Here is a house-rule to curb first-turn advantage.
1) In the first turn of the first battle round all unit activations costs 1 CP per phase. So, if the beginning player wants to, say, move 2 units, deepstrike 1 unit, shoot with 3 units and charge with 1 unit, that would cost a total of 7 CP's. After this turn the game proceeds as normal.
2) Right before deployment both players secretly writes down a number on a piece of paper. After a simultaneous reveal, the player with the lowest number receives that amount of additional CP's and gets first turn as described above.
With the addition of new codexes, first turn advantage has diminished quite a bit.
Also, in ITC progressive scoring missions, with scoring done at the end of the game turn as well as player turns, getting the last turn before game turn scoring is a big deal.
I recently played in a tournament and chose to go second every game.
Sheer genius! . What about players who only get 6-7 CP per game, like GK? Why even play as GK with that rule? Not only are you playing a sub-par army but you don't even get CP after the 1st turn.
Marmatag wrote: With the addition of new codexes, first turn advantage has diminished quite a bit.
Also, in ITC progressive scoring missions, with scoring done at the end of the game turn as well as player turns, getting the last turn before game turn scoring is a big deal.
I recently played in a tournament and chose to go second every game.
Then you just write a higher number on the paper. Which means that if you end up going first, you would be doing so with a bit of additional CP's.
But sometimes you just run into that Alpha Legion dude with 40 bezerkers or his mate with eight bassilisks, and then the first turn advantage is severe, and you will write down a smaller number on the slip.
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Leo_the_Rat wrote: Sheer genius! . What about players who only get 6-7 CP per game, like GK? Why even play as GK with that rule? Not only are you playing a sub-par army but you don't even get CP after the 1st turn.
I don't see how GK is disadvantaged with the rule above. In fact I think it would work well even for list with zero CP's.
pismakron wrote: Here is a house-rule to curb first-turn advantage.
1) In the first turn of the first battle round all unit activations costs 1 CP per phase. So, if the beginning player wants to, say, move 2 units, deepstrike 1 unit, shoot with 3 units and charge with 1 unit, that would cost a total of 7 CP's. After this turn the game proceeds as normal.
2) Right before deployment both players secretly writes down a number on a piece of paper. After a simultaneous reveal, the player with the lowest number receives that amount of additional CP's and gets first turn as described above.
You would resolve the tie in some way (roll-off, rapier duel, wet t-shirt contest). And then a player with a zero-bid would get first turn with only his regular set of CP's.
Bidding 0 would only be done by someone who desperately needed first turn, and that player would need to eat into his CP stockpile to do anything on the first turn, whereas the second turn player would just activate all his units normally.
Most of the time both players would bid a nonzero amount.
So I can bid 0 CPs and essentially get 1st turn? And my opponent has to waste CPs just to do something in their first turn? Worth it I'd just bid 0 extra CPs and deploy in a defensive manner (As in having multiple units set up as Reinforcements or in LoS blocking terrain). Once the opponent wastes all his CP, I can Alpha strike him in my second turn will my full compliment of CPs.
This idea is too easily abused.
A better way to reduce the turn 1 Advantage is to A) limit the number of your Reinforcement can come in on turn 1 and/or B) Reintroduce "Night fighting" in some way
For A, you could simple say that only half (rounding up) of your Reinforcements can arrive in the same turn. For B, it would make sense to make this a -1 to hit the DOES NOT stack with army attributes that do the same.
Bharring wrote: I hated the idea at first, but so far it's grown on me.
It's better for elite armies, but that's manageable.
That's probably the biggest weakness. An Imperial Knights player could shoot with his entire army for 4 CP's.
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Galef wrote: So I can bid 0 CPs and essentially get 1st turn? And my opponent has to waste CPs just to do something in their first turn? Worth it
I'd just bid 0 extra CPs and deploy in a defensive manner (As in having multiple units set up as Reinforcements or in LoS blocking terrain). Once the opponent wastes all his CP, I can Alpha strike him in my second turn will my full compliment of CPs.
This idea is too easily abused.
It is only the player going first that has to spend CP's activating units.
pismakron wrote: It is only the player going first that has to spend CP's activating units.
That makes it even worse of an idea. I get that going first is a big advantage, but you change completely flips it in favor of going second.
In Malestrom games it is even worse. You definitely want to go second in every game
Honestly, I think just giving the player who goes second some form of turn 1 protection would be enough. Like Night fighting for just the first player turn.
pismakron wrote: It is only the player going first that has to spend CP's activating units.
That makes it even worse of an idea. I get that going first is a big advantage, but you change completely flips it in favor of going second.
In Malestrom games it is even worse. You definitely want to go second in every game
Honestly, I think just giving the player who goes second some form of turn 1 protection would be enough. Like Night fighting for just the first player turn.
It does not make it worse. The player going first needs to spend CP's to activate units, but he also gets an additional amount of CP to do it with (or keep). The exact amount is determined through a hidden auction. If you think going second is so much better, then you just bid high.
Sounds broken to all hell. Severely limits the ability to actually do an alpha strike and then screws you over for the rest of the game because you have no command points, or even if you just want to take a normal first turn you get screwed over because you can't use all your units and once you've had your half turn you have no CPs. This just effectively makes going second the new going first and going first a terrible nightmare.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Sounds broken to all hell. Severely limits the ability to actually do an alpha strike and then screws you over for the rest of the game because you have no command points, or even if you just want to take a normal first turn you get screwed over because you can't use all your units and once you've had your half turn you have no CPs. This just effectively makes going second the new going first and going first a terrible nightmare.
It definitely limits the ability of doing effective alpha strikes, that is the point of it. It does not screw you over for going first. You can go first and keep your entire bid of additional CP's for the remainder of the game. And if you really want to go second, then bid up and write a high number.
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Desubot wrote: I like the idea of bidding with CP but i know some one is going to try and break it pretty quick.
Try and break it. If you can, good. If you cannot, even better.
pismakron wrote: Here is a house-rule to curb first-turn advantage.
1) In the first turn of the first battle round all unit activations costs 1 CP per phase. So, if the beginning player wants to, say, move 2 units, deepstrike 1 unit, shoot with 3 units and charge with 1 unit, that would cost a total of 7 CP's. After this turn the game proceeds as normal.
2) Right before deployment both players secretly writes down a number on a piece of paper. After a simultaneous reveal, the player with the lowest number receives that amount of additional CP's and gets first turn as described above.
Pretty brilliant, eh?
This doesn't scale at all thanks to game size or army size. An Imperial Knight or IG superheavy regiment would be able to move almost their entire army turn 1 and blow you off the table same as always. Meanwhile MSU and hordes get absolutely wrecked by this.
I get where you're trying to go with this, but it's a pretty flawed idea and just opens up a can of worms that is more complex and arguably worse than what it's trying to replace.
Ideally it should be where there are clear advantages to going second. Even in 40k there is a clear advantage to going second because it allows you to basically guarantee last turn objective grabs. It's not as dramatic as a turn 1 alpha strike but it's there. Honestly, there's nothing you can do to remove alpha strike from the game other than restrict reserves from popping up turn 1 or completely redoing to turn structure into some sort of alternating system like Bolt Action or Dropzone Commander uses.
It does not screw you over for going first. You can go first and keep your entire bid of additional CP's for the remainder of the game. And if you really want to go second, then bid up and write a high number.
Lets say I bid five and you bid six. For the purposes of the thought experiment let's say I have 6 CPs to start with and ten separate units. I now have 11 actions I can perform between ten units. They can either move or shoot, and one unit can do both. Now that's a very limited turn one. And now, on top of my terrible turn one, I am left with no CPs for the rest of the game. Alternatively, I hold onto my 11 CPs and let my opponent alpha strike me, killing one third of my army, and I'd take the third of my army over the 5 CPs any day. Meanwhile, the person who bid six, or hell they could bid 1000 it doesn't matter, gets their 6 or 7 starting CPs to use as and when they please, and a full first turn.
It sounds ridiculously unfair to whoever goes first.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Sounds broken to all hell. Severely limits the ability to actually do an alpha strike and then screws you over for the rest of the game because you have no command points, or even if you just want to take a normal first turn you get screwed over because you can't use all your units and once you've had your half turn you have no CPs. This just effectively makes going second the new going first and going first a terrible nightmare.
It definitely limits the ability of doing effective alpha strikes, that is the point of it. It does not screw you over for going first. You can go first and keep your entire bid of additional CP's for the remainder of the game. And if you really want to go second, then bid up and write a high number.
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Desubot wrote: I like the idea of bidding with CP but i know some one is going to try and break it pretty quick.
Try and break it. If you can, good. If you cannot, even better.
Guard will just bid 12 command points and get 4 back. If you out bid then, they’ll get 4+ free points at the start. Bidding buffs guard when they already are too good.
Zero bid, spend 3 CP to activate my three LoW and get the same alpha strike, except now I'm guaranteed to get first turn instead of having to roll for it. Please no.
Lets say I bid five and you bid six. For the purposes of the thought experiment let's say I have 6 CPs to start with and ten separate units. I now have 11 actions I can perform between ten units. They can either move or shoot, and one unit can do both. Now that's a very limited turn one. And now, on top of my terrible turn one, I am left with no CPs for the rest of the game. Alternatively, I hold onto my 11 CPs and let my opponent alpha strike me, killing one third of my army, and I'd take the third of my army over the 5 CPs any day. Meanwhile, the person who bid six, or hell they could bid 1000 it doesn't matter, gets their 6 or 7 starting CPs to use as and when they please, and a full first turn.
It sounds ridiculously unfair to whoever goes first.
Then why did you bid five? Nothing stops you from writing down, say, 10 or 15 on your piece of paper.
Guard will just bid 12 command points and get 4 back. If you out bid then, they’ll get 4+ free points at the start. Bidding buffs guard when they already are too good.
Then what if his opponent bids 10 thus getting first turn? I don't follow your train of thought, here.
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Peregrine wrote: Zero bid, spend 3 CP to activate my three LoW and get the same alpha strike, except now I'm guaranteed to get first turn instead of having to roll for it. Please no.
That list certainly breaks the system, and, in my opinion, such a list ruins every phase of the game. The obvious solution is to not use the house-rule with such lists, or just say that LoW/Titanic units require 5CP per activation.
This doesn't scale at all thanks to game size or army size. An Imperial Knight or IG superheavy regiment would be able to move almost their entire army turn 1 and blow you off the table same as always. Meanwhile MSU and hordes get absolutely wrecked by this.
Hordes don't necessarily get wrecked by this. An ork Boy blob is 193 points and a Genestealer blob is 240. But I agree that lists with a few very powerful and points-dense units gets a big advantage from this system, but this is true of pretty much all alternate activation schemes as well. In a bolt-action scheme the guy with 3 Knights and 500 points of MSU will dominate, as he would be able to front load his shooting and fighting phases, while backload his movement and deployment phases. Regards
NurglesR0T wrote: Surely the simplest solution would be just to only allow reserves to enter from turn 2 onwards?
It wouldn't really solve anything at all though. Artillery-heavy gun-lines, alpha legion with 40 infiltrating Bezerkers, would still dominate on turn 1.
As for limiting deepstrike to turn 2, do you mean the first turn of the second battle round, or the second turn of the first battle-round? Both of those have issues.
Marmatag wrote: With the addition of new codexes, first turn advantage has diminished quite a bit.
Also, in ITC progressive scoring missions, with scoring done at the end of the game turn as well as player turns, getting the last turn before game turn scoring is a big deal.
I recently played in a tournament and chose to go second every game.
Sure, but the pages upon pages of ITC rulings are a much more extensive and invasive set of houserules with far more wideranging changes to the game than the little CP-activation suggested above.
pismakron wrote: [
Then why did you bid five? Nothing stops you from writing down, say, 10 or 15 on your piece of paper.
Maybe because i wanted first turn to i tried to underbid my opponent. Although given the way this system looks you're right, why bid low, it'll just screw you over. Bid 100 to secure turn 2.
First turn fix: units belonging to the army that goes first fires half of the shots. For example 4 lascannons count as being only 2. Twin ass cannons count as single ass cannons, etc...
What is really strong about first turn is the shooting phase, just limit it and going first wouldn't be so vital.
pismakron wrote: [
Then why did you bid five? Nothing stops you from writing down, say, 10 or 15 on your piece of paper.
Maybe because i wanted first turn to i tried to underbid my opponent. Although given the way this system looks you're right, why bid low, it'll just screw you over. Bid 100 to secure turn 2.
Sure, and then your opponent bids ninety, gets first turn with ninety CP's? The correct approach is bid just enough that getting first turn would be acceptable, but as low as possible within that constraint.
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Blackie wrote: First turn fix: units belonging to the army that goes first fires half of the shots. For example 4 lascannons count as being only 2. Twin ass cannons count as single ass cannons, etc...
What is really strong about first turn is the shooting phase, just limit it and going first wouldn't be so vital.
That would not be a bad rule, but it would still allow people to infiltrate 40 bezerkers/15 aggressors whenever they rolled for first turn.
pismakron wrote: Sure, and then your opponent bids ninety, gets first turn with ninety CP's?
You play a farce of a game where both players use literally every stratagem at every possible opportunity. The problem is that, before you bid, you have to ask whether or not you want to participate in the system at all. If you want the first turn you have to carefully weigh the options on how much you can afford to bid, and you probably get something reasonable for a number. If you don't care about going second, because you have a reserves-heavy beta strike list or just plan to win on end-of-turn objective grabs, you bid infinite points and have infinite stratagem use. A bid of 10 CP and 999999999999999999 CP have the same (nonexistent) chance of winning, so of course you take the bigger supply of CP.
The real solution is to nerf infiltrate/deep strike/etc so they aren't so effective as an alpha strike, and then let the end of turn objective claim advantage balance out having the first attack. Go back to the old rule of prohibiting first turn charges if you infiltrate/scout/etc, make reserves arrive on turn 2 or later, and bring back the scatter dice on deep striking. Now you can no longer deliver those threats directly to their target without any delay or chance of failure. And now that you can't cripple an opponent with an alpha strike before they even get a turn you have to weigh the (greatly reduced) casualties you'll inflict vs. having the ability to clear an opposing unit from an objective and then immediately claim it before anyone can react. This is the reason why people often defaulted to having the second turn in previous editions where zero-risk zero-effort infiltrate/deep strike/etc weren't available.
That would not be a bad rule, but it would still allow people to infiltrate 40 bezerkers/15 aggressors whenever they rolled for first turn.
I agree, but IMHO deep striking abuse is another problem, a different one, but one of the main issues of 40k. In my ideal game deep strike would be completely removed, everything should start on the board, making vehicles more important, but maybe I'd still let 1 unit keep the ability. Or just make deep strike not automatic like rolling a D6: on 4+ the unit can arrive with the current rules, on 2-3 the 9'' limit becomes a 18'' one and on a 1 the unit is completely destroyed (it counts as the deep strike has placed them very far from the battle), no re-rolls allowed.
Infiltrate would still be part of the game but with a 15-18'' limit from enemy units.
Deep strike is too powerful but only a few deepstriking units are really OP and many armies can have decent screeners. Nerfing the shooting phase in turn 1 would be great.
To offset the CP cost of 1st turn, you need to bid an amount that relates to the number of units you play. So more units = higher bid (it's not worth to get 1st turn with 2 additionals CPs if you have 20 units).
So the system breaks down if the two players have a vastly different number of units.
If you have 4 (usually shooty) units, like 4 SHVs, you can just bid 4CP, which would be enough to get a normal first turn. If your opponent has 20 units, he/she has a choice: either bid very low, get first turn, but do nothing during 1st turn because a couple CPs does nothing for him/her. Or bid higher, and get screwed.
And obviously you shouldn't pay 1CP for each action (move, psychic, shoot, charge), but a fixed amount of CP for a whole turn. Otherwise units that can stay still and shoot gain an insane advantage over units that do need to move, shoot and charge in a turn to be useful.
Welcome to the world where IG alpha strike is king. Shooting has a massive advantage in this system, especially long range shooting, as does any army able to naturally generate a whole bunch of CP on its own. Play IG fill 2-3 brigades, make Sure to bring powerful shooting as part of your list. Bid 0 every game, profit.
Both of OP's fixes disproportionally favour IG , and they really the buff right now vs GK alpha striking who are proabably getting the most nerfed here.
The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
pismakron wrote: Sure, and then your opponent bids ninety, gets first turn with ninety CP's?
You play a farce of a game where both players use literally every stratagem at every possible opportunity. The problem is that, before you bid, you have to ask whether or not you want to participate in the system at all. If you want the first turn you have to carefully weigh the options on how much you can afford to bid, and you probably get something reasonable for a number. If you don't care about going second, because you have a reserves-heavy beta strike list or just plan to win on end-of-turn objective grabs, you bid infinite points and have infinite stratagem use. A bid of 10 CP and 999999999999999999 CP have the same (nonexistent) chance of winning, so of course you take the bigger supply of CP.
If you are the highest bidder and go second, then you don't get any CP at all, and you do not need to pay any CP to activate units. The lowest bid gets a cache of CP with which to conduct his first turn, so there would be no incentive to submit a very large bid, nor a very small bid.
For sake of argument consider the following:
You are playing Guard against me, playing Orks.
Your list is:
3 x Company commander
3 x vetsquads, las cannon 3x grenadelauncher
6 x inf squads, plasma + lascannon
3 x scout sentinels, h flamer
3 x bassilisks
tank commander, punisher
4 standard leman russ
13 CP (i think)
My list is
2 x warboss, klaw
2 x big mek, choppa, kustom force field
2 x weirdboy, da jump & warpath
2 x painboy, klaw
6 x 30 boyz, boss nob with klaw
6 kommandos, klaw
6 kustom mega kannons
9 CP
I don't have the AM codex, and I am not super familiar with Guard listbuilding, so bear with me here.
So the question is this: What number would you write on your piece of paper?
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Breng77 wrote: Welcome to the world where IG alpha strike is king. Shooting has a massive advantage in this system, especially long range shooting, as does any army able to naturally generate a whole bunch of CP on its own. Play IG fill 2-3 brigades, make Sure to bring powerful shooting as part of your list. Bid 0 every game, profit.
Why would you profit? You would essentially have a regular shooty guard alpha strike list, with the added disadvantage of having to spend a CP from your regular pool for every movement or shooting action in your first turn? Why would anyone do this?
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Earth127 wrote: Both of OP's fixes disproportionally favour IG , and they really the buff right now vs GK alpha striking who are proabably getting the most nerfed here.
I don't see why this would favour IG over GK? Care to explain that?
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
Yeah, 40k needs a good look at itself and decide what it wants to be. Currently its not achieving anything special with its gameplay; the big selling point is the supposed freedom to play whatever you want, which leaves us with a mess of a game when people bring 3 superheavies against a foot marine army.
Typically, a 28mm game would be no larger than a company level game, and ideally no larger than a reinforced platoon level game. In 40k terms, we're talking about IG forces no larger than a Russ squadron with a small infantry platoon for support, or marines running a few squads with supporting elements. Throw in alternating activations, and now the biggest disparity in number of activations would be no greater than a few units between the forces. If we throw it in currently at a 2k level game, we could have one side with 3 activations for superheavies, and another side 24 activations. In such a system, the player ultimately decides on the pros and cons of number of activations; less activations means each activation is individually more powerful, but you lose out on flexibility of reacting to your opponent while the opposite would be true for someone with more activations. The system inherently is self balancing if the difference isn't massive.
When you fix the scale issues, throw in alternating activations, and tweak the CP system so that they aren't used for re-rolls of some sort but rather for meaningful in game actions like rallying units (morale should be waaaayyyy more important), setting units up on overwatch (proper out of turn shooting, not a simple extra attack as someone charges you), activating two units in one go, delaying an activation, and so on.
I've been keeping tabs on the Gates of Antares 40k port because it seems way more up my alley than the cluster that is this edition.
I totally understand that there are people who love playing multiple superheavies and flyers, and call me old fashioned, but I seriously miss the days where those elements were strictly for Apoc. I think the game was better for it, and their introduction into the base game marks the game's decline for me.
Looking forward to giving Necromunda a shot though!
Breng77 wrote: Welcome to the world where IG alpha strike is king. Shooting has a massive advantage in this system, especially long range shooting, as does any army able to naturally generate a whole bunch of CP on its own. Play IG fill 2-3 brigades, make Sure to bring powerful shooting as part of your list. Bid 0 every game, profit.
Why would you profit? You would essentially have a regular shooty guard alpha strike list, with the added disadvantage of having to spend a CP from your regular pool for every movement or shooting action in your first turn? Why would anyone do this?
Consider this
Guard
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x basilisk
2x 3 moratar team
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x Mantacore
2x 3 moratar team
(mind you I made this in about a minute) 21 CP - I bid 0 every game to give me at worst a roll off for first turn, on which if my opponent is say GK and have 7 CP, units which need to move to shoot, have psychic powers etc. SO if the GK player wins first turn he activates 2-3 units, which generally are going to attack my screen then I blow him off the table.
Do I have to pay CP to scout my sentinels forward it happens before turn 1? If not I've gotten a free move with 6 units which can now shoot and are denying deepstrike. I have so many units I can see where most opponents will deploy. I have 10 units which I really don't need to move so I can spend 10 CP just to shoot, have scouted my sentinels forward as a screen, and still have 11 CP remaing. Or if I'm facing those GK maybe I bid 1 or 2 and still not give up an advantage, but get extra CP unless they want turn 1.
IF scout moves don't count as needing CP I'll bid 1 or 2 CP against your ork list. With 9 CP what are you doing shooting my screen with a KMK? and jump charging 1 unit of boyz? This system is hugely advantageous to units that don't need to move
Blacksails wrote:The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
This is the only real solution.
usernamesareannoying wrote:we fixed it in my group by completely removing the first turn and just going straight to the last turn.
we set everything up, roll a dice and whoever gets the highest wins.
it really knocks out all of the arguments and balance problems.
The longer I dwell here, the more it sounds like this is everything players want but just won't admit to themselves
Marmatag wrote: With the addition of new codexes, first turn advantage has diminished quite a bit.
Also, in ITC progressive scoring missions, with scoring done at the end of the game turn as well as player turns, getting the last turn before game turn scoring is a big deal.
I recently played in a tournament and chose to go second every game.
Sure, but the pages upon pages of ITC rulings are a much more extensive and invasive set of houserules with far more wideranging changes to the game than the little CP-activation suggested above.
ITC 40K is very from vanilla 40K.
This is incorrect in 8th edition. There is very little editing done from base line 8th to move into ITC - effectively its an addition of scenarios a few small bits of clarity.
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x basilisk
2x 3 moratar team
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x Mantacore
2x 3 moratar team
(mind you I made this in about a minute) 21 CP - I bid 0 every game to give me at worst a roll off for first turn, on which if my opponent is say GK and have 7 CP, units which need to move to shoot, have psychic powers etc. SO if the GK player wins first turn he activates 2-3 units, which generally are going to attack my screen then I blow him off the table.
The GK player, assuming sanity, would never bid 0, so you would go first with your 21 CP. Now you would be in the situation of getting an alpha-strike with half of your units, spending double-digit CP's to do so. A huge nerf from the regular alpha strike, where you can move and shoot with ALL of your units and keep ALL 21 CP's. And even though you would have needlessly crippled yourself by bidding 0, you would probably win because GK sucks. But it is still a lot of CP's to spend in order to shoot a little at his 3 storm-ravens in a corner deployment.
IF scout moves don't count as needing CP I'll bid 1 or 2 CP against your ork list. With 9 CP what are you doing shooting my screen with a KMK? and jump charging 1 unit of boyz? This system is hugely advantageous to units that don't need to move
Scout moves does not count as needing a CP. So, given that, what would you bid as the Guard player in the scenario I proposed to Peregrine above?
Blacksails wrote:The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
This is the only real solution.
A house rule that requires a significant overhaul of the entire game is not really a solution at all. Also, boobs are nice.
A house rule that requires a significant overhaul of the entire game is not really a solution at all.
To be fair, a house rule that doesn't solve the issue and causes other imbalances is also not a solution, which is basically every suggestion in this thread so far.
I'm more a proponent of adapting and learning to overcome challenges rather than legislating around them.
I'm sure some small rules and point tweaks are warranted, but this seems a bit drastic. Though I support others giving it a shot on a broad scale and if it seems worthwhile we can give GW a shout.
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x basilisk
2x 3 moratar team
Brigade
3 x company commander
6 x infantry squad
3 x command squad
3 x scout sentinels
3 x Mantacore
2x 3 moratar team
(mind you I made this in about a minute) 21 CP - I bid 0 every game to give me at worst a roll off for first turn, on which if my opponent is say GK and have 7 CP, units which need to move to shoot, have psychic powers etc. SO if the GK player wins first turn he activates 2-3 units, which generally are going to attack my screen then I blow him off the table.
The GK player, assuming sanity, would never bid 0, so you would go first with your 21 CP. Now you would be in the situation of getting an alpha-strike with half of your units, spending double-digit CP's to do so. A huge nerf from the regular alpha strike, where you can move and shoot with ALL of your units and keep ALL 21 CP's. And even though you would have needlessly crippled yourself by bidding 0, you would probably win because GK sucks. But it is still a lot of CP's to spend in order to shoot a little at his 3 storm-ravens in a corner deployment.
Except I largely won't need all those CP to be effective, and I would not need to spend very much to shoot everything I care about shooting at his units. Still get my alpha strike, be guaranteed turn 1. Further 3 storm ravens is the only viable GK build because then his 6 CP can move and shoot his 3 main units. So as IG I'd bid a bunch of CP let him go first, spread out and deny him shooting at anything I care about and table him.
IF scout moves don't count as needing CP I'll bid 1 or 2 CP against your ork list. With 9 CP what are you doing shooting my screen with a KMK? and jump charging 1 unit of boyz? This system is hugely advantageous to units that don't need to move
Scout moves does not count as needing a CP. So, given that, what would you bid as the Guard player in the scenario I proposed to Peregrine above?
Regards.
I wouldn't build that guard Army, using the one I built (or close). For you to have an effective turn 1 that I care about you would need to spend 6 CP to shoot your KMKs, 2 to cast your powers, and 2 to charge and fight with your boyz mob (not sure if you have just 6 commandos or 6 units) but even without them that is 10 CP to maybe do something. Even then I would not be greatly worried, I'd bid 2 points. If you want to take first turn you would do very little, otherwise I get to shoot you with impunity, Even if you let me go first I still have more CP than you after my turn 1.
IF scout type deployments don't count I could also go For guard brigade + raptors(Raven guard) alpha strike with something like 15 CP starting. Basically if I run an army that does not need to pay to move, pay to charge, pay to fight(unless that is free, you said a CP every phase), but if I only need to pay CP to shoot I can do way more damage, so Artillery is super powerful on that turn 1.
The issue you have is you are assuming lists designed for current 40k, the problem is when you do this you go back to essentially whoever finishes deploying first goes first. List building becomes a game to abuse the system you put in place.
as I sid before 8th dropped (because first turn advantage isnt a new thing) 40k needs to switch to alternating activation or random activation so your opponent isnt bored to death watching you kill his army.
I'm not sure the first turn advantage is so big as to require fixing. Isn't the fact that the first turn goes to the smaller force five sixths of the time in itself a form of balance? If people are getting a significant amount of their army wiped by first turn alpha strikes it could probably be remedied by more terrain, greater planning or better deployment.
I used to be in favor of bidding CP for the first turn, but the issue is CP aren't valuable enough, many Alpha strike armies would happily bid all to remove the randomness of going first. Any decent solution will have to be a combo of individual tweaks.
My group of tweaks:
1.) No deep strike in the first round
2.) Units that start their movement outside of the player's deployment zone can not assault in the first round.
3.) 1st story of buildings do not automatically block line of sight to vehicles.
The third one is the only one that requires any explanation, Currently in ITC, because of the rule about first floor blocking LoS, there are too many places where artillery vehicles can be out of LoS. Since you can't get LoS they will be effectively unkillable until their screening units are dispersed. The Goal of this change is to make such artillery alpha strikes armies less safe, both in the first turn and after. There will still be places where artillery can hide but there will be a lot less of it, and it will be much easier to get around.
craftworld_uk wrote: I'm not sure the first turn advantage is so big as to require fixing. Isn't the fact that the first turn goes to the smaller force five sixths of the time in itself a form of balance? If people are getting a significant amount of their army wiped by first turn alpha strikes it could probably be remedied by more terrain, greater planning or better deployment.
Not really in that the smaller force probably had loaded up on high points cost weapons or tech instead of generic boots on the ground.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
It's not particularly hard.
Except that you then needed to re-write your simple alternating activation to get all of that to work. The transport rule still doesn't solve units like drop pods, unless you are saying that deepstriking a vehicle does not count as activating it. What about Trygons? Units using the tunnel now cannot activate.
Can I activate all characters within 3" of a unit or only 1 character? If multiples what stops character spam armies from abusing the system?
I just provided a few examples where it does not work and you already had to back track on simple alternating and add additional rules to get those things to work.
Like I said alternate activation is not impossible, but it requires a significant set of changes to the rules to get it to work properly.
I could solve all the issues you describe much easier than what you have done.
Each player divides their army into battlegroups consisting of as close to 500 points as possible. When on a players "turn" he may activate 1 of these groups (which can move, cast psychic powers, shoot, charge, fight), then play passes to his opponent how activates 1 of his groups. Once both players have activated all of their battle groups the battle round ends.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
Except that you then needed to re-write your simple alternating activation to get all of that to work. The transport rule still doesn't solve units like drop pods, unless you are saying that deepstriking a vehicle does not count as activating it. What about Trygons? Units using the tunnel now cannot activate.
If you read what I wrote this is clearly spelled out. The transport is in reserves. Its your turn. You activate the drop pod, which is what allows it to be deployed and deepstriked. Was there a unit in the drop pod? It activates too.
The trygon is sitting in reserves. On your turn you activate it, which allows it to deploy onto the table and do it's turn. Was there a unit with the trygon? It activates too.
Can I activate all characters within 3" of a unit or only 1 character? If multiples what stops character spam armies from abusing the system?
All. It's an expansion of heroic intervention. What stops "Spam armies" from abusing the system is the same thing you were just complainiing about. MSU. If you want to activated 10 Astropaths as one big activation to try to move them within 18" of unit and fire off 10 mini smites then you just lost 10 activations and my next chunk of activations will be laying those astropaths to waste. Meanwhile you just lost 10 whole units because you tried to activate too much.
It's the same thing as normal MSU or larger units in a alternating activation system. MSU has little or no impact per an activation, a few massive point units are too inflexible and will get out maneuvered. Play smart.
I just provided a few examples where it does not work and you already had to back track on simple alternating and add additional rules to get those things to work.
Like I said alternate activation is not impossible, but it requires a significant set of changes to the rules to get it to work properly.
No you didn't. You just seemed to have trouble understanding what I wrote.
The changes are not significant. It's just logical. You activate things together that wouldn't actually work if they couldn't.
I could solve all the issues you describe much easier than what you have done.
Each player divides their army into battlegroups consisting of as close to 500 points as possible. When on a players "turn" he may activate 1 of these groups (which can move, cast psychic powers, shoot, charge, fight), then play passes to his opponent how activates 1 of his groups. Once both players have activated all of their battle groups the battle round ends.
Done, no other rules are needed.
Crap rule with problems you don't see for some reason. The units in 40k are meant to be moving all over the board and synergizing with lots of different units. What happens when one battlegroup gets reduced to a couple characters who can no longer keep up with the other battle groups? What happens to their auras? What happens to their protections? What happens when units don't fit into your 500 point blocks. like trying to bring the swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard in 2 tyrannocytes. Thats closer to 700 points then 500. You could split them into other battlegroups easy enough to make 2 different battelgroups, but then the tyrant guard will never be in range of the swarmlord, making the whole set up unplayable.
Except I largely won't need all those CP to be effective, and I would not need to spend very much to shoot everything I care about shooting at his units. Still get my alpha strike, be guaranteed turn 1. Further 3 storm ravens is the only viable GK build because then his 6 CP can move and shoot his 3 main units. So as IG I'd bid a bunch of CP let him go first, spread out and deny him shooting at anything I care about and table him.
First you claim that bidding 0 was a no-brainer, and now you want to bid a bunch of CP's letting him get first turn? Which one is it? If you do as you propose, he would get first turn with a handfull of additional CP's. And with a traditional GK-army of three stormravens with terminators and the rest in reserves, he could do a lot of damage. In both cases the advantage of your two brigades and 21 CP's is nil, even though you would probably win by brute force and number of bodies alone.
I wouldn't build that guard Army, using the one I built (or close). For you to have an effective turn 1 that I care about you would need to spend 6 CP to shoot your KMKs, 2 to cast your powers, and 2 to charge and fight with your boyz mob (not sure if you have just 6 commandos or 6 units) but even without them that is 10 CP to maybe do something. Even then I would not be greatly worried, I'd bid 2 points. If you want to take first turn you would do very little, otherwise I get to shoot you with impunity, Even if you let me go first I still have more CP than you after my turn 1.
If you'd bid 2 points you would be certain of going first. And you would then need to spend 18 of your 21 CP's to just shoot (without moving) with HALF of your army. That sure is a crippling nerf you imposed on yourself right there.
As Orks I'd bid around six or seven. I would have to contend with your full firepower anyways, but with 6 movements before the barrage I could advance all my blobs to the edge of the KFF, or I could shoot all of the KMK killing the punisher tank commander. Six CP's is more than enough to take a little bit of the bite out of a Guard alpha-strike. And that is what this system does: It pushes the alpha strike back to the second turn of the first battle round, allowing the first player a handfull of moves or shooting actions before it begins.
Using CP's to conduct a full alpha strike in the first turn is only possible by having very FEW units, like 3 knights and Guilliman or something like that, which is the systems real weakness. Having two brigades of Guard infantry would certainly not work, as you would need 36 CP's just to fire their weapons.
IF scout type deployments don't count I could also go For guard brigade + raptors(Raven guard) alpha strike with something like 15 CP starting. Basically if I run an army that does not need to pay to move, pay to charge, pay to fight(unless that is free, you said a CP every phase), but if I only need to pay CP to shoot I can do way more damage, so Artillery is super powerful on that turn 1.
The sentinel scout-move does not require CP's because it is an abillity, and it happens before the first turn. But the strike from the shadows stratagem is not free, so you would have to spend 2 CP's for every unit that you would want to infiltrate and shoot with, and 4 CPs if you also wants them to move and charge. There is nothing game-breaking here, the system works as it should.
And yes, artillery would be super-powerfull on turn 1. It already is. Having to pay 1 CP to shoot that mortar HWS would certainly not make it MORE powerfull.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimgold wrote: I used to be in favor of bidding CP for the first turn, but the issue is CP aren't valuable enough, many Alpha strike armies would happily bid all to remove the randomness of going first. Any decent solution will have to be a combo of individual tweaks.
Then just don't call it CP's. Call it candy-points.
Both players write down a number on a piece of paper, and whoever wrote the lower number gets that amount of candy points. Candy points allows a player to activate some amount of units before the other player gets his alpha strike. It is a simple system, at it is very easy to tweak. Like requiring different amount of candy for moving, shooting and deepstriking, and requiring extra candy for LoW and very expensive units.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
Except that you then needed to re-write your simple alternating activation to get all of that to work. The transport rule still doesn't solve units like drop pods, unless you are saying that deepstriking a vehicle does not count as activating it. What about Trygons? Units using the tunnel now cannot activate.
If you read what I wrote this is clearly spelled out. The transport is in reserves. Its your turn. You activate the drop pod, which is what allows it to be deployed and deepstriked. Was there a unit in the drop pod? It activates too.
The trygon is sitting in reserves. On your turn you activate it, which allows it to deploy onto the table and do it's turn. Was there a unit with the trygon? It activates too.
So then taking things like Trygons is super powerful, still has problems.
Can I activate all characters within 3" of a unit or only 1 character? If multiples what stops character spam armies from abusing the system?
All. It's an expansion of heroic intervention. What stops "Spam armies" from abusing the system is the same thing you were just complainiing about. MSU. If you want to activated 10 Astropaths as one big activation to try to move them within 18" of unit and fire off 10 mini smites then you just lost 10 activations and my next chunk of activations will be laying those astropaths to waste. Meanwhile you just lost 10 whole units because you tried to activate too much.
It's the same thing as normal MSU or larger units in a alternating activation system. MSU has little or no impact per an activation, a few massive point units are too inflexible and will get out maneuvered. Play smart.
Except this makes MSU even more powerful, do I need to force you to activate first. I do it. Am I in position to wipe you out by activating my 10 characters at once, I do it. Still a problem
I just provided a few examples where it does not work and you already had to back track on simple alternating and add additional rules to get those things to work.
Like I said alternate activation is not impossible, but it requires a significant set of changes to the rules to get it to work properly.
No you didn't. You just seemed to have trouble understanding what I wrote.
The changes are not significant. It's just logical. You activate things together that wouldn't actually work if they couldn't.
Which then creates loopholes in your alternating activation, which you need to address. You say "if things wouldn't work" who defines that, where are the exceptions made? A psyker might work ok on his own, or he might not, why do all characters get to mass activate if they want?
I could solve all the issues you describe much easier than what you have done.
Each player divides their army into battlegroups consisting of as close to 500 points as possible. When on a players "turn" he may activate 1 of these groups (which can move, cast psychic powers, shoot, charge, fight), then play passes to his opponent how activates 1 of his groups. Once both players have activated all of their battle groups the battle round ends.
Done, no other rules are needed.
Crap rule with problems you don't see for some reason. The units in 40k are meant to be moving all over the board and synergizing with lots of different units. What happens when one battlegroup gets reduced to a couple characters who can no longer keep up with the other battle groups? What happens to their auras? What happens to their protections? What happens when units don't fit into your 500 point blocks. like trying to bring the swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard in 2 tyrannocytes. Thats closer to 700 points then 500. You could split them into other battlegroups easy enough to make 2 different battelgroups, but then the tyrant guard will never be in range of the swarmlord, making the whole set up unplayable.
Your battlegroup rule is crap.
How many characters have an issue of not being able to fit into a 500 point block with other units? Rowboat? Your swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard, in tyranocytes, which have worse issues in your system because they can never come in together? If we are allowing such expensive characters to mass activate hope you like Magnus + Mortarian + a knight all activating at once in your system. Maybe you don't put the spores in your example in the same battlegroup as swarmlord and the guard? So they have to wait through 1 activation before they assault Maybe you put them in different groups and engage them with things that cannot fall back because they already activated?
Are there some issues maybe, but it is far less open to abuse than your system.
Except I largely won't need all those CP to be effective, and I would not need to spend very much to shoot everything I care about shooting at his units. Still get my alpha strike, be guaranteed turn 1. Further 3 storm ravens is the only viable GK build because then his 6 CP can move and shoot his 3 main units. So as IG I'd bid a bunch of CP let him go first, spread out and deny him shooting at anything I care about and table him.
First you claim that bidding 0 was a no-brainer, and now you want to bid a bunch of CP's letting him get first turn? Which one is it? If you do as you propose, he would get first turn with a handfull of additional CP's. And with a traditional GK-army of three stormravens with terminators and the rest in reserves, he could do a lot of damage. In both cases the advantage of your two brigades and 21 CP's is nil, even though you would probably win by brute force and number of bodies alone.
They only do damage if they have range and LOS to units that are not chaff, which they won't, unless the table has little to no LOS blockers.
I wouldn't build that guard Army, using the one I built (or close). For you to have an effective turn 1 that I care about you would need to spend 6 CP to shoot your KMKs, 2 to cast your powers, and 2 to charge and fight with your boyz mob (not sure if you have just 6 commandos or 6 units) but even without them that is 10 CP to maybe do something. Even then I would not be greatly worried, I'd bid 2 points. If you want to take first turn you would do very little, otherwise I get to shoot you with impunity, Even if you let me go first I still have more CP than you after my turn 1.
If you'd bid 2 points you would be certain of going first. And you would then need to spend 18 of your 21 CP's to just shoot (without moving) with HALF of your army. That sure is a crippling nerf you imposed on yourself right there.
As Orks I'd bid around six or seven. I would have to contend with your full firepower anyways, but with 6 movements before the barrage I could advance all my blobs to the edge of the KFF, or I could shoot all of the KMK killing the punisher tank commander. Six CP's is more than enough to take a little bit of the bite out of a Guard alpha-strike. And that is what this system does: It pushes the alpha strike back to the second turn of the first battle round, allowing the first player a handfull of moves or shooting actions before it begins.
Using CP's to conduct a full alpha strike in the first turn is only possible by having very FEW units, like 3 knights and Guilliman or something like that, which is the systems real weakness. Having two brigades of Guard infantry would certainly not work, as you would need 36 CP's just to fire their weapons.
But I don't need to shoot with half my army, maybe 10-16 units would bother to shoot turn 1. At which point if I bid 2, and have 22 CP I still would have 6-12 CP left so similar to what you had to start with. You are making assumptions that I care about my chaff shooting turn 1. I don't I care about my artillery, and mortars. Again the list might need some tweaking, but your ork list won't be in range to attack much for several turns so if I cripple your army a bit turn 1 with my great amount of CP, then you move up and I hit you again turn 2 I still win. The point is I take chaff that I don't care about doing anything with other than occupying space, sentinels to move out for free and deny deepstrikers getting close, then I pound you with my power units.
IF scout type deployments don't count I could also go For guard brigade + raptors(Raven guard) alpha strike with something like 15 CP starting. Basically if I run an army that does not need to pay to move, pay to charge, pay to fight(unless that is free, you said a CP every phase), but if I only need to pay CP to shoot I can do way more damage, so Artillery is super powerful on that turn 1.
The sentinel scout-move does not require CP's because it is an abillity, and it happens before the first turn. But the strike from the shadows stratagem is not free, so you would have to spend 2 CP's for every unit that you would want to infiltrate and shoot with, and 4 CPs if you also wants them to move and charge. There is nothing game-breaking here, the system works as it should.
And yes, artillery would be super-powerfull on turn 1. It already is. Having to pay 1 CP to shoot that mortar HWS would certainly not make it MORE powerfull.
What makes it more powerful is getting it and also guaranteed turn 1 if I want it. That is what you are not seeing. Your system is, high CP armies can alpha strike turn 1 and have the advantage at getting turn 1, right now the opposite is true. So sure I spend a bunch on strike from the shadows, units, but if I bring Issodon from Raptors I get a bunch of free infiltrate in addition. So artillery + infiltration = alpha strike with auto-first turn.
Blacksails wrote: The only real way to fix 1st turn nonsense has always been to do away with the archaic UGOIGO turn system. Alternating unit activations entirely eliminates this problem.
Of course this would require a significant overhaul of the game, but that's the solution anyways.
I agree that alternating activations would fix the alpha strike problem, but I disagree with the idea that it would require a significant overhaul of the game (still a few tweaks, though). You could implement alternating activations in the next game you played with minimal disruption; at the very least, any disruption you did see would be outweighed by the benefits of diminished alpha strike. You could just roll off each turn to see who gets first activation, with the loser getting 1CP in compensation.
Having said that, there are cases where assigning one activation for one unit can be a problem. Lords of War might need to declare "windup" and/or "cooldown" activations that are effectively "pass" activations, in order to allow the opponent to prepare for, or respond to, the damage they cause in their main activation.
The issue is actually the opposite, Lords of War are hurt badly by straight alternating activation, as if I play lots of units with a deepstrike alpha strike, I can force those Lords of war to activate, maybe kill a small unit or 2, then get alpha struck off the table. The game would need a significant overhaul to go to straight alternate activations, there are variations of alternate activation that could work more easily, but using straight alternate activations changes the value of units quite a bit. Aura Buffs are worse, buff psykers are worse, some powers are near unusable (Da Jump from orks is horrible in alternate activation without a re-write), How do drop pods work? They are a unit right so the unit that jumps out cannot activate and gets murdered.
I agree that a transition to alternating activation would be better, but it needs a lot of work to actually function in the current 40k.
It's not that difficult or significant.
Where logical you activate 2-3 units at a time.
If you activate a unit within 3" of a character the character can activate with that unit. If a character activates within 3" of a body guard that can protect them the body guard can activate with them.
When you activate a transport you can either activate the transport itself or the units inside. If you activate the transport it moves and shoots like now. If the unit inside could shoot out of the transport it can do so with the transport. If the unit inside is activated it disembarks and does it's activation. If there is a character embarked with a unit you can activate the character using the rule above (embarked together is considered to be within 3").
When you select a unit from reserves to activate you deploy it and do it's activation. If that reserves unit is a transport or otherwise brings units with it you activate the embarked units at the same time.
Ork Psykers that can cast Da Jump are Characters. Activate the unit of Boyz, use the first rule to activate the Weirdboy with it, Do the characters activation first to manifest Da Jump, do the Boyz activation second to make use of it.
Except that you then needed to re-write your simple alternating activation to get all of that to work. The transport rule still doesn't solve units like drop pods, unless you are saying that deepstriking a vehicle does not count as activating it. What about Trygons? Units using the tunnel now cannot activate.
If you read what I wrote this is clearly spelled out. The transport is in reserves. Its your turn. You activate the drop pod, which is what allows it to be deployed and deepstriked. Was there a unit in the drop pod? It activates too.
The trygon is sitting in reserves. On your turn you activate it, which allows it to deploy onto the table and do it's turn. Was there a unit with the trygon? It activates too.
So then taking things like Trygons is super powerful, still has problems.
Oh yeah, totally. A single turn with 1 trygon and a single infantry unit is going to totally break the game.
It's not a problem. It just is what it is. The advantage of these taxi units is the deepstrike and the surprise activation. Next turn they get activated separately. You know whats worse then a trygon and it's one troop? Your entire army.
Can I activate all characters within 3" of a unit or only 1 character? If multiples what stops character spam armies from abusing the system?
All. It's an expansion of heroic intervention. What stops "Spam armies" from abusing the system is the same thing you were just complainiing about. MSU. If you want to activated 10 Astropaths as one big activation to try to move them within 18" of unit and fire off 10 mini smites then you just lost 10 activations and my next chunk of activations will be laying those astropaths to waste. Meanwhile you just lost 10 whole units because you tried to activate too much.
It's the same thing as normal MSU or larger units in a alternating activation system. MSU has little or no impact per an activation, a few massive point units are too inflexible and will get out maneuvered. Play smart.
Except this makes MSU even more powerful, do I need to force you to activate first. I do it. Am I in position to wipe you out by activating my 10 characters at once, I do it. Still a problem
Again, MSU have many units with little or no effect. It's neat in the first round, but then they get annihilated quickly. What happens by turn 3 when more than half your units are gone because they all had no staying power? Have you ever actually play tested this with 40k? Ive been doing it on and off with several systems for the last 2 years. What you are claiming are game breaking problems are in fact just not even problems. Stop looking at activations in a vacuum and consider how players will handle it over the course of a game.
I just provided a few examples where it does not work and you already had to back track on simple alternating and add additional rules to get those things to work.
Like I said alternate activation is not impossible, but it requires a significant set of changes to the rules to get it to work properly.
No you didn't. You just seemed to have trouble understanding what I wrote.
The changes are not significant. It's just logical. You activate things together that wouldn't actually work if they couldn't.
Which then creates loopholes in your alternating activation, which you need to address. You say "if things wouldn't work" who defines that, where are the exceptions made? A psyker might work ok on his own, or he might not, why do all characters get to mass activate if they want?
I see none of it as a problem. Your the one with an issue. Ive already spelled out how it would work out and what advantages and disadvantages exist because of it. The basic structure I laid out is not the best version of alternating activations but it is a fully functional one.
I could solve all the issues you describe much easier than what you have done.
Each player divides their army into battlegroups consisting of as close to 500 points as possible. When on a players "turn" he may activate 1 of these groups (which can move, cast psychic powers, shoot, charge, fight), then play passes to his opponent how activates 1 of his groups. Once both players have activated all of their battle groups the battle round ends.
Done, no other rules are needed.
Crap rule with problems you don't see for some reason. The units in 40k are meant to be moving all over the board and synergizing with lots of different units. What happens when one battlegroup gets reduced to a couple characters who can no longer keep up with the other battle groups? What happens to their auras? What happens to their protections? What happens when units don't fit into your 500 point blocks. like trying to bring the swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard in 2 tyrannocytes. Thats closer to 700 points then 500. You could split them into other battlegroups easy enough to make 2 different battelgroups, but then the tyrant guard will never be in range of the swarmlord, making the whole set up unplayable.
Your battlegroup rule is crap.
How many characters have an issue of not being able to fit into a 500 point block with other units? Rowboat? Your swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard, in tyranocytes, which have worse issues in your system because they can never come in together? If we are allowing such expensive characters to mass activate hope you like Magnus + Mortarian + a knight all activating at once in your system. Maybe you don't put the spores in your example in the same battlegroup as swarmlord and the guard? So they have to wait through 1 activation before they assault Maybe you put them in different groups and engage them with things that cannot fall back because they already activated?
Are there some issues maybe, but it is far less open to abuse than your system.
I disagree it is less open to abuse. Instead of creating a system where each side is activing small clusters AT MOST of units but mostly just activating 1 unit at a time your systems is about activating your army in pre built deathstars. It only SLIGHTLY gives some tactical flexibility (in that you get 4 activations in a 2k game instead of 1) while keeping the game about swinging clubs back and forth at each other with little or no ability to respond.
Not to mention your system creates paper work. If I have 3 units of genestealers and each one is part of a different battle group how the feth am I supposed to keep track of that on the table? Do I need both a token that follows them around all game differentiating them from the other units AND a token to mark each unit in a battlegroup when the battlegroup has been activated? What a nightmare.
You gain none of the actual benefits of alternating unit activation while doubling the problems of both IGOUGO and AA.
I mean its not like alternating activations is rocket science. It worked fine in a basic form in epic 40k, a GW game. It would work fine in normal 40k if the game was designed around it.
Bolt Action and its derivatives or dropzone commander are two examples who've done it in different ways but completely successfully.
Alternating activations isn't perfect, but its a far sight better than IGOYOUGO and its a hell of a lot more fun than sitting around rolling saves for half an hour when its not your turn.
@ lance- just because you see none of the loopholes as a problem doesn't mean they don't exist. I've played a number of different alternating activation games and out activation if it is by a significant amount is always an issue. You talk about turn 3 but if I cripple your force turn 1 it hardly matters what happens turn 3. Which is the problem we are trying to solve.
I've played games with battle group activation (drop zone commander does this) it is not difficult to figure out which units are in which battle groups, in theory we should always be marking squads anyway so that it is obvious which one has gotten which buff, if they are near each other which models belong to which squad etc. SO if I know my Genestealers with the green ring on their base are in battle group 1 and the ones with the red ring are in battle group 2 it is not difficult to track at all, and it is far easier for you and your opponent to track battle group activations than it is to track 25 individual units.
You say small clusters at most. Given the rules you have already described I can build a 2000 point army that will activate entirely in a single activation. Just make an army of almost all characters and they will all get to activate together.
So something like
Magnus
Mortarian
A bunch of winged daemon princes.
All characters within 3" of say magnus. Now I activate all of them and we are back to IgoUgo
Sure there is not as much response available as alternating activation, but 40k is not designed in a way were full alternating activation really works. It is too easy to build extra activations into lists without a lot of cost. You say you have tested it. Have you just been playing it with your typical army against your friends typical army, or have you been building armies with the express purpose of breaking the system? There is quite a lot of difference. Alternating activation works great if both players bring standard army lists with normal units, it falls apart when one player actively tries to abuse it for advantage. To the point that it ends up being essentially IGoUGO, with all the disadvantage on one side.
Breng77 wrote: @ lance- just because you see none of the loopholes as a problem doesn't mean they don't exist. I've played a number of different alternating activation games and out activation if it is by a significant amount is always an issue. You talk about turn 3 but if I cripple your force turn 1 it hardly matters what happens turn 3. Which is the problem we are trying to solve.
I've played games with battle group activation (drop zone commander does this) it is not difficult to figure out which units are in which battle groups, in theory we should always be marking squads anyway so that it is obvious which one has gotten which buff, if they are near each other which models belong to which squad etc. SO if I know my Genestealers with the green ring on their base are in battle group 1 and the ones with the red ring are in battle group 2 it is not difficult to track at all, and it is far easier for you and your opponent to track battle group activations than it is to track 25 individual units.
You say small clusters at most. Given the rules you have already described I can build a 2000 point army that will activate entirely in a single activation. Just make an army of almost all characters and they will all get to activate together.
So something like
Magnus
Mortarian
A bunch of winged daemon princes.
All characters within 3" of say magnus. Now I activate all of them and we are back to IgoUgo
Sure there is not as much response available as alternating activation, but 40k is not designed in a way were full alternating activation really works. It is too easy to build extra activations into lists without a lot of cost. You say you have tested it. Have you just been playing it with your typical army against your friends typical army, or have you been building armies with the express purpose of breaking the system? There is quite a lot of difference. Alternating activation works great if both players bring standard army lists with normal units, it falls apart when one player actively tries to abuse it for advantage. To the point that it ends up being essentially IGoUGO, with all the disadvantage on one side.
To start i wanna bring up something mentioned in another thread. We are talking house rules here. All we have is playing with your friends. You dont need to worry about tfg breaking the system because you wont be playing them.
Second, ive done a lot of testing to break against people in and out of my normal play group. The few simple rules i posted here are not the best. They are servicable. Its not what i play mostly. But they will function, it will fix first turn advantage, and it will highlight the advantages of AA over igougo. I have several threads in my post history proposing and refining systems for aa. If you want more in depth conversions look there. But you dont need to move mountains to make aa work with 8th. It basically just does.
Honestly, something simple like giving the player going second an extra CP (or D3 CP if the idea of just 1 CP isn't enough compensation) might lessen the blow of going second. Doesn't need to be complex.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Honestly, something simple like giving the player going second an extra CP (or D3 CP if the idea of just 1 CP isn't enough compensation) might lessen the blow of going second. Doesn't need to be complex.
I'd be quite happy with that actually.
Perhaps even bring back a variation of the old school night fighting rules for the first player turn only? Reduces the range for the person who gets first turn, but again is open to potential abuse.
What if on the first turn only, you could spend like 2-3 command points to get reroll on saves or a +1 save to a unit. That way if your getting hit hard you have a better chance of keeping a high value target alive.
The thing is as long as the game runs on IgoUgo even if you tip the first turn into the second players favor so that they can reasonably weather the storm of the first players first turn barrage it's then going to be the second players turn and now the first player has to survive the full force of the second players turn.
The root cause of the issue is the sheer drastic nature of a player using their entire army at once. Band aid patches to try and cover up symptoms of that root issue won't actually fix anything and in all likelihood will just create new different issues.
Midnightmullen wrote: I meant both players first turns. That way each player has a chance.
Then you just shift the real gruesome barrage issue to the beginning of turn 2. Your just moving the line where the issue takes place not actually addressing the issue.
Alternating activation, or better support for not having your whole army on at the same time for both players, is pretty much the only real way to address this problem.
Player that goes second gets to re-deploy x(d6?d3?2d3?) units? Can spend CP to re-deploy x units?
Can place x units in reserve? Can spend a CP to place x units in reserve to come in from their table edge (would get basically 2 moves from the edge on the 2nd players 1st turn?)
Army that goes first cannot deploy any units from reserve until turn 2? Beta strike armies are a thing but deep striking plasma scions are a pox on the game. At least give the person going second one round of shooting?
Limiting what your opponent can alpha-strike off the table seems to be all the rage in tournament play but not all armies are equally capable of deepstriking obliterators/scions.
Being able to re-deploy after you know you are going second would be an advantage. Not sure how much of an advantage though...
I'm just spitballing here, so take it with a grain of salt, but what if each battle round was a back-and-forth selection of each player picking a unit at a time and conducting the specified phase you are on?
I'll break it down best I can since I'm just throwing thoughts together as I speak. Let's say players roll off at the beginning of each battle round to see who starts. Player A and B are playing and Player A wins the roll-off. He can choose to go first or second. You start with the Movement phase as normal. Each player then alternates moving units until all units have moved that wish to. When a player finishes and the other player has units left, he just moves the rest as he wishes.
Then Psychic phase is the same thing. Players alternate back-and-forth one unit at a time until all units have completed their Psychic phase.
Shooting phase alternates as expected here. You activate units back-and-forth shooting at each other.
Charge and Fight phase alternate starting with units that charged/always fight first. Then moving over to the units that got charged or were already in CC. All followed up with Morale. At the beginning of the next battle round, you roll off again.
You score at the end of the Battle Round once both players have completed all of the phases. Each player's activation is considered that player's "turn". So if I have a stratagem or ability to use during, let's say, an opponent's shooting phase, then I activate it while he's on his activation during the shooting phase.
I'm not sure what kind of implications this would make. I know it would be a slight buff to elite armies since they would be able to get all of their activations off before enemy horde armies. But horde armies would still be viable for 8th edition reasons of wounding and model count.
I really feel a gameplay model like this would have a very tactical feel. Everything you do matters during every phase. If I move a unit up in order to shoot another unit, my opponent could see it and move that unit out of the way. You could focus on fighting or shooting units that haven't gone in an attempt to deny your opponent. That mentality is already in the game in the fight phase as it stands currently and is well received.
The potential issues I see is mostly with deep striking models and assault based armies in general as you'd be taking fire moving up. Partially I feel this is mainly due to the killiness of every unit in 8th edition, but I could see this model working well in later editions. Another possible solution is going through all of the phases in a unit-to-unit basis back and forth. I complete all of the phases in order on a unit one at a time back and forth up to the Fight phase which would be done simultaneously. This would help solve the deep strike and assault dilemma a bit, but still reduce the amount of fire you take before you can do anything at all.
I'm not a fan of unit activation. I would rather it be based on detatchment activations or even better unit types.
So Fast Attacks go first for both players, then Elites, then HQs then Troops then Heavies, Flyers and Lords of War....With Fortifications coming in last.
That would keep MSU armies from having a huge tactical advantage.
But I'm sure some army/lists would all but abuse this.
I would like to see the Psychic phase combined and perhaps the Morale phase as well.
Anything to speed up the game. I have a hard time finishing 4 to 6 rounds in 4 hours or less when there are 150+ models on the battlefield an many many times that number of attacks, rerolls, wounds, saves, FNP, etc
It gets down right dumb.
ps: what was wrong with 3rd edition 1st turn Safe in your deployment zone immunity???
I would introduce a 4th basic strat, to be used before the first turn and only by the player who goes second: 1CP, opponent units have -1 to hit and -1 to charge rolls. 3CP -2to hit and -3 to charge distance rolled.
This would mitigate 1st turn advantage. Call it night fighting or strategic deployment or whatever seems fit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
admironheart wrote: I'm not a fan of unit activation. I would rather it be based on detatchment activations or even better unit types.
So Fast Attacks go first for both players, then Elites, then HQs then Troops then Heavies, Flyers and Lords of War....With Fortifications coming in last.
That would keep MSU armies from having a huge tactical advantage.
But I'm sure some army/lists would all but abuse this.
I would like to see the Psychic phase combined and perhaps the Morale phase as well.
Anything to speed up the game. I have a hard time finishing 4 to 6 rounds in 4 hours or less when there are 150+ models on the battlefield an many many times that number of attacks, rerolls, wounds, saves, FNP, etc
It gets down right dumb.
ps: what was wrong with 3rd edition 1st turn Safe in your deployment zone immunity???
An activating order based on battlefield roles looks great
The issue with battlefield role is that it doesn't work terribly well when you have detachments that allow you to essentially take a single battlefield role. So I can take an army of basically all fast attack.
I think something like this would work ok if lists were say battalion only. Where everyone had a little bit in several different roles.
If detachments were smaller I think detachment based activation could work, but with things like Brigades that could be essentially IGOUGO.
This is why I think doing it by some sort of other grouping would work better because those groups could be made to be more or less equal.
While I'd love to re-design 40K into a different activation method (and will likely do so) the quick and simple fixes for the game at the moment -- ones you could simply institute with friends all revolve around removing forces from the table.
1) Sure, deep striking units can only come in on turn 2 or later (makes it more of a calculated risk of doing so)
2) Require 50% of both armies to be off-board, coming in on a 4+/3+/2+ increasing thing starting turn 2, etc.
3) Increase line of sight blocking terrain and increas eleveation (bridges, walkways, alternate areas) which vastly increase the actual size of a 6x4 table.
4) Count all units as moving in the first turn regardless of how they deploy or move (meh)
5) Allow the player who goes second to count his models as "dug in" (gaining a cover bonus of +1) for his whole army as they take the brunt of the enemy charge (models in actual cover would have +2 armour save etc.)
6) Create more terrain ruins or use fortifications etc.
7) The easiest option is not to take mega alpha-strike lists...if you know it ruins the game for your opponent, don't do it. The guys I play against share a mentality with me where we're more interested in having a fun enjoyable game than booting each other's models off the table. We take fluffy and interesting (sometimes daring) army lists and it does result in better games.
Elbows wrote: While I'd love to re-design 40K into a different activation method (and will likely do so) the quick and simple fixes for the game at the moment -- ones you could simply institute with friends all revolve around removing forces from the table.
1) Sure, deep striking units can only come in on turn 2 or later (makes it more of a calculated risk of doing so)
2) Require 50% of both armies to be off-board, coming in on a 4+/3+/2+ increasing thing starting turn 2, etc.
3) Increase line of sight blocking terrain and increas eleveation (bridges, walkways, alternate areas) which vastly increase the actual size of a 6x4 table.
4) Count all units as moving in the first turn regardless of how they deploy or move (meh)
5) Allow the player who goes second to count his models as "dug in" (gaining a cover bonus of +1) for his whole army as they take the brunt of the enemy charge (models in actual cover would have +2 armour save etc.)
6) Create more terrain ruins or use fortifications etc.
7) The easiest option is not to take mega alpha-strike lists...if you know it ruins the game for your opponent, don't do it. The guys I play against share a mentality with me where we're more interested in having a fun enjoyable game than booting each other's models off the table. We take fluffy and interesting (sometimes daring) army lists and it does result in better games.
Some good suggestions
1.) I might consider something like drop pod assault, where you can get some percentage turn 1, and then others later on. Maybe 33% rounding up can come in turn 1, then another 33% turn 2, and then the remainder turn 3. SO if you want something turn 1 you can get it, but not a whole bunch of units. For example if you have 1 deepstrike equivalent unit it can come in turn 1, if you have two you can get 1 turn 1, 1 turn 2. Etc. However to get more than 1 turn 1 you would need 4 deepstriking units, to get 3 you would need 7 etc. Given the restrictions on reserves this could make deepstrike alpha strikes very difficult to pull off.
2.) Not sure I like forced reserves, though I could see doing something like the old dawn of war deployment, with night fighting and units moving on turn 1.
3.)I agree though I think a rule stating that units shooting at things out of LOS get some penalty otherwise LOS blocking only does so much. My typical thought is -1 to hit as it reflects the loss of BS to scatter last edition.
4.)This hurts heavy weapon units more than others, especially if they don't have a move and fire ability, but could help.
5.) Could work ok, helps good armor save armies a bit more, but overall not a bad buff.
6.) I think terrain rules in general need adjusting. Giving back cover for intervening models/terrain would go a long way.
I think the best and simplest solution is having universally available defensive strats that are essentially overpowered for how much they do, but are only available to the player going second and only during his opponent's turn on the first round.
Make them separated by theme (an anti-shooting one, an anti-psyker one, an anti-assault one) and limit the usage to one only. This would encourage people to have more elements available in their lists for first turn damage, as the enemy using a strat could only hose one of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Small example of what I was talking about:
Grand stratagem: Any one of these stratagems may be used at the start of the first player's turn, but only by a player who is not going first. Only one may be used per game, and they last until the start of the using player's turn.
-fortified positions: 2cp.
Your entire army has dug in to weather the storm. All your units count as having cover. If they actually have cover, they benefit from an extra +1 to their save.
-Priority defense: X cp You have prioritized hiding certain units in your army, hoping that they will survive to begin their counterattack.
Choose 1 unit in your army for each CP spent. This unit may not be targeted by shooting attacks or declared as a charge target unless it is the closest model to that enemy. If this stratagem is used on a character with less than 10 wounds, weapons like sniper rifles that can normally ignore this restriction can not target the unit without it being closest.
-Prepare for ambush! 2 cp You have tracked the enemy movements and are prepared for a sudden assault.
At the end of your opponent's movement phase, after all reserves have arrived, any of your units in your deployment zone may perform a shooting attack targeting any enemy unit or units within 12", and/or any enemy unit or units that are at least partially in your deployment zone.
-Prepare an ambush! 1cp
Your men have their close quarters weapons drawn and are prepared to fight back. Units in your army may all heroically intervene 3" as if they were characters, characters may intervene 3" more than normal, and you may select a unit to fight first before any of the enemy units that charged may do so.
Elbows wrote:While I'd love to re-design 40K into a different activation method (and will likely do so) the quick and simple fixes for the game at the moment -- ones you could simply institute with friends all revolve around removing forces from the table.
I've started keeping a document that lays out some of the system flaws people have identified, and have begun messing with (at the theory level) various solutions. Alternating Activations is part of it.
Have Patrol Detachments go first, then Outriders, then Vanguard, Then Battalion, then Spearhead, then Brigades, followed up with Flyer Wing and Lords of War/Fortifications.
Kinda shows the flexibility of wielding those detachments.
Have Patrol Detachments go first, then Outriders, then Vanguard, Then Battalion, then Spearhead, then Brigades, followed up with Flyer Wing and Lords of War/Fortifications.
Kinda shows the flexibility of wielding those detachments.
Doesn't really work for balance. As was mentioned it means Knights always go last, so are impossible to field. It also allows for overloading damage into an earlier detachment if an army has the ability to do so. Given limited slots in a patrol detachment, if favors taking large killy units in a patrol so they can go first.
In order to fix the issue, you have to understand what the issue is and why it's an issue.
At its core, 8th edition is very killy. The IGOUGO playstyle is going to cause a problem with alpha strikes regardless. To an extent, it's a good thing since you can build an army around it. The big problem is mitigating armies with a massive amount of firepower from demolishing the opponent before the opponent can react. Realistically, assault-oriented armies that can alpha strike are not as big of an issue. With overwatch and the ability to fall back, there is a defense for the opponent.
So that leads to long range, high volume of fire. The only real solution to this is to add LOS blocking terrain. It's not as easy and just plopping it on the table everywhere. There needs to be enough open area and closed off areas where assault and gun lines are equally viable. Too much terrain and assault armies become too good.
Which this inevitably leads us to LOS ignoring units. LOS ignoring units need to be viable but not auto include. I'd suggest just adding the -1 to hit modifier for any shots that don't have LOS to the target.
I really don't see how anything else would fix the issue with 8th without a rules overhaul.
As a GK player I usually can only field a Battalion. Does this mean I'm doomed to never being able to go first?
Also to those of you proposing ideas that require players to spend CP to avoid some situations- all that really does is allow a bigger advantage to high CP armies. I'm usually at 6 CPs with no way to recover/add more. If I face an IG player (usually at 12-13 CP and a means to recover/add more points) I'm at a disadvantage to start with and you want me to dig a bigger hole just to avoid being the victim of an Alpha Strike. Yes, I know that I don't have to spend the CP but then your rule doesn't really work for low CP armies.
Have Patrol Detachments go first, then Outriders, then Vanguard, Then Battalion, then Spearhead, then Brigades, followed up with Flyer Wing and Lords of War/Fortifications.
Kinda shows the flexibility of wielding those detachments.
Doesn't really work for balance. As was mentioned it means Knights always go last, so are impossible to field. It also allows for overloading damage into an earlier detachment if an army has the ability to do so. Given limited slots in a patrol detachment, if favors taking large killy units in a patrol so they can go first.
Didnt planet fall do something like this?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: As a GK player I usually can only field a Battalion. Does this mean I'm doomed to never being able to go first?
Also to those of you proposing ideas that require players to spend CP to avoid some situations- all that really does is allow a bigger advantage to high CP armies. I'm usually at 6 CPs with no way to recover/add more. If I face an IG player (usually at 12-13 CP and a means to recover/add more points) I'm at a disadvantage to start with and you want me to dig a bigger hole just to avoid being the victim of an Alpha Strike. Yes, I know that I don't have to spend the CP but then your rule doesn't really work for low CP armies.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: As a GK player I usually can only field a Battalion. Does this mean I'm doomed to never being able to go first?
Also to those of you proposing ideas that require players to spend CP to avoid some situations- all that really does is allow a bigger advantage to high CP armies. I'm usually at 6 CPs with no way to recover/add more. If I face an IG player (usually at 12-13 CP and a means to recover/add more points) I'm at a disadvantage to start with and you want me to dig a bigger hole just to avoid being the victim of an Alpha Strike. Yes, I know that I don't have to spend the CP but then your rule doesn't really work for low CP armies.
I agree with your points. I HATE that players seem to think CP is the is-all-to-end-all answer to problems.
Stratagems don't fix problems. They are tactical options in your armies tool box to give some measure of control in a system mostly based around dice rolls.
Stop inventing stratagems to patch holes in the core mechanics.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: As a GK player I usually can only field a Battalion. Does this mean I'm doomed to never being able to go first?
Also to those of you proposing ideas that require players to spend CP to avoid some situations- all that really does is allow a bigger advantage to high CP armies. I'm usually at 6 CPs with no way to recover/add more. If I face an IG player (usually at 12-13 CP and a means to recover/add more points) I'm at a disadvantage to start with and you want me to dig a bigger hole just to avoid being the victim of an Alpha Strike. Yes, I know that I don't have to spend the CP but then your rule doesn't really work for low CP armies.
Some armies are just like that
you gotta deal with it.
You see that's the nib of it. As the rules are now I do have a chance to go first and I don't have to spend CP (that someone else can) to avoid Alpha Strike situations. Those proposals don't do anything but harm my army so why should I "deal with it" when it shouldn't happen in the first place.
BTW- I'm under no illusions as to the power level of my chosen army. "Deal with it" is just a cheap response that says that you don't have an answer and can't be bothered to add something to the conversation.
After having tried the above rule in a 1000 point game, this is an alternative version of the scheme:
1) Before deployment both players secretly writes down a number on a slip of paper.
2) The bids are revealed and the player with the higher number may elect to go first.
3) The other player receives a number of Activation Points similar to the high bid.
4) After deployment, but before the first turn, the player going second can use his Activation Points in the following manner:
Redeploy any unit within the deployment zone: 1 point. Make a move with any unit: 2 point. Charge or shoot with any unit: 3 points. Activating any Low or 300+ point unit costs double.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: As a GK player I usually can only field a Battalion. Does this mean I'm doomed to never being able to go first?
Also to those of you proposing ideas that require players to spend CP to avoid some situations- all that really does is allow a bigger advantage to high CP armies. I'm usually at 6 CPs with no way to recover/add more. If I face an IG player (usually at 12-13 CP and a means to recover/add more points) I'm at a disadvantage to start with and you want me to dig a bigger hole just to avoid being the victim of an Alpha Strike. Yes, I know that I don't have to spend the CP but then your rule doesn't really work for low CP armies.
Some armies are just like that
you gotta deal with it.
You see that's the nib of it. As the rules are now I do have a chance to go first and I don't have to spend CP (that someone else can) to avoid Alpha Strike situations. Those proposals don't do anything but harm my army so why should I "deal with it" when it shouldn't happen in the first place.
BTW- I'm under no illusions as to the power level of my chosen army. "Deal with it" is just a cheap response that says that you don't have an answer and can't be bothered to add something to the conversation.
I think you biffed the quote.
also no i dont have an answer for it as 40k is not a game that can be fair for everyone and every build or every army as every army and build is different and has different properties. its going to be unfair until the fundamental rules of the game changes to a form that benefits elite and power weapons again.
Power weapons ignored armor saves pretty much every edition. They did since 3rd anyway. In 3rd the tables were dominated by blood angels death companies and space wolf models dripping in power weapons.
Grey knights became busted for a combination of reasons. One was they were all power weapons, but then they had the draigo paladin-star "fun" build where you could take a unit of 2+ save 5++ save models and then spread the wounds around as they took them...
auticus wrote: Power weapons ignored armor saves pretty much every edition. They did since 3rd anyway. In 3rd the tables were dominated by blood angels death companies and space wolf models dripping in power weapons.
Grey knights became busted for a combination of reasons. One was they were all power weapons, but then they had the draigo paladin-star "fun" build where you could take a unit of 2+ save 5++ save models and then spread the wounds around as they took them...
All power weapons were fluffy and cool, but not that big of a deal. The biggest balance abuses I remember from the 5th ed codex were all the henchmen shenanigans. 3++ crusaders, lascannon monkies, etc.
My area was dominated by Draigo and friends, I didn't really have to deal with Coteaz and friends, I just read about it on forums.
Draigo and friends was so appealing because it was like 15 models or so that steam rolled you if you weren't running one of the other two power builds of the time.
auticus wrote: Power weapons ignored armor saves pretty much every edition. They did since 3rd anyway. In 3rd the tables were dominated by blood angels death companies and space wolf models dripping in power weapons.
Grey knights became busted for a combination of reasons. One was they were all power weapons, but then they had the draigo paladin-star "fun" build where you could take a unit of 2+ save 5++ save models and then spread the wounds around as they took them...
All power weapons were fluffy and cool, but not that big of a deal. The biggest balance abuses I remember from the 5th ed codex were all the henchmen shenanigans. 3++ crusaders, lascannon monkies, etc.
I didn't have a big problem with 5th until grey knights dropped. Once draigo and his paladins of love were on every tabletop every weekend for months and months, I quit 40k for a long period of time.
auticus wrote: Yeah. The other build. Coteaz and friends.
My area was dominated by Draigo and friends, I didn't really have to deal with Coteaz and friends, I just read about it on forums.
Draigo and friends was so appealing because it was like 15 models or so that steam rolled you if you weren't running one of the other two power builds of the time.
auticus wrote: Power weapons ignored armor saves pretty much every edition. They did since 3rd anyway. In 3rd the tables were dominated by blood angels death companies and space wolf models dripping in power weapons.
Grey knights became busted for a combination of reasons. One was they were all power weapons, but then they had the draigo paladin-star "fun" build where you could take a unit of 2+ save 5++ save models and then spread the wounds around as they took them...
All power weapons were fluffy and cool, but not that big of a deal. The biggest balance abuses I remember from the 5th ed codex were all the henchmen shenanigans. 3++ crusaders, lascannon monkies, etc.
I didn't have a big problem with 5th until grey knights dropped. Once draigo and his paladins of love were on every tabletop every weekend for months and months, I quit 40k for a long period of time.
To be fair, I only read about both builds. I'm still the only GK player I know of and only had middle of the road results with my all terminator list. I don't consider myself particularly competitive though so YMMV.
. What about players who only get 6-7 
