Just wanted an open discussion about all of the races lore wise, and which is the most powerful. Orks are meant to have massive numbers but due to infighting do not use them well, perhaps a powerful warboss could fix this. Tyranids seem one of the most powerful (in my rather biased opinion) as the few hive fleets that have been in the lore are supposedly a very small proportion of the actual tyranid population, and of course the imperium and chaos are both insanely powerful. So what do you guys think, anyone I have missed, who is the most powerful, and will any race ever achieve full supremacy?
I think, following the hyped fluff, Tyranids and Necrons in all of his glory are the most powerfull races.
The Imperium of Mankind is the third one. A unified Ork Race would probably be second after Tyranids.
Chaos Daemons are theoretically the most powerfull one but they have the very great problem of "living" in a different dimension and the fact they hate themselves as much as living beings. Chaos Space Marines and renegade chaos humans can't compete with the Imperium of Mankind, even less with how deorganized they are.
Tau are obviously the least powerfull one, with Craftworld Eldars and Dark Eldars being too one of the lest powerfull races/factions as a wholle (So, counting all Craftworlds as one faction etc...)
I unify the Imperium because even if they can fight between themselves like Orks, is very different. Orks have build into their fluff how they are nearly incapable of being unified, in the case of the Imperium they are organized.
Formosa wrote: Are we talking completely unified, awoken etc.?
I was talking about as they are currently, although I think considering unification and other factors would be interesting. Do you think it would change anything?
Formosa wrote: Are we talking completely unified, awoken etc.?
I was talking about as they are currently, although I think considering unification and other factors would be interesting. Do you think it would change anything?
Yep it would absolutely, orks under a unified leader would be a true horror to behold, a completely awakened necron race would be unstoppable, even nids with their numbers couldn't stop them, the imperium is a bit of a difficult one though as even unified they still have the problem of getting everything where it's needed, eldar would be a nightmare of epic proportions as all eldar, harlequins and dark eldar together would have such a mobility advantage that again even nids would have to take pause.
But not of it compares to a unified chaos, all 4 gods with the same goal and power combined.... that's reality ending crap right there.
In fluff the ork race as a whole controls the most amount of planets and space in the galaxy. But they are hardly unified. If unified the fluff bluntly states theyd steamroll all opposition. Big if. The Imperium of man is the next up for territory or under control but is also identified as the largest unified and cohesive (loose terms considering it's plodding bureaucracy) force in the galaxy. Tyranids aren't here yet and still remains in the territory of theory but is currently on the list of end game powerhouses. Necrons are the last on this list of big players but I argue that their inclusion on this list since Newcron fluff has been artificially elevated in a sort of let it be so approach. Oldcrons were a unified force working towards the same end game goal. The idea of them all waking up was scary because the galaxy would suddenly face a unfixed galactic power rising up literally within their midst. Newcron, on the other hand, are like modern day human countries ununified, with all the same human internal bickering and politicking. Not only can the galaxy take breath of relief as they wait for Newcron to wake up but they can also kick back and relax while the Newcron fight amongst themselves until unified. But hey, they are on the list of end gamers. Maitaining the status quo should be chaos end game. As in they already won and must hold the title. Wiping out reality shouldn't be beneficial for chaos continued existence , keeping reality in perpetual turmoil that breed extreme emotions fits their plate.
ProwlerPC wrote: In fluff the ork race as a whole controls the most amount of planets and space in the galaxy. But they are hardly unified. If unified the fluff bluntly states theyd steamroll all opposition. Big if. The Imperium of man is the next up for territory or under control but is also identified as the largest unified and cohesive (loose terms considering it's plodding bureaucracy) force in the galaxy. Tyranids aren't here yet and still remains in the territory of theory but is currently on the list of end game powerhouses. Necrons are the last on this list of big players but I argue that their inclusion on this list since Newcron fluff has been artificially elevated in a sort of let it be so approach. Oldcrons were a unified force working towards the same end game goal. The idea of them all waking up was scary because the galaxy would suddenly face a unfixed galactic power rising up literally within their midst. Newcron, on the other hand, are like modern day human countries ununified, with all the same human internal bickering and politicking. Not only can the galaxy take breath of relief as they wait for Newcron to wake up but they can also kick back and relax while the Newcron fight amongst themselves until unified. But hey, they are on the list of end gamers. Maitaining the status quo should be chaos end game. As in they already won and must hold the title. Wiping out reality shouldn't be beneficial for chaos continued existence , keeping reality in perpetual turmoil that breed extreme emotions fits their plate.
Wiping out reality means nothing to the chaos gods, they have an infinite number to feed off, 40k is just "our" one.
ProwlerPC wrote: In fluff the ork race as a whole controls the most amount of planets and space in the galaxy. But they are hardly unified. If unified the fluff bluntly states theyd steamroll all opposition. Big if. The Imperium of man is the next up for territory or under control but is also identified as the largest unified and cohesive (loose terms considering it's plodding bureaucracy) force in the galaxy. Tyranids aren't here yet and still remains in the territory of theory but is currently on the list of end game powerhouses. Necrons are the last on this list of big players but I argue that their inclusion on this list since Newcron fluff has been artificially elevated in a sort of let it be so approach. Oldcrons were a unified force working towards the same end game goal. The idea of them all waking up was scary because the galaxy would suddenly face a unfixed galactic power rising up literally within their midst. Newcron, on the other hand, are like modern day human countries ununified, with all the same human internal bickering and politicking. Not only can the galaxy take breath of relief as they wait for Newcron to wake up but they can also kick back and relax while the Newcron fight amongst themselves until unified. But hey, they are on the list of end gamers. Maitaining the status quo should be chaos end game. As in they already won and must hold the title. Wiping out reality shouldn't be beneficial for chaos continued existence , keeping reality in perpetual turmoil that breed extreme emotions fits their plate.
Wiping out reality means nothing to the chaos gods, they have an infinite number to feed off, 40k is just "our" one.
Do they though? Not necessarily saying it's unlikely, but with as far as I can tell no evidence either way it could well be, i don't know, 6 realities. Or 3 and a half. Or a billion, but 99% of them are filled with unfeeling unthinking robotic clones of Jeff Goldblum.
ProwlerPC wrote: In fluff the ork race as a whole controls the most amount of planets and space in the galaxy. But they are hardly unified. If unified the fluff bluntly states theyd steamroll all opposition. Big if. The Imperium of man is the next up for territory or under control but is also identified as the largest unified and cohesive (loose terms considering it's plodding bureaucracy) force in the galaxy. Tyranids aren't here yet and still remains in the territory of theory but is currently on the list of end game powerhouses. Necrons are the last on this list of big players but I argue that their inclusion on this list since Newcron fluff has been artificially elevated in a sort of let it be so approach. Oldcrons were a unified force working towards the same end game goal. The idea of them all waking up was scary because the galaxy would suddenly face a unfixed galactic power rising up literally within their midst. Newcron, on the other hand, are like modern day human countries ununified, with all the same human internal bickering and politicking. Not only can the galaxy take breath of relief as they wait for Newcron to wake up but they can also kick back and relax while the Newcron fight amongst themselves until unified. But hey, they are on the list of end gamers. Maitaining the status quo should be chaos end game. As in they already won and must hold the title. Wiping out reality shouldn't be beneficial for chaos continued existence , keeping reality in perpetual turmoil that breed extreme emotions fits their plate.
Wiping out reality means nothing to the chaos gods, they have an infinite number to feed off, 40k is just "our" one.
Do they though? Not necessarily saying it's unlikely, but with as far as I can tell no evidence either way it could well be, i don't know, 6 realities. Or 3 and a half. Or a billion, but 99% of them are filled with unfeeling unthinking robotic clones of Jeff Goldblum.
Yeah they do, it's been established fluff for a few decades now, I'll dig out the quotes for you when I get on my laptop later if you want to read it, it's pretty good.
OK no problem. I'll just discreetly pull the I Win button away from chaos since they have more work to do. I normally separated fantasy and 40k but they would be an example of multiple realities in this regard. It can open up some interesting and some uncomfortable questions if GW chose to make it so but that's another topic. Chaos still remains firmly as a big player.
But not of it compares to a unified chaos, all 4 gods with the same goal and power combined.... that's reality ending crap right there.
Which goes against everything Chaos means. The universe is going to be a cold, dead and empty husk long before the 4 gods agree on something beyond weak compromises.
Also if we were going with the fantasy fluff of all the universes were connected by the warp why are chaos space marines and hell drakes and mortarion not popping out into Fantasy and lighting people up with bolters?
Necrons beat Nids in the long run. Nids can't consume them Necrons can scorched earth the galaxy if necessary to deny them biomass.
The Necrons aren't united, are still mostly sleeping and burning the galaxy is the equivalent of burning your house to kill an infestation. Sure it works, but then you don't have a house anymore.
Lance845 wrote: Tyranids by sheer inevitability of their victory.
Necrons by technology.
IoM by size of controlled space.
Orks are below IOM because they dont have any actual chance of wide spread organization
Necrons beat Nids in the long run. Nids can't consume them Necrons can scorched earth the galaxy if necessary to deny them biomass.
Wrong. Nids consume and use all organic matter Which is any compound with carbon, But the digestion pools dissolve everything. It's not like a space marines armor can survive basking in a digestion pool or the feeder organisms (Haruspex) would avoid eating necron bodies. It all gets ate. It all gets melted down. And any organic compouds in the gruel are used. Would it be efficient to eat only the necrons? No. But if the nids keep winning then it's a net 0 at minimum and the Nids would regain their own biomass plus anything they managed to strip out of the crons themselves.
The crons would need to wipe all hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, etc etc... from the galaxy to actually starve the nids. Even if we took scorched earth literally and they burned all the worlds to ash that ash is still pretty scrumptious to the nids.
The Necrons don't just need to cut off their supply (good luck) they also have to beat back the nids to stop them from consuming their own dead and eliminate that matter as it's being produced.
Now.... do I think the crons could invent ways to do that? Yes. They already have some actually. But they have never deployed them in wide spread usage and so many of them are so insane that they are trapped into their logic of "honorable ways of war" that they would never see them them in wide spread usage. It's a numbers game. Nids always win the numbers game.
I think the definition of "most powerful" needs to be more specific when this kind of question is asked.
The Necrons supposedly have technology that is simply impossible to rival in terms of firepower, although such weapons are locked away rather than used. The Eldar and Tau, on the other hand, have and use technology that is superior to most of the galaxy's major races, but there aren't enough of them to justify them being the most powerful in terms of staying power.
Tyranids and Orks have the greatest numbers, but then the Imperial Guard have a far greater staying power in terms of holding their ground than either of them.
Space Marines and the various elite divisions like the Deathwatch and Grey Knights are well known for surpassing any other type of warrior the other races have, but again their numbers are lacking in comparison.
Even the forces of Chaos, who can and have been quelled before, could be argued to be the most powerful simply because they're impossible to remove from the galaxy, and will always be back to wreak havoc across the Imperium.
You can also look at characters in the lore describing the other races in terms of power. Sergeant Tarkus of the Blood Ravens said in DOW2 that the Necrons were the most dangerous enemy he's faced in combat, but that the Tyranids are the greatest threat to the galaxy.
So yeah, really depends on how you define "most powerful"; I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to a question that broad.
To be fair the Necrons DO use some of their unrivaled technology. Flame Gauntlets are portals to the inside of stars. Tachyon Arrows are essentially the Necron version of a derringer and it can level mountains. Deathmarks sit outside of known reality and watch events unfold in 4 dimensions choosing when and where to step into reality and strike.
Necron tech is so astronomically powerful they perform literal miracles of science every day.
Lance845 wrote: Tyranids by sheer inevitability of their victory.
Necrons by technology.
IoM by size of controlled space.
Orks are below IOM because they dont have any actual chance of wide spread organization
Necrons beat Nids in the long run. Nids can't consume them Necrons can scorched earth the galaxy if necessary to deny them biomass.
Wrong. Nids consume and use all organic matter Which is any compound with carbon, But the digestion pools dissolve everything. It's not like a space marines armor can survive basking in a digestion pool or the feeder organisms (Haruspex) would avoid eating necron bodies. It all gets ate. It all gets melted down. And any organic compouds in the gruel are used. Would it be efficient to eat only the necrons? No. But if the nids keep winning then it's a net 0 at minimum and the Nids would regain their own biomass plus anything they managed to strip out of the crons themselves.
The crons would need to wipe all hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, etc etc... from the galaxy to actually starve the nids. Even if we took scorched earth literally and they burned all the worlds to ash that ash is still pretty scrumptious to the nids.
The Necrons don't just need to cut off their supply (good luck) they also have to beat back the nids to stop them from consuming their own dead and eliminate that matter as it's being produced.
Now.... do I think the crons could invent ways to do that? Yes. They already have some actually. But they have never deployed them in wide spread usage and so many of them are so insane that they are trapped into their logic of "honorable ways of war" that they would never see them them in wide spread usage. It's a numbers game. Nids always win the numbers game.
Thats not how the fluff has been represented. Has been demostrated by the Imperium that scorching planets is an effective way to starve Tyranid Hive Fleets, and making them go where you want them to go. If the Imperium with their inferior science can do it, Necrons can.
And remember that basic Gauss weapons destroy matter. Theres no body to eat again and regain that biomass after a necron gauss weapon has vaporized a Tyranid Gaunt, for example.
I actually believe Necrons are the only possible faction that could stand agaisnt Tyranids, if all of them where awoken. I think a flat out war of Chaos vs Tyranids, Tyranids would win with ease.
Lance845 wrote: Tyranids by sheer inevitability of their victory.
Necrons by technology.
IoM by size of controlled space.
Orks are below IOM because they dont have any actual chance of wide spread organization
Necrons beat Nids in the long run. Nids can't consume them Necrons can scorched earth the galaxy if necessary to deny them biomass.
Wrong. Nids consume and use all organic matter Which is any compound with carbon, But the digestion pools dissolve everything. It's not like a space marines armor can survive basking in a digestion pool or the feeder organisms (Haruspex) would avoid eating necron bodies. It all gets ate. It all gets melted down. And any organic compouds in the gruel are used. Would it be efficient to eat only the necrons? No. But if the nids keep winning then it's a net 0 at minimum and the Nids would regain their own biomass plus anything they managed to strip out of the crons themselves.
The crons would need to wipe all hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, etc etc... from the galaxy to actually starve the nids. Even if we took scorched earth literally and they burned all the worlds to ash that ash is still pretty scrumptious to the nids.
The Necrons don't just need to cut off their supply (good luck) they also have to beat back the nids to stop them from consuming their own dead and eliminate that matter as it's being produced.
Now.... do I think the crons could invent ways to do that? Yes. They already have some actually. But they have never deployed them in wide spread usage and so many of them are so insane that they are trapped into their logic of "honorable ways of war" that they would never see them them in wide spread usage. It's a numbers game. Nids always win the numbers game.
We can agree to disagree. There's some serious chemistry problems with how you describe the Nids, but it's GW, so go figure.
Tyranids could also be beaten by anyone who fielded true Starship Troopers, complete with Y racks. That's getting up to 1,000,000 to 1 kill ratios, at which point the Tyranid numbers are meaningless. But no one wants to play games against Y-rack starship troopers. Turn 1, your army dies from 2 km away. Fluff arguments like this always boil down to the races with technology being stupid. Especially the Imperium.
Lance845 wrote: Tyranids by sheer inevitability of their victory.
Necrons by technology.
IoM by size of controlled space.
Orks are below IOM because they dont have any actual chance of wide spread organization
Necrons beat Nids in the long run. Nids can't consume them Necrons can scorched earth the galaxy if necessary to deny them biomass.
Wrong. Nids consume and use all organic matter Which is any compound with carbon, But the digestion pools dissolve everything. It's not like a space marines armor can survive basking in a digestion pool or the feeder organisms (Haruspex) would avoid eating necron bodies. It all gets ate. It all gets melted down. And any organic compouds in the gruel are used. Would it be efficient to eat only the necrons? No. But if the nids keep winning then it's a net 0 at minimum and the Nids would regain their own biomass plus anything they managed to strip out of the crons themselves.
The crons would need to wipe all hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, etc etc... from the galaxy to actually starve the nids. Even if we took scorched earth literally and they burned all the worlds to ash that ash is still pretty scrumptious to the nids.
The Necrons don't just need to cut off their supply (good luck) they also have to beat back the nids to stop them from consuming their own dead and eliminate that matter as it's being produced.
Now.... do I think the crons could invent ways to do that? Yes. They already have some actually. But they have never deployed them in wide spread usage and so many of them are so insane that they are trapped into their logic of "honorable ways of war" that they would never see them them in wide spread usage. It's a numbers game. Nids always win the numbers game.
Thats not how the fluff has been represented. Has been demostrated by the Imperium that scorching planets is an effective way to starve Tyranid Hive Fleets, and making them go where you want them to go. If the Imperium with their inferior science can do it, Necrons can.
And remember that basic Gauss weapons destroy matter. Theres no body to eat again and regain that biomass after a necron gauss weapon has vaporized a Tyranid Gaunt, for example.
I actually believe Necrons are the only possible faction that could stand agaisnt Tyranids, if all of them where awoken. I think a flat out war of Chaos vs Tyranids, Tyranids would win with ease.
They used Exterminatus to divert the nids to more favorable planets. That doesn't mean those planet didn't still have things the nids could consume. IoM has many methods of Exterminatus, including planet crackers that actually destroy the world itself.
Basic Gauss weapons don't destroy matter. It breaks it down into it's basic atoms. Acording to the fluff the nids strip planets of every drop of water, every molecule of gas. Every usable scrap of organic mater. They don't need rippers to eat a body to regain the matter to produce more nids.
We can agree to disagree. There's some serious chemistry problems with how you describe the Nids, but it's GW, so go figure.
Tyranids could also be beaten by anyone who fielded true Starship Troopers, complete with Y racks. That's getting up to 1,000,000 to 1 kill ratios, at which point the Tyranid numbers are meaningless. But no one wants to play games against Y-rack starship troopers. Turn 1, your army dies from 2 km away. Fluff arguments like this always boil down to the races with technology being stupid. Especially the Imperium.
Agree there are major chemistry probems. Agree that GW fluff is real dumb.
Yup. When every race in the game has an infinite supply of planet destroying weapons what are you even arguing about? The one thing I would say about nids is that they are their own planet destroying weapons.
Lance845 wrote: To be fair the Necrons DO use some of their unrivaled technology. Flame Gauntlets are portals to the inside of stars. Tachyon Arrows are essentially the Necron version of a derringer and it can level mountains. Deathmarks sit outside of known reality and watch events unfold in 4 dimensions choosing when and where to step into reality and strike.
Necron tech is so astronomically powerful they perform literal miracles of science every day.
This is true, they do use a portion of the vastly superior technology that they have created on their foes (the Tesseract Labyrinth of one of favourites in that regard). But it is also likely that far more powerful technology is locked away by various Crypteks; I reckon this combined with the Great Sleep not being completely finished would be reason to say that the Necrons are not the most credible threat to the galaxy, but that they're one of the most, if not the most, dangerous races to face on the battlefield.
Ultimately like I said previously, it depends on what answer you want to the question of "who is the most powerful" to get an answer to that.
Hm... this is a tough one. Orks have remained the strongest the longest. They where around winning before the necrons went to sleep and they’re around wining now.
Tyranids are a kind of untested powerhouse since lore wise they’ve only been in the Milky Way for some 300years-ish. Any talk about the tyranids must eventually lead to speculations about how big the race actually is.
If I remember things correctly the necrons where losing the war against the elders, old ones and orks when they went to take their little nap. Since they lost the war vs pre craft world eldar and orks I’m assuming they’re not as powerfull as can be fantasised.
Chaos doesn’t make much sense. Its goals are more controlled by the desires of specific individuals rather then the faction as a whole.
I think it’s easy to at least say that all eldar factions and the tak are the weakest.
Mankind as a species has been dominant in the galaxy for about 3.5X as long as the imperium has been around, depending on the source. The Imperium isn’t a very efficient state but it is a very impressive machine of war. Theese guys have been in a constant state of war for as long as the Imperium has existed, and they’re pretty good at it.
In my biased opinion the Imperium wins at being currently the most powerfull faction. The reason for this is because the Imperium is taking on every other faction at once and is still standing. Second I would put the tyranids due to their many recent victories. Then comes the necrons, though I’ve not read off many conflicts they’ve participated in. After that comes the orks for obvious reasons. I’d put chaos after the orks due to it not playing by the same rules as the others. Bear in mind that I’m very well aware of how the badly the Imperium is currently being beaten. I’m thinking that it’s losing heavily but still taking everyone on and might very well end up on top in the end. Even with necron science and tyranids multiplications the imperium has won great wars against them in the past. Destroying the necron world engine, wrecking many tomb worlds and beating both hive fleet Behemoth and Kraken in the first and second tyrannic wars.
But not of it compares to a unified chaos, all 4 gods with the same goal and power combined.... that's reality ending crap right there.
Which goes against everything Chaos means. The universe is going to be a cold, dead and empty husk long before the 4 gods agree on something beyond weak compromises.
All it takes is for one of them to win, then it becomes the other 3, all 4 combined would be a super chaos god of Death, war, excess and change "Tzeen'Khor'Slaa'Urgle"
Not gonna happen, but thats why I asked if it was united forces.
Lance845 wrote: Tyranids by sheer inevitability of their victory.
Necrons by technology.
IoM by size of controlled space.
Orks are below IOM because they dont have any actual chance of wide spread organization
Necrons beat Nids in the long run. Nids can't consume them Necrons can scorched earth the galaxy if necessary to deny them biomass.
Wrong. Nids consume and use all organic matter Which is any compound with carbon, But the digestion pools dissolve everything. It's not like a space marines armor can survive basking in a digestion pool or the feeder organisms (Haruspex) would avoid eating necron bodies. It all gets ate. It all gets melted down. And any organic compouds in the gruel are used. Would it be efficient to eat only the necrons? No. But if the nids keep winning then it's a net 0 at minimum and the Nids would regain their own biomass plus anything they managed to strip out of the crons themselves.
The crons would need to wipe all hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, etc etc... from the galaxy to actually starve the nids. Even if we took scorched earth literally and they burned all the worlds to ash that ash is still pretty scrumptious to the nids.
The Necrons don't just need to cut off their supply (good luck) they also have to beat back the nids to stop them from consuming their own dead and eliminate that matter as it's being produced.
Now.... do I think the crons could invent ways to do that? Yes. They already have some actually. But they have never deployed them in wide spread usage and so many of them are so insane that they are trapped into their logic of "honorable ways of war" that they would never see them them in wide spread usage. It's a numbers game. Nids always win the numbers game.
Necron bodies are either teleported back to base or vaporize upon death, so no, the Tyranids wouldn't be able to eat that. Organic matter also isn't just any compound with carbon. Carbon Dioxide isn't an organic compound, just for an example. The Necrons' gauss weaponry would be pretty ideal facing Tyranids, literally vaporizing the bodies atom by atom and depriving the Tyranids of their own bodies. Even if the Tyranids did recover some of their own dead, the energy they'd expend in doing so, consuming them, returning to the digestive pits and rebirthing them would be quite a bit more than they'd recover.
Solar-powered_chainsword wrote: Even if the Tyranids did recover some of their own dead, the energy they'd expend in doing so, consuming them, returning to the digestive pits and rebirthing them would be quite a bit more than they'd recover.
Tyranids don't rely on biomass for energy - because they literally cannot, given what they do, going from star system to star system, landing and then pumping biomass to geostationary orbit. There just isn't enough energy stored in even the most energy dense biomass (fat). Presumably they get free energy from the warp.
@Nerak. The necrons completly won the war against the eldar, old ones, orks. The eldar were not yet the full eldar yet and the orks were the orukk or whatever their precursor was called.
The necrons decided to nap after total domination of the galaxy because they wanted to wake up when their kingdom recovered.
@solar powered chainsword
The nids take all the gasses and all the everything. It doesnt make sense. Its what happens though. When somone sees a world devoured by the nids its just hollowed out dead rock. The air is gone. The fluid is gone. Everything is gone. If gaus turned nids into a bunch or atoms drifting off as gas that gas would be collected.
If the necron exploded its atoms still exist.
If the necron teleported its tombs would still be invaded.
Its dimb, yes. 40ks fluff is real dumb. But thats the nids.
What? That makes no sense. The Eldar and Orks were still around and both had the capacity to take control of the galaxy. Why on earth would you then leave them to it?
The only reason for Necrons to sleep is because they lost their war for some reason.
Because at the time the orks and eldar were NOT capable of taking over the galaxy. They were just 2 of the great many lower races all over the galaxy. They litteraly were not on the crons radar when they went to sleep.
My mistake. I think I confused the lore with the text-to-speech thing on youtube. Sometimes one remmembers the silly (but rather entertaining) videos instead of the actual stuff.
Lance845 wrote: Because at the time the orks and eldar were NOT capable of taking over the galaxy. They were just 2 of the great many lower races all over the galaxy. They litteraly were not on the crons radar when they went to sleep.
Even so why leave? Why just leave things alone when you could actually do something proactive to help restore your empire?
I can understand the Necrons winning but not the sleeping part. They just don't seem to go together. It made sense to me with the oldcrons when their food was eliminated by Enslavers but now it's just weird. We've won but we're just going to abandon everything.
Necrons went to bed because they were too weak after the Civil War with C'tan
And it's hard to say who won the war. The old ones were destroyed only because of the appearance of the Enslaver (it is still the canon), but the Eldar remained and could fight.
But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
They reached their preset kill quota. obviously.
stop trying to inject logic into it otherwise literally all of 40k breaks.
We can only really say that the Necron, Eldar, and Orks survived both the War in Heaven and the Enslaver Plague. Old ones created a bunch of warp sensitive races and as the war raged on their warp haven became twisted due to the emotional echoes of the embattled races they created. All manner of violent beasties emerged in the warp causing the old ones to lose ground in what was once their own sanctuary dimension. The Enslaver Plague was the last straw. Unsure if all the old ones died or if survivors just up and left. This marked the end of the War in Heaven. Necrons revolted against their ctan masters and succeeded. Meanwhile all the life created by the Old One's were getting slaughtered into extinction with the Enslave Plague going wildly out of control. The weakened Necrons, finally free from Ctan, looked at the galaxy and said 'nope' then took a nap to wait out till the galaxy life recovered (then act emo when they find 'squatters'). I don't recall ever finding fluff on how the Eldar and Orks survived but they did despite many others not making it.
pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
They reached their preset kill quota. obviously.
stop trying to inject logic into it otherwise literally all of 40k breaks.
Normally I'm really good at avoiding the logic. But this is just bothers me more because oldcrons had a good enough explanation behind why they went to sleep then Matt Ward came along and Warded over it all.
Because the silent king saw what they became and what it did to the galaxy. He wanted the galaxy to recover. All necrons everywhere were slaves to the silent kings will. He ordered the great sleep, ended their slave protocols to himself so they could regain some free will, and exiled himself out of the galaxy. The hope was that the dynastys would awaken to a reborn galaxy where they could rule justly.
Then in the coid he saw the nids. Went... Fuuuuuuuck... And turned around to try to warn everyone. He didnt expect that the crons would go insane from the great sleep or that the galaxy would be such a massive gak hole when they woke up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It was the decision of one guy who was trying to let the galaxy self correct in their absence. Not the choice of the whole race.
pm713 wrote: Even with that you could've stayed awake to heal the galaxy. It feels like a bad patch on a decent original reason.
Could they? millions of years of doing gak all would probably drive them insane anyway. im guess Sking's plan would of been doomed from the start.
Take shifts. They could just do it as a method of ensure all worlds are at x level of stability or whatever then sleep for a few thousand years then wake up, check and either fix or sleep. Plus they're robots so they could just live in VR or something to relieve stress.
Another explanation for the Tyranid energy needs is that Tyranids use fusion reactors. The Tyranids after all already consume entire oceans which should be full of deuterium. And they already are capable of generating bioplasma.
The only reason that would make sense to me would be the Necrons saw that the War in Heaven was empowering the warp, which was bad, so they decided to sleep, confident the Enslavers would consume all material life, and the warp would then slowly get calm again afterwards. They didn't count on the Eldar surviving, the Kroak (orks) surviving, the fall of the Eldar and birth of Slaneesh, then the expansion of mankind and finally mankind's evolution into a psychic race. The warp is now much worse than when the Necrons went to sleep, and with the Tyranids bearing down, the only way to 'save' the galaxy from becoming one gigantic warp storm is for the Necrons to wake up and kick the crap out of everything.
John Prins wrote: The only reason that would make sense to me would be the Necrons saw that the War in Heaven was empowering the warp, which was bad, so they decided to sleep, confident the Enslavers would consume all material life, and the warp would then slowly get calm again afterwards. They didn't count on the Eldar surviving, the Kroak (orks) surviving, the fall of the Eldar and birth of Slaneesh, then the expansion of mankind and finally mankind's evolution into a psychic race. The warp is now much worse than when the Necrons went to sleep, and with the Tyranids bearing down, the only way to 'save' the galaxy from becoming one gigantic warp storm is for the Necrons to wake up and kick the crap out of everything.
Arguably the warp is only really as bad as it is because of the war in heaven. The wih makes the horus heresy look like a playground spat. It was the sheer scale of the horrors unleashed by the necrotyr and the ctan that made the warp the crap hole it is. Then killing the flayer after changed the fundamental fabric of the materium for the worse.
Basically the eldar and mankind inherited a broken universe inside and out. Their failings were only as bad as they were because the necrons broke it first.
Thats basically what happened with Fantasy. The Old Ones broke the planet and fleed. Thats why everything was horrible. 40K does that in a galactic scale.
pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
It doesn't make much sense, the Necron fluff is just terrible.
But they were afraid of Eldar and their gods. Eldar gods were really powerful at that period, Khaine fought and defeated Nightbringer.
pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
It doesn't make much sense, the Necron fluff is just terrible.
But they were afraid of Eldar and their gods. Eldar gods were really powerful at that period, Khaine fought and defeated Nightbringer.
You are citing Eldar mythology with nothing else to support it.
The Nightbringer was feeding on all the races of the galaxy and planting a fear of death into every race. Then the Necrons defeat the C'Tan and sealed him away. The Ancient Eldar then interpreted that as a myth of their god of war defeating death.
The Crons and the C'tan have never been afraid of anything and the Eldar never put the Necrons on the run.
Still cannon, plus necrons also have black holes, starkillers, can turn off fundamental forces of nature, like the strong nuclear force. Here is a good break down of the kind of abilities the necrons can bring to bear:
LeviathanSwarmlord wrote: Just wanted an open discussion about all of the races lore wise, and which is the most powerful. Orks are meant to have massive numbers but due to infighting do not use them well, perhaps a powerful warboss could fix this. Tyranids seem one of the most powerful (in my rather biased opinion) as the few hive fleets that have been in the lore are supposedly a very small proportion of the actual tyranid population, and of course the imperium and chaos are both insanely powerful. So what do you guys think, anyone I have missed, who is the most powerful, and will any race ever achieve full supremacy?
In terms of territory held. Humans. In terms of numbers: Orkz. In terms of technology: Necrons.
pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
It doesn't make much sense, the Necron fluff is just terrible.
But they were afraid of Eldar and their gods. Eldar gods were really powerful at that period, Khaine fought and defeated Nightbringer.
Khaine fought a shard of the nightbringer, and for his victory he got driven mad and tainted by the C'Tan shard. The C'Tan are embodiments of fundamental aspects of reality, like when the flayer was destroyed the laws of physics changed. They aren't something as transitory as a warp deity, which is a manifestation of a collective subconscious, they have existed since the creation of the universe, and will exist until it's destroyed.
posixthreads on reddit put together this timeline of the war in heaven, and it lays it out pretty clearly (well as clearly as it can given the sometimes contradictory accounts), if you have questions I'd suggest you check it out:
pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
It doesn't make much sense, the Necron fluff is just terrible.
But they were afraid of Eldar and their gods. Eldar gods were really powerful at that period, Khaine fought and defeated Nightbringer.
You are citing Eldar mythology with nothing else to support it.
The Nightbringer was feeding on all the races of the galaxy and planting a fear of death into every race. Then the Necrons defeat the C'Tan and sealed him away. The Ancient Eldar then interpreted that as a myth of their god of war defeating death.
The Crons and the C'tan have never been afraid of anything and the Eldar never put the Necrons on the run.
This. Shadowseer Lhaerial's boasting in The Beast Arises series is just that: Boasting.
The Old Ones and their cannon fodder races got their asses handed to them in the War in Heaven. The only thing that saved the Eldar (and Orkz, Hrud, etc) was the Silent King's revolt against the C'Tan, which shattered the C'tan and weakened the Necrons. Hence, their 65 million year long nap and the Silent King's self-imposed exile, allowing the Eldar free reign in the galaxy.
When Humanity came onto the scene and united as a galactic species, the Eldar were already in decline. Mankind's star was eclipsing that of the Sphess Elfz. Regardless of Lhaerial's hollow boasting, and the account of one lost battle in the Path of the Eldar series, the lore is clear that Humanity considered the threat of the Eldar (and other xenos races) as inconsequential.
Even in the 41st Millennium, most of the Eldar's "wins" against the Necrons involved destroying Tomb Worlds. In most stand-up fights with the Necrons, the Eldar got the worst end of it.
pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
It doesn't make much sense, the Necron fluff is just terrible.
But they were afraid of Eldar and their gods. Eldar gods were really powerful at that period, Khaine fought and defeated Nightbringer.
You are citing Eldar mythology with nothing else to support it.
The Nightbringer was feeding on all the races of the galaxy and planting a fear of death into every race. Then the Necrons defeat the C'Tan and sealed him away. The Ancient Eldar then interpreted that as a myth of their god of war defeating death.
The Crons and the C'tan have never been afraid of anything and the Eldar never put the Necrons on the run.
This is quite accurate minus one detail. The orks never gained that fear. More due to death being a significant part of their reproduction , they are hardwired to not fear it.
pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
It doesn't make much sense, the Necron fluff is just terrible.
But they were afraid of Eldar and their gods. Eldar gods were really powerful at that period, Khaine fought and defeated Nightbringer.
You are citing Eldar mythology with nothing else to support it.
The Nightbringer was feeding on all the races of the galaxy and planting a fear of death into every race. Then the Necrons defeat the C'Tan and sealed him away. The Ancient Eldar then interpreted that as a myth of their god of war defeating death.
The Crons and the C'tan have never been afraid of anything and the Eldar never put the Necrons on the run.
Essentially the C'tan are Gods of the material realm, God's not in the usual GW sense of the word, but approaching Jehova level of Godhood.
In the 3rd edition Necron background they were ancient when the Necrontry were young. Now they have been sharded they have lost a lot of their power, however that isn't to say that they could reforge themselves and go back to being actual Gods, and not mere extra dimensional collections of emotions that the Chaos Gods are.
Adding the C'tan and the Old Ones in to 40k was one of the best things done by GW, as it removed the main battle from being Human Vs Chaos, and more to the fall out from an ancient war fought.
No matter what any race does in the galaxy, they are fighting over a domain that has already been destined to ruin by those who came before.
What is interesting is how the Tyranids fit into this, as they aren't native to this galaxy.
The Old Ones and their cannon fodder races got their asses handed to them in the War in Heaven. The only thing that saved the Eldar (and Orkz, Hrud, etc) was the Silent King's revolt against the C'Tan, which shattered the C'tan and weakened the Necrons. Hence, their 65 million year long nap and the Silent King's self-imposed exile, allowing the Eldar free reign in the galaxy.
'We totally could have beaten you, but we decided to take a nap instead.'
The Old Ones and their cannon fodder races got their asses handed to them in the War in Heaven. The only thing that saved the Eldar (and Orkz, Hrud, etc) was the Silent King's revolt against the C'Tan, which shattered the C'tan and weakened the Necrons. Hence, their 65 million year long nap and the Silent King's self-imposed exile, allowing the Eldar free reign in the galaxy.
'We totally could have beaten you, but we decided to take a nap instead.'
Likely story, bro!
Aside from it also being in Eldar Mythology.
Way back when the Necrons were first released ( 2nd edition) there stories in the WD about how the Eldar where warning the Imperium not to go venture on to certain planets as it would awaken the sleeping ones.
Low and begold, it did. Hence the Necrons woke up. The Eldar feared the Necrons, and rightly so.
pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
It doesn't make much sense, the Necron fluff is just terrible.
But they were afraid of Eldar and their gods. Eldar gods were really powerful at that period, Khaine fought and defeated Nightbringer.
You are citing Eldar mythology with nothing else to support it.
The Nightbringer was feeding on all the races of the galaxy and planting a fear of death into every race. Then the Necrons defeat the C'Tan and sealed him away. The Ancient Eldar then interpreted that as a myth of their god of war defeating death.
The Crons and the C'tan have never been afraid of anything and the Eldar never put the Necrons on the run.
You're citing Necron mythology.
Mythology backed by other sources. You see, the nightbringer isn't running rampant around the galaxy. Every race except the Orks have myths of some Death, grim reaper entitiy that they all inherently fear. And Shards of the Nightbringer are sealed up by the necrons inside their teseract vaults.
Right now in the modern day of 40k there is evidence to support what happened with the crons. The Eldar aint got gak from the war in heaven.
Way back when the Necrons were first released ( 2nd edition) there stories in the WD about how the Eldar where warning the Imperium not to go venture on to certain planets as it would awaken the sleeping ones.
Low and begold, it did. Hence the Necrons woke up. The Eldar feared the Necrons, and rightly so.
I'm sure they did fear them! But Necrons feared the Eldar as well logically realised that it would not be productive to continue to fight the Eldar.
It's important to remember that the Eldar and orks were still being developed during the war in heaven. They were essentially a unfinished project of the old ones.
They never really got the numbers or advancement needed to fight in any meaningful way during the war in heaven.
When the crons went to sleep the eldar and orks were like mankind before they left Terra. It was only in the Crons absence that the Eldar grew to dominate because they were uplifted so high by the Oldones. Keep in mind that a LOT of eldar tech is Old Ones tech. The webway wasn't built by the eldar. It was inherited from the old ones in their absence and the absence of any other force to contest it. And they claimed it uncontested because the necrons went to go take their nap.
Like it or not, the eldar rose to power relatively uncontested because they were so insignificant at the end of the war in heaven that they wern't worth thinking about stamping out.
Mythology backed by other sources. You see, the nightbringer isn't running rampant around the galaxy. Every race except the Orks have myths of some Death, grim reaper entitiy that they all inherently fear. And Shards of the Nightbringer are sealed up by the necrons inside their teseract vaults.
What does this has to do with anything?
Right now in the modern day of 40k there is evidence to support what happened with the crons.
They went in hiding for millions of years because they were so afraid of the Eldar and they finally have mustered the courage to show their ugly metal faces again when the Eldar Empire has been gone for several millennia?
Way back when the Necrons were first released ( 2nd edition) there stories in the WD about how the Eldar where warning the Imperium not to go venture on to certain planets as it would awaken the sleeping ones.
Low and begold, it did. Hence the Necrons woke up. The Eldar feared the Necrons, and rightly so.
I'm sure they did fear them! But Necrons feared the Eldar as well logically realised that it would not be productive to continue to fight the Eldar.
Nope, remember how in Eldar Mythology during the war in heaven Khaine asked Vaul to make those 1,000 swords? And as they were some that were imperfect Khaine lost the war in heaven, that was the Deceiver, a being that has played both sides during the war in heaven to further its own agenda.
The C'tan and their servants: Necrons didn't fear the Eldar, but were worried that due to them bring in the Warp would threaten their food supply. It wasn't anything inheret in the Eldar's doing, but rather a side effect even the Old Ones hadn't forseen. Hence them leaving the background of both 40k and WFB.
Nope, remember how in Eldar Mythology during the war in heaven Khaine asked Vaul to make those 1,000 swords? And as they were some that were imperfect Khaine lost the war in heaven, that was the Deceiver, a being that has played both sides during the war in heaven to further its own agenda.
No, I don't remember that. I however remember Vaul promising to make hundred swords for Khaine, making only 99 and substituting a mortal made blade for the last one. This enraged Khaine, thus resulting the War in Heaven. Vaul made the last sword, Anaris, which was the mightiest sword ever made. Despite Vaul, and Later Eldanesh wielding Anaris, Khaine beat them both, winning the War in Heaven. Oh, and Nightbringer and his C'tan buddies were also somehow involved, but that was a minor distraction, Khaine fought them too and won (that was probably for which he originally wanted those hundred swords for.)
The C'tan and their servants: Necrons didn't fear the Eldar, but were worried that due to them bring in the Warp would threaten their food supply. It wasn't anything inheret in the Eldar's doing, but rather a side effect even the Old Ones hadn't forseen. Hence them leaving the background of both 40k and WFB.
So basically they were afraid of the Eldar gods. Because that's who inhabited the warp back then.
So basically they were afraid of the Eldar gods. Because that's who inhabited the warp back then.
No, they didn't want to deal with the enslavers. Also literally all of the answers to your questions is in the link below, in mostly chronological order and with citations. The knowledge is yours for the taking:
So basically they were afraid of the Eldar gods. Because that's who inhabited the warp back then.
No, they didn't want to deal with the enslavers.
Funny how the Eldar didn't seem to have problems dealing with the Enslavers...
Also literally all of the answers to your questions is in the link below, in mostly chronological order and with citations. The knowledge is yours for the taking:
So basically they were afraid of the Eldar gods. Because that's who inhabited the warp back then.
No, they didn't want to deal with the enslavers.
Funny how the Eldar didn't seem to have problems dealing with the Enslavers...
Also literally all of the answers to your questions is in the link below, in mostly chronological order and with citations. The knowledge is yours for the taking:
Hey, people took the Horus Heresy fables seriously too, and now there is an entire separate game dedicated to that gak. If I have to deal with the Primarch myths taken seriously they you'll have to deal with the Eldar myths being taken seriously too!
How do you know that crimson? maybe the eldar took millions of years to fight off the enslaver plague, we just dont know.
Sure, maybe it took some effort. But the fact remains that the Eldar (somehow) dealt with the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't or wouldn't.
And yes, any site that brings a lot of sources together to try to get a good idea of what happened is a good source of lore, dont you use lexicanum?
It is handy, but probably better to take that sort of thing with a rain of salt. It is a lot of scattered tales from over the years, containing intentional and unintentional retcons presented together like they would form a coherent and concurrent narrative, while they really don't.
Hey, people took the Horus Heresy fables seriously too, and now there is an entire separate game dedicated to that gak.
Off topic slightly, but I really hope that GW explore the ancient history of 40K as a game at some point, or even as a series of novels, just like the Horus Heresy has received.
My general understanding is that chaos and by virtue of that, Khorne is the most powerful. Chaos is divided, yes, but thats beacuse they literally dont see anything else as a threat other than one another in their great game (a fact well established in canon). Every other time the chaos gods have acted in a unified manner, they've won - simple as. They are the defending champions with their foot on the throat of every species one way or another and even more so, they now have the full marketing might of GW supporting them. Tzeentch really does touch all...
Any source that is a collection of citations to support the information is infinitly more reliable then some guy on dakka who is claiming that eldar were the greatest and won the war in heaven. Not even a question.
The orks and eldar still exist today because they were so weak back then that they were not worth exterminating. On the other hand all the other warrior races the old ones used dont exist anymore. Because the necrons wiped them from the galaxy.
Semper wrote: My general understanding is that chaos and by virtue of that, Khorne is the most powerful. Chaos is divided, yes, but thats beacuse they literally dont see anything else as a threat other than one another in their great game (a fact well established in canon). Every other time the chaos gods have acted in a unified manner, they've won - simple as. They are the defending champions with their foot on the throat of every species one way or another and even more so, they now have the full marketing might of GW supporting them. Tzeentch really does touch all...
Gork or Mork are so far out of khornes league he'd need four gym badges a waiver from his doctor to challenge one of them to pokebattle. Orks are all powerfully psychic, and are the most numerous race in the galaxy, so their gods are ridiculously OP. One of them (mork I believe) took on all four of the chaos deities, and made a mockery of all four of them.
Hey, people took the Horus Heresy fables seriously too, and now there is an entire separate game dedicated to that gak. If I have to deal with the Primarch myths taken seriously they you'll have to deal with the Eldar myths being taken seriously too!
How do you know that crimson? maybe the eldar took millions of years to fight off the enslaver plague, we just dont know.
Sure, maybe it took some effort. But the fact remains that the Eldar (somehow) dealt with the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't or wouldn't.
And yes, any site that brings a lot of sources together to try to get a good idea of what happened is a good source of lore, dont you use lexicanum?
It is handy, but probably better to take that sort of thing with a rain of salt. It is a lot of scattered tales from over the years, containing intentional and unintentional retcons presented together like they would form a coherent and concurrent narrative, while they really don't.
Thats not remotely the same Crimson, we have first person and first hand accounts of the primarchs now, so we can see what was myth and what was true, so no, I dont have to take the Eldar alegories seriously
I can see how the Eldar dealt with the Enslavers eventually, while the Necrons could simply have assumed the Enslavers would kill off the minor races, so many reason why they could have gone into hiding, the tiny threat of the Eldar isnt one of them though.
Thats not what the link you were given is like though is it, you were given citations and quotes from reddit, so its credible, the site doesnt matter as long as the source is good.
Lance845 wrote: Any source that is a collection of citations to support the information is infinitly more reliable then some guy on dakka who is claiming that eldar were the greatest and won the war in heaven. Not even a question.
Those citations are correct, but the overall narrative built from there is speculation. Eldar did not 'win' the War in Heaven (well, Khaine did), but the Necrons didn't win either. And ultimately it was the Necrons which went hiding.
The orks and eldar still exist today because they were so weak back then that they were not worth exterminating. On the other hand all the other warrior races the old ones used dont exist anymore. Because the necrons wiped them from the galaxy.
Yet Eldar overcame the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't. Do you realise that at time Eldar had several warp gods on their side? Do you think Necrons would beat Nurgle or Khorne? It is probably the fact that the Eldar gods fought eachoter, which stopped them from annihilating the Necrons altogether.
Lance845 wrote: Any source that is a collection of citations to support the information is infinitly more reliable then some guy on dakka who is claiming that eldar were the greatest and won the war in heaven. Not even a question.
Those citations are correct, but the overall narrative built from there is speculation. Eldar did not 'win' the War in Heaven (well, Khaine did), but the Necrons didn't win either. And ultimately it was the Necrons which went hiding.
The orks and eldar still exist today because they were so weak back then that they were not worth exterminating. On the other hand all the other warrior races the old ones used dont exist anymore. Because the necrons wiped them from the galaxy.
Yet Eldar overcame the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't. Do you realise that at time Eldar had several warp gods on their side? Do you think Necrons would beat Nurgle or Khorne? It is probably the fact that the Eldar gods fought eachoter, which stopped them from annihilating the Necrons altogether.
Necrons won the war, not sure how you think otherwise, Eldar were SURVIVORS, not winners.
Eldar also likely SURVIVED enslavers too, you say they had several warp gods on their side, I say they had several powerful Eldar warriors that were later interpreted at gods, and funnily enough you cant prove otherwise
Lance845 wrote: Any source that is a collection of citations to support the information is infinitly more reliable then some guy on dakka who is claiming that eldar were the greatest and won the war in heaven. Not even a question.
Those citations are correct, but the overall narrative built from there is speculation. Eldar did not 'win' the War in Heaven (well, Khaine did), but the Necrons didn't win either. And ultimately it was the Necrons which went hiding.
The orks and eldar still exist today because they were so weak back then that they were not worth exterminating. On the other hand all the other warrior races the old ones used dont exist anymore. Because the necrons wiped them from the galaxy.
Yet Eldar overcame the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't. Do you realise that at time Eldar had several warp gods on their side? Do you think Necrons would beat Nurgle or Khorne? It is probably the fact that the Eldar gods fought eachoter, which stopped them from annihilating the Necrons altogether.
Except the necrons never went hiding. They DID win the war in heaven and then the battle against the c'tan after.khaine didnt win gak.
The enslavers were not a problem for the necrons. The thing about having your souls devourered by the c'tan with bio transference is it basiacally makes you immune to psychic parasites who were attacking psychic races. Which the necrotyre were not (as far as anyone can tell). And the necrons cannot be.
That's not remotely the same Crimson, we have first person and first hand accounts of the primarchs now, so we can see what was myth and what was true, so no, I dont have to take the Eldar alegories seriously
They're literally all stories some people in England made up. The format in which they're written really doesn't affect how 'real' the events are. There are 'first hand accounts' of a lot of historiacal things that blatantly are not true. Marco Polo describes seeing dragons. Hell, you can find first hand accounts of ghosts and aliens from the internet right now!
I can see how the Eldar dealt with the Enslavers eventually, while the Necrons could simply have assumed the Enslavers would kill off the minor races, so many reason why they could have gone into hiding, the tiny threat of the Eldar isnt one of them though.
Frankly, the whole thing doesn't make any sense. The Necrons could beat the Old Ones and then kill the C'Tans, yet couldn't deal with the Enslavers while the supposedly insignificant Eldar could. The whole Necron side account of the events really sound like some after the fact justification of why you 'really won', and totally just chose to take a nap for reasons. "You can't fire me, I quit!" Sure, buddy...
Thats not what the link you were given is like though is it, you were given citations and quotes from reddit, so its credible, the site doesnt matter as long as the source is good.
Sure, the citations are accurate, but the narrative created upon them is speculation.
They did. For 60 million yeas. You gotta be pretty damn scared to do that.
They DID win the war in heaven and then the battle against the c'tan after.khaine didnt win gak.
They won, and then just decided to go hiding for no reason... Sure...
And Khaine won the War in Heaven by defeating Vaul. Khaine also fought the Yngir (C'tan). Perhaps that's how the Necrons were able to backstab the C'tan, they were weakened from fighting Khaine.
The enslavers were not a problem for the necrons. The thing about having your souls devourered by the c'tan with bio transference is it basiacally makes you immune to psychic parasites who were attacking psychic races. Which the necrotyre were not (as far as anyone can tell). And the necrons cannot be.
Right. So they were not afraid of the Enslavers, must be that they were afraid of the Eldar then!
Still cannon, plus necrons also have black holes, starkillers, can turn off fundamental forces of nature, like the strong nuclear force. Here is a good break down of the kind of abilities the necrons can bring to bear:
I am quite sorry, I can not endure the video. The production of it is very sloppy. The person reading the script needs less liquid in his mouth, and better pronounciation. The flow of the sentences are staccato, with unatural pauses in the reading. I think this might be a by-product of the script being written for reaidng purposed, and not sound tested by being read aloud before putting the finishing strokes on it. I will give credit where credit it due, the pictures in the video are nice. And the person who made the video probably has very little experience making them. In that case, cudos for going out and actually producing something. A brave step in a bold new direction, that I whole heartedly endorce. But to come full circle, I can not listen to it.
Thanks for the link though, the gesture was nice. Discusison power level when the necrons have the Cellestial Orrey makes little sence. Even the nids they can scorch earth tactics to get rid of. If I remember corecly, one of them has a blueprint for shutting the warp off and killing of every being with a soul. (The proto project was the pylons on cadia.) Anyway, that are my thoughts on the subject.
Those citations are correct, but the overall narrative built from there is speculation. Eldar did not 'win' the War in Heaven (well, Khaine did), but the Necrons didn't win either. And ultimately it was the Necrons which went hiding.
The necrons wanted to wipe out the old ones, do you see any of those still around? Then the necrons wanted to defeat the C'Tan, since they can't be destroyed (not without great cost anyway), they broke them into bite sized chunks, imprisoned and enslaved them. I'd say the necrons achieved everything they wanted to in the old war, well everything except getting their bodies back after they realized immortality is kind of a bad deal anyway.
Yet Eldar overcame the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't. Do you realise that at time Eldar had several warp gods on their side? Do you think Necrons would beat Nurgle or Khorne? It is probably the fact that the Eldar gods fought eacother, which stopped them from annihilating the Necrons altogether.
We don't know how the eldar beat the enslaver plague, and since the enslavers are still around it seems likely that they didn't beat them. Given how the enslavers operate I suspect the eldar just made it impossible for the plague to spread further and waited them out. After the first host, The enslavers needed to be near a psychers to start the process over, so once they ran out of host they probably travelled the webway to a new worlds. The eldar could have blocked off sections of the webway (which we know they can do because they tried to stop the necrons during their incursions into the webway) and without new hosts, the enslaver plague eventually peters out on its own. There is a certain amusement in that for me, the eldar basically doing the same thing the necrons did but lamer.
Also, the necrons knew that the eldar would kill themselves off, why bother fighting them and the enslaver plague, when one issue would solve the other and then solve itself. To add to the list of people who don't like the elder, The Eldar gods don't even like the eldar, since it was prophesied that they would kill themselves and bring about a being that would devour the pantheon, which is why khaine wanted to kill them all. You know who else didn't like them, The old ones, even in the eldar lore the old ones are like "Oy Vey, what did we just do", and cut off contact from the eldar, hid in the webways, and created more reliable races like the Krorks. Imagine when your creator thinks the orks are a better race than you are. It even seems like the GW lore team is on team not eldar, since they basically said that the only way for the eldar to save themselves is mass suicide.
The necrons wanted to wipe out the old ones, do you see any of those still around? Then the necrons wanted to defeat the C'Tan, since they can't be destroyed (not without great cost anyway), they broke them into bite sized chunks, imprisoned and enslaved them. I'd say the necrons achieved everything they wanted to in the old war, well everything except getting their bodies back after they realized immortality is kind of a bad deal anyway.
They won and then went hiding. How does that make any sense?
We don't know how the eldar beat the enslaver plague, and since the enslavers are still around it seems likely that they didn't beat them. Given how the enslavers operate I suspect the eldar just made it impossible for the plague to spread further and waited them out. After the first host, The enslavers needed to be near a psychers to start the process over, so once they ran out of host they probably travelled the webway to a new worlds. The eldar could have blocked off sections of the webway (which we know they can do because they tried to stop the necrons during their incursions into the webway) and without new hosts, the enslaver plague eventually peters out on its own. There is a certain amusement in that for me, the eldar basically doing the same thing the necrons did but lamer.
Well, whatever Eldar did with the Enslavers worked well enough that the Eldar could continue living their lives and building their empire.
Also, the necrons knew that the eldar would kill themselves off, why bother fighting them and the enslaver plague, when one issue would solve the other and then solve itself. To add to the list of people who don't like the elder, The Eldar gods don't even like the eldar, since it was prophesied that they would kill themselves and bring about a being that would devour the pantheon, which is why khaine wanted to kill them all. You know who else didn't like them, The old ones, even in the eldar lore the old ones are like "Oy Vey, what did we just do", and cut off contact from the eldar, hid in the webways, and created more reliable races like the Krorks. Imagine when your creator thinks the orks are a better race than you are. It even seems like the GW lore team is on team not eldar, since they basically said that the only way for the eldar to save themselves is mass suicide.
Sure, at this point the Eldar are pretty much fethed. Then again, they kinda ruled the galaxy for 60 million years, so I'd say they had a pretty decent run!
pm713 wrote: What? That makes no sense. The Eldar and Orks were still around and both had the capacity to take control of the galaxy. Why on earth would you then leave them to it?
The only reason for Necrons to sleep is because they lost their war for some reason.
Welcome to 5th ed necron retcon. It doesn't make sense.
The necrons should have continued and wiped out their rivals instead of sleeping. That would be the logical thing to do.
Apparently they were weakened when they betrayed the gods, but that's also dumb, because why would the gods allow themselves to be betrayed, and why destroy your best weapon when there are still enemies to kill.
Pre retcon the great sleep made sense, as there was an enslaver plague. Whilst normally necrons wouldn't be bothered by a race of creatures that preyed on psykers, it was killing the C'tan's food source, so they had to go into hibernation to wait for the plague to be over.
Heres a question. If the necrons ran cause they were afraid of the eldar, how come the eldar didnt wipe them all out in their sleep over the next few million years?
Lance845 wrote: Heres a question. If the necrons ran cause they were afraid of the eldar, how come the eldar didnt wipe them all out in their sleep over the next few million years?
Too busy being the edgelords of 40k, they couldn't fit in xenocide into their busy schedule of self spank, circle spank, complaining no one understands them, cutting themselves, and time traveling to get linkin park LPs.
The Old Ones and their cannon fodder races got their asses handed to them in the War in Heaven. The only thing that saved the Eldar (and Orkz, Hrud, etc) was the Silent King's revolt against the C'Tan, which shattered the C'tan and weakened the Necrons. Hence, their 65 million year long nap and the Silent King's self-imposed exile, allowing the Eldar free reign in the galaxy.
'We totally could have beaten you, but we decided to take a nap instead.'
Likely story, bro!
The Old Ones were finished. What the Necrons/C'Tan didn't destroy, the weakened Old One weres finished off when the Enslavers (and other warp-based xenos) discovered an easy meal. Most intelligent life in the galaxy had been wiped out in the war. The remaining Orks were running amok. The Necrons did what they set out to do: Take revenge on the Old Ones.
The Great Sleep was untaken, on orders from the Silent King, for two reasons:
1. He wanted to undo biotransference. To do that, you need a compatable organic race to start with. There were no more around. Other than the Necrons, C'Tan shards, and the survivors among the Old Ones' engineered races, all sapient life in the galaxy had been wiped out.
2. Even after the massive backstabbing among the C'Tan, they were still formidable. The Necrons took a serious beating bringing them down. The Eldar survivors were busy running around, staking "We totally made this. Do not steal" signs on anything left behind by the Old Ones. As mentioned before, the Orks were having a grand old time (i.e. raising hell) without the Old Ones holding them back. The galaxy, and the Necrons themselves, were in no shape to support more pointless wars with the Old One's minions. That would defeat the Silent King's ultimate goal (undoing biotranference).
Thus, the Great Sleep took place, with the Necrons hibernating until a time when the galaxy would be teeming with life again. And now the Necrons are slowly waking up after 60 million years, although everything hasn't gone totally to plan. If it had, everybody would be screwed. And everybody might still be screwed if the Silent King, returning from exile to warn of the approaching Tyranids, somehow manages to unite the squabbling Dynasties and complete the awakening.
Lance845 wrote: Heres a question. If the necrons ran cause they were afraid of the eldar, how come the eldar didnt wipe them all out in their sleep over the next few million years?
Probably because the Eldar were legitimately scared of the Necrons too, and didn't want to risk waking them up. Neither side wanted to continue fighting.
Yeah, the third ed codex explicitly states that while stars were nourishing, they tasted bland to the C'tan, and living organisms had much more flavor. In other words, humans are junk food to the C'tan.
Pink Horror wrote: The Tyranids travel between galaxies. Everyone else is confined to the Milky Way. It's no contest.
There's not really any reason the other races can't go to other galaxies either though.
With the ability to make lightspeed huggers (ships that can go 99% of the speed of light), and the time scales of the fluff, you could have made multiple trips between the galaxies of the local group. Andromeda is only 2.5 million light years away, even discounting the inertialess drives (which let necrons travel much faster than light) there is no reason why the necrons couldn't have gone to andromeda, spent ten or twenty million years exterminating all life there, and made it back to the milky way in time to take a nice restful 25 million year nap.
In fact there is a lot of fan cannon that the old ones did exactly that, because the Tyranids bear a striking resemblance to certain creatures from the milky way that were present long before the hive fleets reached the milky way. Could be a coincidence, or it could be the old ones grabbed them, went to a nearby galaxy, made the tyranids, wiped out a galaxy or two in preparation, and then sent them to finish the war in heaven. 60 million years is a bonkers amount of time.
pm713 wrote: I always preferred the idea it was just Tyranids who'd been to the galaxy before.
Yup, this is just them following a kind of predatory migration pattern. Following the food as it appears. The galaxy gets hit and sentient life gets wiped out then on to the next galaxy tht draws them in.
Per Master of mankind, The old ones got the construction material used in the webways from outside the galaxy. Then there is pharos as well which appears to be a tyranid style biomechanical thing apparently created by the old ones. So the old ones tyranid connection isn't as far fetched as it first appears.
To be fair the people he was talking too probably would not have known what wraithbone is, so it's possible that's what he meant but misattributed the origin. However he is the Emperor, as a character he is held to a pretty high standard of in world knowledge, and was good enough with the web way to make a new entrance to it.
Pretty sure some fluff said something about the Old Ones intergalactic network being breached during the War in Heaven. Okay, quite old. Third Edition Necron Codex, page 26. Not sure if newer stuff mentions them being intergalactic. As for what the Webway is actually made of I have no idea. It's possible different parts were constructed from different materials. Maybe the Eldar can't repair it using the same materials as the Old Ones had?
Semper wrote: My general understanding is that chaos and by virtue of that, Khorne is the most powerful. Chaos is divided, yes, but thats beacuse they literally dont see anything else as a threat other than one another in their great game (a fact well established in canon). Every other time the chaos gods have acted in a unified manner, they've won - simple as. They are the defending champions with their foot on the throat of every species one way or another and even more so, they now have the full marketing might of GW supporting them. Tzeentch really does touch all...
Gork or Mork are so far out of khornes league he'd need four gym badges a waiver from his doctor to challenge one of them to pokebattle. Orks are all powerfully psychic, and are the most numerous race in the galaxy, so their gods are ridiculously OP. One of them (mork I believe) took on all four of the chaos deities, and made a mockery of all four of them.
Any source for me to read? Ive heard that tale before but never seen anything to back it up.
Semper wrote: My general understanding is that chaos and by virtue of that, Khorne is the most powerful. Chaos is divided, yes, but thats beacuse they literally dont see anything else as a threat other than one another in their great game (a fact well established in canon). Every other time the chaos gods have acted in a unified manner, they've won - simple as. They are the defending champions with their foot on the throat of every species one way or another and even more so, they now have the full marketing might of GW supporting them. Tzeentch really does touch all...
Gork or Mork are so far out of khornes league he'd need four gym badges a waiver from his doctor to challenge one of them to pokebattle. Orks are all powerfully psychic, and are the most numerous race in the galaxy, so their gods are ridiculously OP. One of them (mork I believe) took on all four of the chaos deities, and made a mockery of all four of them.
Any source for me to read? Ive heard that tale before but never seen anything to back it up.
7th ed codex mentions it, along with some earlier fluff I'm having a hard time tracking down:
Gork and Mork are divine powerhouses, deities so strong they are never truly defeated. They simply shrug off the attacks of other gods with a raucous laugh. Gork grins, bares his long teeth, and lands a mighty blow on his adversary’s head with a spiked club the size of a comet. Mork, always the sneaky one, waits until his foe isn’t looking before clobbering him with a low blow.
The other gods can't even hurt them, but since it comes from the Ork Codex, and the Orks think quite highly of themselves, I suppose it would be more reliable if it came from a neutral third party.
Pink Horror wrote: The Tyranids travel between galaxies. Everyone else is confined to the Milky Way. It's no contest.
Actually orks are also found outside of the milky way. This is mentioned in both the 3rd ed ork codex and 6ed rulebook. There's this DAoT probe that's been travelling dark space for some 20.000 years and continues to send information back to the Admech. No matter how far it goes it keeps finding signs of orks.
I always liked the idea that the Tyranids are a galaxy wide swarm of locus that wreck galaxies. However, they'd never come across a galaxy as militaristic as the milky ways with actual gods hanging around and wrestling for dominance. Not to mention deamons and necrons. The locust come to find opposition beyond what they'd ever before imagined. feeding suddenly got very difficult.
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/80kpki/a_coherent_timeline_of_the_war_in_heaven_part_i/ I read through this. It seems like a pretty legit timeline breakdown. I do find it strange that orks are not mentioned anywhere except for the beginning in the form of krorks. Is there no sources on ork activity during the war in heaven? I guess he Eldars are somewhat narcissistic and only record their own history/myths. According to this things did not go great for the necrons and they went to sleep because of the enslaver plauge, not wanting to deal with it. The Eldar probably didn't go around wrecking their tomb worlds because they where scared of awakening the C'tan. Also at some point between the war in heaven and the birth of slaanesh the big 3 become the dominant warp force. We have very little info on how that came to be since the eldar lore mostly concern their own gods. My point is that it's very likely that the eldar actually had their hands full with the big 3 corrupting their society even before they gave birth to Slaanesh.
Edit: About inhabing other galaxies there's no hard fluff on it but very likely that DAoT humans or ancient eldars went to other galaxies with cryo statis ships or something. When the age of strife or men of iron rebellion hit some might have gone "screw this, next galaxy"
The other gods can't even hurt them, but since it comes from the Ork Codex, and the Orks think quite highly of themselves, I suppose it would be more reliable if it came from a neutral third party.
Just like the stuff about Necrons and C'tan being so über is from Necron codices, so it is unreliable!
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Pretty sure some fluff said something about the Old Ones intergalactic network being breached during the War in Heaven. Okay, quite old. Third Edition Necron Codex, page 26. Not sure if newer stuff mentions them being intergalactic. As for what the Webway is actually made of I have no idea. It's possible different parts were constructed from different materials. Maybe the Eldar can't repair it using the same materials as the Old Ones had?
That dumbness was the Dolmen Gates. Hopefully it's gone forever now.
The other gods can't even hurt them, but since it comes from the Ork Codex, and the Orks think quite highly of themselves, I suppose it would be more reliable if it came from a neutral third party.
Just like the stuff about Necrons and C'tan being so über is from Necron codices, so it is unreliable!
The difference being the necrons aren't exactly boastful or big fans of themselves or the C'Tan. The necrons were describing an enemies capabilities, and we have the power of C'Tan verified from third parties such as the eldar who described them as gods.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Pretty sure some fluff said something about the Old Ones intergalactic network being breached during the War in Heaven. Okay, quite old. Third Edition Necron Codex, page 26. Not sure if newer stuff mentions them being intergalactic. As for what the Webway is actually made of I have no idea. It's possible different parts were constructed from different materials. Maybe the Eldar can't repair it using the same materials as the Old Ones had?
That dumbness was the Dolmen Gates. Hopefully it's gone forever now.
Unless I'm completely missing my mark (always a possibility) the startide nexus sure sounds like a Dolmen gate.
Grimgold wrote: and we have the power of C'Tan verified from third parties such as the eldar who described them as gods.
Eldar describe them as monsters who were fought and defeated by Eldar Gods.
Except we have the current fluff, models, and rules to support it. Again, this isn't necron myths and legends. Every Necron around today was around then. The C'tan are star gods. The flayer was killed. Necron tech is beyond all others comprehension. We don't need necron sources to tell us that. Cadia only resisted the eye of terror because of necron tech. Farsight is only still alive because of a necron life force stealing sword. Nobody else can create portal that allow for instantaneous travel from one world to another and strap it to the bottom of a single man fighter jet. Or place a portal to the inside of a star on the palm of their hand to use as a flame thrower.
We know the necron stories are accurate because we have the actual evidence to support it. Unlike eldar myths.
Except we have the current fluff, models, and rules to support it. Again, this isn't necron myths and legends. Every Necron around today was around then. The C'tan are star gods. The flayer was killed. Necron tech is beyond all others comprehension. We don't need necron sources to tell us that. Cadia only resisted the eye of terror because of necron tech. Farsight is only still alive because of a necron life force stealing sword. Nobody else can create portal that allow for instantaneous travel from one world to another and strap it to the bottom of a single man fighter jet. Or place a portal to the inside of a star on the palm of their hand to use as a flame thrower.
We know the necron stories are accurate because we have the actual evidence to support it. Unlike eldar myths.
No one is contesting the fact that Necrons have some pretty decent tech. And that the C'tan can be destroyed only lends credence to the idea that the Eldar gods could successfully defeat them.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Pretty sure some fluff said something about the Old Ones intergalactic network being breached during the War in Heaven. Okay, quite old. Third Edition Necron Codex, page 26. Not sure if newer stuff mentions them being intergalactic. As for what the Webway is actually made of I have no idea. It's possible different parts were constructed from different materials. Maybe the Eldar can't repair it using the same materials as the Old Ones had?
That dumbness was the Dolmen Gates. Hopefully it's gone forever now.
No that was from 3rd Edition, before the Dolmen Gates.
Except we have the current fluff, models, and rules to support it. Again, this isn't necron myths and legends. Every Necron around today was around then. The C'tan are star gods. The flayer was killed. Necron tech is beyond all others comprehension. We don't need necron sources to tell us that. Cadia only resisted the eye of terror because of necron tech. Farsight is only still alive because of a necron life force stealing sword. Nobody else can create portal that allow for instantaneous travel from one world to another and strap it to the bottom of a single man fighter jet. Or place a portal to the inside of a star on the palm of their hand to use as a flame thrower.
We know the necron stories are accurate because we have the actual evidence to support it. Unlike eldar myths.
No one is contesting the fact that Necrons have some pretty decent tech. And that the C'tan can be destroyed only lends credence to the idea that the Eldar gods could successfully defeat them.
Except that the Eldar gods never did. The only people to actually defeat the C'Tan are the C'Tan themselves and the Necrons. Other people have fought C'tan SHARDS. But not full on C'tan.
Except that the Eldar gods never did. The only people to actually defeat the C'Tan are the C'Tan themselves and the Necrons. Other people have fought C'tan SHARDS. But not full on C'tan.
Vaul pushed the Void Dragon back. Khaine beat the Nightbringer. If they were out fighting the Eldar it's likely it was before they were sharded.
The Nightbringer supposedly then put the fear of death into most living things but that part beats any of Matt Ward's stuff in terms of ludicrousness.
Except that the Eldar gods never did. The only people to actually defeat the C'Tan are the C'Tan themselves and the Necrons.
Khaine did.
White Dwarf 273 wrote:
There was a time when the Eldar were not driven by fear, and did not live their lives in mortal apprehension of the dark fate that awaited them upon death. A warrior could meet his foeman without a thought for his mortal shell; his soul would live on, reborn as a phoenix from the flame.
In that manner did the Eldar join their gods to wage war against the Yngir, the immortal star-spawn that plagued the universe with their eternal thirst and undying warriors. Their minions, the silvered host, parted like a sea before Khaine's wrath, and his followers, the most battle-hardened of all, blazed a flaming path across the galaxy.
Ulthanash and Eldanesh, noble kings of their houses, fought at Khaine's side. Lanthrilaq the Swift and Jaeriela Thrice-Blessed led their peoples, and none could stand before them.
Then came Kaelis Ra, the Death-bringer. Its rampage stained the stars with blood, and none could stand against it, for it wielded the power of death itself. Populations fell before its scythe, its very gaze slew even the greatest of Eldar heroes. Those that died lost everything, even their souls.
But the gods of the Eldar had strengths other than force of arms. The greatest among the Soul-Dancers had begun to convince the C'tan to turn their hunger inward, to consume their brethren in unholy feasts of star-flesh. Kaelis Ra took its blade to its kin, butchering them without mercy as it had the sons of Isha.
Whilst the Death-bringer sought ever darker ways to slake its unquenchable thirst, Khaine was not idle. He struck a bargain with Vaul the Smith-God; in exchange for Kurnous' and Isha's release from Khaine's dungeons, Vaul would forge one hundred swords for Khaine's war against the Yngir. Thus were born the Swords of Vaul; the Blade-Wraiths.
Khaine led his people to war once more, his rage incandescent, the remnants of his army aflame with the heat of vengeance. A hundred Eldar, each armed with a Blade-Wraith, faced a horde of silvered Necrontyr so vast the horizon glittered with metal bodies in every direction. Yet they knew no dread.
The Eldar fought in a great circle, the Swords of Vaul flashing, and the Necrontyr could not penetrate their defence. The soul-might contained within the swords invigorated their wielders and every blow smashed apart an unholy foe. Khaine was unstoppable, and his warriors fought with the knowledge that their god was pleased.
The battle lasted seven days and seven nights before the Eldar began to fall. The Yngir's servants had found a weak spot in the circle; Lanthrilaq the Swift was tiring, his face pale, his imperfect sword dull and blunt. The ring of warriors buckled and broke, and the ground shook as Khaine bellowed his anger. Vaul had cheated him; one of the swords was lifeless.
From the ground beneath them burst Kaelis Ra, the Nightbringer, and the Eldar fell back for they knew their doom was at hand. With a gesture, Kaelis Ra slew all those near it. With a glance, it condemned the souls of great warriors to an eternity of dust. With a great roar, Khaine levelled his spear and charged.
Scythe and spear clashed over a mound of corpses in a struggle that tore the skies asunder. Khaine's speed and skill was breathtaking, but the Nightbringer was a being of shadow and the Spear of Khaine could not find its mark. Kaelis Ra let its foe exhaust his rage with the patience of death.
Without warning, the Nightbringer swung mightily with his scythe, aiming for Khaine's throat. But Khaine had heeded the counsel of the Laughing God well. As the Nightbringer's form became solid to deliver its blow, Khaine lunged, the tip of his spear driving clean through the Yngir's chest.
Kaelis Ra burst apart in an explosion of silvered shards that nearly cleft Khaine in two as the Yngir's essence tore free of physical form. The silvered warriors around him fell to the earth as the impact spread ever outward, returning to the ground from whence they came. Soon, only Khaine remained, howling his victory.
But victory came at a price. Shards of the Yngir's flesh, driven deep into Khaine's body by the cataclysmic demise of his foe, melted in the fires of the War God's wrath. The silver poison flowed into his bloodstream, forever tainting his physical incarnation with the aspect of the Reaper.
Kaelis Ra cannot truly die, for it is death incarnate. Raging at its defeat, its quintessence howled throughout space, entering every one of the Eldar race and cursing them with the terror of the grave. Thus it was that the seed of the Eldar's downfall was sown, and ultimately, the way of reincarnation was closed to them forever.'
— transcription of the story of 'The Birth of Fear', a Harlequin dance
Wow that story is pure allegory, khaine the warp God cannot enter the psysical plaine, like all warp gods, so quite likely it was an eldar warrior possessed by khaine, the swords were likely extremely advanced guns with shield generators and powered by soul stones of some type, likely even warp based weapons.
Khaine being tainted is again, just an allegory for the eldar race becoming more martial and thus the emotions changing how they perceived the god of war to look, I could go on but either way we know that the eldar gods cannot enter the material plane so the story is just that, a story, millions of years old and interpreted over and over again, tiny grain of truth blown way out of proportions.
Formosa wrote: Wow that story is pure allegory, khaine the warp God cannot enter the psysical plaine, like all warp gods, so quite likely it was an eldar warrior possessed by khaine, the swords were likely extremely advanced guns with shield generators and powered by soul stones of some type, likely even warp based weapons.
Khaine being tainted is again, just an allegory for the eldar race becoming more martial and thus the emotions changing how they perceived the god of war to look, I could go on but either way we know that the eldar gods cannot enter the material plane so the story is just that, a story, millions of years old and interpreted over and over again, tiny grain of truth blown way out of proportions.
They could enter material plane in ancient times. Asuryan eventually changed that. And even after that they could manifest part of their power, as avatars. Also, griping about swords! Do you even 40K? Everybody uses swords all the time. And regardless, the main point is that in one way or another Khaine and the Eldar kicked Nightbringer's arse.
Formosa wrote: Wow that story is pure allegory, khaine the warp God cannot enter the psysical plaine, like all warp gods, so quite likely it was an eldar warrior possessed by khaine, the swords were likely extremely advanced guns with shield generators and powered by soul stones of some type, likely even warp based weapons.
Khaine being tainted is again, just an allegory for the eldar race becoming more martial and thus the emotions changing how they perceived the god of war to look, I could go on but either way we know that the eldar gods cannot enter the material plane so the story is just that, a story, millions of years old and interpreted over and over again, tiny grain of truth blown way out of proportions.
They could enter material plane in ancient times. Asuryan eventually changed that. And even after that they could manifest part of their power, as avatars. Also, griping about swords! Do you even 40K? Everybody uses swords all the time. And regardless, the main point is that in one way or another Khaine and the Eldar kicked Nightbringer's arse.
Yay more alegory passed off as fact, "asuryan" stopped the gods from being able to enter the mortal plane, sure, the chaos gods are gonna take real notice of that im sure, after having killed asuryan during slaaneshs birth.
I have no issue with them being swords, I just dont think they are, thats the thing with alegories, they can be interpreted in many many ways, after all, Eldar are well known for giving fancy names to things that have nothing to do with what they actually are (to humans), such as the Talismans of Vaul, large space ships designed to kill C'Tan, and this is what I think is meant by the spear of Khaine defeating the Nightbringer, not literally Khaine, but some advanced tech that dealt the killing blow.
Main point it, nothing the Eldar claim can be trusted, especially their embelished made up myths 65 million years after the fact, that are wrapped up in wild interpretation.
pm713 wrote: He stopped the Eldar gods. He didn't do anything to the Chaos gods. Plus isn't the lore they weren't that self aware at the time?
That's kind of my point, if it were true, the chaos gods would have done it, also given the tremendous amount of warp energy required to just support a greater daemon in the material plane, a god would require so much more, it doesn't add up.
Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.
pm713 wrote: Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.
Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.
Formosa wrote: Wow that story is pure allegory, khaine the warp God cannot enter the psysical plaine, like all warp gods, so quite likely it was an eldar warrior possessed by khaine, the swords were likely extremely advanced guns with shield generators and powered by soul stones of some type, likely even warp based weapons.
Khaine being tainted is again, just an allegory for the eldar race becoming more martial and thus the emotions changing how they perceived the god of war to look, I could go on but either way we know that the eldar gods cannot enter the material plane so the story is just that, a story, millions of years old and interpreted over and over again, tiny grain of truth blown way out of proportions.
They could enter material plane in ancient times. Asuryan eventually changed that. And even after that they could manifest part of their power, as avatars. Also, griping about swords! Do you even 40K? Everybody uses swords all the time. And regardless, the main point is that in one way or another Khaine and the Eldar kicked Nightbringer's arse.
Maybe, the chronology of it is up in the air, if it was after nightbringer was sharded, then yeah no kidding.
Tyran wrote: The Eldar at their height were quite bonkers, it could have been possible for them to provide their gods with the means needed to breach real space.
Even if so, the war in heaven was not the eldar at their hieght. They didnt reach their hieght until long after the necrons went to sleep and the eldar had only orks to fight for supremacy.
pm713 wrote: Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.
Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.
The Avatar is pretty clearly literal pieces of the actual god Khaine. Different to things like Bloodthirsters and Demon Princes.
pm713 wrote: Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.
Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.
The Avatar is pretty clearly literal pieces of the actual god Khaine. Different to things like Bloodthirsters and Demon Princes.
Wrong, An Avatar of Khaine is just a deamon of the respective god... Khaine, a Bloodthirster is an Avatar of Khorne, the manner in which they are brought into the material plane is either identical, a possessed mortal in the case of the Avatar of Khaine AND Khorne, or slightly different in the case that Greater Deamons do not always need a mortal to possess.
Avatars are literally the embodiment of their gods will on the material plane, Primarchs are Avatars of the Emperor for example (from the Ecclesiarchys point of view)
pm713 wrote: Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.
Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.
The Avatar is pretty clearly literal pieces of the actual god Khaine. Different to things like Bloodthirsters and Demon Princes.
Wrong, An Avatar of Khaine is just a deamon of the respective god... Khaine, a Bloodthirster is an Avatar of Khorne, the manner in which they are brought into the material plane is either identical, a possessed mortal in the case of the Avatar of Khaine AND Khorne, or slightly different in the case that Greater Deamons do not always need a mortal to possess.
Avatars are literally the embodiment of their gods will on the material plane, Primarchs are Avatars of the Emperor for example (from the Ecclesiarchys point of view)
Bloodthirsters have seperate identities from Khorne. Avatars of Khaine are Khaine, they speak as Khaine to whoever they choose.
pm713 wrote: Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.
Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.
The Avatar is pretty clearly literal pieces of the actual god Khaine. Different to things like Bloodthirsters and Demon Princes.
Wrong, An Avatar of Khaine is just a deamon of the respective god... Khaine, a Bloodthirster is an Avatar of Khorne, the manner in which they are brought into the material plane is either identical, a possessed mortal in the case of the Avatar of Khaine AND Khorne, or slightly different in the case that Greater Deamons do not always need a mortal to possess.
Avatars are literally the embodiment of their gods will on the material plane, Primarchs are Avatars of the Emperor for example (from the Ecclesiarchys point of view)
Bloodthirsters have seperate identities from Khorne. Avatars of Khaine are Khaine, they speak as Khaine to whoever they choose.
Again, wrong, Avatars of Khaine are just greater deamons of Khaine, in exactly the same manner as a keeper of secrets is a greater deamon of slaanesh, both are shards of the greater gods power but not literally the greater god itself, they embody everything that makes up the greater god being AVATARS of its will and "personality", thus far we dont know if each Avatar of Khaine has a distinct personality from the rest, we have also never seen them communicate on the same level as greater deamons of the various gods (though I assume they can).
In short Avatars of Khaine are NOT Khaine, just the embodiment of Khaine.
I have no issue with them being swords, I just dont think they are, thats the thing with alegories, they can be interpreted in many many ways, after all, Eldar are well known for giving fancy names to things that have nothing to do with what they actually are (to humans), such as the Talismans of Vaul, large space ships designed to kill C'Tan, and this is what I think is meant by the spear of Khaine defeating the Nightbringer, not literally Khaine, but some advanced tech that dealt the killing blow.
Perhaps. And I think it is pretty cool interpretation. But then again, I also think that it is a cool interpretatyion that Sanguinius was just a marine who was really skilled with a jump pack, and him having wings was just a metaphor, but over the years people started to take it literally.
And considering that eve in the current 40K time there still are literal avatars of Khaine running around stabbing things to death with literal swords, I don't think that the literal interpretation of those events if far fetched either. It just is the case that Khaine was not shattered in pieces yet, and walls between the immaterium and the real world were weaker, so he probably could manifest in far more powerful form than currently.
That's kind of my point, if it were true, the chaos gods would have done it, also given the tremendous amount of warp energy required to just support a greater daemon in the material plane, a god would require so much more, it doesn't add up.
Warp was different back then. Walls were weaker, it was easier to cross over. The Eldar say that it was Asyryan who changed that. He was the King of the Eldar Gods, and probably the most powerful warp entity in the existence at the time, so maybe he could have done it. Or perhaps it was the result of the warp going weird during the War in Heaven. Or combination of the two, who knows. I kinda like Asyryan being Involved though, as it is kinda similar to how the Valar isolated Aman from the Middle-Earth.
Both are basically true. We know that daemons are slivers of a chaos god, cut free and given sentience. They are both individual entities, and a tiny fragment of their God.
Avatars are exactly this for Khaine. What likely happened in his duel with Slaanesh is he was either metaphorically smashed to pieces and forced out of the immaterium, or split himself into so many pieces to escape.
Either way, what likely happened is Khaine split himself into so many pieces and manifested them in the materium that Khaine as a warp-deity ceased to exist.
I have no issue with them being swords, I just dont think they are, thats the thing with alegories, they can be interpreted in many many ways, after all, Eldar are well known for giving fancy names to things that have nothing to do with what they actually are (to humans), such as the Talismans of Vaul, large space ships designed to kill C'Tan, and this is what I think is meant by the spear of Khaine defeating the Nightbringer, not literally Khaine, but some advanced tech that dealt the killing blow.
Perhaps. And I think it is pretty cool interpretation. But then again, I also think that it is a cool interpretatyion that Sanguinius was just a marine who was really skilled with a jump pack, and him having wings was just a metaphor, but over the years people started to take it literally.
And considering that eve in the current 40K time there still are literal avatars of Khaine running around stabbing things to death with literal swords, I don't think that the literal interpretation of those events if far fetched either. It just is the case that Khaine was not shattered in pieces yet, and walls between the immaterium and the real world were weaker, so he probably could manifest in far more powerful form than currently.
That's kind of my point, if it were true, the chaos gods would have done it, also given the tremendous amount of warp energy required to just support a greater daemon in the material plane, a god would require so much more, it doesn't add up.
Warp was different back then. Walls were weaker, it was easier to cross over. The Eldar say that it was Asyryan who changed that. He was the King of the Eldar Gods, and probably the most powerful warp entity in the existence at the time, so maybe he could have done it. Or perhaps it was the result of the warp going weird during the War in Heaven. Or combination of the two, who knows. I kinda like Asyryan being Involved though, as it is kinda similar to how the Valar isolated Aman from the Middle-Earth.
In short Avatars of Khaine are NOT Khaine, just the embodiment of Khaine.
They're shards of Khaine. Pieces of him.
Except we have first hand "in head" accounts from sanguinius himself, so we know he is what he is, so thats concrete as you can get.
Now Khaine being a mortal possessed, yep, no issue, or Khaine sending a very powerful Avatar, no issue, Literal warp god Khaine turning up, nope, not a chance in hell, its just a story from a race than likes to exagerate to the extreme.
The walls are weaker now than they have ever been, the warp covers almost half the galaxy now, so were it possible for a warp god to manifest, now would be that time, Asuyan was most likely an old one that shut out deamons and the Eldar interpreted it as their "god" doing so, still a cool story though.
Greater deamons are shards of the Chaos god they are from, soooo.... hows that any different from Avatars, if you are saying that Avatars are literally Khaine, then Bloodthirsters, Keepers, lords of change and great unclean ones are all literally the chaos gods walking in the mortal realms, rather than Avatars of those gods.
The difference is that an Avatar of Khaine is a literal piece of Khaine. It's a mini Khaine whereas Demons are formed from Chaos power but are separate being with their own intelligence. For example Skarbrand is a piece of Khorne but is also Skarbrand.
Except we have first hand "in head" accounts from sanguinius himself, so we know he is what he is, so thats concrete as you can get.
So? It's still just a story, like the Khaine stroy. If one can be allegory then can the other too. There are stories that detail what Sir Tristan was thinking before he had to fight a dragon. Do you think that dragon fighting really happened in 5th century Ireland?
Now Khaine being a mortal possessed, yep, no issue, or Khaine sending a very powerful Avatar, no issue, Literal warp god Khaine turning up, nope, not a chance in hell, its just a story from a race than likes to exagerate to the extreme.
The Eldar have pretty good understanding of the Warp stuff, better than any other race in the setting. Also, you'r making an unnecessary distinction between an avatar and the god in this instance. Warp gods probably always reside in the warp, but if such god creates a powerful vessel that is directly contolled by their consciousness, then it indeed is accurate enough to say that the god appeared in person.
The walls are weaker now than they have ever been, the warp covers almost half the galaxy now, so were it possible for a warp god to manifest, now would be that time,
Not in the same way. There are huge holes now, but it is not the same than warp and real space being closer. Furthermore, that the Chaos gods cannot do something, doesn't mean that the Eldar gods couldn't do that either. They're similar beings, but still differnt, they can have differnt abilities. Perhaps the Chaos gods are, well, too chaotic, to concentrate their might in one place like that.
Asuyan was most likely an old one that shut out deamons and the Eldar interpreted it as their "god" doing so, still a cool story though.
The Eldar gods were unequivocally warp beings. Whilst them originally being Old Ones who somehow ascended into pure warp form is an interesting theory, there really is very little support for such idea.
Greater deamons are shards of the Chaos god they are from, soooo.... hows that any different from Avatars, if you are saying that Avatars are literally Khaine, then Bloodthirsters, Keepers, lords of change and great unclean ones are all literally the chaos gods walking in the mortal realms, rather than Avatars of those gods.
Greater daemons seem to be able to have their own personalities. They have their own unique names. The avatars are not quite like that. They're really mini Khaines.
Except we have first hand "in head" accounts from sanguinius himself, so we know he is what he is, so thats concrete as you can get.
So? It's still just a story, like the Khaine stroy. If one can be allegory then can the other too. There are stories that detail what Sir Tristan was thinking before he had to fight a dragon. Do you think that dragon fighting really happened in 5th century Ireland?
Now Khaine being a mortal possessed, yep, no issue, or Khaine sending a very powerful Avatar, no issue, Literal warp god Khaine turning up, nope, not a chance in hell, its just a story from a race than likes to exagerate to the extreme.
The Eldar have pretty good understanding of the Warp stuff, better than any other race in the setting. Also, you'r making an unnecessary distinction between an avatar and the god in this instance. Warp gods probably always reside in the warp, but if such god creates a powerful vessel that is directly contolled by their consciousness, then it indeed is accurate enough to say that the god appeared in person.
The walls are weaker now than they have ever been, the warp covers almost half the galaxy now, so were it possible for a warp god to manifest, now would be that time,
Not in the same way. There are huge holes now, but it is not the same than warp and real space being closer. Furthermore, that the Chaos gods cannot do something, doesn't mean that the Eldar gods couldn't do that either. They're similar beings, but still differnt, they can have differnt abilities. Perhaps the Chaos gods are, well, too chaotic, to concentrate their might in one place like that.
Asuyan was most likely an old one that shut out deamons and the Eldar interpreted it as their "god" doing so, still a cool story though.
The Eldar gods were unequivocally warp beings. Whilst them originally being Old Ones who somehow ascended into pure warp form is an interesting theory, there really is very little support for such idea.
Greater deamons are shards of the Chaos god they are from, soooo.... hows that any different from Avatars, if you are saying that Avatars are literally Khaine, then Bloodthirsters, Keepers, lords of change and great unclean ones are all literally the chaos gods walking in the mortal realms, rather than Avatars of those gods.
Greater daemons seem to be able to have their own personalities. They have their own unique names. The avatars are not quite like that. They're really mini Khaines.
No it's not just a "story" it's a gods eye view at the innermost thoughts and feelings of a character as opposed to a "story" written by someone else thousands of years after the fact, a good example of this is the old index astartes, they are a historians look back and full of allegory and embellishments, thus unreliable, when that in universe person says Russ carved a mountain in half, we knows it's not true, we have seen what Russ can and can't do from first hand accounts, you seem to lack the ability to distinguish between historical allegorical stories, and first hand "in the mind" of the character during the events stories.
I am not making an unnecessary distinction between and avatar and a god, I am using the literal interpretation of what an avatar is, the embodiment of a god in the mortal world, Jesus was an avatar of god, some believe him to be god himself, some don't, this is the same as that, you interpret Avatars of Khaine as literally Khaine itself, I disagree, as otherwise they would not be Avatars, but stated as "Khaine" in the fluff and not "avatar"
I'd say it means the eldar "gods" could not, there is a pretty solid precedence in 40k that warp gods cannot the mortal realm, otherwise they would, there is also a solid chain of events to allow warp based entities entrance to the mortal plane, all of which contradicts the allegorical story of eldar gods walking the earth, it lacks credibility.
The eldar gods were not "unequivocally" warp beings, they could just as easily been old ones that later myth turned into warp beings, in exactly the same manner as some theories of the "warp God emperor" came about, they may have been old ones that did great deeds (like create the eldar race), were thought to be gods, died, and the belief created the warp gods after, which is how the warp works.
We don't know if Avatars of Khaine have different personalities, not enough is written about them, we know they can talk however, that's the extent of it, what we do know however is they are shards of the greater god, in exactly the same manner a greater daemon is a shard of the greater god, we also know it's a similar process to summon them, we again also know roughly what the gods are, how they are made and that every deamon is a embodiment of the greater gods personality, but that doesn't make them literally that god, but a part of it.
Isn't an avatar of Khaine just a mortal Eldar who shoved a piece of Khaine into himself? That's not really any different from a demon prince, if you think about it.
A demon prince is a mortal who was ascended to another state of being by a patron god at the cost of his humanity.
An avatar of khaine is a mortal who was ascended to another state of being by a patron god at the cost of his life, because I'm pretty sure that the Eldar dies in the process.
To me its clear then that the Avatar of Khaine isn't Khaine himself, but just a part of his power that's been used to empower a mortal.
No it's not just a "story" it's a gods eye view at the innermost thoughts and feelings of a character as opposed to a "story" written by someone else thousands of years after the fact, a good example of this is the old index astartes, they are a historians look back and full of allegory and embellishments, thus unreliable, when that in universe person says Russ carved a mountain in half, we knows it's not true, we have seen what Russ can and can't do from first hand accounts, you seem to lack the ability to distinguish between historical allegorical stories, and first hand "in the mind" of the character during the events stories.
No. There is no god's eye view. They're just different stories. They may have different format, but that doesn't affect their credibility.
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." -Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer GW
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW "There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP." -Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it." -Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library
I am not making an unnecessary distinction between and avatar and a god, I am using the literal interpretation of what an avatar is, the embodiment of a god in the mortal world, Jesus was an avatar of god, some believe him to be god himself, some don't, this is the same as that, you interpret Avatars of Khaine as literally Khaine itself, I disagree, as otherwise they would not be Avatars, but stated as "Khaine" in the fluff and not "avatar"
Current Avatars of Khaine are not full Khaine, because they're only shards of Khaine. There is no real, complete Khaine any more. But in the past there was. Avatar means god's manifestation on the mortal plane.
Wikipedia:
"Avatar literally means "descent, alight, to make one's appearance", and refers to the embodiment of the essence of a superhuman being or a deity in another form. The word also implies "to overcome, to remove, to bring down, to cross something".[3] In Hindu traditions, the "crossing or coming down" is symbolism, states Daniel Bassuk, of the divine descent from "eternity into the temporal realm, from unconditioned to the conditioned, from infinitude to finitude". An avatar, states Justin Edwards Abbott, is a saguna (with form, attributes) embodiment of the nirguna Brahman or Atman (soul)."
I'd say it means the eldar "gods" could not, there is a pretty solid precedence in 40k that warp gods cannot the mortal realm, otherwise they would, there is also a solid chain of events to allow warp based entities entrance to the mortal plane, all of which contradicts the allegorical story of eldar gods walking the earth, it lacks credibility.
They cannot do that now. They could do it back then.
The eldar gods were not "unequivocally" warp beings, they could just as easily been old ones that later myth turned into warp beings, in exactly the same manner as some theories of the "warp God emperor" came about, they may have been old ones that did great deeds (like create the eldar race), were thought to be gods, died, and the belief created the warp gods after, which is how the warp works.
That is oversimplification. Also contradicted by Liber Chaotica.
We don't know if Avatars of Khaine have different personalities, not enough is written about them, we know they can talk however, that's the extent of it, what we do know however is they are shards of the greater god, in exactly the same manner a greater daemon is a shard of the greater god, we also know it's a similar process to summon them, we again also know roughly what the gods are, how they are made and that every deamon is a embodiment of the greater gods personality, but that doesn't make them literally that god, but a part of it.
Yes, Avatars of Khaine can talk. So they can tell the Eldar about the time he kicked Nightbringer's shiny arse!
Furthermore, that Avatars have some similarities to the Greater Daemons doesn't mean they're the exact same thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Isn't an avatar of Khaine just a mortal Eldar who shoved a piece of Khaine into himself?
No it's not just a "story" it's a gods eye view at the innermost thoughts and feelings of a character as opposed to a "story" written by someone else thousands of years after the fact, a good example of this is the old index astartes, they are a historians look back and full of allegory and embellishments, thus unreliable, when that in universe person says Russ carved a mountain in half, we knows it's not true, we have seen what Russ can and can't do from first hand accounts, you seem to lack the ability to distinguish between historical allegorical stories, and first hand "in the mind" of the character during the events stories.
No. There is no god's eye view. They're just different stories. They may have different format, but that doesn't affect their credibility.
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." -Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer GW
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW "There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP." -Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it." -Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library
I am not making an unnecessary distinction between and avatar and a god, I am using the literal interpretation of what an avatar is, the embodiment of a god in the mortal world, Jesus was an avatar of god, some believe him to be god himself, some don't, this is the same as that, you interpret Avatars of Khaine as literally Khaine itself, I disagree, as otherwise they would not be Avatars, but stated as "Khaine" in the fluff and not "avatar"
Current Avatars of Khaine are not full Khaine, because they're only shards of Khaine. There is no real, complete Khaine any more. But in the past there was. Avatar means god's manifestation on the mortal plane.
Wikipedia:
"Avatar literally means "descent, alight, to make one's appearance", and refers to the embodiment of the essence of a superhuman being or a deity in another form. The word also implies "to overcome, to remove, to bring down, to cross something".[3] In Hindu traditions, the "crossing or coming down" is symbolism, states Daniel Bassuk, of the divine descent from "eternity into the temporal realm, from unconditioned to the conditioned, from infinitude to finitude". An avatar, states Justin Edwards Abbott, is a saguna (with form, attributes) embodiment of the nirguna Brahman or Atman (soul)."
I'd say it means the eldar "gods" could not, there is a pretty solid precedence in 40k that warp gods cannot the mortal realm, otherwise they would, there is also a solid chain of events to allow warp based entities entrance to the mortal plane, all of which contradicts the allegorical story of eldar gods walking the earth, it lacks credibility.
They cannot do that now. They could do it back then.
The eldar gods were not "unequivocally" warp beings, they could just as easily been old ones that later myth turned into warp beings, in exactly the same manner as some theories of the "warp God emperor" came about, they may have been old ones that did great deeds (like create the eldar race), were thought to be gods, died, and the belief created the warp gods after, which is how the warp works.
That is oversimplification. Also contradicted by Liber Chaotica.
We don't know if Avatars of Khaine have different personalities, not enough is written about them, we know they can talk however, that's the extent of it, what we do know however is they are shards of the greater god, in exactly the same manner a greater daemon is a shard of the greater god, we also know it's a similar process to summon them, we again also know roughly what the gods are, how they are made and that every deamon is a embodiment of the greater gods personality, but that doesn't make them literally that god, but a part of it.
Yes, Avatars of Khaine can talk. So they can tell the Eldar about the time he kicked Nightbringer's shiny arse!
Furthermore, that Avatars have some similarities to the Greater Daemons doesn't mean they're the exact same thing.
One day I will learn how to use multi qoute.
On with the show.
All those qoutes are irrelevent, I will say what I said about ADB regretting what he put into the first heretic, if he didnt want it taken seriously, he shouldnt have put it in the book (Ref: the missing primarchs), when you have a first person story and a 2nd person or even 3rd person historical look at something, you go with the first person story if there is a contradiction, the Heresy series are a true account of what happened in the Horus Heresy, not some person interpretation of it after the fact, the FWHH books are a look back shortly after the Heresy and the index astartes are a loooooooong lookback from the point of view of a supersticious imperial historian, so we go with the HH series as being a true rendition of the events, you may not like it, but that is how it works.
Your Eldar alegory is worse than all 3 of these, its a look back through poetic form 65 million years after the fact through the eyes of a decadent empire that believes itself to be the master race, it has a tiny grain of truth, nothing more, now if they make a first person book series from the point of view of the Eldar and it backs it up, I will believe it, until then, it has zero credibility as a source of information.
Thank you for confirming I am using the term avatar correctly, and that you are not, not sure why you would post that though
They could not do it back then, they cannot do it now, you have no evidence to back that statement up other than a single line of fluff that is pure allegory.
Yes its simplified and yes thats exactly how the warp works, as backed up by liber chaotica, which you would know if you had read it, which i very much doubt otherwise you would not have made that clearly wrong statement.
So a being that could have been "Khaine" beat the Nightbringer, once, whats your point?
They have similarities because they are the same thing, warp beings made from the warp that are manifestations of a greater god, they are literally the same thing, but derived from different species emotions, Khaine is just the Eldar Khorne, with some notable distinctions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and yes, an Avatar of Khaine is a mortal Eldar that is possessed by a greater Deamon of Khaine, thats exactly what it is.
So the people who actually write the fluff saying how it is supposed to work is irrelevant? Ok, mate...
I will say what I said about ADB regretting what he put into the first heretic, if he didnt want it taken seriously, he shouldnt have put it in the book (Ref: the missing primarchs), when you have a first person story and a 2nd person or even 3rd person historical look at something, you go with the first person story if there is a contradiction, the Heresy series are a true account of what happened in the Horus Heresy, not some person interpretation of it after the fact, the FWHH books are a look back shortly after the Heresy and the index astartes are a loooooooong lookback from the point of view of a supersticious imperial historian, so we go with the HH series as being a true rendition of the events, you may not like it, but that is how it works.
That, really, really is not how it works. Do you think that Iliad is more accurate information source about ancient Greece than history books because it is written on first person level?
Your Eldar alegory is worse than all 3 of these, its a look back through poetic form 65 million years after the fact through the eyes of a decadent empire that believes itself to be the master race, it has a tiny grain of truth, nothing more, now if they make a first person book series from the point of view of the Eldar and it backs it up, I will believe it, until then, it has zero credibility as a source of information.
The perspective is completely irrelevant.
But hey, her's the same story from C'tan perspective!
White Dwarf wrote:
'Death stands above me, whispering low
I know not what in my ear
Of his strange language all I know
There is only pain and fear.'
— inscription transcribed from the walls of Cthelmax
You probably do not know this, but I am a great admirer of the Harlequins of the Laughing God and of their dances. I am especially fond of those dances that involve my brethren. Now, for your entertainment, allow me to relate to you the story of my favourite Harlequin dance, 'The Birth of Fear'.
During the infancy of their race, the eldar knew not the fear of death. They, as well as the other young races, were little more than battle-automata in service of the Old Ones, who knew better than to program fear into the fodder they would send to be slaughtered by our own necron servants. And of course, true, permanent death is not known to the eldar during this time, for their souls can simply be reborn into new bodies. The Old Ones must have seen our deathless servants and wanted to create their own version as a countermeasure.
And so it was that this new race entered the War in Heaven. They gave a good accounting of themselves. The greatest eldar heroes made their names in this stage of the war: Ulthanash and Eldanesh, brothers and warrior-kings, stood pre-eminent over their kind. Lanthrilaq the Swift and Thrice-Blessed Jaeriela stood with them, leading their peoples to victory after victory against our deathless host. And at the head of their armies was their warrior-god, towering and mighty, a immortal incarnation of fire and fury: Kaela Mensha Khaine.
Obviously, a race of psychics who possessed the power of reincarnation had the potential to be a significant thorn on our sides. The error of their existence must be rectified, and there is one among the C'tan who is perfectly suited for the role of corrector: my dear brother, the Nightbringer, the Master of Death.
The eldar feared my brother more than any other of my kind, a fear that remained unrivalled until - and arguably, even after - the rise of their Great Enemy. Such is their fear of him that they called him Kaelis Ra, which in their language means 'Destroyer of Light'. And it is only right for the eldar to fear him, for all who stood against the Nightbringer were utterly destroyed, losing even their very souls. Worlds died, empires crumbled, and the greatest of heroes perished before the scythe and gaze of Kaelis Ra.
The Nightbringer's presence in the eldar front all but secured our rule over the galaxy, but at that time there were far too many C'tan vying for power. Their numbers must be thinned, and my brother once again rose to the occasion, consuming the weaker and the less prudent members of our family, those who had no right to rule in the first place. Other C'tan followed his example, ensuring that the galaxy remained an interesting place even after our victory. The eldar believe that it was their Laughing God who 'inspired' the Nightbringer to consuming our weaker brethren. I allow them their happy little delusion, while laughing at their inability to tell the difference between the Nightbringer and the Outsider.
But while we struggled in our wars of sport, Khaine did not remain idle. He struck a bargain with the smith-god Vaul, a poor imitation of my brother the Dragon. In exchange for the release of a pair of unimportant gods from Khaine's dungeons, Vaul would create for him a hundred swords, the greatest weapons of the eldar. Vaul only managed to make ninety-nine in the time Khaine allotted, so he added one ordinary blade among the swords, hoping that Khaine would not notice. He did not, and, pleased with the work of the smith-god, armed the remnants of his army with the blades.
Khaine then launched an offensive against the Nightbringer's forces: a hundred of the greatest eldar heroes against legion after legion of necrons. Their foes stretched across the horizon, yet they knew no fear.
For seven days and seven nights the eldar stood, shoulder-to-shoulder, blades flashing in the darkness. Gauss beams bounced off defensive force fields and necron warriors were felled by god-forged blades. The hundred eldar warriors, invigorated by their swords, did not tire. In fact, it was as if they gained new life with each slash.
And then tragedy struck. Lanthrilaq the Swift did not prove true to his name, for he was the one who used the imperfect sword. He perished under sustained Gauss fire, and the eldar circle buckled broke.
The Nightbringer then burst forth from the ground, slaying the greatest of eldar heroes with a gesture. Khaine charged at him with a great roar, and one of the greatest duels in history began.
And so they fought: the God of Murder against the Master of Death, god against god, spear against scythe, white-hot rage against the cold patience of the grave. Khaine was a skilled combatant, but his spear could not find its mark. Even the mightiest of blades could not hit an incorporeal creature of shadow, and the Nightbringer toyed with Khaine as a hunter relishing in the suffering of his prey.
But when all hope seemed lost, Khaine recalled the advice given to him by one whom he believed was the Laughing God: the Nightbringer was a creature of shadow, but he had to become solid to deliver his blows. So as the Nightbringer aimed his scythe for the finishing blow, Khaine lunged drove his spear through his chest. The Nightbringer was torn from his physical form as it burst in a fiery explosion, which was followed by his warriors returning to their tombs. The shards of the Nightbringer's physical form also hit Khaine, forever tainting him with the Aspect of the Reaper.
But the battle did not end there. As Khaine howled his victory, so too did the Nightbringer howl his rage in the void of space. He implanted his image on the minds of the eldar, as well as all of the other races to come. Only the krork, whose minds were too dull to comprehend their own mortality, were spared. And the Nightbringer's curse so affected the eldar that from that time onward, the path of reincarnation was closed to them forever.
And these events, in their entirety, were just as planned.
Thank you for confirming I am using the term avatar correctly, and that you are not, not sure why you would post that though
What? It says that Avatar is an embodiment of a god. It is the god's soul, given a body. It is still that god, not a separate thing, just like if I wear a new suit I don't become another person altogether.
They could not do it back then, they cannot do it now, you have no evidence to back that statement up other than a single line of fluff that is pure allegory.
Evidence it is that it has been stated that this happened. This is how we know things about a fictional setting.
Yes its simplified and yes thats exactly how the warp works, as backed up by liber chaotica, which you would know if you had read it, which i very much doubt otherwise you would not have made that clearly wrong statement.
Liber Chaotica wrote:
I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the start gods.
But the battle was long and the first ones were now few, and as their numbers dwindled, so too did their influence over their young creations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw The Elder's warp-beings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods - the first true gods of the Immaterium.
Old ones and Eldar gods established as separate things. Also, unlike Chaos gods, Eldar gods are something that were intetionally created, although they sort of 'escaped' once they grew too powerful for the Eldar to handle. But this could be the reason why they're somewhat different than Chaos gods. The Eldar gods might be more coherent, as they're not a random occurrence.
So a being that could have been "Khaine" beat the Nightbringer, once, whats your point?
Lance845 didn't believe that Eldar gods were capable of defeating the C'tan. Though I guess you never had a problem with it, merely with the nature of the gods and the method of the defeat.
They have similarities because they are the same thing, warp beings made from the warp that are manifestations of a greater god, they are literally the same thing, but derived from different species emotions, Khaine is just the Eldar Khorne, with some notable distinctions.
It's not really the same though. Khaine the warp God doesn't exist any longer, only shards of him exist, and they reside in the infinity circuits of the craft worlds.
and yes, an Avatar of Khaine is a mortal Eldar that is possessed by a greater Deamon of Khaine, thats exactly what it is.
No. The Young King is a mere sacrifice. The thing being 'possessed' is the giant body sitting in the centre of the craft world. Those are always there.
So the people who actually write the fluff saying how it is supposed to work is irrelevant? Ok, mate...
I will say what I said about ADB regretting what he put into the first heretic, if he didnt want it taken seriously, he shouldnt have put it in the book (Ref: the missing primarchs), when you have a first person story and a 2nd person or even 3rd person historical look at something, you go with the first person story if there is a contradiction, the Heresy series are a true account of what happened in the Horus Heresy, not some person interpretation of it after the fact, the FWHH books are a look back shortly after the Heresy and the index astartes are a loooooooong lookback from the point of view of a supersticious imperial historian, so we go with the HH series as being a true rendition of the events, you may not like it, but that is how it works.
That, really, really is not how it works. Do you think that Iliad is more accurate information source about ancient Greece than history books because it is written on first person level?
Your Eldar alegory is worse than all 3 of these, its a look back through poetic form 65 million years after the fact through the eyes of a decadent empire that believes itself to be the master race, it has a tiny grain of truth, nothing more, now if they make a first person book series from the point of view of the Eldar and it backs it up, I will believe it, until then, it has zero credibility as a source of information.
The perspective is completely irrelevant.
But hey, her's the same story from C'tan perspective!
White Dwarf wrote:
'Death stands above me, whispering low
I know not what in my ear
Of his strange language all I know
There is only pain and fear.'
— inscription transcribed from the walls of Cthelmax
You probably do not know this, but I am a great admirer of the Harlequins of the Laughing God and of their dances. I am especially fond of those dances that involve my brethren. Now, for your entertainment, allow me to relate to you the story of my favourite Harlequin dance, 'The Birth of Fear'.
During the infancy of their race, the eldar knew not the fear of death. They, as well as the other young races, were little more than battle-automata in service of the Old Ones, who knew better than to program fear into the fodder they would send to be slaughtered by our own necron servants. And of course, true, permanent death is not known to the eldar during this time, for their souls can simply be reborn into new bodies. The Old Ones must have seen our deathless servants and wanted to create their own version as a countermeasure.
And so it was that this new race entered the War in Heaven. They gave a good accounting of themselves. The greatest eldar heroes made their names in this stage of the war: Ulthanash and Eldanesh, brothers and warrior-kings, stood pre-eminent over their kind. Lanthrilaq the Swift and Thrice-Blessed Jaeriela stood with them, leading their peoples to victory after victory against our deathless host. And at the head of their armies was their warrior-god, towering and mighty, a immortal incarnation of fire and fury: Kaela Mensha Khaine.
Obviously, a race of psychics who possessed the power of reincarnation had the potential to be a significant thorn on our sides. The error of their existence must be rectified, and there is one among the C'tan who is perfectly suited for the role of corrector: my dear brother, the Nightbringer, the Master of Death.
The eldar feared my brother more than any other of my kind, a fear that remained unrivalled until - and arguably, even after - the rise of their Great Enemy. Such is their fear of him that they called him Kaelis Ra, which in their language means 'Destroyer of Light'. And it is only right for the eldar to fear him, for all who stood against the Nightbringer were utterly destroyed, losing even their very souls. Worlds died, empires crumbled, and the greatest of heroes perished before the scythe and gaze of Kaelis Ra.
The Nightbringer's presence in the eldar front all but secured our rule over the galaxy, but at that time there were far too many C'tan vying for power. Their numbers must be thinned, and my brother once again rose to the occasion, consuming the weaker and the less prudent members of our family, those who had no right to rule in the first place. Other C'tan followed his example, ensuring that the galaxy remained an interesting place even after our victory. The eldar believe that it was their Laughing God who 'inspired' the Nightbringer to consuming our weaker brethren. I allow them their happy little delusion, while laughing at their inability to tell the difference between the Nightbringer and the Outsider.
But while we struggled in our wars of sport, Khaine did not remain idle. He struck a bargain with the smith-god Vaul, a poor imitation of my brother the Dragon. In exchange for the release of a pair of unimportant gods from Khaine's dungeons, Vaul would create for him a hundred swords, the greatest weapons of the eldar. Vaul only managed to make ninety-nine in the time Khaine allotted, so he added one ordinary blade among the swords, hoping that Khaine would not notice. He did not, and, pleased with the work of the smith-god, armed the remnants of his army with the blades.
Khaine then launched an offensive against the Nightbringer's forces: a hundred of the greatest eldar heroes against legion after legion of necrons. Their foes stretched across the horizon, yet they knew no fear.
For seven days and seven nights the eldar stood, shoulder-to-shoulder, blades flashing in the darkness. Gauss beams bounced off defensive force fields and necron warriors were felled by god-forged blades. The hundred eldar warriors, invigorated by their swords, did not tire. In fact, it was as if they gained new life with each slash.
And then tragedy struck. Lanthrilaq the Swift did not prove true to his name, for he was the one who used the imperfect sword. He perished under sustained Gauss fire, and the eldar circle buckled broke.
The Nightbringer then burst forth from the ground, slaying the greatest of eldar heroes with a gesture. Khaine charged at him with a great roar, and one of the greatest duels in history began.
And so they fought: the God of Murder against the Master of Death, god against god, spear against scythe, white-hot rage against the cold patience of the grave. Khaine was a skilled combatant, but his spear could not find its mark. Even the mightiest of blades could not hit an incorporeal creature of shadow, and the Nightbringer toyed with Khaine as a hunter relishing in the suffering of his prey.
But when all hope seemed lost, Khaine recalled the advice given to him by one whom he believed was the Laughing God: the Nightbringer was a creature of shadow, but he had to become solid to deliver his blows. So as the Nightbringer aimed his scythe for the finishing blow, Khaine lunged drove his spear through his chest. The Nightbringer was torn from his physical form as it burst in a fiery explosion, which was followed by his warriors returning to their tombs. The shards of the Nightbringer's physical form also hit Khaine, forever tainting him with the Aspect of the Reaper.
But the battle did not end there. As Khaine howled his victory, so too did the Nightbringer howl his rage in the void of space. He implanted his image on the minds of the eldar, as well as all of the other races to come. Only the krork, whose minds were too dull to comprehend their own mortality, were spared. And the Nightbringer's curse so affected the eldar that from that time onward, the path of reincarnation was closed to them forever.
And these events, in their entirety, were just as planned.
Thank you for confirming I am using the term avatar correctly, and that you are not, not sure why you would post that though
What? It says that Avatar is an embodiment of a god. It is the god's soul, given a body. It is still that god, not a separate thing, just like if I wear a new suit I don't become another person altogether.
They could not do it back then, they cannot do it now, you have no evidence to back that statement up other than a single line of fluff that is pure allegory.
Evidence it is that it has been stated that this happened. This is how we know things about a fictional setting.
Yes its simplified and yes thats exactly how the warp works, as backed up by liber chaotica, which you would know if you had read it, which i very much doubt otherwise you would not have made that clearly wrong statement.
Liber Chaotica wrote:
I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the start gods.
But the battle was long and the first ones were now few, and as their numbers dwindled, so too did their influence over their young creations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw The Elder's warp-beings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods - the first true gods of the Immaterium.
Old ones and Eldar gods established as separate things. Also, unlike Chaos gods, Eldar gods are something that were intetionally created, although they sort of 'escaped' once they grew too powerful for the Eldar to handle. But this could be the reason why they're somewhat different than Chaos gods. The Eldar gods might be more coherent, as they're not a random occurrence.
So a being that could have been "Khaine" beat the Nightbringer, once, whats your point?
Lance845 didn't believe that Eldar gods were capable of defeating the C'tan. Though I guess you never had a problem with it, merely with the nature of the gods and the method of the defeat.
They have similarities because they are the same thing, warp beings made from the warp that are manifestations of a greater god, they are literally the same thing, but derived from different species emotions, Khaine is just the Eldar Khorne, with some notable distinctions.
It's not really the same though. Khaine the warp God doesn't exist any longer, only shards of him exist, and they reside in the infinity circuits of the craft worlds.
and yes, an Avatar of Khaine is a mortal Eldar that is possessed by a greater Deamon of Khaine, thats exactly what it is.
No. The Young King is a mere sacrifice. The thing being 'possessed' is the giant body sitting in the centre of the craft world. Those are always there.
Yep the people who write the fluff who express an opinion after the fact, are irrelevent, only whats written in the books is relevent, George lucas may have an opinion on Star wars now, but it doesnt mater, ADB may have wanted what he wrote to be interpreted a certain way, but it wasnt, so soon as something is in the public domain, you lose control of it.... mate.
Yep, except in real life we dont have the benefit of being able to see the inner thoughts of the person we are observing, in this case we do, so yet again you seem to be unable to distinguish how these things work.
The perspective is 100% relevent, if I have two stories, one saying "I did this, and I did that" and one saying "and lo that person di cometh and do something cool, and all were awed" then I am going with the clearly less embelished story as its more credible.
Yep it says an Avatar is the embodiement of a god, something I have been saying over and over again, I can quote myself if you like? and this is what that means "a tangible or visible form of an idea, quality, or feeling." so yep, I am 100% correct in context. And yes if you wear a suit you DO become a different person, thats what context means, and in this context being the earthly manifestation of Khaine, an Avatar, a piece, a shard, means that it is NOT Khaine, but a part of the greater whole, not the greater whole itself, really not sure how you are not getting that, a bloodthirster is not Khorne, just as an Avatar is not Khaine.
No evidence has been presented, just the retold story that has no reliability from an unreliable medium by an unreliable race, a race that was in its infancy and likely interpreted great technology or greater beings as magic and gods, which leads me to
"I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the start gods."
Which is basically exactly what im saying, the old ones, who were likely interpreted as gods by the proto eldar, encouraged the eldar to believe in gods.... real shocker right there, you know Isha, the "mother" of the Eldar race, probably an old one, the one that created the Eldar, "Khaine" could have been an old one that saw the danger the young races presented and tried to wipe them out, his fellow old ones trying tried to top him, so he killed them, Eldar observe, legend takes over, then myth, then time turns them into "gods" and the history is retroactively changed to suit the Eldars perception of what happened over 65 MILLION years, is that sinking in yet, MILLIONS of years and you expect me to believe these allegories are true? factual? not a chance, in the same way as when the Index Astartes came out I didnt believe the clear embelishments about the primarchs, pure allegory.
And yep I have no issues with a possible warp god/Old one beating the Nightbringers Necrodermis, and yep I am debating the nature of the creatures that defeated it.
"It's not really the same though. Khaine the warp God doesn't exist any longer, only shards of him exist, and they reside in the infinity circuits of the craft worlds."
Dude you need to make your mind up, either the Avatars are Khaine or they are shards, I have been saying they are NOT Khaine, but parts of him, now your saying the same here???
Given that no body is left over from the waking of an Avatar is fair to guess that its either possession or the body is consumed during the waking, either way, its consistent with how greater deamons are summoned.
Numbers to rival Tyranids and Orks, and utterly dwarf pretty much all other races.
They’ve got the best established logistics, and more than a single fighting arm. Sure, the Imperial Guard are ponderously slow, but their numbers are ridiculous. They can pin you in place long enough for more mobile forces to do their surgical strikes.
Their planets and systems are rarely walk overs for anyone. If anything goes Pete Tong in your own attack strategy, you’re likely in for a hammering unless you’re coming in serious force (splinter Hive Fleets can be dealt with relatively well for instance, and it’s only main tendrils that are a serious and consistent threat).
The sheer size and breadth of The Imperium is its single greatest asset. Yes, they regularly lose ground - but can usually retake it if the drive is there. They can feed Regiment after Regiment of Guard into the grinder - and with planetary populations into the Billions, raise new ones almost as fast as they spend the old.
Their biggest drawback is often wonky lines of communication. The labyrinthine organisation isn’t unavoidable, but it is what it is. The enforced autonomy of their armed forces prevents particularly swift deployment, barring the Astartes. The squabbling nature of their organisation means politics can cause losses where victory was assured.
But even so. It’s colossal. It has near infinite room to withdraw, regroup and rearm. And when they’ve done that, here comes retribution, and it’s got your name on it...
Formosa wrote: Yep the people who write the fluff who express an opinion after the fact, are irrelevent, only whats written in the books is relevent, George lucas may have an opinion on Star wars now, but it doesnt mater, ADB may have wanted what he wrote to be interpreted a certain way, but it wasnt, so soon as something is in the public domain, you lose control of it.... mate.
Well, I am going to agree with the stated intent of the content creators, thank you very much.
Yep, except in real life we dont have the benefit of being able to see the inner thoughts of the person we are observing, in this case we do, so yet again you seem to be unable to distinguish how these things work.
We have the exact same ability! I can read about the thoughts of sir Tristan, just the same as I can read about the thoughts of Sanguinius.
The perspective is 100% relevent, if I have two stories, one saying "I did this, and I did that" and one saying "and lo that person di cometh and do something cool, and all were awed" then I am going with the clearly less embelished story as its more credible.
So you believe that Marco Polo actually saw dragons in China then? Because he wrote that he did? That is bonkers.
Yep it says an Avatar is the embodiement of a god, something I have been saying over and over again, I can quote myself if you like? and this is what that means "a tangible or visible form of an idea, quality, or feeling." so yep, I am 100% correct in context. And yes if you wear a suit you DO become a different person,
What? This doesn't make even a least bit of sense. If a wear a suit, I only become even handsomer, not a different person!
thats what context means, and in this context being the earthly manifestation of Khaine, an Avatar, a piece, a shard, means that it is NOT Khaine, but a part of the greater whole, not the greater whole itself, really not sure how you are not getting that, a bloodthirster is not Khorne, just as an Avatar is not Khaine.
Bloodthirster is not the same thing. We're talking about a situation where the will, the soul of a GOD, directly controls a physical form. There is no separate being, just one being taking different forms.
No evidence has been presented, just the retold story that has no reliability from an unreliable medium by an unreliable race, a race that was in its infancy and likely interpreted great technology or greater beings as magic and gods, which leads me to
"I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the start gods."
Which is basically exactly what im saying, the old ones, who were likely interpreted as gods by the proto eldar, encouraged the eldar to believe in gods.... real shocker right there, you know Isha, the "mother" of the Eldar race, probably an old one, the one that created the Eldar, "Khaine" could have been an old one that saw the danger the young races presented and tried to wipe them out, his fellow old ones trying tried to top him, so he killed them, Eldar observe, legend takes over, then myth, then time turns them into "gods" and the history is retroactively changed to suit the Eldars perception of what happened over 65 MILLION years, is that sinking in yet, MILLIONS of years and you expect me to believe these allegories are true? factual? not a chance, in the same way as when the Index Astartes came out I didnt believe the clear embelishments about the primarchs, pure allegory.
No. The Eldar know about the Old Ones. And the proto-gods were created as psychic weapons under the direction of the Old Ones. The Old Ones and the Eldar gods existed concurrently.
Furthermore, you totally skipped the part where the Elda and C'tan accounts of the Khaine fighting Nightbringer were essentially the same. These Eldar 'legends' seem pretty accurate!
Dude you need to make your mind up, either the Avatars are Khaine or they are shards, I have been saying they are NOT Khaine, but parts of him, now your saying the same here???
They're shards after Khaine was shattered by Slaanesh. But these Shards are not exactly like greater daemons, who are created by still existing gods. There is no record of Eldar gods (except Slaanesh) having any sort of separate daemons.
There is clearly a canon at work in 40K, maybe a loose one that has contradictions and retcons, but there is clearly one at work. There are certain fixed facts and rules/guidelines about how the 40k universe works.
We know how bolters behave and that the Horus Heresy occurred. If a BL writer wrote that bolters fired daisies, that there were never any Primarchs and never any Heresy, he would be told he is wrong, not that "anything goes". How can you say he is wrong unless there was a fixed objective truth to how something works in the 40K universe?
Any fictional shared universe has to have a canon at work, even if it is not explicitly stated, because without internal consistency you don't have a coherent setting. You just have nonsense.
All those quotes amount to editorial and continuity checking laziness, and trying to palm that off as "deep" philosophical stance to the gullible.
Iracundus wrote: There is clearly a canon at work in 40K, maybe a loose one that has contradictions and retcons, but there is clearly one at work. There are certain fixed facts and rules/guidelines about how the 40k universe works.
We know how bolters behave and that the Horus Heresy occurred. If a BL writer wrote that bolters fired daisies, that there were never any Primarchs and never any Heresy, he would be told he is wrong, not that "anything goes". How can you say he is wrong unless there was a fixed objective truth to how something works in the 40K universe?
Sure, but like it or not, in 40K such canon only exists in broad stokes sense.
"I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you." -Marc Gascoigne (overall manager of Black Library prior to 2008)
As I said in another thread, it is probably better to think it like comic books and their various adaptations. There is Clack Kent who is Kryptonian operating under pseudonym Superman, and his arch enemy is called Lex Luthor. But the events and details from the comics do not exactly match those in various TV series or film adaptations, or often even with earlier issues of the comic.
Iracundus wrote: There is clearly a canon at work in 40K, maybe a loose one that has contradictions and retcons, but there is clearly one at work. There are certain fixed facts and rules/guidelines about how the 40k universe works.
We know how bolters behave and that the Horus Heresy occurred. If a BL writer wrote that bolters fired daisies, that there were never any Primarchs and never any Heresy, he would be told he is wrong, not that "anything goes". How can you say he is wrong unless there was a fixed objective truth to how something works in the 40K universe?
Sure, but like it or not, in 40K such canon only exists in broad stokes sense.
"I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you." -Marc Gascoigne (overall manager of Black Library prior to 2008)
As I said in another thread, it is probably better to think it like comic books and their various adaptations. There is Clack Kent who is Kryptonian operating under pseudonym Superman, and his arch enemy is called Lex Luthor. But the events and details from the comics do not exactly match those in various TV series or film adaptations, or often even with earlier issues of the comic.
Nonetheless that is a canon. The fact that there can be anything said with any certainty about a fictional universe is what canon is.
I also would not put any weight on what Marc said because he was also the one that claimed there would never ever be any BL work from a non-human xenos POV. Yet now we have the Eldar Path trilogy, the Dark Eldar trilogy, Valedor novel, Phoenix Lord series, and Harlequin audio book. So much for "never".
TapedTempest wrote: Unless there is some huge event that heavily weakens them, Tyranids should eventually overcome every race overall.
An event like the Tau continuing their trend to become a grimdark Culture clone and overwhelming the Tyranids with sheer numbers of combat drones (each of them more powerful than a 40k battleship)? This is why the Tau win any of these long-game scenarios, they're the only faction with pragmatism in science/engineering and developing technology. They may not be able to conquer the whole galaxy now, but give them time...
TapedTempest wrote: Unless there is some huge event that heavily weakens them, Tyranids should eventually overcome every race overall.
An event like the Tau continuing their trend to become a grimdark Culture clone and overwhelming the Tyranids with sheer numbers of combat drones (each of them more powerful than a 40k battleship)? This is why the Tau win any of these long-game scenarios, they're the only faction with pragmatism in science/engineering and developing technology. They may not be able to conquer the whole galaxy now, but give them time...
I can't picture any Tau world surviving a tendril the size and like of which hit Baal. All they have ever face is very small tendrils with dozens/hundreds of hive ships. Never anything like the hundreds of thousands that layed waste to the whole cryptus system.
Now, I also think that the Tau having no psychic potential and the fact that psychics seem to draw the tyranids may result in the Tau ending up surviving the tyranid purge of the galaxy and inheriting the next broken remains. The Necrons WOULD be ignored as well except that the necrons won't sit back and just survive so they will egg the hive fleets on. But the Tau already avoid the orks if they can because it's not worth their time and resources. I could see them doing the same with the nids. Eventually and just turtling up for a few hundred years and hoping to go unnoticed until they can start to try to colonize the dead rocks the nids have left behind.
Lance845 wrote: I can't picture any Tau world surviving a tendril the size and like of which hit Baal. All they have ever face is very small tendrils with dozens/hundreds of hive ships. Never anything like the hundreds of thousands that layed waste to the whole cryptus system.
Again, not currently, but project their development out to a higher level and they will. And not just survive, effortlessly slaughter it. Hundreds of thousands of ships can't compete with billions of AI drone warships, each of them more powerful than a current-era Imperium battleship. Or with planetary shields that can laugh off exterminatus-scale weapons. Or with effectively infinite supplies of gun drones on the ground, each armed with "pulse rifles" comparable to titan guns.
Lance845 wrote: I can't picture any Tau world surviving a tendril the size and like of which hit Baal. All they have ever face is very small tendrils with dozens/hundreds of hive ships. Never anything like the hundreds of thousands that layed waste to the whole cryptus system.
Again, not currently, but project their development out to a higher level and they will. And not just survive, effortlessly slaughter it. Hundreds of thousands of ships can't compete with billions of AI drone warships, each of them more powerful than a current-era Imperium battleship. Or with planetary shields that can laugh off exterminatus-scale weapons. Or with effectively infinite supplies of gun drones on the ground, each armed with "pulse rifles" comparable to titan guns.
They cannot make that stuff out of thin air. The Tau require resources like everyone else. To have the numbers of warships and drones to "outnumber" the nids would require a level of expansion they would never reach at this stage of 40k. They simply don't have the materials or production capabilities to get there.
I think Peregrine has a point. Unlike pretty much all other factions in the setting, the Tau strive to improve their technology. Given time, they may surpass their competitors, assuming that they won't get annihilated before that.
Then again, there are probably some limits to how far the tech can go. I think the Necrons and the Eldar at their height pretty much maxed the tech and no further progress is really possible.But the Tau could attain those levels.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: If the Necrons are already at the max possible tech level though, is it really reasonable to assume the Tau will surpass them?
That was my second point. So probably not. They could match them though.
Probably. Assuming they survive that long. I'm pretty sure that if the Necrons or Eldar detect a possible technological rival, they might actually do something for once instead of sleeping or writing angst-ridden poetry about how much they screwed up.
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Crazyterran wrote: Anyone who says anything other than the Imperium is a dirty heretic.
Especially now that Guilliman is here to turn the boat around!
Perhaps. But does the Imperium know how many licks it will take to reach the center of a white dwarf? Only the C'tan know, so they win hands down
Well, right now the imperium is shattered, only marginally kept together by Guilliman. I'd say Chaos has the upper hand in the galaxy.
That being said, Orks occupy the most worlds by a great margin and prior to the 13th black crusade Ghazgkull was about to unify them all, creating waaaaghs all over the galaxy. I'm really curious what GW makes out of this.
And then there's Tyranids of course. The fluff seems to be vague on how many of them are there, but it's implied they could rival Orks. I don't think we'll ever see the endgame of 40K, instead Tyranids will always be uncountable, yet every space marine kills a hive fleet single handedly and keeps them away.
Necrons actually don't seem that powerful to me since the retcon. They are fractured and insane, kind of like the imperium, but with robots.
They cannot make that stuff out of thin air. The Tau require resources like everyone else. To have the numbers of warships and drones to "outnumber" the nids would require a level of expansion they would never reach at this stage of 40k. They simply don't have the materials or production capabilities to get there.
The Tau homeworld has been space capable for probably 3000 years, and stripping nearby star systems for materials for almost as long. They use drones for construction, so they make forge worlds look slow by comparison. The Tau's biggest problem isn't materials or production, it's communication and ship speed. Hive Fleet Gorgon had to be repelled by basically what ships and warriors were close at hand in the outer Tau systems.
The Tau first and second sphere worlds probably have populations in the trillions, possibly the quadrillions. They've had several thousand years of space age development and they had to use sub-light, then near-light transit to expand, meaning population densities in the first systems will be huge. This isn't an issue if you're willing to devote time and effort into quality of life, and the Tau have technologies we currently cannot fathom (gravitic, inertial) that make space colonization trivial, and allow for massive infrastructure.
Basically, the Tau's relatively slow expansion due to lack of good FTL means they have an incredible concentration of military and industrial capacity, compared to the other races that are spread through the galaxy. Every Tau first and second sphere world should be a combination of hive, fortress and forge world, because they've had millennia to build them up. The Second Sphere had almost 2000 years to establish before the Damocles Crusade. The third sphere is relatively young (few hundred years), but drone construction and the outflow of billions of Tau to the new worlds means they'll industrialize very, very quickly.
The Startide Nexus could be very, very bad for the Tau if they expand faster than they can fortify. OTOH it should make reinforcing segments of their empire easier, so if they keep the expansion rate manageable, then they're in an even stronger position overall.
The Silent King said that he fears that, if Necrons let Tyranids feed upon the galaxy, not even a united Necron race would stand a chance agaisnt them.
Assuming the Silent King is the only guy in the galaxy that has actually saw the Tyranids in all of his glory and not only the first tendrils that entered the milky way, we can assume than a united Necron race is more powerfull than the Tyranids that will invade the Galaxy, unless those Tyranids feed upon the galaxy and grew stronger.
Galas wrote: The Silent King said that he fears that, if Necrons let Tyranids feed upon the galaxy, not even a united Necron race would stand a chance agaisnt them.
Szarekh's concern is/was that the Tyranids will kill everyone else, and the Necrons will be unable to find new living bodies (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.24 'The Return of the Silent King'), not specifically that the Necrons will be unable to defeat them.
Lance845 wrote: They cannot make that stuff out of thin air. The Tau require resources like everyone else. To have the numbers of warships and drones to "outnumber" the nids would require a level of expansion they would never reach at this stage of 40k. They simply don't have the materials or production capabilities to get there.
Not currently, but the building blocks are there. They have advanced AI, the next step is to use that AI to create self-replicating factory systems. From there it's a very small step to converting entire planetary masses of raw materials into combat drones.
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Tyran wrote: The Tau still have the problem that they have no idea how to deal with the Warp.
The Tau are nothing new, the galaxy has already seen a civilization like the Tau come and go. You know what civilization it was? it was humanity.
How do you deal with the warp? Shoot the things that come out of it. Repeat until the problem is solved.
And there's a huge difference between the Tau and humanity: humans are vulnerable to Chaos corruption, the Tau aren't. As humanity became stronger it just made itself a more useful pawn for Chaos, creating its own defeat. The Tau, on the other hand, would not have to worry about that. There wouldn't be anything to slow them down or consume them in self-destructive corruption.
How do you deal with the warp? Shoot the things that come out of it. Repeat until the problem is solved.
Agreed, though the Tau are trying to mess with the warp all the same. Their warp-skimming technology is probably the best of both worlds; FTL with minimal warp risk. But we'll have to see what the Startide Nexus turns out to be. Can't be a webway portal unless they're using other xeno psykers to open them, could be reverse engineered Dolmen Gates.
Galas wrote: The Silent King said that he fears that, if Necrons let Tyranids feed upon the galaxy, not even a united Necron race would stand a chance agaisnt them.
Szarekh's concern is/was that the Tyranids will kill everyone else, and the Necrons will be unable to find new living bodies (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.24 'The Return of the Silent King'), not specifically that the Necrons will be unable to defeat them.
He also mentions that that the Tyranids might feed enough that even the united might of the Necrons would be unable to prevail. Currently the Tyranids aren't a direct threat to the Necrons, but the incompetence of the mortal races may change that.
Tyran wrote: The Tau still have the problem that they have no idea how to deal with the Warp.
The Tau are nothing new, the galaxy has already seen a civilization like the Tau come and go. You know what civilization it was? it was humanity.
How do you deal with the warp? Shoot the things that come out of it. Repeat until the problem is solved.
And there's a huge difference between the Tau and humanity: humans are vulnerable to Chaos corruption, the Tau aren't. As humanity became stronger it just made itself a more useful pawn for Chaos, creating its own defeat. The Tau, on the other hand, would not have to worry about that. There wouldn't be anything to slow them down or consume them in self-destructive corruption.
Their souls burn less bright and thus are less vulnerable than human ones, but they still feel the same emotions that feed Chaos, they are vulnerable to it just like any other sentient species, and they will discover it the bad way.
And artificial intelligence is also vulnerable to Chaos, there is an entire subfield of Chaos corruption that specializes in turning artificial intelligence against its masters.
In the end, In a war between the Tau and Necrons, the winner will be the one with better tech. However, seeing as how the Necrons are the Apex of physical (non-Warp) technology, to go beyond would require usage of the Warp; and result in either Ascension to the status of the old ones (thus making the war irrelevant to begin with as the Gods of Chaos fustercluck the new Smorgasbord of godlike souls into nonexistence) or simply expose them to the Warp without psychic protection (with even more gruesome results the the former). Assuming, of course, that NOTHING ELSE interrupts them in the tens of thousands of years required to reach that level (even for the Tau).
Oh, and the Tyranids are never expressly stated to have conquered other galaxies. we MIGHT just be the next door neighbors. They MIGHT be running from whatever is kicking their collective ass in the galaxy they came from (as in Half-Life).
The Tyranids are an X factor: Undefined, Unreliable, but POTENTIALLY Unstoppable.
At least, if I am correct in my lore. But who but GW really knows anyway?
Squidsy22 wrote: In the end, In a war between the Tau and Necrons, the winner will be the one with better tech. However, seeing as how the Necrons are the Apex of physical (non-Warp) technology, to go beyond would require usage of the Warp; and result in either Ascension to the status of the old ones (thus making the war irrelevant to begin with as the Gods of Chaos fustercluck the new Smorgasbord of godlike souls into nonexistence) or simply expose them to the Warp without psychic protection (with even more gruesome results the the former). Assuming, of course, that NOTHING ELSE interrupts them in the tens of thousands of years required to reach that level (even for the Tau).
Oh, and the Tyranids are never expressly stated to have conquered other galaxies. we MIGHT just be the next door neighbors. They MIGHT be running from whatever is kicking their collective ass in the galaxy they came from (as in Half-Life).
The Tyranids are an X factor: Undefined, Unreliable, but POTENTIALLY Unstoppable.
At least, if I am correct in my lore. But who but GW really knows anyway?
Yes they have, Tyranids having nomnomed other galaxies is an old statement.
Squidsy22 wrote: In the end, In a war between the Tau and Necrons, the winner will be the one with better tech. However, seeing as how the Necrons are the Apex of physical (non-Warp) technology, to go beyond would require usage of the Warp; and result in either Ascension to the status of the old ones (thus making the war irrelevant to begin with as the Gods of Chaos fustercluck the new Smorgasbord of godlike souls into nonexistence) or simply expose them to the Warp without psychic protection (with even more gruesome results the the former). Assuming, of course, that NOTHING ELSE interrupts them in the tens of thousands of years required to reach that level (even for the Tau).
Oh, and the Tyranids are never expressly stated to have conquered other galaxies. we MIGHT just be the next door neighbors. They MIGHT be running from whatever is kicking their collective ass in the galaxy they came from (as in Half-Life).
The Tyranids are an X factor: Undefined, Unreliable, but POTENTIALLY Unstoppable.
At least, if I am correct in my lore. But who but GW really knows anyway?
The Tyranids are for sure not running. They were having a post meal hibernation nap out in the void between galaxies when the pharos devise got their attention during the horus heresy. They woke up and started descending on our galaxy.
Also genestealers and other nid descended bioforms were scattered throughout the galaxy before the hive fleets arrived, implying they have been here and done this before.
Tyran wrote: Yes they have, Tyranids having nomnomed other galaxies is an old statement.
Lance845 wrote: The Tyranids are for sure not running. They were having a post meal hibernation nap out in the void between galaxies when the pharos devise got their attention during the horus heresy. They woke up and started descending on our galaxy. Also genestealers and other nid descended bioforms were scattered throughout the galaxy before the hive fleets arrived, implying they have been here and done this before.
Well then, I stand corrected! The question then, I suppose, becomes: Who can stop them?
. You just enjoy your Eldar fanboy fan fiction. Good on ya!
