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Boyz are ridiculous. Orks don't need a nerf, but Boyz will if Orks receive significant improvements in their codex. The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit, but overall the faction would improve and be more effective AND in a wider variety of builds. Doesn't that sound good?

SemperMortis wrote:

I also played a game over the weekend against a SM Gunline who brought Asscan Razorbacks and lots of bolters/stormbolters/hurricane bolters. I conceded turn 3 because my mobz were obliterated. He didn't know he was facing me as we just decided to play at the store after my scheduled game.

I have similar experience against SM. Even without Guilliman an effective SM gunline that is played by someone that isn't obsessed in killing the gigantic superheroes that are the new hot is likely going to melt a green tide quite easily. The damn stormraven is almost a death sentence for orks, we simply cannot counter it and that flyer alone can wipe out lots of points of green fellas each turn.

In one of my super unlucky games against the Gulliman's gunline I didn't even manage to throw a single ork in combat for the entire game, and I had 180 bodies plus the buffing characters


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Boyz are ridiculous. Orks don't need a nerf, but Boyz will if Orks receive significant improvements in their codex. The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit, but overall the faction would improve and be more effective AND in a wider variety of builds. Doesn't that sound good?

I would agree about 30 man blobs, not any type of ork boyz units. One of the major goal that the codex should have IMHO is to make 10-12 or 18-20 man squads viable. I don't think boyz should be toned down, but transports should get a buff so ork players wouldn't be forced to rely on 200 cheap wounds to avoid getting tabled anymore.

 Marmatag wrote:
Boyz are ridiculous. Orks don't need a nerf, but Boyz will if Orks receive significant improvements in their codex. The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit, but overall the faction would improve and be more effective AND in a wider variety of builds. Doesn't that sound good?

Can you explain why you believe Ork boys are ridiculous? Don't you play Nids? Is it because they can actually stand up in hand to hand combat to some of your units?

Say a few things, together with me; "Orks aren't dominating tournaments." "Orks aren't winning tournaments." "Orks didn't have 5 lists in the top 8 of the LVO." "Orks have not been in the top 10 performing armies of the ITC at all this year."

There is simply no evidence to back up any of this 'Orks need a nerf' rhetoric. The only reason people are so eager to nerf Orks or Boyz is because for once we have a dog in the fight. How shameful. Without Boyz we have nothing. If our other units are brought up to the level of Boyz we will simply have a balanced and fair codex, not an OP one. Orks can almost compete if we spam infantry as a monobuild and people are sitting here saying they need to be nerfed.

I thought people liked Ork players but we are getting all this hate?

That's an impressive amount of strawmen in one post. You'll note that the very post you quoted said that Orks overall need a boost.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's an impressive amount of strawmen in one post. You'll note that the very post you quoted said that Orks overall need a boost.

I think this is the definition of strawman, if you read it the post I quoted you'll notice it also said that "Boyz are ridiculous" and that they need a nerf if the rest of the codex gets a buff. Orks do need a boost. We don't need a nerf. It's quite simple.

Aren't you the guy who wanted Black Templars to have a chapter tactic that allowed them all to fight twice in the fight phase? Lol that was funny. Something tells me your suggestion of what is and isn't balanced should be taken with a mountain of salt.

And now you're on to personal attacks. Can you stop putting words in people's mouths and debate like a rational person?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And now you're on to personal attacks. Can you stop putting words in people's mouths and debate like a rational person?

Lol what personal attack? I stated a fact. You were that guy, weren't you? To me that says your judgement in terms of balance is not objective.

I have debated like a raional person and have asked for a shred of evidence to back up the rhetoric that Orks need to be nerfed. I have yet to see any. We aren't dominating tournaments. We aren't winning them. We aren't even in the top 10. LVO the best Ork player finished 55th.

Please though, enlighten me as to why we need a nerf (a nerf to Boyz is still a nerf to Orks btw).

It's probably mater of intent vrs writen maybe not being interpreted the same. I think its trying to say if orks get clan traits of eg +1 armour saves, +1 move etc handing that out to boys who even as an index army are quite competitive would make green tide still flat better than any other ork list. They need to leave boyz where they are power wize and make other units better not just blanket buffs. Internal codex balance means varied viable lists.

What I think everyone wants from their codex is to not be forced into a mono build to be competative at a "medium level" IE not able to win a large tournament un optimized but good enough to be able to take a fun list to a small even and still have fun.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Please though, enlighten me as to why we need a nerf (a nerf to Boyz is still a nerf to Orks btw).

Not if the rest of the units are buffed at the same time. You know, like the damn post you quoted wanted. 7-2+5 is still a higher number than 7 even though you subtracted 2.

The biggest issue with talking about big US tournament is its a heck of a lot quicker to build and play a smaller optimised list than an infantry spam list. Also I would assume picking a slow moving easy to kill points cheap horde army isn't going to allow you to win a lot of itc games by the design of the scoring?

Ice_can wrote:
It's probably mater of intent vrs writen maybe not being interpreted the same. I think its trying to say if orks get clan traits of eg +1 armour saves, +1 move etc handing that out to boys who even as an index army are quite competitive would make green tide still flat better than any other ork list. They need to leave boyz where they are power wize and make other units better not just blanket buffs. Internal codex balance means varied viable lists.

What I think everyone wants from their codex is to not be forced into a mono build to be competative at a "medium level" IE not able to win a large tournament un optimized but good enough to be able to take a fun list to a small even and still have fun.

I don't see how that makes any difference. You can bring other units up to the level of Ork Boyz without nerfing Ork Boyz and suddenly you have a balanced codex.

I'm an Evil Sunz player, trust me when I say I want to be able to run something other than massed Boyz. Currently I have no viable way to play my army as it should be played in the fluff.

Again - Orks aren't dominating the tournament scene or doing particularly well in it. If you want to make more Ork lists viable you increase the points efficiency of other units, rather than make our only unit that performs relatively well worse. This is what I'm seeing over and over again; "Orks have a unit that performs well, nerf it so their other units are better!". This is the most stupid argument I've ever heard. You bring other units up to the level of the unit that works well, you don't drop the one unit that works well to the level of those that don't.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not if the rest of the units are buffed at the same time. You know, like the damn post you quoted wanted. 7-2+5 is still a higher number than 7 even though you subtracted 2.

I see. So we aren't allowed decent troops and decent other choices. How dare we expect both!

Again I've yet to see a reason as to why Boyz should be nerfed. You still haven't given one except your claim that we aren't allowed other units to be buffed without Boyz being nerfed (for some reason).

Ice_can wrote:
The biggest issue with talking about big US tournament is its a heck of a lot quicker to build and play a smaller optimised list than an infantry spam list. Also I would assume picking a slow moving easy to kill points cheap horde army isn't going to allow you to win a lot of itc games by the design of the scoring?

We actually do better in these tournaments at the moment because the battles don't finish. It'll be interesting to see how well Orks perform when they have chess clocks and limited time.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not if the rest of the units are buffed at the same time. You know, like the damn post you quoted wanted. 7-2+5 is still a higher number than 7 even though you subtracted 2.

I see. So we aren't allowed decent troops and decent other choices. How dare we expect both!

Again I've yet to see a reason as to why Boyz should be nerfed. You still haven't given one except your claim that we aren't allowed other units to be buffed without Boyz being nerfed (for some reason).

Where did I claim this? There's really no way for me to discuss anything with someone who can just make up arguments and attribute them to me. I haven't argued that Boyz should be nerfed in a single post in this thread. This is absurd.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.

I am, but then so is everyone who doesn't want to play with 180 Boyz.

Here I believe you imply that nothing but Boyz can beat Boyz in cqc unless I'm mistaken? The implication is that everyone who doesn't want to play 180 Boyz is complaining about not being able to kill them in close combat?

You have been moaning that Black Templar can't beat Boyz in combat even if they make the charge. Koooaei has proved that 9/10 times Tac Marines beat Boyz but you just seem to have ignored it or you seem unwilling to use marines with guns. You also said that he needed to accept that Ork Boyz are a "pretty phenomenal troop compared to other codices".

In your response to me when I specifically said that a nerf to Boyz was still a nerf to Orks your response was basically 'it's not a nerf if we get more buffs'. Something about 7-2+5 is still greater than 7? I assume the -2 referred to the Boyz nerf? It's a poor argument because for every thing you take that isn't a Boy you aren't taking Boyz so there is an opportunity cost associated with it. It also forgets about skew lists.

Still, if you don't believe Ork Boyz need a nerf, why are you constantly complaining that BT Vanguard Vets can't kill them when they charge? If you want to make a thread about BT Vanguard Vets, do it. Don't complicate this thread with your overzealous (get it?) belief that BT are awful. Take it away and contribute to this thread or don't comment. Your very first post was entirely off topic as Kooaei was discussing Tac Marines and you decided to talk about other marines for no reason. Off topic rubbish.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.

I am, but then so is everyone who doesn't want to play with 180 Boyz.

Here I believe you imply that nothing but Boyz can beat Boyz in cqc unless I'm mistaken? The implication is that everyone who doesn't want to play 180 Boyz is complaining about not being able to kill them in close combat?

You have been moaning that Black Templar can't beat Boyz in combat even if they make the charge. Koooaei has proved that 9/10 times Tac Marines beat Boyz but you just seem to have ignored it or you seem unwilling to use marines with guns. You also said that he needed to accept that Ork Boyz are a "pretty phenomenal troop compared to other codices".

In your response to me when I specifically said that a nerf to Boyz was still a nerf to Orks your response was basically 'it's not a nerf if we get more buffs'. Something about 7-2+5 is still greater than 7? I assume the -2 referred to the Boyz nerf? It's a poor argument because for every thing you take that isn't a Boy you aren't taking Boyz so there is an opportunity cost associated with it. It also forgets about skew lists.

Still, if you don't believe Ork Boyz need a nerf, why are you constantly complaining that BT Vanguard Vets can't kill them when they charge? If you want to make a thread about BT Vanguard Vets, do it. Don't complicate this thread with your overzealous (get it?) belief that BT are awful. Take it away and contribute to this thread or don't comment. Your very first post was entirely off topic as Kooaei was discussing Tac Marines and you decided to talk about other marines for no reason. Off topic rubbish.

Not sure that he proved it but I think thats not the real question. to be fair we used to joke that Necron Scarab bases would lose every round until YOU'RE dead and move on to the next thing. Lol. Scarabs didn't need to WIN a combat. They just needed to be alive after you aren't.

Just some perspective is all.

All I'm asking for is a valid reason as to why on Earth people believe Boyz deserve a nerf.

Anecdotes aside do we have anything?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.

I am, but then so is everyone who doesn't want to play with 180 Boyz.

Here I believe you imply that nothing but Boyz can beat Boyz in cqc unless I'm mistaken? The implication is that everyone who doesn't want to play 180 Boyz is complaining about not being able to kill them in close combat?

No, my point there was that people that don't want to have to play with 180 Boyz use the same argument that I did regarding the Vanguard Veterans earlier: "this unit is gak, can it be buffed in some way" shouldn't be responded to with "just take this instead, it's good". Responding to me pointing out that Ork Boyz already counter a lot of elite melee units simply by existing with "just shoot them" is about as helpful as answering the question "how do I make Deffkoptas good?" with "take more Boyz instead".

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


You have been moaning that Black Templar can't beat Boyz in combat even if they make the charge. Koooaei has proved that 9/10 times Tac Marines beat Boyz but you just seem to have ignored it or you seem unwilling to use marines with guns.

"Proven"? Where? We have his word against mine so far. And, again, the point wasn't that Ork Boyz are somehow invincible, the point was that the people downplaying Ork Boyz, in my opinion, are overestimating how bad the Boyz have it.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
In your response to me when I specifically said that a nerf to Boyz was still a nerf to Orks your response was basically 'it's not a nerf if we get more buffs'. Something about 7-2+5 is still greater than 7? I assume the -2 referred to the Boyz nerf? It's a poor argument because for every thing you take that isn't a Boy you aren't taking Boyz so there is an opportunity cost associated with it. It also forgets about skew lists.

My point was that if you take the Ork army as a whole, a nerf to Boyz doesn't mean that the army has been nerfed if at the same time the rest of the units get lifted to a higher degree to offset the nerf to the Boyz. Yes, it's still a nerf, TO BOYZ. If Boyz were nerfed and nothing else changed then yes, it would be a nerf to Orks, but seemingly the only one who even thinks someone is arguing for that in this thread is you. There's no one in here that's said that they want Ork Boyz to be nerfed and nothing else changed. No one. Not. One.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
.

Still, if you don't believe Ork Boyz need a nerf, why are you constantly complaining that BT Vanguard Vets can't kill them when they charge? If you want to make a thread about BT Vanguard Vets, do it. Don't complicate this thread with your overzealous (get it?) belief that BT are awful. Take it away and contribute to this thread or don't comment. Your very first post was entirely off topic as Kooaei was discussing Tac Marines and you decided to talk about other marines for no reason. Off topic rubbish.

A comparison of Boyz to other melee units is hardly off-topic when the discussion at hand is whether or not Ork Boyz should be nerfed. That was my entire point: the people claiming Ork Boyz are bad overlook the fact that while they may not be good enough to make Orks competetive, they're still better than the vast majority of melee units in the game. The comparison to Vanguard was to illustrate the fact that there's not a thing in the Space Marine Codex that outfights a Boy point for point, even under optimal circumstances.

Speaking of contributing to this thread, can you explain to me how arguing against points that no one has made contributes to the thread? Because no one's saying that Boyz should be nerfed and nothing else changed, and no one's saying that.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
All I'm asking for is a valid reason as to why on Earth people believe Boyz deserve a nerf.

Anecdotes aside do we have anything?

We do. If the rest of the Ork units become strong to the degree that a currently very solid Troops choice becomes oppressive, that Troops choice, Boyz, needs to be nerfed.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
All I'm asking for is a valid reason as to why on Earth people believe Boyz deserve a nerf.

Anecdotes aside do we have anything?

We do. If the rest of the Ork units become strong to the degree that a currently very solid Troops choice becomes oppressive, that Troops choice, Boyz, needs to be nerfed.

I was so close to writing an apology for misunderstanding you until you wrote this. Actually to be fair - the apology should still stand for the rest of the points and misunderstandings, so apologies.

The above however isn't even anecdotal. I don't even know what this is? A prediction? A random guess? You want to nerf Boyz if something else in the codex (that hasn't even been announced yet) gets buffed to the point of being as good as Boyz? I got a few questions on that -
Why would this magically become oppressive? Ork tournament lists are as oppressive as we can manage as all we're taking is Boyz. If they can be beaten, so can other units that become as good as them.
Why would you nerf Boyz and not the other units?
Why don't you balance based on actual results and evidence rather than something that might or might not happen?

If other units become more viable, you'll see less Boyz - that alone will be enough of a nerf to them; but to be honest, what you really need to do is remove the +1A per Boy when there's 20+ in a squad. It weakens smaller squads of boyz (Trukk Boyz, Battlewagon Boyz, etc), while making larger squads stronger - in short, it makes them harder to balance. Allow the "Warpath" power be used to make up the difference.

Also, Ork boyz shoot for beans - the only thing they're actually good at is close combat; which per GW, is the Ork armies only design point of note (well, that and Horde). They're not allowed to shoot well, have vehicles that are even close to par with other armies, or any number of things.

If there's a -1 to hit over 12", there needs to be a second version, -1 to hit within 12" - this would allow a unit to weaken nearby attackers, without negating long rage counters. This would allow an armies that have access to these traits to tailor their list to how they want to fight/counter other armies.

Also, straight up - there's going to be a "Best" melee unit - who should it belong to? What model/unit should it be? What force org chart should it sit in? Are different factions allowed to have similar models? [I would say yes, because balance is necessary.] Is there allowed to be a "best in category" (HQ, troop, elite, fast attack, heavy support, LOW) model that stands out?; I would addendum that said unit also NOT be a named character, or it throws off everything.

Are all standard troop choices expected to be balanced between shooting and close combat (say 50/50), or are some troop choices allowed to specialize versus closer opponents/farther away opponents (75-100/25-0)? [Melee vs shooting focus]

Also, Weirdboyz need to lose "Da Jump" - I love the ability and what you can do with it, but it's impeding on actually balancing close combat units, and their abilities to reach combat (speed, deep strike, survivability, etc). Will losing "Da Jump" make the army weaker? Absolutely. But it opens the door to stratagems (which can be priced different/depending on situations/units it's used on), and allows units to be designed as if they won't always be in combat Turn 1 [which is still only a near 50% chance, before accounting for the odds for "Da Jump" to even go off].

Boyz are strong - but they're not OP. At worst, the ability to take them en-masse is OP; but that's the nature of the game now, with Detachments. Which, again, means that if you take anti-armor and I only bring infantry, I better damn well win that fight, because I spent more points on "effective" models than you (in a very general sense).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
All I'm asking for is a valid reason as to why on Earth people believe Boyz deserve a nerf.

Anecdotes aside do we have anything?

We do. If the rest of the Ork units become strong to the degree that a currently very solid Troops choice becomes oppressive, that Troops choice, Boyz, needs to be nerfed.

I was so close to writing an apology for misunderstanding you until you wrote this. Actually to be fair - the apology should still stand for the rest of the points and misunderstandings, so apologies.

The above however isn't even anecdotal. I don't even know what this is? A prediction? A random guess? You want to nerf Boyz if something else in the codex (that hasn't even been announced yet) gets buffed to the point of being as good as Boyz? I got a few questions on that -
Why would this magically become oppressive? Ork tournament lists are as oppressive as we can manage as all we're taking is Boyz. If they can be beaten, so can other units that become as good as them.
Why would you nerf Boyz and not the other units?
Why don't you balance based on actual results and evidence rather than something that might or might not happen?

Apology accepted, I think we were both talking past each other, so I'll apologize back. I could've been clearer with what I meant.

Point 1: If buff units become better or new ones became available, Boyz could potentially become better than they already are. As a hypothetical (unlikely, but just for the example's sake), suppose that KFFs went back to their old version where they only needed a model in range to cover the entire unit. A single Big Mek could then cover a much wider area with an Invulnerable save, making multiple units of Ork Boyz much more survivable than today.

Point 2: Runnin on the above example, the Boyz would in this case be nerfed because they'd be the extreme outlier example for the buff in question; Nobz, MANz, and Kommandos wouldn't be as affected by such a buff. Stuff that provides a greater buff to units of greater size would by their very nature be stronger on Boyz than on other units. If such buffs became too strong in conjunction with Boyz something has to give.

Point 3: Because we don't have any data yet. This is all speculation. Orks did place second and third in that one GW tournament recently, but that's about it.

Point 236: orks are one of the funnest things to play and play against. So play orks.

So, i checked back on this thread and noticed that it kind of blew up.

If Thraka was cut in points, if new psychic powers come out giving boyz extra movement or other buffs, if stratagems come out giving boyz enhanced mobility/defense, if warlord traits come out that buff boyz wholesale, if there is a way to regenerate boy casualties to a squad, etc. There are a billion precedents already in the rules that could easily be applied to Orks, that would make Boyz just absolutely bonkers insane good. Which is pretty scary - I would say Ork Boyz are probably the best troops in the entire game.

Consider Tyranids - Kraken's hive fleet trait allowing us to roll 3d6 and pick the highest when advancing - would be MONEY on Ork Boyz. I try to steer clear of the anecdotal, but as Tyranids, i'm seriously worried about Orks.

Lol I see a lot of 'ifs'!

None of this has even happened guys. It might not/likely won't happen either. Marma above is concerned about mobility buffs on a unit that can teleport anywhere it likes with the addition of one character. Since GW have penned Orks as the "slow" race with that 5" movement I don't think we'll get more, if any movement buffs. I would hope (and pray with my little Orky heart) that GW have the sense to leave Boyz as they are and apply buffs through stratagems, psychic powers and the like to the units that currently aren't taken. Which is most of the goddamn army lol.

Can we wait until our codex comes out, we win a ton of tournaments flooding the board with 90% Boyz and generally beat all builds and kinds of armies before we preemptively nerf Orks please? Pretty please?

Ork Boyz aren't the best troop. They are all cqc offense and no defence. You give them defence and they become too expensive. They are the Orks' best troop (although FLG argues that Grots are better ).

I am not saying Ork Boyz should be nerfed.
I am not saying they should be pre-emptively nerfed.

I am saying Orks need a buff.

I am saying it is possible to make Orks a better overall army, with a wider variety of builds, while "nerfing" boyz at the same time.

Pretty sure most Ork players would prefer that. So they don't have to bring 120+ to be competitive, and can actually bring some of the cool stuff, like Battlewagons, Deffkoptas, Bikers etc. Being 100% honest if they made Orks into an army with multiple viable builds that aren't "spammy" i would play them in a heartbeat.

I don't agree that Boyz are the best troops in the game. Both Khorne and Tzeentch Daemons have seriously powerful troops and Guardsmen are better than Boyz as well.

On the "no defence" though, you get 3 Boyz for one Chainaxe Berzerker. The Boyz have anywhere from twice to three times the attacks (!) and better resistance to almost everything, with the glaring exception of Morale killing off Boyz if you blast a bunch of them away. The reason the Berzerker is seen as a competetive unit is because they have a way to get into CC fast and reliably through Alpha Legion infiltration shenanigans. Suppose Orks got "Sneaky Gitz!" as a stratagem that allowed you to infiltrate Boyz in a similar manner and all hell would break loose.

I think you can safely say that the consensus seems to be that "no, Orks currently do not need any nerfs", but that some of us worry over how the Codex is going to buff Boyz without making them completely ludicrous in comparison to most other units.

I doubt Boyz will be nerfed by GW, right now just wait patiently for the codex, WHILE also yelling at GW "make orkz not gak to play".

If Boyz become something like conscripts just wait for the inevitable nerf that will come.

@Marma Bro you said this - "The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit." Toned down = nerf, no?

I'm an Ork player and I've been relatively active on here since I joined. I've been particularly active (as you might imagine) with threads concerning Orks, particularly the huuuuge Ork tactica thread.

I think I have a decent idea what Ork players want and it's for our other units to be brought up to the same level of effectiveness as Boyz. Boyz aren't OP peeps. They're decent. I don't think if our other units were at that level the army as a whole would be OP.

Anyway, is the answer to the topic's question a "no" then? Do we all agree?

Also, if you're even slightly interested in Orks I think it's all over for you. Sooner or later you'll feel da call of Gork (or Mork).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
On the "no defence" though, you get 3 Boyz for one Chainaxe Berzerker. The Boyz have anywhere from twice to three times the attacks (!) and better resistance to almost everything, with the glaring exception of Morale killing off Boyz if you blast a bunch of them away. The reason the Berzerker is seen as a competetive unit is because they have a way to get into CC fast and reliably through Alpha Legion infiltration shenanigans. Suppose Orks got "Sneaky Gitz!" as a stratagem that allowed you to infiltrate Boyz in a similar manner and all hell would break loose.

I think you can safely say that the consensus seems to be that "no, Orks currently do not need any nerfs", but that some of us worry over how the Codex is going to buff Boyz without making them completely ludicrous in comparison to most other units.

Let's worry about Shrodinger's Orks when they appear shall we?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
@Marma Bro you said this - "The goal is balance, and Orks overall need a boost. When they receive this boost, boyz should be toned down maybe a bit." Toned down = nerf, no?

I say toned down maybe. It depends on the buffs they receive. But a nerf to me means an overall decrease in effectiveness. Boyz could be adjusted so that they were more expensive PPM, but still overall become a stronger unit.

I feel like i've been perfectly clear. I guess not.

Again let's concern ourselves with possibly over buffed Boyz when hell freezes over and it actually happens huh (this is a knock on GW, who have never made Orks particularly competitive, not you)?

For now there is no evidence to suggest that Boyz are too strong externally. They are definitely too strong internally though.

Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?

 lolman1c wrote:
Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?

I doubt anything in the game can handle Boyz in a point-for-point melee duel.