Any other grey knights players salty about the Custodes rules? There stuff is most comparable to our paladins, to which the Custodes are more powerful for cheaper.

Grey Knights was an over-correction for sure, but you're also not supposed to use Grey Knights as a stand-alone army.

If it bothers you just use them as counts-as Custodes.

They even wear Gold instead of Silver!

 Galas wrote:
They even wear Gold instead of Silver!

Proof that TTS-verse is leaking into Canon!

as someone with a Grey Knights army I'm a little salty but at the same time I was gonna make a custodes army anyway so there's that at least.

I don’t think it should bother any Imperium player... the soup just got a lot more meaty.

Not really. I had a mostly GK Terminator army well before it was cool. Now I have a silver Space Janitor army and a small handful of GK strikes to show up with them.

The wheel keeps turning.

I remember before Matt Award when GK were an absolute joke. They are still viable but not top tier now.

If you are going to be salty about anything I would be salty about my Thousand Sons getting 18 powers, while you guys have 6 and nerf smite on your characters. Grey Knights need at least one more set of 6 powers, and HQ with real smite.

As a "GK player" whose army has been almost entirely shelved for some years now the Custodes annoy me a lot less than any GK rules that have come out ever. The fact that the Custodes are running around 'doing the Grey Knights' job better' is fine for them; there are plenty of armies with overlap where one is just better than the other (literally nothing about Corsairs is anything other than playing Dark Eldar badly).

What annoys me is that GW persistently refuses to write GK properly, instead preferring to entrench themselves in incredibly stupid positions ("This one unit needs to be stretched to an entire army by giving it enough minor variations in stats that we can claim it's actually six units!" "Every unit absolutely needs to have full psyker rules used in the psychic phase like an HQ psyker!" "Every model must have a literal force weapon!" "No, we don't need any multi-damage ranged weapons in 8th, we'll be fine!" "One Attack is totally fine for a unit that's paying 20pts/model minimum for expensive melee weapons!").

We don't need the Custodes to go die in a fire as punishment for daring to steal the shiny spotlight, or Primaris Grey Knights to come along and render the old stuff redundant. What we need is for the word "force" to disappear from Nemesis weapons so they can be toned down until Grey Knights don't start at 20pts/model, Brotherhood of Psykers to f*** off and get replaced with something less useless (the Shrouding, for instance), and possibly a ranged arsenal that's larger/more versatile than four different ways to kill infantry.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
...but you're also not supposed to use Grey Knights as a stand-alone army.

According to...?

All of their fluff, and lore?

Grey Knights should get a strategem that lets you summon back anything killed by a Custodes model the previous turn.

If grey knights are the elite of the elite why do they have 1 attack on their guys?

copy and paste lol

If grey knights had 2,3 on the sarge their cost would be easier to swallow.

Custodes can do the same thing, just let me do it with more bodies.
Can they even justify the points for a paladin now with a custodian doing it better for the same?

But i always thought terminators of all flavors were overpriced

 Elbows wrote:
All of their fluff, and lore?

Their fluff and lore have them operating completely independent of other Imperial forces, so much so that any interaction leads to mass deaths and/or mind wipes for the non-GK forces. GK are so tuned to stand alone and self support, they send a single Squad to handle a Company’s workload. Just because GK were a support faction in 1e-4e does not mean that 5e did not change them in to a stand alone army that has existed fine through 6e and 7e until now. There is nothing in the current 8e codex that states that GK require other forces to operate.

SJ

I'll be god honest, idk why gk players even attempt to field their army anymore, they have just got drug over the coals constantly.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I'll be god honest, idk why gk players even attempt to field their army anymore, they have just got drug over the coals constantly.

Best Grey Knights player.

People think it matters. Of course when you're one of 3 GK players at an event who really cares?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I'll be god honest, idk why gk players even attempt to field their army anymore, they have just got drug over the coals constantly.

Best Grey Knights player.

People think it matters. Of course when you're one of 3 GK players at an event who really cares?

How many grey knights players do you think will be at LVO?

What happens if zero show up? lol

Grey Knights has been replaced, just like old marines has been replaced by Primaris Marines. And just like old marines, Grey Knights were not removed from the game, but has been allowed to soldier on with old models and mediocre rules, until the day comes, where GK can be cut without too much of an angry response from the customer base. It is called being squatted by gradual decay. Cheers.

All it takes is a plurality of points be point into GK to qualify as a GK army at the LVO. So if you have 3 GMDK @800 pts and 2 600 pt detachments of anything (including 2 of the same faction) you're a GK army.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I'll be god honest, idk why gk players even attempt to field their army anymore, they have just got drug over the coals constantly.

Best Grey Knights player.

People think it matters. Of course when you're one of 3 GK players at an event who really cares?

How many grey knights players do you think will be at LVO?

What happens if zero show up? lol

Someone will, just because "Best GK" is going to be pretty easy with nobody else using them.

This is a fun thread.

On the contrary it gives me hope that the next GK codex will actually be good. I keep banging this drum but the GK codex was probably rushed and wasn't able to be changed before release so I don't really feel put out because it's not a real update like thenlater codexes, just the index with stratagems dumped on top.

This whole thing sounds like "Sister of Battle Problems"

Seriously though, it blows getting a crappy update. Going from one of the best armies to "trash tier" is the worst.

 Mmmpi wrote:
This whole thing sounds like "Sister of Battle Problems"

Seriously though, it blows getting a crappy update. Going from one of the best armies to "trash tier" is the worst.

Uh, grey Knights have been trash since after 5th

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Grey Knights was an over-correction for sure, but you're also not supposed to use Grey Knights as a stand-alone army.

then what is the point for the GK army to even exists?
ANY army that has a codex is ment to be able to played whitout any other mixin from other armies.

personly i am allways looking for an elite 3 wound model army but 8th aint designed for elite armys sadly, so it dont relay matters that they dont fix GK int his edition.

They should be salty grey knights got screwed with a bad codex. This is just insult to injury.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Grey Knights was an over-correction for sure, but you're also not supposed to use Grey Knights as a stand-alone army.

then what is the point for the GK army to even exists?
ANY army that has a codex is ment to be able to played whitout any other mixin from other armies.

personly i am allways looking for an elite 3 wound model army but 8th aint designed for elite armys sadly, so it dont relay matters that they dont fix GK int his edition.

If you were playing 'true to the fluff', then you would make a 500-1000 pt detachment of Grey Knights from the Codex and field it alongside some other Imperial detachment. The Codex gives you lots of options to create variety, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should field 3000 pts of Grey Knights. The beauty of the hobby is you can do what you like (so you can field 3000pts of GK if you like), but people like playing against fluffy armies because it makes the game feel more embedded in the wider story of 40k.

I know from first hand experience - my army is half GK, half inquisitorial stormtroopers*, and people always get excited by how fluffy that is.

*I'm not trying to claim bragging rights - in fact, I just made the army that way because the 3rd ed daemonhunters codex told me to do it, and it was cheaper than an army of metal Grey Knights!

 corpuschain wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Grey Knights was an over-correction for sure, but you're also not supposed to use Grey Knights as a stand-alone army.

then what is the point for the GK army to even exists?
ANY army that has a codex is ment to be able to played whitout any other mixin from other armies.

personly i am allways looking for an elite 3 wound model army but 8th aint designed for elite armys sadly, so it dont relay matters that they dont fix GK int his edition.

If you were playing 'true to the fluff', then you would make a 500-1000 pt detachment of Grey Knights from the Codex and field it alongside some other Imperial detachment. The Codex gives you lots of options to create variety, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should field 3000 pts of Grey Knights. The beauty of the hobby is you can do what you like (so you can field 3000pts of GK if you like), but people like playing against fluffy armies because it makes the game feel more embedded in the wider story of 40k.

I know from first hand experience - my army is half GK, half inquisitorial stormtroopers*, and people always get excited by how fluffy that is.

*I'm not trying to claim bragging rights - in fact, I just made the army that way because the 3rd ed daemonhunters codex told me to do it, and it was cheaper than an army of metal Grey Knights!

No Grey Knight player would complain if they gave us our Inquisition back, or even renamed us to “Daemonhunters” again. I personally would love it.

Custodes sure feel like 5th edition Grey Knights. GK need a rework to find their place somewhere between custodes and deathwing. I think additional powers like TS might be the solution, plus fine tuning.

Remember how Chapter Approved was going to fix all this?

Yeah, right.

Same old GeeDerps. They still suck at balance.

The problem with Grey Knights is they are supposed to only fight Daemons, which means their rules have to affect daemons. These rules can't be free (That would be unfair to the Daemon Player) so the GK have to pay points for rules that would be useless 99% of the time.

As a Tson player I loathe the new smite nerf (which it was never a beta rule it seems). But not for what it does to my army. But for how badly it hurts GK's as a faction. I expect a meaty FAQ or chapter approved to fix these problems. I feel for you GK guys. But just remember that power levels is a circular thing. At one point GK's were at the top of food chain and are now at the bottom. Im sure it will swing back at some point? If this "beta" rule hits I would almost demand a FAQ for GK's to llaunch with the rule. And I am not a GK player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zerosignal wrote:
Remember how Chapter Approved was going to fix all this?

Yeah, right.

Same old GeeDerps. They still suck at balance.

It has helped alot. But yes, GK's and guard do illustrate they have alot more to learn about balance.

 corpuschain wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Grey Knights was an over-correction for sure, but you're also not supposed to use Grey Knights as a stand-alone army.

then what is the point for the GK army to even exists?
ANY army that has a codex is ment to be able to played whitout any other mixin from other armies.

personly i am allways looking for an elite 3 wound model army but 8th aint designed for elite armys sadly, so it dont relay matters that they dont fix GK int his edition.

If you were playing 'true to the fluff', then you would make a 500-1000 pt detachment of Grey Knights from the Codex and field it alongside some other Imperial detachment. The Codex gives you lots of options to create variety, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should field 3000 pts of Grey Knights. The beauty of the hobby is you can do what you like (so you can field 3000pts of GK if you like), but people like playing against fluffy armies because it makes the game feel more embedded in the wider story of 40k.

I know from first hand experience - my army is half GK, half inquisitorial stormtroopers*, and people always get excited by how fluffy that is.

*I'm not trying to claim bragging rights - in fact, I just made the army that way because the 3rd ed daemonhunters codex told me to do it, and it was cheaper than an army of metal Grey Knights!

Why does this logic not apply to Custodes though? Not to call you out specifically, you're not really addressing Custodes here. But it's sort of an eyebrow-raising point I've seen around dakka and in other places (Reecius makes it too): if certain armies suck, people will say "well, they're not meant to be played as a standalone force". I think it's a lazy justification to not try and fix GK -- as people have noted in this thread, it wouldn't be hard to give them a little boost and be a bit more points efficient.

 corpuschain wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Grey Knights was an over-correction for sure, but you're also not supposed to use Grey Knights as a stand-alone army.

then what is the point for the GK army to even exists?
ANY army that has a codex is ment to be able to played whitout any other mixin from other armies.

personly i am allways looking for an elite 3 wound model army but 8th aint designed for elite armys sadly, so it dont relay matters that they dont fix GK int his edition.

If you were playing 'true to the fluff', then you would make a 500-1000 pt detachment of Grey Knights from the Codex and field it alongside some other Imperial detachment. The Codex gives you lots of options to create variety, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should field 3000 pts of Grey Knights. The beauty of the hobby is you can do what you like (so you can field 3000pts of GK if you like), but people like playing against fluffy armies because it makes the game feel more embedded in the wider story of 40k.

I know from first hand experience - my army is half GK, half inquisitorial stormtroopers*, and people always get excited by how fluffy that is.

*I'm not trying to claim bragging rights - in fact, I just made the army that way because the 3rd ed daemonhunters codex told me to do it, and it was cheaper than an army of metal Grey Knights!

Exactly.

And yes, GK suffer from 'you are not new plastic' syndrome, and so will be nerfed or forgotten in lieu of new plastic, cuz GW wants to sell models to people who have all that they thought they ever needed, in the form of the current switch to software as a service or any other thing as a service, ownership is not good for business. SO, the current business mania is sell them a subscription and make them pay for it every wk/mnth/yr until the end of time, and kick them to the curb when they stop.
This is GWs current business strategy.
No mystery - just MBAs being MBAs.

Frankly, I like the new Goldenscaste Fraternals for their collectability,
they are nifty dudes, except for the silly hair,
but they should RARELY see a 40k table and then only in special scenarios.
NEVER should there be a Goldencaste army...
Ever.
But, GW will fudge that, to keep the credit cards swiping.
Plastic crack for the plastic crack lords, err...
hobby as a subscription service wth rules to reinforce the payment plan,
a sort of extortion, on-table performance for hire.

As a hobbyist with a bit of most everything,
I will be skipping this release however,
as with Ao$ it smells funny.

I'm still not sure what people mean when they say "standalone army" anymore.

Inquisition had a codex in 6th and 7th and has a faction and army list in 8th, but I would never call them standalone.

"Imperial Agents" was a codex in 7th and was also not a standalone army.

"Standalone army" seems like a naff term in 8th edition. It's 5th edition leaking into 8th. Even my "Imperial Guard" army includes a Mechanicus detachment, and the fact that my Sororitas army doesn't include any other detachment is actively weakening it.

My CSMs took a beating from an all-Paladin army recently. Feels like rumors about the state of their nerfedness have been greatly exaggerated.

That said, I do not understand why Custodes and Grey Knights. What is the difference supposed to be besides armor color?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"Standalone army" seems like a naff term in 8th edition. It's 5th edition leaking into 8th. Even my "Imperial Guard" army includes a Mechanicus detachment, and the fact that my Sororitas army doesn't include any other detachment is actively weakening it.

It's a pretty valid term for non Tyranid/Eldar Xenos, but overall I agree with this.

As for how Grey Knights should feel about Custodes? Honestly, its a pretty minor transgression compared to the Codex.... the Smite nerf.... and then Daemons randomly getting a rule that makes Grey Knights a liability vs the only niche they could claim. If anything, Custodes feel like they could be a beacon of hope that maybe GW has leaned how to fix GKs.... and will likely choose not to.

For now it's a valid term for non-Tyranid/Eldar xenos.

But that only leaves:
Orks
Necrons
Tau

I full expect at some point in the next few years to see a "Kroot Mercenaries" or "Tau Auxiliaries" book, and an Ork book allowing them to be taken with other forces (iirc the Orks often work as mercenaries. In fact I think there's an entire Clan that does mercenary work... the Blood Axes?).

Leaving only the Necrons, who may very well end up befriending the Mechanicus or something at some point during the storyline. I think there's even an "Assault on Mars" box set coming which may very well be the first toe into the pool of necron/mechanicus interaction.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I'll be god honest, idk why gk players even attempt to field their army anymore, they have just got drug over the coals constantly.

Best Grey Knights player.

People think it matters. Of course when you're one of 3 GK players at an event who really cares?

How many grey knights players do you think will be at LVO?

What happens if zero show up? lol

I know a couple people taking Grey Knights to the LVO.

But your standard Grey Knight list is:

3-4 GMNDK fully kitted
1 detachment of mortar teams + chaff
1 detachment of #Flexibility. One guy on dakka is bringing Dark Angels for plasma devs, but i think that's a mistake. Devastators are so far out of meta it's funny

In general it's people who know they're going to lose to top-tier lists but they want best faction. I've had people bringing "bottom tier" factions against me to playtest for the LVO.

Back to GK, though.
What really hamstrings GK is:

1. They have terrible psychic powers. They're really bad. Astral Aim is legit, though. In truth a faction like this should have 12+ psychic powers to pick from, and they should have some of them that can target <ADEPTUS ASTARTES> Keyword. Gate of Infinity would be super valuable if it could be cast on something other than Grey Knights.

2. They are simply overcosted. Over 50 points for a paladin? 46 points for a terminator? One paladin costs almost as much as a squad of dark reapers.

3. Their ability to get into melee is almost nonexistent. There's a reason the GMNDK is popular, and it's not because he's a melee juggernaut, it's because he's a mobile gunplatform with a high BS who brings his own rerolls, and is relatively survivable (T6, 4++). Similar reasons are why the dakka-flyrant is the best unit in the tyranid codex.

Dont' get me wrong, I think that's the right way forward; just not true for those three right now.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"Standalone army" seems like a naff term in 8th edition. It's 5th edition leaking into 8th. Even my "Imperial Guard" army includes a Mechanicus detachment, and the fact that my Sororitas army doesn't include any other detachment is actively weakening it.

It's a pretty valid term for non Tyranid/Eldar Xenos, but overall I agree with this.

As for how Grey Knights should feel about Custodes? Honestly, its a pretty minor transgression compared to the Codex.... the Smite nerf.... and then Daemons randomly getting a rule that makes Grey Knights a liability vs the only niche they could claim. If anything, Custodes feel like they could be a beacon of hope that maybe GW has leaned how to fix GKs.... and will likely choose not to.

what deamon rule makes GKs a liability?

BrianDavion wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"Standalone army" seems like a naff term in 8th edition. It's 5th edition leaking into 8th. Even my "Imperial Guard" army includes a Mechanicus detachment, and the fact that my Sororitas army doesn't include any other detachment is actively weakening it.

It's a pretty valid term for non Tyranid/Eldar Xenos, but overall I agree with this.

As for how Grey Knights should feel about Custodes? Honestly, its a pretty minor transgression compared to the Codex.... the Smite nerf.... and then Daemons randomly getting a rule that makes Grey Knights a liability vs the only niche they could claim. If anything, Custodes feel like they could be a beacon of hope that maybe GW has leaned how to fix GKs.... and will likely choose not to.

what deamon rule makes GKs a liability?

There is a stratagem that allows Daemons to come back if they're killed by Grey Knights, or some such nonsense.

 Marmatag wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"Standalone army" seems like a naff term in 8th edition. It's 5th edition leaking into 8th. Even my "Imperial Guard" army includes a Mechanicus detachment, and the fact that my Sororitas army doesn't include any other detachment is actively weakening it.

It's a pretty valid term for non Tyranid/Eldar Xenos, but overall I agree with this.

As for how Grey Knights should feel about Custodes? Honestly, its a pretty minor transgression compared to the Codex.... the Smite nerf.... and then Daemons randomly getting a rule that makes Grey Knights a liability vs the only niche they could claim. If anything, Custodes feel like they could be a beacon of hope that maybe GW has leaned how to fix GKs.... and will likely choose not to.

what deamon rule makes GKs a liability?

There is a stratagem that allows Daemons to come back if they're killed by Grey Knights, or some such nonsense.

that'd be fine and dandy if GKs where like 5th edition GKs and utterly OP against deamons. but they're not.

GK should drop all in game bonuses vs Daemons, keep that to the fluff.
Make them a proper psychic elite loyalist space marine army (So, Imperium's Thousand Sons), and then they could work and be balanced both agaisn't daemons and everything else.

To answer the OP: we’re not as salty as we could be about the Custodes codex yet because we’re still salty at Reece for being completely ignorant about how our army works.

As far as the “Daemonhunters” fans are concerned, no GK player wanted inquisition out of our codex, and you would be hard-pressed to find one who wouldn’t want it back in. Inquisition rounded out our army and gave it a unique flavor; the only reason you don’t see much of it anymore is a reluctance to use extra books and the inquisition in current form doesn’t synergize as well with us anymore in the rules. I personally would love to see a return of “Codex Daemonhunters”, with grey knights, assasins, and storm troopers; so we’re not just silver space marines.
PS: those storm troopers were metal in 3rd edition too

I really want a proper Inquisition keyword and Codex with access to DW, GK and Sisters along with the actual Inquisition stuff. That is probably the most heartbreaking thing about the GK codex being released, personally.

I miss Henchmen the most. Back in 3e they were a wildly versatile squad that could be built to do most anything you needed them to (sort of like Deathwatch Veterans today, but without being about 5pts/model too expensive and with a set of interesting role-expanding special rules), nowadays they're a squad of flak-armoured Guard Sergeants who are at least 3pts/model too expensive and have a bunch of kit that's way too expensive to waste on models with that statline, and are mostly taken to give an 8pt Elites choice to detachment min/maxxers.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"Standalone army" seems like a naff term in 8th edition. It's 5th edition leaking into 8th. Even my "Imperial Guard" army includes a Mechanicus detachment, and the fact that my Sororitas army doesn't include any other detachment is actively weakening it.

It's a pretty valid term for non Tyranid/Eldar Xenos, but overall I agree with this.

As for how Grey Knights should feel about Custodes? Honestly, its a pretty minor transgression compared to the Codex.... the Smite nerf.... and then Daemons randomly getting a rule that makes Grey Knights a liability vs the only niche they could claim. If anything, Custodes feel like they could be a beacon of hope that maybe GW has leaned how to fix GKs.... and will likely choose not to.

what deamon rule makes GKs a liability?

There is a stratagem that allows Daemons to come back if they're killed by Grey Knights, or some such nonsense.

that'd be fine and dandy if GKs where like 5th edition GKs and utterly OP against deamons. but they're not.

GK get to reroll all failed wounds against daemons in the fights phase and maximize smites. As a Daemon player, it isn't a cakewalk going against Grey Knights.

The Chaos Daemon stratagem is 2CP to return a non named character daemon unit. You could cheese it by having a non GK unit finish off the daemon unit.

I have found that in a non competitive setting my GK do incredibly well. To the point that I have yet to a lose a game with them.

That is playing a Paladin force with something like a Doomglaive, Knight Errant or Sicaran Venator to deal with armor. Maybe it's just the way I play or maybe my gaming group sucks. Either way I have routinely beaten AM, Chaos and Orks or different varieties.

That being said I do agree there are some things that have been mentioned that irk me some. I think the biggest thing is GK are touted as the best of the best space marines yet have things like LD 8 and 1 attack.

Either way I think they GK look great and I think the Custodes look great as well. I will likely be starting a small force of terminators to put with my GK.

ntin wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"Standalone army" seems like a naff term in 8th edition. It's 5th edition leaking into 8th. Even my "Imperial Guard" army includes a Mechanicus detachment, and the fact that my Sororitas army doesn't include any other detachment is actively weakening it.

It's a pretty valid term for non Tyranid/Eldar Xenos, but overall I agree with this.

As for how Grey Knights should feel about Custodes? Honestly, its a pretty minor transgression compared to the Codex.... the Smite nerf.... and then Daemons randomly getting a rule that makes Grey Knights a liability vs the only niche they could claim. If anything, Custodes feel like they could be a beacon of hope that maybe GW has leaned how to fix GKs.... and will likely choose not to.

what deamon rule makes GKs a liability?

There is a stratagem that allows Daemons to come back if they're killed by Grey Knights, or some such nonsense.

that'd be fine and dandy if GKs where like 5th edition GKs and utterly OP against deamons. but they're not.

GK get to reroll all failed wounds against daemons in the fights phase and maximize smites. As a Daemon player, it isn't a cakewalk going against Grey Knights.

The Chaos Daemon stratagem is 2CP to return a non named character daemon unit. You could cheese it by having a non GK unit finish off the daemon unit.

Huh, good to know that grey Knights are trash vs demons now. Might as well write a rule that reads “you win vs grey Knights”

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The problem with Grey Knights is they are supposed to only fight Daemons, which means their rules have to affect daemons. These rules can't be free (That would be unfair to the Daemon Player) so the GK have to pay points for rules that would be useless 99% of the time.

The problem with Dakkadakka posters is they think lore is accurately represented on tabletop, which means their rules are bunk. These rules can be free (Chapter Tactics, Hive Fleet, Craftworld).

People harp on about lore accuracy all the time and its BS. Grey Knights are literally SM+1 that isn't represented on tabletop at all, neither is the anti-daemon gak. So guess what? THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE AN ANTI-DAEMON ARMY ON TT.

Ffs

 Quickjager wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The problem with Grey Knights is they are supposed to only fight Daemons, which means their rules have to affect daemons. These rules can't be free (That would be unfair to the Daemon Player) so the GK have to pay points for rules that would be useless 99% of the time.

The problem with Dakkadakka posters is they think lore is accurately represented on tabletop, which means their rules are bunk. These rules can be free (Chapter Tactics, Hive Fleet, Craftworld).

People harp on about lore accuracy all the time and its BS. Grey Knights are literally SM+1 that isn't represented on tabletop at all, neither is the anti-daemon gak. So guess what? THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE AN ANTI-DAEMON ARMY ON TT.

Ffs

It's like people almost forgot that HUGE section in the 4th edition codex that listed out reasons Grey Knights fight other armies. And there was a good number of reasons too...

I'm virtually certain that was the 3rd edition codex. I'm not aware of any codex from 4th ed that included GK.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The problem with Grey Knights is they are supposed to only fight Daemons, which means their rules have to affect daemons. These rules can't be free (That would be unfair to the Daemon Player) so the GK have to pay points for rules that would be useless 99% of the time.

Not necessarily if you make the rule something small like reroll 1's to hit or wound in a faction dripping with that kind of stuff in the form of captains and lieutenants it could be not to the point of adding to the cost kinda like death to the false emperor is for CSM. Also demons all ready get a hard counter to their "counter" this edition.

Im not a GK player, but i feel sorry for you, not b.c of Custodes, but b.c your Codex is trash.

I'm as salty as Lot's wife, the Allarus Custodes, Wardens and Venerable Landraider are just to many points, We didn't get enough viable Stratagems or Relics and we have to wait for Forge World to give us the rules for the rest of our army.

by viable stratigiums do you mean "obviously broken ones"?

 daedalus wrote:
I'm virtually certain that was the 3rd edition codex. I'm not aware of any codex from 4th ed that included GK.

Sorry I meant 3rd. 4th is when I started and i had a mildly sizable Grey Knight army.

Why do people keep speaking about GK as SM+1 ? I have never saw that except in some forum, it is not written like that in my 4th ed codex, they are just psy/anti daemons marines (has this thing changed ?)

Fluff-wise they were supposed to have a superior gene seed hand picked by the emperor himself (take that however you like). They were supposed to be given the best equipment and trained be better than normal marines. Thew were not psykers per se but rather resistant to the influence of chaos and able to stand toe-to-toe with daemons on any battleground.

Why do you need a superior gene seed, when you can just use a bigger gun, lol?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm still not sure what people mean when they say "standalone army" anymore.

Inquisition had a codex in 6th and 7th and has a faction and army list in 8th, but I would never call them standalone.

"Imperial Agents" was a codex in 7th and was also not a standalone army.

"Standalone army" seems like a naff term in 8th edition. It's 5th edition leaking into 8th. Even my "Imperial Guard" army includes a Mechanicus detachment, and the fact that my Sororitas army doesn't include any other detachment is actively weakening it.

I know that this is a bit off-track but codices in 7e didn’t have the same connotation as codices in other editions, partially because GW decided to push out as many as possible as a cash grab and partially because the ally system meant that half factions were a thing. Remember when Scions/MT got a codex with like 4 units in it? Remember when AdMech got split into two codices? Remember when Imperial Agents wasn’t a codex for a faction, per se, but for about 10 different mini-factions, some with only one or two units? “Having a codex in 7e” isn’t a good precedent for being a full army.

Anyway back on track it does seem like the GK codex was low-effort and the Custodes got some time out into them making them usable. Maybe it’s because GK were translated from previous rules using a defective formula and the new Custodes stuff had to have rules written from scratch?

BrianDavion wrote:
by viable stratigiums do you mean "obviously broken ones"?

No we mean “better than rerolling a dice” ones

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Im not a GK player, but i feel sorry for you, not b.c of Custodes, but b.c your Codex is trash.

ty. Our codex is trash, and Custodes are just a kick in the face of what the Grey Knights were supposed to be. That highly elite army. I may try out my grey knights as Custodes for a bit just to see how much different they play on table top.

Custodes are what I would have loved to see for my paladins. They are 3 points cheaper than paladins with +1 bs, +1 ws, +1 str, +1 tough with close combat weapon that is +1str ap -3 vs the paladins +1 str ap -2. their gun is only rapid fire 1, but has Ap-1 to make up for it (I call this a wash with their bs 2+)... and they have access to storm shields. . . . AND THEY ARE TROOPS!

Paladins have over Custodian guard... psyker. Which in an army that is full of psykers has a hard diminishing return. Also, GW over values psykers in our codex. Honestly to have the paladin's price tag, they need to have the stat line of a custodian, the weapons of the paladins that equal to a custodian, and still be psyker.

WOW.. they are that much better for cheaper? WTF?!?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
WOW.. they are that much better for cheaper? WTF?!?

I agree. It makes no sense that gold armour is cheaper than silver armour.

To play devils advocate, GK Paladins are much more resilient to psychic mortal wound spamming than Custodes. Custodes really can't rely on the 6 FnP to psychic powers ability they have as much as GK can rely on Deny the Witch, which also helps prevent other potentially devastating psychic powers (3++ rerollable invuls?). I don't know what the point cost for that would be, but it's at least a... silver... lining? Also, comparing Paladins to standard Custodes Guardians, the Paladins get Deep Strike included as well. Between the psychic capabilities and DS, there is a noticeable difference. Is it worth the pricing between the two? I don't know.

With the psychic changes to smite spam.

That plus is actually useless.

 Galas wrote:
GK should drop all in game bonuses vs Daemons, keep that to the fluff.

This. I've been saying this for a while now and you're the first one to agree.

Make some Narrative Play -rules for daemon hunting, let me hunt everything with my shiny, mind-bullet shooting, sword swinging marines.

I'm new to playing grey knights but I gotta say having a blob with 3 paladins an apothacarey, a paladin ancient with the relic banner and a Brother captain, is a really strong alpha strike.

I'm still super confused why strike teams don't have 2 attacks base. Aren't grey knights veterans taken from other chapters?

Also if custodes are cheaper than paladins then I don't see how they can justify their price point

 fraser1191 wrote:

I'm still super confused why strike teams don't have 2 attacks base. Aren't grey knights veterans taken from other chapters?

That's Deathwatch. Grey Knights are their own Chapter.

Grey Knights don't take people from other SM chapters. So the Vets are GK vets.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

I'm still super confused why strike teams don't have 2 attacks base. Aren't grey knights veterans taken from other chapters?

That's Deathwatch. Grey Knights are their own Chapter.

Ah well there it is

 Quickjager wrote:
With the psychic changes to smite spam.

That plus is actually useless.

The plus I said had nothing to do with Smite and more with psychic defense. With baby Smite, Paladins shouldn't be Smiting much, if at all. They should be using powers like Hammer Hand or Gate.

It has everything to do with Smite, as less smite is going to be going out, so there is less value.Which means the only faction who is even vaguely threatening in the psychic phase is Thousands Sons.

Don't you DARE even get me or any other GK player started on how dumb the rule of one for psychic powers is.

 Fueli wrote:

 Galas wrote:
GK should drop all in game bonuses vs Daemons, keep that to the fluff.

This. I've been saying this for a while now and you're the first one to agree.

Make some Narrative Play -rules for daemon hunting, let me hunt everything with my shiny, mind-bullet shooting, sword swinging marines.

Honestly, re-rolling to wound to demons is nice, but that could be accomplished if we had a lieutenant type buff, like every other chapter has...or if our chaplins gave that buff... or our brother captains. Etc.
Honestly, my favorite anti-demon buff is our psyker. I can very much so shut down a psychic phase. That is nice. But if Grey Knights had a chapter tactic, it is the fact that we are all psykers.

To continue the trend of OMG custodes put grey knights to shame...

Lets compare HQs
Shield Captain vs Grey Knight Grand Master
Shield captain (in terminator armor) is 20 points cheaper than a Grand master, +1 wounds, +1 str, +1T, +1" move, and his rerolls to 1 within 6 inches is for more effective when your entire codex hits on a 2+.
Psyker vs Aegis of the Emperor

Shield Captain on a jet bike is still 2 points cheaper than a grand master - it has that baller reroll failed wound on charge weapon (coupled with reroll 1s to hit), +2T, +1W, +1 str, and +9" movement and a rapid fire 6 bolter vs a rapid fire 2 one. Loses deep strike. Psyker vs Aegis.

That Vexillus Praetor vs Paladin Ancient
this is a different comparison. Praetor has a few different options. To do what the ancient does costs the same (12 points more than a brother ancient). ok besides the stat boosts addressed earlier, that almost made it better except, they can take an upgrade for... less... points... (making them 20 points cheaper) to give a -1 to hit aura. This helps to offset the major Elite infantry army draw back... losing bodies. I would love to have that on my GK. and its cheaper? I would actually take a brother/paladin ancient with that!

Ugh, so much salt for what they got for cheaper.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
It has everything to do with Smite, as less smite is going to be going out, so there is less value.Which means the only faction who is even vaguely threatening in the psychic phase is Thousands Sons.

Don't you DARE even get me or any other GK player started on how dumb the rule of one for psychic powers is.

Oh you got me started! 2x hammer hand a turn is just SOOOO op. lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hoodwink wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
With the psychic changes to smite spam.

That plus is actually useless.

The plus I said had nothing to do with Smite and more with psychic defense. With baby Smite, Paladins shouldn't be Smiting much, if at all. They should be using powers like Hammer Hand or Gate.

I agree, but the Rule of One really limits it. Now I have to pick n choose who uses hammerhand. And if another unit has hammerhand, guess what... now they are casting the diminishing returns baby smite. Its a nerf to a codex that did not need a nerf.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:


I'm still super confused why strike teams don't have 2 attacks base. Aren't grey knights veterans taken from other chapters?

Besides the wrong codex reference... there is still much debate as to why our purifiers (not the strike teams) don't have 2 attacks base. Them only having 1 attack essentially nerfed (last edition they had 2) the unit to a point where they cannot be used. Which is sad, I really like purifiers. Their 3" smite is a pain to use tho.

I think it was a major overcorrection mostly based on the Psychic Phase, but they were one of the first Codexes to test the waters (Psychic Spell focus I mean). Unfortunately being an Elite Army their point costs were already set to the higher side, and adding easier access to various spells probably made them harder to tune.

Personally I think the Daemon Focus should not be used to set costs, and I believe it is a nice bit of fluff added into the army. I would like to see more of these interactions across the board. In the grand scheme of things there are much less Daemon and Grey Knight players overall, so it is rare that anything is actually gained anyway.

Custodes sure do look nice, but I don't see them being a super overpowered force.

vyse.04 wrote:
I think it was a major overcorrection mostly based on the Psychic Phase, but they were one of the first Codexes to test the waters (Psychic Spell focus I mean). Unfortunately being an Elite Army their point costs were already set to the higher side, and adding easier access to various spells probably made them harder to tune.

Personally I think the Daemon Focus should not be used to set costs, and I believe it is a nice bit of fluff added into the army. I would like to see more of these interactions across the board. In the grand scheme of things there are much less Daemon and Grey Knight players overall, so it is rare that anything is actually gained anyway.

Custodes sure do look nice, but I don't see them being a super overpowered force.

No, they wont be over powered... they will suffer from the same issues Grey knights do. They will just do a better job at it. There are things that the grey knights do have over the custodes. Just really would like to see a price adjustment.

And reroll wounds in close combat vs demons is nice, 3 wound smite is great. Just don't like paying for those rules when I am fighting necrons, tau, etc.. I agree, just call psyker + reroll wounds v demons in CC our chapter tactic. Bloodangels and Ravenguard still have a stronger chapter tactic.

Not to mention, Demon players can just resurrect units grey knights kill now. Demon complaints should be offset by that alone.

its pretty heartning to hear other players habe the exact same problems and gripes that i do. nothing agasint AC, but for real grey knigths eiyher need a huge amount of buffs, or tons of point reductions.

i just want a small force of super paladins, but we are weaker than custodes, and way worse at casting powers than pretty much everyone , TS, eldar.

if anyone is interested i did write ups ome home brew rules to make grey knights suck less. so if you guys want your knights of titan to be really fun to play in a freindly game these are perfect, if you want them let me knoiw and ill post them.

at the end of the day what grey knights NEED is an 8.5 codex

BrianDavion wrote:
at the end of the day what grey knights NEED is an 8.5 codex

/thread

The concept that GW has thought up for psyker-heavy armies at the start of the edition obviously didn't work. If TS works better (which is basically working like Eldar), GW needs to apply that concept to Grey Knights as well, in a new codex.

For my GK I thought the last straw was the change to Smite. Gk at the very least should have exemption from this, however the real last straw is the stratagem in the Daemons dex that allows them to bring back a daemon unit killed by a GK unit.

The existence of this strat in daemons dex does imply that GK are here to stay at least.

As the butt of a joke. One daemon to another- Doesn't it just kill you to fight Grey Knights? Yes, but then I get better.

BrianDavion wrote:
at the end of the day what grey knights NEED is an 8.5 codex

Agreed. At this point, too much needs to be reworked for chapter approved/errata to be the solution.

 Quickjager wrote:
It has everything to do with Smite, as less smite is going to be going out, so there is less value.Which means the only faction who is even vaguely threatening in the psychic phase is Thousands Sons.

Don't you DARE even get me or any other GK player started on how dumb the rule of one for psychic powers is.

Necessary after the dumpster fire of 7th.

GK main purpose is to fight daemons and that they do that rather well now, right?

 Primark G wrote:
GK main purpose is to fight daemons and that they do that rather well now, right?

They kill daemons fine, but daemons can now resurrect themselves when killed by Grey Knights for CP. Not super great.

That is very fluffy for daemons though so it makes sense to me.

 Primark G wrote:
That is very fluffy for daemons though so it makes sense to me.

how is "Can ressurect themselves when killed by dedicated demon slayers who specificly know how to banish demons" fluffy?

the strat is a throw back to a set of rules that allow deamons some power quirks when fighting a GK army, problem is GKs are only moderately effective against them now if GKs where as good vs deamons at they where in say 5th edition, where they had a TON of special anti demon rules... then sure, now? now that start is kinda insulting

Daemons are warp spawn and that is pure chaos - literally anything can happen and does. GK can do the d3 MW Smite to Daemons now and that is really good for them too.

Actually, the daemon rule is fluffed as the fact that the Grey Knights only deploy to face the largest and most dangerous of daemonic incursions. So to represent such a large and especially dangerous incursion, the daemons get more units.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Actually, the daemon rule is fluffed as the fact that the Grey Knights only deploy to face the largest and most dangerous of daemonic incursions. So to represent such a large and especially dangerous incursion, the daemons get more units.

yeah which would be fine if GKs had the kinda special rules to really make them worth while vs Deamons. as I said the 5th edition GK codex gave them a TON of anti-deamon rules (to the point where they had a blatently unfair advantage) GKs don't have any anti-deamon stratigiums. pretty much the only thing they have is "yeah your smite actually works against deamons."

Most GK units could do with a noticeable points drop. Adding to that, points drops for most weapons (except flacions, as those are by far the best option).

I'd say drop points by 2 or 3 points for most power armor units, 8 for GK terminators, 7 for Paladins, 10 for any HQ other than the GMDK, 10 for the dreadknight, 1 for all melee weapons other than the flacions, and a 20% drop for heavy weapons.

On top of that, let the HQ's use full smite.

Most people are forgetting 1 thing

Nearly EVERYTHING in the GK Codex is Psychic

Squads doing a Triple tap of Purge Soul, Stormbolters and Power Weapons in Melee is NASTY

Granted, Purge Soul isnt as Effective vs Imperium armies+Necrons, but you just take a different power instead (I.E Gate of Infinity)

 cuda1179 wrote:
...he dreadknight, 1 for all melee weapons other than the flacions, and a 20% drop for heavy weapons.

The only melee weapon that costs anything is the hammer.

 Smotejob wrote:
Any other grey knights players salty about the Custodes rules? There stuff is most comparable to our paladins, to which the Custodes are more powerful for cheaper.

Not at all.
GK are anti-daemon psykers
AC are the Emperors personal guard

Gameplay-wise I think they're about as close as Black Templars are to Grey Knights.

 commander dante wrote:
Most people are forgetting 1 thing

Nearly EVERYTHING in the GK Codex is Psychic

Squads doing a Triple tap of Purge Soul, Stormbolters and Power Weapons in Melee is NASTY

Granted, Purge Soul isnt as Effective vs Imperium armies+Necrons, but you just take a different power instead (I.E Gate of Infinity)

Except you can only cast each of their very limited selection of powers once. Which boils down their HQs using the real powers and the squad being left with only being able to baby smite. It’s really not that much of a bonus (1 mortal wound) when it comes down to it in the game.

 Primark G wrote:
That is very fluffy for daemons though so it makes sense to me.

Okay yes everybody loves fluffy additions to the game, as long as they are done right. A tide of demons coming forth from the warp is pretty cool, but its really a double edged sword seeing as how you can only use it against gery knights as opposed to Eldar or thousand sons who can also pump out Mortal wounds at almost the same rate.

Just like eldar grey knights have a rule that sees almost no use, ancient doom is even more niche than deamon hunters, how often does a Slannesh deamon player face a Eldar player?

From what I can see is GK are too fluffy for their own good.

GK are back to where they were before Ward. It’s a thing now.

Why are you so toxic?

 Primark G wrote:
GK are back to where they were before Ward. It’s a thing now.

pre-ward they had access to inqustion troops to pad out their rosters

I apologize as coming across as toxic. I played Grey Knights prior to 5th edition and I played them twice at major events back then. What I don’t like is the negativity towards Custodians in the OP. I honestly think GK are still valid as a component but not as an entire army. Just look at how good Soup lists are doing in general. If you really love GK I think there are some good options.

 Primark G wrote:
I apologize as coming across as toxic. I played Grey Knights prior to 5th edition and I played them twice at major events back then. What I don’t like is the negativity towards Custodians in the OP. I honestly think GK are still valid as a component but not as an entire army. Just look at how good Soup lists are doing in general. If you really love GK I think there are some good options.

I started in 4th and they were my second army. Your anecdote of your history really doesn't work here.

Why do you say that?

I brought this up in another thread, but I feel like the Grey Knights are bogged down by a few things:

1. Being Space Marines: Excluding Primaris (whom I'm sure will make a debut in the Grey Knights army eventually), the Grey Knights suffer from being MEQ and taking that baggage everywhere they go. Hence why they have 1 attack base and why they don't really have the statline that feels "elite" when compared to regular Marines.

2. Being forced to double up on shooting and melee: When a unit has to take both shooting and melee options it pulls them too many directions and honestly makes them worse at both. If they didn't need to carry shooting options along with melee ones (in the case of Terminators) or need to load up a shooting based squad with melee weapons you don't need (PAGK for example) they'd be more point efficient and more capable of being set up for specific jobs effectively. Basically specialization is what helps a unit feel more elite (example: Custodes are melee focused with small amounts of shooting to support them on the way in, or we have assault terminators who don't pay for shooting they don't need or use). When you have to take both (example: regular terminators) the unit feels bloated and you often try to find ways to shave points off stuff you don't want or need in the unit so you can focus more on the things you actually want to do with the unit.

3. Points spent on special rules: While being psykers will always make them more expensive than you'd like, the anti-daemon rules are going to cause a points increase on everything. Considering most armies don't even pay for traits anymore, this shouldn't apply to Grey Knights, but from what we can tell it looks like it does anyways.

4. Lack of a chaffe option: Be it a scout unit or Inquisitorial Alcolytes, people seem to be very hung up on the lack of a cheap troop choice that can help fill out the army. While I don't feel every army should have a chaffe option built in, I can understand the appeal of wanting to min-max an army for CP, or just try to get past the stuff you don't care about as cheaply as possible so you can focus on the big toys you really want. Not my way of building an army, but I can understand the desire.

5. Lack of new options: Primaris are going into every Marine army it seems, except the Grey Knights who could really use them. Guess you can ally them in as Exorcists chapter Primaris, but as it stand the lack of new toys isn't helping the Grey Knights any.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Actually, the daemon rule is fluffed as the fact that the Grey Knights only deploy to face the largest and most dangerous of daemonic incursions. So to represent such a large and especially dangerous incursion, the daemons get more units.

Pretty sure its a throwback to a Daemonhunters mission that gave a Daemons player free replacement units in something that was like Meatgrinder.

I expect Grey Knights to get primaris at a later date because it would most likely be a new kit.
They aren't gonna let all those force weapons just sit there and there will probably a wrist mounted bolt rifle variant to keep up with tradition

 Primark G wrote:
Why do you say that?

You claim veteran status as though it mattered for you defending the army's current state. It's a toxic attitude whether you like it or not.

I was just proving you can't throw out the whole "I've been playing since ______" and expect anything to stick in a meaningful way.

I'd laugh if they made a GK version of Inceptors with two psylancers. Or what about HellBlasters with a larger version of a psycannon?

 Primark G wrote:
GK main purpose is to fight daemons and that they do that rather well now, right?

They re-roll wounds in the fight phase, and their 12” smite does 3 mortal wounds instead of one.
Daemons have access to normal smite, powers that can strip their invul saves, and CC units that will shred GK for cheap. And none of GK’s bonuses extend to CSM, just daemons. They aren’t good at fighting daemons...AM is better against daemons though sheer weight of fire.

Going to sound weird here, but I almost think giving more attacks to GK is too much. Maybe a special rule that lets them gain an attack on the charge? That is what made them work reliably in the past.

Definitely need points drops army wide and normal smite on characters. Those two are basically non negotiable.

Grey Knights (in theory) should be fighting Daemons through quality rather than the quantity of a horde (though Hive Fleet Kronos doubles down and uses hordes with anti-psyker traits to make Daemons extra sad so there is that).

As I've said, part of the problem is the lack of specialization. Nearly every squad has to gear up for melee and range and does neither especially well. PAGK especially should be loading up on anti-daemon/psyker (you know, to stop daemon summoning/spawning rogue psykers) shooting with weapons designed to break Daemon Engines while a unit like Purifiers could easily be a close combat oriented unit designed to form a wall of blades to protect PAGK from the charging hordes.

Likewise the Terminators should be coming in both choppy and shooty variants instead of having the only option being on that does both (this is why vanilla Terminators are considered worse than assault terminators after all: they lack focus meaning you spend points on stuff you don't want or need in the unit).

With that we would see an army that could built more appropiately into a short range army that plays more like a Psychic Sisters army (short range shooting in power armour backed by melee specialist units) than worse Marines.

And honestly they probably should be 2 attacks base (or 1 attack base and +1 attack for using their Nemesis Force Weapons) to make them feel more "elite" when compared to regular Marines.

That and giving them access to more psychic powers (say, the Vanilla Marine powers for instance) for diversity's sake could be good too. That or give them multiple disciplines Chaos Daemons style with different units having access to different ones.

I think this boils down to power armoured units across the board being lack luster.
Frankly I think marines should have an extra wound for starters. Maybe an extra attack.
My reasoning is pretty simple marines are really easy to kill. When I finish a game I generally only have a hand full remaining. Even Paladins get shot off easily in some cases

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Why do you say that?

You claim veteran status as though it mattered for you defending the army's current state. It's a toxic attitude whether you like it or not.

I was just proving you can't throw out the whole "I've been playing since ______" and expect anything to stick in a meaningful way.

That is just opinion.

Here is something else to think about too you don’t see any SW players moaning about how good are Custodes. And here is the thing there is a direct corillary.

 Primark G wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Why do you say that?

You claim veteran status as though it mattered for you defending the army's current state. It's a toxic attitude whether you like it or not.

I was just proving you can't throw out the whole "I've been playing since ______" and expect anything to stick in a meaningful way.

That is just opinion.

Here is something else to think about too you don’t see any SW players moaning about how good are Custodes. And here is the thing there is a direct corillary.

Space Wolves have little parallels to Custodes and also haven't had a codex made yet. You seemed to have forgotten that real quick.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think this boils down to power armoured units across the board being lack luster.
Frankly I think marines should have an extra wound for starters. Maybe an extra attack.
My reasoning is pretty simple marines are really easy to kill. When I finish a game I generally only have a hand full remaining. Even Paladins get shot off easily in some cases

I can't say I've played a lot of games, or watched a lot of battle reports, but from what I can tell, in most games there usually isn't much left of either army when all is said and done.

I can support buffing Grey Knight attacks, but not regular Marines (gotta make them feel elite somehow after all), and extra wounds really should stay on Primaris marines alone (if we buff vanilla Marines then both Primaris and Custodes would need a buff and we don't need 3 Custodes rocking 12 wounds total).

If anything should be done is baking in re-roll 1s standard to hit rolls with captains unlocking rerolling all hits (or perhaps giving a +1 to hit instead). Marines should feel like the most reliable faction to go with them being on the lower model counts compared to other armies.

No the point is SW used to be very competitive in fifth edition like GK.

Gk definitely are a low-tier army. I collected a lot them, I converted 95% of my army. I feel let down.

I'm not saying we need a top-tier tourney busting broken list. But when I see seasoned veteran players struggling against a young newb with an army made up entirely of Starter Set marines plus whatever he found in the second-hand box, you know there is a problem.


Hypothetically, if GK kept their rules 100% as they are, how many points would they actually need to be to make them a viable, but pretty average, army? I'd have to say 18 points per model for a strike squad including their storm bolter.

 Primark G wrote:
No the point is SW used to be very competitive in fifth edition like GK.

Honesty I have to wonder if even the Emperor of Mankind himself could fathom the points you're trying to make.

Space Woves don't currenly have a codex and barely have any special rules right now. Naturally this means they're going to be fairly lackluster on the table. The only army doing reasonably well despite lacking a codex right now is Sisters and that's mostly due to finally having an appropriate points cost on an army of power armoured glass cannons.

Grey Knights suffer currently from a lot of problems and pointing at an army that has yet to see an update and telling people they're basically the same thing is nonsense. That is unless you're trying to say the Grey Knight update is just as much as a proper codex as the Space Wolves entries in the index, in which case I can probably agree.

You don’t understand my point. GK and SW were both top tier in fifth edition.

And you're ignoring mine: the only thing that we can say about current Space Wolves is that we don't have all their rules yet so it's too soon to say they're as bad off as Grey Knights.

Saying a codex is as bad off as an index army speaks more about the problems of the codex over the problems of the index army that is still waiting for an update.

You don’t even seem to understand my point which has nothing to do with codex versus index.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Gk definitely are a low-tier army. I collected a lot them, I converted 95% of my army. I feel let down.

I'm not saying we need a top-tier tourney busting broken list. But when I see seasoned veteran players struggling against a young newb with an army made up entirely of Starter Set marines plus whatever he found in the second-hand box, you know there is a problem.


Hypothetically, if GK kept their rules 100% as they are, how many points would they actually need to be to make them a viable, but pretty average, army? I'd have to say 18 points per model for a strike squad including their storm bolter.

Too many points, SM players would (just like last edition) point at the force weapons and go, we get a bolter at 13ppm (are bolters 1 point in addition?) why should you get a psychic powers, a better power sword, and a stormbolter for only 4 more points than us! This of course ignoring that Tactical Squads suck, but you know double standards.

To actually make GK different and worth the points, they need stat increases that COMPLEMENT their loadout, they need to differentiated not cheaper. Universal WS2+, Paladins get BS2+ AND an additional wound, all HQs need to drop 20 points in price EXCEPT GMDK, Chaplains need to be re-roll of 1's to WOUND not hit, all HQs get full-smite, Brother-Captain instead of doubling smite range can use the psychic power of GK within 6 inches to increase his stats, make Libbies the ones who double smite range and make it so they can double dip past the rule of 1, make GK techmarines useful by making it so if they are present all AP weapons are treated as 1 less, make Crowe 5 points because he still wouldn't be worth taking at that point cost.

Stuff like this could make GK work perfectly fine at their point costs.

Why would GK Techmarines give a stupid bonus like that and not regular ones?

The last 2 was me just throwing ridiculous stuff out.

Or do you think Crowe at 5 points is fair? Its free Warlord for the opponent afterall.

As for techmarines, why would anyone take them anymore? They weren't even taken beforehand, not even in vehicle heavy armies because techmarines as a whole are a failure of design in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know maybe that is the balance we needed with Guilliman to begin with, make it so vehicle's require a Techmarine (or equivalent) to access rerolls to hit and wound.

problem with tech marines is keeping up with the vehicles they're assigned to. if it was easier to make/get a bike mounted tech marine they might be more popular

 Quickjager wrote:


To actually make GK different and worth the points, they need stat increases that COMPLEMENT their loadout, they need to differentiated not cheaper. Universal WS2+, Paladins get BS2+ AND an additional wound, all HQs need to drop 20 points in price EXCEPT GMDK, Chaplains need to be re-roll of 1's to WOUND not hit, all HQs get full-smite, Brother-Captain instead of doubling smite range can use the psychic power of GK within 6 inches to increase his stats, make Libbies the ones who double smite range and make it so they can double dip past the rule of 1...

This would make me a lot happier as GK player as at the moment my GK's are going on the shelf.

 Quickjager wrote:
The last 2 was me just throwing ridiculous stuff out.

Or do you think Crowe at 5 points is fair? Its free Warlord for the opponent afterall.

As for techmarines, why would anyone take them anymore? They weren't even taken beforehand, not even in vehicle heavy armies because techmarines as a whole are a failure of design in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know maybe that is the balance we needed with Guilliman to begin with, make it so vehicle's require a Techmarine (or equivalent) to access rerolls to hit and wound.

Crowe needs something on his weapon basically. Even something simple as AP-1 would go a long way as long as he can keep generating attacks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
The last 2 was me just throwing ridiculous stuff out.

Or do you think Crowe at 5 points is fair? Its free Warlord for the opponent afterall.

As for techmarines, why would anyone take them anymore? They weren't even taken beforehand, not even in vehicle heavy armies because techmarines as a whole are a failure of design in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know maybe that is the balance we needed with Guilliman to begin with, make it so vehicle's require a Techmarine (or equivalent) to access rerolls to hit and wound.

Crowe needs something on his weapon basically. Even something simple as AP-1 would go a long way as long as he can keep generating attacks.

Crowe has always been a joke with that weapon. Why can he not keep the blade of antwyr in a sheath and use a nemesis force sword? He would be way better with that 1 change.

I like the proposed changes above. Rework out hqs, our points do need an adjustment. I would keep strike squads where they are... It's the terminators that need to be reworked.

Purgation squad bodies should be cheaper since they can't deep strike (-2pts).

Why are Purifiers 26 points? Strikers or any other model with the same stat line (except -1 Ld) are only 19 points? I can't imagine a 3" smite that does 1d6 damage could be worth almost 50% more than a normal baby smite and the loss of the ability to deep strike as well.

 Primark G wrote:
You don’t understand my point. GK and SW were both top tier in fifth edition.

That doesn’t matter. In an ideal world, EVERY army would have the potential to be top tier. It’s not some rotation where every army gets to be the best for a bit.
Moreover, you’re missing everyone else’s point: that the GK codex isn’t fluffy, let alone competitive. We aren’t asking to be OP, we aren’t asking to be dominating the top tables the way Eldar are. All we want is the same treatment AM, Death Guard, and Custodes got: a codex that reflects the background of the army, and gives us more than one decent option for list building.

Then shouldn’t the title say:

"Any other Grey Knight players salty about the AM, Death Guard, and Custodes (etc.) rules?"

 Primark G wrote:
Then shouldn’t the title say:

"Any other Grey Knight players salty about the AM, Death Guard, and Custodes (etc.) rules?"

While that COULD be true, Custodes basically got anything that Grey Knights needed or even wanted.

 Primark G wrote:
Then shouldn’t the title say:

"Any other Grey Knight players salty about the AM, Death Guard, and Custodes (etc.) rules?"

Custodes are the same kind of army as Greyknights. GK should have similar battlefield performance - just with more psychic focus rather than everyone being an indomitable hero focus. You could probably fix the GK codex by just using the custodes army as a primer and just reducing the similar greyknight units because they are obviously worse and cost more. These are pretty obvious gripes. Your perpetual support for the trash armies was funny for a bit but now I just grow tired of it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Then shouldn’t the title say:

"Any other Grey Knight players salty about the AM, Death Guard, and Custodes (etc.) rules?"

While that COULD be true, Custodes basically got anything that Grey Knights needed or even wanted.

Not the cool Dreadkights

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Then shouldn’t the title say:

"Any other Grey Knight players salty about the AM, Death Guard, and Custodes (etc.) rules?"

While that COULD be true, Custodes basically got anything that Grey Knights needed or even wanted.

Not the cool Dreadkights

They have a pretty mean looking FW contemptor which I am sure once it gets rules will rek a GMDK with relative ease.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Then shouldn’t the title say:

"Any other Grey Knight players salty about the AM, Death Guard, and Custodes (etc.) rules?"

While that COULD be true, Custodes basically got anything that Grey Knights needed or even wanted.

Not the cool Dreadkights

Custodes Dreadnoughts have Storm Shields and Great Swords. : (

SJ

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Then shouldn’t the title say:

"Any other Grey Knight players salty about the AM, Death Guard, and Custodes (etc.) rules?"

While that COULD be true, Custodes basically got anything that Grey Knights needed or even wanted.

So my point is valid.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Then shouldn’t the title say:

"Any other Grey Knight players salty about the AM, Death Guard, and Custodes (etc.) rules?"

While that COULD be true, Custodes basically got anything that Grey Knights needed or even wanted.

Not the cool Dreadkights

Custodes Dreadnoughts have Storm Shields and Great Swords. : (

SJ

If you play 30k.

 Primark G wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Then shouldn’t the title say:

"Any other Grey Knight players salty about the AM, Death Guard, and Custodes (etc.) rules?"

While that COULD be true, Custodes basically got anything that Grey Knights needed or even wanted.

So my point is valid.

No? "Could" and "should" mean different things, and the point of the people complaining about GK is that Custodes have essentially filled their niche, by being able to do everything that GK want to be able to do except actually being effective at it. AM, Death Guard, etc can be good at doing different things without it having anything to do with Grey Knights, and while I'm sure there are plenty of players salty about GK being not very good in general, Custodes being effective at what GK players see as their "schtick" is like pouring salt in the wound.

I don’t agree with Custodes being like GK. They are different in many ways such as GK primary focus on daemons.

 Primark G wrote:
I don’t agree with Custodes being like GK. They are different in many ways such as GK primary focus on daemons.

Do they? Because daemons got a stretgem that allows them to bring back to life a unit killed by a greyknights unit for 2 CP. It seems to me the daemons specialize in killing greyknights.

I meant looks, i said it was cooler hahaha

 Primark G wrote:
I don’t agree with Custodes being like GK. They are different in many ways such as GK primary focus on daemons.

You do not have to agree in order to be incorrect.

They are similar but not exact.

Having read this thread and your responses I have to presume you are simply trolling at this point?

No I’m not. The title says are any GK players upset about the new rules for Custodes. Someone said it’s not about Custodes they just wish in general GK got good rules citing several armies. It has been shown why GK and Custodes are not all that similar according to background. Look at Space Marines - they have several multi wound elite units such as terminators and Centurions both with different flavors. To me Grey Knights are a lot more like Space Marines as opposed to Custodes. Custodes have no single wound units like for example Strike Squads, Purifiers or Purifiers. So I understand that players don’t like their codex but claiming they should be as good as Custodes doesn’t make sense to me.

Here is an outsiders opinion: I have played Orks now for a good enough time to know GW favour factions and codex while leaving other factions out. I mean look at the stompa for the biggest (in more than 1 way) example of gw not even trying! So the idea that gw has created a bunch of new models around a faction, I'm sure many of the 40k devs are hyperventilating over, and also made them a little too good in comparison to another faction who play a similar role (also to sell these new models) is not outside, to me, the realmx of belief.

Other great examples can be seen in the form of razorbacks being cheaper than ork trukks for a while or marine dreadnoughts being cheaper than Ork dreadnoughts. So to me GK sound like they got shafted this edition alongside Deathwatch players. Gw can do elite armies right they just decided to kill them off to make their new elite army look cooler.

My opinion please have mercy on me as a Ork Mech Player.

 Primark G wrote:
No I’m not. The title says are any GK players upset about the new rules for Custodes. Someone said it’s not about Custodes they just wish in general GK got good rules citing several armies. It has been shown why GK and Custodes are not all that similar according to background. Look at Space Marines - they have several multi wound elite units such as terminators and Centurions both with different flavors. To me Grey Knights are a lot more like Space Marines as opposed to Custodes. Custodes have no single wound units like for example Strike Squads, Purifiers or Purifiers. So I understand that players don’t like their codex but claiming they should be as good as Custodes doesn’t make sense to me.

Nobody cares about frickin fluff. You can go to the Background section for that. We are looking strictly at crunch.

Deathwatch haven't gotten a codex yet so they may recover from this unlike the Grey Knights who are back in the queue for their next update sometime after all the codexes are out.

If anyone deserves an 8.5 codex it's GK. At this point any errata or FAQ that would be needed to make them playable would likely be so big it would be hard to navigate.

 Primark G wrote:
No I’m not. The title says are any GK players upset about the new rules for Custodes. Someone said it’s not about Custodes they just wish in general GK got good rules citing several armies. It has been shown why GK and Custodes are not all that similar according to background. Look at Space Marines - they have several multi wound elite units such as terminators and Centurions both with different flavors. To me Grey Knights are a lot more like Space Marines as opposed to Custodes. Custodes have no single wound units like for example Strike Squads, Purifiers or Purifiers. So I understand that players don’t like their codex but claiming they should be as good as Custodes doesn’t make sense to me.

To be fair, there was a time when the GK were entirely a Terminator based chapter, and have long been in the running for the most ultra elite Imperial army, particularly with the advent of Paladins in 5E, but even before that under the Daemonhunters codex, their fluff was always that they were the most ultra elite heavy infantry army out there in concept, regardless of tabletop performance.

That said, yeah, the Custodes should be in a league of their own, the issue is that they do squeeze the GK's out of a spot they traditionally filled because for 30 years the Custodes weren't much more than a rarely used background element that was never intended to see the table.

I think the stratagem pretty balanced.

It costs 2 CP, which is not nothing, and we are speaking of an army able to do 3 mortal wounds per unit on deamons, so quite a big deal. You will have to priorize and be smart on your target choosing in order to avoid the use of this stratagem on big units.

BrianDavion wrote:
at the end of the day what grey knights NEED is an 8.5 codex

This.

The psybolt ammunition stratgem seems pretty powerfull though. I run a single GK terminator unit in my Inquisition list and they rake up quite the scary shooting and close combat. Overall GK need to get stronger but not neccesarily cheaper. They should cost more points wise then a marine but less then a Custodes. I think they would stand to benefit from being mashed togheter with the Inquisition. Give them some cheap Militarum Temptestus variant Troop choice and be done with it.

Would love to see a codex: Inquisition again... But with grey knights, sisters, and the Inquisition. They can share keywords down to Inquisition, and then split off with specific ordo. Or, I would like to see Inquisition develop a rule that allows them to join an army and not mess up their detachment keyword.

As above, psybolts can be good. I like to take a ten man strike squad for that.. 40 str 5 ap-1 shots. If next to a Grand Master they reroll 1. However 2 cp means about one use per battle. Should it be 2? I don't know. I've chewed up some tough units like this.

If you're going to spring for a Grand Master might as well use Draigo instead. Then you get to reroll all misses not just 1s.

 Smotejob wrote:
Would love to see a codex: Inquisition again... But with grey knights, sisters, and the Inquisition.

Do not want.
Sisters don't have anything to do with silver marines and black with silver shoulderpad marines.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
Would love to see a codex: Inquisition again... But with grey knights, sisters, and the Inquisition.

Do not want.
Sisters don't have anything to do with silver marines and black with silver shoulderpad marines.

It's about consolidating Inquisition and the forces they employ into one book. Iron Hands don't interact with Black Templars ya know.

It is pipe dream at best.

 Primark G wrote:
It is pipe dream at best.

Yeah, not happening at this point. You will almost certainly get Imperial Agents 8th Edition, but you won't have Grey Knights, Deathwatch or Sisters in it because GW's 40k website lists them all as separate factions.

pismakron wrote:
Grey Knights has been replaced, just like old marines has been replaced by Primaris Marines. And just like old marines, Grey Knights were not removed from the game, but has been allowed to soldier on with old models and mediocre rules, until the day comes, where GK can be cut without too much of an angry response from the customer base. It is called being squatted by gradual decay. Cheers.

Gradual decay? Yeah, sometimes it seems to me that no matter what, Nurgle wins WH40k.

Grey knights are supposed to stop that! Noooo. If only we had the power to stop it.

 Smotejob wrote:
Grey knights are supposed to stop that! Noooo. If only we had the power to stop it.

Exalted. Hopefully GK get rebalanced as more changes happen. Right now Daemons aren’t even a good matchup, and that’s a shame. It shouldn’t be an auto-win, but you should have an advantage not cancelled out by the stratagem and Daemon’s power level.

I'm not saying it should be Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock, but GK should have a distinct advantage over Daemons. Daemons should have distinct advantages over certain other armies, etc. ond so on, and so on. And there should be several choices for players that want a more well-rounded army to play. This is where the argument that competitive play is ruining 40k comes in. If you're in a Tourney, that should be the luck of the draw. If I'm playing Demons, do I have to play the GK player before someone else takes him out in a Round-Robin? It's just their thing, you know?

If you force play-balance for the sake of tournament-style play, you sacrifice variety and what makes units/forces special. I'm not saying one way is better or worse, just that it's really hard to do both. Not many games do this well, even ones based on scalable d10 or d20 core mechanics.

No that's dumb, if you want fluff on tabletop make each GK have the stats of a GMDK. We had GK anti-Daemon dominance with warp quake and by all accounts... it wasn't fun.

Fluff has little impact on balance.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's about consolidating Inquisition and the forces they employ into one book.

So you mean Codex Inquisitors + Astra Miliatarum + Space Marines + Sisters of Battle + Assassins + Adeptus Mechanicus?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Iron Hands don't interact with Black Templars ya know.

What?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's about consolidating Inquisition and the forces they employ into one book.

So you mean Codex Inquisitors + Astra Miliatarum + Space Marines + Sisters of Battle + Assassins + Adeptus Mechanicus?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Iron Hands don't interact with Black Templars ya know.

What?

Last statement isn't hard to grasp.

I was more along the lines of Storm Troopers, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Sisters, Assassins, and the basic Inquisition stuff.
Separate the Knights/Watch/Sisters accordingly, and voila. Just like when Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters were Codices, except in one book in separate sections.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's about consolidating Inquisition and the forces they employ into one book.

So you mean Codex Inquisitors + Astra Miliatarum + Space Marines + Sisters of Battle + Assassins + Adeptus Mechanicus?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Iron Hands don't interact with Black Templars ya know.

What?

Last statement isn't hard to grasp.

I was more along the lines of Storm Troopers, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Sisters, Assassins, and the basic Inquisition stuff.
Separate the Knights/Watch/Sisters accordingly, and voila. Just like when Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters were Codices, except in one book in separate sections.

But then GW won’t be able to sell us 6 separate books to cover those 3 armies, which is why that will never happen.

SJ