I have seen entire threads and posts dedicated to why Orks should be nerfed. Not sure why (as an Ork player) so why don't you all have a huge scrap about it and who ever is left standing is correct (like a good old fashioned Ork debate!). Either try and change my mind or try to tell me I'm not insane.
Orkz need to be redesigned from the ground up. While the faction as a whole is home to a stellar list of horribly overpriced and under-performing units, the simple Ork Boy represents the very worst of 8th edition's horde bias.
Assuming nothing is done to properly handle how broken hordes are right now, the Ork leadership system needs to be redesigned so that oceans of Boyz are not the be-all-end-all of the game.
Currently Boyz are amazing and everything else is kind of trash.
What needs to happen is that all the other units get buffed up to a decent standard, which could probably be done mostly with Clan traits and strats, and Boyz get a bit of a knock down.
So yes, one unit does need a nerf, but loads of others need improving or that will make Orks the worst army in the game.
Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.
If Orks get the usual boost that a codex gives them (relics, stratagems, cost reductions, etc.), but normal Boyz remain as they are (or worse, get cheaper), it'll be the most unstoppable army in the game.
Way too many auras/bubbles/boosts were designed for the Ork army without due consideration to all of them being bundled together over hundreds of models.
I mean, they got an extra attack at base and I'm pretty sure they have a permanent S4 (which to be fair they should've had last edition). You make Trukks an appropriate price and there really would be much to do against them.
I don't know... a lot of our buffs are just 6 up feel no pains. I don't see buffs are the problem. The 5 up invulnerable is hard to put over more than 30 boyz because of the fact everyone needs to be within the bubble or it doesn't work.
Stuff like the warboss trait is needed because of the 5" movement. I've seen some armies gun down 30 or 60 ork boyz a turn so i never see them as op.
Ork boyz are not amazing, not at all. Even when they have 6 attacks each. In the reality ork boyz will likely have 3 attacks due to the fact that they surely suffer casualties before charging and weridboyz with warpath and ghaz (the tho buffers that give +1A) won't give tons of attacks usually. The weirdboy in fact usually gives +1A 1 or 2 times per game since you should probably want to smite and assaulting stuff isn't that easy. And ghaz is a footslogging dude. Not that orks with 6 attacks each means paying for a blob of 20+ dudes (not a problem, you may want the horde anyway) but also 62 points for a weirdboy (but usually da jump is way more usueful and having 2 psykers may be ok, definitely not mandatory though) and ghaz is another 215 points. A massive investment of points when having more bodies is usually a better choice.
Ork boyz are 6+ save guys with basically no shooting, in an edition in which pretty much everyone has cheap screeners to stop the close combat monsters. And any TAC list is able to kill 30 buffed boyz per turn, even 60 without KFF and painboy auras.
Simply, don't take 25 lascannons and 45 dark reapers. Orks deserve to be improved, and improved a lot.
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Elbows wrote: Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.
What are you talking about? The basic ork boy should definitely have more attacks that imperium CC units, which are usually clumsy dudes with huge armors. Orks live for punching people, they'd defintely deserve tons of low strength no ap attacks. We're talking about max 4 attacks per boy without HQs bonuses. Blood claws have 3 attacks each on the charge. Drukhari wyches have 3 attacks each with the drug, which is the standard drug a player should give them, genestealers have 3 base plus 1 if the unit is 10+ models. 3-4 attacks each are quite standard for close combat oriented troops that actually are supposed to be able to fight and have little shooting or no shooting at all.
I'd argue that there's no excuse to negate some invuln in close combat for orks like imperium storm shields. And only characters and sargents (nobz) can take melee special weapons while SM can have units with basic dudes armed with effective melee weapons. Orks melee output is definitely overrated at the moment, they don't need to be nerfed in any possible way.
I really haven't seen a lot of threads about nerfing Orks. Where are those?
I personally don't see it happening. Orks are in a pretty weak state right now. And while boyz dish out damage in CC, they have a 5" movement, a 6+ save, and are too inexpensive to fit in transports.
Blackie wrote: Ork boyz are not amazing, not at all. Even when they have 6 attacks each. In the reality ork boyz will likely have 3 attacks due to the fact that they surely suffer casualties before charging and weridboyz with warpath and ghaz (the tho buffers that give +1A) won't give tons of attacks usually. The weirdboy in fact usually gives +1A 1 or 2 times per game since you should probably want to smite and assaulting stuff isn't that easy. And ghaz is a footslogging dude. Not that orks with 6 attacks each means paying for a blob of 20+ dudes (not a problem, you may want the horde anyway) but also 62 points for a weirdboy (but usually da jump is way more usueful and having 2 psykers may be ok, definitely not mandatory though) and ghaz is another 215 points. A massive investment of points when having more bodies is usually a better choice.
Ork boyz are 6+ save guys with basically no shooting, in an edition in which pretty much everyone has cheap screeners to stop the close combat monsters. And any TAC list is able to kill 30 buffed boyz per turn, even 60 without KFF and painboy auras.
Simply, don't take 25 lascannons and 45 dark reapers. Orks deserve to be improved, and improved a lot.
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Elbows wrote: Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.
What are you talking about? The basic ork boy should definitely have more attacks that imperium CC units, which are usually clumsy dudes with huge armors. Orks live for punching people, they'd defintely deserve tons of low strength no ap attacks. I'd argue that there's no excuse to negate some invuln in close combat for orks like imperium storm shields. And only characters and sargents (nobz) can take melee special weapons while SM can have units with basic dudes armed with effective melee weapons. Orks melee output is definitely overrated at the moment, they don't need to be nerfed in any possible way.
Nope. That's not remotely reasonable. Don't even start with that nonsense.
Elbows wrote: Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.
The "best in the universe" has a basic statline of WS 3+, S4, A2 just like boyz. Granted, Intercessors are much better at shooting and has actual armor, but they are also a lot more expensive.
Elbows wrote: Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.
The "best in the universe" has a basic statline of WS 3+, S4, A2 just like boyz. Granted, Intercessors are much better at shooting and has actual armor, but they are also a lot more expensive.
Eh try again custodes are the best in the 40K universe right now.
Orks need some depth of playability but green tide realy needs to avoid being jacked in power level untill they rofl stomping everyone.
Blackie wrote: Ork boyz are not amazing, not at all. Even when they have 6 attacks each. In the reality ork boyz will likely have 3 attacks due to the fact that they surely suffer casualties before charging and weridboyz with warpath and ghaz (the tho buffers that give +1A) won't give tons of attacks usually. The weirdboy in fact usually gives +1A 1 or 2 times per game since you should probably want to smite and assaulting stuff isn't that easy. And ghaz is a footslogging dude. Not that orks with 6 attacks each means paying for a blob of 20+ dudes (not a problem, you may want the horde anyway) but also 62 points for a weirdboy (but usually da jump is way more usueful and having 2 psykers may be ok, definitely not mandatory though) and ghaz is another 215 points. A massive investment of points when having more bodies is usually a better choice.
Ork boyz are 6+ save guys with basically no shooting, in an edition in which pretty much everyone has cheap screeners to stop the close combat monsters. And any TAC list is able to kill 30 buffed boyz per turn, even 60 without KFF and painboy auras.
Simply, don't take 25 lascannons and 45 dark reapers. Orks deserve to be improved, and improved a lot.
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Elbows wrote: Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.
What are you talking about? The basic ork boy should definitely have more attacks that imperium CC units, which are usually clumsy dudes with huge armors. Orks live for punching people, they'd defintely deserve tons of low strength no ap attacks. I'd argue that there's no excuse to negate some invuln in close combat for orks like imperium storm shields. And only characters and sargents (nobz) can take melee special weapons while SM can have units with basic dudes armed with effective melee weapons. Orks melee output is definitely overrated at the moment, they don't need to be nerfed in any possible way.
Nope. That's not remotely reasonable. Don't even start with that nonsense.
What's the nonsense? I don't see any reason why nobz, meganobz and especially warbosses can't have and invuln in close combat like pretty much every standard SM unit can have. SW wolf lords have a belt (!!!!!) that gives them a 4+ invuln, and it's not even an upgrade, it's standard wargear for stock dudes. That's a nonsense, considering that they can have a 3+ invuln for what? 15 points?
Elbows wrote: Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.
The "best in the universe" has a basic statline of WS 3+, S4, A2 just like boyz. Granted, Intercessors are much better at shooting and has actual armor, but they are also a lot more expensive.
Eh try again custodes are the best in the 40K universe right now.
Orks need some depth of playability but green tide realy needs to avoid being jacked in power level untill they rofl stomping everyone.
The're not stomping anyone, please, unless you want to play with 15-20 models. In that case, it's your problem if you can't manage an horde.
I'm on the Orks are weak except for boys bandwagon.
My reasons and I know they aren't absolutes and your mileage may vary.
The argument that boyz die fast etc etc makes sense against "normal" builds. Yes, you can wipe out 30-60 boyz in a good shooting phase...but the 6-10 mobs of 30 boyz (I know, that's a LOT of your points, but stop spending all those extra points for nobs and weapons...you aren't shooting for crap anyway! Buy nobs for the second rank of your charge only...) is the problem, particularly if they get first turn (I know, less than half the time...so don't waste breath)
Standard Horde issues. If you can't get a line of say 8 ork mobs of 30 models into CC (that's somewhere around 1600 points so I do hear you...) by turn 2 with massive numbers of attacks, you're a terrible player (and please on the 5" move...their move is NOT 5" it is 5" +1d6). That second rank of 120 boyz should hit at near full strength and be charging multiple enemy units even if your opponent got two rounds of shooting and killed 30-60 boys each round.
If you routinely play a gunline opponent who sets his models up on his very table edge every game and never moves, than there's problems for your boyz. But that tactic has issues as it is in game balance anyway, and scenarios etc should be making them do some variety in placement and movement at least. The gunline has its places and is a tactic, yes, but shouldn't be the majority of your opponents (deep strike alpha seems to be).
Now, to all the players who want to run orks as something other than a human wave (hmmm greenskin wave?) assault, I absolutely hear you and they need a lot of help.
edwardmyst wrote: If you routinely play a gunline opponent who sets his models up on his very table edge every game and never moves, than there's problems for your boyz. But that tactic has issues as it is in game balance anyway, and scenarios etc should be making them do some variety in placement and movement at least. The gunline has its places and is a tactic, yes, but shouldn't be the majority of your opponents (deep strike alpha seems to be).
Agreed. Boyz dying to a well played gunline is not a mark against Boyz. Melee hordes SHOULD die to gunline, that's all part of the rock paper scissors of the game. The problem here is that the tools that Orks should have to help deal with the gunlines are not effective.
Elbows wrote: Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.
The "best in the universe" has a basic statline of WS 3+, S4, A2 just like boyz. Granted, Intercessors are much better at shooting and has actual armor, but they are also a lot more expensive.
Eh try again custodes are the best in the 40K universe right now.
Orks need some depth of playability but green tide realy needs to avoid being jacked in power level untill they rofl stomping everyone.
The're not stomping anyone, please, unless you want to play with 15-20 models. In that case, it's your problem if you can't manage an horde.
If you check the quote I didn't say they were stomping everyone currently. I said they need to avoid buffing green tide while improving the rest of the codex.
With no templates or modifiers for unit size on most weapons, hordes are not very well balanced in 8th thats an 8th problem not an ork issue.
The usual problem with orks this edition, same as in 6th and in 7th edition, is that the only "viable" way to play competitively is to play a green tide and run 150+ ork boyz, 100 Stormboyz, etc.
As much as I love orks, I hate to say that I really don't care to move that many infantry models every turn, much less paint that many boyz. Nevermind spending that much money on infantry boxes. What I'd really love is for everything else in the ork army list to at least have the potential to win games.
If you check the quote I didn't say they were stomping everyone currently. I said they need to avoid buffing green tide while improving the rest of the codex.
With no templates or modifiers for unit size on most weapons, hordes are not very well balanced in 8th thats an 8th problem not an ork issue.
I understand, I meant that orks are not going to stomp anyone, even with a codex that buffs the current boyz.
Even with tons of attacks each their damage output is not amazing. First, you actually have to reach combat, then some of your dudes won't be able to fight because getting 20+ models into combat is usually impossible. S4 hits with no ap do very little against armored stuff, and nobz don't have them math to make the difference. Seriously I don't see the issue for boyz having 2-4 attacks base and up to 6 each with the appropriate buffs. They're not going to be top tiers with a green tide, it's an overreaction.
edwardmyst wrote: If you routinely play a gunline opponent who sets his models up on his very table edge every game and never moves, than there's problems for your boyz. But that tactic has issues as it is in game balance anyway, and scenarios etc should be making them do some variety in placement and movement at least. The gunline has its places and is a tactic, yes, but shouldn't be the majority of your opponents (deep strike alpha seems to be).
Agreed. Boyz dying to a well played gunline is not a mark against Boyz. Melee hordes SHOULD die to gunline, that's all part of the rock paper scissors of the game. The problem here is that the tools that Orks should have to help deal with the gunlines are not effective.
I strongly disagree with that. Even the most effective gunlines shouldn't be able to wipe out an horde. They should have equal chances anyway. In fact a melee horde should be an efficient tool to deal with gunlines since all the anti tank will be wasted.
Generally speaking shooting in 40k should be toned down a lot. TAC armies that can melt armored stuff AND hordes with average rolls should never exist.
edwardmyst wrote: If you routinely play a gunline opponent who sets his models up on his very table edge every game and never moves, than there's problems for your boyz. But that tactic has issues as it is in game balance anyway, and scenarios etc should be making them do some variety in placement and movement at least. The gunline has its places and is a tactic, yes, but shouldn't be the majority of your opponents (deep strike alpha seems to be).
Agreed. Boyz dying to a well played gunline is not a mark against Boyz. Melee hordes SHOULD die to gunline, that's all part of the rock paper scissors of the game. The problem here is that the tools that Orks should have to help deal with the gunlines are not effective.
I strongly disagree with that. Even the most effective gunlines shouldn't be able to wipe out an horde. They should have equal chances anyway. In fact a melee horde should be an efficient tool to deal with gunlines since all the anti tank will be wasted.
Generally speaking shooting in 40k should be toned down a lot. TAC armies that can melt armored stuff AND hordes with average rolls should never exist.
Maybe not wipe them out, but they should do very significant damage to them. I'm not talking about heavy weapons here, they should not be efficient against hordes, I'm talking a gunline built for anti horde.
I think shooting needs to be better in the abstract than melee, because once you get to melee you are usually stuck there and the melee unit will win. The shooting unit only has a limited window before that happens to stand a chance of winning. In my opinion you should have to use specialised units to disrupt the gunline to have a chance of getting your melee units in more or less unscathed.
Orks have such a characterful collection of units available that it’s a crime for only one main unit to be viable if you want to win (variations of boyz).
From what I read, nids codex has to be the benchmark with pretty much everything viable / competitive. Just feels like it represents the most fun for everyone to field/face loads of different list variations.
I also suspect it’s hellishly difficult to achieve this!
Heavy Bolters totally shred Ork Boyz.
The only reason why Ork Boyz lists are so powerfull is because in a meta build around taking a ton of anti tank to kill giant monsters, they are a list with normally only horde. And , unlike Tyranids or IG, the little guys aren't just chaff, they are the ones that do the damage, that do the heavy lifting of the lists.
Thats why they appear to be more powerfull that what they really are. Orks die in droves to morale, because they just die in droves. Kill 15 ork boyz in one mob, and that mob is gone. And to kill 15 boyz is extremely easy if you have a bit of anti horde like Assault Cannons or Heavy Bolters.
edwardmyst wrote: If you routinely play a gunline opponent who sets his models up on his very table edge every game and never moves, than there's problems for your boyz. But that tactic has issues as it is in game balance anyway, and scenarios etc should be making them do some variety in placement and movement at least. The gunline has its places and is a tactic, yes, but shouldn't be the majority of your opponents (deep strike alpha seems to be).
Agreed. Boyz dying to a well played gunline is not a mark against Boyz. Melee hordes SHOULD die to gunline, that's all part of the rock paper scissors of the game. The problem here is that the tools that Orks should have to help deal with the gunlines are not effective.
I strongly disagree with that. Even the most effective gunlines shouldn't be able to wipe out an horde. They should have equal chances anyway. In fact a melee horde should be an efficient tool to deal with gunlines since all the anti tank will be wasted.
Generally speaking shooting in 40k should be toned down a lot. TAC armies that can melt armored stuff AND hordes with average rolls should never exist.
Maybe not wipe them out, but they should do very significant damage to them. I'm not talking about heavy weapons here, they should not be efficient against hordes, I'm talking a gunline built for anti horde.
I think shooting needs to be better in the abstract than melee, because once you get to melee you are usually stuck there and the melee unit will win. The shooting unit only has a limited window before that happens to stand a chance of winning. In my opinion you should have to use specialised units to disrupt the gunline to have a chance of getting your melee units in more or less unscathed.
You have the priorities completely backwards. In abstrac meele should be better than shoting because is much harder to reach meele reliably than to shoot things. (And I'm a Tau player). Even more in 8th with things like falling back, Fly, etc...
You can take attacks from the boyz when half my opponents special rules dont reduce my firepower to a "pointless to even field" level of bs. Some of us enjoyed mixed varied armies, but screw working with a 6 bs alot of games.
I've seen very few posts and no threads regarding nerfing Orks.
This is the first thread I've read about it in fact since 8th dropped.
Of course I guess Orks need a nerf though, I mean they just keep winning all those tournaments and they have an answer to everything (except negative hit modifiers, flyers, shooting in general)!
Orks don't need a nerf, we need a buff. As a Speed Freak player my entire army is garbage. I don't want to have to run green tide to be competitive, I want to have flexibility like every other race.
There are far better troops in the game than Ork Boyz. They are T4, 6+ save models. They die to a stiff breeze. Their weapons have no AP.
If you are to nerf Boyz, you had better nerf Bloodletters and Infantry squads while you're at it.
I've seen very few posts and no threads regarding nerfing Orks.
This is the first thread I've read about it in fact since 8th dropped.
Of course I guess Orks need a nerf though, I mean they just keep winning all those tournaments and they have an answer to everything (except negative hit modifiers, flyers, shooting in general)!
Orks don't need a nerf, we need a buff. As a Speed Freak player my entire army is garbage. I don't want to have to run green tide to be competitive, I want to have flexibility like every other race.
There are far better troops in the game than Ork Boyz. They are T4, 6+ save models. They die to a stiff breeze. Their weapons have no AP.
If you are to nerf Boyz, you had better nerf Bloodletters and Infantry squads while you're at it.
No joke. In a game in which Orks lost there were genuinely people stood around the table saying orks should never have done that much damage and needed a nerf. I've also seen a lot of people online talk about this and a lot of people say orks should be bad at shooting and need a nerf to melee.
You have the priorities completely backwards. In abstrac meele should be better than shoting because is much harder to reach meele reliably than to shoot things. (And I'm a Tau player). Even more in 8th with things like falling back, Fly, etc...
What I'm saying is that a melee focused army puts a shooty army on a strict clock. The shooty army has to do a certain amount of damage before they are locked in melee or they will definitely lose. It is important that the shooty army has the POTENTIAL to output that damage, though to ensure it they should have to rely on supporting units, such as deepstrikers slowing the advance of the enemy and such, just like the melee army should have to do similar to disrupt the gunline and protect their advance. The skill in strategy is in determining exactly what units will be most effective to do this, and predicting what your opponent's strategy will be too.
Whether melee or shooting should be strongest in the vacuum I suppose isn't really the point. The point is that for the same value in troops, the shooting army should on average be able to reduce the strength of the melee army to the point where the two side's melee abilities are fairly even at the point where they become locked in melee. That would be 'balance' of a sort.
We are talking at the most abstract level here of course, in practice it is far more complicated, as you introduce other units in an attempt to tip the scales in your favour. Ones that are better are killing specific types of enemies, or have abilities that let them do other disruptive things.
In casual settings, maybe 2/3 of my games so far at the local club this year have been against orks. Always close matches and I’ve never felt completely outmatched. I’m interested to read accounts of the contrary.
Aetare wrote: In casual settings, maybe 2/3 of my games so far at the local club this year have been against orks. Always close matches and I’ve never felt completely outmatched. I’m interested to read accounts of the contrary.
Out of interest, are these generally hordes of Boyz, or fairly mixed armies, or focusing on spamming something other than Boyz?
Orks are an army that is designed around having lots of Boyz. The fact that they can essentially bring only boyz and still be competitive is a testament to how good boyz actually are.
Marmatag wrote: Orks are an army that is designed around having lots of Boyz. The fact that they can essentially bring only boyz and still be competitive is a testament to how good boyz actually are.
No, its testament to how powerful skew lists are - which are an inherent problem/design of 8th edition and the way Detachments work.
A "take all comers" style list with, say, a 50/50 split of anti-infantry/tank, will lose to an army that goes 100/0 or 0/100. It's just how the game works.
Ork Boyz are good, but its only when you spam them; which is the only thing an Ork can do, because none of their other units are worth anything; and even then, they win because tournaments time out, not because the list is strong (though it can take random surprise wins here and there).
The only nerf I really feel Orks need is a Leadership cap on Mob Rule. I'm not sure what number it should be capped at (my gut says 15, though I could see it being lower), but it'd certainly help.
Mob Rule doesn't need any kind of cap. Ork boyz are sooo easy to kill it isn't even funny.
Right now, Orks are the faction with the worst morale of the game. I have seen orks lore more models to morale than every other faction combined. Eldar and Daemons are the second ones, and even then, they are way ahead of orks in the morality department.
I've seen very few posts and no threads regarding nerfing Orks.
This is the first thread I've read about it in fact since 8th dropped.
Of course I guess Orks need a nerf though, I mean they just keep winning all those tournaments and they have an answer to everything (except negative hit modifiers, flyers, shooting in general)!
Orks don't need a nerf, we need a buff. As a Speed Freak player my entire army is garbage. I don't want to have to run green tide to be competitive, I want to have flexibility like every other race.
There are far better troops in the game than Ork Boyz. They are T4, 6+ save models. They die to a stiff breeze. Their weapons have no AP.
If you are to nerf Boyz, you had better nerf Bloodletters and Infantry squads while you're at it.
Tbf, Orkz are hard to nail down powerlevel wise due both to the low number and low age of Ork players.
If more people played Orkz than a half dozen old guys who bought their army a decade ago and a handful of teenagers who thought they looked funny on the shelf, there would be a better sample size for army strength. Unfotunately there just isn't a market for it.
Come on, they have one good unit. They’ll be lucky if a squad can make it into cc and even then, if they are glued for a few turns finishing a unit off, the rest of their army is getting killed. Let the orks keep their one unit that makes them a low mid tier army/ even with that still low tier. I’d say if other units got buffs, they’d be mid.
ERJAK wrote: Tbf, Orkz are hard to nail down powerlevel wise due both to the low number and low age of Ork players.
If more people played Orkz than a half dozen old guys who bought their army a decade ago and a handful of teenagers who thought they looked funny on the shelf, there would be a better sample size for army strength. Unfotunately there just isn't a market for it.
A perfect demonstration of someone upsetti spaghetti that people don't agree with them. Does him saying "Sisters of Battle have low player count" rile your jimmies that much?
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As an aside, Ork boyz will have to be reduced in strength considering that (Like all other armies) Orks will get "Reroll hits of 1" as an aura, -1 to be hit as a race trait and potentially more ways to buff them via wierdboys.
But note that this is only 'Slugga Boyz' and not 'Shoota Boyz' - who are not being complained about at all. How do we 'nerf' one but not the other?
..and after that's done, all other non-horde Ork units need to be changed, for the greater good.
Slugga Boyz Sluggas are at S-1 AP0 D1, with the Chainsword Rule. All Boyz also have Smackas or Stabbas, which are SUser AP0 D1, but withOUT the Chainsword rule. So, base, Sluggas get 2 S4 attacks and 1 S3 attack.
Meanwhile, ALL Orks get the "Accuracy? Waz Dat?" special rule. They never suffer from negative hit modifiers when shooting. Fluff-wise, Orks don't really aim. They just shoot in the general direction of their enemy, so all that sleight of hand trickery to conceal your EXACT position doesn't matter-the hail of bullets is just entering your general area. So, while only 1 in 3 Ork shots hit, that happens NO MATTER WHAT.
If Boyz get some durability buffs from new auras, or chapter tactics, or stratagems etc they will certainly need a price hike. Otherwise green-tide will be obnoxious. Buffing the entire codex to match a slightly more durable Boy would make Orkz oppressive.
Galas wrote: Eldar and Daemons are the second ones, and even then, they are way ahead of orks in the morality department.
I'm pretty confident that Daemons never get to claim they are ahead of anyone when it comes to morality - I'd generally argue the same for most varieties of Eldar, too.
What people fail to understand, or maybe they just intentionally deny it, is that boyz won't do that much damage in combat. Of course they're going to overkill over troops but against armored stuff they can just tarpit things.
Some lists are doing ok or even very well in tournaments because the meta is saturated with anti tank. Tons of lascannons, dark lances, dark reapers, etc....
A tipycal Gulliman lists with several razorbacks and 1-2 stormraven can table a green tide with little effort. Seriously just take TAC lists and orks hordes wouldn't be so scary. A mix of 50/50 anti infantry/anti tank isn't TACIMHO, I've always thought that anti infantry should be dominant in an all comers list. In fact with the excpetion of drukhari, which have basically no answers to hordes, I always bring TAC lists with orks and SW that have 70% anti infantries (considering shooting and melee) and just 30% anti tank.
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hollow one wrote: If Boyz get some durability buffs from new auras, or chapter tactics, or stratagems etc they will certainly need a price hike. Otherwise green-tide will be obnoxious. Buffing the entire codex to match a slightly more durable Boy would make Orkz oppressive.
Well I think that if transports and other units get buff, even affecting boyz, greentides wouldn't be so popular. At the moment greentides are common not because they have potential to do a lot of damage, but because they can avoid getting tabled. Only that. A most resilient ork boy will just change the meta, more anti infantry in any TAC list and problem solved.
Galas wrote: Eldar and Daemons are the second ones, and even then, they are way ahead of orks in the morality department.
I'm pretty confident that Daemons never get to claim they are ahead of anyone when it comes to morality - I'd generally argue the same for most varieties of Eldar, too.
Tbf, Orkz are hard to nail down powerlevel wise due both to the low number and low age of Ork players.
If more people played Orkz than a half dozen old guys who bought their army a decade ago and a handful of teenagers who thought they looked funny on the shelf, there would be a better sample size for army strength. Unfotunately there just isn't a market for it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh Erjak you slay me.
Anyway back to the topic.
First off Orks are in no way guaranteed a -1 to hit trait, so don't assume it's going to happen. We aren't guaranteed any extra survivability with traits in fact, since the army ethos is much more offensive than defensive. You don't pre-emptively nerf a unit in case it gets buffed by something else, that is incredibly short sighted and stupid. You nerf something when and only when it's over-performing. Lets look at that, shall we;
Orks are not winning tournaments. Those claiming Orks are outperforming codex armies know they are making a false assessment. An accurate statement would be - the most competitive build that Ork players can use is extremely anti-meta, so in certain tournaments (not ITC) they sometimes perform well. The only evidence I've seen that Orks have been performing well was our 2nd and 3rd placement at the 3rd heat of Adepticon. Does anyone have anything else? Our best player was 55th at the LVO. Hardly setting the World alight.
Look at the Boy statline for a second.
6 pts a model.
M 5" (is there a slower troop?)
WS 3+
BS 5+
S 4
T 4
W 1
A 2
LD 6
Sv 6+
Ere we go (reroll both charge dice on a fail).
Mob Rule (LD = mob size/nearby mob size).
Green Tide (If this unit includes 20+ models, add an attack to each model).
Choppas are strength user, AP0 1 damage weapons that grant an extra attack.
That is not a great troop, it's a good troop, but not great, all things considered. T4 6+ save is not durable, not by a long stretch and particularly when you factor the change in AP this edition. Their damage output seems decent until you realise they have to get in to melee to do anything and their weapons have no AP. Mob Rule looks strong until you realise you only have to focus fire Boyz until they auto fail. Green Tide looks strong until you realise you only have to kill 11 Boyz to remove it entirely.
We have 9 pt Boyz models with innate Deep Strike, +2 instead of +1 when in cover for saves, 6" move but no Green Tide. They are called Kommandos. They aren't very good for much apart from minimum units grabbing objectives and tying units up in combat, they are a distraction unit.
Bloodletters are 7 pts a model, have a 5+ invulnerable save, can make charges far easier, can deep strike and have an AP-3 weapon.
Infantry squads are 4 pts a model, have 6" move, can actually hit things at range or in melee, can go up to S 4 and have a 5+ save. In an army that wants to bubble wrap its gun wagons. 4 pts a model.
It is POSSIBLE Boyz could be too strong if everything else in the book is brought up to a power level of other decent Codexes. Of course, the more of these other units you take, the less Boyz you're taking, and Boyz strength is numbers. So it's probably fine.
It would only be an issue if there are degenerate overlapping auras really, but that wouldn't be a power level issue for Boyz, it would be an issue with the sources of those auras.
Let's just give up now... we all know GW hate boyz (for Mork sake they gave use ranged weapons that were worse yet double the price of Marine weapons despite us having BS5+). Gw making boyz good was obviously a mistake and everyone hates us because we came 2nd in a tournament once... (How does that make boyz OP?). Might as well face it... boyz are going to be S3 T3 with a 7+ save and 10pts each.
IMO orks are over performing in tournaments (by which I mean they occasionally do ok even though the army as a whole is dog-tier) because, as stated above, the only comp build is very anti-meta.
Green tide is doing well because it is rare to face. No one ever builds a counter list because because noone thinks "oh, I better prep for a mob of orks" as opposed to rick and morty or reapers, because orks are currently trash.
If and when ork boys become OP then nerf them, but until then don't kick the army that is already getting the short end of the stick.
Every single army list is capable if building a "Tide" army. Said armies will more often than not be a shooty armies; excepting Tyranids which can be built as a shooty or choppy horde. Pulse Tide, Bolter Tide, Splinter Tide, Gauss Tide, Devourer Tide, and Shuriken Tide will decimate Green Tide; only Lasgun/Autogun Tide and Shoota Tide will be having a rougher time (and that is all at the current state of things). Nerf Green Tide and one will have to nerf everything that shoots, excepting Orks, as they already suck bags o' stuff with regards to shooting.
Elbows wrote: Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.
If Orks get the usual boost that a codex gives them (relics, stratagems, cost reductions, etc.), but normal Boyz remain as they are (or worse, get cheaper), it'll be the most unstoppable army in the game.
Way too many auras/bubbles/boosts were designed for the Ork army without due consideration to all of them being bundled together over hundreds of models.
This is absolute tosh. For one, there is no "best in the universe." Period. Each army has its own fluff, and each codex is written to exalt that army as "the best in the universe." That's why people pick different armies. Space Marines being the "best" of humanity? Sure, I'll bite on that. But the best in the universe? No, not by a long shot. Classic fanboy syndrome. Not saying Space Marines are your favorite, as I have no idea what you play, but your average Space Marine is equal to an Ork boy, not greater or lesser.
The auras/bubbles/boosts for Orks are entirely dependent on range. Half of the time, because you have so many models, you can't spread the benefits to more than one or two units at a time. The benefits we do have are rerolled charge ranges through warbosses, a 6+ FNP through painboyz, and a 5+ invul to only shooting attacks through big meks. If you really want me to start listing all of the units in every other army that just come with base invulnerable saves, I will. Or, we can just move along.
On boyz attacking, if you can't figure out how to kill eleven Ork boyz who have T4 and a 6+ save in your shooting phase so they can't benefit from their green tide rule, that sounds like a personal problem. Maybe think of a different strategy. Ork boyz are in no way overpowered. The unit is pretty damn balanced if you ask me. No multi wound weapons, they strike at AP-1 and user strength, and they don't get a shooting phase that is worth mentioning. The only reason Ork boyz are so prevalent in games right now is because they are the -only- unit in our codex that actually works on its own and can get its points back, and that's only if you can deliver it safely through the first turn, maybe even the second depending on deployment.
Honestly, I would LOVE to be able to play something besides a boyz swarm and have a shot at winning in friendly games, let alone tournaments. I miss the old Armored Krumpany lists, Kan Lists, and Speed Freeks. But until we get a dex, boyz lists are the only real way to go, and frankly they are a hassle. I doubt even the most staunch Ork player actually enjoys moving 120+ infantry models per turn. It sucks.
The statement that those "best in the universe" can't manage 2-3 is false. Looking to cheap infantries with no buffs from other units:
Genestealers have 3-4 attacks each.
Blood Claws have 3 attacks on the charge.
Wyches have 3 attacks with the right combat drug.
Harlequins troupe have 4 attacks base, ok they're not exactly chep but they also have high AP.
Ork boyz have 3-4 attacks.
And I'm not considering melee specialists. With Arjac and the right melee weapon (chainsword or pair of claws) the TWC can have 7 attacks each. Some units get to fight twice, etc....
What upsets me most of this post is how A. it’s wrong and B. It’s Wrong.
As an Ork player who won very few games before 8th Edition I’ve been able to at least compete with other armies. Now I’m trying to compete against my friend’s Blood Angel’s army but have lost 3 out of 3 games.
Tip for people who want to destroy Ork Hordes of Boyz take maxed out squads of infantry or heavy weapons. Devestators are still devestating and I’ve seen Inceptors take a 30 Boy blob down to half in one volley of shots, twice.
Secondly all Ork HQs have terrible saves especially he Weirdboy at 4+. So unless the player is taking Mega Armour snipers will take out Ork buff models very easily.
There now talk about de-buffing other armies and fix your lists. #Salt
DontEatRawHagis wrote: What upsets me most of this post is how A. it’s wrong and B. It’s Wrong.
As an Ork player who won very few games before 8th Edition I’ve been able to at least compete with other armies. Now I’m trying to compete against my friend’s Blood Angel’s army but have lost 3 out of 3 games.
Tip for people who want to destroy Ork Hordes of Boyz take maxed out squads of infantry or heavy weapons. Devestators are still devestating and I’ve seen Inceptors take a 30 Boy blob down to half in one volley of shots, twice.
Secondly all Ork HQs have terrible saves especially he Weirdboy at 4+. So unless the player is taking Mega Armour snipers will take out Ork buff models very easily. It
My Weirdboyz and Painboyz have a 6+ armour save. But then again, a weirdboy is 62 points and a painboy is 53 points with the klaw. And in spite of their t-shirt save, neither will die to 60 points worth of snipers.
My Weirdboyz and Painboyz have a 6+ armour save. But then again, a weirdboy is 62 points and a painboy is 53 points with the klaw. And in spite of their t-shirt save, neither will die to 60 points worth of snipers.
They’ll do their job easily if you have enough snipers in cover. Honestly you’ll be killing at least 120pts with them since A. Orks won’t be able to long range them because of their 2+ cover save and B. If you screen them properly Orks won’t be able to charge them.
Taking out the buff bubbles that Orks put out is easy to do and detrimental to the army. Kill a Waaagh Banner and a Big Mek with KFF and you have just made the game turn 90% in your favor.
Taking out the buff bubbles that Orks put out is easy to do and detrimental to the army. Kill a Waaagh Banner and a Big Mek with KFF and you have just made the game turn 90% in your favor.
I disagree, the weirdboy and the warboss are the most important buffers, then there's the painboy which is cheap and expendable. I don't even bring the banner and the KFF in my green tides, only the big mek sometimes when I field tons of stormboyz. But taking out a biker mek with snipers isn't that easy.
My Weirdboyz and Painboyz have a 6+ armour save. But then again, a weirdboy is 62 points and a painboy is 53 points with the klaw. And in spite of their t-shirt save, neither will die to 60 points worth of snipers.
They’ll do their job easily if you have enough snipers in cover. Honestly you’ll be killing at least 120pts with them since A. Orks won’t be able to long range them because of their 2+ cover save and B. If you screen them properly Orks won’t be able to charge them.
Taking out the buff bubbles that Orks put out is easy to do and detrimental to the army. Kill a Waaagh Banner and a Big Mek with KFF and you have just made the game turn 90% in your favor.
Not really. It is more likely that you have just used 300 points worth of snipers to kill 154 points worth of Orks characters. And then you get charged.
I have played a LOT of green tide in 8th edition, and have never found snipers to be a a problem. Even when they manage to kill a character, they will almost never make their points back.
Eonfuzz wrote: As an aside, Ork boyz will have to be reduced in strength considering that (Like all other armies) Orks will get "Reroll hits of 1" as an aura,
We already have +1 to hit which is vastly superior to re-rolling 1, and it's considered to just barely be worth its points. Most lists in tournaments don't field it.
-1 to be hit as a race trait
Like tau and tyranids got, right?
I think GW has already realized that army-wide -1 to hit is bogus.
and potentially more ways to buff them via wierdboys.
What buffs do you think are worth not firing off an almost guaranteed D6 smite? Warpath worse unless you buff a mob at full strength.
People know so little about orks and yet call for nerfs, it feels like they are trolling.
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Marmatag wrote: Orks are an army that is designed around having lots of Boyz. The fact that they can essentially bring only boyz and still be competitive is a testament to how good boyz actually are.
If anything other than boyz would be worth taking, we would be fielding less boyz.
A top tier tournament list at 2000 points in 5th was running 64-80 boyz. I can't even hope to win a casual game with that little boyz in 8th.
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hollow one wrote: If Boyz get some durability buffs from new auras, or chapter tactics, or stratagems etc they will certainly need a price hike. Otherwise green-tide will be obnoxious. Buffing the entire codex to match a slightly more durable Boy would make Orkz oppressive.
I agree, if anything boosts durability, large mobs of boyz need to be excluded. Trukk boyz, less so.
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pismakron wrote: My Weirdboyz and Painboyz have a 6+ armour save. But then again, a weirdboy is 62 points and a painboy is 53 points with the klaw. And in spite of their t-shirt save, neither will die to 60 points worth of snipers.
It's not rare for eldar or space marines to have two units of rangers/scouts as they are actually reasonable troops choices for either of them. There is also TShqs, eldar autarchs with missile launchers that can easily snipe our support characters when supported by another unit that can.
In may last two games against eldar, my KFF big mek did not provide a save for any other model than himself.
1 game with snipers (2 character ones) I lost all my hqs by turn 2. Then in 1 game I saw vs mostly only snipers thr guy murdered the elite army. XD might just be me though as i say.
So the answer to killing HQs? Snipers. Whether it be an Assassin or other groups of scouts.
Anecdotal evidence, my friend has sniped my Warlord Big Mek off the table with scouts by turn 2 with 10 Space Marine Scouts. Sometimes before that with one lucky volley. They would then take out my Weirdboy and Waaagh Banner. That makes back their points.
So the answer to killing Ork Boy blobs? Sheer number of shots. Best if AP -1 and S5 or Greater.
Anecdotal evidence, 3 Inceptors with double assault Bolters throw 18 shots then add in the rerolls they can get from being near a Captain. Wounding on 3+ I ended up with 15 boyz left in the squad.
Too long didn’t read? Start taking bigger squads of guys and stop whining about point efficiency.
What are you talking about? The basic ork boy should definitely have more attacks that imperium CC units, which are usually clumsy dudes with huge armors. Orks live for punching people, they'd defintely deserve tons of low strength no ap attacks. We're talking about max 4 attacks per boy without HQs bonuses. Blood claws have 3 attacks each on the charge. Drukhari wyches have 3 attacks each with the drug, which is the standard drug a player should give them, genestealers have 3 base plus 1 if the unit is 10+ models. 3-4 attacks each are quite standard for close combat oriented troops that actually are supposed to be able to fight and have little shooting or no shooting at all.
so your fine with Howling Banshees having 3 base attacks and Striking Scorpions should get 4?
Because that is the only way they will be worth it...ofc that will just murder any elite army with those power swords....so back to rock paper scissors meta gaming.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can we go back to the days that most models rolled 1 die for an attack.
Picking up 40 dice, rerolling a half dozen ones and then rolling 20+ to wound just get silly and that is like the average unit in the game.
We can save 40 min per game if we rolled like a 1/4 of the dice.
Should orks be nerfed?..... you gitz are having a laugh right!?
Currently orks are a one trick pony, spam loads of ork boyz. Straight away I can think of one unit that will each 30 boyz and then some, but let us first see how orks have already been nerfed by the core rules let alone a codex.
1. shooting: Orks shooting is optimistic at the best of times, like everything else with orks quantity is quality, sadly every git who plays marines I have currently come up again has -1 to hit. Going from a 1in3 chance to 1in6 chance is Rubbish!
2. templates gone: This was a massive mistake by GW in my eyes, it would make it easier to deal with massive mobz if they weren't so easily hosed down by everything. The only armies really screwed by it would be the kind that have really bad bs........
3.Twin linked: Whats that you say, double shots. why I don't mind If I do. This was a great buff to armies with lots of previous twin linked options, but not so good for armies without them, say like... I don't know....Orks!
I could not be bothered going through a whole llist of things, but by now you get the idea
And finally to answer any of you Imperial Zoggers out there, just bring some guard allies with you for orks hordes.
One leman russ with punisher cannon puts out 49 shots a turn, then you laugh if he tries to charge your tank.
Let the Commence!!!
Pretty just echoing here, but boyz are strong now because the rest of our codex is garbage. Just tone down boyz slightly while buffing literally every other unit in our codex, and we'll be good. I have lot of mechanized units, and sadly I know whenever I bring them it's going to be an uphill battle because I haven't brought 180 boyz with me.
We already have +1 to hit which is vastly superior to re-rolling 1, and it's considered to just barely be worth its points. Most lists in tournaments don't field it.
....
I should've clarified that I play Orks, if it means that Boyz need to take a strength hit to see Orks getting some more free stuff as a whole I'd be glad to take it.
Like tau and tyranids got, right?
I think GW has already realized that army-wide -1 to hit is bogus.
Tyranids instead got a permanent +1 cover save which is *almost* the same, and has there been leaks for Tau that I don't know about?
Once again, if it takes Boyz to be weaker to see a "Exhaust Cloud" rule on bikes I'd let them take the beat stick.
What buffs do you think are worth not firing off an almost guaranteed D6 smite? Warpath worse unless you buff a mob at full strength.
Ideally the 'this buff isnt worth it' problem will be fixed in the codex, and if takes Boyz to be weaker for interesting buffs... You kinda get the point
People know so little about orks and yet call for nerfs, it feels like they are trolling. .
It's a design space problem, a 'Large' horde unit with lots of attacks is immensely multiplied by any buffs. Theory craft with me - what kind of buffs (mechanically) would you throw on a squad of 5 nobs instead of a squad of 30 boyz?
We already have +1 to hit which is vastly superior to re-rolling 1, and it's considered to just barely be worth its points. Most lists in tournaments don't field it.
....
I should've clarified that I play Orks, if it means that Boyz need to take a strength hit to see Orks getting some more free stuff as a whole I'd be glad to take it.
Unless boyz get defensive buffs, there is no need to tone them down. Top lists are already bringing the absolute maximum number of boyz, unless some offensive buff is ridiculously overpowered (better than +1 to hit), any buff to the army would lead to less boyz, not more.
Also note that orks are merely doing well in tournaments, not winning or even dominating them.
Like tau and tyranids got, right?
I think GW has already realized that army-wide -1 to hit is bogus.
Tyranids instead got a permanent +1 cover save which is *almost* the same, and has there been leaks for Tau that I don't know about?
You might want to do the math on the +1 cover thing. It's also not +1 to cover, but simply getting cover, plus you lose it when advancing, which quite a number of tyranid units want to do.
And yes, you missed a dakka member leaking all the tau "klans".
Once again, if it takes Boyz to be weaker to see a "Exhaust Cloud" rule on bikes I'd let them take the beat stick.
Ideally the 'this buff isnt worth it' problem will be fixed in the codex, and if takes Boyz to be weaker for interesting buffs... You kinda get the point
Why on earth would you need to nerf one unit in order to buff another? You can only spend your points once, either on boyz or on bikes.
Boyz do not get better by other units getting better. Green tide does not get better by other units gettting better.
"The point" is that you (and a lot of other people, don't take this personal) think that you can somehow take other great ork units, add them to a green tide army and have a better army. This does not work. At all. The more toyz you take, the less boyz you will have, the weaker the "horde overload" effect will be that keeps our army afloat right now.
Theory craft with me - what kind of buffs (mechanically) would you throw on a squad of 5 nobs instead of a squad of 30 boyz?
Easy solution would be stratagems that can only target nobz, units with 10 models or less, models with power-klaws etc.
Or just don't add any new buffs for combat. Between +1A from Thrakka and Warpath, +1 to hit from banner and the Waaagh! aura, we already have pretty much everything we need. Why add another?
I jumped in here and was quite surprised to see so many positive things being said about orks. I play them once in a while and I have about 149 models on the table. I basically play 90 boyz plus 32 Gretchen, and then a big mean Nob Bikerz unit and some Lootaz to peel away tough stuff early. Add Warboss and Bigmek. Its an incredibly simple and fun list to play. Stuff dies in droves so we both feel like we're getting work done. I usually have lost about 3/4 of it by games end.
Orks are just quintessentially fun to play and play against in my opinion. I don't do it a ton but I always enjoy it and if the clean up wasnt such a chore I'd probably do it even more.
so your fine with Howling Banshees having 3 base attacks and Striking Scorpions should get 4?
Because that is the only way they will be worth it...ofc that will just murder any elite army with those power swords....so back to rock paper scissors meta gaming.
I'd be totally fine with that if eldar shooting and psychic phase get a significant nerf. Eldar are already top tiers and don't need other improved units in a codex that already have a huge variety of choice.
koooaei wrote: If you pit an even amunt of points in ork boyz against tactical marines, marines win 9 out of 10 times. How op is that?
It's so OP that it isn't true.
Boyz also beat their own points in any CC unit in the Marine Codex when the Orks get charged. You can charge 10 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans into 30 Boyz and the Boyz will win on average.
Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.
koooaei wrote: If you pit an even amunt of points in ork boyz against tactical marines, marines win 9 out of 10 times. How op is that?
It's so OP that it isn't true.
Boyz also beat their own points in any CC unit in the Marine Codex when the Orks get charged. You can charge 10 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans into 30 Boyz and the Boyz will win on average.
Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.
Let’s take note that Ork Boyz at size 30 have to foot slog or use da jump. If they footslog you have all those wonderful shots against a 6+ armor save for at least a turn or two. Hell heavy Bolters will remove that pesky 6+ and kill even more. Space Marines aren’t Dedicated Melee, I almost lost a squad of 30 boys to Assault Marines, when shooting was taken into account.
If they Da Jump, remember to screen your lines to avoid 9 inch charges.
I had a game not too long ago, where I had 90+ boys, 20 stormboys, weirdboy and ghaz. I also had some other stuff like morkanaut, and one other thing I can't remember. But in the end I got tabled by turn 4. Opponent took chaos space marines with units of 20 and shot a unit off the board basically every turn. He kept them in range of the chaos Lord. Additionally he charged me with 10 bikes, and it doesn't matter that I had 4 attacks each because I ended up wounding them on 5s, after that turn they were below 20 models and lost an additional attack each.
koooaei wrote: If you pit an even amunt of points in ork boyz against tactical marines, marines win 9 out of 10 times. How op is that?
It's so OP that it isn't true.
Boyz also beat their own points in any CC unit in the Marine Codex when the Orks get charged. You can charge 10 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans into 30 Boyz and the Boyz will win on average.
Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.
Let’s take note that Ork Boyz at size 30 have to foot slog or use da jump. If they footslog you have all those wonderful shots against a 6+ armor save for at least a turn or two.
Which only thins down the Boyz, it doesn't change the fact that the Marines inevitably die once the Orks hit their lines.
DontEatRawHagis wrote: Space Marines aren’t Dedicated Melee, I almost lost a squad of 30 boys to Assault Marines, when shooting was taken into account.
Today I learned that double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans aren't dedicated melee units.
Seriously, the only "dedicated melee" army in the game is Khorne Daemons, and even they have shooting. There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge.
Ork Boyz are good. They're just not good enough to single-handedly drag the rest of the Ork army with them as it currently stands.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Boyz also beat their own points in any CC unit in the Marine Codex when the Orks get charged. You can charge 10 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans into 30 Boyz and the Boyz will win on average.
Welcome to 8th edition, where units not equipped to handle horde units suck at doing so. Those vanguard vets would also lose combat to a unit of 30 pink horrors or conscripts, neither has any combat ability to write home about.
Vanilla Marines are just not good at throwing tons of close combat attacks, which you need to shred a horde unit. That's what hurricane bolters and assault cannons are for.
Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.
I don't think that anyone is actually contesting that - what boyz actually have over tactical marines is 30 wounds, which means that you need to hit and wound at least 15 times in one turn to make the unit go away (including moral casualties), while a unit of MEQ gets mowed down by three guys with plasma guns or blown up by a single LRBT.
That's the sole reason why boyz, horrors, pox walkers, cultists and other similar troops are good and tactical/chaos marines, rubric marines, strike squads and other elite-ish troops are not. While most units suffer from both high quality and high quantity of attacks, cheap horde units are basically immune to quality and only care for quantity.
Bottom line, if an army would bring 3 units of boyz (maybe even in battewagon or trukks) instead of 8+ (counting kommandoz and stormboyz as boyz), the whole strength of boyz would go away as any decent army can easily delete a unit of 30 boyz per turn.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: Pretty sure deathguard are M4. And necrons are M5 as well.
So yes, there is a slower troop
Pox walkers are 4", plague marines are 5". There is a DG character with an aura for rolling 2d6, pick highest for advances, so they tend to be faster than boyz.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge
I wouldn't call 41 S4 AP0 attacks on WS3+ "loaded out excusively for horde cleaning". There is a decent chance you might fail to kill 10 GEQ with that.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge
I wouldn't call 41 S4 AP0 attacks on WS3+ "loaded out excusively for horde cleaning". There is a decent chance you might fail to kill 10 GEQ with that.
Hence why they're bad, but they're still the best anti-horde melee option available to Vanilla Marines.
Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.
I don't think that anyone is actually contesting that - what boyz actually have over tactical marines is 30 wounds, which means that you need to hit and wound at least 15 times in one turn to make the unit go away (including moral casualties), while a unit of MEQ gets mowed down by three guys with plasma guns or blown up by a single LRBT.
That's the sole reason why boyz, horrors, pox walkers, cultists and other similar troops are good and tactical/chaos marines, rubric marines, strike squads and other elite-ish troops are not. While most units suffer from both high quality and high quantity of attacks, cheap horde units are basically immune to quality and only care for quantity.
Bottom line, if an army would bring 3 units of boyz (maybe even in battewagon or trukks) instead of 8+ (counting kommandoz and stormboyz as boyz), the whole strength of boyz would go away as any decent army can easily delete a unit of 30 boyz per turn.
.
That's assuming that the anti-horde firepower wouldn't be needed to kill the other units after they get buffed, but that's a fair point.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Pretty sure deathguard are M4. And necrons are M5 as well.
So yes, there is a slower troop
Pox walkers are 4", plague marines are 5". There is a DG character with an aura for rolling 2d6, pick highest for advances, so they tend to be faster than boyz.
Huh, strange. They were M4 in Dark Millenium, iirc. Must have changed it in the codex.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge
I wouldn't call 41 S4 AP0 attacks on WS3+ "loaded out excusively for horde cleaning". There is a decent chance you might fail to kill 10 GEQ with that.
Hence why they're bad, but they're still the best anti-horde melee option available to Vanilla Marines.
I know you're a templar player, but currently nothing in the vanilla codex is good at fighting anything in melee unless it's a character or a dread.
Just drive/fly/walk/waddle your tons of bolter shots platform of choice close to the horde unit you want gone and unload.
The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.
Ive won a few tournaments with my orkz, this latest one I remember the most clearly so I will rehash the jist of lists as best I can.
First off, My list was 90 Kommandos and 90 Boyz and some weirdboyz and minor stuff like some stormboyz and what not.
My first opponent was an Eldar Player who brought LOTS of anti-vehicle weapons and was extremely ticked off he drew a horde player for Game 1. I was able to kill everything but his stupid vehicles which boyz just can't kill. I had all the objectives and had Slay the warlord and linebreaker, he had First blood (Go figure) Major victory for me.
2nd Game was against a SM Player who brought nothing but tanks and dreadz and the minimum number of infantry to make the list legal. I tied up all his vehicles turn 1 with Kommandos and then held every objective while he tried his hardest to get his expensive land raiders (he had 2) out of CC with my Cheap throw away infantry. The game ended with him mostly intact and a lot of my boyz dead but I had all the objectives, first blood and slay the warlord as well as Linebreaker. Major Victory.
Game 3 was against a Chaos player who brought 3 Demon Princes and a plethora of Demonic Vehicles. I Killed his Demons with Boyz/kommandos and weirdboyz and tied everything else up in CC. I had all the objectives but 1 and had all other markers again. Major victory.
Do you know why I won so much against those 3 different lists? Because most of their shooting was Anti-Tank and did well against everyone else who brought tons of Vehicles but did piss poor against 220 Boyz style models. Go figure a list that features more Lascannons then Heavy bolters is going to do poorly against a horde.
I also played a game over the weekend against a SM Gunline who brought Asscan Razorbacks and lots of bolters/stormbolters/hurricane bolters. I conceded turn 3 because my mobz were obliterated. He didn't know he was facing me as we just decided to play at the store after my scheduled game.
Boyz do not need a nerf, They are doing well because they are anti-meta and it annoys players like the ones in my tournament because they want their tournament list to be a TAC list when in reality its anti-vehicle and anti-elite/MC.
If my Speed freakz were viable I would gladly stop playing this horde list because its slow and it annoys the hell out of me to move that many models every game, but as it stands, 1 Warbikers costs as much as 4.5 Boyz and my DeffKoptas cost more then 10-15 Boyz each (depending how you equip them.) So why would I take Speed freakz when they are worse in every way to Boyz with a weirdboy list?
The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.
I am, but then so is everyone who doesn't want to play with 180 Boyz.
Which only thins down the Boyz, it doesn't change the fact that the Marines inevitably die once the Orks hit their lines.
...
Today I learned that double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans aren't dedicated melee units.
Seriously, the only "dedicated melee" army in the game is Khorne Daemons, and even they have shooting. There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge.
Ork Boyz are good. They're just not good enough to single-handedly drag the rest of the Ork army with them as it currently stands.
Thinning down boyz is what you need to do! Thin the ranks and then destroy the left over pieces. Rinse repeat. If your worried about extra attacks whittle down the ork squads down passed 20 Boyz so they don't get the extra attack. Don't advance and fire, instead retreat and fire, let the Orks come to you.
Math hammering it out for Vanguard Vets with One Chainsword and Bolt Pistol. You lose more points than kill if there are more than 17 Ork Boyz. Similarly if you do double chainsword you will eventually even out against a squad of 30 Boyz. So how do you combat this? Thin out the Ork Boyz with range weapons before you charge!
And be sure to take buff HQs like LTs and Captains who let you re-roll. That's where Imperium bests Orks.
koooaei wrote: If you pit an even amunt of points in ork boyz against tactical marines, marines win 9 out of 10 times. How op is that?
It's so OP that it isn't true.
It IS true. We've tested it. We can perform a quick test with you in tabletop simulator if you want. So that you'll see it yourself. Also, marines didn't even use chapter tactics. And there was no cover involved. When there is cover, orks don't even have this 1/10 of a chance.
Marmatag wrote: Orks are an army that is designed around having lots of Boyz. The fact that they can essentially bring only boyz and still be competitive is a testament to how good boyz actually are.
No, its testament to how powerful skew lists are - which are an inherent problem/design of 8th edition and the way Detachments work.
So build an all daemonettes list and do as well as Ork Boyz. It's just a skew list right?
Orks usually dominate my CSMs due to sheer numbers.
Still don't think Boys need nerfing. If anything, I feel like they deserve another attack for footslogging, a la Berzerkers. Just to make it fair.
If that's not going to happen, I would improve the transports / Kans. They die way too easily. And I would improve Lootas / Flash Gitz, either by taking down their price or increasing their BS. I get it that they are costed to reflect unique aspects of Orks, but there's just not enough shooting in general. Makes you wonder why they care about guns at all.
Boyz are ridiculous. Orks don't need a nerf, but Boyz will if Orks receive significant improvements in their codex. The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit, but overall the faction would improve and be more effective AND in a wider variety of builds. Doesn't that sound good?
I also played a game over the weekend against a SM Gunline who brought Asscan Razorbacks and lots of bolters/stormbolters/hurricane bolters. I conceded turn 3 because my mobz were obliterated. He didn't know he was facing me as we just decided to play at the store after my scheduled game.
I have similar experience against SM. Even without Guilliman an effective SM gunline that is played by someone that isn't obsessed in killing the gigantic superheroes that are the new hot is likely going to melt a green tide quite easily. The damn stormraven is almost a death sentence for orks, we simply cannot counter it and that flyer alone can wipe out lots of points of green fellas each turn.
In one of my super unlucky games against the Gulliman's gunline I didn't even manage to throw a single ork in combat for the entire game, and I had 180 bodies plus the buffing characters
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Marmatag wrote: Boyz are ridiculous. Orks don't need a nerf, but Boyz will if Orks receive significant improvements in their codex. The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit, but overall the faction would improve and be more effective AND in a wider variety of builds. Doesn't that sound good?
I would agree about 30 man blobs, not any type of ork boyz units. One of the major goal that the codex should have IMHO is to make 10-12 or 18-20 man squads viable. I don't think boyz should be toned down, but transports should get a buff so ork players wouldn't be forced to rely on 200 cheap wounds to avoid getting tabled anymore.
Marmatag wrote: Boyz are ridiculous. Orks don't need a nerf, but Boyz will if Orks receive significant improvements in their codex. The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit, but overall the faction would improve and be more effective AND in a wider variety of builds. Doesn't that sound good?
Can you explain why you believe Ork boys are ridiculous? Don't you play Nids? Is it because they can actually stand up in hand to hand combat to some of your units?
Say a few things, together with me; "Orks aren't dominating tournaments." "Orks aren't winning tournaments." "Orks didn't have 5 lists in the top 8 of the LVO." "Orks have not been in the top 10 performing armies of the ITC at all this year."
There is simply no evidence to back up any of this 'Orks need a nerf' rhetoric. The only reason people are so eager to nerf Orks or Boyz is because for once we have a dog in the fight. How shameful. Without Boyz we have nothing. If our other units are brought up to the level of Boyz we will simply have a balanced and fair codex, not an OP one. Orks can almostcompete if we spam infantry as a monobuild and people are sitting here saying they need to be nerfed.
I thought people liked Ork players but we are getting all this hate?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: That's an impressive amount of strawmen in one post. You'll note that the very post you quoted said that Orks overall need a boost.
I think this is the definition of strawman, if you read it the post I quoted you'll notice it also said that "Boyz are ridiculous" and that they need a nerf if the rest of the codex gets a buff. Orks do need a boost. We don't need a nerf. It's quite simple.
Aren't you the guy who wanted Black Templars to have a chapter tactic that allowed them all to fight twice in the fight phase? Lol that was funny. Something tells me your suggestion of what is and isn't balanced should be taken with a mountain of salt.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And now you're on to personal attacks. Can you stop putting words in people's mouths and debate like a rational person?
Lol what personal attack? I stated a fact. You were that guy, weren't you? To me that says your judgement in terms of balance is not objective.
I have debated like a raional person and have asked for a shred of evidence to back up the rhetoric that Orks need to be nerfed. I have yet to see any. We aren't dominating tournaments. We aren't winning them. We aren't even in the top 10. LVO the best Ork player finished 55th.
Please though, enlighten me as to why we need a nerf (a nerf to Boyz is still a nerf to Orks btw).
It's probably mater of intent vrs writen maybe not being interpreted the same. I think its trying to say if orks get clan traits of eg +1 armour saves, +1 move etc handing that out to boys who even as an index army are quite competitive would make green tide still flat better than any other ork list. They need to leave boyz where they are power wize and make other units better not just blanket buffs. Internal codex balance means varied viable lists.
What I think everyone wants from their codex is to not be forced into a mono build to be competative at a "medium level" IE not able to win a large tournament un optimized but good enough to be able to take a fun list to a small even and still have fun.
Please though, enlighten me as to why we need a nerf (a nerf to Boyz is still a nerf to Orks btw).
Not if the rest of the units are buffed at the same time. You know, like the damn post you quoted wanted. 7-2+5 is still a higher number than 7 even though you subtracted 2.
The biggest issue with talking about big US tournament is its a heck of a lot quicker to build and play a smaller optimised list than an infantry spam list. Also I would assume picking a slow moving easy to kill points cheap horde army isn't going to allow you to win a lot of itc games by the design of the scoring?
Ice_can wrote: It's probably mater of intent vrs writen maybe not being interpreted the same. I think its trying to say if orks get clan traits of eg +1 armour saves, +1 move etc handing that out to boys who even as an index army are quite competitive would make green tide still flat better than any other ork list. They need to leave boyz where they are power wize and make other units better not just blanket buffs. Internal codex balance means varied viable lists.
What I think everyone wants from their codex is to not be forced into a mono build to be competative at a "medium level" IE not able to win a large tournament un optimized but good enough to be able to take a fun list to a small even and still have fun.
I don't see how that makes any difference. You can bring other units up to the level of Ork Boyz without nerfing Ork Boyz and suddenly you have a balanced codex.
I'm an Evil Sunz player, trust me when I say I want to be able to run something other than massed Boyz. Currently I have no viable way to play my army as it should be played in the fluff.
Again - Orks aren't dominating the tournament scene or doing particularly well in it. If you want to make more Ork lists viable you increase the points efficiency of other units, rather than make our only unit that performs relatively well worse. This is what I'm seeing over and over again; "Orks have a unit that performs well, nerf it so their other units are better!". This is the most stupid argument I've ever heard. You bring other units up to the level of the unit that works well, you don't drop the one unit that works well to the level of those that don't.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Not if the rest of the units are buffed at the same time. You know, like the damn post you quoted wanted. 7-2+5 is still a higher number than 7 even though you subtracted 2.
I see. So we aren't allowed decent troops and decent other choices. How dare we expect both!
Again I've yet to see a reason as to why Boyz should be nerfed. You still haven't given one except your claim that we aren't allowed other units to be buffed without Boyz being nerfed (for some reason).
Ice_can wrote: The biggest issue with talking about big US tournament is its a heck of a lot quicker to build and play a smaller optimised list than an infantry spam list. Also I would assume picking a slow moving easy to kill points cheap horde army isn't going to allow you to win a lot of itc games by the design of the scoring?
We actually do better in these tournaments at the moment because the battles don't finish. It'll be interesting to see how well Orks perform when they have chess clocks and limited time.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Not if the rest of the units are buffed at the same time. You know, like the damn post you quoted wanted. 7-2+5 is still a higher number than 7 even though you subtracted 2.
I see. So we aren't allowed decent troops and decent other choices. How dare we expect both!
Again I've yet to see a reason as to why Boyz should be nerfed. You still haven't given one except your claim that we aren't allowed other units to be buffed without Boyz being nerfed (for some reason).
Where did I claim this? There's really no way for me to discuss anything with someone who can just make up arguments and attribute them to me. I haven't argued that Boyz should be nerfed in a single post in this thread. This is absurd.
The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.
I am, but then so is everyone who doesn't want to play with 180 Boyz.
Here I believe you imply that nothing but Boyz can beat Boyz in cqc unless I'm mistaken? The implication is that everyone who doesn't want to play 180 Boyz is complaining about not being able to kill them in close combat?
You have been moaning that Black Templar can't beat Boyz in combat even if they make the charge. Koooaei has proved that 9/10 times Tac Marines beat Boyz but you just seem to have ignored it or you seem unwilling to use marines with guns. You also said that he needed to accept that Ork Boyz are a "pretty phenomenal troop compared to other codices".
In your response to me when I specifically said that a nerf to Boyz was still a nerf to Orks your response was basically 'it's not a nerf if we get more buffs'. Something about 7-2+5 is still greater than 7? I assume the -2 referred to the Boyz nerf? It's a poor argument because for every thing you take that isn't a Boy you aren't taking Boyz so there is an opportunity cost associated with it. It also forgets about skew lists.
Still, if you don't believe Ork Boyz need a nerf, why are you constantly complaining that BT Vanguard Vets can't kill them when they charge? If you want to make a thread about BT Vanguard Vets, do it. Don't complicate this thread with your overzealous (get it?) belief that BT are awful. Take it away and contribute to this thread or don't comment. Your very first post was entirely off topic as Kooaei was discussing Tac Marines and you decided to talk about other marines for no reason. Off topic rubbish.
The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.
I am, but then so is everyone who doesn't want to play with 180 Boyz.
Here I believe you imply that nothing but Boyz can beat Boyz in cqc unless I'm mistaken? The implication is that everyone who doesn't want to play 180 Boyz is complaining about not being able to kill them in close combat?
You have been moaning that Black Templar can't beat Boyz in combat even if they make the charge. Koooaei has proved that 9/10 times Tac Marines beat Boyz but you just seem to have ignored it or you seem unwilling to use marines with guns. You also said that he needed to accept that Ork Boyz are a "pretty phenomenal troop compared to other codices".
In your response to me when I specifically said that a nerf to Boyz was still a nerf to Orks your response was basically 'it's not a nerf if we get more buffs'. Something about 7-2+5 is still greater than 7? I assume the -2 referred to the Boyz nerf? It's a poor argument because for every thing you take that isn't a Boy you aren't taking Boyz so there is an opportunity cost associated with it. It also forgets about skew lists.
Still, if you don't believe Ork Boyz need a nerf, why are you constantly complaining that BT Vanguard Vets can't kill them when they charge? If you want to make a thread about BT Vanguard Vets, do it. Don't complicate this thread with your overzealous (get it?) belief that BT are awful. Take it away and contribute to this thread or don't comment. Your very first post was entirely off topic as Kooaei was discussing Tac Marines and you decided to talk about other marines for no reason. Off topic rubbish.
Not sure that he proved it but I think thats not the real question. to be fair we used to joke that Necron Scarab bases would lose every round until YOU'RE dead and move on to the next thing. Lol. Scarabs didn't need to WIN a combat. They just needed to be alive after you aren't.
The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.
I am, but then so is everyone who doesn't want to play with 180 Boyz.
Here I believe you imply that nothing but Boyz can beat Boyz in cqc unless I'm mistaken? The implication is that everyone who doesn't want to play 180 Boyz is complaining about not being able to kill them in close combat?
No, my point there was that people that don't want to have to play with 180 Boyz use the same argument that I did regarding the Vanguard Veterans earlier: "this unit is gak, can it be buffed in some way" shouldn't be responded to with "just take this instead, it's good". Responding to me pointing out that Ork Boyz already counter a lot of elite melee units simply by existing with "just shoot them" is about as helpful as answering the question "how do I make Deffkoptas good?" with "take more Boyz instead".
You have been moaning that Black Templar can't beat Boyz in combat even if they make the charge. Koooaei has proved that 9/10 times Tac Marines beat Boyz but you just seem to have ignored it or you seem unwilling to use marines with guns.
"Proven"? Where? We have his word against mine so far. And, again, the point wasn't that Ork Boyz are somehow invincible, the point was that the people downplaying Ork Boyz, in my opinion, are overestimating how bad the Boyz have it.
An Actual Englishman wrote: In your response to me when I specifically said that a nerf to Boyz was still a nerf to Orks your response was basically 'it's not a nerf if we get more buffs'. Something about 7-2+5 is still greater than 7? I assume the -2 referred to the Boyz nerf? It's a poor argument because for every thing you take that isn't a Boy you aren't taking Boyz so there is an opportunity cost associated with it. It also forgets about skew lists.
My point was that if you take the Ork army as a whole, a nerf to Boyz doesn't mean that the army has been nerfed if at the same time the rest of the units get lifted to a higher degree to offset the nerf to the Boyz. Yes, it's still a nerf, TO BOYZ. If Boyz were nerfed and nothing else changed then yes, it would be a nerf to Orks, but seemingly the only one who even thinks someone is arguing for that in this thread is you. There's no one in here that's said that they want Ork Boyz to be nerfed and nothing else changed. No one. Not. One.
Still, if you don't believe Ork Boyz need a nerf, why are you constantly complaining that BT Vanguard Vets can't kill them when they charge? If you want to make a thread about BT Vanguard Vets, do it. Don't complicate this thread with your overzealous (get it?) belief that BT are awful. Take it away and contribute to this thread or don't comment. Your very first post was entirely off topic as Kooaei was discussing Tac Marines and you decided to talk about other marines for no reason. Off topic rubbish.
A comparison of Boyz to other melee units is hardly off-topic when the discussion at hand is whether or not Ork Boyz should be nerfed. That was my entire point: the people claiming Ork Boyz are bad overlook the fact that while they may not be good enough to make Orks competetive, they're still better than the vast majority of melee units in the game. The comparison to Vanguard was to illustrate the fact that there's not a thing in the Space Marine Codex that outfights a Boy point for point, even under optimal circumstances.
Speaking of contributing to this thread, can you explain to me how arguing against points that no one has made contributes to the thread? Because no one's saying that Boyz should be nerfed and nothing else changed, and no one's saying that.
An Actual Englishman wrote: All I'm asking for is a valid reason as to why on Earth people believe Boyz deserve a nerf.
Anecdotes aside do we have anything?
We do. If the rest of the Ork units become strong to the degree that a currently very solid Troops choice becomes oppressive, that Troops choice, Boyz, needs to be nerfed.
An Actual Englishman wrote: All I'm asking for is a valid reason as to why on Earth people believe Boyz deserve a nerf.
Anecdotes aside do we have anything?
We do. If the rest of the Ork units become strong to the degree that a currently very solid Troops choice becomes oppressive, that Troops choice, Boyz, needs to be nerfed.
I was so close to writing an apology for misunderstanding you until you wrote this. Actually to be fair - the apology should still stand for the rest of the points and misunderstandings, so apologies.
The above however isn't even anecdotal. I don't even know what this is? A prediction? A random guess? You want to nerf Boyz if something else in the codex (that hasn't even been announced yet) gets buffed to the point of being as good as Boyz? I got a few questions on that -
Why would this magically become oppressive? Ork tournament lists are as oppressive as we can manage as all we're taking is Boyz. If they can be beaten, so can other units that become as good as them.
Why would you nerf Boyz and not the other units?
Why don't you balance based on actual results and evidence rather than something that might or might not happen?
If other units become more viable, you'll see less Boyz - that alone will be enough of a nerf to them; but to be honest, what you really need to do is remove the +1A per Boy when there's 20+ in a squad. It weakens smaller squads of boyz (Trukk Boyz, Battlewagon Boyz, etc), while making larger squads stronger - in short, it makes them harder to balance. Allow the "Warpath" power be used to make up the difference.
Also, Ork boyz shoot for beans - the only thing they're actually good at is close combat; which per GW, is the Ork armies only design point of note (well, that and Horde). They're not allowed to shoot well, have vehicles that are even close to par with other armies, or any number of things.
If there's a -1 to hit over 12", there needs to be a second version, -1 to hit within 12" - this would allow a unit to weaken nearby attackers, without negating long rage counters. This would allow an armies that have access to these traits to tailor their list to how they want to fight/counter other armies.
Also, straight up - there's going to be a "Best" melee unit - who should it belong to? What model/unit should it be? What force org chart should it sit in? Are different factions allowed to have similar models? [I would say yes, because balance is necessary.] Is there allowed to be a "best in category" (HQ, troop, elite, fast attack, heavy support, LOW) model that stands out?; I would addendum that said unit also NOT be a named character, or it throws off everything.
Are all standard troop choices expected to be balanced between shooting and close combat (say 50/50), or are some troop choices allowed to specialize versus closer opponents/farther away opponents (75-100/25-0)? [Melee vs shooting focus]
Also, Weirdboyz need to lose "Da Jump" - I love the ability and what you can do with it, but it's impeding on actually balancing close combat units, and their abilities to reach combat (speed, deep strike, survivability, etc). Will losing "Da Jump" make the army weaker? Absolutely. But it opens the door to stratagems (which can be priced different/depending on situations/units it's used on), and allows units to be designed as if they won't always be in combat Turn 1 [which is still only a near 50% chance, before accounting for the odds for "Da Jump" to even go off].
Boyz are strong - but they're not OP. At worst, the ability to take them en-masse is OP; but that's the nature of the game now, with Detachments. Which, again, means that if you take anti-armor and I only bring infantry, I better damn well win that fight, because I spent more points on "effective" models than you (in a very general sense).
An Actual Englishman wrote: All I'm asking for is a valid reason as to why on Earth people believe Boyz deserve a nerf.
Anecdotes aside do we have anything?
We do. If the rest of the Ork units become strong to the degree that a currently very solid Troops choice becomes oppressive, that Troops choice, Boyz, needs to be nerfed.
I was so close to writing an apology for misunderstanding you until you wrote this. Actually to be fair - the apology should still stand for the rest of the points and misunderstandings, so apologies.
The above however isn't even anecdotal. I don't even know what this is? A prediction? A random guess? You want to nerf Boyz if something else in the codex (that hasn't even been announced yet) gets buffed to the point of being as good as Boyz? I got a few questions on that -
Why would this magically become oppressive? Ork tournament lists are as oppressive as we can manage as all we're taking is Boyz. If they can be beaten, so can other units that become as good as them.
Why would you nerf Boyz and not the other units?
Why don't you balance based on actual results and evidence rather than something that might or might not happen?
Apology accepted, I think we were both talking past each other, so I'll apologize back. I could've been clearer with what I meant.
Point 1: If buff units become better or new ones became available, Boyz could potentially become better than they already are. As a hypothetical (unlikely, but just for the example's sake), suppose that KFFs went back to their old version where they only needed a model in range to cover the entire unit. A single Big Mek could then cover a much wider area with an Invulnerable save, making multiple units of Ork Boyz much more survivable than today.
Point 2: Runnin on the above example, the Boyz would in this case be nerfed because they'd be the extreme outlier example for the buff in question; Nobz, MANz, and Kommandos wouldn't be as affected by such a buff. Stuff that provides a greater buff to units of greater size would by their very nature be stronger on Boyz than on other units. If such buffs became too strong in conjunction with Boyz something has to give.
Point 3: Because we don't have any data yet. This is all speculation. Orks did place second and third in that one GW tournament recently, but that's about it.
So, i checked back on this thread and noticed that it kind of blew up.
If Thraka was cut in points, if new psychic powers come out giving boyz extra movement or other buffs, if stratagems come out giving boyz enhanced mobility/defense, if warlord traits come out that buff boyz wholesale, if there is a way to regenerate boy casualties to a squad, etc. There are a billion precedents already in the rules that could easily be applied to Orks, that would make Boyz just absolutely bonkers insane good. Which is pretty scary - I would say Ork Boyz are probably the best troops in the entire game.
Consider Tyranids - Kraken's hive fleet trait allowing us to roll 3d6 and pick the highest when advancing - would be MONEY on Ork Boyz. I try to steer clear of the anecdotal, but as Tyranids, i'm seriously worried about Orks.
None of this has even happened guys. It might not/likely won't happen either. Marma above is concerned about mobility buffs on a unit that can teleport anywhere it likes with the addition of one character. Since GW have penned Orks as the "slow" race with that 5" movement I don't think we'll get more, if any movement buffs. I would hope (and pray with my little Orky heart) that GW have the sense to leave Boyz as they are and apply buffs through stratagems, psychic powers and the like to the units that currently aren't taken. Which is most of the goddamn army lol.
Can we wait until our codex comes out, we win a ton of tournaments flooding the board with 90% Boyz and generally beat all builds and kinds of armies before we preemptively nerf Orks please? Pretty please?
Ork Boyz aren't the best troop. They are all cqc offense and no defence. You give them defence and they become too expensive. They are the Orks' best troop (although FLG argues that Grots are better ).
I am not saying Ork Boyz should be nerfed. I am not saying they should be pre-emptively nerfed.
I am saying Orks need a buff.
I am saying it is possible to make Orks a better overall army, with a wider variety of builds, while "nerfing" boyz at the same time.
Pretty sure most Ork players would prefer that. So they don't have to bring 120+ to be competitive, and can actually bring some of the cool stuff, like Battlewagons, Deffkoptas, Bikers etc. Being 100% honest if they made Orks into an army with multiple viable builds that aren't "spammy" i would play them in a heartbeat.
I don't agree that Boyz are the best troops in the game. Both Khorne and Tzeentch Daemons have seriously powerful troops and Guardsmen are better than Boyz as well.
On the "no defence" though, you get 3 Boyz for one Chainaxe Berzerker. The Boyz have anywhere from twice to three times the attacks (!) and better resistance to almost everything, with the glaring exception of Morale killing off Boyz if you blast a bunch of them away. The reason the Berzerker is seen as a competetive unit is because they have a way to get into CC fast and reliably through Alpha Legion infiltration shenanigans. Suppose Orks got "Sneaky Gitz!" as a stratagem that allowed you to infiltrate Boyz in a similar manner and all hell would break loose.
I think you can safely say that the consensus seems to be that "no, Orks currently do not need any nerfs", but that some of us worry over how the Codex is going to buff Boyz without making them completely ludicrous in comparison to most other units.
@Marma Bro you said this - "The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit." Toned down = nerf, no?
I'm an Ork player and I've been relatively active on here since I joined. I've been particularly active (as you might imagine) with threads concerning Orks, particularly the huuuuge Ork tactica thread.
I think I have a decent idea what Ork players want and it's for our other units to be brought up to the same level of effectiveness as Boyz. Boyz aren't OP peeps. They're decent. I don't think if our other units were at that level the army as a whole would be OP.
Anyway, is the answer to the topic's question a "no" then? Do we all agree?
Also, if you're even slightly interested in Orks I think it's all over for you. Sooner or later you'll feel da call of Gork (or Mork).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: On the "no defence" though, you get 3 Boyz for one Chainaxe Berzerker. The Boyz have anywhere from twice to three times the attacks (!) and better resistance to almost everything, with the glaring exception of Morale killing off Boyz if you blast a bunch of them away. The reason the Berzerker is seen as a competetive unit is because they have a way to get into CC fast and reliably through Alpha Legion infiltration shenanigans. Suppose Orks got "Sneaky Gitz!" as a stratagem that allowed you to infiltrate Boyz in a similar manner and all hell would break loose.
I think you can safely say that the consensus seems to be that "no, Orks currently do not need any nerfs", but that some of us worry over how the Codex is going to buff Boyz without making them completely ludicrous in comparison to most other units.
Let's worry about Shrodinger's Orks when they appear shall we?
An Actual Englishman wrote: @Marma Bro you said this - "The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit." Toned down = nerf, no?
I say toned down maybe. It depends on the buffs they receive. But a nerf to me means an overall decrease in effectiveness. Boyz could be adjusted so that they were more expensive PPM, but still overall become a stronger unit.
I feel like i've been perfectly clear. I guess not.
Again let's concern ourselves with possibly over buffed Boyz when hell freezes over and it actually happens huh (this is a knock on GW, who have never made Orks particularly competitive, not you)?
For now there is no evidence to suggest that Boyz are too strong externally. They are definitely too strong internally though.
Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?
lolman1c wrote: Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?
I doubt anything in the game can handle Boyz in a point-for-point melee duel.
Yeah if the Boyz can't pay to interrupt. If the Boyz pay to interrupt point for point they win the fight even if they get charged.
And if you scale this up, the Berzerkers will eliminate 1 squad of Boyz, but then the second squad will charge and kill the Berzerkers.
This also assumes no buff auras for the Boyz, such as 6+ FNP, +1 WS, extra attacks, etc.
What makes Berzerkers good is the surrounding functionality. Berzerkers would not stand on their own as well as Boyz do. As Tyranids if i could add Berzerkers or Boyz to my army i'd take Boyz in a heartbeat.
lolman1c wrote: Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?
well lets take a look, what unit in the Ork index/Forgeworld were people saying was a bit to good before CA came out? our FW Kill Tanks went from an affordable and useful 300ish pts to well over 400. How often are those Tanks seen now in competitive play? GW didn't make them more balanced, they removed one of the handful of competitive units we had, simply because people were complaining that Orkz had something that was good.
I fully expect GW to nerf boyz in some way and then to hand us some crumbs here and there to make up for it. "We reduced the price of Deff Koptas by 5 POINTS!!!!!" and "Trukkz will not only be 75 Points!" Or maybe "Battlewagonz will now be able to have 2 Kill Kannonz!"
Boyz are fine. They are powerfull. Maybe after bonuses in the codex with stratagems, klan tactics, etc... they become overtuned. Then maybe they will become 7ppm I don't know. Personally I think the +1 attack for being more than 20 should be removed. Instead, they should gain +1 attack in the turn they charge. This way you make trukk-boyz viable.
Also. Heavy flamers and flamers need to be made cheaper.
I doubt anything in the game can handle Boyz in a point-for-point melee duel.
You doubt wrong. It entirely depends on who gets the charge and since Boyz are one of the slowest moving troops in the game its likely to be an enemy unit. Here's a few examples of units that can obliterate Boyz in melee, point for point;
Genestealers
Berzerkers
Bloodletters
Demonettes
All of these units move faster than Boyz or auto attack first in combat so we expect them to charge. You don't include a 2CP stratagem I'm when factoring this in unless we start counting other stratagems and units.
The point for point melee duel is a silly concept. Close combat oriented units manage to be in combat for 1-3 turns per game. And ork boyz won't kill anything with a good save.
I'd argue that tacs or guardsmen should always melt ork boyz in a duel since they can shoot from turn 1 and forever if they avoid getting charged. Do tac marines need a nerf?
The overreacting towards ork boyz comes from players that refuse to change their lists in order to counter boyz or someone that usually don't play against massive boyz hordes and is just guessing about the codex.
I'd even buff boyz. In fact I'd buff the nobz leading them, who are very lackluster at the moment and they historically used to do most of the job, or I'd improve the Mob Up strategem allowing units of different type to merge. Like including tankbustas or meganobz in a blob of boyz giving those needed and handy extrawounds for a super shooty or choppy unit.
Blackie wrote: In fact I'd buff the nobz leading them, who are very lackluster at the moment and they historically used to do most of the job, or I'd improve the Mob Up strategem allowing units of different type to merge. Like including tankbustas or meganobz in a blob of boyz giving those needed and handy extrawounds for a super shooty or choppy unit.
Holy Moly, merging Meganobs with Boyz and the like would be so awesome! Maybe it will happen with the Codex. I want to believe! :-)
This was my idea and why i was angry with the dumb mob up strat. It's basically what we used to have and would really help protect hq units from snipers as well. Would be epic to have a painboy mob up with a unit of boyx but you then can only heal that unit.
I didn't thought about HQs. I think Mob Up could have been a great way to make those decent, average or even good units that must have a transport to work quite viable in a footslogging list.
Allowing specialists to mob up with boyz means less boyz spam and more variety to the list.
Marmatag wrote: I am saying it is possible to make Orks a better overall army, with a wider variety of builds, while "nerfing" boyz at the same time.
Pretty sure most Ork players would prefer that. So they don't have to bring 120+ to be competitive, and can actually bring some of the cool stuff, like Battlewagons, Deffkoptas, Bikers etc. Being 100% honest if they made Orks into an army with multiple viable builds that aren't "spammy" i would play them in a heartbeat.
Boyz are not good at all when fielded in units of 20 or 12 to fit them into battlewagons and trukks tough. Those small units are next to worthless right now, so if you nerf them, battlewagon and trukk armies will stay off the table.
So no, I don't think any ork player wants boyz to be nerfed at all.
lolman1c wrote: Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?
I doubt anything in the game can handle Boyz in a point-for-point melee duel.
Mortarion sure can. Genestealers also handle boyz because they always get the charge.
lolman1c wrote: Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?
well lets take a look, what unit in the Ork index/Forgeworld were people saying was a bit to good before CA came out? our FW Kill Tanks went from an affordable and useful 300ish pts to well over 400. How often are those Tanks seen now in competitive play? GW didn't make them more balanced, they removed one of the handful of competitive units we had, simply because people were complaining that Orkz had something that was good.
I fully expect GW to nerf boyz in some way and then to hand us some crumbs here and there to make up for it. "We reduced the price of Deff Koptas by 5 POINTS!!!!!" and "Trukkz will not only be 75 Points!" Or maybe "Battlewagonz will now be able to have 2 Kill Kannonz!"
This is what terrifies me about GW. They never listen to Ork players because we never win tournaments (or don't have a huge place) so their only input is from none Ork players. The Kill tank had no reason to get the nerf! I've seen Kill tanks blown up turn 1 by units that cost half the price and it rarely made up its points. I mean look at CA points as a whole! God damn they made the Mork a few points less and kept the Gork the same points... Really GW? Two units that aren't nearly as cost effective as half of the other troops (paying extraordinary points for weapons that are equally likely to wound yourself than the enemy) and all you do is knock 20 points off.,. Someone once said something that stuck with me. You know you have a bad game when you feel you are powerless. The whole point of games is to escape and feel powerful! And yes there needs to be a winner and loser but you should feel like you have a chance! Not "Oh no.... my expensive mega weapons and half my points just got killed before I could even role for them... Well that's my game over...". In addition, "Oh no... GW just nerfed all my units and buffed units that didn't need a buff in other armies because idiots are upset their army isn't OP...". 40K is the definition of "The Grass is always greener" But then most ork players look down and the grass is actually just dirty beneath them.
lolman1c wrote: Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?
I doubt anything in the game can handle Boyz in a point-for-point melee duel.
Mortarion sure can. Genestealers also handle boyz because they always get the charge.
Mortarion is a tad bit more expensive than boyz
He can plow through 30 of them per turn without ever risking dying though.
What our friends are conveniently forgetting, is that boyz can be shot before charging them, and that a ton of units can actually do so very well. The best assault unit in their codex, the mighty centurion assault squad ( ), can almost wipe out a mob of boyz per turn with their flamers and hurricane bolters and then pummel whatever is left with siege drills if they feel like it. Even when getting charged they will probably wipe out the unit charging them.
But people rather insist on wanting to hammer in nails with a screw driver, and thus nails need to be nerfed.
lolman1c wrote: Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?
I don't know about highhandedly but three of them wrecked a full 30 in a few rounds with just a little help from shooting. Custodies simply wrecked my whole army and they were all in squads of 3 models while they did it.
I can't imagine why Ork boys should be nerfed. It's not the Ork players fault the non Ork play builds a poorly balanced list, It's not the Ork players fault that the non Ork player didn't bring a tailored list.
I've used less and less boys in my recent lists and been close to winning with out them. But the games are do or die. Grot mobs are still my MVP's. Maybe Grot's point costs should go up. we're paying far too many points for Kommandos as it is, their costs should come down to about 7 points per model. The don't even gain an extra attack past out side buffs and their choppas. The real problem is Mob sizes are still too low. 15 or 30 is just not enough! (Kommandos and boys size caps.)
I have seen first hand how quickly an army with decent antipersonnel firepower can take apart the Boyz, and I don't think they are really overpowered, just good against all-antitank/antielite armies, which they probably should be. I just don't think Orks terrible shooting has been properly costed for in the shooty Ork units. I don't really want to see Orks get better BS as its a unique trait to Orks now and sets them apart from other armies, just a points drop for shooty units (and maybe a way to deal with all the "-1 to hit" defences floating around out there - at least the ability to always hit on a 6). Also, a return of 'Ard boys as an optional better armoured troops choice would be welcome...in previous editions heavily armoured units got less benefit from cover than lightly armoured ones, and now this has been totally turned around...)
I would say we have 6 good units outside of HQ. But I have no idea if that is alright, the only other army I play is a soup, so I have heaps of choices there.
hollow one wrote: I would say we have 6 good units outside of HQ. But I have no idea if that is alright, the only other army I play is a soup, so I have heaps of choices there.
Yeah but half of those 6 units are basically the same thing. Boyz, faster boyz and infiltrating boyz. And the most performing characters' job is basically to buff the boyz.
hollow one wrote: I would say we have 6 good units outside of HQ. But I have no idea if that is alright, the only other army I play is a soup, so I have heaps of choices there.
Just for comparison: The Death Guard codex has 30 options, assuming you are playing pure Death Guard and ignoring daemon datasheets and index only options. I'd say 18 of those are good enough to find their way into competitive lists, though some are rarely seen because other options are better (for example the PBC outclasses the predator, despite the predator still being as good as in any other marine army, the plague caster is always better than a sorcerer on foot, etc). Three of those are top tournament material and constantly find their way into soup lists. Another five are not optimal, but still find their way into games, like rhinos, the grenade combo, or death shrouds as additional wounds for Mortarion. About the level I would put our planes, trukks or nobz at. Which leaves about six to be bad, with only two of them labled as "stay away" and the other four being on the same level as MANz or koptas. If you really want to, you can play them, but they won't be great at their primary role.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: In all seriousness what units do we have outside of HQs that are even reasonable?
Boyz. KMK Mek Gunz. Storm Boyz. Kommandos? Tank Bustas (must be in Trukk). Dakkajet? Garg Squig (Forge World)? Chinork Warkopta (Forge Wold)?
Can anyone think of anything else? I'm struggling here.
Gretchin!
I'll be over there, throwing 3d6 of myself into a mine field.
hollow one wrote: I would say we have 6 good units outside of HQ. But I have no idea if that is alright, the only other army I play is a soup, so I have heaps of choices there.
Just for comparison:
The Death Guard codex has 30 options, assuming you are playing pure Death Guard and ignoring daemon datasheets and index only options.
I'd say 18 of those are good enough to find their way into competitive lists, though some are rarely seen because other options are better (for example the PBC outclasses the predator, despite the predator still being as good as in any other marine army, the plague caster is always better than a sorcerer on foot, etc). Three of those are top tournament material and constantly find their way into soup lists.
Another five are not optimal, but still find their way into games, like rhinos, the grenade combo, or death shrouds as additional wounds for Mortarion. About the level I would put our planes, trukks or nobz at.
Which leaves about six to be bad, with only two of them labled as "stay away" and the other four being on the same level as MANz or koptas. If you really want to, you can play them, but they won't be great at their primary role.
Well Death Guard happen to be part of the soup I play. Excluding HQ (as we were doing with orks) I would say DG have cultists, poxwalkers, plaguebearers, nurglings, blightspawn, bloat-drone, plague drones, PBC, and Mortarion are what you tend to see in tournament lists? So 9? maybe 8 since Morty is basically a HQ.
I mean "good enough to find their way into competitive lists" stretches my Ork list to 10+ I'd say. But when I said 6 for Orks I'm really focusing on things you can bring 3 units of and not suffer in a competitive sense.
hollow one wrote: Well Death Guard happen to be part of the soup I play. Excluding HQ (as we were doing with orks) I would say DG have cultists, poxwalkers, plaguebearers, nurglings, blightspawn, bloat-drone, plague drones, PBC, and Mortarion are what you tend to see in tournament lists? So 9? maybe 8 since Morty is basically a HQ.
I mean "good enough to find their way into competitive lists" stretches my Ork list to 10+ I'd say. But when I said 6 for Orks I'm really focusing on things you can bring 3 units of and not suffer in a competitive sense.
I don't know, are we on the same page?
Mortarion, Chaos Cultists, Poxwalkers, Blightlord Terminators, Chaos Lord, Chaos Predator, Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Wings, Defiler, Foetid Bloat-drone, Foul Blightspawn, Helbrute, Malignant Plaguecaster, Plague Marines, Plagueburst Crawler, Sorcerer with Jump Pack, Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Tallyman, Typhus.
Purely judging from positive feedback of dakka people and bloggers going to tournaments and doing well in them, with some common sense filter applied obviously. I somehow doubt that the guy with 3 units of melee plague marines in rhinos would continue his win streak outside of his local meta.
I don't really count my own experience valuable right now, since I feel like I have no clue what the hell I'm doing with my DG and somehow end up winning anyways - it really feels like switching to easy mode compared to orks.
If you add soup, even a little, the options explode. Warptime Sorcerers are pretty much considered mandatory, nurglings, plague bearers and poxbringers from daemons are easy CP and great troops, and that's before you even start branching out of nurgle for things like obliterators and horrors.
Compared to ork's 30+ dead options, Death Guard is a whole different world.
I'll be over there, throwing 3d6 of myself into a mine field.
Lol.
Get out.
I think it's worth mentioning that us poor xenos can't soupitty soup up to broaden our options. We have what we have and that's it. We are already more limited than any Chaos or Imperial player and this is true of any xenos.
Boyz dont need a nerf at all. Its simple in my mind. Improve the insane amount of useless units we currently have and itll practically fix itself.
Why?
Because currently X unit is trash, so rather than spend 120pts on it... Ill just take more boyz. Dont want to pay hundreds for a couple hopped up battlewagons? Fine spend it on more boyz. See if those units were competitive those hundreds and hundreds of point wouldnt go into taking 120 boyz, itd be a vehicle or MANz or, Mork willing FlashGitz!!!! Not boyz.
No need to nerf a good unit. Its good. Make us make choices instead auto takes
I'll be over there, throwing 3d6 of myself into a mine field.
Lol.
Get out.
I think it's worth mentioning that us poor xenos can't soupitty soup up to broaden our options. We have what we have and that's it. We are already more limited than any Chaos or Imperial player and this is true of any xenos.
I came into the game seeing that and being very confused.
If we go with soup lists; Chaos, Imperial, and Eldar are the only factions that can soup. Genestealer and Tyranids being close, but not talked about as much.
Necrons, Tau, and Orks don’t have options to ally with that are equivalent to soup.
If we go with soup lists; Chaos, Imperial, and Eldar are the only factions that can soup. Genestealer and Tyranids being close, but not talked about as much.
Necrons, Tau, and Orks don’t have options to ally with that are equivalent to soup.
Ah fair point! I always forget about GSC and their ability to ally. I'm not sure I consider this "Ynarri" thing a faction. It's too new for me. I mean, in my old brain Tau and Dark Eldar are young usurpers to the game lol. I have no idea what an "Ad Mech" is? Wasn't that the robots that used to supply the Space Marines?
At least with AM would be nice - there have been stories of both AM hiring ork mercenaries in exchange for weapons and/or scrap, as well as AM turning against the imperium and fighting for the orks (like von Strab and his troops during the third war for Armageddon).
There should be a limitation on that like for GSC though - the last thing the game needs is imperium soup allying in boyz.
There are lots of examples of Orks working as mercenaries for other armies, and of other armies working as mercenaries* for Orks. Also, there are loads of examples of humans captured by Orks going native/getting Stockholm syndrome/whatever and adopting Ork culture. Based on some fluff I think there's even a possibility that big Waaaghs have a psychic effect on some humans that makes them go all Orky.
*Auxiliaries might be a better term.
I think it would be cool if GW released a book with some guidelines for things like this. I actually think it would be cool if they released a book for allying in all sorts of mercenaries (like Kroot). However, it would probably be best if it was more of a Narrative and Open Play book so that it didn't cause all sorts of weird problems in Matched Play.
I think that Orks don't actually need to be run as a soup army to be competitive. Orks come in such a wide variety that I think they should be able to fulfill every battlefield role quite well without having to bring in other armies. We should theoretically have quite a few viable builds. It isn't working out that way right now, but hopefully once the codex comes out that will change.
No allied for orks please. Screw soup lists, don't let orks be part of other factions' armies.
We already have tons of units, we don't need allies, but our stuff to be at least viable. Instead of allies I'd like a few more new things: a battle tank and a couple of characters, we don't have a named warboss other than the legend ghaz, no named psykers or big meks as well.
Blackie wrote: No allied for orks please. Screw soup lists, don't let orks be part of other factions' armies.
We already have tons of units, we don't need allies, but our stuff to be at least viable. Instead of allies I'd like a few more new things: a battle tank and a couple of characters, we don't have a named warboss other than the legend ghaz, no named psykers or big meks as well.
I'd prefer, in general, more generics (and more customization for generics) than more unique heroes.
Da only ally an Ork has iz wiv his Choppa an his Shoota!
Orks are too cool to be taken as allies to me, they believe that everything the other factions take or use is just a weaker version of their own stuff so except for slave labour/alliances out of convenience/humour I don't think many Orks consider allying with anything, including each other.
Blackie wrote: No allied for orks please. Screw soup lists, don't let orks be part of other factions' armies.
We already have tons of units, we don't need allies, but our stuff to be at least viable. Instead of allies I'd like a few more new things: a battle tank and a couple of characters, we don't have a named warboss other than the legend ghaz, no named psykers or big meks as well.
I'd prefer, in general, more generics (and more customization for generics) than more unique heroes.
But we currently have all sort of generics. General, medic, mechanic and psyker, what else do we need? Some of them can have multiple options like the bike or the megarmor. Maybe we just lack generic characters on jump packs, and customization for the psyker as I'd really love a biker weirdboy. Unfortunately GW is going towards the opposite direction with their stupid "no official model no rules".
Orks are too cool to be taken as allies to me, they believe that everything the other factions take or use is just a weaker version of their own stuff so except for slave labour/alliances out of convenience/humour I don't think many Orks consider allying with anything, including each other.
Blood Axes and Freebootaz have been allying with anyone who pays since Rogue Trader. It's an established part of the background and had rules in both 1st and 2nd edition.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I mean, they got an extra attack at base and I'm pretty sure they have a permanent S4 (which to be fair they should've had last edition). You make Trukks an appropriate price and there really would be much to do against them.
Blackie wrote: No allied for orks please. Screw soup lists, don't let orks be part of other factions' armies.
We already have tons of units, we don't need allies, but our stuff to be at least viable. Instead of allies I'd like a few more new things: a battle tank and a couple of characters, we don't have a named warboss other than the legend ghaz, no named psykers or big meks as well.
I'd prefer, in general, more generics (and more customization for generics) than more unique heroes.
But we currently have all sort of generics. General, medic, mechanic and psyker, what else do we need? Some of them can have multiple options like the bike or the megarmor. Maybe we just lack generic characters on jump packs, and customization for the psyker as I'd really love a biker weirdboy. Unfortunately GW is going towards the opposite direction with their stupid "no official model no rules".
I'd like more generic HQs, but mostly for fluff reasons. The Warboss we have now is good, but it's probably representing an "average" warboss when there is a huge variety in terms of size and strength. He's probably bigger and meaner than the warboss that would be leading a small warband, and smaller than a warlord that would be leading a mighty Waaaagh! (in the fluff those guys are often the size of dreadnoughts). I definitely don't think it's necessary to get a variety of different sized Warboss units, but it would be cool.
If they stick a 0-1 per detachment rule on Warbosses it would be nice to get a smaller boss that has no such restriction.
I'd like to see something like this:
Warboss: More or less what we have now
Warlord: A little bigger, and his aura abilities work on any friendly Ork unit regardless of clan. (This could be done with a stratagem, like turning a Captain into a Chapter Master, it doesn't necessarily need a new model.)
Bully Boyz: A slightly tougher Nob/Meganob that comes in units of 1-3 and is an HQ. Maybe give them the Breakin' Headz ability? Not that we really need more morale mitigation.
Warphead: An even more juiced-up Weirdboy. Like the Warlord, this could be done with a Stratagem instead of requiring a new model.
Bad Doc: An HQ painboy for leading Cybork Slashas, Dread Mobz and the like.
(Also, Forge World should make the Meka-Dread an HQ again.)
Really none of these would require new models, depending on how strict GW is going to be about kitbashing or allowing for things that aren't currently spelled out in the current box. They've been getting stricter, but they did do the Grandmaster Dreadknight and they have a unit entry for the Tau Commander in XV8, so I have a small amount of hope. While I'm excited for the Ork Codex I'm more worried about them drastically cutting our options than giving us bad rules.
Again, I don't think it's necessary, I just think it would be cool.
I stole the name "Bully Boyz" from the Waaagh! Ghazzy book. Orks used to have a tough Nob as a 'Lieutenant'-type of HQ option back in the 3rd Edition rulebook, but they dropped it when the Codex came out. I can't remember what this HQ option was called. If I remember correctly every army in the back of the 3rd Ed. rulebook had an HQ that was just a little better than whatever the equivalent of a Veteran Sergeant was in that army, but they all got dropped when their codex came out. If they brought back these types of HQ choices I wouldn't be annoyed by them slapping 0-1 limitations on a bunch of HQ options (which might not happen, beyond Tau it's just a rumor).
Orks are too cool to be taken as allies to me, they believe that everything the other factions take or use is just a weaker version of their own stuff so except for slave labour/alliances out of convenience/humour I don't think many Orks consider allying with anything, including each other.
Blood Axes and Freebootaz have been allying with anyone who pays since Rogue Trader. It's an established part of the background and had rules in both 1st and 2nd edition.
1st and 2nd edition background and rules doesn't really apply now, though I agree both have been known to ally with others and both are considered un-Orky and weird by other orks.
Warboss is really not that great when it comes to damage dealing. I feel really underwhelmed every time my biker bos gets into combat. 4 attacks are just too low for something that does no real damage outside mellee. But i guess, he's not too expensive but lack of invul and 4+ armor does not compensate for an extra toughness and wound compared to marine hq. Boss also hits less often due to no re-rolls.
If you can, always take Ghaz. He's a whole different story. He's like 4 times killier than a warboss and infinitely more durable cause he actually has 4++ and 2+ armor without loosing speed. And he buffs your whole army with an extra attack. He's just great. Biker boss is surely faster but does too little to actually want him in the thick of it. Expect 2-4 wounds to a rhino. Oh, and he eats overwatch, so that more boyz can be left. So, he might still have some use, i guess.
koooaei wrote: Warboss is really not that great when it comes to damage dealing. I feel really underwhelmed every time my biker bos gets into combat. 4 attacks are just too low for something that does no real damage outside mellee. But i guess, he's not too expensive but lack of invul and 4+ armor does not compensate for an extra toughness and wound compared to marine hq. Boss also hits less often due to no re-rolls.
If you can, always take Ghaz. He's a whole different story. He's like 4 times killier than a warboss and infinitely more durable cause he actually has 4++ and 2+ armor without loosing speed. And he buffs your whole army with an extra attack. He's just great. Biker boss is surely faster but does too little to actually want him in the thick of it. Expect 2-4 wounds to a rhino. Oh, and he eats overwatch, so that more boyz can be left. So, he might still have some use, i guess.
I prefer a generic warboss over ghaz who is 50ish points overcosted IMHO. Sure ghaz is capable of more damage but it's slow and with the same cost you can have a warboss on a bike and two weirdboyz.
If you don't mind FW there's zhadsnarks who is very killy and mobile for just 122 points with his 5 attacks hitting on 2s with AP-4 and the possiblity of causing mortal wounds. His only downsize is his ability to mitigate morale only to evil sunz units but wihout the codex it doesn't really matter what clan you chose.
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iGuy91 wrote: Uhhhh....lets wait for a codex before people start yelling *NERF ORKS* but I think their morale system needs to be addressed.
Only abusive thing I see is da-jumping tons of boys, but otherwise, outside of that, what do they really have? So no, don't nerf.
It would be something really abusive if there was no limitations about the number of times you can cast the same psychic power. If an ork player was able to teleport countless mobs of boyz per turn, then yes, something should be nerfed, but teleporting 30-40 boyz per turn is certainly a powerful combo, but not something that breaks the game.
The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.
Amen, When an ork player says he wants to have a shooty army he's told to shut up and that its not fluffy... But then the rest of the game is supposed to be as choppy as orks in CC?
Id be very happy if we all had the options to play our games how we wanted.
Our thread got mentioned by Mordian Glory I think.... I hope he understands that this was actually made because i think it's stupid people want to nerf Ork Boyz...
The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.
Amen, When an ork player says he wants to have a shooty army he's told to shut up and that its not fluffy... But then the rest of the game is supposed to be as choppy as orks in CC?
Id be very happy if we all had the options to play our games how we wanted.
"When we're told to shut up because it's not fluffy....". Dude, tell them to shut up because they obviously don't understand Ork Lore and Fluff. Great thing about Orks is we have been around for nearly 40 years now! Even in the modern lore you can get an Ork to do anything (he can be anything from a pro ww2 fighter pilot or bomber to a suicidal Ork with a hammer that's just a bomb). Orks have entire armies of lootas... or entire armies of bikers.... Orks are anything they want to be! One ork once blew up an entire planet with a moon or something.... Pretty sure in his head he didn't go "maybe it's unfluffy if I don't charge in first".
The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.
Amen, When an ork player says he wants to have a shooty army he's told to shut up and that its not fluffy... But then the rest of the game is supposed to be as choppy as orks in CC?
Id be very happy if we all had the options to play our games how we wanted.
Where in this thread has anyone told Ork players to shut up and that shooty Orks aren't fluffy? As the one the original comment you quoted was aimed at I don't think it's particularly fair to imply that I wouldn't accept Ork shooting units being good when I've said nothing of the sort.
The GW facebook page is also full of people whining about ld30 mobs not taking casualties from morale. So he might not be specifically calling out this thread.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Where in this thread has anyone told Ork players to shut up and that shooty Orks aren't fluffy? As the one the original comment you quoted was aimed at I don't think it's particularly fair to imply that I wouldn't accept Ork shooting units being good when I've said nothing of the sort.
I don't think that comment is aimed at you at all, or this thread in specific.
Most people that haven't been around for 5th or earlier editions are fully convinced that ork shooting shouldn't do as much as scratch the paint of power armor.
Those hoping for an ork nerf I am sure you will get it. My guess is that GW is going to double the cost of everything in the ork book, and give us a special rule where on a 1 orks lose command points instead of gaining them back like everyone else.
They aren't a real faction, they are the faction for kids or funny guys that are a joy to play and don't care if they win or lose. Orks are the faction you use to teach a newy player how is the feel of the game.
They should be designed to lose, but to lose in a fun way, with a ton of crazy rules and a crap-ton of bodies so the game doesn't ends in the first or second round and his opponent feels it has accomplished something because he killed 100 ork models.
They aren't a real faction, they are the faction for kids or funny guys that are a joy to play and don't care if they win or lose. Orks are the faction you use to teach a newy player how is the feel of the game.
They should be designed to lose, but to lose in a fun way, with a ton of crazy rules and a crap-ton of bodies so the game doesn't ends in the first or second round and his opponent feels it has accomplished something because he killed 100 ork models.
Even if you're joking; I'd hit you right in the gob if I could.
Geemoney wrote: Those hoping for an ork nerf I am sure you will get it. My guess is that GW is going to double the cost of everything in the ork book, and give us a special rule where on a 1 orks lose command points instead of gaining them back like everyone else.
HAHAHAHA... Don't you even dare joke about that! You'll give them ideas!
They aren't a real faction, they are the faction for kids or funny guys that are a joy to play and don't care if they win or lose. Orks are the faction you use to teach a newy player how is the feel of the game.
They should be designed to lose, but to lose in a fun way, with a ton of crazy rules and a crap-ton of bodies so the game doesn't ends in the first or second round and his opponent feels it has accomplished something because he killed 100 ork models.
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
petitflacheur wrote: I do not understand this topic... ork aren't a top tier army... far from that... why nerf us when we bring so much joy on your games
The thread was created because i genuinely see people asking GW to nerf Orks.
They aren't a real faction, they are the faction for kids or funny guys that are a joy to play and don't care if they win or lose. Orks are the faction you use to teach a newy player how is the feel of the game.
They should be designed to lose, but to lose in a fun way, with a ton of crazy rules and a crap-ton of bodies so the game doesn't ends in the first or second round and his opponent feels it has accomplished something because he killed 100 ork models.
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
Fun fact! You own 6X more Orks than GW themselves own!
If you don't know what I mean, I asked GW why we couldn't vote on Orks to be played at Adep and they said it was because they genuinely don't own 4k points worth of Orks... And this explains the last 10 or so years....
They aren't a real faction, they are the faction for kids or funny guys that are a joy to play and don't care if they win or lose. Orks are the faction you use to teach a newy player how is the feel of the game.
They should be designed to lose, but to lose in a fun way, with a ton of crazy rules and a crap-ton of bodies so the game doesn't ends in the first or second round and his opponent feels it has accomplished something because he killed 100 ork models.
Even if you're joking; I'd hit you right in the gob if I could.
The funny thing is that I have seen people arguee that absolutely serious. "Why are my Space Marines/Eldar losing agaisnt orks/tyranids!?"
They aren't a real faction, they are the faction for kids or funny guys that are a joy to play and don't care if they win or lose. Orks are the faction you use to teach a newy player how is the feel of the game.
They should be designed to lose, but to lose in a fun way, with a ton of crazy rules and a crap-ton of bodies so the game doesn't ends in the first or second round and his opponent feels it has accomplished something because he killed 100 ork models.
Even if you're joking; I'd hit you right in the gob if I could.
I'm with you. Let's find another 18 ork player so we get bonus attacks.
petitflacheur wrote: I do not understand this topic... ork aren't a top tier army... far from that... why nerf us when we bring so much joy on your games
The thread was created because i genuinely see people asking GW to nerf Orks.
They aren't a real faction, they are the faction for kids or funny guys that are a joy to play and don't care if they win or lose. Orks are the faction you use to teach a newy player how is the feel of the game.
They should be designed to lose, but to lose in a fun way, with a ton of crazy rules and a crap-ton of bodies so the game doesn't ends in the first or second round and his opponent feels it has accomplished something because he killed 100 ork models.
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
Fun fact! You own 6X more Orks than GW themselves own!
If you don't know what I mean, I asked GW why we couldn't vote on Orks to be played at Adep and they said it was because they genuinely don't own 4k points worth of Orks... And this explains the last 10 or so years....
I know right. lol. I have half a mind to send them 4,00 points painted. 2 stompas and 2,000 points of what ever. Hell, I could just send them 4 stompas. that like 4000 points isn't it. Talk about playing fast games.
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
During Adepticon, a Podcaster played in a Bushido tournament against one of the designers. He asked him why did he always lose? The designer responded because your faction is broken and doesn’t work at all. The podcaster then quit the game.
I honestly believe GW designers would never do this. But the way players react to Orks being brought to the table remind me of this story. It sucks when your faction is regarded by a lot of the community as “easy to win against”, “a joke”, and “always fun to beat”. The only reason I didn’t sell my army was because of how mug effort I put into them.
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
During Adepticon, a Podcaster played in a Bushido tournament against one of the designers. He asked him why did he always lose? The designer responded because your faction is broken and doesn’t work at all. The podcaster then quit the game.
I honestly believe GW designers would never do this. But the way players react to Orks being brought to the table remind me of this story. It sucks when your faction is regarded by a lot of the community as “easy to win against”, “a joke”, and “always fun to beat”. The only reason I didn’t sell my army was because of how mug effort I put into them.
Well the reason why I keep my models is 1. they look epic on the shelf. 2. I play fun games with friends which just make up random rules to keep the game fun. 3. You can do more than just the base 40k with the models... it's why I love table top models. Just because GW tells you to do something you don't have to. If this was a video game I'd have to follow their rules.
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
During Adepticon, a Podcaster played in a Bushido tournament against one of the designers. He asked him why did he always lose? The designer responded because your faction is broken and doesn’t work at all. The podcaster then quit the game.
I honestly believe GW designers would never do this. But the way players react to Orks being brought to the table remind me of this story. It sucks when your faction is regarded by a lot of the community as “easy to win against”, “a joke”, and “always fun to beat”. The only reason I didn’t sell my army was because of how mug effort I put into them.
Sounds frustrating, was it the whole faction or just a poor list? Doesn't really matter I guess.
I shouldn't let silly things bother me. Orks will still be fun to play what ever happens. If Orks did just become the teach the new player faction My win rate would skyrocket. lol
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
During Adepticon, a Podcaster played in a Bushido tournament against one of the designers. He asked him why did he always lose? The designer responded because your faction is broken and doesn’t work at all. The podcaster then quit the game.
I honestly believe GW designers would never do this. But the way players react to Orks being brought to the table remind me of this story. It sucks when your faction is regarded by a lot of the community as “easy to win against”, “a joke”, and “always fun to beat”. The only reason I didn’t sell my army was because of how mug effort I put into them.
Sounds frustrating, was it the whole faction or just a poor list? Doesn't really matter I guess.
I shouldn't let silly things bother me. Orks will still be fun to play what ever happens. If Orks did just become the teach the new player faction My win rate would skyrocket. lol
The entire faction. No possible good build he could do to defeat the dev’s build. Partial due to the faction the dev ran being the hard counter to the Podcasters and that faction had no way to compensate.
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
During Adepticon, a Podcaster played in a Bushido tournament against one of the designers. He asked him why did he always lose? The designer responded because your faction is broken and doesn’t work at all. The podcaster then quit the game.
I honestly believe GW designers would never do this. But the way players react to Orks being brought to the table remind me of this story. It sucks when your faction is regarded by a lot of the community as “easy to win against”, “a joke”, and “always fun to beat”. The only reason I didn’t sell my army was because of how mug effort I put into them.
Sounds frustrating, was it the whole faction or just a poor list? Doesn't really matter I guess.
I shouldn't let silly things bother me. Orks will still be fun to play what ever happens. If Orks did just become the teach the new player faction My win rate would skyrocket. lol
The entire faction. No possible good build he could do to defeat the dev’s build. Partial due to the faction the dev ran being the hard counter to the Podcasters and that faction had no way to compensate.
wait, was this a GWdev talking about Orks? Honestly, I wouldn't put it past the GWdevs to just give up... would be funny if they gave the codex to an intern and he actually made them good. XD
I really hate this "but you have a 5+ invlun...." when most other factions get that (demons gets that... every single model or most of them). Every Single model has to be within 9" for it to work (one of you bases a mm out of the 9"? Well screw you!!!)... it's an expensive upgrade at 75pts per 60 boyz I would say... doesn't work in CC when orks could use it the most... AND IT'S FREAKING THE ONLY SAVE WE GET!!!! 5+!!! I mean come on!!!!
The biggest thing I got out of this thread is the revelation the GeeDubs has so little orks to play with. Need a lot for all the combos and builds to run. I understand someone getting discouraged at the prospect of painting an ork army, it's a daunting task. I'd think the company would have the resources to get around this. If they screw up orks yet again perhaps a donation drive is in order. We can give them an army to learn a bit about orks.
I just quickly added up all the Ork units in Index Xenos 2, and I came out at nearly 5,500 points. This was with minimal units sizes and usually the cheapest wargear choices (I did stick a power klaw on every Warboss). I was rounding and doing a rush job of it, so I'm sure my number wasn't precise, but I would be shocked if it was less than 5,000 points. It would be pretty sad on GW's part if they couldn't field a 4,000 point force.
The one silver lining to Orks getting a bad book would be being able to get Orks at 85% off again like at the end of 7th (obviously I'd rather not have this be the case, I'd prefer a good book).
I like the current Ork morale system from a flavor standpoint. Ork mobs are overconfident at first and them crumble very quickly. Warbosses and nobz violently keep them in line. Maybe the system could stand to be tweaked, but I hope it keeps the same feel.
ProwlerPC wrote: The biggest thing I got out of this thread is the revelation the GeeDubs has so little orks to play with. Need a lot for all the combos and builds to run. I understand someone getting discouraged at the prospect of painting an ork army, it's a daunting task. I'd think the company would have the resources to get around this. If they screw up orks yet again perhaps a donation drive is in order. We can give them an army to learn a bit about orks.
Donation? We should just meet up in GB for a proppa Waaagh! and show them how orks work in real life.
ProwlerPC wrote: The biggest thing I got out of this thread is the revelation the GeeDubs has so little orks to play with. Need a lot for all the combos and builds to run. I understand someone getting discouraged at the prospect of painting an ork army, it's a daunting task. I'd think the company would have the resources to get around this. If they screw up orks yet again perhaps a donation drive is in order. We can give them an army to learn a bit about orks.
Donation? We should just meet up in GB for a proppa Waaagh! and show them how orks work in real life.
The Ork Community already has a huge meet up twice a year at warhammer world. I think the next one is next month actually. I've never gone to it because I'm always busy but hope to go to the one in October. I know the community actually plans on doing something to prove to GW the Ork people are strong and upset at GW.
Sad, I was hoping it was exaggerated. There's hope that they have different armies for playtesting, but I'd be kidding myself if I didn't doubt it strongly.
The Ork Community already has a huge meet up twice a year at warhammer world. I think the next one is next month actually. I've never gone to it because I'm always busy but hope to go to the one in October. I know the community actually plans on doing something to prove to GW the Ork people are strong and upset at GW.
How embarrassing.
No wonder we always get the short end of the stick.
The hell is going on with the studio?! Less than 4K points of one of the most iconic factions in the entire franchise?! What a joke!
Does anyone have a link to the post on facebook, I'd like to publicly express my disappointment.
The Ork Community already has a huge meet up twice a year at warhammer world. I think the next one is next month actually. I've never gone to it because I'm always busy but hope to go to the one in October. I know the community actually plans on doing something to prove to GW the Ork people are strong and upset at GW.
How embarrassing.
No wonder we always get the short end of the stick.
The hell is going on with the studio?! Less than 4K points of one of the most iconic factions in the entire franchise?! What a joke!
Does anyone have a link to the post on facebook, I'd like to publicly express my disappointment.
I got sent the link by the kid who asked the question so i can try and find it again but I was the one who blurred out his name here because I don't know if he would want the attention.
lolman1c wrote: I got sent the link by the kid who asked the question so i can try and find it again but I was the one who blurred out his name here because I don't know if he would want the attention.
Fair enough, I can appreciate the dude probably doesn't want his name all over the internet.
Do you know which post it was in perhaps?
I've posted this on 40k Ork group on FB, see how the Boyz like it.
lolman1c wrote: I got sent the link by the kid who asked the question so i can try and find it again but I was the one who blurred out his name here because I don't know if he would want the attention.
Fair enough, I can appreciate the dude probably doesn't want his name all over the internet.
Do you know which post it was in perhaps?
I've posted this on 40k Ork group on FB, see how the Boyz like it.
It's the 40k Warhammer community fb page.
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zerosignal wrote: I think the reason they didn't want to run Orks is because they didn't want to get ROFL-stomped.
Embarrassing is one way to put it, I guess.
I don't think they player base would care. It would be a good laugh and work out probably in their favour.
r_squared wrote: Has anyone considered that the GW rep may have access to the new codex, and added up the total amount based on the new points cost?
That could be interesting.
That would mean Stompas would actually be like 200 pts!!! And everything else would be like 10pts at most! I doubt this is the case
Tbf, that would solve every problem with the faction.
Honestly, I love that that Stompa is nearly 1k points. And I really hope it stays at nearly 1k points! It's a huge titan! The cheapest Titan GW sells! But it should act like a titan! Remember, it was only a few hundred points off a Warhound Titan before Chapter Approved! If the Stompa kept all of its stats and went down to 4-500pts then fine.... but if it stays 1k points then i want it to become a weapon I'd be happy to bring to apocalypse games!
I don't own a Stompa but I want one! I see it's price at my store and thing "It's only £56 for a huge titan... maybe....." then I snap out of it. I once saw a pro painted beautiful Stompa... it was on bids on Ebay.... It sold for like £30-40 and I was super jealous I didn't bid on it... I won a trukk and a Battle Wagon from the guy so I know it would have actually being worth the value. But it was either a Trukk & Wagon or a Titan... Imagine if someone went up to a marine player and said "Do you want to win this Rhino and Landraider or Warhound Titan for £30!" and the Marine player automatically said "Rhino and Land raider" because they're the better option. XD
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
During Adepticon, a Podcaster played in a Bushido tournament against one of the designers. He asked him why did he always lose? The designer responded because your faction is broken and doesn’t work at all. The podcaster then quit the game.
I honestly believe GW designers would never do this. But the way players react to Orks being brought to the table remind me of this story. It sucks when your faction is regarded by a lot of the community as “easy to win against”, “a joke”, and “always fun to beat”. The only reason I didn’t sell my army was because of how mug effort I put into them.
I had a conversation with 40k games designers that came dangerously close to this bushido thing. I was at warhammer world for their open day I think in Oct or Nov last year and I play GK and Orks as my main armies but I never mentioned this to them. I asked three designers/writer why my two armies suck. They responded with, when we design the core rules certain armies that push the boundaries fall foul of the rules and are hard to balance for eg horde armies like Orks and elite armies like GK. Imagine my surprise when he stated my two main armies. I pretty much rage quit on the way home from Warhammer World. I've tentatively returned to 40k and I'm playing Deathguard, but compared to playing with Orks, death guard feel like playing 40k on easy mode for me. People want to nerf Orks because they want the good old days when you could ROFL stomp an Ork army without trying and now they feel embarrassed to be beaten by them in anyway because it feels like an insult to their tactical credibility.
Blackie wrote: The comparison is unfair: the BW+trukk combo costs basically like a stompa, a land raider+rhino are way cheaper than a titan.
What? I trukk and Wagon is 243 points. A Stompa is 973 points (after Chapter Approved... not sure what it was because I cba getting my index). That's 730 points difference. The Average Landraider and Rhino costs 420pts. The Warhound Scout Titan ( The titan I was talking about. We have to use pre-CA points because that's when GW decided the points for the Stompa ) was about 1500pts. The difference is 1080pts. That's only about 300-400pts difference (which you should expect for Orks). Therefore, the Ork Stompa is a Titan because it was 1K points.
The Forge World Stompa (which is basically just the normal Stompa but with an extra weapon) is 1,219 points. That's 976 points difference between the Stompa and the Trukk+wagon
I completely disagree. If that is/was true I wish they had put that on the boxes and blister packs so I wouldn't have bothered collecting 24,000 points. Makes me feel I have wasted my time.
It's insulting if that's the case.
During Adepticon, a Podcaster played in a Bushido tournament against one of the designers. He asked him why did he always lose? The designer responded because your faction is broken and doesn’t work at all. The podcaster then quit the game.
I honestly believe GW designers would never do this. But the way players react to Orks being brought to the table remind me of this story. It sucks when your faction is regarded by a lot of the community as “easy to win against”, “a joke”, and “always fun to beat”. The only reason I didn’t sell my army was because of how mug effort I put into them.
I had a conversation with 40k games designers that came dangerously close to this bushido thing. I was at warhammer world for their open day I think in Oct or Nov last year and I play GK and Orks as my main armies but I never mentioned this to them. I asked three designers/writer why my two armies suck. They responded with, when we design the core rules certain armies that push the boundaries fall foul of the rules and are hard to balance for eg horde armies like Orks and elite armies like GK. Imagine my surprise when he stated my two main armies. I pretty much rage quit on the way home from Warhammer World. I've tentatively returned to 40k and I'm playing Deathguard, but compared to playing with Orks, death guard feel like playing 40k on easy mode for me. People want to nerf Orks because they want the good old days when you could ROFL stomp an Ork army without trying and now they feel embarrassed to be beaten by them in anyway because it feels like an insult to their tactical credibility.
It's not hard... GW just had no idea how to do it or what to do... I'll admit, it's impossible to make everyone pure happy and fix every balance issue in a game as large as 40k, but many other companies and games have come pretty close to the point not many people even notice. Hell, even fans have done a better job than GW!
I believe blackie was referring to the price of the models; a Trukk + wagon is much closer to the price of a stomps then the imprrial stuff.
Getting a warhound for the cost of the other two would be crazy good value. A stomp and for the price of a wagon and trukk? Meh
I can get behind the idea of a Stompa being a big, expensive (in terms of points) model that is mostly for Apocalypse games. Right now the problem with that is the way Macro weapons were implemented the Stompa stands no chance. So the Stompa is too expensive for normal games and doesn't have the firepower or survivability for Apocalypse games. Of course Apoc games are for fun, and I don't mind seeing my Stompa get blown up, but it's so bad in both settings that I would only be taking it for a laugh.
I am happy that we can get a titan in plastic for relatively little money. That's definitely cool.
hippyjr wrote: I believe blackie was referring to the price of the models; a Trukk + wagon I said much closer to the price of a stomps then the imprrial stuff.
Getting a warhound for the cost of the other two would be crazy good value. A stomp and for the price of a wagon and trukk? Meh
It's not my fault GW priced the Stompa at only £70. XD You should ask them why a Titan can be so cheap. Although... I would have to say... You can buy a brick for only basically nothing... doesn't mean I'd ever want to use it in 40k
Do you want to know the reason why the stompa is so cheap for being a titan? Because it sucks on the battlefield It's basically the orks imperial knight rather than the ork titan.
If he had an higher cost no one would buy it. I don't think there are many people that are willing to buy at even now.
It seems like it might be good for cutting up and turning into other things. Lots of good bits.
I really miss the old Kustom Stompa rules. There used to be so many fun options. The current Kustom Stompa rules got rid of a bunch of the options, and pretty much only serve to make the Stompa even worse.
Do you want to know the reason why the stompa is so cheap for being a titan? Because it sucks on the battlefield It's basically the orks imperial knight rather than the ork titan.
If he had an higher cost no one would buy it. I don't think there are many people that are willing to buy at even now.
I would says the Nauts are the Knights... they're about the price of what an Ork Knight should be anyway and they reach their height with about the same amount if weapons.
One day I'll buy a stompa just because they look good. A lot of the time I buy and paint just for my self than i do for battle.
Yeah...the problem is that for the points you're paying your shooting is ridiculously anemic for a super heavy, you may as well take equivalent KMK/tankbustas for the same points and have a vastly stronger army, partly because its not all on one shootable platform. Similarly, CC wise it's practically the equivalent of a Gorkanaut's output, which for its price is ridiculous. It needs an entire overhaul and price cut before it goes into anywhere near the optimal range.
SemperMortis can you do the same with a more "regular" stompa... with some funny options
pliiiiiz Edit: Euh nothin' ... i had a rough day... sorry for the useless post
Yeah...the problem is that for the points you're paying your shooting is ridiculously anemic for a super heavy, you may as well take equivalent KMK/tankbustas for the same points and have a vastly stronger army, partly because its not all on one shootable platform. Similarly, CC wise it's practically the equivalent of a Gorkanaut's output, which for its price is ridiculous. It needs an entire overhaul and price cut before it goes into anywhere near the optimal range.
You can get about 60-100 Ork boyz for one stompa or something... so why would you not just bring more Boyz?
hippyjr wrote: I believe blackie was referring to the price of the models; a Trukk + wagon I said much closer to the price of a stomps then the imprrial stuff.
Getting a warhound for the cost of the other two would be crazy good value. A stomp and for the price of a wagon and trukk? Meh
It's not my fault GW priced the Stompa at only £70. XD You should ask them why a Titan can be so cheap. Although... I would have to say... You can buy a brick for only basically nothing... doesn't mean I'd ever want to use it in 40k
Because that's what the price of the kit was when it was first released and GW doesn't really raise the prices on their stuff and hasn't done so in a long time.
They've basically adopted a policy of "Old stuff stays the same, but new stuff will be more expensive."
It was terrible back in 7th with the new codex from then. If a Stompa fought an Imperial Knight the Knight won 90% of the time. The Morkanaut/Gorkanaut fluff wise we’re introduced as Ork Knights. Which made it all more surprising that they were not super heavies and died easily by Knights.
DontEatRawHagis wrote: It was terrible back in 7th with the new codex from then. If a Stompa fought an Imperial Knight the Knight won 90% of the time. The Morkanaut/Gorkanaut fluff wise we’re introduced as Ork Knights. Which made it all more surprising that they were not super heavies and died easily by Knights.
Even playing the Gorka/Moranaught as superheavies didn't really help with their performance against an Imperial Knight.
Yeah I know about dimensions, I was talking about competitiveness. The stompa performs like a knight, in fact for what it does it should cost 500ish points, not something like 1000, which is the cost of the knights, right? The nauts are not even comparable to knights Anyway ork walkers are all bigger than the marines equivalent, even the deff dread is quite taller than a dreadnought and I was shoked when I assembled my SW ones to see how tiny they are sitting next to the ork walker.
Unless the stompa gets better rules, and it need to be improved really a lot, it will always a lackluster overcosted knight
40 wounds for 1000 points are not enough, we're talking about a model with T8, 3+ save and no invuln. I don't have the titans profile with me but I think they're way more resilient.
And for 1000 points you can field 2 baneblades or 2 imperial knight for a grand total of 52W with the tanks and 48 plus invluns with the knights. I don't even want to start saying how killy these imperial LoW are comparing to a single stompa
Sorry if this is unrelated, but to me the Stompa looks like one of those fat sleepy children in anime. You know, the ones with the slit eyes that roll around on the floor for comedy relief? Or just a Snorlax, that too.
lliu wrote: Sorry if this is unrelated, but to me the Stompa looks like one of those fat sleepy children in anime. You know, the ones with the slit eyes that roll around on the floor for comedy relief? Or just a Snorlax, that too.
Orks are one of the weaker armies in the game right now, consistently not winning anything in the tournament scenes. Purist marine armies, imperial soup armies, purist guard armies, eldar, chaos soup and chaos purists, all do better than Orks. If Orks need to be nerfed, then all these stronger armies need to be nerfed harder.
about the stompa.. i think it should be more around the 600-650 pts range, and lose some randomnes by changing the weapons from heavy 2D6 to Heavy15 or so. And give it grott gunners for the BS4+.
I never tested it that way (i only use him as terrain) but this could fix it IMO
Yeah...the problem is that for the points you're paying your shooting is ridiculously anemic for a super heavy, you may as well take equivalent KMK/tankbustas for the same points and have a vastly stronger army, partly because its not all on one shootable platform. Similarly, CC wise it's practically the equivalent of a Gorkanaut's output, which for its price is ridiculous. It needs an entire overhaul and price cut before it goes into anywhere near the optimal range.
For the same price as 1 stompa you can take 23 KMK Mek Gunz which put out 80-81 S8 AP-3 D3 damage shots a turn on average and have a grand total of 138 wounds on the KMKs and 115 wounds on the Grotz.
And keep in mind that the crew and the Gun are separate entities once deployed so you have 46 units compared to 1 for the Stompa, so overkill will happen.
If I had the money/time and complete lack of conscious, I would field an Ork Army of 90 Boyz, a couple big mekz and 30 KMK Mek gunz
Yeah...the problem is that for the points you're paying your shooting is ridiculously anemic for a super heavy, you may as well take equivalent KMK/tankbustas for the same points and have a vastly stronger army, partly because its not all on one shootable platform. Similarly, CC wise it's practically the equivalent of a Gorkanaut's output, which for its price is ridiculous. It needs an entire overhaul and price cut before it goes into anywhere near the optimal range.
For the same price as 1 stompa you can take 23 KMK Mek Gunz which put out 80-81 S8 AP-3 D3 damage shots a turn on average and have a grand total of 138 wounds on the KMKs and 115 wounds on the Grotz.
And keep in mind that the crew and the Gun are separate entities once deployed so you have 46 units compared to 1 for the Stompa, so overkill will happen.
If I had the money/time and complete lack of conscious, I would field an Ork Army of 90 Boyz, a couple big mekz and 30 KMK Mek gunz
23 KMK's! But would it work? I think this is worth looking into. KMK's to the Max with as many boys in big mobs as possible. Heck. If I proxy I'm over half way there!
