Switch Theme:

Should Orks be nerfed?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






It's definitely your bad look

"Shoot the ugly one!"

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






1 game with snipers (2 character ones) I lost all my hqs by turn 2. Then in 1 game I saw vs mostly only snipers thr guy murdered the elite army. XD might just be me though as i say.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





So the answer to killing HQs? Snipers. Whether it be an Assassin or other groups of scouts.

Anecdotal evidence, my friend has sniped my Warlord Big Mek off the table with scouts by turn 2 with 10 Space Marine Scouts. Sometimes before that with one lucky volley. They would then take out my Weirdboy and Waaagh Banner. That makes back their points.

So the answer to killing Ork Boy blobs? Sheer number of shots. Best if AP -1 and S5 or Greater.

Anecdotal evidence, 3 Inceptors with double assault Bolters throw 18 shots then add in the rerolls they can get from being near a Captain. Wounding on 3+ I ended up with 15 boyz left in the squad.

Too long didn’t read? Start taking bigger squads of guys and stop whining about point efficiency.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/06 15:13:25


 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

 Blackie wrote:




What are you talking about? The basic ork boy should definitely have more attacks that imperium CC units, which are usually clumsy dudes with huge armors. Orks live for punching people, they'd defintely deserve tons of low strength no ap attacks. We're talking about max 4 attacks per boy without HQs bonuses. Blood claws have 3 attacks each on the charge. Drukhari wyches have 3 attacks each with the drug, which is the standard drug a player should give them, genestealers have 3 base plus 1 if the unit is 10+ models. 3-4 attacks each are quite standard for close combat oriented troops that actually are supposed to be able to fight and have little shooting or no shooting at all.


so your fine with Howling Banshees having 3 base attacks and Striking Scorpions should get 4?

Because that is the only way they will be worth it...ofc that will just murder any elite army with those power swords....so back to rock paper scissors meta gaming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we go back to the days that most models rolled 1 die for an attack.

Picking up 40 dice, rerolling a half dozen ones and then rolling 20+ to wound just get silly and that is like the average unit in the game.

We can save 40 min per game if we rolled like a 1/4 of the dice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/06 15:18:23


 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in ie
Grovelin' Grot




Ireland

Should orks be nerfed?..... you gitz are having a laugh right!?

Currently orks are a one trick pony, spam loads of ork boyz. Straight away I can think of one unit that will each 30 boyz and then some, but let us first see how orks have already been nerfed by the core rules let alone a codex.

1. shooting: Orks shooting is optimistic at the best of times, like everything else with orks quantity is quality, sadly every git who plays marines I have currently come up again has -1 to hit. Going from a 1in3 chance to 1in6 chance is Rubbish!

2. templates gone: This was a massive mistake by GW in my eyes, it would make it easier to deal with massive mobz if they weren't so easily hosed down by everything. The only armies really screwed by it would be the kind that have really bad bs........

3.Twin linked: Whats that you say, double shots. why I don't mind If I do. This was a great buff to armies with lots of previous twin linked options, but not so good for armies without them, say like... I don't know....Orks!

I could not be bothered going through a whole llist of things, but by now you get the idea

And finally to answer any of you Imperial Zoggers out there, just bring some guard allies with you for orks hordes.
One leman russ with punisher cannon puts out 49 shots a turn, then you laugh if he tries to charge your tank.
Let the Commence!!!

Orks is best! 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





Georgia

Pretty just echoing here, but boyz are strong now because the rest of our codex is garbage. Just tone down boyz slightly while buffing literally every other unit in our codex, and we'll be good. I have lot of mechanized units, and sadly I know whenever I bring them it's going to be an uphill battle because I haven't brought 180 boyz with me.

"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.

6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Australia

 Jidmah wrote:

We already have +1 to hit which is vastly superior to re-rolling 1, and it's considered to just barely be worth its points. Most lists in tournaments don't field it.
....

I should've clarified that I play Orks, if it means that Boyz need to take a strength hit to see Orks getting some more free stuff as a whole I'd be glad to take it.


Like tau and tyranids got, right?
I think GW has already realized that army-wide -1 to hit is bogus.

Tyranids instead got a permanent +1 cover save which is *almost* the same, and has there been leaks for Tau that I don't know about?

Once again, if it takes Boyz to be weaker to see a "Exhaust Cloud" rule on bikes I'd let them take the beat stick.



What buffs do you think are worth not firing off an almost guaranteed D6 smite? Warpath worse unless you buff a mob at full strength.

Ideally the 'this buff isnt worth it' problem will be fixed in the codex, and if takes Boyz to be weaker for interesting buffs... You kinda get the point


People know so little about orks and yet call for nerfs, it feels like they are trolling. .

It's a design space problem, a 'Large' horde unit with lots of attacks is immensely multiplied by any buffs. Theory craft with me - what kind of buffs (mechanically) would you throw on a squad of 5 nobs instead of a squad of 30 boyz?




   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Eonfuzz wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

We already have +1 to hit which is vastly superior to re-rolling 1, and it's considered to just barely be worth its points. Most lists in tournaments don't field it.
....

I should've clarified that I play Orks, if it means that Boyz need to take a strength hit to see Orks getting some more free stuff as a whole I'd be glad to take it.

Unless boyz get defensive buffs, there is no need to tone them down. Top lists are already bringing the absolute maximum number of boyz, unless some offensive buff is ridiculously overpowered (better than +1 to hit), any buff to the army would lead to less boyz, not more.
Also note that orks are merely doing well in tournaments, not winning or even dominating them.


Like tau and tyranids got, right?
I think GW has already realized that army-wide -1 to hit is bogus.

Tyranids instead got a permanent +1 cover save which is *almost* the same, and has there been leaks for Tau that I don't know about?

You might want to do the math on the +1 cover thing. It's also not +1 to cover, but simply getting cover, plus you lose it when advancing, which quite a number of tyranid units want to do.
And yes, you missed a dakka member leaking all the tau "klans".

Once again, if it takes Boyz to be weaker to see a "Exhaust Cloud" rule on bikes I'd let them take the beat stick.

Ideally the 'this buff isnt worth it' problem will be fixed in the codex, and if takes Boyz to be weaker for interesting buffs... You kinda get the point

Why on earth would you need to nerf one unit in order to buff another? You can only spend your points once, either on boyz or on bikes.
Boyz do not get better by other units getting better. Green tide does not get better by other units gettting better.
"The point" is that you (and a lot of other people, don't take this personal) think that you can somehow take other great ork units, add them to a green tide army and have a better army. This does not work. At all. The more toyz you take, the less boyz you will have, the weaker the "horde overload" effect will be that keeps our army afloat right now.

Theory craft with me - what kind of buffs (mechanically) would you throw on a squad of 5 nobs instead of a squad of 30 boyz?

Easy solution would be stratagems that can only target nobz, units with 10 models or less, models with power-klaws etc.
Or just don't add any new buffs for combat. Between +1A from Thrakka and Warpath, +1 to hit from banner and the Waaagh! aura, we already have pretty much everything we need. Why add another?

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






If you pit an even amunt of points in ork boyz against tactical marines, marines win 9 out of 10 times. How op is that?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/07 08:40:21


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

I jumped in here and was quite surprised to see so many positive things being said about orks. I play them once in a while and I have about 149 models on the table. I basically play 90 boyz plus 32 Gretchen, and then a big mean Nob Bikerz unit and some Lootaz to peel away tough stuff early. Add Warboss and Bigmek. Its an incredibly simple and fun list to play. Stuff dies in droves so we both feel like we're getting work done. I usually have lost about 3/4 of it by games end.

Orks are just quintessentially fun to play and play against in my opinion. I don't do it a ton but I always enjoy it and if the clean up wasnt such a chore I'd probably do it even more.


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 admironheart wrote:


so your fine with Howling Banshees having 3 base attacks and Striking Scorpions should get 4?

Because that is the only way they will be worth it...ofc that will just murder any elite army with those power swords....so back to rock paper scissors meta gaming.



I'd be totally fine with that if eldar shooting and psychic phase get a significant nerf. Eldar are already top tiers and don't need other improved units in a codex that already have a huge variety of choice.

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






... which is kind of the same argument why people want boyz to be nerfed.

Eldar deserve useful banshees and scorpions as much as we deserve useful lootaz and weirdboyz.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 koooaei wrote:
If you pit an even amunt of points in ork boyz against tactical marines, marines win 9 out of 10 times. How op is that?


It's so OP that it isn't true.

Boyz also beat their own points in any CC unit in the Marine Codex when the Orks get charged. You can charge 10 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans into 30 Boyz and the Boyz will win on average.

Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
If you pit an even amunt of points in ork boyz against tactical marines, marines win 9 out of 10 times. How op is that?


It's so OP that it isn't true.

Boyz also beat their own points in any CC unit in the Marine Codex when the Orks get charged. You can charge 10 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans into 30 Boyz and the Boyz will win on average.

Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.


Let’s take note that Ork Boyz at size 30 have to foot slog or use da jump. If they footslog you have all those wonderful shots against a 6+ armor save for at least a turn or two. Hell heavy Bolters will remove that pesky 6+ and kill even more. Space Marines aren’t Dedicated Melee, I almost lost a squad of 30 boys to Assault Marines, when shooting was taken into account.

If they Da Jump, remember to screen your lines to avoid 9 inch charges.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/07 12:26:38


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
[
6 pts a model.
M 5" (is there a slower troop?)




Pretty sure deathguard are M4. And necrons are M5 as well.
So yes, there is a slower troop

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/07 12:40:10


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





And here I thought the OP was joking around...
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I had a game not too long ago, where I had 90+ boys, 20 stormboys, weirdboy and ghaz. I also had some other stuff like morkanaut, and one other thing I can't remember. But in the end I got tabled by turn 4. Opponent took chaos space marines with units of 20 and shot a unit off the board basically every turn. He kept them in range of the chaos Lord. Additionally he charged me with 10 bikes, and it doesn't matter that I had 4 attacks each because I ended up wounding them on 5s, after that turn they were below 20 models and lost an additional attack each.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
If you pit an even amunt of points in ork boyz against tactical marines, marines win 9 out of 10 times. How op is that?


It's so OP that it isn't true.

Boyz also beat their own points in any CC unit in the Marine Codex when the Orks get charged. You can charge 10 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans into 30 Boyz and the Boyz will win on average.

Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.


Let’s take note that Ork Boyz at size 30 have to foot slog or use da jump. If they footslog you have all those wonderful shots against a 6+ armor save for at least a turn or two.


Which only thins down the Boyz, it doesn't change the fact that the Marines inevitably die once the Orks hit their lines.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Space Marines aren’t Dedicated Melee, I almost lost a squad of 30 boys to Assault Marines, when shooting was taken into account.


Today I learned that double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans aren't dedicated melee units.

Seriously, the only "dedicated melee" army in the game is Khorne Daemons, and even they have shooting. There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge.

Ork Boyz are good. They're just not good enough to single-handedly drag the rest of the Ork army with them as it currently stands.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Boyz also beat their own points in any CC unit in the Marine Codex when the Orks get charged. You can charge 10 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans into 30 Boyz and the Boyz will win on average.

Welcome to 8th edition, where units not equipped to handle horde units suck at doing so. Those vanguard vets would also lose combat to a unit of 30 pink horrors or conscripts, neither has any combat ability to write home about.

Vanilla Marines are just not good at throwing tons of close combat attacks, which you need to shred a horde unit. That's what hurricane bolters and assault cannons are for.

Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.

I don't think that anyone is actually contesting that - what boyz actually have over tactical marines is 30 wounds, which means that you need to hit and wound at least 15 times in one turn to make the unit go away (including moral casualties), while a unit of MEQ gets mowed down by three guys with plasma guns or blown up by a single LRBT.

That's the sole reason why boyz, horrors, pox walkers, cultists and other similar troops are good and tactical/chaos marines, rubric marines, strike squads and other elite-ish troops are not. While most units suffer from both high quality and high quantity of attacks, cheap horde units are basically immune to quality and only care for quantity.

Bottom line, if an army would bring 3 units of boyz (maybe even in battewagon or trukks) instead of 8+ (counting kommandoz and stormboyz as boyz), the whole strength of boyz would go away as any decent army can easily delete a unit of 30 boyz per turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pretty sure deathguard are M4. And necrons are M5 as well.
So yes, there is a slower troop


Pox walkers are 4", plague marines are 5". There is a DG character with an aura for rolling 2d6, pick highest for advances, so they tend to be faster than boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge

I wouldn't call 41 S4 AP0 attacks on WS3+ "loaded out excusively for horde cleaning". There is a decent chance you might fail to kill 10 GEQ with that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/07 13:35:51


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Jidmah wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge

I wouldn't call 41 S4 AP0 attacks on WS3+ "loaded out excusively for horde cleaning". There is a decent chance you might fail to kill 10 GEQ with that.


Hence why they're bad, but they're still the best anti-horde melee option available to Vanilla Marines.

 Jidmah wrote:


Note that this doesn't mean that I think Orks should be nerfed, or even that Boyz should be, but you really need to accept that Ork Boyz are a pretty phenomenal Troops choice compared to what most other Codices get. It's just that most everything else in the book is rubbish.

I don't think that anyone is actually contesting that - what boyz actually have over tactical marines is 30 wounds, which means that you need to hit and wound at least 15 times in one turn to make the unit go away (including moral casualties), while a unit of MEQ gets mowed down by three guys with plasma guns or blown up by a single LRBT.

That's the sole reason why boyz, horrors, pox walkers, cultists and other similar troops are good and tactical/chaos marines, rubric marines, strike squads and other elite-ish troops are not. While most units suffer from both high quality and high quantity of attacks, cheap horde units are basically immune to quality and only care for quantity.

Bottom line, if an army would bring 3 units of boyz (maybe even in battewagon or trukks) instead of 8+ (counting kommandoz and stormboyz as boyz), the whole strength of boyz would go away as any decent army can easily delete a unit of 30 boyz per turn.
.


That's assuming that the anti-horde firepower wouldn't be needed to kill the other units after they get buffed, but that's a fair point.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pretty sure deathguard are M4. And necrons are M5 as well.
So yes, there is a slower troop


Pox walkers are 4", plague marines are 5". There is a DG character with an aura for rolling 2d6, pick highest for advances, so they tend to be faster than boyz.




Huh, strange. They were M4 in Dark Millenium, iirc. Must have changed it in the codex.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge

I wouldn't call 41 S4 AP0 attacks on WS3+ "loaded out excusively for horde cleaning". There is a decent chance you might fail to kill 10 GEQ with that.


Hence why they're bad, but they're still the best anti-horde melee option available to Vanilla Marines.


I know you're a templar player, but currently nothing in the vanilla codex is good at fighting anything in melee unless it's a character or a dread.
Just drive/fly/walk/waddle your tons of bolter shots platform of choice close to the horde unit you want gone and unload.
The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




MI

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Huh, strange. They were M4 in Dark Millenium, iirc. Must have changed it in the codex.


That would have been the Lord of Contagion. Death Guard in terminator armor are M4, but standard power armor is M5
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ive won a few tournaments with my orkz, this latest one I remember the most clearly so I will rehash the jist of lists as best I can.

First off, My list was 90 Kommandos and 90 Boyz and some weirdboyz and minor stuff like some stormboyz and what not.

My first opponent was an Eldar Player who brought LOTS of anti-vehicle weapons and was extremely ticked off he drew a horde player for Game 1. I was able to kill everything but his stupid vehicles which boyz just can't kill. I had all the objectives and had Slay the warlord and linebreaker, he had First blood (Go figure) Major victory for me.

2nd Game was against a SM Player who brought nothing but tanks and dreadz and the minimum number of infantry to make the list legal. I tied up all his vehicles turn 1 with Kommandos and then held every objective while he tried his hardest to get his expensive land raiders (he had 2) out of CC with my Cheap throw away infantry. The game ended with him mostly intact and a lot of my boyz dead but I had all the objectives, first blood and slay the warlord as well as Linebreaker. Major Victory.

Game 3 was against a Chaos player who brought 3 Demon Princes and a plethora of Demonic Vehicles. I Killed his Demons with Boyz/kommandos and weirdboyz and tied everything else up in CC. I had all the objectives but 1 and had all other markers again. Major victory.


Do you know why I won so much against those 3 different lists? Because most of their shooting was Anti-Tank and did well against everyone else who brought tons of Vehicles but did piss poor against 220 Boyz style models. Go figure a list that features more Lascannons then Heavy bolters is going to do poorly against a horde.


I also played a game over the weekend against a SM Gunline who brought Asscan Razorbacks and lots of bolters/stormbolters/hurricane bolters. I conceded turn 3 because my mobz were obliterated. He didn't know he was facing me as we just decided to play at the store after my scheduled game.

Boyz do not need a nerf, They are doing well because they are anti-meta and it annoys players like the ones in my tournament because they want their tournament list to be a TAC list when in reality its anti-vehicle and anti-elite/MC.

If my Speed freakz were viable I would gladly stop playing this horde list because its slow and it annoys the hell out of me to move that many models every game, but as it stands, 1 Warbikers costs as much as 4.5 Boyz and my DeffKoptas cost more then 10-15 Boyz each (depending how you equip them.) So why would I take Speed freakz when they are worse in every way to Boyz with a weirdboy list?


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Jidmah wrote:

The Space Marine's way to handle hordes simply is not combat. There are tons of units that do an incredible job at wiping out boyz at rapid fire range, so you're basically just complaining about not being able to do it they way you want.


I am, but then so is everyone who doesn't want to play with 180 Boyz.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Which only thins down the Boyz, it doesn't change the fact that the Marines inevitably die once the Orks hit their lines.

...

Today I learned that double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans aren't dedicated melee units.

Seriously, the only "dedicated melee" army in the game is Khorne Daemons, and even they have shooting. There is no excuse for a melee unit loaded out exclusively for horde cleaning to lose to an equal amount of points in the unit they're supposed to counter when they get the charge.

Ork Boyz are good. They're just not good enough to single-handedly drag the rest of the Ork army with them as it currently stands.


Thinning down boyz is what you need to do! Thin the ranks and then destroy the left over pieces. Rinse repeat. If your worried about extra attacks whittle down the ork squads down passed 20 Boyz so they don't get the extra attack. Don't advance and fire, instead retreat and fire, let the Orks come to you.

Math hammering it out for Vanguard Vets with One Chainsword and Bolt Pistol. You lose more points than kill if there are more than 17 Ork Boyz. Similarly if you do double chainsword you will eventually even out against a squad of 30 Boyz. So how do you combat this? Thin out the Ork Boyz with range weapons before you charge!

And be sure to take buff HQs like LTs and Captains who let you re-roll. That's where Imperium bests Orks.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Dude, I know how to play against Orks. What I'm saying is that Ork Boyz aren't that bad.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
If you pit an even amunt of points in ork boyz against tactical marines, marines win 9 out of 10 times. How op is that?

It's so OP that it isn't true.


It IS true. We've tested it. We can perform a quick test with you in tabletop simulator if you want. So that you'll see it yourself. Also, marines didn't even use chapter tactics. And there was no cover involved. When there is cover, orks don't even have this 1/10 of a chance.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/07 16:02:05


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

fe40k wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Orks are an army that is designed around having lots of Boyz. The fact that they can essentially bring only boyz and still be competitive is a testament to how good boyz actually are.


No, its testament to how powerful skew lists are - which are an inherent problem/design of 8th edition and the way Detachments work.


So build an all daemonettes list and do as well as Ork Boyz. It's just a skew list right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/07 16:56:46


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Orks usually dominate my CSMs due to sheer numbers.

Still don't think Boys need nerfing. If anything, I feel like they deserve another attack for footslogging, a la Berzerkers. Just to make it fair.

If that's not going to happen, I would improve the transports / Kans. They die way too easily. And I would improve Lootas / Flash Gitz, either by taking down their price or increasing their BS. I get it that they are costed to reflect unique aspects of Orks, but there's just not enough shooting in general. Makes you wonder why they care about guns at all.

   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: