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@ lance- just because you see none of the loopholes as a problem doesn't mean they don't exist. I've played a number of different alternating activation games and out activation if it is by a significant amount is always an issue. You talk about turn 3 but if I cripple your force turn 1 it hardly matters what happens turn 3. Which is the problem we are trying to solve.

I've played games with battle group activation (drop zone commander does this) it is not difficult to figure out which units are in which battle groups, in theory we should always be marking squads anyway so that it is obvious which one has gotten which buff, if they are near each other which models belong to which squad etc. SO if I know my Genestealers with the green ring on their base are in battle group 1 and the ones with the red ring are in battle group 2 it is not difficult to track at all, and it is far easier for you and your opponent to track battle group activations than it is to track 25 individual units.

You say small clusters at most. Given the rules you have already described I can build a 2000 point army that will activate entirely in a single activation. Just make an army of almost all characters and they will all get to activate together.

So something like
Magnus
Mortarian
A bunch of winged daemon princes.

All characters within 3" of say magnus. Now I activate all of them and we are back to IgoUgo

Sure there is not as much response available as alternating activation, but 40k is not designed in a way were full alternating activation really works. It is too easy to build extra activations into lists without a lot of cost. You say you have tested it. Have you just been playing it with your typical army against your friends typical army, or have you been building armies with the express purpose of breaking the system? There is quite a lot of difference. Alternating activation works great if both players bring standard army lists with normal units, it falls apart when one player actively tries to abuse it for advantage. To the point that it ends up being essentially IGoUGO, with all the disadvantage on one side.

Alt activation also kinda works better for games with less range than the entire board.

it makes it so that turn one is all about juking and baiting and positioning.

turn two becomes about slugging out damage and three being the decisive blow.

Breng77 wrote:
@ lance- just because you see none of the loopholes as a problem doesn't mean they don't exist. I've played a number of different alternating activation games and out activation if it is by a significant amount is always an issue. You talk about turn 3 but if I cripple your force turn 1 it hardly matters what happens turn 3. Which is the problem we are trying to solve.

I've played games with battle group activation (drop zone commander does this) it is not difficult to figure out which units are in which battle groups, in theory we should always be marking squads anyway so that it is obvious which one has gotten which buff, if they are near each other which models belong to which squad etc. SO if I know my Genestealers with the green ring on their base are in battle group 1 and the ones with the red ring are in battle group 2 it is not difficult to track at all, and it is far easier for you and your opponent to track battle group activations than it is to track 25 individual units.

You say small clusters at most. Given the rules you have already described I can build a 2000 point army that will activate entirely in a single activation. Just make an army of almost all characters and they will all get to activate together.

So something like
Magnus
Mortarian
A bunch of winged daemon princes.

All characters within 3" of say magnus. Now I activate all of them and we are back to IgoUgo

Sure there is not as much response available as alternating activation, but 40k is not designed in a way were full alternating activation really works. It is too easy to build extra activations into lists without a lot of cost. You say you have tested it. Have you just been playing it with your typical army against your friends typical army, or have you been building armies with the express purpose of breaking the system? There is quite a lot of difference. Alternating activation works great if both players bring standard army lists with normal units, it falls apart when one player actively tries to abuse it for advantage. To the point that it ends up being essentially IGoUGO, with all the disadvantage on one side.

To start i wanna bring up something mentioned in another thread. We are talking house rules here. All we have is playing with your friends. You dont need to worry about tfg breaking the system because you wont be playing them.

Second, ive done a lot of testing to break against people in and out of my normal play group. The few simple rules i posted here are not the best. They are servicable. Its not what i play mostly. But they will function, it will fix first turn advantage, and it will highlight the advantages of AA over igougo. I have several threads in my post history proposing and refining systems for aa. If you want more in depth conversions look there. But you dont need to move mountains to make aa work with 8th. It basically just does.

Honestly, something simple like giving the player going second an extra CP (or D3 CP if the idea of just 1 CP isn't enough compensation) might lessen the blow of going second. Doesn't need to be complex.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Honestly, something simple like giving the player going second an extra CP (or D3 CP if the idea of just 1 CP isn't enough compensation) might lessen the blow of going second. Doesn't need to be complex.

I'd be quite happy with that actually.

Perhaps even bring back a variation of the old school night fighting rules for the first player turn only? Reduces the range for the person who gets first turn, but again is open to potential abuse.

What if on the first turn only, you could spend like 2-3 command points to get reroll on saves or a +1 save to a unit. That way if your getting hit hard you have a better chance of keeping a high value target alive.

The thing is as long as the game runs on IgoUgo even if you tip the first turn into the second players favor so that they can reasonably weather the storm of the first players first turn barrage it's then going to be the second players turn and now the first player has to survive the full force of the second players turn.

The root cause of the issue is the sheer drastic nature of a player using their entire army at once. Band aid patches to try and cover up symptoms of that root issue won't actually fix anything and in all likelihood will just create new different issues.

Fix the actual problem. The turn structure.

I meant both players first turns. That way each player has a chance.

Midnightmullen wrote:
I meant both players first turns. That way each player has a chance.

Then you just shift the real gruesome barrage issue to the beginning of turn 2. Your just moving the line where the issue takes place not actually addressing the issue.

Alternating activation, or better support for not having your whole army on at the same time for both players, is pretty much the only real way to address this problem.

M.

Player that goes second gets to re-deploy x(d6?d3?2d3?) units? Can spend CP to re-deploy x units?

Can place x units in reserve? Can spend a CP to place x units in reserve to come in from their table edge (would get basically 2 moves from the edge on the 2nd players 1st turn?)

Army that goes first cannot deploy any units from reserve until turn 2? Beta strike armies are a thing but deep striking plasma scions are a pox on the game. At least give the person going second one round of shooting?

Limiting what your opponent can alpha-strike off the table seems to be all the rage in tournament play but not all armies are equally capable of deepstriking obliterators/scions.

Being able to re-deploy after you know you are going second would be an advantage. Not sure how much of an advantage though...

I think the issue is that stuff just needs to do less damage.

I'm just spitballing here, so take it with a grain of salt, but what if each battle round was a back-and-forth selection of each player picking a unit at a time and conducting the specified phase you are on?

I'll break it down best I can since I'm just throwing thoughts together as I speak. Let's say players roll off at the beginning of each battle round to see who starts. Player A and B are playing and Player A wins the roll-off. He can choose to go first or second. You start with the Movement phase as normal. Each player then alternates moving units until all units have moved that wish to. When a player finishes and the other player has units left, he just moves the rest as he wishes.

Then Psychic phase is the same thing. Players alternate back-and-forth one unit at a time until all units have completed their Psychic phase.

Shooting phase alternates as expected here. You activate units back-and-forth shooting at each other.

Charge and Fight phase alternate starting with units that charged/always fight first. Then moving over to the units that got charged or were already in CC. All followed up with Morale. At the beginning of the next battle round, you roll off again.

You score at the end of the Battle Round once both players have completed all of the phases. Each player's activation is considered that player's "turn". So if I have a stratagem or ability to use during, let's say, an opponent's shooting phase, then I activate it while he's on his activation during the shooting phase.

I'm not sure what kind of implications this would make. I know it would be a slight buff to elite armies since they would be able to get all of their activations off before enemy horde armies. But horde armies would still be viable for 8th edition reasons of wounding and model count.

I really feel a gameplay model like this would have a very tactical feel. Everything you do matters during every phase. If I move a unit up in order to shoot another unit, my opponent could see it and move that unit out of the way. You could focus on fighting or shooting units that haven't gone in an attempt to deny your opponent. That mentality is already in the game in the fight phase as it stands currently and is well received.

The potential issues I see is mostly with deep striking models and assault based armies in general as you'd be taking fire moving up. Partially I feel this is mainly due to the killiness of every unit in 8th edition, but I could see this model working well in later editions. Another possible solution is going through all of the phases in a unit-to-unit basis back and forth. I complete all of the phases in order on a unit one at a time back and forth up to the Fight phase which would be done simultaneously. This would help solve the deep strike and assault dilemma a bit, but still reduce the amount of fire you take before you can do anything at all.

I'm not a fan of unit activation. I would rather it be based on detatchment activations or even better unit types.

So Fast Attacks go first for both players, then Elites, then HQs then Troops then Heavies, Flyers and Lords of War....With Fortifications coming in last.

That would keep MSU armies from having a huge tactical advantage.

But I'm sure some army/lists would all but abuse this.

I would like to see the Psychic phase combined and perhaps the Morale phase as well.

Anything to speed up the game. I have a hard time finishing 4 to 6 rounds in 4 hours or less when there are 150+ models on the battlefield an many many times that number of attacks, rerolls, wounds, saves, FNP, etc

It gets down right dumb.

ps: what was wrong with 3rd edition 1st turn Safe in your deployment zone immunity???

I would introduce a 4th basic strat, to be used before the first turn and only by the player who goes second: 1CP, opponent units have -1 to hit and -1 to charge rolls. 3CP -2to hit and -3 to charge distance rolled.

This would mitigate 1st turn advantage. Call it night fighting or strategic deployment or whatever seems fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 admironheart wrote:
I'm not a fan of unit activation. I would rather it be based on detatchment activations or even better unit types.

So Fast Attacks go first for both players, then Elites, then HQs then Troops then Heavies, Flyers and Lords of War....With Fortifications coming in last.

That would keep MSU armies from having a huge tactical advantage.

But I'm sure some army/lists would all but abuse this.

I would like to see the Psychic phase combined and perhaps the Morale phase as well.

Anything to speed up the game. I have a hard time finishing 4 to 6 rounds in 4 hours or less when there are 150+ models on the battlefield an many many times that number of attacks, rerolls, wounds, saves, FNP, etc

It gets down right dumb.

ps: what was wrong with 3rd edition 1st turn Safe in your deployment zone immunity???

An activating order based on battlefield roles looks great

The issue with battlefield role is that it doesn't work terribly well when you have detachments that allow you to essentially take a single battlefield role. So I can take an army of basically all fast attack.

I think something like this would work ok if lists were say battalion only. Where everyone had a little bit in several different roles.

If detachments were smaller I think detachment based activation could work, but with things like Brigades that could be essentially IGOUGO.

This is why I think doing it by some sort of other grouping would work better because those groups could be made to be more or less equal.

While I'd love to re-design 40K into a different activation method (and will likely do so) the quick and simple fixes for the game at the moment -- ones you could simply institute with friends all revolve around removing forces from the table.

1) Sure, deep striking units can only come in on turn 2 or later (makes it more of a calculated risk of doing so)

2) Require 50% of both armies to be off-board, coming in on a 4+/3+/2+ increasing thing starting turn 2, etc.

3) Increase line of sight blocking terrain and increas eleveation (bridges, walkways, alternate areas) which vastly increase the actual size of a 6x4 table.

4) Count all units as moving in the first turn regardless of how they deploy or move (meh)

5) Allow the player who goes second to count his models as "dug in" (gaining a cover bonus of +1) for his whole army as they take the brunt of the enemy charge (models in actual cover would have +2 armour save etc.)

6) Create more terrain ruins or use fortifications etc.

7) The easiest option is not to take mega alpha-strike lists...if you know it ruins the game for your opponent, don't do it. The guys I play against share a mentality with me where we're more interested in having a fun enjoyable game than booting each other's models off the table. We take fluffy and interesting (sometimes daring) army lists and it does result in better games.

 Elbows wrote:
While I'd love to re-design 40K into a different activation method (and will likely do so) the quick and simple fixes for the game at the moment -- ones you could simply institute with friends all revolve around removing forces from the table.

1) Sure, deep striking units can only come in on turn 2 or later (makes it more of a calculated risk of doing so)

2) Require 50% of both armies to be off-board, coming in on a 4+/3+/2+ increasing thing starting turn 2, etc.

3) Increase line of sight blocking terrain and increas eleveation (bridges, walkways, alternate areas) which vastly increase the actual size of a 6x4 table.

4) Count all units as moving in the first turn regardless of how they deploy or move (meh)

5) Allow the player who goes second to count his models as "dug in" (gaining a cover bonus of +1) for his whole army as they take the brunt of the enemy charge (models in actual cover would have +2 armour save etc.)

6) Create more terrain ruins or use fortifications etc.

7) The easiest option is not to take mega alpha-strike lists...if you know it ruins the game for your opponent, don't do it. The guys I play against share a mentality with me where we're more interested in having a fun enjoyable game than booting each other's models off the table. We take fluffy and interesting (sometimes daring) army lists and it does result in better games.

Some good suggestions

1.) I might consider something like drop pod assault, where you can get some percentage turn 1, and then others later on. Maybe 33% rounding up can come in turn 1, then another 33% turn 2, and then the remainder turn 3. SO if you want something turn 1 you can get it, but not a whole bunch of units. For example if you have 1 deepstrike equivalent unit it can come in turn 1, if you have two you can get 1 turn 1, 1 turn 2. Etc. However to get more than 1 turn 1 you would need 4 deepstriking units, to get 3 you would need 7 etc. Given the restrictions on reserves this could make deepstrike alpha strikes very difficult to pull off.

2.) Not sure I like forced reserves, though I could see doing something like the old dawn of war deployment, with night fighting and units moving on turn 1.

3.)I agree though I think a rule stating that units shooting at things out of LOS get some penalty otherwise LOS blocking only does so much. My typical thought is -1 to hit as it reflects the loss of BS to scatter last edition.

4.)This hurts heavy weapon units more than others, especially if they don't have a move and fire ability, but could help.

5.) Could work ok, helps good armor save armies a bit more, but overall not a bad buff.

6.) I think terrain rules in general need adjusting. Giving back cover for intervening models/terrain would go a long way.

I think the best and simplest solution is having universally available defensive strats that are essentially overpowered for how much they do, but are only available to the player going second and only during his opponent's turn on the first round.
Make them separated by theme (an anti-shooting one, an anti-psyker one, an anti-assault one) and limit the usage to one only. This would encourage people to have more elements available in their lists for first turn damage, as the enemy using a strat could only hose one of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Small example of what I was talking about:
Grand stratagem: Any one of these stratagems may be used at the start of the first player's turn, but only by a player who is not going first. Only one may be used per game, and they last until the start of the using player's turn.

-fortified positions: 2cp.
Your entire army has dug in to weather the storm. All your units count as having cover. If they actually have cover, they benefit from an extra +1 to their save.

-Priority defense: X cp
You have prioritized hiding certain units in your army, hoping that they will survive to begin their counterattack.
Choose 1 unit in your army for each CP spent. This unit may not be targeted by shooting attacks or declared as a charge target unless it is the closest model to that enemy. If this stratagem is used on a character with less than 10 wounds, weapons like sniper rifles that can normally ignore this restriction can not target the unit without it being closest.

-Prepare for ambush! 2 cp
You have tracked the enemy movements and are prepared for a sudden assault.
At the end of your opponent's movement phase, after all reserves have arrived, any of your units in your deployment zone may perform a shooting attack targeting any enemy unit or units within 12", and/or any enemy unit or units that are at least partially in your deployment zone.

-Prepare an ambush! 1cp
Your men have their close quarters weapons drawn and are prepared to fight back. Units in your army may all heroically intervene 3" as if they were characters, characters may intervene 3" more than normal, and you may select a unit to fight first before any of the enemy units that charged may do so.

Elbows wrote:While I'd love to re-design 40K into a different activation method (and will likely do so) the quick and simple fixes for the game at the moment -- ones you could simply institute with friends all revolve around removing forces from the table.

I've started keeping a document that lays out some of the system flaws people have identified, and have begun messing with (at the theory level) various solutions. Alternating Activations is part of it.

M.

Keep in mind that anything that tips the balance in turn one only lasts for turn one. All the issues of IgoUgo will come back full force on turn 2.

Another thought.

Have Patrol Detachments go first, then Outriders, then Vanguard, Then Battalion, then Spearhead, then Brigades, followed up with Flyer Wing and Lords of War/Fortifications.

Kinda shows the flexibility of wielding those detachments.

Wait so why do Lords of War go after Brigades?

Are you telling me it's harder for 3 knights to get organized than it is for 6 troops, 3 HQ, 3 FA, 3 HS, 3 Elites?

 admironheart wrote:
Another thought.

Have Patrol Detachments go first, then Outriders, then Vanguard, Then Battalion, then Spearhead, then Brigades, followed up with Flyer Wing and Lords of War/Fortifications.

Kinda shows the flexibility of wielding those detachments.

Doesn't really work for balance. As was mentioned it means Knights always go last, so are impossible to field. It also allows for overloading damage into an earlier detachment if an army has the ability to do so. Given limited slots in a patrol detachment, if favors taking large killy units in a patrol so they can go first.

In order to fix the issue, you have to understand what the issue is and why it's an issue.

At its core, 8th edition is very killy. The IGOUGO playstyle is going to cause a problem with alpha strikes regardless. To an extent, it's a good thing since you can build an army around it. The big problem is mitigating armies with a massive amount of firepower from demolishing the opponent before the opponent can react. Realistically, assault-oriented armies that can alpha strike are not as big of an issue. With overwatch and the ability to fall back, there is a defense for the opponent.

So that leads to long range, high volume of fire. The only real solution to this is to add LOS blocking terrain. It's not as easy and just plopping it on the table everywhere. There needs to be enough open area and closed off areas where assault and gun lines are equally viable. Too much terrain and assault armies become too good.

Which this inevitably leads us to LOS ignoring units. LOS ignoring units need to be viable but not auto include. I'd suggest just adding the -1 to hit modifier for any shots that don't have LOS to the target.

I really don't see how anything else would fix the issue with 8th without a rules overhaul.

As a GK player I usually can only field a Battalion. Does this mean I'm doomed to never being able to go first?

Also to those of you proposing ideas that require players to spend CP to avoid some situations- all that really does is allow a bigger advantage to high CP armies. I'm usually at 6 CPs with no way to recover/add more. If I face an IG player (usually at 12-13 CP and a means to recover/add more points) I'm at a disadvantage to start with and you want me to dig a bigger hole just to avoid being the victim of an Alpha Strike. Yes, I know that I don't have to spend the CP but then your rule doesn't really work for low CP armies.

Breng77 wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Another thought.

Have Patrol Detachments go first, then Outriders, then Vanguard, Then Battalion, then Spearhead, then Brigades, followed up with Flyer Wing and Lords of War/Fortifications.

Kinda shows the flexibility of wielding those detachments.

Doesn't really work for balance. As was mentioned it means Knights always go last, so are impossible to field. It also allows for overloading damage into an earlier detachment if an army has the ability to do so. Given limited slots in a patrol detachment, if favors taking large killy units in a patrol so they can go first.

Didnt planet fall do something like this?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
As a GK player I usually can only field a Battalion. Does this mean I'm doomed to never being able to go first?

Also to those of you proposing ideas that require players to spend CP to avoid some situations- all that really does is allow a bigger advantage to high CP armies. I'm usually at 6 CPs with no way to recover/add more. If I face an IG player (usually at 12-13 CP and a means to recover/add more points) I'm at a disadvantage to start with and you want me to dig a bigger hole just to avoid being the victim of an Alpha Strike. Yes, I know that I don't have to spend the CP but then your rule doesn't really work for low CP armies.

Some armies are just like that

you gotta deal with it.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
As a GK player I usually can only field a Battalion. Does this mean I'm doomed to never being able to go first?

Also to those of you proposing ideas that require players to spend CP to avoid some situations- all that really does is allow a bigger advantage to high CP armies. I'm usually at 6 CPs with no way to recover/add more. If I face an IG player (usually at 12-13 CP and a means to recover/add more points) I'm at a disadvantage to start with and you want me to dig a bigger hole just to avoid being the victim of an Alpha Strike. Yes, I know that I don't have to spend the CP but then your rule doesn't really work for low CP armies.

I agree with your points. I HATE that players seem to think CP is the is-all-to-end-all answer to problems.

Stratagems don't fix problems. They are tactical options in your armies tool box to give some measure of control in a system mostly based around dice rolls.

Stop inventing stratagems to patch holes in the core mechanics.

Breng77 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
As a GK player I usually can only field a Battalion. Does this mean I'm doomed to never being able to go first?

Also to those of you proposing ideas that require players to spend CP to avoid some situations- all that really does is allow a bigger advantage to high CP armies. I'm usually at 6 CPs with no way to recover/add more. If I face an IG player (usually at 12-13 CP and a means to recover/add more points) I'm at a disadvantage to start with and you want me to dig a bigger hole just to avoid being the victim of an Alpha Strike. Yes, I know that I don't have to spend the CP but then your rule doesn't really work for low CP armies.

Some armies are just like that

you gotta deal with it.

You see that's the nib of it. As the rules are now I do have a chance to go first and I don't have to spend CP (that someone else can) to avoid Alpha Strike situations. Those proposals don't do anything but harm my army so why should I "deal with it" when it shouldn't happen in the first place.

BTW- I'm under no illusions as to the power level of my chosen army. "Deal with it" is just a cheap response that says that you don't have an answer and can't be bothered to add something to the conversation.

After having tried the above rule in a 1000 point game, this is an alternative version of the scheme:

1) Before deployment both players secretly writes down a number on a slip of paper.

2) The bids are revealed and the player with the higher number may elect to go first.

3) The other player receives a number of Activation Points similar to the high bid.

4) After deployment, but before the first turn, the player going second can use his Activation Points in the following manner:

Redeploy any unit within the deployment zone: 1 point. Make a move with any unit: 2 point. Charge or shoot with any unit: 3 points. Activating any Low or 300+ point unit costs double.

Waddayathink? Is it broken?