager or any one of a half dozen other roles in the company. GW is a larger company with larger overheads who are making a larger investment in staff time to refine rules after the community has requested/screamed for them.

Also we already know that after this big hump that is the initial release of 8th edition they'll shift toward a 6 month review pattern.

Heck at this stage we don't even know if GW is even going to release a 9th edition. They could easily just make 8th edition THE edition and shift into a continual rolling update of balance adjustments; collating it all together every few years with updated codex releases (which also come with fluff and such too).

Seeing as Grey Knights didn't GET any notable balance support I can say yes, yes I am fully comfortable not buying this. Pass.

Implying Grey Knights need balance support.

I just downloaded and printed the leaked points pages. All I care about. I refuse to pay for a couple pages of point updates when I already own the codex.

I've just been reading through the missions now, and although my gaming group pretty much exclusively plays Maelstrom, the new Eternal War missions seem great, especially the Resupply Drop and Scorched Earth missions.

Guys, the koolaid tastes fine.

You can count me as one of the people who bought chapter approved and is severely disappointed with it. Enough has been said about the poor points balancing and mediocre faction updates that I agree with but I want to talk quickly about how terrible the rest of the book is.

I was looking forward to new missions, new battlezones, new terrain rules, and Apocalypses and what I got was a bunch of copy pasted or half thought out rulesets..

Lets start with everything that I know is a copy paste job. All of the datasheets for fortifications are just copied from the Imperium 2 book so that's a good 10 pages of pointlessness. Then there is my favorite example, the Empyric storms which literally tell you to use the data cards they made for them in 7th edition. Guess I'm glad I kept my empyric storms deck although I wasn't really waiting for GW's permission to use it again. Most of the narrative missions are either direct copy pastes from other sources or so heavily influenced it makes you wonder why they didn't just copy and paste them.

Then there are the things that reek so much of low effort it's offensive. The "build your own land raider" is probably the worst offender in this category since any play group that will let you play with those rules probably would have been okay to let you slap 8 lascannons on your land raider to begin with. As if it wasn't insulting enough to give us rules that might as well have the 3rd edition "you can only take this with your opponents permission" tag on them,. but then they dedicate 9 pages of the book to that drivel.,

And then there are all the pages dedicated to "organizing events"like the ladder campaign and apocalypse games. I suppose there are probably some people who don't realize that you should find a place to play and tell people when to show up but I'm guessing those people probably aren't going to be nominated in their friend group to be organizing events anyways. I could be wrong as events in my area are fairly well organized but it probably could have just had a paragraph at the beginning section saying "have you ever been involved in a work meeting or school project.... just do that." What's worse is it doesn't even present any new rules for playing apocalypse games. It's literally just 8th edition but bigger and all three of the missions are actually the same mission (as far as objectives go.) Gee, I never would have thought of "each objective marker is worth a point and each titanic unit destroyed is a point.It. I guess you could mark that down for another copy paste from every apocalypse ever.

This whole thing is just such an obvious cash grab to me it makes me far angrier than anything they published in 7th edition. People complained about there being too many books in 7th to keep up but you didn't actually have to own many of those books. You could easily play the game with just the rule book and your faction codex. Everything you needed was between those two books and everything else was optional supplements. Could you imagine how Irate people would have been if they had published Curse of the Wulfen with mandatory points changes in it? People would have lost their minds over the blatant cash grab.

I was really hopeful for 8th edition and I still think it has the potential to be a good game system but this book is just so low effort it has really put me off from wanting to support GW for the moment. I for sure wont be buying next years chapter approved unless they really turn this rules release effort around.

Even after reading I had no idea how much was copy and paste untol I saw your post above. This is crazy! But I geuss it's GW so we'll just give them a pass...

Seriously though... this is like if Call Of Duty (I don't play that game so I'm guessing what they might do) brings out a patch that makes assualt rifles fire slightly faster but then charged everyone £20 to use them!

As I'm primarily a DKoK-player, I'm really on the fence here.

The point adjustments have already been leaked weeks ago, and from what I can gather, there's not much else I need to know, and as far as I can tell, there's nothing in this book that I want.

I suggest we all take part in the "Big Community Survey", there are several sections in it for feedback. I've already let them know I disapprove of being asked to pay for point adjustments, since I believe they should be available for free, and I invite you to do the same.

CA includes a lot of content, most of which most players will never use. I thinks it’s obvious that that content is padding to justify a $38 price. So you are in effect paying $38 for 3-4 pages if content you want, and 50+ pages most are indifferent to. I regret buying it

fithos wrote:
You can count me as one of the people who bought chapter approved and is severely disappointed with it. Enough has been said about the poor points balancing and mediocre faction updates that I agree with but I want to talk quickly about how terrible the rest of the book is.

I was looking forward to new missions, new battlezones, new terrain rules, and Apocalypses and what I got was a bunch of copy pasted or half thought out rulesets..

Lets start with everything that I know is a copy paste job. All of the datasheets for fortifications are just copied from the Imperium 2 book so that's a good 10 pages of pointlessness. Then there is my favorite example, the Empyric storms which literally tell you to use the data cards they made for them in 7th edition. Guess I'm glad I kept my empyric storms deck although I wasn't really waiting for GW's permission to use it again. Most of the narrative missions are either direct copy pastes from other sources or so heavily influenced it makes you wonder why they didn't just copy and paste them.

Then there are the things that reek so much of low effort it's offensive. The "build your own land raider" is probably the worst offender in this category since any play group that will let you play with those rules probably would have been okay to let you slap 8 lascannons on your land raider to begin with. As if it wasn't insulting enough to give us rules that might as well have the 3rd edition "you can only take this with your opponents permission" tag on them,. but then they dedicate 9 pages of the book to that drivel.,

And then there are all the pages dedicated to "organizing events"like the ladder campaign and apocalypse games. I suppose there are probably some people who don't realize that you should find a place to play and tell people when to show up but I'm guessing those people probably aren't going to be nominated in their friend group to be organizing events anyways. I could be wrong as events in my area are fairly well organized but it probably could have just had a paragraph at the beginning section saying "have you ever been involved in a work meeting or school project.... just do that." What's worse is it doesn't even present any new rules for playing apocalypse games. It's literally just 8th edition but bigger and all three of the missions are actually the same mission (as far as objectives go.) Gee, I never would have thought of "each objective marker is worth a point and each titanic unit destroyed is a point.It. I guess you could mark that down for another copy paste from every apocalypse ever.

This whole thing is just such an obvious cash grab to me it makes me far angrier than anything they published in 7th edition. People complained about there being too many books in 7th to keep up but you didn't actually have to own many of those books. You could easily play the game with just the rule book and your faction codex. Everything you needed was between those two books and everything else was optional supplements. Could you imagine how Irate people would have been if they had published Curse of the Wulfen with mandatory points changes in it? People would have lost their minds over the blatant cash grab.

I was really hopeful for 8th edition and I still think it has the potential to be a good game system but this book is just so low effort it has really put me off from wanting to support GW for the moment. I for sure wont be buying next years chapter approved unless they really turn this rules release effort around.

Well that's even worse than I thought its not always good to be right.

fithos wrote:
And then there are all the pages dedicated to "organizing events"like the ladder campaign and apocalypse games. I suppose there are probably some people who don't realize that you should find a place to play and tell people when to show up but I'm guessing those people probably aren't going to be nominated in their friend group to be organizing events anyways. I could be wrong as events in my area are fairly well organized but it probably could have just had a paragraph at the beginning section saying "have you ever been involved in a work meeting or school project.... just do that." What's worse is it doesn't even present any new rules for playing apocalypse games. It's literally just 8th edition but bigger and all three of the missions are actually the same mission (as far as objectives go.) Gee, I never would have thought of "each objective marker is worth a point and each titanic unit destroyed is a point.It. I guess you could mark that down for another copy paste from every apocalypse ever.

Are the non-apoc scenarios any good? That's literally the only thing I have any interest or need for. Though seeing we play custom scenarios most of the time mostly just as ideas for variety but better than nothing. Rest of the additional stuff sounds one I don't need and tournaments aren't my interest so the point updates I'll skip.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
$150 still isn't very much, especially stretched out over 6 months.

Oh pull the other one.

This isn't about absolute cost, it's about relative cost. Show me another game which would require this much spend for just the rules with no components or game aids?

I can't give you any examples beyond the one I know of: Infinity

To use the example of Infinity? There's a free army builder, free rules online...but basically no fluff exists to discuss the factions in-depth that is readily available for free. And they come down hard on people posting that stuff on their forums. When Human Sphere's second edition came out, we were told that we couldn't post pictures or retype the fluff on the forums for two months. There wasn't even spoilers to be concerned about. They just wanted to drive people to buy the books.
So if you wanted to read the fluff? You're paying $69 each for two different two book sets that give you the rules(with many, many errors that had to be errata'd...the rulebooks are basically useless two or three months after release because of errata/"clarifications") and fluff. That's $138USD for fluff.

Not counting if you want Campaign: Paradiso(which is a third fluff/gaming book that is outdated and slated to be replaced "Soon(tm)..." and no longer available from many webstores as CB isn't replacing it for them. That was another $50 or so book.) to round out the fluff material and know what's going on with the setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Yes, you do. You definitely need the BRB, if you wanted to play immediately and/or have any old units, you need the Index, if you have any Forgeworld models, you need the Forgeworld Index, if your Codex came out before CA, you need both the Dex and CA.

Just so we're clear:
It's not a super common occurrence that you need to bring the whole of the Index with you. In many cases it's a thing that you could literally cut out of the Index and put into your Codex as a sheet of paper.

You also only need Chapter Approved if playing Points. Power was untouched.

tneva82 wrote:

fithos wrote:
And then there are all the pages dedicated to "organizing events"like the ladder campaign and apocalypse games. I suppose there are probably some people who don't realize that you should find a place to play and tell people when to show up but I'm guessing those people probably aren't going to be nominated in their friend group to be organizing events anyways. I could be wrong as events in my area are fairly well organized but it probably could have just had a paragraph at the beginning section saying "have you ever been involved in a work meeting or school project.... just do that." What's worse is it doesn't even present any new rules for playing apocalypse games. It's literally just 8th edition but bigger and all three of the missions are actually the same mission (as far as objectives go.) Gee, I never would have thought of "each objective marker is worth a point and each titanic unit destroyed is a point.It. I guess you could mark that down for another copy paste from every apocalypse ever.

Are the non-apoc scenarios any good? That's literally the only thing I have any interest or need for. Though seeing we play custom scenarios most of the time mostly just as ideas for variety but better than nothing. Rest of the additional stuff sounds one I don't need and tournaments aren't my interest so the point updates I'll skip.

IMO the matched play missions are significantly better than the 8th edition book missions. Now if you always play ITC, ETC, NOVA etc. missions they may not be as much of a bid deal. Most of them are far more likely to encourage player interaction than the standard book missions which far too often encourage gunline + last turn objective grab. The one thing I wish they would have done away with is that tabling = auto win.

Breng77 wrote:
IMO the matched play missions are significantly better than the 8th edition book missions. Now if you always play ITC, ETC, NOVA etc. missions they may not be as much of a bid deal. Most of them are far more likely to encourage player interaction than the standard book missions which far too often encourage gunline + last turn objective grab. The one thing I wish they would have done away with is that tabling = auto win.

Well that's good.

Are there any asymmetric scenarios? Personal preference of mine.

I think the worst thing GW will conclude if CA sells poorly is not "we did that wrong but fundamentally the idea is sound" but rather "welp, yearly updates won't sell well. Time to call the whole thing off!"

Because making weird and inexplicable decisions seems to be a GW thing.

As a narrative player I give zero damns about the points section of CA and those might as well not exist for me anyway.

The points update make up about a handful of pages out of the entire book. There is a lot of material in CA that makes it worth buying.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think the worst thing GW will conclude if CA sells poorly is not "we did that wrong but fundamentally the idea is sound" but rather "welp, yearly updates won't sell well. Time to call the whole thing off!"

Because making weird and inexplicable decisions seems to be a GW thing.

They're a lot like that mathammer people. They look at numbers rather than the whole picture.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think the worst thing GW will conclude if CA sells poorly is not "we did that wrong but fundamentally the idea is sound" but rather "welp, yearly updates won't sell well. Time to call the whole thing off!"

Because making weird and inexplicable decisions seems to be a GW thing.

In the event of such a scenario (unlikely though it is) GW would actually have a failure in CA to compare to the success of AoS' General's Handbook - and yeah, at the prospect of a $30 yearly reinvestment commitment from all active players I expect they'd be more inclined to fix it than abandon the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
I can't help but compare it to x-wing, the starter is £25-£30 and any further rules come with the models.

All the FAQ are free and released on a regular basis.

Gw on the other paw is going to charge you every six months to fix their mistakes.

The thing about X-wing is that those rules that come with the new ships don't just apply to those ships, or even just that ship's faction, so someone playing X-wing competitively (or even just actively) is picking up 3-4 packs every wave, not necessarily ships they're going to fly, not including backtracking when former garbage gets buffed.

Its actually a pretty efficient money-maker.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think the worst thing GW will conclude if CA sells poorly is not "we did that wrong but fundamentally the idea is sound" but rather "welp, yearly updates won't sell well. Time to call the whole thing off!"

Because making weird and inexplicable decisions seems to be a GW thing.

In the event of such a scenario (unlikely though it is) GW would actually have a failure in CA to compare to the success of AoS' General's Handbook - and yeah, at the prospect of a $30 yearly reinvestment commitment from all active players I expect they'd be more inclined to fix it than abandon the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
I can't help but compare it to x-wing, the starter is £25-£30 and any further rules come with the models.

All the FAQ are free and released on a regular basis.

Gw on the other paw is going to charge you every six months to fix their mistakes.

The thing about X-wing is that those rules that come with the new ships don't just apply to those ships, or even just that ship's faction, so someone playing X-wing competitively (or even just actively) is picking up 3-4 packs every wave, not necessarily ships they're going to fly, not including backtracking when former garbage gets buffed.

Its actually a pretty efficient money-maker.

Only tournament players need everything I've never heard of anyone objecting to proxies in casual play because its super easy to find the cards rules be it on a wikki or a squad builder.

And yes it costs tournament players more but its still cheaper than 40k you can collect all three factions for the cost of one 40k army, mainly because your not forced into paying £100 just on rule books before you pick up a model.

All companies are there to make money its a given, what's important is perceived value.

I can spend £40-50 and have a full fleet for x-wing, I've spent far more but I could of stopped at wave four and still enjoy the game in a casual setting.

Even discounting the BRB I have to buy a codex to start a 40k army which is half the initial buy in of x-wing, then you might need CA meaning you've almost equalled the x-wing player and have yet to buy a model, then when you do buy one you can't instantly use it because you need to buy clippers and glue, then there's paint etc.

So when gw put out poor rules and have the nerve to charge that's salt in the wound for many of us.

tneva82 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
IMO the matched play missions are significantly better than the 8th edition book missions. Now if you always play ITC, ETC, NOVA etc. missions they may not be as much of a bid deal. Most of them are far more likely to encourage player interaction than the standard book missions which far too often encourage gunline + last turn objective grab. The one thing I wish they would have done away with is that tabling = auto win.

Well that's good.

Are there any asymmetric scenarios? Personal preference of mine.

Not really a mission summary would be

All have normal 3 secondaries

Eternal war 1 - 4 objectives. 2 within 12" of center and not near deployment zones, 1 in each players deployment zone. The one in your opponents deployment zone is worth the most, followed by neutral followed by your own. So to win you need to move out of your deployment zone. All scored end of game.

EW 2 - 6 objectives on turn 3 player 1 picks 3, 2 of which are removed at random. Then player 2 does so with the other 3. Then these are scored at game end

ew 3 -progressive objectives but you can destroy objectives in your opponents deployment zone if you gain control of them.

ew 4 - Progressive objectives + kill points

Ew5 - 3 progressive objectives on the centerline of the table (more or less) - characters get obsec and bonuses for controlling, for multiple turns.

ew 6 - 3 objectives 1 at table center, army split into 3 parts and randomly determine which one gets to start on the table, the others come in later



The rest are maelstrom with interesting twists on cards.

Yeah points update probably should of and could of been free. but its really not that big of a deal.

its not that big of a purchase twice a year. and its not like half of the people here isnt just going to cheese it out of battle scribe anyway.

the missions seem cool.

Ok, so most of the CSM weapons updates match the SM weapons, but the CSM Chainfist droppped to 12 while the SM Chainfist got no change staying at 22. That seems like an oversight.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Ok, so most of the CSM weapons updates match the SM weapons, but the CSM Chainfist droppped to 12 while the SM Chainfist got no change staying at 22. That seems like an oversight.

Well it could be that or they decided to do so based on what units and models can actually take a chainfist. or based on the lack of actual options for chaos compared to SM

I think the points changes should be free in a pdf. But anything else is ok.

For £20 GBP I'm more than happy to pick this up mainly for the missions and battle zones. It's a yearly release and that is fine for 12 months. I can certainly agree that the points should be a free download but does it really honestly matter?

 BlackLobster wrote:
For £20 GBP I'm more than happy to pick this up mainly for the missions and battle zones. It's a yearly release and that is fine for 12 months. I can certainly agree that the points should be a free download but does it really honestly matter?

Yes, because now everyone who wants the points, and just the points has to pay for another entire book, on top of the codex, core rules, and potentially a FW index and regular index.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
For £20 GBP I'm more than happy to pick this up mainly for the missions and battle zones. It's a yearly release and that is fine for 12 months. I can certainly agree that the points should be a free download but does it really honestly matter?

Yes, because now everyone who wants the points, and just the points has to pay for another entire book, on top of the codex, core rules, and potentially a FW index and regular index.

Haha suckers! I'm way ahead of you!

If you play Tau and Dark Angels you have literally no need for CA

 Wolfblade wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
For £20 GBP I'm more than happy to pick this up mainly for the missions and battle zones. It's a yearly release and that is fine for 12 months. I can certainly agree that the points should be a free download but does it really honestly matter?

Yes, because now everyone who wants the points, and just the points has to pay for another entire book, on top of the codex, core rules, and potentially a FW index and regular index.

If you want the point changes, Google is your friend. No need to buy the book if you're not interested in any of the other additions

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
For £20 GBP I'm more than happy to pick this up mainly for the missions and battle zones. It's a yearly release and that is fine for 12 months. I can certainly agree that the points should be a free download but does it really honestly matter?

Yes, because now everyone who wants the points, and just the points has to pay for another entire book, on top of the codex, core rules, and potentially a FW index and regular index.

If you want the point changes, Google is your friend. No need to buy the book if you're not interested in any of the other additions

Sure, but there shouldn't be a need to pirate the point changes. The whole point of FAQs and point changes was to be free updates to fix problem units/rules/weapons.

GW also said something about lowering the cost rules, and not needing so many different books for all the rules for a faction iirc.

Yeah we shouldn't need to go to google or battle scribe it was a dick move putting points in this book, but they knew it wouldn't sell otherwise.

But because no one at gw understands the tinternet they don't understand how self defeating this was, more rage for no profit.

You should not charge your customers to fix your own shoddy product.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
For £20 GBP I'm more than happy to pick this up mainly for the missions and battle zones. It's a yearly release and that is fine for 12 months. I can certainly agree that the points should be a free download but does it really honestly matter?

Yes, because now everyone who wants the points, and just the points has to pay for another entire book, on top of the codex, core rules, and potentially a FW index and regular index.

If you want the point changes, Google is your friend. No need to buy the book if you're not interested in any of the other additions

Sure, but there shouldn't be a need to pirate the point changes. The whole point of FAQs and point changes was to be free updates to fix problem units/rules/weapons.

GW also said something about lowering the cost rules, and not needing so many different books for all the rules for a faction iirc.

Well to be fair the old gw way would of had them just release a new edition and supplements by now.

every 6 months for all updates on one book is at least predictable. though god knows maybe we will get supplements

 Desubot wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
For £20 GBP I'm more than happy to pick this up mainly for the missions and battle zones. It's a yearly release and that is fine for 12 months. I can certainly agree that the points should be a free download but does it really honestly matter?

Yes, because now everyone who wants the points, and just the points has to pay for another entire book, on top of the codex, core rules, and potentially a FW index and regular index.

If you want the point changes, Google is your friend. No need to buy the book if you're not interested in any of the other additions

Sure, but there shouldn't be a need to pirate the point changes. The whole point of FAQs and point changes was to be free updates to fix problem units/rules/weapons.

GW also said something about lowering the cost rules, and not needing so many different books for all the rules for a faction iirc.

Well to be fair the old gw way would of had them just release a new edition and supplements by now.

every 6 months for all updates on one book is at least predictable. though god knows maybe we will get supplements

That still contradicts their statement about cheaper rules and whatnot. Paying for new missions is one thing, or when a codex is released after you have the index (as indexes were supposed to just be a temp thing), but throwing points into a book just to force people to buy it is silly, especially when they've already been doing free FAQs/Erratas.

Honestly, even having use for more than one section, the book was a total rip off. Two half-assed pages on objective markers, of which two sets were just the heroic bases and the retail markers for hobby material. VDR rules for a single vehicle which felt more like a beta test of full VDR down the line and a bunch of pages of redundant LR variants for those too lazy to make their own with the provided rules.

Apoc/Pstrike rules are nice and all, but really how often in a year do you get those in? In 80 games of 8th, the closest I've gotten was a single 4k game.

This should not have cost more than an Index. Way less and inferior content for a higher price. I am definitely not purchasing CA 2018.